EVE Search - Reduce Thoraxes bay to 100m3

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FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:14:00 - [61] the only way I would support my favorite shiped being nerfed is if they give that drone bay they take from the rax and give it to the brutix, and give both ships a cpu/pg boost need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:20:00 - [62] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 22:25:31 Originally by: Beyta Darrel He is caldari. Does he ask for a caracal nerf? No. He asks to nerf the thorax. Look, fit a smartbomb. Problem solved. Go home. Only battleships can realistically use smartbombs against heavy drones. Only a fool would use smartbombs in empire. The fact that you can come with a setup against another doesn't change the fact that the ship is blatantly overpowered. Finally, do i have to make a gallente alt to assess this problem ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: nevermind, troll food removed.
Hellraiza666	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:26:00 - [63] Maybe if u used medium electrons on it you would see its main fire power is its blasters not drones heavy electron II with a dmg mod and gall cruiser 4, i do almost double the dmg of my drones with blasters Also boost other cruisers instead of nerfing rax.. Ideas : Maller -> increase armor Caracal -> give it an extra med or low ?! Rupture -> Bit more speed? Blackbird -> Change bonus from range to higher chance of jamming vexor -> 2500m3 drone bay but take a slot away?? Moa -> 5th turret etc. etc. list can go on, notice why people use thorax's??? Because u actually HAVE A CHANCE in 1, if u nerf a rax, all cruisers will be pathetic unless against frigs.... -------------------------------------------- In War There Are No Runners Up... Image by Denrace
Fidelis Deus	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:37:00 - [64] The thorax is an interesting ship - it's one of the few cruisers which are viable in pvp - thus it should be nerfed. Ships should not be nerfed simply because they aren't t2 or take 5 months of training to used effectively - remember for every hardcore pro in this game - there are 5 newbies like me who like to play around. We don't have the massive amount of isk or the SP to fly ubert2 HACs or some battleship - however, we still want at the very least a chance to be halfway decent in battle. Right now - the Thorax gives us that chance, to be able to contribute to a fight or a battle without having a seperate alt dedicated to making isk and training for a couple years. The Thorax is not the problem; the problem is that Cruisers right now are woefully underpowered in pvp.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:51:00 - [65] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 22:51:37 Originally by: Hellraiza666 Maybe if u used medium electrons on it you would see its main fire power is its blasters not drones Simply, not. Originally by: Hellraiza666 Also boost other cruisers instead of nerfing rax.. First, halving the drone bay of the thorax, is not incompatible with a boost to all the cruisers, including the thorax. Ok ? Secondly, heavy drones are a battleship weapon. 8 of them account for multiple battleship guns, and their tracking is awesome. In order to boost other cruisers to the same level, you would have to give the caracal some cruise launchers, or the maller should get some megapulses. How about no ? Originally by: Hellraiza666 Ideas : Maller -> increase armor Caracal -> give it an extra med or low ?! Rupture -> Bit more speed? Blackbird -> Change bonus from range to higher chance of jamming vexor -> 2500m3 drone bay but take a slot away?? Moa -> 5th turret Not very fond of those for various reasons, especially the vexor. Originally by: Hellraiza666 etc. etc. list can go on, notice why people use thorax's??? Because u actually HAVE A CHANCE in 1, if u nerf a rax, all cruisers will be pathetic unless against frigs.... Ok. Other cruisers are pathetic unless against frigs. They can't possibly be pathetic against themselves, so i guess the only thing they are currently not pathetic against are the battleships and hac's. In that quote alone, you can see very clearly where is the problem with the thorax. Thanks for proving my point. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Shaemell Buttleson	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Theta9 lol i do have a clue i see a ship with fewer slots than every other tier 3 cruiser lower pg and cpu than most others and lower armor/shield hp than the other cruiser (though not quite by much)only slightly faster than MOA and MALLER dispite being a close range ship. again if you want to increase the thorax slot's and pg and cpu by all means go ahead means my deimos will be all that much more uber (i dream of 5 neutron II's without pdu's) cause there going to have to increase that ships stats to be in line with the thorax. In a recent corp tourney I used a Thorax setup with nosferatus and tanked it to hell. I felt mean using it against the other cruisers in the match as it was IMO too powerfull and owned everyone in 1 on 1. Admitedly we are not all fantastic pvp'ers but it owned a Maller, a Moa and several ruptures piloted by players with a decent amount of skill and experience. The setup I used could be neutralised but not really by conventional setups. The amount of dronespace is alot for a cruiser when you think that only half the battleships have as much or more dronespace. Also you tell me what other cruisers can set up a full rack of the best type medium guns they excell with as well without lowslot mods to increase the grid or cpu. None can afaik and if they do I bet they are severely nerfed their setup.
