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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.04.23 18:34:00 -
[781]
 Originally by: Trent Nichols
The best I can think of then would be for CCP to make the log server limited access with password distribution partially randomized so most hardware/software configurations are covered.
Something needs to be done at any rate. While Bacon looks ripe for exploiting, (someone mentioned a cloaked alt?) that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the thought of full macro programs using the log server.
private key encryption is hackable because the client source is decompilable. so that fails.
public key encryption is fine until the first bunch of goons hacks simply because it's there. give it a few weeks. so that fails.
you could get rid of logs, but then you don't have a debugging tools for actual hardcore system crashes. still, that's an option... but the medicine might be worse than the disease
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Tek'Matay
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:04:00 -
[782]
Personally, I like the idea behind bacon, as far as the audio warnings supplimenting the visual ones provided by the local window.
Regardless of what local was origionally designed for, it has become an intelligence tool for almost as long as it has been around. At the same time, EVE's interface is a hugely overloaded visual nightmare. I consider the audio warnings, just similar to the audio warnings that someone is locking on to your ship. You still have to go look at your overview and see what, how many, ect.
Heck, I'd like to be able to add optional audio clues to lots of things on the interface. Like onto chat windows I don't normally look at, in addition to blinking for new messages, EW notifications, ect. Yes the new EW notifications are nice, but they're just more visual clues, to contend with. I dunno why the creators of advanced space ships gave up on audio, which is used in every military aircraft as warning indicators in the world today.
As long as local can be used like an early warning radar, then adding audio warnings to go with it seems like a logical progression to me.
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Mezikk
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:15:00 -
[783]
Surely you can all see this app just highlights the problem with local...
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:19:00 -
[784]
Ok after reeading 6 pages of this I just have to say something in my own form (tho its already said but its important for me to emphasize this in order to show how ****ed off I am about all this meat slice nonsense)
On with the show
Ok BACON yes I installed and analyzed it (so i know what im talking about) and yes i uninstalled it because its an exploit a cheat a piece of code with no good intent.
Hokay
Voicecomms can NOOOOT (Borat) be compared to Bacon. Humans are known to error and it takes time and resources to actually monitor gates space or what not.
Bacon on the other hand does this automatically so if its set up nicely it can even pronounce the names of the targets hostiles etc. I havent analyzed the logs that thoroughly but Im interested in what kind of info does the client receive when you jump in to a system apart that you are in what else? Shiptype velocity fitting??! Where does it end? Do you want some stupid program to just spell it out for you? Even call you Sir maybe pump up your ego a bit, hell make it with a hotline voice thatll get things running.
It just doesnt work guys. I wish CCP said NO, detectable or not they better threaten the people and get rid of the whole client side logserv routine.
There is upsides to Bacon yes you get advantage but whats next macro miners developing chat bots according to logs pretending they are AT the keyboard instead of AWAY from it ?!
CCP I recommend buying a truckload of BANana'z and start handing them out. Because this Bacon bussiness wont be good for anybody.
Kisses and hugs to all hardworking oldschool reasonable pilots
Lin Haraka supports you!
EDIT: Ki An 4 El Prezidente
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Commoner
Caldari
Emergent Chaos
Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:37:00 -
[785]
Edited by: Commoner on 23/04/2008 19:37:43
Originally by: Maliber
Originally by: RebelWithACause
4) {snip}
Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Originally by: Maliber
{snip}
While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
You are defining BACON as an exploit. CCP has not. Therefore, it's not. They don't like it (their words), but they have not defined it as an exploit, hack, or macro. Therefore, it is not. See point #1 in my post concerning this.
My point was that as you see fit to apply the security through obscurity argument. It seemed logical to me to call it a "exploit/security hole". As you can see its between quotation marks signalling unusual use of the words. I added these because there is no consensus about it being a "exploit/security hole". You can call it unintended use, a bug or well whatever. Its fine if you disagree on this point with me, but then its improper to use the security through obscurity argument.
