Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK

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It's been said numerous times before.

Swap the Brutix drone bay (100 m3) with the Thorax drone bay (200 m3) and you kill two birds with one stone. If the Thorax users want to whine about it, toss them either a dozen or so more m/s to their speed or a bit more powergrid.

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Originally by: HippoKing

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Originally by: HUGO DRAX

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A Raven could wipe out a tanked thorax in no time

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what with?

a raven has less drones than a rax, its missiles do (almost) nothing (unless it fits heavies, thus borking its anti-BS setup), nosferatus don't have much affect on a rax - so what is a raven supposed to do - unless that raven is in an antirax setup (with smarties, and probably heavy missiles), the rax wins.

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Originally by: HippoKing

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Originally by: HUGO DRAX

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A Raven could wipe out a tanked thorax in no time

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what with?

a raven has less drones than a rax, its missiles do (almost) nothing (unless it fits heavies, thus borking its anti-BS setup), nosferatus don't have much affect on a rax - so what is a raven supposed to do - unless that raven is in an antirax setup (with smarties, and probably heavy missiles), the rax wins.

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Originally by: HUGO DRAX

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Lets see, Heavy NOS = dead rax
Cruise Missles = dead rax
ECM = dead rax

stay 20KM away from one. etc..

Think.

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Originally by: HUGO DRAX

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Lets see, Heavy NOS = dead rax
Cruise Missles = dead rax
ECM = dead rax

stay 20KM away from one. etc..

Think.

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Originally by: Stormfront

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Let the Rax fit 5 heavy ions, mwd rep II and mwd. Without grid mods.

nerf the drones

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Originally by: Stormfront

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Let the Rax fit 5 heavy ions, mwd rep II and mwd. Without grid mods.

nerf the drones

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Originally by: Keltin

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Nerf the Thorax, because it performs like a cruiser should perform, without using cruiser sized weapons. Right that's a great argument there. I'll have to remember it sometime down the road.

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Originally by: Keltin

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I also enjoy the argument: This ship costs (insert amount of money) and it should be better than the Thorax. Well folks I've got a little news flash for you. Those prices you are paying for ships, aren't nearly as low as they could be, stop thinking isk=power of ship.

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Originally by: Keltin

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Boost other ships, don't nerf the Thorax, it's really that simple. Add PG and CPU or cap recharge rate to the other ships, allow them to fit bigger guns to help them deal with the Thorax as it comes charging in. Make a new tier of 3200 plates for Battleships, so the Thorax has BS hp whines can die out. There are a lot of things that can be changed, it doesn't have to be the Thorax.

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Originally by: Keltin

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Nerf the Thorax, because it performs like a cruiser should perform, without using cruiser sized weapons. Right that's a great argument there. I'll have to remember it sometime down the road.

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Originally by: Keltin

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I also enjoy the argument: This ship costs (insert amount of money) and it should be better than the Thorax. Well folks I've got a little news flash for you. Those prices you are paying for ships, aren't nearly as low as they could be, stop thinking isk=power of ship.

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Originally by: Keltin

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Boost other ships, don't nerf the Thorax, it's really that simple. Add PG and CPU or cap recharge rate to the other ships, allow them to fit bigger guns to help them deal with the Thorax as it comes charging in. Make a new tier of 3200 plates for Battleships, so the Thorax has BS hp whines can die out. There are a lot of things that can be changed, it doesn't have to be the Thorax.

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Originally by: HUGO DRAX

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Lets see, Heavy NOS = dead rax
Cruise Missles = dead rax
ECM = dead rax

stay 20KM away from one. etc..

Think.

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Originally by: HUGO DRAX

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Lets see, Heavy NOS = dead rax
Cruise Missles = dead rax
ECM = dead rax

stay 20KM away from one. etc..

Think.

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Originally by: Deja Thoris

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wtf?

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Originally by: Deja Thoris

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wtf?

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Originally by: Keltin

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I also enjoy the argument: This ship costs (insert amount of money) and it should be better than the Thorax. Well folks I've got a little news flash for you. Those prices you are paying for ships, aren't nearly as low as they could be, stop thinking isk=power of ship.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Dude, that is not the argument and you know it. Do you hope that this confusion is helping the debate, or do you just believe that it will end it ?

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Originally by: Keltin

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Boost other ships, don't nerf the Thorax, it's really that simple. Add PG and CPU or cap recharge rate to the other ships, allow them to fit bigger guns to help them deal with the Thorax as it comes charging in. Make a new tier of 3200 plates for Battleships, so the Thorax has BS hp whines can die out. There are a lot of things that can be changed, it doesn't have to be the Thorax.

Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Problem:
The combinaison BS armor + BS weapons + frig defense in a disposable cruiser is wrong.
Every tier 3 cruiser can fit frigate guns.
Every tier 3 cruiser can fit a big plate (or two in the case of the maller).
Only the Thorax can use BS weapons..

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Solution:
remove the ability of the thorax to use BS weapons.

Problem solved

Who are you to tell everyone heavy drones are a battleship sized weapon? Who died and made you king of EVE to declare what can be used as what? Sure heavy drones are a good weapon, but like so many people have pointed out to you, they can be destroyed. I know every MMO you have ever logged into had cookie cutter templates that you had to use to be successful. In EVE there happens to be very good ships in each class that require just that extra bit of planning to be able to defeat. Let's not make EVE just another cookie cutter game where everything is the same, just with different names.

Originally by: Keltin

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I also enjoy the argument: This ship costs (insert amount of money) and it should be better than the Thorax. Well folks I've got a little news flash for you. Those prices you are paying for ships, aren't nearly as low as they could be, stop thinking isk=power of ship.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Dude, that is not the argument and you know it. Do you hope that this confusion is helping the debate, or do you just believe that it will end it ?

