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Awox Advanced Logistics Cosa Nostra.	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:51:00 - [1] Is it another one of Zulupark's ideas? I don't know many people who even fit repairers on deimos, let alone medium ones. Of course the logic behind such fits is to kill or be killed, and if you are shooting you cannot have enough capacitor to repair anyways... Whoever it was, whatever they are smoking cannot be legal - not even in iceland. sales page ║ affordable hosting
Gran Masakari Advanced Logistics Cosa Nostra.	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:52:00 - [2] Edited by: Gran Masakari on 02/02/2008 03:53:13 As a Deimos pilot, I would just like to say one thing: /agree
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:57:00 - [3] Yeah, I've finished my training for a Deimos like a day ago, looks like I'll be buying an Ishtar though. I mean, it's better in every way.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:04:00 - [4] Awox you can now fit a sensor booster or two on your cloaked deimoses
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:06:00 - [5] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 02/02/2008 04:06:40 I can understand wanting to give it another Mid slot, but why take away a Low slot instead of the useless High slot (aka small nos)? Removing a low slot will just take away what little tank the deimos will have... Oh wait, They gave us that Tanking bonus to compensate I guess... Well, Good thing we have all that extra PG to gank with our neutrons as well as fit a MAR + Cap booster... ------------------------------------------------------------------
Winter Nuclear Blue.	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:07:00 - [6] The appearance of the sacred 4'th mid slot is a sign! I sign that we must all now passive shield tank our holy camouflaged phallic contraptions! The repairer bonus is merely a goon swatter, and a test for those of weaker soul! ---
Aries Acheron Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:15:00 - [7] The point of the repairer bonus is negated by the loss of a lowslot. If you take the largely useless 6th High, and made it a low.. the Deimos is then fine. 5/4/6 setup, hooray. It works fine, and isn't overpowered pwn. Survive Eve! Eve Tribune
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:33:00 - [8] I don't understand the need for the change. Unneeded and uncalled for changes like this make me wonder what CCP is doing, tbh. Oh well, back to blobbing now that one more 'fun to fly ship' is being turned killed. Sad. Originally by: Mangala Solaris EVE really doesnt have set goals, its a freeform sandbox - yes a sandbox with kids that occasionally take a dump in it, but a sandbox never the less.
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Awox Is it another one of Zulupark's ideas? I don't know many people who even fit repairers on deimos, let alone medium ones. Of course the logic behind such fits is to kill or be killed, and if you are shooting you cannot have enough capacitor to repair anyways... Whoever it was, whatever they are smoking cannot be legal - not even in iceland. What? No rep on a Deimos? Are you kidding? Btw, you can perma run your repper, and guns on a Deimos. You can even perma run the MWD and repper. Train up your Engineering skills.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:52:00 - [10] Originally by: CherniyVolk Originally by: Awox Is it another one of Zulupark's ideas? I don't know many people who even fit repairers on deimos, let alone medium ones. Of course the logic behind such fits is to kill or be killed, and if you are shooting you cannot have enough capacitor to repair anyways... Whoever it was, whatever they are smoking cannot be legal - not even in iceland. What? No rep on a Deimos? Are you kidding? Btw, you can perma run your repper, and guns on a Deimos. You can even perma run the MWD and repper. Train up your Engineering skills. ever fitted a gank deimos (wich is the only viable fitting for the ship)? in that fitting, you need to slap an ACR to fit the repper that you will only use for a cycle or to repair between fights. tbh slapping trimarks and a SAR is better for the purpose of the ship --- planetary interaction idea!
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:53:00 - [11] The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Xequecal The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente. no I don't. I still have less cap than I have now (1719) --- planetary interaction idea!
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Xequecal The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente. no I don't. I still have less cap than I have now (1719) BASE capacitor. That's BEFORE Engineering. The Deimos' current base cap is 1375. God damn.
Zana Kito	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:08:00 - [14] 5/4/6 layout please CCP. Useless high slots is bad now, i hope you guys realize this. Neuts are meh on gank ships.. and NOS.. ugh.
Byzan Zwyth Dark Centuri Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:35:00 - [15] awesome I'm sure CCP changed it because of all the people who QQ because they dont have room for an injector Sig removed. Lacks EVE related content. For more information feel free to contact [email protected]. ~Saint
Suga H Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:58:00 - [16] This Deimos change will actually get me to buy one. Screw off you fools screaming "WHY U DO DAT ZULU". It seems like a decent change. Might be a total of 5% cap hit with the MWD on, but it's a bonus to cap without MWD and now reppers are decent on the ship. Sure, PG is still rough, but oh well, you'll deal with it.
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.02 08:03:00 - [17] Edited by: Spenz on 02/02/2008 08:04:54 Edited by: Spenz on 02/02/2008 08:03:53 Cap bonus: Good Add a mid slot: Good Lose a low slot and add a rep bonus to compensate: Very very BAD. Now lets look at the facts. Where are you going to fish out the powergrid to fit good guns, a medium repper, AND a medium cap booster? It barely fits neutrons, a mwd, and a small armor repper as is (with a proper plate setup since resist-tanking a deimos is just not viable). I won't even mention a gank setup since that completely nullifies that second 'bonus'. Do they really want to make it so that rigs are REQUIRED to actually use the ship to a moderate extent (medium repper, medium cap booster, mwd, and ions)? Not only that, but giving it a tanking bonus, then REMOVING a large portion of its tank is not only counter-productive, it's just stupid. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Darius Avalon Red.	Posted - 2008.02.02 08:26:00 - [18] Edited by: Darius Avalon on 02/02/2008 08:26:39 Originally by: Arkios Odymei Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 02/02/2008 04:06:40 I can understand wanting to give it another Mid slot, but why take away a Low slot instead of the useless High slot (aka small nos)? Originally by: Aries Acheron If you take the largely useless 6th High, and made it a low.. the Deimos is then fine. 5/4/6 setup, hooray. It works fine, and isn't overpowered pwn. Originally by: Zana Kito 5/4/6 layout please CCP. ^ note this
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2008.02.02 08:42:00 - [19] don't touch the deimos pls. this change as well as the removal of the mwd bonus is really, really, really unwanted and unneeded!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:43:00 - [20] Less cap, less low slots... nice improvement. That will really boost its defenses. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Xequecal The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente. no I don't. I still have less cap than I have now (1719) BASE capacitor. That's BEFORE Engineering. The Deimos' current base cap is 1375. God damn. then: 1375 cap and no penalty from the mwd = 1375 cap. now: 1625 cap and 25% reduction from mwd = 1218.75 cap. Math, it's amazing. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Riho Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:58:00 - [22] after this change... i will never fly a deimos. i loved the glass cannon thing in it (allmost 0 tank and full gank) i never use the last utility slot.. as nothing fits. now mwd bonus is gone (i think.. only played whit zealot last night in test)and you get a useless rep bonus that will never be used in pvp. why you ask ? whit no mwd bonus.. your cap will be empty by the time you are shooting someone.. if you fit neutrons and a inj... you cant fit a rep. now im going to train amarr on this char allso and use only gank zealots. as in 5hp t2 whit 3x hs = <3 (if i can get it to fit :P) it seems Zulupark messed up again whit a change (atleast some of them where avoided by him talking about them in a blog). i hope he reconciders this change and turns it back. glass cannon coulndt have been overpowerd. if you fit lots of damage.. you didnt have any tank... how is this not fair ---------------------------------- This is Me
Breed Love FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:58:00 - [23] People need to get a clue, deimos is much better with the changes. ----- Originally by: Zhulik I thought Premium graphics were supposed to fix that bug where people were trying to salvage Minmatar ships.
Riho Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:02:00 - [24] Edited by: Riho on 02/02/2008 10:01:53 Originally by: Breed Love People need to get a clue, deimos is much better with the changes. as a nano ***** ship yes Quote:** As the damage output is already the highest of all the HACs, we looked into boosting its defenses so it had a fighting chance and this is from devblog funny... lest rise defence.... removed a low slot :P ---------------------------------- This is Me
Breed Love FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Riho as a nano ***** ship yes Not necessarily. You just need to use the grey matter you are supposed to have somewhere between your forehead and your neck. Deimos is a much better ship with the changes, period. ----- Originally by:** Zhulik I thought Premium graphics were supposed to fix that bug where people were trying to salvage Minmatar ships.
El Torrent Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:07:00 - [26] Interesting. Nerfing damage potential of a gank HAC. I guess I will stop flying it, then. --
Pord Caldari Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:43:00 - [27] I agree with getting rid of the high slot insead of the low..... why give tank bonous and then remove a low? Also te whole point of the ship is gank so why even take the MWD bonous away and give it the rep amount? Ok u can survive more but ur gonna loose on dps which is the whole point of the deimos. Also as stated by some1 above..... u try to fit all the blasters, cap injector, mwd and a medium repper!!! MIGHT fit with electrons but then that means the DPS sufferes alot!
Solomon XI Caldari Dawn of Chaos	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:53:00 - [28] 5H/4M/6L +New Changes /signed. That extra high slot is useless. Please CCP, we love our 6 lows. Don't do it! -Solo
Lady Antares Yumpalistic Industrial	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:02:00 - [29] This is quite possibly the worst change ever
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Grimpak on 02/02/2008 11:05:45 Originally by: Breed Love People need to get a clue, deimos is much better with the changes. so wait, atm we have a deimos that trades any sort of tank to be able to be in gank mode, wich is fine imho. you slap neutrons and 3 mag stabs and you're only left with 3 lows for for a buffer tank, but in return you get 525dps out of the turrets ALONE, and enough grid to slap a SAR. hey fine by me. the SAR is there to rep between fights anyway. now with the low slot removed, you lose tank, you cannot fit gank setups since the MAR and the injector are there, and to make use of the bonuses in full you need to fit at least a 800mm plate, wich leaves you still with a useless 6th high slot, and downgrade from neutrons to ELECTRONS, just to be able to fit the ship AND ability to survive inside web range now that you don't have your DPS as tank. if this is a boost to the solo efficiency of the deimos, then was the role of DPS machine in gangs not enough? --- planetary interaction idea!
giddymochug Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:06:00 - [31] i fart in the general direction of gallente space.
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Breed Love Originally by: Riho as a nano ******* ship yes Not necessarily. You just need to use the grey matter you are supposed to have somewhere between your forehead and your neck. Deimos is a much better ship with the changes, period. Ok you tell me what the deimos will do after these changes that will make it worth flying, it wont tank that good still, it wont deal much much dmg, please point out the adavantage it will now have.
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Breed Love People need to get a clue, deimos is much better with the changes. how?
Ebodhisatva hunter killers La Famila	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:22:00 - [34] My second experience on sisi: 5 heavy ion blaster t2, 1 med nos 1 mwd, 2 cap rechargers t2, 1 scrambler 1 med repper t2, 2 hardener t2, 2 mag stabs t2 2 cap control circuits t1 5 hammers t2 If nos is on, it's cap stable with mwd, repper and guns active...
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei Phoenix Allianz	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:23:00 - [35] Does the Thorax also get its MWD Bonus replaced?
MortyM Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:26:00 - [36] These changes do not make any sense at all. To give it more defense you remove a low slot and add a med slot.. ? ...you do know its an armor tank right? The med slot is supposed to make it able to fit a cap recharger.. but then you completely *****it's cap by removing the mwd bonus.. I just doesn't make any sense at all... Unless ofcourse you consider balancing the process of makeing all ships the same. Well then you are succeeding in makeing the game a lot more boring.
Amanda Shadowsword Caldari Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:30:00 - [37] Originally by: CherniyVolk Originally by: Awox Is it another one of Zulupark's ideas? I don't know many people who even fit repairers on deimos, let alone medium ones. Of course the logic behind such fits is to kill or be killed, and if you are shooting you cannot have enough capacitor to repair anyways... Whoever it was, whatever they are smoking cannot be legal - not even in iceland. What? No rep on a Deimos? Are you kidding? Btw, you can perma run your repper, and guns on a Deimos. You can even perma run the MWD and repper. Train up your Engineering skills. That means ****all when everyone and they're mother fits neuts. ================================= [orange]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Wachtmeister
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:38:00 - [38] Edited by: Hannobaal on 02/02/2008 11:43:15 Edited by: Hannobaal on 02/02/2008 11:40:48 What I was using on test today (I don't have tech 2 medium guns trained up ): 5 x best named ion blasters, 1 x best named medium nos 1 x tech 2 10mn mwd, 1 x tech 2 scrambler, 1 x tech 2 web, 1 x tech 2 cap recharger (no powergrid for a cap booster) 1 x tech 2 MAR, 1 x tech 2 reactive nano plating, 2 x tech 2 adaptive nano plating, 1 x tech 2 damage control 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump rigs 5 x Hammerhead II drones I killed another Deimos, which was using 2 repairers and a cap booster (and tech 2 guns), after a long fight.
oniplE Blue.	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:47:00 - [39] lol, how about a gank shield-buffer-tanked nano deimos? (for gangs) High: Heavy ion blaster II * 3 Heavy neutron blaster 2 Med: 10mn MWD II Large shield extender II 2 Invul field II. Low: Magnetic field stab II * 2 Overdrive injector II * 2 Damage control II Rigs: anti-em screen core field extender. Hammerheads II * 5 It has speed, it has damage, it has over 9k shield. Obviously you can still switch around some mods/rigs for even more gank. x
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:47:00 - [40] I dunno what I am paying these CCP dudes for, making changes to a ship that nobody ever complained about. Deimos is fine as it is. U wanna change ship specs, do something about assult frigs and gal recons, which are pieces of useless crap as they are.
Breed Love FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:15:00 - [41] Tbh people need to start thinking harder and also considering using rigs on their ships. And as I said, deimos is right now a subpar solo ship and ok-ish damage dealer in a small gang(not more than 10 people, otherwise targets usually die before you even get in range). It will be outclassed in its gang role by the 5 turret zealot when those changes are live, and the only thing left it can hope to do well (and what hi-dps blaster ships should do well) is solo roaming. However the whole "oh, my dps is teh ub4r but if zis guy has a neut im gona blow up lol" doesn't really make it a good solo ship. Having an extra mid slot for a cap injector changes this. ----- Originally by: Zhulik I thought Premium graphics were supposed to fix that bug where people were trying to salvage Minmatar ships.
Cornette Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:18:00 - [42] I agree with the other posters in this thread: THERE WAS NO NEED TO CHANGE THE DEIMOS!!! CCP LAY OFF THE *****-PIPE FFS Why do you have to thinker with everything when its not broken? Why is listening to your customers that hard? The Deimos was fine as it was. So now it will be a cruiser-sized brutix with tanking problem whoopidoo You could have moved that useless utility slot to the mid instead or given the Deimos extra cpu to fit a medium sized nos/neut or something even remotely useful in that last slot but no Or did I miss the memo that it is Gallentes turn to get nerfed this year?
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:20:00 - [43] Originally by: Breed Love Tbh people need to start thinking harder and also considering using rigs on their ships. And as I said, deimos is right now a subpar solo ship and ok-ish damage dealer in a small gang(not more than 10 people, otherwise targets usually die before you even get in range). It will be outclassed in its gang role by the 5 turret zealot when those changes are live, and the only thing left it can hope to do well (and what hi-dps blaster ships should do well) is solo roaming. However the whole "oh, my dps is teh ub4r but if zis guy has a neut im gona blow up lol" doesn't really make it a good solo ship. Having an extra mid slot for a cap injector changes this. usage of rigs in a ship should never be a balancing factor to make them "good". also, most people that I know that fly deimos will tell you that the deimos is not a solo ship. "balls to the wall" fighting style with no tank at all works great when you're the main damage dealer of a HAC gang, and that's where the deimos always shined. want to change the deimos? sure, swap that useless high slot for a med, and leave the rest alone. --- planetary interaction idea!
