EVE Search - Reduce Thoraxes bay to 100m3

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Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2005.08.24 12:45:00 - [331] Originally by: Dragon Slave Quote: Battlecruisers cost ~4x as much, are they 4x more effective?...I seriously doubt it. What kind of reasoning is that? Can a battleship beat 250+ frigates? Ofcourse not, it's a matter of how much ISK you're willing to pay for extra HP and firepower. Of course if you didn't snip out the entire post you would know what I was talking about.. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Apoll	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:00:00 - [332] Originally by: Lyticus Edited by: Lyticus on 24/08/2005 11:15:15 I think that a step in the right direction would be to reduce the thorax (EDIT: and ALL cruisers) to MEDIUM Drones only, that would make the Vexor viable, while solving quite a lot of the problem with the thorax having huge DPS. I also think 1600mm plates should be limited to battlecruisers and higher, and the rax should receive a powergrid/cpu bonus. I can't fit even THREE of the biggest med blasters on my thorax, pretty dumb considering its a 'gunboat' My two cents. - Lyticus Signed regarding the Medium drones and the PG boost. But leave the platings and the rest as they are. Not many people have 60m spare to equip and fly BC or 200m+ fly BS.
Apoll Amarr Eagles Nest	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:00:00 - [333] Originally by: Lyticus Edited by: Lyticus on 24/08/2005 11:15:15 I think that a step in the right direction would be to reduce the thorax (EDIT: and ALL cruisers) to MEDIUM Drones only, that would make the Vexor viable, while solving quite a lot of the problem with the thorax having huge DPS. I also think 1600mm plates should be limited to battlecruisers and higher, and the rax should receive a powergrid/cpu bonus. I can't fit even THREE of the biggest med blasters on my thorax, pretty dumb considering its a 'gunboat' My two cents. - Lyticus Signed regarding the Medium drones and the PG boost. But leave the platings and the rest as they are. Not many people have 60m spare to equip and fly BC or 200m+ fly BS.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:21:00 - [334] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25 Originally by: AlleyKat The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:21:00 - [335] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25 Originally by: AlleyKat The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:23:00 - [336] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25 Originally by: AlleyKat The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. thats Bull dude
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:23:00 - [337] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25 Originally by: AlleyKat The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. thats Bull dude
Teles666	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:34:00 - [338] Oh god not another nerf bat :( Every time I train up for something they bloody nerf it back to the stone age. Hows about this - instead of constantly nerfing things, make other things better and give people more options to play with. Give, not take.
Teles666 Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:34:00 - [339] Oh god not another nerf bat :( Every time I train up for something they bloody nerf it back to the stone age. Hows about this - instead of constantly nerfing things, make other things better and give people more options to play with. Give, not take. --- Unnfered Forever!! -Teles666
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:39:00 - [340] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 13:43:40 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Naughty Boy Telling that the thorax is fine because it his how ccp designed it is a blatant provocation as we all know that only *****ing made ccp revert the change they made (halving the drone bay for balance's sake). Halving the drone bay will not fix any balance issues. Plain and simple. If any "nerf" needs to take place, it's the ability of a cruiser to mount battleship sized armor with no penalty. Try this out some time: have an un-plated thorax run at you on mwd from, say, 30km away. Open up with your moa. See what happens. Only a VERY bad rax pilot would lose his ship to this. Also, this is only one scenario, and simply putting one ship against one other is no good measure of one being actually stronger or overpowered for that matter. The rax is overpowered because it can fight and easily win way more scenarios then any other ship and that with only one setup. Put it in situations against multiple frigates, cruisers ,inties, af, HAC's, BC, jammers, long range, short range, drones, smartbombers, etc. You'll likely see it outperforms all other cruisers by far. It will even likely outperform HACs and BS in many situations where the other cruisers will not. My brother flies one and I as a Caldari would not even survive half of what he can pull off and that with only one setup. He can fight and win from multiple frigates to BC, while still being able to easily get out if necessary because of the insane tank and MWD combo. IRL having one ship that performs so well in so many situations would be nice, in a game it's unbalanced. People trying to deny it either are flying one, or have never flew in PvP against one while themselves not in something REALLY stronger like a Raven, Deimos or something else costing 10 times more. (or they are just ignorant trolls ). - 200m3 dronebay with 150-200 DPS potential - very good tank (even without plate) - additional high DPS with blasters - enough medslots for effective PvP & MWD - decent at small long range encounters (MWD bonus & drones) - can fight while nossed or jammed. And while there might be ships that might be better tanks, better at long range, or have more medslots, it's the fact this ship has the whole package what makes it so overpowered. Also on the plate issue: that causes inbalance between classes and the 'haves' and 'havenots'. NOT between the rax and the other cruisers. So let's keep that for another thread. Spacerats recruiting!
Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:39:00 - [341] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 13:43:40 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Naughty Boy Telling that the thorax is fine because it his how ccp designed it is a blatant provocation as we all know that only *****ing made ccp revert the change they made (halving the drone bay for balance's sake). Halving the drone bay will not fix any balance issues. Plain and simple. If any "nerf" needs to take place, it's the ability of a cruiser to mount battleship sized armor with no penalty. Try this out some time: have an un-plated thorax run at you on mwd from, say, 30km away. Open up with your moa. See what happens. Only a VERY bad rax pilot would lose his ship to this. Also, this is only one scenario, and simply putting one ship against one other is no good measure of one being actually stronger or overpowered for that matter. The rax is overpowered because it can fight and easily win way more scenarios then any other ship and that with only one setup. Put it in situations against multiple frigates, cruisers ,inties, af, HAC's, BC, jammers, long range, short range, drones, smartbombers, etc. You'll likely see it outperforms all other cruisers by far. It will even likely outperform HACs and BS in many situations where the other cruisers will not. My brother flies one and I as a Caldari would not even survive half of what he can pull off and that with only one setup. He can fight and win from multiple frigates to BC, while still being able to easily get out if necessary because of the insane tank and MWD combo. IRL having one ship that performs so well in so many situations would be nice, in a game it's unbalanced. People trying to deny it either are flying one, or have never flew in PvP against one while themselves not in something REALLY stronger like a Raven, Deimos or something else costing 10 times more. (or they are just ignorant trolls ). - 200m3 dronebay with 150-200 DPS potential - very good tank (even without plate) - additional high DPS with blasters - enough medslots for effective PvP & MWD - decent at small long range encounters (MWD bonus & drones) - can fight while nossed or jammed. And while there might be ships that might be better tanks, better at long range, or have more medslots, it's the fact this ship has the whole package what makes it so overpowered. Also on the plate issue: that causes inbalance between classes and the 'haves' and 'havenots'. NOT between the rax and the other cruisers. So let's keep that for another thread.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:57:00 - [342] "light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones." Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and still do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser. "The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement." How much damage would be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..? "As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage." Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them...
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.08.24 13:57:00 - [343] "light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones." Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and still do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser. "The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement." How much damage would be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..? "As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage." Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them...
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:02:00 - [344] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 14:03:27 Originally by: Nyxus THE SOLUTIONÖ Reduce Thorax Dronebay to Deimos Size add 3300 armor to non-caldari cruisers Add equivalent shield to Caldari Cruisers Add Mass to Plating equivalent to sizing Look ma I fixed all the problems at once! Cruisers viable! Thorax balanced! Plated ceptor stupidity fixed! World poverty abolished! Well....it fixes most of the problems. Quote the The SolutionÖ and sign to show your support! I like it! Though an additional boost of say 50 percent of what normally is the maximum fitted plate/extender for all other classes to keep it in line with the cruisers. Maybe a bit more for the Caldari. There is the needed HP boost, right there! The added mass (and the resulting effect on agility and AB and MWD is a nice find imho). Maybe give the Brutix 200m3 drones or even 250M3 for that matter (without dronecontrol bonus), since that's a piece of crap right now. Spacerats recruiting!
Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:02:00 - [345] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 14:03:27 Originally by: Nyxus THE SOLUTIONÖ Reduce Thorax Dronebay to Deimos Size add 3300 armor to non-caldari cruisers Add equivalent shield to Caldari Cruisers Add Mass to Plating equivalent to sizing Look ma I fixed all the problems at once! Cruisers viable! Thorax balanced! Plated ceptor stupidity fixed! World poverty abolished! Well....it fixes most of the problems. Quote the The SolutionÖ and sign to show your support! I like it! Though an additional boost of say 50 percent of what normally is the maximum fitted plate/extender for all other classes to keep it in line with the cruisers. Maybe a bit more for the Caldari. There is the needed HP boost, right there! The added mass (and the resulting effect on agility and AB and MWD is a nice find imho). Maybe give the Brutix 200m3 drones or even 250M3 for that matter (without dronecontrol bonus), since that's a piece of crap right now.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:03:00 - [346] "and the guns you should be looking at are the tech 2 light neutrons everyone runs on there rax, you'll find there almost identical dps to Heavy Electrons" * light electron blaster II: 18.27 dps * heavy electron blaster I with Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps (27% more) * heavy electron blaster II with Thorax bonus: 30.80 dps (68% more) hardly 'almost identical' but then certainly not worth giving up battleship-sized plate, when mounting that plate doesn't actually cost you anything in terms of the performance drawbacks...
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:03:00 - [347] "and the guns you should be looking at are the tech 2 light neutrons everyone runs on there rax, you'll find there almost identical dps to Heavy Electrons" * light electron blaster II: 18.27 dps * heavy electron blaster I with Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps (27% more) * heavy electron blaster II with Thorax bonus: 30.80 dps (68% more) hardly 'almost identical' but then certainly not worth giving up battleship-sized plate, when mounting that plate doesn't actually cost you anything in terms of the performance drawbacks...
