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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:16:00 -
[61]
I love this public release of BACON.
Bumps up the removal of local on the dev timetable
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:18:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Hans Roaming The genie is out of the bottle, as the software is now open source (even if it wasn't it wouldn't be hard to reverse engineer) it doesn't matter that remote reporting has been taken off. Expect to see alliance wide hostile reporting apps where just having everyone run this in background will allow complete hostile enitity reporting to be automated across an alliances space. It's not that hard and would be quite lightweight for server and browser requirements as using AJAX you can plot positions in real time.
Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it. There is even one pvp alliance with a code genius who put together a similar tool for their citizens.
Originally by: Hans Roaming The logs have to go, simple as that.
The logs can't go. It's the logserver. CCP use it, players use it, for a lot more possible purposes then this. For instance testing on Sisi without the logserver is beyond pain.
Quite frankly, the problem strikes me not as this tool being around but it being in the open. After all, until this got out of the bag there were plenty other similar tools going round and in use, exploring other people's forums can not only be entertaining, but also shocking.
Originally by: Hans Roaming
Replaceing local with some form of active and passive scanning with IFF for 0.0 would be quite wonderful but probably is the subject for another topic.
Indeed, and agreed on both points. Perhaps this is a step in that direction, as the concept comes very close to such scanning, but it is realtime, requires no in game skills or modules, and has no countermechanism. I guess we will see what happens, there's been some references to that +ve / -ve list hack from back in the day (which again was only the hack which got public as there were several other in use, sounds familiar now), which got incorporated into EVE itself over time.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:19:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:21:47
Originally by: Pohbis Holy whining Batman!
You guys really think this program isn't in the hands of those that want to use it already?
Why don't you all direct your forum-energy at the real problem, local, instead of crying that your sense of fairness in EVE ( oh the irony ) has been shattered?
NO.
I am not going to succumb to the "local" problem when in fact this has nothing to do with local. It has to do with LOGGING.
I mentioned it earlier and I can mention it now. This sort of stuff can be used to read out damage reports coming in real time and possibly tell you how long you are going to have left based on the reports the logs show.
This has absolutely nothing to do with local and those that bring it up are direct proponents of the motive that this software has brought forth whether it be indirect or hostile.
Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it.
Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it!
*cries* Why are you guys trying to destroy EVE :((((((
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:23:00 -
[64]
This tool just reads local?
Do I have that right? EVE RELATED CONTENT |
Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:26:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 20/04/2008 10:26:38
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:21:47
Originally by: Pohbis Holy whining Batman!
You guys really think this program isn't in the hands of those that want to use it already?
Why don't you all direct your forum-energy at the real problem, local, instead of crying that your sense of fairness in EVE ( oh the irony ) has been shattered?
NO.
I am not going to succumb to the "local" problem when in fact this has nothing to do with local. It has to do with LOGGING.
I mentioned it earlier and I can mention it now. This sort of stuff can be used to read out damage reports coming in real time and possibly tell you how long you are going to have left based on the reports the logs show.
This has absolutely nothing to do with local and those that bring it up are direct proponents of the motive that this software has brought forth whether it be indirect or hostile.
Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it.
Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it!
*cries* Why are you guys trying to destroy EVE :((((((
Log parsing apps in many cases provide utilities that should have been in the game from day 1. Various calculation and co-ordination utilities that our computers are capable of now should be available to advanced multi star-system alliances thousands of years from now.
The apps are only a problem when combined with the free intel tool that is local.
Logs should be encrypted, CCP should provide official versions of these apps in the game and local needs to die. If the public revelation of BACON speeds this up....so much the better.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:26:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it.
Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it!
I was referring to stuff of across the last year, and in one case of someone's citizen alliance I infiltrated for fun ganks on another toon for far longer. Such forum presences.
I don't think BACON was simply put together to force CCP in a typical knee jerk reaction. I do think CCP will watch this with interest however, not for what we like or dislike, but for continuing the evolution of EVE - regardless of what we think, it is their sandbox after all. We're just the mice :P
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:31:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted....
That's all that needs to be done!
I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it.
The coin works on both sides, yet we see EVE working at peak efficiency. PVP happens, carebears still get their peace in highsec and large alliance wars are duked out... everything is peachy. EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME. You can make the orange look like an apple but the orange will never taste like an apple. (Read that as though we can have the appearance of what it would be like in real life the experience will never be exactly as it would be in real life.)
