|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 38 :: [one page] | |
| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 W0lverine    |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:33:00 -
[1] as current size doesnt make sence and makes it way 2 powerfull thx |
 Stuart85 |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:40:00 -
[2] No, boost the Caldari, Amarr and Minmatar Tier 2 cruisers to the same level as the Rax. |
 W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:41:00 -
[3]
or that, but I dont think CCP have time/will to boost them, but then they can atleast nerf rax, just change 1 number , cant be that hard |
 Dust Puppy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:45:00 -
[4] Edited by: Dust Puppy on 22/08/2005 15:45:28 Nerf rax, then boost all Edit: And when I say nerf rax I mean nerf it's drone bay, boost all grid and cpu. Original Mr Floppyknickers sig |
Toaster Oven |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:53:00 -
[5] Nope. Please nerf Caracal. It can deal all types of damage at extreme ranges  |
 Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:56:00 -
[6] Nerf the dronebay and give it more pg/cpu whatever it needs to fit a decent rack of guns + mwd + light tank. Decent being ions. Then boost all the cruisers  ________________________________________________________ |
Liu Kaskakka |
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:59:00 -
[7] Nerf moa. |
 Eyeshadow |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:05:00 -
[8]
You'd have to boost deimos too though as that can only just fit ions with MWD + rep. If the rax can do it too why fly a 100mil ship when a 7mil one can do the same thing minus a second damage bonus? My Latest Vid: Linky |
 Fuazzole |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:05:00 -
[9] /cry |
Fuazzole |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:06:00 -
[10] Duramaler = uber rupture can be good caracal = top seller rax + smart bomb = cheeze |
 W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:08:00 -
[11]
|
 W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:09:00 -
[12]
for same reason you fly all other HAC? |
Theta9 |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:11:00 -
[13] WTF how many thorax nerf threads are we going to get THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE SHIP MAYBE YOU ALL SHOULD LEARN HOW TO FIGHT IT!!! I fly thoraxes and i must say that most people i fight against with it are stupid like uber uber stupid. DONT FIGHT THE THORAX FIGHT ITS FREKIN DRONES. thorax is laughable without drones so dont give me this "its so uber we cant beat it!" In a duramaller i can beat a thorax easy because I always always always destroy drones first. Lets compare cruisers now Rupture 6HI 3MED 5 LOW this is close to a thorax however 6HI instead of 5 and has options for launchers thorax doesnt. its also considerably faster and has more base powergrid though less cpu. Maller 6HI 3MED 6LOW this has 2 more slots than a thorax though this is offset by no drone bay. it has considerably more armor than a thorax and 150 more base powergrid and the same cpu as the thorax. though it only has 5 turrets like the thorax but 0 ammo consumption good cap lots of armor high pg for guns and tank MOA 6HI 4MED 4LOW again has options for missles and has a drone bay if only slight 50 more base PG AND CPU though is a rail platform more than blaster. THORAX 5HI 3MED 5LOW 5turrets the ONLY thing special about this ship is its mwd bonus and its 200M3 drone bay. you wana drop its drone bay to 100m3? fine then give me an extra med and low slot then ill be just fine about it but ill also need another 100pg drones are DESTROYABLE wich means that if you blow one up you decrease the dps of the ship no other ship has that weakness and without drones it is again a laughable ship at least. I do agree that 1600mm plates are overpowered on cruiser ships but DO NOT TOUCH THE FREKIN THORAX!! you will find that if you make putting 1600mm plates on cruisers nearly imposible or so penalized it becomes impractical that the thorax will become more in line with other cruisers. the thorax has ALWAYS had this drone bay it is its signiture and if its been in the game for so long who are we to say take it away now. my proposition is to instead of plates giving a velocity penalty they instead give a mass penalty to plates such as 1600mm plate 10,000,000 mass (depending on type some heavier some lighter) 800MM plate 4,000,000 mass (again depending on type) 400mm plate 2,000,000 mass (same as above) 200MM plate 750,000 mass 100mm plate 250,000 mass 50mm plate 50,000 mass this makes fitting a 1600mm plate on a rax almost double its total mass screwing its agility badly as well as its speed boost from a MWD this probably wont stop thoraxes from puting them on but now you should be able to outrun a rax with just an AB. if you dont fit the 1600mm plate yourself. While a 800mm plate is feasable but still incurse penalties |
 Rick Dentill |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:16:00 -
[14] IT took me half way through this thread to realise you were talking about the drone bay.  _______ Save me Jebus! http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/dd.php |
 W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:16:00 -
[15] Theta9, get a clue |
 Theta9 |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:25:00 -
[16] lol i do have a clue i see a ship with fewer slots than every other tier 3 cruiser lower pg and cpu than most others and lower armor/shield hp than the other cruiser (though not quite by much)only slightly faster than MOA and MALLER dispite being a close range ship. again if you want to increase the thorax slot's and pg and cpu by all means go ahead means my deimos will be all that much more uber (i dream of 5 neutron II's without pdu's) cause there going to have to increase that ships stats to be in line with the thorax. |
 Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:35:00 -
[17]
Ideally, i'd like the Deimos to be able to mount a rack of neutrons in a viable setup. If a weapon isn't used that means it's a product of bad game design. Practically speaking, i'm not so sure thats a good idea. The Deimos is a fine HAC and this would be a significant boost. I'm all for boosts but i think all the other HAC's (no not the Ishtar) would need some love to It gets complicated ________________________________________________________ |
Joshua Foiritain |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:37:00 -
[18] Rax indeed is overpowered, put it next to a Vigilant and laugh at all the people who paid money for one  However, i do agree that all t1 cruisers should be like the rax in terms of overall strength. As it is the Thorax is placed quite high above the rest though [Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
 Noriath |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:44:00 -
[19] The Thorax already got nerfed badly with the changes to MWD that make it completly suicidal to use one in combat. Now one of its bonuses is completly useless because you can't use an MWD in combat anyways. |
slothe |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:51:00 -
[20] yawn |
 TuRtLe HeAd |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:52:00 -
[21] Increase the Vexors Drone Bay to allow it to carry lots of heavy drones. And Leave the Thorax as it is. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:54:00 -
[22] I'm not training for an HAC, i'm training for a thorax. Battleship armor + battleship weapons + frig defense in a disposable cruiser made me win eve. \o/ Nobody fits smartbombs in empire, or please do so for the entertainement value. And shooting 8 heavy drones takes long enough not to be a realistic option, unless in a 1 vs 1 situation which is not even close to frequent. And save the: "gallente is the drone race, it should have more drones" or the "drones are a close range weapon, hence gallente should have more and bigger and nastier and...". 45km is hardly close range for cruisers, 8 heavy drones is a battle ship weapon. Yet they track like frig guns :/ Whining against the intention of ccp to adjust the drone bay to a balanced level saved the thorax once from being put in line to the other tier 3 cruisers, i believe it can save it once again, so keep up saying that the thorax is fine, pwetty pwease, and we shall win again. And yes, cruisers in general need a boost, but in the meanwhile can't we acknowledge the obvious about the drone bay ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
DARTHxFREE |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:13:00 -
[23] if the rax is over powered,..why dont u train + buy + use one it dont take much. >:-E3 |
Noriath |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:17:00 -
[24] How can you tell the difference between something that's really overpowered and random nerf whiners? If something is really overpowered everyone uses it and only a few people complain. If it's just nerf whiners only a few people use it, and everyone complains. |
Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:20:00 -
[25]
Brilliant idea  ________________________________________________________ |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:22:00 -
[26] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 17:22:20 @darth: sound logic, everybody in the same boat 4tw. @noriath: 1. point at various killboards and laugh. 2. who said that a thorax isn't even overpowered without mwd ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Noriath |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:25:00 -
[27] Thoraxes do most of their damage with drones, you can't just take them away and say it would balance the game, especially if one of the Thoraxes ship bonuses is completly useless. |
Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:28:00 -
[28]
Thorax does most of it's damage with drones, how can you not see that as being completely broken? It's a blaster boat ffs, it's suppose to be doing it's damage with blasters. Nerf the dronebay and increase pg/cpu to better accomodate blasters. If you disagree, you're wrong. ________________________________________________________ |
Jatonix |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:32:00 -
[29] Tbh, now that missle have been nerfed i think that the drone by on a rax shud be nerfed also, its just stupid in some cases the damage that think can deal out and TANK is diabolical. Like this Sig..? Visit http://photobucket.com/albums/y247/Jatonix |
Jatonix |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:34:00 -
[30]
TBVFH you havent even taken a look at the vigilants bonuss, it has a extra mid slot, its get 25% bonus to cap recharge, it has more armor, more shield more strcuture its tougher, it just done have asilly sized drone bay, i still a fitted viglant would tear apart a thorax Like this Sig..? Visit http://photobucket.com/albums/y247/Jatonix |
Noriath |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:38:00 -
[31]
Can't disagree with that to be honest, the Thorax doesn't need a nerf, it needs a shift in stats from the uber-dronecruiser to the fast atack blastership that it should be. For one the MWD bonus has to be changed, either make it so that the bonus reduces the sig increase so that there is none by level 5, or swich it to something that helps the guns... PG/CPU is another issue, adjusting them up as dronebay goes down is important if you are going to put the thorax in line with the other ships... Fact is, that you can't just reduce the dronebay to balance the Thorax, since as a gunship it's just not on par with other tier 3 cruisers. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:47:00 -
[32] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 17:50:07 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 17:49:29
Why ? Besides, nobody said "remove all the drones", why can't it use "only" 10 medium drones on top of its guns ? That thoraxes do most of their damage with 8 heavy drones is exactly the problem, like it or not. Briefly, cruisers do have to fit a plate to me somehow survivable in "battleship & ganking" world. All tier 3 cruisers can do it. They can also fit the smallest cruiser guns on top of that. Maybe not the thorax, but that doesn't matter as the thorax, unlike other tier 3 cruisers, has 8 heavy drones to do the damage. That's more than half the battleships have, in case you wonder. Now, a cruiser with close range cruiser guns might aswell fit frigate guns (exception being the dual 180mm AC because of how they track and how projectile are balanced) as they don't lose significant damage output, but gain tracking. This is at the expense of range, but cruisers do not need range in the "battleship & ganking" world. Downgrading the guns they also gain significant survivability vs frigs and interceptors. What is then completely wrong is that, fitting all tier 3 cruisers to be the most versatile on the battlefield, you have: maller: more armor resistance and a medium nos, maybe two; rupture: bonus for the guns, though the bonus are needed because that's how projectiles are balanced. Or, fitted maller-like, a nos and no extra armor resistance. A tad more speed, though not much. moa: an extra mid slot, for EW only. thorax: a battleship weapon, 8 heavy drones, that still operates when the thorax is jammed and nossed. There is no trade-off most of the time, 8 heavy drones are much better than the extra armor resistance, the nos, or the extra mid slot. Of course, that's considering that the cruiser fit a battleship plate. Now, there is basically no reason not to do so. And i am not sure at all that the same argument doesn't hold even when not taking the plates into account, as even then there wouldn't be much point in not fitting frig guns on cruisers. They are just more versatile on the battlefield. And again there, frig guns + 8 heavy drones is too good.
Not more useless than the projectile bonuses that projectile "needs" to be on par, or the laughable "shield boost" bonus of the moa or even the range bonus. The maller armor resistance bonus is awesome, but that's about it. |
Douglas McCracken |
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:59:00 -
[33] Agreed nerf the bay, yarrgh  |
Layrex |
Posted - 2005.08.22 18:03:00 -
[34] There is no getting round it, ccp WILL nerf the Rax eventually. It's just atm too capable for such a cheap ship. ------------------------------ |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 18:07:00 -
[35] "Thoraxes do most of their damage with drones, you can't just take them away and say it would balance the game (..)" Isn't that because people slap the battleship sized plate on the Thorax, fit tiny guns that the remaining grid allows, and rely on the drones to do the damage dealing part..? ^^;; (which is hardly surprising when you consider 8 heavy drones deal as much damage as 5 heavy ions with Thorax damage bonus... why do the ship that already can do devastating damage with guns, need that damage output doubled thanks to all drones? >>;; |
Noriath |
Posted - 2005.08.22 18:19:00 -
[36] Yea, except fotr the fact that drones acctually get to deal damage, blasters have such ridiculously short range that they just aren't practical... |
Kye Kenshin |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:06:00 -
[37] If the rax has always been like this why has everyone decided to whine about it just now? Is it bitter missiles users? Also why does everyone want to deny new players a pvp capable ship thats affordable and easily trainable or do we want everyone to train skills for 6 months till they can use a T2 ships or bs? Anyway as long as you increase pg and cpu you can nerf the drone bay all you want otherwise the rax will become useless |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:08:00 -
[38]
I use MWD in combat, your point? |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:08:00 -
[39]
I do use one |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:09:00 -
[40]
|
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:09:00 -
[41]
so, deimos, and blasterthron sux? and got to rely on drones? |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:10:00 -
[42]
What does that say about your courage. Grow a pair m'kay. Swap the Vexor and Thorax Drone bay and be done with it. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:10:00 -
[43]
If you weren't a noob you'd know that this issue has been brought up many many times in the past ________________________________________________________ |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:10:00 -
[44]
this have been posted many times again and again, and CCP just ignor it |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:16:00 -
[45]
Sorry but you haven't been around. When Castor came out with the new gun changes the Thorax got reduced to 1000 drone bay ( which yes would be 100 now ) and so many people complained it never maid it past a few days or so as far as I can remember. So many carebears cried because they coudln't mine low sec anymore that the devs were FORCED to leave it alone. Now its the PvP nubtards that are carebearing along with the miners because its WAY overpowered. I know its hard to see a good ship get nerfed but its been LONG time coming and it really makes the Vexor obsolete and worthless in comparison. No other Cruiser class has this problem. Caracal's are as popular as MOA, Stabber are as used as Rupture, Omens and Maller have their own places in the sky. The vex is outclassed by the thorax because the Nublars decided that having a mini battleship was good for balance. Oh yeah it makes the brutix a worthless pile too. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
ThehappyOne |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:23:00 -
[46] i think it is too powerful, i would be happy with 150m3 rax drone bay |
Harry Voyager |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:34:00 -
[47] Yes! We must make all battle be pure turret gankings! Death to diversity! |
Death Merchant |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:38:00 -
[48] The thorax actually works. Thank you all and have a blessed day. |
Noriath |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:38:00 -
[49]
Blasterthron does suck. Yea it deals insane amount of damage when its set up for ganking, but the range is still so low that it's only really good when combat-warped by a covops. And Deimos with blasters doesn't suck because: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level 50% damage and 50% falloff increase. - Since a blasters range is mostly determined by its falloff... No suckage. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:39:00 -
[50]
When a ship is overpowered, everybody ends up flying it... so much for the diversity you pretend to be defending. I know, broad thinking is overrated. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:42:00 -
[51]
[sarcasm]So, you did notice too[/sarcasm] Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Sorja |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:48:00 -
[52] I see more and more people flying Thoraxes, and it's good. I wish other cruisers could be as usefull though, and some are like the Maller or Stabber for example. Stop it with the nerfage madness already. |
Jim Raynor |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:59:00 -
[53] should be reduced, the fact the deimos has a 100m3 drone bay proves to me that the thorax is imbalanced and should have its drone bay at least halved. the vexor is supposed to be the drone-oriented gallante cruiser not the thorax, if the thorax needs more fitting space for blasters, i see no problem with boosting that, as long as its drone bay is nerfed.. more drone space than most battleships is just silly imo. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:59:00 -
[54] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 20:02:52
Okay. You're the one complaining that caldari HAC are sub par and not much on the pvp battlefield. You don't call for nerf, just for a boost of the HAC you can fly. It's easier to put 2 or 3 ships on par with 5 or 6 others than the other way around, isn't it ? Right, let's improve some cruisers stats across the board, hp or sig radius for instance, once this drone bay is downsized. How are other cruisers going to be more popular if one is just god-mode when compared to the others ? To improve other cruisers to the level of the thorax, they need to get 2 or 3 BS sized guns on top of their current stats... so much for balance. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.22 19:59:00 -
[55]
|
Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 20:06:00 -
[56]
Uhhh Vexor? ________________________________________________________ |
Hllaxiu |
Posted - 2005.08.22 20:08:00 -
[57] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 22/08/2005 20:08:55 My problem with the thorax is that the relationship between the "new" gallente combat ships doesn't really make much sense: Thorax, Deimos, Brutix, Megathron (progression of size and not firepower). By drone space: 200, 100, 100, 250 By another metric things go really wacky - the Megathron and the Deimos are FAR more able to carry out their intended role than the Thorax and Brutix - even considernig that one is a tech 2 cruiser and one is a Battleship, the Thorax and Brutix used as they were "intended" is basically complete suicide. Speaking of Gallente cruisers - does anyone use the Vexor? It seems (to me) to have all the fitting problems of the dominix without its drone firepower or med slot ewar and tanking capabilities. Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Eyeshadow |
Posted - 2005.08.22 21:17:00 -
[58] MWD bonus is not useless in PVP and neither are blasters. Noriath, please shut up. Thanks Heres what i think should happen: Rax bay gets nerfed to 100m3. It gets 100 grid increase and 40 CPU base. This should allow it to squeeze on a rack of ions with a mwd and a light tank, the way a blaster boat should. Deimos should then get a slight increase in speed (by 10/15 m/s) OR a slight reduction in mass (10/15%). It would be nice to give it a little extra grid so it could fit a mix of neuts and ions but this may make it totally uber in the DPS stakes Brutix should get 150 extra grid and 50 extra CPU, allowing it to atleast fit a mix of electrons + ions with a mwd and a light tank. Its drone bay should be increased to 150m3 Vexor is a seriously meh, but if u give it 200m3 drone bay every1 will stick 8 hvys in it and it'll become the new rax, plus its bonus will be useless. with 150m3 it has to carry 15 mediums, which means with its rather crap fitting, its a bit of a **** ship Oh and the ishtar should be given 50 more grid and 30 more cpu so i can fit 3 nos, 2 guns and loads of EW. Thanks (joke btw)My Latest Vid: Linky |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.22 21:49:00 -
[59]
You suggesting that the thorax be given more grid and cpu but not the deimos? |
Eyeshadow |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:13:00 -
[60]
erm i may be caldari by race, but im a gallente specialist when it comes to ships My Latest Vid: Linky |
FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:14:00 -
[61] the only way I would support my favorite shiped being nerfed is if they give that drone bay they take from the rax and give it to the brutix, and give both ships a cpu/pg boost need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:20:00 -
[62] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 22:25:31
Only battleships can realistically use smartbombs against heavy drones. Only a fool would use smartbombs in empire. The fact that you can come with a setup against another doesn't change the fact that the ship is blatantly overpowered. Finally, do i have to make a gallente alt to assess this problem ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: nevermind, troll food removed. |
Hellraiza666 |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:26:00 -
[63] Maybe if u used medium electrons on it you would see its main fire power is its blasters not drones heavy electron II with a dmg mod and gall cruiser 4, i do almost double the dmg of my drones with blastersAlso boost other cruisers instead of nerfing rax.. Ideas : Maller -> increase armor Caracal -> give it an extra med or low ?! Rupture -> Bit more speed? Blackbird -> Change bonus from range to higher chance of jamming vexor -> 2500m3 drone bay but take a slot away?? Moa -> 5th turret etc. etc. list can go on, notice why people use thorax's??? Because u actually HAVE A CHANCE in 1, if u nerf a rax, all cruisers will be pathetic unless against frigs.... -------------------------------------------- In War There Are No Runners Up... Image by Denrace |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:37:00 -
[64] The thorax is an interesting ship - it's one of the few cruisers which are viable in pvp - thus it should be nerfed. Ships should not be nerfed simply because they aren't t2 or take 5 months of training to used effectively - remember for every hardcore pro in this game - there are 5 newbies like me who like to play around. We don't have the massive amount of isk or the SP to fly ubert2 HACs or some battleship - however, we still want at the very least a chance to be halfway decent in battle. Right now - the Thorax gives us that chance, to be able to contribute to a fight or a battle without having a seperate alt dedicated to making isk and training for a couple years. The Thorax is not the problem; the problem is that Cruisers right now are woefully underpowered in pvp. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:51:00 -
[65] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 22:51:37 Simply, not.
First, halving the drone bay of the thorax, is not incompatible with a boost to all the cruisers, including the thorax. Ok ? Secondly, heavy drones are a battleship weapon. 8 of them account for multiple battleship guns, and their tracking is awesome. In order to boost other cruisers to the same level, you would have to give the caracal some cruise launchers, or the maller should get some megapulses. How about no ?
Not very fond of those for various reasons, especially the vexor.
Ok. Other cruisers are pathetic unless against frigs. They can't possibly be pathetic against themselves, so i guess the only thing they are currently not pathetic against are the battleships and hac's. In that quote alone, you can see very clearly where is the problem with the thorax. Thanks for proving my point.Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Shaemell Buttleson |
Posted - 2005.08.22 22:58:00 -
[66]
In a recent corp tourney I used a Thorax setup with nosferatus and tanked it to hell. I felt mean using it against the other cruisers in the match as it was IMO too powerfull and owned everyone in 1 on 1. Admitedly we are not all fantastic pvp'ers but it owned a Maller, a Moa and several ruptures piloted by players with a decent amount of skill and experience. The setup I used could be neutralised but not really by conventional setups. The amount of dronespace is alot for a cruiser when you think that only half the battleships have as much or more dronespace. Also you tell me what other cruisers can set up a full rack of the best type medium guns they excell with as well without lowslot mods to increase the grid or cpu. None can afaik and if they do I bet they are severely nerfed their setup. |
Cookie |
Posted - 2005.08.22 23:02:00 -
[67] you're not really talking about the thorax ... ... or the dronebay ... or about some nerfing you talk about the dronelag, aren't you ? |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.22 23:12:00 -
[68]
Nobody said that, and if you are trying to make people believe that it was said... well, though it may work, the confusion you bring isn't shedding light into the debate.
I'm probably as much of a noobie as yourself. Again, you are purposefully bringing confusion in the debate. Nobody said that the thorax had to be nerfed because it is not t2 or the other things you write. That would be silly and i'm afraid, you want people to believe that the arguments are silly, on basis of the confusion that you bring.
How does it relate to the fact that the cruiser is carrying a battleship weapon, something of the kind of - as i said in a previous post - cruise launchers on a caracal or megapulses on a maller.
Look, your confusion again. How does the fact that one has an alt relate to the debate ? The thorax, with a plate, has battleship armor + battleship weapon + anti frig defense, and is only marginally affected by nos in his damage output, as opposed to other cruisers - except the rupture and caracal - and electronic warfare - except the caracal. With or without the plate, this unique combinaison make it completely overpowered, as compared to its class, and also as compared to other classes. It is completely outside of the general game design in so many ways: - no real tradeoff between damage output and tank (thanks to oversized plate, but ALSO thanks to the fact that it doesn't give up much by not carrying guns... all the fitting resources can be dedicated to tanking). - carry a weapon not designed for its class (8 heavy drones), actually equal to several battleship guns/launchers in damage output and range, and also gifted by a particulary awesome tracking. - can dedicate the gun hardpoints to frig and cruiser defense, thus in fact covering with weapons of the right size every class of ship there is in the game. And the list goes on.
Okay. The whole thread explains why, even if "cruisers right now are woefully underpowered in pvp", the thorax IS a problem. Why don't you come with an argument, rather than a bold statement of the kind ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Koth Krakenworth |
Posted - 2005.08.22 23:43:00 -
[69] Edited by: Koth Krakenworth on 22/08/2005 23:43:35 Cruisers should kill frigates and other cruisers. If they can do that, then it's a good cruiser. If it can take on battleships and hac's, it's overpowered. Period. A cheap ship like a cruiser shouldn't be able to match a ship ten times more expensive. Simple logic. Cruisers need not to be better. Instead, make sure the Thorax is on even terms with the other high-end cruiers, like the rupture and caracal so that a fight against them will be rather even. When they're balanced like that they shouldn't need much more attention from CCP. "It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes." |
Ticondrius |
Posted - 2005.08.22 23:54:00 -
[70] Nerf the Celestis "If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault." |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.23 01:04:00 -
[71] It's been said numerous times before. Swap the Brutix drone bay (100 m3) with the Thorax drone bay (200 m3) and you kill two birds with one stone. If the Thorax users want to whine about it, toss them either a dozen or so more m/s to their speed or a bit more powergrid. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 01:37:00 -
[72] Thorax isn't overpowered- and its dronebay isn't too big. People are just too stupid to figure out how to fight against them. It really isn't that hard. |
Hllaxiu |
Posted - 2005.08.23 02:48:00 -
[73]
Its drone bay is larger than the Gallente cruiser carrier, the Battlecruiser and the tech 2 version of the Thorax. It should be brought in line with other Gallente ships, and it should be boosted to work as a blasterboat in a cruiser vs cruiser environment. Its not that the Thorax is overpowered or underpowered, its just that it doesn't feel right. The Vexor is the cruiser drone carrier - not the Thorax, and thats what should be changed. Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 07:46:00 -
[74]
*gasp* It is not nice to question people's intelligence. It is not even clever to do it in a way that shows that you didn't understand most of what was said previously. Nobody said that there is no counter to a thorax. Nobody even said that another cruiser cannot win in a 1 vs 1 situation against a thorax. Get it ? The problem is not that people do not know how to fight a thorax. The problem is that the drone bay of the thorax is to big to be a cruiser weapon, it is a battleship weapon in damage and range. The tracking is more like a very good cruiser weapon or a frigate weapon than a battleship weapon. The range, 45 km, isn't close range in the frigate and cruiser world, it is not even mid range but long range in the cruiser world. The damage output of drones alone is what most battleships do at that range with all their guns, without using damage mods. And that is with much more skills dedicated to gunnery than the thorax pilot even has to have in "drone operation". Now, who does look stupid. You sir, do have a big mouth but not what it takes to back it up. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Seramis |
Posted - 2005.08.23 09:29:00 -
[75]
Oh common, if a thorax user sends its drones to a target 45km away the opponent either kills the half of the drones or kills the thorax or has more than enough time to move away. If a BS does the same damage with all their guns at 45km like 10 heavy drones then the BS user has all Skills only or statistics, at level 1 or so. With average Large Weapon skills (to be able to use 10 Heavy Drones you need maxed good drone skills) u do more damage, u can kill the Rax before its drones arrive at you. Gallente is the 'Drone Race' so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with extraordinary drone space. The Arbitrator, an Amarr ship, can hold 6 Heavy Drones, and you want to decrease the drone bay of a drone race ship to 100 (4 heavy drones). Naughty Boy you better should use your intelligence before you post. Regards Seramis Proud Caldarian |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.23 09:39:00 -
[76] That whole point is retarded. No sane Thorax pilot launches his drones out at 45 km. You carry your drones to the target. So stop using that as defense. Problem with the Thorax is its ability to put out 170 DPS through its drones, another 90 DPS through Light Neutron Blasters, while having 5k+ HP with a plate fitted, as well as the ability to fit plenty of hardners. I don't care how much you complain that it's short range, thats just plain unbalanced. Also, don't give me the "you can shoot the drones or smartbomb them" bull. It takes 5 reps of a thermal medium smartbomb to kill an Ogre. Thats about 40 seconds with high-level smartbomb skills. In that time, they will deal 6800 points of damage. And shooting them down one by one? A bit more effective but it doesn't change the fact that the entire time you're trying to kill those drones, them AND the Thorax are ripping into you. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Jim Raynor |
Posted - 2005.08.23 09:42:00 -
[77] People that can't see the Thorax is clearly imbalanced **** compared to the rest of T1 cruisers are simply blind. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 09:46:00 -
[78]
So, basically, the thorax is not overpowered bevause a battleship can slaughter it at 45 km when it does something dumb ? You are talking about a totally hypothetical situation that you don't even bother describing, what do you expect to prove with that ? And, furthermore, nobody is talking about 10 heavy drones (maxed drones skills) but 8 heavy drones (drones to level 5, drone interfacing to level 3).
Caldari is the "missile race", so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with cruise and siege launchers ? Amarr is the "turret race", so why shouldn't it have a cruiser with megapulses or megabeams ? Besides, 4 heavy drones would more likely be 10 medium drones: a cruiser weapon for a blaster boat of a drone race, this is perfectly fine. 15 medium drones for the arbitrator and the vexor, the drone carriers of two different races. It doesn't matter than the arbitrator is not a gallente ship, it is already sub-par compared to the vexor. Cruiser weapons for dedicated drone carriers: This is fine to me. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.23 10:04:00 -
[79] ^^ Well said. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Jane Vladmir |
Posted - 2005.08.23 10:09:00 -
[80]
|
Kye Kenshin |
Posted - 2005.08.23 10:15:00 -
[81] The arbitrator is not sub-par. Ive seen what that ship can do in skilled hands. Even if you nerf the dronebay your still gonna have people using the small blasters and 1600m plate setup just because small blasters are alot better then med blasters and you can fit a whole rack. Ive killed other cruisers with this setup with out using any heavies before so people are still gonna complain even if you took the whole drone bay away. In reality the rax is gimped as it has to rely on a setup which it was never intended for just to be useable. In fact cruisers in general need to be completely over hauled and thought long and hard about where there role really is. so the rax is overpowered because it exists in a generally underpowered class |
Seramis |
Posted - 2005.08.23 11:06:00 -
[82]
So all that much wind only about 2 Heavy Drones (8 in Thorax, 6 in Arbitrator). Lol, ahh, big lol. Blaster are nice, very nice, if your opponent let you warp in at very close range. Oh, a very hypothetical situation too. And, btw. also a cruiser fittet for long range fight can kill at least 2 - 4 of the Thorax' drones if he start drone attack at 45km. In short range fight thorax is a very good ship, sure. But every ship has a specific role, Caracal in short range and you become perforated faster than u can send 2 volleys of your heavy missiles, it's a long range ship. Thorax, attacked by a sniping cruiser, has no chance to do any damage. It has to come close, very close, and that in most situations need time, time for the opponent to kill the thorax. If there is something that should be changed it should be the 1600mm plates, because those are BS sized modules like 100MN MWD/AB and it should not be possible to fit them into something smaller than BS. |
Gabriel Karade |
Posted - 2005.08.23 11:08:00 -
[83] I love my thorax; I can't fly any other race's cruiser. But to be frank, the 200 m^3 drone bay is overkill, the thorax already is a superb blaster-ship. You can fit a full rack of medium blasters (Electron II's) in a balanced offensive/defensive setup while doing ~320 Dps before drones. Throwing in another ~170 DPS for 8 Ogres just makes it obscene. At maximum skills a total turret/drone damage of 503/sec is possible, that's not a 'gank' setup either. Ten Hammerheads is ~90 Dps, that's plenty on top of the damage from medium blasters. Swapping the Brutix and Thorax drone bays around could be a good idea, just got to be careful not to unbalance it next to the other Battlecruisers, a Pg/CPU boost in addition would probably be a step too far (you can already fit 7x Electron II's, Armour repairer/MWD with Adv.Weapon Upgs IV). The people who say cruiser suck are forgetting just how much æbang for your buckÆ you get out of them. Battlecruisers cost ~4x as much, are they 4x more effective?...I seriously doubt it. Tier 2 Battleships cost approximatly 15 times as much (example, Thorax:Megathron), is a blaster-equipped Megathron 15 times better than a blaster-equipped Thorax?...not a chance. Diminishing returns 4tw  (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Muad 'dib |
Posted - 2005.08.23 12:19:00 -
[84] Edited by: Muad ''dib on 23/08/2005 12:20:08 Agreed, nerf thorax drone bay by half please none of the "leave the t'rax alone, boost the rest" is bollox. The rax with named bits + drones does more DPS than an average fit BS which is why so many pirates use it - cheap and deadly, it would throw off all cruiser ballancing boosting the other races cruisers. Its no coinsidence that all the other cruisers of all teirs are ballanced and then theres the thorax. . . . its IS overpowered and has been for a very long time. Oh and boost the vigilants drones bay to 100, its silly only fitting 5 lights for a gallante/mimattar hybrid faction ship, the rupture can fit 6 mediums for gods sake. |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 12:28:00 -
[85] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 12:34:01
Just for you, even though i said i was going to shut up. Why do you have this obsession about conceiving game balance only in 1 VS 1, two ships of the same class against each other, where nobody can warp out. The thorax is overpowered in his class and outside his class. As for the rest of what you write, please read again the whole thread and think about it, no need to answer yet again the same issues because you can't be bothered to read before posting. The arbitrator is not sub-par. It is, however, not worth using over a vexor as it is lacking in about every possible way compared to the vexor. See what the 'freak said here: clicky. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
SolarKnight |
Posted - 2005.08.23 12:32:00 -
[86] Edited by: SolarKnight on 23/08/2005 12:35:15 Why not just limit the Thorax to using medium drones? that way you still get to use swarms of drones, like it says in its description, you still get reasonably good damage from the drones, and it reduces the damage it can do, without changing the ship too much. (This would also make its drone carrying ability similar to the dominix, in that it would be able to carry a second wave of drones) Any thoughts on this? |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 12:36:00 -
[87] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 12:36:42 Nevermind. |
656587 |
Posted - 2005.08.23 12:49:00 -
[88] I agree, I lost a tempest to a thorax. What is the point of getting a battleship when a smaller ship can beat you. Atleast in other games a larger sword and shield will always beat the smaller sword and shield. I dont think this makes sense, they need to fix EvE. |
Apoll |
Posted - 2005.08.23 13:13:00 -
[89]
Vigilant signed. (A bit more PG is good since it doesn't have the drone bay). Nerf Thorax drone bay but give 100+ PG (CPU is fine). Everyone whining about Thorax all those months. a) You cannot tank (800/1600mm plating) without drop to small weapons where you don't get bonus. Basicaly you are doing 25% more damage than Incursus. (Incursus has better tracking). b) You cannot fit Railguns without 3-4 RCU T2 and Armor rep (nothing else!!!!!) At Advance Wep upgrade 4. And the answer everyone use on the above (non gallente pilots) is "YOU HAVE A HUGE DRONE BAY USE IT". A Maller as follows (it doesn't get any bonus on lasers so...) 5 X 220mm AC MWD - X5 - Cap recharger T2 800mm Plating - Med Armor rep t2 - 4 Guro T2 (it can fit everything with Adv Wep upgrades 4 + Implant or Adv Wep 5) Could you tell me how deadly it is compared to Thorax including the drones or any other T1 cruiser & BattleCruiser??? It can chop down any armor and even beat few BS out there. Ah! And regarding the "BS killer Thorax" please check the kill mails. 99% of the Thorax vs BS nearly all BS were either poorly fitted from noobs or long range fittings. |
NateX |
Posted - 2005.08.23 13:45:00 -
[90]
Yeah! the osprey and Bellicose way to Ubber killars! NateX |
 NateX Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.23 13:45:00 -
[91]
Yeah! the osprey and Bellicose way to Ubber killars! |
Stuart85 |
Posted - 2005.08.23 14:04:00 -
[92]
Large sword and shield should always beat a small sword and shield? No, those games are broken, they are the ones that need fixing. The day 'bigger ship' = 'win button', (or anything equals 'win button' for that matter) is the day the game is finished. |
 Stuart85 |
Posted - 2005.08.23 14:04:00 -
[93]
Large sword and shield should always beat a small sword and shield? No, those games are broken, they are the ones that need fixing. The day 'bigger ship' = 'win button', (or anything equals 'win button' for that matter) is the day the game is finished. |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 14:27:00 -
[94]
thats a bad argument tbh |
 W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 14:27:00 -
[95]
thats a bad argument tbh |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:01:00 -
[96] I don' want the thorax to get nerfed,i want it to get balanced,along with the rest of the tech1 cruisers. Imo,HAC's are much more balanced to eachother (caldari are a bit off,but the rest are ok).Maybe we could "reverse engineer" the tech1 cruisers from HAC's and be done with it. As it is,all cruisers can't effectively tank without oversized 1600mm plates.That means lowering your damage output by using frigate-sized weapons,due to fitting constraints.I remember training engineering and electronics to lvl5 when i was 2 months in the game so i could finally fit a rupture decently.The only cruiser that can offset the reduced damaged output of frig guns is the thorax due to it's huge drone bay. I agree with the rest of the people who propose downgrading the thorax dronebay and upgrading the grid/cpu on most of the cruisers,since they all have a hard time fitting.Since thorax is a gallente ship it's ok for it to have some more drones,but not 8 heavies.By comparison,if minnie cruisers get 5 mediums,i suppose it's ok for the thorax to field 3-4 MEDIUMS more,as long as the bay doesn't stretch to BS size. It's obvious that a thorax can actually go head to head with HAC's,just because of drones. I tested a vagabond with a corpmates thorax.Before anyone says "learn how to fight it",i know how to do it.However,the fact that i need a specific setup on a tech2 ship ranging from 40-80mil ISK to counter a tech1 ship with a cost of roughly 7-10mil is downright ridiculous. I used a normal group pvp setup on the vagabond,with no active tank.This is not a solo setup,or a max damage one,it's a group fitting and we simulated a random solo encounter with a tech1 cruiser.I had 5x220mm II's,rocket launcher for defenders,10MN AB II,sensor booster II,20k scrambler or web,L shield extender II,1xsmall armor rep (to use after the fights),2xgyro II,2xPDU II.The idea behind this setup is to do some decent damage,without the risk of flying such an expensive ship without any form of defense at all.The L extender II with the 2xPDU II gives 3.9k shields with decent resistances,which should be able to hold long enough for you to decimate a tech1 cruiser.All this sounds more or less reasonable,right? Well,the cap drain of the 220's on the vagabond is about 10% because of the high rof(1st time ever i saw my cap drain from firing guns on a projectile boat).The autocannons have a nice falloff,but you will optimally want to be near 8km of the target to maximize damage and have a decent chance of passing the 10km threshold of his webbing range if any of his buddies show up.However,If you close the range on the rax to slightly less than 10km,he opens up with web,multiple nos and drones,and the 1600mm plate gives him ample time to tank you until you have no cap(while his is full and he can run his armor rep for a long time),you can't AB/MWD away,can't fire guns etc,can't web him to outrun him.He isn't firing any guns,or if he is they are frig sized guns,so you shouldn't have a prob,right?Wrong,because the 8 heavies of doom will eventually go through your shield and you will die. When i'm in a vagabond,a thorax scares me more than a dominix.I can easily outrun the domi if i get in trouble,even if his heavy nos will drain my cap faster.It's a BS and i can orbit further away and still get decent hits due to it's larger sig,so i won't get webbed.Hell,a vag can even kill a deimos if flown the right way,but has trouble with a thorax?It may be a specific setup for a thorax,but it's one of the most common one out there and is not considered unusual.That's not balance.It's a slap in the face for those who take the time to train and the risk to fly in combat a domi or a deimos instead of a thorax. |
 BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:01:00 -
[97] I don' want the thorax to get nerfed,i want it to get balanced,along with the rest of the tech1 cruisers. Imo,HAC's are much more balanced to eachother (caldari are a bit off,but the rest are ok).Maybe we could "reverse engineer" the tech1 cruisers from HAC's and be done with it. As it is,all cruisers can't effectively tank without oversized 1600mm plates.That means lowering your damage output by using frigate-sized weapons,due to fitting constraints.I remember training engineering and electronics to lvl5 when i was 2 months in the game so i could finally fit a rupture decently.The only cruiser that can offset the reduced damaged output of frig guns is the thorax due to it's huge drone bay. I agree with the rest of the people who propose downgrading the thorax dronebay and upgrading the grid/cpu on most of the cruisers,since they all have a hard time fitting.Since thorax is a gallente ship it's ok for it to have some more drones,but not 8 heavies.By comparison,if minnie cruisers get 5 mediums,i suppose it's ok for the thorax to field 3-4 MEDIUMS more,as long as the bay doesn't stretch to BS size. It's obvious that a thorax can actually go head to head with HAC's,just because of drones. I tested a vagabond with a corpmates thorax.Before anyone says "learn how to fight it",i know how to do it.However,the fact that i need a specific setup on a tech2 ship ranging from 40-80mil ISK to counter a tech1 ship with a cost of roughly 7-10mil is downright ridiculous. I used a normal group pvp setup on the vagabond,with no active tank.This is not a solo setup,or a max damage one,it's a group fitting and we simulated a random solo encounter with a tech1 cruiser.I had 5x220mm II's,rocket launcher for defenders,10MN AB II,sensor booster II,20k scrambler or web,L shield extender II,1xsmall armor rep (to use after the fights),2xgyro II,2xPDU II.The idea behind this setup is to do some decent damage,without the risk of flying such an expensive ship without any form of defense at all.The L extender II with the 2xPDU II gives 3.9k shields with decent resistances,which should be able to hold long enough for you to decimate a tech1 cruiser.All this sounds more or less reasonable,right? Well,the cap drain of the 220's on the vagabond is about 10% because of the high rof(1st time ever i saw my cap drain from firing guns on a projectile boat).The autocannons have a nice falloff,but you will optimally want to be near 8km of the target to maximize damage and have a decent chance of passing the 10km threshold of his webbing range if any of his buddies show up.However,If you close the range on the rax to slightly less than 10km,he opens up with web,multiple nos and drones,and the 1600mm plate gives him ample time to tank you until you have no cap(while his is full and he can run his armor rep for a long time),you can't AB/MWD away,can't fire guns etc,can't web him to outrun him.He isn't firing any guns,or if he is they are frig sized guns,so you shouldn't have a prob,right?Wrong,because the 8 heavies of doom will eventually go through your shield and you will die. When i'm in a vagabond,a thorax scares me more than a dominix.I can easily outrun the domi if i get in trouble,even if his heavy nos will drain my cap faster.It's a BS and i can orbit further away and still get decent hits due to it's larger sig,so i won't get webbed.Hell,a vag can even kill a deimos if flown the right way,but has trouble with a thorax?It may be a specific setup for a thorax,but it's one of the most common one out there and is not considered unusual.That's not balance.It's a slap in the face for those who take the time to train and the risk to fly in combat a domi or a deimos instead of a thorax. |
HUGO DRAX |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:08:00 -
[98] For all the thorax whiners, maybe EvE should only have 5 ship class. Small,medium,large,uber,superuber And only one type of weapon,shield,ammo. A Raven could wipe out a tanked thorax in no time, A maller can kill a thorax fine and it is a cruiser class ship. A thorax is a combat support ship, it is a T2 Frig killer providing support for BS in combat, It is not a uberkill everything ship. A skilled pilot can kill a thorax. The problem is unskilled pilots are probably getting wiped by skilled thorax pilots and are deciding to nerf it down. A thorax has to MWD down to its target real close, by then it is sucking cap and has the radius of a planet, Heavy drones are not that fast either so you have to get within 800-2000meters. It is taking damage on its way. A smart pilot would target the drones first then the ship. For those asking for a nerf, were you killed by a rax? what ship were you flying, fittings and your skill sheet please. |
 HUGO DRAX DRAX INDUSTRIES |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:08:00 -
[99] For all the thorax whiners, maybe EvE should only have 5 ship class. Small,medium,large,uber,superuber And only one type of weapon,shield,ammo. A Raven could wipe out a tanked thorax in no time, A maller can kill a thorax fine and it is a cruiser class ship. A thorax is a combat support ship, it is a T2 Frig killer providing support for BS in combat, It is not a uberkill everything ship. A skilled pilot can kill a thorax. The problem is unskilled pilots are probably getting wiped by skilled thorax pilots and are deciding to nerf it down. A thorax has to MWD down to its target real close, by then it is sucking cap and has the radius of a planet, Heavy drones are not that fast either so you have to get within 800-2000meters. It is taking damage on its way. A smart pilot would target the drones first then the ship. For those asking for a nerf, were you killed by a rax? what ship were you flying, fittings and your skill sheet please. Dont just complain, do something. Channel macrointel meet with likeminded folks, spottings,intel |
Layrex |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:11:00 -
[100] Edited by: Layrex on 23/08/2005 15:11:34 If I come up agianst a Thorax I just Nos him while blowing up his drones. Renders him pathetic. Problem is that's a specific setup. ------------------------------ |
 Layrex Caldari |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:11:00 -
[101] Edited by: Layrex on 23/08/2005 15:11:34 If I come up agianst a Thorax I just Nos him while blowing up his drones. Renders him pathetic. Problem is that's a specific setup. |
HippoKing |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:38:00 -
[102]
whats the point? - they only just did that one |
 HippoKing Caldari The I-Win Button |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:38:00 -
[103]
whats the point? - they only just did that one |
HUGO DRAX |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:47:00 -
[104]
Thats what I like about EvE if PvP was paper,rock,sizzors I would go elsewhere. EvE requires some intelligence,planning before engaging into battle. Its more of a chess game. |
HUGO DRAX DRAX INDUSTRIES |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:47:00 -
[105]
Thats what I like about EvE if PvP was paper,rock,sizzors I would go elsewhere. EvE requires some intelligence,planning before engaging into battle. Its more of a chess game. Dont just complain, do something. Channel macrointel meet with likeminded folks, spottings,intel |
HippoKing |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:57:00 -
[106]
what with? a raven has less drones than a rax, its missiles do (almost) nothing (unless it fits heavies, thus borking its anti-BS setup), nosferatus don't have much affect on a rax - so what is a raven supposed to do - unless that raven is in an antirax setup (with smarties, and probably heavy missiles), the rax wins. now, imagine that raven is fighting a maller - nossy the thing till its caps are dead, then use heavy drones to kill the thing - u can fire cruise missiles as well - they will add A BIT of DPS - not enough to "wipe a tanked thorax in no time) without fitting a specific anti-rax setup, a raven won't win however, with a fairly general setup, (with nossies) it can kill EVERY other t1 cruiser - sound fair to you? |
HippoKing Caldari The I-Win Button |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:57:00 -
[107]
what with? a raven has less drones than a rax, its missiles do (almost) nothing (unless it fits heavies, thus borking its anti-BS setup), nosferatus don't have much affect on a rax - so what is a raven supposed to do - unless that raven is in an antirax setup (with smarties, and probably heavy missiles), the rax wins. now, imagine that raven is fighting a maller - nossy the thing till its caps are dead, then use heavy drones to kill the thing - u can fire cruise missiles as well - they will add A BIT of DPS - not enough to "wipe a tanked thorax in no time) without fitting a specific anti-rax setup, a raven won't win however, with a fairly general setup, (with nossies) it can kill EVERY other t1 cruiser - sound fair to you? |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:58:00 -
[108] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 16:01:51
That is exactly what is wrong with the thorax, my standard thorax setup is versatile enough not to have to put intelligence or planning. I cannot do that with another cruiser. BS armor + BS weapon + frig defense in a disposable cruiser 4tw, no other cruiser can do that. It is the firepower and the versatility on the battlefield (non-specific setup) that makes this ship so overpowered. It is better than half of the HAC in firepower, versatility on the battlefield, survivability. That is wrong. Prove me wrong instead of throwing your textbook anti-nerf stuffs. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Oh, yeah, as for the psycho-crap "you got beat by a thorax because you suck" i have another one for you, "you don't want your ship to be put on par with the other ships of the same class because you don't want people to see how crap you are when fighting with balanced ships." |
 Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 15:58:00 -
[109] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 16:01:51
That is exactly what is wrong with the thorax, my standard thorax setup is versatile enough not to have to put intelligence or planning. I cannot do that with another cruiser. BS armor + BS weapon + frig defense in a disposable cruiser 4tw, no other cruiser can do that. It is the firepower and the versatility on the battlefield (non-specific setup) that makes this ship so overpowered. It is better than half of the HAC in firepower, versatility on the battlefield, survivability. That is wrong. Prove me wrong instead of throwing your textbook anti-nerf stuffs. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Oh, yeah, as for the psycho-crap "you got beat by a thorax because you suck" i have another one for you, "you don't want your ship to be put on par with the other ships of the same class because you don't want people to see how crap you are when fighting with balanced ships." In Rust We Trust |
Steppa |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:06:00 -
[110] Edited by: Steppa on 23/08/2005 16:06:26
My GOD...do they even TEACH punctuation anymore? |
 Steppa Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:06:00 -
[111] Edited by: Steppa on 23/08/2005 16:06:26
My GOD...do they even TEACH punctuation anymore? |
singultus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:34:00 -
[112] It seems to me they should increase the power of other cruisers, rather than nerfing everything (the 'rax in this case...), as discussed before. You can't blame CCP for not nerfing it anyway, it brings diversity to the game (in that we are discussing it at this very point in time!). Surely it's more fun to design a setup to counter the 'rax, or ask for an improvement in other cruisers? Just giving up and whining about it seems such a rubbish way to deal with "imbalances" in the game. I'd like to see Cruisers brought up to the same level, making them much more viable ships, rather than floating blobs with the size (easier to lock, hit, etc.), but none of the firepower. |
 singultus Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:34:00 -
[113] It seems to me they should increase the power of other cruisers, rather than nerfing everything (the 'rax in this case...), as discussed before. You can't blame CCP for not nerfing it anyway, it brings diversity to the game (in that we are discussing it at this very point in time!). Surely it's more fun to design a setup to counter the 'rax, or ask for an improvement in other cruisers? Just giving up and whining about it seems such a rubbish way to deal with "imbalances" in the game. I'd like to see Cruisers brought up to the same level, making them much more viable ships, rather than floating blobs with the size (easier to lock, hit, etc.), but none of the firepower. |
HUGO DRAX |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:36:00 -
[114] Lets see, Heavy NOS = dead rax Cruise Missles = dead rax ECM = dead rax stay 20KM away from one. etc.. Think. |
HUGO DRAX DRAX INDUSTRIES |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:36:00 -
[115] Lets see, Heavy NOS = dead rax Cruise Missles = dead rax ECM = dead rax stay 20KM away from one. etc.. Think. Dont just complain, do something. Channel macrointel meet with likeminded folks, spottings,intel |
Kye Kenshin |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:53:00 -
[116]
Now come on i think we have to seperate fact from the myth here. Are you seriously saying there's fleets of raven killing rax's running about! If it does happen there bloody good pilots |
 Kye Kenshin Sanctum's Edge |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:53:00 -
[117]
Now come on i think we have to seperate fact from the myth here. Are you seriously saying there's fleets of raven killing rax's running about! If it does happen there bloody good pilots |
Zenst |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:56:00 -
[118]
unsigned *cry*. |
 Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 16:56:00 -
[119]
unsigned *cry*. |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.23 17:08:00 -
[120]
And this is the deal right here. The Vexor is a tier II cruiser, and it isn't the proper comparison. Seriously though, swap the drone bays on the Brutix and Thorax if anything. |
 Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 17:08:00 -
[121]
And this is the deal right here. The Vexor is a tier II cruiser, and it isn't the proper comparison. Seriously though, swap the drone bays on the Brutix and Thorax if anything. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
RUNYOUFOOLS |
Posted - 2005.08.23 17:54:00 -
[122] hay guyz i got this m4d ide3! lets make a ship that can go really realy fast, but that uses loads of cap so best give it a bonus to stop that cos useing loads of cap is bad. then id like it to be able to use 5 guns cuz liek 5 is a fab number LOL!. best of all i can use those 5 turret slots to do meh m4d mining with too! fantastic!!1! also id love it if it had a really huge drone bay. and by that i mean better than almost every ship in teh game!1!. im no wiz as maths but i think it would be grat if it could use 10 med or 8 hvy drones at a time! im sure this would not do too much damage compard to all the other t1 cruisers. and on teh plus side it means i can mine even better too. OMG!! and last of all id love it to cost like 8mill and be t1 so i get almost the cost of teh ship back in case i die. but its such a fantatic ship it wont! i had a chat wiv meh corpmates and tehy said it would be a really bad idea but tbh tehy are right muppets, cos they said the dps (whatever that is LOL!) wold be too good, and drones can attack even if i get jammed and dont need any out of game player skill to use cos its just a "AI controlled attack" WTF?!?1? it takes mad skills to depoly drones and right click attack!. And as for all those muppets in frigs that attack me my drones will pwn them!!. But i said to my corpm8's duuuuh use a smartbomb you nubs!. but tehy said wat about empire wars?. and the fact that by the time your meduim smartbomb has gone off once your prolly goona be dead. but i fink thats just a lie cos they r jelous ov my UBAR idea for a ship! ROFL!! and so im posting this here hop u luv my idea as much as i do cos i fink its grat! ps. Nerf the poxy rax. anyone that cant see its totaly ott really really need a kick in the nads. Im all for ships that are good at there job, but the rax really is a obsence combat beast and uptill the point they gave the minne/caldari cruisers a mining bonus it was by far and away the best "isk for your buck" ship a new player could get. stop the madness, nerf the rax +some extra grid -100m3 drone bay /me ♥ veld (notify) Your ship is no longer in the same location, so whatever it was you were trying to fails. |
 RUNYOUFOOLS Eve University Ivy League |
Posted - 2005.08.23 17:54:00 -
[123] hay guyz i got this m4d ide3! lets make a ship that can go really realy fast, but that uses loads of cap so best give it a bonus to stop that cos useing loads of cap is bad. then id like it to be able to use 5 guns cuz liek 5 is a fab number LOL!. best of all i can use those 5 turret slots to do meh m4d mining with too! fantastic!!1! also id love it if it had a really huge drone bay. and by that i mean better than almost every ship in teh game!1!. im no wiz as maths but i think it would be grat if it could use 10 med or 8 hvy drones at a time! im sure this would not do too much damage compard to all the other t1 cruisers. and on teh plus side it means i can mine even better too. OMG!! and last of all id love it to cost like 8mill and be t1 so i get almost the cost of teh ship back in case i die. but its such a fantatic ship it wont! i had a chat wiv meh corpmates and tehy said it would be a really bad idea but tbh tehy are right muppets, cos they said the dps (whatever that is LOL!) wold be too good, and drones can attack even if i get jammed and dont need any out of game player skill to use cos its just a "AI controlled attack" WTF?!?1? it takes mad skills to depoly drones and right click attack!. And as for all those muppets in frigs that attack me my drones will pwn them!!. But i said to my corpm8's duuuuh use a smartbomb you nubs!. but tehy said wat about empire wars?. and the fact that by the time your meduim smartbomb has gone off once your prolly goona be dead. but i fink thats just a lie cos they r jelous ov my UBAR idea for a ship! ROFL!! and so im posting this here hop u luv my idea as much as i do cos i fink its grat! ps. Nerf the poxy rax. anyone that cant see its totaly ott really really need a kick in the nads. Im all for ships that are good at there job, but the rax really is a obsence combat beast and uptill the point they gave the minne/caldari cruisers a mining bonus it was by far and away the best "isk for your buck" ship a new player could get. stop the madness, nerf the rax +some extra grid -100m3 drone bay Well do you love eggs? |
Siri Danae |
Posted - 2005.08.23 18:45:00 -
[124]
...and it was at this moment, through guilt by association, that the nerf-the-rax lobby lost all credibility and the debate. Adjust your tactics, not the game ------ I generally assume the following: 1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers. 2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears. 3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners. |
 Siri Danae Gallente Xone Trading Corp. |
Posted - 2005.08.23 18:45:00 -
[125]
...and it was at this moment, through guilt by association, that the nerf-the-rax lobby lost all credibility and the debate. Adjust your tactics, not the game ------ I generally assume the following: 1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers. 2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears. 3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners. |
Keltin |
Posted - 2005.08.23 18:48:00 -
[126] Nerf the Thorax, because it performs like a cruiser should perform, without using cruiser sized weapons. Right that's a great argument there. I'll have to remember it sometime down the road. I also enjoy the argument: This ship costs (insert amount of money) and it should be better than the Thorax. Well folks I've got a little news flash for you. Those prices you are paying for ships, aren't nearly as low as they could be, stop thinking isk=power of ship. Boost other ships, don't nerf the Thorax, it's really that simple. Add PG and CPU or cap recharge rate to the other ships, allow them to fit bigger guns to help them deal with the Thorax as it comes charging in. Make a new tier of 3200 plates for Battleships, so the Thorax has BS hp whines can die out. There are a lot of things that can be changed, it doesn't have to be the Thorax. Ozzy Osbourne said it best: No More Tears |
 Keltin Minmatar Black Lotus Clan |
Posted - 2005.08.23 18:48:00 -
[127] Nerf the Thorax, because it performs like a cruiser should perform, without using cruiser sized weapons. Right that's a great argument there. I'll have to remember it sometime down the road. I also enjoy the argument: This ship costs (insert amount of money) and it should be better than the Thorax. Well folks I've got a little news flash for you. Those prices you are paying for ships, aren't nearly as low as they could be, stop thinking isk=power of ship. Boost other ships, don't nerf the Thorax, it's really that simple. Add PG and CPU or cap recharge rate to the other ships, allow them to fit bigger guns to help them deal with the Thorax as it comes charging in. Make a new tier of 3200 plates for Battleships, so the Thorax has BS hp whines can die out. There are a lot of things that can be changed, it doesn't have to be the Thorax. Ozzy Osbourne said it best: No More Tears |
Stormfront |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:00:00 -
[128] Let the Rax fit 5 heavy ions, mwd rep II and mwd. Without grid mods. nerf the drones |
Voltron |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:00:00 -
[129] I fly all 4 races cruisers in pvp, and to be perfectly honest the thorax is completely overpowered with its dronebay size. No argument will convince me otherwise because i've flown all 4 races top tier cruisers, and yes its true you can fit a 1600mm plate and small t2 weapons to all 4 of them, but only ONE of them can also field 8 heavy drones.........which to be honest is like having a second cruisers worth of firepower at your disposal. Yes drones are one of the gallentes weapons of choice, but so are blasters......so why not nerf the dronebay to 100m3 and still allow it to fit a rack of ions/mwd/slight tank, hell it'll still be able to field 10 mediums if thats done, leaving it one hell of alot of firepower still. Volt |
 Voltron Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:00:00 -
[130] I fly all 4 races cruisers in pvp, and to be perfectly honest the thorax is completely overpowered with its dronebay size. No argument will convince me otherwise because i've flown all 4 races top tier cruisers, and yes its true you can fit a 1600mm plate and small t2 weapons to all 4 of them, but only ONE of them can also field 8 heavy drones.........which to be honest is like having a second cruisers worth of firepower at your disposal. Yes drones are one of the gallentes weapons of choice, but so are blasters......so why not nerf the dronebay to 100m3 and still allow it to fit a rack of ions/mwd/slight tank, hell it'll still be able to field 10 mediums if thats done, leaving it one hell of alot of firepower still. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it? |
 Stormfront Black Hammer |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:00:00 -
[131] Let the Rax fit 5 heavy ions, mwd rep II and mwd. Without grid mods. nerf the drones |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:06:00 -
[132] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 19:07:43
Thanks for proving my point. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Holy ****, i did not know that it would be so easy. You, sir, are a genius. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:06:00 -
[133] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 19:07:43
Thanks for proving my point. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Holy ****, i did not know that it would be so easy. You, sir, are a genius. In Rust We Trust |
Dimitri Forgroth |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:09:00 -
[134]
It me, or is that basically a deimos fitting? :\ Don't be a bad loser | DPS Spreadsheet |
 Dimitri Forgroth The Bolt |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:09:00 -
[135]
It me, or is that basically a deimos fitting? :\ DPS Sheet |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:31:00 -
[136]It is not performing like a cruiser do, because it can slaughter (provided that you fit it correctly) almost anything with the SAME fitting. Who cares if there are SPECIFIC setups to counter you, as at the end of the day those setups die to more versatile fittings and thus aren't likely to be encountered. And no, the thorax is not working as cruisers should perform, or please tell me why. Because, and i'm honest, i have no idea how cruiser *should* perform as CCP ways are somewhat dark for me, sometimes. I just know that when one ship, one setup beats most of the setups out there (=versatile), and cannot be countered by other VERSATILE** setups because people whined sufficiently for the drone bay to be DOUBLED after it was rightfully nerfed, there is a problem. By the time a ship smaller than a battleship or a hac deals with the drones, it is doomed or close to be so, and the thorax is still healty. That is wrong on so many levels it is painfull to have to explain it to someone who is writing seriously.
Dude, that is not the argument and you know it. Do you hope that this confusion is helping the debate, or do you just believe that it will end it ?
Problem: The combinaison BS armor + BS weapons + frig defense in a disposable cruiser is wrong. Every tier 3 cruiser can fit frigate guns. Every tier 3 cruiser can fit a big plate (or two in the case of the maller). Only the Thorax can use BS weapons. Solution: remove the ability of the thorax to use BS weapons. Problem solved  Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ** eve 101 is coming up with setups to beat specific setups, but if you new setup is too much specialized it is not working, as it will die to versatile setups to easily. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:31:00 -
[137]It is not performing like a cruiser do, because it can slaughter (provided that you fit it correctly) almost anything with the SAME fitting. Who cares if there are SPECIFIC setups to counter you, as at the end of the day those setups die to more versatile fittings and thus aren't likely to be encountered. And no, the thorax is not working as cruisers should perform, or please tell me why. Because, and i'm honest, i have no idea how cruiser *should* perform as CCP ways are somewhat dark for me, sometimes. I just know that when one ship, one setup beats most of the setups out there (=versatile), and cannot be countered by other VERSATILE** setups because people whined sufficiently for the drone bay to be DOUBLED after it was rightfully nerfed, there is a problem. By the time a ship smaller than a battleship or a hac deals with the drones, it is doomed or close to be so, and the thorax is still healty. That is wrong on so many levels it is painfull to have to explain it to someone who is writing seriously.
Dude, that is not the argument and you know it. Do you hope that this confusion is helping the debate, or do you just believe that it will end it ?
Problem: The combinaison BS armor + BS weapons + frig defense in a disposable cruiser is wrong. Every tier 3 cruiser can fit frigate guns. Every tier 3 cruiser can fit a big plate (or two in the case of the maller). Only the Thorax can use BS weapons. Solution: remove the ability of the thorax to use BS weapons. Problem solved Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ** eve 101 is coming up with setups to beat specific setups, but if you new setup is too much specialized it is not working, as it will die to versatile setups to easily. In Rust We Trust |
Deja Thoris |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:38:00 -
[138]
wtf? Nos a rax and it still has heavy drones shooting you and a godlike amount of armour to chew through. Cruise missiles kill a rax? No ****. They are bs weapons. You should think Einstein. |
 Deja Thoris Revelations Inc. Shroud Of Darkness |
Posted - 2005.08.23 19:38:00 -
[139]
wtf? Nos a rax and it still has heavy drones shooting you and a godlike amount of armour to chew through. Cruise missiles kill a rax? No ****. They are bs weapons. You should think Einstein. |
Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:04:00 -
[140] I really am having trouble pinning down where the argument is, for the thorax being overpowered. The only solid thing I reading is "the drone bay is too big, the dronebay is too big!" As if that actually stands as an argument. As has already been pointed out ad nausium, some others cruisers can use 6 heavy drones, the thorax has fewer slots and fitting problems compared to other t3 cruisers, and every other gallente ship *above* cruiser class has more drone bay space then the thorax. Someone kindly pointed out that tactics vs the thorax isn't a problem (in other words, it's not especially "hard" to kill a thorax when you know what your doing). So do me a favor- IN LIST FORM, lay out the argument as to exactly why the thorax is overpowered, point by point, in short and consice form (one sentence each, ect) And whoever said the drones of a thorax does BS dmg is simply full of crap. I have crap gunnery skills (seriously, nothing relevant byond lev 3), and my BS does *way* more damage than the most damaging heavy drones, with max skills, if we are talkling about 8 of them. And that is whithout dmg mods, and far more range (not to mention instant dmg, unlike the drones). When you add in my BS dronebay, the argument becomes even more laughable. Get out of here with that nonsense. Lying wont win you an argument. |
 Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:04:00 -
[141] I really am having trouble pinning down where the argument is, for the thorax being overpowered. The only solid thing I reading is "the drone bay is too big, the dronebay is too big!" As if that actually stands as an argument. As has already been pointed out ad nausium, some others cruisers can use 6 heavy drones, the thorax has fewer slots and fitting problems compared to other t3 cruisers, and every other gallente ship *above* cruiser class has more drone bay space then the thorax. Someone kindly pointed out that tactics vs the thorax isn't a problem (in other words, it's not especially "hard" to kill a thorax when you know what your doing). So do me a favor- IN LIST FORM, lay out the argument as to exactly why the thorax is overpowered, point by point, in short and consice form (one sentence each, ect) And whoever said the drones of a thorax does BS dmg is simply full of crap. I have crap gunnery skills (seriously, nothing relevant byond lev 3), and my BS does *way* more damage than the most damaging heavy drones, with max skills, if we are talkling about 8 of them. And that is whithout dmg mods, and far more range (not to mention instant dmg, unlike the drones). When you add in my BS dronebay, the argument becomes even more laughable. Get out of here with that nonsense. Lying wont win you an argument. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:07:00 -
[142]
* heavy nos and cruise missiles are BS weapons. As you said, even nossed a well setup platerax has still a godly amount of hardened armor; * Drones are a counter to ECM and not the other way around; * "stay 20 km away from one" is a laughable, how do you kill/tackle it then ? Is the thorax ment to be the ultimate doom of any ship that comes within FRICKIN DISRUPTOR RANGE... Man, you got me, seriously. I give up... [ 2005.08.05 23:48:33 ] (notify) Logic has just left This thread as of 2s ago Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:07:00 -
[143]
* heavy nos and cruise missiles are BS weapons. As you said, even nossed a well setup platerax has still a godly amount of hardened armor; * Drones are a counter to ECM and not the other way around; * "stay 20 km away from one" is a laughable, how do you kill/tackle it then ? Is the thorax ment to be the ultimate doom of any ship that comes within FRICKIN DISRUPTOR RANGE... Man, you got me, seriously. I give up... [ 2005.08.05 23:48:33 ] (notify) Logic has just left This thread as of 2s ago Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Keltin |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:22:00 -
[144] Edited by: Keltin on 23/08/2005 20:23:58
Actually no dude, you keep using the term "disposable" in your argument, so you are only contradicting yourself with this statement.
|
Keltin Minmatar Black Lotus Clan |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:22:00 -
[145] Edited by: Keltin on 23/08/2005 20:23:58
Actually no dude, you keep using the term "disposable" in your argument, so you are only contradicting yourself with this statement.
|
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:28:00 -
[146] Edited by: Fidelis Deus on 23/08/2005 20:30:28
Please explain how I am bringing confusion. From my point of view, it seems that the majority of people complaining about the thorax are complaining about the fact that a smart pilot managed to destroy their ship that cost quite a bit more. The Thorax IS one of the few cruisers that are viable in pvp, and like some people crying for a nerf simply because that battleship/HAC of theirs isnt a instant win button vs anything costing less then that.
Looking at some of the posts in this thread, more then one user has complained he cannot kill a thorax in a battleship fitted for destroying other battleships, If you look carefully some people do call for a nerf simply because its not 60 million isk. I do agree that the thorax is overpowered compared to other cruisers, but in the grand scheme of ships its hardly overpowered.
It's not carrying a battleship weapon, heavy drones, while excellent at damage dealing, are easily destroyed by a pack of drones, smartbombs, or guns. Once a plateraxes drones are gone, he is useless.
I don't see how its confusing that I believe cruisers should be able to contribute to a battle while delaing decent damage instead of being destroyed by someones bigger more expensive instawinbutton. I'd agree with you on the fact that compared to other cruisers its overpowered, but looking at the grand shceme it fits in perfectly. |
 Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:28:00 -
[147] Edited by: Fidelis Deus on 23/08/2005 20:30:28
Please explain how I am bringing confusion. From my point of view, it seems that the majority of people complaining about the thorax are complaining about the fact that a smart pilot managed to destroy their ship that cost quite a bit more. The Thorax IS one of the few cruisers that are viable in pvp, and like some people crying for a nerf simply because that battleship/HAC of theirs isnt a instant win button vs anything costing less then that.
Looking at some of the posts in this thread, more then one user has complained he cannot kill a thorax in a battleship fitted for destroying other battleships, If you look carefully some people do call for a nerf simply because its not 60 million isk. I do agree that the thorax is overpowered compared to other cruisers, but in the grand scheme of ships its hardly overpowered.
It's not carrying a battleship weapon, heavy drones, while excellent at damage dealing, are easily destroyed by a pack of drones, smartbombs, or guns. Once a plateraxes drones are gone, he is useless.
I don't see how its confusing that I believe cruisers should be able to contribute to a battle while delaing decent damage instead of being destroyed by someones bigger more expensive instawinbutton. I'd agree with you on the fact that compared to other cruisers its overpowered, but looking at the grand shceme it fits in perfectly. |
Jim Raynor |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:30:00 -
[148] no one is saying the thorax cant have heavy drones we are just saying it should not have eight of them, and a 1600mm plate, and high dps blasters all in one package, ok ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE |
 Jim Raynor Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:30:00 -
[149] no one is saying the thorax cant have heavy drones we are just saying it should not have eight of them, and a 1600mm plate, and high dps blasters all in one package, ok ------ I'll make a sig later. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:40:00 -
[150]Because that is the problem.
The drones carriers can (vexor and arbitrator). The thorax is a blaster ship not a drone ship. It should not have more drones/better drones than the drone carrier of its race. Especially since heavy drones track so good. Because that is making the vexor useless. And because, well, the moa doesn't get more missiles hardpoint than the caracal on top of it's gun, and not "BS sized" (i.e. fittings for it, as the large drone bay is the "fitting" for heavy drones) launcher hardpoints. The caracal has less slots than any other cruiser, my daredevil and my caracal both have 11 slots. The stabber and the omen have one more, yet they are also comparable tier 2 cruiser. The thorax has less slots because it has more drone, but the drones it currently gets are FAR more valuable than the slots it doesn't have. Emphasis on the FAR. Halving the drone bay would NOT make it underpowered, it would still be an awesome cruiser. That is so wrong, brutix is outclassed by the thorax partly because it only has half its drone bay. The deimos, based on the same hull, or even the vigilant, both upgrades of the thorax, have less drone space. It is possible to kill a thorax, i have a maller and a rupture setup that are quite versatile and capable of it. However, those are significantly inferior in about every way to the thorax setup (plate + heavy drones + small guns) when facing other ship types/size/fittings.
That's an easy one. The drones of the thorax do around 200 dps, that is as much as the damage output of a pre-patch torpedo raven without damage mod (not counting 6 heavy drones). A 'geddon with BS skill 3 and large energy turret 2 (surgical strike 2, rapid firing 3, gunnery 5) has, for a megapulse: rof of 5.3 sec & damage mod of 3.5. Using infrared it does 7 * 3.5 * 28 / 5.3 = 130 dps. 166 dps with ultraviolet. To be honest, i think that you are insulting me (as it is clear that you are refering to what i said by the way). Laugh all you want, you are the want looking silly because i proved you wrong with the actual numbers. As for your tip: "Get out of here with that nonsense. Lying wont win you an argument." I have also one for you. Pick a toothpick and stick it under your toenail, then kick the wall, hard. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:40:00 -
[151]Because that is the problem.
The drones carriers can (vexor and arbitrator). The thorax is a blaster ship not a drone ship. It should not have more drones/better drones than the drone carrier of its race. Especially since heavy drones track so good. Because that is making the vexor useless. And because, well, the moa doesn't get more missiles hardpoint than the caracal on top of it's gun, and not "BS sized" (i.e. fittings for it, as the large drone bay is the "fitting" for heavy drones) launcher hardpoints. The caracal has less slots than any other cruiser, my daredevil and my caracal both have 11 slots. The stabber and the omen have one more, yet they are also comparable tier 2 cruiser. The thorax has less slots because it has more drone, but the drones it currently gets are FAR more valuable than the slots it doesn't have. Emphasis on the FAR. Halving the drone bay would NOT make it underpowered, it would still be an awesome cruiser. That is so wrong, brutix is outclassed by the thorax partly because it only has half its drone bay. The deimos, based on the same hull, or even the vigilant, both upgrades of the thorax, have less drone space. It is possible to kill a thorax, i have a maller and a rupture setup that are quite versatile and capable of it. However, those are significantly inferior in about every way to the thorax setup (plate + heavy drones + small guns) when facing other ship types/size/fittings.
That's an easy one. The drones of the thorax do around 200 dps, that is as much as the damage output of a pre-patch torpedo raven without damage mod (not counting 6 heavy drones). A 'geddon with BS skill 3 and large energy turret 2 (surgical strike 2, rapid firing 3, gunnery 5) has, for a megapulse: rof of 5.3 sec & damage mod of 3.5. Using infrared it does 7 * 3.5 * 28 / 5.3 = 130 dps. 166 dps with ultraviolet. To be honest, i think that you are insulting me (as it is clear that you are refering to what i said by the way). Laugh all you want, you are the want looking silly because i proved you wrong with the actual numbers. As for your tip: "Get out of here with that nonsense. Lying wont win you an argument." I have also one for you. Pick a toothpick and stick it under your toenail, then kick the wall, hard. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:42:00 -
[152]
So true. The funny thing is the people saying the rax is fine are ignoring the posts made about boosting it's grid so it can fit a decent blaster setup. They don't care about making the ship better at what it should be doing, they just want there overpowered 200m3 of drone space. They know there ship is overpowered and they like it. ________________________________________________________ |
 Meridius Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:42:00 -
[153]
So true. The funny thing is the people saying the rax is fine are ignoring the posts made about boosting it's grid so it can fit a decent blaster setup. They don't care about making the ship better at what it should be doing, they just want there overpowered 200m3 of drone space. They know there ship is overpowered and they like it. - _____ |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:54:00 -
[154]
The fact that it is disposable is not the problem. It is far too good when fitted correctly, as it requires too specific setups to be destroyed. That is the very definition of overpowered. The fact that is disposable on top of that is icing on the cake, but is not the main argument at all. See any of the posts comparing the damage of heavy drones with BS weapons. Thanks for proving my point, thorax + frig guns + plate + 8 heavy drones is a "cookie cutter setup" and to setup against it, or even incorporating into your general setup design ways to defeat it, you will have to do something that it doesn't have to do: lose versatility. Losing versatility, you lose survivability, hence your setup is worse overall. Hence, more cookie cutter setup and we all end up in the same boring ship and setup, what is exactly what you don't want to happen, don't you ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 20:54:00 -
[155]
The fact that it is disposable is not the problem. It is far too good when fitted correctly, as it requires too specific setups to be destroyed. That is the very definition of overpowered. The fact that is disposable on top of that is icing on the cake, but is not the main argument at all. See any of the posts comparing the damage of heavy drones with BS weapons. Thanks for proving my point, thorax + frig guns + plate + 8 heavy drones is a "cookie cutter setup" and to setup against it, or even incorporating into your general setup design ways to defeat it, you will have to do something that it doesn't have to do: lose versatility. Losing versatility, you lose survivability, hence your setup is worse overall. Hence, more cookie cutter setup and we all end up in the same boring ship and setup, what is exactly what you don't want to happen, don't you ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:03:00 -
[156]
Telling that the one willing to nerf the thorax are willing to nerf it because it a cruiser good in pvp is something terribly wrong. Most of the people i know in game don't like flying battleship, and enjoy frigates and cruisers much more. I do believe that people want cruisers fixed. I also know that i am not flying cruisers in pvp because i would die to a thorax, and in order not to die to it i would have to fit specific setups, hence be far less versatile and easy prey for most other ships and setups. Something that the thorax doesn't have to do, to be able to be as effective against a frigate, a cruiser, or a battleship. All this thanks to the godly drone bay. See how you are in fact, fighting against your own goal ? (continued) |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:03:00 -
[157] (continued) |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:03:00 -
[158]
Telling that the one willing to nerf the thorax are willing to nerf it because it a cruiser good in pvp is something terribly wrong. Most of the people i know in game don't like flying battleship, and enjoy frigates and cruisers much more. I do believe that people want cruisers fixed. I also know that i am not flying cruisers in pvp because i would die to a thorax, and in order not to die to it i would have to fit specific setups, hence be far less versatile and easy prey for most other ships and setups. Something that the thorax doesn't have to do, to be able to be as effective against a frigate, a cruiser, or a battleship. All this thanks to the godly drone bay. See how you are in fact, fighting against your own goal ? (continued) In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:03:00 -
[159] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 21:22:53 Only one person complained because his tempest got owned by a thorax, and i do not agree at all with his argument. In the "nos" thread of necrologic, yesterday, i was exactly arguing that a battleship that doesn't have a specific defense against cruisers and frigates (be it setup or gang) should die to it. I'll dig the link for you later if you want. You say yes, i say no. And i tell why.
Heavy drones are a battleship weapon. Only the thorax can carry them, as other non-battleship ships are almost always better of using smaller drones. There are two exceptions: 1. The ishtar, but this is a very particular case - similar to the assault launcher case, where ccp decides that it is better to use existing stuffs to fill a role in another ship class: ccp could have given a drone damage bonus but gave drone space bonus instead. 2. You want to increase your chance to scoop your drones when they are getting smartbombed. That is not easy to do. You say it's easy, i say it's not. See electrofreak's calculations about that, i can't see how you can argue against that to be honest. Besides, once against, you are telling me to decrease my versatility and survivability, something that you don't have to do.
You said: "Right now - the Thorax gives us that chance, to be able to contribute to a fight or a battle without having a seperate alt dedicated to making isk and training for a couple years." I am completely against the "bigger = better" or "more expensive = better" logic. I have no interest in a game balanced in such a way. I have a problem with you assuming that my motivations when discussing this topic are precisely to achieve such a "logic", and that is what i said in my reply. You are wrong when you assume that the nerf of the thorax is only wanted by people who wants to kill you easily. There are much more and various motivations in our acts than you may think. Why would i want a ship that i like to be nerfed, if i did not understand how this ship is a problem for the cruiser balance in itself ? Again, you say it, but you don't give a reason why. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:08:00 -
[160] You enjoy flying cruisers in PVP, yet would rather simply nerf the thorax to the point where it cannot compete as a viable vessel against bigger ships instead of rebalancing all the cruisers? The thorax fills its intended role. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:08:00 -
[161] Edited by: Fidelis Deus on 23/08/2005 21:10:50 You enjoy flying cruisers in PVP, yet would rather simply nerf the thorax to the point where it cannot compete as a viable vessel against bigger ships instead of rebalancing all the cruisers? The thorax fills its intended role. While I would much rather have a thorax that can compete on the same level as the current one but with a blaster setup - the drone bay works fine. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:41:00 -
[162] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 21:41:48
A. long range frig guns on a cruiser: 75 dps B. medium ions on a thorax: 175-200 dps (or more, depending on skills and fitting obviously) C. drone bay of the thorax: 175-200 dps (8 heavy drones) D. alternative drone bay: > 100 dps (10 medium drones) Currently, you can have A. and C. which is enough to break most battleship tanks. The proposed changes make you decide if you want to break 200 dps or not, aka: do you want the guarantee to be able to break the tank of a battleship or not. It should come at the expense of something, but it does not. You want to kill small stuffs ? Fit for small stuffs. You want to kill big stuffs ? Fit for big stuffs. You want to kill everything with the same setup ? Fine, that is the current thorax. And that is not balanced. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:41:00 -
[163] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 21:41:48
A. long range frig guns on a cruiser: 75 dps B. medium ions on a thorax: 175-200 dps (or more, depending on skills and fitting obviously) C. drone bay of the thorax: 175-200 dps (8 heavy drones) D. alternative drone bay: > 100 dps (10 medium drones) Currently, you can have A. and C. which is enough to break most battleship tanks. The proposed changes make you decide if you want to break 200 dps or not, aka: do you want the guarantee to be able to break the tank of a battleship or not. It should come at the expense of something, but it does not. You want to kill small stuffs ? Fit for small stuffs. You want to kill big stuffs ? Fit for big stuffs. You want to kill everything with the same setup ? Fine, that is the current thorax. And that is not balanced. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:46:00 -
[164] 10 medium drones is approximately 50 dps. Secondly, without a plate, a cruiser is dead very very fast. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:46:00 -
[165] 10 medium drones is approximately 50 dps. Secondly, without a plate, a cruiser is dead very very fast. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:54:00 -
[166]
Not if you include the skills and damage mod of drones into the formula, as you should. Maybe it's not exactly 100, i don't have all the numbers here, but it's not like it would make a difference.
