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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Ein Spiegel
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:19:00 -
[631]
Perhaps CCP is asking people the wrong question about this.
They want to know, more precisely, how many people will whine about the graphics requirements going beyond what people are able or willing to afford. And the information on graphics cards, SM version, etc, is good. Although just being able to support SM version whatever isn't going to tell you if you can get a decent experience. (It's a bit more convoluted than that, especially as any integrated chipset has its own twists due to mobo manufacturer.)
No, I think the more interesting question, and one better than a hardware survey (again, just because your hardware can run it doesn't mean that the Linux/WINE/Mac/WarpOS can give you something that works) is why people play MMORPGs to begin with; what makes them more enjoyable than a stand-alone game. Why should I play EvE instead of (for example) Homeworld, Freelancer, or Terminus? It's the other people.
If I just wanted bright shiny graphics I could play *shudder* StarWars Galaxies. Or World of Warcrack. It's the people that make me enjoy Eve. The high learning curve keeps even the ass-hats to a reasonable level of intellect and I've seen discussions in local chat channels that you simply COULD NOT find in any Barrens chat. So why is CCP focusing on pretty colors on a game design that could be practical using scrolling ANSI art (c'mon, people, it's a point and click game; the pretty colors are a distraction from coordinating with other people) or some kind of mapboard out of a bad military sci-fi movie? Work on the systems first that underlie the graphics, and work on the broken personal interaction systems. (Eve Voice still sucks compared to TeamSpeak or Ventrilo... why? And why can't we have audio that people will use?)
Of course, really pretty box graphics could sell a few games for Atari...
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LordRyan77
Gallente Ooops Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:25:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Ein Spiegel Perhaps CCP is asking people the wrong question about this.
They want to know, more precisely, how many people will whine about the graphics requirements going beyond what people are able or willing to afford. And the information on graphics cards, SM version, etc, is good. Although just being able to support SM version whatever isn't going to tell you if you can get a decent experience. (It's a bit more convoluted than that, especially as any integrated chipset has its own twists due to mobo manufacturer.)
No, I think the more interesting question, and one better than a hardware survey (again, just because your hardware can run it doesn't mean that the Linux/WINE/Mac/WarpOS can give you something that works) is why people play MMORPGs to begin with; what makes them more enjoyable than a stand-alone game. Why should I play EvE instead of (for example) Homeworld, Freelancer, or Terminus? It's the other people.
If I just wanted bright shiny graphics I could play *shudder* StarWars Galaxies. Or World of Warcrack. It's the people that make me enjoy Eve. The high learning curve keeps even the ass-hats to a reasonable level of intellect and I've seen discussions in local chat channels that you simply COULD NOT find in any Barrens chat. So why is CCP focusing on pretty colors on a game design that could be practical using scrolling ANSI art (c'mon, people, it's a point and click game; the pretty colors are a distraction from coordinating with other people) or some kind of mapboard out of a bad military sci-fi movie? Work on the systems first that underlie the graphics, and work on the broken personal interaction systems. (Eve Voice still sucks compared to TeamSpeak or Ventrilo... why? And why can't we have audio that people will use?)
Of course, really pretty box graphics could sell a few games for Atari... brings up an issue just bought a logitech headset last week, mic worked for a couple days than stopped. was wondering if the mic was broke or just eve voice quark.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:28:00 -
[633]
I want to continue playing with classic client.
1. I don't like premium graphic client. It is ugly. Almost all gallante and some amarr ships are better in classic version.
2. My comp can only support SM 1.4 and it is enough for my tasks. Sure, i can buy a videocard with SM 2.0 support, but what is the point, if you cut it anyway in the end of this year? Sounds like a waste of money to me. And for SM 3.0 support i have to buy a whole new computer wich is not gonna happen in near future because of financial crisys.
So.. i guess i'll not be playing after march 10.. unless you can provide guaranty that you will support SM 2.0 for at least a couple of years, and if you repaint some ships to be more like in classic version.
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Sinigogo
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:31:00 -
[634]
Originally by: LordRyan77
Originally by: mattimus9 i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve.