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Breed Love Tbh people need to start thinking harder and also considering using rigs on their ships. Rigs should never be needed to make a ship do its intended role, rigs should only be there to make it do its roles better
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:39:00 - [45] What the **** is this change about? Deimos always had troubles fitting guns+mwd+rep before, that is why it was used as a high gank, low tank ship. Now, it has 1625 capasitor capacity with MWD, (1625*0,75=) 1218. Before it had 1375 with or without MWD. This means it has less effective capasitor than before! The deimos had problems with fittings before, and needed one PG rig to fit guns+ light tank. With this new change you have one low slot less, meaning either significant loss of dps or a two slot tank. With the new rep bonus the ship needs to fit reps to take any advantage of the new bonus it needs to have similiar increases in PG and CPU. 173 in PG and 30 in CPU to be precise. This leads to possibilities of very broken setups, and in general it would be a lot easier just to move the utility high slot to a med slot or leave the ship as it is. Those who have trained it, have done so because of it's unique role, not because they want a solopwnmobile. Please, we the playerbase beg you. If it aint broken, don't fix it. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Zana Kito 5/4/6 layout please CCP. Useless high slots is bad now, i hope you guys realize this. Neuts are meh on gank ships.. and NOS.. ugh. Tbh, if the ship had enough fitting to fit a medium neut in that slot in addition to the normal gank setup, it would be good. But at the moment it is too fitting limited to ever use that slot for anything but micro, small and civiliam modules. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:48:00 - [47] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Zana Kito 5/4/6 layout please CCP. Useless high slots is bad now, i hope you guys realize this. Neuts are meh on gank ships.. and NOS.. ugh. Tbh, if the ship had enough fitting to fit a medium neut in that slot in addition to the normal gank setup, it would be good. But at the moment it is too fitting limited to ever use that slot for anything but micro, small and civiliam modules. well, with a 5/4/6 setup, if I downgrade from T2 webs to X5's, I can slap 2 of them and keep the rest of the setup intact (neutrons, mwd, warp jammer, 3 MFS, SAR, expl hard and DCU) --- planetary interaction idea!
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:53:00 - [48] hahahahha deimos is so joke now ..
Lews Stark COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:56:00 - [49] Why fix a ship that worked correctly? It has been useful for three months only, and they're breaking it again.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.02 12:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Grimpak well, with a 5/4/6 setup, if I downgrade from T2 webs to X5's, I can slap 2 of them and keep the rest of the setup intact (neutrons, mwd, warp jammer, 3 MFS, SAR, expl hard and DCU) Yea, a fourth mid is useful. Never said it wasn't. But, that high slot could be very useful if you had enough fittings to fit a neut in it. These days carriers are more than common and taking them down is a lot easier in a roaming gang if you have enough nos/neut to kill it's capacitor recharge and stop it from tanking. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:02:00 - [51] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Grimpak well, with a 5/4/6 setup, if I downgrade from T2 webs to X5's, I can slap 2 of them and keep the rest of the setup intact (neutrons, mwd, warp jammer, 3 MFS, SAR, expl hard and DCU) Yea, a fourth mid is useful. Never said it wasn't. But, that high slot could be very useful if you had enough fittings to fit a neut in it. These days carriers are more than common and taking them down is a lot easier in a roaming gang if you have enough nos/neut to kill it's capacitor recharge and stop it from tanking. true there, but running a neut and guns in a deimos, even considering today's stats is impossible without an injector. and you only have space to some 5 or 6 800 charges if you want to pack ammo in there. --- planetary interaction idea!
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:05:00 - [52] Edited by: Laboratus on 02/02/2008 13:05:13 In my experience my forum warrioring has lead to me being primaried quite often and as such I've never run out of boosters or ammo, so I've never seen that as a problem. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/02/2008 13:05:53 In my experience I'm being primaried quite often (could be due to my forum warrioring) and as such I've never run out of boosters or ammo, so I've never seen that as a problem. but in running that neutralizer you need them --- planetary interaction idea!
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:09:00 - [54] We want: 5/4/6 layout. Change that silly rep bonus to a +10% (or +7.5%) to armor hitpoints per level. Thanx
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Rastigan on 02/02/2008 13:29:54 Im Meh with the changes,if they happen, I'll just double LSEII it and fly it like a nano-HAC.... and to be honest I've never had a Deimos last long enough (its either win or lose in 30seconds) for a repper to matter... The Deimos is sure going to make a nice mission runner now though with the repper bonus and the extra cap... The way the Deimos is set up on Sisi, why not just buy a Brutix for 20mil and call it a day...
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:33:00 - [56] Originally by: Rastigan The Deimos is sure going to make a nice mission runner now though with the repper bonus and the extra cap... I have yet so see a blaster setup that actually performs in missions. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
PeveS The Edge Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:38:00 - [57] Edited by: PeveS on 02/02/2008 13:39:06 Edited by: PeveS on 02/02/2008 13:38:40 Originally by: ElCoCo We want: 5/4/6 layout. Change that silly rep bonus to a +10% (or +7.5%) to armor hitpoints per level. Thanx Deimos will be to overpowered. Leave it like it is now. tweak it just a little bit and its fine. >>One of the main problems of actively repaired Deimos setups is the high energy requirement You can run a blasters, mwd, and meditation repper forever with maxed engineering skills and right rigs >>Slots: 6/4/5 (+1 med, -1 low) You loose or damage or a resistance. Other hacs will slice into your armor like butter if you dont kill them fast enough. >>Capacitor capacity: 1625.0en (+250en) This is a good change. >>7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Gallente Cruiser level (replaces the MWD capacitor penalty reduction) Its a better bonus then a mwd bonus. If you opponent is webbed you dont need mwd on full force anyway. Conclusion, Deimos needs 6 low slots. Repper, 2 or 3 dam mods and some resistance mods. If you bring it back to 5, deimos will suck for its attanded gank role. You have a ishtar to tank. Deimos is damage. However, i think the deimos will be overpowered if its getting (5/4/6).
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:42:00 - [58] Originally by: PeveS >>7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Gallente Cruiser level (replaces the MWD capacitor penalty reduction) Its a better bonus then a mwd bonus. If you opponent is webbed you dont need mwd on full force anyway. Excuse me? The old Deimos bonus removes the capacitor penalty for fitting an mwd. It still uses the same amount of cap to actually run, which (with the new stats) it will have less of. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:43:00 - [59] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Rastigan The Deimos is sure going to make a nice mission runner now though with the repper bonus and the extra cap... I have yet so see a blaster setup that actually performs in missions. Neither have I, you can use railguns though..
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:47:00 - [60] Edited by: Ogul on 02/02/2008 13:47:44 Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Ogul I have yet so see a blaster setup that actually performs in missions. Neither have I, you can use railguns though.. Without bothering to actually try to fit that I would still claim that the Deimos probably sucks badly as a railgun mission platform, especially if compared to (cheaper) ships like the Dominix or the Megathron. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:13:00 - [61] Edited by: Spenz on 02/02/2008 14:14:48 wow.... I forgot about the mwd thing. So the new "improved" deimos actually gets LESS cap. So it gets less cap, less damage, less tank, but gets a bonus to ARMOR REPPING (wow like deimos' were rep-tanked all the time yeah) and an extra midslot (which is great.....if you can actually find a way of fitting a decent repair setup without using rigs). Everyone can tell you what will improve the deimos: -1 High +1 Mid That's it. You don't have to go re-inventing the wheel all the time (like you are doing now). Sure you will still be strapped for grid, but at least with a 4th mid you would have a realistic way of combating the deimos' cap anemia problem. This new deimos though is just a joke and a mistake. Somehow though I have a bad feeling that ccp just doesn't care. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Lumberjackhammer Caldari Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:00:00 - [62] As always, note that these changes are subject to change based on further testing. We will be keeping a close eye on the Deimos in particular. keep the whine up and they wont change it :)
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:02:00 - [63] Originally by: Lumberjackhammer keep the whine up and they wont change it :) working as hard as i can
Herz Ing	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:03:00 - [64] Edited by: Herz Ing on 02/02/2008 16:03:21 Originally by: Aries Acheron The point of the repairer bonus is negated by the loss of a lowslot. If you take the largely useless 6th High, and made it a low.. the Deimos is then fine. 5/4/6 setup, hooray. It works fine, and isn't overpowered pwn. 5/4/6 SIGNED SIGNED SIGNED SIGNED x100000000000000 And give back the MWD bonus, please! It's what makes the Deimos the Deimos.
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:14:00 - [65] I have to agree that the loss of a lowslot and the change from an MWD bonus to a repair bonus is more than counter productive. If an additional midslot is needed (and I'm not certain it is) to enable a cap booster to be fitted then if that is what will balance the ship that's fine. But there are two things to consider if that is the aim, (1) The booster will take additional PG and CPU, if it's not competing now then how is it going to compete with the additional fittings hog? (2) If it is concluded that additional slots are a necessity then why not do a Minmatar Battlecruiser to fill that need? If it is not necessary then look at the alternative methods of increasing its ability to tank without reducing its damage...etc. The obvious route is to remove the utility Highslot, but I suspect that this is actually a means to discourage the use of plates, make resists more effective and therefore force more significant resist holes. Conclusion: If the Deimos is not competitive against other short range HACs (primarily due to the drive to make combats last longer) then make it competitive, this does not include reducing its tank by removing a low, reducing its damage potential and its tank by reducing its effective capacitor and then trying to compensate for these losses by giving it an active repair bonus and a midslot for capacitor. If the Deimos is uncompetitive against the Sacrilege then boost it by all means, if it's uncompetitive against the new Zealot then consider what changes it was which made it that way... even better, allow the dust to settle with regard to the Amarr changes before reevaluating the situation, perhaps the best method is to increase its dronebay somewhat (without increasing the bandwidth) to allow it to load ECM drones and Damage drones but it certainly isn't to take away from its tank twice and force it to fit particular modules in order to compensate for thge loss. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Jolinar Malkshur Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:18:00 - [66] Can you please leave my ships alone ccp just go boost your amarr and caldari and please leave gallente alone for the love of God your not helping the situation. I like how my diemos is designed for one thing and one thing only kill kill kill leave the multi tasking for the ishtar. P.S. Mimitar need some love'n go bother them "Some one ever tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back" - Malcolm Reynolds
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Spenz Everyone can tell you what will improve the deimos: -1 High +1 Mid That's it. You don't have to go re-inventing the wheel all the time (like you are doing now). Sure you will still be strapped for grid, but at least with a 4th mid you would have a realistic way of combating the deimos' cap anemia problem. This new deimos though is just a joke and a mistake. /signed The Deimos was one of the few ships in the game that had a very clearly defined role, was very good at it, and managed to remain not overpowerd at the same time. And this is coming from someone who's been ganked by a few. They're blaster boats, plain and simple. They do damage at point blank range, they don't worry about tank. This change will make them far less useful. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Lottie Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.02 16:50:00 - [68] Originally by: Lady Antares This is quite possibly the worst change ever Agreed
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:30:00 - [69] Holy crap, Zulu, don't do this please. The deimos is fine as it is. I never have cap issues. I can run the MWD permanently or guns and MAR, a cap booster is totally not needed. Adding a mid for a low slot will only sacrifice valuable lowslots for a questionable "improvement". The deimos needs all its current lowslots to perform its only viable role: 3x MagStabs, 1x expl Hardener to stuff the Resist hole, DCU to prolong the ineviteable, 1x MAR: Heavy Assault Gang Gank Machine. This is why most people love this ship and fly it. We accepted that it is a one trick pony, but for this we also love it dearly ;P If you want to add a midslot, take it from the highs, alltho I agree that it might be overpowered then. But before you take a low slot away best don't change it at all. The armor repair bonus can't compensate the loss of resist, or you would have to sacrifice DPS, the sole purpose of this ship! Go ask the Director and Designers of Duvolle Labs. The Deimos is fine as it is. It doesn't need this change. I would hate to see this ship ruined, i love it as it is. ---
Krikin The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:44:00 - [70] Edited by: Krikin on 02/02/2008 17:44:51 imo I prefer having a armor rep bonus and a boost to cap over a plain mwd bonus xD. even slapping in a small repper has a decent repping power, specially with rigs. they just need to rethink their removal of the low slot to add to the middle slot instead of removing the high slot(zealot in sisi has no free high slots once the 5 turrets are in place), and/or give it more power grid. _____________________________________________ \\o \o/ o//
Sgt Napalm Synergy Fundacion	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:45:00 - [71] In case you all haven't realized it by now Zulu & the crew is systematically destroying the blaster line up of Galentte ships. Just another nail in the ol coffin.
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:31:00 - [72] Originally by: Krikin "As always, note that these changes are subject to change based on further testing. We will be keeping a close eye on the Deimos in particular." chill mates (for now ^_^) Better to speak up now than when its too late. ---
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:39:00 - [73] There weren't any whines getting posted on these forums about the deimos, what reason could ccp possibly have to go and do this to the Deimos? I was about to go buy one, but unless these changes get reversed, I doubt I'll do that now. If it needs a tweak, then yes, 5/4/6 is the way to go. The Deimos is losing everything that made it an interesting ship to me, because with these changes they are forcing us into a tank fit on what was supposed to be a gank ship. Killing is business and business is good.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:40:00 - [74] WTF CCP? WTF?! == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Dingus Rx Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:22:00 - [75] signed - worst change ever CCP, stop killing role specialties.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:26:00 - [76] Just.... WTF? I don't even fly Gallente (I prefer Minmatar), but this is no way to kill a already sub-par ship. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Zephyr Rengate Racketeers	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:37:00 - [77] This change seems really strange since i have not read ONE boost/nerf Deimos thread for ages. Currently it does what its meant to do with ease : Rush in with MWD and ***your target. If i wanted a high damage blaster ship with a repper bonus i would be flying a brutix, or hyperion not a deimos. I hope CCP adjust the change to remove 1 high and put that as the new med, not ***** about with the vital lows. I've not checked but can a Deimos run 5 Neutrons, med repper and injector without having to use 2 PG rigs? If it does need 2 PG rigs to do what its designed for then it clearly needs a PG increase. And it does not have much cargo bay to even hold that many booster charges.
Javeoon	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:46:00 - [78] while most everyone here flames about how much the hate the change (whilst 90% of you don't even fly a Deimos) I would just like to point out that the change is actually good. My old setup: x5 Ion IIs x1 Small Nos MWD,Scram,MCB (medium cap booster) MARII,explosive hardner,eanm,dmg cntrl,x2 Magstabs New Setup: x5 Ions IIs x1 Small Nos MWD,Scram,web,mcb marII,explosive,eanm,x2 Magstabs Same DPS and now with the rep bonus the tank is roughly the same. Get over it. Granted I would rather drop the small nos for a med slot, but it is still a good change.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:51:00 - [79] Well, I guess you could fit a injector and a four/five slot dual-rep tank + electrons and do absolutely nothing with its 6th highslot. I see nothing else that would make sense on the Deimos, and then you might as well use the Brutix, really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 21:03:00 - [80] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate I've not checked but can a Deimos run 5 Neutrons, med repper and injector without having to use 2 PG rigs? If it does need 2 PG rigs to do what its designed for then it clearly needs a PG increase. it doesn't, but then again, fitting a MAR there to rep armor while in battle is a waste of cap. buffer HP setups work better in the deimos roles, since you just have to outlast and outdamage your enemy, and not outtank him. --- planetary interaction idea!
