|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 30 .. 38 :: one page | |
| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 Nomen Nescio    |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:41:00 -
[511] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 15:41:37 |
 Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:54:00 -
[512] If making Drones specific to ship class is the final solution then I will live with it. If they even want an advanced drone interfacing rank(8-12) to increase +1 drone per level I am all for that. i don't care if a Thorax can use 15 Medium Drones NOR do I care if a Vexor can use 20 lights. Its when you can use 8 heavies with little SP investment ( compared to a AF, HAC, BS pilot ) and still have a comparable or better ship. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
 Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:54:00 -
[513] If making Drones specific to ship class is the final solution then I will live with it. If they even want an advanced drone interfacing rank(8-12) to increase +1 drone per level I am all for that. i don't care if a Thorax can use 15 Medium Drones NOR do I care if a Vexor can use 20 lights. Its when you can use 8 heavies with little SP investment ( compared to a AF, HAC, BS pilot ) and still have a comparable or better ship. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:31:00 -
[514]
You can't shoot down a ranged weapon. I'd like to see this 170dps quantified. If the above numbers really are spot on, then yeah. Switching the space with the Vexor (which can put out less dps via weapons) starts looking approachable. Agree with the SiSi testing and less BS though. |
 Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:31:00 -
[515]
You can't shoot down a ranged weapon. I'd like to see this 170dps quantified. If the above numbers really are spot on, then yeah. Switching the space with the Vexor (which can put out less dps via weapons) starts looking approachable. Agree with the SiSi testing and less BS though. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:46:00 -
[516] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 18:03:42
You can't jam all the drones.
a. thorax drone bay with ogres, 2 level 5 skills 1 level 3 skill (can't remember the ranks): 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 8 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 176 dps. b. vexor drone bay with hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 15 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 135 dps. c. vexor with thorax drone bay: 3 ogres 12 hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): ((9 * 12) + (3 * 22)) * 1.6 * 1.25 / 2 = 174 dps. As you see, swapping the vexor and thorax drone bay makes the drone control bonus barely useful, since 8 ogres outdamage a full bay (200m¦) of 15 drones (12*10m¦ + 3*25m¦ = 195m¦). d. thorax with vexor drone bay, 1 level 5 skill 1 level 1 skill: 6 ogres: 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 6 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 132 dps. e. thorax with vexor drone bay (mk II), 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead 5 spares: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. f. thorax with half drone bay, 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. This is with the most damaging t1 drones and no specialisation skills btw. I hope the calculations are right, for some reason something sounds wrong there. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: added formating, drone bay volume calculations and d., e. & f. calculations. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
 Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:46:00 -
[517] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 18:03:42
You can't jam all the drones.
a. thorax drone bay with ogres, 2 level 5 skills 1 level 3 skill (can't remember the ranks): 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 8 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 176 dps. b. vexor drone bay with hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 15 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 135 dps. c. vexor with thorax drone bay: 3 ogres 12 hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): ((9 * 12) + (3 * 22)) * 1.6 * 1.25 / 2 = 174 dps. As you see, swapping the vexor and thorax drone bay makes the drone control bonus barely useful, since 8 ogres outdamage a full bay (200m¦) of 15 drones (12*10m¦ + 3*25m¦ = 195m¦). d. thorax with vexor drone bay, 1 level 5 skill 1 level 1 skill: 6 ogres: 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 6 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 132 dps. e. thorax with vexor drone bay (mk II), 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead 5 spares: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. f. thorax with half drone bay, 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. This is with the most damaging t1 drones and no specialisation skills btw. I hope the calculations are right, for some reason something sounds wrong there. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: added formating, drone bay volume calculations and d., e. & f. calculations. In Rust We Trust |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:11:00 -
[518]
You can't jam a drone. True, and I thought about NOS after I posted.
Flight times, target aquisitions, traversal modifiers, redeployment after destruction, lack of F1-F8 keys, etc. Those numbers would be if you could hit a button on an ogre and start hitting your target at optimal immediately. Its also all thermal on an ogre (which have the most to factor with regards to flight time), and the thorax isn't gonna be mixing and matching much...whereas a turret can switch it up. And not saying you aren't right - but the numbers pulled from the items/skills isn't all of it. Cheers! |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:11:00 -
[519]
You can't jam a drone. True, and I thought about NOS after I posted.
