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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Breathing
Mork Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:11:00 -
[571]
At the very least Wrangler, surely CCP should answer the questions people are asking.
Making such a big change and then not even bothering to turn up to defend it and explain whats going on is lame. Really lame.
Theres a lot of very legitimate questions that deserve answering.
People have REAL concerns about areas of the game that will be effected by this.
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DRMALIKIA
United Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:13:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Breathing At the very least Wrangler, surely CCP should answer the questions people are asking.
Making such a big change and then not even bothering to turn up to defend it and explain whats going on is lame. Really lame.
Theres a lot of very legitimate questions that deserve answering.
People have REAL concerns about areas of the game that will be effected by this.
LOL no one is around to respond they moved them all to do more work on the "Need for Speed" iniative. Or how about the "Factional Warfare"? Or wait yet, even better "Contracts".
/MAJOR SARCASIM
CCP RESPOND PLEASE! |
Breathing
Mork Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:17:00 -
[573]
Originally by: DRMALIKIA
Originally by: Breathing At the very least Wrangler, surely CCP should answer the questions people are asking.
Making such a big change and then not even bothering to turn up to defend it and explain whats going on is lame. Really lame.
Theres a lot of very legitimate questions that deserve answering.
People have REAL concerns about areas of the game that will be effected by this.
LOL no one is around to respond they moved them all to do more work on the "Need for Speed" iniative. Or how about the "Factional Warfare"? Or wait yet, even better "Contracts".
/MAJOR SARCASIM
Unfortunately, I suspect youre right. Posting like that on a thread thats run to 20 odd pages in a few hours and been summarily ignored is more of a dying last gasp than anything thats expected to yield a result.
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Shirei
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:19:00 -
[574]
Edited by: Shirei on 21/08/2007 22:23:01 Wonderful.. now even more people will end up going to Jita/The Forge to sell/buy their stuff because you still can't bid on auctions or accept contracts in different regions.
Worst thing to have happened to the EVE market in the last 4 years tbh.
Third-party websites won't really help, they'll never reach the required amount of registered visitors to make them anything close to worthwhile for selling.
If contracts worked properly, it would be fine, but as long as they don't: - allow bidding/accepting them in different regions - allow searching for groups of items rather than only individual names - allow searching some kind of history - allow updating/lowering the price after a contract has been started (without incurring yet another 0.5-1% fee) - allow specifying a bid increment on auctions
They will be nothing more than a disappointing stop-gap solution for player trading.
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Greme
Amarr Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:20:00 -
[575]
I don't even use the forums and I can see how bad an Idea this is. So many others do, it's not forums OR the contract system (though i'm sure people would probably choose forums if it were), you CAN have both. Surely there is not such great a load created by the trade forums that they need removal...
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War Bear
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:21:00 -
[576]
You're closing down the trading forum because you think your "solution" is going to take up all that slack. You couldn't be further from the truth. Just because a third party decides to step up to the plate (thanks Chribba) doesn't let you off the hook. There is ZERO need for you guys to remove that forum. People will still use the contract system as intended. Other items and services that can't be covered in the contract system or are cost prohibitive (mothership sale anyone?) are up ****s creek without a paddle.
Want to remove something? How about Out of Pod Experience? Doesn't have anything to do with the game but its there. How about Eve Technology Lab or Localization Development and Discussion? They get nearly jack all for traffic, nuke them ffs. Don't wave the bloody forum nerf bat around on some of the higher traffic channels because you think its superfluous.
@#$%#@^ BEAR SMASH ....
Everything is funny with the Benny Hill theme song |
Sihar
Sihars Little Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:23:00 -
[577]
I agree with the many previous posters: a very bad decision which is completely against the interests of your playerbase. All the bad reasons are already summed up.
Please think about this decision again!
There is no shame in making a mistake. The only shame is in sticking to this mistake after discovering that it was a mistake.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:30:00 -
[578]
Official response to your customers from the community representative would be nice. You know, after 22 pages of posts and a universal "wtf?"