Originally by: RebelWithACause
You state that it "automate(s) a(n) action" requiring "requiring LESS mental effort". I actually strongly disgaree here. In fact, if you had actually USED the software, you will find that it takes MORE mental work, since now you have to pay attention to both visual clues (ships entering your grid, rats, gate fire, etc) AND aural clues (BACON notification).
Hmmm i'm not sure I understand you correctly here surely you don't mean to say that with BACON you don't need 2 persons but can do both with 1? (1 for scouting and 1 ratting vs 1 ratting and paying attention to bacon)
If you mean that now there is more sensory input due to the added sound instead of just visual information. Then I must disagree as this visual information is in a seperate window and isn't filtered for you.
You cannot use BACON as a scout to an adjacent system, BACON does the same as local chat, only by representing that information as audio. Hearing is not "automatic" in any more sense than seeing is. Put on some earplugs, or listen to music and BACON becomes unusable.
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
The worst pvp'er in EVE :
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP
Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 20:02:00 -
[786]
Originally by: Commoner
You cannot use BACON as a scout to an adjacent system, BACON does the same as local chat, only by representing that information as audio. Hearing is not "automatic" in any more sense than seeing is. Put on some earplugs, or listen to music and BACON becomes unusable.
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
But looking at local requires some effort.
Hearing a sound warning you doesn't. Thus using BACON requires LESS mental effort!
It's even advertised as such: "Never Be Surprised Again"
Why do you try to convince everyone including me it doesnt make things easier?
Or that it doesn't change anything?
If it was this useless it would never have been written. Right?
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Enraged Stoat
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Posted - 2008.04.23 20:08:00 -
[787]
Edited by: Enraged Stoat on 23/04/2008 20:10:47
Originally by: Commoner
Edited by: Commoner on 23/04/2008 19:37:43
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
For a single player, yes it's little more than automating looking through local. For multiple players with multiple cloaked alts in multiple systems - and BACON logging to a central log server (easily doable if you can code even though they removed the feature from the compiled release) then you have instant intel on as many systems as you can put alts in. That's more than an automation of looking through local, it provides realtime data on multiple systems. "Oh look, 100 hostiles 10 jumps out... 9 jumps out... 8 jumps out... 7 jumps out... they're definitely heading this way time to tool up... 6 jumps out..." etc. Any hope of suprise destroyed. All seeing all knowing intel without a human having to be 'scouting'.
Makes it somewhat unfair against the player(s) who does not have access to those resources.
Personally I would like to see something that offers bacon-like functionality available in game because it just 'makes sense'....
1. We can build spaceships the size of cities.
2. We can send information across the universe instantly (I can see new contracts for me on the other side of the universe as soon as they appear).
3. We know if someone is hostile/neutral/friendly.
But there's no piece of technology available to monitor an area of space/stargate and report the comings/goings/standings of people traversing it centrally for commanders to have intel over their territory much like BACON provides (in networked mode)? Fail.
If one path in Eve is about building empires (what else are alliances for?) then you need the tools to monitor and protect said empire. That's tools, not people. Border control cannot rely on having a human in every border system, that's ridiculous.
It could be a more advanced form of scouting with appropriate skills and items needed to use. New probe type that monitors a gate or grid and reports on traffic movements. Local could be ditched, but those with the 'need' to protect 'their' space would get intel via probes, so it's incumbent on them to keep them going.
Remove local by all means, but only if there is some way of replacing the invaluable intel it delivers. Makes more sense that only those with an interest in intel would deploy and maintain the equipment needed to gather it. Every nation on Earth already monitors it's borders and controls traffic through them, albeit with varying degrees of efficiency. Having technology to do that in the Eve universe would keep the balance if local gets removed.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.23 20:38:00 -
[788]
BACON lovers, the counter we'll have to use is alts with warp scrams who can hold you just long for our mains to arrive before we get CONCORDed.