Cookie	Posted - 2005.08.22 23:02:00 - [67] you're not really talking about the thorax ... ... or the dronebay ... or about some nerfing you talk about the dronelag, aren't you ?
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 23:12:00 - [68] Originally by: Fidelis Deus The thorax is an interesting ship - it's one of the few cruisers which are viable in pvp - thus it should be nerfed. Nobody said that, and if you are trying to make people believe that it was said... well, though it may work, the confusion you bring isn't shedding light into the debate. Originally by: Fidelis Deus Ships should not be nerfed simply because they aren't t2 or take 5 months of training to used effectively - remember for every hardcore pro in this game - there are 5 newbies like me who like to play around. I'm probably as much of a noobie as yourself. Again, you are purposefully bringing confusion in the debate. Nobody said that the thorax had to be nerfed because it is not t2 or the other things you write. That would be silly and i'm afraid, you want people to believe that the arguments are silly, on basis of the confusion that you bring. Originally by: Fidelis Deus We don't have the massive amount of isk or the SP to fly ubert2 HACs or some battleship - however, we still want at the very least a chance to be halfway decent in battle. How does it relate to the fact that the cruiser is carrying a battleship weapon, something of the kind of - as i said in a previous post - cruise launchers on a caracal or megapulses on a maller. Originally by: Fidelis Deus Right now - the Thorax gives us that chance, to be able to contribute to a fight or a battle without having a seperate alt dedicated to making isk and training for a couple years. Look, your confusion again. How does the fact that one has an alt relate to the debate ? The thorax, with a plate, has battleship armor + battleship weapon + anti frig defense, and is only marginally affected by nos in his damage output, as opposed to other cruisers - except the rupture and caracal - and electronic warfare - except the caracal. With or without the plate, this unique combinaison make it completely overpowered, as compared to its class, and also as compared to other classes. It is completely outside of the general game design in so many ways: - no real tradeoff between damage output and tank (thanks to oversized plate, but ALSO thanks to the fact that it doesn't give up much by not carrying guns... all the fitting resources can be dedicated to tanking). - carry a weapon not designed for its class (8 heavy drones), actually equal to several battleship guns/launchers in damage output and range, and also gifted by a particulary awesome tracking. - can dedicate the gun hardpoints to frig and cruiser defense, thus in fact covering with weapons of the right size every class of ship there is in the game. And the list goes on. Originally by: Fidelis Deus The Thorax is not the problem; the problem is that Cruisers right now are woefully underpowered in pvp. Okay. The whole thread explains why, even if "cruisers right now are woefully underpowered in pvp", the thorax IS a problem. Why don't you come with an argument, rather than a bold statement of the kind ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Koth Krakenworth	Posted - 2005.08.22 23:43:00 - [69] Edited by: Koth Krakenworth on 22/08/2005 23:43:35 Cruisers should kill frigates and other cruisers. If they can do that, then it's a good cruiser. If it can take on battleships and hac's, it's overpowered. Period. A cheap ship like a cruiser shouldn't be able to match a ship ten times more expensive. Simple logic. Cruisers need not to be better. Instead, make sure the Thorax is on even terms with the other high-end cruiers, like the rupture and caracal so that a fight against them will be rather even. When they're balanced like that they shouldn't need much more attention from CCP. "It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes."
Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.08.22 23:54:00 - [70] Nerf the Celestis "If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault."
