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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:37:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way.
That's what should be done, then we can be over with this.
I hope this is gone by Monday.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:39:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:40:23 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:39:53
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yes yes... tools reading log-files is exactly the same as skinning and moving buttons around on the screen.
You honor your sig, good Sir
As for the matter at hand. I think it speaks volumes that some people in here actually say they'd rather have this issue swept under the carpet and let a select few use such tools, instead of having them out in the open and be dealt with.
There's no point in arguing with such people. They aren't concerned about 'fairness', they are after 'perceived fairness'.
This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:39:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Cesar Malari For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk.
Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment -KB- |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:40:00 -
[94]
Originally by: shantaa This is quite disturbing. As these 3rd party products are hooking into eve's log server program not the eve client.
No they don't. That would be against the EULA. They read the logfiles generated on the users HD.
That's on of the issues. CCP can't check if people use this tool or not.
They sure as hell could see if people we're sniffing the server logs. Not that it matters, CCPs log don't show anything
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:41:00 -
[95]
Originally by: shantaa This is quite disturbing. As these 3rd party products are hooking into eve's log server program not the eve client. The log server monitors more than what a pilot can see. Coupled with the fact that any competent programmer could merge the data from multiple log servers. Thus, providing real time tactical data for an entire region! This log server exploit needs to be stamped out.
I doubt changing local will solve this problem, unless the change is also reflected in the log server. Log encryption might work, but it would have to be good encryption to prevent it from being *****ed and thus useless.
It's quite scary really.
As a programmer myself I'm already having thoughts about what could be possible with this. I'm sure it would be fairly trivial to feed this data from various sources (people in the same alliance all running the same tool) into a centralised database and ending up with an intel network that updates in real-time. Want advance warning that a band of people you've been monitoring are on the move? Want to track the movements of individuals/groups and be able to compare it with previous data to work out patterns of movement? The possibilities are endless.
The scary part is - for all you or I know it's already been done.......
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:44:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way.
That's what should be done, then we can be over with this.
I hope this is gone by Monday.
I don't think encryption is the answer, as it only plugs a hole for so long. And then you're back to square one where the few have it and the masses are just happily ignorant of it.
I think they would have to change their ScatterEvent method calls or whatever it is that does the local updates to make them unuseable for us to be able to call it "fixed".
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:45:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tzar'rim This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
Yes. I've played WoW.
Mods cover a broad spectrum tho and what you'll see is that people are asking for skin mods. Like changing the graphics for the UI and re-sizing and moving the UI. Most aren't asking for a scripting language to do in-game macros.
Not that it matters. There's a ton of tools out there to do that already.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:45:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
*snip*
And my point was that now that this is in the open it will be firmly on CCP's radar. Without BACON being publicly released CCP might not have any clue that this sort of thing was going on or even possible.
Now they do - and everyone is ultimately better off as a result either by CCP doing something to stop ALL apps like this working (e.g. encrypting the logs), or legitimising it - either way I'd rather have a climate where everyone has the same advantages available to them rather than a select few.
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Garmon
Minmatar Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:46:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Cesar Malari For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk.
Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics.
I like the post you do __________________________________ Me being an hero in my battle boat
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:47:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Cesar Malari For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk.
Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics.
This is a serious issue that doesn't need flamebait like this. If this get's allowed (no, it does not yet have CCP approval) into the game it set a dangerous precedent --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius.
You wouldn't happen to work in the record industry, would you?
Local encrypted logs? Honestly, how long do you think it would take to break the encryption?
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Elendar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[102]
didn't ccp recently state that real isk selling hurts the game? hope they ban a tool that makes it even easier for the farmers ---------------------------- There is no sig |
Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way.
That's what should be done, then we can be over with this.
I hope this is gone by Monday.
I don't think encryption is the answer, as it only plugs a hole for so long. And then you're back to square one where the few have it and the masses are just happily ignorant of it.
I think they would have to change their ScatterEvent method calls or whatever it is that does the local updates to make them unuseable for us to be able to call it "fixed".
PGP encryption would most likely work and fits a model where one entity decrypts whilst any number of untrusted (i.e. us ) clients encrypt. I'm over-simplifying it though.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[104]
Hm, now people dont even have to pay attention to Local to get intel they shouldnt get in the first place.