Is that what you want to cry about next?
Will that be your Next Big Thread?
Stay tuned. |
Commoner
Caldari
Emergent Chaos
Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.23 21:46:00 -
[789]
Originally by: Enraged Stoat
Edited by: Enraged Stoat on 23/04/2008 20:10:47
Originally by: Commoner
Edited by: Commoner on 23/04/2008 19:37:43
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
For a single player, yes it's little more than automating looking through local. For multiple players with multiple cloaked alts in multiple systems - and BACON logging to a central log server (easily doable if you can code even though they removed the feature from the compiled release) then you have instant intel on as many systems as you can put alts in. That's more than an automation of looking through local, it provides realtime data on multiple systems. "Oh look, 100 hostiles 10 jumps out... 9 jumps out... 8 jumps out... 7 jumps out... they're definitely heading this way time to tool up... 6 jumps out..." etc. Any hope of suprise destroyed. All seeing all knowing intel without a human having to be 'scouting'.
Makes it somewhat unfair against the player(s) who does not have access to those resources.
Personally I would like to see something that offers bacon-like functionality available in game because it just 'makes sense'....
1. We can build spaceships the size of cities.
2. We can send information across the universe instantly (I can see new contracts for me on the other side of the universe as soon as they appear).
3. We know if someone is hostile/neutral/friendly.
But there's no piece of technology available to monitor an area of space/stargate and report the comings/goings/standings of people traversing it centrally for commanders to have intel over their territory much like BACON provides (in networked mode)? Fail.
If one path in Eve is about building empires (what else are alliances for?) then you need the tools to monitor and protect said empire. That's tools, not people. Border control cannot rely on having a human in every border system, that's ridiculous.
It could be a more advanced form of scouting with appropriate skills and items needed to use. New probe type that monitors a gate or grid and reports on traffic movements. Local could be ditched, but those with the 'need' to protect 'their' space would get intel via probes, so it's incumbent on them to keep them going.
Remove local by all means, but only if there is some way of replacing the invaluable intel it delivers. Makes more sense that only those with an interest in intel would deploy and maintain the equipment needed to gather it. Every nation on Earth already monitors it's borders and controls traffic through them, albeit with varying degrees of efficiency. Having technology to do that in the Eve universe would keep the balance if local gets removed.
Thanks for the reply 
Never really thought about the use of mutiple alts and BACON, i guesss it's an old habit because i don't have an alt.
In that specific scenario, yeah you could be right as it's difficult to focus on more than one screen at a time, but rather easy to look in local and listen to beeps of incomming forces from your other clients.
Agree with you on local issues, a vocal "sonarsound" instead of local, would be much more immersive.
The worst pvp'er in EVE :
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Lanu
Caldari
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.23 21:49:00 -
[790]
Just tried this out. Its a superb tool really, I just really really hate it being legal. Its insane.
Local is overpowered right now. With this tool you don't even have to watch your screen to know when you should unplug your network cable to save your ship. Really hope CCP changes their opinion about this tool in the future.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 21:59:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Lanu
Just tried this out. Its a superb tool really, I just really really hate it being legal. Its insane.
Local is overpowered right now. With this tool you don't even have to watch your screen to know when you should unplug your network cable to save your ship. Really hope CCP changes their opinion about this tool in the future.
If you're waiting for them to ban this tool, don't hold your breath. They can't ban it as they can't detect it. CCP has also requested that people don't use it. Of course, the failures of Eve will anyway, but the main point is that CCP are fixing this problem.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:01:00 -
[792]
Originally by: Lanu
Just tried this out. Its a superb tool really, I just really really hate it being legal. Its insane.
Local is overpowered right now. With this tool you don't even have to watch your screen to know when you should unplug your network cable to save your ship. Really hope CCP changes their opinion about this tool in the future.
