First

Edit: Looks good, but I am really gonna miss the +5% microwarpdrive capacitor bonus on the thorax

I already only ever see shield null thoraxes. I think after this it's going to get to the point where people ask if I'm seriously fitting an armour tank to my thorax, like it's weird or something.

General question: have you considered the effects those buffs will have on battlecruisers, specifcly the Cane? Haven't really looked into it, but i'm not sure the cane needs another indirect buff. Granted, tier 2 bcs are going to get reviewed anyway, but still, could make the arty cane even stronger than it is today.

Not happy with the thorax. With an 800 plate I can fit only IONs with a 1600 plate I cant even fit electrons without fitting mods. On the shield side it barely fits with the lack of cpu. looks like you will not have tank or gank on this ship at the moment.

Stabber looks awesome though it is soo soo much faster than the other three may be kinda imbalanced.

Would it be possible to exchange the caracal's missile velocity bonus for one of explosion velocity to better fit into the idea of attack cruisers being close range?

I would also strongly consider giving Medium class Pulse lasers an extra 1-2km base range. Right now, Autocannons ( better tracking, no capacitor, etc) can achieve so much better range. Pulses with scorch should be able to hit about 30km before any TE/TC's are ever added.

This would be a good balancing issue rather than boosting their DPS, which is pretty limited.

Did you take into account the 25% engineering bonus to PG and the 25% electronics bonus to cpu, as well as weapon upgrades and AWU?

Caracal:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity
Slot layout: 5 H, 5 M, 4 L (+2), 2 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 630 PWG (+100), 430 CPU (+80)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700(+137) / 1200(+145) / 1500(+171)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+187.5) / 445s(+63.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+47) / 0.425 / 12910000 / 5.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km / 270(+28) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Gravimetric (+1)
Signature radius: 135 (-10)
Cargo capacity: 450

Yep with max skills

Does the Caracal really need 100km range in its missiles? Wouldn't it be better if it worked better at a slightly more reasonable range?

wivabel:

[Thorax, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

this is now... I think we'll be fine with the new layout with 30 extra cpu for MOAR WEBBING! considering the overall preformance the single PG rig isn't exactly a crippling weakness ^_^

it is dumb to need a fitting mod to fit the smallest guns

it is dumb to need a fitting mod to fit the smallest guns

...



Caracal should always be a long range missile platform and should never not be.
.

As previously stated quite a few times, they want to look at the range of heavy missiles. Caracal has always had this bonus, i don't see why it becomes OP now, when it can actually use it to a reasonable extent.

it is dumb to need a fitting mod to fit the smallest guns

Not happy with the thorax. With an 800 plate I can fit only IONs with a 1600 plate I cant even fit electrons without fitting mods. looks like you will not have tank or gank on this ship at the moment.

Ok I take it back it seems to fit out well on the shield side are you guys leaning towards a shield setup because that is what it looks like.

Stabber looks awesome though it is soo soo much faster than the other three may be kinda imbalanced.

Stabber:
4 Turrets
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
So CCP Fozzie now that the Stabber is basically the new Minmatar Shuttle how do you plan to rebalance the Minmatar Shuttle into an Attack Cruiser?

alara: you are aware that the stabber has always had that weapon layout right? 4 turrets 2 launchers and 6 highs with a drone for essentially giggles ^_^

Not when you are fitting a 1600mm plate designed for battleships and a MicroWarpDrive on top of those 5 medium sized guns...
Back in the days you would have to use small frigate guns if you wanted a 1600mm plate.

So where does this leave the Phantasm, the Navy Exequoror, and the Vigilant?

I am actually showing the stabber slower after buff now without its old speed bonus. I am in game sitting in a stabber with no speed mods and it shows 360.9 m/s and the new speed is 285 m/s. Maybe i am not seeing something. Old Bonus was 5% faster per level.

5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed

Reading that as rate of fire, but can you confirm?

Reading that as rate of fire, but can you confirm?

I'll start off with the orphan announcement. In the Attack Cruiser thread we also announced changes to medium gun fittings. We're going to be changing the hurricane at the same time but I wanted that thread to stay dedicated to the specific cruiser balance instead of getting derailed so we're moving that here.
Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.
The hurricane will likely receive significantly more changes when we get to battlecruisers in the balance pass, but this is designed as a compensation for the drop in Arty PG and to help alleviate the problem of Arty ships having so much free PG when they use autocannons.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. These changes look awesome. It's good to see the omen getting some much needed love.