I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!!
Thats all fine and dandy as long as I don't have to replace my +$3,000(+ú2,300) 24 MONTH old PC.
If you managed to spend that amount of money on a PC 24 months ago that wont run SM2 graphics you're not really qualified to comment. That said, an SM2 capable card costs about as much as 10 packs of cigarettes these days. And also, 2 years is a small eternity on the hardware end of things. EVE is one of the very few games that actually runs on ancient cards to begin with, and this change will not affect that significantly.
Go CCP! More dev time on making things better, less on supporting cheap bastards, hurray! |
Midshipman
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:33:00 -
[635]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.)
Hey CCP, upgrading a PC to the new SM 2/3 standards is not a big deal, but laptops are an entirely different picture. None of the laptops that I own or am able to borrow have video cards that will work under your proposed changes. Introducing an out of client interface for changing skills would partially alleviate this problem, but it won't replace the numerous other activities that I currently use my laptop for while I'm at school (corp role changes, production, market interaction, light hauling). Please consider how you will be limiting your game by shutting out less expensive notebooks. |
Sinigogo
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:37:00 -
[636]
Awesome, people going "well I cant afford a new computer to run my 6 accounts on!". Please, if you can afford spending a small fortune per month on multiple accounts of the same game you can afford a $60 graphics card for your PC or sell your laptop and buy a slightly better one. It's a sound CCP decision. In fact I'd go further and make it SM3 only. That way they can focus all their energy on the UI bugs that are causing me issues (ever had the issue where you drag a mod to your ship and it appears on your ship but doesn't disappear from your hangar, fun fun).
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Mikalya
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:41:00 -
[637]
Originally by: Sinigogo That way they can focus all their energy on the UI bugs that are causing me issues (ever had the issue where you drag a mod to your ship and it appears on your ship but doesn't disappear from your hangar, fun fun).
lol.
If they were fixing bugs instead of writing new clients you wouldn't have that problem
No amount of shaders is going to fix the UI
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ishkurz
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:43:00 -
[638]
ever had lag in Jita becase of premium client ?
or do you like the premium client in fleet battles ?
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Haral Reimo
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:45:00 -
[639]
I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't know what level of Shader Model their cards support, and wouldn't know how to find out.
Also, as a lot of people never read the forums and dev blogs, many people won't hear about this in advance. I think CCP need to add a SM check to the main game client, and pop up a big warning if it won't work in March. Then make it easily visible from the Esc menu what level the card supports so people have an easy place to check.
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Aerine Diamond
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:56:00 -
[640]
Edited by: Aerine Diamond on 14/01/2009 22:58:52 I really appreciate the way CCP is trying to do this. It's nice that they ask players before they do this. So here's my opinion:
I have a Toshiba A200 with Intel X3100 graphics. Yes, Intel. And even the Classic client was a little slow on it, BUT after I changed the original 1 GB memory to 2,5 GB, the classic was no longer faster than the premium. (Because most integrated graphics cards use a part of the system memory instead of having their own.) And X3100 supports SM3.0, yes. (A shame I couldn't get it to do anti-aliasing.)
So now I run Premium graphics pretty well on the X3100. On the family's desktop computer I was even able to add Anti-Aliasing with a tool called nHancer, so I have no personal problems with any of the changes. But discontinuing shader model 2.0 support is unwise, I think.
All in all, saying goodbye to SM1 is wise, but dropping SM2 is not. With discontinuing support for SM1, CCP will get rid of most of the people who complain about everything. With setting the minimum to SM3, however, they will lose very much of the players who really would like to play the game, but will be unable to do so. So I would recommend against it.
I think you should make the graphics more scalable. In almost every other games the settings allow us to set the graphics to what runs fast enough. In EVE there is only one main setting: to choose between classic and premium. So maybe CCP should consider a little more freedom for graphics settings. And for the hardcore gamers, you should add Anti-Aliasing feature. That should do.
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facialimpediment
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:57:00 -
[641]
Edited by: facialimpediment on 14/01/2009 22:57:24 Dumping Shader Model 2.0 is a terrible, terrible idea.