Excuse me but they must not at all costs. Although its cool uber all that plus a bag of space chips it must not happen. You dont need to watch N(umber of alts) screens to get all the info they already have the central server all they need is a "master console" of some sort and voila. i think every single alliance would chip in for cloaked alts all over their teritory. Its just insance.
And pilots for the love of Quafe Chribba and all thats sacred say NO to Bacon
:::End Transmission:::
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Lanu
Caldari
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:08:00 -
[793]
Edited by: Lanu on 23/04/2008 22:10:37
Originally by: Ki An
If you're waiting for them to ban this tool, don't hold your breath. They can't ban it as they can't detect it. CCP has also requested that people don't use it. Of course, the failures of Eve will anyway, but the main point is that CCP are fixing this problem.
I know chances are big they wont ever 'ban' this. And even if they did it, it would be nearly impossible to enforce it.
As a pirate I just can't stand people from logging when I enter scanner (or worse local). In the future will it be like :
*sirens* *ms sam* there is another player within 50 au please unplug your network cable to save your ship */ms sam* */sirens* ?
The 50 au example is just sarcasm but truth is that its really hard to NOT notice somebody entering local with this tool. And that really helps the npc'ers and it quite a big problem for most pirates. |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:11:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Lanu
I know chances are big they wont ever 'ban' this. And even if they would it would be nearly impossible to enforce it.
As a pirate I just can't stand people from logging when I enter scanner (or worse local). In the future will it be like :
*sirens* *ms sam* there is another player within 50 au please unplug your network cable to save your ship */ms sam* */sirens* ?
The 50 au example is just sarcasm but truth is that its really hard to NOT notice somebody entering local with this tool. And that really helps the npc'ers and it quite a big problem for most pirates.
Gonna quote myself from a thread on another forum:
Originally by: Ki An
It's really hard to be a lion hunting anthelope with a huge ******* bell around your neck
Don't worry though. The flak CCP is going to endure if they don't fix this very soon will be enormous.
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:16:00 -
[795]
Originally by: Lanu
Edited by: Lanu on 23/04/2008 22:10:37
Originally by: Ki An
If you're waiting for them to ban this tool, don't hold your breath. They can't ban it as they can't detect it. CCP has also requested that people don't use it. Of course, the failures of Eve will anyway, but the main point is that CCP are fixing this problem.
I know chances are big they wont ever 'ban' this. And even if they did it, it would be nearly impossible to enforce it.
As a pirate I just can't stand people from logging when I enter scanner (or worse local). In the future will it be like :
*sirens* *ms sam* there is another player within 50 au please unplug your network cable to save your ship */ms sam* */sirens* ?
The 50 au example is just sarcasm but truth is that its really hard to NOT notice somebody entering local with this tool. And that really helps the npc'ers and it quite a big problem for most pirates.
Works both ways ;) thats the nasty part. Having a program chew and spit out all the needed info != fun |
Imax Vespertilio
Caldari
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:18:00 -
[796]
I'm a miner, and I could totally benefit from this 3rd part program, however I too think its to un sportsmanlike. I sympathize with the very people would kill me on this topic. BACON is ********, if everyone used it PVP would have absolutely NO surprise element left. There would be no such thing as an ambush anymore.
BAN BACON! |
Aurix Lexico
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.24 00:18:00 -
[797]
Originally by: Elise Randolph
Originally by: Aurix Lexico
hey Elise, what's up?
Haaay Aurix. Sorry it took me 12 pages to respond. How's it goin'?
good, good. Doing empire war decs, I imagine you are doing the same? Almost have the skills for my nidhoggur now too. What have you been up to?
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Or'Chan
Minmatar
Blue.
Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.24 02:57:00 -
[798]
The problem isn't Bacon, the problem is local. Once that gets nerfed, everything will be fine.
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Alty MacAlterson
Alt Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.24 03:03:00 -
[799]
Nerf bacon. Ham needs to win the fight.