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:20:00 - [348] Originally by: W0lverine Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25 Originally by: AlleyKat The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. thats Bull dude How is it bull... I start out with frigate 4, have cruiser 1 within the next 2 hours... cruiser 3 within 2 days or so? I can't remember but I gave 3 for good measure. Small guns aren't as skill dependant and mechanic and repair systems don't have to be up there. The PG of the thorax without enginnering over lvl 2 will allow you for the plate setup + small guns and drones ins't that hard to get to lvl 3 which isn't that far from the MAX of most cruisers bay cap. By far this is severly overbalanced in much the same way kessie + cruise were back in the day for alts. The only thing is in the same time to get cruise missiles then... you coudl get drones to +8 heavies. IE... an alt is able to replicate an age old EVE flaw of imbalance with time investment. But a Thorax is by far an effective cruiser at 1 weeks skill as a two month old Caracal, MOA, or rupture. The ONLY other ship that can claim such low SP sink to get effective is a maller.... and it doesn't grow exponentially with skills as a Thorax because of the Drone bay. Care to tell me what is bull about that? jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:20:00 - [349] Originally by: W0lverine Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25 Originally by: AlleyKat The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. thats Bull dude How is it bull... I start out with frigate 4, have cruiser 1 within the next 2 hours... cruiser 3 within 2 days or so? I can't remember but I gave 3 for good measure. Small guns aren't as skill dependant and mechanic and repair systems don't have to be up there. The PG of the thorax without enginnering over lvl 2 will allow you for the plate setup + small guns and drones ins't that hard to get to lvl 3 which isn't that far from the MAX of most cruisers bay cap. By far this is severly overbalanced in much the same way kessie + cruise were back in the day for alts. The only thing is in the same time to get cruise missiles then... you coudl get drones to +8 heavies. IE... an alt is able to replicate an age old EVE flaw of imbalance with time investment. But a Thorax is by far an effective cruiser at 1 weeks skill as a two month old Caracal, MOA, or rupture. The ONLY other ship that can claim such low SP sink to get effective is a maller.... and it doesn't grow exponentially with skills as a Thorax because of the Drone bay. Care to tell me what is bull about that? Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:24:00 - [350] Originally by: Teles666 Oh god not another nerf bat :( Every time I train up for something they bloody nerf it back to the stone age. Hows about this - instead of constantly nerfing things, make other things better and give people more options to play with. Give, not take. If you are an older player... don't train up things that are overpowered for the stakes in exploiting a game flaw? m'kay. If your a noob then you have no grounds to talk. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:24:00 - [351] Originally by: Teles666 Oh god not another nerf bat :( Every time I train up for something they bloody nerf it back to the stone age. Hows about this - instead of constantly nerfing things, make other things better and give people more options to play with. Give, not take. If you are an older player... don't train up things that are overpowered for the stakes in exploiting a game flaw? m'kay. If your a noob then you have no grounds to talk. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Boragunda	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:31:00 - [352] Originally by: W0lverine as current size doesnt make sence and makes it way 2 powerfull thx It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. You Exodus nubs stop crying.
Boragunda	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:31:00 - [353] Originally by: W0lverine as current size doesnt make sence and makes it way 2 powerfull thx It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. You Exodus nubs stop crying.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:53:00 - [354] Originally by: Boragunda It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. Awesome, every race has got one HAC worth flying, but gallente get 3 for the same skill . Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:53:00 - [355] Originally by: Boragunda It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. Awesome, every race has got one HAC worth flying, but gallente get 3 for the same skill . Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:56:00 - [356] Originally by: Boragunda Originally by: W0lverine as current size doesnt make sence and makes it way 2 powerfull thx It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. You Exodus nubs stop crying. exodus noob?
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.08.24 14:56:00 - [357] Originally by: Boragunda Originally by: W0lverine as current size doesnt make sence and makes it way 2 powerfull thx It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. You Exodus nubs stop crying. exodus noob?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.24 15:22:00 - [358] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Boragunda It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. Awesome, every race has got one HAC worth flying, but gallente get 3 for the same skill . Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Which is why people cry nerf when its just mere balancing. They want their cake and eat it too while they train for a Deimos or Ishtar. Except when they get there... they will find out they have been using the best of the three for months. Best in that its cheap, as powerful, and benefits from anything you train for the others equally. The only ship above a Thorax that can hold a cost/benefit/performance noodle in the Gallente line is a Dominix. Not even a mega is a worthwile investment for PvP over a rax unless you want it JUST for killing a thoraxes. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2005.08.24 15:22:00 - [359] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Boragunda It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. Awesome, every race has got one HAC worth flying, but gallente get 3 for the same skill . Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Which is why people cry nerf when its just mere balancing. They want their cake and eat it too while they train for a Deimos or Ishtar. Except when they get there... they will find out they have been using the best of the three for months. Best in that its cheap, as powerful, and benefits from anything you train for the others equally. The only ship above a Thorax that can hold a cost/benefit/performance noodle in the Gallente line is a Dominix. Not even a mega is a worthwile investment for PvP over a rax unless you want it JUST for killing a thoraxes. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Vathar	Posted - 2005.08.24 15:44:00 - [360] Originally by: Tobiaz People trying to deny it either are flying one, or have never flew in PvP against one while themselves not in something REALLY stronger like a Raven, Deimos or something else costing 10 times more. While I do believe that it's overpowered, I have to say that it CAN be beaten by a platerupture if you manage to kill its drones quickly (and go for berserkers/wasps first), but it requires some luck and a mistake will get you very dead ... ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway (\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !!

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