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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 14:38:00 -
[3421] - Quote
"We want miners to use Hulks again because ganking those isn't a problem!" "CCP, why we have to tolerate these 30k EHP Hulks?! This game is for gankers after all."
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:40:00 -
[3422] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:"We want miners to use Hulks again because ganking those isn't a problem!" "CCP, why we have to tolerate these 30k EHP Hulks?! This game is for gankers after all." Yeah, because we never said anything like "switch the EHP of the Hulk and the Mackinaw." Nope, not at all. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1933
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:41:00 -
[3423] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why? The Mack already has plenty of CPU to fit a tank.
To fit all tank, you need a cpu upgrade or rig, so a slot is wasted on that. I just think an even tradeoff if you're going to drop the base hp down would be more cpu so those of us who want to fit the extra tank have the option. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:41:00 -
[3424] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why? The Mack already has plenty of CPU to fit a tank. To fit all tank, you need a cpu upgrade or rig. You mean those two free rig spots you have now that the cargo expanders are useless? http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1933
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:44:00 -
[3425] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why? The Mack already has plenty of CPU to fit a tank. To fit all tank, you need a cpu upgrade or rig. You mean those two free rig spots you have now that the cargo expanders are useless?
I use them for tanking. But if I don't put a cpu rig on there, I have to use a cpu upgrade on one of my low slows instead of my reinforced bulkhead II's |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:49:00 -
[3426] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, because we never said anything like "switch the EHP of the Hulk and the Mackinaw." Nope, not at all.
That's most pupular "solution" mentioned by gankers in this and other "I hate AFK isk printing" threads. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:49:00 -
[3427] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why? The Mack already has plenty of CPU to fit a tank. To fit all tank, you need a cpu upgrade or rig. You mean those two free rig spots you have now that the cargo expanders are useless? I use them for tanking. But if I don't put a cpu rig on there, I have to use a cpu upgrade on one of my low slows instead of my reinforced bulkhead II's Why are you putting reinforced bulkhead IIs on a shield tanked ship? http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1934
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:52:00 -
[3428] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why? The Mack already has plenty of CPU to fit a tank. To fit all tank, you need a cpu upgrade or rig. You mean those two free rig spots you have now that the cargo expanders are useless? I use them for tanking. But if I don't put a cpu rig on there, I have to use a cpu upgrade on one of my low slows instead of my reinforced bulkhead II's Why are you putting reinforced bulkhead IIs on a shield tanked ship?
Because with my dmg control 2, it adds a lot of extra ehp. Nothing else to put down there, I don't care about my yield when mining since I do it for fun so no point in Mining Upgrades. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:52:00 -
[3429] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yeah, because we never said anything like "switch the EHP of the Hulk and the Mackinaw." Nope, not at all. That's most pupular "solution" mentioned by gankers in this and other "I hate AFK isk printing" threads. It couldn't possibly be that we want the exhumers to have proper roles, which is what CCP attempted to do. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:53:00 -
[3430] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why are you putting reinforced bulkhead IIs on a shield tanked ship?
It seems like someone loves ganking 200k EHP Orcas. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:58:00 -
[3431] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why are you putting reinforced bulkhead IIs on a shield tanked ship? It seems like someone loves ganking 200k EHP Orcas. It seems like someone loves strawmen. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 15:07:00 -
[3432] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It seems like someone loves strawmen.
No, I don't use 4chan. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 15:10:00 -
[3433] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It seems like someone loves strawmen. No, I don't use 4chan. Please educate yourself. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 15:12:00 -
[3434] - Quote
Wikipedia... Greatest source ever...
It was last edited on 3 September 2012. You? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:14:00 -
[3435] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Wikipedia... Greatest source ever... It was last edited on 3 September 2012. You? Gee, it's almost as if you live in this little bubble where facts bounce right off and only rhetoric can come out. You need to be freed, my friend, before you languish in there forever. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 15:16:00 -
[3436] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Gee, it's almost as if you live in this little bubble where facts bounce right off and only rhetoric can come out. You need to be freed, my friend, before you languish in there forever.
Prove that Wikipedia pages can't be edited by 14 year old kids. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:18:00 -
[3437] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Gee, it's almost as if you live in this little bubble where facts bounce right off and only rhetoric can come out. You need to be freed, my friend, before you languish in there forever. Prove that Wikipedia pages can't be edited by 14 year old kids. Prove that that has anything to do with this topic. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:42:00 -
[3438] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Why it's so important to be able to profit from ganking? Again, what does that have to do with what I said?