Flight times, target aquisitions, traversal modifiers, redeployment after destruction, lack of F1-F8 keys, etc. Those numbers would be if you could hit a button on an ogre and start hitting your target at optimal immediately. Its also all thermal on an ogre (which have the most to factor with regards to flight time), and the thorax isn't gonna be mixing and matching much...whereas a turret can switch it up. And not saying you aren't right - but the numbers pulled from the items/skills isn't all of it. Cheers! --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:29:00 -
[520]
Flight time being the key factor. In a fight starting at 20km, it will take 8 heavy drones about 20 seconds to get into firing range. That's assuming the dumb-ass target just sits still. That's 20 seconds of damage the thorax has to take. By mr. "I do 200 damage per second in my rupture's" calculations, that's a good 4000 damage before resistances. Before the thorax has done one lick of damage. Does this mean ANYTHING to you folks? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:29:00 -
[521]
Flight time being the key factor. In a fight starting at 20km, it will take 8 heavy drones about 20 seconds to get into firing range. That's assuming the dumb-ass target just sits still. That's 20 seconds of damage the thorax has to take. By mr. "I do 200 damage per second in my rupture's" calculations, that's a good 4000 damage before resistances. Before the thorax has done one lick of damage. Does this mean ANYTHING to you folks? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:48:00 -
[522] Yeah, sure, and caracal at 100 km outdamages us all, how much damage would that be if you go close on it with 300m/s? 170 dps in heavy drones moves 800m/s. And once in range it doesnt stop for reload, how about that? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:48:00 -
[523] Yeah, sure, and caracal at 100 km outdamages us all, how much damage would that be if you go close on it with 300m/s? 170 dps in heavy drones moves 800m/s. And once in range it doesnt stop for reload, how about that? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:55:00 -
[524]
Oh for the love of God. When's the last time you've had to reload in a half minute combat session? Having the wrong ammo loaded for the situation and not having the brains to swiftly disengage not included... I'm not talking about some rediculous uncommon combat range here. I'm talking about a very typical range for two cruisers to encouter eachother. Assuming "typical" resistances and no 1600mm plate on the thorax, the thorax will be hurting quite a bit before it begins doing its damage. It needs a superior DoT at that point. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:55:00 -
[525]
Oh for the love of God. When's the last time you've had to reload in a half minute combat session? Having the wrong ammo loaded for the situation and not having the brains to swiftly disengage not included... I'm not talking about some rediculous uncommon combat range here. I'm talking about a very typical range for two cruisers to encouter eachother. Assuming "typical" resistances and no 1600mm plate on the thorax, the thorax will be hurting quite a bit before it begins doing its damage. It needs a superior DoT at that point. |
 Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:08:00 -
[526] For the love of god. Please. Thorax are usign 150mm rails and hits you at 20km. Rupture has autos and close on thorax.
|
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:08:00 -
[527] For the love of god. Please. Thorax are usign 150mm rails and hits you at 20km. Rupture has autos and close on thorax.
|
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:30:00 -
[528] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 19:45:40
Stats about t2 720mm: * Range: 24 km range * 0.5 (emp 50% range penalty) * 1.25 (sharpshooter to level 5) = 15 km => fight start in falloff, but let's say we don't care. * ROF: 15.75 sec * 0.75 (cruiser skill to 5) * 0.75 (rapid firing to 5) * 0.9 (gunnery to 5) = 8 seconds * damage/salvo: 4 * 6.9 (damage mod) * 1.25 (med projectile to 5) * 1.15 (surgical strike to 5) * 22 (emp damage) * 1.10 (specialization to 5) * 1.25 (cruiser skill to 5) = 1200 damage (546/0/218/436) * dps = 150 hp/s. Stats about the thorax: Thorax with a stock t1 800mm plate and 2 energized nano membranes t2, hull upgrades 5: 2250 (i think) * 1.25 = 2800. Resists : 72/55/55/38. Let's assume 1000 shield (975 base shield, up to 25% higher with skill). Simulation: Effect of the first salvo (0s): 1000 - (546 - 0.6 * 218 - 0.4 * 436) = 148 shield hp remaining. Effect of the second salvo (8s): 2800 - (0.38 * 450 - 0.45 * 180 - 0.62 * 360) = 2800 - 475 = 2325 armor hp remaining. Effect of the third salvo (16s): 2325 - (0.38 * 546 - 0.45 * 218 - 0.62 * 436) = 2325 - 575 = 1750 hp remaining. Note that at this point of time the total armor destroyed is 1050 hp (the base armor of a thorax without skill): 25% of a non plated thorax with hull upgrades 5 are still there at that moment and up to 23 seconds. And that is assuming that the fight start at the first salvo of the rupture. You could argue that at that time, the thorax can dodge the turrets (720mm artillery aren't exactly tracking good) and all various stuffs can happen from there. The rupture isn't tanked in a meaningfull way, and at best light missiles (?) and 6 meds drones are still doing some damage. Without big plates, gank > tank anyway. With big plates, well... we know :/ And yes, i know, this is not the real/test server... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: some more numbers: 0s: 148 shield; 8s: 2325 armor; 16s: 1750 armor; 24s: 1175 armor; 32s: 600 armor; 40s: 25 armor; ... and that is not accounting a med rep t2, misses/wreckings, weather and all. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:30:00 -