Expect the Vexor to receive a Repair bonus in line with Incursus and Myrmidon...

I'd be ok with that (if it was 10% like the incursus), but it'd mean losing one of the two solid bonuses it already has

And also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that adding a ton of drones to every other ship in the game besides gallente hulls is a serious problem.

Welp... Guess I can't call it the Crapacal anymore. That thing is gonna actually be kinda mean.

Amarr drone boats have always had more versatility in drones than Gallente. The sentinel, curse, and pilgrim have a larger drone bay with smaller bandwidth to support this.

Expect to see more drones on amarr ships as CCP has chosen drones as amarr's secondary weapon system. I expect Gal hulls will maintain their higher bandwidth as they are more reliant on drone dps.

[quote=Grog Drinker]
I'm okay with the arbi/pilgrim/curse getting the drones as I like flying those ships, but the other ships don't need and should not have them. All you will see on that omen is ecm-300s and sniperish high dps ship

I'm okay with the arbi/pilgrim/curse getting the drones as I like flying those ships, but the other ships don't need and should not have them. All you will see on that omen is ecm-300s and sniperish high dps ship

I'm okay with the arbi/pilgrim/curse getting the drones as I like flying those ships, but the other ships don't need and should not have them. All you will see on that omen is ecm-300s and sniperish high dps ship

No love for medium rails?

Agreed, those things are still hard to fit, cap intensive, and terribad tracking :(

Regarding Omen & Thorax

The Omen & Thorax still cant fit 1600mm plate without tons of fitting mods, which makes them only having 30%-40% of the HP of a buffer BC. You can make them as fast as you want, with such little HP and price is same region of a BCs these cruiser still have no purpose in the game, as BC will still do everything better.
Addionally Omen will suffer hard on capacitor, with ROF sucking cap like crazy.
Removing the cap bonus from Thorax and giving it the 4th medium slot for cap booster is really strange, as you are forced to have a cap booster now always.

At first glance i really loved each and every one of them. Unfortunatly then i read the missile rebalance.
With these combinations of buffs and debuffs i can easily get the Omen and Thorax to the same range as a caracal, but apply about 100-150 dps more

I agree that some heavy missile boats deserve a nerf (most notably the Drake, nighthawk, tengu) but this nerf makes other Heavy missile boats like the caracal, new Bellicose, the rook, the cerberus a little weak in comparison to other long range cruisers.

The biggest reason to this is the fact that Missile boats don't have an equivallent of Tracking computers or Tracking enhancers and thus needed there base range to be higher.

So can you please check if the -25% range and -20% damage is really in line with the other redesigned cruisers with keeping in mind of the reduced possiblities of upgradeing there range

The biggest reason to this is the fact that Missile boats don't have an equivallent of Tracking computers or Tracking enhancers and thus needed there base range to be higher.

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

Regarding Omen & Thorax

The Omen & Thorax still cant fit 1600mm plate without tons of fitting mods

The Omens the change I really like. Thorax too but I would prefer an extra low over the Shield Fit everyone will be flying. Give it some good Dmg as an Armor setup.

Yep with max skills

...you can still buffer tank them decently if you downgrade guns.

The thorax need more powergrid or everyone wll just shield tank it.
NOW it need a Ancillary current router to fit electrons and a 1600, if you want to ions and a 800 you still have fitting problems, with four mids a shield tank is best.
I too would shield tank it and i hate shields

Addionally Omen will suffer hard on capacitor, with ROF sucking cap like crazy.

These things are supposed to be fast,

Stop complaining your god damn 1600-¦s wont fit ffs..

Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)

Everything looks good here except for this fascination CCP seems to have with giving gallente ships more structure. Sure it's "racial," but nobody gives a **** about structure tanking because there really is no such thing outside of comedy fits. If you want to change the defense on the ship, just remove more of the structure and leave the shields/armor. Seriously, these things are already very thin as it is, so reducing the shields and armor like you have here just does not make sense.

CCP please give the Stabber a full flight of small drones and 5th gun.

If you don't people will just continue to use the Rupture and they will use the Bellicose or it in the kiting role you set up for the Stabber.

Nerf the speed a bit if you have to but give just it a little more Dmg please.

Also the Caracal could use some work with the Heavy Nerf.

The stabber 5 m3 drone bay is silly. Get rid of the missiles slot, add a turret slot and 25m3 drone bay.

Actually it having any drones is silly. Keep it as it is and remove the drone.