XrayZ Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 22:14:00 - [81] aww maaan... as someone said... stop killing specced ppl (or whatever) this sucks big time. as a deimos pilot i dont aprove of this, unless its teh 5/4/6 layout. (reasons mentioned above from other players) and the mwd ship bonus is there for a reason. DONT TAKE THE MWD BONUS AWAY!!!! and screw the repper bonus, if u get ganked or are primary, wont matter how much rep bonus u have, ur still toast. the deimos is good as it is atm... dont change it or you¦ll make baby jesus cry among other things. its not overpowered, no whines about it whatsoever. u ppl at CCP just like to mess with ppls heads or just **** us off? o7 --------------------------------------
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.02 22:27:00 - [82] If you really wanna change the deimos, high for med please.... just leave those lows alone...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.02 22:34:00 - [83] Originally by: Amanda Shadowsword Originally by: CherniyVolk Originally by: Awox Is it another one of Zulupark's ideas? I don't know many people who even fit repairers on deimos, let alone medium ones. Of course the logic behind such fits is to kill or be killed, and if you are shooting you cannot have enough capacitor to repair anyways... Whoever it was, whatever they are smoking cannot be legal - not even in iceland. What? No rep on a Deimos? Are you kidding? Btw, you can perma run your repper, and guns on a Deimos. You can even perma run the MWD and repper. Train up your Engineering skills. That means ****all when everyone and they're mother fits neuts. Just as well you have a mid for an injector then. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.02 22:40:00 - [84] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Amanda Shadowsword Originally by: CherniyVolk Originally by: Awox Is it another one of Zulupark's ideas? I don't know many people who even fit repairers on deimos, let alone medium ones. Of course the logic behind such fits is to kill or be killed, and if you are shooting you cannot have enough capacitor to repair anyways... Whoever it was, whatever they are smoking cannot be legal - not even in iceland. What? No rep on a Deimos? Are you kidding? Btw, you can perma run your repper, and guns on a Deimos. You can even perma run the MWD and repper. Train up your Engineering skills. That means ****all when everyone and they're mother fits neuts. Just as well you have a mid for an injector then. wich will get out of charges in... 4 burns? --- planetary interaction idea!
V0idz Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2008.02.02 23:01:00 - [85] April Fool's Day? a bit too early ccp... _____________________________________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.03 01:47:00 - [86] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: James Lyrus Just as well you have a mid for an injector then. wich will get out of charges in... 4 burns? Well, given you are going to be stuck with using electrons from now on anyway, you might as well drop the falloff bonus and give it a 20%/level cargo capacity bonus Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2008.02.03 04:55:00 - [87] tbh i fail to see why it needs another mid (1 less high or low doesn't matter) cause as it stands the deimos hasn't enough pg to squeeze in a cap booster if we're talking about the cookie cutter blaster setup.
FamersUsedTo BeatUs	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:34:00 - [88] As it stands with the new changes, a beagle will do better dps then a damn Deimos.... no powergrid, removing a lowslot..... crappy repping bonus for the unique MWD bonus we all loved..... CCP is just trying to make us get ****ed off at things other then lagg at this point. -1 highslot +1 midslot + a pinch of cpu/grid to make it work. /signed
LOwRANCE Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:42:00 - [89] Is that the describtion ?! of the dymos ? I hope everybody can read aan understand it ! Hull: Thorax Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship Sharing more tactical elements with smaller vessels than with its size-class counterparts, the Deimos represents the final word in up-close-and-personal cruiser combat. Venture too close to this one, and swift death is your only guarantee. Developer: Duvolle Labs Rumor has it Duvolle was contracted by parties unknown to create the ultimate close-range blaster cruiser. In this their engineers and designers haven't failed; but the identity of the company's client remains to be discovered. 5/4/6 preferred !! with the emp resist changes its to bad to get a slight tank on it ! No good idea !
rotweiler Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.02.03 06:56:00 - [90] These changes prove at 100% that Zulupark and his team are seriously lacking EVE experience. Honestly getting hired in a company for a product change job , you MUST know the said product inside out. PROVE me wrong zulu, but you made a fool of yourself unfortunately, and even worse EVE players that read the forums have already lost confidence on your work ability. You called the DEIMOS changes a boost. I call them proof of incompetence. nough said
Surreptitious Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:29:00 - [91] Sooooo,,,, now we have two Phobos in the game? Well thought out Zulu. Syrup
Espejo Roto The Azimuth	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:40:00 - [92] "we looked into boosting its defenses so it had a fighting chance." (about the deimos) I originally posted this in another thread, but I may as well post it here, too. The only thing that I read when I saw the devblog was "To make you tougher, we are going to take away a tankslot." Don't get me wrong, I do see the good in the changes, but there are the other issues: - To keep the best dps, you need an ancillary current router instead of an rcu (tiny cost difference there) - The slot was added specifically for a capacitor booster, but the pg remains insufficient to support a medium without severely dropping the damage output, or adding a second ancillary and kissing off all rig flexibility. - The mwd bonus loss is still LESS cap after the cap modification, but that is okay as long as you have boosters, I know, but... - How many boosters are you going to carry in a cargo of 315 - ammo space? I may be viewing this wrong, but to me, This is how I see the change. The deimos will survive better than it does now, until you chew through your short supply of boosters. At that point, you are flying the same ship as before, but with about 60m worth of rigs to fuel the blue flash. Otherwise, you could just get in a phobos if all you're going to fit is ions anyway, and have a better tank. At least you could have rig options on the phobos. Don't be too harsh on this noob's evaluation. I do fly my deimos as a mixed dps/tackler, so I do try to tank a little bit. The change is just rubbish, though. I like her how she is, but I wouldn't complain at all for the 5/4/6. Hell, just leave it alone. It works, and I don't know anyone complaining about her as she is now. -roto
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:54:00 - [93] dont whine, the deimos is fine. if you like a 6th low slot then give the sac a 6th too and atleast 25m¦ dronebay/bandwith, maybe then we can talk about it
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.03 08:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic dont whine, the deimos is fine. if you like a 6th low slot then give the sac a 6th too and atleast 25m¦ dronebay/bandwith, maybe then we can talk about it Maybe the Sac deserves a tanking boost too, just like the Deimos... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Grapez Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2008.02.03 08:28:00 - [95] Man, I come back to Eve after a break to find this?
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.02.03 10:52:00 - [96] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 03/02/2008 10:52:06 Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Cpt Cosmic dont whine, the deimos is fine. if you like a 6th low slot then give the sac a 6th too and atleast 25m¦ dronebay/bandwith, maybe then we can talk about it Maybe the Sac deserves a tanking boost too, just like the Deimos... the sac already has a tanking bonus XD (or 2 if you count the cap bonus)
Plave Okice Gallente Red.	Posted - 2008.02.03 11:38:00 - [97] If they really want to help its survivability give it 5% armour per level or something, hell, 2.5%, just not a bloody rep bonus. I thought it was fine as it was, yeah I'd rather the 4th mid added and a high dropped, but that's no big deal. Red CEORed Vs Blue
Varshyll	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:15:00 - [98] Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:20:00 - [99] Originally by: Varshyll Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa. Demious is great with the change. Stop playing eve 2006 fitouts. Its 2008 and game balance has changed a lot and deimos would be obsolete without the change. Keep the utility slot for deimos as it is required. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:23:00 - [100] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Varshyll Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa. Demious is great with the change. Stop playing eve 2006 fitouts. Its 2008 and game balance has changed a lot and deimos would be obsolete without the change. Keep the utility slot for deimos as it is required. stick to your amarr whinning plz and tbh we blame u for this deimos changes transformers!! do u see them ?
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:27:00 - [101] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Varshyll Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa. Demious is great with the change. Stop playing eve 2006 fitouts. Its 2008 and game balance has changed a lot and deimos would be obsolete without the change. Keep the utility slot for deimos as it is required. stick to your amarr whinning plz and tbh we blame u for this deimos changes Please tell me how different your current Deimos is from one oyu fitted out in 2006? Point noted. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:32:00 - [102] Edited by: Grimpak on 03/02/2008 12:32:23 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: wierchas noobhunter Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Varshyll Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa. Demious is great with the change. Stop playing eve 2006 fitouts. Its 2008 and game balance has changed a lot and deimos would be obsolete without the change. Keep the utility slot for deimos as it is required. stick to your amarr whinning plz and tbh we blame u for this deimos changes Please tell me how different your current Deimos is from one oyu fitted out in 2006? Point noted. well for first, the fitting you use today with no grid mods, no plates, just neutrons and a DCU, expl. hardener and SAR wouldn't fit. there was no grid available, untill they boosted the grid some 3-4 months ago. yes, the all-might gank neutron deimos didn't exist, unless you slapped ACR's or RCU's in it. it was also slower than it is and fatter. so before you come and say that the deimos changes are fine, remember that it was boosted to the way it is just a couple of months ago. --- planetary interaction idea!
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: wierchas noobhunter Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Varshyll Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa. Demious is great with the change. Stop playing eve 2006 fitouts. Its 2008 and game balance has changed a lot and deimos would be obsolete without the change. Keep the utility slot for deimos as it is required. stick to your amarr whinning plz and tbh we blame u for this deimos changes Please tell me how different your current Deimos is from one oyu fitted out in 2006? Point noted. its not different .. i would better fly thorax now and then .. at least it don't cost 100 mils transformers!! do u see them ?
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:36:00 - [104] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:36:46 Originally by: Grimpak so before you come and say that the deimos changes are fine, remember that it was boosted to the way it is just a couple of months ago. Why fit the ebst guns, we amarr have to use lowest tier guns (focused Pulse/Beam) so you guys can also follow suit if your fitting problems are that bad. This is a massive boost due to cap booster and rep. People will now change from glass cannon to proper enjoyable combat. Again, you are still using 2006 pvp concept and not 2008 pvp, where a cap booster is required pretty much. If that does not cheer you up, then perhaps The theme of Lapute on a Guitar will Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:44:00 - [105] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Originally by: Ogul Maybe the Sac deserves a tanking boost too, just like the Deimos... the sac already has a tanking bonus XD (or 2 if you count the cap bonus) No it really should receive a tanking boost, we should start with moving one low to a med slot... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:46:00 - [106] Edited by: Grimpak on 03/02/2008 12:46:51 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:36:46 Originally by: Grimpak so before you come and say that the deimos changes are fine, remember that it was boosted to the way it is just a couple of months ago. Why fit the ebst guns, we amarr have to use lowest tier guns (focused Pulse/Beam) so you guys can also follow suit if your fitting problems are that bad. This is a massive boost due to cap booster and rep. People will now change from glass cannon to proper enjoyable combat. Again, you are still using 2006 pvp concept and not 2008 pvp, where a cap booster is required pretty much. If that does not cheer you up, then perhaps oh, and you couldn't fit the zealot before in a similar way? cap boosted would run out after 3-4 cycles and the rep would't help you at 1km range, where all the firepower of the deimos can be unleashed. but then again, you never fought at those ranges now did you? --- planetary interaction idea!
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:47:00 - [107] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Originally by: Ogul Maybe the Sac deserves a tanking boost too, just like the Deimos... the sac already has a tanking bonus XD (or 2 if you count the cap bonus) No it really should receive a tanking boost, we should start with moving one low to a med slot... They did if I remember correctly.
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:47:00 - [108] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/02/2008 12:36:46 Originally by: Grimpak so before you come and say that the deimos changes are fine, remember that it was boosted to the way it is just a couple of months ago. Why fit the ebst guns, we amarr have to use lowest tier guns (focused Pulse/Beam) so you guys can also follow suit if your fitting problems are that bad. This is a massive boost due to cap booster and rep. People will now change from glass cannon to proper enjoyable combat. Again, you are still using 2006 pvp concept and not 2008 pvp, where a cap booster is required pretty much. If that does not cheer you up, then perhaps oh, and you couldn't fit the zealot before in a similar way? remember kids eve 2008 pvp is about blobs .. who cares what u fit or how u fit transformers!! do u see them ?
XrayZ Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:53:00 - [109] dont say like that noobhunter :( i like solo/small gang pvp, dont give the kids pointers. the gallente basher jojo or whatever hes name is aparently never flown a deimos before. 2006 u couldnt fit it like u do today, and now its perfect imho. the tank bonus is gonna be poo, as u cant tank anything anyway, u lose all gank potential in this ship if u want a dual mar or something, and u can fit what? 3-4 cap boosters in ur cargo :/ yey \o/ zulu - u make baby jesus cry. --------------------------------------
wierchas noobhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.03 12:59:00 - [110] Originally by: XrayZ dont say like that noobhunter :( i like solo/small gang pvp, dont give the kids pointers. the gallente basher jojo or whatever hes name is aparently never flown a deimos before. 2006 u couldnt fit it like u do today, and now its perfect imho. the tank bonus is gonna be poo, as u cant tank anything anyway, u lose all gank potential in this ship if u want a dual mar or something, and u can fit what? 3-4 cap boosters in ur cargo :/ yey \o/ zulu - u make baby jesus cry. ♥ transformers!! do u see them ?
Polly Prissypantz	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:28:00 - [111] I don't even fly Deimos and still think this is a stupid change.
oniplE Blue.	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:43:00 - [112] Edited by: oniplE on 03/02/2008 13:44:01 Originally by: XrayZ dont say like that noobhunter :( i like solo/small gang pvp, dont give the kids pointers. the gallente basher jojo or whatever hes name is aparently never flown a deimos before. 2006 u couldnt fit it like u do today, and now its perfect imho. the tank bonus is gonna be poo, as u cant tank anything anyway, u lose all gank potential in this ship if u want a dual mar or something, and u can fit what? 3-4 cap boosters in ur cargo :/ yey \o/ zulu - u make baby jesus cry. You can fit 9 cap booster 800's, that leaves room for 1080 Void M. So if you have 8 boosters you should be able to store enough ammo. 8 boosters are not enough for roaming gangs, they'll be depleted in no-time. As for tanking, the deimos can be set up to activly tank a lot of damage. Its just that this new deimos does NOT deliver a much stronger tank, the active tank is improved with less than 10%. The bonus adds rep amount, but you lack a slot to add an extra EANM so it compensates. This also means the effective hitpoint buffer you have is smaller than a pre-nerf deimos. If CCP intended this to be a boost, they could have just added 450 (thats what its going to take to compensate for the removal of the MWD bonus, 250 is pathetic) cap and replace the MWD bonus with the rep amount bonus and leave the slot layout like it was. It still would have been a strange bonus for a gank ship but atleast the active tank would improve with significant numbers, while retaining effective hitpoints and keeping the option open to a gank deimos with 6 low slots. x
Akiman Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:04:00 - [113] u cant tank sh1t on deimos. rep bonus is out of question. other than that 4 meds looks nice if it didnt have pg issues.any blaster ship needs injector and any gallente knows it. but more than that any ship needs proper pg :P
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:07:00 - [114] I cant see how these changes are meant to be an improvement to the deimos. Losing a lowslot means I need to either have weaker armor resist (-EANM2) or lower damage output (-MFS2). So i actually end up with a ship that can tank less damage than before, and takes longer to kill things. Great. Can I even fit a medium cap booster without having to downgrade my guns? I doubt it, as I can remember my grid is already so tight I cant use my useless 6th highslot. So even less damage output. If anything, far from using the new mid for a capbooster, I'll probably try a passive buffer shield tank and nano it -that way i can keep my neutrons and my damage mods in lows. Either that or fit a 2nd webber in my new mid.. hmm
ChalSto Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:18:00 - [115] Dear CCP, would YOU please, for the love of god, employ only Devs, who actually PLAY the game? Kind regards PS: 5/4/6 Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
captain kikaz LEGI0N	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:34:00 - [116] Not at all happy about this. it is absolutely going to need power grid rigs to make any viable fit whatsoever. thanks ccp as if we didn't have enough isk sinks now I have to grind more to make up the money for the rigs that I will be forced to fit to my Demios , to make it competative. wts demios convo me
XrayZ Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:34:00 - [117] Originally by: ChalSto Dear CCP, would YOU please, for the love of god, employ only Devs, who actually PLAY the game? Kind regards PS: 5/4/6 this --------------------------------------
BABARR PARABELUM-Project	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:44:00 - [118] After a lot of patch/nerf/adjustement, the deimos was able (AT LEAST) to have a decent fit in T2, whith no CPU or grid issue. And now.... you want to change it. 4 med slot, why not, an armor rep bonus, why not, BUT if for that you remove a low slot, we are going to lose dmg output or resist, and if you remove the MWD cap bonus, we are all going to fit a cap injector, so use more powergrid, so fit smaller gun. Finaly, i don't really see what the change going to improve, we just going to have a more eficient armor rep, but less DPS or less resist. ... "Si vis pacem, parabellum"
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.02.03 15:08:00 - [119] Before I start, I do not fly a Deimos. I have no stake in this change. However it does seem rather counter-intuitive. In order to make use of this midslot one needs to downgrade guns. This takes away a fair chunk of the DPS you want it to stay alive to use. Furthermore, it has less cap than before, meaning it will have more trouble running a repper, especially given as above where someone showed that you can only carry a token number of charges + a small amount of one ammo. If you want a second type you must chop the amount you carry in half. As it stands you can only carry a tiny bit more than one full reload for electrons, so with two ammo types people will be fighting with guns that are less-than-full. A much more viable solution has been suggested. Subtract the utility high and make it a midslot, perhaps a tiny bit of fitting to make a booster workable. If you keep the rep bonus, then add enough cap to put the ship on par with the cap amount before the MWD bonus was removed. There is your reasoned discussion CCP. Reasoned, impartial discussion as to why this change is not an advisable idea. ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
Solomon XI Caldari Dawn of Chaos	Posted - 2008.02.03 15:38:00 - [120] Dear CCP: I don't fly a Deimos yet. But I've been training for one. This change effects me. Do you really want to help the Deimos? I mean, really help the Deimos? And not screw it completely over like your current idea's would? Do this. 5 High Slots 4 Mid Slots 6 Low Slots +Powergrid +CPU +Cargo Room Keep the Rep Bonus Properly Calculate The Cap Change (Instead of +250, do +500) Decrease the Cap Recharge Time Slightly.