That is the problem of all cruisers and frigates anyway. And if the problem is that a thorax has to few hp, how can you argue that the drone bay make up for it ? You are not going to make all ships more survivable by increasing the overall damage output. That is not logic. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:54:00 -
[167] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 21:57:52
Not if you include the skills and damage mod of drones into the formula, as you should. Maybe it's not exactly 100, i don't have all the numbers here, but it's not like it would make a difference.
That is the problem of all cruisers and frigates anyway. And if the problem is that a thorax has to few hp, how can you argue that the drone bay make up for it ? You are not going to make all ships more survivable by increasing the overall damage output. That is not logic. Edit: Hence, why the "no nerf to thorax, boost other cruisers instead" is totally missing the point. They should have more hp, better fittings and guns worth fitting, but NOT have BS-sized damage for the sake of it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Kalast Raven |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:57:00 -
[168] add 100 grid to thorax + 50 to deimos, and halve the drone bay on rax. add 100 grid to vigilant too. ------- Epic Command - Recruitment and Public Affairs K. Raven |
 Kalast Raven Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2005.08.23 21:57:00 -
[169] add 100 grid to thorax + 50 to deimos, and halve the drone bay on rax. add 100 grid to vigilant too. ------- K. Raven |
Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:01:00 -
[170] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 23/08/2005 22:04:35
Wrong, it is a close range, heavy damage dealer. Including both drones and blasters.
Why? It is in a higher tier, in the drone specialist race...
Oh goody, an actual point that pertains to the argument! And here I was thinking you weren't capable of that. Ok, so drones track well, but take time to find thier target and start the damage, and they can be destroyed without destroying the ship.
And as I said, the thorax doesnt get "BS fitting" on drones. The Gallente BSs all have larger dronebays.
It isn't a t3 cruiser either. The thorax has fewer slots than every other t3 cruiser.
Exactly! but the drones it currently gets are FAR more valuable than the slots it doesn't have. Emphasis on the FAR. Ill agree to chopping it's dronebay then, on the condition that it is given more PG/CPU AND more slots.
The Brutix is a specialty ship, so I dont consider it a "class above". Nor do I consider a destroyer a "class above" frigs. But I can respect that. Fine, there is *one* ship above it with less.
They are the same class of ship. Specialty designs, variations on the thorax... you have no argument here.
With MAX skills (note that this is more training time then the gunnery skills listed), using the most damaging drone (also lowest speed and tracking), 8 drones do 176.
Well isnt that convenient for you?
With no skill over 3, a megathron with 7 425mm rails with AM does over 225 DPS, with another 220 from drones, for a total of 445+. This is without dmg mods. To be honest, i think that you are insulting me (as it is clear that you are refering to what i said by the way). Not you, just the argument. The argument is retarded. Should have been clear by that fact that I neither mentioned names, nor quoted. Laugh all you want, you are the want looking silly because i proved you wrong with the actual numbers. No, you tweeked numbers for the sole purpose of making yourself look right. Try again! |
Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:01:00 -
[171] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 23/08/2005 22:04:35
Wrong, it is a close range, heavy damage dealer. Including both drones and blasters.
Why? It is in a higher tier, in the drone specialist race...
Oh goody, an actual point that pertains to the argument! And here I was thinking you weren't capable of that. Ok, so drones track well, but take time to find thier target and start the damage, and they can be destroyed without destroying the ship.
And as I said, the thorax doesnt get "BS fitting" on drones. The Gallente BSs all have larger dronebays.
It isn't a t3 cruiser either. The thorax has fewer slots than every other t3 cruiser.
Exactly! but the drones it currently gets are FAR more valuable than the slots it doesn't have. Emphasis on the FAR. Ill agree to chopping it's dronebay then, on the condition that it is given more PG/CPU AND more slots.
The Brutix is a specialty ship, so I dont consider it a "class above". Nor do I consider a destroyer a "class above" frigs. But I can respect that. Fine, there is *one* ship above it with less.
They are the same class of ship. Specialty designs, variations on the thorax... you have no argument here.
With MAX skills (note that this is more training time then the gunnery skills listed), using the most damaging drone (also lowest speed and tracking), 8 drones do 176.
Well isnt that convenient for you?
With no skill over 3, a megathron with 7 425mm rails with AM does over 225 DPS, with another 220 from drones, for a total of 445+. This is without dmg mods. To be honest, i think that you are insulting me (as it is clear that you are refering to what i said by the way). Not you, just the argument. The argument is retarded. Should have been clear by that fact that I neither mentioned names, nor quoted. Laugh all you want, you are the want looking silly because i proved you wrong with the actual numbers. No, you tweeked numbers for the sole purpose of making yourself look right. Try again! |
Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:04:00 -
[172] As far as the "plate" issue goes. This is not a problem that is unique to the thorax. Oversized plates are a more general problem. They should adjuest speed of ship based on size of plate vs size of ship, like they do with AB and MWD. That a thorax may seem overpowered with oversized plates isn't a problem with the thorax- it is a problem with plates. |
Paradox Eve |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:04:00 -
[173] As far as the "plate" issue goes. This is not a problem that is unique to the thorax. Oversized plates are a more general problem. They should adjuest speed of ship based on size of plate vs size of ship, like they do with AB and MWD. That a thorax may seem overpowered with oversized plates isn't a problem with the thorax- it is a problem with plates. |
Sable Terrick |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:26:00 -
[174] Edited by: Sable Terrick on 23/08/2005 22:28:06 Edited by: Sable Terrick on 23/08/2005 22:27:28 As has been said in other forums. Nerf the plates.Either put size restrictions....50-200 on frigs,400-800 on cruisers and save 1600's for battleships. Also...all the Cruisers need to have a bit of a raise in overall power...but that will mean the HAC's need more of a boost...which is honestly something that only the Caldari HAC's need. As their HAC's lack the variation that the other Races have. I am planning onusing a Thorax as a training wheels sort of ship...getting used to getting close and blasting something all to hell. If you increased the PG so it could fit T2 ions and a moderate tank then it wouldnt need to rely on its drones...which it shouldnt be anyways.give it 100m/3 drone space and it can fly 10 medium drones...with the T2 ions it would be doing 25% less damage then a deimos...and thats not something to sneeze at. I think it would still be quite powerful....but it would be powerful in the role it was meant for rather then it taking the spot of the drone carrier for the class. In all honesty they should hardwire things so that you cant fit a higher class of module then the ship your flying. Either way im training for a Thorax and i dont plan on using drones exclusively on it. After all..its only short one 25% damage mod from it....and thats only if i had HAC 5. Or....for all those people that are saying the thorax is fine....are you guys as willing to give the deimos a 200 m/3 drone bay I know its just a game but i really wonder how many of these mouthy F*cks would have the stones to say that sort of thing in real life. |
 Sable Terrick Caldari Vendetta Underground Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:26:00 -
[175] Edited by: Sable Terrick on 23/08/2005 22:28:06 Edited by: Sable Terrick on 23/08/2005 22:27:28 As has been said in other forums. Nerf the plates.Either put size restrictions....50-200 on frigs,400-800 on cruisers and save 1600's for battleships. Also...all the Cruisers need to have a bit of a raise in overall power...but that will mean the HAC's need more of a boost...which is honestly something that only the Caldari HAC's need. As their HAC's lack the variation that the other Races have. I am planning onusing a Thorax as a training wheels sort of ship...getting used to getting close and blasting something all to hell. If you increased the PG so it could fit T2 ions and a moderate tank then it wouldnt need to rely on its drones...which it shouldnt be anyways.give it 100m/3 drone space and it can fly 10 medium drones...with the T2 ions it would be doing 25% less damage then a deimos...and thats not something to sneeze at. I think it would still be quite powerful....but it would be powerful in the role it was meant for rather then it taking the spot of the drone carrier for the class. In all honesty they should hardwire things so that you cant fit a higher class of module then the ship your flying. Either way im training for a Thorax and i dont plan on using drones exclusively on it. After all..its only short one 25% damage mod from it....and thats only if i had HAC 5. Or....for all those people that are saying the thorax is fine....are you guys as willing to give the deimos a 200 m/3 drone bay I wonder how many of these mouthy F*cks would have the stones to say that without a keyboard to hide behin |
kessah |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:31:00 -
[176] /signed nerf the drone bay. Its stealing the Vexors thunder tbh While your at it lets see Tachyon pulse lasers and lower grid req's for Beam lasers. Except for Tachs ofc. -------------------------------------------------------- |
 kessah Caldari Veto. |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:31:00 -
[177] /signed nerf the drone bay. Its stealing the Vexors thunder tbh While your at it lets see Tachyon pulse lasers and lower grid req's for Beam lasers. Except for Tachs ofc. -------------------------------------------------------- Forever Pirate 2 |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:32:00 -
[178]
I am sorry but thats just stupid. The only Problem with plates is that Shield Extenders AREN't as good as Armor Plates. Not speed, not agility, not anything else. The problem with the drone bay is that it is FAR TOO BIG at this point in EVE. Do I think 100m3 is too little? Only if they don't increase some other stats of it such as pgrid. CPU on hybrids isn't the thorax's fault it is a fault of the gun design and ALL of them need to be balanced according to the ship classes they go to. If everything ut the drone bay stayed the same... I would say 150m3 for the thorax and 2000 to 2500 for the Vexor. I stand with Naughty Boy on this... you guys and gals are just being un-freaking-reasonable. I can fly ANY cruiser in this game equally in all ways shape or forms and the moment I leave my munnin for something smaller is the moment I step into a thorax. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
 Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:32:00 -
[179]
I am sorry but thats just stupid. The only Problem with plates is that Shield Extenders AREN't as good as Armor Plates. Not speed, not agility, not anything else. The problem with the drone bay is that it is FAR TOO BIG at this point in EVE. Do I think 100m3 is too little? Only if they don't increase some other stats of it such as pgrid. CPU on hybrids isn't the thorax's fault it is a fault of the gun design and ALL of them need to be balanced according to the ship classes they go to. If everything ut the drone bay stayed the same... I would say 150m3 for the thorax and 2000 to 2500 for the Vexor. I stand with Naughty Boy on this... you guys and gals are just being un-freaking-reasonable. I can fly ANY cruiser in this game equally in all ways shape or forms and the moment I leave my munnin for something smaller is the moment I step into a thorax. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:49:00 -
[180] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:54:58 The fact that the thorax has more drone bay than the vexor makes the vexor very unappealing in comparison. You are also hidding a large part of my reply here. I did not do that with any of you arguments. See my moa analogy. There is no sence giving the moa more missile hardpoints than to the caracal. I was messing around with a plated rifter around a shield tanked mining megathron. In a fast close orbit his Ogre drones slaughtered me, and i wasn't webbed or nossed or whatever. Whatever you think, no drawback will be harsh enough to compensate for that, no matter what you think. Common! Give the moa 3 cruise launchers, it has less than the scorpion so all is fine and all. Stop that, you are not funny. So you want the thorax to have as many slots as others tier 3 cruisers, yet my caracal shall not get as many slots than other tier 2 cruisers because IT IS NOT A FRICKIN TIER 3 cruiser ? What is that for a reason. Okay, so be it, all fine to me. At least we agree on something. But what slot ? It is not THAT simple. That is an uncommon conception, seeing as they are designed to kill said classes. A battlecruiser, in my mind, was designed to kill cruisers and hence, is in a class above. Fair enough. Assault cruisers are still cruisers, ok. But to be honest i fail to see the relevance here. I didn't have the exact numbers to do the math, i stand corrected. This just doesn't prove the whole debate irrelevant by any mean, it's not like that was the only argument.
As far as i can tell we are not comparing the total damage output of the thorax with the total damage output of the raven. We are comparing the drones of the thorax (his main damage source currently, in the particular setup that is showing the problem we are discussing) VS the damage output of a pre-patch torp-raven (counting only his main damage source). That seemed fair to me, but i see how convenient it is to you to write what you write. We were comparing comparable things, you propose not to. See above. How exactly is the argument retarded ? Because you said so ? How convenient. (continued) |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:49:00 -
[181] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:54:58 The fact that the thorax has more drone bay than the vexor makes the vexor very unappealing in comparison. You are also hidding a large part of my reply here. I did not do that with any of you arguments. See my moa analogy. There is no sence giving the moa more missile hardpoints than to the caracal. I was messing around with a plated rifter around a shield tanked mining megathron. In a fast close orbit his Ogre drones slaughtered me, and i wasn't webbed or nossed or whatever. Whatever you think, no drawback will be harsh enough to compensate for that, no matter what you think. Common! Give the moa 3 cruise launchers, it has less than the scorpion so all is fine and all. Stop that, you are not funny. So you want the thorax to have as many slots as others tier 3 cruisers, yet my caracal shall not get as many slots than other tier 2 cruisers because IT IS NOT A FRICKIN TIER 3 cruiser ? What is that for a reason. Okay, so be it, all fine to me. At least we agree on something. But what slot ? It is not THAT simple. That is an uncommon conception, seeing as they are designed to kill said classes. A battlecruiser, in my mind, was designed to kill cruisers and hence, is in a class above. Fair enough. Assault cruisers are still cruisers, ok. But to be honest i fail to see the relevance here. I didn't have the exact numbers to do the math, i stand corrected. This just doesn't prove the whole debate irrelevant by any mean, it's not like that was the only argument.
As far as i can tell we are not comparing the total damage output of the thorax with the total damage output of the raven. We are comparing the drones of the thorax (his main damage source currently, in the particular setup that is showing the problem we are discussing) VS the damage output of a pre-patch torp-raven (counting only his main damage source). That seemed fair to me, but i see how convenient it is to you to write what you write. We were comparing comparable things, you propose not to. See above. How exactly is the argument retarded ? Because you said so ? How convenient. (continued) In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:50:00 -
[182] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:51:09 The only number that i had wrong was the drone damage, it was off by 13% if i account max skills and maybe 25% if you downgrade skills to similar level. This, in no way, does make you right about everything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:50:00 -
[183] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 22:51:09 The only number that i had wrong was the drone damage, it was off by 13% if i account max skills and maybe 25% if you downgrade skills to similar level. This, in no way, does make you right about everything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Joshua Foiritain |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:51:00 -
[184]
Myt Thorax Vs corp members Vigi = Me Win. My Vigi vs corp Thorax = He win. We tried every setuo we could imagine, 8 Ogres will *****a vigi without any real problems. Especially since the thorax can deak 4 damage types. The Vigi's bonusus are cute but they dont compare to 8 ogres. [Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
 Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 22:51:00 -
[185]
Myt Thorax Vs corp members Vigi = Me Win. My Vigi vs corp Thorax = He win. We tried every setuo we could imagine, 8 Ogres will *****a vigi without any real problems. Especially since the thorax can deak 4 damage types. The Vigi's bonusus are cute but they dont compare to 8 ogres. [Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Voltron |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:00:00 -
[186]
No its not........you just have to pick and choose your fights.....i've been flying the same stupid stabber for about a week now......no freakin clue how its still alive, it has no plate and only a small rep....and it sees pvp daily, not ganksquad pvp either. Volt |
Voltron Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:00:00 -
[187]
No its not........you just have to pick and choose your fights.....i've been flying the same stupid stabber for about a week now......no freakin clue how its still alive, it has no plate and only a small rep....and it sees pvp daily, not ganksquad pvp either. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it? |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:03:00 -
[188] If you pick your fights, yeah, any ship will last for a bit. Unforetunately, without plates battleships can press that instawin button against cruisers. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:03:00 -
[189] If you pick your fights, yeah, any ship will last for a bit. Unforetunately, without plates battleships can press that instawin button against cruisers. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:09:00 -
[190]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Aside from the drone bonus on the Vexor (an added bonus when cruisers were beefed up a while back, not an original feature) drones are not even mentioned in the description. Meanwhile, the Thorax description makes mention of blasters and "hordes of drones" to take apart its enemy. Thorax has low grid compared to other cruisers. Thorax has fewer slots compared to cruisers in its class. It makes up for this with "hordes of drones." There are ways to beat thoraxes...and a rupture with tech 2 howies can do it easily...particularly if the thorax is mwd-ing. The thorax needs its superior DoT because it has less time to do that damage in. Plain and simple. Having to run at least 15 seconds through withering fire with mwd on before you can land a single hit is punishing to say the least. Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage. Besides, as established, it is the premier drone cruiser of a drone-favoring race. So this is not a problem. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:09:00 -
[191]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Aside from the drone bonus on the Vexor (an added bonus when cruisers were beefed up a while back, not an original feature) drones are not even mentioned in the description. Meanwhile, the Thorax description makes mention of blasters and "hordes of drones" to take apart its enemy. Thorax has low grid compared to other cruisers. Thorax has fewer slots compared to cruisers in its class. It makes up for this with "hordes of drones." There are ways to beat thoraxes...and a rupture with tech 2 howies can do it easily...particularly if the thorax is mwd-ing. The thorax needs its superior DoT because it has less time to do that damage in. Plain and simple. Having to run at least 15 seconds through withering fire with mwd on before you can land a single hit is punishing to say the least. Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage. Besides, as established, it is the premier drone cruiser of a drone-favoring race. So this is not a problem. |
Dragon Slave |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:17:00 -
[192]
What kind of reasoning is that? Can a battleship beat 250+ frigates? Ofcourse not, it's a matter of how much ISK you're willing to pay for extra HP and firepower. |
 Dragon Slave Gallente Tranquil Transactions |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:17:00 -
[193]
What kind of reasoning is that? Can a battleship beat 250+ frigates? Ofcourse not, it's a matter of how much ISK you're willing to pay for extra HP and firepower. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:19:00 -
[194] "Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage." People flied Thoraxes before the armour plates got the boost. You didn't really hear them ***** "omg i die too fast and don't do enough damage to kill things after i get within range". There wasn't really much *****ing about Thorax being overpowered, either. Was pretty clear deal: you managed to kill approaching Thorax, you won. You didn't, you were screwed. There's lot of complaints about Thorax' "uberperformance" after the plate boost, though. Coincidence? maybe... or maybe the 'high damage at price of high fragility' balance thing got tipped somehow. >>; |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:19:00 -
[195] "Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage." People flied Thoraxes before the armour plates got the boost. You didn't really hear them ***** "omg i die too fast and don't do enough damage to kill things after i get within range". There wasn't really much *****ing about Thorax being overpowered, either. Was pretty clear deal: you managed to kill approaching Thorax, you won. You didn't, you were screwed. There's lot of complaints about Thorax' "uberperformance" after the plate boost, though. Coincidence? maybe... or maybe the 'high damage at price of high fragility' balance thing got tipped somehow. >>; |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:20:00 -
[196]
To use your own argument... the MWD bonus wasn't an original feature of the Thorax so. So don't go tearing down one bonus based argument then assume your stance around one. Second...the DEVS wanted to curb the drones before and were yelled out of it because of carebear miners. Look I don't want the thorax to die a horrible nerf. I want it balanced. Its overpowered in PvE and in PvP. We aren't talking about roles here... like it being a primary Kin, Therm damage dealer so it needs to kill Minmatar and Amarr ships not Caldari or Gallente. We are talking about it being able to kill ANY ship with ease and not because it can fit a plate. ANY combat cruiser can fit a plate. The problem TODAY lies with the drone bay and the drone bay alone. This doesn't mean we don't think it needs boosting, because if they take the drones from it then it most certainly will. But all cruisers could stand a boost somewhere to make them even more attractive. PvP would benefit from it in general because of less money lost. ATM... too many people stay in empire because they don't want to loose their BS, HAC and faction ships. Give them a reason to use cruisers and you will see the true EXODUS to 0.0. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:20:00 -
[197]
To use your own argument... the MWD bonus wasn't an original feature of the Thorax so. So don't go tearing down one bonus based argument then assume your stance around one. Second...the DEVS wanted to curb the drones before and were yelled out of it because of carebear miners. Look I don't want the thorax to die a horrible nerf. I want it balanced. Its overpowered in PvE and in PvP. We aren't talking about roles here... like it being a primary Kin, Therm damage dealer so it needs to kill Minmatar and Amarr ships not Caldari or Gallente. We are talking about it being able to kill ANY ship with ease and not because it can fit a plate. ANY combat cruiser can fit a plate. The problem TODAY lies with the drone bay and the drone bay alone. This doesn't mean we don't think it needs boosting, because if they take the drones from it then it most certainly will. But all cruisers could stand a boost somewhere to make them even more attractive. PvP would benefit from it in general because of less money lost. ATM... too many people stay in empire because they don't want to loose their BS, HAC and faction ships. Give them a reason to use cruisers and you will see the true EXODUS to 0.0. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[198] Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered. Much like battleship sized afterburners did for certain cruisers. But drones are a thoraxes bread and butter, and this thread makes the rediculous case that its drone capacity should be cut in half. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[199]
And, if it fits small pulse/beams/rails instead of small blaster, you have a "i win" button. What the thorax has to do is what EVERY CRUISER HAS TO DO outside of niche role, as sniping for moa, rupture, and caracal. Well all know how that last part blows so give us a break with that. It is never funny to stay in a cruiser at the optimal of a battleship, mwd'ing to it or staying there sniping. But, to top it up, after fitting the almost necessary plate and frig guns*, you have 150 dps of drones, when other tier 3 cruiser get a nos and extra resist (maller), an extra mid and no agility to speak of (moa) or the ability to use the smallest autocannon and thus, not wasting a bonus and still having decent tracking. To bad you need the bonus to be on par with other gun types. If you think that 150 dps is as good as the other bonus, well... *By the way, fitting frigate guns on a cruiser, plates or not, is not a sacrifice unless you are sniping. See above. Tracking is much more important, and the lowest damage more than makes up for it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[200] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:28:32 Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered. Much like battleship sized afterburners did for certain cruisers. But drones are a thoraxes bread and butter, and this thread makes the rediculous case that its drone capacity should be cut in half.
I'm not basing any arguments on bonuses. I'm basing arguments on descriptions. The Vexor is a good, all-round surviveable combat ship. The thorax is a drone boat. Plain and simple. The drone bonus for the vexor actually allowed it to fill that roll better (Vexor was plain garbage before the change) and the mwd bonus allowed the thorax to fill its roll better as well. No, I'm not implying a double-standard. Why not fix the "plate" issue? A common-sense precident has already been set with afterburners and mwd's...so why not with armor plate? I can concede that it makes no sense for a 1600mm plate to have the same effect on the velocity and agility of my thorax as a 400mm plate. If thoraxes stop showing up to combat with battleship size hit-points, everybody is quickly going to see how vulnerable a ship it truly is. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[201]
And, if it fits small pulse/beams/rails instead of small blaster, you have a "i win" button. What the thorax has to do is what EVERY CRUISER HAS TO DO outside of niche role, as sniping for moa, rupture, and caracal. Well all know how that last part blows so give us a break with that. It is never funny to stay in a cruiser at the optimal of a battleship, mwd'ing to it or staying there sniping. But, to top it up, after fitting the almost necessary plate and frig guns*, you have 150 dps of drones, when other tier 3 cruiser get a nos and extra resist (maller), an extra mid and no agility to speak of (moa) or the ability to use the smallest autocannon and thus, not wasting a bonus and still having decent tracking. To bad you need the bonus to be on par with other gun types. If you think that 150 dps is as good as the other bonus, well... *By the way, fitting frigate guns on a cruiser, plates or not, is not a sacrifice unless you are sniping. See above. Tracking is much more important, and the lowest damage more than makes up for it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:25:00 -
[202]
Give me 6 missiles hardpoint and 4 gun hardpoints, plsu the fitting for it, on my moa, and there will be no problem either. God, i was almost going to type that in all caps, in hope you would see easily how wrong that is. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:25:00 -
[203]
Give me 6 missiles hardpoint and 4 gun hardpoints, plsu the fitting for it, on my moa, and there will be no problem either. God, i was almost going to type that in all caps, in hope you would see easily how wrong that is. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:28:00 -
[204] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/08/2005 23:29:03 "Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered." It's probably the combination of these two things that makes thing go out of whack ^^; Thorax with heavy drones but light defense: okay Thorax with good armour but light weapons: okay Thorax with heavy drones and good armour: omgwtfbbq one has to give... and i suppose it's easier for people to ask about nerf aimed specifically at one ship that stands out the most(Thorax' drone bay) instead of all cruisers (oversized plates) ^^;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:28:00 -
[205] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/08/2005 23:29:03 "Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered." It's probably the combination of these two things that makes thing go out of whack ^^; Thorax with heavy drones but light defense: okay Thorax with good armour but light weapons: okay Thorax with heavy drones and good armour: omgwtfbbq one has to give... and i suppose it's easier for people to ask about nerf aimed specifically at one ship that stands out the most(Thorax' drone bay) instead of all cruisers (oversized plates) ^^;; |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:30:00 -
[206] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:29:50
And if you add small long range guns to that, you have a monster. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:30:00 -
[207] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:29:50
And if you add small long range guns to that, you have a monster. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:32:00 -
[208] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:34:29
Ignorance.
She's right. But let's go for quality and nerf the plate instead of nonsensical shortcut and nerf the drones. I can deal with a fragile thorax. I do it all the time now anyway, 'cause frankly I don't like giving up the damage bonuses for medium hybrids. *edit* Besides...nerf the drones on the thorax, and the plate WILL become an issue with another cruiser that steps up as "overpowered." Fix the right thing on the thorax, and we can save a lot of balancing heart-ache in the future. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:32:00 -
[209] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:34:29
Ignorance.
She's right. But let's go for quality and nerf the plate instead of nonsensical shortcut and nerf the drones. I can deal with a fragile thorax. I do it all the time now anyway, 'cause frankly I don't like giving up the damage bonuses for medium hybrids. *edit* Besides...nerf the drones on the thorax, and the plate WILL become an issue with another cruiser that steps up as "overpowered." Fix the right thing on the thorax, and we can save a lot of balancing heart-ache in the future. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:35:00 -
[210] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:50:37 I'd like to be less ignorant. Care to explain ? Edit: Caldari are long range, that mean railguns and missiles. So it is ok to have railguns and missiles on the same ships, and it is ok if the moa, despite being primarily a gunboat, has more missiles launchers than the caracal because it is a higher thier ship. This is perfectly logic according to your own logic, so take that IGNORANCE statement back. Or, please reconsider your previous affirmation regarding the fact that the thorax has both more drones and more guns than the specialized drone carrier, and that is it perfectly fine. Thank you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:35:00 -
[211] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/08/2005 23:50:37 I'd like to be less ignorant. Care to explain ? Edit: Caldari are long range, that mean railguns and missiles. So it is ok to have railguns and missiles on the same ships, and it is ok if the moa, despite being primarily a gunboat, has more missiles launchers than the caracal because it is a higher thier ship. This is perfectly logic according to your own logic, so take that IGNORANCE statement back. Or, please reconsider your previous affirmation regarding the fact that the thorax has both more drones and more guns than the specialized drone carrier, and that is it perfectly fine. Thank you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:58:00 -
[212]
Your example was rediculously overboard and, now that I see your edit, I was right...the comparison was based in ignorance:
The assertion (and it's not mine...it's the ship description) is that the thorax IS the specialized drone carrier. The Vexor doesn't compare, because the Vexor is a teir II cruiser. You can't call one a drone carrier and the other a blaster boat. The thorax is just plain "a better ship." Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:58:00 -
[213]
Your example was rediculously overboard and, now that I see your edit, I was right...the comparison was based in ignorance:
The assertion (and it's not mine...it's the ship description) is that the thorax IS the specialized drone carrier. The Vexor doesn't compare, because the Vexor is a teir II cruiser. You can't call one a drone carrier and the other a blaster boat. The thorax is just plain "a better ship." |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:03:00 -
[214]
Dude, don't believe everything you read, the cerberus should make "every armor tanker out there run for the hills" and we all know about this. You are the one showing ignorance here. Besides, 10 mediums drones instead of 8 heavy would not make the description of the thorax less accurate. Telling that the thorax is fine because it his how ccp designed it is a blatant provocation as we all know that only *****ing made ccp revert the change they made (halving the drone bay for balance's sake). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:03:00 -
[215]
Dude, don't believe everything you read, the cerberus should make "every armor tanker out there run for the hills" and we all know about this. You are the one showing ignorance here. Besides, 10 mediums drones instead of 8 heavy would not make the description of the thorax less accurate. Telling that the thorax is fine because it his how ccp designed it is a blatant provocation as we all know that only *****ing made ccp revert the change they made (halving the drone bay for balance's sake). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:08:00 -
[216]
Halving the drone bay will not fix any balance issues. Plain and simple. If any "nerf" needs to take place, it's the ability of a cruiser to mount battleship sized armor with no penalty. Try this out some time: have an un-plated thorax run at you on mwd from, say, 30km away. Open up with your moa. See what happens. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:08:00 -
[217]
Halving the drone bay will not fix any balance issues. Plain and simple. If any "nerf" needs to take place, it's the ability of a cruiser to mount battleship sized armor with no penalty. Try this out some time: have an un-plated thorax run at you on mwd from, say, 30km away. Open up with your moa. See what happens. |
FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:09:00 -
[218] damn, I get more and more sick of the people who say nerf this and nerf this, its getting pretty old. maybe the thorax is more powerful than any other cruiser. but you know what who cares. atleast we have one tech 1 ship under 10M in this world of tech 2 this and tech 2 that that atleast can be a good ship for us not so wealthy pvpers to use. if anything boost the other ships because they need it more than the thorax needs to be nerfed. but if the devs do give into the complaining (have a feeling they will) atleast give the rax enough cpu/pg to fit a full rack of ions, and a decent tank. and give the drone bay to the brutix which should also receave a bit of a cpu boost, so that it could fit a rack of at least heavy electrons, and a decent tank without a RCU. need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information |
 FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:09:00 -
[219] damn, I get more and more sick of the people who say nerf this and nerf this, its getting pretty old. maybe the thorax is more powerful than any other cruiser. but you know what who cares. atleast we have one tech 1 ship under 10M in this world of tech 2 this and tech 2 that that atleast can be a good ship for us not so wealthy pvpers to use. if anything boost the other ships because they need it more than the thorax needs to be nerfed. but if the devs do give into the complaining (have a feeling they will) atleast give the rax enough cpu/pg to fit a full rack of ions, and a decent tank. and give the drone bay to the brutix which should also receave a bit of a cpu boost, so that it could fit a rack of at least heavy electrons, and a decent tank without a RCU. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:14:00 -
[220]
Nothing happens, the thorax warps out. That is the very reason why t1 cruisers have nowhere to leave outside of the plate + frig guns + drones. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:14:00 -
[221]
Nothing happens, the thorax warps out. That is the very reason why t1 cruisers have nowhere to leave outside of the plate + frig guns + drones. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:15:00 -
[222] FFS a god damn thorax can kill a deimos if you set it up the right way,mkay?No racial whines or anything,just gallente VS gallente.If the thorax should be all-around better than the vexor just cause it's tier 3,then deimos must surely be better than the thorax since it's tech2,huh? What most people try to say and some don't understand is this:ALL CRUISERS have a hard time in the game,and if you want survivability you must accept a reduced damage output on your ship.Otherwise gank-fit it and just kill your enemy first. The ONLY tech1 cruiser that can both tank and have a decent damage output AT THE SAME TIME is the thorax.Well,you gotta struggle to get in range first and THANK GOD FOR THAT.If you want the rax to be better than the vexor just cause it's tier3,that doesn't mean it should be better than all of the other tier3 cruisers.(by better i mean one setup versatility that requires speficic setups to counter,which leave the opposing ship totally gimped) And don't tell me about long range ganking ruptures,unless you have tried to fit one and realized that with such a setup it's a paper-thin-defense ship,not to mention that 1vs1 a rax will never loose to that even if it doesn't win.Ruppy can't tackle from 40km away now,can it? Boost grid/cpu on rax.Reduce drone bay size.Fix the rest of the cruisers so they can perform well in their intended roles.It's long overdue just like the mega pulse range adjustment.Gallente pilots weren't happy when the geddon was sniping them from 90km with the amarr equivalent of a blaster-type weapon.Now the rest of the community are not happy about the gallente cruiser fitting fat tanks and maintaining higher than average damage at the same time.If you want the extra damage,take the risk everyone has to take and fit a gank-no-tank setup on it,just like everyone else has to. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:15:00 -
[223] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 00:15:00
That would be awesome. And complaining about what they did when other people complained is fair game. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:15:00 -
[224] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 00:15:00
That would be awesome. And complaining about what they did when other people complained is fair game. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:15:00 -
[225] FFS a god damn thorax can kill a deimos if you set it up the right way,mkay?No racial whines or anything,just gallente VS gallente.If the thorax should be all-around better than the vexor just cause it's tier 3,then deimos must surely be better than the thorax since it's tech2,huh? What most people try to say and some don't understand is this:ALL CRUISERS have a hard time in the game,and if you want survivability you must accept a reduced damage output on your ship.Otherwise gank-fit it and just kill your enemy first. The ONLY tech1 cruiser that can both tank and have a decent damage output AT THE SAME TIME is the thorax.Well,you gotta struggle to get in range first and THANK GOD FOR THAT.If you want the rax to be better than the vexor just cause it's tier3,that doesn't mean it should be better than all of the other tier3 cruisers.(by better i mean one setup versatility that requires speficic setups to counter,which leave the opposing ship totally gimped) And don't tell me about long range ganking ruptures,unless you have tried to fit one and realized that with such a setup it's a paper-thin-defense ship,not to mention that 1vs1 a rax will never loose to that even if it doesn't win.Ruppy can't tackle from 40km away now,can it? Boost grid/cpu on rax.Reduce drone bay size.Fix the rest of the cruisers so they can perform well in their intended roles.It's long overdue just like the mega pulse range adjustment.Gallente pilots weren't happy when the geddon was sniping them from 90km with the amarr equivalent of a blaster-type weapon.Now the rest of the community are not happy about the gallente cruiser fitting fat tanks and maintaining higher than average damage at the same time.If you want the extra damage,take the risk everyone has to take and fit a gank-no-tank setup on it,just like everyone else has to. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:19:00 -
[226] Come, now. I could make the case that the moa warps out as well. This is simply a static example so you can see how much damage heavy missiles and medium rails will do to an mwd-ing target. Obviouly "teamwork" is going to come into play where proper combat is concerned. Seriously. Try it. Better still, fit an AB and target painter on the moa...move in the opposite direction, delaying the thorax further still, and making his sig radius all the more rediculously large. My point is that 8 drones don't mean beans if they can't get to you before you blow up the thorax. Furthermore, it's only fair that the thorax have superior DoT, because if it does reach its target, it's got a lot of catching up to do in the damage department. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:19:00 -
[227] Come, now. I could make the case that the moa warps out as well. This is simply a static example so you can see how much damage heavy missiles and medium rails will do to an mwd-ing target. Obviouly "teamwork" is going to come into play where proper combat is concerned. Seriously. Try it. Better still, fit an AB and target painter on the moa...move in the opposite direction, delaying the thorax further still, and making his sig radius all the more rediculously large. My point is that 8 drones don't mean beans if they can't get to you before you blow up the thorax. Furthermore, it's only fair that the thorax have superior DoT, because if it does reach its target, it's got a lot of catching up to do in the damage department. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:34:00 -
[228]
I did do it, and my tanked (heresy) stabber got pwned pretty hard against a caracal in the same way. But to be honest, that is not my point at all, as "if you are tackled" or "if he is tackled" is only relevant to "close range - long range discussion", nothing particularly relevant to our case. That is only true in the blaster + drones scenario. If you are tackled, you lose anyway. If you are not, why stay there for a fight you can't win ? My problem is the ability of the thorax to use with his plate and frig guns a whole lot of drone: the unique ability to fig bs plate + 8 heavy drones + frig guns make this ship a monster, versatile and survivable, that is going to kill most of the other versatile ships+setups combo. Hence, you need a more specific, less versatile, hence less survivable setup to kill it. That is the general rule, with every ship and every possible setup i can fly. I believe that i am not a complete newbie in the fitting departement, and that according to my (limited and all) experience, this is not right. And i explained this with all the patience i had. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:34:00 -
[229] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 00:56:51
I did do it, and my tanked (heresy) stabber got pwned pretty hard against a caracal in the same way. But to be honest, that is not my point at all, as "if you are tackled" or "if he is tackled" is only relevant to "close range - long range discussion", nothing particularly relevant to our case. That is only true in the blaster + drones scenario. If you are tackled, you lose anyway. If you are not, why stay there for a fight you can't win ? My problem is the ability of the thorax to use with his plate and frig guns a whole lot of drones: the unique ability to fig bs plate + 8 heavy drones + frig guns make this ship a monster, versatile and survivable, that is going to kill most of the other versatile ships+setups combo. Hence, you need a more specific, less versatile, hence less survivable setup to kill it. That is the general rule, with every ship and every possible setup i can fly. I believe that i am not a complete newbie in the fitting departement, and that according to my (limited and all) experience, this is not right. And i explained this with all the patience i had. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
pardux |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:02:00 -
[230] dunno if i replied to this thread earlier... THORAX IS OVERPOWERED K? guess why they are the most popular cruisers? 4/5 cruisers i see are thoraxes and all plated with frig guns. |
 pardux The Collective Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:02:00 -
[231] dunno if i replied to this thread earlier... THORAX IS OVERPOWERED K? guess why they are the most popular cruisers? 4/5 cruisers i see are thoraxes and all plated with frig guns. |
DrunkenOne |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:06:00 -
[232] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 24/08/2005 01:06:36 Brutix is the best BC already, only a full t2 gankproph would have a chance vs it, and you want it boosted even more? Loller. btw the thorax is ridiculous nerf plz. |
 DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:06:00 -
[233] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 24/08/2005 01:06:36 Brutix is the best BC already, only a full t2 gankproph would have a chance vs it, and you want it boosted even more? Loller. btw the thorax is ridiculous nerf plz. Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:18:00 -
[234]
you keep saying this yet I have yet to find out your fittings....ahh screw it now that you aren't in 5 I'll just have to kill yah to find out  need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information |
FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:18:00 -
[235]
you keep saying this yet I have yet to find out your fittings....ahh screw it now that you aren't in 5 I'll just have to kill yah to find out |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:31:00 -
[236]
Sorry but the Oversized AB != Oversized Plates. There are delicate things in balance WHEN you have the speed to NOT be hit and tracking to hit WHILE having speed. Oversized plates do not make you Invulnerable to enemy ships. It makes fights last longer. You can use hardners, membranes on the lows to mitigate or enahance the same attributes. You can also conversely shield tank on other ships. You can also use your speed to mitigate being hit by a plated ship. You could only use Oversized and dual fitted ABs and nanofibers that enhanced them even more to compete or compensate. MWDs were poinless w. Oversized ABs. This is not the case with Oversized plates. You can use speed to mitigate the firepower coming from a cruiser in a smaller ship EXEPT for a thorax with its HUGE drone bay that wtfpwnbbq's frigs and other cruisers. It negates tactics to the Nth degree. It breaks gameplay and all you want to hold on to is a description. Son, my first char and some of my alts are gallente so don't try RP pride here. Its about logistics and statistics. You want to nerf a module to keep the uberness of the ship because it will STILL have tactical advantages over EVERY OTHER CRUISER in EVE's current state. The beauty of Cruisers is that it can either fit small guns/launchers and go for longevity or it can go for Medium Guns and raw DPS. The broken element in cruisers comes from throwback stats such as pgrid/cpu needs of Medium guns and small/large drone bays of a certain ships. If the Thorax gets 200m3 drones ... SIR ... I want 120m3 on a rupture. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:31:00 -
[237]
Sorry but the Oversized AB != Oversized Plates. There are delicate things in balance WHEN you have the speed to NOT be hit and tracking to hit WHILE having speed. Oversized plates do not make you Invulnerable to enemy ships. It makes fights last longer. You can use hardners, membranes on the lows to mitigate or enahance the same attributes. You can also conversely shield tank on other ships. You can also use your speed to mitigate being hit by a plated ship. You could only use Oversized and dual fitted ABs and nanofibers that enhanced them even more to compete or compensate. MWDs were poinless w. Oversized ABs. This is not the case with Oversized plates. You can use speed to mitigate the firepower coming from a cruiser in a smaller ship EXEPT for a thorax with its HUGE drone bay that wtfpwnbbq's frigs and other cruisers. It negates tactics to the Nth degree. It breaks gameplay and all you want to hold on to is a description. Son, my first char and some of my alts are gallente so don't try RP pride here. Its about logistics and statistics. You want to nerf a module to keep the uberness of the ship because it will STILL have tactical advantages over EVERY OTHER CRUISER in EVE's current state. The beauty of Cruisers is that it can either fit small guns/launchers and go for longevity or it can go for Medium Guns and raw DPS. The broken element in cruisers comes from throwback stats such as pgrid/cpu needs of Medium guns and small/large drone bays of a certain ships. If the Thorax gets 200m3 drones ... SIR ... I want 120m3 on a rupture. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Imran |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:35:00 -
[238] Thorax really hasnt changed in almost 2 years, except the xtra bonus. Just beacuse you got owned by a 1600mm rax plate in your arma or somthing dosnt mean you should nerf it, grow up. The thorax is good as it it. Boost every other crusier. |
 Imran Fate. |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:35:00 -
[239] Thorax really hasnt changed in almost 2 years, except the xtra bonus. Just beacuse you got owned by a 1600mm rax plate in your arma or somthing dosnt mean you should nerf it, grow up. The thorax is good as it it. Boost every other crusier. EwokPoacher: Why hate Gallente? Blackest Sheep: Because we are beautiful Ch33z0rs: Pirating is such a harsh term. I prefer unil |
DrunkenOne |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:41:00 -
[240]
I cant even fly one effectively  .Time to train up on sisi! |
DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:41:00 -
[241]
I cant even fly one effectively .Time to train up on sisi! Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:44:00 -
[242] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51
I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:44:00 -
[243] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51
I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:45:00 -
[244]
This thread shows exactly how increasing the damage of all cruisers in a similar way than the thorax is not going to make them more survivable overall, which is exactly the current problem. Thanks for not reading the thread, totally missing the point, coming with "common misconceptions" and making it completely obvious. You sir, deserve all my gratitude for doing this is such a quick and efficient, yet "class" manner  .Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:45:00 -
[245]
This thread shows exactly how increasing the damage of all cruisers in a similar way than the thorax is not going to make them more survivable overall, which is exactly the current problem. Thanks for not reading the thread, totally missing the point, coming with "common misconceptions" and making it completely obvious. You sir, deserve all my gratitude for doing this is such a quick and efficient, yet "class" manner .Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:20:00 -
[246] This couldn't have come at a better time.A member of my alliance just attacked an apoc,a caracal and a raven in his thorax.He killed the caracal and the apoc before the raven popped him.I agree that some personal skill and luck is always involed,but please do that in any other tier3 cruiser,or better yet a HAC and i will agree it's balanced.Otherwise i want a 120m3 drone bay on the minnie cruisers and HAC's as well. Apoc Kill Caracal Kill Thorax Kill - Please take note of the fittings |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:20:00 -
[247] This couldn't have come at a better time.A member of my alliance just attacked an apoc,a caracal and a raven in his thorax.He killed the caracal and the apoc before the raven popped him.I agree that some personal skill and luck is always involed,but please do that in any other tier3 cruiser,or better yet a HAC and i will agree it's balanced.Otherwise i want a 120m3 drone bay on the minnie cruisers and HAC's as well. Apoc Kill Caracal Kill Thorax Kill - Please take note of the fittings |
Istvaan Shogaatsu |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:30:00 -
[248] BlackDog wins the thread. I agree, by the way - the Rax is disproportionately deadly compared to other tier 3 cruisers, and the solution probably lies in boosting them instead of nerfing it. |
 Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:30:00 -
[249] BlackDog wins the thread. I agree, by the way - the Rax is disproportionately deadly compared to other tier 3 cruisers, and the solution probably lies in boosting them instead of nerfing it. |
Fierce Deity |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:36:00 -
[250] Naughty i thought you were leaving this topic to play high and mighty 3 times over, and 2 pages back? Your still posting, just in case you didn't realise. You can kill a Rax easy, there is many ways to do it with many other ships. Your argument is that you have to gimp yourself against other ships in order to kill a rax? Well i'm sorry you have to (god forbid) use a different set up to kill a different kind of ship. I was under a huge misconception that a ship that is set up different from another ship of the same class was diversity (diversity=different no?). Oh how wrong i was, you want to nerf all other ships so you don't have to go back to your hanger once and a while and change your set up. Ok, why don't we just do away with all the mods and have all ships have built in set ups, then your prolem would be solved. All cruisers tbo suck, they are not usful in a fleet engagment, unless your in a bb and wanna jam some targets maybe. Now we have a cruiser that isn't completely usless, and you wanna wack the cruiser back down to the level of the rest so they are all usless again. If that is your idea of balanced, then yes please nerf the thorax to make all cruisers equally usless. Or, and i'm going on a limb here, we could make all the cruisers on par with the rax and they would all be usfull. Hmm, usless, or usfull? it's a toughy i know. And for god's sakes wat is this bs sized gun that the thorax can mount? A 425 rail? mega electron blaster? what? because you keep referring the the thorax mounting a bs sized gun then why shouldn't a maller fit mega pulses? If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect... ------FD------ |
 Fierce Deity Gallente Hera Star |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:36:00 -
[251] Naughty i thought you were leaving this topic to play high and mighty 3 times over, and 2 pages back? Your still posting, just in case you didn't realise. You can kill a Rax easy, there is many ways to do it with many other ships. Your argument is that you have to gimp yourself against other ships in order to kill a rax? Well i'm sorry you have to (god forbid) use a different set up to kill a different kind of ship. I was under a huge misconception that a ship that is set up different from another ship of the same class was diversity (diversity=different no?). Oh how wrong i was, you want to nerf all other ships so you don't have to go back to your hanger once and a while and change your set up. Ok, why don't we just do away with all the mods and have all ships have built in set ups, then your prolem would be solved. All cruisers tbo suck, they are not usful in a fleet engagment, unless your in a bb and wanna jam some targets maybe. Now we have a cruiser that isn't completely usless, and you wanna wack the cruiser back down to the level of the rest so they are all usless again. If that is your idea of balanced, then yes please nerf the thorax to make all cruisers equally usless. Or, and i'm going on a limb here, we could make all the cruisers on par with the rax and they would all be usfull. Hmm, usless, or usfull? it's a toughy i know. And for god's sakes wat is this bs sized gun that the thorax can mount? A 425 rail? mega electron blaster? what? because you keep referring the the thorax mounting a bs sized gun then why shouldn't a maller fit mega pulses? If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect... ------FD------ Recruiting: Hera Star |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:53:00 -
[252] I don't use drones so this may seem fairly outrageous however I'd like you all to take a step back and take a look at this suggestion: 8 heavy drones can pump out 200 dps - this was shown earlier in the thread. A Cerberus (for those that have looked into it) will do on average, with good skills, ~250 dps. It seems to me a bit silly that drones can pump out comparative damage to any ship much less a heavy assault cruiser. Perhaps rather than nerfing the thorax, perhaps nerf drones? Their dps seems waaaay to high to somebody that doesn't use drones. |
 Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:53:00 -
[253] I don't use drones so this may seem fairly outrageous however I'd like you all to take a step back and take a look at this suggestion: 8 heavy drones can pump out 200 dps - this was shown earlier in the thread. A Cerberus (for those that have looked into it) will do on average, with good skills, ~250 dps. It seems to me a bit silly that drones can pump out comparative damage to any ship much less a heavy assault cruiser. Perhaps rather than nerfing the thorax, perhaps nerf drones? Their dps seems waaaay to high to somebody that doesn't use drones. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:55:00 -
[254] A cerebus can pump out the same damage at an extreme range and be able to run when the going gets tought. The Thorax is only able to pump out that damage at extreme close range. I agree perfectly with the person two posts above me - that the thorax is what all cruisers should be, a capable combat vessel that is deadly in skilled hands. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:55:00 -
[255] A cerebus can pump out the same damage at an extreme range and be able to run when the going gets tought. The Thorax is only able to pump out that damage at extreme close range. I agree perfectly with the person two posts above me - that the thorax is what all cruisers should be, a capable combat vessel that is deadly in skilled hands. |
DarK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:00:00 -
[256]
But with the Thorax one setup kills all:) That's ok right? Heavy drones are BS sized weapons because drone bay sizes accross the ship classes are proportional to drone space usage. You don't have a frig with 100m3 drone bay do you? Why do BS have 150m3+? The Thorax is an anomaly, it has a BS sized drone bay when it should have a cruiser sized one. There are no penalties for fitting Heavy drones over medium, it's firepower with no tanking cost, it is totally independant of your setup, that's not right. Just because it doesn't specifically say that heavy drones are BS sized weapons, doesn't mean you shouldn't use your brain and some deductive reasoning. I swear people that can't grasp this concept are the same types that spill their McDonalds coffee on themselves and then sue McDonalds because the coffee burnt their leg as there was no warning lable stating the coffee was hot:S |
 DarK STK Scientific |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:00:00 -
[257]
But with the Thorax one setup kills all:) That's ok right? Heavy drones are BS sized weapons because drone bay sizes accross the ship classes are proportional to drone space usage. You don't have a frig with 100m3 drone bay do you? Why do BS have 150m3+? The Thorax is an anomaly, it has a BS sized drone bay when it should have a cruiser sized one. There are no penalties for fitting Heavy drones over medium, it's firepower with no tanking cost, it is totally independant of your setup, that's not right. Just because it doesn't specifically say that heavy drones are BS sized weapons, doesn't mean you shouldn't use your brain and some deductive reasoning. I swear people that can't grasp this concept are the same types that spill their McDonalds coffee on themselves and then sue McDonalds because the coffee burnt their leg as there was no warning lable stating the coffee was hot:S |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:04:00 -
[258] Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 03:06:13
My point is that the Cerberus doesn't have another cruiser right next to it's target hammering it. It seems to me that if a pilot wanted to change their primary weapon (blasters) into secondary weapons, and their secondary weapon (drones) into primary weapons, there should be a penalty in efficiency not a huge increase. Something is definitely wrong there but I don't agree with changing the thorax. It is unique because of it's large drone bay and I'd prefer it stayed that way. EDIT: Added the quote to maintain order... the post above me wasn't there when I started typing this out |
Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:04:00 -
[259] Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 03:06:13
My point is that the Cerberus doesn't have another cruiser right next to it's target hammering it. It seems to me that if a pilot wanted to change their primary weapon (blasters) into secondary weapons, and their secondary weapon (drones) into primary weapons, there should be a penalty in efficiency not a huge increase. Something is definitely wrong there but I don't agree with changing the thorax. It is unique because of it's large drone bay and I'd prefer it stayed that way. EDIT: Added the quote to maintain order... the post above me wasn't there when I started typing this out |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:05:00 -
[260] "If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect..." I'd guess it's because drones come in three sizes: small, medium and heavy. Just like ship weapons come in three sizes: small, medium and large. (the actual names are largely irrelevant... lasers are named 'medium' 'heavy' and 'mega' while missile launchers are named 'standard' 'heavy' and 'siege') |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:05:00 -
[261] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 03:07:55 "If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect..." I'd guess it's because drones come in three sizes: small, medium and heavy. Just like ship weapons come in three sizes: small, medium and large*. (the actual names are largely irrelevant... lasers are named 'medium' 'heavy' and 'mega' while missile launchers are named 'standard' 'heavy' and 'siege') *) there's obviously 'x-large' ones as well now, but then it's also been announced carriers as capital ships might get their own suitably larger drone size as well |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:14:00 -
[262]
Much <3 for people who compare HACs to Cruisers. Actually, a Thorax with a 1600mm plate fitted, resistance mods, has more than twice the hit points of a Cerberus, does the same damage with its DRONE BAY (170 DPS) as a Cerberus does with 2 BCS and a decent tank fitted, and does MORE DPS than a GANK Cerberus with maxed skills (EVERYTHING lvl 5) and Tech 2 Heavy Launchers firing Scourge (260 DPS) if you count the damage from its 5 light Neutron Blasters as well. AND the Thorax can do 170 of its DPS with any damage type. If a Cerb switches from Scourges, its damage output drops 25%. SO don't give me that load of bull. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
 ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:14:00 -
[263]
Much <3 for people who compare HACs to Cruisers. Actually, a Thorax with a 1600mm plate fitted, resistance mods, has more than twice the hit points of a Cerberus, does the same damage with its DRONE BAY (170 DPS) as a Cerberus does with 2 BCS and a decent tank fitted, and does MORE DPS than a GANK Cerberus with maxed skills (EVERYTHING lvl 5) and Tech 2 Heavy Launchers firing Scourge (260 DPS) if you count the damage from its 5 light Neutron Blasters as well. AND the Thorax can do 170 of its DPS with any damage type. If a Cerb switches from Scourges, its damage output drops 25%. SO don't give me that load of bull. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Fierce Deity |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:16:00 -
[264] To that "deductive-ness", As stated in the thorax write up, it is a drone ship, in the drone race. it has said this since the start of the game. Does a maller fire lasers fire lasers better them other races? of course, and gee i wonder why. Sure the vexor now (reapeat now for good measure) has a drone bonus. That being said maybe it needs more drone cargo room, but thats a completely different debate now isn't it. And i donno about you but when i was in english class and i ended a rebuttle in "i win because your the type who trips over a corded phone and sues the phone company" i would have been thrown out of the class and failed in my panel disscussion project. ------FD------ |
Fierce Deity Gallente Hera Star |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:16:00 -
[265] To that "deductive-ness", As stated in the thorax write up, it is a drone ship, in the drone race. it has said this since the start of the game. Does a maller fire lasers fire lasers better them other races? of course, and gee i wonder why. Sure the vexor now (reapeat now for good measure) has a drone bonus. That being said maybe it needs more drone cargo room, but thats a completely different debate now isn't it. And i donno about you but when i was in english class and i ended a rebuttle in "i win because your the type who trips over a corded phone and sues the phone company" i would have been thrown out of the class and failed in my panel disscussion project. ------FD------ Recruiting: Hera Star |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:24:00 -
[266] Hey! The Caracal is the Missile Cruiser for the Missile race! So of course it deserves 5 Cruise missile launchers, right? -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:24:00 -
[267] Hey! The Caracal is the Missile Cruiser for the Missile race! So of course it deserves 5 Cruise missile launchers, right? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:27:00 -
[268] Ok...lets nerf the thorax as its way overpowered.. But, in doing so can we nerf the following ships as well, to bring them in line. Maller - This ship can beat a thorax, so its clearly overpowered. All Interceptors - All of these are far to overpowered as they can beat all ships bigger then them in groups and in some cases solo. All Assault Frigs - By the logic found here in this thread, because AF's can beat cruisers solo they are far too over powered.. more so the gisti harpy.. (either nerf the ship or change it so it can't fit such an overpowered item.) The Arbitrator - It makes no sence that this ship has a drone bay of 150, being as the Gallente are supposed to be the main drone race. The Typhoon's drone bay - thats far too big. See its easy to spot what ships are overpowered if you go looking for it, it seems that its only in the last two months that someone lost his ship to a plated rax, and is crying about it. The problem isn't the drone bay its the oversized plate. (tbh, this cry for nerfing the thorax has come about since the missle patch.) Before that the rax was fine, not a peep of people wanting it nerfed.. oh and the rax did get a drone bay nerf after the cruisers got their second bonus.. iirc, it was from 2500 to 2000 (in todays figures 250 to 200) strange that back then it was deemed that the rax should be able to use at least 8 heavy drones.. Oh and one other smaller point, whatever increases you give to the thorax.. your going to have to give them to the deimos. (but hey... i don't mind about that.) (speeling punctuation and grammer.. may or may not be present in this post as its silly o'clock in the morning.) |
 Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:27:00 -
[269] Ok...lets nerf the thorax as its way overpowered.. But, in doing so can we nerf the following ships as well, to bring them in line. Maller - This ship can beat a thorax, so its clearly overpowered. All Interceptors - All of these are far to overpowered as they can beat all ships bigger then them in groups and in some cases solo. All Assault Frigs - By the logic found here in this thread, because AF's can beat cruisers solo they are far too over powered.. more so the gisti harpy.. (either nerf the ship or change it so it can't fit such an overpowered item.) The Arbitrator - It makes no sence that this ship has a drone bay of 150, being as the Gallente are supposed to be the main drone race. The Typhoon's drone bay - thats far too big. See its easy to spot what ships are overpowered if you go looking for it, it seems that its only in the last two months that someone lost his ship to a plated rax, and is crying about it. The problem isn't the drone bay its the oversized plate. (tbh, this cry for nerfing the thorax has come about since the missle patch.) Before that the rax was fine, not a peep of people wanting it nerfed.. oh and the rax did get a drone bay nerf after the cruisers got their second bonus.. iirc, it was from 2500 to 2000 (in todays figures 250 to 200) strange that back then it was deemed that the rax should be able to use at least 8 heavy drones.. Oh and one other smaller point, whatever increases you give to the thorax.. your going to have to give them to the deimos. (but hey... i don't mind about that.) (speeling punctuation and grammer.. may or may not be present in this post as its silly o'clock in the morning.) |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:35:00 -
[270] Theres a difference between ships that have been obviously designed and set up to kill another ship and ones who are IN GENERAL more powerful than the rest. So quit with your circular reasoning. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:35:00 -
[271] Theres a difference between ships that have been obviously designed and set up to kill another ship and ones who are IN GENERAL more powerful than the rest. So quit with your circular reasoning. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Sadist |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:38:00 -
[272]
Omfg, you're the first sane person, who actually realized that brutix doesnt suck. Grats. Wait, whats the topic about? Ah, who gives, nerf it to hell. ---------------
|
 Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:38:00 -
[273]
Omfg, you're the first sane person, who actually realized that brutix doesnt suck. Grats. Wait, whats the topic about? Ah, who gives, nerf it to hell. òòòòòòòòòòòò
|
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:40:00 -
[274]
Read these again. Look at the times. This is clearly why the Rax dronebay + New 1600mm plate = teh overpwning wtfbbq THE SOLUTIONÖ
Look ma I fixed all the problems at once! Cruisers viable! Thorax balanced! Plated ceptor stupidity fixed! World poverty abolished! Well....it fixes most of the problems. Quote the The SolutionÖ and sign to show your support! Nyxus PS- if anyone can post links to your rax getting pwned to show it's not uber I dare you to link them like Blackdog to prove it. |
 Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:40:00 -
[275]
Read these again. Look at the times. This is clearly why the Rax dronebay + New 1600mm plate = teh overpwning wtfbbq THE SOLUTIONÖ
Look ma I fixed all the problems at once! Cruisers viable! Thorax balanced! Plated ceptor stupidity fixed! World poverty abolished! Well....it fixes most of the problems. Quote the The SolutionÖ and sign to show your support! Nyxus PS- if anyone can post links to your rax getting pwned to show it's not uber I dare you to link them like Blackdog to prove it.
|
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:47:00 -
[276] "THE SOLUTIONÖ
o.o;; uhmm, make that 2-2.5k for (battle)cruisers and something like 1k for frigates, maybe? I mean, i don't really mind a Moa with more shield than a Scorpion... but the tier I battleship pilots would probably mind it -,o; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:47:00 -
[277] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 03:47:04 "THE SOLUTIONÖ
o.o;; uhmm, make that 2-2.5k for (battle)cruisers and something like 1k for frigates, maybe? I mean, i don't really mind a Moa with more shield than a Scorpion... but the tier I battleship pilots would probably mind it -,o; |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:02:00 -
[278]
Well I used 3300 becuase that is the frighteningly large numbers that cruisers get from a T2 1600mm plate. It seems to be the consensus requirement for them to be viable in PvP anymore. Anyhoo, I could be convinced to give them the equivalent to an 800mm plate, but I learned a long time ago that if you ask high, you can back down a bit and still be happy. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:02:00 -
[279]
Well I used 3300 becuase that is the frighteningly large numbers that cruisers get from a T2 1600mm plate. It seems to be the consensus requirement for them to be viable in PvP anymore. Anyhoo, I could be convinced to give them the equivalent to an 800mm plate, but I learned a long time ago that if you ask high, you can back down a bit and still be happy. Nyxus
|
Franky B |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:10:00 -
[280]
I dont wanna be the ******* that reigns on ugg's parade(still a great kill). but i think that the rax would have been flattended if that apoc pilot had even the SLIGHTEST idea how to fit an amarr ship. this says it all: Fitted - Medium slot Large Shield Booster I 1 Sensor Booster I 1 Barton Reactor Capacitor Recharger I 1 LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 1 Fitted - Low slot Power Diagnostic System I 2 Warp Core Stabilizer I 1 Co-Processor I |
 Franky B Mentally Unstable Enterprises |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:10:00 -
[281]
I dont wanna be the ******* that reigns on ugg's parade(still a great kill). but i think that the rax would have been flattended if that apoc pilot had even the SLIGHTEST idea how to fit an amarr ship. this says it all: Fitted - Medium slot Large Shield Booster I 1 Sensor Booster I 1 Barton Reactor Capacitor Recharger I 1 LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 1 Fitted - Low slot Power Diagnostic System I 2 Warp Core Stabilizer I 1 Co-Processor I |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:36:00 -
[282] Thorax pilots all know, but try to ignore:
All non thorax pilots know, but try to ignore that wihtout 8 havies thorax will fall to a crowd of noob ships, because:
My vote would be to remake thorax as:
Still i say its a hell of a pvp ship for full insurance and a week of skills. |
 Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:36:00 -
[283] Thorax pilots all know, but try to ignore:
All non thorax pilots know, but try to ignore that wihtout 8 havies thorax will fall to a crowd of noob ships, because:
My vote would be to remake thorax as:
Still i say its a hell of a pvp ship for full insurance and a week of skills. |
Franky B |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:54:00 -
[284] I was a strong defender of the thorax's drone bay for a long time... but SERIOUSLY, the argument for example, that the vexor is a T1 cruiser and the thorax is a T2 cruiser is moot. ccp designed the 2 or 3 teirs of ships not for "this one is BETTER than the other" but rather "this one does something that the other doesnt". the best example there are battleships. the 2 varieties you can fly arent better or worse than their counterparts, they just do certain things better... NOW the vexor... is COMPLETELY outclassed by the *****ax. I thought to myself "hey, lets try a nosxor setup". but after further thought... the thorax does it better. more speed, more cap, heavier drones, more PG, more tank. the thorax is SO much better than the vexor in every single way EXCEPT for say inty killing (where 14 light drones will take down an inty much better than 9) and even then, a thorax with 5x 150mm T2 guns/125mm T2 guns can do a pretty fair job of ripping through some intys (and the 1600mm plate just gives it even MORE time to do so) and throwing in the 1600mm plate just magnify's the problem. |
Franky B Mentally Unstable Enterprises |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:54:00 -
[285] I was a strong defender of the thorax's drone bay for a long time... but SERIOUSLY, the argument for example, that the vexor is a T1 cruiser and the thorax is a T2 cruiser is moot. ccp designed the 2 or 3 teirs of ships not for "this one is BETTER than the other" but rather "this one does something that the other doesnt". the best example there are battleships. the 2 varieties you can fly arent better or worse than their counterparts, they just do certain things better... NOW the vexor... is COMPLETELY outclassed by the *****ax. I thought to myself "hey, lets try a nosxor setup". but after further thought... the thorax does it better. more speed, more cap, heavier drones, more PG, more tank. the thorax is SO much better than the vexor in every single way EXCEPT for say inty killing (where 14 light drones will take down an inty much better than 9) and even then, a thorax with 5x 150mm T2 guns/125mm T2 guns can do a pretty fair job of ripping through some intys (and the 1600mm plate just gives it even MORE time to do so) and throwing in the 1600mm plate just magnify's the problem. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:00:00 -
[286] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 05:02:10 "Med guns by the way have so little advantage over frig one both in dps, and in case of blasters range, that practicaly there is no point in med guns at all, since they dont have real role now." Uhmm... * light electron blaster, skills maxed, no ship bonus: 13.84 dps * heavy electron blaster, skills maxed, Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps if ~70% more damage is 'little advantage' then it's kinda scary to think what a 'fair advantage' would be... :/ (the difference is same between 125mm rails and the 200mm rails, btw) |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:00:00 -
[287] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 05:02:10 "Med guns by the way have so little advantage over frig one both in dps, and in case of blasters range, that practicaly there is no point in med guns at all, since they dont have real role now." Uhmm... * light electron blaster, skills maxed, no ship bonus: 13.84 dps * heavy electron blaster, skills maxed, Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps if ~70% more damage is 'little advantage' then it's kinda scary to think what a 'fair advantage' would be... :/ (the difference is same between 125mm rails and the 200mm rails, btw) |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:02:00 -
[288] Nomen...your solution is fair, but no less infuriating. All of this "balancing" silliness is fast making every ship the same. Take away a drone-boats drones and give it more grid and gun-based power? Turn it into a maller or Moa? Feh. Fact is...take away the plate, and the thorax is actually quite easy to kill. That doesn't make me like it less, 'cause if you strap on, grit your teeth and just go for it, you can bring sick firpower to bear. It's a high risk, high return vessel. Fix the plate situation and you've got a vessel that has significantly more firepower than any other cruiser...and is significantly more fragile than any other cruiser. It balances, trust me. A non-plated thorax is just too easy to kill, because it's mwd-ing as it approaches. However, put in the effort to actually survive and get close...and you get your amazing rewards. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:02:00 -
[289] Nomen...your solution is fair, but no less infuriating. All of this "balancing" silliness is fast making every ship the same. Take away a drone-boats drones and give it more grid and gun-based power? Turn it into a maller or Moa? Feh. Fact is...take away the plate, and the thorax is actually quite easy to kill. That doesn't make me like it less, 'cause if you strap on, grit your teeth and just go for it, you can bring sick firpower to bear. It's a high risk, high return vessel. Fix the plate situation and you've got a vessel that has significantly more firepower than any other cruiser...and is significantly more fragile than any other cruiser. It balances, trust me. A non-plated thorax is just too easy to kill, because it's mwd-ing as it approaches. However, put in the effort to actually survive and get close...and you get your amazing rewards. |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:12:00 -
[290] ok all you who thin that rax aint 2 good, name 1 cruiser that can *****BS's easly, I'v killed so many BS's inrax past few days that I losr count....now, what cruiser can do it? |
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:12:00 -
[291] ok all you who thin that rax aint 2 good, name 1 cruiser that can *****BS's easly, I'v killed so many BS's inrax past few days that I losr count....now, what cruiser can do it? |
Lorth |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:18:00 -
[292] Errm, as much as I like having cruiser 5, and being able to fly the best cruiser by far, I think the thorax simply needs to have its drone bay reduced. And yes I know that cruisers in general suck. But lets at least get them to the same level, and then we can talk about boosting them all at the same time. Simply increasing cruiser damage to that of a thorax, really won't be easy, or solve all of the problems. And it really isn't the damage issue so much as it is an issue of agility, speed, hit points, ETC. None of which can be properally balanced if the thorax is still the cruiser of choice because of that blasted drone bay. BTW. Am I right in remembering that a thorax with maxed skills, out damages a deimos with maxed skills, simply because of the drone? |
 Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:18:00 -
[293] Errm, as much as I like having cruiser 5, and being able to fly the best cruiser by far, I think the thorax simply needs to have its drone bay reduced. And yes I know that cruisers in general suck. But lets at least get them to the same level, and then we can talk about boosting them all at the same time. Simply increasing cruiser damage to that of a thorax, really won't be easy, or solve all of the problems. And it really isn't the damage issue so much as it is an issue of agility, speed, hit points, ETC. None of which can be properally balanced if the thorax is still the cruiser of choice because of that blasted drone bay. BTW. Am I right in remembering that a thorax with maxed skills, out damages a deimos with maxed skills, simply because of the drone? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:19:00 -
[294]
Not sure anybody said the 'rax ain't good. Any short-range gank-kitted cruiser that drops out of warp on top of a battleship is gonna have a good chance to kill it. And if the battleship has NOS, heavy drones, or close range weapons itself, it's gonna do away with said cruiser quite swiftly...thorax or otherwise. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:19:00 -
[295]
Not sure anybody said the 'rax ain't good. Any short-range gank-kitted cruiser that drops out of warp on top of a battleship is gonna have a good chance to kill it. And if the battleship has NOS, heavy drones, or close range weapons itself, it's gonna do away with said cruiser quite swiftly...thorax or otherwise. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:30:00 -
[296]
You're forgetting the other side of the equation. As much extra firepower as the thorax has, it's terribly fragile without plate. Plate is the problem, not the thorax. Fitting battleship sized mods to cruisers is like jet-can mining: it was not so much intended to be a common practice. Re: nerfing the ability to fit up-sized afterburners to vessels. I curse the genius who came up with fitting 1600 plate to a thorax. Before that became common practice, the thorax was considered ****-poor for combat by the ignorant masses, and not many folks dared bring up something so rediculous as a "nerf." Only those who dared bring it into combat, specialize in close-range combat, and brave whithering fire on the approach appreciated its usefulness. Now, you can sacrifice a little bit of firpower to turn it into a tank with battleship-class armor and everybody is screaming NERF!! If anything needs nerfed, its the armor. NOT the drones. When you're down to less than half armor by the time your drones and blasters are in effective range, you NEED all that firepower. And that's what makes the thorax so unique, and so much fun. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:30:00 -
[297]
You're forgetting the other side of the equation. As much extra firepower as the thorax has, it's terribly fragile without plate. Plate is the problem, not the thorax. Fitting battleship sized mods to cruisers is like jet-can mining: it was not so much intended to be a common practice. Re: nerfing the ability to fit up-sized afterburners to vessels. I curse the genius who came up with fitting 1600 plate to a thorax. Before that became common practice, the thorax was considered ****-poor for combat by the ignorant masses, and not many folks dared bring up something so rediculous as a "nerf." Only those who dared bring it into combat, specialize in close-range combat, and brave whithering fire on the approach appreciated its usefulness. Now, you can sacrifice a little bit of firpower to turn it into a tank with battleship-class armor and everybody is screaming NERF!! If anything needs nerfed, its the armor. NOT the drones. When you're down to less than half armor by the time your drones and blasters are in effective range, you NEED all that firepower. And that's what makes the thorax so unique, and so much fun. |
Lorth |
Posted - 2005.08.24 06:02:00 -
[298]
No that thorax is still better, even if cruisers couldn't fit plates. And yes, while oversized plates are certainly a problem, they are certainly not the reason the thorax is unbalanced. And before 1600mm plates became common practice, thoarxes were still the most used cruiser, simply because they are overpowered. The only time, in recent memory that anouther cruiser has been as popular, was during the dual MWD maller days. Sure the thorax is unique, and I have a fair amount of fun in it. But the unbalanced amount of drones it carries, does make it unbalanced when compared to other cruisers. Cruisers need a boost, but how about we get them all on the same playing field before doing so? |
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.24 06:02:00 -
[299]
No that thorax is still better, even if cruisers couldn't fit plates. And yes, while oversized plates are certainly a problem, they are certainly not the reason the thorax is unbalanced. And before 1600mm plates became common practice, thoarxes were still the most used cruiser, simply because they are overpowered. The only time, in recent memory that anouther cruiser has been as popular, was during the dual MWD maller days. Sure the thorax is unique, and I have a fair amount of fun in it. But the unbalanced amount of drones it carries, does make it unbalanced when compared to other cruisers. Cruisers need a boost, but how about we get them all on the same playing field before doing so? |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 06:33:00 -
[300]
People generally complain about hybrid turrets lacking in general so feel free to apply this across the board: light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones. The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement. As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage. |
Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 06:33:00 -
[301]
People generally complain about hybrid turrets lacking in general so feel free to apply this across the board: light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones. The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement. As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage. |
FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 06:47:00 -
[302]
need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information |
FalloutBoy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 06:47:00 -
[303]
|
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 08:43:00 -
[304]I replied to people who replied to the answers i gave before. If that bothers you don't read the topic. Keep your sarcasm for your autocritic, you might need it. That is exactly the point. The thorax (plate + long range frig gun + heavy drones) with the same fitting is as effective against the smallest targets than the biggest targets. That is exactly what is said being wrong from the start of the thread. No other cruiser can do that, no other cruiser should be able to do that, and this is the exact problem. I don't care about needing to gimp my setup, especially since i can also fly the thorax, i care about the fact that the thorax doesn't have to. By the way, if i was only interested in flying a ship with a "i win" setup, i would be defending it against facts and odds as you are doing. Thus, keep the confusion in your mind if you want but get it out of this thread. See above, it is hilarious that your main argument against mine is exactly mine. You are defending something and its opposite, I'm voiceless. Ok, let me explains this to you with easy words and easy sentences. What the thorax has is too much versatility, granted especially by the drone bay. It has an extreme damage output thanks to it. The problem with cruisers is that they are not survivable enough: not enough speed, agility, hitpoints, too big signature, inability to tank outside of a plated setup. Increasing their damage output to make them on par with the thorax isn't going to make them more survivable: they are even going to die faster as the overall damage output will be higher. How can you defend such insanity for gods sake! Heavy drones are battleship weapons, medium pulse are frigate weapons. Using terminology to prove your points, in a discussion about balance, doesn't make you look wise. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 08:43:00 -
[305]I replied to people who replied to the answers i gave before. If that bothers you don't read the topic. Keep your sarcasm for your autocritic, you might need it. That is exactly the point. The thorax (plate + long range frig gun + heavy drones) with the same fitting is as effective against the smallest targets than the biggest targets. That is exactly what is said being wrong from the start of the thread. No other cruiser can do that, no other cruiser should be able to do that, and this is the exact problem. I don't care about needing to gimp my setup, especially since i can also fly the thorax, i care about the fact that the thorax doesn't have to. By the way, if i was only interested in flying a ship with a "i win" setup, i would be defending it against facts and odds as you are doing. Thus, keep the confusion in your mind if you want but get it out of this thread. See above, it is hilarious that your main argument against mine is exactly mine. You are defending something and its opposite, I'm voiceless. Ok, let me explains this to you with easy words and easy sentences. What the thorax has is too much versatility, granted especially by the drone bay. It has an extreme damage output thanks to it. The problem with cruisers is that they are not survivable enough: not enough speed, agility, hitpoints, too big signature, inability to tank outside of a plated setup. Increasing their damage output to make them on par with the thorax isn't going to make them more survivable: they are even going to die faster as the overall damage output will be higher. How can you defend such insanity for gods sake! Heavy drones are battleship weapons, medium pulse are frigate weapons. Using terminology to prove your points, in a discussion about balance, doesn't make you look wise. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 08:48:00 -
[306] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 08:48:40
I refuted this point countless time, don't fit small blasters on a plated thorax, fit long range frig guns and you increase you versatility much more than you lose in damage output. Every plated cruisers fit long range frigate guns (or the smallest small range cruiser gun) so it's not like you have to do something other cruisers don't have to. Why give the thorax an advantage that no other cruiser has, as it doesn't have any more trade-off than any other cruiser ? Beside, why give other cruisers something that would make them completely overpowered against every other class. Plated cruisers with long range frig guns are already the bane of t1 and t2 frigates alike, you people who think that "don't nerf the rax, boost the others" is going to solve all problems are wrong, for all the reasons i already mentionned. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 08:48:00 -
[307] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 08:48:40
I refuted this point countless time, don't fit small blasters on a plated thorax, fit long range frig guns and you increase you versatility much more than you lose in damage output. Every plated cruisers fit long range frigate guns (or the smallest small range cruiser gun) so it's not like you have to do something other cruisers don't have to. Why give the thorax an advantage that no other cruiser has, as it doesn't have any more trade-off than any other cruiser ? Beside, why give other cruisers something that would make them completely overpowered against every other class. Plated cruisers with long range frig guns are already the bane of t1 and t2 frigates alike, you people who think that "don't nerf the rax, boost the others" is going to solve all problems are wrong, for all the reasons i already mentionned. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Okoru |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:06:00 -
[308] I agree with what Lorth says. All cruisers seem to need a boost, brining the thorax's bay down from 200 to 100 would probably even most of the odds, and like many other people have said before, 10 medium drones is nothing to laugh at either. One thing that could also used changing is the use of oversized plates. Giving a cruiser as much armor as a bs is a little bit absurd imo. Just how I'm seeing it.  --- What I say has nothing to do with my corp. |
 Okoru Gallente Death of Virtue |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:06:00 -
[309] I agree with what Lorth says. All cruisers seem to need a boost, brining the thorax's bay down from 200 to 100 would probably even most of the odds, and like many other people have said before, 10 medium drones is nothing to laugh at either. One thing that could also used changing is the use of oversized plates. Giving a cruiser as much armor as a bs is a little bit absurd imo. Just how I'm seeing it.
