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PeacefullNub
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:18:00 -
[1441]
 Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Mid range combat is shooting 15-30km in a small gang situation round a gate/station, there's nothing magical about it. I'm not going to trawl killboards looking for Pulse Armageddons on kills (I seriously doubt you have either) besides, pilots who use them effectively have already posted in this thread.
I think you dont understand what we are talking about.
1) Solo Mid range exists (gatechamps only, not even station camps) but solo mid range combat isnt. There is no way to hold enemy at 15-50km.
2) Gatechamps 2-10 BS+recons+taklers vs 1-2 incoming BS - isnt fair fight. I wounder how ppls allways try to use this "mid range" argument? Its allways gang vs solo\duo fights, when gang has all advantages, when enemy is outnumbered and lagging.
Or is it ballanace that minimum 2 amarr ships (at least BS+takler) need to kill 1 enemy BS?
3) Gatechamps gang vs gang has no mid range. Simply too many ships for recons and taklers to hold, and enemy allso has antisuport units. So finaly its close range, when amarrs are weak.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:00:00 -
[1442]
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.
A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Thoruos
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:34:00 -
[1443]
hiho, atm im a 12 mil sp caldari char but dont like the way of pvp as caldari (specially the shield tank in pvp). im now thinking about crossing to another race. fotm seems to be deimos or vaga. but i really like the looks of the amarr ships.
i have decent armor tankin skills and as caldari missiles for sacrilege arent a problem, but tbh i would prefer lasers since i just think they look awesome and a scifi-ship just needs lasers.
the basic question is now seriously: are amarr ok to pvp in or is it really just a pain in the a**?
(i wouldnt have the drawbacks and problems a new char has since my fitting and cap skills are already up)
ps: dont want to hijack the thread and hope this is not regarded trolling but making another amarr thread just for this question seemed a little bit overdone, since already some are not so happy with the amount of amarr threads.
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:48:00 -
[1444]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 01:32:38
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
40km webs and scramblers? Scramblers shutting down MWD's?... you guys don't want much do you...
Mid range combat isn't about flying solo.
Mid range combat currently is almost entirely some guy shooting a npc rat 50km away thinking that is pvp.
Mid range combat is also the rare occasions where some close range people are flying past you to take on long range people. The guy shooting and missing a lot due to crappy trackng on hitting nanoships zooming past is "Amarr mid range combat".
Tell me what this "mid range combat" is? Tell us how you scramble someone at 50km as well as how he got there from gate, where you should be 15km away?
And before you say bubbles, only a idiot gang leader would take long range pilots and put them into "mid range" setup. So be real here, where is this magical mid range combat you talk about?
I looked at every pro pvper alliance/corp kilboard. NOT 1 of them had mid range style setups.
Mid range combat is shooting 15-30km in a small gang situation round a gate/station, there's nothing magical about it. I'm not going to trawl killboards looking for Pulse Armageddons on kills (I seriously doubt you have either) besides, pilots who use them effectively have already posted in this thread.
I trawed killboards and could not find a SINGLE mid range setup unless it was a clown alliance. I looked at MC, BoB, AAA and other quality PvP outfits. No midrange setups at all.
And people use long range ships with short range ammo to do the "mid range" as you call it. Thats whay the top pvpers mentioned above do as I am looking at their ammo in ships etc. Why should they bother mid range when long range covers that just fine for the once in the lifetime occasion someone is 50km away, orbiting without a scram like a NPC
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:51:00 -
[1445]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.
A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so.
Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km
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PeacefullNub
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:29:00 -
[1446]
Edited by: PeacefullNub on 10/01/2008 11:41:09
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.
15km gate decloacking range is nothing for any ship with MWD - mega will be near abaddon before they targeted each other. Thats a reason why long range snipers +ceptors are used instead "mid range" abaddons. They have greater range, allmost same dps, and if things getting realy bad - snipers and ceptors have ability to escape.
I cant imagine situations when megapulse boat can be better than any close range boat or sniper. This is what many ppls called "amarr problem" - no role in game.
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Felysta Sandorn
System-Lords
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:46:00 -
[1447]
50 Pages and people say there's no problem! 
Latest Video, Click Here!
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:04:00 -
[1448]
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 13:04:47
Quick recap of last 50 pages
New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing.
Also for experienced players,
Lasers have.....
Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs
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SkyCrane
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:19:00 -
[1449]
I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship.
Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns...
Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo.
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Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :) |
Yiang Wang
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:37:00 -
[1450]
Respectfully /signed.
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:38:00 -
[1451]
I am in the Epic thread.
