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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Skipdog	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:32:00 - [931] Originally by: gavhriel EVE was dominated by small gangs of nano hacs and recons and every new player that joined the game found out that he needs 1 year+ of trainning to be actualy any good at pvp. After the changes you might actually have a chance in an assault frig to kill a hac :) I'm a new player and acknowledge that my opinion...well, doesn't matter. But here it is anyways. What I have learned in my first few weeks in 0.0 space is that if you want to fly in small gangs and have any chance to DO anything, you have one type of ship to fly: nanos. Otherwise, join a fleet, and realize that the only thing that affects the outcome of battles, is pure circumstance(we have more ships than you and a better fleet composition) or FC decisions(as in, the FC makes a mistake and we die, or the FC decides we can't take on THAT fleet, so we simply leave). The "action" of fleet battles for me so far, has been "oooh lets see what solo moron we can happen to tackle and then pod with 8973943 ships" or "OH CRAP WE JUST GOT JUMPED BY A SUPERIOR FLEET! OH NOES!" and to me, it just isn't that fun. Small gang roaming is fun(if you have nano ships). Why should nano ships be the only ones you can fly if you want to have small roaming gang fun?
Veldya Caldari Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 - [932] Edited by: Veldya on 25/07/2008 17:33:24 Originally by: BuIIseye Originally by: Veldya Yeah, because hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage doesn't need fixing, does it? Missiles didn't need a stealth boost, they needed a loud freaking bandwagon boost. Missile damage is reduced based on speed and target painters don't really help because they don't address the speed element while you have more options to improve the tracking difficulties. No, you missunderstand, hitting nano ships with rockets and light missiles for 0 damage because of the speed is the same as missing with gun's and drone not having enough speed to keep up with it's target. Now with the MWD being "nerfed", afterburning ships will still be able to elude guns with the use of tracking disruptors (even while webbed), while missiles will reach and hit for full damage anytime, everytime (because defenders don't work as they should and smartbombs are fairly rare in non-capital combat and don't brush off all incoming missiles) While it may not be a big difference on paper, its a increase in effectiveness on the field, so basicaly missile ships > the rest, and alot of people will start training for caldari. Missile boats are already very good, just underestimated because not all the people that uses them know what they are doing. And target painter isn't specific for missile boats only, nor is it the solution for missile boats against nanoship, ever tried webbing your target? The problem is rockets and light missiles are by design the Caldari weapon of choice against the fastest ships and there is nothing a pilot can do, no rig or implant combo that can change the fact that EVERY missile will always hit for ZERO damage. Their damage is crap to begin with, they are designed for frigate based combat but you have HACs with massive resists and better than cruiser stats that can't be damaged by anti-frigate weapons. It is just broken, it is WAY too easy to push a ship into the no-damage zone. Tracking works very differently. You can be going 30km/s and get hit for full damage depending on your direction, you have to actually force the guns to track faster than their tracking to cause them issues. Someone can fly straight into a missile and avoid all the damage, missiles typically have a significantly faster velocity than their explosion velocity, so by definitition their payload is worse than their propellant. They nerfed the crap out of the missiles because of fast ships and then made the nightmare that is nano ships. There is just no counter to them other than other nano ships. It is not the basis of EVE to have one type of ship dominate so many ship classes by default with one build type. Having something that out of balance is bad for the game. Everyone forced to nano is not the answer.
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 - [933] Originally by: Wesley Baird Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Wesley Baird Perfect example...carebear alliance + carebear opinion Anyone surprised?! Because you of course are entirely unbiased, sensible, and have the entire game's balance at the back of your mind, not just your personal way to win? Please, quit with the name-calling, you're not in CAOD. Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers... Of course there are many extremely effective anti-nano tactics...but lets not use those when we can all just blob up... I guess Jump bridges weren''t enough for the pro blob forces...just remove the last anti-blob techniques in the game... Why don't you implode your alliance about it? Again. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 - [934] Pulled myself together now. I'm extremely frustrated, I've invested all my skilltraining so far in blasterboats, specifically thorax and taranis and now they're getting bum****ed so hard. This is extremely stupid.
