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Sticky:[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10866	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:28:47 - [1261] - Quote hellokittyonline wrote: Something comes along that bypasses that WITH NO DOWNSIDE and takes the place of its counterpart in every situation where I see it used (in lowsec) when said counterpart was already the lesser used of the two. With the slight exception of cloak delay, a cov ops cloak is still the superior of the two mechanics. But let's not even pretend that you're here trying to look out for the cloaked recons. You're here to protect your niche from something that you think might rattle it some, simple as that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 519	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:29:33 - [1262] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: Thus Combat Recons Online. You know that everytime our ships get changed, EVE is dying, cannot be played anymore, kills everyone, the world ends, everything is impossible, must join goons, hate goons,.... First and foremost I have observed that most of the horror-ideas you have on TQ come from those very threads you were posting in. So by stating what could happen, you put ideas into everyones heads to prove you right. If you wouldn't respond nothing would happen or at least not much. People really don't like to think for themselves and need help for the tinyest things. So what to do? Yes, look in the forums, look at player videos and do the same thing they are doing. You should know that the recon changes are the anouncement of the sleeper cruiser change, coming to your client in early 2015 but you cannot see that far ahead. signature
hellokittyonline Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 103	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:34:20 - [1263] - Quote And thus all constructive conversation inevitably devolves into coolbros who plan on paying to win with said change downplaying everyone else's opinion because they wont "man up and plex another account" or "magically train all their newbros to scan" or "miraculously make low sec pvpers want to be the dedicated scanner for their fleet". And here I was trying to look at how this will realistically effect the portion of the game that I know. Silly me, I thought we were stating opinions here but I was mistaken. We're clearly just picking apart others opinions without having any constructive input of our own. My bad.
Sabrina Scatterbrain United Souls Research And Development 22	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:35:59 - [1264] - Quote Recons not on D-scan? So what you're saying is that you want wormhole space to be a bloodbath for a week and then completely dead? Or, is this a way to increase scout subs after banning isoboxer?
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10866	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:36:57 - [1265] - Quote hellokittyonline wrote: And thus all constructive conversation inevitably devolves into coolbros who plan on paying to win with said change downplaying everyone else's opinion because they wont "man up and plex another account" or "magically train all their newbros to scan" or "miraculously make low sec pvpers want to be the dedicated scanner for their fleet". First of all, and coming from me it's especially damning, that is a massive run-on sentence. Secondly, you seem to act like scouts are some big gigantic unreasonable weight around your neck or something. Thirdly, what in the Burning Hells is a "coolbro", anyway? Quote: And here I was trying to look at how this will realistically effect the portion of the game that I know. Silly me, I thought we were stating opinions here but I was mistaken. We're clearly just picking apart others opinions without having any constructive input of our own. My bad. I have constructive input. CCP Rise, these are excellent changes, please do not bow to pressure from groups who are trying to argue their own self interest coming before proper ship balancing. The end. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Kmelx Matari Exodus 106	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:41:05 - [1266] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Besides, how in the name of Zeus does this "kill solo"? It buffs solo a fair bit, since you can hunt people wtih Combat Recons now, with some actual potency. Hunting ratters for example just got a lot easier, ditto hunting wormhole bears. Solo pvping and a lot of small gang pvping which you do not understand as an "elite" high sec PVPer is about going out solo and looking for good fights. That is you fighting against the odds against gangs that are more numerous. basically you look for good challenging fights. Most of the time you are not hunting ratters per se but that is not unheard of, your just putting yourself in space and giving people the opportunity to fight you. Recon's do not have the dps to solo most combat ships. What they do have the ability to do is ruin good fights, they ruin small gang and solo fights because they are a massive force multiplier and convey an overwhelming advantage to the side who possesses them. Ranged neuts kill active tanks, neutralise guns that use cap and force kiting ships to stay outside of tackle range. Ranged tp's aid damage application at a distance and in close. Ranged webs ensure that a gang applies it's full