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BACON: Never be surprised again (relaunch)

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Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:58:00 - [961] Originally by: Cori4n Strawman. Proponents of BACON who refer to its not automating anything are obviously referring to taking tangible actions in-game, like a macro does. Ahh, so it does automate stuff, just not the stuff that's bad to automate? Gotcha! Originally by: Cori4n The ideas have been in the technology lab forum for god knows how long. BACON is also a terrible platform for macros. And now it'll get worse because of the open source being around. BACON is a great platform for macros. Look around to see people already having modified it to do stuff far beyond watching local. Originally by: Cori4n That you describe people who use it as cheaters shows your lack of respect for CCP: that is, if it is not against CCP's rules, who are you to overrule them and declare it is cheating? That CCP can't say it's cheating, and have to stay with the "frowning" response doesn't mean that I and the BACON critics won't openly say it's cheating to use something like this, especially when it's been denounced by CCP. Originally by: Cori4n I'm sorry to reply to a troll, though Ahh, the "you're a troll" defense. Well, you're a cheater so I guess that means I have moral superiority over you. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Kong iverz Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:05:00 - [962] Originally by: NightmareX Without ANY pvpers in EVE, who would buy stuffs from market?. Well anyways, the crybabys / carebears just cry on the forum now anyways and they get what they want, so it's nothing new that the carebears are trying to get EVE into a new World of Warcraft. Oh so does this mean that next time i see u and ur friends popinging in to local (oh sorry hear the TICK sound) i dont have to warp to my pos because u dont have any intrest of blowing up my 3 hulks:P i mean its not often u see a raging alcholic blow up a liqueur store??? Kai Onslot can kill two stones with one bird
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:35:00 - [963] Edited by: Cori4n on 29/04/2008 22:36:51 Edited by: Cori4n on 29/04/2008 22:35:40 Originally by: Ki An Ahh, so it does automate stuff, just not the stuff that's bad to automate? Gotcha! Yes, exactly. There are plenty of things that are not bad to automate, consider IGB systems. Would you argue that I'm not allowed to create an IGB app that automates FC duties? Quote: And now it'll get worse because of the open source being around. BACON is a great platform for macros. Look around to see people already having modified it to do stuff far beyond watching local. I do not see any such modifications. Be specific, lest you make another strawman argument. Quote: That CCP can't say it's cheating, and have to stay with the "frowning" response doesn't mean that I and the BACON critics won't openly say it's cheating to use something like this, especially when it's been denounced by CCP. I don't think anyone in this thread has told me why CCP can't say it's an exploit, as a temporary measure before technical fixes are put through (as is done for every exploit). I am still waiting.* EDIT: I'm not saying that this would prevent every user from using it, of course it wouldn't. I am asking why CCP cannot say this to prevent its honest* users (most of them!) from using it, and to justify calling those who do cheaters. Quote: Ahh, the "you're a troll" defense. I think that if you are going to use strawman arguments, such as (just from your last two posts) weirdly defining automation, and pointing to macros and expansions that do not exist, as well as arguing ad hominem by calling proponents of BACON cheaters, then you probably are a troll. But this is just my best guess: I invite you to prove me wrong with rational arguments.