Read OP. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:46:00 -
[3439] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Why it's so important to be able to profit from ganking? Again, what does that have to do with what I said? Read OP. You're not talking to him. You're talking to me. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:47:00 -
[3440] - Quote
Why don't I approach this from a different angle.
Why is it so important for you to be able to AFK ice mine? http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:50:00 -
[3441] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why is it so important for you to be able to AFK ice mine?
Because nullseccers can do it too? |
Buck Futz
Suddenly Violence Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
76
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Posted - 2012.09.07 16:05:00 -
[3442] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:Ok so if you bring down the Mackinaws base hitpoints to that of the Hulks of close to it, what about giving the Mackinaw say 40 more CPU to make up for it. Would that be an even trade off?
As a ganker, I think the 'base EHP' of a Mackinaw should be below 10K. A fail-tanked Mackinaw (Max yield, Civilian Shield boosters) should be instapopped by a Tornado, or soloed by a max-Skill T2 Catalyst. A max-tanked Mackinaw should top out around 30K.
Don't have a big problem with the Hulk getting a minor EHP buff, to make it 2nd overall in EHP. After all, mining in a fleet doesn't confer all that much protection from suicide ganking. In one sense, non-bot Hulk-miners are earning their pay through ore hold micromanagement. But it should still be low enough to be vulnerable - otherwise the Skiff becomes pointless.
And the Skiff should simply be 'not rationally gankable' - but the ISK/hr should be significantly less. (not 'equal' to the Mackinaw, except for the lack of MLU low-slots.)
I'd also dial back the Macks Ore hold size.....but allow Cargo Expanders to increase its size beyond what is currently possible. Give miners a reason to cargo-fit again. Right now its just a 'Tank vs Yield'. The choice should be 'Tank vs Yield vs Cargo'.
That was originally the point of the thread - that CCP is simply patronizing miners by taking away fitting choices and trade offs with one-size-fits all.
Mackinaw: Easiest mining, but riskiest vs ganking Hulk: Fastest mining, slightly safer - but pain in the ass due to micro and needing an Orca. Skiff: Safest mining, but not as convenient as the Mack, nor as fast as the Hulk.
Barges need a similar adjustment.
Done right, I think you'd see a much healthier mixture of the 3 Exhumers in highsec.
Oh, also - as a ganker, I wish CCP would make the ORE Strip Miners have a Yield increase instead of a silly range increase. Give miners a reason to use them.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 16:15:00 -
[3443] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:Ok so if you bring down the Mackinaws base hitpoints to that of the Hulks of close to it, what about giving the Mackinaw say 40 more CPU to make up for it. Would that be an even trade off? As a ganker, I think the 'base EHP' of a Mackinaw should be below 10K. A fail-tanked Mackinaw (Max yield, Civilian Shield boosters) should be instapopped by a Tornado, or soloed by a max-Skill T2 Catalyst. A max-tanked Mackinaw should top out around 30K. Don't have a big problem with the Hulk getting a minor EHP buff, to make it 2nd overall in EHP. After all, mining in a fleet doesn't confer all that much protection from suicide ganking. In one sense, non-bot Hulk-miners are earning their pay through ore hold micromanagement. But it should still be low enough to be vulnerable - otherwise the Skiff becomes pointless. And the Skiff should simply be 'not rationally gankable' - but the ISK/hr should be significantly less. (not 'equal' to the Mackinaw, except for the lack of MLU low-slots.) I'd also dial back the Macks Ore hold size.....but allow Cargo Expanders to increase its size beyond what is currently possible. Give miners a reason to cargo-fit again. Right now its just a 'Tank vs Yield'. The choice should be 'Tank vs Yield vs Cargo'. That was originally the point of the thread - that CCP is simply patronizing miners by taking away fitting choices and trade offs with one-size-fits all. Mackinaw: Easiest mining, but riskiest vs ganking Hulk: Fastest mining, slightly safer - but pain in the ass due to micro and needing an Orca. Skiff: Safest mining, but not as convenient as the Mack, nor as fast as the Hulk. Barges need a similar adjustment. Done right, I think you'd see a much healthier mixture of the 3 Exhumers in highsec. Oh, also - as a ganker, I wish CCP would make the ORE Strip Miners have a Yield increase instead of a silly range increase. Give miners a reason to use them. This guy gets it. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 16:21:00 -
[3444] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:This guy gets it.