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Sol Greensmoker
Seventh Circle
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Posted - 2008.04.24 03:09:00 -
[800]
 BACON
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Shin Dahn
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Posted - 2008.04.24 04:24:00 -
[801]
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr
Remove BACON
Remove Local
Constellation is local enough. 
Agreed
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PwnzDeLeOwnz
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.24 06:06:00 -
[802]
Must post in epic thread one last time....
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP
Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 08:22:00 -
[803]
I think its sad that ppl try to derail this thread just so the topic dies.
Its a important topic an should be discussed |
Svekke
Minmatar
Frequent Flyers
Tartarus Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.24 08:29:00 -
[804]
Can't ccp just disable caching who joins what chanal and just cache it when someone says something? I mean what's the use of caching who joins a chanal anyway? |
Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:14:00 -
[805]
BACON
At heart this breaks the spirit / intent of EVE online as a multi-*player* game; you aren't playing if you aren't watching. BACON does't offer anything to the player who is actively ingame; all the information this available via local and a decent overview setup. One could almost argue that CCP should include something similar as part of the game under disability anti-discrimination requirements for those players who do not have perfect eyesight and need auditory assistance (eg. we can see when our warp drive is active, but we get the voice anyway).
Does it create unbalance between pilots using BACON and those not using it? Yes, if they aren't actively involved in the game, but otherwise not so much. Does BACON benefit the macro farmers and those who set out to abuse EVE? Yes, and if they hadn't written such a program before they sure know about it now and could invent new uses for the idea. At corp and alliance level though, integrating the data from multiple pilots and alts, it clearly advantages the BACON-using side who can create a real-time map of traffic in as many systems as they have alts.
Is it, or should it be, illegal? So far the TOS appears to not be broken but, more to the point, because it accesses local client files, it would be very difficult for CCP or anyone else to prove that there hasbeen unauthorised use of the logfiles. Unless you remove some elements of the logging process, or recode the whole logfile subsystem to encrypt its output, then any external program using that data cannot be stopped. But even that would probably not be sufficient as there are many tech geeks around. Something that made it impossible to run the local logserver without each-time permission from CCP is impracticable and, now the cat is out the bag, one could probably write some Wireshark code to 'watch' the EVE data anyway.
As regards nerfing local, that would just play into the hands of users of BACON and similar programs, giving them a massive advantage over the pilot who actually plays the game in the way that CCP intended. BACON doesn't read 'local', it uses the whole stream of data required by the client, and while there are some arguments to change how local works BACON isn't one of them.
Personally, the level of automation I currently find acceptable ingame is the autopilot. And I don't use that. Tools like BACON, Beetracker, and the rest, using the logfiles for other than their intended purpose are exploits. They can't be stopped by not accepting they exist nor could you say they contravene the TOS without a way to prove that they are actually in use. To stop them requires a change of the logfile format. These tools break the heart of the reason for EVE and produce inequality between pilots and I would support the removal of their ability to continue to work.
IZ
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:44:00 -
[806]
I ****ing swear... are people actually playing this game, or do the just eat dinner and watch tv while logged in?
What happened to the person on the other side of the computer? CCP puts in and clearly agrees that sitting in front of your Eve monitor is not a required task to play Eve. Let the Eve universe behave as it would when you LOG OFF... but these afk tactics without doing a damn things are a huge flaw, and a pathetic design.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:47:00 -
[807]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
110% pure distilled win.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:53:00 -
[808]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP
Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 12:01:00 -
[809]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
To make it bannable, it should be detectable. That is the problem atm.
But on the bright side they are working on it.
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Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 12:12:00 -
[810]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
To make something bannable requires being able to (a) find that it is in use, and (b) prove that it was in use. As things stand there is no way whatsoever for the EVE client to see what other programs are running on your computer (and everyone would scream invasion of privacy if it could!) nor see if anything else is accessing a text file on your machine (ditto).
A blocking mechanism is required first, and that has to be part of what CCP controls - the EVE client and the logserver program.
IZ
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