~Nyron
Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:08:00 -
[1452]
Originally by: SkyCrane
I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship.
Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns...
Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo.
Yep. Sacri was designed with Lasers in mind, and hence has good fitting now they changed it to lasers.
Same with Nightmare. They got 4 lasers with 100% bonus, but grid never got nerfed. And nightmare is now actually a viable Laser ship!
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:12:00 -
[1453]
Originally by: SkyCrane
I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship.
Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns...
Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo.
No! Amarr role is: Enemy morale booster, boost avoidance and nerf-bat magnet.
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[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Wrattus Norvegicus
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:39:00 -
[1454]
Of course the simple solution to the 'Amarr question' is to simply fly the other, better ships. I flew the Absolution for ages before I realised how much better the other racial command ships are. I now fly a Sleipnir and have never looked back.
You might be suprised how quickly you can retrain for a different ship in the same class, many of the skills carry over.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.01.10 17:37:00 -
[1455]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 17:36:46
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.
A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so.
Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km
Coming from the noob alt that's hilarious...
...or is that really your main ()
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:03:00 -
[1456]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 17:36:46
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.
A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so.
Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km
Coming from the noob alt that's hilarious...
...or is that really your main ()
So you call me a noob and it turns out the noobs know more than you? Thanks for admiting.
Mid range does not exist so your arguments FAIL.
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Vikarion
Caldari
United Heavens
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:04:00 -
[1457]
I'm starting to get the feeling that the devs avoid any thread with the word "Amarr" in it.
Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know if they actually understand/acknowledge these concerns.
I use CrumpleCorn(tm) Sigs, because they (and he) are awesome! |
Titus Lewis
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:02:00 -
[1458]
They have been for a long time.
Originally by: Vikarion
I'm starting to get the feeling that the devs avoid any thread with the word "Amarr" in it.
Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know if they actually understand/acknowledge these concerns.
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Vikarion
Caldari
United Heavens
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Posted - 2008.01.11 01:56:00 -
[1459]
Well, that's kind of sad. Have they ever given any reasons for why they think Amarr are not underpowered?
Or, rather, why lasers are not underpowered?
I like CCP, but this does seem to be a bit of a blind spot.
And by "blind spot", I mean "giant train tunnel".
I use CrumpleCorn(tm) Sigs, because they (and he) are awesome! |
Plausable Swap
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Posted - 2008.01.11 02:00:00 -
[1460]
Amarr role in game is to be the worst out of the four races.
SOMEONE has to be it, so quit whining noobs.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 02:20:00 -
[1461]
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.
If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2008.01.11 03:29:00 -
[1462]
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.
If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.
Well, I think its a myriad of things.
The playerbase looks at amarr and think:
The APOC, maller, zealot, punisher, prophecy, curse, pilgrim, and lasers in general need work, and that fights revolve around that magical 24km scram range (silly isn't it?) lessening the value of mid-range.
The developers look at amarr and think:
The geddon, abaddon, Khanid line, ceptors and capitals are great, EANs and omni-tanking are the issue here.
I kinda side with the people who fly amarr (is there even 1 developer left who flies them?)
OH, to your post, most amarrian vessels actually have a nearly useless high-slot module where NOS used to go (if it would fit) that is looking for a new home.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
Spyder1226
Scare Tactics
Cult of War
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Posted - 2008.01.11 03:41:00 -
[1463]
Just would like to show my support for this thread. I hope CCP uses the great wealth of information that is in this thread to fix amarr.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.11 03:43:00 -
[1464]
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.
If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.
Or remove the extra highslot and add a mid; would be a boost to a ton of Amarr ships really.
Three midslot designs are preety stupid; the four-midslot Amarr ships are simply way way better.
Rifters!
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2008.01.11 04:07:00 -
[1465]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.
If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.
Or remove the extra highslot and add a mid; would be a boost to a ton of Amarr ships really.
Three midslot designs are preety stupid; the four-midslot Amarr ships are simply way way better.
I would soo love to argue with this, but that would be a lie, and I would have to edit my post above =)
The only argument I can see against it is that amarr are not meant to be the least bit versatile, it says so on the tin. I know design philosophies seem to get trampled all over when balancing is concerned, but I remember amarr doctrine being lots of lasers and lots of armor, saying nothing about versatility or electronics (what more mids mean in my mind.)
This held very true up until tier 3 BSes and tier 2 BCs, as no other race had a 8 turret BS, and only the gallente mostly competed on the amount of turrets per ship. This kinda got lost in the shuffle over the years though. Amarr went from omg damage to run of the mill damage. We have lost our identity as a race and CCP has shown no signs of giving it back to us. Currently we are at best one mostly failed philosophy (kill em before they get close) and a hodge podge of the rest of the races (missile and drone boats.)