FTW!!! |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:08:00 -
[310] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:44 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:02
Do you people cannot realise that the "1 VS 1 ship of the same class, without warp-out" scenario is no the kind of reasoning that decide the game balance ? They are designed to dodge large weapons, they die to small weapons. You can say that "claws kill assault frigates" and "taranis kills destroyers", but those are cases of short range ships that can avoid being hit by messing the tracking of long range guns. An autocannon claw is going to die to an autocannon trasher, and an artillery claw is going to die to an artillery trasher. This is working as intended. So, did you decide that by your own, or did you get help ? Faction loot is designed to be inbalanced, that is not something i like but that is the way it is, don't get me starting a crusade against that already. As for assault frigates killin cruisers, i don't know if it is intended or not. All i can say is that none of my cruiser setup should die to a lone assault frigates: plate + frig guns do take care of that possibility. Every race but the gallente has a missile frigate, even if missiles are a caldari speciality. Why can't the amarr have a ship similar to the vexor ? By the way, i would use a vexor over an arbitrator any day, so remove the arbitrator drone bonus and drone bay, and make it a ship worth flying if that bother you. As for the typhoon being overpowered, just, lol. I can fly the thorax, and fit my bs in order not to die to a plated cruiser. Why would i care then ? Wrong, and wrong. I have already replied several time to this. All cruiser fit plates and frigates guns, only the rax "fit" that many drones. All cruisers are, not fine but ok-ish, the thorax is a problem. Telling that nobody mentionned a problem with the thorax drone bay before the missile fix/nerf only show how little knowledge you have on the matter. See above. Why. Would. That. Ever. Be. Seriously. The caracal was upgraded to the cerberus and lost drone bay and turret hardpoints. The moa was upgraded to the eagle and lost its drone bay. Do you need more examples ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:08:00 -
[311] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:44 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:02
Do you people cannot realise that the "1 VS 1 ship of the same class, without warp-out" scenario is no the kind of reasoning that decide the game balance ? They are designed to dodge large weapons, they die to small weapons. You can say that "claws kill assault frigates" and "taranis kills destroyers", but those are cases of short range ships that can avoid being hit by messing the tracking of long range guns. An autocannon claw is going to die to an autocannon trasher, and an artillery claw is going to die to an artillery trasher. This is working as intended. So, did you decide that by your own, or did you get help ? Faction loot is designed to be inbalanced, that is not something i like but that is the way it is, don't get me starting a crusade against that already. As for assault frigates killin cruisers, i don't know if it is intended or not. All i can say is that none of my cruiser setup should die to a lone assault frigates: plate + frig guns do take care of that possibility. Every race but the gallente has a missile frigate, even if missiles are a caldari speciality. Why can't the amarr have a ship similar to the vexor ? By the way, i would use a vexor over an arbitrator any day, so remove the arbitrator drone bonus and drone bay, and make it a ship worth flying if that bother you. As for the typhoon being overpowered, just, lol. I can fly the thorax, and fit my bs in order not to die to a plated cruiser. Why would i care then ? Wrong, and wrong. I have already replied several time to this. All cruiser fit plates and frigates guns, only the rax "fit" that many drones. All cruisers are, not fine but ok-ish, the thorax is a problem. Telling that nobody mentionned a problem with the thorax drone bay before the missile fix/nerf only show how little knowledge you have on the matter. See above. Why. Would. That. Ever. Be. Seriously. The caracal was upgraded to the cerberus and lost drone bay and turret hardpoints. The moa was upgraded to the eagle and lost its drone bay. Do you need more examples ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Gabriel Karade |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:14:00 -
[312] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/08/2005 09:16:10 Cookie-cutter 1600mm plate/frigate turret setup's aside, the 8 heavy drones in addition to a decent Medium blaster setup (i.e. Medium Electron II's) turn it from a good ship to a gross ship. You can top 500 Dps thanks to 8 Ogres while still maintaining respectable armour (~1/2 Battleship armour) and repair ability (Medium II repairer). Halve the drone bay and you'd still reach over 400 Dps, that's more than ample - still sufficient to break a Dual Armour repairer Apocalypse tank solo. Take a well skilled 'cookie cutter' Tech II light neutron setup, that would still do over 300 Dps (234 for Tech II neutrons, spec. at IV, 78 for 9 hammerheads) - still enough to break an Apocalypse tank solo. There is no justification for the thorax having heavy drones. Oh and cruisers do not need anymore of a boost; there is perhaps a case for knocking the tracking of Long range Battleship Turrets down a peg, but not turning cruisers into cheap mini-Battleships, if you want that use a Battlecruiser (and no, the Brutix does not 'suck' )(\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
 Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:14:00 -
[313] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/08/2005 09:43:13 Cookie-cutter 1600mm plate/frigate turret setup's aside, the 8 heavy drones in addition to a decent Medium blaster setup (i.e. Medium Electron II's) turn it from a good ship to a gross ship. You can top 500 Dps thanks to 8 Ogres while still maintaining respectable armour (~1/2 Battleship armour) and repair ability (Medium II repairer). Halve the drone bay and you'd still reach over 400 Dps (two slots devoted to damage), that's more than ample - still sufficient to break a Dual Armour repairer Apocalypse tank solo. Take a well skilled 'cookie cutter' Tech II light neutron setup, you could still do over 300 Dps with just two slots devoted to extra damage (234 for Tech II neutrons, spec. at IV, 78 for 9 hammerheads) - still enough to break an Apocalypse tank solo. There is no justification for the thorax having 8 heavy drones. Oh and cruisers do not need anymore of a boost; there is perhaps a case for knocking the tracking of Long range Battleship Turrets down a peg, but not turning cruisers into cheap mini-Battleships, if you want that use a Battlecruiser (and no, the Brutix does not 'suck' )---------- Video - 'War-Machine' |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:16:00 -
[314]
How is having one cruiser totally outclassing all the others + non plated battlecruisers any better than making all the ships similar, if at the end of the day we all end up in a similar ship ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:16:00 -
[315]
How is having one cruiser totally outclassing all the others + non plated battlecruisers any better than making all the ships similar, if at the end of the day we all end up in a similar ship ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:18:00 -
[316]
Words of wisedom Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 09:18:00 -
[317]
Words of wisedom Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Deja Thoris |
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:01:00 -
[318]
OMG, You argue the points so well, smoting bull with facts, figures and logic. I'd appoint you an honourary Amarrian if I could |
Deja Thoris Revelations Inc. Shroud Of Darkness |
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:01:00 -
[319]
OMG, You argue the points so well, smoting bull with facts, figures and logic. I'd appoint you an honourary Amarrian if I could |
Lyticus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:14:00 -
[320] Edited by: Lyticus on 24/08/2005 11:15:15 I think that a step in the right direction would be to reduce the thorax (EDIT: and ALL cruisers) to MEDIUM Drones only, that would make the Vexor viable, while solving quite a lot of the problem with the thorax having huge DPS. I also think 1600mm plates should be limited to battlecruisers and higher, and the rax should receive a powergrid/cpu bonus. I can't fit even THREE of the biggest med blasters on my thorax, pretty dumb considering its a 'gunboat' My two cents. - Lyticus Yes, he is a Kangaroo. No, you can't touch him. Resident Aussie Bloke |
 Lyticus Veto. |
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:14:00 -
[321] Edited by: Lyticus on 24/08/2005 11:15:15 I think that a step in the right direction would be to reduce the thorax (EDIT: and ALL cruisers) to MEDIUM Drones only, that would make the Vexor viable, while solving quite a lot of the problem with the thorax having huge DPS. I also think 1600mm plates should be limited to battlecruisers and higher, and the rax should receive a powergrid/cpu bonus. I can't fit even THREE of the biggest med blasters on my thorax, pretty dumb considering its a 'gunboat' My two cents. - Lyticus |
Tobiaz |
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:51:00 -
[322]
Or flying one themselves Spacerats recruiting! |
 Tobiaz Spacerats |
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:51:00 -
[323]
Or flying one themselves |
Tobiaz |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:15:00 -
[324]
Yeah you think... heavy nos on a cruiser? cruise missiles on a cruiser? Ow wait, that's on a battleship! How is that relevant when we are discussion how the rax is overpowered compared to other cruisers? Spacerats recruiting! |
Tobiaz Spacerats |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:15:00 -
[325] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 13:52:34
Yeah you think... heavy nos on a cruiser? cruise missiles on a cruiser? Ow wait, that's on a battleship! How is that relevant when we are discussion how the rax is overpowered compared to other cruisers? Also that ECM part is utter nonsence. Good luck trying to down a rax with a BB when even a Scorp will have to pay attention and better has a nos fitted against a platerax. |
Vathar |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:20:00 -
[326] Maybe reducing the drone bay to 150 instead of 200m3 would be better. It would leave pilots the opportunity to take up to 10 medium AND spare drones, or a mix of meds/heavies. In fact 150 is the dronebay Ravens and Tempests have and they are BATTLESHIPS! Gallente ARE the drone race, so let them keep their edge, but don't overdo it The thing that puzzles me is vexor vs. thorax, the drone cruiser is less powerful drone-wise than the blaster cruiser !! Apart from this, YES, nerf oversized plates and apply an overall boost on cruisers. On a sidenote, it's hard to boost a class of ships when there ARE inbalances inside said class ... ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway (\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !! |
 Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:20:00 -
[327] Maybe reducing the drone bay to 150 instead of 200m3 would be better. It would leave pilots the opportunity to take up to 10 medium AND spare drones, or a mix of meds/heavies. In fact 150 is the dronebay Ravens and Tempests have and they are BATTLESHIPS! Gallente ARE the drone race, so let them keep their edge, but don't overdo it The thing that puzzles me is vexor vs. thorax, the drone cruiser is less powerful drone-wise than the blaster cruiser !! Apart from this, YES, nerf oversized plates and apply an overall boost on cruisers. On a sidenote, it's hard to boost a class of ships when there ARE inbalances inside said class ...
|
AlleyKat |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:42:00 -
[328] The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! Regards, AK. |
 AlleyKat Gallente The Avalon Foundation |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:42:00 -
[329] The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay! Recruiting! |
Gabriel Karade |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:45:00 -
[330]Of course if you didn't snip out the entire post you would know what I was talking about.. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 12:45:00 -
[331]Of course if you didn't snip out the entire post you would know what I was talking about.. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine' |
Apoll |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:00:00 -
[332]
Signed regarding the Medium drones and the PG boost. But leave the platings and the rest as they are. Not many people have 60m spare to equip and fly BC or 200m+ fly BS. |
 Apoll Amarr Eagles Nest |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:00:00 -
[333]
Signed regarding the Medium drones and the PG boost. But leave the platings and the rest as they are. Not many people have 60m spare to equip and fly BC or 200m+ fly BS. |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:21:00 -
[334] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25
I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:21:00 -
[335] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25
I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:23:00 -
[336]
thats Bull dude |
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:23:00 -
[337]
thats Bull dude |
Teles666 |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:34:00 -
[338] Oh god not another nerf bat :( Every time I train up for something they bloody nerf it back to the stone age. Hows about this - instead of constantly nerfing things, make other things better and give people more options to play with. Give, not take. |
 Teles666 Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:34:00 -
[339] Oh god not another nerf bat :( Every time I train up for something they bloody nerf it back to the stone age. Hows about this - instead of constantly nerfing things, make other things better and give people more options to play with. Give, not take. --- Unnfered Forever!! -Teles666 |
Tobiaz |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:39:00 -
[340] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 13:43:40
Only a VERY bad rax pilot would lose his ship to this. Also, this is only one scenario, and simply putting one ship against one other is no good measure of one being actually stronger or overpowered for that matter. The rax is overpowered because it can fight and easily win way more scenarios then any other ship and that with only one setup. Put it in situations against multiple frigates, cruisers ,inties, af, HAC's, BC, jammers, long range, short range, drones, smartbombers, etc. You'll likely see it outperforms all other cruisers by far. It will even likely outperform HACs and BS in many situations where the other cruisers will not. My brother flies one and I as a Caldari would not even survive half of what he can pull off and that with only one setup. He can fight and win from multiple frigates to BC, while still being able to easily get out if necessary because of the insane tank and MWD combo. IRL having one ship that performs so well in so many situations would be nice, in a game it's unbalanced. People trying to deny it either are flying one, or have never flew in PvP against one while themselves not in something REALLY stronger like a Raven, Deimos or something else costing 10 times more. (or they are just ignorant trolls ). - 200m3 dronebay with 150-200 DPS potential - very good tank (even without plate) - additional high DPS with blasters - enough medslots for effective PvP & MWD - decent at small long range encounters (MWD bonus & drones) - can fight while nossed or jammed. And while there might be ships that might be better tanks, better at long range, or have more medslots, it's the fact this ship has the whole package what makes it so overpowered. Also on the plate issue: that causes inbalance between classes and the 'haves' and 'havenots'. NOT between the rax and the other cruisers. So let's keep that for another thread. Spacerats recruiting! |
Tobiaz Spacerats |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:39:00 -
[341] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 13:43:40
Only a VERY bad rax pilot would lose his ship to this. Also, this is only one scenario, and simply putting one ship against one other is no good measure of one being actually stronger or overpowered for that matter. The rax is overpowered because it can fight and easily win way more scenarios then any other ship and that with only one setup. Put it in situations against multiple frigates, cruisers ,inties, af, HAC's, BC, jammers, long range, short range, drones, smartbombers, etc. You'll likely see it outperforms all other cruisers by far. It will even likely outperform HACs and BS in many situations where the other cruisers will not. My brother flies one and I as a Caldari would not even survive half of what he can pull off and that with only one setup. He can fight and win from multiple frigates to BC, while still being able to easily get out if necessary because of the insane tank and MWD combo. IRL having one ship that performs so well in so many situations would be nice, in a game it's unbalanced. People trying to deny it either are flying one, or have never flew in PvP against one while themselves not in something REALLY stronger like a Raven, Deimos or something else costing 10 times more. (or they are just ignorant trolls ). - 200m3 dronebay with 150-200 DPS potential - very good tank (even without plate) - additional high DPS with blasters - enough medslots for effective PvP & MWD - decent at small long range encounters (MWD bonus & drones) - can fight while nossed or jammed. And while there might be ships that might be better tanks, better at long range, or have more medslots, it's the fact this ship has the whole package what makes it so overpowered. Also on the plate issue: that causes inbalance between classes and the 'haves' and 'havenots'. NOT between the rax and the other cruisers. So let's keep that for another thread. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:57:00 -
[342] "light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones." Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and *still* do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser. "The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement." How much damage *would* be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..? "As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage." Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:57:00 -
[343] "light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones." Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and *still* do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser. "The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement." How much damage *would* be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..? "As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage." Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them... |
Tobiaz |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:02:00 -
[344] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 14:03:27
I like it! Though an additional boost of say 50 percent of what normally is the maximum fitted plate/extender for all other classes to keep it in line with the cruisers. Maybe a bit more for the Caldari. There is the needed HP boost, right there! The added mass (and the resulting effect on agility and AB and MWD is a nice find imho). Maybe give the Brutix 200m3 drones or even 250M3 for that matter (without dronecontrol bonus), since that's a piece of crap right now. Spacerats recruiting! |
Tobiaz Spacerats |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:02:00 -
[345] Edited by: Tobiaz on 24/08/2005 14:03:27
I like it! Though an additional boost of say 50 percent of what normally is the maximum fitted plate/extender for all other classes to keep it in line with the cruisers. Maybe a bit more for the Caldari. There is the needed HP boost, right there! The added mass (and the resulting effect on agility and AB and MWD is a nice find imho). Maybe give the Brutix 200m3 drones or even 250M3 for that matter (without dronecontrol bonus), since that's a piece of crap right now. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:03:00 -
[346] "and the guns you should be looking at are the tech 2 light neutrons everyone runs on there rax, you'll find there almost identical dps to Heavy Electrons" * light electron blaster II: 18.27 dps * heavy electron blaster I with Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps (27% more) * heavy electron blaster II with Thorax bonus: 30.80 dps (68% more) hardly 'almost identical' but then certainly not worth giving up battleship-sized plate, when mounting that plate doesn't actually cost you anything in terms of the performance drawbacks... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:03:00 -
[347] "and the guns you should be looking at are the tech 2 light neutrons everyone runs on there rax, you'll find there almost identical dps to Heavy Electrons" * light electron blaster II: 18.27 dps * heavy electron blaster I with Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps (27% more) * heavy electron blaster II with Thorax bonus: 30.80 dps (68% more) hardly 'almost identical' but then certainly not worth giving up battleship-sized plate, when mounting that plate doesn't actually cost you anything in terms of the performance drawbacks... |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:20:00 -
[348]
How is it bull... I start out with frigate 4, have cruiser 1 within the next 2 hours... cruiser 3 within 2 days or so? I can't remember but I gave 3 for good measure. Small guns aren't as skill dependant and mechanic and repair systems don't have to be up there. The PG of the thorax without enginnering over lvl 2 will allow you for the plate setup + small guns and drones ins't that hard to get to lvl 3 which isn't that far from the MAX of most cruisers bay cap. By far this is severly overbalanced in much the same way kessie + cruise were back in the day for alts. The only thing is in the same time to get cruise missiles then... you coudl get drones to +8 heavies. IE... an alt is able to replicate an age old EVE flaw of imbalance with time investment. But a Thorax is by far an effective cruiser at 1 weeks skill as a two month old Caracal, MOA, or rupture. The ONLY other ship that can claim such low SP sink to get effective is a maller.... and it doesn't grow exponentially with skills as a Thorax because of the Drone bay. Care to tell me what is bull about that? jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:20:00 -
[349]
How is it bull... I start out with frigate 4, have cruiser 1 within the next 2 hours... cruiser 3 within 2 days or so? I can't remember but I gave 3 for good measure. Small guns aren't as skill dependant and mechanic and repair systems don't have to be up there. The PG of the thorax without enginnering over lvl 2 will allow you for the plate setup + small guns and drones ins't that hard to get to lvl 3 which isn't that far from the MAX of most cruisers bay cap. By far this is severly overbalanced in much the same way kessie + cruise were back in the day for alts. The only thing is in the same time to get cruise missiles then... you coudl get drones to +8 heavies. IE... an alt is able to replicate an age old EVE flaw of imbalance with time investment. But a Thorax is by far an effective cruiser at 1 weeks skill as a two month old Caracal, MOA, or rupture. The ONLY other ship that can claim such low SP sink to get effective is a maller.... and it doesn't grow exponentially with skills as a Thorax because of the Drone bay. Care to tell me what is bull about that? Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:24:00 -
[350]
If you are an older player... don't train up things that are overpowered for the stakes in exploiting a game flaw? m'kay. If your a noob then you have no grounds to talk. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:24:00 -
[351]
If you are an older player... don't train up things that are overpowered for the stakes in exploiting a game flaw? m'kay. If your a noob then you have no grounds to talk. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Boragunda |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:31:00 -
[352]
It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. You Exodus nubs stop crying. |
 Boragunda |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:31:00 -
[353]
It's an elite cruiser... why remove what makes it special? those of you who played before the HAC and AF came out might agree. You Exodus nubs stop crying. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:53:00 -
[354]
Awesome, every race has got one HAC worth flying, but gallente get 3 for the same skill .Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:53:00 -
[355]
Awesome, every race has got one HAC worth flying, but gallente get 3 for the same skill .Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:56:00 -
[356]
exodus noob? |
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:56:00 -
[357]
exodus noob? |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 15:22:00 -
[358]
Which is why people cry nerf when its just mere balancing. They want their cake and eat it too while they train for a Deimos or Ishtar. Except when they get there... they will find out they have been using the best of the three for months. Best in that its cheap, as powerful, and benefits from anything you train for the others equally. The only ship above a Thorax that can hold a cost/benefit/performance noodle in the Gallente line is a Dominix. Not even a mega is a worthwile investment for PvP over a rax unless you want it JUST for killing a thoraxes. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 15:22:00 -
[359]
Which is why people cry nerf when its just mere balancing. They want their cake and eat it too while they train for a Deimos or Ishtar. Except when they get there... they will find out they have been using the best of the three for months. Best in that its cheap, as powerful, and benefits from anything you train for the others equally. The only ship above a Thorax that can hold a cost/benefit/performance noodle in the Gallente line is a Dominix. Not even a mega is a worthwile investment for PvP over a rax unless you want it JUST for killing a thoraxes. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Vathar |
Posted - 2005.08.24 15:44:00 -
[360]
While I do believe that it's overpowered, I have to say that it CAN be beaten by a platerupture if you manage to kill its drones quickly (and go for berserkers/wasps first), but it requires some luck and a mistake will get you very dead ... ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway (\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !! |
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 15:44:00 -
[361]
While I do believe that it's overpowered, I have to say that it CAN be beaten by a platerupture if you manage to kill its drones quickly (and go for berserkers/wasps first), but it requires some luck and a mistake will get you very dead ...
|
Spaced Skunk |
Posted - 2005.08.24 16:04:00 -
[362] ..do you people realise that you need uber drone skills to use its drone bay anyway? Besides..I think the thorax is a very good alround ship, thats what you all complain at...you people want it to be specialised, like the moa (long range) etc. YARRR!!! |
 Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp |
Posted - 2005.08.24 16:04:00 -
[363] ..do you people realise that you need uber drone skills to use its drone bay anyway? Besides..I think the thorax is a very good alround ship, thats what you all complain at...you people want it to be specialised, like the moa (long range) etc. |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 16:46:00 -
[364]
A low SP Plate Thorax is on par with a Decent to Large SP *insert your cruiser here* With Drone skills maxed ( for a thorax's use ) it becomes VERY much like the old Kestrel w. Cruise Missiles of 2003. Get an alt... train it 2 weeks and go have some no risk fun. Very much like the torp raven w. 1.5mil SP chars during the Great Missile Wxorage of 2005. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 16:46:00 -
[365]
A low SP Plate Thorax is on par with a Decent to Large SP *insert your cruiser here* With Drone skills maxed ( for a thorax's use ) it becomes VERY much like the old Kestrel w. Cruise Missiles of 2003. Get an alt... train it 2 weeks and go have some no risk fun. Very much like the torp raven w. 1.5mil SP chars during the Great Missile Wxorage of 2005. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Vathar |
Posted - 2005.08.24 17:31:00 -
[366]
Hmm, lemme think about this a bit ... drones lvl.5 takes some time I admit : I'd say between 5 and 10 days accroding to your attributes Apart from this, scout drone lvl.3, drone interfacing lvl.3 and heavy drones lvl.3 is probably everything u need to be DECENT with thorax's drone bay So it is between 6 and 12 days at the most, hardly what I would call UBER skills (granted, now we have T2 drones, but the're still uncommon so i didn't take them into account) ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway (\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !! |
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 17:31:00 -
[367]
Hmm, lemme think about this a bit ... drones lvl.5 takes some time I admit : I'd say between 5 and 10 days accroding to your attributes Apart from this, scout drone lvl.3, drone interfacing lvl.3 and heavy drones lvl.3 is probably everything u need to be DECENT with thorax's drone bay So it is between 6 and 12 days at the most, hardly what I would call UBER skills (granted, now we have T2 drones, but the're still uncommon so i didn't take them into account)
|
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:30:00 -
[368] Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 18:30:55 Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 18:30:28
That was my intention. I'm not for a thorax nerf however.
The grid increase would have to be worth enough to make blasters + plate + drones < medium blasters. At the moment it just isn't happening yet I don't think the plate is to blame (all cruisers can fit it so it's not unique) and neither is the size of the drone bay. IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ? Meanwhile... the drones are capable of doing dps equal to a HAC (Cerberus) which to me seems to be the problem. The drones are doing too much damage yet I'm for a reduction in the damage of drones not a reduction in the number of drones.
My point exactly. I'm Caldari so it's in my best interests not to be 40% weaker than the other races. Boost heavy missiles ... ? EDIT: Broken tags. |
Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:30:00 -
[369] Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 18:30:55 Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 18:30:28
That was my intention. I'm not for a thorax nerf however.
The grid increase would have to be worth enough to make blasters + plate + drones < medium blasters. At the moment it just isn't happening yet I don't think the plate is to blame (all cruisers can fit it so it's not unique) and neither is the size of the drone bay. IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ? Meanwhile... the drones are capable of doing dps equal to a HAC (Cerberus) which to me seems to be the problem. The drones are doing too much damage yet I'm for a reduction in the damage of drones not a reduction in the number of drones.
My point exactly. I'm Caldari so it's in my best interests not to be 40% weaker than the other races. Boost heavy missiles ... ? EDIT: Broken tags. |
Imran |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:37:00 -
[370]
Thanks for your life story |
Imran Fate. |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:37:00 -
[371]
Thanks for your life story EwokPoacher: Why hate Gallente? Blackest Sheep: Because we are beautiful Ch33z0rs: Pirating is such a harsh term. I prefer unil |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:48:00 -
[372]
I am not playing dumb, but i do not understand why. Reduction of damage, but no reduction of number, would be just downgrading the size of drones: 10 mediums instead of 8 heavies ? This is exactly, more drones, but less damage. Mediums are faster, track better, are more difficult to destroy with big guns/missiles. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:48:00 -
[373]
I am not playing dumb, but i do not understand why. Reduction of damage, but no reduction of number, would be just downgrading the size of drones: 10 mediums instead of 8 heavies ? This is exactly, more drones, but less damage. Mediums are faster, track better, are more difficult to destroy with big guns/missiles. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:51:00 -
[374] "IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ?" ... "very average dps" compared to what other medium weapon? o.O; come on, this is really playing down things bit too much... the 'smallest' medium blasters outdamage the longer range weapons by some 40-60% ... and do 2-2.5x the damage of medium missiles. About the only thing that comes close to them in performance is the autocannons. Which is overall okay, means the blastership can be taken quite a bit in the armour on the approach and still stands the fair chance of winning if it gets the other guy within fire range by then... that's with guns alone. Drones added on top of it make it so one sided it's not even funny. o.O; (if there's one thing that's pretty odd in overall picture, it's the fitting requirements of autocannons across the board... pretty light in comparison to blasters, use way less cap if at all, can mix damage types and the performance is pretty close to what the blasters can do. I suppose one could argue blasters should get tiny grid reduction while autocannons might use very tiny increase of the grid they need. I said 'tiny', mind you -.o |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:51:00 -
[375] "IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ?" ... "very average dps" compared to what other medium weapon? o.O; come on, this is really playing down things bit too much... the 'smallest' medium blasters outdamage the longer range weapons by some 40-60% ... and do 2-2.5x the damage of medium missiles. About the only thing that comes close to them in performance is the autocannons. Which is overall okay, means the blastership can be taken quite a bit in the armour on the approach and still stands the fair chance of winning if it gets the other guy within fire range by then... that's with guns alone. Drones added on top of it make it so one sided it's not even funny. o.O; (if there's one thing that's pretty odd in overall picture, it's the fitting requirements of autocannons across the board... pretty light in comparison to blasters, use way less cap if at all, can mix damage types and the performance is pretty close to what the blasters can do. I suppose one could argue blasters should get tiny grid reduction while autocannons might use very tiny increase of the grid they need. I said 'tiny', mind you -.o |
656587 |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:57:00 -
[376] The thorax is an example of why EvE is not as popular as WoW. No ship smaller than a battleship should have a chance of killing one. Unless they form a large gang of small ships might they have a chance. That is like saying a level 1 barbarian with a dirk can kill a level 2 barbarian with a heavy sword. Makes no sense. A battle ships is expensive (60-110million isk). There are too many kinds of guns and cruisers/frigs etc.. Why cant EvE just have 1 of each ship and this will end all this confusion. 1 frig, 1 cruiser, 1 battle ship. And 1 size of gun for each. End of story. There are to many variables in eve to make it an enjoyable game compared to WoW and it is obvious who has the most customers. |
 656587 |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:57:00 -
[377] The thorax is an example of why EvE is not as popular as WoW. No ship smaller than a battleship should have a chance of killing one. Unless they form a large gang of small ships might they have a chance. That is like saying a level 1 barbarian with a dirk can kill a level 2 barbarian with a heavy sword. Makes no sense. A battle ships is expensive (60-110million isk). There are too many kinds of guns and cruisers/frigs etc.. Why cant EvE just have 1 of each ship and this will end all this confusion. 1 frig, 1 cruiser, 1 battle ship. And 1 size of gun for each. End of story. There are to many variables in eve to make it an enjoyable game compared to WoW and it is obvious who has the most customers. |
siim |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:03:00 -
[378]
Have you even _played_ the game? |
 siim Destructive Influence |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:03:00 -
[379]
Have you even _played_ the game? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:18:00 -
[380] Regarding the med guns vs frig guns.
|
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:18:00 -
[381] Regarding the med guns vs frig guns.
|
Raptornas |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:20:00 -
[382]
Thats completly missing the point, WoW is predictable if a player is a higher level then you he will beat you in PvP and that only happens on the PvP servers. In eve a character with far lower skill points and a worse ship can beat a "higher level character" with a smaller ship such as a cruiser. It requires skill and ingenuity though which is what makes this game great to me. ------------------------------------------- PITC - Combat Officer Forums: www.sugarplc.co.uk/phoenixforum |
 Raptornas 0utbreak |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:20:00 -
[383]
Thats completly missing the point, WoW is predictable if a player is a higher level then you he will beat you in PvP and that only happens on the PvP servers. In eve a character with far lower skill points and a worse ship can beat a "higher level character" with a smaller ship such as a cruiser. It requires skill and ingenuity though which is what makes this game great to me. |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:30:00 -
[384]
What about reducing the damage dealt by drones? With weapons of destruction like blasters how would it even be possible for drones to out-do them? Drones seem to me to be too powerful comparatively with the thorax being a great example of it.
My point was that blasters are designed to wreck havoc, have huge grid requirements suitable for their damage, yet no cruisers can fit them properly because of low grid. Compare this to an Omen for example which has almost the same grid output yet has one less turret to use. With one extra turret perhaps the thorax (with the deimos following suit) should get an extra 200 grid? That would certainly make blasters a lot more enticing.
Can't say I've put much thought into autocannons, but I like the idea of a grid reduction for blasters. |
Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:30:00 -
[385]
What about reducing the damage dealt by drones? With weapons of destruction like blasters how would it even be possible for drones to out-do them? Drones seem to me to be too powerful comparatively with the thorax being a great example of it.
My point was that blasters are designed to wreck havoc, have huge grid requirements suitable for their damage, yet no cruisers can fit them properly because of low grid. Compare this to an Omen for example which has almost the same grid output yet has one less turret to use. With one extra turret perhaps the thorax (with the deimos following suit) should get an extra 200 grid? That would certainly make blasters a lot more enticing.
Can't say I've put much thought into autocannons, but I like the idea of a grid reduction for blasters. |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:06:00 -
[386]
you're welcome m'kay?   jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:06:00 -
[387]
you're welcome m'kay? Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Dash Ripcock |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:09:00 -
[388] I think one of the main issues is the Thorax fitting a 1600mm plate, having lots of gun damage from Light Neutron IIs and having an enormous amount of damage coming out of its drone bay. Oh, and a MWD bonus. Ermmm. Something has to give eventually; there is a reason the Gallente 'Phallus Of Shiny Doom' is found in nearly every space lane. What is even more confusing is the Vector, apparently a monstrous drone ship carrying less than her blaster-boat cousin. The massive drone bay on the Thorax is an archaic leftover from the old days of EVE, and a remedy must be at hand. I personally believe at least one of the following has to be pursued:
My two isk... |
 Dash Ripcock Caldari 0utbreak |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:09:00 -
[389] I think one of the main issues is the Thorax fitting a 1600mm plate, having lots of gun damage from Light Neutron IIs and having an enormous amount of damage coming out of its drone bay. Oh, and a MWD bonus. Ermmm. Something has to give eventually; there is a reason the Gallente 'Phallus Of Shiny Doom' is found in nearly every space lane. What is even more confusing is the Vector, apparently a monstrous drone ship carrying less than her blaster-boat cousin. The massive drone bay on the Thorax is an archaic leftover from the old days of EVE, and a remedy must be at hand. I personally believe at least one of the following has to be pursued:
My two isk... |
AlleyKat |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:17:00 -
[390]
Disagree, I took this from the Thorax set-up link from one of the GM's. (thanks, Dash Ripcock)
Are you telling me that this kind of setup doesn't take months and months to obtain? And now you want to nerf it all to hell? If you think the Thorax is that good and that powerful, I have a suggestion for you, just train it up, oh, I forgot, you are training up your alt for a Thorax anyway.  |
AlleyKat Gallente The Avalon Foundation |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:17:00 -
[391]
Disagree, I took this from the Thorax set-up link from one of the GM's. (thanks, Dash Ripcock)
Are you telling me that this kind of setup doesn't take months and months to obtain? And now you want to nerf it all to hell? If you think the Thorax is that good and that powerful, I have a suggestion for you, just train it up, oh, I forgot, you are training up your alt for a Thorax anyway. |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:27:00 -
[392]
WoW is a on the other spectrum of gaming. Its for ye ol' luvers that whipe with parchment paper. Who cares if its more popular... Its still a boring game to many. Look on the bright side... EVE doesn't have the bugs of Galaxies nor the handbound development staff of City of Heroes. Both those games loose customers every week what eve looses in a year. The game isn't going anywhere because of a overpowered ship. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:27:00 -
[393]
WoW is a on the other spectrum of gaming. Its for ye ol' luvers that whipe with parchment paper. Who cares if its more popular... Its still a boring game to many. Look on the bright side... EVE doesn't have the bugs of Galaxies nor the handbound development staff of City of Heroes. Both those games loose customers every week what eve looses in a year. The game isn't going anywhere because of a overpowered ship. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:36:00 -
[394]
Actually I build alts for other races because I collect characters. I can fly a thorax with this character better than most people can fly their own races ships. I've used thoraxes since September 2003 and I refuse to use them in their state. I don't use a thorax on my alt but I CAN. Btw the setup you posted is a specialized setup which the thorax DOESN'T NEED to be effective. LOL don't try to tell me what I do with my chars. I have one of every race and they can all fly Cruisers AND/OR BSs from their race tree. As soon as the Khanid Characters come out I will be dumping a matari place holder for that. Does that mean I am going to train it up to fly a thorax? Hell no because I can fly thorax on my Gallente Char AND this main ( which I need to fly a deimos AND Machariel FYI ) Try to catch some other person being slinky... I don't grief, won't grief, nor exploit game mechanics to get cheep thrills. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:36:00 -
[395]
Actually I build alts for other races because I collect characters. I can fly a thorax with this character better than most people can fly their own races ships. I've used thoraxes since September 2003 and I refuse to use them in their state. I don't use a thorax on my alt but I CAN. Btw the setup you posted is a specialized setup which the thorax DOESN'T NEED to be effective. LOL don't try to tell me what I do with my chars. I have one of every race and they can all fly Cruisers AND/OR BSs from their race tree. As soon as the Khanid Characters come out I will be dumping a matari place holder for that. Does that mean I am going to train it up to fly a thorax? Hell no because I can fly thorax on my Gallente Char AND this main ( which I need to fly a deimos AND Machariel FYI ) Try to catch some other person being slinky... I don't grief, won't grief, nor exploit game mechanics to get cheep thrills. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Bottled Brain |
Posted - 2005.08.24 21:48:00 -
[396] Edited by: Bottled Brain on 24/08/2005 21:49:12
Cruiser 2nd bonuses in testing A year goes by really fast.^^ |
 Bottled Brain |
Posted - 2005.08.24 21:48:00 -
[397] Edited by: Bottled Brain on 24/08/2005 21:49:12
Cruiser 2nd bonuses in testing A year goes by really fast.^^ |
Voltron |
Posted - 2005.08.25 02:22:00 -
[398] I've got gallente cruiser 5, and at the moment I will not fly a thorax b/c I feel its an "I win" button. I've been flying stabbers/ruptures/augorors etc, ships that can actually be a challenge to fly and fit. As soon as the drone bay isnt so ridiculous on the rax I'll start flyin her again......I'll also start fightin them again cause maybe then everyone and their dog won't be using the cookie cutter plate-rax. Volt |
Voltron Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.25 02:22:00 -
[399] I've got gallente cruiser 5, and at the moment I will not fly a thorax b/c I feel its an "I win" button. I've been flying stabbers/ruptures/augorors etc, ships that can actually be a challenge to fly and fit. As soon as the drone bay isnt so ridiculous on the rax I'll start flyin her again......I'll also start fightin them again cause maybe then everyone and their dog won't be using the cookie cutter plate-rax. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it? |
Aleis |
Posted - 2005.08.25 03:02:00 -
[400] I can't fly one but looking at them simply on principle they need to be changed.. I'm not saying Straight up nerf them if they don't need it but a cruiser that has a drone bay thats larger than most Battleships dronebays isn't right. Specificly when it Isn't The drone carrier cruiser! If they are "ballenced" as they are then sure give them a little more grid/cpu maybe a slot to offset the change but they definatly do need to have a smaller drone bay. |
 Aleis Minmatar |
Posted - 2005.08.25 03:02:00 -
[401] I can't fly one but looking at them simply on principle they need to be changed.. I'm not saying Straight up nerf them if they don't need it but a cruiser that has a drone bay thats larger than most Battleships dronebays isn't right. Specificly when it Isn't The drone carrier cruiser! If they are "ballenced" as they are then sure give them a little more grid/cpu maybe a slot to offset the change but they definatly do need to have a smaller drone bay. |
doyouneedcash |
Posted - 2005.08.25 03:13:00 -
[402] can you dig it? let us be honest here folks, the rax has to big of a drone bay, lets reduce the drone bay to a degree that is inline with other crusers, and then see where it stands. reduction to say, 75 or 100m3 for drone bay, and leave grid/cap as is? lets just try it. |
 doyouneedcash |
Posted - 2005.08.25 03:13:00 -
[403] can you dig it? let us be honest here folks, the rax has to big of a drone bay, lets reduce the drone bay to a degree that is inline with other crusers, and then see where it stands. reduction to say, 75 or 100m3 for drone bay, and leave grid/cap as is? lets just try it. |
DrunkenOne |
Posted - 2005.08.25 03:45:00 -
[404] badboy 4tw. http://h4xx.eve-killboard.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1495 |
DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.25 03:45:00 -
[405] badboy 4tw. http://h4xx.eve-killboard.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1495 Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Narial Thrikill |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:00:00 -
[406] Edited by: Narial Thrikill on 25/08/2005 04:00:37
wouldnt you be able to do this with any cruiser? say a rupture? the rupture has the same number of low and medium slots, but 1 more high slot. you could use 4 light autocannons (that use 0 cap) while you wait for drones? and it's a long wait for drone skills, no joke. |
 Narial Thrikill |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:00:00 -
[407] Edited by: Narial Thrikill on 25/08/2005 04:00:37
wouldnt you be able to do this with any cruiser? say a rupture? the rupture has the same number of low and medium slots, but 1 more high slot. you could use 4 light autocannons (that use 0 cap) while you wait for drones? and it's a long wait for drone skills, no joke. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:02:00 -
[408]
Somebody hasn't been reading the whole thread. I'll quote it straight from the game.
for comparison:
If the argument of "don't believe everything you read" flies, then just ignore this and make up whatever reality suits your argument...but the argument of "The thorax isn't the premier drone cruiser in the game" simply doesn't jive with the in-game fiction and a longer-than-2-year-precident. The Vexor has always been a one-step-down-but-decent-cruiser, the Thorax has always been the top-of-the-line-get-close-and-pwn-with-drones cruiser. I've said it several times, and nobody seems to be able to wrap their minds around the concept: Thorax needs superior damage over time, because it has less time to do that damage in. A non-plated thorax will be down to half armor, maybe less by the time its drones and blasters reach their effective range. Meanwhile, the target is unscathed. Take away the thoraxes firepower, and it loses every time. As for killing battleships...this is a unique function of the thorax's close-range dominance, not 8 heavy drones. A cruiser orbiting 1km from an average battleship can't be hit. Kit it to gank, and it's going to have a good chance of rocking a battleship. Take the plate from the thorax, and you have a properly balanced ship. It will have a high probability of victory if combat starts inside 20km, it will likely lose if combat starts outside 20km. Take the drones from the thorax, and some other plated cruiser will take its turn in the "overpowered" limelight. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:02:00 -
[409]
Somebody hasn't been reading the whole thread. I'll quote it straight from the game.
for comparison:
If the argument of "don't believe everything you read" flies, then just ignore this and make up whatever reality suits your argument...but the argument of "The thorax isn't the premier drone cruiser in the game" simply doesn't jive with the in-game fiction and a longer-than-2-year-precident. The Vexor has always been a one-step-down-but-decent-cruiser, the Thorax has always been the top-of-the-line-get-close-and-pwn-with-drones cruiser. I've said it several times, and nobody seems to be able to wrap their minds around the concept: Thorax needs superior damage over time, because it has less time to do that damage in. A non-plated thorax will be down to half armor, maybe less by the time its drones and blasters reach their effective range. Meanwhile, the target is unscathed. Take away the thoraxes firepower, and it loses every time. As for killing battleships...this is a unique function of the thorax's close-range dominance, not 8 heavy drones. A cruiser orbiting 1km from an average battleship can't be hit. Kit it to gank, and it's going to have a good chance of rocking a battleship. Take the plate from the thorax, and you have a properly balanced ship. It will have a high probability of victory if combat starts inside 20km, it will likely lose if combat starts outside 20km. Take the drones from the thorax, and some other plated cruiser will take its turn in the "overpowered" limelight. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:09:00 -
[410] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:11:48
Yes. And look at the battleship kits on the solo battleship kills. A mining 'thron. An mwd scorpion with mid-slots wasted on too many non-ecm items. A typhoon with cruiser class weapons. And a thorax loss an average of every 4 days. I believe I had mentioned "high risk, high return" somewhere. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:09:00 -
[411] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:11:48
Yes. And look at the battleship kits on the solo battleship kills. A mining 'thron. An mwd scorpion with mid-slots wasted on too many non-ecm items. A typhoon with cruiser class weapons. And a thorax loss an average of every 4 days. I believe I had mentioned "high risk, high return" somewhere. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:34:00 -
[412]
You know, I think all frigates are overpowered, some newbie in a frigate killed me in my mining ship. I paid like 5 mil for that mining osprey, I should be able to press a little button that says blow ship that costs less then me up... Oh wait, it's a mining ship... If both pilots are decently skilled, the bigger more expensive ship wins. If the cruiser pilot has a big advantage in skills(both SP and tactics) he may be able to beat a larger battleship(shield tanked apoc). |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:34:00 -
[413] Edited by: Fidelis Deus on 25/08/2005 04:37:15
You know, I think all frigates are overpowered, some newbie in a frigate killed me in my mining ship. I paid like 5 mil for that mining osprey, I should be able to press a little button that says blow ship that costs less then me up... Oh wait, it's a mining ship... If both pilots are decently skilled, the bigger more expensive ship wins. If the cruiser pilot has a big advantage in skills(both SP and tactics) he may be able to beat a larger battleship(shield tanked apoc). Unlike WoW or D2, the larger ship should not win simply because he is the larger ship. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:37:00 -
[414] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:37:31 Garreck... thats the most ridiculous point ever. I could hop into a Thorax, and fly into HED and attack battleships until I'm lucky enough to catch one with a crappy setup and kill it. I could then repeat this numerous times, losing several Thorax in the process. This doesn't mean the Thorax is on par with other cruisers. It means I'm using a Thorax over and over to attack larger ships. Just because you see a bunch of Thorax losses on a killboard doesn't mean it sucks, it means that because its overpowered and thus so popular, its being overused. Killboards have no place in this arguement. Also, god, if you'd read any of my bazillion other threads, you'd know that a Thorax, approaching with a MWD and a 1600mm plate, can take thousands of points of damage on the approach, but once it's in under the enemy's guns and letting loose with its 253 DPS, it doesn't matter much. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:37:00 -
[415] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:37:31 Garreck... thats the most ridiculous point ever. I could hop into a Thorax, and fly into HED and attack battleships until I'm lucky enough to catch one with a crappy setup and kill it. I could then repeat this numerous times, losing several Thorax in the process. This doesn't mean the Thorax is on par with other cruisers. It means I'm using a Thorax over and over to attack larger ships. Just because you see a bunch of Thorax losses on a killboard doesn't mean it sucks, it means that because its overpowered and thus so popular, its being overused. Killboards have no place in this arguement. Also, god, if you'd read any of my bazillion other threads, you'd know that a Thorax, approaching with a MWD and a 1600mm plate, can take thousands of points of damage on the approach, but once it's in under the enemy's guns and letting loose with its 253 DPS, it doesn't matter much. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:41:00 -
[416]
Which is why the plate issue for all ships needs to be addressed, not the drones issue for the thorax. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:41:00 -
[417]
Which is why the plate issue for all ships needs to be addressed, not the drones issue for the thorax. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:42:00 -
[418] Edited by: Fidelis Deus on 25/08/2005 04:44:59 Agreed completely, the Thorax is fine. Plates are the problem here. By the time the Thorax manages to close to optimal range with its blasters and drones, it needs the heavy damage output to destroy whatever it's attacking. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:42:00 -
[419] Edited by: Fidelis Deus on 25/08/2005 04:44:59 Agreed completely, the Thorax is fine. Plates are the problem here. By the time the Thorax manages to close to optimal range with its blasters and drones, it needs the heavy damage output to destroy whatever it's attacking. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:48:00 -
[420] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:50:51 The Thorax was a problem before plates were ever an issue. The buff to them just exacerbated it. The PROBLEM is that the Thorax wins 170 fittings-free DPS. It has more drone bay than its carrier variant (Vexor), more or less making it worthless (8 heavy drones > 15 medium DPS wise, not to mention it takes some skill to get 15 mediums). What the Thorax needs. Its drone bay swapped with the Brutix... this makes the Brutix more of a drone BC (and means that its fittings problems aren't so bad as it can get more firepower and still be tankable). The Thorax then needs a small speed or agility increase and it's balanced. The Maller has a bit of Plate Syndrome itself but if the fittings get fixed it'll be on par with the new Thorax and other cruisers. NOTE: It will still be able to do around 170 DPS with Light Neutrons fitted. Thats about twice what most other cruisers do in DPS, not something you should be complaining about. AND PEOPLE STOP SAYING "Don't nerf the 'Rax, buff all other cruisers" BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN. Thats a major game mechanic overhaul. If you know anything about game design you'll know its NOT feasible, when a few tweaks can be made to bring everything in line. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:48:00 -
[421] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:50:51 The Thorax was a problem before plates were ever an issue. The buff to them just exacerbated it. The PROBLEM is that the Thorax wins 170 fittings-free DPS. It has more drone bay than its carrier variant (Vexor), more or less making it worthless (8 heavy drones > 15 medium DPS wise, not to mention it takes some skill to get 15 mediums). What the Thorax needs. Its drone bay swapped with the Brutix... this makes the Brutix more of a drone BC (and means that its fittings problems aren't so bad as it can get more firepower and still be tankable). The Thorax then needs a small speed or agility increase and it's balanced. The Maller has a bit of Plate Syndrome itself but if the fittings get fixed it'll be on par with the new Thorax and other cruisers. NOTE: It will still be able to do around 170 DPS with Light Neutrons fitted. Thats about twice what most other cruisers do in DPS, not something you should be complaining about. AND PEOPLE STOP SAYING "Don't nerf the 'Rax, buff all other cruisers" BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN. Thats a major game mechanic overhaul. If you know anything about game design you'll know its NOT feasible, when a few tweaks can be made to bring everything in line. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:49:00 -
[422] tbh, Rax can kill any BS(exept raven) and prorepy tanked APOC, unless the BS have fitting specialy vs smaller targets or its blasterthron or AC tempest |
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:49:00 -
[423] tbh, Rax can kill any BS(exept raven) and prorepy tanked APOC, unless the BS have fitting specialy vs smaller targets or its blasterthron or AC tempest |
Ymra |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:51:00 -
[424] Edited by: Ymra on 25/08/2005 04:51:19
try loot under "all kills" and its not even all as half of the BS kills got NPC.... but it not the point, the point is that RAx is way, way 2 good |
 Ymra |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:51:00 -
[425] Edited by: Ymra on 25/08/2005 04:51:19
try loot under "all kills" and its not even all as half of the BS kills got NPC.... but it not the point, the point is that RAx is way, way 2 good |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:52:00 -
[426] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:52:48
No, it wasn't. I used to get made fun of for flying the thorax in combat. The thorax was a pvp joke...not because it wasn't good, of course, but because people didn't have the stones to ride out the damage and get in effective range. 1600 plate allowed them to do that with far less risk, so suddenly the thorax leaps forward as a great pvp ship. The damage potential was always there...but there was always huge risk involved with bringing that firepower to bear. 1600mm plate means you can more or less nullify that risk against other cruisers.
*bangs head on desk, screaming* Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:52:00 -
[427] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:52:48
No, it wasn't. I used to get made fun of for flying the thorax in combat. The thorax was a pvp joke...not because it wasn't good, of course, but because people didn't have the stones to ride out the damage and get in effective range. 1600 plate allowed them to do that with far less risk, so suddenly the thorax leaps forward as a great pvp ship. The damage potential was always there...but there was always huge risk involved with bringing that firepower to bear. 1600mm plate means you can more or less nullify that risk against other cruisers.
*bangs head on desk, screaming* |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:55:00 -
[428]
You're so full of it! -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:55:00 -
[429]
You're so full of it! Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:00:00 -
[430]
/me pets Garreck No matter how many times you point out things, their not going to listen.. electro is still crying about the missle changes and wants everyone else to suffer also he has freely admitted he hasn't done any pvp of TQ. And when you presnt him with any form of argument, he ignores it or picks out tiny bits to try and argue against. And W0lverine is just jumping on any bandwagon he can find. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:00:00 -
[431]
/me pets Garreck No matter how many times you point out things, their not going to listen.. electro is still crying about the missle changes and wants everyone else to suffer also he has freely admitted he hasn't done any pvp of TQ. And when you presnt him with any form of argument, he ignores it or picks out tiny bits to try and argue against. And W0lverine is just jumping on any bandwagon he can find. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:04:00 -
[432] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:05:57
Ah yes. That solo kill mail for Zarquon Beeblebrox in my mailbox must be an apparition. All the other random group kill mails in my mailbox must be imaginary as well. And all the frigate fleets where I've been flying Covert Ops, must have been my imagination. Yeah, I know nothing of PVP. How about this. Come out to Impass and I'll happily fight you. And, you sir, are an idiot. Go read that thread where it was a vote on whether missile changes shafted the Caldari or not. I said NO. But the missile boats (such as the Cerberus, which puts out less DPS with Scourge than your Rax's DRONE BAY) do. Come back when you know what you're talking about instead of trolling. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:04:00 -
[433] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:10:06
Ah yes. That solo kill mail for Zarquon Beeblebrox in my mailbox must be an apparition. (And the 101 mill bounty me and some of my buddies got when we podded her, yep, that must not be real either.) All the other random group kill mails in my mailbox must be imaginary as well. And all the frigate fleets where I've been flying Covert Ops, must have been my imagination. Yeah, I know nothing of PVP. How about this. Come out to Impass and I'll happily fight you. And, you sir, are an idiot. Go read that thread where it was a vote on whether missile changes shafted the Caldari or not. I said NO. But the missile boats (such as the Cerberus, which puts out less DPS with Scourge than your Rax's DRONE BAY) do. Come back when you know what you're talking about instead of trolling. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
W0lverine |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:08:00 -
[434]
I'm pretty sure that I fly rax more then you do, so I know what I'm talking about |
W0lverine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:08:00 -
[435]
I'm pretty sure that I fly rax more then you do, so I know what I'm talking about |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:11:00 -
[436] I love it when people run out of reasoning and have nothing less to do but flame. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:11:00 -
[437] I love it when people run out of reasoning and have nothing less to do but flame. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Narial Thrikill |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:14:00 -
[438] cant you do close to the same thing (barring the drones that is) with a rupture. you can fit a 1600mm plate and use light autocannons. and since your weapons use 0 cap that leaves all your cap to your armor rep. or fit an 800mm plate and you can use dual 180mm autocannons and take advantage of the rof and dmg bonus of the rupture? AND still fit 2 assault launchers. |
Narial Thrikill |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:14:00 -
[439] cant you do close to the same thing (barring the drones that is) with a rupture. you can fit a 1600mm plate and use light autocannons. and since your weapons use 0 cap that leaves all your cap to your armor rep. or fit an 800mm plate and you can use dual 180mm autocannons and take advantage of the rof and dmg bonus of the rupture? AND still fit 2 assault launchers. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:16:00 -
[440]
Is that why you told me I'm full of it? I've been flying a thorax more than any other ship for the past...oh, 20 months or so. I love cruisers, I buy into the "specialize" philosphy, and the thorax is the best gallente cruiser...so here I am. I'm presenting arguments based on a whole lot of combat experience in various setups and against various setups. I'm willing to concede that a 1600mm plate thorax is too powerful. What nobody else seems to be willing to concede that if you nerf the offensive firepower of a thorax rather than fixing the plate, you're only going to set up the NEXT overpowered 1600mm plate fitted cruiser. One thing I'll NEVER concede is that a non-plated thorax overpowers all other top-tier cruisers. More "sheer firepower?" Sure. But there is so much more to the combat equation. For instance, how damn close you have to be to use that firepower, and how much damage can be done to your mwd-ing fat ass in the mean time. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:16:00 -
[441]
Is that why you told me I'm full of it? I've been flying a thorax more than any other ship for the past...oh, 20 months or so. I love cruisers, I buy into the "specialize" philosphy, and the thorax is the best gallente cruiser...so here I am. I'm presenting arguments based on a whole lot of combat experience in various setups and against various setups. I'm willing to concede that a 1600mm plate thorax is too powerful. What nobody else seems to be willing to concede that if you nerf the offensive firepower of a thorax rather than fixing the plate, you're only going to set up the NEXT overpowered 1600mm plate fitted cruiser. One thing I'll NEVER concede is that a non-plated thorax overpowers all other top-tier cruisers. More "sheer firepower?" Sure. But there is so much more to the combat equation. For instance, how damn close you have to be to use that firepower, and how much damage can be done to your mwd-ing fat ass in the mean time. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:18:00 -
[442]
Yes we have all heard the little story of yours, funny how both sides don't match up.. but thats for a different forum. And i have put some valid point across in the past, but you always ignore little bits to argue against. As for an idiot, yep... but i can still beat a plate rax with its 8 heavies in a maller. You fail to understand the problem isn't the rax, its the plate.. another example is the plate claw.. An assault frig, is supposed to be the bane of the interceptor .. yet the plate claw, can beat most AF's have a watch of DrunkenOne's Jagerbomb videos.. now watch those, and understand.. that the plate is the problem.. not the rax. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:18:00 -
[443]
Yes we have all heard the little story of yours, funny how both sides don't match up.. but thats for a different forum. And i have put some valid point across in the past, but you always ignore little bits to argue against. As for an idiot, yep... but i can still beat a plate rax with its 8 heavies in a maller. You fail to understand the problem isn't the rax, its the plate.. another example is the plate claw.. An assault frig, is supposed to be the bane of the interceptor .. yet the plate claw, can beat most AF's have a watch of DrunkenOne's Jagerbomb videos.. now watch those, and understand.. that the plate is the problem.. not the rax. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:22:00 -
[444] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:22:27
I'm simply calling a bluff. I highly doubt you got laughed at for flying a Thorax prior to the Plate buff. It SOUNDS like you're saying that the plate brought it up to par with the other cruisers... a suggestion I find totally ridiculous. Rax has always been a big fish in the cruiser pond. Remember dual MWDs? -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:22:00 -
[445] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:28:17 Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:22:27
I'm simply calling a bluff. I highly doubt you got laughed at for flying a Thorax prior to the Plate buff. It SOUNDED like you're saying that the plate brought it up to par with the other cruisers... a suggestion I find totally ridiculous. In any case, Rax has always been a big fish in the cruiser pond. Remember dual MWDs? The problem is plates AND the drone bay. Even without a plate the drones just make the Rax sorta stupid. For one thing, they remove a lot of skill involved in flying the ship. Its not like it takes a lot of skill to have 8 heavy drones doing 170 DPS, and it sure as hell doesn't impact your ship setup. Removing 100 dronebay removes about 85 DPS from a ship that easily gets 260 with 8 heavies AND Light Neuts fitted. Upwards of 290 DPS is possible without a plate and Heavy Electrons. YES the Thorax is a close range ship, and it should win close range fights. The problem is giving it SO much DPS that it can easily tank an approach on another cruiser long enough to WTFPWN it once it gets under 10km. THAT is the problem. It SHOULDN'T be winning scenarios under 30km. The problem is that it's getting away with that by taking advantage of overpowered plates (fittingswise) and free DPS through its drone bay allowing it to do damage and tank at the same time, something which other cruisers aren't very capable of. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:24:00 -
[446]
A year ago, i would have said i doub't it.. this day and age.. you might do.. being as i tend to fly 4 ships.. thats the enyo, ishtar deimos.. and my 125mm railgun II + 1600mm plate rax.. and i will freely admit, that the plate is what makes it overpowered.. but you remove the plate, and the rax becomes even easier to kill. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:24:00 -
[447]
A year ago, i would have said i doub't it.. this day and age.. you might do.. being as i tend to fly 4 ships.. thats the enyo, ishtar deimos.. and my 125mm railgun II + 1600mm plate rax.. and i will freely admit, that the plate is what makes it overpowered.. but you remove the plate, and the rax becomes even easier to kill. |
DrunkenOne |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:25:00 -
[448]
lol? I just showed you that all he flies is raxes, and he solo kills BS in them, yet he is the one who started a thread saying nerf the thorax. Yeah, hes jumping on the bandwagon. Idiot alts. |
DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:25:00 -
[449]
lol? I just showed you that all he flies is raxes, and he solo kills BS in them, yet he is the one who started a thread saying nerf the thorax. Yeah, hes jumping on the bandwagon. Idiot alts. Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:27:00 -
[450] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 05:29:48
Yes. I remember chasing several Ushra'Khan ruptures. With drones that could never keep pace, and blasters that could never get into range. No, the thorax was not the king of the dual mwd rage. It does happen to be the king of the plate rage. The MWD silliness got fixed (along with oversized afterburners) so let's get the plate issue fixed as well. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:27:00 -
[451] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 05:29:48
Yes. I remember chasing several Ushra'Khan ruptures. With drones that could never keep pace, and blasters that could never get into range. No, the thorax was not the king of the dual mwd rage. It does happen to be the king of the plate rage. The MWD silliness got fixed (along with oversized afterburners) so let's get the plate issue fixed as well. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:31:00 -
[452] True that the Rupture benefitted most from Dual MWDs, but the Thorax vs any other ship was ridiculous. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:31:00 -
[453] True that the Rupture benefitted most from Dual MWDs, but the Thorax vs any other ship was ridiculous. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:57:00 -
[454] Anyone who flies minnie ships knows a close range rupture's lower armor will make it suffer more,plates or not.Not to mention the cap deficiencies of minnie ships,which compensates for the lack of cap use on guns.Autocannons do actually have some cap use because of the rapid rate of fire.But that is not the point,just a clarification. I'll draw the picture again: All t1 cruisers except rax: Option 1)Either fit med guns for long range,minimal or no tank and shoot from long range where you can't tackle,or go medium short range guns,grit your teeth and mwd to the target.You die easily but at least you do decent damage if you get close. Option 2)Fit small guns and a nice tank.Small guns means you still have to approach,even if it's the long range variant of small guns,and do it at speeds lower than a frig,with a big sig radius as you MWD to your target.You get hit hard,but you can tank it better,however your damage against larger targets suffers. Thorax with small guns,plate and heavy drones:You still suffer from damage on your way in,just like everyone else does.You can tank as well as,if not better than,everyone else bar the maller.You can hit small targets with your small guns.Everything ok thus far.You don't suffer from the lack of damage against bigger targets,while everyone else does,since you have 8 heavy drones.Not good. No argument about expensive ships who "must" own the cheap ones all the time here,just comparing tech1 cruisers all the way. The thorax doesn't add variety to the game,as it is now it is THE cookie cutter setup,a no-brainer.People who fly other races' ships can choose to be on he side of variety and fit for different things,or fit a specific anti-thorax setup and be useless in most of the other situations.With the amount of thoraxes around,if all the cruiser pilots don't start flying one themselves,they will fit specifically to counter it.So we have 1 setup for the thorax to take on small and big ships at the same time,and 1 setup for each other cruiser to counter the rax.I fail to see any variety here. It's not a nerf,it's a balanncing act imo,especially if the fitting problems on all cruisers are taken care of. Otherwise,we could boost the other cruisers the following way.Since drones are a gallnete specialisation,dont't give drone space to the rest of them.Just make it so small projectiles do more damage to reach the DPS of a thorax.Lower the cap use and increase damage on small lasers to do the same.Boost damage of missiles and rails for caldari.Of course,if small guns get this uber,med ones must be even better,boost them too.All the med guns,bar the gallente ones though,or the rax will own again(whines coming again) This way,we can balance the cruisers without hurting the drone bay of "the precious".We also make all frigates overpowered against cruisers (which results in more whining)and,in gangs,against BS's(and the whining rises exponentially).Cruisers with med guns against BS's are also a very big threat now. We also cancel the missile balancing that was done and totally break it,since torps and cruise will still not be that hot against small ships,but light and heavy missiles get a boost so caldari can deal with the rax,a boost that makes them even more dangerous for BS's.And also make it necessary for the bigger ships to get a boost as well,or they won't stand a chance in hell against 4-5 frigates/cruisers with med guns,since the small guns/missiles that we boosted to help balance the cruisers can still be fitted on frigs which a BS can't dream of hitting unless at extreme long range.This brings about better tracking and damage for the large guns (through the expected amount of whine,although a rightful one),which in the end results in BS's getting some decent protection against frigs.And totally bbq the slower cruisers again,plated or not,negating the agility boost that was implemented and rendering them useless once more.But you get to keep your drone bay |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:57:00 -
[455] Anyone who flies minnie ships knows a close range rupture's lower armor will make it suffer more,plates or not.Not to mention the cap deficiencies of minnie ships,which compensates for the lack of cap use on guns.Autocannons do actually have some cap use because of the rapid rate of fire.But that is not the point,just a clarification. I'll draw the picture again: All t1 cruisers except rax: Option 1)Either fit med guns for long range,minimal or no tank and shoot from long range where you can't tackle,or go medium short range guns,grit your teeth and mwd to the target.You die easily but at least you do decent damage if you get close. Option 2)Fit small guns and a nice tank.Small guns means you still have to approach,even if it's the long range variant of small guns,and do it at speeds lower than a frig,with a big sig radius as you MWD to your target.You get hit hard,but you can tank it better,however your damage against larger targets suffers. Thorax with small guns,plate and heavy drones:You still suffer from damage on your way in,just like everyone else does.You can tank as well as,if not better than,everyone else bar the maller.You can hit small targets with your small guns.Everything ok thus far.You don't suffer from the lack of damage against bigger targets,while everyone else does,since you have 8 heavy drones.Not good. No argument about expensive ships who "must" own the cheap ones all the time here,just comparing tech1 cruisers all the way. The thorax doesn't add variety to the game,as it is now it is THE cookie cutter setup,a no-brainer.People who fly other races' ships can choose to be on he side of variety and fit for different things,or fit a specific anti-thorax setup and be useless in most of the other situations.With the amount of thoraxes around,if all the cruiser pilots don't start flying one themselves,they will fit specifically to counter it.So we have 1 setup for the thorax to take on small and big ships at the same time,and 1 setup for each other cruiser to counter the rax.I fail to see any variety here. It's not a nerf,it's a balanncing act imo,especially if the fitting problems on all cruisers are taken care of. Otherwise,we could boost the other cruisers the following way.Since drones are a gallnete specialisation,dont't give drone space to the rest of them.Just make it so small projectiles do more damage to reach the DPS of a thorax.Lower the cap use and increase damage on small lasers to do the same.Boost damage of missiles and rails for caldari.Of course,if small guns get this uber,med ones must be even better,boost them too.All the med guns,bar the gallente ones though,or the rax will own again(whines coming again) This way,we can balance the cruisers without hurting the drone bay of "the precious".We also make all frigates overpowered against cruisers (which results in more whining)and,in gangs,against BS's(and the whining rises exponentially).Cruisers with med guns against BS's are also a very big threat now. We also cancel the missile balancing that was done and totally break it,since torps and cruise will still not be that hot against small ships,but light and heavy missiles get a boost so caldari can deal with the rax,a boost that makes them even more dangerous for BS's.And also make it necessary for the bigger ships to get a boost as well,or they won't stand a chance in hell against 4-5 frigates/cruisers with med guns,since the small guns/missiles that we boosted to help balance the cruisers can still be fitted on frigs which a BS can't dream of hitting unless at extreme long range.This brings about better tracking and damage for the large guns (through the expected amount of whine,although a rightful one),which in the end results in BS's getting some decent protection against frigs.And totally bbq the slower cruisers again,plated or not,negating the agility boost that was implemented and rendering them useless once more.But you get to keep your drone bay |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:34:00 -
[456]
You more or less made my case here. Fix the 1600mm plate. Then the thorax loses its durability. The thorax benefits most from the 1600mm plate...but it also has the most to lose. I beseech all of you: test shooting at a non-plated, mwding thorax. Seriously. Everybody is hung up on the 1600mm plate durability issue here...nobody seems to appreciate just how fragile a non-plated mwd-ing thorax is. You'll understand why no real thorax pilot wants their drones taken away: the damage output is NEEDED. That is the nature of a thorax. Plate needs looked into. Drones do not. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:34:00 -
[457]
You more or less made my case here. Fix the 1600mm plate. Then the thorax loses its durability. The thorax benefits most from the 1600mm plate...but it also has the most to lose. I beseech all of you: test shooting at a non-plated, mwding thorax. Seriously. Everybody is hung up on the 1600mm plate durability issue here...nobody seems to appreciate just how fragile a non-plated mwd-ing thorax is. You'll understand why no real thorax pilot wants their drones taken away: the damage output is NEEDED. That is the nature of a thorax. Plate needs looked into. Drones do not. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:42:00 -
[458]
This is the key point thats been brought up, time and time again.. but its ignored, as people are too blinkered by the large drone bay. Plates and to some degree sheild extenders have to be fixed.. Once this is done, many ships that seem overpowered, will be sorted out. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:42:00 -
[459]
This is the key point thats been brought up, time and time again.. but its ignored, as people are too blinkered by the large drone bay. Plates and to some degree sheild extenders have to be fixed.. Once this is done, many ships that seem overpowered, will be sorted out. |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.25 07:06:00 -
[460] Don't go around evading the point please.I didn't say not to fix the plate.Even with a smaller plate the thorax will still be king of cruisers.To reiterate: One way to balance it is to boost small guns so all plated cruisers with frig sized guns can match the rax,which leads to the the circle of events i posted above,in which i forgot to mention that raven will be useless unless they boost torps and cruise again(makes sense if the rest of the BS weapons get boosted,right?),so there goes the missile balance again...moving in circles is bad for the game. Otherwise we have to give the ability to all cruisers to field a decent number of heavy drones,no less than 5-6.This will lead to nobody in BS ever engaging in short range again-->more sniping-->more blobbing--->more ganking--->less tactics and diversity. Even with 800mm plates the thorax will still be overpowered.You'll die faster,so will every other cruiser.You'll still be able to outdamage every other cruiser AND have a decent defence against small ships at the same time,with ONE setup.Again,less decisions,less diversity. The pulse range adjustments were needed.I can't snipe with autocannons,gallente can't snipe with blasters,why did amarr do so with pulses?The missile changes were necessary,although they may still require some tweaking.The drone bay size adjustment and maybe even the oversized plates are the next thing on the line.If CCP is half-caring about balance in this game,they WILL downgrade it,and nothing i or anyone else says will change it.I just hope they finally go ahead and do it,along with giving the rax some extra grid for decent medium guns,even if small tech2 blasters can wreck for more than some medium tech2 autocannons. After all,the projectile tracking got adjusted at some point(so low in fact that they had to boost it again recently,and this boost only applies to autocannons),missiles and pulses got their share as well,so it's the turn of the gallente pilots to adapt to a new environment.I have outlined a couple of solutions to balance the situation while keeping the drone bay intact.I have also given various possible implications of this that might have a much more adverse effect on the game,thus breaking more than actually fixing.Just because 1 of the 4 races likes a ship so much doesn't mean that the rest of us have to actually like it too,especially when our ships have already been changed to further a better balance.Face it people,it's rax's turn. |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.25 07:06:00 -
[461] Don't go around evading the point please.I didn't say not to fix the plate.Even with a smaller plate the thorax will still be king of cruisers.To reiterate: One way to balance it is to boost small guns so all plated cruisers with frig sized guns can match the rax,which leads to the the circle of events i posted above,in which i forgot to mention that raven will be useless unless they boost torps and cruise again(makes sense if the rest of the BS weapons get boosted,right?),so there goes the missile balance again...moving in circles is bad for the game. Otherwise we have to give the ability to all cruisers to field a decent number of heavy drones,no less than 5-6.This will lead to nobody in BS ever engaging in short range again-->more sniping-->more blobbing--->more ganking--->less tactics and diversity. Even with 800mm plates the thorax will still be overpowered.You'll die faster,so will every other cruiser.You'll still be able to outdamage every other cruiser AND have a decent defence against small ships at the same time,with ONE setup.Again,less decisions,less diversity. The pulse range adjustments were needed.I can't snipe with autocannons,gallente can't snipe with blasters,why did amarr do so with pulses?The missile changes were necessary,although they may still require some tweaking.The drone bay size adjustment and maybe even the oversized plates are the next thing on the line.If CCP is half-caring about balance in this game,they WILL downgrade it,and nothing i or anyone else says will change it.I just hope they finally go ahead and do it,along with giving the rax some extra grid for decent medium guns,even if small tech2 blasters can wreck for more than some medium tech2 autocannons. After all,the projectile tracking got adjusted at some point(so low in fact that they had to boost it again recently,and this boost only applies to autocannons),missiles and pulses got their share as well,so it's the turn of the gallente pilots to adapt to a new environment.I have outlined a couple of solutions to balance the situation while keeping the drone bay intact.I have also given various possible implications of this that might have a much more adverse effect on the game,thus breaking more than actually fixing.Just because 1 of the 4 races likes a ship so much doesn't mean that the rest of us have to actually like it too,especially when our ships have already been changed to further a better balance.Face it people,it's rax's turn. |
Narial Thrikill |
Posted - 2005.08.25 07:18:00 -
[462] Edited by: Narial Thrikill on 25/08/2005 07:24:11
what? armor: rupture 1050, thorax 1050 cap: rupture 1000, thorax 1100 autocannon cap (small and medium): 0 hi slots: rupture 6, thorax 5 med slots: rupture 3, thorax 3 low slots: rupture 5, thorax 5 grid: rupture 725, thorax 700 cpu: rupture 275, thorax 300 |
Narial Thrikill |
Posted - 2005.08.25 07:18:00 -
[463] Edited by: Narial Thrikill on 25/08/2005 07:36:15 Edited by: Narial Thrikill on 25/08/2005 07:24:11
what? armor: rupture 1050, thorax 1050 cap: rupture 1000, thorax 1100 autocannon cap (small and medium): 0 hi slots: rupture 6, thorax 5 med slots: rupture 3, thorax 3 low slots: rupture 5, thorax 5 grid: rupture 725, thorax 700 cpu: rupture 275, thorax 300 a rupture with not many skills can easily fix an 800mm plate, 3 passive hardeners, med rep, 4 dual 180mm ac's (medium guns), webber, t2 ab, cap recharger, 2 assault missile launchers. i havent done it yet myself, but i may try it. |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.25 07:30:00 -
[464]
Hmm,you do have a point about the armor,my mistake there,although different resists and ammo types also play a big part that goes on to confuse things even more. But when i talk cap i mostly talk about recharge rates and the rax's MWD bonus,since i was discussing a close range scenario.Cap on autocannonons is not 0 though,when firing 5x220mm II's on the vagabond with a couple of gyro II's i get a constant 5-10% cap drain,due to the high rof(even if autos have almost no cap reqs). Anyway,i should have made it clearer,but i'm too short of sleep atm However,i still stand for what i said earlier about the whole drone bay issue.I guess we'll all just have to agree that we disagree,move on and wait for the devs to read this thread and decide for themselves. |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.25 07:30:00 -
[465]
Hmm,you do have a point about the armor,my mistake there,although different resists and ammo types also play a big part that goes on to confuse things even more. But when i talk cap i mostly talk about recharge rates and the rax's MWD bonus,since i was discussing a close range scenario.Cap on autocannonons is not 0 though,when firing 5x220mm II's on the vagabond with a couple of gyro II's i get a constant 5-10% cap drain,due to the high rof(even if autos have almost no cap reqs). Anyway,i should have made it clearer,but i'm too short of sleep atm However,i still stand for what i said earlier about the whole drone bay issue.I guess we'll all just have to agree that we disagree,move on and wait for the devs to read this thread and decide for themselves. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 10:03:00 -
[466]
The 'freak for president \o/ Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 10:03:00 -
[467]
The 'freak for president \o/ Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 10:04:00 -
[468]That is exactly my feeling when you don't ever bother replying to the post i made especially to prove you wrong. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 10:04:00 -
[469]That is exactly my feeling when you don't ever bother replying to the post i made especially to prove you wrong. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
CrowBar1 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:18:00 -
[470] how about you people that want every thing nerfed nerf your self and stfu for a change all i read on these forums is nerf this nerf that. ok if ccp nerfs every thing then you know what soon we wont be able to even to kill a simple jettison can so quit yer *****in and live with it. i dont like the rax my self but that dont mean it needs to be nerfed. a bunch of cry babies got missiles nerfed now ravens are worthless people want the mega nerfed cause it deals alot of damage at a mind numbing 3.5km what next the ibis? cause its civilian gattling gun deals a whole 1hp of damage? what it all boils down to is some one got there ass handed to them cause they were in the wrong ship at the wrong time to bad for them noobs. |
 CrowBar1 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:18:00 -
[471] how about you people that want every thing nerfed nerf your self and stfu for a change all i read on these forums is nerf this nerf that. ok if ccp nerfs every thing then you know what soon we wont be able to even to kill a simple jettison can so quit yer *****in and live with it. i dont like the rax my self but that dont mean it needs to be nerfed. a bunch of cry babies got missiles nerfed now ravens are worthless people want the mega nerfed cause it deals alot of damage at a mind numbing 3.5km what next the ibis? cause its civilian gattling gun deals a whole 1hp of damage? what it all boils down to is some one got there ass handed to them cause they were in the wrong ship at the wrong time to bad for them noobs. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:27:00 -
[472]
Arguing about a nerf is fine by CCP. If you believe the thorax should not be nerfed, defeat the arguments. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:27:00 -
[473] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 11:33:13
Arguing about a nerf is fine by CCP. If you believe the thorax should not be nerfed, defeat the arguments given and not those that you invented.
So what, there are nerfs that don't suit you and other that do. Guess what, even if it was a valid argument (which it is not) it could be used by everyone else. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Kye Kenshin |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:49:00 -
[474] Jesus Christ Naughty boy! Why the hell are you so passionate about this? Its really starting to scare me. Did a gang of Thorax's beat you up and steal your lunch money as child? But im sure your just quote this thread with some long winded counter arguement. Anyway i really dont care what happens to the rax now. Nerf it all you want i moved up into T2 and BS and i dont understand why all these older players care about what happens to a friggin cruiser anyway. By the way rax having 8 drones doesn't make it capable of killing BS its the 1600mm plate that does. |
Kye Kenshin Sanctum's Edge |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:49:00 -
[475] Jesus Christ Naughty boy! Why the hell are you so passionate about this? Its really starting to scare me. Did a gang of Thorax's beat you up and steal your lunch money as child? But im sure your just quote this thread with some long winded counter arguement. Anyway i really dont care what happens to the rax now. Nerf it all you want i moved up into T2 and BS and i dont understand why all these older players care about what happens to a friggin cruiser anyway. By the way rax having 8 drones doesn't make it capable of killing BS its the 1600mm plate that does. |
CrowBar1 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:56:00 -
[476] heh find one post by me where i want something nerfed. now lets get back on topic people want the rax nerfed because of its drones? well dont stop there nerf the domi too its got a good size drone bay and can use 425's omg its uber nerf it now lol. lets not stop there either lets nerf the scorpion's med slots cause it's one of the best EW ships out there omg i got pwned by a scorp because it webified me warp scrambled me and target jamed me then molested me with torps. ok now if every one could run the same setup on every ship then no one would be able to kill any one then what would be the point of pvp? it should all be left up to the skills if a pilot with 15mil sp kills a pilot with 3mil sp then the pilot with 3mil sp wants that ship nerfed cause he got his ass kicked. i bet that every one of these nerf this post are made by miner's wanting to be fighters and when they loose they come crying here to have somthing nerfed down to the point to where a fighter pilot cant win any battle.what gets me is that this is suppose to be a game where your suppose to have fun but all i can see is people crying about this and that.if i dont like a game i dont play it if i dont like whats on tv i turn the channel simple as that. |
CrowBar1 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:56:00 -
[477] heh find one post by me where i want something nerfed. now lets get back on topic people want the rax nerfed because of its drones? well dont stop there nerf the domi too its got a good size drone bay and can use 425's omg its uber nerf it now lol. lets not stop there either lets nerf the scorpion's med slots cause it's one of the best EW ships out there omg i got pwned by a scorp because it webified me warp scrambled me and target jamed me then molested me with torps. ok now if every one could run the same setup on every ship then no one would be able to kill any one then what would be the point of pvp? it should all be left up to the skills if a pilot with 15mil sp kills a pilot with 3mil sp then the pilot with 3mil sp wants that ship nerfed cause he got his ass kicked. i bet that every one of these nerf this post are made by miner's wanting to be fighters and when they loose they come crying here to have somthing nerfed down to the point to where a fighter pilot cant win any battle.what gets me is that this is suppose to be a game where your suppose to have fun but all i can see is people crying about this and that.if i dont like a game i dont play it if i dont like whats on tv i turn the channel simple as that. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:03:00 -
[478] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 12:06:51 I agree with that. But I fail to see how this is supporting your point. See below.
I do not agree. The thorax is not the only close range cruiser, yet it is the only one that get so much rewarded in extra damage (your own argument). This is by such a margin (see numbers) that it totally defeats the point of fitting any other cruiser for close range, except for sentimental reasons. This is true with the plate, or without the plate. Now, there's the other issue with long range cruisers (aka, the other cruisers, see above). You tell that as the thorax does what it should to close the distance to a long range cruiser, it need the firepower (of guns + drones) when it get there. I do not see how exactly it need 8 heavy drones, because 10 mediums drones are not enough. I would like you to show me how exactly you draw the line, because frankly this is the exact part of you argument that is going too far. And i quote you: It is not my fault that the thorax is best not used as a blaster boat. The drone bay is the reason why it is not best used as a blaster boat. Who need blasters on the thorax when there is such a drone bay ? I am afraid that your are strugling against your own point here. Finally, there's another issue with the idea of giving other close range cruisers more damage (or all other cruisers more damage). I know that i already wrote this, but as it seems it doesn't look to be clear. You are not going to increase the survivability of cruisers by increasing their damage. This is "gank area" syndrome but it is not a reason in itself. Cruisers are not used because their are not dealing enough damage, they are not used because they are not survivable enough (hence the plate setups with even LESS damage). I believe that i challenged your affirmation well enough. Feel free to correct me. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:03:00 -
[479] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 12:06:51 I agree with that. But I fail to see how this is supporting your point. See below.
I do not agree. The thorax is not the only close range cruiser, yet it is the only one that get so much rewarded in extra damage (your own argument). This is by such a margin (see numbers) that it totally defeats the point of fitting any other cruiser for close range, except for sentimental reasons. This is true with the plate, or without the plate. Now, there's the other issue with long range cruisers (aka, the other cruisers, see above). You tell that as the thorax does what it should to close the distance to a long range cruiser, it need the firepower (of guns + drones) when it get there. I do not see how exactly it need 8 heavy drones, because 10 mediums drones are not enough. I would like you to show me how exactly you draw the line, because frankly this is the exact part of you argument that is going too far. And i quote you: It is not my fault that the thorax is best not used as a blaster boat. The drone bay is the reason why it is not best used as a blaster boat. Who need blasters on the thorax when there is such a drone bay ? I am afraid that your are strugling against your own point here. Finally, there's another issue with the idea of giving other close range cruisers more damage (or all other cruisers more damage). I know that i already wrote this, but as it seems it doesn't look to be clear. You are not going to increase the survivability of cruisers by increasing their damage. This is "gank area" syndrome but it is not a reason in itself. Cruisers are not used because their are not dealing enough damage, they are not used because they are not survivable enough (hence the plate setups with even LESS damage). I believe that i challenged your affirmation well enough. Feel free to correct me. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:06:00 -
[480]No. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:06:00 -
[481]No. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Stuart85 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:07:00 -
[482]
And the award for gross oversimplification of the year goes to... |
Stuart85 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:07:00 -
[483]
And the award for gross oversimplification of the year goes to... |
CrowBar1 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:25:00 -
[484]every once in a while soe things have to be repeated over and over to get through some thick skulls :) |
CrowBar1 |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:25:00 -
[485]every once in a while soe things have to be repeated over and over to get through some thick skulls :) |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:40:00 -
[486]
It is the only short-range cruiser where long-range variants are not viable.