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Virtuozzo
IVC Consortium INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:34:00 -
[579]
I shouldn't say it, but I can't help it. I love EVE.
In recent past we've seen an increase of the pace and the severity of screwups, both out of a severely increasing complexity of the product on sale here, and because of a sharply rising trend and refocus in marketing, management and communication methods and styles - internal to the corporation and external towards its customer base, which in commercial venture terms would get flagged with "withdraw investments / interests".
Here's a brilliant product, with such an immersion and exposure factor that you do not need to dive into low level crap like viral marketing setups, exposure deals, technology acquisitions or the likes. As a company CCP have always had a strong focus on their product, and their customer base - but through growing pains and detachment both for internal and external processes both the focus and the affinity with product affairs are gone.
Again we see an event which could have been not just handled better, but which should have been handled better. It isn't about moving from volunteer structures to internalised structures (or even who you are moving those to btw), but it is how you handle that. This is commerce. Corporations have migration processes for such things, particularly to minimise impact for both employees and customers. Still, this is just one angle in just those debate, and there's a myriad of facets applying here.
In slightly less then recent past it's been clearly demonstrated how perception rules in game affairs. Sad but true, perception also rules out of game affairs. EVE is a game, and a product. I'm quite sure the recently acquired economist regardless of economical school of thought can provide the basis of economics: trust. Lacking communications, uncaring attitude, detachment from product affairs, look at the course of this thread - already subscribers are making one reference after the other to other commercial MMORPG products which, well, went shall we say .. boobies up. Not because of being bad in concept, or implementation, but because of disregard of trends and subscriber behaviour, because of the big divide between the "want" for the state of a product and the "actual" direction of the product use, and because of the intrinsical need for balance between quality & satisfaction factors and cost/benefit parameters.
Let's stop beating around the bush. The amalgam of changes to communication style, the amalgam of abrupt single focus changes to product dynamics, the amalgam of commercial ventures currently being undertaken in parallel and in cooperation .. EVE as a product, is at a turning point.
At every commercial phase of product management you float in that balance scale - ideally between well defined and planned for margins up and down the scale. When you show signs of moving from one excess to the other, that is where the product line starts to break, applying to internal corporate processes, external customer behaviour and continuation of account capitalisation and product evolution alike.
Virtuozzo
Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" *snip* Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug |
Kirex
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:35:00 -
[580]
wtf?! You're taking down the trade forums because you think contracts will suffice? Have you devs ever USED the contracts system?
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Moraguth
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:39:00 -
[581]
Since you took the time to add color and lay out your issues, i'll take the time to show you how the game is good already. Except for the supercaps, all the issues i've seen listed can be solved in game, easily!
Originally by: Pallidum Treponema This is the most ridiculous idea I've heard in ages.
Problem 1: A majority of buy orders in the contract system are scams. Sellers are therefore reluctant to sell to buy-orders in the contract system. Even if they were so inclined, the amount of scam buy-orders make it difficult to locate the ones that are valid.
I sort by price. ALL of the scams, don't even show up on the list till the very bottom of the page.
Quote:
Problem 2: The contract system offers no way of advertising services. Maintainers of website hosting, killboards, research services etc will have no means to advertise their services.
Most of these things are corporate/alliance "assets" so to speak. There's a handy corp/alliance forum for all those needs.
Quote:
Problem 3: The contract system offers no way of setting up recurring orders. A corporation that wishes to purchase for instance 10 million units of tritanium per month will have no way of easily finding a supplier.
Contracts and open market are viewable by everyone. If you put a WTB order up at a decent price (or hell, even a not so decent price) you WILL get your order filled. If it's not getting filled, your price probably sucks, and the magic of capitalism comes into play very nicely.
Quote:
Problem 4: The contract system offers no way of establishing the reliability of the seller......
Well, the handy thing about the market/contracts is that the money is already in the system. So is the item. If you see a listing, you KNOW that the item/money is there because the game has taken it. In fact, it is MORE reliable than a forum, because a person on the forums can decide to turn bad, or sell their character, or whatever. With the market/contracts your purchase is guaranteed.