Enkilil Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.03 15:49:00 - [121] Originally by: ChalSto Dear CCP, would YOU please, for the love of god, employ only Devs, who actually PLAY the game? Kind regards PS: 5/4/6 ^THIS Pretty simple stuff right? The Deimos finally got the love it deserved and they want to hose it in some other way. I agree, the devs no longer know wtf they're doing, and by the looks of it, have never piloted one. The Phobos doesn't live up to the MISSLE based storyline, The Deimos is finally good and they want to break it again. The Thorax hull was one of the reasons I loved this game, I actually prefer the Vigilant to my Deimos in most cases (exclude PvE, yes you can rat nicely in a Deimos).
Shereza	Posted - 2008.02.04 03:58:00 - [122] Let me see if I understand this correctly. Taking a mid slot from the eos and giving it a low slot was done to make it more survivable. Taking a low slot from the deimos and giving it a mid slot is supposed to make it more survivable. ........... Right then, so they're going to make the deimos more survivable while active tanking. At the same time they make it less survivable while passive armor tanking. At the same time they make it more of a "SOLOWTFPWNMOBILE" than it already is. At the same time they are apparently not doing anything to modify energy neutralizers and, in fact, by modifying this ship to accomodate MWD + web + scramble + injector are effectively stating that they expect cap injectors to be mandatory equipment on PvP ships. Can't we just get a 10% across the board power grid reduction in all ships and have cap injects built into them? I mean seriously, this would be a much better change if CCP is going to make it so or state that cap injectors are mandatory gear than mucking with the deimos' slots. ____________________ Behold the universal power of duct tape.
Gallen Cross Gallente Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.02.04 04:45:00 - [123] Edited by: Gallen Cross on 04/02/2008 04:44:59 please for the love of all things holy and good, leave well enough alone...the deimos is fine like it is.. for Gods sake you r giving the zealot the extra high slot and that is a good move.. dont go and ruin it by making a bad move like this. ________________________________________________ I am not smart enough to make a sig, nor do I care... Why am I even putting this here?
Creamster Xenobytes Stain Empire	Posted - 2008.02.04 04:55:00 - [124] You think this change is bad, just wait till the genius behind it slaps a shield boosting bonus on a vagabond. ___________ In Petition we trust
Amos Sommers Gallente The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.02.04 05:03:00 - [125] As a dedicated Gallente pilot I am very disappointed by this idea of CCP's. From day one, Deimos has suffered, because of it's fitting limitations. Deimos may have the highest DPS of all HAC's, however it lacks the power grid to support it. I understand the concept of suicide fits that feature do-or-die setup (no repairer), but to work with that kind of fitting Deimos also needs more Armor which it lacks. Finally we have the useless 6th Hi-Slot - what is the point of that I wonder? Because with most setups, even with PG rigs there is no room for a medium NOS... Now the dev post said.. that the Deimos lacks the energy capacity to support it's fits.. so they REMOVE the bonus that increases capacitor (logic failure?) and add medium slot so we can fit Capacitor Boosters. So now not only do we have less energy to work with, we also need more power grid to fit a Medium Capacitor Booster to compensate for this lack... ... again logical failure? I do think so.. EVE of War.
Trind2222 Amarr Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.04 06:22:00 - [126] The rep bonus make me cry Do not change the deimos is good as it is. I don't know what say to make ccp leave it alone but hope they do leave it alone.
Zephyr Rengate Racketeers	Posted - 2008.02.04 07:19:00 - [127] 5/4/6 + CPU + PG +cargo bay then i'm a happy bunny. How many people are gonna fly a brutix instead of a Deimos now?
Wardeneo Gallente N.E.O NEW EVE ORDER Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.04 09:19:00 - [128] Edited by: Wardeneo on 04/02/2008 09:25:32 restore high, med adn lows slots back to normal (maybe adding in the extra med on top for such stupidity as for removing a low in the first place , keep the extra pg added, simple , this would please all deimos pilots i believe :) on a serious note go bk 2 6 lows, keep 4 meds adn go 5 highs (i dont care about the last high, all u can fit is a small nos and i have a med cap booster) also give it 1000pg, its only 10 extra pg, but it makes for a more even number and maybe another 5m/s or some more cargo space? - for more cap charges :) wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Wardeneo Gallente N.E.O NEW EVE ORDER Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.04 09:26:00 - [129] Edited by: Wardeneo on 04/02/2008 09:26:52 Originally by: Solomon XI Dear CCP: I don't fly a Deimos yet. But I've been training for one. This change effects me. Do you really want to help the Deimos? I mean, really help the Deimos? And not screw it completely over like your current idea's would? Do this. 5 High Slots 4 Mid Slots 6 Low Slots +Powergrid +CPU +Cargo Room Keep the Rep Bonus Properly Calculate The Cap Change (Instead of +250, do +500) Decrease the Cap Recharge Time Slightly. this person read my mind, i feel an idiot for posting the same thing in my comment lol wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Ishtar1 Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.04 10:10:00 - [130] Edited by: Ishtar1 on 04/02/2008 10:10:56 seriously ccp wtf this is mearly gona push more peeps towards the ishtar then you will nerf that eventualy and gallente hacs will be a laughing stock Have you not considered that alot of people who fly the deimos do so for the reasons you are about to take away. This is making the deimos a tanking orintated ship.... you know thats something i never thought i would hear myself say. The deimos does not tank if it does its a passive tank its a D...P...S ship jeeeez 1 Low < 1 Med
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.04 11:03:00 - [131] Deimos high moved to low for win. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.04 11:06:00 - [132] CCP, please don't gimp the Deimos. It's doing fine. No one is complaining about it, from either side. 1) No one is complaining about it being over-powered 2) No one is complaining about it being under-powered You finally fixed the ship (long after threads reaching into the thousands), please don't touch it! Messing with it, as the environment stands currently, can only have one possible outcome, you break it.
ChalSto Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.04 14:36:00 - [133] "Hi, my name is Dev XY. I dont play the game yet, but I think certain ships should be changed, becouse I know all parts of the game yet (becouse i¦ve eaten wissdom with the spoon) and becouse I¦m a Dev." CCP, seriously.....fire these guys and bring Tux back PS: 5/4/6 Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
Autumn Skryf	Posted - 2008.02.04 16:50:00 - [134] Ship seems fine to me. There's some whining here but it appears to be a vocal minority.
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:53:00 - [135] Em... it's getting a 4th mid, meaning cap booster? Jeezo - take of the Neutrons and use your head. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:55:00 - [136] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate 5/4/6 + CPU + PG +cargo bay + overpowered. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Aston Gulliver Gallente Kudzu Collective Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:58:00 - [137] I've been a deimos pilot for a little over a year. I quit flying the ship 2 months ago. Its a primary bucket and doesn't have the defenses to justify its role. While I think this "buff" was well intentioned, the slot layout is less than optimal. To be frank, if you don't gank the target, a single medium rep isn't going to save you. 2-3 mag stabs on a deimos is a must for this which leave 2-3 low slots for tanking (assuming the new changes on sisi as well as assuming you've double grid rigged the thing to fit neutrons, cap injector, micro and a medium rep). The rep bonus does not solve the deimos' inability to tank, and the loss of a low slot compounds the issue. How about changing the rep bonus to a resist bonus? It would benefit both active and passive tanking. The high --> low slot change would be welcome as well.
Zubakis Bambooule Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:04:00 - [138] Since the introduction of lag and blobs, active tanking doesn't work very well CCP This change sucks. -- Zuba
Rainsdon Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:05:00 - [139] - 5/4/6 - Keep the added bonus. /Signed
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:18:00 - [140] Originally by: Rainsdon - 5/4/6 - Keep the added bonus. /Signed Ick no. The new bonuses suck. Where will you get the grid for a repper and cap booster? Also, did you know that the deimos now has LESS cap than before without the mwd bonus? Of course if you just don't fit a mwd then you get more cap. Because Im sure ccp KNOWS that people fit AB's on their deimos, just like they fit medium armor reppers. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:03:00 - [141] To see this in an objective non whine happy point of view : Rep bonus is ok, but having one less low slots means either one less resist or dmg slot. So basically having a repair setup about as good as before this change if you take out one resist mod, or having less dps by removing a dmg mod but a better tank. No mwd bonus is ok, they beefed up the base cap, fools. Cap wasn't too bad before, unless cap neuted. Now we can have plenty cap to run a rep or even two, but i wonder with a 5 slot armor tank if its going to be enough. Hope they did the math right.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:08:00 - [142] Edited by: Grimpak on 04/02/2008 20:08:26 Originally by: Trevor Warps To see this in an objective non whine happy point of view : Rep bonus is ok, but having one less low slots means either one less resist or dmg slot. So basically having a repair setup about as good as before this change if you take out one resist mod, or having less dps by removing a dmg mod but a better tank. No mwd bonus is ok, they beefed up the base cap, fools. Cap wasn't too bad before, unless cap neuted. Now we can have plenty cap to run a rep or even two, but i wonder with a 5 slot armor tank if its going to be enough. Hope they did the math right. it ends up with less cap with the changes, if you fit a mwd. it also has cargo big enough for 8 800 cap charges and 1000 units of ammo, wich means 1, maybe 2 fights and it's time to return to base because you have run dry of cap charges and ammo. but tbh I like the deimos as it is now. why change it? --- planetary interaction idea!
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:14:00 - [143] Originally by: Grimpak it ends up with less cap with the changes, if you fit a mwd. it also has cargo big enough for 8 800 cap charges and 1000 units of ammo, wich means 1, maybe 2 fights and it's time to return to base because you have run dry of cap charges and ammo. but tbh I like the deimos as it is now. why change it? Bit less cap aint that bad now with an injector. And room for 2 fights is fine, you wont make it to the 2nd fight with the current Deimos. I like the Deimos atm, but it would be better with more defense. I think they are trying to go that route. Because tbh, now it is just a 100m toy that goes pop real quick.
Jennae Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:18:00 - [144] but the repp bonus with make it so much better for missions!!!! /sarcasm
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:21:00 - [145] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Grimpak it ends up with less cap with the changes, if you fit a mwd. it also has cargo big enough for 8 800 cap charges and 1000 units of ammo, wich means 1, maybe 2 fights and it's time to return to base because you have run dry of cap charges and ammo. but tbh I like the deimos as it is now. why change it? Bit less cap aint that bad now with an injector. And room for 2 fights is fine, you wont make it to the 2nd fight with the current Deimos. I like the Deimos atm, but it would be better with more defense. I think they are trying to go that route. Because tbh, now it is just a 100m toy that goes pop real quick. nor you will after the changes aswell, since you'll be pretty much in half armor when you reach optimal and no enhanced repper can repair that in the time that you try to finish up the guy. it's not a good change tbh. I like my glass cannon as it is --- planetary interaction idea!
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:25:00 - [146] Originally by: Grimpak nor you will after the changes aswell, since you'll be pretty much in half armor when you reach optimal and no enhanced repper can repair that in the time that you try to finish up the guy. it's not a good change tbh. I like my glass cannon as it is Still can fit a 800mm plate, mwd, inject and some guns as it is now. Can't make everyone happy, i can see my Deimos getting harder to kill ... but will do tickle dmg. But I dont like to have like 10 gallente ships with a rep bonus ...
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.04 22:10:00 - [147] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Varshyll Simply remove one high slot and put a med slot instead : _Gank Deimos wil be better, with a tracking comp or a sensor booster _Tank (?) Deimos will be available, with electron/cap booster/Mar Do NOT touch to bonuses, grid/cpu/capa. Demious is great with the change. Stop playing eve 2006 fitouts. Its 2008 and game balance has changed a lot and deimos would be obsolete without the change. Keep the utility slot for deimos as it is required. What is difference between 2006 pvp and 2008 pvp? plz explain I think your just a whining troll, who has no idea about actualy pvp in game and just uses eft to make whine threads about ships that you probably have very little real fleet or gang pvp experience with
Prez21 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.04 22:18:00 - [148] The entire change is rubbish, both the new slot layout and the new bonus, for the love of god ccp fire the moron who is making these changes and get someone who nows how to play the game before its to late
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.02.04 23:13:00 - [149] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Xequecal The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente. no I don't. I still have less cap than I have now (1719) BASE capacitor. That's BEFORE Engineering. The Deimos' current base cap is 1375. God damn. Tell, em, citizen. -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
asdaghsrawfvas	Posted - 2008.02.04 23:28:00 - [150] Sorry i seem to be blind, anyone have linky to were the changes are?
0m3g4 w34p0n Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.05 00:53:00 - [151] Originally by: Marramin I am a Thorax pilot who was skilling slowly for the Deimos. Not anymore. No logic here at all. This is Thorax hull and this means MWD bonus. Why having the Tech II version drops the base MWD bonus. No point. And by the way, why not changed the ship description in game. At this point, it is all false. If i was not reading the board, i wouldn't know. Have to change my plans now. Good job. yeah, because listening to what the majority of people say on this fourm is a good idea.
Corphus The NewOrder	Posted - 2008.02.05 01:48:00 - [152] i said it already but the current deimos change is nuts and as u see it in this thread is not really accepted as a good and well thought out idea. if u want to make the deimos better and more resilent than: change the utility hi slot into a 4th med instead of stealing a low. its an armour tanked ship afterall. leave the mwd bonus in place or if u totally want to change the mwd bonus into a rep related one give the deimos at least enuff cap capacity to compensate for the mwd penalty completely. add 100m¦ to its cargobay for booster charges. same goes for the zealot which is currently the hac with the smallest cargobay and which uses cap for both, guns and repping.