I guess it's also not your fault that this was obviously the role for which it was intended. You're speaking from ignorance again. Try to put together a viable railgun setup on a thorax, leaving out the 1600mm plate option (yes, 150mm IIs are a pretty viable rail setup, but my whole argument is that the 1600mm plate needs sorted out.) You'll quickly find that it cannot effectively fit rails and maintain any surviveability. Even with 200mm rails, it's simply not viable. 8 heavy drones don't matter for beans when an mwd-ing thorax can be gunned down by a proper cruiser in about 25 seconds. Especially if you're talking an engagement beyond 20km where it's going to take about that amount of time for the drones to even reach you. So what do we do then: change the whole premise of the Thorax? Give it more grid and less drones and let the maller come up as the next overpowered 1600mm cruiser? That's nonsensical. Your challenge doesn't hold water, because you won't acknowledge that the thorax was designed as the premier blaster/drone boat, that it's very fragile in this role without the 1600mm plate, but very effective in the right hands. |
 Agnar Koladrov Gallente Hurricane Corporation |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:51:00 -
[487]
If you don`t mind me saying, no cruiser can fit max top end med weapons and have survivebility, leaves them with no pg for anything else. That is not only the problem of the Rax, it is a problem for all cruisers. ________________________________________________ -- What a Revelation! -- Where was the creativty for speed/mass/etc when the tier2 Battlecruisers were designed? Why the same for each race BC? |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:22:00 -
[488] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 13:33:40 I beg to differ. The stabber has more trouble fitting 4 650mm artillery than the thorax to fit 200mm railguns. I could go on, but that example should be enough as you said "the only": one counter-example is enough to defeat this affirmation. Or, maybe, did you mean that it is the only tier 3 short-range cruiser where long-range variants are not viable. As far as i can tell, the rupture and moa are long range cruisers, so you are only comparing the thorax to the maller. How exactly is that of any relevance ? I won't comment the ignorance statement again, but i feel that you should refrain from personal insults. Fitting 650mm artillery to a stabber is hard because it is not what it was intended to do, which is fine. Fitting blasters on a moa doesn't work either (irrelevant bonus, low speed and agility, heavy mass) because it is not what it was intended to be. Fitting 200mm rails on a thorax is hard, because that is not what it was intended to be. This is a good and nobody is challenging that. I say that the thorax is a blaster boat, with drones as a secondary weapon. As the moa is a railboat, with missiles as a secondary weapon. You say that the thorax is a close range damage boat, and i'm even going to say that i agree with that. Now, please answer my question: You tell that as the thorax has to close the range to a long range cruiser, it need the firepower (of guns + drones) when it get there. How exactly do you justify that it need 8 heavy drones, and that 10 mediums drones are not enough. That is the only question that is relevant here, as i never mentionned plate or small guns. If they don't matter, why don't you want to lose them ? The 1600mm plate thorax is powerfull. The 1600mm plate rupture is powerfull. The 1600mm plate moa is powerfull. The 1600mm plate maller is powerfull. If 1600mm plate need to be nerfed, something that i never said - nor did i say the opposite, so be it. But, and that is the exact problem that is mentionned since the very beginning of this thread, only the plate-rax is versatile (with the same fitting) to an overpowered point. You keep ignoring this, whereas this is the main point. And, to be honest, with 10 mediums drones the plate-thorax would still be a far more versatile and efficient plate-cruiser than the maller so this point is moot. (continued) Edit: missing tag. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:22:00 -
[489] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 13:32:03 ok. It is very effective in the right hand. Whatever, don't you see that every ship in this game should be very effective in the right hand ? I'm sorry but i can't see the relevance of this. Now, you want all the argument resolving around a thorax without plate. That is equivalent to say: "CCP said that they would nerf the 1600mm plates tomorrow so that they are not worth fitting." You then want me to accept that thorax + any gun + 8 heavy drones is not overpowered. I'll give you the same argument, based on the way you want balance in this game to be considered: "1 vs 1, same class vs same class, nobody ever warp out". How is any close-range non-plated cruiser supposed to beat the thorax ? You already told me how a long range cruiser "in your 1 vs 1 dreamworld" would kill the non-plated thorax. How is a short range, non plated cruiser, supposed to do ? It cannot, and you'll say that it is normal because the thorax is the ultimate close range cruiser. Well, i told you, it is so ultimate that it totally rules out any possibility of fitting any cruiser for close range. Now, and i'm even going further, long range cruisers are not so viable in pvp because they would sit at the optimal of battleships. Hence, your passion to keep the thorax as it is because we need cruisers on the battlefield, don't we is in fact contributing a lot to removing cruisers (othr cruisers, might i add) from the battlefield. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:41:00 -
[490]
Nerfing the plates nerf ALL Cruisers. Nerfing the drone bay on the thorax brings the thorax back in line with the tier 3 cruisers. How can you be so blind? You want to keep something that even the DEVs wanted to take away at one point because they saw a problem and said they would revisit it when it became a bigger problem. Now it is a blatent problem because drones do superior damage and its not just because of plates. You forget MANY people use Webs for PvP and Webs + Drones = better than any small or medium rack of guns. Plates put put ALL combat capable cruisers into large armor range NOT just the thorax. You just want your cake. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
 Vee Bot |
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:47:00 -
[491] Is restricing tech I cruisers to light and medium drones only an option? Ten mediums does nice dmg, and not *too* over the top for cruisers. ------------------ Remember that your Unique, like everyone else. |
Agnar Koladrov Gallente Hurricane Corporation |
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:50:00 -
[492] Why restrict cruiser to med/light drones only? Heavies are ok on there own, but like the word implies, they are heavy = more mass. So it is more then logical to say you can only take very few heavies in a cruisers dronebay. That would even up on med and light drones in firepower. ________________________________________________ -- What a Revelation! -- Where was the creativty for speed/mass/etc when the tier2 Battlecruisers were designed? Why the same for each race BC? |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:02:00 -
[493] Edited by: j0sephine on 25/08/2005 14:03:09 Out of curiosity... would anyone involved in the thread mind spending some time on the test server, checking how: * Thorax with 800mm plate performs against other cruisers also limited to 800mm plate tops..? * Thorax with 4 heavy drones tops performs against other cruisers using any equipment available nowadays * Thorax with anything between say 4-6 drones and 800mm plate performs against other cruisers limited to 800mm armour * Thorax limited to medium drones and different plate variants performs against other cruisers limited in similar manner would kind of make it easier to see what kind of impact the suggested changes (nerf the plate, nerf the drone bay, nerf them all and fly just Ibises etc) ... would have... slightly more practical than just arguing about it on the forum o.O; |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:10:00 -
[494] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 14:20:14
Good idea, j0sephine. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: removed useless comment. In Rust We Trust |
 Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:14:00 -
[495] Oh thats so nice, you little crybabies nerfed the entire Caldari line and now you are after Gallente lol. Ok lets do it then just because we must all be Ammar. When you remove rof from gankgeddon and zealot, when you fix the silly 3000 (from 1 single gun lol) dmg of the projectiles, when you fix the silly claw AF (yes AF if it can equip full rack of guns and plate to have 1100 hp armour) when you gimp the immortal armour tank of the apoc, in fact when you actually make shield tank as cap efficient as armour tanking (or close), when you give caldari a reward for training HAC instead of the ridicule of HAC trying to ouitsnipe BS with 4 M turrets against 6-8 L turrets, when you make a Moa as durable as a maller and -finally- when you fix the missles so that drones become again a second rate anti frig weapon, theeeeeen come back here to argue your case. Until then LOCK THIS SILLY THREAD.  [ranting IS nice after all :) ] Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:16:00 -
[496] Edited by: j0sephine on 25/08/2005 14:17:21 edit: no longer applies ^^;; |
Vee Bot |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:55:00 -
[497]
Yeah true i guess, but when a thorax parks next to a tempest or appoc or something im wondering how the heck the far smaller ship can carry two more of the heavyest drone type, a thorax holds 8 the don of all drone boats holds 15 of the same tyoe of drones. Do the other cruisers get half of a battle ships main weapon plus there normal weapon slots..... Well that was my thinking... 4 heavys or 10 mediums sounds like the same outcome tho, you have a piont. ------------------ Remember that your Unique, like everyone else. |
Zophi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:01:00 -
[498] OK, that was a long read getting here. I fly Thorax and Domi usually. But I cant help laugh everytime someone says that THoraxes own battleships. OK, I'll pit my thorax against my Domi with thier current setup: Ships : Thorax - Domi Armor : 4500 (3x hardners) - 20000 (4x hardners) Drones : 8 heavy (no spares) - 15 heavy (15 spares) Guns : 5 150mm rails - 4 x 425mm rails (or 6x electron blasters) Top Speed : 700 m/s (MWD) - 300 m/s (MWD) Other : Web/Scramb - Web/Scram/ECM Now, lets see. That looks like one DEAD Thorax if he picks that battle. If other battleships cant pawn the Thorax just as much, well then we should start a "Nerf the Dominix" topic. Thorax is uber vs. frigs. Good vs. Cruisers, but pretty lame vs. battleships. Just like it should be. But it all relies on the drones. And drones tend to DIE. Not funny in 0.0 hostile space with may jumps to a friendly port. In empire or for defence though, its the cruiser of choise. Paper, rock, siccors. I love EvE. --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
 Zophi TAOSP Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:01:00 -
[499] OK, that was a long read getting here. I fly Thorax and Domi usually. But I cant help laugh everytime someone says that THoraxes own battleships. OK, I'll pit my thorax against my Domi with thier current setup: Ships : Thorax - Domi Armor : 4500 (3x hardners) - 20000 (4x hardners) Drones : 8 heavy (no spares) - 15 heavy (15 spares) Guns : 5 150mm rails - 4 x 425mm rails (or 6x electron blasters) Top Speed : 700 m/s (MWD) - 300 m/s (MWD) Other : Web/Scramb - Web/Scram/ECM Now, lets see. That looks like one DEAD Thorax if he picks that battle. If other battleships cant pawn the Thorax just as much, well then we should start a "Nerf the Dominix" topic. Thorax is uber vs. frigs. Good vs. Cruisers, but pretty lame vs. battleships. Just like it should be. But it all relies on the drones. And drones tend to DIE. Not funny in 0.0 hostile space with may jumps to a friendly port. In empire or for defence though, its the cruiser of choise. Paper, rock, siccors. I love EvE. --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:14:00 -
[500]
Sorry but your absolutely wrong. As long as damage types, differences in resistances, slot layouts, sig radius, speed and weapon sizes vary there will NEVER be like ships in EVE. Glaring Imbalances such as the Thorax Drone bay put a toolset the mass userbase to not worry about other ship classes because they can achieve Nirvana on one ship. It can tank, it can output any damage type, it can go gank, it can embrace its bonuses OR absolutely never need them. It can take ships like Covert Ops and make it the dynamic DUO in a way a megathron seems second class. It has little weakness. Large SmartBombs and certain configs CAN manage to exploit its weaknesses but those can also utterly annialate the other cruisers at the same time. Try harder. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:14:00 -
[501]
Sorry but your absolutely wrong. As long as damage types, differences in resistances, slot layouts, sig radius, speed and weapon sizes vary there will NEVER be like ships in EVE. Glaring Imbalances such as the Thorax Drone bay put a toolset the mass userbase to not worry about other ship classes because they can achieve Nirvana on one ship. It can tank, it can output any damage type, it can go gank, it can embrace its bonuses OR absolutely never need them. It can take ships like Covert Ops and make it the dynamic DUO in a way a megathron seems second class. It has little weakness. Large SmartBombs and certain configs CAN manage to exploit its weaknesses but those can also utterly annialate the other cruisers at the same time. Try harder. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:19:00 -
[502]
It has already been stated in this thread that Dominix is the better ship. As for the rest of your post... you don't get out much do you? I am in Sansha space and all i see are inties, ACs and Thoraxes with the rare occasion of a Apoc or Rupture. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:19:00 -
[503]
It has already been stated in this thread that Dominix is the better ship. As for the rest of your post... you don't get out much do you? I am in Sansha space and all i see are inties, ACs and Thoraxes with the rare occasion of a Apoc or Rupture. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Crellion |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:21:00 -
[504] Edited by: Crellion on 25/08/2005 15:23:47
I dont think you understood my comment  I have never flown a Thorax (simply because everybody else does) I once owned one for about 20 mins and then took it 3 systems away and sold it. What I meant was that it is just one of the many ships that have been made uber compared to others that have been nerfed to hell and back. I simply think its silly to go on nerfing and I would very much rather we fix the ships that are now useless. For example bolster the dmg output of the poor Eagle. |
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:21:00 -
[505] Edited by: Crellion on 25/08/2005 15:23:47
I dont think you understood my comment I have never flown a Thorax (simply because everybody else does) I once owned one for about 20 mins and then took it 3 systems away and sold it. What I meant was that it is just one of the many ships that have been made uber compared to others that have been nerfed to hell and back. I simply think its silly to go on nerfing and I would very much rather we fix the ships that are now useless. For example bolster the dmg output of the poor Eagle.Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Muad 'dib |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:36:00 -
[506] Edited by: Muad ''dib on 25/08/2005 17:51:48 Wow big thread just for a little thorax. Well while reading through this i remeber seeing some1 quote that 8 heavy drones does around 170 dps. Well just for the record my rupture with 4x gyro IIs and 4x 720mm IIs does 200 dps. So any argument against the raxes drone bay nerf is null and void - Rax is overpowered and its the drone bay that does it. pro Rupture pilot with 8 mil in gunnery using ranged weapons 200 dps noob Thorax pilot with 800k in drones using just heavy drones 170 dps edit: apparently thats with a few level 5s, so maybee more than 800k sp... still faaar less and not counting turrets.Its like the old raven when it comes to SP vs. output |
 Muad 'dib Caldari Smoking Hillbillys The Volition Cult |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:36:00 -
[507] Edited by: Muad ''dib on 25/08/2005 17:51:48 Wow big thread just for a little thorax. Well while reading through this i remeber seeing some1 quote that 8 heavy drones does around 170 dps. Well just for the record my rupture with 4x gyro IIs and 4x 720mm IIs does 200 dps. So any argument against the raxes drone bay nerf is null and void - Rax is overpowered and its the drone bay that does it. pro Rupture pilot with 8 mil in gunnery using ranged weapons 200 dps noob Thorax pilot with 800k in drones using just heavy drones 170 dps edit: apparently thats with a few level 5s, so maybee more than 800k sp... still faaar less and not counting turrets.Its like the old raven when it comes to SP vs. output |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:39:00 -
[508] Talking about drones loss in 0.0, in fact we need complex solution. Now the drone bay is the only parameter which affects the drone power of the ship, and you can't give ppl more drone bay because they wont use it for spare drones, but for bigger ones. (offtopic here is that heavy drones are best choice, which is not balanced, but anyway) I think i solution could be a complex system:
just a thought |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:39:00 -
[509] Talking about drones loss in 0.0, in fact we need complex solution. Now the drone bay is the only parameter which affects the drone power of the ship, and you can't give ppl more drone bay because they wont use it for spare drones, but for bigger ones. (offtopic here is that heavy drones are best choice, which is not balanced, but anyway) I think i solution could be a complex system:
just a thought |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:41:00 -
[510] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 15:41:37 |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:41:00 -
[511] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 15:41:37 |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:54:00 -
[512] If making Drones specific to ship class is the final solution then I will live with it. If they even want an advanced drone interfacing rank(8-12) to increase +1 drone per level I am all for that. i don't care if a Thorax can use 15 Medium Drones NOR do I care if a Vexor can use 20 lights. Its when you can use 8 heavies with little SP investment ( compared to a AF, HAC, BS pilot ) and still have a comparable or better ship. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:54:00 -
[513] If making Drones specific to ship class is the final solution then I will live with it. If they even want an advanced drone interfacing rank(8-12) to increase +1 drone per level I am all for that. i don't care if a Thorax can use 15 Medium Drones NOR do I care if a Vexor can use 20 lights. Its when you can use 8 heavies with little SP investment ( compared to a AF, HAC, BS pilot ) and still have a comparable or better ship. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:31:00 -
[514]
You can't shoot down a ranged weapon. I'd like to see this 170dps quantified. If the above numbers really are spot on, then yeah. Switching the space with the Vexor (which can put out less dps via weapons) starts looking approachable. Agree with the SiSi testing and less BS though. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:31:00 -
[515]
You can't shoot down a ranged weapon. I'd like to see this 170dps quantified. If the above numbers really are spot on, then yeah. Switching the space with the Vexor (which can put out less dps via weapons) starts looking approachable. Agree with the SiSi testing and less BS though. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:46:00 -
[516] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 18:03:42
You can't jam all the drones.
a. thorax drone bay with ogres, 2 level 5 skills 1 level 3 skill (can't remember the ranks): 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 8 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 176 dps. b. vexor drone bay with hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 15 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 135 dps. c. vexor with thorax drone bay: 3 ogres 12 hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): ((9 * 12) + (3 * 22)) * 1.6 * 1.25 / 2 = 174 dps. As you see, swapping the vexor and thorax drone bay makes the drone control bonus barely useful, since 8 ogres outdamage a full bay (200m¦) of 15 drones (12*10m¦ + 3*25m¦ = 195m¦). d. thorax with vexor drone bay, 1 level 5 skill 1 level 1 skill: 6 ogres: 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 6 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 132 dps. e. thorax with vexor drone bay (mk II), 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead 5 spares: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. f. thorax with half drone bay, 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. This is with the most damaging t1 drones and no specialisation skills btw. I hope the calculations are right, for some reason something sounds wrong there. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: added formating, drone bay volume calculations and d., e. & f. calculations. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 17:46:00 -
[517] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 18:03:42
You can't jam all the drones.
a. thorax drone bay with ogres, 2 level 5 skills 1 level 3 skill (can't remember the ranks): 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 8 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 176 dps. b. vexor drone bay with hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 15 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 135 dps. c. vexor with thorax drone bay: 3 ogres 12 hammerheads, 4 level 5 skills (including the cruiser skill at level 5): ((9 * 12) + (3 * 22)) * 1.6 * 1.25 / 2 = 174 dps. As you see, swapping the vexor and thorax drone bay makes the drone control bonus barely useful, since 8 ogres outdamage a full bay (200m¦) of 15 drones (12*10m¦ + 3*25m¦ = 195m¦). d. thorax with vexor drone bay, 1 level 5 skill 1 level 1 skill: 6 ogres: 22 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 6 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 132 dps. e. thorax with vexor drone bay (mk II), 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead 5 spares: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. f. thorax with half drone bay, 3 level 5 skill: 10 hammerhead: 9 (drone damage) * 1.6 (damage mod) * 10 (number of drones) * 1.25 (skill) / 2 (ROF) = 90 dps. This is with the most damaging t1 drones and no specialisation skills btw. I hope the calculations are right, for some reason something sounds wrong there. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: added formating, drone bay volume calculations and d., e. & f. calculations. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:11:00 -
[518]
You can't jam a drone. True, and I thought about NOS after I posted.
Flight times, target aquisitions, traversal modifiers, redeployment after destruction, lack of F1-F8 keys, etc. Those numbers would be if you could hit a button on an ogre and start hitting your target at optimal immediately. Its also all thermal on an ogre (which have the most to factor with regards to flight time), and the thorax isn't gonna be mixing and matching much...whereas a turret can switch it up. And not saying you aren't right - but the numbers pulled from the items/skills isn't all of it. Cheers! |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:11:00 -
[519]
You can't jam a drone. True, and I thought about NOS after I posted.
Flight times, target aquisitions, traversal modifiers, redeployment after destruction, lack of F1-F8 keys, etc. Those numbers would be if you could hit a button on an ogre and start hitting your target at optimal immediately. Its also all thermal on an ogre (which have the most to factor with regards to flight time), and the thorax isn't gonna be mixing and matching much...whereas a turret can switch it up. And not saying you aren't right - but the numbers pulled from the items/skills isn't all of it. Cheers! --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:29:00 -
[520]
Flight time being the key factor. In a fight starting at 20km, it will take 8 heavy drones about 20 seconds to get into firing range. That's assuming the dumb-ass target just sits still. That's 20 seconds of damage the thorax has to take. By mr. "I do 200 damage per second in my rupture's" calculations, that's a good 4000 damage before resistances. Before the thorax has done one lick of damage. Does this mean ANYTHING to you folks? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:29:00 -
[521]
Flight time being the key factor. In a fight starting at 20km, it will take 8 heavy drones about 20 seconds to get into firing range. That's assuming the dumb-ass target just sits still. That's 20 seconds of damage the thorax has to take. By mr. "I do 200 damage per second in my rupture's" calculations, that's a good 4000 damage before resistances. Before the thorax has done one lick of damage. Does this mean ANYTHING to you folks? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:48:00 -
[522] Yeah, sure, and caracal at 100 km outdamages us all, how much damage would that be if you go close on it with 300m/s? 170 dps in heavy drones moves 800m/s. And once in range it doesnt stop for reload, how about that? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:48:00 -
[523] Yeah, sure, and caracal at 100 km outdamages us all, how much damage would that be if you go close on it with 300m/s? 170 dps in heavy drones moves 800m/s. And once in range it doesnt stop for reload, how about that? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:55:00 -
[524]
Oh for the love of God. When's the last time you've had to reload in a half minute combat session? Having the wrong ammo loaded for the situation and not having the brains to swiftly disengage not included... I'm not talking about some rediculous uncommon combat range here. I'm talking about a very typical range for two cruisers to encouter eachother. Assuming "typical" resistances and no 1600mm plate on the thorax, the thorax will be hurting quite a bit before it begins doing its damage. It needs a superior DoT at that point. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:55:00 -
[525]
Oh for the love of God. When's the last time you've had to reload in a half minute combat session? Having the wrong ammo loaded for the situation and not having the brains to swiftly disengage not included... I'm not talking about some rediculous uncommon combat range here. I'm talking about a very typical range for two cruisers to encouter eachother. Assuming "typical" resistances and no 1600mm plate on the thorax, the thorax will be hurting quite a bit before it begins doing its damage. It needs a superior DoT at that point. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:08:00 -
[526] For the love of god. Please. Thorax are usign 150mm rails and hits you at 20km. Rupture has autos and close on thorax.
|
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:08:00 -
[527] For the love of god. Please. Thorax are usign 150mm rails and hits you at 20km. Rupture has autos and close on thorax.
|
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:30:00 -
[528] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 19:45:40
Stats about t2 720mm: * Range: 24 km range * 0.5 (emp 50% range penalty) * 1.25 (sharpshooter to level 5) = 15 km => fight start in falloff, but let's say we don't care. * ROF: 15.75 sec * 0.75 (cruiser skill to 5) * 0.75 (rapid firing to 5) * 0.9 (gunnery to 5) = 8 seconds * damage/salvo: 4 * 6.9 (damage mod) * 1.25 (med projectile to 5) * 1.15 (surgical strike to 5) * 22 (emp damage) * 1.10 (specialization to 5) * 1.25 (cruiser skill to 5) = 1200 damage (546/0/218/436) * dps = 150 hp/s. Stats about the thorax: Thorax with a stock t1 800mm plate and 2 energized nano membranes t2, hull upgrades 5: 2250 (i think) * 1.25 = 2800. Resists : 72/55/55/38. Let's assume 1000 shield (975 base shield, up to 25% higher with skill). Simulation: Effect of the first salvo (0s): 1000 - (546 - 0.6 * 218 - 0.4 * 436) = 148 shield hp remaining. Effect of the second salvo (8s): 2800 - (0.38 * 450 - 0.45 * 180 - 0.62 * 360) = 2800 - 475 = 2325 armor hp remaining. Effect of the third salvo (16s): 2325 - (0.38 * 546 - 0.45 * 218 - 0.62 * 436) = 2325 - 575 = 1750 hp remaining. Note that at this point of time the total armor destroyed is 1050 hp (the base armor of a thorax without skill): 25% of a non plated thorax with hull upgrades 5 are still there at that moment and up to 23 seconds. And that is assuming that the fight start at the first salvo of the rupture. You could argue that at that time, the thorax can dodge the turrets (720mm artillery aren't exactly tracking good) and all various stuffs can happen from there. The rupture isn't tanked in a meaningfull way, and at best light missiles (?) and 6 meds drones are still doing some damage. Without big plates, gank > tank anyway. With big plates, well... we know :/ And yes, i know, this is not the real/test server... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: some more numbers: 0s: 148 shield; 8s: 2325 armor; 16s: 1750 armor; 24s: 1175 armor; 32s: 600 armor; 40s: 25 armor; ... and that is not accounting a med rep t2, misses/wreckings, weather and all. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:30:00 -
[529] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 12:49:02 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 25/08/2005 19:45:40
Stats about t2 720mm: * Range: 24 km range * 0.5 (emp 50% range penalty) * 1.25 (sharpshooter to level 5) = 15 km => fight start in falloff, but let's say we don't care. * ROF: 15.75 sec * 0.75 (cruiser skill to 5) * 0.75 (rapid firing to 5) * 0.9 (gunnery to 5) = 8 seconds * damage/salvo: 4 * 6.9 (damage mod) * 1.25 (med projectile to 5) * 1.15 (surgical strike to 5) * 22 (emp damage) * 1.10 (specialization to 5) * 1.25 (cruiser skill to 5) = 1200 damage (546/0/218/436) * dps = 150 hp/s. Stats about the thorax: Thorax with a stock t1 800mm plate and 2 energized nano membranes t2, hull upgrades 5: 2250 (i think) * 1.25 = 2800. Resists : 72/55/55/38. Let's assume 1000 shield (975 base shield, up to 25% higher with skill). Simulation: Effect of the first salvo (0s): 1000 - (546 - 0.6 * 218 - 0.4 * 436) = 148 shield hp remaining. Effect of the second salvo (8s): 2800 - (0.38 * 450 - 0.45 * 180 - 0.62 * 360) = 2800 - 475 = 2325 armor hp remaining. Effect of the third salvo (16s): 2325 - (0.38 * 546 - 0.45 * 218 - 0.62 * 436) = 2325 - 575 = 1750 hp remaining. Note that at this point of time the total armor destroyed is 1050 hp (the base armor of a thorax without skill): 25% of a non plated thorax with hull upgrades 5 are still there at that moment and up to 23 seconds. And that is assuming that the fight start at the first salvo of the rupture. You could argue that at that time, the thorax can dodge the turrets (720mm artillery aren't exactly tracking good) and all various stuffs can happen from there. The rupture isn't tanked in a meaningfull way, and at best light missiles (?) and 6 meds drones are still doing some damage. Without big plates, gank > tank anyway. With big plates, well... we know :/ And yes, i know, this is not the real/test server... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: some more numbers: 0s: 148 shield; 8s: 2325 armor; 16s: 1750 armor; 24s: 1175 armor; 32s: 600 armor; 40s: 25 armor; ... and that is not accounting a med rep t2, misses/wreckings, weather and all. Edit2: I forgot to take the effect of gyro stabs t2 into account, dps should be multiplied by 1.79. See correction later in the thread. Sorry again  In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:55:00 -
[530] Oh, and just to add: 720mm t2 + 4 gyro t2 = 1104 pg; rupture with engineering 5 & RCU 2 = 1042 pg. That means that the advanced weapon upgrade skill is trained on top of all the level 5 skills to a high level and that there are still 3 mids & 2 high to fit. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 19:55:00 -
[531] Oh, and just to add: 720mm t2 + 4 gyro t2 = 1104 pg; rupture with engineering 5 & RCU 2 = 1042 pg. That means that the advanced weapon upgrade skill is trained on top of all the level 5 skills to a high level and that there are still 3 mids & 2 high to fit. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:18:00 -
[532]
The Rupture with navi IV has a base speed of 240 I believe. Ogre is 700, optimal 1k/4k falloff. If a keep at distance is used on the things even at base speed it will take around 46 seconds to close a gap of around 26k into falloff and 56 seconds till the ogres are circling at optimal. By the time they close a rack of 720s should be able to pick off what, 5? If you add an MWD or AF and drop some dmg modding and whatnot, I simply fail to see the issue :/ Keep at distance. Kill drones, then swoop to the mothership. Which is why I say to test it on SiSi...the numbers look mean, but in practice a rupture should be keeping distance and destroying on the move. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:18:00 -
[533]
The Rupture with navi IV has a base speed of 240 I believe. Ogre is 700, optimal 1k/4k falloff. If a keep at distance is used on the things even at base speed it will take around 46 seconds to close a gap of around 26k into falloff and 56 seconds till the ogres are circling at optimal. By the time they close a rack of 720s should be able to pick off what, 5? If you add an MWD or AF and drop some dmg modding and whatnot, I simply fail to see the issue :/ Keep at distance. Kill drones, then swoop to the mothership. Which is why I say to test it on SiSi...the numbers look mean, but in practice a rupture should be keeping distance and destroying on the move. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:36:00 -
[534]You know, mediums drones would be twice as fast, and bringing the drones into range is about as fast when mwd'ing. Besides, i believe that this very specific case would be yet another example of gank > tank when there is no plate involved, which isn't surprizing to me. Finally, in this example, the t2 rupture has more than 6 months of training, can't tank, has two empty high (i need confirmation on this), still aweful tracking... The thorax need 2 skills at level 5 (hull upgrades and drones) and a few level 4 (frig, ab, navigation, stuffs like that). to fit a mwd t1 you need 1 more rcu t2 & 1 rcu t1, you lose about 40% damage plus you end up with a setup that can't fight anything else at any range, or close to that.
As long as the right conclusion is made on the basis of the right experiment, i'm all for it. Now, i have no idea how to do that, the number of parameters, tactical decisions, and other factors involved (gank > tank when no plate involved, starting distance > 20 km = warp out, difference in skill...) is simply enormous. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:36:00 -
[535]You know, mediums drones would be twice as fast, and bringing the drones into range is about as fast when mwd'ing. Besides, i believe that this very specific case would be yet another example of gank > tank when there is no plate involved, which isn't surprizing to me. Finally, in this example, the t2 rupture has more than 6 months of training, can't tank, has two empty high (i need confirmation on this), still aweful tracking... The thorax need 2 skills at level 5 (hull upgrades and drones) and a few level 4 (frig, ab, navigation, stuffs like that). to fit a mwd t1 you need 1 more rcu t2 & 1 rcu t1, you lose about 40% damage plus you end up with a setup that can't fight anything else at any range, or close to that.
As long as the right conclusion is made on the basis of the right experiment, i'm all for it. Now, i have no idea how to do that, the number of parameters, tactical decisions, and other factors involved (gank > tank when no plate involved, starting distance > 20 km = warp out, difference in skill...) is simply enormous. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:42:00 -
[536] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 20:42:52 Rack of 750 is a deadweight because they take all possible grid, have low dps compared to other med guns and can't track a moon. Rupture with 750s will be dead to ceptor, af, you name it. While still wont be able to engage bs properly due to tracking at close ranges and bs fire at long ranges. On the other hand standard thorax is able to engage anytyhing fast and small with best frig long range guns, can attack anyhing bigger and slower with drones for dps close to full rupture gun rack, have 4-5 times of rupture armor and mwd to with a bonus to cap for dictating distance. Yes you can take out thorax with a specific setup, but its not a SISI BF1, you can fly a ship which can be good against anything or good again 1 cruiser. What your choice would be? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:42:00 -
[537] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 20:42:52 Rack of 750 is a deadweight because they take all possible grid, have low dps compared to other med guns and can't track a moon. Rupture with 750s will be dead to ceptor, af, you name it. While still wont be able to engage bs properly due to tracking at close ranges and bs fire at long ranges. On the other hand standard thorax is able to engage anytyhing fast and small with best frig long range guns, can attack anyhing bigger and slower with drones for dps close to full rupture gun rack, have 4-5 times of rupture armor and mwd to with a bonus to cap for dictating distance. Yes you can take out thorax with a specific setup, but its not a SISI BF1, you can fly a ship which can be good against anything or good again 1 cruiser. What your choice would be? |
Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:49:00 -
[538] I didn't read all the thread, but arn't Gallente supposed to use drones as their thing!!! And as for a rax taking out a bs. Only if the bs pilot is hopeless. |
 Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:49:00 -
[539] I didn't read all the thread, but arn't Gallente supposed to use drones as their thing!!! And as for a rax taking out a bs. Only if the bs pilot is hopeless. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:51:00 -
[540]
Seems like I also have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:51:00 -
[541]
Seems like I also have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:57:00 -
[542] Just saying dude some of you tossers will whine about anything. Get a life. |
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:57:00 -
[543] Just saying dude some of you tossers will whine about anything. Get a life. |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 21:15:00 -
[544]
True true - I was mostly trying to poke holes in the large scale dps numbers, which as far as I know would only be true with ogres deployed when right on top of the enemy. I don't dispute the rax is mean -- but its also the most expensive cruiser to purchase and its main weapons are out there waiting to be destroyed. Further, noone should be pounding on the thorax before they kill its drones - I think thats one of the things that eludes these formulatic methods of looking at the situation. At the end of the day I want to ensure that there is a truly viable drone platform out there under the HAC/BS level. Its why I originally said to shift it to the Brutix - but DrunkenOne asserts its the best BC going, and I defer to his knowing wtf - even if it looks gimped from the angle I see it from. The Vexor? Its a tier II cruiser, so mebbe if it was moved to tier III...I don't know. Making drones cost grid, or cap? Hehe, cans of worms. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 21:15:00 -
[545]
True true - I was mostly trying to poke holes in the large scale dps numbers, which as far as I know would only be true with ogres deployed when right on top of the enemy. I don't dispute the rax is mean -- but its also the most expensive cruiser to purchase and its main weapons are out there waiting to be destroyed. Further, noone should be pounding on the thorax before they kill its drones - I think thats one of the things that eludes these formulatic methods of looking at the situation. At the end of the day I want to ensure that there is a truly viable drone platform out there under the HAC/BS level. Its why I originally said to shift it to the Brutix - but DrunkenOne asserts its the best BC going, and I defer to his knowing wtf - even if it looks gimped from the angle I see it from. The Vexor? Its a tier II cruiser, so mebbe if it was moved to tier III...I don't know. Making drones cost grid, or cap? Hehe, cans of worms. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:46:00 -
[546]
This thread isn't a whine... your post is... however I think Naughty has proven his preliminary case and given CCP relevant terms to look into this subject. Not only has the opposing voice in this thread not looked at concrete eveidence but is basing his motives on the description of the ship. Something has to be done to take either take 8 heavies out of the Rax's portfolio OR it needs to loose some turret points. You can't have both. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:46:00 -
[547]
This thread isn't a whine... your post is... however I think Naughty has proven his preliminary case and given CCP relevant terms to look into this subject. Not only has the opposing voice in this thread not looked at concrete eveidence but is basing his motives on the description of the ship. Something has to be done to take either take 8 heavies out of the Rax's portfolio OR it needs to loose some turret points. You can't have both. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:57:00 -
[548]
Wrong. The "ship description" was merely to refute this incredible idea that the Vexor is a "drone boat." I have no idea where that notion came from. It was given a drone bonus to beef it up back when cruisers got a second bonus. That didn't make it the primary drone boat, that merely brought it into the realm of "useful." The heart of my argument actually just took place when somebody mentioned that they can get 200dps with their rupture. My point is that the rupture (and any other cruiser) can begin doing that damage immediately. Heavy drones moving at 700-1000m/s have to wait a good 20 seconds or longer to begin doing their damage. Which is why the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser...it has less time to do that damage in. It's already well into armor by the time it starts doing damage. As a footnote to that...I also feel that 1600mm plate is inappropriate for cruisers. I also admit that 1600mm plate gives the thorax the biggest advantage...because a thorax doesn't have to give up its primary weapon (drones) to utilize said durability but every other cruiser has to give up their turrets or missiles to use it. Bottom line? Thorax without a 1600mm plate is balanced. It can do faster damage than any other cruiser...but it has less of a window to do that damage it. It's already half-dead by the time it begins doing damage. Leave the drone bay be, sort out the 1600mm plate. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:57:00 -
[549]
Wrong. The "ship description" was merely to refute this incredible idea that the Vexor is a "drone boat." I have no idea where that notion came from. It was given a drone bonus to beef it up back when cruisers got a second bonus. That didn't make it the primary drone boat, that merely brought it into the realm of "useful." The heart of my argument actually just took place when somebody mentioned that they can get 200dps with their rupture. My point is that the rupture (and any other cruiser) can begin doing that damage immediately. Heavy drones moving at 700-1000m/s have to wait a good 20 seconds or longer to begin doing their damage. Which is why the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser...it has less time to do that damage in. It's already well into armor by the time it starts doing damage. As a footnote to that...I also feel that 1600mm plate is inappropriate for cruisers. I also admit that 1600mm plate gives the thorax the biggest advantage...because a thorax doesn't have to give up its primary weapon (drones) to utilize said durability but every other cruiser has to give up their turrets or missiles to use it. Bottom line? Thorax without a 1600mm plate is balanced. It can do faster damage than any other cruiser...but it has less of a window to do that damage it. It's already half-dead by the time it begins doing damage. Leave the drone bay be, sort out the 1600mm plate. |
Alexis Ayala |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:06:00 -
[550] Can't we all just be friends? ~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~ Doctor Alexis Ayala GHINC - Gallente Horizons Incorporated |
 Alexis Ayala Gallente Gallente Horizons Incorporated |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:06:00 -
[551] Can't we all just be friends? ~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~ Doctor Alexis Ayala GHINC - Gallente Horizons Incorporated |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:11:00 -
[552] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 23:11:05
Man you can't be that s.... Rupture fits for damage and get 200 dps "instant" damage, and that' it. Thorax with NOTHING fitted has 170dps. And 5 guns on top of that. How could you not understand it?!! Thorax fittted the way rupture is will do 200 dps at the ranges of rupture with no problem. PLUS the drones. PLUS THE DRONES is the problem, not a thorax as a ship. What else can you say to make it clear? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:11:00 -
[553] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 23:11:05
Man you can't be that s.... Rupture fits for damage and get 200 dps "instant" damage, and that' it. Thorax with NOTHING fitted has 170dps. And 5 guns on top of that. How could you not understand it?!! Thorax fittted the way rupture is will do 200 dps at the ranges of rupture with no problem. PLUS the drones. PLUS THE DRONES is the problem, not a thorax as a ship. What else can you say to make it clear? |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:19:00 -
[554]
Not sure who this lone opposing voice is...seems like there are many who support leaving the thorax as it is. Ignoring trolls is always a good idear. My frank opinion is that people look at the drone II's in the item database and get angry about the thorax because of perceived potential of the boats. That and plates have upped their role, but that is true across the board for cruisers. How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones? I'd think a plate maller would have similar options, but could keep closer in. The Moa, thats another story - as it suffers from recent missile issues and lack of armor tanking goodness with the plates. But 1v1, does the rupture and maller get waxed - consistently, by the thorax? *shrug* |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:19:00 -
[555]
Not sure who this lone opposing voice is...seems like there are many who support leaving the thorax as it is. Ignoring trolls is always a good idear. My frank opinion is that people look at the drone II's in the item database and get angry about the thorax because of perceived potential of the boats. That and plates have upped their role, but that is true across the board for cruisers. How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones? I'd think a plate maller would have similar options, but could keep closer in. The Moa, thats another story - as it suffers from recent missile issues and lack of armor tanking goodness with the plates. But 1v1, does the rupture and maller get waxed - consistently, by the thorax? *shrug* --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:25:00 -
[556] "How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones?" Why would the Thorax pilot give opponent chance of free pot shots at their drones in the first place, by deploying them before they have the target within suitable range and their speed under control..? (i guess unless they're afraid of EW, but then it's not exactly something to be afraid from Rupture, is it... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:25:00 -
[557] "How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones?" Why would the Thorax pilot give opponent chance of free pot shots at their drones in the first place, by deploying them before they have the target within suitable range and their speed under control..? (i guess unless they're afraid of EW, but then it's not exactly something to be afraid from Rupture, is it... |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[558]
This number is greatly inflated real world, as I noted in earlier arguments. It is also counterable. Here is perhaps a difference between us. I have no qualms with the Thorax being a bit better ship than some of the other tier 3 cruisers. It has a higher base price. The question is, how *much* better is it really? If it is enough that people have no use to fly the other tier 3 cruises, then I'm all for swinging the nerf bat. If however, it is knee jerk, percieved ultra-superiority based on the item database and not real world usage - then I think it should be left the heck alone. Take plates out of the sitch. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[559] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 23:30:10
To be honest, I'm not sure a thorax can be fitted to do 200dps at the ranges of a rupture. It's just not designed to have that kind of damage at that kind of range. If you're talking about trying to go toe-to-toe with 720s using 200mm rails, the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrive. As for "not understanding..." I don't see how I'm not getting across my point that the thorax will be under fire for a good long time before it can deal damage. 170dps drones doesn't mean anything for at least 20 seconds. 20 seconds of taking fire without being able to return it. Even assuming you're only being hit for 120 dps in the mean time, (a more reasonable number than 200dps perhaps?) you're going to be in really bad shape when you finally open fire. You HAVE to be able to do far superior DoT to be able to compete at that point. You guys are hung up on this static dps stuff. You're not taking into account the tactical dynamic of it all. MWD-ing thorax gets hit for lots of damage. Slow moving drones don't just magically start doing that 170 dps. In fact, any cruiser with an mwd will beat a blaster-rax...just out distance the drones and blasters. Because all of the thoraxes weapons are short range, the cruiser is impervious to fire, large sig-radius notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the thorax is trying to cover ground whilst taking a beating. A caracal with mwd and cap booster should beat a thorax every time. An mwd-ing vexor with a cap booster could probably do it as well. Not to mention a rupture, a bellicose, a stabber, an omen, whatever. The drones will not be able to keep pace, and the blasters won't be able to take advantage of the opposing cruiser's large sig radius. I can keep throwing out examples. I can keep re-wording it. And I can keep on being ignored, I guess. The thorax is a high risk ship. Without a plate, it depends on starting an engagement from a very short range, and praying that its target is not fast. Taking away the plate will square everything away. Taking away the drones will only perpetuate the circle of nerf, as another cruiser (likely the maller) steps up as massively superior to other cruisers. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[560]
This number is greatly inflated real world, as I noted in earlier arguments. It is also counterable. Here is perhaps a difference between us. I have no qualms with the Thorax being a bit better ship than some of the other tier 3 cruisers. It has a higher base price. The question is, how *much* better is it really? If it is enough that people have no use to fly the other tier 3 cruises, then I'm all for swinging the nerf bat. If however, it is knee jerk, percieved ultra-superiority based on the item database and not real world usage - then I think it should be left the heck alone. Take plates out of the sitch. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[561] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 23:30:10
To be honest, I'm not sure a thorax can be fitted to do 200dps at the ranges of a rupture. It's just not designed to have that kind of damage at that kind of range. If you're talking about trying to go toe-to-toe with 720s using 200mm rails, the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrive. As for "not understanding..." I don't see how I'm not getting across my point that the thorax will be under fire for a good long time before it can deal damage. 170dps drones doesn't mean anything for at least 20 seconds. 20 seconds of taking fire without being able to return it. Even assuming you're only being hit for 120 dps in the mean time, (a more reasonable number than 200dps perhaps?) you're going to be in really bad shape when you finally open fire. You HAVE to be able to do far superior DoT to be able to compete at that point. You guys are hung up on this static dps stuff. You're not taking into account the tactical dynamic of it all. MWD-ing thorax gets hit for lots of damage. Slow moving drones don't just magically start doing that 170 dps. In fact, any cruiser with an mwd will beat a blaster-rax...just out distance the drones and blasters. Because all of the thoraxes weapons are short range, the cruiser is impervious to fire, large sig-radius notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the thorax is trying to cover ground whilst taking a beating. A caracal with mwd and cap booster should beat a thorax every time. An mwd-ing vexor with a cap booster could probably do it as well. Not to mention a rupture, a bellicose, a stabber, an omen, whatever. The drones will not be able to keep pace, and the blasters won't be able to take advantage of the opposing cruiser's large sig radius. I can keep throwing out examples. I can keep re-wording it. And I can keep on being ignored, I guess. The thorax is a high risk ship. Without a plate, it depends on starting an engagement from a very short range, and praying that its target is not fast. Taking away the plate will square everything away. Taking away the drones will only perpetuate the circle of nerf, as another cruiser (likely the maller) steps up as massively superior to other cruisers. |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:34:00 -
[562]
True... Though if that is the case the rupture does have a higher base speed than the thorax...and while the thorax gets the mwd bennie, the rupture's guns use virtually no cap. Still comes down to keep range on the target, for that particular match up it seems to me. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:34:00 -
[563]
True... Though if that is the case the rupture does have a higher base speed than the thorax...and while the thorax gets the mwd bennie, the rupture's guns use virtually no cap. Still comes down to keep range on the target, for that particular match up it seems to me. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:56:00 -
[564] So now suddenly 5x250mm rails and 5% damage bonus are somehow not enough to match the rupture 4x720s +5% rof +%5 damage? At 20km range? Thats kinda news for me. And its like what? 10% of a rupture firepower? 25% maybe? Because even HALF of drones dps will be around 100dps, so i think if you outgun poor rax with 200 dps TOTAL, then I have to have like 50 dps on my rails or something? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:56:00 -
[565] So now suddenly 5x250mm rails and 5% damage bonus are somehow not enough to match the rupture 4x720s +5% rof +%5 damage? At 20km range? Thats kinda news for me. And its like what? 10% of a rupture firepower? 25% maybe? Because even HALF of drones dps will be around 100dps, so i think if you outgun poor rax with 200 dps TOTAL, then I have to have like 50 dps on my rails or something? |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:27:00 -
[566]
250 IIs = rate of fire 6.38, activation cost 10 720 IIs = rate of fire 15.75 sec, activation cost 1 In other words, the rails use up cap at around 30 times what the arty does. If both ships gain at around 2.8 energy per second, it would take what - six minutes of a fight and the thorax couldn't shoot. This assumes no tanking or whatnot, as fitting 5 med rails would prohibit that. All of which is moot though, people don't generally fit such a setup on a thorax in my experience. They fit small guns and tank, so at 20km you are dancing on them or they are warping out. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:27:00 -
[567]
250 IIs = rate of fire 6.38, activation cost 10 720 IIs = rate of fire 15.75 sec, activation cost 1 In other words, the rails use up cap at around 30 times what the arty does. If both ships gain at around 2.8 energy per second, it would take what - six minutes of a fight and the thorax couldn't shoot. This assumes no tanking or whatnot, as fitting 5 med rails would prohibit that. All of which is moot though, people don't generally fit such a setup on a thorax in my experience. They fit small guns and tank, so at 20km you are dancing on them or they are warping out. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:57:00 -
[568] Now you are outcaping thorax? Sure, hold its fire for just 6 minutes and the guns out of cap? LOLHaving 50 dps for 100 seconds will deal 5k damage on your rupture. For sake of argument thorax has only 1/2 of cap already which is 500 before any skills. Using 10 cap per second with no recharge at all you can fire for 50 seconds which is 2.5k damage.... 50 dps I can shoot irons from fig guns, please man, dont be silly on public. 6 minutes... in 6 minutes a velator will kill you. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:57:00 -
[569] Now you are outcaping thorax? Sure, hold its fire for just 6 minutes and the guns out of cap? LOLHaving 50 dps for 100 seconds will deal 5k damage on your rupture. For sake of argument thorax has only 1/2 of cap already which is 500 before any skills. Using 10 cap per second with no recharge at all you can fire for 50 seconds which is 2.5k damage.... 50 dps I can shoot irons from fig guns, please man, dont be silly on public. 6 minutes... in 6 minutes a velator will kill you. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:01:00 -
[570]
A question of fitting. Thorax has to spend more low slots (and cpu) on grid upgrades (1000 grid consumption from the rupture weapons, 1125 from the thorax weapons, and the rupture has a 25 grid head start.) This leaves the rupture with low slots for damage mods and perhaps even cpu left over for tracking comps. It's bad mojo for a thorax to be sitting around trading blows with a rupture like that. Assuming no tank for either, the rupture can put out enough damage at that range to splash the thorax before the drones become a factor in the dps of the thorax. An mwd with at least moderate tank (explosive hardener and medium armor repairer) to counter the added damage that the mwd will bring is preferable to just sitting in optimal of a rupture. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:01:00 -
[571]
A question of fitting. Thorax has to spend more low slots (and cpu) on grid upgrades (1000 grid consumption from the rupture weapons, 1125 from the thorax weapons, and the rupture has a 25 grid head start.) This leaves the rupture with low slots for damage mods and perhaps even cpu left over for tracking comps. It's bad mojo for a thorax to be sitting around trading blows with a rupture like that. Assuming no tank for either, the rupture can put out enough damage at that range to splash the thorax before the drones become a factor in the dps of the thorax. An mwd with at least moderate tank (explosive hardener and medium armor repairer) to counter the added damage that the mwd will bring is preferable to just sitting in optimal of a rupture. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:44:00 -
[572] Man, you just can't admit the obvious. Thorax at any given fitting or situation has EXTRA weapon which doubles the dps It can fit 200mm and avoid fitting problems, it can fit just 150mm II and be very good AT EVERYING, any enemy any situation. What can your rupture do? Close range you can't track, long range bs will own you. Ceptors comes, you r dead, bs comes you dont have tank, pathetic HP, still low dps total. You dont have any real options to fit because you need your gun bonuses badly. Thorax can fit anything, med blasters, frig blasters, frig rails, frig med beams, med rails... noses for crying out loud. I mean you can fit dozens of setup and be good because you always have your main weapon - drones. Thorax outdamages deimos. Can you imagine rupture outdamaging munin AT ANY SETUP or skills? There is no point to argue about it. Thorax is not a vexor to count drones vs other cruiser guns, its a best gallente gunship, best slots, best fitting PLUS full set of bs weapon - heavy drones. If you still can't comprehend it, its like a rupture and a vexor with it under one command. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:44:00 -
[573] Man, you just can't admit the obvious. Thorax at any given fitting or situation has EXTRA weapon which doubles the dps It can fit 200mm and avoid fitting problems, it can fit just 150mm II and be very good AT EVERYING, any enemy any situation. What can your rupture do? Close range you can't track, long range bs will own you. Ceptors comes, you r dead, bs comes you dont have tank, pathetic HP, still low dps total. You dont have any real options to fit because you need your gun bonuses badly. Thorax can fit anything, med blasters, frig blasters, frig rails, frig med beams, med rails... noses for crying out loud. I mean you can fit dozens of setup and be good because you always have your main weapon - drones. Thorax outdamages deimos. Can you imagine rupture outdamaging munin AT ANY SETUP or skills? There is no point to argue about it. Thorax is not a vexor to count drones vs other cruiser guns, its a best gallente gunship, best slots, best fitting PLUS full set of bs weapon - heavy drones. If you still can't comprehend it, its like a rupture and a vexor with it under one command. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:57:00 -
[574]
You've not convinced me that an un-plated thorax is overpowered, is all. I still maintain that it needs its killer DoT to make up for damage it's taking well before it can start dealing it. Of course, you don't have to convince me...you have to convince CCP. I'm just providing a counterpoint from a long-time thorax pilot. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:57:00 -
[575]
You've not convinced me that an un-plated thorax is overpowered, is all. I still maintain that it needs its killer DoT to make up for damage it's taking well before it can start dealing it. Of course, you don't have to convince me...you have to convince CCP. I'm just providing a counterpoint from a long-time thorax pilot. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:11:00 -
[576] If you can understand that 1+1 is > then 1, then i duno. Thorax has similar fitting, bonus to damage and slots as rupture. 250 mm rails are decent long range cruiser guns. They fit hard. but 720s fit hard 2. 200mm rails still have good range, use bonus, fit better, 650s same. 5 + 1 bonus is = as 4 + 2 bonuses. 720s norm damage is 0.36, 200mm norm is 0.41, which is outdamaging for 14% for rails. 5x200mm fit, have 18km opt, 10km fall = ability to engage at 20-30km. How is rupture ANY really that better? All depends on pilots and situation. BUT on top of that thorax has 170 dps, which can DOUBLE the damage at close range. Can rupture fit 8 autos for close range? No it cant. Thorax can go for full tank. Still having close range damage of comparable with rupture. Thorax can fit small guns and be able to have both close range damage and ability to blow up small target like nothing. Can rupture fit 4 vulcans and 4 280s at the same time? No. Can rupture fit ANYTHING but med projectiles? No, because wihtout 2 bonuses to guns its nothing. Can thorax fight and win with only drones - yes it can? What we will have EXTRA? Full slots and fitting for ANYTHING. You dont really get it, do you? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:11:00 -
[577] If you can understand that 1+1 is > then 1, then i duno. Thorax has similar fitting, bonus to damage and slots as rupture. 250 mm rails are decent long range cruiser guns. They fit hard. but 720s fit hard 2. 200mm rails still have good range, use bonus, fit better, 650s same. 5 + 1 bonus is = as 4 + 2 bonuses. 720s norm damage is 0.36, 200mm norm is 0.41, which is outdamaging for 14% for rails. 5x200mm fit, have 18km opt, 10km fall = ability to engage at 20-30km. How is rupture ANY really that better? All depends on pilots and situation. BUT on top of that thorax has 170 dps, which can DOUBLE the damage at close range. Can rupture fit 8 autos for close range? No it cant. Thorax can go for full tank. Still having close range damage of comparable with rupture. Thorax can fit small guns and be able to have both close range damage and ability to blow up small target like nothing. Can rupture fit 4 vulcans and 4 280s at the same time? No. Can rupture fit ANYTHING but med projectiles? No, because wihtout 2 bonuses to guns its nothing. Can thorax fight and win with only drones - yes it can? What we will have EXTRA? Full slots and fitting for ANYTHING. You dont really get it, do you? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:29:00 -
[578] There's a reason why, even before the plate issue, thorax pilots didn't go for distance setups. It's hard to fit, doesn't work as well as with other cruisers, and combat will almost invariably be decided before drones even become a factor. (Bigger guns and no tank = very brief combat...usually in favor of the long distance suited ships.) Why fight a style that denies you the advantage of your drones? That said, even an mwd setup does take considerable damage before the drones and blasters get in range to do any damage in return. However, this is what the thorax was designed for, and it does this much better than duking it out at range. Other than that? No, I don't get it. Not at all. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:29:00 -
[579] There's a reason why, even before the plate issue, thorax pilots didn't go for distance setups. It's hard to fit, doesn't work as well as with other cruisers, and combat will almost invariably be decided before drones even become a factor. (Bigger guns and no tank = very brief combat...usually in favor of the long distance suited ships.) Why fight a style that denies you the advantage of your drones? That said, even an mwd setup does take considerable damage before the drones and blasters get in range to do any damage in return. However, this is what the thorax was designed for, and it does this much better than duking it out at range. Other than that? No, I don't get it. Not at all. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:37:00 -
[580] Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:37:00 -
[581] Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus
|
Idio T |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:41:00 -
[582] I two box a Minmatar. He flies a Belliclose , that gives a %5 med projectile and %10 to distance to turret range. (Excellent bombardment damage.. a real "blast" to play.) I fly a Thorax. PvP close range, the Thorax dominates, long range, I'm practically before I can get a lock. I'd be the last to be confrontational about this issue, and the last to say that I know everything, but I'd also be the last to say that being able to hold 8 Ogres makes you king of the hill. |
 Idio T Sebum Primani |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:41:00 -
[583] I two box a Minmatar. He flies a Belliclose , that gives a %5 med projectile and %10 to distance to turret range. (Excellent bombardment damage.. a real "blast" to play.) I fly a Thorax. PvP close range, the Thorax dominates, long range, I'm practically before I can get a lock. I'd be the last to be confrontational about this issue, and the last to say that I know everything, but I'd also be the last to say that being able to hold 8 Ogres makes you king of the hill. |
Sorja |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:48:00 -
[584]
I friendly disagree with this. You can't change game mechanics without rebalancing the foundation of combat (ships). Look at what happened to Caldari ships, and tell me a serious overhaul of ship layouts isn't needed? You think it's a huge task? It's not trivial, granted. But it's needed. It has already been announced (am I correct?) that T1 frigs will soon get an overhaul to make them more useful, why not for cruisers? They got a boost with last patch, that's why people are talking again about cruisers, because they are fun to fly and generally cheap, which makes them good choices for PvPers who like to do 'crazy things' that they can't afford in HACs or other techII ships. I for one would like to see a further overhaul of cruisers than frigates. Kill mails |
 Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:48:00 -
[585]
I friendly disagree with this. You can't change game mechanics without rebalancing the foundation of combat (ships). Look at what happened to Caldari ships, and tell me a serious overhaul of ship layouts isn't needed? You think it's a huge task? It's not trivial, granted. But it's needed. It has already been announced (am I correct?) that T1 frigs will soon get an overhaul to make them more useful, why not for cruisers? They got a boost with last patch, that's why people are talking again about cruisers, because they are fun to fly and generally cheap, which makes them good choices for PvPers who like to do 'crazy things' that they can't afford in HACs or other techII ships. I for one would like to see a further overhaul of cruisers than frigates. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 04:49:00 -
[586]
Yeah, hehe. Would you be happy if the vexor and thorax's bay were swapped? |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 04:49:00 -
[587]
Yeah, hehe. Would you be happy if the vexor and thorax's bay were swapped? --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:18:00 -
[588]
Seriously watch the vid people. If Thorax is indeed a drone ship,then what's the domi being plastered in the vid?Isn't the domi a better drone ship? Cruiser packs killing BS's IF they get under their guns is ok.Frigs,A LOT of frigs,killings BS's is also ok.Tech2 frigs may even kill lone BS's in squads as small as 3-4,due to their t2 guns.But t1 cruisers regularly killing t2 cruisers is not ok (emphasis on "regularly").Can the rifter beat a taranis?Can the incursus beat the wolf?Only if the tech2 pilot has very low SP in general skills (fitting,cap,etc)and not a clue what he's doing.But obviously,a rax can kill a tech2 cruiser with so much ease that it's an outright disgrace.It even outdamages its own tech2 variant for crying out loud.Might as well swap the ships around and make the rax a HAC and the deimos a t1 cruiser. As for the "getting into range" argument,if you watch the movie,you'll see Chris is packing small blasters,which means even less range than small rails.He has no prob killing the zealot though,even while MWD'ing to it from 27km out,and deploys his drones a little more than 15km away from the target.By the time the zealot locks him,he's already close enough,thanks to the MWD,and with plenty of cap to spare,thanks to the ship's bonus.Look at his armor at that point,take note of the overall length of the engagement and tell me if the zealot could target and kill 8 heavy drones in that timeframe. Watch the movie people,and let's talk about it again later. |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:18:00 -
[589]
Seriously watch the vid people. If Thorax is indeed a drone ship,then what's the domi being plastered in the vid?Isn't the domi a better drone ship? Cruiser packs killing BS's IF they get under their guns is ok.Frigs,A LOT of frigs,killings BS's is also ok.Tech2 frigs may even kill lone BS's in squads as small as 3-4,due to their t2 guns.But t1 cruisers regularly killing t2 cruisers is not ok (emphasis on "regularly").Can the rifter beat a taranis?Can the incursus beat the wolf?Only if the tech2 pilot has very low SP in general skills (fitting,cap,etc)and not a clue what he's doing.But obviously,a rax can kill a tech2 cruiser with so much ease that it's an outright disgrace.It even outdamages its own tech2 variant for crying out loud.Might as well swap the ships around and make the rax a HAC and the deimos a t1 cruiser. As for the "getting into range" argument,if you watch the movie,you'll see Chris is packing small blasters,which means even less range than small rails.He has no prob killing the zealot though,even while MWD'ing to it from 27km out,and deploys his drones a little more than 15km away from the target.By the time the zealot locks him,he's already close enough,thanks to the MWD,and with plenty of cap to spare,thanks to the ship's bonus.Look at his armor at that point,take note of the overall length of the engagement and tell me if the zealot could target and kill 8 heavy drones in that timeframe. Watch the movie people,and let's talk about it again later. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:38:00 -
[590]
Truth. Which I'll wager more or less happened here.
It out-damages the Deimos if it has all damage mods. In which case it dies real quick. To any heavy assault ship.
You missed the better part of the thread where I outlined that the plate is what makes the thorax overpowered. Also, I noticed the better part of those engagements started within 20km...which is ideal for a thorax. That's like complaining that a tempest killed you at 100km so it must be overpowered. Your video proves the case that a 1600mm plate is overpowered. It does not prove that the drones are what accomplish this. Being able to add...what, 3300 points of armor with a rolled tungsten is HUGE for a thorax, because it doesn't have to sacrifice it's primary firepower...the drones...to take advantage of the added durability. Other cruisers have to sacrifice their guns for said durability, which is why the thorax dominates. Take away the (rediculous) option to fit 1600mm plate on a cruiser, and the situation blances out real quick. Yes, it will still have greater firepower, but as I've outlined again and again it's quite fragile. I still maintain that a non-plated thorax is not overpowered. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:38:00 -
[591]
Truth. Which I'll wager more or less happened here.
It out-damages the Deimos if it has all damage mods. In which case it dies real quick. To any heavy assault ship.