Stabber:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Slot layout: 6 H, 4 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 Turrets, 2 Launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG (+15), 340 CPU (+40)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+137.5) / 427.5s(+46.25s) / 2.8(+0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 285(+54) / 0.5(+0.02) / 11400000 / 5.3s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km(+7.5) / 320(+15) / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 105
Cargo capacity: 420

Actually it having any drones is silly. Keep it as it is and remove the drone.

And add a gun.

That is silly as well. Under microwarp that thing moves 2,392 m/s (that is not overheating or other speed modules). So you want longest damage projection, fastest ship, pretty decent tank, no capacitor use for weapons, and a titan-ton of damage? Yup that sounds balanced to me. Ship it.

The stabber 5 m3 drone bay is silly. Get rid of the missiles slot, add a turret slot and 25m3 drone bay.

That is silly as well. Under microwarp that thing moves 2,392 m/s (that is not overheating or other speed modules). So you want longest damage projection, fastest ship, pretty decent tank, no capacitor use for weapons, and a titan-ton of damage? Yup that sounds balanced to me. Ship it.

Yeah, that won't be unbalanced at all!~

It can currently move at that speed and no one uses it. Even with a Drone Bay and a Gun it will still do less Damage then the Rupture which is used currently and has one more low for an extra TD making the bonus all the less spectacular.

I don't care if they knock 30m/s off of it, it needs more Dmg if it is going to be used at all. Otherwise it is in the same position it was in before.


It honestly would not. The ship would have a worse tank then the Vaga and less Dmg with worse fitting and slots.

It would be a baby Vagabond.

With the falloff bonus i'm pretty sure it will outdps the rupture at 20 km? I havn't done the math though so i could be wrong.

CCP, quit giving drones out to everyone and their mother just because you hate Gallente!!!!

Just my two cents from a true Gallentean,
Yun

I don't care if they knock 30m/s off of it, it needs more Dmg if it is going to be used at all. Otherwise it is in the same position it was in before.

Still not convinced that axing grid and reducing arty requirement is the way to make sure auto boats are not free-to-fit-anything + max dps.
Yes, ships designed for artillery has a massive surplus when fitting autos, but wouldn't increasing auto fittings solve that just as well without making artillery a lot more viable on other races hulls?

Thorax is going to be the new FoTM. Dual prop it and abuse that tracking bonus .. holy mother of the sacred hot potato .. hope you nerf/remove ECM drones before that goes live or space risks being very bland (more than now) indeed

Omen:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L (+1), 5 turrets
Fittings: 925 PWG (+195), 315 CPU (+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1475(+225) / 526s(+79.75s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+44) / 0.51(-0.05) / 11650000 / 5.6s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40(+30) / 40(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km(+10) / 300(+7) / 6(-1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 125
Cargo capacity: 400(-50)

Oh god no. The Rupture has 4 extra drones, 25% more Dmg and room for an extra TE.

The Stabber will be left in the dust. The bonus and slot give it a little extra DPS we are talking below 300 before falloff starts cutting it off and that is with missiles and lower with Barrage.

Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)

Everything looks good here except for this fascination CCP seems to have with giving gallente ships more structure. Sure it's "racial," but nobody gives a **** about structure tanking because there really is no such thing outside of comedy fits. If you want to change the defense on the ship, just remove more of the structure and leave the shields/armor. Seriously, these things are already very thin as it is, so reducing the shields and armor like you have here just does not make sense.

The thorax got more CPU, not more PG. That extra mid is so you can fit an ASB (see increased cargo hold as well), the new FOTM. I doubt many will dual-prop it.

Alongside the announcement of these ships, we're also proposing some adjustment to the fitting requirements of certain medium sized turrets which will help us keep the fittings of several ships within better ranges as we go forward:
-Drop the powergrid usage of Focused Medium Pulse lasers by 5%
-Drop the powergrid usage of Heavy Pulse lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized beam lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized artillery by 10%

Omen:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L (+1), 5 turrets
Fittings: 925 PWG (+195), 315 CPU (+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1475(+225) / 526s(+79.75s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+44) / 0.51(-0.05) / 11650000 / 5.6s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40(+30) / 40(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km(+10) / 300(+7) / 6(-1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 125
Cargo capacity: 400(-50)

Caracal:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity
Slot layout: 5 H, 5 M, 4 L (+2), 2 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 630 PWG (+100), 430 CPU (+80)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700(+137) / 1200(+145) / 1500(+171)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+187.5) / 445s(+63.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+47) / 0.425 / 12910000 / 5.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km / 270(+28) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Gravimetric (+1)
Signature radius: 135 (-10)
Cargo capacity: 450

Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)

Stabber:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Slot layout: 6 H, 4 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 Turrets, 2 Launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG (+15), 340 CPU (+40)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+137.5) / 427.5s(+46.25s) / 2.8(+0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 285(+54) / 0.5(+0.02) / 11400000 / 5.3s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km(+7.5) / 320(+15) / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 105
Cargo capacity: 420

As things are now certainly, but ASB's are getting changed so I chose to ignore that broken POS in my comment

But the intention is clearly ASBs or cap injection with a cargohold that size and +1 mid.

Damn, this ship is going to be somewhere between the Navy Caracal and Navy Osprey in mobility. This ship combined with missiles and ewar is going to be ******* brutal.

I'll have to play around with it, but at a glance I'm not excited. That makes me sad because the Omen was the ship I was most excited about.

I guess it's a big improvement, but I don't think it's going to compete with the Caracal and Thorax.

-Liang

I mean now a shield thorax can do MWD, point, web/hardener, extender/shieldbooster/capbooster.

Because, let's face it, none of these ships are going to armor tank with the exception of the Omen.

Stabber:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Slot layout: 5 H(-1), 4 M (+1), 5 L (+2), 4 Turrets, 1 Launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG (+15), 350 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+137.5) / 427.5s(+46.25s) / 2.8(+0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 285(+54) / 0.5(+0.02) / 11400000 / 5.3s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 15
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km(+7.5) / 320(+15) / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 105
Cargo capacity: 420

Methinks somebody has not read the missile nerf thread.

What were you hoping for?

I don't think it will compete with the current Rupture.

What I was honestly hoping to see was a fast and agile Omen with optimal range + damage bonus instead of ROF+Cap. I'm also disappointed by how many drones are being thrown onto the newly buffed ships.

It'll work just like the Vaga/Cynabal do, except be worse at it. I imagine a kiting Stabber would beat a Rupture handily.

-Liang

No, I read it. The 25% range nerf is totally meaningless to HML and the 20% damage nerf is completely offset by the extra fittings and low slots on the Caracal. The ship is tons better than it is today. I haven't looked at whether or not HAMs are legit on the Caracal yet, but HAM + TE might be pretty amazing as well.

-Liang

No, I read it. The 25% range nerf is totally meaningless to HML and the 20% damage nerf is completely offset by the extra fittings and low slots on the Caracal. The ship is tons better than it is today. I haven't looked at whether or not HAMs are legit on the Caracal yet, but HAM + TE might be pretty amazing as well.

-Liang

Personally, I'm of the opinion it might actually be better off with Light Assault launchers with Fury lights loaded. It might actually get better (or just similar) DPS than an HML Caracal with possibly smaller explosion radii and with a greater explosion velocity, while also being quite capable against frigates with a quick ammo swap. Also, the Light Assault launchers have lower fitting requirements than HML's, and the range won't be too short with the Light Missiles, even Furies. I also think the increased lows will greatly improve its effectiveness against frigates.

These things are supposed to be fast,

Stop complaining your god damn 1600-¦s wont fit ffs..

Good point. Especially with the changes to explosion radius and the extra 10% dmg light missiles get.

Not happy with the thorax. With an 800 plate I can fit only IONs with a 1600 plate I cant even fit electrons without fitting mods. looks like you will not have tank or gank on this ship at the moment.

Ok I take it back it seems to fit out well on the shield side are you guys leaning towards a shield setup because that is what it looks like.

Stabber looks awesome though it is soo soo much faster than the other three may be kinda imbalanced.

With 1 Small Drone / 4 Guns and 1 Dmg Bonus?

I don't see it doing enough Dmg to break it down first, especially with a flight of the Ruptures Drones on it. Escape maybe but the Dmg it can project is a little low.

I would like to see it with a 25-30m3 Drone Bay like the Rupture, 5th Turret as well but mainly the bay.

The Stabber has 2 damage bonuses. The only question you should be asking is how far away it needs to be before the falloff bonus provides more DPS than the 25% damage bonus. IIRC it's not that far - something like 8-10km.

-Liang

That's exactly why I'm thinking that. It'll be better against smaller, and faster targets with the Light Assaults, even Fury Lights, it should get similar DPS after the damage nerf of Heavies, and the damage buff of lights, and the extra lows and easier fitting requirements will make it even better than a 5 HML fit, in my semi-theorycrafted opinion.

