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BACON: Never be surprised again (relaunch)

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Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:09:00 - [481] Originally by: Segge Bolled This: Originally by: Tommy TenKreds It is not necessary for CCP to agree. BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP. and, Originally by: Tommy TenKreds You are wrong. The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point. That. So, could this all mean ... TAKE THAT, CCP? Or ... not. I'd wager not. I mean that CCP's response is beside the point when the point is one of valid logic as applied to the functionality of BACON when compared to the terms of the EULA. CCP's ultimate decision concerning BACON is, of course, of paramount importance. Originally by: Segge Bolled Especially since all it (BACON) "automates" (as far as I can see AND I use the term "automates" very loosely here) is having to physically look at local, instead it allows you to LISTEN. Nonetheless, both visually scanning local and mentally processing that data are designated as active player processes by the original game mechanics. BACON automates these actions by immediately providing the player with salient information, removing the need for player participation. That violates the EULA by "changing the way in which the game is played". You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. (EULA 7.A.2.) Originally by: Segge Bolled People have been looking in local IN REAL TIME and practically AUTOMATICALLY (when need be) since Local was introduced. Strangely enough, it hadn't induced a mass hysteria yet. Granted, I haven't read the last 15, 16 (or so?) pages too closely, as I didn't have my pond waders handy. Hopefully I'll get around to it before the lock, the thread clean, or it simply sinks to the bottom of the pond itself. At the end of the day, it exchanges the stimulus which the user has to react to, if they choose. Nothing more I can see. Though, that is simply my interpretation and probably as wrong as everyone else furiously burning their daily calorie intake here. I suggest you consider the usefulness of BACON in alerting the presence of war targets in a crowded system, where scanning and processing the data provided by the game would be a lengthy manual operation for the unskilled. "BACON: Never be surprised again" Vigilance is the player's responsibility! Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP!
Dictum Factum Gemini Sun Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:09:00 - [482] Perhaps, if this software is determined to be against the EULA and those that wish to see the removal of local get their way as well, an acceptable alternative would be to have gates broadcast to all ships in the system the name of the pilot and their ship type. After all, if a gate can launch you millions of miles through space, it certainly has the means to broadcast a radio signal relating to that activity. That way, everyone is happy! I know less than you think I do.
Orion Eridanus Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:17:00 - [483] Edited by: Orion Eridanus on 22/04/2008 02:20:38 Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you. My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call. Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer. Taken from other thread. Bolded the important part. As of yet there has been no other DEV reply say it is or isn't legal. Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:18:00 - [484] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Where did I say CCP have rock solid approval? I DIDN'T. I said until CCP says so it is NOT against the EULA. I also said that at this time they have said it ISN'T. "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA..." is not the same thing as saying "BACON does not violate the EULA". Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I have also said that they may well change that decision. Unlike others in this thread that are proclaiming it is regardless of what CCP says are is going to say. Reading comprehension ftl. Quite so. You fail to comprehend the very clear manner in which BACON violates the EULA. CCP have reserved the right to review whether it violates the EULA and I presume that they are still doing so, given the opposition to it from a large proportion of the player base. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If they declare it a violation, so be it. If they don't, so be it. Until there, it IS NOT. Regardless of what YOU believe. You are still wrong. I will put that down to your own lack of comprehension and move on. "BACON: Never be surprised again" Vigilance is the player's responsibility! Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP!