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.23 01:04:00 - [71] It's been said numerous times before. Swap the Brutix drone bay (100 m3) with the Thorax drone bay (200 m3) and you kill two birds with one stone. If the Thorax users want to whine about it, toss them either a dozen or so more m/s to their speed or a bit more powergrid. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.08.23 01:37:00 - [72] Thorax isn't overpowered- and its dronebay isn't too big. People are just too stupid to figure out how to fight against them. It really isn't that hard.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.08.23 02:48:00 - [73] Originally by: Paradox Eve Thorax isn't overpowered- and its dronebay isn't too big. Its drone bay is larger than the Gallente cruiser carrier, the Battlecruiser and the tech 2 version of the Thorax. It should be brought in line with other Gallente ships, and it should be boosted to work as a blasterboat in a cruiser vs cruiser environment. Its not that the Thorax is overpowered or underpowered, its just that it doesn't feel right. The Vexor is the cruiser drone carrier - not the Thorax, and thats what should be changed. Proud member of Elite Academy.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.23 07:46:00 - [74] Originally by: Paradox Eve Thorax isn't overpowered- and its dronebay isn't too big. People are just too stupid to figure out how to fight against them. gasp It is not nice to question people's intelligence. It is not even clever to do it in a way that shows that you didn't understand most of what was said previously. Nobody said that there is no counter to a thorax. Nobody even said that another cruiser cannot win in a 1 vs 1 situation against a thorax. Get it ? The problem is not that people do not know how to fight a thorax. The problem is that the drone bay of the thorax is to big to be a cruiser weapon, it is a battleship weapon in damage and range. The tracking is more like a very good cruiser weapon or a frigate weapon than a battleship weapon. The range, 45 km, isn't close range in the frigate and cruiser world, it is not even mid range but long range in the cruiser world. The damage output of drones alone is what most battleships do at that range with all their guns, without using damage mods. And that is with much more skills dedicated to gunnery than the thorax pilot even has to have in "drone operation". Now, who does look stupid. You sir, do have a big mouth but not what it takes to back it up. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Seramis	Posted - 2005.08.23 09:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Naughty Boy gasp It is not nice to question people's intelligence. It is not even clever to do it in a way that shows that you didn't understand most of what was said previously. Nobody said that there is no counter to a thorax. Nobody even said that another cruiser cannot win in a 1 vs 1 situation against a thorax. Get it ? The problem is not that people do not know how to fight a thorax. The problem is that the drone bay of the thorax is to big to be a cruiser weapon, it is a battleship weapon in damage and range. The tracking is more like a very good cruiser weapon or a frigate weapon than a battleship weapon. The range, 45 km, isn't close range in the frigate and cruiser world, it is not even mid range but long range in the cruiser world. The damage output of drones alone is what most battleships do at that range with all their guns, without using damage mods. And that is with much more skills dedicated to gunnery than the thorax pilot even has to have in "drone operation". Now, who does look stupid. You sir, do have a big mouth but not what it takes to back it up. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Oh common, if a thorax user sends its drones to a target 45km away the opponent either kills the half of the drones or kills the thorax or has more than enough time to move away. If a BS does the same damage with all their guns at 45km like 10 heavy drones then the BS user has all Skills only or statistics, at level 1 or so. With average Large Weapon skills (to be able to use 10 Heavy Drones you need maxed good drone skills) u do more damage, u can kill the Rax before its drones arrive at you. Gallente is the 'Drone Race' so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with extraordinary drone space. The Arbitrator, an Amarr ship, can hold 6 Heavy Drones, and you want to decrease the drone bay of a drone race ship to 100 (4 heavy drones). Naughty Boy you better should use your intelligence before you post. Regards Seramis Proud Caldarian
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.23 09:39:00 - [76] That whole point is retarded. No sane Thorax pilot launches his drones out at 45 km. You carry your drones to the target. So stop using that as defense. Problem with the Thorax is its ability to put out 170 DPS through its drones, another 90 DPS through Light Neutron Blasters, while having 5k+ HP with a plate fitted, as well as the ability to fit plenty of hardners. I don't care how much you complain that it's short range, thats just plain unbalanced. Also, don't give me the "you can shoot the drones or smartbomb them" bull. It takes 5 reps of a thermal medium smartbomb to kill an Ogre. Thats about 40 seconds with high-level smartbomb skills. In that time, they will deal 6800 points of damage. And shooting them down one by one? A bit more effective but it doesn't change the fact that the entire time you're trying to kill those drones, them AND the Thorax are ripping into you. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.23 09:42:00 - [77] People that can't see the Thorax is clearly imbalanced **** compared to the rest of T1 cruisers are simply blind. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.23 09:46:00 - [78] Originally by: Seramis Oh common, if a thorax user sends its drones to a target 45km away the opponent either kills the half of the drones or kills the thorax or has more than enough time to move away. If a BS does the same damage with all their guns at 45km like 10 heavy drones then the BS user has all Skills only or statistics, at level 1 or so. With average Large Weapon skills (to be able to use 10 Heavy Drones you need maxed good drone skills) u do more damage, u can kill the Rax before its drones arrive at you. So, basically, the thorax is not overpowered bevause a battleship can slaughter it at 45 km when it does something dumb ? You are talking about a totally hypothetical situation that you don't even bother describing, what do you expect to prove with that ? And, furthermore, nobody is talking about 10 heavy drones (maxed drones skills) but 8 heavy drones (drones to level 5, drone interfacing to level 3). Originally by: Seramis Gallente is the 'Drone Race' so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with extraordinary drone space. The Arbitrator, an Amarr ship, can hold 6 Heavy Drones, and you want to decrease the drone bay of a drone race ship to 100 (4 heavy drones). Caldari is the "missile race", so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with cruise and siege launchers ? Amarr is the "turret race", so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with megapulses or megabeams ? Besides, 4 heavy drones would more likely be 10 medium drones: a cruiser weapon for a blaster boat of a drone race, this is perfectly fine. 15 medium drones for the arbitrator and the vexor, the drone carriers of two different races. It doesn't matter than the arbitrator is not a gallente ship, it is already sub-par compared to the vexor. Cruiser weapons for dedicated drone carriers: This is fine to me. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.23 10:04:00 - [79] ^^ Well said. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Jane Vladmir	Posted - 2005.08.23 10:09:00 - [80] Originally by: Jim Raynor People that can't see the Thorax is clearly imbalanced **** compared to the rest of T1 cruisers are simply blind.