Of course, there's a chance that I'm just stupid and terribly wrong.

So if im right,ew cruisers and logi cruiser did get 13 slots,atack cruisers all have 14 slots,so if combat cruisers allso get 14 slot VEXOR IS GETING +2 SLOTS.AWSOM.
And his dps aplaying will not be afectid by NEW TDs that i do asume will be fitid on each ship...
Coments?

Ignor my crap english

I imagine it's to deter people from fitting nanos vs overdrives (think 'ranis) and also to give you some more EHP/time to cycle reps without buffing buffer tanks.

pretty sure thorax will have less shield and armor because it is now top tier but will be "only" an attack cruiser, i bet vexor will gain quite some more hp in armor and shield

it could make these guns completely obsolete.

Wow, that Throax is gonna be awesome. The 4th mid combined with the extra CPU is going to let me fit an actual tank to the damn thing. Fantastic!

-Liang

Quad Beams were stillborns.

You mean you can fit a shield tank on it. This is meant to be a armor tanked ship.

Fixed the OP

Were they missing from the list? If so, that's not what I was referring to. I meant to say that they have always been useless.

Any chance to change them to pulse lasers? Ideally, a tier of pulse lasers between heavy and focused.

On the frigate level, there are 3 tiers of pulse lasers and 2 tiers of beam lasers.

On the cruiser & battleship level, there are 2 tiers of pulse lasers and 3 tiers of beam lasers and basically nobody uses the low tier beam laser (Quad Beam and Dual Heavy Beam).

Were they missing from the list? If so, that's not what I was referring to. I meant to say that they have always been useless.

Any chance to change them to pulse lasers? Ideally, a tier of pulse lasers between heavy and focused.

On the frigate level, there are 3 tiers of pulse lasers and 2 tiers of beam lasers.

On the cruiser & battleship level, there are 2 tiers of pulse lasers and 3 tiers of beam lasers and basically nobody uses the low tier beam laser (Quad Beam and Dual Heavy Beam).

Aw but this is where your wrong my friend. Because of the massively less PWG & CPU that Quads use you can fit the ship with a lot of power amplifying module, effectively making the guns better in all ways than focused pulse. Also because of there crazy ROF as is, the bonus the ship gives amplifies it considerably. With the new changes this could be mitigated but I'm really looking forward to seeing how much tank i can squeeze on my omen with these changes.

+1 for me.

Just noticed the Thorax shield hp nerf even though it will only be used as a shield max dps fit mm... thought that through did you really? for a ship that cant hit far it might as-well be a combat cruiser in disguise a AB at close range is probably its best way of tanking now in a shield fit the others don't need the tank especially the stabber but the thorax will need some.

This is to help offset the extra LSE they gave you.

-Liang

it is dumb to need a fitting mod to fit the smallest guns

Fixed the OP

So with these being attack cruisers and with our lovable attack frigates getting a role bonus, could we possible give a role bonus to these ships in the form of the old thorax MWD cap pool reduction? Just a thought.

CCP YOU JUST MADE THE TENGU USELESS AND NOT ON PAR WITH THE REST OF ITS T3 COUNTERPARTS, "-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)" MISSILES ARELEADY HAD LOW DPS AS OF RIGHT KNOW DO YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME. BATPHONING CSM



Heavy Missiles

-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

Tech Two Missiles

-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, weGÇÖll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range, increase damage slightly

Stabber:
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5

changes look fine, my question is where is the kinetic damage type coming from caldari,

they don't seem to have a preferred damage type that the other races are generally locked to, isnt galente default ship resists tailored vs caldari kinetic?

is there any thought to giving galente the same-ish omni damage tank that amarr have as a defence vs minmatar damage variance type? the now more selective damage type the caldari hulls can utilise vs the explosive hole in the gal hulls,

i havent been back long into eve but i recall the kinetic missile damage bonus was to trade vs the resists you had the option of exploiting,

i have read the heavy missile changes and that may go some way to equalise the damage potentials but to my understanding that still leaves non Heavy missile ships a potent buff

again i havent been back for long and have forgotten/missed alot of the stuff that has been implemented over the last few years, so feel free to enlighten me,

cheers

Most of the Gallente pilots I've seen fill their Explosive gap, much like how the Caldari will fill their EM resist gap. It's fully likely that EM could end up being their weakest resist, as opposed to Explosive. Besides, I think it's only fair that we get actually selectable damage types, since people love throwing that around so much, rather than one damage type that can kind of match other races DPS, and three that are absolutely sub-par.