Not only does it not make business sense (you would lose subscriptions, such as my own), but also the global economy really sucks right now, so with what money would people with older computers (such as myself) go out and get a computer upgrade? Personally, I'd rather eat.
Worst. Idea. Ever.
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Rufus MacMaranth
Gallente Shadow Front
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Posted - 2009.01.14 22:58:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Sinigogo Awesome, people going "well I cant afford a new computer to run my 6 accounts on!". Please, if you can afford spending a small fortune per month on multiple accounts of the same game you can afford a $60 graphics card for your PC or sell your laptop and buy a slightly better one. It's a sound CCP decision. In fact I'd go further and make it SM3 only. That way they can focus all their energy on the UI bugs that are causing me issues (ever had the issue where you drag a mod to your ship and it appears on your ship but doesn't disappear from your hangar, fun fun).
God you are insufferable. The whole beauty of this game is in everything but the graphics. It is in it complexity, the interaction, the vastness of it all. If you pick a game for graphics, even MMOs, there are many better out there than EVE .. even if it goes to SM 3.0.
And some people can't afford a new PC to run their 1 account on. And if you have a laptop there is no card upgrade in many cases. And sell your old laptop? Yeah, that will get you a long way towards an new one. Dolt!
Cheers, Ruf.
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Rogue Trayder
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:03:00 -
[643]
Hey CCP, I guess you stopped listening to this forum a while back seeing as youre no longer posting encouraging replies..
However if you were still reading then are you seeing any trends?
Laptops?
Old equipment?
Not many people using the premium client currently? (Im sure your stats show otherwise )
Im sure though, as a sensible and forward looking company CCP is fully aware of how your client base plays your game, and generally with what kind of equipment.
One question... Does your average WOW player with their spectacular gaming rig have the kind of patience required to "wait" for Battleship 5 to roll around?
Just a question? Hmm? Juuuust thought id let that one slide around.....? Hmm? See how it goes.....? Hmm? Hmm? You have a pretty dedicated player base, not many instant gratification games can claim that. Unfortunately not many EVE players are young enough to have mommy and daddy buy them a new WOW gaming rig this year.
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Irish Blend
Caldari 10045th Logistics Battalion
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:05:00 -
[644]
Are we going to get a test button? Run this utility from the web or locally to verify what will run? A lot of people playing EVE are on work laptops I like cats, especially with General Tso's sauce http://www.skamarakas.com/jim
Got a question about EVE Online, ask. If I know the answer, I will tell |
Irish Blend
Caldari 10045th Logistics Battalion
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:10:00 -
[645]
Originally by: Rufus MacMaranth And if you have a laptop there is no card upgrade in many cases. And sell your old laptop? Yeah, that will get you a long way towards an new one. Dolt!
My employeer might not think its that simple to upgrade the laptop I carry with me on business trips. Upgrading corporate laptops by the thousands is not an easy thing for a lot of businesses these days,as others have said. ts a mattr of economics, not just for a single home PC - the easiest to upgrade - but for all of those people like myself who play on laptop computers I like cats, especially with General Tso's sauce http://www.skamarakas.com/jim
Got a question about EVE Online, ask. If I know the answer, I will tell |
Seishomaru
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:19:00 -
[646]
Could CCP at least be kind and say who is now sponsoring Eve development? Is it NVIDIA or AMD? I've worked on game businnes for quite some years, and would not be the first time for this to happen.
Nothing to be ashamed, its business, but You should rethink a bit the schedule at least.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:24:00 -
[647]
Originally by: Poreuomai What will the "Minimum Spec" on the boxed version say?
Are you really going to put "SM2" knowing that such systems cannot run the game six months later?
As CCP Zulupark said in his blog, at this time we are only considering making SM3 the minimum specification in the Winter Expansion in Q4 2009. We are soliciting your input on the matter.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:28:00 -
[648]
Edited by: Poreuomai on 14/01/2009 23:36:29
I understand, but it seems only fair that the SM2/SM3 choice should be made before the boxes are printed with the minimum spec. Just a thought.