Quote:
Problem 5: The contract system offers no way of advertising multiple items or services. A supplier of for instance freighters and components will have no way of saying "I can sell all four kinds of freighters"....
Well, if he can sell all 4 kinds of freighters, put them on the market. Put them up on contract too so people can see your goods across the universe.
Quote:
Problem 6: While all of the above can be solved by third party websites, outside of the control of CCP, that will be frequented by FAR less people than those who access the eve-online.com forums, this ALSO means that any sales of illegal items, such as those aquired through macro isk farming, account hacking or other means will be harder for CCP to monitor and take action against.
3rd party forums aren't necessary and not CCP's problem, that's how i feel about it. And they already exist, this isn't going to change their business at all.
Quote:
These are just the problems I can identify straight away. ....
Sorry, I had to cut short a bunch of your statements, but I read them all before I replied. Yes, I know there are a few things that can't be covered in other forums or on the current system (ie motherships... that needs to be fixed ASAP), but removing those forums won't be the end of the world. In fact, it'll make the eve marketplace a more fair and ballanced place to do business. I shouldn't HAVE to look OOG in some forum to get a good deal on things.
Okay, this last part is going to sound insulting, and I'm sorry for that, but I have to say it. Alot of the whining i'm seeing here sounds alot like the people i know who still think windows 98 is the best OS out there and that upgrading is a horrible idea. Get with it, move on, join the rest of society.
That only applies to a few of you, not all.
To the rest, please just give it a chance.
Quote:
good game |
Nerune
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:43:00 -
[582]
You can't browse the contract system aimlessly. I'd miss that a lot. How many times has everyone here opened up the trade forums just to see whats there?
Try that with contracts! if you don't already know what you're looking for you'll never find it. Many of the threads in the forums would takes hundreds or thousands of individual contracts.
Contracts != forums
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AlleyKat
White-Noise Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:44:00 -
[583]
disagree
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Breathing
Mork Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:47:00 -
[584]
Moraguth, ok a few good points. But theres a lot of other stuff thats completely ignored, as you know.
The system to replace the forum needs to be fully in place BEFORE the forum is closed. And its very obvious that it isnt. Theres huge gaps, as 22 pages worth of replies are going to great lengths to point out.
... and dont knock win98...
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Moraguth
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:48:00 -
[585]
Oh, and another thing...
Alot of the whines seem to be saying the same 'ol "have you ever used the contract system??!?!?!!" and all that BS. My question to the complainers is "have you?". It's easy, I promise.
Scams? So easily spottable (visible?) now, it's ********. That's a good thing.
Easy to setup? yes. That's another good thing.
Ummm.... can sell anything? Not quite, but that can be fixed, and people will adapt easily. Point for them, but escrow couldn't sell those things either, so whatever (i'm taking half a point back for that one) Laggy? Nope. Buggy? Nope. Confusing? Maybe for the first 2 contracts you set up, after that, you're golden. Or, just ask for someone to help you along.
I'm sure you'll all say I'm wrong, but I do alot of business with the contracts system. You don't have to log into a forum to find your particular thread and check up on it regularly, it all happens in the game *bonus*.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:51:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Nerune You can't browse the contract system aimlessly. I'd miss that a lot. How many times has everyone here opened up the trade forums just to see whats there?
Try that with contracts! if you don't already know what you're looking for you'll never find it. Many of the threads in the forums would takes hundreds or thousands of individual contracts.
Contracts != forums
I do it ALL the time.
Sometimes I look for ships, sometimes I just browse.
Seriously, just set it to simple view (i hate the other views) and sort by price. You know the general price of the things you want to browse, and there ya go. Hell, You could even put price filters on and go from there, 2 clicks and you're browsing the entire galaxy.
<borat voice> very nice </borat voice>
good game |
ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:56:00 -
[587]
wrangler lets apply logic to the issue, if there was no need for trading forums they would be un-used, think we can safely say that wasn't happening. Contracts are in no way as flexible as a forum setup is.
