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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:12:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Tippia on 09/03/2011 17:13:28
 Originally by: Whitehound
But how do you know that these items were actually bought with real money?
The same way they tell in all other instances: by following the money trail back to the farmer (or RMT courier, should he be known).
Quote:
For example: you run an alliance with your own forum. [à]
How could you tell the difference?
Presumably, you've not done this constantly and consistently for the last two years and you've never figured in any other RMT investigations.
Also: woo! Three in a row! 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:17:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Malcanis
And seriously, did you just godwin this thread about MMO RMTing? 
I tell you what, I'll make you a deal;
If he posts his full API in this thread and keeps that API active for 24 hours after he posts it, then I'll post mine for both my accounts.
Alternatively, we can both supply them to a mutually agreed trusted third party for RMT audit. But I'd prefer the public option, keeping things nice and transparent.
You can ask anyone in this game who knows me - I don't scam, I don't cheat, and I always keep my word.
How's that for a deal?
Still a bad deal. For all we know that alt that claimed to have mailed him the link to the thread and forwarded his reply is just another faceless troll looking to drum up some action. This is how you let the jackboots in by falling for unsupported accusations that are not backed up with solid proof. But hey he is an accused jew isk buyer after all so he must be guilty by default. 
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local
[19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:17:00 -
[123]
Honestly, I have my doubts on the authenticity of the list, I think evenews24 just likes stirring up publicity, but who cares, makes for good reading material while I'm stuck at work :P
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:17:00 -
[124]
if this is legit and CCP can somehow follow the ISK transfers from obvious alts to mains, I say ban each and every single one of them. Permanently.
However... I will expect to see a statement from CCP saying, "The logs show nothing. Sorry."
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More stuff goes here. |
TyeBaak
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:18:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Malcanis
I tell you what, I'll make you a deal;
If he posts his full API in this thread and keeps that API active for 24 hours after he posts it, then I'll post mine for both my accounts.
Alternatively, we can both supply them to a mutually agreed trusted third party for RMT audit. But I'd prefer the public option, keeping things nice and transparent.
You can ask anyone in this game who knows me - I don't scam, I don't cheat, and I always keep my word.
How's that for a deal?
Posting APIs in these forums is not permitted. You'd have to take it off-site.
But, TBH there was a post on page 2 that kinda sums my feelings: Kind of a sigh...a 'meh' and perspective on the whole game. You add-in some of the posts in this thread, and it's like stepping out of line and looking back and seeing that I was involved with a bunch of really awful people and I'm not talking about just the RMTers. They are just cheaters. Some of the respondents in this thread appear to be really really awful people with terrible perspectives on the world.
There are too many other good games out there. I think I'll be unchecking the 'auto-renew' button and just keep an eye on this thread for the next few weeks.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:19:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Barakkus
You don't work for CCP or any other MMO company I'm guessing. All of the MMOs out there that do not allow RMT have methods of tracking transactions back to the source and can tell if it's RMT or not. You'd be surprised how much data they keep. For instance in EQ2, I did a server transfer and lost some house items. A GM came on and went through their logs all the way back to when I created the character and tracked down every item's source and where it "ended up". It turned out the items in question hadn't been picked up or moved since some server mergers a year or two prior and ended up with "no owner" so they got deleted during the transfer. The GM was able to successfully replace every item that ended up getting deleted during the server transfer.
Don't be so naive.
I know Eve has asset tracking tools for GMs as back in 2003 I lost the contents of a giant can down in Tenerifis - this was before the time anchoring came in. I was AFG and had no idea about the changes that anchoring brought so when I came back - year or so later - I petitioned.
Much to my surprise all the items were replaced. I suspect that the audit trail isn't as long as it once was but it ought to be long enough to permaban some of the people on that list. Or not if its a "forgery" as some would like us to believe....
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:20:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Janis Ezra
I think this thread wont live long.
a) namecalling
b) CCP dont care
You have to be a billionaire to not care about getting jacked for over a quarter of a million, and ccp aint billionaires.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:20:00 -
[128]
Originally by: TyeBaak
Posting APIs in these forums is not permitted. You'd have to take it off-site.
But, TBH there was a post on page 2 that kinda sums my feelings: Kind of a sigh...a 'meh' and perspective on the whole game. You add-in some of the posts in this thread, and it's like stepping out of line and looking back and seeing that I was involved with a bunch of really awful people and I'm not talking about just the RMTers. They are just cheaters. Some of the respondents in this thread appear to be really really awful people with terrible perspectives on the world.
There are too many other good games out there. I think I'll be unchecking the 'auto-renew' button and just keep an eye on this thread for the next few weeks.
