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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:41:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Whitehound... you constantly keep saying that anyone can make these lists up. I already pointed earlier that this is not just random list of random game aliases, but list with real names linked to game aliases and emails.
I did not miss it, Grey. You missed where I explained that one can get such a list in different ways, i.e. by running your own game forum. You then can collect IP numbers, player names and email addresses if you ask for it in the registration process. Any idea how many corporations and alliances run their own forum and do have this information?
How many of them also keep records of payments of real cash for items?
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:41:00 -
[182]
A certain percentage of the playerbase are bots, that is a given.
That there is a tolerable level is also a given for Eve's owners, providing the game is robust and CCPs cash-flow is healthy enough to pay the bills and make a profit. Spending an inordinate amount of resources to combat this scourge doesn't make sense either.
I expect vermin in the world's food warehouses could be eradicated completely, but at what cost?
I enjoy the game, the economy seems stable enough, and I know I've been in systems with bots but they don't bother me. I earn my Isk legitimately and ultimately, the satisfaction I get from the challenges I undertake and overcome is where I get the value of my subscription.
I am interested in how all this plays out, but it will not stop me from logging in tonight.
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:43:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 09/03/2011 19:27:50
Originally by: Barakkus All of you whining about how there's no way to tell if it's RMT or not are over simplifying what they do to investigate RMT.
You can whine about it all you want, but they can and do identify what is RMT and what is not.
And you cannot deny it that if CCP is being more and more successful in their fight against RMTs that the fight will only get harder and that it will affect innocent players. There is a war going on between CCP and the RMTs and no war is ever clean or perfect.
If you are playing EVE long enough then you know that in the wars we play in-game never anything is the way it seems. There is spying, meta gaming, propaganda, etc.. Why would you think that it is different in the real world? Because it is a wonderful thought to think that someone provides CCP will the ultimate list of cheaters? What a wonderful thought ... The V's have visted us and brought with them the list of EVE cheaters \o/
This list could be true, it could be bait, it could be completely false. I would not trust it in the world or for anything if I was CCP. I hope CCP just continues going after RMTs the way they know best.
Again with the strawman that CCP will - or should - ban anyone purely based on this list
HAY EVERYONE WHITEHOUND BUYS ISK!
Well damb, now you're gonna get banned or lose all your ISK right? because an unsupported accusation from a random source is all it takes?
No, in fact CCP will investigate your account to see if you have received large amounts of ISK from known ISK mules. And they'll not even bother investigating you because of my accusation because I'm not a credible source of information. I have no way of knowing anything about your economic activity.
But a list of ISK buyers provided by an ISK seller merits a rather closer look. Again, it's not in itself sufficient evidence for any direct action, but it definitely is enough to merit taking a close look at the characters listed. And if any accounts are punished or banned, it will be because of that investigation, not because they're on that list.
All your fear-mongering strawmanning is stuff that has been posted and refuted many times. No, you don't get punished for accidentally selling a few cans of ore to an ISK buyer. Yes you will get punished if you're found to have "luckily" sold 1 defender missile for 2 billion ISK to a guy called IskBank017 who also bought multiple other individual defender missiles for massive prices.
But I suppose you'll ignore that, just as you defend "players" who continue warping their pods between belt and station for 10 hours after getting the mining barge ganked as "having their own playstyle".
Anyway, as you'll ignore all of that and make more ludicrious Godwinising comments, I'll comfort myself that maybe someone else will read and understand why you're so full of it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Arasul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:43:00 -
[184]
Posting to thank evenews24. And to say for gods sake CCP do something about this, how hard can it be. I could petition a macro ratter every 5 minutes in stain if I thought you'd actually pull your finger out. Get a grip.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:46:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Whitehound And you cannot deny it that if CCP is being more and more successful in their fight against RMTs
Not to nitpick here Whitehound, but I see absolutely zero evidence of this "success".
All I saw when I went to take stock of the damage of HAG, was tons of pods stitting belts long after their wrecks had been salvaged... This seems to me, to be more evidence of the contrary...
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Ephemeron
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:46:00 -
[186]
We need more community driven hacking attacks against ISK selling websites.
That should go hand in hand with whatever measures CCP implements to combat bots in game. Ideally there should be communication between CCP and the hacker groups, so they can share intelligence for smarter target selection.
I hope we see more of this in near future
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Hermosa Diosas
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:47:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Hermosa Diosas on 09/03/2011 19:48:31 Edited by: Hermosa Diosas on 09/03/2011 19:47:37 OK OK Firstly you have to stop calling these guys cheaters and scum yada yada. They not cheating anything, they are using a GAME MECHANIC to make real money. To be honest most people would do it if they had the know how or the bottle. I mean thousands of pounds just by setting up some bots and ratting isk? no brainer! (And before you think it i dont do it no!)