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:38:00 - [485] Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 22/04/2008 02:39:03 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Quite so. You fail to comprehend the very clear manner in which BACON violates the EULA. There is no clean manner. Bacon does NOT interface with the client in any way. It does NOT automate any task in any way. It DOES read the files, much like other applications. It DOES sound an alarm based on those log files, much like other applications. The warning is NOT "automating" functions inside the game, which is directly the definition of a macro. It does NOT allow you to do anything if you were not at the keyboard. YOU still have to perform any actions. Quote: CCP have reserved the right to review whether it violates the EULA and I presume that they are still doing so, given the opposition to it from a large proportion of the player base. "Large portion of the player base". All I can say is lol. This thread is pretty much 50/50, and only 17-18 pages so far? A freighter ganking thread generates more interest in less time Of course CCP is internally debating this, and they should. It is a new method of doing things and its impact MUST be evaluated. Even if this tool is not in violation, is the TECHNIQUE likely to cause issues with other tools not so benign. CCP must take the overall effects of this software, how it interacts with their systems and what other things could do in relation to these in order to decide their next step. I fully expect that this will be declared legal. I also fully expect that no word will be made until they have a plan in place to allow submission of logfiles rather than cut-paste, and plans laid out to encrypt those logs. I feel they will have to take these steps to keep more nefarious programs from using the same techniques. I would LIKE to see this type of functionality added into the game. Quote: You are still wrong. I will put that down to your own lack of comprehension and move on. lol, I was thinking the same about you In the meantime, the night is young and my guns are rusting. See everyone in game... Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:49:00 - [486] Originally by: Tortun Nahme stop! \o/ your infallible logic will hurt their brains I find it amusing that every single one of your posts in this thread are of the "Ha! Somebody else made a counterargument, so now I'm going to poast a 'take that!' response" Honestly, I can't find a single constructive post from you in this whole thread. _____________________________________________________________________________
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.22 02:54:00 - [487] Originally by: DroneBay Diva Originally by: Tortun Nahme stop! \o/ your infallible logic will hurt their brains I find it amusing that every single one of your posts in this thread are of the "Ha! Somebody else made a counterargument, so now I'm going to poast a 'take that!' response" Honestly, I can't find a single constructive post from you in this whole thread. yes, because this post added so much funny, I can't find a single constructive post from you in this whole thread either. Mostly just whining Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
LittleTerror Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:02:00 - [488] If every carebear has some piece of ** 3rd party program that tells them when I enter local I think i'll just stop loging in because what would be the ***** point, its hard enough already with just local.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:05:00 - [489] Edited by: Matrixcvd on 22/04/2008 03:07:42 Only people i see getting excited about this are the ones that think they need it the most, the people who are most vunerable to wts, to gankers in 0.0 and lo sec, its like moses parting the red sea... the people that need every crutch, every change in game mehcanics to suite their own lack of ability and effort. its just ridiculous, might as well ban nanos, high sec ganking, and everything else in this game that actually makes it fun, unpredictable, difficult and life like. Rules are rules and of course they are made to be broken, there has been enough accusations of impropriety at CCP to warrent suscipision at every turn, and a partial acceptance will be enough to spurn the tinfoil hat club to start chompin at the bit There is no question in breaks EULA its pretty clear. Now you can speculate why CCP has a passive nod so far to this till you are blue in the face, but it should be very clear to all of you that anything like this, is a significant step in the wrong direction. Whether it breaks TOS/EULA is not the question, if people really feel this mod is furthers the true essence of what Eve has been about for the last 5 years (over 2 of which i have been here for) then its a sad day for this game and a sick turning away from what Eve has always been about. So get your audible beeps up, put your diapers on and get full dose of teeter toys.. cause this is just a disgrace
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:10:00 - [490] Originally by: LittleTerror If every carebear has some piece of ** 3rd party program that tells them when I enter local I think i'll just stop loging in because what would be the *** point, its hard enough already with just local. utilizing the open source Bacon code, I have begun developing an ap, that utilizes an alt in every system, that will warn us when LittleTerror logs in, and where he is at all times Originally by:** Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."

Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:11:00 - [491] Originally by: Faife I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent. /facepalm
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:13:00 - [492] I would be interested to see what would happen to Eve if all of the carebears got their way. 1. Allow Bacon 2. Eliminate Suicide Ganks 3. Nerf empire wars (again) 4. Get rid of probing people out in missions 5. Boost sentry guns in lowsec etc etc. I would be interested to see how long Eve actually lasts. Eventually all you would be left with are the people who sit in highsec all day and accumulate 'stuff', because the game would be *****-ass boring for everyone else. _____________________________________________________________________________
LittleTerror Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:16:00 - [493] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: LittleTerror If every carebear has some piece of ** 3rd party program that tells them when I enter local I think i'll just stop loging in because what would be the ***** point, its hard enough already with just local. utilizing the open source Bacon code, I have begun developing an ap, that utilizes an alt in every system, that will warn us when LittleTerror logs in, and where he is at all times That was just
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:18:00 - [494] really, and yet you took the time out of your busy life to comment on it! I feel blessed Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:24:00 - [495] Originally by: Cori4n Edited by: Cori4n on 21/04/2008 22:04:26 Originally by: Miki Fin 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site. As you noted this would ban every EVE-related tool in existence. But I don't really understand why everyone likes to quote the EULA here. As it is, CCP has stated clearly that BACON is presently to be treated as EULA-compliant. Neither its author nor its users will get banned for it. If CCP decides to outlaw it (I do hope they don't), they will either claim it now counts as breaking one of the EULA's terms, or, if it doesn't, they will modify the EULA so that it does. The EULA's actual text is, to be honest, irrelevant... They don't have to go that far, they can simply state that it misuses data created by the client and is not allowed just as replacing your cache files, files generated by EVE, is not allowed.
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:38:00 - [496] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby There is no clean manner. Bacon does NOT interface with the client in any way. It automates the observation of local for incoming/outgoing players. You can argue all you want, but in the end the this is still the plain and simple truth. BACON is a local monitoring macro that is fed by the use of a logserver designed for bug hunting.
darklegionca Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:39:00 - [497] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Dictum Factum Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings. You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA. You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting. how about you just stop posting right now......
Proxay Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:43:00 - [498] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Although extremely lame, I'm grateful this tool exists. CCP can't *****foot around the removal of local anymore. BAN LOCAL AND BAN ANYONE THAT DISAGREES Quote 'dis if you're down.
Ikki Phoenix Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.22 03:59:00 - [499] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Dictum Factum Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings. You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA. You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting. Siigari, check the OP links to the other thread. A CCP dev states that it doesn't violate the EULA.It also states that CCP reserves the right to change its opinion. you cannot expect for CCP to come out and post an official thread saying what they already said.Why?cause they already said it was legal So,what the CCP dev posted is CCP word. Now,if in the future they change their mind,that is their right. But as far as the community,I don't think anyone has any business demanding for the tool to be banned for the simple reason that as CCP stated, the tool doesn't violate any EULA. Now,if the tool violates the EULA,then fine,ban it.But again, read CCP statement in the other thread.CCP has said the tool doesn't violate the EULA. That is good enough
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.22 04:00:00 - [500] Edited by: Cori4n on 22/04/2008 04:02:01 Edited by: Cori4n on 22/04/2008 03:59:48 Originally by: Orion Eridanus I went looking through all the other BACON posts and did not see one Dev reply to it, and for all we know the OP is talking out his ass saying CCP approved it for the time being. One can only assume at this point that they are discussing the legality of it. Why don't you look in the EVE Technology Lab then EDIT: 512th

DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.22 04:04:00 - [501] Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 22/04/2008 04:04:48 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Quote 'dis if you're down. You sir, seem to have mistaken this for a Goonswarm thread.
Dante Cyberon	Posted - 2008.04.22 04:21:00 - [502] Edited by: Dante Cyberon on 22/04/2008 04:21:00 Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Dictum Factum Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings. You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA. You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting. Siigari, check the OP links to the other thread. A CCP dev states that it doesn't violate the EULA.It also states that CCP reserves the right to change its opinion. you cannot expect for CCP to come out and post an official thread saying what they already said.Why?cause they already said it was legal So,what the CCP dev posted is CCP word. Now,if in the future they change their mind,that is their right. But as far as the community,I don't think anyone has any business demanding for the tool to be banned for the simple reason that as CCP stated, the tool doesn't violate any EULA. Now,if the tool violates the EULA,then fine,ban it.But again, read CCP statement in the other thread.CCP has said the tool doesn't violate the EULA. That is good enough A GM said it "Appeared to be within the rules" and a CCP dev said "Please do not take this as official CCP approval (Or something along those lines) Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc. Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.22 05:15:00 - [503] Originally by: Dante Cyberon Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc. Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero Uh, GMs > Devs as far as banning you is concerned...