I would like to have the clarity of purpose like gallente (droners/do-or-die-in-your-face-gank), caldari (missiles, ECMs and long range) and minmatar (speed and versatility) have.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.11 04:24:00 -
[1466]
Originally by: shinsushi
[
I would soo love to argue with this, but that would be a lie, and I would have to edit my post above =)
The only argument I can see against it is that amarr are not meant to be the least bit versatile, it says so on the tin. I know design philosophies seem to get trampled all over when balancing is concerned, but I remember amarr doctrine being lots of lasers and lots of armor, saying nothing about versatility or electronics (what more mids mean in my mind.)
Essential PvP mods take three mids, cap booster is what fourth mid means to me, a piece of engineering rather then electronics equipment. Design philosphy or no, four mids is preety necessary unless you're strictly going for plated setups.
Take the Harbringer, for example; one of the reasons it's a much better ship then the Prophecy is exactly four midslots instead of three.
Rifters!
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SkyCrane
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Posted - 2008.01.11 05:23:00 -
[1467]
Originally by: shinsushi
Well, I think its a myriad of things.
The playerbase looks at amarr and think:
The APOC, maller, zealot, punisher, prophecy, curse, pilgrim, and lasers in general need work, and that fights revolve around that magical 24km scram range (silly isn't it?) lessening the value of mid-range.
The developers look at amarr and think:
The geddon, abaddon, Khanid line, ceptors and capitals are great, EANs and omni-tanking are the issue here.
I kinda side with the people who fly amarr (is there even 1 developer left who flies them?)
OH, to your post, most amarrian vessels actually have a nearly useless high-slot module where NOS used to go (if it would fit) that is looking for a new home.[/quote
I wonder what's really wrong with the Curse? Yes, it's less of a solopwnmobile now, but it's still a great ship if you use it correct. Not counting the fact that it's in fact a doneboat, but I have come to temrs with that a long time ago, as drones are important on an Amarr ship no mater how you look at it. 
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Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :) |
PeacefullNub
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Posted - 2008.01.11 05:52:00 -
[1468]
I would like to repeat someone words (dont remember exactly who said that):
1 extra drone brandwich (5 for frig, 10 for cruiser, 25 for bs) = 1 high slot
mid slot>>low slot (just stupid, but many active midslot modules are better than passive lowslots analogs, not mention webbs, scramblers and ew)
empty high slot (especialy when you cannot fit it)<<low slot.
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Valadeya uthanaras
Killjoy.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 05:56:00 -
[1469]
Problem with the curse is actually simple:
I am flying at 3000m/s, at 15km of a sleipnir with 220 mm autocannon and barrage.
I have 3 T2 Tracking disruptor, with top skill and top ship BONUS!!!
Sleipnir still hit me for full damage!!! and even autocannon bs will do good damage on me!!! EASY TOO SEE HOW WRONG IT IS.
Missile with hit me with full damage....
ECM on a rook kill 3 ships targeting almost permanantly from long range, a really nice role
Damp + Scram bonus on a Lachesis will keep you out of any harm from a single ship, or even a few ships for a while, and make you one of the best tackler in many situation
Huggin .... dont have to make a picture why its amazing.....just think of the long range web.......with crazy strenght.
Last patch show how much general lack of knowledge of the games the new balance developper have(zulupark), siply because EVERYWHERE on the forum OR in-game Tracking disruptor was CLEARLY the worst electronic warfare.....
YET HE NERFED IT
because of some content introduction HE SHOULD HAVE USED TO BOOOSSSST IT.....
SO why curse is half-decent.....simply because It have noseferatu and neutraliser with long range that where nerfed...but it have no use in large gang, had is EW screwed for some idiotic reason, can't fit decently.
THe main point his.......Curse boost to a heavy level a medium level module.....while the other 3 boost something to a level no other ship have
Valadeya
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.01.11 06:55:00 -
[1470]
I'll list the sub-capital Amarr combat ships that can compete with other races in their respective category:
Punisher, Maldiction, Arbitrator, Harbinger, Armageddon, Abaddon, Paladin, Sacrilege, Devoter, Curse, Absolution, Damnation.
Of those 12 ships, only 6 use lasers as the primary weapon. All other Amarr ships pretty much suck. What especially needs help are the Pilgrim, Zealot, Apoc, and most of the T1 lineup.
Oh, and who uses Tracking Disruptors anyway? I don't fit em on my Curse because there are better things to put in those mids.
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