Why because the GAME allows them to do it..This is purely the fault of CCP this happens. If they wanted to stop this happening they could do very easily.
Remove Local Use some captcha method for mining Encrypt the local client data instead of having free text List goes on..
CCP choose not to even bother about this cos it generates income! Why cut off the hand that feeds you?
They have to do the token gesture on actually account hacking, but for botting and macros nothing.
And why do you think CCP introduce PLEX? Think about it..
Need to wake up and smell the coffee gentlemen.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:47:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Whitehound
And you cannot deny it that if CCP is being more and more successful in their fight against RMTs that the fight will only get harder and that it will affect innocent players.
It never changes actually, it's just a self-perpetuating situation for every MMO company. There is no sure-fired way to stop RMT in any MMO. People do get banned that shouldn't and upon pursuing the matter usually get un-banned.
Here's an example...in August 2006 SOE took down EQ2, in it's entirety for a whole week. It seems there was a way to dupe items that was worse than previous dupe exploits that they caught on to. During that week they had to re-engineer the market back end and some other stuff before they could bring the servers back up it was so bad. They initially tried to make all cash from market transactions appear on your character directly, but found something wrong with that, so they started mailing the money...but that was broken too. Eventually they said **** it and took everything offline and rolled everything back a week or so since the exploit got out there and was being heavily used. Thousands upon thousands of people were banned, some of which were innocent. A friend of mine got banned because he was receiving more money than the sales from the market were supposed to be depositing. I guess if you zoned at the exact time there was a market transaction taking place for your character it would duplicate the money. After a week or two with the petition stuff he got got his account unbanned.
**** happens, and RMT is the bane of all MMOs that don't allow it. CCP has a unique approach to it with GTC and PLEX, but it still won't ever completely eradicate the problem. No matter what they do, short of just shutting down EVE, RMT will always be out there, and they will continue to ban/punish people they can determine with 99.999999999999999% accuracy that it is indeed RMT. There will be a small number of people banned that were legit, but in the vast majority of cases, someone ****ed up and stupidly bought dirty game currency. Part of the reason they don't permaban immediately is due to the margin of error in detecting RMT, which is probably how it should be from a business standpoint as well. You don't exactly want to just outright cut off income and lose subscribers due to the off chance that someone legit gets banned.
All the blah, blah, blah "what about those of us who are going to cancel zomg b/c we're fed up?!?!?!!" Well, in all honesty, those people should just gtfo now because they're pretty useless as a customer if they're going to throw a temper tantrum all the time. It costs more to keep the "I'm taking my stuff and going home" types happy than it's worth in a lot of cases. What you see on the forums is less than 5% of the playerbase, and it's usually the most vocal...so really it doesn't mean **** when people start screaming about cancelling this that or the other thing on the internet.
When they don't ban someone it's either because they want to more data to trace other RMT accounts with or they just can not be certain that RMT was taking place. Same reason they can't eradicate all bots...someone will find a way around getting caught, and CCP will have to discover this new method and deal with that as well...it's a never ending cycle...and something we're just going to have to live with.
I personally don't really give a **** as long as there's some semblance of effort being put into catching cheaters. There's only so much you can do, and will never be 100% effective. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:48:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Whitehound on 09/03/2011 19:55:53
Originally by: baltec1 How many of them also keep records of payments of real cash for items?
How many can you prove to be correct? Non. So you can add any number to it.
I already wrote that without the proof of the real money transfer you could also write "$0" behind each name. What would then be the meaning of this list? --
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:49:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Whitehound And you cannot deny it that if CCP is being more and more successful in their fight against RMTs
Not to nitpick here Whitehound, but I see absolutely zero evidence of this "success".
All I saw when I went to take stock of the damage of HAG, was tons of pods stitting belts long after their wrecks had been salvaged... This seems to me, to be more evidence of the contrary...
Not that I want to back him up but CCP is much much better at dealing with people who buy the isk the bots make.