JustAddWatah Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.02.05 01:50:00 - [153] Originally by: Aston Gulliver I've been a deimos pilot for a little over a year. I quit flying the ship 2 months ago. Its a primary bucket and doesn't have the defenses to justify its role. While I think this "buff" was well intentioned, the slot layout is less than optimal. To be frank, if you don't gank the target, a single medium rep isn't going to save you. 2-3 mag stabs on a deimos is a must for this which leave 2-3 low slots for tanking (assuming the new changes on sisi as well as assuming you've double grid rigged the thing to fit neutrons, cap injector, micro and a medium rep). The rep bonus does not solve the deimos' inability to tank, and the loss of a low slot compounds the issue. How about changing the rep bonus to a resist bonus? It would benefit both active and passive tanking. The high --> low slot change would be welcome as well. THIS! My main complaint is the bonuses... Adding a repair bonus and removing a low slot is like adding a drone damage bonus and removing a drone bay. I like the idea of an increase in resists!! I guess the devs want everyone in Brutixes...or even worse, more people in Nano-ishtars Nice! way to ruin a perfectly balanced ship.
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.05 04:15:00 - [154] CCP I might simply be a 'gamer' here, but seriously. The changes to the Deimos and the changes to the EM armor resists are ridiculous. I really do think someone high on the food chain should be pointing and *****ing about this; and fix this issue before it goes live. Not a single Deimos pilot welcomes this change. And, as before when the Deimos did suck with laughable powergrid and pathetic speed... even people who do NOT fly the Deimos are complaining. Why is this wonderful ship, always picked on like a red-headed step child?
Kaiji Vincente	Posted - 2008.02.05 08:27:00 - [155] Originally by: Wardeneo Edited by: Wardeneo on 04/02/2008 09:26:52 Originally by: Solomon XI Dear CCP: I don't fly a Deimos yet. But I've been training for one. This change effects me. (Commentary with numbers I agree with but have removed for brevity.) this person read my mind, i feel an idiot for posting the same thing in my comment lol wardeneo It affects everyone who's trained or planning to train Gallente Cruiser V, because that's the universal prereq for all the Tech II gallente hulls. Which ones you aim for (first) are just a matter of supporting skills. But the main point: I like flying the Thorax because it's fitting quirks work best with a tactical approach that is fundamentally -different- from the Brutix, Myrmidon, or Vexor. And more importantly, one that I find to be FUN. Sure, the Demios (as it is on TQ) is heavily specalized towards this particular role. But with this complete reshuffling, it's unique flavor is discarded. Now, it comes across as the ship you get while training for the Astarte, but have no compelling reason to use while doing so. A situation which smacks very distastefully of "you must first reach level X to use this new, all around better $ITEM" artificial variety that Blizzard is so damned fond of. If Tech II gallente combat ships are being reduced to nothing more than variations on a single theme, please tell us in advance. Don't suprise people with making a bunch of ships linear upgrades of the same concept, with each new step rendering the previous ones obsolete once it's obtained. (Doubly so when the general consensus is that it's the result of half baked tinkering that was dropped onto SiSi directly from notes scribbled on a bar napkin the night before.)
Julius Romanus Amarr Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.05 08:32:00 - [156] Originally by: Durethia CCP I might simply be a 'gamer' here, but seriously. The changes to the Deimos and the changes to the EM armor resists are ridiculous. I really do think someone high on the food chain should be pointing and *****ing about this; and fix this issue before it goes live. Not a single Deimos pilot welcomes this change. And, as before when the Deimos did suck with laughable powergrid and pathetic speed... even people who do NOT fly the Deimos are complaining. Why is this wonderful ship, always picked on like a red-headed step child? Just so we're clear, you actually think the em resist change is a bad idea?
Lelulie Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.02.05 09:14:00 - [157] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Xequecal The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente. no I don't. I still have less cap than I have now (1719) BASE capacitor. That's BEFORE Engineering. The Deimos' current base cap is 1375. God damn. Deimos on TQ with MWD = 1718 cap. Deimos on Sisi with MWD = 1523 cap as there's no bonus, just a higher starting point now. No one's gonna use an Afterburner on it. ------------------------------------
Adamantium Beams Section XIII	Posted - 2008.02.05 10:33:00 - [158] Edited by: Adamantium Beams on 05/02/2008 10:33:51 Look like we now have 2 brutix, one w/ 7 guns who cost 25m and one w/ 5 guns but who cost 4 times more. 2 years of complain for a change and we are ****** 2 months later, good On the other hand we will have a 5 turrets zealot with 7 low slots, more gank, more range, more tank
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2008.02.05 11:11:00 - [159] wrong forums for this topic, moderators please move to "crime and punishment"
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.05 11:54:00 - [160] Originally by: Kieran Jarnush wrong forums for this topic, moderators please move to "crime and punishment" The only crime is that some people still don't see that the new Deimos will have less cap than the old one. But maybe someone will step forward to suggest fitting an afterburner to improve speed tanking. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.05 11:59:00 - [161] Originally by: Gallente WAH Try a muninn, then complain. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
TajelejaT Gallente Lithuanians	Posted - 2008.02.05 12:42:00 - [162] Give that rep bonus to remote armor repairer. So it could remoterep. It will be niew logistic ship at least. Or 2 deimos reping each other. Becouse now all I can put to 6 high slot is cd plaer, and die with good music
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.05 15:17:00 - [163] Originally by: Ogul The only crime is that some people still don't see that the new Deimos will have less cap than the old one. Tell me about it. Look, people: The old Deimos had 1375 cap. With Gallente cruiser V (which you needed to fly it, so every Deimos pilot will have it), your MWD penalty becomes 0. The new Deimos gets a boost of 250 cap, to 1625, but loses the MWD penalty bonus. Fit a MWD (which you honestly need, and don't anyone dare disagree), and you lose 406 of that cap, leaving you with 1219 cap. Last time I checked, 1219 < 1375. I love my Deimos just the way it is. Leave it, please. Shin's writings
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.05 16:35:00 - [164] Deimos pilot here. I like the ship as it is, but promise to log into the test server and see how you were going to make it. Over in Theoryland, however... -1 High, +1 Mid is a better way to go. Oh, and with the current setups, there's approximately a 30DPS difference between 5x ion and 5x neuts. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Lil Mule	Posted - 2008.02.05 16:38:00 - [165] Well hopefully CCP is listening. Yet again tinkering with stuff because of a lack of a consistent plan of what to do with a given ship line (Which should ideally be planned out 1-2 years in advance). I dont fly a Diemos, so I really cant comment, but if the ship isnt uber over powered, and people like its paper thin tank and all gank, then it should stand. Here you go gallente pilots, despite all the jabs against Amarr whining (yes I fly Amarr), I dont even fly the ship but the stats delivered make it sound like its going to be nerfed - and thus it shouldnt happen. So CCP please dont nerf this ship. Either find another way to make your vision of this ship happen, or better yet, leave it alone. ----------------------------------------------- People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.05 16:54:00 - [166] Originally by: Havok Pierce Oh, and with the current setups, there's approximately a 30DPS difference between 5x ion and 5x neuts. yes, but how do you setup a neutron deimos and an ion deimos? --- planetary interaction idea!
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.05 17:06:00 - [167] Originally by: Havok Pierce Oh, and with the current setups, there's approximately a 30DPS difference between 5x ion and 5x neuts. You also lose about 20% of range. ---
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.05 17:59:00 - [168] Originally by: Julius Romanus Just so we're clear, you actually think the em resist change is a bad idea? A grotesque idea, not just bad. Remember www.ogrish.com, where one used to get the real world news and in full gore and glory? That kind of horrid idea. 80% resists on any other damage type is generally regarded as a good tank. 80% resists on EM is generally considered NO tank. And only until you're smacked with pulse lasers do you realize you can't effectively tank the damage unless your resistances were +90% on EM. So gimping every armor tanker out there on EM is ridiculous. Besides, they have yet to state whether they were going to redistribute the loss points to some other damage type. gimp EM on all armor tankers, ok, place the point difference into explosive.
Julius Romanus Amarr Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:16:00 - [169] Originally by: Durethia Originally by: Julius Romanus Just so we're clear, you actually think the em resist change is a bad idea? A grotesque idea, not just bad. Remember www.ogrish.com, where one used to get the real world news and in full gore and glory? That kind of horrid idea. 80% resists on any other damage type is generally regarded as a good tank. 80% resists on EM is generally considered NO tank. And only until you're smacked with pulse lasers do you realize you can't effectively tank the damage unless your resistances were +90% on EM. So gimping every armor tanker out there on EM is ridiculous. Besides, they have yet to state whether they were going to redistribute the loss points to some other damage type. gimp EM on all armor tankers, ok, place the point difference into explosive. HAHAHA. At you, not with you. Here's a hint: I use pulse lasers.
Mortuus Minmatar Occassus Republica Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:23:00 - [170] Lolz at EM resist change being bad. I love it, and I use AC's. Anyway, about the Deimos, I think the current changes would be fine IF: It got a bit more cap or added fitting for that mid slot. As it is, you throw down another slot (that usually takes a hell of a lot more than a EANM t2 to fit) and PG upgrade to go with it? I mean if fitting an injector was viable then I could see the reduced cap. But without it.... Occassus Republica <3
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:52:00 - [171] Originally by: Khorian Originally by: Havok Pierce Oh, and with the current setups, there's approximately a 30DPS difference between 5x ion and 5x neuts. You also lose about 20% of range. Plus, in all likelihood, you lose a mag stab II. Remember, you're losing a low slot with this change. Assuming you already fit a MAR II, DCU II, EANM II, explosive hardener II and 2 mag stab IIs, you're faced with either significantly reducing your tank, or dropping a mag stab II. To me, that's the bigger woe here. I could live with a 5-4-6 Deimos that had to fit ion IIs, but an ion Deimos that couldn't fit a proper gank fit is just asking for trouble. Shin's writings
Robstr Solar Storm	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:04:00 - [172] Edited by: Robstr on 05/02/2008 21:06:32 If your running the Standard MAR2, Explosive Hardner, EAMN and DCU tank. If you remove the EANM with the changes your active tank will still actually be better than before. The repping bonus makes up for the loss(plus some) of the EANM at lvl4 hac. That's not to say I completely agree with the changes. Loosing a high slot instead of the low is a much better idea. Loosing that cap we had also sucks a good one. It hurts the passive setups a bit too much. But to me, it would all be resolved with a grid/cpu bump so we can fit t2 ions, a MWD, 2x med repper and a med cap booster and no grid mods. ====
Zanon Xiu Dogs 0f War	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:26:00 - [173] guys after todays patch the demios has 5 high slots, 4 med and 6 lows the rep bonus is still there and has 1635 cap.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:01:00 - [174] Originally by: Zanon Xiu guys after todays patch the demios has 5 high slots, 4 med and 6 lows the rep bonus is still there and has 1635 cap. They did it ? I mean ... Hell yeah !
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:10:00 - [175] Originally by: Trevor Warps Originally by: Zanon Xiu guys after todays patch the demios has 5 high slots, 4 med and 6 lows the rep bonus is still there and has 1635 cap. They did it ? I mean ... Hell yeah ! no it was a mistake from his part. --- planetary interaction idea!
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:12:00 - [176] Originally by: Grimpak no it was a mistake from his part. Oh god what a turn off !
Zanon Xiu The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:17:00 - [177] sorry guys my bad. i guess im so into seeing the damn ship as others mentioned. im so depressed my brains playing tricks with me Im so traumatize, when i go buy my next car i might be asking how many high slots and low slots it has. and if it can use a mwd.
Djerin Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:07:00 - [178] Being a Deimos pilot i aggree with most comments in this thread. The rep bonus wont turn the Deimos into a decent tank platform. It is intended to be a gank ship after all, hence the double damage bonus. Taking away a lowslot is like a massive nerf to this ship. This is because it reduces either damageouput or it's already little defensive potential. And doing this in combination with a significant boost to other hacs this is like an additional nerf to the deimos. Why are you doing this? There was no need to double nerf the Deimos. There wasn't even a need for a single nerf. The ship was fine for what it was intended to be. After those changes it will suck at it's purpose and fail any other job too. /me votes against changes. ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
ChalSto Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:53:00 - [179] Edited by: ChalSto on 06/02/2008 11:56:41 Just a month ago, I was an outskilled gallente pilot, who flys the Deimos, as it should be. Since a month I thought, why not giving the Vagabound a chance. So I skilled for it and thats the result in comparison with the Deimos: Deimos: Extremly difficult ship to fly. I dont mean only skill whise, but the "player"-skill, that is highly recommend to use this ship.....I mean, if I could make a choise in the difficult-level in EvE, u have chosen "Nightmare". Like grim likes to say: glass-cannon. But the reward (remember, there is a risk/reward thingy in EvE, dear "Devs") , if u do everything right (and I god damn mean "everything", becouse if not, ur dead), is.....well i cant descibe it in words, just in feelings: "bang bang....ur dead dude ". From time to time I catch Vagas with it, becouse of the so called "kill-obssesion" of the most Vaga pilots . They pop, before they finish the sentence "OMG, I lost my shie.......BOOOM". Vagabound: I cant use T2-shieldExtenders yet, I cant use T2-guns with it yet. All named stuff. -> Set orbit 15km, klicky klicky, drones out, scrambler, and if something goes wrong, klicky, klicky, keep distance 50km, MWD on, ur safe. Hello? To fly this ship needs NOT BY FAR, NOT EVEN NEAR the "player-skill" to fly a Deimos. Vagabound is a very very fine solo-ship for ppl, who cant play EvE a lot of time and want to have some fun with "low-risk". (Please dont get upset, Minmatar-pilots, but this is a fact.) And now they want to change the Deimos, becouse there are lots of new players out there, who whining, they cant handle the Deimos the way it should be. Use a Vaga and dont whine. My massage to this players (who might be possibly Devs too): I¦M SO SORRY THAT YOU DONT HAVE THE SKILL AND THE INTELLIGENCE TO FLY THIS FINE SHIP. MY HEART BLEEDS. I¦M SO SORRY THAT GUYS LIKE YOU WILL ALLWAYS BE VICTIMS IN THIS GAME, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WHINE. CCP, fix players Oh, btw: 5/4/6 Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
Djerin Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:55:00 - [180] Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos.. ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:06:00 - [181] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/02/2008 13:07:11 Originally by: ChalSto Vagabound: I cant use T2-shieldExtenders yet, I cant use T2-guns with it yet. All named stuff. -> Set orbit 15km, klicky klicky, drones out, scrambler, and if something goes wrong, klicky, klicky, keep distance 50km, MWD on, ur safe. Where do you fly? My Rupture is hungry Other then that, yeah, the Deimos is tricky to fly and fully deserves a 5/4/6 layout together with some more grid so you can actually, you know, do something with the fourth midslot. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ChalSto Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:09:00 - [182] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/02/2008 13:07:11 Originally by: ChalSto Where do you fly? My Rupture is hungry That would be a very very short meeting with the Deimos But if you wish: Somewhere between Nonni/Torrinos, hunting Tri :P PS: 5/4/6 Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
Adrian Steel Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:46:00 - [183] I'm not a Deimos pilot, and I thought this change is regressive. Then I talked to seasoned Deimos veterans, and I KNEW this change is regressive.
joshmorris Silver Snake Enterprise SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.06 21:36:00 - [184] 5/4/6 Uber idea solves all !!
