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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Pipa Porto
643
   |
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:07:00 -
[2911] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:And that's true of the current Hulk. Ganking Hulks is unprofitable unless the Hulk pilot fails to tank their ship (the 0 MLU brick is a counter to the "gankers have infinite time and alts, so they'll bring Meta Catalysts". A much weaker tank will dissuade the vast majority of ganks in a .5 system.). In higher sec bands, Hulk pilots can tank their ship sturdily enough to be unprofitable and still fit MLUs. What more do you want?
Just because a lot of miners put themselves in the position of the Dodo (credulous and trusting of the sailors, leading to easy hunting and extinction) doesn't mean there's a problem To be fair I don't believe that a ship should be profitable to suicide gank solely for its salvage (even T2 fit) regardless of how poorly fit it is. Now, if it's a Hulk with those half-bil MLUs, that's a different story :v
Most T2 Cruisers with the same tank that most Hulk pilots fly with (i.e. none) are profitable to suicide gank solely for their salvage.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2330
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:10:00 -
[2912] - Quote
As has been mentioned before, greed and sloth greatly diminish one's survival instinct.
This will not change.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Pipa Porto
643
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:10:00 -
[2913] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I quite agree with most of that. However CCP in it's infinite wisdom has made it much easier to tell at a glance who the stupid and greedy miners are compared to the intelligent and prudent ones.
Just look for the hulk pilots in busy high sec systems and I have little doubt you will continue to find plentiful poorly fit, profitable targets.
And tbh, I'm fine with the idea behind Barge re-balance (get moar viable ships). Atm, the problem with it is that the Mackinaw can get over the magical safety number and still do everything better than the Skiff, rendering the Skiff mostly (well, entirely) useless.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:11:00 -
[2914] - Quote
People will still figure out a way to fit their Mackinaws without a single tank mod beyond "permatank the serpentis spy in the belt" and they'll still die to a few Catalysts. This will not change.
EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Pipa Porto
643
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:15:00 -
[2915] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Yet we've seen a number of ganks in .5's with partially tanked, non expanded hulks as well. Not the majority I'm sure but they have and still are happening.
Yep. Being less profitable to gank than your neighbor is no guarantee of safety. It does make it less likely though ("Not the majority").
Being unprofitable to gank, is also not a guarantee of safety. It does make getting ganked really unlikely though,
Being aligned and awake at the keyboard is a guarantee of safety (except to Jorma's magical 2km/s cloaked bump ship). It does make mining slightly less convenient though (with some fitting choices and planning, you can mitigate this inconvenience).
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2330
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:16:00 -
[2916] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I quite agree with most of that. However CCP in it's infinite wisdom has made it much easier to tell at a glance who the stupid and greedy miners are compared to the intelligent and prudent ones.
Just look for the hulk pilots in busy high sec systems and I have little doubt you will continue to find plentiful poorly fit, profitable targets. And tbh, I'm fine with the idea behind Barge re-balance (get moar viable ships). Atm, the problem with it is that the Mackinaw can get over the magical safety number and still do everything better than the Skiff, rendering the Skiff mostly (well, entirely) useless.
I could be mistaken, but I think you are assuming a sensible fit... which for your average AFK miner is not all that likely... to be honest.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Pipa Porto
643
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:21:00 -
[2917] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:People will still figure out a way to fit their Mackinaws without a single tank mod beyond "permatank the serpentis spy in the belt" and they'll still die to a few Catalysts. This will not change.
People fly Megas that get killed by Itty Vs. Does that mean CCP should balance the Mega around them?
I'm sure there were some Titan Pilots that didn't understand how to remote AOE DD. Did that mean that was balanced because the least skillful pilot couldn't do it?
Ship Balancing shouldn't be based on what the least skillful player can come up with.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:33:00 -
[2918] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:People will still figure out a way to fit their Mackinaws without a single tank mod beyond "permatank the serpentis spy in the belt" and they'll still die to a few Catalysts. This will not change. Ranger 1 wrote:I could be mistaken, but I think you are assuming a sensible fit... which for your average AFK miner is not all that likely... to be honest People fly Megas that get killed by Itty Vs. Does that mean CCP should balance the Mega around them? I'm sure there were some Titan Pilots that didn't understand how to remote AOE DD. Did that mean that was balanced because the least skillful pilot couldn't do it? Ship Balancing shouldn't be based on what the least skillful player can come up with.