Kay Han Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 - [935] Edited by: Kay Han on 25/07/2008 17:35:04 this nerf is just.... i cant **ing believe it... yes nano was overpowered cause every bugger and his mom was flying a nanoed ship... but THIS is just a slap in the face of every blasterboat pilot... ohh and lets see how this effects teh vaga, cause it¦s only defense IS speed. concratz CCP. you just proved that you guys still can¦t do something right /me claps Originally by:** CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
Zilkin M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 - [936] For roaming gangs nanoships are usually the superior option mainly for their ability to disengage. You can take much bigger risks with them than you can do with slow moving fleet which will get trapped and utterly obliterated much more easily. Has this shattered the balance that blog was talking about though ? Not in my opinion yes speed setups are now more popular for small scale skirmishes but all bigger battles are still decided by "normal" ships. Speed fits have supported solo/small gang pvp while not becoming even close the only setups used in pvp. On the other hand this change might unbalances the situation heavily in favor of non-speed tanked ships. Anyway I will reserve my final judgment to after actually seeing this in effect on the test server. This might be ok if speed fits still remain viable option but cut the speeds tad too much and Drakes for all it is.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 - [937] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth To quote CCP in a recent press statement 'a bunch of T1 frigs will always be able to kill that expensive T2 ship'. I don't see a problem with that, even when I am the one owning that T2 ship. This is a social game, not a personalised version of Unreal Tournament. I don't have a problem with that, if those frigates earn the kill. Prime example, 6 newbies, all with Drake capability. If those 6 fly Drakes, they shouldn't earn a kill over a better piloted Ishtar hovering at the edge of scram range - if 5 of those newbies get in T1 frigates with points and webs, and bum rush the guy to web him, that remaining Drake should gank him pretty fast. Skill earns kills, not ship match ups. Click me! You know you want to...
Zikka Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 - [938] Originally by: Wesley Baird Funny, most every pro-nerf post is from some tiny corp or carebear alliance...wonder why that is?! Perhaps because the only strategy you have come up with to battle nanogangs is numbers... Say what? How can you say 'tiny corp' and 'only strategy is numbers' in the same breath?
spiked amarr Dark Tornado	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:34:00 - [939] Edited by: spiked amarr on 25/07/2008 17:34:35 This is insanely Stupid if you get a ship to go "Ludicrous" speed its because the pilot has spent some SERIOUS cash doing so theres not many pilots that do it anyways. Also theres not really a whole lot expensive a Vaga can kill maybe like cruiser some battlecruisers all by its self it needs damage dealers to help it besides i think its fair if a vaga/ inty gets into webbing range of a rapier its screwed they jsut need to stay away from them is all My votes NO
Nikuno	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:35:00 - [940] Just for the sake of clarity, with the alteration of all MWD's to 500% bost, you're saying that the benefit of named/faction MWD's will now be they hit your capacitor less hard? Or maybe they don't bloom your signature radius so much? And if the nay-sayers are right about blasterboats being hit too hard without the ability to slow their targets so well with the reduced webs (which I like the sound of tbh) will the tracking on blasters be buffed accordingly so that type of ship remains viable?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:36:00 - [941] Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know? No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh. - DesuSigs
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:36:00 - [942] Originally by: lebrata In every game i have ever played older more experianced and better trained/equipped players have always been able to bet newer less skilled and equipped players, eve is the only game that already breaks that rule but this new nerf is making a form of pvp and ship type almost obsolete and not worth flying. I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not on the general case, but regardless of what other games do (and yes I do know about them) EVE can do better. Every level-based game I've been in it's 'get to level 50, then you can PvP' or 'lets have PvP-only chars that are already max level'. EVE has no levels and that's a great thing, but in so doing it has to ensure that new players can still contribute effectively. If, and I stress if, it were the case that nano-ships rule the battlefield and can't be touched by normal ships (and I've seen in-game evidence in both directions), then that is wrong, because they're expensive and have no inexpensive counter. I'm not convinced the changes makes anything obsolete. Speed is still perfectly possible from the numbers I've seen on the blog. If the only way to win in EVE is reduced to who has more ISK and has been in the game longer, then we might as well all quit PvP right now and go into trading. I say that without bias or direct relevance to the blog because I know plenty seem to think that 0.0 blob warfare is resolved that way. Player skill both individually and at the tactical, logistical and strategic level should determine who wins. That's the goal we should aim for. I don't think we've achieved it yet. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Entelechia Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:38:00 - [943] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know? No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh. This whole argument is stupid. This isn't World of EVEcraft. You sign up for consensual PvP the second you log in to EVE. If you don't like it, go play something else, or hug a station. The second you enter space, you've just said "Okay, I am ready to PvP" whether you realize it or not.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:40:00 - [944] Originally by: Entelechia Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Apertotes well, welcome to the world of non-consentual PVP. it goes both ways, you know? No, it doesn't. If you can leave combat at will, that means it is consensual. Duh. This whole argument is stupid. This isn't World of EVEcraft. You sign up for consensual PvP the second you log in to EVE. If you don't like it, go play something else, or hug a station. The second you enter space, you've just said "Okay, I am ready to PvP" whether you realize it or not. Well, people mean it in terms of individual incidents. A particular instance of combat can be unconsensual, while on a greater level you consent by undocking. - DesuSigs
Bo Bojangles Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:40:00 - [945] Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. Someone is clearly out of touch with the Eve pvp community.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:40:00 - [946] people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that: - it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable.
