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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:42:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Sidewayzracer PLZ Discuss this
heh heh - that's the way the logserver works and unless they drop local announces from it (or use some kind of encryption) then tools like this are here to stay...
a while ago i'd been working on something similar to act as a remote intel bot for major alliances - dropping pilots names into an intel channel... you can bet that there's plenty of this stuff already going on out there - long before bacon; all bacon has done is bring it to the frenzied drooling mouths of the spastic masses...
and now they've open sourced it - any 13-yr old script kiddie that can write hello world in winforms is LOVING life...
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:48:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Sidewayzracer Now i was doing some asking arround and general flaming people for using this program and stumbled upon a few Hydra members and users of BACON. I have a few quotes from them id like to share and i was wondering if CCP and the rest of the player base can confirm this.
Ulath Safire > u get 3 - 5 SEC warning. before local updates..
Sidewayzracer > hold u said it tells you some1 entered the system b4 u would normal c them enter the local channle?
FisherKing > when u enter a system... the logs are updated first... before u enter local..
FisherKing > so..3-5 sec warning.. depending on how much lag.. u have
PLZ Discuss this
So is there a built in delay before someone appears in local or is this purely lag related?
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Haleuth
Amarr Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:54:00 -
[543]
I wonder where this will all end?
How about you modify the program to tell me when someone has out bid my buy/sell orders. What about an audible warning when each kernite rock pops, so i can afk mine better. Even better would be if you could modify it to give me a warning when my tank isnt going to hold,preferably before i warp into the mission/leave the station.
You see what im saying??
I find this program isnt in the spirit of eve online. The ccp devs should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this. The EULA isn't worth a stitch now imo. No difference between bacon and using a macro for mining.
Haleuth |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:57:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Haleuth The ccp devs should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this.
You say that as if you (or anyone else for that matter) haven't given an ounce of thought to why CCP hasn't disallowed it.
Or... have you?
Have you considered that there might be a logical reason for that?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Sidewayzracer
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:58:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Haleuth The ccp devs should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this.
You say that as if you (or anyone else for that matter) haven't given an ounce of thought to why CCP hasn't disallowed it.
Or... have you?
Have you considered that there might be a logical reason for that?
That so called logical reason seems to be rather illogical tbfh go figure
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:59:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
You say that as if you (or anyone else for that matter) haven't given an ounce of thought to why CCP hasn't disallowed it.
Or... have you?
Have you considered that there might be a logical reason for that?
They haven't disallowed it because they can't enforce a ban. It's the players that use this that should be ashamed of themselves. I firmly believe CCP will do whatever they can to cull this blatant cheating.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:03:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Haleuth Even better would be if you could modify it to give me a warning when my tank isnt going to hold
that is an excellent suggestion and very very doable...
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KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:14:00 -
[548]
LOL! 19 full pages of epic whining! This is great! Keep it up girls, this stuff is funnier than suiciding 30 noobs with a SmartBombAgeddon!
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:16:00 -
[549]
If this gets allowed it's another blow to pira... Suprise deconstruction. We've had enough of that, it's difficult to catch aware players already, wanna make it afk business?
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Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:22:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Karentaki Edited by: Karentaki on 21/04/2008 20:54:34 I just looked up the EULA and despite what CCP have said, I still feel this program breaches it:
Originally by: EVE ONLINE EULA CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
EDIT:
Originally by: TERMS OF SERVICE 21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. ... 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
The red bold text refers to third-party software which modifies the UI (sound is included in the UI), or otherwise imparts beneficial effects on the player (Alerts of war targets qualify as this).
EDIT: Also added some stuff from the TOS which outlaws all third-party apps unless they are expressly permitted by CCP (as is the case with EveMon and others)
Now, if anyone wishes to say that this is NOT in breach of the EULA, please explain how.
First Bold: Your not modifying anything! Your not changing how the game is played either your changing how you react to the game not the playing of the game as it does not affect gameplay for anyone else the gameplay itself is not changing.
2nd Bold: Your NOT MODIFYING ANYTHING! 2nd part of that your not gaining beneficial actions you wouldn't otherwise have in the normal game play. i.e. local and standings
last bold: Your not creating any 3rd party apps for the game your creating them for the logs that the log server produces so it would be more closely related to apps for the logserver but thats not covered. Even then its for the logs and not any of CCPs software if ya have a problem with it ask them to remove the logserver. The last part of this bold is ******** because CCP has already stated in another post these are offcially not breaking any rules so encouraging others to use is is not any violation.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:24:00 -
[551]
The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:24:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
Originally by: Karentaki STUFF
First Bold: Your not modifying anything! Your not changing how the game is played either your changing how you react to the game not the playing of the game as it does not affect gameplay for anyone else the gameplay itself is not changing.
2nd Bold: Your NOT MODIFYING ANYTHING! 2nd part of that your not gaining beneficial actions you wouldn't otherwise have in the normal game play. i.e. local and standings
last bold: Your not creating any 3rd party apps for the game your creating them for the logs that the log server produces so it would be more closely related to apps for the logserver but thats not covered. Even then its for the logs and not any of CCPs software if ya have a problem with it ask them to remove the logserver. The last part of this bold is ******** because CCP has already stated in another post these are offcially not breaking any rules so encouraging others to use is is not any violation.
That's just bending words so they suit you.
This is****gotry, no more, no less.