:( I'm seriously hurt over this.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:32:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME.
You sir, just shattered my world.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:47:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Reuser
Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool. We've bent over backwards to be transparent, CCP compliant, and open with this tool. We've tried to give EVERYONE access to the same things at the same time, while balancing being able to release a usable product.
Again, open source, GPL, and accountable to CCP. I wish I could do more for you, because quite honestly, I think you and we are on the right path.
This is my PERSONAL opinion, not a statement of Gunfleet policy. I think you will find that most of us agree with this post, however.
There are large differences with using tools such as this and the services Chribba does. And imo tools like this are gamebreaking as it completely changes the gameplay as you dont even have to pay attention to local anymore.
Automatisation like this is bad for the game.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:49:00 -
[70]
Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
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Docain
M. Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:53:00 -
[71]
I'm really looking forward to Ambulation. This will make us forget about this. Or maybe not.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:58:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Durzel Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
In some ways yes, but then again the more people that use such a tool the bigger the problem. But anyway CCP should take steps to stop all such tools, not just BACON.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:59:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted....
That's all that needs to be done!
I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it.
The coin works on both sides, yet we see EVE working at peak efficiency. PVP happens, carebears still get their peace in highsec and large alliance wars are duked out... everything is peachy. EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME. You can make the orange look like an apple but the orange will never taste like an apple. (Read that as though we can have the appearance of what it would be like in real life the experience will never be exactly as it would be in real life.)
:( I'm seriously hurt over this.
There have been rumblings from CCP about the local issue right back to Castor (can't comment on 'before'). Perhaps this will serve to focus minds. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:04:00 -
[74]
Originally by: MassonA Well it would be Hydra. Yes I went there.
Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:04:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Durzel Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
Well, look what just popped up in the thread on this in the technology section.
I wonder who else is going to come clean >.<
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Papa Ina
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:05:00 -
[76]
Looks like just a reskin of beetracker. Not only cheating but being unoriginal too. You should probably credit Goonswarm in there too.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:06:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hoshi Anyone here have actually tried to run the log server for any extended periods of time? The extra lag and general unresponsiveness it creates more than offsets any positive effects.
From the Beekeeper page: Start the Log Server. Enable tools -> Server Mode -option, set linecount to 1000 to prevent lag.
While you make a fair point, I can't help but wonder if this has already been addressed.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:06:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted....
That's all that needs to be done!
I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it.
:( I'm seriously hurt over this.
sry sig but local is a massive problem and if you can't see it you are missing a huge issue with eve that is limitinf risk vs reward and stunuting eve development.
Join us in the Exploration channel.
The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty. |
Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:08:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Durzel Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
In some ways yes, but then again the more people that use such a tool the bigger the problem. But anyway CCP should take steps to stop all such tools, not just BACON.
Well, there are different ways of thinking about it really.
Some believe the less people that know about it the better - therefore problem isn't as widespread. That logic unfortunately means that there are an unknown number of people playing the game that have an artificial advantage that they perhaps shouldn't, and the rest of the playerbase just have to lump it.
There are others - myself included - that believe that if there are "exploits" out there like this then it's best that everyone knows about it, until it's fixed, so that a) it raises the priority of fixing it (as appropriate) and b) no one is at an unfair disadvantage.
Personally speaking purely as an interested observer I had no clue apps like this existed or were possible, as I'm sure many other people didn't, and if it weren't for the debate I wouldn't even know there were other versions around (i.e. Beetracker). There could be any number of other closed-source apps floating around being used by big alliances with more nefarious intentions or wider implications for the game. Just because we don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't already in use - BACON just shows what is possible.
I must admit also I find it quite interesting that most of the resistance seems to be from those who would be most affected by it (e.g. pirates). Part of me wonders whether this is genuine concern about the direction of the game, fear that their tactics (cheap?) will become less effective, or jealousy/anger that other people will have a tool (BACON) that they already have a comparable version of themselves - or a combination of the above.
The flip side of BACON is that you could easily write a similar tool to track suicide gank targets, etc. It seems that most of the anger is fuelled by the fact that BACON is principally an "anti piracy" tool in its existing guise.