HotSeat Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:41:00 - [947] Let me explain this another way CCP SPEED = ANTI LAG It is the ONLY defense against lag, and not much of one at that. Otherwise NO one would jump into a hostile camp.... but again maybe thats what you want? PL and many others use speed to ALLOW us to fight, not a means of fighting. How else could we ever get past a camp with 2-3 x our numbers? We jump into, MWD out of range, and wait for the lag to catch up, then start fighting. I am your customer, I don't want these changes.... we want you to put your effort towards reducing lag, better game design so the Blob is reduced, finding something besides POS warfare, giving people a reason to hold space, and fixing Black Op's (ok that one is personal) Stop focusing on specific issues, look at the big picture and your real problems. Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !!
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:42:00 - [948] Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that: - it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable. People that didn't read the dev blog means you. The Quality of the MWD will no longer affect speed and of couse it has skills its most likely an all V pilot that he us using on Sisi you dolt. Peoeple are griping about it because it has a full ****ing HG snake set and T2 Rigs Like a 4 billion isk setup.
Hortoken Wolfbrother Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 - [949] Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that: - it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable. He said he has snakes and maxed skills, and if you read the dev blog, they are aiming to make all mwds the same speed - T1 MWds are just as fast as gistum a-types, the difference between modules will be sig radius and other things, not speed. Try again.
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 - [950] Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that: - it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable. after the patch tech1 mwd adds same speed as gist and that is with maxed dev skills Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 - [951] Originally by: Tiirae people raving about the 4km vagabond setup posted seem to be missing that: - it has a t1 mwd - it has no skills so if you add decent navigation skills and faction mwd you will be able to achieve that speed for like 250m or something, which is pretty reasonable. Where does it say no skills?
Jesse Jamess Caldari Red Tides	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 - [952] I do find it funny all the people saying omg nanno whiners... why do you think ccp is even considering nerfing this? because they just thought 1 day omg shipz are to fast... no n00bs whined and started crying... so now n00bs have an equal opprotunity to kill people who have been skilling and playing for multiple years... either way i think its kinda messed up... people spend billions and billions of isk + years of skilling to perfect their "ludacris" speeds.... its not like a 10 day old char will be able to really afford to do this... i propose the next nerf would be aimed to increase lag so that no one has the advantage.... if you alll have 15 minutes of module lag you will all be equal... oh wai..... ps im sure glad ive spent years training to fly fast nannos lets just keep taking care of new players instead of long time dedicated customers....
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:43:00 - [953] Originally by: Bo Bojangles Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PVP. Someone is clearly out of touch with the Eve pvp community. Why? You're afraid you might have to think about a new fit? CCP took a look at the AB vs MWD issue and decided, quite rightly, that every PvPer under the sun fits an MWD. This implies a broken game design. When a single module is required on almost every ship, in a game aimed at modular ship fits for flexibility, you got something wrong. Alternatively, we dispense with modules altogether and everyone just flies a ship type. Welcome to Unreal Tournament in space. Someone is clearly out of touch with the notion of game design. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:44:00 - [954] Originally by: HotSeat Let me explain this another way CCP SPEED = ANTI LAG It is the ONLY defense against lag, and not much of one at that. Otherwise NO one would jump into a hostile camp.... but again maybe thats what you want? PL and many others use speed to ALLOW us to fight, not a means of fighting. How else could we ever get past a camp with 2-3 x our numbers? We jump into, MWD out of range, and wait for the lag to catch up, then start fighting. I am your customer, I don't want these changes.... we want you to put your effort towards reducing lag, better game design so the Blob is reduced, finding something besides POS warfare, giving people a reason to hold space, and fixing Black Op's (ok that one is personal) Stop focusing on specific issues, look at the big picture and your real problems. this. nanos are a great way to fight against blobbing and CCP does want to reduce blobbing.. if this change goes in... it does the exact other thing. ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