dps to you, prevent kiting altogether and prevent you from withdrawing if something goes wrong. And ranged tackle prevent's withdrawal in the same way. Ranged damps and ewar and tracking disruption ensure you cannot even fight back as someone kills you. And the ability not to assess a fight for this or see it coming is massive buff to gate camps and plex campers and other bads who you can end up fighting. At the moment if I see a recon or T3 decloak there is a six or so second delay in which I have to react to that change. That allows me to react to the presence of the recon, I can lock it back and put drones on it, I can bail from the fight, I can change my positioning and burn towards it etc to put me in a better position to counter it, or I can burn outside of it's effective range. Covert ops recons have an excellent bonus and a significant disadvantage for holding that bonus, they get a locking timer and a weaker tank. In a small gang I can call a target switch to the recon and try to kill it due to it's weaker tank before it has a deleterious effect on the fight. Combat recons don't have a d-scan presence, as proposed, so there is no locking timer. so they hit the grid and two to three seconds after landing the fight is over. You can't see them coming and you can't react to their presence in time for it to do you any good, you can't cap them out because they now have better cap and you can't kill them before they've ruined the fight because they have HAC grade tanks. There is no drawback to these ships are proposed and no counter to them solo, in small gang, you can gimp your dps by bringing a Keres which might allow you to neutralize one enemy recon because recons have crazy locking ranges, how then do you also counter the army of T1 logi or T2 logi that gets brought into these fights if your paper thin Keres is busy with both staying alive and keeping a recon out of the fight? It's extremely difficult to break logi with dps, unless your all flying heavier ships and even then it can be all but impossible, some of the people we fight or have tried to fight bring more logi ships to the grid than we have dps ships in our gangs. They bring enough reps to rep the damage output of a gang five or more times our size. I realize that as an "elite" high sec PVPer you have a massive hard on for this change, because it would allow you to go out and gank carebears in high sec with massive impunity, they will not see you coming until your recon lands on grid. At which point they are dead, you like it because you enjoy a dull unchallenging style of PVP in which you almost always win or will win. The rest of us want challenging PVP but we don't want to die at every turn to a plague of unbalanced recons that we cannot see coming.
hellokittyonline Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 103	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:41:20 - [1267] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: hellokittyonline wrote: Something comes along that bypasses that WITH NO DOWNSIDE and takes the place of its counterpart in every situation where I see it used (in lowsec) when said counterpart was already the lesser used of the two. With the slight exception of cloak delay, a cov ops cloak is still the superior of the two mechanics. But let's not even pretend that you're here trying to look out for the cloaked recons. You're here to protect your niche from something that you think might rattle it some, simple as that. I'm not here to protect my niche. I'm here to tell you how it will negatively effect my niche in hopes that a few changes to the mechanic will be made to keep it in line with the other ships. Like I said before, the covop cloak deactivates at the gate, the covops cloak cant be activated within 30km of the plex, the covops cloak has a locking delay, the covops cloak takes a high slot. The immunity to dscan has none of these, serves the only purpose that of covert recons (in lowsec) better while also having better base stats and better fitting. Meaning after this change I will not only very likely never see another covert recon in low sec, but I will also see an overuse of combat recons because the mechanic (if implemented in this way) is not correctly balanced.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 938	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:44:37 - [1268] - Quote curse and lachesis still 3/4 lowslots instead of 5/6, d-scan immunity still only justified on the basis that covops cloaks are balanced, even though they aren't, and game-breaking tackle range bonuses still in. this is actually more disappointing than +0.1 inertia.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10866	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:44:38 - [1269] - Quote Kmelx, I stopped reading when you made a claim that e-honor should come before ship balancing. Do you have a TL;DR for that post? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Lug Muad'Dib Wise Humans Sword 23	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:49:12 - [1270] - Quote All thing in eve need drawback, fast locking undetectable recon is no way, or solo and small gang will just never fight outside of novice and small plex, good luck to hunt people here with your recon... Kaarous Aldurald wrote: kiting chokes out the little guy, and discourages people from taking fights. Learn basic gameplay mechanic before posting perhaps ? D-Scan immunity is dumb.