Kye Kenshin	Posted - 2005.08.23 10:15:00 - [81] The arbitrator is not sub-par. Ive seen what that ship can do in skilled hands. Even if you nerf the dronebay your still gonna have people using the small blasters and 1600m plate setup just because small blasters are alot better then med blasters and you can fit a whole rack. Ive killed other cruisers with this setup with out using any heavies before so people are still gonna complain even if you took the whole drone bay away. In reality the rax is gimped as it has to rely on a setup which it was never intended for just to be useable. In fact cruisers in general need to be completely over hauled and thought long and hard about where there role really is. so the rax is overpowered because it exists in a generally underpowered class
Seramis	Posted - 2005.08.23 11:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Naughty Boy And, furthermore, nobody is talking about 10 heavy drones (maxed drones skills) but 8 heavy drones (drones to level 5, drone interfacing to level 3). So all that much wind only about 2 Heavy Drones (8 in Thorax, 6 in Arbitrator). Lol, ahh, big lol. Blaster are nice, very nice, if your opponent let you warp in at very close range. Oh, a very hypothetical situation too. And, btw. also a cruiser fittet for long range fight can kill at least 2 - 4 of the Thorax' drones if he start drone attack at 45km. In short range fight thorax is a very good ship, sure. But every ship has a specific role, Caracal in short range and you become perforated faster than u can send 2 volleys of your heavy missiles, it's a long range ship. Thorax, attacked by a sniping cruiser, has no chance to do any damage. It has to come close, very close, and that in most situations need time, time for the opponent to kill the thorax. If there is something that should be changed it should be the 1600mm plates, because those are BS sized modules like 100MN MWD/AB and it should not be possible to fit them into something smaller than BS.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.08.23 11:08:00 - [83] I love my thorax; I can't fly any other race's cruiser. But to be frank, the 200 m^3 drone bay is overkill, the thorax already is a superb blaster-ship. You can fit a full rack of medium blasters (Electron II's) in a balanced offensive/defensive setup while doing ~320 Dps before drones. Throwing in another ~170 DPS for 8 Ogres just makes it obscene. At maximum skills a total turret/drone damage of 503/sec is possible, that's not a 'gank' setup either. Ten Hammerheads is ~90 Dps, that's plenty on top of the damage from medium blasters. Swapping the Brutix and Thorax drone bays around could be a good idea, just got to be careful not to unbalance it next to the other Battlecruisers, a Pg/CPU boost in addition would probably be a step too far (you can already fit 7x Electron II's, Armour repairer/MWD with Adv.Weapon Upgs IV). The people who say cruiser suck are forgetting just how much æbang for your buckÆ you get out of them. Battlecruisers cost ~4x as much, are they 4x more effective?...I seriously doubt it. Tier 2 Battleships cost approximatly 15 times as much (example, Thorax:Megathron), is a blaster-equipped Megathron 15 times better than a blaster-equipped Thorax?...not a chance. Diminishing returns 4tw (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Muad 'dib	Posted - 2005.08.23 12:19:00 - [84] Edited by: Muad ''dib on 23/08/2005 12:20:08 Agreed, nerf thorax drone bay by half please none of the "leave the t'rax alone, boost the rest" is bollox. The rax with named bits + drones does more DPS than an average fit BS which is why so many pirates use it - cheap and deadly, it would throw off all cruiser ballancing boosting the other races cruisers. Its no coinsidence that all the other cruisers of all teirs are ballanced and then theres the thorax. . . . its IS overpowered and has been for a very long time. Oh and boost the vigilants drones bay to 100, its silly only fitting 5 lights for a gallante/mimattar hybrid faction ship, the rupture can fit 6 mediums for gods sake.