You have my utmost contempt.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:25:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Please do share you idea of a countermeasure against this.
Please.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:27:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
I weep for your lack of brain.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Oh, well that's just fine and dandy then. Hey fellas, let's create a program that lets us warp directly to any player in a system. I mean, if the carebears don't like it, they can just create a program to counter it. That's how Eve should be played. Create a program that does what you want.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:28:00 -
[555]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 15:33:51
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth First Bold: Your not modifying anything! Your not changing how the game is played either your changing how you react to the game not the playing of the game as it does not affect gameplay for anyone else the gameplay itself is not changing.
2nd Bold: Your NOT MODIFYING ANYTHING! 2nd part of that your not gaining beneficial actions you wouldn't otherwise have in the normal game play. i.e. local and standings
last bold: Your not creating any 3rd party apps for the game your creating them for the logs that the log server produces so it would be more closely related to apps for the logserver but thats not covered. Even then its for the logs and not any of CCPs software if ya have a problem with it ask them to remove the logserver. The last part of this bold is ******** because CCP has already stated in another post these are offcially not breaking any rules so encouraging others to use is is not any violation.
Please make the effort to read at least the last two or three pages of thread.
Your points have already been dealt with in full and you are completely wrong on every count.
Try here.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:33:00 -
[556]
even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:34:00 -
[557]
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
They could start by banning all it's vocal supporters.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:35:00 -
[558]
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
They should alter logfile code so it broke bacon.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:35:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 22/04/2008 15:28:16
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
I weep for your lack of brain.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Oh, well that's just fine and dandy then. Hey fellas, let's create a program that lets us warp directly to any player in a system. I mean, if the carebears don't like it, they can just create a program to counter it. That's how Eve should be played. Create a program that does what you want.
A question: Is this BRUCE's official stance on this issue?
Ki An, this is my personal stance. I am in no leadership position at BRUCE and I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:36:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 22/04/2008 15:37:48
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:37:00 -
[561]
Originally by: Euriti
That's just bending words so they suit you.
BACON itself is technically not a violation of the EULA, but it does require a bit of knowledge of software architecture to understand that.
The normally-bannable "bots" intercept data between the client and the server and modify it. BACON simply watches the logs without modifying them and then alerts you when an important change happens - not dissimilar to using the API to alert you when you sold something.
However, the fact that you need to understand the architecture to see the difference between BACON and am Aimbot, I think, shows exactly how invasive it is to gameplay regardless of technicalities.
I don't like BACON because I don't like the fact that a logged chatroom is used as an intelligence tool in the first place. It seemed dumb from the moment I signed up for EvE (I still don't know why they didn't make local function the same way as newb corp chat in the first place) and I merely tolerate it, though I would have to agree everyone running BACON will have me second guess that (no that's not a threat to CCP).
4 years later, I hope CCP will risk a major change to the way EvE is played and replace Local (counterintuitive to everyone) with "defensive scanners" or the like.
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Aram Thracius
Amarr SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:37:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Malcanis I feel sorry for anyone who thinks they need a tool like this.
Me too ------------------------------ We are all doomed! |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:37:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 22/04/2008 15:28:16
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
I weep for your lack of brain.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Oh, well that's just fine and dandy then. Hey fellas, let's create a program that lets us warp directly to any player in a system. I mean, if the carebears don't like it, they can just create a program to counter it. That's how Eve should be played. Create a program that does what you want.
A question: Is this BRUCE's official stance on this issue?
Ki An, this is my personal stance. I am in no leadership position at BRUCE and I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
Why should this be used? Why should you be warned if you aren't aware.
This is yet another nail in the coffin for suprise deconstruction (Sound nicer than piracy). This is another nail in the coffin for non-mutual pvp.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:38:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Ki An, this is my personal stance. I am in no leadership position at BRUCE and I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
Well, you represent you alliance on the forums, and you are obviously a carebear of the worst sort. If I was Bruce leadership i'd kick you out post haste.
Also, you have been told several times that you are full of **** when you claim CCP has approved this. They specifically mentioned that we SHOULD NOT TAKE THEIR RESPONSE AS A CCP APPROVAL. I mean, do you need me to draw you a diagram?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:38:00 -
[565]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
They could start by banning all it's vocal supporters.
And why is that? CCP has approved that tool and that is good enough. Again,if you don't like it,don't use it.But you or anyone else, have no business telling anyone how to play or what tools to use from the moment the method of playing and the tools don't break the EULA or ToS EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:39:00 -
[566]
Edited by: Euriti on 22/04/2008 15:39:41
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 22/04/2008 15:37:48
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
WoW has "Warden" which scans for illegal processes and then notifies a GM.
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Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:40:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Euriti
WoW has "Warden" which scans for illegal processes and then notifies a GM.
I've never played wow but from what i hear its not working =)
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:40:00 -
[568]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
You are not being truthful when you imply that CCP have given full and final approval to BACON.
Please refer to my earlier response.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:42:00 -
[569]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
You are not being truthful when you imply that CCP have given full and final approval to BACON.
Please refer to my earlier response.
While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:42:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
You mean VAC (Valve Anti-Cheat)?
Trust me, given CCP's huge amount of fail when it comes to programming, the last thing I want them doing is scanning any processes on my system. Who knows how many more boot.ini snafus will pop up. NO THANK YOU.
I'll simply opt not to use BACON tyvm. Local is good enough for me.
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