A lot of what I've read in this thread isn't very objective at all, it's predominately people moaning that their way of life/griefing/ganking is going to be affected by this....
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:11:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Durzel I must admit also I find it quite interesting that most of the resistance seems to be from those who would be most affected by it (e.g. pirates). Part of me wonders whether this is genuine concern about the direction of the game, fear that their tactics (cheap?) will become less effective, or jealousy/anger that other people will have a tool (BACON) that they already have a comparable version of themselves - or a combination of the above.
Tactics and the way the game is are directly related to each other.
If you remove a pirate's ability to kill people, you remove piracy from the game. If you remove piracy from EVE, you are forced to declare war. And if you are forced to declare war, EVE loses its risk factor, and low-sec becomes "safe". :(
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:15:00 -
[81]
And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
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Gojyu
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:18:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yup. If people are able to do this kind of thing, the ability to resize/move some buttons seems kinda moot as far as game advantage goes
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:19:00 -
[83]
I don't like this app for several reasons.
I really hope this will bump up the local-issue on CCP's "to do list" tho.
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Garmon
Minmatar Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:19:00 -
[84]
I am EXTREMELY surprised that CCP allows this
Garmon is surprised __________________________________ Me being an hero in my battle boat
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:24:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Durzel on 20/04/2008 11:25:44 I don't think we can be too hard on the BACON devs, they've clearly only made public what already existed in other forms already for God knows how long. If anything the people moaning about this should be thankful that this "game breaking issue" is out in the open.
To use an FPS analogy, how would you feel if you were playing a game and you kept getting headshot by someone consistently? Maybe you'd think "that guy must be cheating" but then you'd probably just figure that since there weren't any known exploits/aimbots for the game that the guy "must've just been really good". Then someone publicly releases an aimbot that had previously only been available in closed circles and suddenly you release that the people you'd previously credited with good skill were actually cheating.
Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field and forces CCP to clarify one way or the other whether its an exploit, and take steps that outlaw now only BACON but the other countless behind-closed-doors apps doing the same thing (or worse) none of us know about that are in circulation.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:27:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Durzel I don't think we can be too hard on the BACON devs, they've clearly only made public what already existed in other forms already for God knows how long. If anything the people moaning about this should be thankful that this "game breaking issue" is out on the open.
To use an FPS analogy, how would you feel if you were playing a game and you kept getting headshot by someone consistently? Maybe you'd think "that guy must be cheating" but then you'd probably just figure that since there weren't any known exploits/aimbots for the game that the guy "must've just been really good". Then someone publicly releases an aimbot and suddenly you release that the people you'd previously credited with good skill were actually cheating.
Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field and forces CCP to clarify one way or the other whether its an exploit, and take steps that outlaw now only BACON but the other countless behind-closed-doors apps doing the same thing (or worse) none of us know about that are in circulation.
Yes we can, this is a box of pandora. It's no different from inventing the atomic bomb and then shout out to the world proudly "LOOK WHAT WE MADE!"
The programmer of is this program and it's predecessors (guess what, goons again) didn't care about the implications. Fukc them!
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:33:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Pohbis on 20/04/2008 11:35:38
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yes yes... tools reading log-files is exactly the same as skinning and moving buttons around on the screen.
You honor your sig, good Sir
As for the matter at hand. I think it speaks volumes that some people in here actually say they'd rather have this issue swept under the carpet and let a select few use such tools, instead of having them out in the open and be dealt with.
There's no point in arguing with such people. They aren't concerned about 'fairness', they are after 'perceived fairness'.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:34:00 -
[88]
they made it; fukc them they're proud of it; fukc them
they made it open source; admirable, but it doesn't make up for their first two mistakes.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:34:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
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shantaa
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:35:00 -
[90]
This is quite disturbing. As these 3rd party products are hooking into eve's log server program not the eve client. The log server monitors more than what a pilot can see. Coupled with the fact that any competent programmer could merge the data from multiple log servers. Thus, providing real time tactical data for an entire region! This log server exploit needs to be stamped out.
I doubt changing local will solve this problem, unless the change is also reflected in the log server. Log encryption might work, but it would have to be good encryption to prevent it from being *****ed and thus useless.
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