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.23 12:28:00 - [85] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 12:34:01 Originally by: Seramis So all that much wind only about 2 Heavy Drones (8 in Thorax, 6 in Arbitrator). Lol, ahh, big lol. Blaster are nice, very nice, if your opponent let you warp in at very close range. Oh, a very hypothetical situation too. And, btw. also a cruiser fittet for long range fight can kill at least 2 - 4 of the Thorax' drones if he start drone attack at 45km. In short range fight thorax is a very good ship, sure. But every ship has a specific role, Caracal in short range and you become perforated faster than u can send 2 volleys of your heavy missiles, it's a long range ship. Thorax, attacked by a sniping cruiser, has no chance to do any damage. It has to come close, very close, and that in most situations need time, time for the opponent to kill the thorax. If there is something that should be changed it should be the 1600mm plates, because those are BS sized modules like 100MN MWD/AB and it should not be possible to fit them into something smaller than BS. Just for you, even though i said i was going to shut up. Why do you have this obsession about conceiving game balance only in 1 VS 1, two ships of the same class against each other, where nobody can warp out. The thorax is overpowered in his class and outside his class. As for the rest of what you write, please read again the whole thread and think about it, no need to answer yet again the same issues because you can't be bothered to read before posting. Originally by: Kye Kenshin The arbitrator is not sub-par. Ive seen what that ship can do in skilled hands. The arbitrator is not sub-par. It is, however, not worth using over a vexor as it is lacking in about every possible way compared to the vexor. See what the 'freak said here: clicky. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
SolarKnight	Posted - 2005.08.23 12:32:00 - [86] Edited by: SolarKnight on 23/08/2005 12:35:15 Why not just limit the Thorax to using medium drones? that way you still get to use swarms of drones, like it says in its description, you still get reasonably good damage from the drones, and it reduces the damage it can do, without changing the ship too much. (This would also make its drone carrying ability similar to the dominix, in that it would be able to carry a second wave of drones) Any thoughts on this?
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.23 12:36:00 - [87] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 12:36:42 Nevermind.
656587	Posted - 2005.08.23 12:49:00 - [88] I agree, I lost a tempest to a thorax. What is the point of getting a battleship when a smaller ship can beat you. Atleast in other games a larger sword and shield will always beat the smaller sword and shield. I dont think this makes sense, they need to fix EvE.
Apoll	Posted - 2005.08.23 13:13:00 - [89] Originally by: Muad 'dib Oh and boost the vigilants drones bay to 100, its silly only fitting 5 lights for a gallante/mimattar hybrid faction ship, the rupture can fit 6 mediums for gods sake. Vigilant signed. (A bit more PG is good since it doesn't have the drone bay). Nerf Thorax drone bay but give 100+ PG (CPU is fine). Everyone whining about Thorax all those months. a) You cannot tank (800/1600mm plating) without drop to small weapons where you don't get bonus. Basicaly you are doing 25% more damage than Incursus. (Incursus has better tracking). b) You cannot fit Railguns without 3-4 RCU T2 and Armor rep (nothing else!!!!!) At Advance Wep upgrade 4. And the answer everyone use on the above (non gallente pilots) is "YOU HAVE A HUGE DRONE BAY USE IT". A Maller as follows (it doesn't get any bonus on lasers so...) 5 X 220mm AC MWD - X5 - Cap recharger T2 800mm Plating - Med Armor rep t2 - 4 Guro T2 (it can fit everything with Adv Wep upgrades 4 + Implant or Adv Wep 5) Could you tell me how deadly it is compared to Thorax including the drones or any other T1 cruiser & BattleCruiser??? It can chop down any armor and even beat few BS out there. Ah! And regarding the "BS killer Thorax" please check the kill mails. 99% of the Thorax vs BS nearly all BS were either poorly fitted from noobs or long range fittings.
NateX	Posted - 2005.08.23 13:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Nerf moa. Yeah! the osprey and Bellicose way to Ubber killars! NateX

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