CCP doesn't need to say **** about this really. They have no "responsibility" to do as such and I certainly wouldn't expect them to comment. It's no one's business if they get banned or not. CCP will do their job and we'll sit on the forums pontificating on the subject of RMT until we're blue in the face.
Can I haz ur stuffz?
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Roman Clevik
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:20:00 -
[129]
CCP silence is like a stone
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:22:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 09/03/2011 17:22:36
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
What about the issue of the reliability of the "evidence?"
At any point in the chain of custody names could have been added or removed to/from the db, so how can CCP be expected to enact any enforcement based on it? Are they supposed to go through name-by-name and check each wallet? Only punish "major" offenders? That hardly seems fair?
Very eye-opening, but not really actionable on it's face. Hopefully it works to enlighten CCP and players and maybe discourage people from patronizing such sites.
Because CCP has a copy of the database. Not the one that may or may have not been sent in, theirs.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:29:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Nina Mercedez
So you're saying that the bans due to RMT to this point have had no basis? Presumably CCP never had bank records for those bans, either.
Yes and no. Yes, because unless CCP has got access to the bank accounts can they not say if real money is involved. And no, because it is CCP's game and they can ban people for almost any reason they like.
If you remember, the Unholy Rage was aimed at bots that ate too much CPU power of their servers, not because these were RMTs. These were likely run by ISK sellers, but it did not make it a proof. The proof and the justification for CCP's action was the high CPU usage. A few players ruined the game performance for many, which I as a paying customer find acceptable.
Now, CCP will likely consider players (or IP addresses and ranges) as ISK sellers when they see a high CPU usage for some systems, when there is some automatic routine going on (i.e. 23/7 ratting), or anything else that can be considered to be a bot with a 99%-likelihood.
If CCP can find a connection between such bots and another, regular player then they can use this as a basis for their decision. However, the longer the chain gets the more blurry it also gets and sooner or later will everyone have received ISKs from a bot in some way even if it took 20 other players to get to you.
But do not forget that even our justice system makes mistakes. CCP then bans people for just a day it seems. So if anyone innocent gets caught with it can these players still return. If real money was actually transferred is something one will likely never know.
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GM Grimmi
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:30:00 -
[132]
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans.
While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.
GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
EVE CSS |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:32:00 -
[133]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.
Make sure to schedule a camera crew (and good audio) for that one, because I have a sneaking suspicion that it'll be the presentation that the most non-attendees will be interested inà
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Callum545
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:33:00 -
[134]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans.
While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.
Well first you could start looking at the accounts leaked and look to see if huge amounts of isk have gone to these accounts or accounts associated with them
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Nina Mercedez
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:33:00 -
[135]
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Oriele Aldent
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:35:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Whitehound
But how do you know that these items were actually bought with real money?
For example: you run an alliance with your own forum. One day you are all upset about the failure of your alliance, blame all your members for it and now seek payback. So you take everyone's e-mail address and IP address from the forum software. Then you give away stuff for free or just check your transaction logs or whatever ... and create a list with player names, IP addresses and replace the ISK amounts with real money amounts.
How could you tell the difference?
The truth is that you are missing the final piece of the puzzle - the bank transactions - that make this a real money transfer. So until you have this proof there is no real money involved.
The thing is, CCP don't need a definite proof that there's real money involved. All they need is to suspect it, they don't have to prove it to anyone. Potentially they could just delete every character and still be legally providing the service you paid for as long as you can connect to the server and play. So it boils down to weather CCP consider this list accurate.
Also, though you tried to describe a general possibility, it doesn't really work in this case, as you would have to have given away 2 trillions of isk to seemingly random people.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:35:00 -
[137]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here.
I hope you are looking into it even though you obviously can't comment on it.
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leboe
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:38:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Callum545
Originally by: GM Grimmi
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans.
While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.
Well first you could start looking at the accounts leaked and look to see if huge amounts of isk have gone to these accounts or accounts associated with them
You would be amazed at how people can launder isk.
My favorite example (no proof behind it, but it demonstrates just how bulletproof it can be) is if you take two chars, one with a titan the other with lots of isk (a botting account, for example) and sell the titan through Chribba, from one char to the other. That isk transfer is now legitimate, and you've maintained that the 2 chars are 'different' people so that when the botting account is banned for botting, the person holding the isk is untouched.
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Joe Skellington
Minmatar
JOKAS Industries
Matari Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:38:00 -
[139]
I've seen at least one person on the list posting on the forums awhile back.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:51:00 -
[140]
Dear CCP,
Fix this. If none of your current employees is qualified to do it, hire someone who is.