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:00:00 - [964] Originally by: Bish Ounen "Gunfleet Logistics; Making Eve as it should have been from day one." I fail to see how BACON makes EVE a cold, harsh, unforgiving universe, as that is what EVE was set to be from day one. I'll tell you kids what, I'll join you in asking for BACON to be integrated into EVE if you help me push them to never remove a player ship from space. You want safety? Go dock, or fit a cloak and pray CCP never gives us a much needed, very hard to use stealth penetrating probe.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:32:00 - [965] Originally by: Cori4n Yes, exactly. There are plenty of things that are not bad to automate, consider IGB systems. Would you argue that I'm not allowed to create an IGB app that automates FC duties? Be more specific. I would say that any 3rd party software that automates anything in Eve is tantamount to a macro. Also, who are Gunfleet Logistics or you to decide what is and what is not good to automate? CCP obviously doesn't agree with you. Originally by: Cori4n I do not see any such modifications. Be specific, lest you make another strawman argument. As I said, look around. People here and on SHC have more or less posted exactly how they did to create a log-off macro from BACON in about 15 minutes. That's just a simple change, mind you. Originally by: Cori4n I don't think anyone in this thread has told me why CCP can't say it's an exploit, as a temporary measure before technical fixes are put through (as is done for every exploit). I am still waiting.* You have been told why several times. You just won't accept it. There's a difference. Originally by: Cori4n EDIT: I'm not saying that this would prevent every user from using it, of course it wouldn't. I am asking why CCP cannot say this to prevent its honest* users (most of them!) from using it, and to justify calling those who do cheaters. We have all the justification we need to call you and your ilk cheaters. Originally by: Cori4n I think that if you are going to use strawman arguments, such as (just from your last two posts) weirdly defining automation, and pointing to macros and expansions that do not exist, as well as arguing ad hominem by calling proponents of BACON cheaters, then you probably are a troll. But this is just my best guess: I invite you to prove me wrong with rational arguments. The ones using strawmen are you and people like you. You just can't find a base of facts to argue from so you skip and jump between justifications for this outright cheat. CCP has asked you not to use it. Why the hell would you still use it? Isn't that all you need? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:46:00 - [966] Originally by: Ki An Yes, exactly. There are plenty of things that are not bad to automate, consider IGB systems. Would you argue that I'm not allowed to create an IGB app that automates FC duties? Be more specific. I would say that any 3rd party software that automates anything in Eve is tantamount to a macro. Then I wonder why there is an in-game browser in this game
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:49:00 - [967] Edited by: Ki An on 29/04/2008 23:49:12 Originally by: Cori4n Then I wonder why there is an in-game browser in this game Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game? If you think that an in-game browser justifies automated tools you're pretty messed up. You also avoided the most serious question in my post. Hint: It's the last one. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 00:00:00 - [968] Originally by: Ki An Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game? If you think that an in-game browser justifies automated tools you're pretty messed up. The browser is a gateway to the Internet as a whole. My corporation has an IGB app that AUTOMATES selecting the best ore to mine, given a particular market that you select, and the system you are currently in: http://gunfleet.org/igb/mining.php I've even seen jump planners that AUTOMATE the task of planning your jumps. I mean, you just select things in dropdown boxes and it PLANS YOUR ROUTE! OMGWTFBBQ. We're even bigger sploiters than I thought.
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.04.30 00:39:00 - [969] Originally by: Reuser ... The browser is a gateway to the Internet as a whole. My corporation has an IGB app that AUTOMATES selecting the best ore to mine, given a particular market that you select, and the system you are currently in: http://gunfleet.org/igb/mining.php I've even seen jump planners that AUTOMATE the task of planning your jumps. I mean, you just select things in dropdown boxes and it PLANS YOUR ROUTE! OMGWTFBBQ. We're even bigger sploiters than I thought. Do you even know what the word automate means?
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 00:51:00 - [970] Originally by: Shadow Joy Do you even know what the word automate means? I assure you that I do. Which version of the definition are you looking for? Can we agree on the OED as the canonical source?

Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:01:00 - [971] Originally by: Reuser I assure you that I do. Which version of the definition are you looking for? Can we agree on the OED as the canonical source? Sure can. Which means you explain to me how manually entering in information, then manually pressing a button to perform a set of calculations, then manually piloting your ship to the location calculated by your fancy spreadsheet counts as automation. By the definition you seem to be using a pocket calculator is equivalent to using a macro to auto-log off the moment someone enters local.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:17:00 - [972] Please check my edit, above. OED sub died.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:24:00 - [973] Originally by: Shadow Joy By the definition you seem to be using a pocket calculator is equivalent to using a macro to auto-log off the moment someone enters local. Does BACON do that? No, it doesn't. Stick to the topic at hand.
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:34:00 - [974] Originally by: Bish Ounen Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too. I don't have to make a thread. CCP Grimmi TOLD YOU, in this very thread. See below. My highlights, for emphasis. On the flip side, it's not my job to do your intel work for you. Go do some footwork and find out for yourself. Even if I told you who was using the tools, would you trust me? Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings, The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer. Regards, GM Grimmi Lead Game Master Thanks for the backup Reuser. Note too, that even if you DID tell them here in the forums, you would be banned for it. They are just trolling. Trying to discredit anyone that likes BACON with one logical fallacy after another, making emotional arguments rather than reasoned discourse. Best of luck with BACON, I hope to see your new projects soon. I like the part where you ignore Grimmi stating that CCP is working to prevent BACON and similar programs from working properly, and completely missed him giving it the thumbs down, but not outright stating it's an exploit because of a very simple reason. I'll let you figure out the reason. Hint: It has been stated in the thread since Grimmi's post.