Forcing users to suddenly change from what was a perfectly acceptable current setup to one they don't feel meets there needs will just aggravate people. Because of the closing of the trade forums people will find alternatives outside of the game such as chribba's eve-live, where there isn't the horde of eve-mod's to dissuade those that aren't so scrupulous, which will lead to a large number of petitions which wouldn't have occurred otherwise with no adequate way for ccp to check evidence.
I honestly don't see the point of doing this, there's no advantage to be gained by closing the forums infact your probably adding more server load with people been forced to contracts. Can't browse and buy while at the office, you have to login to the game to check if so and so item is available. Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
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Rugs
Dragon Highlords
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:59:00 -
[588]
What a stupid move from CCP! Seems that everything CCP should handle is handled by Chribba, CCP should be sending some paychecks his way if they aren't already :)
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Freewheeling
N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:03:00 -
[589]
popsicle *****az froze their brains over.
Stay away from the trade forum Cha'mone!
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Sonic Katana
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:03:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Virtuozzo I shouldn't say it, but I can't help it. I love EVE.
In recent past we've seen an increase of the pace and the severity of screwups, both out of a severely increasing complexity of the product on sale here, and because of a sharply rising trend and refocus in marketing, management and communication methods and styles - internal to the corporation and external towards its customer base, which in commercial venture terms would get flagged with "withdraw investments / interests".
Here's a brilliant product, with such an immersion and exposure factor that you do not need to dive into low level crap like viral marketing setups, exposure deals, technology acquisitions or the likes. As a company CCP have always had a strong focus on their product, and their customer base - but through growing pains and detachment both for internal and external processes both the focus and the affinity with product affairs are gone.
Again we see an event which could have been not just handled better, but which should have been handled better. It isn't about moving from volunteer structures to internalised structures (or even who you are moving those to btw), but it is how you handle that. This is commerce. Corporations have migration processes for such things, particularly to minimise impact for both employees and customers. Still, this is just one angle in just those debate, and there's a myriad of facets applying here.
In slightly less then recent past it's been clearly demonstrated how perception rules in game affairs. Sad but true, perception also rules out of game affairs. EVE is a game, and a product. I'm quite sure the recently acquired economist regardless of economical school of thought can provide the basis of economics: trust. Lacking communications, uncaring attitude, detachment from product affairs, look at the course of this thread - already subscribers are making one reference after the other to other commercial MMORPG products which, well, went shall we say .. boobies up. Not because of being bad in concept, or implementation, but because of disregard of trends and subscriber behaviour, because of the big divide between the "want" for the state of a product and the "actual" direction of the product use, and because of the intrinsical need for balance between quality & satisfaction factors and cost/benefit parameters.
Let's stop beating around the bush. The amalgam of changes to communication style, the amalgam of abrupt single focus changes to product dynamics, the amalgam of commercial ventures currently being undertaken in parallel and in cooperation .. EVE as a product, is at a turning point.
At every commercial phase of product management you float in that balance scale - ideally between well defined and planned for margins up and down the scale. When you show signs of moving from one excess to the other, that is where the product line starts to break, applying to internal corporate processes, external customer behaviour and continuation of account capitalisation and product evolution alike.
erm wtf are you on about? can't u just keep something simple and say bad idea or good idea?
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Delusion 'Fel
Minmatar Nefarious Ratiocinations Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:05:00 -
[591]
Edited by: Delusion ''Fel on 21/08/2007 23:07:10
I can appreciate that im posting a bit late here, and i doubt anyone will read or even care about my post, but ill write it and hope :S
Like many folks here, i work for a living. I spent 8 hours a day, in an office, and spend most of it bored.
However with the trade forums i had something to do. I could browse for trades outside of the game environment, make a few bids, and purchase a few items that id then race home to collect later that evening.
with the trade forums gone, ive effectively lost 40 hours game play a week. I know it wasnt "in game" using the client and all that, but it was the next best thing and well tbh i paid for that 40 hrs gameplay along with all the others with my standard subs right?.