Your game is broken. Its 'economy' is a farce. You've just been handed a list of perps. Start up the woodchipper and start biomassing toons, deleting accounts and removing the trillions of ISK involved.
Or stay silent, do nothing, and watch your company fail as spectacularly as your game has.
P.S. Make the doll-playing part optional. There's enough performance issues with your game already.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:54:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Whitehound on 09/03/2011 17:55:10
Originally by: Joe Skellington
I've seen at least one person on the list posting on the forums awhile back.
I recognized one player on this list, but this is not my concern, rather his. I also trade with a lot of minerals and sometimes a single player fills my entire buy order with a single load of minerals. An amount for which you would need 10 Hulks and mine for 12 hours for example. I am pretty sure that some who sell me minerals used a macro for mining the ore.
What is more concerning is that if CCP is effective in their fight against RMTs then the RMTs could try to fight back by hurting the EVE community and with leaked lists of their customers. In other words, if they (RMTs) cannot make their money then they burn their customers only to take them with them. I doubt there is much moral among RMTs not to do this. I certainly do not wish to be caught in any of it.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:55:00 -
[142]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Dear CCP,
Fix this. If none of your current employees is qualified to do it, hire someone who is.
Your game is broken. Its 'economy' is a farce. You've just been handed a list of perps. Start up the woodchipper and start biomassing toons, deleting accounts and removing the trillions of ISK involved.
Or stay silent, do nothing, and watch your company fail as spectacularly as your game has.
P.S. Make the doll-playing part optional. There's enough performance issues with your game already.
You're not very bright are you?
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Killer Gandry
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:01:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Barakkus
You're not very bright are you?
Being bright isn't a requirement to play EVE.
Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:01:00 -
[144]
Originally by: leboe
You would be amazed at how people can launder isk.
My favorite example (no proof behind it, but it demonstrates just how bulletproof it can be) is if you take two chars, one with a titan the other with lots of isk (a botting account, for example) and sell the titan through Chribba, from one char to the other. That isk transfer is now legitimate, and you've maintained that the 2 chars are 'different' people so that when the botting account is banned for botting, the person holding the isk is untouched.
Dude, remember, better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open oneÆs mouth and remove all doubt. (Your example is asinine, unless being minus one titan is your idea of 'untouched'.)
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:02:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Barakkus
You're not very bright are you?
Being bright isn't a requirement to play EVE.
lol hey Killer, how you doin' baldy? 
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Myz Toyou
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:10:00 -
[146]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans.
While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.
Sorry Grimmi,
if your so called methods and tools would be of any use these kind of threads wouldnt appear 
And for the permanent ban part: I know someone who used to run a bot in Stain and he was back after 3 days... go figure 
Also in before Icarantus and KiaDuplex who will tell us the earth is flat.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:18:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Myz Toyou
And for the permanent ban part: I know someone who used to run a bot in Stain and he was back after 3 days... go figure
I believe their policy is to temp ban then permaban after a certain threshold of bannings is reached. They do want to retain customers ya know. While I think they should permaban on violation 1, it doesn't hurt to give people the opportunity to reform.
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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DurrHurrDurr
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:18:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Myz Toyou
Originally by: GM Grimmi
We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans.
While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail.
Sorry Grimmi,
if your so called methods and tools would be of any use these kind of threads wouldnt appear
And for the permanent ban part: I know someone who used to run a bot in Stain and he was back after 3 days... go figure
Also in before Icarantus and KiaDuplex who will tell us the earth is flat.
Bunch of dudes in the NC have received ~warnings~ for confirmed botting, which is funny as hell.
They really don't care; it drives the PLEX market and makes them more money. You guys keep thinking they'll do anything about it. They'll stomp out enough of these RMTers to make a nice devblog about it, calm down the forum uproar, and then ignore it for another year until you peasants need to be calmed down again.
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:20:00 -
[149]
So how does an out-of-game transaction manage to outcompete the ingame PLEX market despite all the added risks (both in game and out of game)? If nothing else, this must give CCP a wonderful dataset to analyze the business model of an RMT organization and model the impact of different ways of disrupting them.
The sum of money on the table to be reclaimed from the RMT trader business will easily pay the salary of a full time analyst :)
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:20:00 -
[150]
How about some of the Corps and/or alliances stepping up and publicly kicking members who appear on this list?
Or, heaven forbid, a CSM candidate whose corpmates/alliancemates appear on the list step up and say something?
A short perusal of the list and looking them up in-game yielded some interesting trends.
Throwaway alts or not, a lot of these chars are currently members of someone's corp.
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