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Originally by: Keltin

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Boost other ships, don't nerf the Thorax, it's really that simple. Add PG and CPU or cap recharge rate to the other ships, allow them to fit bigger guns to help them deal with the Thorax as it comes charging in. Make a new tier of 3200 plates for Battleships, so the Thorax has BS hp whines can die out. There are a lot of things that can be changed, it doesn't have to be the Thorax.

Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Problem:
The combinaison BS armor + BS weapons + frig defense in a disposable cruiser is wrong.
Every tier 3 cruiser can fit frigate guns.
Every tier 3 cruiser can fit a big plate (or two in the case of the maller).
Only the Thorax can use BS weapons..

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Solution:
remove the ability of the thorax to use BS weapons.

Problem solved

Who are you to tell everyone heavy drones are a battleship sized weapon? Who died and made you king of EVE to declare what can be used as what? Sure heavy drones are a good weapon, but like so many people have pointed out to you, they can be destroyed. I know every MMO you have ever logged into had cookie cutter templates that you had to use to be successful. In EVE there happens to be very good ships in each class that require just that extra bit of planning to be able to defeat. Let's not make EVE just another cookie cutter game where everything is the same, just with different names.

Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Originally by: Fidelis Deus

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The thorax is an interesting ship - it's one of the few cruisers which are viable in pvp - thus it should be nerfed.

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Nobody said that, and if you are trying to make people believe that it was said... well, though it may work, the confusion you bring isn't shedding light into the debate.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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I'm probably as much of a noobie as yourself. Again, you are purposefully bringing confusion in the debate. Nobody said that the thorax had to be nerfed because it is not t2 or the other things you write. That would be silly and i'm afraid, you want people to believe that the arguments are silly, on basis of the confusion that you bring.

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Quote:

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How does it relate to the fact that the cruiser is carrying a battleship weapon, something of the kind of - as i said in a previous post - cruise launchers on a caracal or megapulses on a maller.

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Quote:

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Look, your confusion again. How does the fact that one has an alt relate to the debate ?
The thorax, with a plate, has battleship armor + battleship weapon + anti frig defense, and is only marginally affected by nos in his damage output, as opposed to other cruisers - except the rupture and caracal - and electronic warfare - except the caracal.
With or without the plate, this unique combinaison make it completely overpowered, as compared to its class, and also as compared to other classes. It is completely outside of the general game design in so many ways:
- no real tradeoff between damage output and tank (thanks to oversized plate, but ALSO thanks to the fact that it doesn't give up much by not carrying guns... all the fitting resources can be dedicated to tanking).
- carry a weapon not designed for its class (8 heavy drones), actually equal to several battleship guns/launchers in damage output and range, and also gifted by a particulary awesome tracking.
- can dedicate the gun hardpoints to frig and cruiser defense, thus in fact covering with weapons of the right size every class of ship there is in the game.
And the list goes on.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Originally by: Fidelis Deus

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The thorax is an interesting ship - it's one of the few cruisers which are viable in pvp - thus it should be nerfed.

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Nobody said that, and if you are trying to make people believe that it was said... well, though it may work, the confusion you bring isn't shedding light into the debate.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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I'm probably as much of a noobie as yourself. Again, you are purposefully bringing confusion in the debate. Nobody said that the thorax had to be nerfed because it is not t2 or the other things you write. That would be silly and i'm afraid, you want people to believe that the arguments are silly, on basis of the confusion that you bring.

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Quote:

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How does it relate to the fact that the cruiser is carrying a battleship weapon, something of the kind of - as i said in a previous post - cruise launchers on a caracal or megapulses on a maller.

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Quote:

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Look, your confusion again. How does the fact that one has an alt relate to the debate ?
The thorax, with a plate, has battleship armor + battleship weapon + anti frig defense, and is only marginally affected by nos in his damage output, as opposed to other cruisers - except the rupture and caracal - and electronic warfare - except the caracal.
With or without the plate, this unique combinaison make it completely overpowered, as compared to its class, and also as compared to other classes. It is completely outside of the general game design in so many ways:
- no real tradeoff between damage output and tank (thanks to oversized plate, but ALSO thanks to the fact that it doesn't give up much by not carrying guns... all the fitting resources can be dedicated to tanking).
- carry a weapon not designed for its class (8 heavy drones), actually equal to several battleship guns/launchers in damage output and range, and also gifted by a particulary awesome tracking.
- can dedicate the gun hardpoints to frig and cruiser defense, thus in fact covering with weapons of the right size every class of ship there is in the game.
And the list goes on.

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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I really am having trouble pinning down where the argument is, for the thorax being overpowered. The only solid thing I reading is "the drone bay is too big, the dronebay is too big!"

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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As if that actually stands as an argument. As has already been pointed out ad nausium, some others cruisers can use 6 heavy drones.

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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the thorax has fewer slots and fitting problems compared to other t3 cruisers

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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and every other gallente ship *above* cruiser class has more drone bay space then the thorax.

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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Someone kindly pointed out that tactics vs the thorax isn't a problem (in other words, it's not especially "hard" to kill a thorax when you know what your doing).

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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So do me a favor- IN LIST FORM, lay out the argument as to exactly why the thorax is overpowered, point by point, in short and consice form (one sentence each, ect)

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Originally by: Paradox Eve

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And whoever said the drones of a thorax does BS dmg is simply full of crap. I have crap gunnery skills (seriously, nothing relevant byond lev 3), and my BS does *way* more damage than the most damaging heavy drones, with max skills, if we are talkling about 8 of them. And that is whithout dmg mods, and far more range (not to mention instant dmg, unlike the drones). When you add in my BS dronebay, the argument becomes even more laughable. Get out of here with that nonsense. Lying wont win you an argument.

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