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.22 05:28:00 - [504] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Dante Cyberon Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc. Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero Uh, GMs > Devs as far as banning you is concerned... Tbh, CCP are not going to ban anybody for developing something they previously said was legal, even if they do change their minds. While I do not like this product, and I think it is bad for Eve as a whole, I do not wish to see the creators of it banned.
Ikki Phoenix Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.22 05:57:00 - [505] Originally by: Dante Cyberon Edited by: Dante Cyberon on 22/04/2008 04:21:00 Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Dictum Factum Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings. You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA. You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting. Siigari, check the OP links to the other thread. A CCP dev states that it doesn't violate the EULA.It also states that CCP reserves the right to change its opinion. you cannot expect for CCP to come out and post an official thread saying what they already said.Why?cause they already said it was legal So,what the CCP dev posted is CCP word. Now,if in the future they change their mind,that is their right. But as far as the community,I don't think anyone has any business demanding for the tool to be banned for the simple reason that as CCP stated, the tool doesn't violate any EULA. Now,if the tool violates the EULA,then fine,ban it.But again, read CCP statement in the other thread.CCP has said the tool doesn't violate the EULA. That is good enough A GM said it "Appeared to be within the rules" and a CCP dev said "Please do not take this as official CCP approval (Or something along those lines) Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc. Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero Here is what GM Grimmi said exactly: "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate." That is good enough me says. As far as GMs and devs,although I never worked for CCP,I have worked for Acclaim Games Inc and I am ready to bet that GMs and devs have talked about it.In addition GMs are trained to know what breaks the EULA and ToS. A GM is saying it doesn't,good enough. And again, if CCP changes their mind, they will let the creator and the users know. But,you see,I think the main problem I think is that people don't like change.
Dictum Factum Gemini Sun Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.04.22 06:24:00 - [506] Originally by: Ikki Phoenix ...people don't like change. Others do not like to share advantages that they already have, either. I know less than you think I do.
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.22 06:38:00 - [507] Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 22/04/2008 06:39:41 Originally by: Dictum Factum Originally by: Ikki Phoenix ...people don't like change. Others do not like to share advantages that they already have, either. This must be where you signature comes into play. I have never used this program or any other like it, and I'm pretty sure I can say the same for most of the most vocal people in this thread as well. I personally use Vent, Evemon, and occasionally EFT. None of these programs, however, give mean automated system which gives me a real-time ingame advantage. And to be perfectly honest, I don't begrudge the people who use this. If CCP has not deemed it illegal, then by all means, take every advantage you can get. That is what Eve is all about. What I do not understand, however, is the people who honestly can't see how this fundamentally changes the way the game is played. And yes, I am willing to quit over this, because it is a significant nerf on my playstyle, to the point where I believe it will be more frustrating, and more like work, than actual fun. I am, however, going to wait the 2 months til my subscription runs out to see what comes of this. And no, you can't have my stuff, it's spoken for. _____________________________________________________________________________
Trind2222 Amarr Soliders Of Eve	Posted - 2008.04.22 06:39:00 - [508] Please ccp investigate BACON. Hope this tool will be illegal, this tool supports afk players.
Dictum Factum Gemini Sun Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.04.22 06:41:00 - [509] Originally by: DroneBay Diva I have never used this program or any other like it. I did not state that you did. Perhaps you should read my post again. I know less than you think I do.
Ikki Phoenix Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.22 06:44:00 - [510] Originally by: Trind2222 Please ccp investigate BACON. Hope this tool will be illegal, this tool supports afk players. I think each person can and has the right to view this tool or any differently than you. You think it supports AFK,while I think it can tactical possibilities. We can go like this for ages EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3



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