Kmelx Matari Exodus 109	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:49:14 - [1271] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kmelx, I stopped reading when you made a claim that e-honor should come before ship balancing. Do you have a TL;DR for that post? Sure TLDR: Your highsec ganker PVP viewpoint is worthless to the discussion of the effect this change will have on low and null sec solo and small gang PVP.
Rammix TheMurk 317	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:49:16 - [1272] - Quote I think combat recons should be visible on d-scan during first 5 seconds after entering a system. Similar to cloaky ships. OpenSUSE 13.2, wine 1.7.32 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10867	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:51:07 - [1273] - Quote Lug Muad'Dib wrote: All thing in eve need drawback, fast locking undetectable recon is no way, or solo and small gang will just never fight outside of novice and small plex, good luck to hunt people here with your recon... Kaarous Aldurald wrote: kiting chokes out the little guy, and discourages people from taking fights. Learn basic gameplay mechanic before posting perhaps ? So you'd totally engage a Zealot fleet with a bunch of Thoraxes? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10867	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:52:28 - [1274] - Quote Kmelx wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kmelx, I stopped reading when you made a claim that e-honor should come before ship balancing. Do you have a TL;DR for that post? Sure TLDR: Your highsec ganker PVP viewpoint is worthless to the discussion of the effect this change will have on low and null sec solo and small gang PVP. And meanwhile, the opinions of people who pound their fist on the table screaming about how d-scan should be perfect so they never have to use scouts... are worthless in their entirety. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Adrie Atticus Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion 726	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:54:28 - [1275] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Pubquiz, which cov ops cloak has no deactivation delay. Im looking for a ship class and bonus points for telling me why on earth would i be bothered by one of them tackling me. So you have yet to meet an ASB Stealth bomber that could hold you long enough for something else to decloak and kill you. Got it. As i said, I get it, you don't like it. Tough for you, if history (of CCP and Rise) is the guide, this will happen. You choice is adapt or unsub. Thus Combat Recons Online. Go against an equally sized fleet of shield Ishtars and tell me how that went.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 938	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:55:29 - [1276] - Quote why are people talking about entire fleets of combat recons? are you guys ********?
Caval Marten Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 17	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:56:09 - [1277] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. PLEASE someone be a hero and enjoy the free likes by going through the thread and actually putting numbers to the for-against debate. Not sure if it's confirmation bias on my side or Rise's, but to me it seems like the overwhelming amount of feedback is against the idea of dscan immunity.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 938	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:57:48 - [1278] - Quote Caval Marten wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. PLEASE someone be a hero and enjoy the free likes by going through the thread and actually putting numbers to the for-against debate. Not sure if it's confirmation bias on my side or Rise's, but to me it seems like the overwhelming amount of feedback is against the idea of dscan immunity. it's a discussion, not a vote. that said, rise is still terrible.
