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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Havok Pierce
Gallente The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:08:00 -
[661]
Originally by: Xailia
Originally by: D'ceet Edited by: D''ceet on 14/01/2009 00:05:01 Toshiba Laptop... and i really like eve and want to keep playing, but just cant afford a better pc...i really really REALLY hope this doesnt shaft me....
GMA950 supports SM2. Heck GMA900 supports SM2.
Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled.
Remind me to bugreport the Premium client crashing any time the client loses focus (quitting, alt-tab, etc) on the intel X3100 under Vista. My fiance uses Classic because it doesn't crash, premium does. I suspect Premium Lite will crash.
To weigh in, dropping SM2 support kills me being able to play EVE on my road machine (Mobility 9600 here). Last time I was unable to play EVE on my laptop meant I wasn't playing at all.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
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Dsnakes
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:20:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Xessej .... Either support shadermodel 2.0 or give us a skill queue.
He have a point here, most ppl i know use low end pc, work pc, public pc, etc, to change skill, update some order, buy stuff, and never goes to space.
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5n4keyes
Sacred Templars Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:27:00 -
[663]
Originally by: CCP Explorer In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition.
This would indicate that you knew this change was needed many many months ago, especially since T3 was announced at fanfest in November. This in mind, why do you decide to announce it just under 2 months before the next patch where this change happens? wouldnt a more logical and more acceptable thing to do of been to announce it say, Fanfest? atleast giving people time to afford upgrade/new systems. Insted many of us are now sitting thinking, oh f*** only 2 paydays left til the next patch is out, and there isnt any way i can afford a new system/hardware yet!
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Bibi
Basic Tritanium Mining North
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:28:00 -
[664]
People talk about oh just run shadermodel etc and see if your gf support 2.0 or 3.0 eve will work sure if you got any of those no problem, but what about multiple accounts running at the sametime ?
I dont know anyone in eve that only use /have one account not one player, I Imagine that alot of people thats been using more then one account at the same time will have problems after this change even if their GF support 2.0 and 3. and obviously it will be more expensive upgrading for those players to be able to run multiple accounts as they done so far with classic eve client. As a multi account user I dont really see myself playing eve if I can't play as I now can do with the classic version, at leats 3 accounts on one computer with a good fps as well atm.
I dont know in price how much I would have to spend to get 3 accounts running perfect on one computer with premium lite version only thing I know is that it will be more money then if I only had one account running and ofc I want them to run as good as they did before the change.
But I'm not willing to spend large amount of money just to be able play multiple accounts in a new and less reliable client that makes the game slower then the old version even with a new computer thats it...
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Professor Dumbledore
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:36:00 -
[665]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: clone 1
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic?
Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3).
Then what benefit does dropping this Auto-generated SM2 version give CCP (...) Why develop Premium lite if its canned 9 months down the line.
We know that we need to offer an SM2 version for the Apocrypha expansion but are soliciting your feedback on the possible SM3 plans for the next expansion after Apocrypha.
This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard.
no one cares how your stupid game looks it just has to work, shut up.
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mechtech
Entropy Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:37:00 -
[666]
I think it's a necessary move.
Once walking in stations comes out, there's only going to be 1 set of art assets for it, which means that everyone needs to be on premium.
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Ada Erom
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:37:00 -
[667]
Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:39:00 -
[668]
Originally by: Bibi People talk about oh just run shadermodel etc and see if your gf support 2.0 or 3.0 eve will work sure if you got any of those no problem, but what about multiple accounts running at the sametime ?
I dont know anyone in eve that only use /have one account not one player, I Imagine that alot of people thats been using more then one account at the same time will have problems after this change even if their GF support 2.0 and 3. and obviously it will be more expensive upgrading for those players to be able to run multiple accounts as they done so far with classic eve client. As a multi account user I dont really see myself playing eve if I can't play as I now can do with the classic version, at leats 3 accounts on one computer with a good fps as well atm.