Gr8.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:49:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
instas -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:49:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 20/04/2008 11:51:00 I am just halping out proublems. Teh guy siad it is in goodwil and it is gpl but the src for .2 is not out. I am halping to see no viruses ... I am halping comunity ...
Ok, find. I won't download and read src if you don't want me too. I perfer not too halp anymore.
Sowwy. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment -KB- |
Gojyu
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:50:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:40:23 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:39:53
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yes yes... tools reading log-files is exactly the same as skinning and moving buttons around on the screen.
You honor your sig, good Sir
As for the matter at hand. I think it speaks volumes that some people in here actually say they'd rather have this issue swept under the carpet and let a select few use such tools, instead of having them out in the open and be dealt with.
There's no point in arguing with such people. They aren't concerned about 'fairness', they are after 'perceived fairness'.
This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
I agree 100%. You let people mod the game and you have no idea what will be created. Imagine, someone could potentially create something that was extreme enough to, say, warn people when hostiles are entering local. Such an event should never be allowed to occur in eve
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:50:00 -
[108]
I can hardly show any surprise to this being used, or having been used (in one form or another) in the past. When an app like this pops up, everyone will argue over its' merit / argue that it's an exploit; but the fact that remains it's arisen because the game lacked proper Intel Management in the GUI. While people seem to think 'BAWWWW Remove Local it's not fair to piwates BAWWWW', the evidence is more that: CCP has not done enough in the department of a customizable GUI. Their focus has been (GOD KNOWS WHY) everything but what people want in this game (and lol you think they 'listen').
I'm not going to put the blame purely on CCP here, there's only so much they are capable of with all the celebratory galas, self congratulation and dealing with their own mistakes on a patch to patch basis (while really not fixing anything) they simply don't have time to create something useful (oh wait, female corpses. huzzah!).
The fact is CCP knew about this a LONG time ago, could have beaten it to the punch long before Trinity by remodeling the GUI and Intel processes (like adding customization, sounds, etc.) but did nothing about it. Why people are here, arguing about it now is purely a lack of introspection. You're all looking more for a debate and not pressing hard enough against the people that should have made this unnecessary in the first place.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:52:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Tzar'rim This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
Yes. I've played WoW.
Mods cover a broad spectrum tho and what you'll see is that people are asking for skin mods. Like changing the graphics for the UI and re-sizing and moving the UI. Most aren't asking for a scripting language to do in-game macros.
Not that it matters. There's a ton of tools out there to do that already.
And you think that if CCP gives the tools, options and possibilities to make skin mods and stuff liek that, that it's going to stop right there? that all of a sudden the liberties and possiblities do not create MORE problems like we have them now?
I don't have problems with people wanting to resize their UI, but I see the REALITY that this opens yet another box of pandora and in that respect I'd rather be on the safe side and NOT allow for mods or UI changes.
As you so brilliantly showed closing your eyes and ears for the possible implication of allowing mods and UI changes does not keep them away.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:56:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Durzel As a programmer myself I'm already having thoughts about what could be possible with this. I'm sure it would be fairly trivial to feed this data from various sources (people in the same alliance all running the same tool) into a centralised database and ending up with an intel network that updates in real-time. Want advance warning that a band of people you've been monitoring are on the move? Want to track the movements of individuals/groups and be able to compare it with previous data to work out patterns of movement? The possibilities are endless.
The scary part is - for all you or I know it's already been done.......
There are two (0.0 PVP) alliances that I know of who use what you are referring to, a central intel network. With cloakers stationed around various spots it gives them a real time tracking capability as well as nifty advance warning. While those two each have their own tool, and while each uses it on only high level in their respective alliances, the case stands .. what you describe already is in use. Has been in use for quite some time even.
Now one of the two uses it for advance warning when going after towers and stuff, as long as the alts are in place properly it gives them ample warning of what is coming but that is about it. The other is more advanced, it stores and lets you filter data collected over time and annotate references.
The heat visible sofar here, is not about local, or about the logserver, or about this BACON tool. It is about the visibility of the tool. The scale of use isn't changing much, after all given how a similar tool is in rather predominant use in several 0.0 alliances (strangely enough those rather err unlike Hydra) it comes down to the announcement.