You missed the better part of the thread where I outlined that the plate is what makes the thorax overpowered. Also, I noticed the better part of those engagements started within 20km...which is ideal for a thorax. That's like complaining that a tempest killed you at 100km so it must be overpowered. Your video proves the case that a 1600mm plate is overpowered. It does not prove that the drones are what accomplish this. Being able to add...what, 3300 points of armor with a rolled tungsten is HUGE for a thorax, because it doesn't have to sacrifice it's primary firepower...the drones...to take advantage of the added durability. Other cruisers have to sacrifice their guns for said durability, which is why the thorax dominates. Take away the (rediculous) option to fit 1600mm plate on a cruiser, and the situation blances out real quick. Yes, it will still have greater firepower, but as I've outlined again and again it's quite fragile. I still maintain that a non-plated thorax is not overpowered. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:41:00 -
[592] The Thorax pilot would be toast without his plates before he managed to get within blaster range. Without the plates, the thorax is a high risk hihg payoff machine, it's quite fragile. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:41:00 -
[593] The Thorax pilot would be toast without his plates before he managed to get within blaster range. Without the plates, the thorax is a high risk hihg payoff machine, it's quite fragile. |
Idio T |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:44:00 -
[594]
Fun Vid ! loved it. I see a great pilot in a decent ship. Not the other way around though. |
Idio T Sebum Primani |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:44:00 -
[595]
Fun Vid ! loved it. I see a great pilot in a decent ship. Not the other way around though. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:57:00 -
[596]
They need it in my humble opinion too. I have a lot of answers to what was written since my last post, but have absolutely no time to do so now. The main idea is still that the "awesomeness" of the drones rules out other close range cruisers and that once the thorax is at close range of a long range cruiser, it doesn't need all its drones as it is already "under the guns". That, in my book, is a reason why we don't see (other) cruisers. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:57:00 -
[597]
They need it in my humble opinion too. I have a lot of answers to what was written since my last post, but have absolutely no time to do so now. The main idea is still that the "awesomeness" of the drones rules out other close range cruisers and that once the thorax is at close range of a long range cruiser, it doesn't need all its drones as it is already "under the guns". That, in my book, is a reason why we don't see (other) cruisers. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 06:06:00 -
[598] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 06:10:30
Dude, check my calculations. A non-plated thorax with hull upgrades 5 facing a full t2 artillery gank rupture with maxed gunnery skills, fitting skills and cruiser skill has 23 seconds (provided that he fitted 2 t2 energized nano membranes or even better, 3 hardeners) to be under the tracking of the rupture, more if he fits a 400mm or 800mm plate and/or use a med armor rep. Any distance above the distance that can be closed during 23s is outside disruptor range, so the thorax can just warp out and warp in closer at will. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 06:06:00 -
[599] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 13:03:05 Edit: Nevermind. In Rust We Trust |
Christopher Multsanti |
Posted - 2005.08.26 06:18:00 -
[600] Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 26/08/2005 06:19:11 I havent read all 12 pages as I have to go to work. But I feel the real power of the Rax lies in it ability to use a 1600 plate and tank like a mofo. Nerf the plate allowing it to only be used by BS, then you would force Rax pilots to fit medium blasters, the way the ship was meant to be fitted. Yes the rax will do excellent damage, buts it supposed to. It just wont be able to tank like a BS anymore. IMO leave the drones nerf the plate. EDIT: oh and thank you for promotion of my vid guys. Thorax FTW! |
 Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.26 06:18:00 -
[601] Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 26/08/2005 06:19:11 I havent read all 12 pages as I have to go to work. But I feel the real power of the Rax lies in it ability to use a 1600 plate and tank like a mofo. Nerf the plate allowing it to only be used by BS, then you would force Rax pilots to fit medium blasters, the way the ship was meant to be fitted. Yes the rax will do excellent damage, buts it supposed to. It just wont be able to tank like a BS anymore. IMO leave the drones nerf the plate. EDIT: oh and thank you for promotion of my vid guys. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it? EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs... |
Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 08:21:00 -
[602] Here's my set up Highs 5 light neutron blasters tech 2 Med 10mn ab tech 2 2x cap recharger tech 2 Low 1600mm crystaline carbide armour Med armour rep tech 2 3x 50% armour hardeners Drone bay with 8 heavy drones Maybe the only thing that is wrong is being able to fit bs armour plates apart from that I think the Rax is fairly balanced. BTW if the rax gets a nerf what will be the next ship that the whiners pick on. |
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.08.26 08:21:00 -
[603] Edited by: Hephaesteus on 26/08/2005 08:33:57 Edited by: Hephaesteus on 26/08/2005 08:33:25 Here's my set up Highs 5 light neutron blasters tech 2 Med 10mn ab tech 2 2x cap recharger tech 2 or webber and scrambler Low 1600mm crystaline carbide armour Med armour rep tech 2 3x 50% armour hardeners Drone bay with 8 heavy drones Maybe the only thing that is wrong is being able to fit bs armour plates apart from that I think the Rax is fairly balanced. BTW if the rax gets a nerf what will be the next ship that the whiners pick on. |
Muad 'dib |
Posted - 2005.08.26 08:49:00 -
[604]
This is EXACTLY what i ment to add to this disscussion, i wasnt trying to compare the Rax to the Rupture in a 1v1. Whiners will not whine more if the rax is nerfed, its unballenced atm and with 1600mm plates being so easy to fit and the raxes mwd bonus; that just adds more 'fuel to the fire'. Anyone know what a rax puts out in DPS from a medium blaster setup, im thinkin about 300, with the 150 odd from drones thats a 450 dps monster - even if it is close range its almost DOUBLE the power of other cruisers, although max dmg isnt really the issue its the almost effortless 'free' dmg. Sure there cant be may 'dont nerf the rax' people left, appart form those who own a researched BPO and have gallante cruiser 5 lol. |
Muad 'dib Caldari Smoking Hillbillys The Volition Cult |
Posted - 2005.08.26 08:49:00 -
[605]
This is EXACTLY what i ment to add to this disscussion, i wasnt trying to compare the Rax to the Rupture in a 1v1. Whiners will not whine more if the rax is nerfed, its unballenced atm and with 1600mm plates being so easy to fit and the raxes mwd bonus; that just adds more 'fuel to the fire'. Anyone know what a rax puts out in DPS from a medium blaster setup, im thinkin about 300, with the 150 odd from drones thats a 450 dps monster - even if it is close range its almost DOUBLE the power of other cruisers, although max dmg isnt really the issue its the almost effortless 'free' dmg. Sure there cant be may 'dont nerf the rax' people left, appart form those who own a researched BPO and have gallante cruiser 5 lol. |
Kye Kenshin |
Posted - 2005.08.26 10:08:00 -
[606] I think im gonna have to side with the nerf the plate people on this one now. I dont want to nerf the rax but i realised it was overpowered somewhere and at first i thought it was the drones. But it isnt its the plate. Even with 4 heavies it will still be overpowered for the sheer fact it can tank like a bs and still deal good dmg. Even if you did nerf the dronebay i would still fly it with a plate and still win. Hell i even killed a few people without drones just because i can out tank them. So the soultion is simple just limit plate's to there proper ship class. |
Kye Kenshin Sanctum's Edge |
Posted - 2005.08.26 10:08:00 -
[607] I think im gonna have to side with the nerf the plate people on this one now. I dont want to nerf the rax but i realised it was overpowered somewhere and at first i thought it was the drones. But it isnt its the plate. Even with 4 heavies it will still be overpowered for the sheer fact it can tank like a bs and still deal good dmg. Even if you did nerf the dronebay i would still fly it with a plate and still win. Hell i even killed a few people without drones just because i can out tank them. So the soultion is simple just limit plate's to there proper ship class. |
Zophi |
Posted - 2005.08.26 10:19:00 -
[608] Edited by: Zophi on 26/08/2005 10:25:07
Well, look REALLY carefully. All those idiots he shots TARGETS HIM(!) not his drones. Look at the Thorax guy fighting the Domi. He takes out the drones first! Thats the way to do it... Simpel case of good pilot killing n00bs... Proves NOTHING! Would only prove something if these guys were putting up a decent fight... --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Zophi TAOSP Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 10:19:00 -
[609] Edited by: Zophi on 26/08/2005 10:25:07
Well, look REALLY carefully. All those idiots he shots TARGETS HIM(!) not his drones. Look at the Thorax guy fighting the Domi. He takes out the drones first! Thats the way to do it... Simpel case of good pilot killing n00bs... Proves NOTHING! Would only prove something if these guys were putting up a decent fight... --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 11:07:00 -
[610] Just saw the vid, nice one. But what were some of those guys doing . |
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.08.26 11:07:00 -
[611] Just saw the vid, nice one. But what were some of those guys doing . |
Deja Thoris |
Posted - 2005.08.26 11:17:00 -
[612]
Screw that. This game is for intelligent people. Dont dumb it down to the morons level. For Christs sake. Ooh, I'm a level 2 goon. If that level one nublet attacks me the outcome is predetermined. Why the hell bother if the outcome is predetermined? |
Deja Thoris Revelations Inc. Shroud Of Darkness |
Posted - 2005.08.26 11:17:00 -
[613]
Screw that. This game is for intelligent people. Dont dumb it down to the morons level. For Christs sake. Ooh, I'm a level 2 goon. If that level one nublet attacks me the outcome is predetermined. Why the hell bother if the outcome is predetermined? |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 12:17:00 -
[614]
Nobody is going to "win" such an argument, because only CCP knows if they want the all cruisers of one race to be different or if they want some cruisers to be cheaper and a less powerfull version of another cruiser. Only 4 cruisers of two races are in the former case though - amarr (maller > omen in about every way) and gallente (thorax > vexor in about every way) - and this seems to me a very good reason to support the idea that CCP wants no cruiser to be totally outclassed by another. People not convinced by this argument cannot expect to convince others with their simply because there is no decisive reason until CCP says what they want. Firstly, I'd like to point out that according to my calculations (which might be wrong) show a top damage/second of 150 dps (artillery setup). That is for a pilot with all relevant skills trained to 5, including fittings skills and including the advanced weapon upgrades skills (give or take one level on this one, depending on what is supposed to be used in 2 high and 3 mids). I do not know how the 200dps figure was obtained. Secondly, long range and short range guns are balanced by damage and by tracking (exception being missiles, not concerned by the problem of tracking). It is very misleading to say that "the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser [because] it has less time to do that damage in." Once the thorax is close enough to mess up the tracking of artillery, the damage of artillery is null and thus irrelevant. If the fight lass 40 seconds, the artillery do damage during the first 20 seconds and the drones do damage during the 20 next seconds, it is simply wrong to say that "it has less time to do that damage in." Including flight time in the damage / time ratio, but not including tracking of gun is in my opinion a biased way of looking at the whole problem. It is also were actual piloting skills are taken into account and thus the outcome of the fight is not solely dictated by ships, skill points and setups. (continued) --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 12:17:00 -
[615] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 12:26:13 I fail once again which reasoning made you come to this conclusion. Especially since you cannot realistically say that the thorax is the only ship likely to be fitted for close range. The thorax is not going to be "half dead" when it start to do damage in a close range duel, yet it has the advantage you describe. How, except the fact that it is an inferior tier cruiser (which is bad reason to me), do you expect to "boost the damage" of the stabber so that it stand a decent chance, or at least a chance, against a thorax in a world were there is no oversized plate. Currently, it is the oversized plate that allows AC rupture and medium-pulse maller to be a challenge to the thorax. Without the plate, those ships cannot tank the drones long enough to kill them and are a bigger disadvantage against the thorax than they are when oversized plates are allowed. No non-plated close range ship can tank for any amount of time the drones of a thorax, especially since they they have to get close themselves. The delay of damage due to drones flight is very small in a close range duel. Finally, the current drone bays allow the thorax not to use blasters specifically (for various reasons already mentionned many times) and thus, the ability to keep the enemy at your short-range optimal but not at his short-range optimal - by webbing, ab'ing, mwd'ing) that is specifically deciding the outcome of a close range duel between pulse/autocannon/blasters is not important for the thorax, as the drones will get at their optimal within seconds. During all the close range duel, the thorax will out-tank and out-damage any close range cruiser. I am totally convinced that the thorax, being the highest tier gallente cruiser, should be the king of close-range combat. I however, do not agree that his superior tank + damage rules out totally every close range cruisers from the game. If i may compare this to another situation we know, it is totally similar of what was said by blasterthron pilots in regard to ravens before the patch that "fixed" missiles. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 12:17:00 -
[616] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 12:39:48
Nobody is going to "win" such an argument, because only CCP knows if they want the all cruisers of one race to be different or if they want some cruisers to be cheaper and a less powerfull version of another cruiser. Only 4 cruisers of two races are in the former case though - amarr (maller > omen in about every way) and gallente (thorax > vexor in about every way) - and this seems to me a very good reason to support the idea that CCP wants no cruiser to be totally outclassed by another. People not convinced by this argument cannot expect to convince others with their simply because there is no decisive reason until CCP says what they want. Firstly, my last calculations about the dps of a rupture were wrong as i totally forgot to include the effect of damage mods. I am sorry about that and will repost a corrected version. Secondly, long range and short range guns are balanced by damage and by tracking (exception being missiles, not concerned by the problem of tracking). It is very misleading to say that "the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser [because] it has less time to do that damage in." Once the thorax is close enough to mess up the tracking of artillery, the damage of artillery is null and thus irrelevant. If the fight lass 40 seconds, the artillery do damage during the first 20 seconds and the drones do damage during the 20 next seconds, it is simply wrong to say that "it has less time to do that damage in." Including flight time in the damage / time ratio, but not including tracking of gun is in my opinion a biased way of looking at the whole problem. It is also were actual piloting skills are taken into account and thus the outcome of the fight is not solely dictated by ships, skill points and setups. (continued) In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 12:17:00 -
[617] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 12:31:14 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 12:30:21 I fail once again to understand which reasoning made you come to this conclusion. Especially since you cannot realistically say that the thorax is the only ship likely to be fitted for close range. The thorax is not going to be "half dead" when it start to do damage in a close range duel, yet it has the advantage you describe. How, except the fact that it is an inferior tier cruiser (which is bad reason to me), do you expect to "boost the damage" of the stabber so that it stand a decent chance, or at least a chance, against a thorax in a world were there is no oversized plate. Currently, it is the oversized plate that allows AC rupture and medium-pulse maller to be a challenge to the thorax. Without the plate, those ships cannot tank the drones long enough to kill them and are at a bigger disadvantage against the thorax than they are when oversized plates are allowed. No non-plated close range cruiser can tank for any relevant amount of time the drones of a thorax, especially since they have to get close themselves. The delay of damage due to drones flight is very small in a close range duel. Finally, the current drone bays allow the thorax not to use blasters specifically (for various reasons already mentionned many times) and thus, the ability to keep the enemy at your short-range optimal but not at his short-range optimal - by webbing, ab'ing, mwd'ing) that is specifically deciding the outcome of a close range duel between pulse/autocannon/blasters is not important for the thorax, as the drones will get at their optimal within seconds. During all the close range duel, the thorax will out-tank and out-damage any close range cruiser. I am totally convinced that the thorax, being the highest tier gallente cruiser, should be the king of close-range combat. I however, do not agree that his superior tank + damage rules out totally every close range cruisers from the game. If i may compare this to another situation we know, it is totally similar of what was said by blasterthron pilots in regard to ravens before the patch that "fixed" missiles. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Kye Kenshin |
Posted - 2005.08.26 12:52:00 -
[618] A big problem we have i these problems is no one seems to back up these arguements with in game tests. People just throw random numbers around that qucikly came up with at work and i dont trust it. Eve isnt a pure numbers game there's too many variables in combat to decide an outcome based on pure numbers. So instead of everyone arguing back and forth lets actually test it! How about we test Platerax with 8 heavies Platerax with 4 heavies Platerax with 10 mediums Rax with no plate with 8 heavies At least then we would have something to works with instead of numbers and statistics. P.s i think someone might of suggested this before but i cant be bothered to read through all 12 pages to find out |
Kye Kenshin Sanctum's Edge |
Posted - 2005.08.26 12:52:00 -
[619] A big problem we have i these problems is no one seems to back up these arguements with in game tests. People just throw random numbers around that qucikly came up with at work and i dont trust it. Eve isnt a pure numbers game there's too many variables in combat to decide an outcome based on pure numbers. So instead of everyone arguing back and forth lets actually test it! How about we test Platerax with 8 heavies Platerax with 4 heavies Platerax with 10 mediums Rax with no plate with 8 heavies At least then we would have something to works with instead of numbers and statistics. P.s i think someone might of suggested this before but i cant be bothered to read through all 12 pages to find out |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 13:19:00 -
[620]
Let's to the math about that. As i mentionned above, i totally forgot to include the effect of damage mods into the dps of the gank rupture, showing my 150 dps figure. First approximation of the damage would be 150 dps * 1.79 = 269 dps. The artillery setup of the rupture totally gimped it as it cannot even fit the guns without the advanced weapons upgrade skil trained to a high level. The thorax, fitted in a similar way, would be using 5 * 200mm railguns t2, 4 mag stab t2 and a rcu t2. Please note that this setup is less gimping than the artillery setup of the rupture, since it can be fitted without the advanced weapon upgrade trained and has 1 more gun fitted. To compare the damage without comparing the range, i'll make sure to chose the right ammo for the thorax, so that they have the same optimal. The ammo that should be used for comparison should have a -45% range modifier. Antimatter has -50% and plutonium -37.5%. The logical choice should be to use antimatter as it is closer, however projectile have low optimum and higher falloff so plutonium is probably more justified. damage calculation: thorax = 1.79 (4 damage mod) * 5 (number of guns) * 22 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (hybrid skill) * 2.4 (damage mod) * 1.25 (cruiser skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.15 (surgical strike) / (4.875 (base rof) * 0.75 (rapid firing) * 0.9 (gunnery skill)) = 283 dps. rupture = 1.79 (4 damage mod) * 4 (number of guns) * 22 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (projectile skill) * 6.9 (damage mod) * 1.25 (cruiser skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.15 (surgical strike) / (15.75 (base rof) * 0.75 (cruiser skill to 5) * 0.75 (rapid firing) * 0.9 (gunnery skill)) = 269 dps. As you can see, at the range that was considered in the last calculations i did, with that scenario of a thorax closing on a gank-rupture, the thorax with rail outdamage (by a little margin, but outdamage) the gank rupture (and is easier to fit, and track better, but has a little less falloff to play with). So, if anything, this example didn't show anything about the thorax and his drone bay, just that the manoeuvring in the "gank world" isn't exactly rewarding. So let's me sum this up: the experiment with a thorax trying to catch a long range rupture doesn't prove anything about the thorax needing his drones or not, as the close range thorax would die to a rail-thorax as easily as it would die to an artillery-rupture. This is thus not, in any possible way, a mean to determine if the thorax drone bay is needed or not. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 13:19:00 -
[621]
Let's to the math about that. As i mentionned above, i totally forgot to include the effect of damage mods into the dps of the gank rupture, showing my 150 dps figure. First approximation of the damage would be 150 dps * 1.79 = 269 dps. The artillery setup of the rupture totally gimped it as it cannot even fit the guns without the advanced weapons upgrade skil trained to a high level. The thorax, fitted in a similar way, would be using 5 * 200mm railguns t2, 4 mag stab t2 and a rcu t2. Please note that this setup is less gimping than the artillery setup of the rupture, since it can be fitted without the advanced weapon upgrade trained and has 1 more gun fitted. To compare the damage without comparing the range, i'll make sure to chose the right ammo for the thorax, so that they have the same optimal. The ammo that should be used for comparison should have a -45% range modifier. Antimatter has -50% and plutonium -37.5%. The logical choice should be to use antimatter as it is closer, however projectile have low optimum and higher falloff so plutonium is probably more justified. damage calculation: thorax = 1.79 (4 damage mod) * 5 (number of guns) * 22 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (hybrid skill) * 2.4 (damage mod) * 1.25 (cruiser skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.15 (surgical strike) / (4.875 (base rof) * 0.75 (rapid firing) * 0.9 (gunnery skill)) = 283 dps. rupture = 1.79 (4 damage mod) * 4 (number of guns) * 22 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (projectile skill) * 6.9 (damage mod) * 1.25 (cruiser skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.15 (surgical strike) / (15.75 (base rof) * 0.75 (cruiser skill to 5) * 0.75 (rapid firing) * 0.9 (gunnery skill)) = 269 dps. As you can see, at the range that was considered in the last calculations i did, with that scenario of a thorax closing on a gank-rupture, the thorax with rail outdamage (by a little margin, but outdamage) the gank rupture (and is easier to fit, and track better, but has a little less falloff to play with). So, if anything, this example didn't show anything about the thorax and his drone bay, just that the manoeuvring in the "gank world" isn't exactly rewarding. So let's me sum this up: the experiment with a thorax trying to catch a long range rupture doesn't prove anything about the thorax needing his drones or not, as the close range thorax would die to a rail-thorax as easily as it would die to an artillery-rupture. This is thus not, in any possible way, a mean to determine if the thorax drone bay is needed or not. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 13:29:00 -
[622] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 13:35:04
As i just the did the calculations, i will comment on this. The thorax can be fitted to do 200 dps at the ranges of a rupture (being between 15000 and 17000m in the calculations mentionned above), it will just be outdamaged at extremely high ranges, due to higher falloff and different ammo range modifiers of projectiles. But, in fact, the rupture and not the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrives at their target. I'd like you to reassess yourself on that basis the viability of how removing oversized plates will fix the thorax, as at this point i am convinced that removing the plates without halving the drone bay will break the blaster thorax, and halving the drone bay without removing plates will increase the incentive to use blasters. Let me explain this, to be sure we get this right. Removing the plates will remove the ability of the thorax to close on gank ship (and gank cruisers, because no plate will mean gank-area again) from a long range (thorax with 200 railguns included in the "gank-ship category btw). This will mean the dead of blaster setups on thorax (when the oversized drone bay already allows the thorax not to fit blasters). Halving the drone bay will encourage blaster setups as, as you said, the thorax up close need damage. The ability to fit long range frig guns will still be possible but more difficult. More survivable with a plate (not necessarly 1600mm, but 800mm or even 400mm), the thorax can be used close-range as it was intended, using its armor as a buffer. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 13:29:00 -
[623] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 15:43:50
As i just the did the calculations, i will comment on this. The thorax can be fitted to do 200 dps at the ranges of a rupture (being between 15000 and 17000m in the calculations mentionned above), it will just be outdamaged at extremely high ranges, due to higher falloff and different ammo range modifiers of projectiles. But, in fact, the rupture and not the thorax will likely be dead before the drones reach their target. I'd like you to reassess yourself on that basis the viability of how removing oversized plates will fix the thorax, as at this point i am convinced that removing the plates without halving the drone bay will break the blaster thorax, and halving the drone bay without removing plates will increase the incentive to use blasters. Let me explain this, to be sure we get this right. Removing the plates will remove the ability of the thorax to close on gank ship (and gank cruisers, because no plate will mean gank-area again) from a long range (thorax with 200 railguns included in the "gank-ship category btw). This will mean the dead of blaster setups on thorax (when the oversized drone bay already allows the thorax not to fit blasters). Halving the drone bay will encourage blaster setups as, as you said, the thorax up close need damage. The ability to fit long range frig guns will still be possible but more difficult. More survivable with a plate (not necessarly 1600mm, but 800mm or 400mm), the thorax can be used close-range as it was intended, using its armor as a buffer. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Muad 'dib |
Posted - 2005.08.26 13:45:00 -
[624]
It doesnt matter much what range the guns are as long as your comparing the same for all ships. Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results but with max drone dmg added to it aswell, that is where the problem lies i didnt compare guns before as everyone knows that blasters should do the most dmg of all close range weapons. The reason i used long range is because there better ballanced, and we see that the ships are in the same rough area, but when drone dmg is added the thorax will jump out in front, and if it was using blasters too that would create an even bigger gap (no doubt overtaking most BCs in max dmg). |
Muad 'dib Caldari Smoking Hillbillys The Volition Cult |
Posted - 2005.08.26 13:45:00 -
[625]
It doesnt matter much what range the guns are as long as your comparing the same for all ships. Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results but with max drone dmg added to it aswell, that is where the problem lies i didnt compare guns before as everyone knows that blasters should do the most dmg of all close range weapons. The reason i used long range is because there better ballanced, and we see that the ships are in the same rough area, but when drone dmg is added the thorax will jump out in front, and if it was using blasters too that would create an even bigger gap (no doubt overtaking most BCs in max dmg). |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:07:00 -
[626] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:08:18
The comparison above is 4 720mm t2 VS 5 200mm t2 at 15000-17000m, 4 damage mod t2 each. Comparing the moa with that isn't difficult but is necessarily inferior to the thorax, with 1 less gun, the same amound of damage mods, no ship skill damage bonus, and a slightly more damaging ammo because of the range bonus. Spare grid to fit launchers in the two remaining high slots will not change much. The problem of the maller is that 15000 m is still a working range for pulses, i'll do the math in a few with beams to. That being said, my point was that a non-plated thorax closing on a gank cruisers from 20km will die because there is not much place for manoeuvring in the "gank world". I see little relevance in comparing dps of gank setups at 20km to prove something about the drone bay of the thorax, as a non plated thorax (or whatever cruiser) will die to a gank-cruiser in less time than the flight time of the drones anyway. People suggesting to remove oversized plates but keeping the drone bay are fighting against their own goal, this will definetly kill the thorax as a close range ship and make their drones worthless. Sounds logical to me. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:07:00 -
[627] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 15:44:55
The comparison above is 4 720mm t2 VS 5 200mm t2 at 15000-17000m, 4 damage mod t2 each. Comparing the moa with that isn't difficult but is necessarily inferior to the thorax, with 1 less gun, the same amount of damage mods, no ship skill damage bonus, and a slightly more damaging ammo because of the range bonus. Spare grid to fit launchers in the two remaining high slots will not change much. The problem of the maller is that 15000 m is still a working range for pulses, i'll do the math in a few with beams to. That being said, my point was that a non-plated thorax closing on a gank cruisers from 20km will die because there is not much place for manoeuvring in the "gank world". I see little relevance in comparing dps of gank setups at 20km to prove something about the drone bay of the thorax, as a non plated thorax (or whatever cruiser) will die to a gank-cruiser in less time than the flight time of the drones anyway. People suggesting to remove oversized plates but keeping the drone bay are fighting against their own goal, this will definetly kill the thorax as a close range ship and make their drones worthless. Sounds logical to me. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:19:00 -
[628] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:20:29 "Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results (..)" Dunno what gank moa really be, to be honest... you can mount 4x 250mm rails on her with 4 damage mods, but that leaves launcher slots empty (not enough grid left) ... with all tech.2 gear she'd do ~196 raw dps then. If you drop a damage mod for RCU to install the launchers, the overall DoT might go up to ~210 dps... but that'll leave you with some 40 grid even with maxed out skills, to use for all the lows (didn't check the cpu, might get tight too) |
Muad 'dib |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:19:00 -
[629]
agreed 110%. Cruisers needed the plates, but the thorax does not need 8 heavy drones, 10 mediums perhaps just not so many of those damned heavys. |
Muad 'dib Caldari Smoking Hillbillys The Volition Cult |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:19:00 -
[630]
agreed 110%. Cruisers needed the plates, but the thorax does not need 8 heavy drones, 10 mediums perhaps just not so many of those damned heavys. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:19:00 -
[631] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:20:29 "Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results (..)" Dunno what gank moa really be, to be honest... you can mount 4x 250mm rails on her with 4 damage mods, but that leaves launcher slots empty (not enough grid left) ... with all tech.2 gear she'd do ~196 raw dps then. If you drop a damage mod for RCU to install the launchers, the overall DoT might go up to ~210 dps... but that'll leave you with some 40 grid even with maxed out skills, to use for all the lows (didn't check the cpu, might get tight too) |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:20:00 -
[632] Whats with all the people ignoring those saying that its the plate thats the problem, not the drone bay. Even the rax pilot from that vid, says that its the plate that overpowers the rax. Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots. |
 Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:20:00 -
[633] Whats with all the people ignoring those saying that its the plate thats the problem, not the drone bay. Even the rax pilot from that vid, says that its the plate that overpowers the rax. Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:23:00 -
[634]Honestly dude, i proved that point so nicely it could be a theorem. What you said wasn't ever proved, at any rate. Hint: see 6 posts above. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:23:00 -
[635]Honestly dude, i proved that point so nicely it could be a theorem. What you said wasn't ever proved, at any rate. Hint: see 6 posts above. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:27:00 -
[636] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08 "Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots." Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off. Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:27:00 -
[637] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08 "Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots." Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off. Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:29:00 -
[638]
I was thinking about 4 * 200mm t2, 4 damage mods and worthless launchers at the cost of training advanced weapon upgrade to high level. No idea if it would be better (dps wise) than what you get though. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:29:00 -
[639]
I was thinking about 4 * 200mm t2, 4 damage mods and worthless launchers at the cost of training advanced weapon upgrade to high level. No idea if it would be better (dps wise) than what you get though. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:30:00 -
[640] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:35:41 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:31:43
And that is exactly why there is not hope whatsoever to defeat a tanked thorax in any close range cruiser in a world without plates. The close range thorax will die to any long range gank fitting, and kill other close range cruisers. Hence, nobody will ever fit a cruiser for close range except to fight other classes. Most cruiser cannot catch frigs, and cannot be a threat to BS without a plate, hence cruisers are ruled out of the game. Then we go play WOW and ask Blizzard for bigger helmets. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:30:00 -
[641] If you nerf the 1600 plates it will be even worse:
My point is that cruisers fit bs extenders and plates because its the only way to be usable. Both because med guns give no advantages taking all fitting and native HP with the cruiser active tanking in most situations is not enough to do anything but ganking before you take any fire, because if you do, no matter who shoots you you are dead. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:30:00 -
[642] If you nerf the 1600 plates it will be even worse:
My point is that cruisers fit bs extenders and plates because its the only way to be usable. Both because med guns give no advantages taking all fitting and native HP with the cruiser active tanking in most situations is not enough to do anything but ganking before you take any fire, because if you do, no matter who shoots you you are dead. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:30:00 -
[643] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:37:25 Edit: Nevermind. Aborted joke. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:36:00 -
[644] PS About firing on drones to fight rax. Yeah sure, take your time. But if you fire with guns on drones keep in mind that 8x450 HP of a drones is 3600 HP. Drones are small and fast hard to hit, hard to lock due to a lot of clicking. At the same time, thorax itself can do with guns half of the total damage. So what you gonna do? Provide 3.5k damage on thorax or try to shoot down drones? The problem is that med smb is totaly sucks against heavy drones. Obviously because heavy drones are designed to be bs weapon and large smb to be conter weapon against it. Med smb is designed against med drones, but who uses med drones then heavies can hit most of the targets and provide more damage having MORE HP. PS And what they did with the ecm burst? What the hell they did that for? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:36:00 -
[645] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 14:38:08 PS About firing on drones to fight rax. Yeah sure, take your time. But if you fire with guns on drones keep in mind that 8x450 HP of a drones is 3600 HP. Drones are small and fast hard to hit, hard to lock due to a lot of clicking. At the same time, thorax itself can do with guns half of the total damage. So what you gonna do? Provide 3.5k damage on thorax or try to shoot down drones? The problem is that med smb totaly sucks against heavy drones. Obviously because heavy drones are designed to be bs weapon and large smb to be conter weapon against them. Med smb is designed against med drones, but who uses med drones then heavies can hit most of the targets and provide more damage having MORE HP. PS And what they did with the ecm burst? What the hell they did that for? |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:37:00 -
[646]
I thought the rupture had six high slots? If 4 720s/heavys arent able to be fit, bring it down to 650s. It sounds much like many folks here will veto *any* drone bay at 200 on a cruiser. I think you could remove 3 highslots on the thorax, or move the space to the vexor and you'd still have this from some. Suggest you get some compromise sorta mindset, or these threads will continue for eons. As that video showed us - a big part of the issue comes from not shooting the drones. That doesn't get factored into the equations. The issue to me is that the thorax has the *ability* to gank with med guns along with the drones - though with plates in vogue people aren't gonna do that very often. I've come around to the idea of swapping drone bays on the vexor and thorax...but leaving the eve universe devoid of a cruiser with 200? No. Sorry. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:37:00 -
[647] "I was thinking about 4 * 200mm t2, 4 damage mods and worthless launchers at the cost of training advanced weapon upgrade to high level. No idea if it would be better (dps wise) than what you get though." Ahh, i see... at first glance it looks like it'd be possible to get ~230 raw dps out of similar setup (4x 200mm tech.2 rail, 2x tech.2 heavy launchers) ... but that's with antimatter ammo, and i didn't actually check if it's possible to cram all this in Moa's powergrid ^^ |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:37:00 -
[648] "I was thinking about 4 * 200mm t2, 4 damage mods and worthless launchers at the cost of training advanced weapon upgrade to high level. No idea if it would be better (dps wise) than what you get though." Ahh, i see... at first glance it looks like it'd be possible to get ~230 raw dps out of similar setup (4x 200mm tech.2 rail, 2x tech.2 heavy launchers) ... but that's with antimatter ammo, and i didn't actually check if it's possible to cram all this in Moa's powergrid ^^ |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:37:00 -
[649]
I thought the rupture had six high slots? If 4 720s/heavys arent able to be fit, bring it down to 650s. It sounds much like many folks here will veto *any* drone bay at 200 on a cruiser. I think you could remove 3 highslots on the thorax, or move the space to the vexor and you'd still have this from some. Suggest you get some compromise sorta mindset, or these threads will continue for eons. As that video showed us - a big part of the issue comes from not shooting the drones. That doesn't get factored into the equations. The issue to me is that the thorax has the *ability* to gank with med guns along with the drones - though with plates in vogue people aren't gonna do that very often. I've come around to the idea of swapping drone bays on the vexor and thorax...but leaving the eve universe devoid of a cruiser with 200? No. Sorry. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Tennotsukai |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:42:00 -
[650]
So, the problem is in fact the plate and not the drone bay of the rax? But because people don't want to lose their extra 3k of armour, they instead want to nerf the rax. Sorry, but those who are saying that the drone bay isn't the problem, its the plate are looking to be right. The whole argument shouldn't be about the rax being uber because of its drones.. its in fact the rax is uber because of the 1600mm plate. "scotty, i need more power to warp out." "i canna give yer any more captain, the dilithium crystal was nerfed this morning.. yer just gonna have ta face it, we've been ganked." |
 Tennotsukai Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:42:00 -
[651]
So, the problem is in fact the plate and not the drone bay of the rax? But because people don't want to lose their extra 3k of armour, they instead want to nerf the rax. Sorry, but those who are saying that the drone bay isn't the problem, its the plate are looking to be right. The whole argument shouldn't be about the rax being uber because of its drones.. its in fact the rax is uber because of the 1600mm plate. |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:45:00 -
[652]
Noone here is saying Plates Aren't A Problem they just aren't THIS problem. We need to bring the Thorax out of HAC land damage wise before we cascade a change to ALL cruisers that will still leave the PROBLEM this whole thread has proven time and time again. Nerfing Plates without boosting cruisers is going to break something you DO NOT WANT broken at this point in time... close range cruiser battles across the board. Its just you know... some other pilots besides Rax Pilots would like to get into all the fun... because they watch on the side line while Thorax pget into the fun without their counterpart pwning them right and left unjustly. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:45:00 -
[653] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 26/08/2005 14:50:06
Noone here is saying Plates Aren't A Problem they just aren't THIS problem. We need to bring the Thorax out of HAC land damage wise before we cascade a change to ALL cruisers that will still leave the PROBLEM this whole thread has proven time and time again. Nerfing Plates without boosting cruisers is going to break something you DO NOT WANT broken at this point in time... close range cruiser battles across the board. Its just you know... some other pilots besides Rax Pilots would like to get into all the fun... because they watch on the side line while Thorax get into the fun without their counterpart coming even close to useful. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:51:00 -
[654]You cannot outdamage 4 720 t2 & 4 damage mods t2 with any amount of 650mm + heavy launchers, and i am not even sure that rupture with 4 720 t2 & 4 damage mods t2 + RCU 2 can fit 2 rocket launchers in the spare high slots. No. There is just a need for people to acknowledge this simple logic: * remove the plates, keep the drone bay: Tanking becomes useless against, back to ganking area. Blaster range is doomed, navigation is useless as when you are moving, you are not doing damage and you die. The heavy drones are useless for a thorax that will die in 20 seconds, when getting hammered from outside 15km. Thorax is doomed, and that's with its drone bay untouched. * keep the plates, remove the drone bay: The blaster-thorax becomes viable and desirableagain as it has to fit blasters to be a close range boat (needing damage and not able to rely only on the drone bay). Plate setup still beat gank setup, which mean longer and more enjoyable fight. Thorax can still heavily outdamage any cruiser at close range and even break a dual rep apoc tank alone.
If you remove the plates, no close range cruiser will ever be able to shoot 8 heavy drones, do you understand that ? Close range thorax in a plate-free world will beat any close range cruiser. incidentally, it will die to gank setups, as every other close range cruiser. We will only see cruisers in mid range gank setup. I *think* that you didn't factor in the equation that other cruisers *also* would lose the plate. Ok ?
As i showed in another post at your request, swapping the vexor and the thorax drone bay will make the vexor bonus useless and the thorax will lose around 25% of its drone damage, which isn't very much (but still something). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:51:00 -
[655]You cannot outdamage 4 720 t2 & 4 damage mods t2 with any amount of 650mm + heavy launchers, and i am not even sure that rupture with 4 720 t2 & 4 damage mods t2 + RCU 2 can fit 2 rocket launchers in the spare high slots. No. There is just a need for people to acknowledge this simple logic: * remove the plates, keep the drone bay: Tanking becomes useless against, back to ganking area. Blaster range is doomed, navigation is useless as when you are moving, you are not doing damage and you die. The heavy drones are useless for a thorax that will die in 20 seconds, when getting hammered from outside 15km. Thorax is doomed, and that's with its drone bay untouched. * keep the plates, remove the drone bay: The blaster-thorax becomes viable and desirableagain as it has to fit blasters to be a close range boat (needing damage and not able to rely only on the drone bay). Plate setup still beat gank setup, which mean longer and more enjoyable fight. Thorax can still heavily outdamage any cruiser at close range and even break a dual rep apoc tank alone.
If you remove the plates, no close range cruiser will ever be able to shoot 8 heavy drones, do you understand that ? Close range thorax in a plate-free world will beat any close range cruiser. incidentally, it will die to gank setups, as every other close range cruiser. We will only see cruisers in mid range gank setup. I *think* that you didn't factor in the equation that other cruisers *also* would lose the plate. Ok ?
As i showed in another post at your request, swapping the vexor and the thorax drone bay will make the vexor bonus useless and the thorax will lose around 25% of its drone damage, which isn't very much (but still something). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:56:00 -
[656]
But isn't that there the problem? being as 1600mm plate is for battleships and not cruisers. But because some bright spark had the idea of fitting it by using small guns the ball game changed. If you remove the plate, the rax loses its megatank.. and since the damage isn't insta damage like that of a gank-a-geddon (drone flight time.. etc) plus the rax because vunrable on its way to its target it levels things out. |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:56:00 -
[657]
But isn't that there the problem? being as 1600mm plate is for battleships and not cruisers. But because some bright spark had the idea of fitting it by using small guns the ball game changed. If you remove the plate, the rax loses its megatank.. and since the damage isn't insta damage like that of a gank-a-geddon (drone flight time.. etc) plus the rax because vunrable on its way to its target it levels things out. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:01:00 -
[658]
Congrats, you took something that was already removed before you posted, and got it all wrong. I removed it, but as i believe that you aren't going to remove what you posted, here's what i wanted to write and decided not to: And that is exactly why there is not hope whatsoever to defeat a tanked thorax in any close range cruiser in a world without plates. The close range thorax will die to any long range gank fitting, and kill other close range cruisers with its massive damage advantage coming from drones. Hence, nobody will ever fit a cruiser for close range except to fight other classes. Most cruiser cannot catch frigs, and cannot be a threat to BS without a plate, hence short range cruisers are ruled out of the game. Long range cruisers still die to bs in a painful death. Trying to make a point when quoting something before it gets edited isn't working good, ok ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:01:00 -
[659]
Congrats, you took something that was already removed before you posted, and got it all wrong. I removed it, but as i believe that you aren't going to remove what you posted, here's what i wanted to write and decided not to: And that is exactly why there is not hope whatsoever to defeat a tanked thorax in any close range cruiser in a world without plates. The close range thorax will die to any long range gank fitting, and kill other close range cruisers with its massive damage advantage coming from drones. Hence, nobody will ever fit a cruiser for close range except to fight other classes. Most cruiser cannot catch frigs, and cannot be a threat to BS without a plate, hence short range cruisers are ruled out of the game. Long range cruisers still die to bs in a painful death. Trying to make a point when quoting something before it gets edited isn't working good, ok ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:03:00 -
[660]
Erm... when you fit 1600mm plate, on a rax you can't fit med blasters.. so that doesn't bring back the blaster-rax .. unless your planning on making it so the rax can fit 1600mm plate and med blasters.. but then it would still leave things overpowered. The problem is clearly the plate, and the majority of people asking for the rax, drone bay to be nerfed are in fact trying to hide the problem of the plate. |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:03:00 -
[661]
Erm... when you fit 1600mm plate, on a rax you can't fit med blasters.. so that doesn't bring back the blaster-rax .. unless your planning on making it so the rax can fit 1600mm plate and med blasters.. but then it would still leave things overpowered. The problem is clearly the plate, and the majority of people asking for the rax, drone bay to be nerfed are in fact trying to hide the problem of the plate. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:06:00 -
[662]That is not a problem, that is a solution of cruiser users for cruiser users. And fyi, frigates are much more hurt by this than battleships, exception being the thorax. Ok ? It does not LEVEL it out, it RULES it out. Ok ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:06:00 -
[663]That is not a problem, that is a solution of cruiser users for cruiser users. And fyi, frigates are much more hurt by this than battleships, exception being the thorax. Ok ? It does not LEVEL it out, it RULES it out. Ok ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:09:00 -
[664] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 15:09:19 Small blasters dude, small neutron are the 1600mm plate alternative to med electron. Or fit a smaller plate and bigger weapons. Seriously, you make me want to cry. Why don't you give a reason, ONCE, instead of hammering this thread with this affirmation. Prove IT damnit! Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:09:00 -
[665] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 15:09:19 Small blasters dude, small neutron are the 1600mm plate alternative to med electron. Or fit a smaller plate and bigger weapons. Seriously, you make me want to cry. Why don't you give a reason, ONCE, instead of hammering this thread with this affirmation. Prove IT damnit! Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:12:00 -
[666]
Erm... frigs are not hurt by this, the one frig i can see by the plates being sorted out is the plated claw.. which imho is overpowered in the same way as the rax is. Because of oversized plates Your whole argument boils down to the fact, you don't want plates to be fixed. And rather addressing this problem you want to nerf the rax.. without plate the rax is nothing, going back to before some bright spark put 1600mm plate on a rax, and you could use 10 heavies in a rax.. no-one really complained about the rax.. because it was just another cruiser and died very quickly. |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:12:00 -
[667]
Erm... frigs are not hurt by this, the one frig i can see by the plates being sorted out is the plated claw.. which imho is overpowered in the same way as the rax is. Because of oversized plates Your whole argument boils down to the fact, you don't want plates to be fixed. And rather addressing this problem you want to nerf the rax.. without plate the rax is nothing, going back to before some bright spark put 1600mm plate on a rax, and you could use 10 heavies in a rax.. no-one really complained about the rax.. because it was just another cruiser and died very quickly. |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:15:00 -
[668]
I agree with the second one. Removing it outright is absolutely over the top.
If the thorax is wearing light weapons, thats just not the case. Especially slow traversing ogres. Wish you would try it :/
No - tbh I didn't factor in loss of plate to the game, since it won't happen. As you mentioned up above, longer battles == better. The plates have increased the role of cruisers and battlecruisers across the board. Give them all a speed shot in the arm and they are starting to be a very attractive platform. It keeps gate ganks from outright slaughtering noobs as often. Etc. On the whole I support plates, but that is another argument, for another mindlessly long thread.
If you change one major thing, something tells me they could adjust the vexor bonus if need be...but there wouldn't really be one...could just fly a slew of mediums. Brass tacks. Nerfing the thorax down to a 50 drone bay, I don't see that ever happening. Nerfing the thorax drone bay without shifting the volume to another gallente ship, equally not happening. Proceed from there towards a solution that makes sense. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:15:00 -
[669]
I agree with the second one. Removing it outright is absolutely over the top.
If the thorax is wearing light weapons, thats just not the case. Especially slow traversing ogres. Wish you would try it :/
No - tbh I didn't factor in loss of plate to the game, since it won't happen. As you mentioned up above, longer battles == better. The plates have increased the role of cruisers and battlecruisers across the board. Give them all a speed shot in the arm and they are starting to be a very attractive platform. It keeps gate ganks from outright slaughtering noobs as often. Etc. On the whole I support plates, but that is another argument, for another mindlessly long thread.
If you change one major thing, something tells me they could adjust the vexor bonus if need be...but there wouldn't really be one...could just fly a slew of mediums. Brass tacks. Nerfing the thorax down to a 50 drone bay, I don't see that ever happening. Nerfing the thorax drone bay without shifting the volume to another gallente ship, equally not happening. Proceed from there towards a solution that makes sense. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Gabriel Karade |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:17:00 -
[670] The Thorax is brutal without 1600mm plate. You can fit Heavy Electron II's, a 400mm plate and Medium repairer II, or Heavy Electron II's, a 800mm plate and small repairer II. Either way you can easily do 500 DPS thanks to the 8 heavy drones while having up to 3K armour (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:17:00 -
[671] The Thorax is brutal without 1600mm plate. You can fit Heavy Electron II's, a 400mm plate and Medium repairer II, or Heavy Electron II's, a 800mm plate and small repairer II. Either way you can easily do 500 DPS thanks to the 8 heavy drones while having up to 3K armour ---------- Video - 'War-Machine' |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:19:00 -
[672]cruisers mounting frigates guns are the bane of frigates, t1 and t2 alike, much more than cruisers mounting cruiser guns. Does this make sense to you ? That is where i stop replying to you. I tried enough, believe what you want. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:19:00 -
[673]cruisers mounting frigates guns are the bane of frigates, t1 and t2 alike, much more than cruisers mounting cruiser guns. Does this make sense to you ? That is where i stop replying to you. I tried enough, believe what you want. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:20:00 -
[674]
I didn't think that out well - but anyway, adjust the vexor bonuses to match a 200-225ish drone bay. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:20:00 -
[675]
I didn't think that out well - but anyway, adjust the vexor bonuses to match a 200-225ish drone bay. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 17:56:00 -
[676] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 17:59:41 Well, just to thrown in some practical results of another silly experiment... Moa, 1600mm plate, 2 armour hardeners, damage mod; 4x 150mm rails, 1 missile launcher, 1 medium smartbomb; afterburner, warp disruptor, 2x web (might replace second web with small cap injector but the result is hardly spectacular. might drop the damage mod for grid/cap module to fit/run mwd and rest of the gear) results: can't keep distance from Thorax. webs will stop it at ~10 km but that's short enough for her to engage nos and kill Moa's cap before the smartbomb + guns + moa's drones deal enough damage to either drones or Thorax herself. Over 5k of hardened armour lasts ~60-90 seconds once the drones and Thorax start having fun with it. (can't use MWD to stay out of Thorax' range either, because Moa is #1 slower #2 heavier #3 doesn't get the MWD cap reduction bonus so runs out of cap first and becomes easy prey. if you fit the nos on the Moa to counter cap drain, you're left with couple of tiny guns vs 8 heavy drones with some 3.5k of hp total, and even more than that on Thorax herself. kind of throws the wrench in all the "it's balanced just fit a smartbomb" "it's balanced just stay out of range" "it's balanced just go for drones first" suggested ways of defense... as far as you're flying Caldari "best" cruiser, anyway -.o edit: and on sidenote, the fact Moa makes far more effective armour tank than shield tank is effin' sad and bordering on ridiculous ¼¼;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 17:56:00 -
[677] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 17:59:41 Well, just to thrown in some practical results of another silly experiment... Moa, 1600mm plate, 2 armour hardeners, damage mod; 4x 150mm rails, 1 missile launcher, 1 medium smartbomb; afterburner, warp disruptor, 2x web (might replace second web with small cap injector but the result is hardly spectacular. might drop the damage mod for grid/cap module to fit/run mwd and rest of the gear) results: can't keep distance from Thorax. webs will stop it at ~10 km but that's short enough for her to engage nos and kill Moa's cap before the smartbomb + guns + moa's drones deal enough damage to either drones or Thorax herself. Over 5k of hardened armour lasts ~60-90 seconds once the drones and Thorax start having fun with it. (can't use MWD to stay out of Thorax' range either, because Moa is #1 slower #2 heavier #3 doesn't get the MWD cap reduction bonus so runs out of cap first and becomes easy prey. if you fit the nos on the Moa to counter cap drain, you're left with couple of tiny guns vs 8 heavy drones with some 3.5k of hp total, and even more than that on Thorax herself. kind of throws the wrench in all the "it's balanced just fit a smartbomb" "it's balanced just stay out of range" "it's balanced just go for drones first" suggested ways of defense... as far as you're flying Caldari "best" cruiser, anyway -.o edit: and on sidenote, the fact Moa makes far more effective armour tank than shield tank is effin' sad and bordering on ridiculous ¼¼;; |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:18:00 -
[678] Now they will say that if you fit 3 smb and 3 noses you can kill drones fast, which somehow means "dead thorax", LOL |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:18:00 -
[679] Now they will say that if you fit 3 smb and 3 noses you can kill drones fast, which somehow means "dead thorax", LOL |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:21:00 -
[680]
No, it doesn't. I'm quite successful with my non-plate 'rax. I'm also quite vulnerable. I notice you've changed your argument to attack the value of a thorax without plate...but this logic will be even more unfounded than the logic that drones make it overpowered, as old-school thorax lovers have been making due with their fragile but heavy hitting cruiser for a good long time. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:21:00 -
[681]
No, it doesn't. I'm quite successful with my non-plate 'rax. I'm also quite vulnerable. I notice you've changed your argument to attack the value of a thorax without plate...but this logic will be even more unfounded than the logic that drones make it overpowered, as old-school thorax lovers have been making due with their fragile but heavy hitting cruiser for a good long time. |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:28:00 -
[682]
Two points... first, call me crazy doesn't it make sense that since it has bonuses that are directed towards using med guns.. well, its supposed to fit med guns? Second, thank you from proving my point that its the plates that are the problem. Since you can't enter into a debate about this problem and so far all your arguments have been about protecting you ability to use your precious oversized plate. Sorry, but nerfing the drone bay isn't the answer... addressing the use of oversized plates is. But hey, this whole thread is going in circles.. and in the end something is going to give, which will more then likely be the nerfing of both the plate and the drone bay... and a new thread of nerf this ship, because its too powerful |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:28:00 -
[683]
Two points... first, call me crazy doesn't it make sense that since it has bonuses that are directed towards using med guns.. well, its supposed to fit med guns? Second, thank you from proving my point that its the plates that are the problem. Since you can't enter into a debate about this problem and so far all your arguments have been about protecting you ability to use your precious oversized plate. Sorry, but nerfing the drone bay isn't the answer... addressing the use of oversized plates is. But hey, this whole thread is going in circles.. and in the end something is going to give, which will more then likely be the nerfing of both the plate and the drone bay... and a new thread of nerf this ship, because its too powerful |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:32:00 -
[684] Tomorrow there is no plates in the game.
How on gods green earth it is balanced? How plates fit here? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:32:00 -
[685] Tomorrow there is no plates in the game.
How on gods green earth it is balanced? How plates fit here? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:34:00 -
[686]
Because it has half the time to do the damage in. But I've said that a lot now... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:34:00 -
[687]
Because it has half the time to do the damage in. But I've said that a lot now... |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:35:00 -
[688]
Fix, nerf, remove plates from all cruisers and your still left with a SERIOUS problem called Thorax with 8 Heavy Drones. Doesn't matter what type you have on, if you name them, if they fetch your slippers because at the end of the day its still a HUGE problem. You want either a) nothing to happen at all or b) Plates to be changed a) HUGE imbalance that's almost stressing b) Even bigger imbalance thats really irritating you would even consider Until you take care of one problem you are still left with one flat out fact... Thorax > Every Cruiser in EVE. Plate or No plate. Not only do you effect Cruisers if you want Oversized plates to be taken away, you also effect HACs and AF. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:35:00 -
[689]
Fix, nerf, remove plates from all cruisers and your still left with a SERIOUS problem called Thorax with 8 Heavy Drones. Doesn't matter what type you have on, if you name them, if they fetch your slippers because at the end of the day its still a HUGE problem. You want either a) nothing to happen at all or b) Plates to be changed a) HUGE imbalance that's almost stressing b) Even bigger imbalance thats really irritating you would even consider Until you take care of one problem you are still left with one flat out fact... Thorax > Every Cruiser in EVE. Plate or No plate. Not only do you effect Cruisers if you want Oversized plates to be taken away, you also effect HACs and AF. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:40:00 -
[690]
Without plate, it's simply not true. Folks are already yielding to the logic that a non-plated thorax is quite vulnerable.
I don't see how this is a bad thing. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:40:00 -
[691]
Without plate, it's simply not true. Folks are already yielding to the logic that a non-plated thorax is quite vulnerable.
I don't see how this is a bad thing. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:52:00 -
[692] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 18:55:04
|
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:52:00 -
[693] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 18:55:04
|
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:09:00 -
[694]
Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Knowing that, and knowing that combat will be decided before drones could become a factor, why even consider the "capability" of a long range setup as a part of your argument? A long range thorax will almost invariably lose.
Thorax needs this. I've explained why again and again.
Thorax is the dominant short-range cruiser. Plain and simple. Is it better than any other cruiser in this role? Certainly. Does that make it overpowered? No more so than the rupture is overpowered for its long-range supremacy. I don't cry "overpowered!" when I try and fail to out-range a rupture in my thorax. I fight within the thorax's strengths. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:09:00 -
[695]
Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Knowing that, and knowing that combat will be decided before drones could become a factor, why even consider the "capability" of a long range setup as a part of your argument? A long range thorax will almost invariably lose.
Thorax needs this. I've explained why again and again.
Thorax is the dominant short-range cruiser. Plain and simple. Is it better than any other cruiser in this role? Certainly. Does that make it overpowered? No more so than the rupture is overpowered for its long-range supremacy. I don't cry "overpowered!" when I try and fail to out-range a rupture in my thorax. I fight within the thorax's strengths. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:23:00 -
[696]
Prosecution asks for prove of the thorax long range abilities vs rupture!
You honor and members of the jury, can we say that rupture outdamages or outranges thorax a lot? Like half maybe? No? Like 40%? Still no? In what cases rupture will have advantage over thorax? At extream cruiser fight ranges only. How big of the advantage? Slim. Prosecution rests. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:23:00 -
[697]
Prosecution asks for prove of the thorax long range abilities vs rupture!
You honor and members of the jury, can we say that rupture outdamages or outranges thorax a lot? Like half maybe? No? Like 40%? Still no? In what cases rupture will have advantage over thorax? At extream cruiser fight ranges only. How big of the advantage? Slim. Prosecution rests. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:27:00 -
[698]
720 howies are more properly compared to 250 rails. Next witness? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:27:00 -
[699] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 19:29:02
720 howies are more properly compared to 250 rails. The fitting of which will likely require 3 grid upgrades. Next witness? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:32:00 -
[700] Objection, defence is playing fool with the court! 200 mm is WEAKER rail, but still its better. Defence knows that and tries to dismiss the witness. 250mm rail have more damage and range. They will only be better, but harder to fit. Why bother if 200mm rail shows us the setup which fits, works and totaly shows the disbalance of thorax bay. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:32:00 -
[701] Objection, defence is playing fool with the court! 200 mm is WEAKER rail, but still its better. Defence knows that and tries to dismiss the witness. 250mm rail have more damage and range. They will only be better, but harder to fit. Why bother if 200mm rail shows us the setup which fits, works and totaly shows the disbalance of thorax bay. |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:41:00 -
[702]
Objection over ruled... 200mms should be compaired to 650s. compairing the 720 to the 200mm and using its fittings as the basis of your argument is showing the court you don't know what your talking about. |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:41:00 -
[703]
Objection over ruled... 200mms should be compaired to 650s. compairing the 720 to the 200mm and using its fittings as the basis of your argument is showing the court you don't know what your talking about. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:44:00 -
[704] *Sigh* Let me try this from another angle. First, your assertion that a thorax with medium class rails can compete in pvp is way off base. That would more or less be a whole other discussion. Which takes us back to the example of a non-plated blaster-rax for discussion. You're coming at this argument from a standpoint of static numbers. Numbers which you seem to be right about for the most part, but which you're horribly misapplying. I'm coming at this argument from a standpoint of tactical design and doctrine. Rupture favors long range. It's got hard hitting weapons at that range. It's fast enough to keep its targets at arms length (indeed, to easily pull away from its target if the target is not mwd fitted.) It does not have as impressive of static damage numbers...because it can begin doing its damage more or less as soon as it gets lock, while other cruisers (not just the thorax) have to get closer to begin firing. Opposite end of the spectrum, we have the thorax. VERY impressive overall firepower. Moreso than any other cruiser. Why? Because it has to wait longer than any other cruiser (under fire the whole time) to get into effective range. Just pulling some round numbers here, let's say an average cruiser fight lasts 40 seconds (a fair number in my experience.) If the fight starts at 20km, the thorax will only be shooting and doing damage for more or less half of the engagement. Meanwhile, its mwd is making it a nice and juicy target on the approach. Other cruisers take a more mid-range approach. They have other advantages to suit them: the maller with its incredible durability, and the moa with...well, I'll be honest: I don't think many people have come up with anything the moa is terrific at in pvp. That poor ship needs love. At any rate...these differences in design and execution are what make combat in Eve so much fun. You've got to think about what your target is, and how you're going to use your advantages to overcome its advantages. Instead of everybody having more or less equivalent drones bay, grid, cpu, and optimal range. I'm convinced everybody would be happier with combat if everybody knew it was "target, orbit at 20km, f1-f5" and wait to see who dies. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:44:00 -
[705] *Sigh* Let me try this from another angle. First, your assertion that a thorax with medium class rails can compete in pvp is way off base. That would more or less be a whole other discussion. Which takes us back to the example of a non-plated blaster-rax for discussion. You're coming at this argument from a standpoint of static numbers. Numbers which you seem to be right about for the most part, but which you're horribly misapplying. I'm coming at this argument from a standpoint of tactical design and doctrine. Rupture favors long range. It's got hard hitting weapons at that range. It's fast enough to keep its targets at arms length (indeed, to easily pull away from its target if the target is not mwd fitted.) It does not have as impressive of static damage numbers...because it can begin doing its damage more or less as soon as it gets lock, while other cruisers (not just the thorax) have to get closer to begin firing. Opposite end of the spectrum, we have the thorax. VERY impressive overall firepower. Moreso than any other cruiser. Why? Because it has to wait longer than any other cruiser (under fire the whole time) to get into effective range. Just pulling some round numbers here, let's say an average cruiser fight lasts 40 seconds (a fair number in my experience.) If the fight starts at 20km, the thorax will only be shooting and doing damage for more or less half of the engagement. Meanwhile, its mwd is making it a nice and juicy target on the approach. Other cruisers take a more mid-range approach. They have other advantages to suit them: the maller with its incredible durability, and the moa with...well, I'll be honest: I don't think many people have come up with anything the moa is terrific at in pvp. That poor ship needs love. At any rate...these differences in design and execution are what make combat in Eve so much fun. You've got to think about what your target is, and how you're going to use your advantages to overcome its advantages. Instead of everybody having more or less equivalent drones bay, grid, cpu, and optimal range. I'm convinced everybody would be happier with combat if everybody knew it was "target, orbit at 20km, f1-f5" and wait to see who dies. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:51:00 -
[706]
Prosecution is friking speachless! But calls another witness.
Prosecution never said fitting is the problem! The point is that thorax is capable of engaing at mid and long ranges with stats comparable with rupture. Rupture has NO real ADVANTAGE to allow thorax to have double offence at close range. What the hell are you talking about ppl? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:51:00 -
[707]
Prosecution is friking speachless! But calls another witness.
Prosecution never said fitting is the problem! The point is that thorax is capable of engaing at mid and long ranges with stats comparable with rupture. Rupture has NO real ADVANTAGE to allow thorax to have double offence at close range. What the hell are you talking about ppl? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:00:00 -
[708] You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:00:00 -
[709] You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:04:00 -
[710] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 20:06:38 Ppl dont fit rails because no1 needs a cruiser gunfight at 40km. Thats all. Rupture fits 720s because they can do nothing else. Whats your dps on 2 heavy launchers? And how is it better then 170dps close range? It feels like you are a thorax pilot fearing for your drone bay. PS Sacrifice yeh? And your rupture is not secrifizing everything it can just to compete with rails? What kind of argument is that? You can fit guns, I can fit guns, ranges are close, trackign same, damage is the same. You can't fit antyhing else, I can't also. HP same, how is it any better to use rupture then thorax for long range? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:04:00 -
[711] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 20:06:38 Ppl dont fit rails because no1 needs a cruiser gunfight at 40km. Thats all. Rupture fits 720s because they can do nothing else. Whats your dps on 2 heavy launchers? And how is it better then 170dps close range? It feels like you are a thorax pilot fearing for your drone bay. PS Sacrifice yeh? And your rupture is not secrifizing everything it can just to compete with rails? What kind of argument is that? You can fit guns, I can fit guns, ranges are close, trackign same, damage is the same. You can't fit antyhing else, I can't also. HP same, how is it any better to use rupture then thorax for long range? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:07:00 -
[712] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 20:07:19
Well color me stupid. I thought we were comparing long range setups, for which the drones will likely not even come into play. (Another reason I write off the long-range argument as reasonable...what pilot is going to deny himself his biggest advantage?)
Come, now. I refrained from the "it sounds like you got your ass kicked by a thorax pilot" argument... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:07:00 -
[713] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 20:07:19
Well color me stupid. I thought we were comparing long range setups, for which the drones will likely not even come into play. (Another reason I write off the long-range argument as reasonable...what pilot is going to deny himself his biggest advantage?)
Come, now. I refrained from the "it sounds like you got your ass kicked by a thorax pilot" argument... |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:10:00 -
[714] Then you dissmiss any logic and say "rupture is better long range" every time I can't argue much but "you are thorax pilot". Show me numbers where we all can see that rupture is twice better then thorax long range, because thorax is TWICE BETTER the rupture close range. I show you numbers - they both can be fitted for long range and perform WELL. But you fitted for long range can't do anything else, thorax can own both close and long range. What else can I say? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:10:00 -
[715] Then you dissmiss any logic and say "rupture is better long range" every time I can't argue much but "you are thorax pilot". Show me numbers where we all can see that rupture is twice better then thorax long range, because thorax is TWICE BETTER the rupture close range. I show you numbers - they both can be fitted for long range and perform WELL. But you fitted for long range can't do anything else, thorax can own both close and long range. What else can I say? |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:11:00 -
[716] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 26/08/2005 20:12:40
You're an idiot with blatent disregard for this games mechanics. Not only do you say a rupture is better at long range than a thorax but you say the thorax needs it's UBER damage to kill anything. Well sir a Thorax fighting a ranged rupture will NEVER die because a Thorax will NEVER forced to stay in a fight. Go home and take your lam'a'rax you claim to have with you.. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:11:00 -
[717] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 26/08/2005 20:12:40
You're an idiot with blatent disregard for this games mechanics. Not only do you say a rupture is better at long range than a thorax but you say the thorax needs it's UBER damage to kill anything. Well sir a Thorax fighting a ranged rupture will NEVER die because a Thorax will NEVER forced to stay in a fight. Go home and take your lam'a'rax you claim to have with you.. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:14:00 -
[718]
Heck, someone else trying to tell me the thorax is overpowered provided the numbers earlier, saying he could get 200dps from his rupture. Assuming a 20 second approach time, that's 4000 damage (before resists and tracking factors, of course, but hey...you're throwing 'raw' dps at me as well.) 4000 damage. Before the thorax even begins. Is that a good enough number for you? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:14:00 -
[719]
Heck, someone else trying to tell me the thorax is overpowered provided the numbers earlier, saying he could get 200dps from his rupture. Assuming a 20 second approach time, that's 4000 damage (before resists and tracking factors, of course, but hey...you're throwing 'raw' dps at me as well.) 4000 damage. Before the thorax even begins. Is that a good enough number for you? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:21:00 -
[720]
Most 1v1's end with somebody running. That's the nature of a lot of folks' mindsets anymore. We're assuming both targets stay until one dies for the sake of numbers. Give a rupture and a thorax each an interceptor to work with, and things get really interesting, don't they? Unfortunately, too many factors come into play at that point to really argue the "overpowered" issue. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:21:00 -
[721]
Most 1v1's end with somebody running. That's the nature of a lot of folks' mindsets anymore. We're assuming both targets stay until one dies for the sake of numbers. Give a rupture and a thorax each an interceptor to work with, and things get really interesting, don't they? Unfortunately, too many factors come into play at that point to really argue the "overpowered" issue. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:22:00 -
[722] Dont play stupid. Show me the numbers how long range thorax is twice weaker then long range rupture. Points is that you claim it is, and I say its not. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:22:00 -
[723] Dont play stupid. Show me the numbers how long range thorax is twice weaker then long range rupture. Points is that you claim it is, and I say its not. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:23:00 -
[724] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 20:25:14 Garreck, answer my questions pretty please. The one about how exactly 8 heavy drones are needed and ten mediums are not enough, and the few others you didn't reply to. Thanks. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:23:00 -
[725] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 20:25:14 Garreck, answer my questions pretty please. The one about how exactly 8 heavy drones are needed and ten mediums are not enough, and the few others you didn't reply to. Thanks. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:30:00 -
[726] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 20:30:09
That is so wrong, getting rid of the possibility to warp out while testing something is not, ever, going to give an evidence about anything. You just can't assume that at all. Reason ? Because in pvp you have to make sure that you target don't run away, no thorax pilot is going to be kitted to death running after a mwd rupture, which is your argument about the weakness of the thorax. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:30:00 -
[727] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 20:30:09
That is so wrong, getting rid of the possibility to warp out while testing something is not, ever, going to give an evidence about anything. You just can't assume that at all. Reason ? Because in pvp you have to make sure that you target don't run away, no thorax pilot is going to be kitted to death running after a mwd rupture, which is your argument about the weakness of the thorax. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Balazs Simon |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:32:00 -
[728] Rax is good as it is... do not tuch it... - New sig coming soon.. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:32:00 -
[729]
I've answered why 8 are needed several times, actually. The extreme up-close dps is needed because it has to catch up on damage that it's been taking on the approach without being able to return any. I don't know how else to word it. Why are 10 mediums not enough? Because that's half the damage of 8 heavies. It's just not enough to get the job done. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:32:00 -
[730]
I've answered why 8 are needed several times, actually. The extreme up-close dps is needed because it has to catch up on damage that it's been taking on the approach without being able to return any. I don't know how else to word it. Why are 10 mediums not enough? Because that's half the damage of 8 heavies. It's just not enough to get the job done. |
 Balazs Simon Gallente Destructive Influence Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:32:00 -
[731] Rax is good as it is... do not tuch it... - POST WITH YOUR MAIN! New sig coming soon... This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the DICE Corporation. |
Adamus TorK |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:33:00 -
[732] chill guys, and adapt --------------------------------- Fear the arrows of the HUNs! |
 Adamus TorK Destructive Influence Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:33:00 -
[733] chill guys, and adapt --------------------------------- |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[734]
Actually, with some clever piloting, a Rupture pilot can easily kite within scramble range. Remember: as long as you keep outside of 2km (avoiding blasters) and move faster than an mwd 'rax (avoiding being webbed and outrunning the drones by default) then the thorax pilot has no choice but to be "kited to death." Just fit a 20km disruptor and it's game over for mr. overpowered thorax. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[735] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 20:37:39 So with no arguments from the tother side, we all agree that thorax fittgin with rails is as good as rupture then? Ok, so why would thorax need more drones then rupture? Argument about approach is totaly useless. I can say that rupture fitted with ac and thorax is with rails, and count how much damage i'll do with rails before rupture catches up. Once again
|
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[736]
Actually, with some clever piloting, a Rupture pilot can easily kite within scramble range. Remember: as long as you keep outside of 2km (avoiding blasters) and move faster than an mwd 'rax (avoiding being webbed and outrunning the drones by default) then the thorax pilot has no choice but to be "kited to death." Just fit a 20km disruptor and it's game over for mr. overpowered thorax. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[737] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 20:37:39 So with no arguments from the tother side, we all agree that thorax fittgin with rails is as good as rupture then? Ok, so why would thorax need more drones then rupture? Argument about approach is totaly useless. I can say that rupture fitted with ac and thorax is with rails, and count how much damage i'll do with rails before rupture catches up. Once again
|
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:47:00 -
[738]
My word against yours is "no argument from the other side?" I've already said that a thorax will have to dedicate more low slots and cpu to grid upgrades, where the rupture can add damage mods and tracking mods which, you'll find, quite easily tip the damage balance to the rupture at range. A range that will nullify the use of the drones. Rendering your argument useless because no smart thorax pilot is going to deny himself the firepower of his primary weapon. Which I've said before. But we're going in circles. You can take my word for it, you can run the numbers for yourself, or you can write me off as "wrong" without bothering. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:47:00 -
[739]
My word against yours is "no argument from the other side?" I've already said that a thorax will have to dedicate more low slots and cpu to grid upgrades, where the rupture can add damage mods and tracking mods which, you'll find, quite easily tip the damage balance to the rupture at range. A range that will nullify the use of the drones. Rendering your argument useless because no smart thorax pilot is going to deny himself the firepower of his primary weapon. Which I've said before. But we're going in circles. You can take my word for it, you can run the numbers for yourself, or you can write me off as "wrong" without bothering. |
Turin |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:57:00 -
[740] OMG! Quick! Someone call a WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMBULENCE. Stop the whining. STFU. Go play the damn game. Thorax is fine. |
 Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:57:00 -
[741] OMG! Quick! Someone call a WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMBULENCE. Stop the whining. STFU. Go play the damn game. Thorax is fine. ________________________________________________________ |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:01:00 -
[742]
Sorry but there is no adapt argument that will fly in this case. Thorax is severly imbalanced. Basically what your saying is the Thoraxes are grossly overpowered but like it or not shut up. Who made you king? Thorax users DON'T have to adapt because they have the full montey despite what the peanut gallery says. Currently, without a plate, the Thorax is still diverse, as much as any cruiser can be. But when it comes to Short range let me quote this dude Garreck :
Yet he nor anyone else has alluded to WHY a cruiser deserves THIS MUCH brutal damage and diversity. No cruiser has it so why should the Rax? Noone can answer that question. If the Thorax should have extreme damage up close then a 720mm Rupture should have extreme damage at range. This is clearly not the case. 650mm suck even more. 650mm IIs are pizz poor when compared to even dual 180 IIs. 650 IIs will put you inside scramble range and that is where the rax will start to bbq ur fries. 720mm IIs severly gimp your ship for pvp for anything but gatecamping for indies and nub frigs. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:01:00 -
[743]
Sorry but there is no adapt argument that will fly in this case. Thorax is severly imbalanced. Basically what your saying is the Thoraxes are grossly overpowered but like it or not shut up. Who made you king? Thorax users DON'T have to adapt because they have the full montey despite what the peanut gallery says. Currently, without a plate, the Thorax is still diverse, as much as any cruiser can be. But when it comes to Short range let me quote this dude Garreck :
Yet he nor anyone else has alluded to WHY a cruiser deserves THIS MUCH brutal damage and diversity. No cruiser has it so why should the Rax? Noone can answer that question. If the Thorax should have extreme damage up close then a 720mm Rupture should have extreme damage at range. This is clearly not the case. 650mm suck even more. 650mm IIs are pizz poor when compared to even dual 180 IIs. 650 IIs will put you inside scramble range and that is where the rax will start to bbq ur fries. 720mm IIs severly gimp your ship for pvp for anything but gatecamping for indies and nub frigs. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:04:00 -
[744]
what is your definition of fine? jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:04:00 -
[745]
what is your definition of fine? Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Christopher Multsanti |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:07:00 -
[746] 15 pages, hmmmmm. Why dont we just agree that the Thorax is overpowered and let CCP decdide how to nerf it. PS. check my vid, its in my sig. Thorax FTW! |
Christopher Multsanti Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:07:00 -
[747] 15 pages, hmmmmm. Why dont we just agree that the Thorax is overpowered and let CCP decdide how to nerf it. PS. check my vid, its in my sig. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it? EVIL SYNNs > Bob are the best, we have to pay them to use the plexs... |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:08:00 -
[748]
Actually, I have. Rupture has lower dps because it has more seconds to be doing its damage. Thorax has higher dps because it has fewer seconds to be doing its damage in. Do you see? If a rupture could do a thorax's dps at the range that a rupture can do it, nobody would stand a chance in hell because you'd never get close. With the thorax, you can vie for tactical superiority (ie, deny him the ability to get close) and hope to inflict as much damage as possible before he DOES get close. You keep the thorax at arms' length, it loses. You let it get close, you lose. 50 damage per second for 10 seconds is 500 damage. 100 damage per second for 5 seconds is 500 damage. OMG...but 100 dps is TWICE 50 dps!! That's not fair! Well...if you only have half as long to be doing said damage, maybe that's not as unfair a number as everyone thinks. My argument is simply that damage inflicted on the thorax before it can even open fire quite justifies the amount of damage a thorax can deal at close range. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:08:00 -
[749]
Actually, I have. Rupture has lower dps because it has more seconds to be doing its damage. Thorax has higher dps because it has fewer seconds to be doing its damage in. Do you see? If a rupture could do a thorax's dps at the range that a rupture can do it, nobody would stand a chance in hell because you'd never get close. With the thorax, you can vie for tactical superiority (ie, deny him the ability to get close) and hope to inflict as much damage as possible before he DOES get close. You keep the thorax at arms' length, it loses. You let it get close, you lose. 50 damage per second for 10 seconds is 500 damage. 100 damage per second for 5 seconds is 500 damage. OMG...but 100 dps is TWICE 50 dps!! That's not fair! Well...if you only have half as long to be doing said damage, maybe that's not as unfair a number as everyone thinks. My argument is simply that damage inflicted on the thorax before it can even open fire quite justifies the amount of damage a thorax can deal at close range. |
Will Basthard |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:10:00 -
[750]
I been following this thread for days. What most don't realize is that we all want the thorax to stay the same but realize that in doing so they would need massively boost all cruisers. This is a fat chance in hell to come to pass. Thus, Thorax needs the quick fix. Everyone will have to adapt to the new thorax. Its been far too long for this ship to be untouched from the bat of tomB. I say good riddance to 200m3 and hello to my collection of Caldari cruisers sitting in storage for the day I can actually have a change in hades to beat 'Rax pilot mono y mono. My skills don't suck but when you take even a blackbird vs a Thorax the day usually ends up w. 8 heavies giving you a short trip to a pod. ------ |
 Will Basthard Todmacher |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:10:00 -
[751]
I been following this thread for days. What most don't realize is that we all want the thorax to stay the same but realize that in doing so they would need massively boost all cruisers. This is a fat chance in hell to come to pass. Thus, Thorax needs the quick fix. Everyone will have to adapt to the new thorax. Its been far too long for this ship to be untouched from the bat of tomB. I say good riddance to 200m3 and hello to my collection of Caldari cruisers sitting in storage for the day I can actually have a change in hades to beat 'Rax pilot mono y mono. My skills don't suck but when you take even a blackbird vs a Thorax the day usually ends up w. 8 heavies giving you a short trip to a pod. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:11:00 -
[752] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 21:16:18
A mindblowingly convincing argument that the thorax should be nerfed. Because it's been discussed and defended for 15 pages. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:11:00 -
[753] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 21:16:18
A mindblowingly convincing argument that the thorax should be nerfed. Because it's been discussed and defended for 15 pages. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:12:00 -
[754]That still doesn't tell me why my stabber has only 2 scouts drones. But i guess that i'll get that when i get more sleep. Long day today... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:12:00 -
[755]That still doesn't tell me why my stabber has only 2 scouts drones. But i guess that i'll get that when i get more sleep. Long day today... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:18:00 -
[756]
Well if you are comparing a droneless thorax to a rupture....as I said before, arty takes no cap. Fit two small reppers rather than a couple of damage mods and you obviously can outcap the rax. Granted, the rupture would be hard pressed to solidify the kill - but that would work both ways and is always the case with long range salvos. Better to argue the issue on what is most commonly used on the 'rax, today - with plates in the game as thats what we have to deal with. That means small guns, blasters most likely. A 1600 plate, three hardners, a repper, web, scram, and an MWD. I'm sure there are a couple rax pilots fitting medium rails out there, but really now - have you ever been nailed by such a setup in a rupture? I'd be all for taking that 100m3 of dronespace and shifting it to the vexor though. 250m3 on that ship would bring it into play as much as the stabber. Haha, theres the thread. Nerf the stabber! |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:18:00 -
[757]
Well if you are comparing a droneless thorax to a rupture....as I said before, arty takes no cap. Fit two small reppers rather than a couple of damage mods and you obviously can outcap the rax. Granted, the rupture would be hard pressed to solidify the kill - but that would work both ways and is always the case with long range salvos. Better to argue the issue on what is most commonly used on the 'rax, today - with plates in the game as thats what we have to deal with. That means small guns, blasters most likely. A 1600 plate, three hardners, a repper, web, scram, and an MWD. I'm sure there are a couple rax pilots fitting medium rails out there, but really now - have you ever been nailed by such a setup in a rupture? I'd be all for taking that 100m3 of dronespace and shifting it to the vexor though. 250m3 on that ship would bring it into play as much as the stabber. Haha, theres the thread. Nerf the stabber! --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:26:00 -
[758]
Erm, no. I didn't change logic at all. I am trying to prove that it is better for a thorax to keep the plate and lose half the drones than the other way around. I believe i did it. As for you being succesful with your non plate thorax, i'd say go face some gank rupture without your plate and die... wait. No. People do not fit gank rupture because AC + plates makes it better overall, currently. Lose the plate on anything, you'll face the kind of rupture that does 200+ dps and you will not like it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:26:00 -
[759]
Erm, no. I didn't change logic at all. I am trying to prove that it is better for a thorax to keep the plate and lose half the drones than the other way around. I believe i did it. As for you being succesful with your non plate thorax, i'd say go face some gank rupture without your plate and die... wait. No. People do not fit gank rupture because AC + plates makes it better overall, currently. Lose the plate on anything, you'll face the kind of rupture that does 200+ dps and you will not like it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:29:00 -
[760]A blaster thorax without plate is vulnerable... to "gank setups", even to a gank-thorax with 200mm railguns. No point made about the drone bay here, it's a totally different rule of the game that you point out. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:29:00 -
[761]A blaster thorax without plate is vulnerable... to "gank setups", even to a gank-thorax with 200mm railguns. No point made about the drone bay here, it's a totally different rule of the game that you point out. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:32:00 -
[762]
How so ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:32:00 -
[763]
How so ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:35:00 -
[764]
Congratulation, you find a specific theoretical setup (that isn't viable either) that would beat a thorax in a 1 vs 1. Now, nobody said that the thorax was overpowered by such a margin that you couldn't find a specific to kill it. Kinda ruins that to be honest, nobody fit 4 * 720 or even 4 * 650 artillery and a mwd, that things doesn't hold a fight against anything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:35:00 -
[765]
Congratulation, you find a specific theoretical setup (that isn't viable either) that would beat a thorax in a 1 vs 1. Now, nobody said that the thorax was overpowered by such a margin that you couldn't find a specific to kill it. Kinda ruins that to be honest, nobody fit 4 * 720 or even 4 * 650 artillery and a mwd, that things doesn't hold a fight against anything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[766]
Sorta like talkin about a present day thorax pilot loading a full rack of med rails, or anyone with a pulse shooting at the thorax with 720s instead of the drones, or fighting a thorax at close range with 720s to begin with, or any of the other nifty stuff in this thread |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[767] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 21:57:47 I'll actually do the setups for you: Thorax: 5 * 200mm t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not all of the 375 cpu is used (weapon upgrades 5 required on top of electronic 5) Not all of the 1006.2 pg used (engineering 5 needed, no adv. weap. upgrades needed) Rupture: (650mm fit) 4 * 650 t2 & 2 heavy t2 1 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster & 1 empty slot 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not enough cpu to fit the last mid slot, not enough pg with engineering 5 to fit everything but it'll do with advanced weapon upgrade trained a few levels Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 - 40 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Rupture: (720mm fit) 4 * 720mm t2 & 2 rocket launcher t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Enough cpu, but require advanced weapon upgrade trained a lot (71 pg lacking without the skill, 1042 pg with the rcu2 and it need 1113 to fit) Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Ok, i did my best to come with comparable setups. I hope that i did that right, as i said i'll have to check it tomorrow. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[768]
Sorta like talkin about a present day thorax pilot loading a full rack of med rails, or anyone with a pulse shooting at the thorax with 720s instead of the drones, or fighting a thorax at close range with 720s to begin with, or any of the other nifty stuff in this thread --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[769] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 21:57:47 I'll actually do the setups for you: Thorax: 5 * 200mm t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not all of the 375 cpu is used (weapon upgrades 5 required on top of electronic 5) Not all of the 1006.2 pg used (engineering 5 needed, no adv. weap. upgrades needed) Rupture: (650mm fit) 4 * 650 t2 & 2 heavy t2 1 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster & 1 empty slot 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not enough cpu to fit the last mid slot, not enough pg with engineering 5 to fit everything but it'll do with advanced weapon upgrade trained a few levels Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 - 40 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Rupture: (720mm fit) 4 * 720mm t2 & 2 rocket launcher t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Enough cpu, but require advanced weapon upgrade trained a lot (71 pg lacking without the skill, 1042 pg with the rcu2 and it need 1113 to fit) Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Ok, i did my best to come with comparable setups. I hope that i did that right, as i said i'll have to check it tomorrow. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:50:00 -
[770]
I know, i find all this quite annoying to be honest. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:50:00 -
[771]
I know, i find all this quite annoying to be honest. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:56:00 -
[772]
Better than arguing about politics |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:56:00 -
[773]
Better than arguing about politics --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:07:00 -
[774]
You accept ship flight time/drone flight time as a reduction of damage accross the fight, but forget about the tracking problems of long range guns at close range as a reduction of damage over time. Why is that ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:07:00 -
[775]
You accept ship flight time/drone flight time as a reduction of damage accross the fight, but forget about the tracking problems of long range guns at close range as a reduction of damage over time. Why is that ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:19:00 -
[776] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 22:20:18
A fair question. To answer the question, I'll have to ask you to try shooting at a thorax with its mwd running. I'll be honest: I've never done it in a rupture. But I have done it with 425mm railguns. I can hit an mwd-ing cruiser up to just inside 10km. Now, that's with large turrets that track slowly. With medium turrets that track slowly I'm sure you'll be able to get solid hits right up to the point where the thorax turns off its mwd at very close range. Obviously at that point if you haven't destroyed it, you've probably lost unless your launchers can somehow save you. But that's a point of combat experience. Much like I had to learn when a target was close enough for me to engage without dying before reaching the target, non-thorax users need to learn when a thorax starts too close for them to try destroying it. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:19:00 -
[777] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 22:20:18
A fair question. To answer the question, I'll have to ask you to try shooting at a thorax with its mwd running. I'll be honest: I've never done it in a rupture. But I have done it with 425mm railguns. I can hit an mwd-ing cruiser up to just inside 10km. Now, that's with large turrets that track slowly. With medium turrets that track slowly I'm sure you'll be able to get solid hits right up to the point where the thorax turns off its mwd at very close range. Obviously at that point if you haven't destroyed it, you've probably lost unless your launchers can somehow save you. But that's a point of combat experience. Much like I had to learn when a target was close enough for me to engage without dying before reaching the target, non-thorax users need to learn when a thorax starts too close for them to try destroying it. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:30:00 -
[778] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 22:36:20
So why exactly does it needs so much damage at that point ? That's the thing that is puzzling me really, if you get inside the long range guns, 3, 8 or 28 drones won't make a difference except how fast the other ship (the other cruiser, say) is going to die. But it will make a difference in you meet another close range ship, say my poor stabber, because it need as much damage up close as you do. For me, the issue about balance is more related to close range ship that long range ship, hence why i don't get this stuffs about 720mm artillery rupture and 200mm railgun thorax. I just did the math "if it helps" but can't see futher than that. Now, that's for inter-class combat. How about, say, assault ship (frigates) or even battleship ? Isn't the "much needed firepower" you speak off a bit to much ? That why i rest my case, about an inbalance "inside the class" and "outside a class". I would still love the thorax with 10 mediums, but that would give me a reason to use my stabber sometimes Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Oh, yeah, i'll just add that. I'm not randomly getting from a "nerf the thorax drones bay" to a "give me more drone bay on my stabber". That example was to try to get a point more clear, i already said why i don't think that "boost *damage* of every cruiser will be better than nerf the rax" is going to be an improvement. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:30:00 -
[779] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 22:42:20
So why exactly does it needs so much damage at that point ? That's the thing that is puzzling me really, if you get inside the long range guns, 3, 8 or 28 drones won't make a difference except how fast the other ship (the other cruiser, say) is going to die. But it will make a difference if you meet another close range ship, say my poor stabber, because it need as much damage up close as you do. For me, the issue about balance is more related to close range ship that long range ship, hence why i don't get this stuffs about 720mm artillery rupture and 200mm railgun thorax. I just did the math "if it helps" but can't see futher than that. Now, that's for inter-class combat. How about, say, assault ship (frigates) or even battleship ? Isn't the "much needed firepower" you speak of a bit too much ? That's why i rest my case, about an inbalance "inside the class" and "outside a class". I would still love the thorax with 10 mediums, but that would give me a reason to use my stabber sometimes as it would no shamefully die to another close range cruiser, for the sake of the argument you bring about the "much needed damage". Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Oh, yeah, i'll just add that. I'm not randomly getting from a "nerf the thorax drones bay" to a "give me more drone bay on my stabber". That example was to try to get a point more clear, i already said why i don't think that "boost *damage* of every cruiser will be better than nerf the rax" is going to be an improvement. Edit2,3,4: spelling errors 4tw. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:41:00 -
[780]
The stabber can kite like a son-of-a-gun. Against a thorax it'll want an mwd because the thorax will be using one. Against other ships, it doesn't even need that. I'm not an expert on minnie ships, but I surely fly against 'em a lot. 2 Assault frigates can make real quick work of a non-plated thorax. Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates. An assault frig can easily have 1k armor, great resists, solid damage, and move at over 500m/s. And the 'rax's blasters? Well, unless the frigates are orbiting at 2km... Battleships can fry a non-plate thorax outside 20km real quick, and 6 heavy drones will do a non-plate thorax well before that thorax can do a battleship. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:41:00 -
[781]
The stabber can kite like a son-of-a-gun. Against a thorax it'll want an mwd because the thorax will be using one. Against other ships, it doesn't even need that. I'm not an expert on minnie ships, but I surely fly against 'em a lot. 2 Assault frigates can make real quick work of a non-plated thorax. Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates. An assault frig can easily have 1k armor, great resists, solid damage, and move at over 500m/s. And the 'rax's blasters? Well, unless the frigates are orbiting at 2km... Battleships can fry a non-plate thorax outside 20km real quick, and 6 heavy drones will do a non-plate thorax well before that thorax can do a battleship. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:53:00 -
[782] "Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates." No they don't ;.; heavy drones have better tracking and signature resolution than small pulse lasers... if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately) a plated frigate/interceptor has barely enough time to run if she wants to live. Non-plated frigate or 'ceptor, you're pretty much getting just small lag spike when drones get deployed, and then find yourself in the pod. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:53:00 -
[783] "Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates." No they don't ;.; heavy drones have better tracking and signature resolution than small pulse lasers... if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately) a plated frigate/interceptor has barely enough time to run if she wants to live. Non-plated frigate or 'ceptor, you're pretty much getting just small lag spike when drones get deployed, and then find yourself in the pod. |
Joshua Keeling |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:56:00 -
[784] Big drones do have a hard time against frigates. A frigate can outrun them oh so easily. You need to web a inty to hit it with heavy drones, the guns arent the issue, it's the range. Even medium drones can have trouble. Light drones are the only drones that can successfully chase around an inty, with any certainty anyway. Josh |
 Joshua Keeling Gallente The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:56:00 -
[785] Big drones do have a hard time against frigates. A frigate can outrun them oh so easily. You need to web a inty to hit it with heavy drones, the guns arent the issue, it's the range. Even medium drones can have trouble. Light drones are the only drones that can successfully chase around an inty, with any certainty anyway. Josh Josh |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:00:00 -
[786] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 23:05:24 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 23:00:30
The stabber is a weird ship, it is an awesome design yet it is very hard to get it working good. Yes, you can do nasty tricks with 650mm, including some kiting, but you will never do decent damage. Stabber get only one damage bonus (instead of the two it should get for projectiles to perform ok), 650mm are hard to fit for pants damage, and you will need 3 pds in the low so say bye to damage mods. On top of that you can't tank it, 3/3 mid/low don't cut it. 425mm aren't worth fitting and can't be fitted, 220mm are nice as are dual180mm. Only problem is that web range is exactly your falloff, so unless you want to be webbed in a ship that only relies on speed to survive this is going to be though to scratch some paint. You can ditch projectile for lasers, then you think about it and say, screw that, i'll fit pulse on a nano maller or a nano thorax... :/ All that to say, yes it is a nice ship, but to some extent telling that thorax needs its drones to work correctly is as if i were saying, the stabber needs 3 times its current falloff because it just cannot afford to be webbed. Sure, it would be nice to have, and would make it much better, but i guess we can't all have whatever our ship *needs* to work correctly. What j0sephine said. And, besides, that's just my problem, with so much drones there is little incentive to fit blasters even on a close range thorax, so fitting frig guns on a non-plated thorax is still something that can be done. And then, you have a ship that still work correctly at close range and is a serious threat to frigs. But that's an old point, yet again, so disregard this. I still think that it would be nice to make thorax pilots have to do a real sacrifice when not fitting blasters. That is something i agree with. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:00:00 -
[787] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 23:13:43
The stabber is a weird ship, it is an awesome design yet it is very hard to get it working good. Yes, you can do nasty tricks with 650mm, including some kiting, but you will never do decent damage. Stabber get only one damage bonus (instead of the two it should get for projectiles to perform ok), 650mm are hard to fit for pants damage, and you will need 3 pds in the low so say bye to damage mods. On top of that you can't tank it, 3/3 mid/low don't cut it. 425mm aren't worth fitting and can't be fitted, 220mm are nice as are dual180mm. Only problem is that web range is exactly your falloff, so unless you want to be webbed in a ship that only relies on speed to survive this is going to be though to scratch some paint. You can ditch projectile for lasers, then you think about it and say, screw that, i'll fit pulse on a nano maller or a nano thorax... :/ All that to say, yes it is a nice ship, but to some extent telling that thorax needs its drones to work correctly is as if i were saying, the stabber needs 3 times its current falloff because it just cannot afford to be webbed. Sure, it would be nice to have, and would make it much better, but i guess we can't all have whatever our ship *needs* to work correctly. What j0sephine said. And, besides, that's just my problem, with so much drones there is little incentive to fit blasters even on a close range thorax, so fitting frig guns on a non-plated thorax is still something that can be done. And then, you have a ship that still work correctly at close range and is a serious threat to frigs. But that's an old point, yet again, so disregard this. I still think that it would be nice to make thorax pilots have to do a real sacrifice when not fitting blasters. That is something i agree with. Edit: But the thorax don't *need* its drones there. So, against which ships/ classes of ship does it (finally) needs its drones ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:01:00 -
[788] "Big drones do have a hard time against frigates. A frigate can outrun them oh so easily. You need to web a inty to hit it with heavy drones, the guns arent the issue, it's the range." That's why i said "if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately)" -.o Yeah, they won't work on interceptor that goes 4 km/sec at 15 km radius. They'll toast anything that gets closer than 9-10 km in a blink of the eye though if you launch them at right time, and plenty frigates do need to get there if they want their job done... >>; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:01:00 -
[789] "Big drones do have a hard time against frigates. A frigate can outrun them oh so easily. You need to web a inty to hit it with heavy drones, the guns arent the issue, it's the range." That's why i said "if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately)" -.o Yeah, they won't work on interceptor that goes 4 km/sec at 15 km radius. They'll toast anything that gets closer than 9-10 km in a blink of the eye though if you launch them at right time, and plenty frigates do need to get there if they want their job done... >>; |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:03:00 -
[790]
Not every frig can afford to fit an mwd, especially assault frig. For them heavy drones are a serious problem. As i said previously, an bunch of ogres will slaughter a close range rifter, not webbed, not nossed. Simply because it is not possible to run a mwd at close range and do damage. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:03:00 -