[529] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 12:49:02 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 19:45:40
Stats about t2 720mm: * Range: 24 km range * 0.5 (emp 50% range penalty) * 1.25 (sharpshooter to level 5) = 15 km => fight start in falloff, but let's say we don't care. * ROF: 15.75 sec * 0.75 (cruiser skill to 5) * 0.75 (rapid firing to 5) * 0.9 (gunnery to 5) = 8 seconds * damage/salvo: 4 * 6.9 (damage mod) * 1.25 (med projectile to 5) * 1.15 (surgical strike to 5) * 22 (emp damage) * 1.10 (specialization to 5) * 1.25 (cruiser skill to 5) = 1200 damage (546/0/218/436) * dps = 150 hp/s. Stats about the thorax: Thorax with a stock t1 800mm plate and 2 energized nano membranes t2, hull upgrades 5: 2250 (i think) * 1.25 = 2800. Resists : 72/55/55/38. Let's assume 1000 shield (975 base shield, up to 25% higher with skill). Simulation: Effect of the first salvo (0s): 1000 - (546 - 0.6 * 218 - 0.4 * 436) = 148 shield hp remaining. Effect of the second salvo (8s): 2800 - (0.38 * 450 - 0.45 * 180 - 0.62 * 360) = 2800 - 475 = 2325 armor hp remaining. Effect of the third salvo (16s): 2325 - (0.38 * 546 - 0.45 * 218 - 0.62 * 436) = 2325 - 575 = 1750 hp remaining. Note that at this point of time the total armor destroyed is 1050 hp (the base armor of a thorax without skill): 25% of a non plated thorax with hull upgrades 5 are still there at that moment and up to 23 seconds. And that is assuming that the fight start at the first salvo of the rupture. You could argue that at that time, the thorax can dodge the turrets (720mm artillery aren't exactly tracking good) and all various stuffs can happen from there. The rupture isn't tanked in a meaningfull way, and at best light missiles (?) and 6 meds drones are still doing some damage. Without big plates, gank > tank anyway. With big plates, well... we know :/ And yes, i know, this is not the real/test server... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: some more numbers: 0s: 148 shield; 8s: 2325 armor; 16s: 1750 armor; 24s: 1175 armor; 32s: 600 armor; 40s: 25 armor; ... and that is not accounting a med rep t2, misses/wreckings, weather and all. Edit2: I forgot to take the effect of gyro stabs t2 into account, dps should be multiplied by 1.79. See correction later in the thread. Sorry again  In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:55:00 -
[530] Oh, and just to add: 720mm t2 + 4 gyro t2 = 1104 pg; rupture with engineering 5 & RCU 2 = 1042 pg. That means that the advanced weapon upgrade skill is trained on top of all the level 5 skills to a high level and that there are still 3 mids & 2 high to fit.  Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:55:00 -
[531] Oh, and just to add: 720mm t2 + 4 gyro t2 = 1104 pg; rupture with engineering 5 & RCU 2 = 1042 pg. That means that the advanced weapon upgrade skill is trained on top of all the level 5 skills to a high level and that there are still 3 mids & 2 high to fit. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:18:00 -
[532]
The Rupture with navi IV has a base speed of 240 I believe. Ogre is 700, optimal 1k/4k falloff. If a keep at distance is used on the things even at base speed it will take around 46 seconds to close a gap of around 26k into falloff and 56 seconds till the ogres are circling at optimal. By the time they close a rack of 720s should be able to pick off what, 5? If you add an MWD or AF and drop some dmg modding and whatnot, I simply fail to see the issue :/ Keep at distance. Kill drones, then swoop to the mothership. Which is why I say to test it on SiSi...the numbers look mean, but in practice a rupture should be keeping distance and destroying on the move. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:18:00 -
[533]
The Rupture with navi IV has a base speed of 240 I believe. Ogre is 700, optimal 1k/4k falloff. If a keep at distance is used on the things even at base speed it will take around 46 seconds to close a gap of around 26k into falloff and 56 seconds till the ogres are circling at optimal. By the time they close a rack of 720s should be able to pick off what, 5? If you add an MWD or AF and drop some dmg modding and whatnot, I simply fail to see the issue :/ Keep at distance. Kill drones, then swoop to the mothership. Which is why I say to test it on SiSi...the numbers look mean, but in practice a rupture should be keeping distance and destroying on the move. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:36:00 -
[534]You know, mediums drones would be twice as fast, and bringing the drones into range is about as fast when mwd'ing. Besides, i believe that this very specific case would be yet another example of gank > tank when there is no plate involved, which isn't surprizing to me. Finally, in this example, the t2 rupture has more than 6 months of training, can't tank, has two empty high (i need confirmation on this), still aweful tracking... The thorax need 2 skills at level 5 (hull upgrades and drones) and a few level 4 (frig, ab, navigation, stuffs like that). to fit a mwd t1 you need 1 more rcu t2 & 1 rcu t1, you lose about 40% damage plus you end up with a setup that can't fight anything else at any range, or close to that.