And yes, i know, i should be working, but meh, thats why i work in a job well below the level im qualified and experienced for.
I know you have your reasons, and theyre probably good ones.... but i cant help but feel fed up that ive lost out, purely because im not unemployed or off on long term sick.
Anyhoos, thanks for listening.
yes i would like cheese, and possibly some cra ckers to go with the whine.
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Virtuozzo
IVC Consortium INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:06:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Sonic Katana
Originally by: Virtuozzo bla bla corporate product development and lifecycle maintenance mumbo jumbo
erm wtf are you on about? can't u just keep something simple and say bad idea or good idea?
Already did that :P Taking out the forums is a seriously bad idea. Trouble is, it is not an isolated event, there's a pretty strong trend in motion, one which is basically not good.
Virtuozzo
Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" *snip* Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug |
Logan Williams
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:07:00 -
[593]
The sad thing is that outside of me, I've not seen one really good forum ***** hit this yet. Where's Goonswarm? Where's BoB? Whre ar ethe individuals like me who excel at posting? DPB, you around??
oh yeah, and that said, this thread has already hit 20 pages with no "heavy hitters" hittng it yet. Oh, and to CCCP....bad decision. (yes CCCP not CCP) ;) |
Wadaya
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:08:00 -
[594]
On the contract system, even if you sort by price, it also sorts by date. Same price contract can appear on multiple(!) pages, with the newer contracts getting preferential treatment with high entry orders like ship bpc's. The ignore feature is nice, but there are not enough ignore slots.
In regards to having to block people on the trade channels that we will also be forced to use, can you enable it so we can make folders in the blocked list in people and places? opening that tab makes my client freeze.
Wad
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Logan Williams
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:08:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Kirex wtf?! You're taking down the trade forums because you think contracts will suffice? Have you devs ever USED the contracts system?
Yes, they live out in Jove space and play reindeer games instead of worry about how to keep customers. Read COAD. /sarcasm |
Arrs Grazznic
FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:10:00 -
[596]
Originally by: Delusion 'Fel I can appreciate that im posting a bit late here, and i doubt anyone will read or even care about my post, but ill write it and hope :S
I care. No, really, I do. Dropping the trade forums without a mechanism to support a wide range of service and other sales is detrimental to the game and the player community. The more individuals who say as much, the more CCP will understand. I'm not sure it will do any good, but the message may just about get across.
Cheers, Arrs
FireStar are now recruiting
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Major Stallion
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:11:00 -
[597]
so, heres an issue that comes to mind. Anyone thats got a service to hawk that normally wouyldve been advertised on the sell forums, why not throw a thread on Eve General discussion. We shouldnt be forced to use an outside source to generate isk for our revenue making ventures.
After all, this IS CCP's game, isnt it? While Chribba's idea is valiant and a savior for the players, what happens if he stops playing and cancels his web hosting? Then who will CCP have us turn to? ________________________________ High Sec PvP
Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
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Sariyah
Gallente HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:12:00 -
[598]
Really bad change. Why?!
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Moraguth
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:19:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Logan Williams
Originally by: Kirex wtf?! You're taking down the trade forums because you think contracts will suffice? Have you devs ever USED the contracts system?
Yes, they live out in Jove space and play reindeer games instead of worry about how to keep customers. Read COAD. /sarcasm
Have you used it? No, seriously. Have you tried? It's easy and effective once you set your filters in a productive way.
Try these two things, and you'll be amazed at how much easier it will be for you. 1: Sort Page By > Simple View. 2: When you say get contracts, click on the Price colum to sort by it. It is amazing how many people thing that they can put a WTB order up for 100K for a BS and think that it'll work.
good game |
Scott Ryder
Omen Incorporated Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:20:00 -
[600]
This is by FAR the dumbest idea that ccp has ever came up with! End Eve is wonderful :) |
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