hellokittyonline Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 106	Posted - 2014.12.20 18:59:31 - [1279] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I have constructive input. CCP Rise, these are excellent changes, please do not bow to pressure from groups who are trying to argue their own self interest coming before proper ship balancing. The end. not constructive input Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So you'd totally engage a Zealot fleet with a bunch of Thoraxes? not constructive input Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Kmelx, I stopped reading when you made a claim that e-honor should come before ship balancing. Do you have a TL;DR for that post? not constructive input Kaarous Aldurald wrote: First of all, and coming from me it's especially damning, that is a massive run-on sentence. Secondly, you seem to act like scouts are some big gigantic unreasonable weight around your neck or something. Thirdly, what in the Burning Hells is a "coolbro", anyway? not constructive input Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I have constructive input. CCP Rise, these are excellent changes, please do not bow to pressure from groups who are trying to argue their own self interest coming before proper ship balancing. The end. not constructive input Furthermore, https://zkillboard.com/character/1567529520/ my main (however not subbed atm). Will I exploit the **** out of this when he's subbed? Hell yea. Does that mean it's good for the game? Hell no. You're arguing for this so that you can overabuse the very imbalances that we're trying to discuss, discrediting our valid concerns, while offering absolutely no constructive counter-point by which we can take you seriously and actually have a debate. please stfu
Kmelx Matari Exodus 109	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:01:05 - [1280] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: it's a discussion, not a vote. that said, rise is still terrible. TBH were discussing it, CCP are not. From one of my earlier posts: Kmelx wrote: If you look at the timings, Rise's initial post was made at 2014-12-18 14:57:04 UTC. His we've noticed you don't seem to like this change but zero f**ks given reply was made within less than a day at 2014-12-19 11:15:14 UTC and then CCP Seagull announced it as a the number one feature of Proteus at 2014-12-19 16:15. They "consulted" with the wider playerbase for less than 26 hours about this change before they made it the top features/balance announcement in Seagull's dev blog. No clearer indication that they had no intention of taking the players viewpoints on board was needed, it was a fait accompli, we've decided to inform you were are doing this announcement, taking into account the Christmas and New Year holidays and the intransigence of Rise's reply to the concerns raised, this "balance" change is going out in Proteus.

Lug Muad'Dib Wise Humans Sword 23	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:01:53 - [1281] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So you'd totally engage a Zealot fleet with a bunch of Thoraxes? If you don't see how kiting make solo/ small gang engage fight more often, and how a well FC loose no ship or make kill against kiting small gang, well, just go pvp and learn the very basic mechanic, it won't take years. D-Scan immunity is dumb.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10867	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:02:28 - [1282] - Quote hellokittyonline wrote: You're arguing for this so that you can overabuse the very imbalances that we're trying to discuss, discrediting our valid concerns, while offering absolutely no constructive counter-point by which we can take you seriously and actually have a debate. No, I'm arguing for this because I actually want to fly these ships. They are cool as hell, and they've been pretty badly unviable for a long damned time now. Changes that improve them to be useful and viable are a positive. Being off of d-scan is unique, useful, and opens up a whole new dimension of combat in the game. And I truly don't care if said changes upset your little birdcage. Quote: please stfu You first. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Iain Cariaba 784	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:02:58 - [1283] - Quote Do I think dscan immunity is a good idea? No, I do not. I think all the rest of the changes to the recons are wonderful. However, when you combine the combat recon buffs with the dscan immunity, I think you get something way over powered. How will this effect my game? If I'm ratting, then no more waiting to see if the neut that just came in is an explorer, safe up immediately. If I'm out hunting other ratters, then flying anything other than a combat recon is stupid. Like all big changes CCP makes, I'll stick around and see what's up after the dust settles. Just a reminder to CCP, though. You are no longer the only option in the internet spaceships niche anymore. You would do well to remember this, and maybe start listening to your players. The players you drive away can now get their internet spaceship game play without having to return here, as they have had to do in the past. No, I have voiced my opinions. Since this thread has devolved into yet another circular argument, I shall not be looking at it again. I will bide my time, and see if the latest batch of changes is worth maintaining my subs, as always. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 938	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:05:11 - [1284] - Quote so people are saying to 'just use probes'. how do I fit an expanded probe launcher to my thorax?
