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Barge Fairy Tale: CCP saving stupid Pigs from themselves.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 12 post(s)
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:11:00 - [1411] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Do you gank and empty freighter? Do you gank a transport with 2M worth of contents? Do you gank an empty indy because it fits an experimental cloak? Do you gank the T1 fitted Drake or the meta 4 fitted CNR? If the reply is: "yes I do it for a profit" then you are hopeless. Now, why should you gank an empty or T1 fit exhumer and feel entitled you must "do it for a profit" again? Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.
Herr Wilkus Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service 449	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:12:00 - [1412] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Yes, they can. We tested this, they cant. And besides, assembling a large group of gankers imposes an array of costs beyond just ISK. -not everyone can assemble a group like that on short notice - especially if your 'play time' is in an off peak Time Zone. -Multiple Concord spawns to dispose of. -much higher chance of failure if one person screws up or gets disconnected. -sec status hits are multiplied across the entire group, not just for the 'final blow' plus, simple lack of variety. So, the only way to gank (without losing your ass) is to pile into Catalysts? (nevermind that blaster ganking effectiveness falls off sharply above 0.7 space....)
Suqq Madiq Amarr Empire 220	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:13:00 - [1413] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Yes, they can. We tested this, they cant. You break even by the time you hit 3 catalysts This is outright bullshit. 3 Tech 1 fit Catalysts can gank a Hulk now at a cost of under 10mil ISK. If a Hulk drops half it's mods and even a modest amount of Salvage those 3 Catalyst pilots have just doubled their ISK. And that's not counting the 10mil ISK/Exhumer bounty that Jihadageddon has added to the profitability. That amount of profit is imbalanced. Plain and simple.
MIrple BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team 33	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:13:00 - [1414] - Quote Dave stark wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Dave stark wrote: and then it's you mine or you tank I find it unsurprising that you're unaware that you can actually mine AND tank just fine the ways things are now. and this is where we go around in circles but i'll answer it; the point is you HAVE to give up your mining bonuses to fit a tank on your mining ship. your combat ships don't have to give up their damage mods; they can give up the utility mods instead. Please tell me how a Gal or Amarr ship doesn't give up Damage Slots for tank?
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:14:00 - [1415] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: Herr Wilkus wrote: Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target. But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank? You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong. A well fitted hulk will not die to 3 catalysts and does require the firepower of 3-4 tornado to kill it.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 9019	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:15:00 - [1416] - Quote Ohanka wrote: Mag's wrote: Stuff..... Again, you are wrong, as usual. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time? Really? Please pray tell of why this is so. CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Sarik Olecar Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:18:00 - [1417] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. I think that's the problem. You wouldn't gank a bare tengu because it the salvage wouldn't pay for it. Why should a hulk give 30mil in intact armor plates if it only costs 3mil to kill it? If the hulk is blinged out with 500mil officers strips or whatever, then it should be a valid target, the same as a bling tengu... Otherwise its disproportional to the rest of the game.
Suqq Madiq Amarr Empire 221	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:19:00 - [1418] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Herr Wilkus wrote: Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target. But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank? You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong. A well fitted hulk will not die to 3 catalysts and does require the firepower of 3-4 tornado to kill it. More bullshit. Your definition of "well fitted hulk" involves the Hulk sacrificing every bit of yield for tank. This is unrealistic. No other ship in the game is expected to sacrifice every one of it's tools and slots in order to maximize it's tank just to exist. The average Hulk with a decently sized tank and only a Survey Scanner to assist it's yield can still easily be ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts.
Pipa Porto 537	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:20:00 - [1419] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: Herr Wilkus wrote: Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target. But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank? You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong. Only if you don't bother to tank the Hulk. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:20:00 - [1420] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: baltec1 wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Yes, they can. We tested this, they cant. You break even by the time you hit 3 catalysts This is outright bullshit. 3 Tech 1 fit Catalysts can gank a Hulk now at a cost of under 10mil ISK. If a Hulk drops half it's mods and even a modest amount of Salvage those 3 Catalyst pilots have just doubled their ISK. And that's not counting the 10mil ISK/Exhumer bounty that Jihadageddon has added to the profitability. That amount of profit is imbalanced. Plain and simple. 50% of mods will be blown up on a good kill, then the salvage will not always produce the best results. Over the long term you will lose isk by ganking ships that require 4-10 catalysts. In order to make a good profit you need to use one or two ships per gank. Goons waged war on high sec miners and lost isk on the ship ganks themselves. My corp turned that into a profit making war on ship hulls when we did our own interdiction and invented the gank destroyers you see today. However if you wish to prove that we are wrong then by all means do what we did and use 10 catalysts per gank and then come back to us with your results. I garentee you that you will make a loss.