HakanSherif Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:45:00 - [955] Every MMO i played so far with the eexception of WoW, did a smilar rewamp at some point listening to clueless idiots, then they died horribly. The scale of changes presented on the blog is very smilar to CU for SWG which successfully managed to bring down sub's numbers from 700k to 50k. Guess what? All those ppl who wanted CU quit the game. Yea go ahead implement these, and remove the only actual skill required flight style from game, remove the danger from 0.0 where both sides with blobs can sit and shoot each other and the outcome is determined by who has more numbers or who lags less. Couple of times i decided to leave the game becoz of stupid bugs and stupid customer service but then i changed my mind, coz there is nothing good out there to play however if these changes happen there wont be a reason left for me to play it other than spending time with friends. Well my accounts are paid for 6 or so months so i will wait and see but no more GTC's. I will just spend all the isk i have on exotic dancers.:)
Flem'berk	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:46:00 - [956] OMG do the maths before complaining.... Vaga today no implants but full t2 fit hits about 5989m/s (straight line) factor in stacking changes to polycarb's and result is still a respectable 5090.6m/s factoring in the changes to mwd's and altering setup for improved turning speed it should hit 4469.5 m/s or more. Factoring in snake sets gives very painful numbers but cant have everything... But now then a CNR that does apox the same speed 6k m/s now with a snake set will end up little over 2.88k m/s that a fair balance if ever I saw one. *** this is rough maths don't make me get out my abacus
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:46:00 - [957] Originally by: Whiners You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights??? Originally by: CCP Yap ----------------- Friends Forever
Gramtar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 - [958] I see only two significant problems with nano ships at the moment - the Sacriledge and to a much lesser extent the Ishtar. They are problematic because they do not depend on tracking to do damage - Missiles and Drones. Want to know the difference between a 10km/sec Vagabond and a 5km/sec Vagabond? Straight line speed. That's it. In fact, a Vagabond fitted with a single T1 polycarbon and T1 ambit (falloff bonus rig) is arguably better at solo pvp than one fitted with 2 T2 polycarbons. Neither can hit anything if they orbit faster than 3.5 km/sec. The 10km/sec Vagabond can more easily burn out of a bubble after jumping into a gate camp. Neither could or can permanently run their MWD under most setups. The multiple aspects of these changes - huge speed reductions, huge reduction in web effectiveness - have two impacts: Again missiles (Caldari) are buffed. Drones (Gallente for the most part) are buffed. Minmatar is nerfed twice over. If you want a new counter to nano-ships, the answer is not to come down with a heavy hand on what was always considered the best of them - the Vagabond - and do the same with ships that already are the counter - Rapiers and Huginns. Remember the Target Painter, the module that has no practical use in PvP whatsoever (doesn't even increase the signature radius of POS modules)? Why not simply give that module a % reduction to MWD effectiveness? Personally, the only ships that need fixed at the moment are the Sac and Ishtar. Ironically, the proposed changes make them ultimately better, while simply making Minmatar the most worthless race in EVE. Let's review Minmatar briefly: 1. Worst capital ships in both classes (Dread and Carrier) by far, due to damage and tanking ability 2. The Tempest - once considered among the best Battleships - takes the T2 ammo nerf (reducing range and damage), the HP buff (reduces the importance of Alpha strike), Tracking and Range nerfs (can't hit anything moving with T2 ammo while fitting a damage buffer of any sort) - is now almost as bad in Fleet as a Raven, and worse than a Raven for POS shooting. The same changes negatively impact the Muninn. 3. Smaller ship classes pretty much rely on speed and agility to pick their fights - The Rapier and Huginn considered among the best recons for small gang work because of web effectiveness. The Vagabond has been considered the best HAC at penetrating deep into hostile territory while still being able to bring a significant amount of damage. Yet, the Cerberus, Sacriledge, and Ishtar can all fit a slower, nano setup and make full speed orbits without any damage reduction. What are the benefits of flying the Vagabond and Rapier/Huginn after these changes? The former won't be able to burn out of a hostile bubble camp, and the latter won't be able to keep anything smaller than a plated Battleship from burning back to a gate.
Cat Gilligan Caldari Blair Corporation	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 - [959] Originally by: ZW Dewitt Edited by: ZW Dewitt on 25/07/2008 17:47:35 You can still do hit and run warfare, you just have to use smaller ships now. THE HORROR! Only a BLOB of small ships can kill anything except other small ships. Do we really want more blobs?
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 - [960] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Originally by: Whiners You Mean Im Going To Die To Blobs 10 times out of 10??? Originally by: CCP Yap Fixed it for you. Black Hand.

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