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ed jeni
SKULLDOGS RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:49:00 -
[191]
I was going to post a long thread that condenses down to basically, i buy GTC's from SC and either sell em on forum or convert to plex, i use this isk to fund our corp in 0.0 and supply a decent ship replacement program so that pvp lolz can be had by all. so whats the difference between me buying isk for ú$ and RMT ? well the difference is my ú$ goes to CCP who should use that income to grow the game i love to play, to be better and worth my time. But time and again over the last few years CCP are letting me down with broken game mechanics that seem to never get fixed and shiny new space barbie that i neither asked for, nor want. yes CCP get income from bot accounts but sure as hell they loose a ton more from the isk those bots launder to other accounts. EVE is being tarnished with the huge number of bots running within the game, which is a 2 fold problem, 1 players leave and rage-quit as they think BOT derived isk gives the elite few players/corps/alliances an unfair advantage. 2 new people don't sign up as its not a secret among the MMO community that EVE has become a game populated by bots (and who wants to play when that's the case) of course its not that bad yet, but given CCP's attitude and approach to the problem over the last year it sure as hell soon will be. and before u post a reply asking, no you cant haz it ! so basically will the last live player to leave tranquility please turn off the lights, and dont let the door hit you on the way out.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:49:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Hermosa Diosas Edited by: Hermosa Diosas on 09/03/2011 19:47:37 OK OK Firstly you have to stop calling these guys cheaters and scum yada yada. They not cheating anything, they are using a GAME MECHANIC to make real money.
It's against the stated rules of the game, therefore cheating. Oversimplification ftw. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:51:00 -
[193]
I haven't seen this much of a concerted 'muddy the waters' effort since the Monkeyspank hack went public.
Unfortunately y'all are cluttering up this thread while making it hard for people to find my posts.
Differentiating between bots/addicts and rmt/legitimate scams was exceedingly difficult UNTIL NOW. CCP just had all the evidence they need and more handed to them on a silver platter. Real names. Credit card #. Dates. Amounts.
There is no excuse for them not to act. Decisively.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:52:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: baltec1 How many of them also keep records of payments of real cash for items?
How many can you prove to be correct? No. So you can add any number to it.
I already wrote that without the proof of the real money transfer you could also write "$0" behind each name. What would then be the meaning of this list?
They have their credit cards and other personal info that they are not going to be giving out to the public. Sorry but that is far too much evidence to just say "gotta be fake". You do sound like you are deperatly trying to cast some mist over this.
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sHERU
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:52:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Ghengis Tia A certain percentage of the playerbase are bots, that is a given.
That there is a tolerable level is also a given for Eve's owners, providing the game is robust and CCPs cash-flow is healthy enough to pay the bills and make a profit. Spending an inordinate amount of resources to combat this scourge doesn't make sense either.
I expect vermin in the world's food warehouses could be eradicated completely, but at what cost?
I enjoy the game, the economy seems stable enough, and I know I've been in systems with bots but they don't bother me. I earn my Isk legitimately and ultimately, the satisfaction I get from the challenges I undertake and overcome is where I get the value of my subscription.
I am interested in how all this plays out, but it will not stop me from logging in tonight.
The +/- $345,000 that went to iskbank (read: Vadims pockets) could have potentialy ended up in ccp's pockets.
There are more online shops like these, and I don't dare to ponder how much money goes around in this market. But I am pretty sure it will be more then plenty to fund a few devs to work on some nice features for EVE Online. SOONÖ |
Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:54:00 -
[196]
Originally by: baltec1
They have their credit cards and other personal info that they are not going to be giving out to the public. Sorry but that is far too much evidence to just say "gotta be fake". You do sound like you are deperatly trying to cast some mist over this.
Because everything you read on the internet must be true! - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:55:00 -
[197]
What about the other half of the equation? Are we to assume that iskbank's handful of employees accumulate all of that isk to sell? Using bots, etc. in NPC corps?
Or do they also buy isk for resale? If they had some source for large, regular volumes of isk that they can buy and resell at 50%-100% markup...
Bah...crazy...who could possibly accumulate so much isk on a regular basis?
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:55:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Malcanis HAY EVERYONE WHITEHOUND BUYS ISK!
Fail. You forgot to write how much I have bought like the list does.
Originally by: Malcanis No, in fact CCP will investigate your account to see if you have received large amounts of ISK from known ISK mules.
I do not mean to brag, but if I look at Chribba's EVEBoard am I already among the 100 richest players on his board. And I have many transactions over my wallet every day, being a trader. I am pretty sure that some can be found in my transaction log.
Originally by: Malcanis Anyway, as you'll ignore all of that and make more ludicrious Godwinising comments ...
I bet my use of Godwin did hurt. --
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:56:00 -
[199]
Originally by: sHERU I am pretty sure it will be more then plenty to fund a few devs to work on some nice features for World of Vampires and Space Barbies.
Fixed.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:56:00 -
[200]
Originally by: sHERU
There are more online shops like these, and I don't dare to ponder how much money goes around in this market. But I am pretty sure it will be more then plenty to fund a few devs to work on some nice features for EVE Online.
RMT is a multi-billion dollar industry. Why do you think China cracked down on RMT companies a year or two ago? They weren't getting their cut of the profits. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:56:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
What about the other half of the equation? Are we to assume that iskbank's handful of employees accumulate all of that isk to sell? Using bots, etc. in NPC corps?