Dave stark Bombardier Inc 290	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:20:00 - [1421] - Quote MIrple wrote: Dave stark wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Dave stark wrote: and then it's you mine or you tank I find it unsurprising that you're unaware that you can actually mine AND tank just fine the ways things are now. and this is where we go around in circles but i'll answer it; the point is you HAVE to give up your mining bonuses to fit a tank on your mining ship. your combat ships don't have to give up their damage mods; they can give up the utility mods instead. Please tell me how a Gal or Amarr ship doesn't give up Damage Slots for tank? because you can fit a shield tank. no you don't get bonuses for it; but that's beyond the point. pretty sure with the introduction of the drone damage mods a fair few gal ships went for shield tanks in order to make the most of their drone bonuses? again with a combat ship you can choose which slots to put the tank in and what you want to give up; in an exhumer you can't pick which you give up. an exhumer doesn't have the cpu to fill the mid slots with shield tank and also fit mlus. conversely if you fit hull or armour tank in the lows then you just have mid slots hanging around as an exhumer doesn't have utility mods. [maybe survey scanner but you know what i mean] you either fill it with tank, or you put yield mods on. trying to fit shield mods and dropping 1 of the two mlus is probably the best compromise but you've effectively just lost yield for half a tank that means you're still going to get ganked so... why fit the tank to star with unless you're going to fit the whole one? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
Pipa Porto 537	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:21:00 - [1422] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: baltec1 wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Yes, they can. We tested this, they cant. You break even by the time you hit 3 catalysts This is outright bullshit. 3 Tech 1 fit Catalysts can gank a Hulk now at a cost of under 10mil ISK. If a Hulk drops half it's mods and even a modest amount of Salvage those 3 Catalyst pilots have just doubled their ISK. And that's not counting the 10mil ISK/Exhumer bounty that Jihadageddon has added to the profitability. That amount of profit is imbalanced. Plain and simple. Only if the Hulk doesn't bother to fit any tank. If the Hulk fits a Tank, the gankers can, at best, in a 10 man, special snowflake situation, break even. But the tanked Hulk in a .7 or higher and it's game over for gankers and anything near breakeven. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto
Suqq Madiq Amarr Empire 221	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:21:00 - [1423] - Quote Pipa Porto wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Herr Wilkus wrote: Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target. But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank? You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong. Only if you don't bother to tank the Hulk. Nope. Wrong again. A Hulk with tank modules in every slot but 1 is still easily ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts. Expecting a Hulk to sacrifice every bit of yield and every mid, low and rig slot to maximize it's tank is stupid. No other ship needs to go to such lengths just to exist.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1722	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:22:00 - [1424] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Do you gank and empty freighter? Do you gank a transport with 2M worth of contents? Do you gank an empty indy because it fits an experimental cloak? Do you gank the T1 fitted Drake or the meta 4 fitted CNR? If the reply is: "yes I do it for a profit" then you are hopeless. Now, why should you gank an empty or T1 fit exhumer and feel entitled you must "do it for a profit" again? Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. You also make a profit if they fit a tank that still lets them have a semblance of efficiency. IE even if you fit a DC but still want to use 1 MLU (analogous +performance mods every other ship worth leaving an hangar allows to do) you'll still die for a profit because the tank drops considerably. This is what I object to. Zero tank dying is OK (but should reward little, not from 16.5M upwards). Balanced tank dying is OK but should not be profitable. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:25:00 - [1425] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: Nope. Wrong again. A Hulk with tank modules in every slot but 1 is still easily ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts. Expecting a Hulk to sacrifice every bit of yield and every mid, low and rig slot to maximize it's tank is stupid. No other ship needs to go to such lengths just to exist. Show me the fitting of the 3 destroyer that allows you to burn though 23k of hp in 7 seconds.
Pipa Porto 537	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:25:00 - [1426] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: Suqq Madiq wrote: Herr Wilkus wrote: Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target. But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank? You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong. Only if you don't bother to tank the Hulk. Nope. Wrong again. A Hulk with tank modules in every slot but 1 is still easily ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts. Expecting a Hulk to sacrifice every bit of yield and every mid, low and rig slot to maximize it's tank is stupid. No other ship needs to go to such lengths just to exist. Only in .5 space. Besides that, a 0 MLU Hulk still mines more than any other ship in the GAME. No other ship is better at its role with no role enhancing modules than every other ship no matter how they're fit. Fly to .8-1.0 space (still has the most profitable HS ore), and you can't be ganked profitably if you go midslot and rig only tank. Miners who are ATK can also fit no tank and survive every single gank attempt, profitable or not. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:26:00 - [1427] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You also make a profit if they fit a tank that still lets them have a semblance of efficiency. IE even if you fit a DC but still want to use 1 MLU (analogous +performance mods every other ship worth leaving an hangar allows to do) you'll still die for a profit because the tank drops considerably. This is what I object to. Zero tank dying is OK (but should reward little, not from 16.5M upwards). Balanced tank dying is OK but should not be profitable. You dont make isk on a well tanked hulk even with a MLU fitted.