[791]
Not every frig can afford to fit an mwd, especially assault frig. For them heavy drones are a serious problem. As i said previously, an bunch of ogres will slaughter a close range rifter, not webbed, not nossed. Simply because it is not possible to run a mwd at close range and do damage. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.27 00:10:00 -
[792] I want an answer as to why the Thorax DESERVES the damage it gets when you compare it to other cruisers. Don't give me some roleplay, i luv my rax crap. I suffered through over 6 months and months of tracking problems on Large Projectiles with the last turret overhaul for someone to try that crap. If the Thorax DESERVES it so does my Typhoon, my stabber, my Torp Raven ( cause according to your theory based on the Megapulse Geddon I still don't have enough ) and any other short range combat ship. My wolf needs either a 20% damage bonus or 50m3 of drone space... m'kay and a cruise missile point on my jaguar would not be too much for freaking ask would it? jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.27 00:10:00 -
[793] I want an answer as to why the Thorax DESERVES the damage it gets when you compare it to other cruisers. Don't give me some roleplay, i luv my rax crap. I suffered through over 6 months and months of tracking problems on Large Projectiles with the last turret overhaul for someone to try that crap. If the Thorax DESERVES it so does my Typhoon, my stabber, my Torp Raven ( cause according to your theory based on the Megapulse Geddon I still don't have enough ) and any other short range combat ship. My wolf needs either a 20% damage bonus or 50m3 of drone space... m'kay and a cruise missile point on my jaguar would not be too much for freaking ask would it? Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.27 04:18:00 -
[794] Garreck You know what? You r right, Rupture is great ship, thorax is inline, its all ok. Now please, PLEASE write to devs about it, because for some reason they think that rupture mk2 should get 125 grid and 25 cpu bonus while rax gains nothing. But we all know that rupture is super good, good as thorax, so tell devs that any boost to rupture mk2 will be disbalance.Pretty please, with sugar on top. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.27 04:18:00 -
[795] Garreck You know what? You r right, Rupture is great ship, thorax is inline, its all ok. Now please, PLEASE write to devs about it, because for some reason they think that rupture mk2 should get 125 grid and 25 cpu bonus while rax gains nothing. But we all know that rupture is super good, good as thorax, so tell devs that any boost to rupture mk2 will be disbalance.Pretty please, with sugar on top. |
 Slithereen Amarr |
Posted - 2005.08.27 05:16:00 -
[796] My opinion. Increase Thorax grid and CPU; reduce drone bay to 100m3. Increase shield/armor/hull HP. Increase Vexor drone bay to 150m3. Increase shield/armor/hull HP. Increase Brutix drone bay to 200m3 (exchange with the Thorax). Increase shield/armor/hull HP of all cruisers. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius. |
Lorth |
Posted - 2005.08.27 05:20:00 -
[797] Sigh... this has been going on far to long. Simply put, if you reduce the thorax's drne bay by half, it won't be as good as it is now. Though, it will be as good as all the other cruisers. Which is far more important. Yes cruisers as a whole need to be better then they are currently. And yes you can kill a thorax with the right fittings and ship easily. However, as of right now, the thorax wins more fights then it losses, simply because of its drone bay. Reduce the drone bay, and it now wins as many fights as it should. Once we have an even playing field, then we can perhaps work on balancing the cruiser class as a whole. Any boost to cruiser as it stands now, would still leave the thorax as the perferd cruiser. Though I write this with cruiser 5, and max drone skills, I am reasonable enough to see when a ship is unbalanced. Even if I like to fly it. |
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.08.27 05:20:00 -
[798] Sigh... this has been going on far to long. Simply put, if you reduce the thorax's drne bay by half, it won't be as good as it is now. Though, it will be as good as all the other cruisers. Which is far more important. Yes cruisers as a whole need to be better then they are currently. And yes you can kill a thorax with the right fittings and ship easily. However, as of right now, the thorax wins more fights then it losses, simply because of its drone bay. Reduce the drone bay, and it now wins as many fights as it should. Once we have an even playing field, then we can perhaps work on balancing the cruiser class as a whole. Any boost to cruiser as it stands now, would still leave the thorax as the perferd cruiser. Though I write this with cruiser 5, and max drone skills, I am reasonable enough to see when a ship is unbalanced. Even if I like to fly it. |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.27 19:35:00 -
[799] Well said Lorth,also good job on keeping this debate running naughty boy.We can't nerf the plates (just been boosted) to keep the rax's bay,and that will also mean the death of cruiser combat overall.When any cruiser dies to a thorax,even if both of them use 1600mm plates,the use of smaller plates on cruisers will just mean faster death for the non-thorax pilot.And insta-death for any cruiser against a BS,so we can complain alltogether that they are useless again and need another boost. It's also more efficient in relation to programming and man-hours spent balancing the game to just bring the rax on par with the rest,than boost them all and have BS pilots cry (and rightfuly so) cause a tech1 cruiser can kill them with minimal effort.A cruiser boost may also bring a boost to HAC's(otherwise why fly a 40-70mil ship when a 7mil one can do the job),so BS's will get boosted as well to stand a decent chance against them,to the point they insta-kill cruisers again.It's a balancing nightmare,while on the other hand we can just cut down on that god forsaken drone bay and be done with it.I say let's just do some chop-chop and leave the devs with some time to fix another issue. I can't believe that some people are willing to totally mess up game mechanics by boosting/nerfing an imbalance.You start with an imbalance and boost/nerf EQUALLY across the board(cause god forbid the whines if the rupture gets 7 highs and manages to fit 5x720mm,or a moa can pull off a decent volley damage),guess what?You'll still end up with an imbalance. Nifty little drawing thingy coming up for you,showing supposed nerfing of oversized plates.In a simplified approach,let's just say that the slider represents the (DPS+armor HP)/(total fitting cost) ratio,as a measure of the setup's usefullness (damage and tank-wise) against the difficulty of having spare grid/cpu to cram other nifty things in there. We're referring to plate setups with small guns,or the smallest of medium guns (e.g 180mm autocannons).The effect of the 8 heavies on DPS is represented by a couple of notches on the slider in advantage of the rax. If we can't fit 1600mm plates,our armor HP will go down,thus the slider will move to the left,for all cruisers.However,the (DPS+armor HP) factor will still be higher for the rax. The slider will not move too much to the left,since a smaller plate means lower fitting cost overall,however the main issue is that rax is still on top due to the fitting-free damage of 8 heavy drones.With the lower fitting cost on 800mm plates,the gap may be more than 2 notches in favor of the thorax,since the drones still require no grid/cpu at all. I could make it all to scale,with proper values and stuff,but please don't make me start crunching the numbers and coming here with origin graphs(i'm a physics student in an exam period ),as it is more or less obvious to anyone with a slight understanding of mathematics.Cruisers with 1600mm plates Bad------------|---Good (Thorax) Bad---------|------Good (Random non-rax tech1 cruiser) Cruisers with 800mm plates Bad---------|------Good (Thorax) Bad------|---------Good (Random non-rax tech1 cruiser) When people who fly the rax,between a bunch of other cruisers,complain that it's too much,then something is wrong.Mysteriously,it's people who can also fly the deimos that mostly support reducing the drone bay.In the words of an alliance mate: "I'm not touching the Thorax till it's nerfed back to reality.And that's coming from a specialised gallente pilot." Guess he finds it disturbing training for a t2 ship whose t1 equivalent performs just as well,with a fraction of the cost. |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.27 19:35:00 -
[800] Well said Lorth,also good job on keeping this debate running naughty boy.We can't nerf the plates (just been boosted) to keep the rax's bay,and that will also mean the death of cruiser combat overall.When any cruiser dies to a thorax,even if both of them use 1600mm plates,the use of smaller plates on cruisers will just mean faster death for the non-thorax pilot.And insta-death for any cruiser against a BS,so we can complain alltogether that they are useless again and need another boost. It's also more efficient in relation to programming and man-hours spent balancing the game to just bring the rax on par with the rest,than boost them all and have BS pilots cry (and rightfuly so) cause a tech1 cruiser can kill them with minimal effort.A cruiser boost may also bring a boost to HAC's(otherwise why fly a 40-70mil ship when a 7mil one can do the job),so BS's will get boosted as well to stand a decent chance against them,to the point they insta-kill cruisers again.It's a balancing nightmare,while on the other hand we can just cut down on that god forsaken drone bay and be done with it.I say let's just do some chop-chop and leave the devs with some time to fix another issue. I can't believe that some people are willing to totally mess up game mechanics by boosting/nerfing an imbalance.You start with an imbalance and boost/nerf EQUALLY across the board(cause god forbid the whines if the rupture gets 7 highs and manages to fit 5x720mm,or a moa can pull off a decent volley damage),guess what?You'll still end up with an imbalance. Nifty little drawing thingy coming up for you,showing supposed nerfing of oversized plates.In a simplified approach,let's just say that the slider represents the (DPS+armor HP)/(total fitting cost) ratio,as a measure of the setup's usefullness (damage and tank-wise) against the difficulty of having spare grid/cpu to cram other nifty things in there. We're referring to plate setups with small guns,or the smallest of medium guns (e.g 180mm autocannons).The effect of the 8 heavies on DPS is represented by a couple of notches on the slider in advantage of the rax. If we can't fit 1600mm plates,our armor HP will go down,thus the slider will move to the left,for all cruisers.However,the (DPS+armor HP) factor will still be higher for the rax. The slider will not move too much to the left,since a smaller plate means lower fitting cost overall,however the main issue is that rax is still on top due to the fitting-free damage of 8 heavy drones.With the lower fitting cost on 800mm plates,the gap may be more than 2 notches in favor of the thorax,since the drones still require no grid/cpu at all. I could make it all to scale,with proper values and stuff,but please don't make me start crunching the numbers and coming here with origin graphs(i'm a physics student in an exam period ),as it is more or less obvious to anyone with a slight understanding of mathematics.Cruisers with 1600mm plates Bad------------|---Good (Thorax) Bad---------|------Good (Random non-rax tech1 cruiser) Cruisers with 800mm plates Bad---------|------Good (Thorax) Bad------|---------Good (Random non-rax tech1 cruiser) When people who fly the rax,between a bunch of other cruisers,complain that it's too much,then something is wrong.Mysteriously,it's people who can also fly the deimos that mostly support reducing the drone bay.In the words of an alliance mate: "I'm not touching the Thorax till it's nerfed back to reality.And that's coming from a specialised gallente pilot." Guess he finds it disturbing training for a t2 ship whose t1 equivalent performs just as well,with a fraction of the cost. |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.27 20:42:00 -
[801]
800mm and 1600mm plate = battleship armour = oversized. So would be acceptable then for the rax to lose its drone bay, and be able to fit a rack of medium guns and 1600mm plate? Being as its supposed to fit cruiser weapons. So lets allow all cruisers to be able to fit a full rack of the lowest t2 medium gun, and 1600mm plate (or for the shield tankers.. lowest t2 weapon and large shield extenders.) ... but wait... i can only see people saying this cruiser or that cruiser is overpowered. The easy soloution is to prevent ships from using oversized plate... so that means cruisers.. no more fitting battleship plate, and frigs ... no more cruiser plate. By doing this, the thorax goes back to being its old paper thin self.. (which was a lot of fun to fly..) |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.27 20:42:00 -
[802]
800mm and 1600mm plate = battleship armour = oversized. So would be acceptable then for the rax to lose its drone bay, and be able to fit a rack of medium guns and 1600mm plate? Being as its supposed to fit cruiser weapons. So lets allow all cruisers to be able to fit a full rack of the lowest t2 medium gun, and 1600mm plate (or for the shield tankers.. lowest t2 weapon and large shield extenders.) ... but wait... i can only see people saying this cruiser or that cruiser is overpowered. The easy soloution is to prevent ships from using oversized plate... so that means cruisers.. no more fitting battleship plate, and frigs ... no more cruiser plate. By doing this, the thorax goes back to being its old paper thin self.. (which was a lot of fun to fly..) |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.27 21:01:00 -
[803] Losing the plate still doesn't account for the 2 notches on the slider above....guess i'll have to do the numbers after all *sigh*.... I'm really busy with exams at uni till early october,hope they reduce the bay till then so i don't have to do the graphs |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.27 21:01:00 -
[804] Losing the plate still doesn't account for the 2 notches on the slider above....guess i'll have to do the numbers after all *sigh*.... I'm really busy with exams at uni till early october,hope they reduce the bay till then so i don't have to do the graphs |
Ekscalybur |
Posted - 2005.08.29 04:23:00 -
[805] This thread has gone on forever, but I feel the need to add to it. I left a game where certain classes were left overpowered with the devs giving many clues they had zero intention of bringing them back in line with the rest of the game. I'm a newb, don't even have 1 million skill points. I got my Thorax just a week ago, its my second cruiser (Osprey being my first). Even with my limited skills, I can fit a good tank on it, and still send out a very good deal of firepower thanks to decent gun skills and the drones. If I can do that with barely getting into the skills needed to max out cruisers, something is wrong. I should only be able to do one of those two well at the same time. But its probably not the Thorax that's the problem, at least not in my eyes. Its the drones. Drones are free firepower. It seems to me that they should get a missile type fix. With very little time spent on drone training, I don't have to worry about my ships ability to deal damage, I can just rely on that box of free firepower the game calls a drone bay. That leaves the ships slots left for tanking/Ewar. The fix could probably be a slew of new skills that will manage the drones damage and tracking abilities, and require the ues of modules to boost their range and maybe numbers you can control so you can't fit an entire ship for tanking and still deal tremendous firepower. BTW, I'd still love my Thorax if you halved the drone bay, or removed the ability to load heavy drones in it. |
 Ekscalybur |
Posted - 2005.08.29 04:23:00 -
[806] This thread has gone on forever, but I feel the need to add to it. I left a game where certain classes were left overpowered with the devs giving many clues they had zero intention of bringing them back in line with the rest of the game. I'm a newb, don't even have 1 million skill points. I got my Thorax just a week ago, its my second cruiser (Osprey being my first). Even with my limited skills, I can fit a good tank on it, and still send out a very good deal of firepower thanks to decent gun skills and the drones. If I can do that with barely getting into the skills needed to max out cruisers, something is wrong. I should only be able to do one of those two well at the same time. But its probably not the Thorax that's the problem, at least not in my eyes. Its the drones. Drones are free firepower. It seems to me that they should get a missile type fix. With very little time spent on drone training, I don't have to worry about my ships ability to deal damage, I can just rely on that box of free firepower the game calls a drone bay. That leaves the ships slots left for tanking/Ewar. The fix could probably be a slew of new skills that will manage the drones damage and tracking abilities, and require the ues of modules to boost their range and maybe numbers you can control so you can't fit an entire ship for tanking and still deal tremendous firepower. BTW, I'd still love my Thorax if you halved the drone bay, or removed the ability to load heavy drones in it. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.29 05:54:00 -
[807] Drones, unlike missiles or guns, have a weakness, they can be destroyed. This single weakness makes sure that drone carriers don't have an extreme advantage over other ships. |
Yslath |
Posted - 2005.08.29 05:54:00 -
[808] Edited by: Yslath on 29/08/2005 06:05:56 I'm Minmatar, but all I fly are Gallente ships (with the exception of the Vigil, for its wonderful speed, and maybe the Rifter, I like that one too). I also have a Vexor, and a Brutix. I fly my Vexor all the time, but I think it needs a bit of a drone oriented beefing. Maybe a medium drone damage bonus? I love my Thorax, but I think it is way out of its place. That 200 m3 drone bay more belongs on the Brutix, and the Brutixs' 100 m3 belongs on the Thorax. Drones are the Gallentes thing, and having a battlecruiser with that small of a drone bay is pertty sad. Even 150 or 175 would be wonderful. As I have never flown any of the T2 cruisers or the faction Thorax, I don't know about them. Never really engaged in combat in my Thorax either, most of my experience is from the rats. But one thing is for sure, the Thorax goes beyond its bounds by being the race drone carrier, where the Vexor should have its place. Also, speaking of drone carriers, I think the Arbitrator needs some beef too! Would love to have one, but my Vexor seems to out-class it in every way. My final conclusion? I'd like to see the Thorax drone bay reduced to 100, Brutix increased between 150-200, and the Vexor needs some kind of a drone bonus. But wouldn't that also mean the Dominix would need one aswell? I have one of those too, and it's a sexy beast. Maybe just increasing the medium-ranged capeabilities of the Vexor would be good to bring the guns on par with a nice average drone range, like 35 km. No no, that'd be too much! Perhaps a drone speed bonus? Maybe a drone bay increasee to 170 (and not 175! that extra five m3 makes a big difference between medium and heavy drones). It's dangerous ground we tread on with this. But the Thorax's drone bay is pretty big. (and yes, I already know the Dominix and Vexor have drone bonuses. I was assuming this was obvious, but I started worrying after I had posted that someone would be a smartass) |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.29 05:54:00 -
[809] Drones, unlike missiles or guns, have a weakness, they can be destroyed. This single weakness makes sure that drone carriers don't have an extreme advantage over other ships. |
 Yslath Minmatar Bank Of Imperial Order The Imperial Order |
Posted - 2005.08.29 05:54:00 -
[810] Edited by: Yslath on 29/08/2005 06:05:56 I'm Minmatar, but all I fly are Gallente ships (with the exception of the Vigil, for its wonderful speed, and maybe the Rifter, I like that one too). I also have a Vexor, and a Brutix. I fly my Vexor all the time, but I think it needs a bit of a drone oriented beefing. Maybe a medium drone damage bonus? I love my Thorax, but I think it is way out of its place. That 200 m3 drone bay more belongs on the Brutix, and the Brutixs' 100 m3 belongs on the Thorax. Drones are the Gallentes thing, and having a battlecruiser with that small of a drone bay is pertty sad. Even 150 or 175 would be wonderful. As I have never flown any of the T2 cruisers or the faction Thorax, I don't know about them. Never really engaged in combat in my Thorax either, most of my experience is from the rats. But one thing is for sure, the Thorax goes beyond its bounds by being the race drone carrier, where the Vexor should have its place. Also, speaking of drone carriers, I think the Arbitrator needs some beef too! Would love to have one, but my Vexor seems to out-class it in every way. My final conclusion? I'd like to see the Thorax drone bay reduced to 100, Brutix increased between 150-200, and the Vexor needs some kind of a drone bonus. But wouldn't that also mean the Dominix would need one aswell? I have one of those too, and it's a sexy beast. Maybe just increasing the medium-ranged capeabilities of the Vexor would be good to bring the guns on par with a nice average drone range, like 35 km. No no, that'd be too much! Perhaps a drone speed bonus? Maybe a drone bay increasee to 170 (and not 175! that extra five m3 makes a big difference between medium and heavy drones). It's dangerous ground we tread on with this. But the Thorax's drone bay is pretty big. (and yes, I already know the Dominix and Vexor have drone bonuses. I was assuming this was obvious, but I started worrying after I had posted that someone would be a smartass) |
DigitalCommunist |
Posted - 2005.08.29 06:29:00 -
[811] A lot of stupid suggestions and nonsensical whines in this thread on both sides. Simply swap the drone bay of the brutix and the thorax. Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. |
 DigitalCommunist Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.29 06:29:00 -
[812] A lot of stupid suggestions and nonsensical whines in this thread on both sides. Simply swap the drone bay of the brutix and the thorax. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
MrRookie |
Posted - 2005.08.29 07:04:00 -
[813]
word! _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877 |
 MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L |
Posted - 2005.08.29 07:04:00 -
[814]
word! *guy being attacked by a pirat in a complex
|
SULAN BARHIR |
Posted - 2005.08.29 10:31:00 -
[815] oh my god please end this... 16 pages for a single thread is torture... even for a cruiser pilot |
SULAN BARHIR |
Posted - 2005.08.29 10:31:00 -
[816] oh yeah... leave the rx alone. Alone I tell ya ! |
 SULAN BARHIR Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2005.08.29 10:31:00 -
[817] oh my god please end this... 16 pages for a single thread is torture... even for a cruiser pilot |
SULAN BARHIR Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2005.08.29 10:31:00 -
[818] oh yeah... leave the rx alone. Alone I tell ya ! |
K3NDY |
Posted - 2005.08.29 11:03:00 -
[819] please take no notice of this thread ccp, thorax is a good cruiser, TRAIN SKILLS TO FLY ONE U WHINERS! |
 K3NDY Empire Huggers Anonymous |
Posted - 2005.08.29 11:03:00 -
[820] please take no notice of this thread ccp, thorax is a good cruiser, TRAIN SKILLS TO FLY ONE U WHINERS!  FOR THE CRIME IM ABOUT TO COMMIT, MAY EVE MAKE ME TRUELY THANKFUL Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
DarK |
Posted - 2005.08.29 11:36:00 -
[821] Take no note of this man, he is without clue and uses a "3" instead of an "e". So are you saying there should be 1 uber ship that everyone should fly? right? /me smacks forehead |
DarK STK Scientific |
Posted - 2005.08.29 11:36:00 -
[822] Take no note of this man, he is without clue and uses a "3" instead of an "e". So are you saying there should be 1 uber ship that everyone should fly? right? /me smacks forehead |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.29 13:39:00 -
[823]
Shame the problem with the rax is its use of oversized plates. But alas, too many people refuse to see it, and would rather babble on about how overpowered the rax is, without taking the time to realise that without the plate its an easy kill. But alas, no doub't the rax will gets its drone bay nerf and the oversized plates will get their nerf.. and everyone will be left with another useless ship. This will be shortly followed by another post about some other ship is overpowered, and more people going on until thats nerfed.. and soon PvP will be done in shuttles with smacktalk as the primary weapon. |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.29 13:39:00 -
[824]
Shame the problem with the rax is its use of oversized plates. But alas, too many people refuse to see it, and would rather babble on about how overpowered the rax is, without taking the time to realise that without the plate its an easy kill. But alas, no doub't the rax will gets its drone bay nerf and the oversized plates will get their nerf.. and everyone will be left with another useless ship. This will be shortly followed by another post about some other ship is overpowered, and more people going on until thats nerfed.. and soon PvP will be done in shuttles with smacktalk as the primary weapon. |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.29 13:56:00 -
[825] Oh my.. is this thread still going on? Well then, as one of the rax users, here is how i see the problem: 1) The power of the 'rax (or any other drone using ship for that matter) is that people do not fit against drones. Why would they? Big ships ruled the sky for so long, noone thought that a cruiser sized ship can hold out long enough for its drones ot have an effect. Now that there are ways to prolong the life of even tech one cruisers, people realize the pain drones can mean. IMO: This is how it should have been for a long time (ship structure / shield / armor x 10 anyone? - while keeping the current damage leveles) 2) 1600mm plates. I guess these were never meant to be used on cruisers. Ironically, for some cruisers these plates meant resurrection in the world of HACs, AFs and BSes. For me, BIGGER != better and BIGGER should automatically win against smaller ones. So, a cruiser can fit an 1600 plate? What then? It sacrifices 90% of its powergrid to do so. Does it mean that Battleships are obsolete now? That they are suddenly outtanked by cruisers? No way. A BS can fit multiple armor plates, and still have a tremendous firepower. HACs can fit them as well and because of their resistances the effects of an armor plate are a lot bigger. Sure, only drone carriers can use plates from cruisers, as they rely on drones for the firepower, but those drone carriers HAVE to use plates, otherwise they wouldnt live long enough for their drones to have an effect. I see more and more frigs and cruiser fitting these plates of various sizes, and i think it is a good thing. It adds an element of uncertainity to the fight, that was missing until now, while still keeping the balance between ship classes. I wonder when i'll see the first battleships to really make use of these modules. 3) The combination of the two: A ship that has one of its big advantages in drones fitted with 1600mm plate. If you go unprepared, it can kill you. The truth however is, that it is painfully easy to counter it. It is a suprisingly effective combination, because people do not have defenses against drones, other than the -kill the drone carrier fast-, which in this case just isnt going to work. There was a time, when drones were neglected, because ships that relied on drones to deal damage died too fast. Those times are over. There will be a time, when people learn to defend against drones / or CCP comes to nerf them. A period of death will follow, when thorax pilots realize that their tactic has been countered. Then a new 'I win' strategy will come up in someone's brain, people will mirror it, and this discussion will start again, as the pattern is - since the start of eve - "OMG, <Insert ship name here> with <Insert Weapons / mods here> are way too powerful. Nerf them". Variety is what makes EVE the great game it is. That it is not skills or ISK that determine your effectiveness, but the ability to use your brain. Those who like the easy way, who only grind and want to stay on top by grinding will always whine, when people can achieve something without x time or y ISK spent in game. Conclusions follow. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.29 13:56:00 -
[826] . - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
 csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.29 13:56:00 -
[827] Edited by: csebal on 29/08/2005 14:18:08 Oh my.. is this thread still going on? Well then, as one of the rax users, here is how i see the problem: 1) The power of the 'rax (or any other drone using ship for that matter) is that people do not fit against drones. Why would they? Big ships ruled the sky for so long, noone thought that a cruiser sized ship can hold out long enough for its drones ot have an effect. Now that there are ways to prolong the life of even tech one cruisers, people realize the pain drones can mean. IMO: This is how it should have been for a long time (ship structure / shield / armor x 10 anyone? - while keeping the current damage leveles) 2) 1600mm plates. I guess these were never meant to be used on cruisers. Ironically, for some cruisers these plates meant resurrection in the world of HACs, AFs and BSes. For me, BIGGER != better and BIGGER should NEVER automatically win against smaller ones. So, a cruiser can fit an 1600 plate? What then? It sacrifices 90% of its powergrid to do so. Does it mean that Battleships are obsolete now? That they are suddenly outtanked by cruisers? No way. A BS can fit multiple armor plates, and still have a tremendous firepower. HACs can fit them as well and because of their resistances the effects of an armor plate are a lot bigger. Sure, only drone carriers can use plates from cruisers, as they rely on drones for the firepower, but those drone carriers HAVE to use plates, otherwise they wouldnt live long enough for their drones to have an effect. I see more and more frigs and cruiser fitting these plates of various sizes, and i think it is a good thing. It adds an element of uncertainity to the fight, that was missing until now, while still keeping the balance between ship classes. I wonder when i'll see the first battleships to really make use of these modules. 3) The combination of the two: A ship that has one of its big advantages in drones fitted with 1600mm plate. If you go unprepared, it can kill you. The truth however is, that it is painfully easy to counter it. It is a suprisingly effective combination, because people do not have/USE defenses against drones, other than the -kill the drone carrier fast-, which in this case just isnt going to work. There was a time, when drones were neglected, because ships that relied on drones to deal damage died too fast. Those times are over. There will be a time, when people learn to defend against drones / or CCP comes to nerf them. A period of death will follow, when thorax pilots realize that their tactic has been countered. Then a new 'I win' strategy will come up in someone's brain, people will mirror it, and this discussion will start again, as the pattern is - since the start of eve - "OMG, <Insert ship name here> with <Insert Weapons / mods here> are way too powerful. Nerf them". Just to name a few RECENT ones.. there were more, but i'm not a two legged history book myself, and back then i wasnt exactly fond of PvP: - Kestrels + Cruise Launchers - Ravens + Torpedoes - Thorax + Plates + Drones Variety is what makes EVE the great game it is. That it is not skills or ISK that determine your effectiveness, but the ability to use your brain. Those who like the easy way, who only grind and want to stay on top by grinding will always whine, when people can achieve something without x time or y ISK spent in game. They do not find ways to counter a strategy, because thy can do nothing better than to grind their way through to the biggest available ship, with the biggest available guns, and expect to win just because they have the big gunz. EVE is not like this, and for its future i hope it will never become like this. Conclusions follow. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.29 13:56:00 -
[828] Edited by: csebal on 29/08/2005 14:05:08 I think that the usage of 1600mm plates on cruisers and their effect shows something important. That battles are too fast, and that ships definitely need a HP boost to be more effective. Now i do not know how battles would turn out, if all ship HPs would be increased equally, for HACs every small boost is magnified by their resistances. For battleships, making raising HP 10 times would lead to some extreme numbers. The whole 'oversized' module idea is wrong imo. Every module should be made available to all ships, given the ship can meet the fitting requirements of the module. What about cruiser fitted with a single tachyon beam laser? They could surely fire a few shots before draining their cap, and they wouldnt be able to fit more than one anyway, so why not? Cruiser launchers on frigates, siege launchers on cruisers? I do not see a reason why. Just make fitting reqs high enough, so people have to sacrifice something to get there. Thats the key. You shouldnt be able to have ultimate fittings, but you should be able to have extreme, unexpected, weird fittings, to suprise your opponents with. I would love to have 425mm spinal mounted railgun fitted on my merlin for example ;) where the gun can fire only in an arc 5 degrees in front of the ship, and takes all high slots, but at least you can have some kinds of flying guns. Only worth something in big packs, but then they are deadly. These are the things i'm looking for in EVE. That makes me love EVE. People yelling: 'Its bigger, it costs 80 millions, it should easily kill that thorax' are just trying to kill my love. It is the ideology that can ruin the main foundation of EVE's greatness. That you always have to expect the unexpected. I don't want another WoW in space. nuff said. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
Turin |
Posted - 2005.08.29 17:47:00 -
[829] Edited by: Turin on 29/08/2005 17:50:03 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:44 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:02
I see. So. If we dont agree with you, then were a retard who doesnt know anythign about the game? How Arrogent is that? Sheesh! BTW. I dont agree with you, But since I have only been playing since the game was released, I must know nothing. I have one word for you regarding the Thorax. SMARTBOMB. If you dont have one, and get caught. shame on you. You desereve to die. And I hope you didnt have insureance either. |
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.29 17:47:00 -
[830] Edited by: Turin on 29/08/2005 17:50:03 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:44 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 24/08/2005 09:09:02
I see. So. If we dont agree with you, then were a retard who doesnt know anythign about the game? How Arrogent is that? Sheesh! BTW. I dont agree with you, But since I have only been playing since the game was released, I must know nothing. I have one word for you regarding the Thorax. SMARTBOMB. If you dont have one, and get caught. shame on you. You desereve to die. And I hope you didnt have insureance either. ________________________________________________________ |
Voltron |
Posted - 2005.08.29 17:52:00 -
[831]
Ive got the skills to fly one................perfect skills in fact, all at lvl 5, and this cruiser as it stands is overpowered........even without perfect skills its overpowered. Volt |
Voltron Caldari Black Lance Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2005.08.29 17:52:00 -
[832]
Ive got the skills to fly one................perfect skills in fact, all at lvl 5, and this cruiser as it stands is overpowered........even without perfect skills its overpowered. Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it? |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:13:00 -
[833] "I have one word for you regarding the Thorax. SMARTBOMB." Did you actually test your advice? I did. A medium smartbomb takes ~45-60 seconds to deal enough damage to kill drones, and uses ~500 cap for it. If the Thorax is killing you with both drones and guns, you don't have 60 seconds to live even with the plate. If he's killing you with drones and draining with nos, you don't have enough cap to keep the bomb running long enough to kill them drones. Please, mount a smartbomb on a cruiser that's non-Thorax, then go out and kill say, 10 decent Thorax pilots to prove me wrong. If it's as easy as you make it to be, it shouldn't take you much time.... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:13:00 -
[834] "I have one word for you regarding the Thorax. SMARTBOMB." Did you actually test your advice? I did. A medium smartbomb takes ~45-60 seconds to deal enough damage to kill drones, and uses ~500 cap for it. If the Thorax is killing you with both drones and guns, you don't have 60 seconds to live even with the plate. If he's killing you with drones and draining with nos, you don't have enough cap to keep the bomb running long enough to kill them drones. Please, mount a smartbomb on a cruiser that's non-Thorax, then go out and kill say, 10 decent Thorax pilots to prove me wrong. If it's as easy as you make it to be, it shouldn't take you much time.... |
Illana Ellest |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:14:00 -
[835] I say leave CCP to decide what is unbalanced and what is not, after all it is there job. Thorax is a great cruiser, its has its strenghths but also has its weakneses too. IMO any cruiser can be made to perform well with a bit of thought. Just my thoughts, so debate away guys. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:14:00 -
[836] Just for the record. You can't setup a cruser against heavy drones, mmmkey? Medium smartbomb takes forever to kill them. ECM burst is now not an option. And shooting 8 heavy drones with guns is a waste of damage because they have total HP like a thorax itself. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:14:00 -
[837] Just for the record. You can't setup a cruser against heavy drones, mmmkey? Medium smartbomb takes forever to kill them. ECM burst is now not an option. And shooting 8 heavy drones with guns is a waste of damage because they have total HP like a thorax itself. |
 Illana Ellest Caldari |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:14:00 -
[838] I say leave CCP to decide what is unbalanced and what is not, after all it is there job. Thorax is a great cruiser, its has its strenghths but also has its weakneses too. IMO any cruiser can be made to perform well with a bit of thought. Just my thoughts, so debate away guys. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:36:00 -
[839] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 29/08/2005 18:37:28 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 29/08/2005 18:36:32
I though that i was done with the topic, I guess not. I can adapt and have never really called for a nerf before. I think that plates are fine as they make tanking an option and make fight last longer. I would have no problem to adapt to a harsher penalty to fit oversized plates as about all my setup would trade an oversized plate + power mod for two smaller plates, so anything changed there would not really affect me. I have no problem with the thorax being an awesome cruiser, because i fly it, i enjoy it and would hate to see it nerfed to a point where i wouldn't have a reason to fly it. That being said, for all the reasons i mentioned, the drone bay of the thorax is something that doesn't fit in the game and should be balanced. I know that many people didn't like my positions, and the way i defended them. I am fine with that. Thanks j0sephine for proving what was not realistic in your point, and overall to all people who can defend a position for the game and not for their own advantage, whatever were their opinions in this thread. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:36:00 -
[840] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 29/08/2005 18:37:28 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 29/08/2005 18:36:32
I though that i was done with the topic, I guess not. I can adapt and have never really called for a nerf before. I think that plates are fine as they make tanking an option and make fight last longer. I would have no problem to adapt to a harsher penalty to fit oversized plates as about all my setup would trade an oversized plate + power mod for two smaller plates, so anything changed there would not really affect me. I have no problem with the thorax being an awesome cruiser, because i fly it, i enjoy it and would hate to see it nerfed to a point where i wouldn't have a reason to fly it. That being said, for all the reasons i mentioned, the drone bay of the thorax is something that doesn't fit in the game and should be balanced. I know that many people didn't like my positions, and the way i defended them. I am fine with that. Thanks j0sephine for proving what was not realistic in your point, and overall to all people who can defend a position for the game and not for their own advantage, whatever were their opinions in this thread. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Toshiro Khan |
Posted - 2005.08.29 19:04:00 -
[841]
yes you can... both the ashimmu and the maller can be set up to kill off plated rax's. what you seem to forget, is for every drone you kill the less damage the rax does, but hey i'm sticking to my last post that both the rax and plates will get nerfed.. and after we lose an effective ship you lot will start on something else to moan about. |
Toshiro Khan Gallente |
Posted - 2005.08.29 19:04:00 -
[842]
yes you can... both the ashimmu and the maller can be set up to kill off plated rax's. what you seem to forget, is for every drone you kill the less damage the rax does, but hey i'm sticking to my last post that both the rax and plates will get nerfed.. and after we lose an effective ship you lot will start on something else to moan about. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.29 20:14:00 -
[843] And you dont forget that maller guns is practicaly = his guns. Maller 1600 plate is = his plate. But not only his drones do double damage, but also you suggest me to fire on the drones, which are in fact ~3.5k HP plus, so I fight rax + 1600 plate + another 1600 plate which orbits and shoots at me and rax pilot has double damage untill I shot down that extra 1600 plate flying around. Talking about balance yeh? PS A ceptor can kill a bs if both fitted in some specific way and situation is in favour of the ceptor. But its not the ground to say that bs = single ceptor. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.29 20:14:00 -
[844] And you dont forget that maller guns is practicaly = his guns. Maller 1600 plate is = his plate. But not only his drones do double damage, but also you suggest me to fire on the drones, which are in fact ~3.5k HP plus, so I fight rax + 1600 plate + another 1600 plate which orbits and shoots at me and rax pilot has double damage untill I shot down that extra 1600 plate flying around. Talking about balance yeh? PS A ceptor can kill a bs if both fitted in some specific way and situation is in favour of the ceptor. But its not the ground to say that bs = single ceptor. |
Zaldiri |
Posted - 2005.08.29 20:40:00 -
[845] 100m3 is a little to much. Maybe reducing it by 50m3 would be a nice comperamize. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet. |
 Zaldiri Caldari Automated Industries |
Posted - 2005.08.29 20:40:00 -
[846] 100m3 is a little to much. Maybe reducing it by 50m3 would be a nice comperamize. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet. |
HippoKing |
Posted - 2005.08.29 21:03:00 -
[847] can we go through a thread about the dronebay without mentioning plates please ok, the thorax is the only one thats main firepower is unaffected by plates, but that is as far as plates really come into this even without plates taken into account, the thorax firepower still slaughters and t1 crusier out there it has a bigger drone bay than the battlecruiser, the dedicated drone carrier and every other race's battleships (same as geddon) go figure |
HippoKing Caldari The I-Win Button |
Posted - 2005.08.29 21:03:00 -
[848] can we go through a thread about the dronebay without mentioning plates please ok, the thorax is the only one thats main firepower is unaffected by plates, but that is as far as plates really come into this even without plates taken into account, the thorax firepower still slaughters and t1 crusier out there it has a bigger drone bay than the battlecruiser, the dedicated drone carrier and every other race's battleships (same as geddon) go figure |
Orvy |
Posted - 2005.08.29 22:16:00 -
[849] I'm not a thorax user first of all. But each time I fly by in my tempest and see a comparatively small thorax with a huge drone bay i can't help thinking: How the hell did these drones fit in this ship? ______________________________________________ Fighting for perfection of sweets recepies |
 Orvy Minmatar |
Posted - 2005.08.29 22:16:00 -
[850] I'm not a thorax user first of all. But each time I fly by in my tempest and see a comparatively small thorax with a huge drone bay i can't help thinking: How the hell did these drones fit in this ship? ______________________________________________ Fighting for perfection of sweets recepies |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.29 22:34:00 -
[851]
Em, no... the plates are the problem. why? because with out the plate a rax isn't as strong as you all seem to think your so fixated on the drone bay to realise that an unplated rax is like tissue. Whats next... the nerfing of the ishtar? because you can use 15 T2 heavy drones.. that puts that also into major battleship firepower? Well we already have people calling out for the nerfing of the zealot. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.29 22:34:00 -
[852]
Em, no... the plates are the problem. why? because with out the plate a rax isn't as strong as you all seem to think your so fixated on the drone bay to realise that an unplated rax is like tissue. Whats next... the nerfing of the ishtar? because you can use 15 T2 heavy drones.. that puts that also into major battleship firepower? Well we already have people calling out for the nerfing of the zealot. |
Meridius |
Posted - 2005.08.29 22:54:00 -
[853] The Thorax was overpowered before plates got boosted, it was the top cruiser before and it still is. ________________________________________________________ |
Meridius Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2005.08.29 22:54:00 -
[854] The Thorax was overpowered before plates got boosted, it was the top cruiser before and it still is. - _____ |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.29 23:04:00 -
[855]
Strange that... being as before the exo patch.. when someone would ask for a set up for the rax, the most common answer was.. "fit 2 x miner 2's as thats all its good for." or can i do lvl 3 missions in a rax. you would get the answer "No... get a caracal or fly a dura-maller.. as a rax sucks at anything other then mining." But since some bright spark started fitting oversized plates to it, it started to become very effective in pvp, you would get a few complaints from new players that they got killed by rax.. but since the missle update, the people feel the need to kill off one of the better cruisers. But when its all said and done, the oversized plate problem will remain and people will remain blinkered to the problem of the plates. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.29 23:04:00 -
[856] Edited by: Ravenge on 30/08/2005 00:00:42
Strange that... being as before the exo patch.. when someone would ask for a set up for the rax, the most common answer was.. "fit 5 x miner 2's as thats all its good for." or can i do lvl 3 missions in a rax. you would get the answer "No... get a caracal or fly a dura-maller.. as a rax sucks at anything other then mining." But since some bright spark started fitting oversized plates to it, it started to become very effective in pvp, you would get a few complaints from new players that they got killed by rax.. but since the missle update, the people feel the need to kill off one of the better cruisers. But when its all said and done, the oversized plate problem will remain and people will remain blinkered to the problem of the plates. Edit: 5 x miner 2's not 2 x miner 5's ...lol |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.29 23:41:00 -
[857] Once the thoraxes drone bay is nerfed, I predict a NERF TEHHH MALLLERR thread, after the Maller has been nerfed, a NERF TEEHHH STABBERRRR...... |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.29 23:41:00 -
[858] Once the thoraxes drone bay is nerfed, I predict a NERF TEHHH MALLLERR thread, after the Maller has been nerfed, a NERF TEEHHH STABBERRRR...... |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.29 23:41:00 -
[859] Once the thoraxes drone bay is nerfed, I predict a NERF TEHHH MALLLERR thread, after the Maller has been nerfed, a NERF TEEHHH STABBERRRR...... |
Bottled Brain |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:11:00 -
[860]
The platerax is old and only got boosted by the plate changes. Here is an old Thorax thread: Balthial's Blasterax Testing Results Part I The Thorax is one of the few cruiser that was always used in pvp because of her dronebay. The existance of the platerax has nothing to do with the recent changes. |
Bottled Brain |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:11:00 -
[861]
The platerax is old and only got boosted by the plate changes. Here is an old Thorax thread: Balthial's Blasterax Testing Results Part I The Thorax is one of the few cruiser that was always used in pvp because of her dronebay. The existance of the platerax has nothing to do with the recent changes. |
Bottled Brain |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:11:00 -
[862]
The platerax is old and only got boosted by the plate changes. Here is an old Thorax thread: Balthial's Blasterax Testing Results Part I The Thorax is one of the few cruiser that was always used in pvp because of her dronebay. The existance of the platerax has nothing to do with the recent changes. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:18:00 -
[863]
Yep, thats about the time people started to realise more could be done with the rax, then fitting miner 2's ... pretty much in the same way, that the brutix has gone from being called the worst BC in the game, to something worth getting. But if the trend on the nerf this ship coz its too uber trend continues.. we might be in this same situation defending it from people who want to nerf it. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:18:00 -
[864]
Yep, thats about the time people started to realise more could be done with the rax, then fitting miner 2's ... pretty much in the same way, that the brutix has gone from being called the worst BC in the game, to something worth getting. But if the trend on the nerf this ship coz its too uber trend continues.. we might be in this same situation defending it from people who want to nerf it. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:18:00 -
[865]
Yep, thats about the time people started to realise more could be done with the rax, then fitting miner 2's ... pretty much in the same way, that the brutix has gone from being called the worst BC in the game, to something worth getting. But if the trend on the nerf this ship coz its too uber trend continues.. we might be in this same situation defending it from people who want to nerf it. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:43:00 -
[866] In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:43:00 -
[867] In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.30 01:43:00 -
[868] In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 02:10:00 -
[869]
First of all take the plate out of the equation.. I know you seem to ignore the posts from people who fly plated raxs who state its the plate that overpowers it. Also define any range.. as no matter how hard i try.. i can't quite get my rax to do 250 dps at 100km, maybe i'm missing something.. at the most a rax is effective up to 20km (unless your running an officer warp scrambler) It would be interesting to see how the 200dps ruppy handles a non plated rax... at lets say since its at ANY range.. starting 30km apart.. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 02:10:00 -
[870]
First of all take the plate out of the equation.. I know you seem to ignore the posts from people who fly plated raxs who state its the plate that overpowers it. Also define any range.. as no matter how hard i try.. i can't quite get my rax to do 250 dps at 100km, maybe i'm missing something.. at the most a rax is effective up to 20km (unless your running an officer warp scrambler) It would be interesting to see how the 200dps ruppy handles a non plated rax... at lets say since its at ANY range.. starting 30km apart.. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 02:10:00 -
[871]
First of all take the plate out of the equation.. I know you seem to ignore the posts from people who fly plated raxs who state its the plate that overpowers it. Also define any range.. as no matter how hard i try.. i can't quite get my rax to do 250 dps at 100km, maybe i'm missing something.. at the most a rax is effective up to 20km (unless your running an officer warp scrambler) It would be interesting to see how the 200dps ruppy handles a non plated rax... at lets say since its at ANY range.. starting 30km apart.. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.30 04:59:00 -
[872]
Don't talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I flew a plated Rax into PVP last week, engaged a fleet of 28 IRON warships (with 6 friendlies), a dozen of which were firing on me, and still almost managed to bag a Crow (Hi Sorja ... I swear, 2 more seconds...)4 heavy drones reduces a Thorax's DPS from 260 with a plate and light neuts (only 90 of that DPS is from the neuts, the other 170 is the drones) to a more reasonable 175. Add in the fact that the 85 from the drones is VERY flexible firepower, and the fact that Blasters ALREADY do high DPS because of their short range, and you really have no excuse to complain. Nowhere did I say the Rax could do 250 DPS at 100km. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, and it's a sad attempt. A Ruppie can't do 200 DPS with over 5k HP. And you know what, it SHOULD beat the Rax at longer ranges. ITS A LONG RANGE SHIP. The Rax SHOULD win at close range engagements. ITS A SHORT RANGE SHIP. Don't cry to me that its not overpowered because it can't beat a MWD-fitted long range ship when the fight starts at long range. Thats a specific scenario, and even then the Rax has the ability to warp off if its being out ranged (that's the downside to having a ship with range) and then return back on a playing field of it's choice. The issue is at hand that the Thorax is supposed to be the king of short-range, but its high DPS (at no fitting cost), easy plateability, ability to manipulate the battle well with its speed, and the fact that it's way too good at too many things means that it's overpowered. Saying that a Rax will lose to a MWDing Ruppie with Howies and damage mods when the fight takes place past 30km, and then trying to use that to support your claim that the Rax isn't overpowered is ridiculous. I might as well claim that the Cerberus MUST be better than any other HAC simply because it has the ability to use FoF missiles versus ECM jamming. Its a ridiculous blanket statement because the Cerberus is obviously an inferor HAC except in VERY specific situations. Just because a Cerb could fire back at a Scorpion and a Zealot can't doesn't mean it will win. Exactly the same as the fact that just because a Ruppie can fire on a Thorax while it can't fire back doesn't mean it will win. If its within range of a 20km scrambler, the T-Rax's drones will allow it to deal back equal damage if not more. Otherwise, the Rax can leave the engagement and return at a closer combat range. Citing a specific circumstance is not an adequate reason for claiming that the Thorax is balanced. It can be used in an attempt to support an arguement but makes for a very weak foundation to your cause. Debating 101 folks. The issue here is, the Thorax is way too versatile and powerful for its own good. It has way too many pluses and too few minuses. It's been proven time and time again, but those peope with 400k skillpoints in Drones, no cruiser and gunnery skills, but still manage to easily outdamage AND outank those much more skilled players in other ships is a definate indicator of a problem. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.30 04:59:00 -
[873]
Don't talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I flew a plated Rax into PVP last week, engaged a fleet of 28 IRON warships (with 6 friendlies), a dozen of which were firing on me, and still almost managed to bag a Crow (Hi Sorja ... I swear, 2 more seconds...)4 heavy drones reduces a Thorax's DPS from 260 with a plate and light neuts (only 90 of that DPS is from the neuts, the other 170 is the drones) to a more reasonable 175. Add in the fact that the 85 from the drones is VERY flexible firepower, and the fact that Blasters ALREADY do high DPS because of their short range, and you really have no excuse to complain. Nowhere did I say the Rax could do 250 DPS at 100km. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, and it's a sad attempt. A Ruppie can't do 200 DPS with over 5k HP. And you know what, it SHOULD beat the Rax at longer ranges. ITS A LONG RANGE SHIP. The Rax SHOULD win at close range engagements. ITS A SHORT RANGE SHIP. Don't cry to me that its not overpowered because it can't beat a MWD-fitted long range ship when the fight starts at long range. Thats a specific scenario, and even then the Rax has the ability to warp off if its being out ranged (that's the downside to having a ship with range) and then return back on a playing field of it's choice. The issue is at hand that the Thorax is supposed to be the king of short-range, but its high DPS (at no fitting cost), easy plateability, ability to manipulate the battle well with its speed, and the fact that it's way too good at too many things means that it's overpowered. Saying that a Rax will lose to a MWDing Ruppie with Howies and damage mods when the fight takes place past 30km, and then trying to use that to support your claim that the Rax isn't overpowered is ridiculous. I might as well claim that the Cerberus MUST be better than any other HAC simply because it has the ability to use FoF missiles versus ECM jamming. Its a ridiculous blanket statement because the Cerberus is obviously an inferor HAC except in VERY specific situations. Just because a Cerb could fire back at a Scorpion and a Zealot can't doesn't mean it will win. Exactly the same as the fact that just because a Ruppie can fire on a Thorax while it can't fire back doesn't mean it will win. If its within range of a 20km scrambler, the T-Rax's drones will allow it to deal back equal damage if not more. Otherwise, the Rax can leave the engagement and return at a closer combat range. Citing a specific circumstance is not an adequate reason for claiming that the Thorax is balanced. It can be used in an attempt to support an arguement but makes for a very weak foundation to your cause. Debating 101 folks. The issue here is, the Thorax is way too versatile and powerful for its own good. It has way too many pluses and too few minuses. It's been proven time and time again, but those peope with 400k skillpoints in Drones, no cruiser and gunnery skills, but still manage to easily outdamage AND outank those much more skilled players in other ships is a definate indicator of a problem. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.30 04:59:00 -
[874]
Don't talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I flew a plated Rax into PVP last week, engaged a fleet of 28 IRON warships (with 6 friendlies), a dozen of which were firing on me, and still almost managed to bag a Crow (Hi Sorja ... I swear, 2 more seconds...)4 heavy drones reduces a Thorax's DPS from 260 with a plate and light neuts (only 90 of that DPS is from the neuts, the other 170 is the drones) to a more reasonable 175. Add in the fact that the 85 from the drones is VERY flexible firepower, and the fact that Blasters ALREADY do high DPS because of their short range, and you really have no excuse to complain. Nowhere did I say the Rax could do 250 DPS at 100km. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, and it's a sad attempt. A Ruppie can't do 200 DPS with over 5k HP. And you know what, it SHOULD beat the Rax at longer ranges. ITS A LONG RANGE SHIP. The Rax SHOULD win at close range engagements. ITS A SHORT RANGE SHIP. Don't cry to me that its not overpowered because it can't beat a MWD-fitted long range ship when the fight starts at long range. Thats a specific scenario, and even then the Rax has the ability to warp off if its being out ranged (that's the downside to having a ship with range) and then return back on a playing field of it's choice. The issue is at hand that the Thorax is supposed to be the king of short-range, but its high DPS (at no fitting cost), easy plateability, ability to manipulate the battle well with its speed, and the fact that it's way too good at too many things means that it's overpowered. Saying that a Rax will lose to a MWDing Ruppie with Howies and damage mods when the fight takes place past 30km, and then trying to use that to support your claim that the Rax isn't overpowered is ridiculous. I might as well claim that the Cerberus MUST be better than any other HAC simply because it has the ability to use FoF missiles versus ECM jamming. Its a ridiculous blanket statement because the Cerberus is obviously an inferor HAC except in VERY specific situations. Just because a Cerb could fire back at a Scorpion and a Zealot can't doesn't mean it will win. Exactly the same as the fact that just because a Ruppie can fire on a Thorax while it can't fire back doesn't mean it will win. If its within range of a 20km scrambler, the T-Rax's drones will allow it to deal back equal damage if not more. Otherwise, the Rax can leave the engagement and return at a closer combat range. Citing a specific circumstance is not an adequate reason for claiming that the Thorax is balanced. It can be used in an attempt to support an arguement but makes for a very weak foundation to your cause. Debating 101 folks. The issue here is, the Thorax is way too versatile and powerful for its own good. It has way too many pluses and too few minuses. It's been proven time and time again, but those peope with 400k skillpoints in Drones, no cruiser and gunnery skills, but still manage to easily outdamage AND outank those much more skilled players in other ships is a definate indicator of a problem. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.30 09:40:00 -
[875] Edited by: csebal on 30/08/2005 09:47:05 OMG. Stop mentioning blasters on raxes in terms of DPS. No rax has the speed to keep the enemy inside blaster range, unless that enemy is a complete noob, or is AFK. So you can take your precious blaster DPS, ans shove it up your rear, as it isnt going to do you any good. If you fit MWDs to the rax, you may keep up in speed, but the long range gunships will tear you apart before you say: Oh f**k. People talk about 'rax being overpowered, like if it would be the second best thing next to dreads. Well, let me enlighten you. Close range, (that means below 15km) thoraxes deal out decent damage. They are prone to snipers, skilled frigate pilots, HACs, basically anything that is either fast, far away, or is tanked properly. So what? Thoraxes manage to kill battleships when they jump through gates? Kill them when they sit at a sniper spot for half an hour waiting for the covert ops to make a jump point on them? Kill frigates and cruisers that instead of fleeing with MWD on decide to orbit a rax at 5km? Manage to kill HACs in groups? I see nothing overpowered there. It is how the game should work. Problem is, that no other cruiser can do that. My question is: do you see people flying those other cruiser? Did you see those cruisers before the patch that made plates on cruisers viable? No. Why? Because they are cr*p. They are worth nothing, but to be base components for HAC construction. So all in one, i do agree that thoraxes WITH plates USING heavy drones are out of balance ATM. Not compared to other ship classes, but compared to other cruisers. I could rather say, that most cruisers have no role / place in PvP atm. The only cruisers i really think of being useful atm are: Thorax - as a short range damage dealer / close escort Blackbird - EV Maller - Flying armor (aka distraction, aka tank, aka bait) There are some more, that are marginally useful, but they are easily taken apart by just a single AF, unless they fit plates, in which case they lose a big deal of their firepower. Personally i do not like the way HACs or AFs are done. They are like mini battleships and cruisers, with all the advantages of their respective ship class. Sig radius, sig resolution, speed, agility, etc. AFs make cruisers look like cheap -noob man's toy-, while HACs make battleships obsolete. (The close / med range ones for sure) TL1 ships need some love, and TL2 ships need a specialized role. I like interceptors, because they are fast, but reasonably weak. I like covert ops, because they have a definite role. Love support ships, as they also have a special role. AFs and HACs are just the 'more guns, better guns' kind of ugly beasts, CCP has come up with the please the grinding crowd. I wonder when the Assault Battleship will come, that will make dreadnoughts look like some child's toy. So why whine for nerfing the few TL1 ships that are worth anything. Instead of it, whine for boosting all the other TL1 ships, so that once again people will start using them for things other than lvl2 agent running. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 09:40:00 -
[876] Edited by: csebal on 30/08/2005 09:47:05 OMG. Stop mentioning blasters on raxes in terms of DPS. No rax has the speed to keep the enemy inside blaster range, unless that enemy is a complete noob, or is AFK. So you can take your precious blaster DPS, ans shove it up your rear, as it isnt going to do you any good. If you fit MWDs to the rax, you may keep up in speed, but the long range gunships will tear you apart before you say: Oh f**k. People talk about 'rax being overpowered, like if it would be the second best thing next to dreads. Well, let me enlighten you. Close range, (that means below 15km) thoraxes deal out decent damage. They are prone to snipers, skilled frigate pilots, HACs, basically anything that is either fast, far away, or is tanked properly. So what? Thoraxes manage to kill battleships when they jump through gates? Kill them when they sit at a sniper spot for half an hour waiting for the covert ops to make a jump point on them? Kill frigates and cruisers that instead of fleeing with MWD on decide to orbit a rax at 5km? Manage to kill HACs in groups? I see nothing overpowered there. It is how the game should work. Problem is, that no other cruiser can do that. My question is: do you see people flying those other cruiser? Did you see those cruisers before the patch that made plates on cruisers viable? No. Why? Because they are cr*p. They are worth nothing, but to be base components for HAC construction. So all in one, i do agree that thoraxes WITH plates USING heavy drones are out of balance ATM. Not compared to other ship classes, but compared to other cruisers. I could rather say, that most cruisers have no role / place in PvP atm. The only cruisers i really think of being useful atm are: Thorax - as a short range damage dealer / close escort Blackbird - EV Maller - Flying armor (aka distraction, aka tank, aka bait) There are some more, that are marginally useful, but they are easily taken apart by just a single AF, unless they fit plates, in which case they lose a big deal of their firepower. Personally i do not like the way HACs or AFs are done. They are like mini battleships and cruisers, with all the advantages of their respective ship class. Sig radius, sig resolution, speed, agility, etc. AFs make cruisers look like cheap -noob man's toy-, while HACs make battleships obsolete. (The close / med range ones for sure) TL1 ships need some love, and TL2 ships need a specialized role. I like interceptors, because they are fast, but reasonably weak. I like covert ops, because they have a definite role. Love support ships, as they also have a special role. AFs and HACs are just the 'more guns, better guns' kind of ugly beasts, CCP has come up with the please the grinding crowd. I wonder when the Assault Battleship will come, that will make dreadnoughts look like some child's toy. So why whine for nerfing the few TL1 ships that are worth anything. Instead of it, whine for boosting all the other TL1 ships, so that once again people will start using them for things other than lvl2 agent running. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 09:40:00 -
[877] Edited by: csebal on 30/08/2005 09:47:05 OMG. Stop mentioning blasters on raxes in terms of DPS. No rax has the speed to keep the enemy inside blaster range, unless that enemy is a complete noob, or is AFK. So you can take your precious blaster DPS, ans shove it up your rear, as it isnt going to do you any good. If you fit MWDs to the rax, you may keep up in speed, but the long range gunships will tear you apart before you say: Oh f**k. People talk about 'rax being overpowered, like if it would be the second best thing next to dreads. Well, let me enlighten you. Close range, (that means below 15km) thoraxes deal out decent damage. They are prone to snipers, skilled frigate pilots, HACs, basically anything that is either fast, far away, or is tanked properly. So what? Thoraxes manage to kill battleships when they jump through gates? Kill them when they sit at a sniper spot for half an hour waiting for the covert ops to make a jump point on them? Kill frigates and cruisers that instead of fleeing with MWD on decide to orbit a rax at 5km? Manage to kill HACs in groups? I see nothing overpowered there. It is how the game should work. Problem is, that no other cruiser can do that. My question is: do you see people flying those other cruiser? Did you see those cruisers before the patch that made plates on cruisers viable? No. Why? Because they are cr*p. They are worth nothing, but to be base components for HAC construction. So all in one, i do agree that thoraxes WITH plates USING heavy drones are out of balance ATM. Not compared to other ship classes, but compared to other cruisers. I could rather say, that most cruisers have no role / place in PvP atm. The only cruisers i really think of being useful atm are: Thorax - as a short range damage dealer / close escort Blackbird - EV Maller - Flying armor (aka distraction, aka tank, aka bait) There are some more, that are marginally useful, but they are easily taken apart by just a single AF, unless they fit plates, in which case they lose a big deal of their firepower. Personally i do not like the way HACs or AFs are done. They are like mini battleships and cruisers, with all the advantages of their respective ship class. Sig radius, sig resolution, speed, agility, etc. AFs make cruisers look like cheap -noob man's toy-, while HACs make battleships obsolete. (The close / med range ones for sure) TL1 ships need some love, and TL2 ships need a specialized role. I like interceptors, because they are fast, but reasonably weak. I like covert ops, because they have a definite role. Love support ships, as they also have a special role. AFs and HACs are just the 'more guns, better guns' kind of ugly beasts, CCP has come up with the please the grinding crowd. I wonder when the Assault Battleship will come, that will make dreadnoughts look like some child's toy. So why whine for nerfing the few TL1 ships that are worth anything. Instead of it, whine for boosting all the other TL1 ships, so that once again people will start using them for things other than lvl2 agent running. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
Khristopher |
Posted - 2005.08.30 10:08:00 -
[878] Ugh I wish people would stop screaming nerf the rax and start screaming boost the other cruisers! Don't get me wrong the thorax is a great ship but IMO its not overpowered. Its the other cruisers that are underpowered. |
 Khristopher Legio I Mordu Cohort I |
Posted - 2005.08.30 10:08:00 -
[879] Ugh I wish people would stop screaming nerf the rax and start screaming boost the other cruisers! Don't get me wrong the thorax is a great ship but IMO its not overpowered. Its the other cruisers that are underpowered. |
Khristopher Legio I Mordu Cohort I |
Posted - 2005.08.30 10:08:00 -
[880] Ugh I wish people would stop screaming nerf the rax and start screaming boost the other cruisers! Don't get me wrong the thorax is a great ship but IMO its not overpowered. Its the other cruisers that are underpowered. |
Vee Bot |
Posted - 2005.08.30 10:16:00 -
[881]
Well then how bout we add the equivilent of 150ish dps (from 8 heavy drones, average skills) in the form of turrets to the other teir III cruisers, say 2 hi slots 2 turrets and an extra missile + PG + CPU to the rupture. 2 hi slots 2 turrets +pg +cpu to the maller and last but not least 2 more hi slots to the moa, 2 turrets and a missile slot +cpu +pg. Yea, rax is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO not over powered..... ------------------ Remember that your Unique, like everyone else. |
Vee Bot |
Posted - 2005.08.30 10:16:00 -
[882]
Well then how bout we add the equivilent of 150ish dps (from 8 heavy drones, average skills) in the form of turrets to the other teir III cruisers, say 2 hi slots 2 turrets and an extra missile + PG + CPU to the rupture. 2 hi slots 2 turrets +pg +cpu to the maller and last but not least 2 more hi slots to the moa, 2 turrets and a missile slot +cpu +pg. Yea, rax is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO not over powered..... ------------------ Remember that your Unique, like everyone else. |
Vee Bot |
Posted - 2005.08.30 10:16:00 -
[883]
Well then how bout we add the equivilent of 150ish dps (from 8 heavy drones, average skills) in the form of turrets to the other teir III cruisers, say 2 hi slots 2 turrets and an extra missile + PG + CPU to the rupture. 2 hi slots 2 turrets +pg +cpu to the maller and last but not least 2 more hi slots to the moa, 2 turrets and a missile slot +cpu +pg. Yea, rax is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO not over powered..... ------------------ Remember that your Unique, like everyone else. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 11:56:00 -
[884]
You sir are an idiot, why? for starters you need more then 400k of sps to be able to control 8 drones alone (lvl 5 rank 1 - 256000 and lvl 3 rank 5 - 226275) then you need the rest of the relevent drone skills to get that uber dps from the drones.. then we have the support skills, (hull upgrade lvl 3 at the minimum ... if you want to use hardeners lvl 4) and lets not forget at even at lvl 3 gallente cruiser.. the mwd cap penalty still screws over the rax. If your going to witter on about debates, first of all use fact to back up your argument and not pull random rubbish out of the air and claim its correct. And a little reminder, you claimed the rax could do 250 dps at ANY range.. i pointed out you couldn't so thats another lesson on getting your facts correct before trying to make argument. And an unplated rax dies in less then 10 seconds at 30km from thats 200 dps ruppy.. wow.. the rax isn't as overpowered as you think it is.. like its been said before.. its the oversized plates. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 11:56:00 -
[885] Edited by: Ravenge on 30/08/2005 15:48:56
You sir are an idiot, why? for starters you need more then 400k of sps to be able to control 8 drones alone (lvl 5 rank 1 - 256000 and lvl 3 rank 5 - 226275) then you need the rest of the relevent drone skills to get that uber dps from the drones.. Plus having those skills, are irrelevent since you need the cruise skills to be able to field the 8 heavies you like to moan about. So on top of the drone skills you have to add the support skills, (hull upgrade lvl 3 at the minimum ... if you want to use hardeners lvl 4) and lets not forget at even at lvl 3 gallente cruiser.. the mwd cap penalty still screws over the rax. Slowly but surely you start to see the skill points needed rise.. I wouldn't be suprised if you needed more skill points to fly a plated rax, that fields 8 heavies and does 250 dps at close range.. then you needed to fly a pre-patch raven, but thats speculation.. also its worth taking into account the training time needed to get all those skills up.. It would be worth finding out how long it would take a new player to train up all the skills needed.. But remember that if your thing about using the learning skills and advanced learning skills to modify the training times to add them into the time frame.. So if your going to witter on about debates, first of all use fact to back up your argument and not pull random rubbish out of the air and claim its correct. And a little reminder, you claimed the rax could do 250 dps at ANY range.. i pointed out you couldn't so thats another lesson on getting your facts correct before trying to make argument. And an unplated rax dies in less then 10 seconds at 30km from thats 200 dps ruppy.. wow.. the rax isn't as overpowered as you think it is.. like its been said before.. its the oversized plates. Minor edit, to make it read a little better. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 11:56:00 -
[886] Edited by: Ravenge on 30/08/2005 15:48:56
You sir are an idiot, why? for starters you need more then 400k of sps to be able to control 8 drones alone (lvl 5 rank 1 - 256000 and lvl 3 rank 5 - 226275) then you need the rest of the relevent drone skills to get that uber dps from the drones.. Plus having those skills, are irrelevent since you need the cruise skills to be able to field the 8 heavies you like to moan about. So on top of the drone skills you have to add the support skills, (hull upgrade lvl 3 at the minimum ... if you want to use hardeners lvl 4) and lets not forget at even at lvl 3 gallente cruiser.. the mwd cap penalty still screws over the rax. Slowly but surely you start to see the skill points needed rise.. I wouldn't be suprised if you needed more skill points to fly a plated rax, that fields 8 heavies and does 250 dps at close range.. then you needed to fly a pre-patch raven, but thats speculation.. also its worth taking into account the training time needed to get all those skills up.. It would be worth finding out how long it would take a new player to train up all the skills needed.. But remember that if your thing about using the learning skills and advanced learning skills to modify the training times to add them into the time frame.. So if your going to witter on about debates, first of all use fact to back up your argument and not pull random rubbish out of the air and claim its correct. And a little reminder, you claimed the rax could do 250 dps at ANY range.. i pointed out you couldn't so thats another lesson on getting your facts correct before trying to make argument. And an unplated rax dies in less then 10 seconds at 30km from thats 200 dps ruppy.. wow.. the rax isn't as overpowered as you think it is.. like its been said before.. its the oversized plates. Minor edit, to make it read a little better. |
ArchenTheGreat |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:31:00 -
[887]
He never said that. He asked you to show another (any) cruiser which can do such a DPS at choosen by you (any) range. Where are you from? I am from Poland and not native English speaker but I managed to understand Elektr0freak. |
 ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate. |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:31:00 -
[888]
He never said that. He asked you to show another (any) cruiser which can do such a DPS at choosen by you (any) range. Where are you from? I am from Poland and not native English speaker but I managed to understand Elektr0freak. |
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate. |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:31:00 -
[889]
He never said that. He asked you to show another (any) cruiser which can do such a DPS at choosen by you (any) range. Where are you from? I am from Poland and not native English speaker but I managed to understand Elektr0freak. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:49:00 -
[890] Edited by: Nyxus on 30/08/2005 12:53:11
That's why I use medium beam II's on my plated rax with ogres. 24km range, best un-bonused small guns in the game. Cap is np with good skills. Alternatively you can use 150mm T2's. Both options give you 20km+ range with incredible tracking. Only nubs or those who KNOW they won't be engaging ceptors (aka pirates) put blasters on a Rax. I flew a plated Rax back in 03. The dronebay overpowered it then, the plate boost just exacerbated the problem. One final point to those who the the Rax is "just fine". If it is just fine, how bout giving the Omen 2 more turret slots and enough grid to fit them? Because that's how many more it would need to equalize the dps between the cruisers. Omen with 6 Heavy Beam II's =! balanced. Neither does a Rax with 5 guns and 8 wasps and a BS sized plate. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:49:00 -
[891] Edited by: Nyxus on 30/08/2005 12:53:11
That's why I use medium beam II's on my plated rax with ogres. 24km range, best un-bonused small guns in the game. Cap is np with good skills. Alternatively you can use 150mm T2's. Both options give you 20km+ range with incredible tracking. Only nubs or those who KNOW they won't be engaging ceptors (aka pirates) put blasters on a Rax. I flew a plated Rax back in 03. The dronebay overpowered it then, the plate boost just exacerbated the problem. One final point to those who the the Rax is "just fine". If it is just fine, how bout giving the Omen 2 more turret slots and enough grid to fit them? Because that's how many more it would need to equalize the dps between the cruisers. Omen with 6 Heavy Beam II's =! balanced. Neither does a Rax with 5 guns and 8 wasps and a BS sized plate. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:49:00 -
[892] Edited by: Nyxus on 30/08/2005 12:53:11
That's why I use medium beam II's on my plated rax with ogres. 24km range, best un-bonused small guns in the game. Cap is np with good skills. Alternatively you can use 150mm T2's. Both options give you 20km+ range with incredible tracking. Only nubs or those who KNOW they won't be engaging ceptors (aka pirates) put blasters on a Rax. I flew a plated Rax back in 03. The dronebay overpowered it then, the plate boost just exacerbated the problem. One final point to those who the the Rax is "just fine". If it is just fine, how bout giving the Omen 2 more turret slots and enough grid to fit them? Because that's how many more it would need to equalize the dps between the cruisers. Omen with 6 Heavy Beam II's =! balanced. Neither does a Rax with 5 guns and 8 wasps and a BS sized plate. Nyxus
|
Markie |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:53:00 -
[893] Remove all ammo and weapons from the game and give people stones and harch words to throw at each other! Who ever can spam fastest wins?!?! OMG, I h8 threads that say change this change that, get over it or get a better ship. |
 Markie 2 Days |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:53:00 -
[894] Remove all ammo and weapons from the game and give people stones and harch words to throw at each other! Who ever can spam fastest wins?!?! OMG, I h8 threads that say change this change that, get over it or get a better ship. |
Markie 2 Days |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:53:00 -
[895] Remove all ammo and weapons from the game and give people stones and harch words to throw at each other! Who ever can spam fastest wins?!?! OMG, I h8 threads that say change this change that, get over it or get a better ship. |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:57:00 -
[896]
That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well? Yeah, a revised slot / hardpoint layout would be a start. Then the armor / shield / structure HPs and resistances should come. It is always easier to nerf something, especially if it is where it should be. Problem is, that nerfing = destruction. By nerfing, you are reducing the game one step at a time. If you make a trend of it, you'll end up with one ship, one slot, one module, and one player to rule it all. So - as hard as it is - CCP should finally take the constructive way, and look at those damn cruisers again, overhaul them completely, and give them new life. Is this discussion really about the rax? Isn't this all about HAC / AF / BS pilots, who can not take the fact, that given proper skills and fitting, a group of TL1 cruisers (in some cases even a single one) can win against them? - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:57:00 -
[897]
That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well? Yeah, a revised slot / hardpoint layout would be a start. Then the armor / shield / structure HPs and resistances should come. It is always easier to nerf something, especially if it is where it should be. Problem is, that nerfing = destruction. By nerfing, you are reducing the game one step at a time. If you make a trend of it, you'll end up with one ship, one slot, one module, and one player to rule it all. So - as hard as it is - CCP should finally take the constructive way, and look at those damn cruisers again, overhaul them completely, and give them new life. Is this discussion really about the rax? Isn't this all about HAC / AF / BS pilots, who can not take the fact, that given proper skills and fitting, a group of TL1 cruisers (in some cases even a single one) can win against them? My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:57:00 -
[898]
That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well? Yeah, a revised slot / hardpoint layout would be a start. Then the armor / shield / structure HPs and resistances should come. It is always easier to nerf something, especially if it is where it should be. Problem is, that nerfing = destruction. By nerfing, you are reducing the game one step at a time. If you make a trend of it, you'll end up with one ship, one slot, one module, and one player to rule it all. So - as hard as it is - CCP should finally take the constructive way, and look at those damn cruisers again, overhaul them completely, and give them new life. Is this discussion really about the rax? Isn't this all about HAC / AF / BS pilots, who can not take the fact, that given proper skills and fitting, a group of TL1 cruisers (in some cases even a single one) can win against them? My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:16:00 -
[899]
You cannot expect the same DPS from different ships. Heavy Beam IIs are medium range, so their DPS output should obviously be lower than that of a thorax /w drones. So you SHOULD NOT - NEVER, NEVER EVER, NOPE - equalize the DPS of ships, but instead you have to look at their roles, and determine a DPS according to that. Meaning: Short range = high DPS Medium range = medium DPS Long range = low DPS why that? Because long range ships rely on their ability to get away before they get hurt, plus they have a damage advantage against short range ones, as the short range ships have to get close to them first. Short range on the other hand requires you to stand toe-to-toe with your opponent, meaning that unless you fit WCSs, it'll be a fight to the death. You rely on high damage to kill the opponent, and get out before you get killed by more enemies. I do not know how that is hard to understand. Just look at the different guns, and you'll see, that the shorter it's range is, the bigger the actual DPS gets. The ideal balance of course would be to have: frig sized ships, able to fit frig sized weapons / cruiser sized weapons, vulnerable to frig sized weapons, almost invulnerable to cruiser sized ones, basically invisible to BS and larger. cruiser sized ships, able to fit frig - to - BS sized weapons, vulnerable to cruiser sized weapons, base 75% resistance (over any armor res) against frig sized weapons, almost invulnerable to BS sized guns. battleship sized ships, able to fit frig - to - dread guns, vulnerable to BS weapons, invulnerable to frig sized ones, base 75% resistance (over any armor res) against cruiser weapons, almost invulnerable to dread guns. dreads, only prone to other dreads / pos defenses, able to fit anything, but only ships the same class the weapon fired is in. This way, people would be forced to have mixed fleets / mixed ship setups. Too bad that the majority of people only want to grind their way through the biggest gun, and they do not care about real balance or fleet composition. Thats why we have threads like this, because people are afraid to lose their 'i-win' HACs, and consider any ship being at least nearly useful against them to be a threat. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:16:00 -
[900]
You cannot expect the same DPS from different ships. Heavy Beam IIs are medium range, so their DPS output should obviously be lower than that of a thorax /w drones. So you SHOULD NOT - NEVER, NEVER EVER, NOPE - equalize the DPS of ships, but instead you have to look at their roles, and determine a DPS according to that. Meaning: Short range = high DPS Medium range = medium DPS Long range = low DPS why that? Because long range ships rely on their ability to get away before they get hurt, plus they have a damage advantage against short range ones, as the short range ships have to get close to them first. Short range on the other hand requires you to stand toe-to-toe with your opponent, meaning that unless you fit WCSs, it'll be a fight to the death. You rely on high damage to kill the opponent, and get out before you get killed by more enemies. I do not know how that is hard to understand. Just look at the different guns, and you'll see, that the shorter it's range is, the bigger the actual DPS gets. The ideal balance of course would be to have: frig sized ships, able to fit frig sized weapons / cruiser sized weapons, vulnerable to frig sized weapons, almost invulnerable to cruiser sized ones, basically invisible to BS and larger. cruiser sized ships, able to fit frig - to - BS sized weapons, vulnerable to cruiser sized weapons, base 75% resistance (over any armor res) against frig sized weapons, almost invulnerable to BS sized guns. battleship sized ships, able to fit frig - to - dread guns, vulnerable to BS weapons, invulnerable to frig sized ones, base 75% resistance (over any armor res) against cruiser weapons, almost invulnerable to dread guns. dreads, only prone to other dreads / pos defenses, able to fit anything, but only ships the same class the weapon fired is in. This way, people would be forced to have mixed fleets / mixed ship setups. Too bad that the majority of people only want to grind their way through the biggest gun, and they do not care about real balance or fleet composition. Thats why we have threads like this, because people are afraid to lose their 'i-win' HACs, and consider any ship being at least nearly useful against them to be a threat. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:16:00 -
[901]
You cannot expect the same DPS from different ships. Heavy Beam IIs are medium range, so their DPS output should obviously be lower than that of a thorax /w drones. So you SHOULD NOT - NEVER, NEVER EVER, NOPE - equalize the DPS of ships, but instead you have to look at their roles, and determine a DPS according to that. Meaning: Short range = high DPS Medium range = medium DPS Long range = low DPS why that? Because long range ships rely on their ability to get away before they get hurt, plus they have a damage advantage against short range ones, as the short range ships have to get close to them first. Short range on the other hand requires you to stand toe-to-toe with your opponent, meaning that unless you fit WCSs, it'll be a fight to the death. You rely on high damage to kill the opponent, and get out before you get killed by more enemies. I do not know how that is hard to understand. Just look at the different guns, and you'll see, that the shorter it's range is, the bigger the actual DPS gets. The ideal balance of course would be to have: frig sized ships, able to fit frig sized weapons / cruiser sized weapons, vulnerable to frig sized weapons, almost invulnerable to cruiser sized ones, basically invisible to BS and larger. cruiser sized ships, able to fit frig - to - BS sized weapons, vulnerable to cruiser sized weapons, base 75% resistance (over any armor res) against frig sized weapons, almost invulnerable to BS sized guns. battleship sized ships, able to fit frig - to - dread guns, vulnerable to BS weapons, invulnerable to frig sized ones, base 75% resistance (over any armor res) against cruiser weapons, almost invulnerable to dread guns. dreads, only prone to other dreads / pos defenses, able to fit anything, but only ships the same class the weapon fired is in. This way, people would be forced to have mixed fleets / mixed ship setups. Too bad that the majority of people only want to grind their way through the biggest gun, and they do not care about real balance or fleet composition. Thats why we have threads like this, because people are afraid to lose their 'i-win' HACs, and consider any ship being at least nearly useful against them to be a threat. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:37:00 -
[902] Edited by: j0sephine on 30/08/2005 13:38:16 "That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well?" I think it should perhaps be first considered if Thorax is currently at the level all cruisers should be brought up to? It's without doubt cool for a Thorax pilot that they have little to fear from smaller ships, can give the HAC more than a handful of trouble and have fair chance 1v1 to waste battleships. But now picture all cruisers become like that. Frigates no longer pose any practical harm to them. Anything bigger than cruiser turns somewhat pointless, because why spend millions on heavier ships when couple of cruisers will perform just as well... not much fun, unless you're the cruiser pilot -.o I'd like to see cruisers get a boost, but perhaps their 'desired' power level is a tad bit below were Thorax currently is at, and so she needs a small power reduction regardless of how weak other ships in her class might be. It's not the case of "nerf this or boost that" but rather "nerf this and boost that" imo... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:37:00 -
[903] Edited by: j0sephine on 30/08/2005 13:38:16 "That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well?" I think it should perhaps be first considered if Thorax is currently at the level all cruisers should be brought up to? It's without doubt cool for a Thorax pilot that they have little to fear from smaller ships, can give the HAC more than a handful of trouble and have fair chance 1v1 to waste battleships. But now picture all cruisers become like that. Frigates no longer pose any practical harm to them. Anything bigger than cruiser turns somewhat pointless, because why spend millions on heavier ships when couple of cruisers will perform just as well... not much fun, unless you're the cruiser pilot -.o I'd like to see cruisers get a boost, but perhaps their 'desired' power level is a tad bit below were Thorax currently is at, and so she needs a small power reduction regardless of how weak other ships in her class might be. It's not the case of "nerf this or boost that" but rather "nerf this and boost that" imo... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:37:00 -
[904] Edited by: j0sephine on 30/08/2005 13:38:16 "That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well?" I think it should perhaps be first considered if Thorax is currently at the level all cruisers should be brought up to? It's without doubt cool for a Thorax pilot that they have little to fear from smaller ships, can give the HAC more than a handful of trouble and have fair chance 1v1 to waste battleships. But now picture all cruisers become like that. Frigates no longer pose any practical harm to them. Anything bigger than cruiser turns somewhat pointless, because why spend millions on heavier ships when couple of cruisers will perform just as well... not much fun, unless you're the cruiser pilot -.o I'd like to see cruisers get a boost, but perhaps their 'desired' power level is a tad bit below were Thorax currently is at, and so she needs a small power reduction regardless of how weak other ships in her class might be. It's not the case of "nerf this or boost that" but rather "nerf this and boost that" imo... o.O; |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.30 14:04:00 -
[905] Edited by: BlackDog Rackh''am on 30/08/2005 14:07:28 Csebal i agree that all cruisers need a boost,as i also agree with the idea of mixed fleets.However,if we boost them all to an equal amount,starting from the point they stand now,the rax will still be too much for the rest.I wouldn't like to see plates nerfed,because it will affect every cruiser,that already has a hard time against the rax now.Plates are good because they give you options to choose from and add more variety to the game. So,we have two options. One is to nerf the rax drone bay,and THEN boost everything(let's say you get 100m3 but more PG/CPU to fit some decent medium guns),so we start boosting equal ships.Equal means able to perform in a similarly adequate way in their INTENDED ROLE.That is,a rupture or moa at long range must be as good as a thorax at close range and as good as an omen at medium range. The other way is to leave the rax as it is,and give more turrets/CPU/PG to all the other cruisers but NOT to the thorax. Both of the solutions are fine with me.However,if the 1st one is used some of the rax drivers will complain about the nerf.If the 2nd one is used,the same rax drivers will complain that they didn't get a boost,and will cry that now they can never get in range to shoot,with or without plates. That will happen because,even when it's been stated far too many times already,a lot of people can't,or don't want to,understand the problem.The problem is that every cruiser has to choose between survivability (plate+small guns) or damage (small or no tank+med guns),except the thorax which can do both of them at the same time with ONE setup,thanks to the 8 heavy drones. So,i say let the rax drivers choose what they want.Do you want a smaller bay and the ability to fit a not so heavy but decent tank with medium guns as well?Or do you want to keep your drone bay and let all the other guys EXCEPT you fly around with more medium guns,while you use frigate blasters?Choose wisely,because in the end something's got to give.You can't have your cake and eat it(or gank your cake and tank it in this case )EDIT:I also agree with josephine.Make cruisers highly customizable ships,but don't make them do everything equally well.Make the cruiser pilot have to choose what they want to do well and what they don't mind having to do not so well. |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.30 14:04:00 -
[906] Edited by: BlackDog Rackh''am on 30/08/2005 14:07:28 Csebal i agree that all cruisers need a boost,as i also agree with the idea of mixed fleets.However,if we boost them all to an equal amount,starting from the point they stand now,the rax will still be too much for the rest.I wouldn't like to see plates nerfed,because it will affect every cruiser,that already has a hard time against the rax now.Plates are good because they give you options to choose from and add more variety to the game. So,we have two options. One is to nerf the rax drone bay,and THEN boost everything(let's say you get 100m3 but more PG/CPU to fit some decent medium guns),so we start boosting equal ships.Equal means able to perform in a similarly adequate way in their INTENDED ROLE.That is,a rupture or moa at long range must be as good as a thorax at close range and as good as an omen at medium range. The other way is to leave the rax as it is,and give more turrets/CPU/PG to all the other cruisers but NOT to the thorax. Both of the solutions are fine with me.However,if the 1st one is used some of the rax drivers will complain about the nerf.If the 2nd one is used,the same rax drivers will complain that they didn't get a boost,and will cry that now they can never get in range to shoot,with or without plates. That will happen because,even when it's been stated far too many times already,a lot of people can't,or don't want to,understand the problem.The problem is that every cruiser has to choose between survivability (plate+small guns) or damage (small or no tank+med guns),except the thorax which can do both of them at the same time with ONE setup,thanks to the 8 heavy drones. So,i say let the rax drivers choose what they want.Do you want a smaller bay and the ability to fit a not so heavy but decent tank with medium guns as well?Or do you want to keep your drone bay and let all the other guys EXCEPT you fly around with more medium guns,while you use frigate blasters?Choose wisely,because in the end something's got to give.You can't have your cake and eat it(or gank your cake and tank it in this case )EDIT:I also agree with josephine.Make cruisers highly customizable ships,but don't make them do everything equally well.Make the cruiser pilot have to choose what they want to do well and what they don't mind having to do not so well. |
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.30 14:04:00 -
[907] Edited by: BlackDog Rackh''am on 30/08/2005 14:07:28 Csebal i agree that all cruisers need a boost,as i also agree with the idea of mixed fleets.However,if we boost them all to an equal amount,starting from the point they stand now,the rax will still be too much for the rest.I wouldn't like to see plates nerfed,because it will affect every cruiser,that already has a hard time against the rax now.Plates are good because they give you options to choose from and add more variety to the game. So,we have two options. One is to nerf the rax drone bay,and THEN boost everything(let's say you get 100m3 but more PG/CPU to fit some decent medium guns),so we start boosting equal ships.Equal means able to perform in a similarly adequate way in their INTENDED ROLE.That is,a rupture or moa at long range must be as good as a thorax at close range and as good as an omen at medium range. The other way is to leave the rax as it is,and give more turrets/CPU/PG to all the other cruisers but NOT to the thorax. Both of the solutions are fine with me.However,if the 1st one is used some of the rax drivers will complain about the nerf.If the 2nd one is used,the same rax drivers will complain that they didn't get a boost,and will cry that now they can never get in range to shoot,with or without plates. That will happen because,even when it's been stated far too many times already,a lot of people can't,or don't want to,understand the problem.The problem is that every cruiser has to choose between survivability (plate+small guns) or damage (small or no tank+med guns),except the thorax which can do both of them at the same time with ONE setup,thanks to the 8 heavy drones. So,i say let the rax drivers choose what they want.Do you want a smaller bay and the ability to fit a not so heavy but decent tank with medium guns as well?Or do you want to keep your drone bay and let all the other guys EXCEPT you fly around with more medium guns,while you use frigate blasters?Choose wisely,because in the end something's got to give.You can't have your cake and eat it(or gank your cake and tank it in this case )EDIT:I also agree with josephine.Make cruisers highly customizable ships,but don't make them do everything equally well.Make the cruiser pilot have to choose what they want to do well and what they don't mind having to do not so well. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:11:00 -
[908]
That would make sense....... .............if my Heavy Drones and small Lasers/Rails weren't able to kill ceptors and other ships at 25km. I would hardly call that short range. Give the Omen 6 turret hardpoints. Your shortrange Rax should never do more damage at medium range than my medium range specialty Omen according to you should it? I mean we all want to "boost cruisers up the the Rax level". Oh yea, the Thorax can do that type of damage and still mount a plate that adds 3300 armor. I want that for my Omen too. Omen with 6 heavy pulse II's and 3300 more armor plz.  It's silly to think that the aforementioned Omen would be balanced. It's just as silly to think that the Rax in it's current state is balanced. The dronebay should be reduced. Or if it wants to keep it's DPS and be short ranged king then limit it to blasters only and make its heavy drones limited to 5km. Oh wait that is silly too. Maybe we should just reduce it's dronebay then so it's in line with the other Gallente ships. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:11:00 -
[909]
That would make sense....... .............if my Heavy Drones and small Lasers/Rails weren't able to kill ceptors and other ships at 25km. I would hardly call that short range. Give the Omen 6 turret hardpoints. Your shortrange Rax should never do more damage at medium range than my medium range specialty Omen according to you should it? I mean we all want to "boost cruisers up the the Rax level". Oh yea, the Thorax can do that type of damage and still mount a plate that adds 3300 armor. I want that for my Omen too. Omen with 6 heavy pulse II's and 3300 more armor plz. It's silly to think that the aforementioned Omen would be balanced. It's just as silly to think that the Rax in it's current state is balanced. The dronebay should be reduced. Or if it wants to keep it's DPS and be short ranged king then limit it to blasters only and make its heavy drones limited to 5km. Oh wait that is silly too. Maybe we should just reduce it's dronebay then so it's in line with the other Gallente ships. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:11:00 -
[910]
That would make sense....... .............if my Heavy Drones and small Lasers/Rails weren't able to kill ceptors and other ships at 25km. I would hardly call that short range. Give the Omen 6 turret hardpoints. Your shortrange Rax should never do more damage at medium range than my medium range specialty Omen according to you should it? I mean we all want to "boost cruisers up the the Rax level". Oh yea, the Thorax can do that type of damage and still mount a plate that adds 3300 armor. I want that for my Omen too. Omen with 6 heavy pulse II's and 3300 more armor plz. It's silly to think that the aforementioned Omen would be balanced. It's just as silly to think that the Rax in it's current state is balanced. The dronebay should be reduced. Or if it wants to keep it's DPS and be short ranged king then limit it to blasters only and make its heavy drones limited to 5km. Oh wait that is silly too. Maybe we should just reduce it's dronebay then so it's in line with the other Gallente ships. Nyxus
|
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:56:00 -
[911]
You shouldn't compare turrets to drones / missiles. Its the most stupides thing ever done on these boards, and my mind always starts to melt away, when i see someone doing it. Missiles / drones have a terrible damage delay. Even at 10km, they take a good 10 seconds to reach the target, and start dealing some damage. Missiles do not have that delay after the patch, but instead they got their damage nerfed to an extent, that i could cry whenever i see on of them hit the target - not that i see too many lately. So if the target is fast enough, drones will never catch it, not even light ones. And FYI: 25km is about the end of short range. I doubt the average small gun (not talking about blasters and autocannons here) could deal any kind of noticeable damage at 25km with average skills. the real threat range is more like 15km, and FYI: small guns should very well kill any ceptor that spends too long time inside range. I do agree though, that heavy drones shouldn't be hitting frigates, esp. not ceptors. Med drones.. maybe. Light ones for sure. (see my last post about a more distinct separation of ship classes and their weapons)
Drones should do more dps than a gun of their class (and for that i consider heavy drones to be medium weapons, with mediums being small, and light ones being civilian class cr4p), just as missiles should do more dps than a gun of their class. Why? Because you cannot 'disable' guns, but you can destroy drones and missiles. You do not have to wait for the bullets to reach the target, but you have to wait for drones and missiles. Finally, you can't outrun bullets, but you can definitely outrun a missile or a drone (well.. not true for the missile anymore, not that it matters). So while MWDing against a gunship is suicide, MWDing against a drone carrier means no drones to hit ya. It is easy to talk about 'balance' and yell that it is 'too strong'. Have you considered all these factors? How long it takes before it starts dealing damage? How easily it can switch between targets? How fast they can be taken out, effectively disabling the attacking ship? How much more armor the drone carrier would need to survive an 1on1 fight with a gunship? These things all effect balance, and many more. I doubt you ever took the time to think about it, as it is easier to just yell: fix it. Well, for your info. It is not broken. The other cruiser? Thats another question. I'm trying to be constructive here. Are you? I suggest you try it. For all cases, do not talk about balance unless you know what that word means. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:56:00 -
[912]
You shouldn't compare turrets to drones / missiles. Its the most stupides thing ever done on these boards, and my mind always starts to melt away, when i see someone doing it. Missiles / drones have a terrible damage delay. Even at 10km, they take a good 10 seconds to reach the target, and start dealing some damage. Missiles do not have that delay after the patch, but instead they got their damage nerfed to an extent, that i could cry whenever i see on of them hit the target - not that i see too many lately. So if the target is fast enough, drones will never catch it, not even light ones. And FYI: 25km is about the end of short range. I doubt the average small gun (not talking about blasters and autocannons here) could deal any kind of noticeable damage at 25km with average skills. the real threat range is more like 15km, and FYI: small guns should very well kill any ceptor that spends too long time inside range. I do agree though, that heavy drones shouldn't be hitting frigates, esp. not ceptors. Med drones.. maybe. Light ones for sure. (see my last post about a more distinct separation of ship classes and their weapons)
Drones should do more dps than a gun of their class (and for that i consider heavy drones to be medium weapons, with mediums being small, and light ones being civilian class cr4p), just as missiles should do more dps than a gun of their class. Why? Because you cannot 'disable' guns, but you can destroy drones and missiles. You do not have to wait for the bullets to reach the target, but you have to wait for drones and missiles. Finally, you can't outrun bullets, but you can definitely outrun a missile or a drone (well.. not true for the missile anymore, not that it matters). So while MWDing against a gunship is suicide, MWDing against a drone carrier means no drones to hit ya. It is easy to talk about 'balance' and yell that it is 'too strong'. Have you considered all these factors? How long it takes before it starts dealing damage? How easily it can switch between targets? How fast they can be taken out, effectively disabling the attacking ship? How much more armor the drone carrier would need to survive an 1on1 fight with a gunship? These things all effect balance, and many more. I doubt you ever took the time to think about it, as it is easier to just yell: fix it. Well, for your info. It is not broken. The other cruiser? Thats another question. I'm trying to be constructive here. Are you? I suggest you try it. For all cases, do not talk about balance unless you know what that word means. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:56:00 -
[913]
You shouldn't compare turrets to drones / missiles. Its the most stupides thing ever done on these boards, and my mind always starts to melt away, when i see someone doing it. Missiles / drones have a terrible damage delay. Even at 10km, they take a good 10 seconds to reach the target, and start dealing some damage. Missiles do not have that delay after the patch, but instead they got their damage nerfed to an extent, that i could cry whenever i see on of them hit the target - not that i see too many lately. So if the target is fast enough, drones will never catch it, not even light ones. And FYI: 25km is about the end of short range. I doubt the average small gun (not talking about blasters and autocannons here) could deal any kind of noticeable damage at 25km with average skills. the real threat range is more like 15km, and FYI: small guns should very well kill any ceptor that spends too long time inside range. I do agree though, that heavy drones shouldn't be hitting frigates, esp. not ceptors. Med drones.. maybe. Light ones for sure. (see my last post about a more distinct separation of ship classes and their weapons)
Drones should do more dps than a gun of their class (and for that i consider heavy drones to be medium weapons, with mediums being small, and light ones being civilian class cr4p), just as missiles should do more dps than a gun of their class. Why? Because you cannot 'disable' guns, but you can destroy drones and missiles. You do not have to wait for the bullets to reach the target, but you have to wait for drones and missiles. Finally, you can't outrun bullets, but you can definitely outrun a missile or a drone (well.. not true for the missile anymore, not that it matters). So while MWDing against a gunship is suicide, MWDing against a drone carrier means no drones to hit ya. It is easy to talk about 'balance' and yell that it is 'too strong'. Have you considered all these factors? How long it takes before it starts dealing damage? How easily it can switch between targets? How fast they can be taken out, effectively disabling the attacking ship? How much more armor the drone carrier would need to survive an 1on1 fight with a gunship? These things all effect balance, and many more. I doubt you ever took the time to think about it, as it is easier to just yell: fix it. Well, for your info. It is not broken. The other cruiser? Thats another question. I'm trying to be constructive here. Are you? I suggest you try it. For all cases, do not talk about balance unless you know what that word means. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
Sorja |
Posted - 2005.08.30 17:10:00 -
[914]
HAHAH! It was you! Fun fight indeed, I love you guys, I mean it, you are a cool bunch I was busy tackling some of your battleships so I only kept a missile launcher on you just... because I ♥ you Shame on you for forcing me to bail out before the fight was over Back on topic, I wasted my weekly Moa yesterday againt a Rax. Everybody in my corp wonders why I still fly that pile of poo, but hey! I'm sentimental and I swore I'd find a way to put that thing to any use (besides sniping, bleh, only for pussies). I knew I had no chance at all but my 'trash' fittings are tech I besides the mag stab II so I just engage whoever challenges me in remotely fair fights. We agreed on a planet, I warped at 15 and, lucky me! he also warped in at 15 so I didn't even need to use my MWD (note that the rax has a HUGE advantage when it comes to MWD, on top of everything else). Unfortunately, he had electron blasters fitted, just like me, so I could not avoid enough of his guns while killing his drones. The fight was over in less than 40 seconds, despite my 800mm plate, kinetic hardener and medium armor rep. Even a medium smartbomb (should I equip a smartbomb that cripples my powergrid only to fight thoraxes?) wouldn't have killed his drones in time, it requires around 50 seconds to get rid of the drones. When my ship exploded, his armor was still around 80% because a Rax has 3 mids, well enough to tackle, MWD and web, and 5 lows which allow very good tanking while the Moa can't use his wonderfull shield boost bonus since the mids are devoted to other things, forcing it to armor tank for dog fights. I had 5 small drones on him while he had 10 heavy drones, for the same guns. 25m¦ dronebay on a Moa for the lose In other words, boost the worthless cruisers FFS! Kill mails |
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North |
Posted - 2005.08.30 17:10:00 -
[915]
HAHAH! It was you! Fun fight indeed, I love you guys, I mean it, you are a cool bunch I was busy tackling some of your battleships so I only kept a missile launcher on you just... because I ♥ you Shame on you for forcing me to bail out before the fight was over Back on topic, I wasted my weekly Moa yesterday againt a Rax. Everybody in my corp wonders why I still fly that pile of poo, but hey! I'm sentimental and I swore I'd find a way to put that thing to any use (besides sniping, bleh, only for pussies). I knew I had no chance at all but my 'trash' fittings are tech I besides the mag stab II so I just engage whoever challenges me in remotely fair fights. We agreed on a planet, I warped at 15 and, lucky me! he also warped in at 15 so I didn't even need to use my MWD (note that the rax has a HUGE advantage when it comes to MWD, on top of everything else). Unfortunately, he had electron blasters fitted, just like me, so I could not avoid enough of his guns while killing his drones. The fight was over in less than 40 seconds, despite my 800mm plate, kinetic hardener and medium armor rep. Even a medium smartbomb (should I equip a smartbomb that cripples my powergrid only to fight thoraxes?) wouldn't have killed his drones in time, it requires around 50 seconds to get rid of the drones. When my ship exploded, his armor was still around 80% because a Rax has 3 mids, well enough to tackle, MWD and web, and 5 lows which allow very good tanking while the Moa can't use his wonderfull shield boost bonus since the mids are devoted to other things, forcing it to armor tank for dog fights. I had 5 small drones on him while he had 10 heavy drones, for the same guns. 25m¦ dronebay on a Moa for the lose In other words, boost the worthless cruisers FFS! ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North |
Posted - 2005.08.30 17:10:00 -
[916]
HAHAH! It was you! Fun fight indeed, I love you guys, I mean it, you are a cool bunch I was busy tackling some of your battleships so I only kept a missile launcher on you just... because I ♥ you Shame on you for forcing me to bail out before the fight was over Back on topic, I wasted my weekly Moa yesterday againt a Rax. Everybody in my corp wonders why I still fly that pile of poo, but hey! I'm sentimental and I swore I'd find a way to put that thing to any use (besides sniping, bleh, only for pussies). I knew I had no chance at all but my 'trash' fittings are tech I besides the mag stab II so I just engage whoever challenges me in remotely fair fights. We agreed on a planet, I warped at 15 and, lucky me! he also warped in at 15 so I didn't even need to use my MWD (note that the rax has a HUGE advantage when it comes to MWD, on top of everything else). Unfortunately, he had electron blasters fitted, just like me, so I could not avoid enough of his guns while killing his drones. The fight was over in less than 40 seconds, despite my 800mm plate, kinetic hardener and medium armor rep. Even a medium smartbomb (should I equip a smartbomb that cripples my powergrid only to fight thoraxes?) wouldn't have killed his drones in time, it requires around 50 seconds to get rid of the drones. When my ship exploded, his armor was still around 80% because a Rax has 3 mids, well enough to tackle, MWD and web, and 5 lows which allow very good tanking while the Moa can't use his wonderfull shield boost bonus since the mids are devoted to other things, forcing it to armor tank for dog fights. I had 5 small drones on him while he had 10 heavy drones, for the same guns. 25m¦ dronebay on a Moa for the lose In other words, boost the worthless cruisers FFS! ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Ashelth |
Posted - 2005.08.30 18:01:00 -
[917] Anyone else seeing some of the people screaming against nerfing the thorax the same ones screaming to nerf the raven? I am :) Tis funnah |
 Ashelth Caldari The Raven Warriors |
Posted - 2005.08.30 18:01:00 -
[918] Anyone else seeing some of the people screaming against nerfing the thorax the same ones screaming to nerf the raven? I am :) Tis funnah |
Ashelth Caldari The Raven Warriors |
Posted - 2005.08.30 18:01:00 -
[919] Anyone else seeing some of the people screaming against nerfing the thorax the same ones screaming to nerf the raven? I am :) Tis funnah |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 18:26:00 -
[920]
I had noticed a few names, but didn't want to say...