As long as the right conclusion is made on the basis of the right experiment, i'm all for it. Now, i have no idea how to do that, the number of parameters, tactical decisions, and other factors involved (gank > tank when no plate involved, starting distance > 20 km = warp out, difference in skill...) is simply enormous. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:36:00 -
[535]You know, mediums drones would be twice as fast, and bringing the drones into range is about as fast when mwd'ing. Besides, i believe that this very specific case would be yet another example of gank > tank when there is no plate involved, which isn't surprizing to me. Finally, in this example, the t2 rupture has more than 6 months of training, can't tank, has two empty high (i need confirmation on this), still aweful tracking... The thorax need 2 skills at level 5 (hull upgrades and drones) and a few level 4 (frig, ab, navigation, stuffs like that). to fit a mwd t1 you need 1 more rcu t2 & 1 rcu t1, you lose about 40% damage plus you end up with a setup that can't fight anything else at any range, or close to that.
As long as the right conclusion is made on the basis of the right experiment, i'm all for it. Now, i have no idea how to do that, the number of parameters, tactical decisions, and other factors involved (gank > tank when no plate involved, starting distance > 20 km = warp out, difference in skill...) is simply enormous. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:42:00 -
[536] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 20:42:52 Rack of 750 is a deadweight because they take all possible grid, have low dps compared to other med guns and can't track a moon. Rupture with 750s will be dead to ceptor, af, you name it. While still wont be able to engage bs properly due to tracking at close ranges and bs fire at long ranges. On the other hand standard thorax is able to engage anytyhing fast and small with best frig long range guns, can attack anyhing bigger and slower with drones for dps close to full rupture gun rack, have 4-5 times of rupture armor and mwd to with a bonus to cap for dictating distance. Yes you can take out thorax with a specific setup, but its not a SISI BF1, you can fly a ship which can be good against anything or good again 1 cruiser. What your choice would be? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:42:00 -
[537] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 20:42:52 Rack of 750 is a deadweight because they take all possible grid, have low dps compared to other med guns and can't track a moon. Rupture with 750s will be dead to ceptor, af, you name it. While still wont be able to engage bs properly due to tracking at close ranges and bs fire at long ranges. On the other hand standard thorax is able to engage anytyhing fast and small with best frig long range guns, can attack anyhing bigger and slower with drones for dps close to full rupture gun rack, have 4-5 times of rupture armor and mwd to with a bonus to cap for dictating distance. Yes you can take out thorax with a specific setup, but its not a SISI BF1, you can fly a ship which can be good against anything or good again 1 cruiser. What your choice would be? |
 Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:49:00 -
[538] I didn't read all the thread, but arn't Gallente supposed to use drones as their thing!!! And as for a rax taking out a bs. Only if the bs pilot is hopeless. |
 Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:49:00 -
[539] I didn't read all the thread, but arn't Gallente supposed to use drones as their thing!!! And as for a rax taking out a bs. Only if the bs pilot is hopeless. |
 Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:51:00 -
[540]
Seems like I also have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 30 .. 38 :: one page | |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page | |
Originally by: Muad 'dib
| Copyright © 2006-2025, Chribba - OMG Labs. All Rights Reserved. - perf 0,14s, ref 20251027/2301 EVE-Online™ and Eve imagery © CCP. |
| COPYRIGHT NOTICE EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website. |