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 124	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:27:00 - [1428] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. 10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon. Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP. Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay.
Shameless Avenger 322	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:28:00 - [1429] - Quote OMG the whinage... it's like Warp 2 Zero all over again. "This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro" ~ The Story of the Ninja
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:29:00 - [1430] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: baltec1 wrote: Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. 10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon. Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP. Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay. They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please.
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 124	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:34:00 - [1431] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Jorma Morkkis wrote: baltec1 wrote: Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. 10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon. Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP. Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay. They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please. This fit on SiSi has 22k EHP [Hulk, Hulk, tank] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Dave stark Bombardier Inc 291	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:34:00 - [1432] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: baltec1 wrote: Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. 10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon. Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP. Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay. actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus. all mining ships have 350m3 cargo, except the covetor which has 500. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1722	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:36:00 - [1433] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You also make a profit if they fit a tank that still lets them have a semblance of efficiency. IE even if you fit a DC but still want to use 1 MLU (analogous +performance mods every other ship worth leaving an hangar allows to do) you'll still die for a profit because the tank drops considerably. This is what I object to. Zero tank dying is OK (but should reward little, not from 16.5M upwards). Balanced tank dying is OK but should not be profitable. You dont make isk on a well tanked hulk even with a MLU fitted. I don't care about hulks but about macks. Prove me you can have 1 MLU mack that can survive the equivalent in catalysts of an average of 1 plate drop (16.5M) + half its mods and drones. It's about 4 catalysts worth of value. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 124	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:37:00 - [1434] - Quote Dave stark wrote: actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus. It had 50% bonus (10%/level).
MIrple BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team 33	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:37:00 - [1435] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: baltec1 wrote: Jorma Morkkis wrote: baltec1 wrote: Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank. 10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon. Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP. Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay. They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please. This fit on SiSi has 22k EHP [Hulk, Hulk, tank] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Put a meta EM Hardener on there and see what it changes to?
Dave stark Bombardier Inc 291	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:39:00 - [1436] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Dave stark wrote: actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus. It had 50% bonus (10%/level). indeed it did. currently the mackinaw's ore bay is less than 1 cycle of mining larger than it's t1 counterpart's. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
Suqq Madiq Amarr Empire 222	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:39:00 - [1437] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: This fit on SiSi has 22k EHP [Hulk, Hulk, tank] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Damage Control II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I [Hulk, Incredible Hulk] Damage Control II Reinforced Bulkheads II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II 32k w/ Heat, T2 rigs, 3 CPU and 0 PG to spare. I'd LOVE to see the Hulk fit that has more. And this thing is an abomination. Nobody should be forced to fit this way just to survive a few Catalysts out for profit.
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 124	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:44:00 - [1438] - Quote MIrple wrote: Put a meta EM Hardener on there and see what it changes to? 23,7k
Wuxi Wuxilla The Tuskers 41	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:50:00 - [1439] - Quote Quote: [Hulk, Cheap Highsec Tank] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Internal Force Field Array I Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I 32.981 EHP heated and really cheap Quote: [Hulk, expensive highsec tank] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hornet EC-300 x5 Mining Drone II x5 Needs Genolutions + PG5, so about 60mil more expensive than your t2 rig fit, but 37129 ehp heated. You also don't lose your implants when your Hulk gets blown up (unless you are afk), so actually cheaper in the long run. Quote: [Hulk, MLUII + Tank] Damage Control II Mining Laser Upgrade II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Small Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I 26.318 ehp heated /edit: All TQ stats
baltec1 Bat Country 1724	Posted - 2012.07.27 19:51:00 - [1440] - Quote Suqq Madiq wrote: [Hulk, Incredible Hulk] Damage Control II Reinforced Bulkheads II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II 32k w/ Heat, T2 rigs, 3 CPU and 0 PG to spare. I'd LOVE to see the Hulk fit that has more. And this thing is an abomination. Nobody should be forced to fit this way just to survive a few Catalysts out for profit. You only need to survive 3. After that 99% of people will leave you alone so a hulk can fit a MLU and be rather secure.

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