If people want to keep arguing that "missiles are selectable damage!" then I think it's good and proper that we can actually choose our damage type, as opposed to being forced into kinetic only, unless you want to throw away an entire ship bonus. In 3/4 situations, our ship bonuses can be wasted, and it takes a large resist gap to make up for that 25% damage, or more.

And the HAM Caracal is out run/damaged by the Bellicose (called it), the HM Caracal gets nerfed, and the LM Caracal gets a buff.

Nevermind how the HM nerf hurts ships besides the Drake that needed a buff.

Also, some people seem to have an odd preconception that the designation Attack Cruiser automatically means "Kite",... and just as many seem to think it automatically means they are all supposed to be a "close range brawler".

It means neither.

It simply means fast and hard hitting.

Obviously for some this means kiting is more effective, for others getting in quickly under their opponents guns and pummeling them. It all depends on the ship stats and how you prefer to fit/fly it.

I really dont see how your getting your numbers. They both get 4 low slots, same bonus, and the Caracal gets one more launcher. Also with the buff to HAMs the Caracal may use them more often because it gets a range bonus, where the Bellicose will have to make a choice.

If your saying that its the drones your wrong in thinking thats going to end up giving you more dps. Because we all know that people are going to fill that with ecm drones, or maybe some web drones so you can fit a painter on your shield boat.

The Caracal also has much more in the way of defenses.

As it is I think is fairly balanced. A full gank Bell could get more dps than a Caracal but in reality, for it to be a balanced ship it can't fulfill this dream. Min maxing on paper may sound like a way to win a argument but it can leave you bind to more realistic setups and probabilitys.

I really dont see how your getting your numbers. They both get 4 low slots, same bonus, and the Caracal gets one more launcher. Also with the buff to HAMs the Caracal may use them more often because it gets a range bonus, where the Bellicose will have to make a choice.

If your saying that its the drones your wrong in thinking thats going to end up giving you more dps. Because we all know that people are going to fill that with ecm drones, or maybe some web drones so you can fit a painter on your shield boat.

The Caracal also has much more in the way of defenses.

As it is I think is fairly balanced. A full gank Bell could get more dps than a Caracal but in reality, for it to be a balanced ship it can't fulfill this dream. Min maxing on paper may sound like a way to win a argument but it can leave you bind to more realistic setups and probabilitys.

How would you propose that we fly the new Omen? I suppose we could theoretically run XL ASB with a disruptor and FMP? The 3 mid slots and no optimal bonus is crippling when comparing the ship to the Thorax, Caracal, and even Stabber.

-Liang

How would you propose that we fly the new Omen? I suppose we could theoretically run XL ASB with a disruptor and FMP? The 3 mid slots and no optimal bonus is crippling when comparing the ship to the Thorax, Caracal, and even Stabber.

-Liang

Most of the Gallente pilots I've seen fill their Explosive gap, much like how the Caldari will fill their EM resist gap. It's fully likely that EM could end up being their weakest resist, as opposed to Explosive. Besides, I think it's only fair that we get actually selectable damage types, since people love throwing that around so much, rather than one damage type that can kind of match other races DPS, and three that are absolutely sub-par.

If people want to keep arguing that "missiles are selectable damage!" then I think it's good and proper that we can actually choose our damage type, as opposed to being forced into kinetic only, unless you want to throw away an entire ship bonus. In 3/4 situations, our ship bonuses can be wasted, and it takes a large resist gap to make up for that 25% damage, or more.

Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)

Yes, I've been scowling over that one. The 4 medium drones and the 6 lows provide a lot of potential damage and/or tank, but I'm having trouble fitting it into the Attack Cruiser category in my mind with the proposed bonuses.

Still thinking on it...

Edit: You know, if that first bonus read:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret and Medium Armor Repair capacitor use
That might have merit for reasonably fast dual rep setups, but that still makes it an odd bird for this category.

Yes, I've been scowling over that one. The 4 medium drones and the 6 lows provide a lot of potential damage and/or tank, but I'm having trouble fitting it into the Attack Cruiser category in my mind with the proposed bonuses.

Still thinking on it...

Edit: You know, if that first bonus read:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret and Medium Armor Repair capacitor use
That might have merit for reasonably fast dual rep setups, but that still makes it an odd bird for this category.