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 Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate    |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:49:00 -
[181] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:54:58 The fact that the thorax has more drone bay than the vexor makes the vexor very unappealing in comparison. You are also hidding a large part of my reply here. I did not do that with any of you arguments. See my moa analogy. There is no sence giving the moa more missile hardpoints than to the caracal. I was messing around with a plated rifter around a shield tanked mining megathron. In a fast close orbit his Ogre drones slaughtered me, and i wasn't webbed or nossed or whatever. Whatever you think, no drawback will be harsh enough to compensate for that, no matter what you think. Common! Give the moa 3 cruise launchers, it has less than the scorpion so all is fine and all. Stop that, you are not funny. So you want the thorax to have as many slots as others tier 3 cruisers, yet my caracal shall not get as many slots than other tier 2 cruisers because IT IS NOT A FRICKIN TIER 3 cruiser ? What is that for a reason. Okay, so be it, all fine to me. At least we agree on something. But what slot ? It is not THAT simple. That is an uncommon conception, seeing as they are designed to kill said classes. A battlecruiser, in my mind, was designed to kill cruisers and hence, is in a class above. Fair enough. Assault cruisers are still cruisers, ok. But to be honest i fail to see the relevance here. I didn't have the exact numbers to do the math, i stand corrected. This just doesn't prove the whole debate irrelevant by any mean, it's not like that was the only argument.
As far as i can tell we are not comparing the total damage output of the thorax with the total damage output of the raven. We are comparing the drones of the thorax (his main damage source currently, in the particular setup that is showing the problem we are discussing) VS the damage output of a pre-patch torp-raven (counting only his main damage source). That seemed fair to me, but i see how convenient it is to you to write what you write. We were comparing comparable things, you propose not to. See above. How exactly is the argument retarded ? Because you said so ? How convenient. (continued) In Rust We Trust |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:50:00 -
[182] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:51:09 The only number that i had wrong was the drone damage, it was off by 13% if i account max skills and maybe 25% if you downgrade skills to similar level. This, in no way, does make you right about everything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:50:00 -
[183] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:51:09 The only number that i had wrong was the drone damage, it was off by 13% if i account max skills and maybe 25% if you downgrade skills to similar level. This, in no way, does make you right about everything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Joshua Foiritain |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:51:00 -
[184]
Myt Thorax Vs corp members Vigi = Me Win. My Vigi vs corp Thorax = He win. We tried every setuo we could imagine, 8 Ogres will *****a vigi without any real problems. Especially since the thorax can deak 4 damage types. The Vigi's bonusus are cute but they dont compare to 8 ogres. [Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
 Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:51:00 -
[185]
Myt Thorax Vs corp members Vigi = Me Win. My Vigi vs corp Thorax = He win. We tried every setuo we could imagine, 8 Ogres will *****a vigi without any real problems. Especially since the thorax can deak 4 damage types. The Vigi's bonusus are cute but they dont compare to 8 ogres. [Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
 Voltron |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:00:00 -
[186]
No its not........you just have to pick and choose your fights.....i've been flying the same stupid stabber for about a week now......no freakin clue how its still alive, it has no plate and only a small rep....and it sees pvp daily, not ganksquad pvp either. Volt |
 Voltron Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:00:00 -
[187]
No its not........you just have to pick and choose your fights.....i've been flying the same stupid stabber for about a week now......no freakin clue how its still alive, it has no plate and only a small rep....and it sees pvp daily, not ganksquad pvp either. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it? |
 Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:03:00 -
[188] If you pick your fights, yeah, any ship will last for a bit. Unforetunately, without plates battleships can press that instawin button against cruisers. |
 Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:03:00 -
[189] If you pick your fights, yeah, any ship will last for a bit. Unforetunately, without plates battleships can press that instawin button against cruisers. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:09:00 -
[190]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Aside from the drone bonus on the Vexor (an added bonus when cruisers were beefed up a while back, not an original feature) drones are not even mentioned in the description. Meanwhile, the Thorax description makes mention of blasters and "hordes of drones" to take apart its enemy. Thorax has low grid compared to other cruisers. Thorax has fewer slots compared to cruisers in its class. It makes up for this with "hordes of drones." There are ways to beat thoraxes...and a rupture with tech 2 howies can do it easily...particularly if the thorax is mwd-ing. The thorax needs its superior DoT because it has less time to do that damage in. Plain and simple. Having to run at least 15 seconds through withering fire with mwd on before you can land a single hit is punishing to say the least. Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage. Besides, as established, it is the premier drone cruiser of a drone-favoring race. So this is not a problem. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:09:00 -
[191]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Aside from the drone bonus on the Vexor (an added bonus when cruisers were beefed up a while back, not an original feature) drones are not even mentioned in the description. Meanwhile, the Thorax description makes mention of blasters and "hordes of drones" to take apart its enemy. Thorax has low grid compared to other cruisers. Thorax has fewer slots compared to cruisers in its class. It makes up for this with "hordes of drones." There are ways to beat thoraxes...and a rupture with tech 2 howies can do it easily...particularly if the thorax is mwd-ing. The thorax needs its superior DoT because it has less time to do that damage in. Plain and simple. Having to run at least 15 seconds through withering fire with mwd on before you can land a single hit is punishing to say the least. Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage. Besides, as established, it is the premier drone cruiser of a drone-favoring race. So this is not a problem. |