If I recall the story behind that kill I'm not sure how it compares to a suicide gank as that was a consensual fight (the Mega engaged the Itty V for stealing loot). If it were a gank situation then the Itty V would have failed despite the fitting of the Mega. |
Pipa Porto
644
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:37:00 -
[2919] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:People will still figure out a way to fit their Mackinaws without a single tank mod beyond "permatank the serpentis spy in the belt" and they'll still die to a few Catalysts. This will not change. Ranger 1 wrote:I could be mistaken, but I think you are assuming a sensible fit... which for your average AFK miner is not all that likely... to be honest People fly Megas that get killed by Itty Vs. Does that mean CCP should balance the Mega around them? I'm sure there were some Titan Pilots that didn't understand how to remote AOE DD. Did that mean that was balanced because the least skillful pilot couldn't do it? Ship Balancing shouldn't be based on what the least skillful player can come up with. If I recall the story behind that kill I'm not sure how it compares to a suicide gank as that was a consensual fight (the Mega engaged the Itty V for stealing loot). If it were a gank situation then the Itty V would have failed despite the fitting of the Mega.
Missing the point entirely. Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way.
That's why, despite it being likely that plenty of Mack pilots will be untanked, the fact that it can fit above the magic profit line is a problem for the Skiff's chances of being at all useful.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:49:00 -
[2920] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Missing the point entirely. Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way.
That's why, despite it being likely that plenty of Mack pilots will be untanked, the fact that it can fit above the magic profit line is a problem for the Skiff's chances of being at all useful.
If it were balanced at what the least skillful pilot could think up it would have 40-50k EHP base at low skills. It leaves room to fail, just like other ships.
Edit: If anything equating the 2 situations is like saying the Mega is OP because it could have been fit in such a way to kill the itty V even rail fit just like the Mack can be fit to make a gank unprofitable. |
Shalua Rui
FEROX AQUILA
457
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:49:00 -
[2921] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Missing the point entirely. Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way.
Ok, sorry... but now you are just beeing ignorant... it's one thing to pin all responsibility on the "bad miners" that "are not smart enough to tank their barges" and what not, but it's entirely ridiculous to expect that CCP balances NON combat ships (that, in essence, need no combat skills to be used efficiently) with pure combat vessels...
For once, have the decency and admit that what you (not you specifically, but gankers in gerneral) do is the lowest and cheapest form of PvP short of gate/station camping... admit it, you don't have to spend pages upon pages to justify yourself...
Seriously... 
"I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."
Captain John Paul Jones, 16 November 1778 |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
108
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:51:00 -
[2922] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote: Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way.
Omg you used mining and skillful pilot in the same sentence. Good show. 
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
617
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:00:00 -
[2923] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way.
Omg you used mining and skillful pilot in the same sentence. Good show.
The drake is balanced that way.
Perhaps minmitar to an extent, with how far their guns can shoot. Also minmitar drones, gets second best dmg, plus speed I think, and shafts another race to get that bonus.
I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
507
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:15:00 -
[2924] - Quote
Shalua Rui wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Missing the point entirely. Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way. Ok, sorry... but now you are just beeing ignorant... it's one thing to pin all responsibility on the "bad miners" that "are not smart enough to tank their barges" and what not, but it's entirely ridiculous to expect that CCP balances NON combat ships (that, in essence, need no combat skills to be used efficiently) with pure combat vessels... For once, have the decency and admit that what you (not you specifically, but gankers in gerneral) do is the lowest and cheapest form of PvP short of gate/station camping... admit it, you don't have to spend pages upon pages to justify yourself... Seriously...
You act like it takes a great deal of specilized training to fit a Hulk with a proper tank.
News Flash: it doesn't.
T2 shield and T1 shield rig fittings take a trivial amount of time to train for, relative to training into a Hulk.
Now, players can choose to neglect that sort of training in favor of Exhumers V - but if you can't be bothered to spend half a day to train up for a Medium Shield Extender, why throw a fuss when you lose your ship?
Why throw a fuss when you looked at those empty slots and decided to put Cap Rechargers there instead of a tank?
I'm sure its frustrating to lose a couple days worth of mining to replace your ship, but eventually you have to learn to stop pointing fingers at other players and accept it.
YOU are responsible for the loss of your Mining Ship. Nobody else.
After getting ganked, instead of raging, crying on the forums and quitting the game, ALL miners should
1. Stand up.
2. Walk to their bathroom, look in the mirror and point at themselves.
3. Say: "It is MY fault that my Hulk was destroyed. There is nobody else to blame but me."
4. And then learn something from the experience.....
|
Shalua Rui
FEROX AQUILA
457
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:20:00 -
[2925] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:YOU are responsible for the loss of your Mining Ship. Nobody else.