Sure, if we all can wardec Goons and Razer for free. |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1943
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Posted - 2012.09.07 16:22:00 -
[3445] - Quote
Easy to suggest all these changes when you're not the one who uses that ship. It's not so easy to get onboard with those changes when you're strictly a miner. Our amount of choices already sucks, having to worry about the best one we got getting nerfed sucks too. Though I do agree it does need some changes, but to the base hp only...I don't see a point in changing anything else about it minus adding more cpu. |
Buck Futz
Suddenly Violence Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
76
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Posted - 2012.09.07 16:46:00 -
[3446] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:Easy to suggest all these changes when you're not the one who uses that ship. It's not so easy to get onboard with those changes when you're strictly a miner. Our amount of choices already sucks, having to worry about the best one we got getting nerfed sucks too. Though I do agree it does need some changes, but to the base hp only...I don't see a point in changing anything else about it minus adding more cpu.
Oh, I just want miners to scratch their heads a little bit about which Exhumer to use.... ....and then scratch their head again when they figure out how to fit it.
Some will do fine, others will fail. Gankers want to be able to kill the failures without spending a fortune to do it.
I also want miners to have some options.
How would you like a Mack that could be Cargo expanded/rigged up to say, 40 or even 50K? (even if the base size is lower)I'm sure a lot of miners would like that. And with the EHP penalty, gankers would too.
Too bad that CCP doesn't allow those kinds of choices anymore. Today its "How many MLU II do you want?"
For combat ships, it would be as if CCP just decided to remove all speed mods, and then gave some types of ships built-in MWDs. Thats what they did here, for Exhumers. Tiericide shouldn't mean 'dumbing down'.
Also, I the 'special rigs' for Ice or Merx concept was a slapped on, rushed fail-job. Goes a long way to illustrate how little thought or effort they put into the Aug. 8 Patch. It was simply a reactive lurch to get it done ASAP, rather than doing it properly in the winter expansion.
At minimum there should have been a 3rd rig for 'standard Ore'. Why should miners be punished for mining Ice or Merx? Why not just get rid of them entirely? |
Buck Futz
Suddenly Violence Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
76
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Posted - 2012.09.07 17:10:00 -
[3447] - Quote
Incidentally, this same 'lack of fitting choices' is one of the reasons I was irritated about the Boomerang nerf.
Gankers, for the first time in a long time, actually had an actual fitting choice, beyond, "Duhhhhhhh, Maximum gankage!" As it is, Concord makes 95% of all the mods you could put on a suicide gankship completely pointless.
There were significant benefits to be had if you fit the Tornado for agility. The only problem? More agility meant lowering your damage potential.
Some interesting fits emerged in the (very) brief time between when the tactic 'went public' and when it was patched out/became exploit.
So now, we are back to "Duhhhhhh...maximum gankage!"
No room for cleverness in CCP's post-Incarna ant farm, apparently - for ganker or victim alike.
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Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
176
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Posted - 2012.09.07 17:30:00 -
[3448] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:No room for cleverness in CCP's post-Incarna ant farm, apparently - for ganker or victim alike.
Lowest common denominator rakes in the most money in the bean counter's mind. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2084
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Posted - 2012.09.07 17:34:00 -
[3449] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:Easy to suggest all these changes when you're not the one who uses that ship. It's not so easy to get onboard with those changes when you're strictly a miner. Our amount of choices already sucks, having to worry about the best one we got getting nerfed sucks too. Though I do agree it does need some changes, but to the base hp only...I don't see a point in changing anything else about it minus adding more cpu.
Mack got a CPU buff with the update. You can tank them very well even with a hulks base ehp.
I might be part of the corp who brought about the gank destroyers but I also gave miners the supertank barges. We know how to make these things fortresses. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 17:37:00 -
[3450] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:This guy gets it. Sure, if we all can wardec Goons and Razer for free. And their alts. Go ahead and wardec us, and realize just how much of a waste of money it is when you can shoot us for free where we live anyway.
Not to mention if you really want to hurt our tech supply chains, you can do that just fine in highsec and you don't even need a wardec.
All the tools are there, it's your fault and yours alone for not using them. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
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