As for the pixel shader version, I myself am almost certainly going to upgrade my machine to SM3 by the autum, but I know that quite a few people play on (older) laptop computers. |
Helison
Gallente GREY COUNCIL
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:33:00 -
[649]
CCP Explorer (or any other Dev), could you please answer the question about what will happen with the Linux client? Or did I just miss the answer? |
Polinus
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:38:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Helison CCP Explorer (or any other Dev), could you please answer the question about what will happen with the Linux client? Or did I just miss the answer?
I would guess that you should wait on the results of MAC beta. Programming for a mac is very very close to programming for linux. If they make the engine work ok on mac OpenGl it will work ok for linux easily. Its just logical that they focus fist on MAc.
But When that is working OK should be easy to achieve a linux premium client. |
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Solo Drakban
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:40:00 -
[651]
I'd be very interested to know where these numbers CCP are seemingly pulling out of the air came from. The Steam HW survey, which is generally a decent guide to computing power out there given the penetration of Steam shows that there are just under 8% who are capped at SM2.0 and while it has been very slowly trending down I don't think it's going to hit 3% by year end. Again, these are figures from the Steam HW which doesn't directly equate to EVE customers but is a good generalized view of gaming computers.
View it at: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ |
Avenger Garius
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:40:00 -
[652]
Edited by: Avenger Garius on 14/01/2009 23:40:40
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Poreuomai What will the "Minimum Spec" on the boxed version say?
Are you really going to put "SM2" knowing that such systems cannot run the game six months later?
As CCP Zulupark said in his blog, at this time we are only considering making SM3 the minimum specification in the Winter Expansion in Q4 2009. We are soliciting your input on the matter.
This, the sky isn't falling. And they're expecting a few losses so they don't have to manage an extra client worth of data including but not limited to code for graphics engines code between game engine and graphics engine, textures, models, menu items, etc. So for I believe EVE has hit a 250,000 subscribers mark 5% being in the 12,500 mark now assuming that all the posters on here were complaining about the move away from SM 1.0 it's still only 0.25% of the whole subscriber base approximate I'm working off you need the amount of people not posting concerned to be 19 times bigger before it rises above 5% of 250,000. So judging off the current forums posts 647, I'm not seeing the sky falling... yet... |
Zerb Cerus
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:44:00 -
[653]
agp SM 2.0 here too. (PC) I wont touch this system until i buy me a whole new rig at the end of the year. Fortunately I invested a few extra bucks to get my Dell Inspiron 600 equipped with an ati with SM3. \o/
[ whine ]
Originally by: PeHD0M
1. I don't like premium graphic client. It is ugly. Almost all gallante and some amarr ships are better in classic version.
Me too! I understand that design is a matter of taste but some ships that look low-res but shiny in classic are looking like made out of ordinary paper in premium. Also texture resolutions are very inconsistent (hi-res textures on one part of the ship, extra-low on another) despite the tool you showed at fanfest that was made to prevent that. Combined with the performance (the framerate in empty space, or when u r fighting "red crosses" is a bad joke) and the fact that i did spaceship-3D-programming myself i was disapointed enough to to take 3 months of eve-break until i downgraded to classic and started playing again. [ /whine ]
I decided to ignore the ui/gfx and enjoy the positive sides of eve.
So im fine if you decide to reduce the time you waste on a redundant engine and move your fucus to more important things.
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Enthral
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:46:00 -
[654]
I feel for people who own laptops which are several years old, but desktop users have NO EXCUSE. SM 3.0 compatible video cards for the older motherboards with AGP instead of PCI Express, are available and dirt cheap.
X1650 Pro AGP
That's USD $40 after rebate.
Here are the specs:
Radeon X1650 PRO AGP Specifications
EVE is going to have to move forward, with or without the small fraction of players who can't afford $40 for a new videocard. Business is just like PvP: keep moving, or die.