Ignorance truly is bliss, I guess... but ok, if that's what gankers like to believe, who am I to shake their opinion? 
"I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."
Captain John Paul Jones, 16 November 1778 |
Pipa Porto
644
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:24:00 -
[2926] - Quote
Shalua Rui wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Missing the point entirely. Why should ship balancing for Mining barges be based on what the least skillful pilot can dream up? No other ship is balanced that way. Ok, sorry... but now you are just beeing ignorant... it's one thing to pin all responsibility on the "bad miners" that "are not smart enough to tank their barges" and what not, but it's entirely ridiculous to expect that CCP balances NON combat ships (that, in essence, need no combat skills to be used efficiently) with pure combat vessels... For once, have the decency and admit that what you (not you specifically, but gankers in gerneral) do is the lowest and cheapest form of PvP short of gate/station camping... admit it, you don't have to spend pages upon pages to justify yourself... Seriously...
I never said that CCP should make Mining Barges comparable to Combat Vessels.
Efficient Mining requires that you survive long enough that losing your ship will not significantly affect your bottom line. Every other ship in the game requires support skills to do their job effectively, why should mining ships be any different?
Gankers do what they enjoy. Why do miners want to stop other people from playing the game the way they enjoy playing? If you enjoy having e-honor and losing to people who don't, that's your preference, and that's fine.
And again, why should mining ships be balanced against what the least intelligent, least skillful* player can bring to the table?
*Not SP, Player Skill. Being aligned requires 0 SP. A Meta Web requires ~250SP. Complaining about training time taking away from getting Exhumers 5 is a red herring.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
baltec1
Bat Country
1837
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:30:00 -
[2927] - Quote
Pankas Carter wrote:
The ONLY person responsible for a ship being destroyed are the people shooting at it.
They kill you because you made it worth killing you. That makes it your fault. |
Pipa Porto
644
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:32:00 -
[2928] - Quote
Pankas Carter wrote:Guns don't kill people, people letting other people shoot them kill people?
That's some twisted logic you got there.
The ONLY person responsible for a ship being destroyed are the people shooting at it.
Suicide gankers: parasites. Someone get the fungicide creme...
Yes, because the legitimate gameplay of an MMO is a perfect match to RL crime.
Next you're going to tell me that every time I win at Chess, I've overthrown a Monarchy.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:32:00 -
[2929] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:nobody suicide ganks hulks for a profit, it's for sport
but "suicide ganking shouldn't be profitable" is a bit of a newsflash I thought it was fairly obvious. I guess great minds think alike. Wow, if I was a CCP dev I would def start to hate my player base with all the arrogant, snarky ass-hats who seem to think so highly of themselves, trying to tell the devs what is what.
because suicide ganking is generally done out of spite for the target (i.e. hulk ganks) or to profit off of the loot (i.e. hauler ganks, shiny ganks)
you see, this is why loot drops when you die
EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:34:00 -
[2930] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pankas Carter wrote:
The ONLY person responsible for a ship being destroyed are the people shooting at it.
They kill you because you made it worth killing you. That makes it your fault.
No, it really doesn't. Those people went looking for someone worth killing in the case of searching for an untanked miner. If it were somehow purely the miner's fault they would explode upon contact with the "harshness of space" when undocking without a tank rather than need to wait for a ganker. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:35:00 -
[2931] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, it really doesn't. Those people went looking for someone worth killing in the case of searching for an untanked miner. If it were somehow purely the miner's fault they would explode upon contact with the "harshness of space" when undocking without a tank rather than need to wait for a ganker.
who the **** cares about who is "responsible" for the loss of a ship
if you make yourself a tempting target, don't whine about getting ganked, thanks
EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Pankas Carter
Viziam
Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:35:00 -
[2932] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Pankas Carter wrote:Guns don't kill people, people letting other people shoot them kill people?
That's some twisted logic you got there.
The ONLY person responsible for a ship being destroyed are the people shooting at it. hi, this is a game please leave your silly RL analogies at the door
Hi, this is reality. Please leave your failure to understand logic on your side of the keyboard.
In game or in the real world, logic is logic. My analogy demonstrates the logic, and is just a tool. You're not supposed to read it literally.
Adama: Starbuck, what do you hear?
Starbuck: Nothing but the rain.