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 519	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:05:14 - [1285] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: curse and lachesis still 3/4 lowslots instead of 5/6, d-scan immunity still only justified on the basis that covops cloaks are balanced, even though they aren't, and game-breaking tackle range bonuses still in. this is actually more disappointing than +0.1 inertia. TrouserDeagle dear, I have made a suggestion for slot changes a few pages back. Feel free to comment and take a look. signature
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10867	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:06:26 - [1286] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: so people are saying to 'just use probes'. how do I fit an expanded probe launcher to my thorax? I refuse to believe that Shadow Cartel of all people are unaware of what scouts are, and how to make good use of them. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Caval Marten Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 17	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:06:54 - [1287] - Quote Kmelx wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: it's a discussion, not a vote. that said, rise is still terrible. TBH were discussing it, CCP are not. From one of my earlier posts: Kmelx wrote: If you look at the timings, Rise's initial post was made at 2014-12-18 14:57:04 UTC. His we've noticed you don't seem to like this change but zero f**ks given reply was made within less than a day at 2014-12-19 11:15:14 UTC and then CCP Seagull announced it as a the number one feature of Proteus at 2014-12-19 16:15. They "consulted" with the wider playerbase for less than 26 hours about this change before they made it the top features/balance announcement in Seagull's dev blog. No clearer indication that they had no intention of taking the players viewpoints on board was needed, it was a fait accompli, we've decided to inform you were are doing this announcement, taking into account the Christmas and New Year holidays and the intransigence of Rise's reply to the concerns raised, this "balance" change is going out in Proteus. Good point. And to trouser, I wasn't implying it was a vote, I just wanted to see how clear it was that there were really never any strong counter-arguments. The overwhelming amount of feedback i've seen is negative, just trying to figure out if it is my own confirmation bias though.
Lug Muad'Dib Wise Humans Sword 23	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:10:43 - [1288] - Quote TrouserDeagle do some solo without OGB, scout, etc.. Be in Shadow Cartel or any other big alliance don't mean "hey don't learn pvp, just stay in fleet and press F1 when FC ask you" D-Scan immunity is dumb.
Liet Ormand Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:11:12 - [1289] - Quote I have to say, after reading through this thread as it's grown: Most of the players here are passionate about Eve to the point of insanity. If I was CCP, I'd ignore most of this thread completely simply because so few people are rational in it. It's like watching the "Occupy" protests that happened in the US a couple years back. Everyone involved was angry about something and convinced that a movement was under way to make big changes. Yet if you talked to any two people about what they were protesting you'd get two different and sometimes conflicting answers. About all this thread is good for at the moment is seeing all the different ways outraged people can snipe at each other and at CCP-Rise.
Thenoran Tranquility Industries 26	Posted - 2014.12.20 19:14:00 - [1290] - Quote Modifying the Pilgrim bonus from strength to range will generally just make it a worse Curse. If the Curse is dscan immune, what is the difference between a Curse in a plex or a cloaked Pilgrim in a plex? The curse will have the additional neut strength and no targeting delay. Whilst it does improve the Pilgrim for a fleet, is that really what you want to use a Pilgrim for? Out of the 4 Force Recons, is a neut range bonus really going to make the Pilgrim that more desirable in a fleet? If you want to neut ships out why not just bring Curses instead and use a different Force Recon for the cyno? Furthermore, most Pilgrim fits have only two high slots available for neuts, the other two going to a probe launcher and the other to the cloak. That doesn't leave much neuting power at all, just two regular neuts with more range. Nothing is going get capped out by that anytime soon. The range bonus is also not needed as a replacement (if that was the intention) for the strength bonus because the Pilgrim can already dictate range due to its cloak. Yes it is forced into scram range but within that range and the neut strength bonus it will cap out just about anything within a few cycles. Naturally the target can have friends but that in itself has no relation to the Pilgrim. By swapping out the neut strength bonus, it becomes entirely a fleet only ship because it won't be able to kill anything on its own. And within fleets, those two (maybe three) medium neuts with NO neut strength bonus are just going get laughed at. Furthermore, the range works on the Curse because the Curse can kite with a shield tank. The Pilgrim is not only to slow itself to kite, but it is armor tanked, meaning it becomes a brick. If you want to give a buff, give it an addtional low slot for a stronger tank or a drone damage amp or an additional high slot for another neut or nos. The other alternative is to give a light range bonus IN ADDITION to the neut strength bonus so it can neut within warp disruptor range as well as warp scrambler range, say 20% like the strength bonus.



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