Ervi	Posted - 2008.02.06 21:53:00 - [185] They nerf the EOS, Myrmidon, all drones, gallente recons are now useless. Deimos have a very weak tank but is a decent ship, and they want to make it worse. 5/4/6 /signed
Azekial Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2008.02.06 22:14:00 - [186] Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi Originally by: Ogul The only crime is that some people still don't see that the new Deimos will have less cap than the old one. Tell me about it. Look, people: The old Deimos had 1375 cap. With Gallente cruiser V (which you needed to fly it, so every Deimos pilot will have it), your MWD penalty becomes 0. The new Deimos gets a boost of 250 cap, to 1625, but loses the MWD penalty bonus. Fit a MWD (which you honestly need, and don't anyone dare disagree), and you lose 406 of that cap, leaving you with 1219 cap. Last time I checked, 1219 < 1375. I love my Deimos just the way it is. Leave it, please. My proposition: Deimos: * Slots: 5/4/6 (-1 hi, +1 med) * Capacitor capacity: 1800.0en (+425en/+31%) * Bonuses: ~ 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per Gallente Cruiser level (no change) ~ 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Gallente Cruiser level (replaces the MWD capacitor penalty reduction) This proposed change would be in favour of the Deimos and not regressive as most people have either stated or implied.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.02.07 00:32:00 - [187] The problem with putting a repair bonus on the deimos, or any heavy assault ship, is that they are heavy assault ships, not defenders or heavy defenders. Their offense is, and should be, their defense. The only way this change is workable, to me, is if it's an effort to rectify an over-sight on their part. An oversight where the sacrilege and moa get tank bonuses in the form of resistances and the vagabond gets a tank bonus in the form of its speed bonus while neither gallente ship gets a traditional or non-traditional tank bonus of any sort. ____________________ Behold the universal power of duct tape.
Djerin Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.07 00:37:00 - [188] Imho the repair bonus is a complete waste, no matter if you change a high or a low to medium. Let me explain. Assume the proposed change makes it in the way it was announced in the dev blog. -To use the repper bonus you'd have to setup all the way tank. If you dont you cannot tank anything beyond 200 DPS which i seriously do not consider tanking really. -With Ions you could easily fit MWD, injector and a single t2 rep. You'd have t2 base resistances and you would be using a 5 slot tank. If you put in aux nano pumps you could tank about 350 DPS depending on your compensation skills. BUT: Since you need ammo you cannot carry around more than 9 or 10 bosster charges (800s, one already loaded in injector). So you'd be able to tank stuff for 6+ minutes. That is if you're not donated cap transfer. You'd be dealing the DPS of a Thorax w/ 1 or 2 magstabs in the process. A Brutix would be better in every way, except for agility - it costs significantly less. The only difference of changing a hi to med instead of the low would be, that you'd deal about the Brutix DPS. You'd still tank worse and be far more expensive. I say we don't need the rep amount bonus. I would complain less about a passive defensive bonus like armor resistances per level or armor hitpoints per level. But the rep amount is pointless. There is no way you can do anything usefull in a combat situation with that stuff. It's not like we're having one on one situations all the time. A good tank on a HAC is only possible and usefull if you setup your ship for NPCing and avoid PVP. But why would you do that? There are cheaper ships that do the NPCing job much better. Please CCP, forget the idea of a Deimos tanking something with it's repper. It doesn't need fixing. If the pilot is well trained skillpoint and experience wise this ship is totally fine. It's not about the numbers in the end. ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.07 01:45:00 - [189] Edited by: Khorian on 07/02/2008 01:48:57 You know, when I first heard of this "nerf" I thought: ****, there are not enough die hard Deimos Fanatics out there to make a big enough impression on CCP to not go through with this change. I'm so happy I was wrong :) CCP, we fought for months in that 40+ pages thread for this ship. Don't ruin it now after you fixed it. Deimos's Defense is (and should be) its offense. If anything, it needs more DPS ;P You increased HP on ships not too long ago, but the DPS stayed the same. This was definately a blow to the Short Range DPS ships. But we adapted and with the last big change to the Deimos it became actually quite usefull (and frequently used), and most importantly fun to fly. Some people enjoy not swimming with the flow but against it. Flying Deimos is a totally different expirience to most other ships in EvE. It is actually nerve wrecking at times, but in a good way :) I think it's safe to say that the Deimos is not regarded as being overpowered by the general populace. Many even laugh at it (but they wouldn't dare go into web range). But as you can also see most Deimos Pilots like it the way it is. Deimos is different, we don't want a gimp armor rep bonus. We are fully aware we are going to die ;P But we are gonna take someone else down with us when we have to go. No repper bonus will save us from that. Please find another way, or don't change it at all. PS.: Give her a Web Range bonus instead ;P ---
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.07 01:48:00 - [190] I have no clue why ANYONE is suggesting to keep the 7.5% armor repair bonus. It is as if they have given up and are going through a stage of grim acceptance, but they still believe ccp will change their mind so they put forth compromise setups (aka go ahead and keep the 7.5% bonus but do this and that) It is totally unacceptable. The armor rep bonus has absolutely no place on that ship, and without any extra grid it will NEVER have a place...ever. I seriously doubt everyone will spend isk on PG rigs just to use their 2nd hac bonus. I know I won't. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Saiee Do'Arn Nothing Personal Inc	Posted - 2008.02.07 11:22:00 - [191] Repair amount is not 'uber', but is ok - sometimes (mosttimes =)) useless, sometimes nasty - nothing wrong with it. But removing 6th low-slot moves deimos to other role, leaving without any role to be true. 5 low is cool for nanoships and PvE and is totally not enought for tank/dps setups. More surveability is nice idea. In close range you never have 'enought' tanking - even tanked phobos dies rapidly. 5/3/7 - is perfect for cunning close range pwnmachine (as i like deimos), leaving some space to play with fitting. 5/4/6 - is nice. dual-web, eccm or trackdis - all go in. 6/4/5 - is ugly, only acceptable with 6 turrent hi-slots to compensate lost magstab and still no more then acceptable. Devs, are you remember 'old', pre-missile, sacrilege? You gonna make something same with 'new deimos'.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:03:00 - [192] Dude, the Deimos is supposed to be nano'd now ... so it gets the same slot layout as the Vagabond. ;-P EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Bradstone Team Squirrel	Posted - 2008.02.07 12:24:00 - [193] Devastated... now the beloved Gallente are getting it in the neck... I know for a fact many of my PvP friends are not going to be happy with this change... I full out agree that this change is totally uncalled for. HAC's were already a dying breed, and the Deimos was the salvation of the HAC, but now with this change its truly made the era of the damage HAC end, most sad. I truly fear what will pop out next from the dark, scheming labs at ccp... 100% signed - save the deimos
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.07 15:29:00 - [194] Originally by: Djerin Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos.. It's funny how you word this, as though the Deimos is a new and upcoming ship. i.e. "we already have..." Just so you know, HACs were out long before Heavy Interdictors and the best tank that can be put on a Deimos, currently with 6 lows, can not really compare.
Djerin Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.07 15:50:00 - [195] Originally by: Durethia Originally by: Djerin Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos.. It's funny how you word this, as though the Deimos is a new and upcoming ship. i.e. "we already have..." Just so you know, HACs were out long before Heavy Interdictors and the best tank that can be put on a Deimos, currently with 6 lows, can not really compare. No you just didn't get the point. Deimos was never intended to be tanking anything. HICs on the other hand obviously needed to be tanking really good. So after HICs have been introduced, why do we need to give a good tank to the Deimos?! There is absolutely no need to do so. And as i explained it doesn't even work properly, more like extremely inefficiently. ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.07 15:55:00 - [196] Edited by: Grimpak on 07/02/2008 15:55:18 Originally by: Durethia Originally by: Djerin Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos.. It's funny how you word this, as though the Deimos is a new and upcoming ship. i.e. "we already have..." Just so you know, HACs were out long before Heavy Interdictors and the best tank that can be put on a Deimos, currently with 6 lows, can not really compare. eehh.. best tank you can slap in a deimos is 5 faction neutrons with shadow serp AM, 3 officer mag stabs and 5 med ECM drones. that is pretty much the very best tank you can slap on the deimos however it is also very expensive, so most of us are contempt with 5 T2 neutrons, 3 T2 mag stabs, fed navy AM and 5 ecm drones --- planetary interaction idea!
Loreth Gallente V.L.A.S.T.	Posted - 2008.02.07 17:00:00 - [197] First, Deimos is FINE as it is. 3 Medium slot means you have to chose either effective tackling(web+scram)or cap stability(cap injector). Choosing and not having it all is good imo. The low slots ARE(hope not WERE) what the ship is made for - DPS with some hitpoints to survive doing it. Removing a low slot is actually gimping the ship's flexibility since a damage platform is dependant mainly on its lows imho. And a repair bonus ... roflcakes ... why didn't u give the sacrilege a repair bonus back then ? Leave the dream-DPS-HAC alone this time CCP! Please we mean it!
Klavayne Free Mercenaries Union FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2008.02.07 18:42:00 - [198] If ccp are so determined to boost its defensive capabilities, surely a boost to its hp buffer would be more appropriate. Say, 10% to armor hitpoints or something. 5/4/6
Herz Ing	Posted - 2008.02.08 02:06:00 - [199] 5/4/6 ! I just wanted to add to my previous post that the armor rep bonus doesn't make much sense. What could the devs find wrong with the MWD bonus? It's effectively a +33% cap bonus - for those Deimos pilots that use an MWD ( 100% of 'em from the looks of this thread ). The only positive spin you could put on this is that replacing it helps those people who want to fly the Deimos without an MWD. IMO, the problem here is that the armor rep bonus is just like the MWD bonus. It only helps the people that use an armor rep. I'm happy flying a Deimos with a plate instead of a rep and I think a large number of posters in this thread ( maybe the majority ) do the same. So we're going from a situationally useful bonus that was used by most to a situationally useful bonus used by a few. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's a nerf? If the intent here was to boost the Deimos' tank then a resistance bonus would be a better fit. Or you could mess with it's Sig radius, hp, etc... but don't leave passive tankers out in the cold. Also, as it stands the new Deimos has less cap than the old Deimos when fitted with an MWD. That's definitely a nerf. Less low slots for tanking? Also a nerf. Quote: After a significant amount of testing with the changes to the Zealot, it became apparent that the Deimos had problems compared to the other close range heavy assault ships. As the damage output is already the highest of all the HACs, we looked into boosting its defenses so it had a fighting chance. One of the main problems of actively repaired Deimos setups is the high energy requirement, so we have changed the slot layout so the Deimos can accommodate a capacitor booster. Do you mean 1v1? How often does that happen? To put it into perspective: I got caught in a gatecamp last week flying a dual MAR II Ishtar - it lasted all of 10 seconds. ( No, I'm not sore about replacing the ship, it was due to my own ineptitude ). When you're fighting in a gang armor repping is pretty useless: It'll take ~1 minute for an MARII to give you the same amount of HP as 800mm RT plate. More if you're using Slave implants. You're lucky if you live that long in my opinion. If this is really a boost and not a nerf then please make sure: 1. The Deimos does not lose cap when fitted with an MWD in comparison to it's current incarnation. 2. The Deimos does not lose low slots which it uses to tank 3. The MWD bonus is replaced with something that is universally useful like a resistance bonus. 4. The Deimos doesn't have the cargo capacity to carry a significant number of 800 cap charges ( and I for one wouldn't use any other kind until they nerfed cap boosters ) so adding the ability to fit a cap booster to the ship does not compensate for breaking it in other areas ( low slot, cap, bonus ). ( Constructive? )
wide Gallente Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.08 02:59:00 - [200] Just read the dev blog and thought I'd share these thoughts: 1. The rep bonus is a real waste without any increase in armor resistance or HP. If things get rough, the deimos' best defence is to run away and certainly doesn't have enough armor to tank a sustained attack, especially with reduced resistance that comes with losing a low slot.. 2. an extra mid slot is nice and something that its always needed. However if the new design is for the sake of fitting a cap booster, it is at the expense of its DPS as both the ions/nos or neutron fits won't work. If a deimos hasn't got dps, what is it good for? 3. If, as the dev blog states, the deimos is to be made more useful, go with the recommendation of this thread: 5/4/6, leave the grid and bonus' as they are.
Benglada DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2008.02.08 03:53:00 - [201] Oh where art my epic 1200 wreckings for my deimos? :( :( thats the only reason i flew it, so people ** their pants when i was hitting them for 600+ --------------------------- Originally by:** Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos
Captain Batou Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.08 05:05:00 - [202] After a year and a half of playing this game, with much enthusiasm, and watching the nerf happy devs have their way that this game is, indeed, a stinky pile of donkey Sh!t. That being said: Anyone for a game of Warhammer? "Fck you, Fck you, You're cool, F*ck you...I'm out!!
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2008.02.08 05:08:00 - [203] I like the idea of the Deimos getting a 4th mid slot, but not at the expense of a low slot. The repper bonus is nice, although the problem with HACs is the lack of hit points to allow a repper to run long enough to make a difference in a fight. A battlecruiser has enough hit points to absorb damage and let the repper start to generate a defense (actively), not to mention it has a large enough cap buffer to utilize more systems for a longer period of time. Highs - 5 (turrets) Mids - 4 (increase grid to allow fitting of IONs and injector, make players choose to go more gank or more tank) Lows - 6 Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level (or alternatively 5% to armor hitpoints per level), increase base cap to compensate for the loss of MWD bonus Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level The Deimos needs to have a passive armor bonus as that is more effective then a active one. When you start fitting a repper, MWD and blasters cap usage is huge. A injector will help with the problem, but the capacitor quantity is to small to provide a buffer against all the mods operating and NOS/NUET warfare. The resistance (or hitpoint) bonus acknowledges that blaster boats are in NOS/NUET range running a MWD and using blaster which eat a ton of cap, so if your tank requires you to heavily use a repper you cap out. Not to mention the lack of a hit point buffer to let the repper make any kind of difference.
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.08 05:09:00 - [204] Edited by: Durethia on 08/02/2008 05:09:44 Originally by: Djerin No you just didn't get the point. Deimos was never intended to be tanking anything. HICs on the other hand obviously needed to be tanking really good. No, I understood what you were trying to get at. But new ships are more often released to fill in a role NOT already well done by existing ships. So you're whole philosophy of introduce something new, to justify gimping the old is flawed; it's not the reason for "new". Originally by: Djerin So after HICs have been introduced, why do we need to give a good tank to the Deimos?! There is absolutely no need to do so. And as i explained it doesn't even work properly, more like extremely inefficiently. There is absolutely all the need to tank a Deimos. Who do you think is going to be primary first? The Phobos or the Deimos? You mean you are going to waste your time, trying to kill the Phobos, which can barely break through a wet paper bag, while I'm slapping you silly with my Deimos? HACs are always taking abuse, and the most threatening ones always take the most abuse. The Deimos being the highest DPS HAC in the game is certainly one target best neutralized as soon as possible. And the ENTIRE reason for giving the Deimos a higher base speed, after years of complaining, was because before Trinity, the ship was TOO SLOW to close the distance in time to have a chance at killing a target. For example, no matter how anyone T2 fitted their Deimos in RMR, starting from 35KM away, it will always die to a Munin. Lessening the tank on the Deimos as they apparently have done, including damage output with less low-slots. This complaint will be revisted first day of the patch. Then what? Give the Deimos even more speed? It's not a Vagabond, nor should it be. The damn ship is FINE how it is! ... Besides... "the deimos isn't supposed to tank"? what about any other ship? "the Navy Megathron isn't supposed to tank, why complain if CCP removes 4 low slots on it? It's never supposed to tank becuase of HICs." Well, your rationale kinda sounds HIC'ish.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.08 10:17:00 - [205] 5 4 6 Just do it! ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Druadan Institute of Fungineering	Posted - 2008.02.08 10:56:00 - [206] Is this where our subscription money goes? So you can install massive Wheels of Fortune at CCP HQ? One to decide the ship that gets changed, one to decide the proposed reason, one to decide the attribute(s) that get changed, and a final one to decide what the attribute change is? I think it would be cheaper to just have the devs play the game. -Dru
CDLoon	Posted - 2008.02.08 16:16:00 - [207] 5/4/6 /Signed
Lobo13 Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.08 16:22:00 - [208] I say keep it the way it is or... 5/4/6 my 2 cents. I'm no alt, your an alt, in fact your mom is an alt too!