Adama: Then grab your gun and bring in the cat. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:37:00 -
[2933] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:nobody suicide ganks hulks for a profit, it's for sport
but "suicide ganking shouldn't be profitable" is a bit of a newsflash I thought it was fairly obvious. I guess great minds think alike. Wow, if I was a CCP dev I would def start to hate my player base with all the arrogant, snarky ass-hats who seem to think so highly of themselves, trying to tell the devs what is what. because suicide ganking is generally done out of spite for the target (i.e. hulk ganks) or to profit off of the loot (i.e. hauler ganks, shiny ganks) you see, this is why loot drops when you die
even after the dev told you, you still cling to your narrow minded perspective. There are other potential uses for cargo scanners besides just suicide ganks. I guess it takes a greater mind than yours to realize it. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:37:00 -
[2934] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, it really doesn't. Those people went looking for someone worth killing in the case of searching for an untanked miner. If it were somehow purely the miner's fault they would explode upon contact with the "harshness of space" when undocking without a tank rather than need to wait for a ganker. who the **** cares about who is "responsible" for the loss of a ship if you make yourself a tempting target, don't whine about getting ganked, thanks
Not whining, but the explicit blame the victim syndrome in the last few post ignores a basic fact of ganking. Granted it's facilitated by the behaviors and fitting of the gankee, but then, if no one cared, why was it brought up? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:38:00 -
[2935] - Quote
I remember when people would get mocked endlessly when they'd cry about losing their multibillion ISK ships on gates to gankers, having their stuff looted and probably even salvaged. Now everyone just has sympathy for the poor ~victim~ and they bleat risk/reward re: suicide ganking, despite it being literally the only risk left for anybody in hisec that isn't dumb enough to mine/haul/run missions during wardecs.
EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Pankas Carter
Viziam
Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:40:00 -
[2936] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:I remember when people would get mocked endlessly when they'd cry about losing their multibillion ISK ships on gates to gankers, having their stuff looted and probably even salvaged. Now everyone just has sympathy for the poor ~victim~ and they bleat risk/reward re: suicide ganking, despite it being literally the only risk left for anybody in hisec that isn't dumb enough to mine/haul/run missions during wardecs.
Well, lets step back a minute and take stock:
You're a goon. Most of us would probably defend kicking puppies just to contradict you. Hide your corporation/alliance on the forum or post with an alt, if you want to have a rational discussion. I'm sorry, but that's the way things work. You all earned that reputation.
Adama: Starbuck, what do you hear?
Starbuck: Nothing but the rain.
Adama: Then grab your gun and bring in the cat. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1837
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:42:00 -
[2937] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, it really doesn't. Those people went looking for someone worth killing in the case of searching for an untanked miner. If it were somehow purely the miner's fault they would explode upon contact with the "harshness of space" when undocking without a tank rather than need to wait for a ganker.
Yes its really does. He chose not to fit a tank and faces the consiquences of his actions. It is laughably easy to avoid being ganked for profit. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1252
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:43:00 -
[2938] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:I remember when people would get mocked endlessly when they'd cry about losing their multibillion ISK ships on gates to gankers, having their stuff looted and probably even salvaged. Now everyone just has sympathy for the poor ~victim~ and they bleat risk/reward re: suicide ganking, despite it being literally the only risk left for anybody in hisec that isn't dumb enough to mine/haul/run missions during wardecs.
Oh well, that's just the way that it works nowadays I guess. Gankers are bad people 
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Pankas Carter
Viziam
Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:43:00 -
[2939] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, it really doesn't. Those people went looking for someone worth killing in the case of searching for an untanked miner. If it were somehow purely the miner's fault they would explode upon contact with the "harshness of space" when undocking without a tank rather than need to wait for a ganker. Yes its really does. He chose not to fit a tank and faces the consiquences of his actions. It is laughably easy to avoid being ganked for profit.
These consequences are completely arbitrary. As he said, he didn't explode for no reason. Someone made a decision to shoot him. The fault lies with the shooter, period.
Lets be clear here: i'm not saying ganking is necessarily wrong. You just need to accept the fact that the ganker is responsible for pulling the trigger. If bitching/whining/patching is the result of abusing it, well, that's your own damn fault.
Adama: Starbuck, what do you hear?
Starbuck: Nothing but the rain.
Adama: Then grab your gun and bring in the cat. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1647
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:44:00 -
[2940] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:even after the dev told you, you still cling to your narrow minded perspective. There are other potential uses for cargo scanners besides just suicide ganks. I guess it takes a greater mind than yours to realize it.
I'm sorry that you're wrong. Any dev who says "suicide ganking was never intended to be profitable" is lying through his teeth.
I'd have more respect for him if he simply said "we no longer feel that suicide ganking should be profitable" because the game is absolutely designed to make ganking loaded haulers and shiny-fit ships profitable.
EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
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