-Grid
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:49:00 -
[655]
Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients (...) The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks
No, the Classic and Premium clients are two different frontends to two different sets of art assets. While we continue to support the Classic client then every new art asset has to be done in duplicate. That is what we did in the Quantum Rise expansion, all the new star gates and the Orca were all done in duplicate, completely separate Classic and Premium versions.
In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition. |
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:52:00 -
[656]
My thoughts on this,
Step 1 is a good thing, eventually we have to move on, and keep supporting shader 1.x is just beyond reasonable. Having just 1 client and thus needing less time to develop new stuff is a good thing.
Step 2 is 1 step too much too soon, for 2 reasons : 1. Alot of good performing ATI cards only support SM 2.0, but are faster then their Nvidia SM 3.0 counterparts. The X850XT ( SM 2.0 ) for example, is comparable to a 6800Ultra ( SM 3.0 ) and quite a bit faster then a 6600GT ( SM 3.0 ). Forcing people to upgrade these will cost CCP, for sure. 2. ALOT of Laptops just don't support SM 3.0, so alot of students and other people that travel alot will be screwed, and if CCP hopes that alot of them will upgrade, then they are making a big mistake.
If you want to learn 1 thing that WoW does right, then it is that you should keep your minimum specs intact as much as possible. You can still run WoW fine on your original computer you had when the game released, meanwhile improvements have been made and there are many options you can tweak, so you can put your 8800GT to good use on your 24" LCD monitor with all effects and options maxed.
I regularly assemble gaming rigs for friends and family, and I know that some people have no issues to pay big bucks for bleeding edge tech, but I also have experienced alot of people that just don't want to upgrade, and they just stick with WoW, cause they can run the game.
Clearly step 2 has alot to do with WIS ( Walking In Stations ), but the only responsible way for CCP to deal with this is to allow people to play EVE online with SM 2.0, like they can now, HOWEVER, if they want to Walk in a station and experience the new content there, they will have to upgrade to an SM 3.0 gfx card.
People will slowly start to upgrade their systems and perhaps in 2 years time we can have this discussion again.
I would hate to see people leave over this, but I am sure many will, some out of necessity, some out of principle.
And no you can't have my stuff, cause I have a Core 2 Quad @ 3600mhz and will upgrade my 8800GTS 512MB SLI when the GTX295 comes out :p
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Aldiree Antima
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:55:00 -
[657]
Originally by: Haral Reimo I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't know what level of Shader Model their cards support, and wouldn't know how to find out.
Easy to fix on Windows you can check gfx-card with GPU-Z http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ Mac and Linux people post link the tools for Mac/Linux, please. |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2009.01.14 23:56:00 -
[658]
Originally by: clone 1
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic?
Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3).
Then what benefit does dropping this Auto-generated SM2 version give CCP (...) Why develop Premium lite if its canned 9 months down the line.
This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard.
We know that we need to offer an SM2 version for the Apocrypha expansion but are soliciting your feedback on the possible SM3 plans for the next expansion after Apocrypha. |
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:04:00 -
[659]
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 15/01/2009 00:10:10
Originally by: CCP Explorer This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard.
Nope, forget about it, your sub numbers will be hurt, I want to make a bet on that, seriously.
But I have a smarter solution for you, keep the "auto generated" SM 2.0 for the current content, but force people to buy an SM 3.0 gfx card if they want to experience Walking in Stations.
Look at it this way, since launch in march 2003, people have been able to use their good old computer to run the game, thats almost 6 years. And now you are not thinking of skipping 1 generation of shader models, but 2 in 1 year ... it is not that hard to see this is not a very good idea, is it?
Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
Haral Reimo
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Posted - 2009.01.15 00:06:00 -
[660]
Originally by: Aldiree Antima Edited by: Aldiree Antima on 14/01/2009 23:56:08
Originally by: Haral Reimo I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't know what level of Shader Model their cards support, and wouldn't know how to find out.
Easy to fix on Windows you can check your gfx-card with GPU-Z http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ Mac and Linux people post link the tools for Mac/Linux, please.
I know that, you know that. I'd guess 90% of the Eve playerbase does NOT know that. Remember, most Eve players don't post in or read the forums
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