10.... i belive you mean 8, as a rax can't fit 10 heavy drones. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 18:26:00 -
[921]
I had noticed a few names, but didn't want to say...
10.... i belive you mean 8, as a rax can't fit 10 heavy drones. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.30 18:26:00 -
[922]
I had noticed a few names, but didn't want to say...
10.... i belive you mean 8, as a rax can't fit 10 heavy drones. |
Manyara |
Posted - 2005.08.31 02:29:00 -
[923] Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. THE THORAX DOES NOT NEED NERFING!!!! Ohnoes, my ibis got blowed up by a uber rax! nerf it! Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones. Web a rax at 10k and his electron 2s wont scratch you. If you wanted to be really clever, you could web his drones before you shoot them too... NOTHING NEEDS TO BE NERFED AT THE MOMENT!!! The ship balance is pretty good in game, so some ships shine better in some roles than others, but if everyone was flying EXACTLY the same ship with EXACTLY the same capabilities, EVE would be boring. You're gonna die every now and then, coz there's always a bigger fish. So stop whining, start thinking. ---------------- How would you like your ass? |
 Manyara |
Posted - 2005.08.31 02:29:00 -
[924] Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. THE THORAX DOES NOT NEED NERFING!!!! Ohnoes, my ibis got blowed up by a uber rax! nerf it! Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones. Web a rax at 10k and his electron 2s wont scratch you. If you wanted to be really clever, you could web his drones before you shoot them too... NOTHING NEEDS TO BE NERFED AT THE MOMENT!!! The ship balance is pretty good in game, so some ships shine better in some roles than others, but if everyone was flying EXACTLY the same ship with EXACTLY the same capabilities, EVE would be boring. You're gonna die every now and then, coz there's always a bigger fish. So stop whining, start thinking. ---------------- How would you like your ass? |
Manyara |
Posted - 2005.08.31 02:29:00 -
[925] Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. THE THORAX DOES NOT NEED NERFING!!!! Ohnoes, my ibis got blowed up by a uber rax! nerf it! Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones. Web a rax at 10k and his electron 2s wont scratch you. If you wanted to be really clever, you could web his drones before you shoot them too... NOTHING NEEDS TO BE NERFED AT THE MOMENT!!! The ship balance is pretty good in game, so some ships shine better in some roles than others, but if everyone was flying EXACTLY the same ship with EXACTLY the same capabilities, EVE would be boring. You're gonna die every now and then, coz there's always a bigger fish. So stop whining, start thinking. ---------------- How would you like your ass? |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.31 03:03:00 -
[926] "Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. (..) Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones." It helps if you read the thread before responding to it. And it helps to test the armchair commander tactics before you present them as solutions... (all advice you offered here was already offered and discussed over the course of this thread, couple of times by now. They don't really work on cruiser combat level. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.31 03:03:00 -
[927] "Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. (..) Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones." It helps if you read the thread before responding to it. And it helps to test the armchair commander tactics before you present them as solutions... (all advice you offered here was already offered and discussed over the course of this thread, couple of times by now. They don't really work on cruiser combat level. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.31 03:03:00 -
[928] "Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. (..) Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones." It helps if you read the thread before responding to it. And it helps to test the armchair commander tactics before you present them as solutions... (all advice you offered here was already offered and discussed over the course of this thread, couple of times by now. They don't really work on cruiser combat level. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[929]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[930]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[931]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus
|
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[932] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[933] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[934] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... |
xOm3gAx |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:34:00 -
[935] you know i read through alot of this and though i can see points on both sides does the "nerf the rax" side all know (i know alot of u do as i know who quite a few of u are) that all u have to do to kill a rax is drop its drones then hit the rax.... also on a side note imho other cruisers should be brought up to par with what they should be. im tired of everything being nerfed, and im not even gonna bother making a list if you've been in the game since castor or ealier you all know about the nerfs that broke more then it fixed. i actually wrote alot more but it had to much flame bait in it dispite the valid points made. Bottom line bring other cruisers up to par before touching the rax odds are they can just leave the rax as is if they did that and it would be a tad more balanced though bb's work great vs rax's and a few others i cant think of atm. ----------------- *Decloaks and starts blasting your sig* Applesauce Biotch Ok who nerf batted my sig >again<? *^^Bows^^* ^^ALL HAIL THE UBERNESS OF Thee^^ Succumb to your nightmares Darkness |
 xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:34:00 -
[936] you know i read through alot of this and though i can see points on both sides does the "nerf the rax" side all know (i know alot of u do as i know who quite a few of u are) that all u have to do to kill a rax is drop its drones then hit the rax.... also on a side note imho other cruisers should be brought up to par with what they should be. im tired of everything being nerfed, and im not even gonna bother making a list if you've been in the game since castor or ealier you all know about the nerfs that broke more then it fixed. i actually wrote alot more but it had to much flame bait in it dispite the valid points made. Bottom line bring other cruisers up to par before touching the rax odds are they can just leave the rax as is if they did that and it would be a tad more balanced though bb's work great vs rax's and a few others i cant think of atm. "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99 Currently Accepting Contracts contact xOm3gAx ingame. |
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:34:00 -
[937] you know i read through alot of this and though i can see points on both sides does the "nerf the rax" side all know (i know alot of u do as i know who quite a few of u are) that all u have to do to kill a rax is drop its drones then hit the rax.... also on a side note imho other cruisers should be brought up to par with what they should be. im tired of everything being nerfed, and im not even gonna bother making a list if you've been in the game since castor or ealier you all know about the nerfs that broke more then it fixed. i actually wrote alot more but it had to much flame bait in it dispite the valid points made. Bottom line bring other cruisers up to par before touching the rax odds are they can just leave the rax as is if they did that and it would be a tad more balanced though bb's work great vs rax's and a few others i cant think of atm. "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99 Currently Accepting Contracts contact xOm3gAx ingame. |
Jim Raynor |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:42:00 -
[938]
yes let's beef up the other 12 cruisers so they can go toe to toe with the thorax.. whatever. thorax needs its drone bay nerfed, if you want a drone cruiser, get a vexor, thorax isn't -supposed- to be it.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:42:00 -
[939]
yes let's beef up the other 12 cruisers so they can go toe to toe with the thorax.. whatever. thorax needs its drone bay nerfed, if you want a drone cruiser, get a vexor, thorax isn't -supposed- to be it.. ------ I'll make a sig later. |
Jim Raynor Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:42:00 -
[940]
yes let's beef up the other 12 cruisers so they can go toe to toe with the thorax.. whatever. thorax needs its drone bay nerfed, if you want a drone cruiser, get a vexor, thorax isn't -supposed- to be it.. ------ I'll make a sig later. |
JimaraJa |
Posted - 2005.08.31 07:16:00 -
[941] The MK2 Project - Small ship improvements Improve the Tech 1 Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Minor changes in most cases, but some underutilized (or not used) ships will get new roles, perhaps a minimized role of Tech 2 ships, like Logistics. Could lead to minor changes to Faction ships and Tech 2 ships if deemed appropriate (You currently need to have special roles to access these ships on Singularity). From the In-Testing section of Patch Notes. People need to chill out and wait and see what they do in the MK2 Project. |
 JimaraJa |
Posted - 2005.08.31 07:16:00 -
[942] The MK2 Project - Small ship improvements Improve the Tech 1 Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Minor changes in most cases, but some underutilized (or not used) ships will get new roles, perhaps a minimized role of Tech 2 ships, like Logistics. Could lead to minor changes to Faction ships and Tech 2 ships if deemed appropriate (You currently need to have special roles to access these ships on Singularity). From the In-Testing section of Patch Notes. People need to chill out and wait and see what they do in the MK2 Project. |
JimaraJa |
Posted - 2005.08.31 07:16:00 -
[943] The MK2 Project - Small ship improvements Improve the Tech 1 Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Minor changes in most cases, but some underutilized (or not used) ships will get new roles, perhaps a minimized role of Tech 2 ships, like Logistics. Could lead to minor changes to Faction ships and Tech 2 ships if deemed appropriate (You currently need to have special roles to access these ships on Singularity). From the In-Testing section of Patch Notes. People need to chill out and wait and see what they do in the MK2 Project. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[944]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[945]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[946]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus
|
Elrathias |
Posted - 2005.08.31 18:10:00 -
[947]
half-wrong, cladari can fit them but not utilize them. examples: carcal, blackbird. moa can accutally use it but its worthless like the others anyway. -------------------------- |
 Elrathias Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2005.08.31 18:10:00 -
[948]
half-wrong, cladari can fit them but not utilize them. examples: carcal, blackbird. moa can accutally use it but its worthless like the others anyway. -------------------------- |
Elrathias Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2005.08.31 18:10:00 -
[949]
half-wrong, cladari can fit them but not utilize them. examples: carcal, blackbird. moa can accutally use it but its worthless like the others anyway. -------------------------- |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[950] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:39:27 *** APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG, 4 PART POST, BUT I DECIDED TO ANSWER TWO POSTS OF MY FELLOW NYXUS IN DETAIL, AND SINCE HE WASNT SHORT EITHER, THE END RESULT BECAME ... LONG. THANK TO THE QUOTES. ***
Really? How so? Are cruisers supposed to be 'dead on sight' kind of ships? A ship either needs to have enough firepower to dish out its share of damage while it lasts, or enough armor to last while it dishes out its share of damage. The thorax is the second kind of ship at the moment. It is slow to deal its damage, but it deals a good ammount of damage. More than other ships using plates, that's sure. However, it is not the fault of the 'rax, that other ships are unbalanced, and not really up to the new TL2 playing field. Face it. With TL2 out, ships deal a lot more damage on average. Some TL2 ships have resistances, that make the 'rax look like some thin toilet paper. Unless TL1 ships get a boost to their survivalability, they die before they even have a chance to fire. Only 'not TL2 assault' ships i see in battles are interceptors, because they can outrun the bullets, battleships, because they've got the big guns and thoraxes / mallers, because they can fit the plates and still retain some sense of usefulness. Before the plate changes, it was all BS, Inty, AF or HAC. Nothing else did any good. Do you find that to be alright? Don't you think, that instead of nerfing those few TL1 ships, that can still be used in PvP, maybe it would be time to make the other ones useful? Do you think that i'm the one with it's head in the sand?
Thats right, no other cruiser can, and even with these stats, the rax is nowhere near uber. Sure it beats most other TL1 cruisers, but thats a problem with those cruisers that needs to be addressed. With these changes, the rax has finally GOT A CHANCE against battleships and even TL2 ships. Do they win all the time? Hell no. But if there is just one more rax with ya, then you got some serious chance, if the opponent is not prepared enough. You think that 2vs1 should not win, just because that 1 happens to be in a ship worth 100 million ISK, then think again. Those are not worth 100 mils, because they are 10 times better than the rax, but because there is an artificial lack of supply for them. Period. 1 on 1, about any decent HAC can beat a rax. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[951] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:45:10
I fly those babies every day, and i know very well what they can, and can't do. You know what, one of my mates soloed a Armageddon with his Rax. The arma had 10 heavy drones, the rax had 8. You know what happened? The rax started to shoot down the drones of the Arma, and once the drones died, he commenced killing the BS. Now if that BS would have done the same, the rax would now be dead. If the BS would have had even a single Large SB, the rax would now be dead. He didnt. Made the mistake when fitting, made the mistake when engaging and surely made the mistake when selecting the primary target. FYI: Drones can attack / take out drones. Small guns do as well. About the other stats. Sure the drones are in range of the target within 13 seconds, unless the target is moving away. If the target is only moving at 500m/s, which is reasonable from even a cruiser, the drones would take 25-30 seconds to reach firing range. Another correction is drone DPS. The highest damaging drone, the Ogre does 22dps on TL1. That is thermal damage, meaning that the minimum natural shield resistance against it, which is 20% recudes your DPS to 17.6 agains the shield, and armor is even worse with just 12.1 on armor. That with maxed out Heavy Drones skill. Let's average the two for now: 14.85DPS / drone (x8 drones = 118.8DPS) Now TL2 drones hit a lot harder, but not that much either. Base DPS is 29.4 (with maxed out drone skills, and TL2 specialization skills). Reduce that with the above mentioned resistances, you'll end up with 23.52 on shields, 16.17 on armor, or 19.845DPS on average. (x8 = 158.76DPS) Thats 158.76DPS, from the best drones, with the best skill you can get. Did i mention, that you spent more on the drones, that you spent on the whole ship?
I make those videos. At least i do as well. You know what? Videos are made about victories, about ganks. They do not show how i lost my last 10 thoraxes. They do not show how i got ganked by 3 assault friggies and their 9 small guns. They do not show the other side of the 'oh so powerful thorax world'. They make you believe, that the ship is uber, that you can gank anything that comes in your way. Well, in reality, thoraxes never - or rarely - work alone. They MUST work in packs, as a single thorax does not have the firepower to go against anything more than the odd AF, Inty or TL1 cruiser. You can have 10 thoraxes, and a single smartbomb fitted BS can wipe out your fleet's firepower in a matter of seconds. You want to tell me the pros and cons of those ships? Tell me how overpowered or unbalanced they are? You must wake up sooner to do that. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[952] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:39:27 *** APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG, 4 PART POST, BUT I DECIDED TO ANSWER TWO POSTS OF MY FELLOW NYXUS IN DETAIL, AND SINCE HE WASNT SHORT EITHER, THE END RESULT BECAME ... LONG. THANK TO THE QUOTES. ***
Really? How so? Are cruisers supposed to be 'dead on sight' kind of ships? A ship either needs to have enough firepower to dish out its share of damage while it lasts, or enough armor to last while it dishes out its share of damage. The thorax is the second kind of ship at the moment. It is slow to deal its damage, but it deals a good ammount of damage. More than other ships using plates, that's sure. However, it is not the fault of the 'rax, that other ships are unbalanced, and not really up to the new TL2 playing field. Face it. With TL2 out, ships deal a lot more damage on average. Some TL2 ships have resistances, that make the 'rax look like some thin toilet paper. Unless TL1 ships get a boost to their survivalability, they die before they even have a chance to fire. Only 'not TL2 assault' ships i see in battles are interceptors, because they can outrun the bullets, battleships, because they've got the big guns and thoraxes / mallers, because they can fit the plates and still retain some sense of usefulness. Before the plate changes, it was all BS, Inty, AF or HAC. Nothing else did any good. Do you find that to be alright? Don't you think, that instead of nerfing those few TL1 ships, that can still be used in PvP, maybe it would be time to make the other ones useful? Do you think that i'm the one with it's head in the sand?
Thats right, no other cruiser can, and even with these stats, the rax is nowhere near uber. Sure it beats most other TL1 cruisers, but thats a problem with those cruisers that needs to be addressed. With these changes, the rax has finally GOT A CHANCE against battleships and even TL2 ships. Do they win all the time? Hell no. But if there is just one more rax with ya, then you got some serious chance, if the opponent is not prepared enough. You think that 2vs1 should not win, just because that 1 happens to be in a ship worth 100 million ISK, then think again. Those are not worth 100 mils, because they are 10 times better than the rax, but because there is an artificial lack of supply for them. Period. 1 on 1, about any decent HAC can beat a rax. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[953] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:45:10
I fly those babies every day, and i know very well what they can, and can't do. You know what, one of my mates soloed a Armageddon with his Rax. The arma had 10 heavy drones, the rax had 8. You know what happened? The rax started to shoot down the drones of the Arma, and once the drones died, he commenced killing the BS. Now if that BS would have done the same, the rax would now be dead. If the BS would have had even a single Large SB, the rax would now be dead. He didnt. Made the mistake when fitting, made the mistake when engaging and surely made the mistake when selecting the primary target. FYI: Drones can attack / take out drones. Small guns do as well. About the other stats. Sure the drones are in range of the target within 13 seconds, unless the target is moving away. If the target is only moving at 500m/s, which is reasonable from even a cruiser, the drones would take 25-30 seconds to reach firing range. Another correction is drone DPS. The highest damaging drone, the Ogre does 22dps on TL1. That is thermal damage, meaning that the minimum natural shield resistance against it, which is 20% recudes your DPS to 17.6 agains the shield, and armor is even worse with just 12.1 on armor. That with maxed out Heavy Drones skill. Let's average the two for now: 14.85DPS / drone (x8 drones = 118.8DPS) Now TL2 drones hit a lot harder, but not that much either. Base DPS is 29.4 (with maxed out drone skills, and TL2 specialization skills). Reduce that with the above mentioned resistances, you'll end up with 23.52 on shields, 16.17 on armor, or 19.845DPS on average. (x8 = 158.76DPS) Thats 158.76DPS, from the best drones, with the best skill you can get. Did i mention, that you spent more on the drones, that you spent on the whole ship?
I make those videos. At least i do as well. You know what? Videos are made about victories, about ganks. They do not show how i lost my last 10 thoraxes. They do not show how i got ganked by 3 assault friggies and their 9 small guns. They do not show the other side of the 'oh so powerful thorax world'. They make you believe, that the ship is uber, that you can gank anything that comes in your way. Well, in reality, thoraxes never - or rarely - work alone. They MUST work in packs, as a single thorax does not have the firepower to go against anything more than the odd AF, Inty or TL1 cruiser. You can have 10 thoraxes, and a single smartbomb fitted BS can wipe out your fleet's firepower in a matter of seconds. You want to tell me the pros and cons of those ships? Tell me how overpowered or unbalanced they are? You must wake up sooner to do that. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[954] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:39:27 *** APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG, 4 PART POST, BUT I DECIDED TO ANSWER TWO POSTS OF MY FELLOW NYXUS IN DETAIL, AND SINCE HE WASNT SHORT EITHER, THE END RESULT BECAME ... LONG. THANK TO THE QUOTES. ***
Really? How so? Are cruisers supposed to be 'dead on sight' kind of ships? A ship either needs to have enough firepower to dish out its share of damage while it lasts, or enough armor to last while it dishes out its share of damage. The thorax is the second kind of ship at the moment. It is slow to deal its damage, but it deals a good ammount of damage. More than other ships using plates, that's sure. However, it is not the fault of the 'rax, that other ships are unbalanced, and not really up to the new TL2 playing field. Face it. With TL2 out, ships deal a lot more damage on average. Some TL2 ships have resistances, that make the 'rax look like some thin toilet paper. Unless TL1 ships get a boost to their survivalability, they die before they even have a chance to fire. Only 'not TL2 assault' ships i see in battles are interceptors, because they can outrun the bullets, battleships, because they've got the big guns and thoraxes / mallers, because they can fit the plates and still retain some sense of usefulness. Before the plate changes, it was all BS, Inty, AF or HAC. Nothing else did any good. Do you find that to be alright? Don't you think, that instead of nerfing those few TL1 ships, that can still be used in PvP, maybe it would be time to make the other ones useful? Do you think that i'm the one with it's head in the sand?
Thats right, no other cruiser can, and even with these stats, the rax is nowhere near uber. Sure it beats most other TL1 cruisers, but thats a problem with those cruisers that needs to be addressed. With these changes, the rax has finally GOT A CHANCE against battleships and even TL2 ships. Do they win all the time? Hell no. But if there is just one more rax with ya, then you got some serious chance, if the opponent is not prepared enough. You think that 2vs1 should not win, just because that 1 happens to be in a ship worth 100 million ISK, then think again. Those are not worth 100 mils, because they are 10 times better than the rax, but because there is an artificial lack of supply for them. Period. 1 on 1, about any decent HAC can beat a rax. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[955] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:45:10
I fly those babies every day, and i know very well what they can, and can't do. You know what, one of my mates soloed a Armageddon with his Rax. The arma had 10 heavy drones, the rax had 8. You know what happened? The rax started to shoot down the drones of the Arma, and once the drones died, he commenced killing the BS. Now if that BS would have done the same, the rax would now be dead. If the BS would have had even a single Large SB, the rax would now be dead. He didnt. Made the mistake when fitting, made the mistake when engaging and surely made the mistake when selecting the primary target. FYI: Drones can attack / take out drones. Small guns do as well. About the other stats. Sure the drones are in range of the target within 13 seconds, unless the target is moving away. If the target is only moving at 500m/s, which is reasonable from even a cruiser, the drones would take 25-30 seconds to reach firing range. Another correction is drone DPS. The highest damaging drone, the Ogre does 22dps on TL1. That is thermal damage, meaning that the minimum natural shield resistance against it, which is 20% recudes your DPS to 17.6 agains the shield, and armor is even worse with just 12.1 on armor. That with maxed out Heavy Drones skill. Let's average the two for now: 14.85DPS / drone (x8 drones = 118.8DPS) Now TL2 drones hit a lot harder, but not that much either. Base DPS is 29.4 (with maxed out drone skills, and TL2 specialization skills). Reduce that with the above mentioned resistances, you'll end up with 23.52 on shields, 16.17 on armor, or 19.845DPS on average. (x8 = 158.76DPS) Thats 158.76DPS, from the best drones, with the best skill you can get. Did i mention, that you spent more on the drones, that you spent on the whole ship?
I make those videos. At least i do as well. You know what? Videos are made about victories, about ganks. They do not show how i lost my last 10 thoraxes. They do not show how i got ganked by 3 assault friggies and their 9 small guns. They do not show the other side of the 'oh so powerful thorax world'. They make you believe, that the ship is uber, that you can gank anything that comes in your way. Well, in reality, thoraxes never - or rarely - work alone. They MUST work in packs, as a single thorax does not have the firepower to go against anything more than the odd AF, Inty or TL1 cruiser. You can have 10 thoraxes, and a single smartbomb fitted BS can wipe out your fleet's firepower in a matter of seconds. You want to tell me the pros and cons of those ships? Tell me how overpowered or unbalanced they are? You must wake up sooner to do that. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[956]
Nowhere. As i said, the thorax is just there, where all other cruisers should be on the power scale.
Other ships are clearly unbalanced. Drone carriers should have double or tripe of the bay size they do have now, so they can have spare drones with them as well. If you reduce the 'rax bay to 100, it will solve nothing. Thoraxes will only be able to go up against groups about half the size they go now, weakening them significantly, but since thoraxes rarely fly alone, they'll still take the kills. So what? Take the easy way, and create a half solution, that solves nothing at the end?
The problem is, that to be of any use, you need the 1600 plates, but if you fit those, you do not have the powergrid to do anything else. The thorax is the exception here. So instead of the plates, maybe they should have increased (doubled maybe) the HP of all cruisers, so that when fitting smaller plates, their survivalability still stays somewhere on the positive side of the scale.
See.. The problem is, that as Assault Frigs made frigates obsolete, so did HACs with cruisers. a) A cruiser can't deal enough damage to kill a HAC, damn.. not even to kill an AF, or if it could deal enough damage, it sure as hell do not live long enough to deal that damage. b) Intys are just too fast to be fought effectively from a cruiser. c) Battleships outclass cruisers in both firepower and armor. I have to ask your question then: why would i fly a cruiser? What should be it's role? Shouldn't it have at least a chance against HACs? Shouldnt it be able to blast away any frig class ship if fitted with small guns and appropriate tracking / slowing equipment? Shouldnt it be able to stand long enough to be more than just 'splash.. oh my.. was that a cruiser?' for a BS pilot? I think it should. Now apart from the rax, no other cruiser qualifies with a 'because it has a chance' answer to the question i asked. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[957] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:47:22
Just because you are seemingly obsessed with numbers. Short range is anything below 40km for me. between 40 and 80 km, it is medium range, and outside 80km, it is long range.
To answer your question. Because in an armageddon, i can have 10 times the armor, 5 times the hitting power just from the guns, and 2 more heavy drones out. Is that an answer good enough for you? I wouldnt fly any other TL1 cruiser though, as they are not worth flying. If you want to achieve that with the rax, then go ahead. You'll be first to leave when EVE becomes a boring piece of sh!t from all the nerfings, so maybe we'll get our chance to make somehting out of it before the end.
I would challenge you to come up with a rax, and prove me that it is so uber, but since you would be beaten and on the ground in about 30 seconds, i rather not do it. Why are you so obsessed with other cruisers? Other cruisers do not pose a threat to the rax, because they are unbalanced, extremely weak compared to the rest of EVE. Try comparing the rax to an assault frig (or two for that matter) or a HAC, maybe a BS. Those are that you face in your thorax, not Moas and Ruptures, because noone uses Moas and Ruptures. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE BIG STEAMING PILE OF SH!T. Again, as a RAX user, i repeat. Hear that? I REPEAT, as i already said it once. YES. THE RAX IS UBER. How so? All other TL1 cruisers are utterly useless for PvP. Only the rax has a chance ATM. Now if you think, that TL1 cruisers have no place in PvP, then use that as an argument, but do not compare the rax to them again, as, and i say it again, they are clearly inferior to the rax and noone really questioned that. What people question tho is whether the rax is right the way it is, or is it TOO powerful compared to the other ships in EVE? Compared how TL1 cruisers should be?
Please do not ask. It would be one more pointless question to ask. Answer my question about where the TL1 cruisers should be in EVE please. Then tell me which one is at the right place. The Moa (or the Rupture, or Omen) or the Thorax? - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[958]
Nowhere. As i said, the thorax is just there, where all other cruisers should be on the power scale.
Other ships are clearly unbalanced. Drone carriers should have double or tripe of the bay size they do have now, so they can have spare drones with them as well. If you reduce the 'rax bay to 100, it will solve nothing. Thoraxes will only be able to go up against groups about half the size they go now, weakening them significantly, but since thoraxes rarely fly alone, they'll still take the kills. So what? Take the easy way, and create a half solution, that solves nothing at the end?
The problem is, that to be of any use, you need the 1600 plates, but if you fit those, you do not have the powergrid to do anything else. The thorax is the exception here. So instead of the plates, maybe they should have increased (doubled maybe) the HP of all cruisers, so that when fitting smaller plates, their survivalability still stays somewhere on the positive side of the scale.
See.. The problem is, that as Assault Frigs made frigates obsolete, so did HACs with cruisers. a) A cruiser can't deal enough damage to kill a HAC, damn.. not even to kill an AF, or if it could deal enough damage, it sure as hell do not live long enough to deal that damage. b) Intys are just too fast to be fought effectively from a cruiser. c) Battleships outclass cruisers in both firepower and armor. I have to ask your question then: why would i fly a cruiser? What should be it's role? Shouldn't it have at least a chance against HACs? Shouldnt it be able to blast away any frig class ship if fitted with small guns and appropriate tracking / slowing equipment? Shouldnt it be able to stand long enough to be more than just 'splash.. oh my.. was that a cruiser?' for a BS pilot? I think it should. Now apart from the rax, no other cruiser qualifies with a 'because it has a chance' answer to the question i asked. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[959] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:47:22
Just because you are seemingly obsessed with numbers. Short range is anything below 40km for me. between 40 and 80 km, it is medium range, and outside 80km, it is long range.
To answer your question. Because in an armageddon, i can have 10 times the armor, 5 times the hitting power just from the guns, and 2 more heavy drones out. Is that an answer good enough for you? I wouldnt fly any other TL1 cruiser though, as they are not worth flying. If you want to achieve that with the rax, then go ahead. You'll be first to leave when EVE becomes a boring piece of sh!t from all the nerfings, so maybe we'll get our chance to make somehting out of it before the end.
I would challenge you to come up with a rax, and prove me that it is so uber, but since you would be beaten and on the ground in about 30 seconds, i rather not do it. Why are you so obsessed with other cruisers? Other cruisers do not pose a threat to the rax, because they are unbalanced, extremely weak compared to the rest of EVE. Try comparing the rax to an assault frig (or two for that matter) or a HAC, maybe a BS. Those are that you face in your thorax, not Moas and Ruptures, because noone uses Moas and Ruptures. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE BIG STEAMING PILE OF SH!T. Again, as a RAX user, i repeat. Hear that? I REPEAT, as i already said it once. YES. THE RAX IS UBER. How so? All other TL1 cruisers are utterly useless for PvP. Only the rax has a chance ATM. Now if you think, that TL1 cruisers have no place in PvP, then use that as an argument, but do not compare the rax to them again, as, and i say it again, they are clearly inferior to the rax and noone really questioned that. What people question tho is whether the rax is right the way it is, or is it TOO powerful compared to the other ships in EVE? Compared how TL1 cruisers should be?
Please do not ask. It would be one more pointless question to ask. Answer my question about where the TL1 cruisers should be in EVE please. Then tell me which one is at the right place. The Moa (or the Rupture, or Omen) or the Thorax? My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[960]
Nowhere. As i said, the thorax is just there, where all other cruisers should be on the power scale.
Other ships are clearly unbalanced. Drone carriers should have double or tripe of the bay size they do have now, so they can have spare drones with them as well. If you reduce the 'rax bay to 100, it will solve nothing. Thoraxes will only be able to go up against groups about half the size they go now, weakening them significantly, but since thoraxes rarely fly alone, they'll still take the kills. So what? Take the easy way, and create a half solution, that solves nothing at the end?
The problem is, that to be of any use, you need the 1600 plates, but if you fit those, you do not have the powergrid to do anything else. The thorax is the exception here. So instead of the plates, maybe they should have increased (doubled maybe) the HP of all cruisers, so that when fitting smaller plates, their survivalability still stays somewhere on the positive side of the scale.
See.. The problem is, that as Assault Frigs made frigates obsolete, so did HACs with cruisers. a) A cruiser can't deal enough damage to kill a HAC, damn.. not even to kill an AF, or if it could deal enough damage, it sure as hell do not live long enough to deal that damage. b) Intys are just too fast to be fought effectively from a cruiser. c) Battleships outclass cruisers in both firepower and armor. I have to ask your question then: why would i fly a cruiser? What should be it's role? Shouldn't it have at least a chance against HACs? Shouldnt it be able to blast away any frig class ship if fitted with small guns and appropriate tracking / slowing equipment? Shouldnt it be able to stand long enough to be more than just 'splash.. oh my.. was that a cruiser?' for a BS pilot? I think it should. Now apart from the rax, no other cruiser qualifies with a 'because it has a chance' answer to the question i asked. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[961] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:47:22
Just because you are seemingly obsessed with numbers. Short range is anything below 40km for me. between 40 and 80 km, it is medium range, and outside 80km, it is long range.
To answer your question. Because in an armageddon, i can have 10 times the armor, 5 times the hitting power just from the guns, and 2 more heavy drones out. Is that an answer good enough for you? I wouldnt fly any other TL1 cruiser though, as they are not worth flying. If you want to achieve that with the rax, then go ahead. You'll be first to leave when EVE becomes a boring piece of sh!t from all the nerfings, so maybe we'll get our chance to make somehting out of it before the end.
I would challenge you to come up with a rax, and prove me that it is so uber, but since you would be beaten and on the ground in about 30 seconds, i rather not do it. Why are you so obsessed with other cruisers? Other cruisers do not pose a threat to the rax, because they are unbalanced, extremely weak compared to the rest of EVE. Try comparing the rax to an assault frig (or two for that matter) or a HAC, maybe a BS. Those are that you face in your thorax, not Moas and Ruptures, because noone uses Moas and Ruptures. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE BIG STEAMING PILE OF SH!T. Again, as a RAX user, i repeat. Hear that? I REPEAT, as i already said it once. YES. THE RAX IS UBER. How so? All other TL1 cruisers are utterly useless for PvP. Only the rax has a chance ATM. Now if you think, that TL1 cruisers have no place in PvP, then use that as an argument, but do not compare the rax to them again, as, and i say it again, they are clearly inferior to the rax and noone really questioned that. What people question tho is whether the rax is right the way it is, or is it TOO powerful compared to the other ships in EVE? Compared how TL1 cruisers should be?
Please do not ask. It would be one more pointless question to ask. Answer my question about where the TL1 cruisers should be in EVE please. Then tell me which one is at the right place. The Moa (or the Rupture, or Omen) or the Thorax? My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:07:00 -
[962] I have been waiting for someone to calculate all the pertinent numbers for a plated cruiser comparison. When none was forthcoming I decided that there was nothing to be done but do it myself. The results themselves are not surprising, however the sheer % difference between ships was. ItÆs is crystal clear now why everyone flies the Rax over anything else. A couple of important points. All ships are based on the idea that they will mount thier races best long range small weapon for frig killing/best small missile and a 1600plate. This means all guns/Launchers are T2 versions. Since there are so many gunnery skills I have calculated DPS on base values as listed in the Item Database of Eve-O. Hence, Gun/Missile DPS values will be slightly below actual "live" performance. All drone damage is based on skilling Heavy Drones to 4. As this is the only common skill for Drone damage it was easy to incorporate. Therefore drone damage dps should be very, very close to actual use. I have used the top 2 cruisers from each race except the Caracal, as plates are fairly useless. I have included the Moa assuming that it will fit a 1600mm plate, even tho this is unlikely and perhaps impossible given its grid. As I do not fly Caldari cruisers I can't say, but wanted to at least include the Moa for comparison's sake. I hope beyond hope that CCP will adjust Shield Extenders similarly to plates to help even the playing field. Armor with Plate No suprises here, maller has 150 more armor than anything else. Interestingly enough, the close range ship the Stabber actually has 250 less armor than the other close range ship the Rax. The Thorax is 2nd only to the super defensive Maller.
Weapon Points and DPS Interesting results here. While the Matari have extra high weapon slots (6 vs 5 for other races) thier overall dps is lower with weapons. I would assume this is for the supposed greater flexibility that missiles grant. They have greater volley damage with projectiles with slightly lower DPS on the turrets as shown by comparison of the Moa. The Rax ties for first with the Maller if it uses small beam II's, but comes in a close 3rd if it uses it's racial T2 150's.
Dronebay Again no surpises other than sheer percentage. The Vexxor should have twice the dronebay as it needs it to make up the DPS on it's lack of turrets. But the Rax not only has more, it as over three times more than the Rupture, and Eight times more than the Omen. We start to see a discrepency......
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:07:00 -
[963] I have been waiting for someone to calculate all the pertinent numbers for a plated cruiser comparison. When none was forthcoming I decided that there was nothing to be done but do it myself. The results themselves are not surprising, however the sheer % difference between ships was. ItÆs is crystal clear now why everyone flies the Rax over anything else. A couple of important points. All ships are based on the idea that they will mount thier races best long range small weapon for frig killing/best small missile and a 1600plate. This means all guns/Launchers are T2 versions. Since there are so many gunnery skills I have calculated DPS on base values as listed in the Item Database of Eve-O. Hence, Gun/Missile DPS values will be slightly below actual "live" performance. All drone damage is based on skilling Heavy Drones to 4. As this is the only common skill for Drone damage it was easy to incorporate. Therefore drone damage dps should be very, very close to actual use. I have used the top 2 cruisers from each race except the Caracal, as plates are fairly useless. I have included the Moa assuming that it will fit a 1600mm plate, even tho this is unlikely and perhaps impossible given its grid. As I do not fly Caldari cruisers I can't say, but wanted to at least include the Moa for comparison's sake. I hope beyond hope that CCP will adjust Shield Extenders similarly to plates to help even the playing field. Armor with Plate No suprises here, maller has 150 more armor than anything else. Interestingly enough, the close range ship the Stabber actually has 250 less armor than the other close range ship the Rax. The Thorax is 2nd only to the super defensive Maller.
Weapon Points and DPS Interesting results here. While the Matari have extra high weapon slots (6 vs 5 for other races) thier overall dps is lower with weapons. I would assume this is for the supposed greater flexibility that missiles grant. They have greater volley damage with projectiles with slightly lower DPS on the turrets as shown by comparison of the Moa. The Rax ties for first with the Maller if it uses small beam II's, but comes in a close 3rd if it uses it's racial T2 150's.
Dronebay Again no surpises other than sheer percentage. The Vexxor should have twice the dronebay as it needs it to make up the DPS on it's lack of turrets. But the Rax not only has more, it as over three times more than the Rupture, and Eight times more than the Omen. We start to see a discrepency......
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:07:00 -
[964] I have been waiting for someone to calculate all the pertinent numbers for a plated cruiser comparison. When none was forthcoming I decided that there was nothing to be done but do it myself. The results themselves are not surprising, however the sheer % difference between ships was. ItÆs is crystal clear now why everyone flies the Rax over anything else. A couple of important points. All ships are based on the idea that they will mount thier races best long range small weapon for frig killing/best small missile and a 1600plate. This means all guns/Launchers are T2 versions. Since there are so many gunnery skills I have calculated DPS on base values as listed in the Item Database of Eve-O. Hence, Gun/Missile DPS values will be slightly below actual "live" performance. All drone damage is based on skilling Heavy Drones to 4. As this is the only common skill for Drone damage it was easy to incorporate. Therefore drone damage dps should be very, very close to actual use. I have used the top 2 cruisers from each race except the Caracal, as plates are fairly useless. I have included the Moa assuming that it will fit a 1600mm plate, even tho this is unlikely and perhaps impossible given its grid. As I do not fly Caldari cruisers I can't say, but wanted to at least include the Moa for comparison's sake. I hope beyond hope that CCP will adjust Shield Extenders similarly to plates to help even the playing field. Armor with Plate No suprises here, maller has 150 more armor than anything else. Interestingly enough, the close range ship the Stabber actually has 250 less armor than the other close range ship the Rax. The Thorax is 2nd only to the super defensive Maller.
Weapon Points and DPS Interesting results here. While the Matari have extra high weapon slots (6 vs 5 for other races) thier overall dps is lower with weapons. I would assume this is for the supposed greater flexibility that missiles grant. They have greater volley damage with projectiles with slightly lower DPS on the turrets as shown by comparison of the Moa. The Rax ties for first with the Maller if it uses small beam II's, but comes in a close 3rd if it uses it's racial T2 150's.
Dronebay Again no surpises other than sheer percentage. The Vexxor should have twice the dronebay as it needs it to make up the DPS on it's lack of turrets. But the Rax not only has more, it as over three times more than the Rupture, and Eight times more than the Omen. We start to see a discrepency......
|
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[965] Drone DPS With Heavy Drones 4 (easy to achieve) Drone DPS is as follows; Heavy - 21.12 DPS, Medium - 8.64 DPS, Light - 3.84 DPS. All numbers are rounded for ease of use. The Vexxor is high on the list since it was low on the list for turrets, and this seems to follow for all other ships. The Thorax however is an aberration as it tops both.
Total DPS This is where it just gets scary. A drone ship DPS should be slightly higher than a turret ship, as drones take time to reach target, can be destroyed, are sometimes stupid. But here it is clearly evidenced how overpowering the DPS is on a ship that has the highest Turret DPS, Drone DPS, while sporting the 2nd most armor in it's class.
Thats right - The Thorax does twice the DPS of a Rupture, three times that of Moa, and FOURof a Maller. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Total DPS over a 60 second Interval A lot of the Rax supporters say that the time it takes for drones to travel to a target 15km away takes away from the overall damage. So I have calculated a scenario in which the Thorax starts a fight at 15km from it's target and releases drones. Heavy drones have an optimal of 1000km +4000km falloff leaving them 10km of distance to travel while inflicting zero damage. Heavy drones traveling 1050m/s cross this distance in 10 seconds. In this 15km scenario the 8 heavy drones inflict damage for 50sec (60sec-10sec for travel). The total damage in a 60 second instance for each ships turrets plus drones is as follows:
Again we see clearly why the Thorax is overpowered. An average three times the damage output over 60 seconds starting at 15km over any other cruiser. This is while having the second best armor in it's class. Shooting down the Rax's drones is not an option, as the Heavy drones have a combined armor total of 2400hp. The Thorax's drones are the equivalent of an extra cruisers worth of armor and firepower. The solution is clear. Reduce the Thorax Dronebay to 100. This still leaves the Thorax stronger (considerably) than other cruisers, but at least it's a bit closer. The other solution is to limit all cruiser's dronebays to medium drones only. This would reduce the total damage potential of the Thorax, but other cruisers as well. Rather than place an arbitrary restriction on all cruisers I would rather adjust just one. All cruisers are not totally "teh suck" - but they are when compared to the Thorax. After the Rax's dronebay is adjusted here is what can be done to help all cruisers. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[966] OMG help for cruisers! Some of the setups above were not reasonable because the comparison needed an "apples to apples" base from which to compare. The Moa and Stabber come mind. However, since these are by far the currently most accepted setups for most ships we can see we can make some suggestions based on these setups.
More survivability is critical. With an 800mm plate cruisers + the new armor base cruisers would reach where there are curretly with a 1600mm plate. This is about right.
These changes are coming in Mk2. Thank you CCP. It's needed. Please don't forget Battlecruisers though. They are just a bit better than Cruisers, but are more like battleships in handling/sig radius. Mk2 Battlecruisers should be where T1 Cruisers are now.
With the MK2 changes, Medium Turrets and Missiles need to be adjusted so they can hit medium targets better than any other weapons, including small T2. The smallest Medium weapons should have similar tracking and sig rad of the largest T2 small weapons. This would encourage the use of Medium Weapons on Medium (Cruiser) vessels. The fact that small T2 weapons have better damage and tracking than the medium weapons meant to go on a cruiser is utterly retarded. A Medium Beam II (small laser) should never be doing better more consistant damage on cruisers and BS than a Heavy Pulse I(or II). Currently this is not so. The greater fitting and firing requirements should be rewarded by better damage. Cruisers are made for cruiser weapons. T2 smalls should not be the best for all occasions.
Think about it. All weapons have a lower limit to sig radius at which point the guns hit extremely poor. They should also have an upper limit at which point they cease to gain any advantage. T2 small weapons that wreck and hit for "perfect" every time when placed on a cruiser will beat any cruiser weapon that hits for "average" becuase of sig rad. Additionally these small weapons hit frigates 100x better than Medium weapons. Medium weapons on Medium ships for Medium Targets. This will provide more incentive to put medium weaps on cruisers, as well as give T2 (and T1) destroyers more of a niche. Right now, destroyers are redundant because Cruisers with Small Weaps fill the anti-frigate role as well as the anti-cruiser role adequetly with small T2 weapons. If Cruisers equipped Medium Weaps (and used thier bonuses as well) then destroyers would have a place by destroying friggies Well there you go folks. The reasons why the Rax needs adjustment as well as cruiser fixes. Your thoughts are appreciated, however, more substantial numerical analysis to refute the ones I have put forward will be taken more seriously. If you just post your biased opinion (omg i luv mah rax, leave it alone or go trane 4 an uber rax) without any backing and you will be ignored. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[967] Drone DPS With Heavy Drones 4 (easy to achieve) Drone DPS is as follows; Heavy - 21.12 DPS, Medium - 8.64 DPS, Light - 3.84 DPS. All numbers are rounded for ease of use. The Vexxor is high on the list since it was low on the list for turrets, and this seems to follow for all other ships. The Thorax however is an aberration as it tops both.
Total DPS This is where it just gets scary. A drone ship DPS should be slightly higher than a turret ship, as drones take time to reach target, can be destroyed, are sometimes stupid. But here it is clearly evidenced how overpowering the DPS is on a ship that has the highest Turret DPS, Drone DPS, while sporting the 2nd most armor in it's class.
Thats right - The Thorax does twice the DPS of a Rupture, three times that of Moa, and FOURof a Maller. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Total DPS over a 60 second Interval A lot of the Rax supporters say that the time it takes for drones to travel to a target 15km away takes away from the overall damage. So I have calculated a scenario in which the Thorax starts a fight at 15km from it's target and releases drones. Heavy drones have an optimal of 1000km +4000km falloff leaving them 10km of distance to travel while inflicting zero damage. Heavy drones traveling 1050m/s cross this distance in 10 seconds. In this 15km scenario the 8 heavy drones inflict damage for 50sec (60sec-10sec for travel). The total damage in a 60 second instance for each ships turrets plus drones is as follows:
Again we see clearly why the Thorax is overpowered. An average three times the damage output over 60 seconds starting at 15km over any other cruiser. This is while having the second best armor in it's class. Shooting down the Rax's drones is not an option, as the Heavy drones have a combined armor total of 2400hp. The Thorax's drones are the equivalent of an extra cruisers worth of armor and firepower. The solution is clear. Reduce the Thorax Dronebay to 100. This still leaves the Thorax stronger (considerably) than other cruisers, but at least it's a bit closer. The other solution is to limit all cruiser's dronebays to medium drones only. This would reduce the total damage potential of the Thorax, but other cruisers as well. Rather than place an arbitrary restriction on all cruisers I would rather adjust just one. All cruisers are not totally "teh suck" - but they are when compared to the Thorax. After the Rax's dronebay is adjusted here is what can be done to help all cruisers. |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[968] OMG help for cruisers! Some of the setups above were not reasonable because the comparison needed an "apples to apples" base from which to compare. The Moa and Stabber come mind. However, since these are by far the currently most accepted setups for most ships we can see we can make some suggestions based on these setups.
More survivability is critical. With an 800mm plate cruisers + the new armor base cruisers would reach where there are curretly with a 1600mm plate. This is about right.
These changes are coming in Mk2. Thank you CCP. It's needed. Please don't forget Battlecruisers though. They are just a bit better than Cruisers, but are more like battleships in handling/sig radius. Mk2 Battlecruisers should be where T1 Cruisers are now.
With the MK2 changes, Medium Turrets and Missiles need to be adjusted so they can hit medium targets better than any other weapons, including small T2. The smallest Medium weapons should have similar tracking and sig rad of the largest T2 small weapons. This would encourage the use of Medium Weapons on Medium (Cruiser) vessels. The fact that small T2 weapons have better damage and tracking than the medium weapons meant to go on a cruiser is utterly retarded. A Medium Beam II (small laser) should never be doing better more consistant damage on cruisers and BS than a Heavy Pulse I(or II). Currently this is not so. The greater fitting and firing requirements should be rewarded by better damage. Cruisers are made for cruiser weapons. T2 smalls should not be the best for all occasions.
Think about it. All weapons have a lower limit to sig radius at which point the guns hit extremely poor. They should also have an upper limit at which point they cease to gain any advantage. T2 small weapons that wreck and hit for "perfect" every time when placed on a cruiser will beat any cruiser weapon that hits for "average" becuase of sig rad. Additionally these small weapons hit frigates 100x better than Medium weapons. Medium weapons on Medium ships for Medium Targets. This will provide more incentive to put medium weaps on cruisers, as well as give T2 (and T1) destroyers more of a niche. Right now, destroyers are redundant because Cruisers with Small Weaps fill the anti-frigate role as well as the anti-cruiser role adequetly with small T2 weapons. If Cruisers equipped Medium Weaps (and used thier bonuses as well) then destroyers would have a place by destroying friggies Well there you go folks. The reasons why the Rax needs adjustment as well as cruiser fixes. Your thoughts are appreciated, however, more substantial numerical analysis to refute the ones I have put forward will be taken more seriously. If you just post your biased opinion (omg i luv mah rax, leave it alone or go trane 4 an uber rax) without any backing and you will be ignored. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[969] Drone DPS With Heavy Drones 4 (easy to achieve) Drone DPS is as follows; Heavy - 21.12 DPS, Medium - 8.64 DPS, Light - 3.84 DPS. All numbers are rounded for ease of use. The Vexxor is high on the list since it was low on the list for turrets, and this seems to follow for all other ships. The Thorax however is an aberration as it tops both.
Total DPS This is where it just gets scary. A drone ship DPS should be slightly higher than a turret ship, as drones take time to reach target, can be destroyed, are sometimes stupid. But here it is clearly evidenced how overpowering the DPS is on a ship that has the highest Turret DPS, Drone DPS, while sporting the 2nd most armor in it's class.
Thats right - The Thorax does twice the DPS of a Rupture, three times that of Moa, and FOURof a Maller. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Total DPS over a 60 second Interval A lot of the Rax supporters say that the time it takes for drones to travel to a target 15km away takes away from the overall damage. So I have calculated a scenario in which the Thorax starts a fight at 15km from it's target and releases drones. Heavy drones have an optimal of 1000km +4000km falloff leaving them 10km of distance to travel while inflicting zero damage. Heavy drones traveling 1050m/s cross this distance in 10 seconds. In this 15km scenario the 8 heavy drones inflict damage for 50sec (60sec-10sec for travel). The total damage in a 60 second instance for each ships turrets plus drones is as follows:
Again we see clearly why the Thorax is overpowered. An average three times the damage output over 60 seconds starting at 15km over any other cruiser. This is while having the second best armor in it's class. Shooting down the Rax's drones is not an option, as the Heavy drones have a combined armor total of 2400hp. The Thorax's drones are the equivalent of an extra cruisers worth of armor and firepower. The solution is clear. Reduce the Thorax Dronebay to 100. This still leaves the Thorax stronger (considerably) than other cruisers, but at least it's a bit closer. The other solution is to limit all cruiser's dronebays to medium drones only. This would reduce the total damage potential of the Thorax, but other cruisers as well. Rather than place an arbitrary restriction on all cruisers I would rather adjust just one. All cruisers are not totally "teh suck" - but they are when compared to the Thorax. After the Rax's dronebay is adjusted here is what can be done to help all cruisers. |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[970] OMG help for cruisers! Some of the setups above were not reasonable because the comparison needed an "apples to apples" base from which to compare. The Moa and Stabber come mind. However, since these are by far the currently most accepted setups for most ships we can see we can make some suggestions based on these setups.
More survivability is critical. With an 800mm plate cruisers + the new armor base cruisers would reach where there are curretly with a 1600mm plate. This is about right.
These changes are coming in Mk2. Thank you CCP. It's needed. Please don't forget Battlecruisers though. They are just a bit better than Cruisers, but are more like battleships in handling/sig radius. Mk2 Battlecruisers should be where T1 Cruisers are now.
With the MK2 changes, Medium Turrets and Missiles need to be adjusted so they can hit medium targets better than any other weapons, including small T2. The smallest Medium weapons should have similar tracking and sig rad of the largest T2 small weapons. This would encourage the use of Medium Weapons on Medium (Cruiser) vessels. The fact that small T2 weapons have better damage and tracking than the medium weapons meant to go on a cruiser is utterly retarded. A Medium Beam II (small laser) should never be doing better more consistant damage on cruisers and BS than a Heavy Pulse I(or II). Currently this is not so. The greater fitting and firing requirements should be rewarded by better damage. Cruisers are made for cruiser weapons. T2 smalls should not be the best for all occasions.
Think about it. All weapons have a lower limit to sig radius at which point the guns hit extremely poor. They should also have an upper limit at which point they cease to gain any advantage. T2 small weapons that wreck and hit for "perfect" every time when placed on a cruiser will beat any cruiser weapon that hits for "average" becuase of sig rad. Additionally these small weapons hit frigates 100x better than Medium weapons. Medium weapons on Medium ships for Medium Targets. This will provide more incentive to put medium weaps on cruisers, as well as give T2 (and T1) destroyers more of a niche. Right now, destroyers are redundant because Cruisers with Small Weaps fill the anti-frigate role as well as the anti-cruiser role adequetly with small T2 weapons. If Cruisers equipped Medium Weaps (and used thier bonuses as well) then destroyers would have a place by destroying friggies Well there you go folks. The reasons why the Rax needs adjustment as well as cruiser fixes. Your thoughts are appreciated, however, more substantial numerical analysis to refute the ones I have put forward will be taken more seriously. If you just post your biased opinion (omg i luv mah rax, leave it alone or go trane 4 an uber rax) without any backing and you will be ignored. Nyxus
|
Ithildin |
Posted - 2005.09.03 21:22:00 -
[971] Neat comparison, Nyxus, but I have a request for you. Make a similar comparison making two vital assumptions: 1. Oversized plates will not remain viable for long due to their unintended use and that they are removing medium turrets from game (save for HACs, who can afford the lack of plates in order to get more firepower) 2. Thorax dronebay is axed, but without increasing any fitting numbers. Granted that you'll have to make some realistic setups to complete this, but a few general guidelines can be used such as a rail-Thorax using 200mm Rails at most or a blaster-Thorax using Electron blaster at most. -- Ligh weight. Some people fly Thorax or Armageddon to compensate what their body lack. I fly Dominix. |
 Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.09.03 21:22:00 -
[972] Neat comparison, Nyxus, but I have a request for you. Make a similar comparison making two vital assumptions: 1. Oversized plates will not remain viable for long due to their unintended use and that they are removing medium turrets from game (save for HACs, who can afford the lack of plates in order to get more firepower) 2. Thorax dronebay is axed, but without increasing any fitting numbers. Granted that you'll have to make some realistic setups to complete this, but a few general guidelines can be used such as a rail-Thorax using 200mm Rails at most or a blaster-Thorax using Electron blaster at most. - EVE is sick. |
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.09.03 21:22:00 -
[973] Neat comparison, Nyxus, but I have a request for you. Make a similar comparison making two vital assumptions: 1. Oversized plates will not remain viable for long due to their unintended use and that they are removing medium turrets from game (save for HACs, who can afford the lack of plates in order to get more firepower) 2. Thorax dronebay is axed, but without increasing any fitting numbers. Granted that you'll have to make some realistic setups to complete this, but a few general guidelines can be used such as a rail-Thorax using 200mm Rails at most or a blaster-Thorax using Electron blaster at most. - EVE is sick. |
DigitalCommunist |
Posted - 2005.09.03 21:52:00 -
[974] 18 pages about one single number in a database. Wow. Wish that many people cared about removing instas :\ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. |
DigitalCommunist Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.03 21:52:00 -
[975] 18 pages about one single number in a database. Wow. Wish that many people cared about removing instas :\ Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
DigitalCommunist Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.03 21:52:00 -
[976] 18 pages about one single number in a database. Wow. Wish that many people cared about removing instas :\ Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Ithildin |
Posted - 2005.09.03 22:05:00 -
[977]
Very, very, good point. I think it also has to do with the extremely sexy look of the Thorax. People feel good flying it, contrary to (for example) Rupture, Maller, or Dominix. And I do care about (for) removing instas. Care to start a thred about it? Remove the need for instas, granting a 5km warp-in. Also, remove aggression timers for stargates and do something about insta-docks. Possibly the bottlenecks will have to be moved slightly further out from secure space so that one can pursue people who jump through and so on... -- Ligh weight. Some people fly Thorax or Armageddon to compensate what their body lack. I fly Dominix. |
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.09.03 22:05:00 -
[978]
Very, very, good point. I think it also has to do with the extremely sexy look of the Thorax. People feel good flying it, contrary to (for example) Rupture, Maller, or Dominix. And I do care about (for) removing instas. Care to start a thred about it? Remove the need for instas, granting a 5km warp-in. Also, remove aggression timers for stargates and do something about insta-docks. Possibly the bottlenecks will have to be moved slightly further out from secure space so that one can pursue people who jump through and so on... - EVE is sick. |
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.09.03 22:05:00 -
[979]
Very, very, good point. I think it also has to do with the extremely sexy look of the Thorax. People feel good flying it, contrary to (for example) Rupture, Maller, or Dominix. And I do care about (for) removing instas. Care to start a thred about it? Remove the need for instas, granting a 5km warp-in. Also, remove aggression timers for stargates and do something about insta-docks. Possibly the bottlenecks will have to be moved slightly further out from secure space so that one can pursue people who jump through and so on... - EVE is sick. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.09.03 22:36:00 -
[980]
We care (C) |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.09.03 22:36:00 -
[981]
We care (C) |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.09.03 22:36:00 -
[982]
We care (C) |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.03 23:51:00 -
[983] Just a few questions... How long would it take a person to train up to be able to use a rax that does the 169 dps with its drones .. can fit 1600 plates, and use t2 weapons? as the biggest argument is that, a new players can jump into a rax and do all this.. Plus why is it that people like to ignore the whole point that a rax without battleship plate isn't the uber ship they think it is? Once the oversized plate issue is sorted out and (hopefully) becomes a thing of the past, the rax will revert back to a mining role due to being castrated by people who want eve to be a game fought with smacktalk in shuttles. oh and nerf the maller... as its going to be the new overpowered cruiser.. if the rax gets ruined. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.03 23:51:00 -
[984] Just a few questions... How long would it take a person to train up to be able to use a rax that does the 169 dps with its drones .. can fit 1600 plates, and use t2 weapons? as the biggest argument is that, a new players can jump into a rax and do all this.. Plus why is it that people like to ignore the whole point that a rax without battleship plate isn't the uber ship they think it is? Once the oversized plate issue is sorted out and (hopefully) becomes a thing of the past, the rax will revert back to a mining role due to being castrated by people who want eve to be a game fought with smacktalk in shuttles. oh and nerf the maller... as its going to be the new overpowered cruiser.. if the rax gets ruined. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.03 23:51:00 -
[985] Just a few questions... How long would it take a person to train up to be able to use a rax that does the 169 dps with its drones .. can fit 1600 plates, and use t2 weapons? as the biggest argument is that, a new players can jump into a rax and do all this.. Plus why is it that people like to ignore the whole point that a rax without battleship plate isn't the uber ship they think it is? Once the oversized plate issue is sorted out and (hopefully) becomes a thing of the past, the rax will revert back to a mining role due to being castrated by people who want eve to be a game fought with smacktalk in shuttles. oh and nerf the maller... as its going to be the new overpowered cruiser.. if the rax gets ruined. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:25:00 -
[986] Ithildin - I have to agree with your line of thought. I am interested in the same numbers. I will start the process of crunching in the next couple of days. I will use my skills for base grid/cpu etc but if people here know decent turrets to use for each ship I would appreciate the input. I will probably use base values for turrets again so as to have an apples to apples comparison while using my base skills as a frame of reference for each ship. Ship fitter 4tw! I hope some sort of drawback is provided for oversized plates soon. Sig Rad hopefully as I am sick of seeing every inty sport a 400mm plate.
I would guess about a month minimum, maybe 5 weeks. You need Cruiser 4, T2 Beams or Rails, and Heavy Drones 4. A few other engineering skills for cap and such, although its not very hard to fit the small guns and plate.
Because the Rax does TWICE the damage of the Rupture while having the SAME armor? Why do you continue to focus on plates when it's the damage output of the drones that are unbalanced? Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:25:00 -
[987] Ithildin - I have to agree with your line of thought. I am interested in the same numbers. I will start the process of crunching in the next couple of days. I will use my skills for base grid/cpu etc but if people here know decent turrets to use for each ship I would appreciate the input. I will probably use base values for turrets again so as to have an apples to apples comparison while using my base skills as a frame of reference for each ship. Ship fitter 4tw! I hope some sort of drawback is provided for oversized plates soon. Sig Rad hopefully as I am sick of seeing every inty sport a 400mm plate.
I would guess about a month minimum, maybe 5 weeks. You need Cruiser 4, T2 Beams or Rails, and Heavy Drones 4. A few other engineering skills for cap and such, although its not very hard to fit the small guns and plate.
Because the Rax does TWICE the damage of the Rupture while having the SAME armor? Why do you continue to focus on plates when it's the damage output of the drones that are unbalanced? Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:25:00 -
[988] Ithildin - I have to agree with your line of thought. I am interested in the same numbers. I will start the process of crunching in the next couple of days. I will use my skills for base grid/cpu etc but if people here know decent turrets to use for each ship I would appreciate the input. I will probably use base values for turrets again so as to have an apples to apples comparison while using my base skills as a frame of reference for each ship. Ship fitter 4tw! I hope some sort of drawback is provided for oversized plates soon. Sig Rad hopefully as I am sick of seeing every inty sport a 400mm plate.
I would guess about a month minimum, maybe 5 weeks. You need Cruiser 4, T2 Beams or Rails, and Heavy Drones 4. A few other engineering skills for cap and such, although its not very hard to fit the small guns and plate.