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:50:00 - [975] Originally by: Thorradin If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area. And I do not personally think this would be a bad thing at all, I think it should be encouraged. I differ from CCP in this view, but it is a matter of opinion. Given the current EULA situation, I would have no qualms about making such an app if it were possible (it might be).
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:50:00 - [976] Originally by: Thorradin So tell me, when you run BACON, do you watch local? You don't? Then BACON is taking action for you, it is replacing your need to watch local to protect yourself. If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area. 1. Yes, I generally watch local. Years of habit. 2. Good gravy, you're right! We can interface with our spaceships on a molecular level, but there is NO FREAKIN WAY our drones could tell us they are taking damage. Likewise, I have a HUGE FREAKIN advantage because I run a 24" monitor portrait right next to my 30" monitor. My 24" is ONLY used to display a vastly expanded local list. SPLOIT! Is there any way at all this discussion can return to valid, well-reasoned arguments?
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.30 01:52:00 - [977] Edited by: Cori4n on 30/04/2008 01:52:28 Originally by: Ki An Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game? Why does it contain tools such as reloading on session change that are only useful for what you would consider automation? Not to beat a dead horse, but why do we have an API again? Spreadsheets for industrialists, skill trainers!? Surely this could only be used for automation!?
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.30 02:02:00 - [978] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Thorradin So tell me, when you run BACON, do you watch local? You don't? Then BACON is taking action for you, it is replacing your need to watch local to protect yourself. If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area. 1. Yes, I generally watch local. Years of habit. 2. Good gravy, you're right! We can interface with our spaceships on a molecular level, but there is NO FREAKIN WAY our drones could tell us they are taking damage. Likewise, I have a HUGE FREAKIN advantage because I run a 24" monitor portrait right next to my 30" monitor. My 24" is ONLY used to display a vastly expanded local list. SPLOIT! Is there any way at all this discussion can return to valid, well-reasoned arguments? It's nice that you want your hand held when playing EVE, really, but CCP doesn't see it that way. Grimmi has already said they frown upon this, and Ouver has stated numerous times (last alliance was most recent), that local is not meant to be used as a tool for intel, yet you sit here all proud that you've made something he sees as a problem, into a bigger problem. Besides, your drones already tell you that they're taking damage. If you want to play a game without having to look at the screen then you have to accept your risks, instead of making some program that just shows how some players need a crutch. You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion: EVE : The Musical Age
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 02:13:00 - [979] Originally by: Thorradin You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion: EVE : The Musical Age You sensist poltroon. Why should your eyes get preference? More than that, all of those things are things that SHOULD be in EVE, from a usability standpoint. Game designers SHOULD take into account your ears. I don't know how many times I've knifed someone in COD4 that moved a little too loudly. CCP has neglected game audio so badly that most players play with it off. That say something to you? Lastly, if CCP is smart, they would hire Cesar. I've been in the software industry for many moons, and he's one of the best I've ever worked with, seen, or even heard mentioned. He translates ideas into reality with an amazing ease, speed, and clarity. I've personally dumped 100s of thousands of dollars of company money on projects Cesar would have shrugged off in a night. He's just that frelling good. (This coming from a person that has worked intimately with developers resolving issues on the fly for nationally-televised keynotes and addresses.) Again, can this discussion return to reality and well-reasoned discourse?
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.30 02:53:00 - [980] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Thorradin You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion: EVE : The Musical Age You sensist poltroon. Why should your eyes get preference? More than that, all of those things are things that SHOULD be in EVE, from a usability standpoint. Game designers SHOULD take into account your ears. I don't know how many times I've knifed someone in COD4 that moved a little too loudly. CCP has neglected game audio so badly that most players play with it off. That say something to you? Lastly, if CCP is smart, they would hire Cesar. I've been in the software industry for many moons, and he's one of the best I've ever worked with, seen, or even heard mentioned. He translates ideas into reality with an amazing ease, speed, and clarity. I've personally dumped 100s of thousands of dollars of company money on projects Cesar would have shrugged off in a night. He's just that frelling good. (This coming from a person that has worked intimately with developers resolving issues on the fly for nationally-televised keynotes and addresses.) Again, can this discussion return to reality and well-reasoned discourse? If all you can do is call names like a little child, I'll be done with you. Regardless, while I'm sure your friend is a good programmer, you and he both forget you're arguing in favor of a program that not only is automating a part of the game but is automating a part of the game CCP does not want to have exist, and is making it worse. It doesn't matter what you think really, CCP doesn't want tools like your to exist, and in due time, BACON will cease to function (using logserver anyways) and you'll have to actually play the game. This discussion can return to reality when people stop making absurd claims like "BACON doesn't automate anything". You think your safety net program should be a part of the game. I think th ability to not only pick exact warp distances should be in game, but that I should be able to trace you down, cloaked or not, and destroy you, and that players should not get to log out of the game in space and vanish from existence. Neither of us are going to get what we want, and that's good, because both would be bad for the game. And your eyes get preference because you are using a visual aspect of the game to give you information. Ask CCP to give sonar (or some other sort of scanner) once they fix local and nerf logserver info, and then you can have your audio system so that you don't have to pay as much attention to the game. Until then, you should be grateful CCP is going with the grey area response on your program, not that I believe for a second most people would stop using BACON if CCP told them to.