I dont know in price how much I would have to spend to get 3 accounts running perfect on one computer with premium lite version only thing I know is that it will be more money then if I only had one account running and ofc I want them to run as good as they did before the change.
But I'm not willing to spend large amount of money just to be able play multiple accounts in a new and less reliable client that makes the game slower then the old version even with a new computer thats it...
well I can answer that myself even. Shader model upgrade would have ZERO effect on how many clients you can run. Since you have only 1 at your screen at any time. Shaders are procedures ran to each and every pixel on the screen. That is independent of a lot of stuff that people usually associate with software load. It does not matter how many ships are in the battle using SM 2 or 3 won't change anything the GPU load is exactly the same.
So when people say to us to use classic client in fleet battles.. just LOL at their ignorance.
Does not matter if you have 27 clients running at once. SM 2 or 3 won't change anything on load because shaders are run only to pixels that are on the screen..
The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card)
If you get a 6600 card you can run premium. If you load more clients ,and loose performance video card has ZERO relation to it. You are just short of memory or raw cpu power.
Well in fact I just lied a tiny bit. memmory usage and CPU usage are LESS demanded on SM3 shaders than SM2 shaders.
SM3 allows the implementation of branches and loops within the shader. To achieve reasonable programmability, SM2 must use data tables encoded in extra textures. That uses more memmory and CPU power. SM3 unloads this into runtime processing in the VGA.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Claude Leon
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:40:00 -
[669]
Originally by: Ada Erom Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not.
And some of us have systems that can run "pretty little dodads". How about you stop whining and get a better job?
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Bibi
Basic Tritanium Mining North
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:43:00 -
[670]
Edited by: Bibi on 15/01/2009 00:43:30 I think it's a necessary move.
Once walking in stations comes out, there's only going to be 1 set of art assets for it, which means that everyone needs to be on premium.
HolyCrack walking in station that will improve the pvp in the game!!! And all other features as well!!!
Even premium lite version will be faster 1000000k fps or more
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Stradiot
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:48:00 -
[671]
Edited by: Stradiot on 15/01/2009 00:49:04
Originally by: Claude Leon
Originally by: Ada Erom Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not.
And some of us have systems that can run "pretty little dodads". How about you stop whining and get a better job?
this is a business decision on ccp's part, they're not going to eliminate scalability just so you can have your doodads if it means it's going to cost them subscribers
edit: walking in stations is a joke anyways and i'm willing to bet it won't do anything to expand their base of subscribers |
Toad Black
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:50:00 -
[672]
Edited by: Toad Black on 15/01/2009 00:53:36 Check the news. On the same day as this announcement, they announced public beta of premium content on OS/X. Which hopefully means premium content on Linux will follow shortly, since afaik OS/X uses opengl ...
I'm gonna buy a 3 month sub in mid feb, if they discontinue Linux support in early March they're gonna owe me a refund ...
FYI branching in shaders is implemented by following both paths... it's still faster? |
Rufus MacMaranth
Gallente Shadow Front
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:53:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Claude Leon
Originally by: Ada Erom Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not.
And some of us have systems that can run "pretty little dodads". How about you stop whining and get a better job?
How about you f* off and go play an MMO designed for pretty graphics, coz this sure as hell ain't the one. Pretty graphics does not a good game make and if this is all for WIS, then make WIS only SM3.0 as has been said.
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Bibi
Basic Tritanium Mining North
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:56:00 -
[674]
The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card)
If you get a 6600 card you can run premium. If you load more clients ,and loose performance video card has ZERO relation to it. You are just short of memory or raw cpu power.
so I can run my 3 accounts with a 6600 card with premium and it will work nice and if it does not work ok its some other part of my computer I see I see I mean to be rude now but its just not accurate all of this... its just not I'm sorry I'm not totally f-u-c-k-e-d in my head |
Ted Grayham
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:05:00 -
[675]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients (...) The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks
No, the Classic and Premium clients are two different frontends to two different sets of art assets. While we continue to support the Classic client then every new art asset has to be done in duplicate. That is what we did in the Quantum Rise expansion, all the new star gates and the Orca were all done in duplicate, completely separate Classic and Premium versions.