Or do they also buy isk for resale? If they had some source for large, regular volumes of isk that they can buy and resell at 50%-100% markup...
Bah...crazy...who could possibly accumulate so much isk on a regular basis?
The russians? It does have a russian site afterall.
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:57:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Whitehound
I did not miss it, Grey. You missed where I explained that one can get such a list in different ways, i.e. by running your own game forum. You then can collect IP numbers, player names and email addresses if you ask for it in the registration process. Any idea how many corporations and alliances run their own forum and do have this information?
Player names, email addresses yes - real names and phone numbers on bigger scale - unlikely. If something fishy can be found from isk transaction logs, this leaked data together with the logs will be solid enough for accurate actions if ccp chooses to do something.
If we would be talking about single character I would agree that above information could be forged. On big scale however isk source prolly can be traced down to something and if the source links with all characters on the list... you get the picture.
------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Ephemeron
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:58:00 -
[203]
You can't win the war if you only play defense. And that's what CCP is doing
There has to be an active and relentless offensive, attacking on all fronts, not just in-game, but using out of game tactics, such as hacker attacks, DoS'ing the websites, exposing private information of those involved.
The people in RMT business need to have real FEAR of doing business. Without fear, there can be no change in behavior.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:03:00 -
[204]
Helicity - all hulkageddon proves is people dont know how to read the forums.
Also I have seen CCP in action killing off botter, I myself have reported several, added them to my watch list to watch their behavior then a few days after my petition went in, they stopped logging in. You have to understand bot's are like roaches, for every roach you kill 5 more pop up into its place.
Next if you really want to help stop RMT and botting, look up some of those lvl 3 and lvl 4 courier agents fly to them and watch as you can sit there for 8-12 hours and see the same haulers docking and undocking. Repeatedly, if you get people to watch in groups you are going to see that most of the bots are haulers doing courier missions.
FINALLY Name a single mmo that doesnt have a bot of somesort?
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Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:04:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Malcanis No, in fact CCP will investigate your account to see if you have received large amounts of ISK from known ISK mules.
I do not mean to brag, but if I look at Chribba's EVEBoard am I already among the 100 richest players on his board. And I have many transactions over my wallet every day, being a trader. I am pretty sure that some can be found in my transaction log.
Ah, you are worried that people on that list have provided you with ISK, and thus you may be implicated and punished?
I'm all for that if it gets you off my forums.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:05:00 -
[206]
First, I am not quite sure what happened.
Second, if it is that iskbank was an isk seller engaged in RMT, how did they get the word out they sold isk?
Very confusing.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:05:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Snuffallahpagus
Originally by: GM Grimmi At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus...
Will you ever be?
/me shrugs.
I will translate Grimmi's politik-speak for you:
"At this time we cannot comment on why we are wholly ineffectual at fighting botting and RMT, because our meagre salaries are paid for by the subscription and plex income generated by thousands upon thousands of Bot accounts."
I am disappointed, but not surprised.
You are one of the biggest scumbags in EvE without question, for you to be dissapointed about it says a lot.
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Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:08:00 -
[208]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: sHERU I am pretty sure it will be more then plenty to fund a few devs to work on some nice features for World of Vampires and Space Barbies.
Hi, I keep forgetting that CCP Whitewolf has nothing to do with CCP EvE online and they get their own seperate funding from the Vampire the Masquerade books and other World of Darkness related sales.
Seriously why to people keep forgetting White Wolf is an independant entity. All they really did was just add CCP infront of their name. Also why are people so narrow minded to think CCP's only form of income is from eve online? DOES NO ONE remember pen and paper RPG's?
*goes down to the game store and points at a full book shelf of World of Darkness books and Vampire the Masquerade books with a clearly printed logo of CCP White Wolf.* That's where the funding for their Vampire MMO is coming from!
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:08:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa First, I am not quite sure what happened.
Second, if it is that iskbank was an isk seller engaged in RMT, how did they get the word out they sold isk?
Very confusing.
You find it with a google search, along with the many others.
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Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:10:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Ephemeron You can't win the war if you only play defense. And that's what CCP is doing
There has to be an active and relentless offensive, attacking on all fronts, not just in-game, but using out of game tactics, such as hacker attacks, DoS'ing the websites, exposing private information of those involved.
The people in RMT business need to have real FEAR of doing business. Without fear, there can be no change in behavior.
I don't condone any illegal activity in order to crack down on RMT.
On the other hand I'm all for CCP publishing a list of anyone warned or banned for it. The very fact that Eve is a single universe makes that kind of punishment effective (assuming they identify the "main" character involved).
While there is a market for their "service" there will always be RMT. The trick is to reduce the demand because you'll never beat the supply.
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