Hunter Hughes Caldari Multiversal Enterprise Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.08 16:28:00 - [209] well now that it isnt the extreme dmg/ vapor tank ship it used to be... it will definatly be the bait ship of choice for me. Originally by: GinoShin Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.02.08 18:54:00 - [210] bait ship? Bait ships need tank..how can u tank a 4lowslots ship?
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2008.02.08 19:59:00 - [211] hmm interesting so deimos will be even more difficult to fly.. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Dismus Gallente Old Guard Industrialists Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.02.08 20:41:00 - [212] I really can't see the logic in that change. Here's hoping CCP gives their heads a shake and realizes how these things are commonly equipped as-is. No "improvements" are necessary... people that can't fly them properly just need to get the rocks out of their heads. ;) Originally by: Draeca Domi isn't ugly, it actually looks quite symphatic. I mean, a crossbreed of a whale and a potato.. Now how cute is that?
ChalSto Divine Retribution Divine 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.10 23:27:00 - [213] Bump 5/4/6 or kick the responsible dev in the ass, dear community. Another funny thing is, if they do something good (like FIXING the ship after YEARS and PAGES of facts) they tell their names and do alot of chestbeating. But this time u do defintly something WRONG and the community want to know ur name TO KICK UR ASS. Evil will allways triumph, becouse Good is dumb
Arestes GREY COUNCIL Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:36:00 - [214] Please Please, leave the Deimos alone... I am on my knees here. - Arestes Sig removed. Please check source of the image. -Kaemonn ([email protected])
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:24:00 - [215] Must be Have a armor tanking ship with a useless high slot that could use medium so we take away vital low 25% of cap but give it a ACTIVE read CAP intensive bonus as the guiness guys say BRILLIANT Really guys do you fly those things i mean you are the devs you should reallyknow these things not trying to insult but pls if anyone from the dev team posts here with a logical resoning behind this pls change my mind as of now all i have to do is
Jetar Meintam	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:34:00 - [216] After looking at the change proposal and knowing that the deimos is not a solo ship, why would CCP balance this ship to compete in a 1v1 scenario. This destroys a ship that took close to 2 years to get fixed after 50+ pages of facts and posts about a needed change, finally they got it right. The only thing people still requested was a 4th midslot. They didn't ask to lose a low or high, that 4th mid was a request. Take a hint from the community that this ships is just about right, and leave it alone. Otherwise take what these guys are saying to heart and make it 5/4/6. Setup fitting requirements for: 5 Neutron 2's MWD, WEB,scram, Cap booster MAR 2, 2x Hardeners, 3x MFS 2's REQUIRE A POWERGRID RIG TO FIT 5 ION 2's MWD, WEB,scram, Cap booster MAR 2, 2x Hardeners, 3x MFS 2's FIT WITH OUT RIGS Leave the bonuses alone as they follow this shipline properly, or give it 7.5% to 10% per level to the mwd capacitor bonus if you want to increase cap stability.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2008.02.11 06:03:00 - [217] Originally by: ChalSto Dear CCP, would YOU please, for the love of god, employ only Devs, who actually PLAY the game? Kind regards PS: 5/4/6 Made me laugh then i realised that it might be it how about each of us buy a gtc to whoever the genius is that came up with this "boost" and teach him how to fly the dam thing pls
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.11 06:33:00 - [218] OMG! WTF are they drinking? I want some of that stuff! Really how can you **** up a fine shipe like the deimos? Who in the right mind would remove a lowslot? Worst change ever! Its a shame i now get a bonus i can only use 10% of teh time. (If im mad enough and pve with the deimos instead of the ishtar which is almost never). In pvp i just fit my standard passive setup which just got a huge tank nerf. so after this change im left with less cap and less thank! Its not that a deimos is allready paper thin.. one mistake and you are toast.. nerf the friggin nanocrap first -.-
yeahyeahyeah	Posted - 2008.02.11 09:06:00 - [219] Do we get to see any of the dev's logic in why they make ship changes in the first place, some dev blog? Would be nice to see the reasoning behind the changes to the ship, which most people think is fine as it is. 5/4/6 would be a nice change, but 6/4/5 wow
Vehestian Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.11 19:03:00 - [220] please DO NOT DO THIS, I mean, ****, what's the next ship going to be that I've wasted my damn time on? We who are about to lag salut you! 0/
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.11 20:23:00 - [221] bump ccp, don't do this!
Niama Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.02.11 20:46:00 - [222] The Devs responsible for the change on Deimos as a boost truly deserved to be fired for inability to comprehend the the product of the company on its basic level. yes FIRED As in 10 abaddons mass tachyons BBQ showFIRED DEIMOS CHANGE IS ******** OK ?
Thadellix	Posted - 2008.02.12 09:19:00 - [223] Edited by: Thadellix on 12/02/2008 09:20:20 I have to sign on with the 5/4/6 crowd. This is by far the most counter intuitive "improvement" I've ever seen. You've got a totally useless highslot and yet you take a low slot from an armor tanker in the name of giving it more tank!? I sold my deimos the moment I heard this change was happening.
DroneBay Diva Hogosha Ronin	Posted - 2008.02.13 02:52:00 - [224] Diomedes Aeneas > i picture the deimos like unprotected sex, a lot of bang but youre likely gonna get ****** up And this is the way it should be. That is the deimos' 'role'. _____________________________________________________________________________ Proud to be a Nanofag
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2008.02.13 04:25:00 - [225] The only good thing about this change is I'm determined to actually log on and fly my Deimos. No, not after the patch... before it... so I can have some good old balls to the wall Gallente blaster fun before it becomes crappy again. Then I will stuff it in a hanger somewhere far far away so I don't have to look at what it used to be. I had even named my Deimos 'Doesn't Suck Anymore' in honor of the last patch that made it what it should have been... Guess I should have knocked on wood. Originally by: Mangala Solaris EVE really doesnt have set goals, its a freeform sandbox - yes a sandbox with kids that occasionally take a dump in it, but a sandbox never the less.
Mordus Operandi	Posted - 2008.02.13 04:44:00 - [226] wow.. your tweeked beatstick gets changed, far from broken (damn no more suicide setup - i feel for you, not.), and everyone's up in arms. for shame really. if you are going to freak about something, talk about balancing amarr - who dont have drones, 50% damage bonuses, and the most powerful guns in the game. sigh
Jorund Bork Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.02.13 19:13:00 - [227] A bump for this thread cos this topic needs attention... ....and 5/4/6 tbh, or just leave it alone.
Captain Sonata	Posted - 2008.02.13 20:22:00 - [228] 6/4/5 is a nice rebalance, stop with the tears.
Laah T'Sin Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.13 20:47:00 - [229] For the love of god... why change the Deimos??? Did you ever hear anyone whining that the Deimos sucks? Or that they'd like to trade a lowslot for a med cap booster that they can't fit without fitting electrons? I can understand that someone that doesn't play EVE on TQ would think that changing the Deimos the way you're talking about is a good idea... If you only fight on SiSi in 1 VS 1 or fights against low-DPS enemies then you might actually be better off with a repper, injector and electrons. The problem about that "wonderful idea" is that there is nearly no solo or low-DPS situations in reality. Usually you either can kill your target while your buffer tank (plate) lasts or you die. If you fight against a larger number of targets then you rather have 8k armor and no repper then 2k armor and a repper/injector you can't fit anyway so anti-gang is no argument. That also pretty much nullifies the armor rep bonus. All I can hope is that CCP either leave the Deimos alone (no-one asked for you to mess it up in the first place!) or take away a high slot instead of a low slot (though I'd still prefer you ust left it alone). Bad idea... pure and simple.
Trind2222 Amarr Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.13 20:49:00 - [230] Originally by: Captain Sonata 6/4/5 is a nice rebalance, stop with the tears. You have no clue. A.Is a gank ship. You one believe in the myths that it can tank and gank if you believe that think one more time you are probably a noob been killed to many times by a Deimos and can not defend against it gank power. And by the way is fine as it is to day.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 20:49:00 - [231] Originally by: Captain Sonata 6/4/5 is a nice rebalance, stop with the tears. yes I keep hearing this coughjojocough. now I ask you: why it is a nice rebalance? --- planetary interaction idea!
Saiee Do'Arn Nothing Personal Inc	Posted - 2008.02.13 20:55:00 - [232] Originally by: Captain Sonata 6/4/5 is a nice rebalance, stop with the tears. Nothing nice in losing 2/7 dps for extreme close range gank ship (700 => 500 dps). Same as nothing nice in losing 1/4 of surveability if you gonna keep dps inplace (-eanm, -10% of em resistance). Deimos on tranc: 5350armor, 1800+ speed, 700dps. Deimos on test: 2500armor, 66/70 hole in em/exp, 500dps, 1500speed, ability for 100sec to repair 1000armor every 9sec. Are you really think those changes is nice? Deimos need more surveability, right. And with boosted ammar ships and gimped em-armor res - even more. So move 6th hi-slot to 7th low - so we can fit 800mm plate _and_ mar2 at same time? Move 6th hi-slot to med or low. Or just leave ship as-is, eve dont need one more plex-tanking machine - anycase occator do it better...
Laah T'Sin Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.13 20:57:00 - [233] Originally by: Grimpak now I ask you: why it is a nice rebalance? It used to have a slight over-weight at the rear end of the ship. That made it tend to raise it's nose to much during atmospheric flight. Now with the pilots puking so much at the front of the ship, it'ss "balanced" again.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:03:00 - [234] Originally by: Laah T'Sin Originally by: Grimpak now I ask you: why it is a nice rebalance? It used to have a slight over-weight at the rear end of the ship. That made it tend to raise it's nose to much during atmospheric flight. Now with the pilots puking so much at the front of the ship, it'ss "balanced" again. touchT! --- planetary interaction idea!
Gorken Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:05:00 - [235] At least I haven't trained for one yet, and am thankful that I know whats going to happen ahead of time. For those who fly the deimos already, you have my condolences.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.13 21:54:00 - [236] Originally by: Gorken At least I haven't trained for one yet, and am thankful that I know whats going to happen ahead of time. For those who fly the deimos already, you have my condolences. dunno about the rest of them, but I finished amarr cruiser 5 yesterday. --- planetary interaction idea!
Dalmont Caldari HOMELESS. Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:10:00 - [237] So, I train Amarr Cruiser V, just in time to see the curse get nerfed. So, I train for the Deimos, just as I get into the Deimos it gets a 'change'. - Starting to think I should just stick to the Cerb/Ishtar, knock on wood they won't get 'rebalanced' in the near future. If the Deimos is set in stone getting 6/4/5, then at least give us some powergrid so we can take advantage of the tanking bonus! You should not be required to rig a ship to make use of it. /sign for 5/4/6
Lee Thrace Blue.	Posted - 2008.02.13 22:23:00 - [238] well, i tried to read the majority of the posts here before posting myself. I am a pure gallente character and have always had a love/hate relation with the deimos. i had the most fun and success nano-ing it up and going after smaller than me targets the ship is, at the moment, quite useless in most situations i get in nowadays, but that might be because i'm a fittings noob :p with the changes coming, i dont really have a tendency to be using it more... or less. it's still about as useless to me as it was, i reckon what i would like to know is the people that are all saying that this change is good, to explain to me what is so good about this latest change to the deimos? in my opinion i cant really see a deimos repping up in battle, alltho that is just what might change with the new bonus. especially if you put on aux nano pumps on and the sorts just sharing my thoughts...
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:15:00 - [239] Originally by: Lee Thrace well, i tried to read the majority of the posts here before posting myself. I am a pure gallente character and have always had a love/hate relation with the deimos. i had the most fun and success nano-ing it up and going after smaller than me targets the ship is, at the moment, quite useless in most situations i get in nowadays, but that might be because i'm a fittings noob :p with the changes coming, i dont really have a tendency to be using it more... or less. it's still about as useless to me as it was, i reckon what i would like to know is the people that are all saying that this change is good, to explain to me what is so good about this latest change to the deimos? in my opinion i cant really see a deimos repping up in battle, alltho that is just what might change with the new bonus. especially if you put on aux nano pumps on and the sorts just sharing my thoughts... They can't explain it to you. Most of the people who say the change is good haven't even flown the deimos. They are just butt-hurt amarr/caldari that believe that anything anti-gallente is the bees knees (aka awesome) and will do pretty much anything to make it happen. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Sharkk Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:12:00 - [240] GAH. just got back from 2 week on holiday...... Guess what skill i put on to train while I was away....? I deliberated long and hard between Caladri cruiser V and Galente cruiser V and finally settled on Galente cruiser. Primarily because the 4 turret Eagle had the dps of a wrinkled old ******* and my experience's in the Ion-Rax were huge fun (if short lived) "Huginn Food" Now i get back...wadaya know! 5 turret Eagel & and the Demios has an identity crisis...... Typical!
Z3r0n THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:46:00 - [241] Originally by: Spenz They can't explain it to you. Most of the people who say the change is good haven't even flown the deimos. They are just butt-hurt amarr/caldari that believe that anything anti-gallente is the bees knees (aka awesome) and will do pretty much anything to make it happen. I tend to agree.... I have spoken to really many people about this "change" and I haven't met a single Deimos pilot that doesn't think the change is a huge nerf (and defiantly not a boost!) The only time I ever fit an active repper on a Deimos is for lowsec.. and also only if I don't have remote support... it's usually more of an out-of-combat repper so I don't have to dock up to repair... thats the only situation I ever fit Ions (or sometimes even Electrons but that makes me feel weak) and a rep so the new bonus will be valuable to me in about 2% of the time I fly a Deimos. The rest of the time I'd rather have the MWD bonus. Bottom line: you gimped a ship that nobody whined about since you realized it sucked and fixed it a few months ago... but I can really see why you would invest time into nerf-boosting a ship that nobody thinks is over or underpowered... I mean EVE has no other problems that need to be addressed (because the server is really sable, the customer service is a charm and the game is so bug-free) so I can really understand you wasting my money on ***** me over with your idiotic idea of a "boost". I agree with the person that said the Dev who came up with this idea should be fired... or at least moved to the cleaning department where he/she can't do any harm to the game! Epic fail... Maybe it's time for a proper dev to make a statement and let us know if you really plan on nerfing the Deimos to hell and back or if this was just another (huge and dismal) failure by the balancing-department that will be revoked as soon as someone higher up does their job properly and notices the uproar your noob-staff has created? Currently Training:** ePeen Compensation Rank (19)
yeahyeahyeah	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:57:00 - [242] Hope the devs pick up the idear and dont put this through, 5/4/6 or nowt.
Lady Trade	Posted - 2008.02.14 12:43:00 - [243] Edited by: Lady Trade on 14/02/2008 12:44:06 shameless bump Please keep the feedback about the deimos nerf comming. PS. 5/4/6 or nothing.
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:22:00 - [244] Edited by: Durethia on 14/02/2008 17:25:11 Why won't CCP respond to this thread? This Deimos change, along with the EM resistance change is a pile of BS a hundred feet high. We want some kind of formal explanation; I have the manager of Comedy Central on hold! Oh, in Europe, are workers accustomed to being inebriated/euphoric while at work? I'm just trying to rationalize HOW such a decision could have made sense to anyone at any given point in time. I'll be honest with you, if I lived that close to Amsterdam, I'd make fine use of my weekends and holidays, oh fo' sho'! Please, throw us a bone, number to your dealer, a baby, something...