For the first time one of those lot who do this kind of stuff put it out here. For all to see and use, rather then their own alliances. We can fool ourselves in thinking that this will lead to major spread, but let's face it, in the concept as it is the place of use is deep space and deep low sec, places where the folks run around who already use this kind of stuff, and have used for a long time.
What I like is how the new visibility of these tools now shows the way to a new dynamic. Instead of a static medium, with these tools Local is becoming dynamic in interaction. What lacks is a typical EVE mechanism to tweak & balance. Regardless of the operational principle, there are no skills or modules required here. EVE is not a submarine game, so I doubt a type of ping / sonar / active / passive scanning mechanism is feasible, but I'm sure CCP will have several lines of thoughts here.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:58:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade If this get's allowed and no, it does not yet have CCP approval, it sets a dangerous precedent
I'm afraid you are wrong. CCP verdict has been quite clear already. They see nothing against the EULA, and are taking no action against this. All they do is the normal reservation that they can always change their mind. Look up the thread in the Technology section.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:04:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Koala Bare At least 2 0.0 alliances use something similar
Please name and shame.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:04:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Elendar didn't ccp recently state that real isk selling hurts the game? hope they ban a tool that makes it even easier for the farmers
Just for the heck of it, and in the light of the recent hickup of that source code leak, I've been google & forum whoring.
The amount of macro's and hacks and injection tools for EVE have kinda scared me off my chair, I never thought there would be as much of this crap for EVE as for Lineage or WoW. Unnerving to say the least.
But, none of those "tools" (I can't call a cheating app real software tbfh) have or make any use of the logserver. Going over the list they all use something called screen detection or code injection. They interact straight with the client, basically.
I was kinda hoping there actually would be a tangible relation between the impact of this tool and the concept of cheating / macro / farming and all that, that way it could be posed as an argument. Trouble is, those "tools" are way more advanced then this.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:11:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde I'm gonna say what we're all thinking:
"So *THAT'S* how Hydra keeps their space..."
Seriously irresponsible program. CCP gave them the opening but they should have the self respect and dignity to know better. And BACON users should be just ashamed. Probably arnt, but should be.
Shame on X player for using EvE-Mon.
Shame on X player for using EvE Meep.
Same complaints. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:12:00 -
[115]
Not familer with EVEMeep, but EVE Mon is, essentially, a calculator alarm clock. I dont think it's quite as bad.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:14:00 -
[116]
As remarked by others you can't really compare the likes of Evemon, EFT, etc with this. Those programs are essentially just "advanced guides" - they don't give you any kind of realtime advantage ingame.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:14:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Koala Bare
Originally by: Gabriel Karade If this get's allowed and no, it does not yet have CCP approval, it sets a dangerous precedent
I'm afraid you are wrong. CCP verdict has been quite clear already. They see nothing against the EULA, and are taking no action against this. All they do is the normal reservation that they can always change their mind. Look up the thread in the Technology section.
Let me again, quote the last developer response to this:
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
There is no EULA violation, but there is also no CCP approval of it. I'm sure we shall hear more from someone more senior soon... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Croziac
Gallente Dark Zone Security Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:17:00 -
[118]
This is pretty sad. It gives an unfair advantage to players that are semi-afk. CCP now just needs to create a delay of like 10mins to the logfiles or wheaver so they can counteract this.
This basically suggests that you don't even need to care about local anymore.
And as others have pointed out its against the spirit of the game.
What next?
As for some other posts in regards to other programs. EVE-Mon & EVE-MEEP do not give an advantage of something similar to this. One keeps track of skills, while the other keeps a track of industry. Kind of different don't you think?
Thanks, Croziac
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:18:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Durzel As remarked by others you can't really compare the likes of Evemon, EFT, etc with this. Those programs are essentially just "advanced guides" - they don't give you any kind of realtime advantage ingame.
They do cut down on research people can do outside of it. Same kind of real complaint here. "Vigilance" over "Passive" watching. With EvE Mon, you just plug in what you want and it automatically suggests the best way to go about it. Makes it easier in the end, right?
-----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:18:00 -
[120]
Jeez... I'm tempted to just say screw fixing scanning and can local all together if this program gets sanctioned.
I'd rather EVE everyone crawling around blindly in the dark depths of space than every pilot having a mobile system wide Brinks Home Security System.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
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