In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition.
****e. Ok, It was nice and all, but I don't know why you bothered :-O Good to get it off your chests then, I presume. You should seriously consider a limited market/research/skilling client with the same code, and without the assets for those low-low end computers though. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would consider this a very good thing. Even I would use that.
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TheDevilsJury
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:16:00 -
[676]
CCP, shader model 2.0 compatible cards are pretty common and include nearly all integrated solutions on the marketplace. I am extremely concerned about forcing shader model 3.0 compatibility however. Many laptops and desktops in current use use integrated chips like Intel GMA 900 or 950, which are only shader model 2.0 compatible, and many users still game on computers with cards like the Radeon 9700 or Radeon x800. I have serious doubts over whether such users will update their systems in the current year when what they have is probably sufficient for the older games and applications they use. Indeed, for laptops an upgrade path from integrated graphics isn't available. Keeping a premium lite client with support for shader model 2.0 makes sense in a much longer term than the plan set out in the dev blog. |
Darth Obvious
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:23:00 -
[677]
Originally by: Xessej .... Either support shadermodel 2.0 or give us a skill queue.
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:30:00 -
[678]
Originally by: Gner Dechast
Originally by: Avon
I couldn't care less if Classic won't have ambulation, I don't need it.
Could this be the real reason, not wanting to do ambulation models etc. twice?
I for one would also gladly accept no WiS and to keep classic.
/signed |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:38:00 -
[679]
Edited by: Avon on 15/01/2009 01:45:00
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients (...) The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks
No, the Classic and Premium clients are two different frontends to two different sets of art assets. While we continue to support the Classic client then every new art asset has to be done in duplicate. That is what we did in the Quantum Rise expansion, all the new star gates and the Orca were all done in duplicate, completely separate Classic and Premium versions.
You totally misunderstood what I was saying. I was talking server side data, in response to the claim that ditching classic would somehow make the server run better.
But then, this thread is all about misinformation, right?
We aren't asking for classic to be max possible glitz, just functional. I couldn't care less if T3 ships look great or were just reskinned versions of existing stuff, It doesn't make any difference to the game, which fortunately is a whole lot more than just a bunch of nice graphics.
Or maybe it isn't anymore? Not to you? |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:42:00 -
[680]
Basically this is a: "We can't be bothered to continue supporting the people who have supported us since beta" thing.
How about you replace my laptop for me? I haven't changed the minimum specs for Eve, and I haven't asked for them to change.
This is all about CCP, and nothing about the players.
Shameful.
"We won't do T3 ships for Classic because we just don't care enough about you".
Thanks. |
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T Op
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:42:00 -
[681]
i've been reading some of this stuff, and find that many concerns mention 'skills' and 'older machine' in the same line...
ccp already has a limited character data sheet, it's available to all players on its web-site, and lists all skills and their training status...
i seems to me that it wouldn't be extremely difficult to make that an 'interactive' data sheet, or just copy the in-game character skills sheet, to the web-site. it should not require too much additional work... a second link (web-page > to server) to allow skill switching...
this would allow people to access the 'skill tree' from just about any machine capable of accessing the internet with a browser...
i'll hit the 'multiple clients' that can't afford a $30 - $45 USD video card later, lmao |
Mikalya
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:45:00 -
[682]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We know that we need to offer an SM2 version for the Apocrypha expansion but are soliciting your feedback on the possible SM3 plans for the next expansion after Apocrypha.
This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard.
My feedback is simple: Require shader 3 and I have to close my account. It is not economically viable for me to invest in a new laptop in order to play a game when our dearest Governor has said we will have to cut up to 20% of our budgets this year. It also is not possible for me to use my almost new desktop for gaming due to constraints on my time and location in the house due to family and other concerns.