Dragon Slave |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:17:00 -
[192]
What kind of reasoning is that? Can a battleship beat 250+ frigates? Ofcourse not, it's a matter of how much ISK you're willing to pay for extra HP and firepower. |
 Dragon Slave Gallente Tranquil Transactions |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:17:00 -
[193]
What kind of reasoning is that? Can a battleship beat 250+ frigates? Ofcourse not, it's a matter of how much ISK you're willing to pay for extra HP and firepower. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:19:00 -
[194] "Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage." People flied Thoraxes before the armour plates got the boost. You didn't really hear them ***** "omg i die too fast and don't do enough damage to kill things after i get within range". There wasn't really much *****ing about Thorax being overpowered, either. Was pretty clear deal: you managed to kill approaching Thorax, you won. You didn't, you were screwed. There's lot of complaints about Thorax' "uberperformance" after the plate boost, though. Coincidence? maybe... or maybe the 'high damage at price of high fragility' balance thing got tipped somehow. >>; |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:19:00 -
[195] "Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage." People flied Thoraxes before the armour plates got the boost. You didn't really hear them ***** "omg i die too fast and don't do enough damage to kill things after i get within range". There wasn't really much *****ing about Thorax being overpowered, either. Was pretty clear deal: you managed to kill approaching Thorax, you won. You didn't, you were screwed. There's lot of complaints about Thorax' "uberperformance" after the plate boost, though. Coincidence? maybe... or maybe the 'high damage at price of high fragility' balance thing got tipped somehow. >>; |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:20:00 -
[196]
To use your own argument... the MWD bonus wasn't an original feature of the Thorax so. So don't go tearing down one bonus based argument then assume your stance around one. Second...the DEVS wanted to curb the drones before and were yelled out of it because of carebear miners. Look I don't want the thorax to die a horrible nerf. I want it balanced. Its overpowered in PvE and in PvP. We aren't talking about roles here... like it being a primary Kin, Therm damage dealer so it needs to kill Minmatar and Amarr ships not Caldari or Gallente. We are talking about it being able to kill ANY ship with ease and not because it can fit a plate. ANY combat cruiser can fit a plate. The problem TODAY lies with the drone bay and the drone bay alone. This doesn't mean we don't think it needs boosting, because if they take the drones from it then it most certainly will. But all cruisers could stand a boost somewhere to make them even more attractive. PvP would benefit from it in general because of less money lost. ATM... too many people stay in empire because they don't want to loose their BS, HAC and faction ships. Give them a reason to use cruisers and you will see the true EXODUS to 0.0. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
 Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:20:00 -
[197]
To use your own argument... the MWD bonus wasn't an original feature of the Thorax so. So don't go tearing down one bonus based argument then assume your stance around one. Second...the DEVS wanted to curb the drones before and were yelled out of it because of carebear miners. Look I don't want the thorax to die a horrible nerf. I want it balanced. Its overpowered in PvE and in PvP. We aren't talking about roles here... like it being a primary Kin, Therm damage dealer so it needs to kill Minmatar and Amarr ships not Caldari or Gallente. We are talking about it being able to kill ANY ship with ease and not because it can fit a plate. ANY combat cruiser can fit a plate. The problem TODAY lies with the drone bay and the drone bay alone. This doesn't mean we don't think it needs boosting, because if they take the drones from it then it most certainly will. But all cruisers could stand a boost somewhere to make them even more attractive. PvP would benefit from it in general because of less money lost. ATM... too many people stay in empire because they don't want to loose their BS, HAC and faction ships. Give them a reason to use cruisers and you will see the true EXODUS to 0.0. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[198] Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered. Much like battleship sized afterburners did for certain cruisers. But drones are a thoraxes bread and butter, and this thread makes the rediculous case that its drone capacity should be cut in half. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[199]
And, if it fits small pulse/beams/rails instead of small blaster, you have a "i win" button. What the thorax has to do is what EVERY CRUISER HAS TO DO outside of niche role, as sniping for moa, rupture, and caracal. Well all know how that last part blows so give us a break with that. It is never funny to stay in a cruiser at the optimal of a battleship, mwd'ing to it or staying there sniping. But, to top it up, after fitting the almost necessary plate and frig guns*, you have 150 dps of drones, when other tier 3 cruiser get a nos and extra resist (maller), an extra mid and no agility to speak of (moa) or the ability to use the smallest autocannon and thus, not wasting a bonus and still having decent tracking. To bad you need the bonus to be on par with other gun types. If you think that 150 dps is as good as the other bonus, well...  *By the way, fitting frigate guns on a cruiser, plates or not, is not a sacrifice unless you are sniping. See above. Tracking is much more important, and the lowest damage more than makes up for it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[200] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:28:32 Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered. Much like battleship sized afterburners did for certain cruisers. But drones are a thoraxes bread and butter, and this thread makes the rediculous case that its drone capacity should be cut in half.