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:32:00 - [245] EM resistance change is welcomed, just dont change the Deimos and everything will be fine.
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.14 18:48:00 - [246] There is hope! Behold! Originally by: CCP Nozh But when someone pointed out how the change effected deimoses in larger gangs we reconsidered. The old deimos is probably already back on SISI, we're also going to seed the other version and allow people to test it vs. the old version. CCP is not oblivious to the anguish of you Deimos pilots out there. __________________________________
Khorian Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.02.14 19:28:00 - [247] Link please ---
Terianna Eri Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.14 21:43:00 - [248] Originally by: Khorian Link please Here you go __________________________________
Elles D Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:09:00 - [249] Cry, cry tears of hate gallente scum But on a serious note, it is a highly 'odd' change to put it mildly. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:15:00 - [250] Originally by: Z3r0n I agree with the person that said the Dev who came up with this idea should be fired... or at least moved to the cleaning department where he/she can't do any harm to the game! dude you dont want to spend your time in the basement with zulusuckpark:)
Krikin The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:31:00 - [251] 5/4/6 _____________________________________________ \\o \o/ o//
Korin Muradrim Setenta Corp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2008.02.14 22:36:00 - [252] If you do change the Deimos to 4 meds and 5 lows (which I'm strongly opposed to), will you also increase its PG so it can actually fit that booster? [Image removed due to legal action by the Church of Scientology.]
Derrios Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.02.15 00:16:00 - [253] Just more changes which put me a step closer to cancelling my accounts. Keep up good work guys.
joshmorris Silver Snake Enterprise SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.15 01:30:00 - [254] Originally by: Derrios Just more changes which put me a step closer to cancelling my accounts. Keep up good work guys. Can i have your stuff ? Wait .. if ur stuff is gallente its prolly bs so nvm. 5/4/6 Or nutin. Uber idea solves all !!
Druadan Institute of Fungineering	Posted - 2008.02.15 10:44:00 - [255] Originally by: Z3r0n Originally by: Spenz They can't explain it to you. Most of the people who say the change is good haven't even flown the deimos. They are just butt-hurt amarr/caldari that believe that anything anti-gallente is the bees knees (aka awesome) and will do pretty much anything to make it happen. I tend to agree.... I have spoken to really many people about this "change" and I haven't met a single Deimos pilot that doesn't think the change is a huge nerf (and defiantly not a boost!) The only time I ever fit an active repper on a Deimos is for lowsec.. and also only if I don't have remote support... it's usually more of an out-of-combat repper so I don't have to dock up to repair... thats the only situation I ever fit Ions (or sometimes even Electrons but that makes me feel weak) and a rep so the new bonus will be valuable to me in about 2% of the time I fly a Deimos. The rest of the time I'd rather have the MWD bonus. Bottom line: you gimped a ship that nobody whined about since you realized it sucked and fixed it a few months ago... but I can really see why you would invest time into nerf-boosting a ship that nobody thinks is over or underpowered... I mean EVE has no other problems that need to be addressed (because the server is really sable, the customer service is a charm and the game is so bug-free) so I can really understand you wasting my money on ***** me over with your idiotic idea of a "boost". I agree with the person that said the Dev who came up with this idea should be fired... or at least moved to the cleaning department where he/she can't do any harm to the game! Epic fail... Maybe it's time for a proper dev to make a statement and let us know if you really plan on nerfing the Deimos to hell and back or if this was just another (huge and dismal) failure by the balancing-department that will be revoked as soon as someone higher up does their job properly and notices the uproar your noob-staff has created? I think that just about sums it up to be honest. That thread linked where Nozh straddles the fence further (We're putting it back but it was a good change... honest) did nothing to improve my estimation of the arrogance that is behind these changes. How the Deimos nerf affected its performance in gangs was only part of what was wrong with it. How the nerf affected the ship in every other aspect was the main part of the problem. -Dru [center]Amarr Cruiser V: check.** - Useless recons: check. Gallente Carrier: check. - [i]Logistics capability stripped: check. Gallente Cruiser V: check.[/b] - [i]Nerfed Re
el toppolino Caldari Fury Corporation INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.02.15 12:14:00 - [256] i blame the global warming for that change...must be hard to be in iceland Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) Fury Website
L33t Sphere	Posted - 2008.02.22 15:46:00 - [257] Edited by: L33t Sphere on 22/02/2008 15:47:25 Bump and signed. Leave the deimos alone or drop the extra highslot. Especially since the utility high of the zealot is nonexistent now, it's only fair that the other damagebased HAC doesn't have one. Give us a mid from that high. Your only other choice to keep us competitive is to drop the utility high for a low, but that'd turn it into a shorter ranged, higher dps Zealot. If you move that lowslot then there's not a single reason to use it over a Ishtar. (Could also give us a 6th turret and cpu+pg to fit it. I think that'd be pretty cool and not terribly overpowered, but others might disagree :D)
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:01:00 - [258] Ranting again. Removing a low is also removing versatility. Adding a rep specific bonus removes versatility, sponsors a specific setup to be used. With the rep bonus it becomes more of the same compared to other ships (brutix, phobos ...) Less versatility and more of the same is no fun.
atiJ sdrawkcaB	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:04:00 - [259] Originally by: L33t Sphere Edited by: L33t Sphere on 22/02/2008 15:47:25 Bump and signed. Leave the deimos alone or drop the extra highslot. Especially since the utility high of the zealot is nonexistent now, it's only fair that the other damagebased HAC doesn't have one. Give us a mid from that high. Your only other choice to keep us competitive is to drop the utility high for a low, but that'd turn it into a shorter ranged, higher dps Zealot. If you move that lowslot then there's not a single reason to use it over a Ishtar. (Could also give us a 6th turret and cpu+pg to fit it. I think that'd be pretty cool and not terribly overpowered, but others might disagree :D) 6th turret would put the Deimos in the 1000 dps ballpark. While I'm not opposed to this, I seriously doubt that they will ever let a HAC put out that much damage. 5/4/6 is good, 5/3/7 is unlikely , 6 turrets/3/6 is not gonna happen in our lifetime.
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.02.24 14:14:00 - [260] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Xequecal The Deimos has 1625 base capacitor now. You got your MWD cap bonus FOR FREE, WITHOUT even having to fit a MWD. You get a free bonus and you're whining about it. Typical Gallente. no I don't. I still have less cap than I have now (1719) BASE capacitor. That's BEFORE Engineering. The Deimos' current base cap is 1375. God damn. Get a clue! It's a blaster boat. MWD is necessity. It's a nerf! ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.02.24 15:20:00 - [261] yep, 5/4/6 or nothing. And don't mess with the mwd bonus.
Antodias North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.24 15:24:00 - [262] Originally by: Z3r0n I tend to agree.... I have spoken to really many people about this "change" and I haven't met a single Deimos pilot that doesn't think the change is a huge nerf (and defiantly not a boost!) Well, I don't think it's a boost, I think it's roles have changed. For the better or worse, well I think you've already decided that in your own mind. What I said in another thread: Quote: Well I've done a lot of testing on SiSi, and the Deimos is not worse, it's had its role changed. From being a do-or-die mini-gankthron, its not become more of a slow-burning tank ship. This means: (a) It will be much better for solo/small gang work in lowsec. but (b) It serves no real purpose in 0.0 or medium to large gangs. Basically in order to use it effectively you need 1 rep (thus removing its pure gank ability) but I personally think 2 is much better. This gives you a maximum damage potential of ions with no magstabs, and even that needs ancillary rigs. It's active tank is now incredible, but pretty mediocre damage. In summary, if this change is put through, I'll definatly use it for low sec solo or small gang work and I intend to make some fraps (some fights on sisi were epic). But for 0.0 work, stick with the Ishtar. And yes I have flown the Deimos. A lot.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.24 16:00:00 - [263] Originally by: Antodias Edited by: Antodias on 24/02/2008 15:26:04 Originally by: Z3r0n I tend to agree.... I have spoken to really many people about this "change" and I haven't met a single Deimos pilot that doesn't think the change is a huge nerf (and defiantly not a boost!) Well, I don't think it's a boost, I think it's roles have changed. For the better or worse, well I think you've already decided that in your own mind. What I said in another thread: Quote: Well I've done a lot of testing on SiSi, and the Deimos is not worse, it's had its role changed. From being a do-or-die mini-gankthron, its not become more of a slow-burning tank ship. This means: (a) It will be much better for solo/small gang work in lowsec. but (b) It serves no real purpose in 0.0 or medium to large gangs. Basically in order to use it effectively you need 1 rep (thus removing its pure gank ability) but I personally think 2 is much better. This gives you a maximum damage potential of ions with no magstabs, and even that needs ancillary rigs. It's active tank is now incredible, but pretty mediocre damage. In summary, if this change is put through, I'll definatly use it for low sec solo or small gang work and I intend to make some fraps (some fights on sisi were epic). But for 0.0 work, stick with the Ishtar. And yes I have flown the Deimos. A lot. EDIT: I will agree however, that there are now very few setups which seem to work well. actually in the kind of gang work I usually operate (10-man gangs and so) the deimos can work well. you just need to warp in a wee bit after the rest and not being rash. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Antodias North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.24 16:05:00 - [264] Originally by: Grimpak actually in the kind of gang work I usually operate (10-man gangs and so) the deimos can work well. you just need to warp in a wee bit after the rest and not being rash. With the new setup? I'm assuming you're still using a ganksetup? With the neutron & ion w/magstabs, it really hasnt performed well since I can't get a decent buffer tank. I'll be happy to be proved wrong though. If you can get a good gang setup with decent damage I'd certainly want to try it.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.24 16:11:00 - [265] Edited by: Grimpak on 24/02/2008 16:12:07 Originally by: Antodias Originally by: Grimpak actually in the kind of gang work I usually operate (10-man gangs and so) the deimos can work well. you just need to warp in a wee bit after the rest and not being rash. With the new setup? I'm assuming you're still using a ganksetup? With the neutron & ion w/magstabs, it really hasnt performed well since I can't get a decent buffer tank. I'll be happy to be proved wrong though. If you can get a good gang setup with decent damage I'd certainly want to try it. no, the old neutron 3 MFS + SAR II + DCU + expl hardener + 2 trimarks. the new setup will pretty much be meh, since the ship will lose it's role and there will be more ganky ships out there (the new zealot in gank mode will actually beat the new deimos) --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Ares Helix Gallente NunyaBizzness Phobos Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.26 10:50:00 - [266] 5/4/6 /signed. Tankin in a mos is all good, and tbh, a tank plus its damage is acceptable. Thing is, if you do, you're often left with a hole for explosive damage to get through and cut back dps... Now I can see that their tryin to make it more either or with the change of things, but again, I have to agree, ain't broke, don't fix... To my knowlege the Deimos has had more nerfs than most other ships, seems every year they try to make it sumin different. Which begs the question: why fiddle if you changed it last time? Sigh, guess I'll drop off the stab, but tbh, it's dps will blow if I do. Maybe instead of tryin to mess with people's ships the can do sumin to fix the suicide gank fest that high sec is fast becoming?
Magazaki	Posted - 2008.02.26 11:44:00 - [267] Edited by: Magazaki on 26/02/2008 11:46:43 5/4/6... Can we make it 5/6/4 for the eagle as well? A 5/5/4 for the Moa? While we're at it, can we also move the harpy's and all the rest useless utility highslots to mids/lows? Everybody, and I mean everybody that knows right from left would prefer to have mids or lows instead of utility highslots. I don't know why they're there if noone wants them, but they are there for most ships, so I'd say get over it and propose a different change. If something like this happens to the deimos, I can guarrantee at least 3 forums (S&M -that's ships and modules you pervert, not the other kind of S&M- Game Developement and Features and Ideas) filling up with "Move the useless highslot from XXX ship to a mid/low slot". Make no mistake, I am neither for nor against the deimos change. Whatever suits you. Or even some different change. But this "make 6/3/6 to 5/4/6" proposal is a little, well, overpowered... Not to say unfair. -----sig----- Originally by: Kaemonn:Signature Originally by: kieron: off duty You dont have to swallow! Win...
Miranda Ceres	Posted - 2008.02.26 11:52:00 - [268] 6/3/6 with an extra turret hardpoint pls x
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.26 14:32:00 - [269] So much fail in this thread. This reminds me of all the people saying that torps got nerfed. WTS: Clue. /makes fart noise
Phil Miller Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.26 16:05:00 - [270] Nos + extra mid = Deimos that doesn't die after 1 minute. 6/5/4 = win. ______________________________________
Veng3ance Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.02.26 16:12:00 - [271] Because I haven't complained about this yet. And meant to! Taking a low-slot away from a gank ship to add a mid slot WHAT THE ****. Terrible change.
Fenderson Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.02.26 18:06:00 - [272] Originally by: Phil Miller Nos + extra mid = Deimos that doesn't die after 1 minute. 6/5/4 = win. its supposed to be a GANK ship. you cannot fit gank-worthy guns along with med nos, active armor tank, and cap booster. DO YOU PLAY POKER???? Join ingame channels "DOA Poker" and "Eve Online Hold'em"
Loba Sorrateira	Posted - 2008.02.26 18:56:00 - [273] Nos+extra mid-low slot=Deimos that don't kill in less than 1 minute... It is really simple: To rely on active repping during a fight, the fight need to last long enough for the active rep to surpass a reasonable good armor plate HPs. A Gank ship should be trying to minimize the fight duration, so giving it a freaking repping bonus is counter productive. Since the repping bonus is the reason for the cap injector requirement, and that is the reason for the med slot, it all started wrong, so no matter if the result is a reasonably good ship, it is not a Deimos anymore, or at least, not what it was supposed to be... Loba
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.02.26 18:56:00 - [274] Originally by: Magazaki Edited by: Magazaki on 26/02/2008 11:48:02 5/4/6... Can we make it 5/6/4 for the eagle as well? A 5/5/4 for the Moa? While we're at it, can we also move the harpy's and all the rest useless utility highslots to mids/lows? At least 9/10 (10/10 with the nos nerf?) people who pvp would prefer to have mids or lows instead of utility highslots. I don't know why they're there if noone wants them, but they are there for most ships, so I'd say get over it and propose a different change. If something like this happens to the deimos, I can guarrantee at least 3 forums (S&M -that's ships and modules you pervert, not the other kind of S&M- Game Developement and Features and Ideas) filling up with "Move the useless highslot from XXX ship to a mid/low slot". Make no mistake, I am neither for nor against the deimos change. Whatever suits you. Or even some different change. But this "make 6/3/6 to 5/4/6" proposal is a little, well, overpowered... Not to say unfair. Exactly what I've been thinking since I've been following this thread. The Deimos isn't the only ship in game with a utility high slot than pilots would rather have as a tank/gank slot (look at the Caldari Hybrid ships for example). If you move that to the mid slot, you would STILL have a ship that's tops in ganking - but now has a solid tank - where's the balance tradeoff? I say keep it as a glass cannon. As for this proposed changes I don't have an opinion since I don't fly one myself. I know I'd be annoyed if I spent 2 months training for a ship and its tactical options were radically altered. I'm probably talking out my ass here, but I'd see with this change a ship that uses a cap injector to run a small tank, AND perhaps a neut to kill their target's active tank faster? The role of this ship is to get in your face and beat on your tank with high DPS, a neut may help break an active tank even faster. Just saying maybe tactics on this ship might change - but if you're asking to lose your utility slot to maintain your current gank and a superior tank you're asking for an unbalanced ship. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Antodias North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.26 19:03:00 - [275] Yeah guys it's either 6/3/6 with old bonuses or 6/4/5 with the new. An extra mid while retaining a low slot is too much.

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