Phant Zon Minmatar No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.30 03:29:00 - [981] The saddest thing about this whole deal is it makes me realize that, despite my own mediocrity at MMO playing, there are hordes out there that make me look freaking elite. I have played EVE for nearly 3 years now. At least half, if not more, of that time was spent in low-sec and null-sec space. Yet I can count on one hand the number of times I have lost ships to other players when I was not actively out looking for a fight. Think about that. If you truly feel you need this application you are basically admitting that you are less capable than I. Phant Zon, whose official title is Bibly Herder, who looks like the love child of Mr T and some sort of yet undiscovered sea life. Who regularially flies ships fit in such a fashion as to make every dedicated PVPer incapacitated with laughter. A man whose brains are so scrambled by the vibrations of the righteous dub that composing this short post is a miracle and whose idea of a good time is streaking towards an enemy fleet in something as fragile as a used kleenex, as obvious and visible as a 7 foot African tribesman in the midst of a Klan rally, as devastating as a flurry of punches from a unusually anemic 5 year old girl. I am truly stunned and saddened. The Bilbies see all. Their anger is righteous. And they shall know no mercy. If gods ye have, look to them now. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.30 04:11:00 - [982] Originally by: Phant Zon A man whose brains are so scrambled by the vibrations of the righteous dub that composing this short post is a miracle... Regardless of your intentions, you've got great prose. +1!
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.30 04:18:00 - [983] This app gave me high cholesterol
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.30 05:13:00 - [984] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin This app gave me high cholesterol Rather looks to me like adrenaline, you're running around in the forums like mad ;) __________________________________ Originally by: Verlyn I know it's my own fault, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.04.30 06:09:00 - [985] For the record Reuser, editing your arguments after the fact reflects badly on you. Originally by: Reuser Does BACON do that? No, it doesn't. Stick to the topic at hand. BACON allows auto logoff with one simple modification. I defy you to name another publicly available EVE app that can be used in a similar manner. Originally by: Reuser Is a web page that automates the lookup of EVE mineral price information across ALL systems and markets, automatically detecting the system you are in more or less of automation than a system that plays a tone when someone enters a system? Or a skill is trained? The web page you presented as an example requires manual input to function. You select a region and press a button, it presents the information. It does not automatically update as you move from system to system - nor does it provide information hooks another program can use.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.30 07:16:00 - [986] Quote: BACON allows auto logoff with one simple modification. I defy you to name another publicly available EVE app that can be used in a similar manner. Plenty of privately available ones as is, according to CCP....what's the damned difference if it's now widespread public knowledge? CCP admits to other similar proggys being used. What trips my trigger though is the huge outcry that Joe Average now can get the same "level playing field" as the jackasses who use other lame progs. Props to the peeps who brought this all out into the light, for whatever reasons. Regardless, despite the aggravation of apparent double standards by some, I was always a rabid anti-remove-local type untill I learned about where these apps (public and private) get there data. So yeah, get rid of ALL these sorts of meta-gaming proggys by doing whatever it takes.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.30 07:18:00 - [987] Originally by: Diek Ran Originally by: Marcus TheMartin This app gave me high cholesterol Rather looks to me like adrenaline, you're running around in the forums like mad ;) frantically trying to find a defibrillator thats all
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.04.30 09:06:00 - [988] Reuser's comments are starting to diverge from what this thread is really about. I think this thread has run its course, and it needs to be locked.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.04.30 13:29:00 - [989] So do I, locked. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang Hug-A-Wrangler! FanFest 2008 "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."



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I know it's my own fault,BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!

I know it's my own fault,
BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!