If my current machine (GMA 945, like millions of other machines out there) cannot play Eve, my account cannot stay open and I will be playing Aces High instead for my relaxation. |
Russell Stover
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:51:00 -
[683]
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.)
We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here)
I've read some of the comments here. You should consider your laptop users (school/university and company/home laptops) as being important when you decide on your graphics.
You should pickup a laptop that was selling for $499 12 months ago and see how it does. If its 'liveable' when jumping into Jita and 'decent' when mining and doing missions then you have a standard you shouldnt go below.
I'm a home user but when I'm on the road I use it on my modestly good 2 year old laptop and I wouldn't be paying for this game if I couldnt play it when I wanted to. You shouldnt consider what came out 3 months ago as your 'well its what people have' Those would be the xmas presents. Think back to the people who can't afford to upgrade every year.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:54:00 -
[684]
"Guys, guys, it's nearly March!!"
'Uh-huh'
"We ready to go with the new expansion?"
'Nope, playing fussball man'
" !!! "
'Chill bro, we got a plan. We only code half of it, and then tell the subscribers that the we are ditching Classic because of technical limitation. It's cool.'
"They'll never fall for tha.. hmmm, let's try."
'If it works we can ditch even more stuff later and all go make female vampire skins in the autumn.'
"EPIC!"
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.15 01:59:00 -
[685]
HEY CCP!
Your statistics are terrible in regards to the people that are still on Shader Model 2.0 only cards. See the Steam Survey here:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
Per December 2008, 18.91% of all users polled via the Steam application had Shader Model 2.0-only cards. Not three percent. Almost nineteen percent.
Check your numbers before you go alienating nearly 20% of the gaming base. |
Russell Stover
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:04:00 -
[686]
You know its a bad idea when a Goonswarm and BoB agree that its a bad idea.
^
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:08:00 -
[687]
Oh, and CCP please change the name from "Premium Lite" to just plain "Lite". We'll know what you mean :)
And give us the option to turn texture detail all the way down to the point where we can have shaded (not textured) polygons but still have normal maps. At least the ship still stays shiny and has pretty shadows, but I can run two clients on the one laptop due to lower requirements for texture memory :)
My next computer upgrade will be mid 2010. If I can't play your game on the computers I'm currently running, I can't play your game.
I miss Elite =( |
Tais
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:13:00 -
[688]
Abit confusing.
As for me, i can use premium. But problem is that 2 clients works, but if i try to run one more, after few minutes all clients crashes. On classic i can run 4 clients, movie and u-torrent.
Also PvP - premium only. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:16:00 -
[689]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:17:36 Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:16:22
Originally by: Kagura Nikon The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card)
I have problems running two clients in Premium, but can run just fine in Classic, only because Premium uses far more texture memory than Classic.
The bottleneck in my case is that the graphics card only has 128MB for texture memory. Multiple instances of the EVE client do not share textures, so I'll end up with the same textures loaded twice, effectively cutting the graphics card down to 64MB of texture memory for each client.
In my case, I'd be able to run multiple independent clients on my laptop without any trouble if it was possible to turn textures off.
One optimisation that CCP could make is for the one client to allow multiple simultaneous sessions, thereby keeping all the graphics assets in memory for only 1 client. Each flight window would be part of one application - this would allow other efficiencies such as only sending object details down the pipe once instead of once for each client as it jumps into system or loads the grid at the end of warping in.
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Trellish
Ten Ton Hammer Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.15 02:23:00 -
[690]
I'm quite concerned about phasing out classic content in favor of "premium lite". The reason being that while my computer is plenty sufficient to run premium content, the game crashes instantly every time I try, forever limiting me to classic.
I've filled out a bug report, then re-submitted it giving all the log reports that they ask for.... the problem of course being that when you file out a bug report... they never give you updates... I got no way of knowing when or if they fix the game so that my xp machine with a radeon 3850 can use premium. |
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