I'm not basing any arguments on bonuses. I'm basing arguments on descriptions. The Vexor is a good, all-round surviveable combat ship. The thorax is a drone boat. Plain and simple. The drone bonus for the vexor actually allowed it to fill that roll better (Vexor was plain garbage before the change) and the mwd bonus allowed the thorax to fill its roll better as well. No, I'm not implying a double-standard. Why not fix the "plate" issue? A common-sense precident has already been set with afterburners and mwd's...so why not with armor plate? I can concede that it makes no sense for a 1600mm plate to have the same effect on the velocity and agility of my thorax as a 400mm plate. If thoraxes stop showing up to combat with battleship size hit-points, everybody is quickly going to see how vulnerable a ship it truly is. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[201]
And, if it fits small pulse/beams/rails instead of small blaster, you have a "i win" button. What the thorax has to do is what EVERY CRUISER HAS TO DO outside of niche role, as sniping for moa, rupture, and caracal. Well all know how that last part blows so give us a break with that. It is never funny to stay in a cruiser at the optimal of a battleship, mwd'ing to it or staying there sniping. But, to top it up, after fitting the almost necessary plate and frig guns*, you have 150 dps of drones, when other tier 3 cruiser get a nos and extra resist (maller), an extra mid and no agility to speak of (moa) or the ability to use the smallest autocannon and thus, not wasting a bonus and still having decent tracking. To bad you need the bonus to be on par with other gun types. If you think that 150 dps is as good as the other bonus, well... *By the way, fitting frigate guns on a cruiser, plates or not, is not a sacrifice unless you are sniping. See above. Tracking is much more important, and the lowest damage more than makes up for it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:25:00 -
[202]
Give me 6 missiles hardpoint and 4 gun hardpoints, plsu the fitting for it, on my moa, and there will be no problem either. God, i was almost going to type that in all caps, in hope you would see easily how wrong that is. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:25:00 -
[203]
Give me 6 missiles hardpoint and 4 gun hardpoints, plsu the fitting for it, on my moa, and there will be no problem either. God, i was almost going to type that in all caps, in hope you would see easily how wrong that is. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:28:00 -
[204] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/08/2005 23:29:03 "Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered." It's probably the combination of these two things that makes thing go out of whack ^^; Thorax with heavy drones but light defense: okay Thorax with good armour but light weapons: okay Thorax with heavy drones and good armour: omgwtfbbq one has to give... and i suppose it's easier for people to ask about nerf aimed specifically at one ship that stands out the most(Thorax' drone bay) instead of all cruisers (oversized plates) ^^;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:28:00 -
[205] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/08/2005 23:29:03 "Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered." It's probably the combination of these two things that makes thing go out of whack ^^; Thorax with heavy drones but light defense: okay Thorax with good armour but light weapons: okay Thorax with heavy drones and good armour: omgwtfbbq one has to give... and i suppose it's easier for people to ask about nerf aimed specifically at one ship that stands out the most(Thorax' drone bay) instead of all cruisers (oversized plates) ^^;; |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:30:00 -
[206] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:29:50
And if you add small long range guns to that, you have a monster. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:30:00 -
[207] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:29:50
And if you add small long range guns to that, you have a monster. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:32:00 -
[208] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:34:29
Ignorance.
She's right. But let's go for quality and nerf the plate instead of nonsensical shortcut and nerf the drones. I can deal with a fragile thorax. I do it all the time now anyway, 'cause frankly I don't like giving up the damage bonuses for medium hybrids. *edit* Besides...nerf the drones on the thorax, and the plate WILL become an issue with another cruiser that steps up as "overpowered." Fix the right thing on the thorax, and we can save a lot of balancing heart-ache in the future. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:32:00 -
[209] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:34:29
Ignorance.
She's right. But let's go for quality and nerf the plate instead of nonsensical shortcut and nerf the drones. I can deal with a fragile thorax. I do it all the time now anyway, 'cause frankly I don't like giving up the damage bonuses for medium hybrids. *edit* Besides...nerf the drones on the thorax, and the plate WILL become an issue with another cruiser that steps up as "overpowered." Fix the right thing on the thorax, and we can save a lot of balancing heart-ache in the future. |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:35:00 -
[210] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:50:37 I'd like to be less ignorant. Care to explain ? Edit: Caldari are long range, that mean railguns and missiles. So it is ok to have railguns and missiles on the same ships, and it is ok if the moa, despite being primarily a gunboat, has more missiles launchers than the caracal because it is a higher thier ship. This is perfectly logic according to your own logic, so take that IGNORANCE statement back. Or, please reconsider your previous affirmation regarding the fact that the thorax has both more drones and more guns than the specialized drone carrier, and that is it perfectly fine. Thank you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
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