Because the Rax does TWICE the damage of the Rupture while having the SAME armor? Why do you continue to focus on plates when it's the damage output of the drones that are unbalanced? Nyxus
|
Kaeten |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:28:00 -
[989] Edited by: Kaeten on 04/09/2005 01:29:27 ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones... the plate issue has nothing to do wit hthis as all cruisers can fit the same. One thing that is unfair is that the maller gets an extra high and low slot over the thorax, is that fair or does the drone bay balance it out, people forget to bring every advantage in. |
 Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:28:00 -
[990] Edited by: Kaeten on 04/09/2005 01:29:27 ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones... the plate issue has nothing to do wit hthis as all cruisers can fit the same. One thing that is unfair is that the maller gets an extra high and low slot over the thorax, is that fair or does the drone bay balance it out, people forget to bring every advantage in. Pwnage PvP Recruitment |
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:28:00 -
[991] Edited by: Kaeten on 04/09/2005 01:29:27 ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones... the plate issue has nothing to do wit hthis as all cruisers can fit the same. One thing that is unfair is that the maller gets an extra high and low slot over the thorax, is that fair or does the drone bay balance it out, people forget to bring every advantage in. Pwnage PvP Recruitment |
akrotor |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:36:00 -
[992] CCP DONT NERF ANYMOORE FECKING THINGS GOD DAMN IT U WHINING FECKING *****ES MAKE ME SICK  |
 akrotor The Black Fleet |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:36:00 -
[993] CCP DONT NERF ANYMOORE FECKING THINGS GOD DAMN IT U WHINING FECKING *****ES MAKE ME SICK |
akrotor The Black Fleet |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:36:00 -
[994] CCP DONT NERF ANYMOORE FECKING THINGS GOD DAMN IT U WHINING FECKING *****ES MAKE ME SICK |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:51:00 -
[995] "ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones..." ffs... like all people in this thread who came up with this bright idea how easy it is to kill that amount of heavy drones, did you actually try it? --;; 8 heavy drones = ~3.5 k of hp time before your own ship goes poof under Thorax' and drones firepower = 50-60 seconds top, unless you're in a Maller tanked up to gills. But hey, Maller has no drone bay so that's kinda moot point. amount of medium drones needed to generate enough damage to kill 8 heavy drones in less than 60 secods, presuming perfect performance with target switching, no delay when switching to another drone etc = 10+ amount of cruisers able to carry 10 medium drones that ain't Thorax: 2 ... Arbitrator and Vexor. ... if this thread was a horse, it'd be glue by now >.<;;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:51:00 -
[996] "ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones..." ffs... like all people in this thread who came up with this bright idea how easy it is to kill that amount of heavy drones, did you actually try it? --;; 8 heavy drones = ~3.5 k of hp time before your own ship goes poof under Thorax' and drones firepower = 50-60 seconds top, unless you're in a Maller tanked up to gills. But hey, Maller has no drone bay so that's kinda moot point. amount of medium drones needed to generate enough damage to kill 8 heavy drones in less than 60 secods, presuming perfect performance with target switching, no delay when switching to another drone etc = 10+ amount of cruisers able to carry 10 medium drones that ain't Thorax: 2 ... Arbitrator and Vexor. ... if this thread was a horse, it'd be glue by now >.<;;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:51:00 -
[997] "ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones..." ffs... like all people in this thread who came up with this bright idea how easy it is to kill that amount of heavy drones, did you actually try it? --;; 8 heavy drones = ~3.5 k of hp time before your own ship goes poof under Thorax' and drones firepower = 50-60 seconds top, unless you're in a Maller tanked up to gills. But hey, Maller has no drone bay so that's kinda moot point. amount of medium drones needed to generate enough damage to kill 8 heavy drones in less than 60 secods, presuming perfect performance with target switching, no delay when switching to another drone etc = 10+ amount of cruisers able to carry 10 medium drones that ain't Thorax: 2 ... Arbitrator and Vexor. ... if this thread was a horse, it'd be glue by now >.<;;; |
Kaeten |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:54:00 -
[998]Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is |
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:54:00 -
[999]Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is Pwnage PvP Recruitment |
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:54:00 -
[1000]Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is Pwnage PvP Recruitment |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:55:00 -
[1001] "Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is" So how exactly did it went and what ship was it done with..? |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:55:00 -
[1002] "Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is" So how exactly did it went and what ship was it done with..? |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:55:00 -
[1003] "Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is" So how exactly did it went and what ship was it done with..? |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:58:00 -
[1004]
8 Heavy drones have 2400 armor - that is the equivalent to TWO unplated Thorax. Medium drones do......8 DPS. Yeah that will be easy to take out as they circle you at 1000m/s. The Maller has the same number of Turret slots as the Thorax. That last slot you can fit....uhh.....not much. You can't even fit a Nos becuase of the fitting reqs. That last high slot is useless in 90% of the fittings. And don's say a smartbomb, look at the fittings, then go fire one up in empire. Oh yea, they dont work near gates or stations either. The Maller has an extra low slot for defence. The Thorax would still have 100 more dronebay than the Maller. It just doesnt need 200. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:58:00 -
[1005]
8 Heavy drones have 2400 armor - that is the equivalent to TWO unplated Thorax. Medium drones do......8 DPS. Yeah that will be easy to take out as they circle you at 1000m/s. The Maller has the same number of Turret slots as the Thorax. That last slot you can fit....uhh.....not much. You can't even fit a Nos becuase of the fitting reqs. That last high slot is useless in 90% of the fittings. And don's say a smartbomb, look at the fittings, then go fire one up in empire. Oh yea, they dont work near gates or stations either. The Maller has an extra low slot for defence. The Thorax would still have 100 more dronebay than the Maller. It just doesnt need 200. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:58:00 -
[1006]
8 Heavy drones have 2400 armor - that is the equivalent to TWO unplated Thorax. Medium drones do......8 DPS. Yeah that will be easy to take out as they circle you at 1000m/s. The Maller has the same number of Turret slots as the Thorax. That last slot you can fit....uhh.....not much. You can't even fit a Nos becuase of the fitting reqs. That last high slot is useless in 90% of the fittings. And don's say a smartbomb, look at the fittings, then go fire one up in empire. Oh yea, they dont work near gates or stations either. The Maller has an extra low slot for defence. The Thorax would still have 100 more dronebay than the Maller. It just doesnt need 200. Nyxus
|
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.04 03:03:00 -
[1007] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 03:07:24
I am also interested in the number, and even started computing them, but I gave up for a very simple reason. They are nice to have, but most of them do not help to determine if the drone bay is too big or not. [comparison of gank setups (most damaging setups at 20km with highest damaging ammo at that range)] Thorax: 5 * 200mm railguns t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 4 mag stabs t2 & 1 RCU t2 * max gun damage with max skills: 283 dps (plutonium ammo to have similar range, though with 2 tracking comp t2 antimatter would work too. 308 dps with AM). Rupture: 4 * 720mm artillery t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 4 gyro stabs t2 & 1 RCU t2 Note that this setup is easier to fit (cpu wise) and more damaging than a 650mm artillery setup with heavy missiles t2. * max gun damage with max skills: 269 dps (emp ammo). Moa: 4 * 200mm railguns t2 & 2 heavy launcher t2 (they fit both with advanced weapon upgrades 4, i think) 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 & 1 something (how could we ever control this variable) 4 mag stabs t2 Note that this setup is more damaging than a 250mm railgun setup without heavy missiles t2, or a 250mm railgun setup with a RCU instead of one mag stab t2. * max gun damage with max skills: 198 dps (antimatter ammo). * max missile damage with max skills: 2 (number of launchers) * 150 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (heavies skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.10 (warhead upgrades) / (14.4 (base rof) * 0.85 (rapid launch) * 0.9 (missile launcher operation skill)) = 41 dps. Not sure about this, i'm not used to the new missiles skills but i think that i got it right. * sum: 239 dps. Maller: (a) 5 * heavy beams t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 (actually, it's a tad to short on cpu with maxed skills, but who cares) 4 * heat sink t2 & 2 * RCU t2 * damage with max skills: 302 dps (multifreq). (b) 5 * medium focused beams t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 6 * heat sink t2 * damage with max skills: 309 dps (multifreq, slightly outranged by other guns in the comparison though). (c)There is a mix of beams that does slightly more damage, 4 heavy & 1 med focused with 5 damage mods. Damage < 330 dps though. And, erm, we know about how good amarr ships are at stacking damage mods, don't we... As was already known before the calculations, this doesn't help in telling how much drone bay should have the thorax :/
I have gallente cruiser 3, heavy drones 2 and do not use t2 guns on my thorax, but each his own preference. t2 guns are not a must have, neither are the cruiser bonus. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 03:03:00 -
[1008] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 03:29:38
I am also interested in the numbers, and even started computing them, but I gave up for a very simple reason. They are nice to have, but most of them do not help to determine if the drone bay is too big or not. [comparison of gank setups (most damaging setups at 20km with highest damaging ammo at that range)] Thorax: 5 * 200mm railguns t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 4 mag stabs t2 & 1 RCU t2 * max gun damage with max skills: 283 dps (plutonium to have similar range, though with 2 tracking comp t2 antimatter would work too. 308 dps with AM). Rupture: 4 * 720mm artillery t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 4 gyro stabs t2 & 1 RCU t2 Note that this setup is easier to fit (cpu wise) and more damaging than a 650mm artillery setup with heavy missiles t2. * max gun damage with max skills: 269 dps (emp). Moa: 4 * 200mm railguns t2 & 2 heavy launcher t2 (they fit both with advanced weapon upgrades 4, i think) 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 & 1 something (how could we ever control this variable) 4 mag stabs t2 Note that this setup is more damaging than a 250mm railgun setup without heavy missiles t2, or a 250mm railgun setup with a RCU instead of one mag stab t2. * max gun damage with max skills: 198 dps (antimatter). * max missile damage with max skills: 2 (number of launchers) * 150 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (heavies skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.10 (warhead upgrades) / (14.4 (base rof) * 0.85 (rapid launch) * 0.9 (missile launcher operation skill)) = 41 dps. Not sure about this, i'm not used to the new missiles skills but i think that i got it right. * sum: 239 dps. Maller: (a) 5 * heavy beams t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 (actually, it's a tad to short on cpu with maxed skills, but who cares) 4 * heat sink t2 & 2 * RCU t2 * damage with max skills: 302 dps (multifreq). (b) 5 * medium focused beams t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 6 * heat sink t2 * damage with max skills: 309 dps (multifreq, slightly outranged by other guns in the comparison though). (c)There is a mix of beams that does slightly more damage, 4 heavy & 1 med focused with 5 damage mods. Damage < 330 dps though. And, erm, we know about how good amarr ships are at stacking damage mods, don't we... As was already known before the calculations, this doesn't help in telling how much drone bay should have the thorax :/ Edit: the reason is simple, with that kind of setup the fight is over before any amount or kind of drones can make a difference.
I have gallente cruiser 3, heavy drones 2 and do not use t2 guns on my thorax, but each his own preference. t2 guns are not a must have, neither are the cruiser bonus. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 03:03:00 -
[1009] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 03:29:38
I am also interested in the numbers, and even started computing them, but I gave up for a very simple reason. They are nice to have, but most of them do not help to determine if the drone bay is too big or not. [comparison of gank setups (most damaging setups at 20km with highest damaging ammo at that range)] Thorax: 5 * 200mm railguns t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 4 mag stabs t2 & 1 RCU t2 * max gun damage with max skills: 283 dps (plutonium to have similar range, though with 2 tracking comp t2 antimatter would work too. 308 dps with AM). Rupture: 4 * 720mm artillery t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 4 gyro stabs t2 & 1 RCU t2 Note that this setup is easier to fit (cpu wise) and more damaging than a 650mm artillery setup with heavy missiles t2. * max gun damage with max skills: 269 dps (emp). Moa: 4 * 200mm railguns t2 & 2 heavy launcher t2 (they fit both with advanced weapon upgrades 4, i think) 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 & 1 something (how could we ever control this variable) 4 mag stabs t2 Note that this setup is more damaging than a 250mm railgun setup without heavy missiles t2, or a 250mm railgun setup with a RCU instead of one mag stab t2. * max gun damage with max skills: 198 dps (antimatter). * max missile damage with max skills: 2 (number of launchers) * 150 (ammo damage) * 1.25 (heavies skill) * 1.10 (specialization skill) * 1.10 (warhead upgrades) / (14.4 (base rof) * 0.85 (rapid launch) * 0.9 (missile launcher operation skill)) = 41 dps. Not sure about this, i'm not used to the new missiles skills but i think that i got it right. * sum: 239 dps. Maller: (a) 5 * heavy beams t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 (actually, it's a tad to short on cpu with maxed skills, but who cares) 4 * heat sink t2 & 2 * RCU t2 * damage with max skills: 302 dps (multifreq). (b) 5 * medium focused beams t2 1 sensor booster t2 & 2 tracking computer t2 6 * heat sink t2 * damage with max skills: 309 dps (multifreq, slightly outranged by other guns in the comparison though). (c)There is a mix of beams that does slightly more damage, 4 heavy & 1 med focused with 5 damage mods. Damage < 330 dps though. And, erm, we know about how good amarr ships are at stacking damage mods, don't we... As was already known before the calculations, this doesn't help in telling how much drone bay should have the thorax :/ Edit: the reason is simple, with that kind of setup the fight is over before any amount or kind of drones can make a difference.
I have gallente cruiser 3, heavy drones 2 and do not use t2 guns on my thorax, but each his own preference. t2 guns are not a must have, neither are the cruiser bonus. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.09.04 08:15:00 -
[1010] Wow, you lot still moaning. |
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.09.04 08:15:00 -
[1011] Wow, you lot still moaning. |
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.09.04 08:15:00 -
[1012] Wow, you lot still moaning. |
Justice Bringer |
Posted - 2005.09.04 09:48:00 -
[1013]
A very good post Nyxus and nice to see someone take time to do an in depth comparison of sorts. I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long. Please do this comparison (if you can) and then we'lll begin to have a full picture of the Thorax from close to far and its corresponding DPS. I'm quite sure that you'll all agree that the Eagle and Cerberus HAS have very low DPS compared with their peers and this is a result of the distance at which they must operate. And i'm sure the Thorax will have a decrease in its DPS at around 40km - 45km also compared with point blank range of <10km. Just my thoughts. |
 Justice Bringer Minmatar United Univers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 09:48:00 -
[1014]
A very good post Nyxus and nice to see someone take time to do an in depth comparison of sorts. I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long. Please do this comparison (if you can) and then we'lll begin to have a full picture of the Thorax from close to far and its corresponding DPS. I'm quite sure that you'll all agree that the Eagle and Cerberus HAS have very low DPS compared with their peers and this is a result of the distance at which they must operate. And i'm sure the Thorax will have a decrease in its DPS at around 40km - 45km also compared with point blank range of <10km. Just my thoughts. |
Justice Bringer Minmatar United Univers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 09:48:00 -
[1015]
A very good post Nyxus and nice to see someone take time to do an in depth comparison of sorts. I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long. Please do this comparison (if you can) and then we'lll begin to have a full picture of the Thorax from close to far and its corresponding DPS. I'm quite sure that you'll all agree that the Eagle and Cerberus HAS have very low DPS compared with their peers and this is a result of the distance at which they must operate. And i'm sure the Thorax will have a decrease in its DPS at around 40km - 45km also compared with point blank range of <10km. Just my thoughts. |
Ithildin |
Posted - 2005.09.04 10:50:00 -
[1016] Thanks, Naughty Boy. Just a few points: * In your comparison you listed only 4 turrets on the Rupture and no launchers, could it not fit even Assault Launchers afterwards? * Where the Maller doesn't have drones to slightly augment it's damage or to serve as a small-ship protection, it does have nearly 50% better tracking than the others and a tanking bonus. * It is interesting how the Moa lags behind in damage, however a single electronic warfare module in the last med slot may make all the difference in a combat. Can't help feeling that a tiny something is still needed, however. Just remember that equality in damage isn't everything and that you don't fly Caldari to do lots of damage. * It is amazing how all ships perform similar in a direct damage calculation using long range turrets. Thorax. The Thorax' fortÚ is blasters, and this is where things get difficult. Blasters require a very expensive (fitting) micro warpdrive. Also, the Thorax has a bonus to micro warpdrive efficiency which it doesn't use when fitted with long range turrets. A basic problem with this balance is that blasters and railguns are too similar, and thus you cannot build the Thorax as a pro-blaster ship nor can you make a generalized boost to it's fittings without possibly unbalancing the long-range balance. It would be interesting if CCP's developers took their time to make the hybrid fitting requirements loaded differently, with railguns more kind to Caldari powergrid and CPU and blasters more kind to Gallentean powergrid and CPU. In other words, make railguns require more CPU and less powergrid while blasters require more powergrid and less CPU, and additionally have Gallentean ships increase in powergrid and decrease in CPU (making them more similar to Amarrian fitting grid and CPU). Granted, the tampering should only be done to encourage the use of the two different weapons, and not prohibit the use of the other type. This is to support that Gallente and Caldari both use two different weapon types (the secondary weapon types being either drones or missiles), and by splitting the hybrid category in two "parts", thus increasing predictability, allows for better optimization of the incorporation of the two factions philosophies onto their respective ship hulls. -- Ligh weight. Some people fly Thorax or Armageddon to compensate what their body lack. I fly Dominix. |
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.09.04 10:50:00 -
[1017] Thanks, Naughty Boy. Just a few points: * In your comparison you listed only 4 turrets on the Rupture and no launchers, could it not fit even Assault Launchers afterwards? * Where the Maller doesn't have drones to slightly augment it's damage or to serve as a small-ship protection, it does have nearly 50% better tracking than the others and a tanking bonus. * It is interesting how the Moa lags behind in damage, however a single electronic warfare module in the last med slot may make all the difference in a combat. Can't help feeling that a tiny something is still needed, however. Just remember that equality in damage isn't everything and that you don't fly Caldari to do lots of damage. * It is amazing how all ships perform similar in a direct damage calculation using long range turrets. Thorax. The Thorax' fortT is blasters, and this is where things get difficult. Blasters require a very expensive (fitting) micro warpdrive. Also, the Thorax has a bonus to micro warpdrive efficiency which it doesn't use when fitted with long range turrets. A basic problem with this balance is that blasters and railguns are too similar, and thus you cannot build the Thorax as a pro-blaster ship nor can you make a generalized boost to it's fittings without possibly unbalancing the long-range balance. It would be interesting if CCP's developers took their time to make the hybrid fitting requirements loaded differently, with railguns more kind to Caldari powergrid and CPU and blasters more kind to Gallentean powergrid and CPU. In other words, make railguns require more CPU and less powergrid while blasters require more powergrid and less CPU, and additionally have Gallentean ships increase in powergrid and decrease in CPU (making them more similar to Amarrian fitting grid and CPU). Granted, the tampering should only be done to encourage the use of the two different weapons, and not prohibit the use of the other type. This is to support that Gallente and Caldari both use two different weapon types (the secondary weapon types being either drones or missiles), and by splitting the hybrid category in two "parts", thus increasing predictability, allows for better optimization of the incorporation of the two factions philosophies onto their respective ship hulls. - EVE is sick. |
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.09.04 10:50:00 -
[1018] Thanks, Naughty Boy. Just a few points: * In your comparison you listed only 4 turrets on the Rupture and no launchers, could it not fit even Assault Launchers afterwards? * Where the Maller doesn't have drones to slightly augment it's damage or to serve as a small-ship protection, it does have nearly 50% better tracking than the others and a tanking bonus. * It is interesting how the Moa lags behind in damage, however a single electronic warfare module in the last med slot may make all the difference in a combat. Can't help feeling that a tiny something is still needed, however. Just remember that equality in damage isn't everything and that you don't fly Caldari to do lots of damage. * It is amazing how all ships perform similar in a direct damage calculation using long range turrets. Thorax. The Thorax' fortT is blasters, and this is where things get difficult. Blasters require a very expensive (fitting) micro warpdrive. Also, the Thorax has a bonus to micro warpdrive efficiency which it doesn't use when fitted with long range turrets. A basic problem with this balance is that blasters and railguns are too similar, and thus you cannot build the Thorax as a pro-blaster ship nor can you make a generalized boost to it's fittings without possibly unbalancing the long-range balance. It would be interesting if CCP's developers took their time to make the hybrid fitting requirements loaded differently, with railguns more kind to Caldari powergrid and CPU and blasters more kind to Gallentean powergrid and CPU. In other words, make railguns require more CPU and less powergrid while blasters require more powergrid and less CPU, and additionally have Gallentean ships increase in powergrid and decrease in CPU (making them more similar to Amarrian fitting grid and CPU). Granted, the tampering should only be done to encourage the use of the two different weapons, and not prohibit the use of the other type. This is to support that Gallente and Caldari both use two different weapon types (the secondary weapon types being either drones or missiles), and by splitting the hybrid category in two "parts", thus increasing predictability, allows for better optimization of the incorporation of the two factions philosophies onto their respective ship hulls. - EVE is sick. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:56:00 -
[1019] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 13:11:56
Rupture pg with 1 RCU t2: 725*1.15*1.25=1042.1875 MW (engineering 5) 4* 720mm artillery t2: 4*275*0.9 = 990 MW (advanced weapon upgrades 5) 4 damage mods + sensor booster + 2 tracking comps: 7 MW Free pg for the 2 remaining high slots: 45 MW which isn't enough for a single t1 assault launcher. At best, you can get there two standard missile launchers. With advanced weapons upgrade 3, only 1 MW is free for the two high slots. I understand your concern as I didn't mention what to do with the 2 remaining high slots. To be honest, i didn't even compute it, though i should have. Indeed, the maller does really good, and far better than one could have expected considering the fitting requirements of beam lasers. Sure, but as is said i don't think that there is a way to control that variable. I showed the calculations mostly to show that this kind of parameters is very hard to control. There was no tanking involved, no "navigation" needed, no flight time for missiles, so it should have been an easy comparison. However, it is not easy, as the 4th mid of the moa shows here. Adding tanking, manoeuvring to get in range, and variations in setup in a comparison of numbers would leave you with things impossible to compare, due to the excessive number of parameters. Indeed, the results are really close. Though, half of the setups would have been impossible before the introduction of the "advanced weapon upgrades" skill: the moa need it to fit heavy launchers, accounting for 20% extra damage, and the rupture need it to fit it's 4th gun (instead of 650mm doing far less damage). They should have traded a damage mod for a power mod, decreasing further their already lower damage. In comparison, the long range thorax fitting is an easy fit. The maller is a different case, for various reasons (working mix of guns, stacking of damage mods). (continued) --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:56:00 -
[1020] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 13:09:52 There is indeed an issue there, though i would add that gallente bonus are in general far more versatile than the caldari bonus. A damage bonus, or even a tracking bonus, is something that helps railguns more than a range bonus helps blasters. There are also other factors to compare, than a blaster-moa pilot would point easily: high mass, low speed, low agility, are problems for short range. If anything, the moa has it worse than any other cruiser in the comparison if you overlook the 4th mid slot. I can see some people fitting 425mm railgun on their mega be somehow angry about such a change As a general note about the calculations, i think that they are not going to show us something that we don't know already. The most interesting number that i saw, in this thread, in relation to this issue, is the total hp of 8 heavy drones. The number clearly show how 8 heavy drones don't belong to the cruiser world. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:56:00 -
[1021] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 13:11:56
Rupture pg with 1 RCU t2: 725*1.15*1.25=1042.1875 MW (engineering 5) 4* 720mm artillery t2: 4*275*0.9 = 990 MW (advanced weapon upgrades 5) 4 damage mods + sensor booster + 2 tracking comps: 7 MW Free pg for the 2 remaining high slots: 45 MW which isn't enough for a single t1 assault launcher. At best, you can get there two standard missile launchers. With advanced weapons upgrade 3, only 1 MW is free for the two high slots. I understand your concern as I didn't mention what to do with the 2 remaining high slots. To be honest, i didn't even compute it, though i should have. Indeed, the maller does really good, and far better than one could have expected considering the fitting requirements of beam lasers. Sure, but as is said i don't think that there is a way to control that variable. I showed the calculations mostly to show that this kind of parameters is very hard to control. There was no tanking involved, no "navigation" needed, no flight time for missiles, so it should have been an easy comparison. However, it is not easy, as the 4th mid of the moa shows here. Adding tanking, manoeuvring to get in range, and variations in setup in a comparison of numbers would leave you with things impossible to compare, due to the excessive number of parameters. Indeed, the results are really close. Though, half of the setups would have been impossible before the introduction of the "advanced weapon upgrades" skill: the moa need it to fit heavy launchers, accounting for 20% extra damage, and the rupture need it to fit it's 4th gun (instead of 650mm doing far less damage). They should have traded a damage mod for a power mod, decreasing further their already lower damage. In comparison, the long range thorax fitting is an easy fit. The maller is a different case, for various reasons (working mix of guns, stacking of damage mods). (continued) In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:56:00 -
[1022] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 13:09:52 There is indeed an issue there, though i would add that gallente bonus are in general far more versatile than the caldari bonus. A damage bonus, or even a tracking bonus, is something that helps railguns more than a range bonus helps blasters. There are also other factors to compare, than a blaster-moa pilot would point easily: high mass, low speed, low agility, are problems for short range. If anything, the moa has it worse than any other cruiser in the comparison if you overlook the 4th mid slot. I can see some people fitting 425mm railgun on their mega be somehow angry about such a change As a general note about the calculations, i think that they are not going to show us something that we don't know already. The most interesting number that i saw, in this thread, in relation to this issue, is the total hp of 8 heavy drones. The number clearly show how 8 heavy drones don't belong to the cruiser world. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:56:00 -
[1023] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 13:11:56
Rupture pg with 1 RCU t2: 725*1.15*1.25=1042.1875 MW (engineering 5) 4* 720mm artillery t2: 4*275*0.9 = 990 MW (advanced weapon upgrades 5) 4 damage mods + sensor booster + 2 tracking comps: 7 MW Free pg for the 2 remaining high slots: 45 MW which isn't enough for a single t1 assault launcher. At best, you can get there two standard missile launchers. With advanced weapons upgrade 3, only 1 MW is free for the two high slots. I understand your concern as I didn't mention what to do with the 2 remaining high slots. To be honest, i didn't even compute it, though i should have. Indeed, the maller does really good, and far better than one could have expected considering the fitting requirements of beam lasers. Sure, but as is said i don't think that there is a way to control that variable. I showed the calculations mostly to show that this kind of parameters is very hard to control. There was no tanking involved, no "navigation" needed, no flight time for missiles, so it should have been an easy comparison. However, it is not easy, as the 4th mid of the moa shows here. Adding tanking, manoeuvring to get in range, and variations in setup in a comparison of numbers would leave you with things impossible to compare, due to the excessive number of parameters. Indeed, the results are really close. Though, half of the setups would have been impossible before the introduction of the "advanced weapon upgrades" skill: the moa need it to fit heavy launchers, accounting for 20% extra damage, and the rupture need it to fit it's 4th gun (instead of 650mm doing far less damage). They should have traded a damage mod for a power mod, decreasing further their already lower damage. In comparison, the long range thorax fitting is an easy fit. The maller is a different case, for various reasons (working mix of guns, stacking of damage mods). (continued) In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:56:00 -
[1024] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/09/2005 13:09:52 There is indeed an issue there, though i would add that gallente bonus are in general far more versatile than the caldari bonus. A damage bonus, or even a tracking bonus, is something that helps railguns more than a range bonus helps blasters. There are also other factors to compare, than a blaster-moa pilot would point easily: high mass, low speed, low agility, are problems for short range. If anything, the moa has it worse than any other cruiser in the comparison if you overlook the 4th mid slot. I can see some people fitting 425mm railgun on their mega be somehow angry about such a change As a general note about the calculations, i think that they are not going to show us something that we don't know already. The most interesting number that i saw, in this thread, in relation to this issue, is the total hp of 8 heavy drones. The number clearly show how 8 heavy drones don't belong to the cruiser world. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:21:00 -
[1025] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/09/2005 14:28:16 "I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long." Leaving aside it's rather pointless to calculate damage past 20 km -.^ ... i think you're overall in for a surprise. Don't forget the turrets have to switch to lighter ammo to reach these kinds of ranges, meaning their damage drops considerably as well. i'll use original values Nyxus provided, for quick estimation: Maller - 54 DPS Moa - 49 DPS Thorax - 47 DPS Omen - 43 DPS Rupture - 41 DPS Stabber - 41 DPS Vexxor - 37 DPS for 20 km range, halving these numbers provides reasonable ballpark value. For 45 km range... you might try halving them again, for estimate. So at 20 km gun damage might be something like: Maller - 27 DPS Moa - 24.5 DPS Thorax - 23.5 DPS Omen - 21.5 DPS Rupture - 20.5 DPS Stabber - 20.5 DPS Vexxor - 18.5 DPS and at 40+ km... screw the math, overall no ship will be doing more than 15 dps with their guns. The ships with missile launchers gain slight edge here, given the launchers don't need to switch ammo to gain range. What does it mean? It means a turret ship staying at 40 km range after 1 minute will deal about enough damage to get down Thorax shield, and now faces the prospect to chew through ~5x more armour and whatever the Thorax manages to regen/repair during the following 5+ minutes. This is more than enough time for the drones to leisurely walk over there, and then inflict their ~170 dps on the ship that's meanwhile trying to kill the drone carrier at amazing rate of 15 dps... it doesn't really look too good, does it -.o (if someone says to kill the drones instead... well, with their amount of hp it'd take ~2-3 mins to kill them with this sort of damage output, even switching the ammo and whatnot. The whole fight at 40km thing sounds silly overall tbh, and i can't really imagine it happening in the first place. The other ship trying to stay at ~20 km, maybe... this one would probably have similar outcome though, since even though gun damage output doubles in comparison to 40 km fight, the time needed for drones to get to their target halves... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:21:00 -
[1026] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/09/2005 14:34:21 "I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long." Leaving aside it's rather pointless to calculate damage past 20 km -.^ ... i think you're overall in for a surprise. Don't forget the turrets have to switch to lighter ammo to reach these kinds of ranges, meaning their damage drops considerably as well. i'll use original values Nyxus provided, for quick estimation: Maller - 54 DPS Moa - 49 DPS Thorax - 47 DPS Omen - 43 DPS Rupture - 41 DPS Stabber - 41 DPS Vexxor - 37 DPS for 20 km range, reducing these numbers to ~2/3rd provides reasonable ballpark value. For 45 km range... you might try reducing them like that again, for estimate. So at 20 km gun damage might be somewhere between 35-25 dps, and at 40+ km... screw the math, overall no ship will be doing more than 20-15 dps with their guns. The ships with missile launchers gain slight edge here, given the launchers don't need to switch ammo to gain range. What does it mean? It means a turret ship staying at 40 km range after 1 minute will deal about enough damage to get down Thorax shield, and now faces the prospect to chew through ~5x more armour and whatever the Thorax manages to regen/repair during the following 5+ minutes. This is more than enough time for the drones to leisurely walk over there, and then inflict their ~170 dps on the ship that's meanwhile trying to kill the drone carrier at amazing rate of 15 dps... it doesn't really look too good, does it -.o (if someone says to kill the drones instead... well, with their amount of hp it'd take ~2-3 mins to kill them with this sort of damage output, even switching the ammo and whatnot. The whole fight at 40km thing sounds silly overall tbh, and i can't really imagine it happening in the first place. The other ship trying to stay at ~20 km, maybe... this one would probably have similar outcome though, since even though gun damage output doubles in comparison to 40 km fight, the time needed for drones to get to their target halves... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:21:00 -
[1027] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/09/2005 14:34:21 "I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long." Leaving aside it's rather pointless to calculate damage past 20 km -.^ ... i think you're overall in for a surprise. Don't forget the turrets have to switch to lighter ammo to reach these kinds of ranges, meaning their damage drops considerably as well. i'll use original values Nyxus provided, for quick estimation: Maller - 54 DPS Moa - 49 DPS Thorax - 47 DPS Omen - 43 DPS Rupture - 41 DPS Stabber - 41 DPS Vexxor - 37 DPS for 20 km range, reducing these numbers to ~2/3rd provides reasonable ballpark value. For 45 km range... you might try reducing them like that again, for estimate. So at 20 km gun damage might be somewhere between 35-25 dps, and at 40+ km... screw the math, overall no ship will be doing more than 20-15 dps with their guns. The ships with missile launchers gain slight edge here, given the launchers don't need to switch ammo to gain range. What does it mean? It means a turret ship staying at 40 km range after 1 minute will deal about enough damage to get down Thorax shield, and now faces the prospect to chew through ~5x more armour and whatever the Thorax manages to regen/repair during the following 5+ minutes. This is more than enough time for the drones to leisurely walk over there, and then inflict their ~170 dps on the ship that's meanwhile trying to kill the drone carrier at amazing rate of 15 dps... it doesn't really look too good, does it -.o (if someone says to kill the drones instead... well, with their amount of hp it'd take ~2-3 mins to kill them with this sort of damage output, even switching the ammo and whatnot. The whole fight at 40km thing sounds silly overall tbh, and i can't really imagine it happening in the first place. The other ship trying to stay at ~20 km, maybe... this one would probably have similar outcome though, since even though gun damage output doubles in comparison to 40 km fight, the time needed for drones to get to their target halves... o.O; |
Sariyah |
Posted - 2005.09.04 17:30:00 -
[1028]
Did you ever consider making a thread about nerfing drones? Like halving their armor, shield, res, dmg, tracking, speed, doubling their sig radius. Just an idea. - DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions presented anywhere in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of HUN Corp or Imperium unless otherwise specifically stated. |
 Sariyah Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2005.09.04 17:30:00 -
[1029]
Did you ever consider making a thread about nerfing drones? Like halving their armor, shield, res, dmg, tracking, speed, doubling their sig radius. Just an idea. - DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions presented anywhere in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of HUN Corp or ERA unless otherwise specifically stated. |
Sariyah Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2005.09.04 17:30:00 -
[1030]
Did you ever consider making a thread about nerfing drones? Like halving their armor, shield, res, dmg, tracking, speed, doubling their sig radius. Just an idea. - DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions presented anywhere in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of HUN Corp or ERA unless otherwise specifically stated. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.04 18:14:00 -
[1031]
Maybe, because 6-10 heavy drones are fine on a BS ? Maybe because 6 heavy drones / 15 mediums drones are fine on a vexor/arbitrator ? Why change the drones when the thorax is the problem ? It's amazing, from the start of the thread some people are trying to make everybody believe that the drone bay of the thorax is fine, but everything else should be changed so that it actually make sense for the thorax drone bay to be that big. Here's one for you, double the size of every drone and every drone bay bar the thorax, and you can keep you drone bay volume. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 18:14:00 -
[1032]
Maybe, because 6-10 heavy drones are fine on a BS ? Maybe because 6 heavy drones / 15 mediums drones are fine on a vexor/arbitrator ? Why change the drones when the thorax is the problem ? It's amazing, from the start of the thread some people are trying to make everybody believe that the drone bay of the thorax is fine, but everything else should be changed so that it actually make sense for the thorax drone bay to be that big. Here's one for you, double the size of every drone and every drone bay bar the thorax, and you can keep you drone bay volume. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.04 18:14:00 -
[1033]
Maybe, because 6-10 heavy drones are fine on a BS ? Maybe because 6 heavy drones / 15 mediums drones are fine on a vexor/arbitrator ? Why change the drones when the thorax is the problem ? It's amazing, from the start of the thread some people are trying to make everybody believe that the drone bay of the thorax is fine, but everything else should be changed so that it actually make sense for the thorax drone bay to be that big. Here's one for you, double the size of every drone and every drone bay bar the thorax, and you can keep you drone bay volume. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.09.04 18:21:00 -
[1034]
Calc the rupture using dual 180s, not 280s. Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.09.04 18:21:00 -
[1035]
Calc the rupture using dual 180s, not 280s. Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Magnum VII |
Posted - 2005.09.04 21:26:00 -
[1036] Don't Nerf Anything, we pay for them what we want, there fore, if it is so powerfull we should be paying more, were not but that's the ship dealers choice to sell it for low. Or I could be wrong, so whatever :) |
 Magnum VII Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2005.09.04 21:26:00 -
[1037] Don't Nerf Anything, we pay for them what we want, there fore, if it is so powerfull we should be paying more, were not but that's the ship dealers choice to sell it for low. Or I could be wrong, so whatever :) |
Magnum VII Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2005.09.04 21:26:00 -
[1038] Don't Nerf Anything, we pay for them what we want, there fore, if it is so powerfull we should be paying more, were not but that's the ship dealers choice to sell it for low. Or I could be wrong, so whatever :) |
BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.09.04 23:50:00 -
[1039] First of all,great post Nyxus.Instead of raw DPS scenarios we also have a damage per 60 secs one,that illustrates the outcome of a typical cruiser fight.Plus,you saved me the trouble of doing the math myself Drunkenone also has a point when he says:
Due to the no-bonus=crap damage situation on projectiles,the smallest medium autocannon comes into play,which would probably be the antifrig/short range weapon of choice. As for changing everything else except the thorax drone bay(plates,drone HPs,strawberries being red and whatever) i'll have to agree with the following solution.
|
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.09.04 23:50:00 -
[1040] First of all,great post Nyxus.Instead of raw DPS scenarios we also have a damage per 60 secs one,that illustrates the outcome of a typical cruiser fight.Plus,you saved me the trouble of doing the math myself Drunkenone also has a point when he says:
Due to the no-bonus=crap damage situation on projectiles,the smallest medium autocannon comes into play,which would probably be the antifrig/short range weapon of choice. As for changing everything else except the thorax drone bay(plates,drone HPs,strawberries being red and whatever) i'll have to agree with the following solution.
|
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.09.04 23:50:00 -
[1041] First of all,great post Nyxus.Instead of raw DPS scenarios we also have a damage per 60 secs one,that illustrates the outcome of a typical cruiser fight.Plus,you saved me the trouble of doing the math myself Drunkenone also has a point when he says:
Due to the no-bonus=crap damage situation on projectiles,the smallest medium autocannon comes into play,which would probably be the antifrig/short range weapon of choice. As for changing everything else except the thorax drone bay(plates,drone HPs,strawberries being red and whatever) i'll have to agree with the following solution.
|
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 00:52:00 -
[1042] So, lets say the rax got its drone bay nerf... would it be acceptable for it to gain two extra slots? After all.. the rupture has 14 slots, the Moa has 14 slots, the maller has 15 slots.. and the rax has 13 slots.. that would bring it inline slot wise with the other Tier 3 cruisers. I belive another low slot and maybe a mid slot would balance things out, for the reduction of its drone bay. Then hopefully the oversized plates with be sorted out, and then we can work on the cries of how poor all cruisers are.. then people can be reminded of how a one of the only decent cruisers we had got nerfed. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 00:52:00 -
[1043] So, lets say the rax got its drone bay nerf... would it be acceptable for it to gain two extra slots? After all.. the rupture has 14 slots, the Moa has 14 slots, the maller has 15 slots.. and the rax has 13 slots.. that would bring it inline slot wise with the other Tier 3 cruisers. I belive another low slot and maybe a mid slot would balance things out, for the reduction of its drone bay. Then hopefully the oversized plates with be sorted out, and then we can work on the cries of how poor all cruisers are.. then people can be reminded of how a one of the only decent cruisers we had got nerfed. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 00:52:00 -
[1044] So, lets say the rax got its drone bay nerf... would it be acceptable for it to gain two extra slots? After all.. the rupture has 14 slots, the Moa has 14 slots, the maller has 15 slots.. and the rax has 13 slots.. that would bring it inline slot wise with the other Tier 3 cruisers. I belive another low slot and maybe a mid slot would balance things out, for the reduction of its drone bay. Then hopefully the oversized plates with be sorted out, and then we can work on the cries of how poor all cruisers are.. then people can be reminded of how a one of the only decent cruisers we had got nerfed. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:05:00 -
[1045] Edited by: Garreck on 05/09/2005 02:05:20 Insane. Nobody is even considering how fragile the thorax is without plate. All of those beautiful calculations took into account battleship plate and small turrets, which is what makes the thorax so insanely powerful...not the drones. Yes, it will maintain a high damage output; but it will be far easier to put down without the plate. Nobody wants to even try it out. Thorax has to cross the full distance to its target to do damage. Thorax without plate is paper thin. It has high damage output to make up for both of those factors. And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:05:00 -
[1046] Edited by: Garreck on 05/09/2005 02:05:20 Insane. Nobody is even considering how fragile the thorax is without plate. All of those beautiful calculations took into account battleship plate and small turrets, which is what makes the thorax so insanely powerful...not the drones. Yes, it will maintain a high damage output; but it will be far easier to put down without the plate. Nobody wants to even try it out. Thorax has to cross the full distance to its target to do damage. Thorax without plate is paper thin. It has high damage output to make up for both of those factors. And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:05:00 -
[1047] Edited by: Garreck on 05/09/2005 02:05:20 Insane. Nobody is even considering how fragile the thorax is without plate. All of those beautiful calculations took into account battleship plate and small turrets, which is what makes the thorax so insanely powerful...not the drones. Yes, it will maintain a high damage output; but it will be far easier to put down without the plate. Nobody wants to even try it out. Thorax has to cross the full distance to its target to do damage. Thorax without plate is paper thin. It has high damage output to make up for both of those factors. And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[1048] "And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced." Probably because Vexor hull is given to Ishtar which is the tech.2 drone carrier, while Deimos is the tech.2 gunboat... so people want the tech.1 versions to match that ^^;; (oh and ftr i do consider Thorax without plate sufficiently fragile -.o it's just like discussed earlier, possibly no one really wants to see plates go from cruisers in general, because it'd mean other cruisers turn paper-thin as well, and again become unable to face anything bigger than them. So it's more convenient to demand drone murder... |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[1049] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 02:47:26 I *think* that there is a fair share of provocation in this. Fair enough, i'll play your game. The thorax does as much damage at long range than the other tier 3 cruisers, with one less slot. Therefore, it doesn't need anymore drone bay than any of them, so at most 60m¦ as the rupture. It should also lose some powergrid as it is not fair that moa and rupture pilots do have to train the advanced weapon upgrade skill to 3 to match the damage of the thorax, whereas the thorax do not even have to max the weapon upgrade skill. It can only have another low slot if it is compensated by a loss of 15% of powergrid, or the loss of its damage bonus, since another "free" low slot would allow it to outdamage all the other tier 3 cruisers at long range. Disclaimer: all what i wrote above can be shown using calculations but is in no way something that i support. This is only an illustration that balance does not mean "everybody should get as many slots as the others". Bonuses, slots, pg, cpu, drone bay, speed, agility, sensor strenght, sig radius, and basically every possible attribute is also a balancing factor. See above. What would be the point to nerf something blatantly overpowered if it was to replace it by something equally stupidly overpowered. Aye, you got it all right. If we "sort out" ( ) the (oversized) plates, cruisers will be poor again. I totally agree with you. Hence, why i don't see why so many people want them to get "nerfed". Oh, noes, plates made us all "rethink" (yeah, right, that was deep thinking) our gank-setups.There is some tweaking needed for plates, however bringing confusion about that into this issue makes you look desesperate. In case you didn't notice (yet), bringing confusion didn't work well so far and probably won't work any better in the future. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: removed unfriendly comment, sorry. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[1050] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 02:47:26 I *think* that there is a fair share of provocation in this. Fair enough, i'll play your game. The thorax does as much damage at long range than the other tier 3 cruisers, with one less slot. Therefore, it doesn't need anymore drone bay than any of them, so at most 60m¦ as the rupture. It should also lose some powergrid as it is not fair that moa and rupture pilots do have to train the advanced weapon upgrade skill to 3 to match the damage of the thorax, whereas the thorax do not even have to max the weapon upgrade skill. It can only have another low slot if it is compensated by a loss of 15% of powergrid, or the loss of its damage bonus, since another "free" low slot would allow it to outdamage all the other tier 3 cruisers at long range. Disclaimer: all what i wrote above can be shown using calculations but is in no way something that i support. This is only an illustration that balance does not mean "everybody should get as many slots as the others". Bonuses, slots, pg, cpu, drone bay, speed, agility, sensor strenght, sig radius, and basically every possible attribute is also a balancing factor. See above. What would be the point to nerf something blatantly overpowered if it was to replace it by something equally stupidly overpowered. Aye, you got it all right. If we "sort out" ( ) the (oversized) plates, cruisers will be poor again. I totally agree with you. Hence, why i don't see why so many people want them to get "nerfed". Oh, noes, plates made us all "rethink" (yeah, right, that was deep thinking) our gank-setups.There is some tweaking needed for plates, however bringing confusion about that into this issue makes you look desesperate. In case you didn't notice (yet), bringing confusion didn't work well so far and probably won't work any better in the future. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: removed unfriendly comment, sorry. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[1051] "And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced." Probably because Vexor hull is given to Ishtar which is the tech.2 drone carrier, while Deimos is the tech.2 gunboat... so people want the tech.1 versions to match that ^^;; (oh and ftr i do consider Thorax without plate sufficiently fragile -.o it's just like discussed earlier, possibly no one really wants to see plates go from cruisers in general, because it'd mean other cruisers turn paper-thin as well, and again become unable to face anything bigger than them. So it's more convenient to demand drone murder... |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[1052] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 02:47:26 I *think* that there is a fair share of provocation in this. Fair enough, i'll play your game. The thorax does as much damage at long range than the other tier 3 cruisers, with one less slot. Therefore, it doesn't need anymore drone bay than any of them, so at most 60m¦ as the rupture. It should also lose some powergrid as it is not fair that moa and rupture pilots do have to train the advanced weapon upgrade skill to 3 to match the damage of the thorax, whereas the thorax do not even have to max the weapon upgrade skill. It can only have another low slot if it is compensated by a loss of 15% of powergrid, or the loss of its damage bonus, since another "free" low slot would allow it to outdamage all the other tier 3 cruisers at long range. Disclaimer: all what i wrote above can be shown using calculations but is in no way something that i support. This is only an illustration that balance does not mean "everybody should get as many slots as the others". Bonuses, slots, pg, cpu, drone bay, speed, agility, sensor strenght, sig radius, and basically every possible attribute is also a balancing factor. See above. What would be the point to nerf something blatantly overpowered if it was to replace it by something equally stupidly overpowered. Aye, you got it all right. If we "sort out" ( ) the (oversized) plates, cruisers will be poor again. I totally agree with you. Hence, why i don't see why so many people want them to get "nerfed". Oh, noes, plates made us all "rethink" (yeah, right, that was deep thinking) our gank-setups.There is some tweaking needed for plates, however bringing confusion about that into this issue makes you look desesperate. In case you didn't notice (yet), bringing confusion didn't work well so far and probably won't work any better in the future. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: removed unfriendly comment, sorry. In Rust We Trust |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[1053] "And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced." Probably because Vexor hull is given to Ishtar which is the tech.2 drone carrier, while Deimos is the tech.2 gunboat... so people want the tech.1 versions to match that ^^;; (oh and ftr i do consider Thorax without plate sufficiently fragile -.o it's just like discussed earlier, possibly no one really wants to see plates go from cruisers in general, because it'd mean other cruisers turn paper-thin as well, and again become unable to face anything bigger than them. So it's more convenient to demand drone murder... |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:25:00 -
[1054]
Garreck, its no point in trying to convice them that.. they are so set in their minds that the rax is uber because of the drones and fail to see that it is the plates that are the problem. Even when it slaps them in the face.. the rax isn't just affected by the oversized plates.. the claw is too. All we can hope for is that if the bay is reduced, us rax pilots get our 2 extra slots in return. (and for the record, i agree with what you say.) |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:25:00 -
[1055]
Garreck, its no point in trying to convice them that.. they are so set in their minds that the rax is uber because of the drones and fail to see that it is the plates that are the problem. Even when it slaps them in the face.. the rax isn't just affected by the oversized plates.. the claw is too. All we can hope for is that if the bay is reduced, us rax pilots get our 2 extra slots in return. (and for the record, i agree with what you say.) |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:25:00 -
[1056]
Garreck, its no point in trying to convice them that.. they are so set in their minds that the rax is uber because of the drones and fail to see that it is the plates that are the problem. Even when it slaps them in the face.. the rax isn't just affected by the oversized plates.. the claw is too. All we can hope for is that if the bay is reduced, us rax pilots get our 2 extra slots in return. (and for the record, i agree with what you say.) |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:36:00 -
[1057] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 02:44:24
I don't know if you know about the "falsifiability" principle of Popper. I'm not willing to lecture people about it, but it would be something really interesting to use in this case. I'd like you to admit that you are wrong, but i can't find a way to do it. It is, either, because you are right, either, because you do not admit being wrong despite being wrong. Either, do i have to admit that you are right, either, i have to ask you which experiment would actually be able to determine that the drone bay is of adequate/inadequate size. Popper's principle says (sorry for the approximation, english is not my mother language) that if something cannot hypothetically be proven wrong, then it is not true either. I am ready to make the calculations, including reasonable random factors, on basis of an experiment that will be able to show which theory about the thorax (drone bay, plates) is actually the right one. You just have to describe the experiment. The catch is, and that's where things gets interesting, the issue of your experiment cannot be determined by another factor(s) that what we are discussing. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:36:00 -
[1058] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 02:44:24
I don't know if you know about the "falsifiability" principle of Popper. I'm not willing to lecture people about it, but it would be something really interesting to use in this case. I'd like you to admit that you are wrong, but i can't find a way to do it. It is, either, because you are right, either, because you do not admit being wrong despite being wrong. Either, do i have to admit that you are right, either, i have to ask you which experiment would actually be able to determine that the drone bay is of adequate/inadequate size. Popper's principle says (sorry for the approximation, english is not my mother language) that if something cannot hypothetically be proven wrong, then it is not true either. I am ready to make the calculations, including reasonable random factors, on basis of an experiment that will be able to show which theory about the thorax (drone bay, plates) is actually the right one. You just have to describe the experiment. The catch is, and that's where things gets interesting, the issue of your experiment cannot be determined by another factor(s) that what we are discussing. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:36:00 -
[1059] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 02:44:24
I don't know if you know about the "falsifiability" principle of Popper. I'm not willing to lecture people about it, but it would be something really interesting to use in this case. I'd like you to admit that you are wrong, but i can't find a way to do it. It is, either, because you are right, either, because you do not admit being wrong despite being wrong. Either, do i have to admit that you are right, either, i have to ask you which experiment would actually be able to determine that the drone bay is of adequate/inadequate size. Popper's principle says (sorry for the approximation, english is not my mother language) that if something cannot hypothetically be proven wrong, then it is not true either. I am ready to make the calculations, including reasonable random factors, on basis of an experiment that will be able to show which theory about the thorax (drone bay, plates) is actually the right one. You just have to describe the experiment. The catch is, and that's where things gets interesting, the issue of your experiment cannot be determined by another factor(s) that what we are discussing. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:43:00 -
[1060]
You didn't actually do anything to convince anybody, how could we be convinced ? I'm sorry, but jou just keep repeating that without any kind of reasoning to back you up, and i find this highly disturbing. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:43:00 -
[1061]
You didn't actually do anything to convince anybody, how could we be convinced ? I'm sorry, but jou just keep repeating that without any kind of reasoning to back you up, and i find this highly disturbing. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:43:00 -
[1062]
You didn't actually do anything to convince anybody, how could we be convinced ? I'm sorry, but jou just keep repeating that without any kind of reasoning to back you up, and i find this highly disturbing. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 03:17:00 -
[1063]
I'm sorry, if lack the basic understand that oversized plates are the problem.. i guess that you do indeed have evidence that some people can write but can read.. we only have to look up many of your posts.. hmmm now thats highly disturbing. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 03:17:00 -
[1064]
I'm sorry, if lack the basic understand that oversized plates are the problem.. i guess that you do indeed have evidence that some people can write but can read.. we only have to look up many of your posts.. hmmm now thats highly disturbing. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 03:17:00 -
[1065]
I'm sorry, if lack the basic understand that oversized plates are the problem.. i guess that you do indeed have evidence that some people can write but can read.. we only have to look up many of your posts.. hmmm now thats highly disturbing. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.09.05 03:27:00 -
[1066]
What exactly do i have to read, or where exactly do you prove your point ? A link, or even a post number will be enough, thank you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 03:27:00 -
[1067]
What exactly do i have to read, or where exactly do you prove your point ? A link, or even a post number will be enough, thank you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 03:27:00 -
[1068]
What exactly do i have to read, or where exactly do you prove your point ? A link, or even a post number will be enough, thank you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Stuart Price |
Posted - 2005.09.05 04:04:00 -
[1069] Smartbomb, jammers. Oh noes. That 'overpowered' thorax just got totally pwned. Think outside the box. Every ship has strengths, for every strength there is a counter. I personally feel that Moa's and Rupture's are vastly underrated. I'd be just as happy to take one of those into combat as a Thorax. People take the 'wow this 1337 setup pwnz0rs everything' threads as gospel. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
 Stuart Price Caldari Mercatoris Technologies |
Posted - 2005.09.05 04:04:00 -
[1070] Smartbomb, jammers. Oh noes. That 'overpowered' thorax just got totally pwned. Think outside the box. Every ship has strengths, for every strength there is a counter. I personally feel that Moa's and Rupture's are vastly underrated. I'd be just as happy to take one of those into combat as a Thorax. People take the 'wow this 1337 setup pwnz0rs everything' threads as gospel. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Stuart Price Caldari Mercatoris Technologies |
Posted - 2005.09.05 04:04:00 -
[1071] Smartbomb, jammers. Oh noes. That 'overpowered' thorax just got totally pwned. Think outside the box. Every ship has strengths, for every strength there is a counter. I personally feel that Moa's and Rupture's are vastly underrated. I'd be just as happy to take one of those into combat as a Thorax. People take the 'wow this 1337 setup pwnz0rs everything' threads as gospel. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.09.05 04:05:00 -
[1072] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 05/09/2005 04:13:02 Please explain to me how a Thorax without a plate is any weaker than any OTHER cruiser without a plate? It has 2025 HP compared to the average 2050 that other lvl 3 Cruisers have. Not to mention it does the majority of its damage through its drones and thus can easily use those 5 low slots for tanking while still having ridiculous damage output. The foundation of your arguement is built upon sand. Edit- And sorry Stuart bud, a medium smartbomb will take over 40 seconds to kill the drones. During that time the drones can do over 6800 points of damage to the target. And Jammers don't work if the Thorax has its drones attack you before you jam it. The problem with the Thorax is that it has way too many advantages for its own good. 8 Heavy drones and the rampant use of 1600mm plates are the reason. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.05 04:05:00 -
[1073] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 05/09/2005 04:13:02 Please explain to me how a Thorax without a plate is any weaker than any OTHER cruiser without a plate? It has 2025 HP compared to the average 2050 that other lvl 3 Cruisers have. Not to mention it does the majority of its damage through its drones and thus can easily use those 5 low slots for tanking while still having ridiculous damage output. The foundation of your arguement is built upon sand. Edit- And sorry Stuart bud, a medium smartbomb will take over 40 seconds to kill the drones. During that time the drones can do over 6800 points of damage to the target. And Jammers don't work if the Thorax has its drones attack you before you jam it. The problem with the Thorax is that it has way too many advantages for its own good. 8 Heavy drones and the rampant use of 1600mm plates are the reason. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.05 04:05:00 -
[1074] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 05/09/2005 04:13:02 Please explain to me how a Thorax without a plate is any weaker than any OTHER cruiser without a plate? It has 2025 HP compared to the average 2050 that other lvl 3 Cruisers have. Not to mention it does the majority of its damage through its drones and thus can easily use those 5 low slots for tanking while still having ridiculous damage output. The foundation of your arguement is built upon sand. Edit- And sorry Stuart bud, a medium smartbomb will take over 40 seconds to kill the drones. During that time the drones can do over 6800 points of damage to the target. And Jammers don't work if the Thorax has its drones attack you before you jam it. The problem with the Thorax is that it has way too many advantages for its own good. 8 Heavy drones and the rampant use of 1600mm plates are the reason. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 13:21:00 -
[1075]
There are plenty of posts that illustrate the oversized plate problem and several videos.. some have been brought up in this very thread.. but you just ignored them, in favour of trying to shout down other post... so follow your own siggys advice and do some reading to find them.
Maybe its because it has the lowest amount of slots then eany other tier 3 cruiser, could be that the guns intended for it are too cap hungry and intensive and it could be that since its supposed to be the ulitmate in close range cruisers, that it can't tank for anything. and so on.. so i ask you.. if the drone bay was reduced, would it be acceptable for the rax to get 2 extra slots, as that would bring it inline with the maller. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 13:21:00 -
[1076]
There are plenty of posts that illustrate the oversized plate problem and several videos.. some have been brought up in this very thread.. but you just ignored them, in favour of trying to shout down other post... so follow your own siggys advice and do some reading to find them.
Maybe its because it has the lowest amount of slots then eany other tier 3 cruiser, could be that the guns intended for it are too cap hungry and intensive and it could be that since its supposed to be the ulitmate in close range cruisers, that it can't tank for anything. and so on.. so i ask you.. if the drone bay was reduced, would it be acceptable for the rax to get 2 extra slots, as that would bring it inline with the maller. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 13:21:00 -
[1077]
There are plenty of posts that illustrate the oversized plate problem and several videos.. some have been brought up in this very thread.. but you just ignored them, in favour of trying to shout down other post... so follow your own siggys advice and do some reading to find them.
Maybe its because it has the lowest amount of slots then eany other tier 3 cruiser, could be that the guns intended for it are too cap hungry and intensive and it could be that since its supposed to be the ulitmate in close range cruisers, that it can't tank for anything. and so on.. so i ask you.. if the drone bay was reduced, would it be acceptable for the rax to get 2 extra slots, as that would bring it inline with the maller. |
Sariyah |
Posted - 2005.09.05 15:36:00 -
[1078]
so it can fit another rcu 2 to be able to fit it with med guns right? geez. - DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions presented anywhere in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of HUN Corp or Imperium unless otherwise specifically stated. |
Sariyah Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2005.09.05 15:36:00 -
[1079]
so it can fit another rcu 2 to be able to fit it with med guns right? geez. - DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions presented anywhere in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of HUN Corp or ERA unless otherwise specifically stated. |
Sariyah Gallente Aliastra |
Posted - 2005.09.05 15:36:00 -
[1080]
so it can fit another rcu 2 to be able to fit it with med guns right? geez. - DISCLAIMER: Any views or opinions presented anywhere in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of HUN Corp or ERA unless otherwise specifically stated. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 16:03:00 -
[1081] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 16:05:17
When you've got a hammer in the head, every problem looks like a nail. You decided that the problem is the plate and you see evidence of it everywhere, that doesn't make it true. You are the one ignoring every argument, every calculation, proving you wrong. My current Thorax setup: * 5 * 150mm railguns, * mwd, web, disruptor, * 1600mm plate t2, 2 energized nano t2, RCU t1, med rep t2 speed: 208m/s with navigation 5 & cheapo +3% speed implant armor: 5512hp with hull upgrades 5 My next thorax setup (without oversized plate): * 5 * 150mm railguns, * mwd, web, disruptor, * 2 * 800mm plate t2, 2 energized nano t2, med rep t2 speed: 187m/s with navigation 5 & cheapo +3% speed implant armor: 5517hp with hull upgrades 5 (like 21m/s are going to matter) Don't give me the bull "800mm is oversized too", the t2 version takes 230 pg and fit on a stabber without pg mod, while still fitting a AB2 and medium guns.
Selective reading 4tw. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty. In Rust We Trust |
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire |
Posted - 2005.09.05 16:03:00 -
[1082] Edited by: Crellion on 05/09/2005 16:04:55
Precisely.- +Its much more skill intensive than Maller IMO and almost as skill intensive as Moa (which IMPO powns the Rax 1v1 every time if you have uber skills in: Hybrids, Missles, EW, Fitting, Shield/Cap, Fitting AND Navigation) Look at "combat system" skills only: Maller: General gunnery + S Lasers II = 2 Rax: Genera G + S Hybrids II and Drones skills = 3 Moa: General G + S Hybrids (prereq.) + M Hybrids + Gen. Mislles + Heavy missles II + Drones skills + EW = 7 So at high skils (IMO) Moa > Rax > Maller At medium skills Rax > Maller > Moa At low skills Maller > Moa > Rax (rax with M rails and 3 light drones and no plate is a bit of a joke :) ) Train your a***s instead of complaining. There is great balance in this game. It can be made better but not like this LOL. *I have no real knowlledge of the Rupture's capabilities so I did not include it although I hear good things :) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 16:03:00 -
[1083] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 16:05:17
When you've got a hammer in the head, every problem looks like a nail. You decided that the problem is the plate and you see evidence of it everywhere, that doesn't make it true. You are the one ignoring every argument, every calculation, proving you wrong. My current Thorax setup: * 5 * 150mm railguns, * mwd, web, disruptor, * 1600mm plate t2, 2 energized nano t2, RCU t1, med rep t2 speed: 208m/s with navigation 5 & cheapo +3% speed implant armor: 5512hp with hull upgrades 5 My next thorax setup (without oversized plate): * 5 * 150mm railguns, * mwd, web, disruptor, * 2 * 800mm plate t2, 2 energized nano t2, med rep t2 speed: 187m/s with navigation 5 & cheapo +3% speed implant armor: 5517hp with hull upgrades 5 (like 21m/s are going to matter) Don't give me the bull "800mm is oversized too", the t2 version takes 230 pg and fit on a stabber without pg mod, while still fitting a AB2 and medium guns.
Selective reading 4tw. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty. In Rust We Trust |
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire |
Posted - 2005.09.05 16:03:00 -
[1084] Edited by: Crellion on 05/09/2005 16:04:55
Precisely.- +Its much more skill intensive than Maller IMO and almost as skill intensive as Moa (which IMPO powns the Rax 1v1 every time if you have uber skills in: Hybrids, Missles, EW, Fitting, Shield/Cap, Fitting AND Navigation) Look at "combat system" skills only: Maller: General gunnery + S Lasers II = 2 Rax: Genera G + S Hybrids II and Drones skills = 3 Moa: General G + S Hybrids (prereq.) + M Hybrids + Gen. Mislles + Heavy missles II + Drones skills + EW = 7 So at high skils (IMO) Moa > Rax > Maller At medium skills Rax > Maller > Moa At low skills Maller > Moa > Rax (rax with M rails and 3 light drones and no plate is a bit of a joke :) ) Train your a***s instead of complaining. There is great balance in this game. It can be made better but not like this LOL. *I have no real knowlledge of the Rupture's capabilities so I did not include it although I hear good things :) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 17:41:00 -
[1085] Edited by: Ravenge on 05/09/2005 17:55:17
Sorry try again... 800mm is still oversized plates no matter what you try and say.. seems that your the hard headed one who can't admit he's wrong on the whole plate issue. 1600mm and 800mm are battleship plates... now say it with me.. battleship plates.50mm and 100mm are frigate plates. 200mm and 400mm are cruiser plates 800mm and 1600mm are battleship plates .. see its not bull and its easy to understand. And what you fail to see that getting gallente cruiser 3 alone doesn't automatically allow you to control 8 drones pump out large dps just from them while fitting uber plating with running a massive tank. but you just can't open your eyes and see passed the drones ...try it, and maybe you might just learn something. Also you might.. (well anything is possible.) to suddenly realise that the rax is beatable and with out its plating its not that uber, and that the problem has always been the oversized plates.. but hey, if the drone bays get reduced.. i hope to get my 2 extra slots in return.. after thats a very fair trade off. a low slot and a med slot would be just right. That way everyone is happy.. the drone bay gets reduced and those crying nerf get what they want.. and the extra slots brings the rax inline with maller and the other tier 3 cruisers. and us rax pilots get something.. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.05 17:41:00 -
[1086] Edited by: Ravenge on 05/09/2005 17:55:17
Sorry try again... 800mm is still oversized plates no matter what you try and say.. seems that your the hard headed one who can't admit he's wrong on the whole plate issue. 1600mm and 800mm are battleship plates... now say it with me.. battleship plates.50mm and 100mm are frigate plates. 200mm and 400mm are cruiser plates 800mm and 1600mm are battleship plates .. see its not bull and its easy to understand. And what you fail to see that getting gallente cruiser 3 alone doesn't automatically allow you to control 8 drones pump out large dps just from them while fitting uber plating with running a massive tank. but you just can't open your eyes and see passed the drones ...try it, and maybe you might just learn something. Also you might.. (well anything is possible.) to suddenly realise that the rax is beatable and with out its plating its not that uber, and that the problem has always been the oversized plates.. but hey, if the drone bays get reduced.. i hope to get my 2 extra slots in return.. after thats a very fair trade off. a low slot and a med slot would be just right. That way everyone is happy.. the drone bay gets reduced and those crying nerf get what they want.. and the extra slots brings the rax inline with maller and the other tier 3 cruisers. and us rax pilots get something.. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 18:44:00 -
[1087] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 18:49:00
Since i grow tired of the bull you make up on the move without anything to back it up, here are numbers for you: Medium armor rep t2: 173 mw & 23 tf 720mm artillery t2: 275 mw & 32 tf 250mm railgun t2: 236 mw & 44 tf Heavy pulse laser t2: 231 mw & 35 tf Medium capacitor booster t2: 150 mw & 25 tf Large capacitor battery: 250 mw & 100 tf Medium nosferatu t2: 200 mw & 25 tf Medium energy neutralizer t2: 225 mw & 20 tf 10nm MWD t2: 165 mw & 50 tf 800mm steel plate t2: 230 mw & 28 tf 400mm steel plate t2: 35 mw & 23 tf One is the low-end cruiser plate, the other is the high-end cruiser plate. As i said, the fact that i can fit a 800mm plate t2, a t2 propulsion mod, t2 medium weapons (4 medium AC and 2 cruiser sized missile launchers) without power mod on one of the most pg challenged t1 cruiser out there (stabber) should be the evidence of the plate being a cruiser plate. You can also fit a 800mm plate t2 and med electrons t2 and a mwd t2 with only one power upgrade on a thorax. It's getting you nowhere to propose to change all the game so that the drone bay of the thorax makes sense. Besides, removing plates is the worst thing that could happen to the thorax. Why you want to do that is something i don't understand. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 18:44:00 -
[1088] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 05/09/2005 18:49:00
Since i grow tired of the bull you make up on the move without anything to back it up, here are numbers for you: Medium armor rep t2: 173 mw & 23 tf 720mm artillery t2: 275 mw & 32 tf 250mm railgun t2: 236 mw & 44 tf Heavy pulse laser t2: 231 mw & 35 tf Medium capacitor booster t2: 150 mw & 25 tf Large capacitor battery: 250 mw & 100 tf Medium nosferatu t2: 200 mw & 25 tf Medium energy neutralizer t2: 225 mw & 20 tf 10nm MWD t2: 165 mw & 50 tf 800mm steel plate t2: 230 mw & 28 tf 400mm steel plate t2: 35 mw & 23 tf One is the low-end cruiser plate, the other is the high-end cruiser plate. As i said, the fact that i can fit a 800mm plate t2, a t2 propulsion mod, t2 medium weapons (4 medium AC and 2 cruiser sized missile launchers) without power mod on one of the most pg challenged t1 cruiser out there (stabber) should be the evidence of the plate being a cruiser plate. You can also fit a 800mm plate t2 and med electrons t2 and a mwd t2 with only one power upgrade on a thorax. It's getting you nowhere to propose to change all the game so that the drone bay of the thorax makes sense. Besides, removing plates is the worst thing that could happen to the thorax. Why you want to do that is something i don't understand. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
HippoKing Caldari The I-Win Button |
Posted - 2005.09.05 18:57:00 -
[1089] 19 pages! must be a hot issue. i'm not even gonna get involved... |
HippoKing Caldari The I-Win Button |
Posted - 2005.09.05 18:57:00 -
[1090] 19 pages! must be a hot issue. i'm not even gonna get involved... |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 19:04:00 -
[1091]
Since it's bull day today, i'll come up with a similar argument to prove that the typhoon is the high end, high skill battleship that dooms them all, especially fitted with a large t2 gun of each race. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.05 19:04:00 -
[1092]
Since it's bull day today, i'll come up with a similar argument to prove that the typhoon is the high end, high skill battleship that dooms them all, especially fitted with a large t2 gun of each race. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 BIRDofPREY Minmatar KDM Corp Firmus Ixion |
Posted - 2005.09.05 22:55:00 -
[1093] How come, about every six to eight months or so, someone starts a thread complaining about something being over powered and coming up with self imposed arguements about one aspect or the other. The T-rax is a good ship, and has pretty much been the way it is now since beta. That being said, who imposed the idea that Heavy Drones are "Battleship" size weapons? They also have been pretty much the way they are since beta (except for a nerf some time back, over damage). I seem to remember a Moa pilot whining for weeks about the Rax. Comparisions were made in tactics and load out and it was agreed, if the Moa kept it's distance, the Rax was toast. But if the Rax got on top of the Moa, the Moa was out of it's league. I've flown T-rax' now and then. Had one ripped to shreads by some chap in a Amarr ship of some sort. Opened me up and ate my lunch before I could get the lock and drop the drones. Then there was the frigate that simple out ran my Ogres and spammed me with tech II arty, till I had to run and leave my drones behind. Sorry, but in two in a half years, I've not found the "I win" button. And I have it on good authority that the Rax is now where near it either. Happy Hunting |
BIRDofPREY Minmatar KDM Corp Firmus Ixion |
Posted - 2005.09.05 22:55:00 -
[1094] How come, about every six to eight months or so, someone starts a thread complaining about something being over powered and coming up with self imposed arguements about one aspect or the other. The T-rax is a good ship, and has pretty much been the way it is now since beta. That being said, who imposed the idea that Heavy Drones are "Battleship" size weapons? They also have been pretty much the way they are since beta (except for a nerf some time back, over damage). I seem to remember a Moa pilot whining for weeks about the Rax. Comparisions were made in tactics and load out and it was agreed, if the Moa kept it's distance, the Rax was toast. But if the Rax got on top of the Moa, the Moa was out of it's league. I've flown T-rax' now and then. Had one ripped to shreads by some chap in a Amarr ship of some sort. Opened me up and ate my lunch before I could get the lock and drop the drones. Then there was the frigate that simple out ran my Ogres and spammed me with tech II arty, till I had to run and leave my drones behind. Sorry, but in two in a half years, I've not found the "I win" button. And I have it on good authority that the Rax is now where near it either. Happy Hunting |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:09:00 -
[1095] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:11:06 Nobody is saying its a win button we're saying it has way too many advantages and too few disadvantages. It can fit out with a tank while still doing twice the DPS of other cruisers just through its drones. No other Tier 1 cruiser can manage that. 100m3 drone bay simply puts the Rax more in place when it comes to advantages versus disadvantages. 169 free DPS with no fitting penalty is pretty stupid. 85 free DPS is more reasonable. That's still the damage output of a typical T1 Cruiser. In addition to that the pilot can still choose to have over 5k HP with a plate and add 95 more DPS through light Neutron blasters or over 150 DPS with heavy blasters and damage mods. Thats a more reasonable tradeoff. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:09:00 -
[1096] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:11:06 Nobody is saying its a win button we're saying it has way too many advantages and too few disadvantages. It can fit out with a tank while still doing twice the DPS of other cruisers just through its drones. No other Tier 1 cruiser can manage that. 100m3 drone bay simply puts the Rax more in place when it comes to advantages versus disadvantages. 169 free DPS with no fitting penalty is pretty stupid. 85 free DPS is more reasonable. That's still the damage output of a typical T1 Cruiser. In addition to that the pilot can still choose to have over 5k HP with a plate and add 95 more DPS through light Neutron blasters or over 150 DPS with heavy blasters and damage mods. Thats a more reasonable tradeoff. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
 R'adeh Gekidoku |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:14:00 -
[1097] I demand that this thread gets closed, NOW! And dare anyone nerf my beloved Rax'!! __________________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp. Please show mercy Drakma! |
R'adeh Gekidoku |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:14:00 -
[1098] I demand that this thread gets closed, NOW! And dare anyone nerf my beloved Rax'!! __________________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp. Please show mercy Drakma! |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:15:00 -
[1099] I dare. Whatcha gonna do about it? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:15:00 -
[1100] I dare. Whatcha gonna do about it? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:22:00 -
[1101]
169 free dps... come now, stop making things up... to get that 169 dps.. you need heavy drones skill at lvl 4, drones skill and level 5 and drone interfacing at lvl 3... Flying a rax doesn't give you this instant damage you need to train those skills up first. Plus if the oversized plate issue gets sorted out, you won't have to worry too much about the big bad thorax. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:22:00 -
[1102]
169 free dps... come now, stop making things up... to get that 169 dps.. you need heavy drones skill at lvl 4, drones skill and level 5 and drone interfacing at lvl 3... Flying a rax doesn't give you this instant damage you need to train those skills up first. Plus if the oversized plate issue gets sorted out, you won't have to worry too much about the big bad thorax. |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:27:00 -
[1103]
Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:27:00 -
[1104]
Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:31:00 -
[1105]
Tut tut... not following the advice in your own signature again. Remember read first then write.. This is why you miss out on so many little snippits of information and you just can't get over the fact that 800mm is battleship plate now can you? So no matter how much you call it bull, the fact of the matter is its the low end battleship plate now deal with it. I guess you will never understand, that the rax isn't as uber as you keep going on about. But how about commenting on this.. if the rax gets its drone bay nerfed.. would it be fair to say that it gets two extra slots, to bring it inline with the other tier 3 cruisers? (to recap two of them have 14 slots and 1 has 15 .. the rax only has 13, by giving it 2 slots it will fill the role of the missing 15 slot tier 3 cruiser.) |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:31:00 -
[1106]
Tut tut... not following the advice in your own signature again. Remember read first then write.. This is why you miss out on so many little snippits of information and you just can't get over the fact that 800mm is battleship plate now can you? So no matter how much you call it bull, the fact of the matter is its the low end battleship plate now deal with it. I guess you will never understand, that the rax isn't as uber as you keep going on about. But how about commenting on this.. if the rax gets its drone bay nerfed.. would it be fair to say that it gets two extra slots, to bring it inline with the other tier 3 cruisers? (to recap two of them have 14 slots and 1 has 15 .. the rax only has 13, by giving it 2 slots it will fill the role of the missing 15 slot tier 3 cruiser.) |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:33:00 -
[1107]
Facts, figures > opinions. My final words to you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:33:00 -
[1108]
Facts, figures > opinions. My final words to you. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:35:00 -
[1109]
Keep going as your uber set up needs a little more then drone skills.. you can't fit 1600 mm plate and active hardeners with just lvl 3 gallente cruiser and drone skills. your looking at a couple of months training to get the uber tanking and dps you keep spouting about.. maybe a bit less if you train the learning skills... but you also have to add them to the training time. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:35:00 -
[1110]
Keep going as your uber set up needs a little more then drone skills.. you can't fit 1600 mm plate and active hardeners with just lvl 3 gallente cruiser and drone skills. your looking at a couple of months training to get the uber tanking and dps you keep spouting about.. maybe a bit less if you train the learning skills... but you also have to add them to the training time. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:41:00 -
[1111]
Well, with that i guess you can't answer me.. so well the reason for you crying on this post amounts to ... well nothing. Being as you never read a post fully, and pick at little bits to try and proved you failed point. I'm sorry if you couldn't understand simple things.. and well i really hoped that you did follow the supposed advice you tried to give in your siggy.. but i guess you couldn't even do that. Ahhh well, soon you will have something else to cry about.. some other ship will to overpowered and you will jump on that bradishing your nerf this banner. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:41:00 -
[1112]
Well, with that i guess you can't answer me.. so well the reason for you crying on this post amounts to ... well nothing. Being as you never read a post fully, and pick at little bits to try and proved you failed point. I'm sorry if you couldn't understand simple things.. and well i really hoped that you did follow the supposed advice you tried to give in your siggy.. but i guess you couldn't even do that. Ahhh well, soon you will have something else to cry about.. some other ship will to overpowered and you will jump on that bradishing your nerf this banner. |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:41:00 -
[1113]
Well, with that i guess you can't answer me.. so well the reason for you crying on this post amounts to ... well nothing. Being as you never read a post fully, and pick at little bits to try and proved you failed point. I'm sorry if you couldn't understand simple things.. and well i really hoped that you did follow the supposed advice you tried to give in your siggy.. but i guess you couldn't even do that. Ahhh well, soon you will have something else to cry about.. some other ship will to overpowered and you will jump on that bradishing your nerf this banner. |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:46:00 -
[1114] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:47:49
Dude, you're being ridiculous. You need Hull Upgrades 3 and Mechanic I for a 1600mm plate. You don't even need medium turret skills because you're fitting frigate blasters. Heavy Drones 5 is 226k SP and Heavy Drones 4 is 226k SP. Drone Interfacing 3 is what, 45k SP? Heck, you can still pull 160 DPS out of a Thorax's drones using only Heavy Drones 3, so you can manage it all with about 320k SP in Drones. Compare that to the amount of work you need to put into Missile or Gunnery skills. Use your head man. With only a few hundred SP a Rax easily surpasses any other cruiser with the same amount of invested skills. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:46:00 -
[1115] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:47:49
Dude, you're being ridiculous. You need Hull Upgrades 3 and Mechanic I for a 1600mm plate. You don't even need medium turret skills because you're fitting frigate blasters. Heavy Drones 5 is 226k SP and Heavy Drones 4 is 226k SP. Drone Interfacing 3 is what, 45k SP? Heck, you can still pull 160 DPS out of a Thorax's drones using only Heavy Drones 3, so you can manage it all with about 320k SP in Drones. Compare that to the amount of work you need to put into Missile or Gunnery skills. Use your head man. With only a few hundred SP a Rax easily surpasses any other cruiser with the same amount of invested skills. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 01:46:00 -
[1116] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:47:49
Dude, you're being ridiculous. You need Hull Upgrades 3 and Mechanic I for a 1600mm plate. You don't even need medium turret skills because you're fitting frigate blasters. Heavy Drones 5 is 226k SP and Heavy Drones 4 is 226k SP. Drone Interfacing 3 is what, 45k SP? Heck, you can still pull 160 DPS out of a Thorax's drones using only Heavy Drones 3, so you can manage it all with about 320k SP in Drones. Compare that to the amount of work you need to put into Missile or Gunnery skills. Use your head man. With only a few hundred SP a Rax easily surpasses any other cruiser with the same amount of invested skills. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 02:09:00 -
[1117]
Oh i am using my head... shame you haven't noticed the skill ranks involved the training times and so on... let alone that a rax using the bare minumum skills is a dead.. 1600mm plate or not.. as it won't have the cap after mwd'ing to its target to run its tank. Oh and just one question... have you seen what 4 medium drones do to a heavy drone? quite suprising the results you get from them... |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 02:09:00 -
[1118]
Oh i am using my head... shame you haven't noticed the skill ranks involved the training times and so on... let alone that a rax using the bare minumum skills is a dead.. 1600mm plate or not.. as it won't have the cap after mwd'ing to its target to run its tank. Oh and just one question... have you seen what 4 medium drones do to a heavy drone? quite suprising the results you get from them... |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.09.06 02:09:00 -
[1119]
Oh i am using my head... shame you haven't noticed the skill ranks involved the training times and so on... let alone that a rax using the bare minumum skills is a dead.. 1600mm plate or not.. as it won't have the cap after mwd'ing to its target to run its tank. Oh and just one question... have you seen what 4 medium drones do to a heavy drone? quite suprising the results you get from them... |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.09.06 02:58:00 -
[1120] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 03:09:08 ... 1 skillpoint takes the same amount of time to train no matter what the rank. Its attributes alone that dictate how long a single skillpoint takes to train. The rank is a multiplier for the amount of skillpoints a skill increases by per level. Please figure out how the system works before you go spouting bull. I'd like to see a bare skill point Maller, Rupture, or Moa do better than a bare skill point Thorax. No other cruiser can do so much DPS while tanking so well at under a million SP. If the Thorax takes so many skill points to use effectively, prove it to me. Also, please calculate the amount of time it takes for 4 medium drones to go through 8 heavy drones, and go ahead and tell me the amount of damage those 8 heavy drones will do to a target in that time. Once you've figured that out, get back to me. Edit- and btw... a 1600mm plate IS the plate-Rax's tank. 5k HP with 4 hardners running is no simple task to break through... especially when the Rax is doing 250 damage per second to you. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 02:58:00 -
[1121] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 03:09:08 ... 1 skillpoint takes the same amount of time to train no matter what the rank. Its attributes alone that dictate how long a single skillpoint takes to train. The rank is a multiplier for the amount of skillpoints a skill increases by per level. Please figure out how the system works before you go spouting bull. I'd like to see a bare skill point Maller, Rupture, or Moa do better than a bare skill point Thorax. No other cruiser can do so much DPS while tanking so well at under a million SP. If the Thorax takes so many skill points to use effectively, prove it to me. Also, please calculate the amount of time it takes for 4 medium drones to go through 8 heavy drones, and go ahead and tell me the amount of damage those 8 heavy drones will do to a target in that time. Once you've figured that out, get back to me. Edit- and btw... a 1600mm plate IS the plate-Rax's tank. 5k HP with 4 hardners running is no simple task to break through... especially when the Rax is doing 250 damage per second to you. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.09.06 02:58:00 -
[1122] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 03:09:08 ... 1 skillpoint takes the same amount of time to train no matter what the rank. Its attributes alone that dictate how long a single skillpoint takes to train. The rank is a multiplier for the amount of skillpoints a skill increases by per level. Please figure out how the system works before you go spouting bull. I'd like to see a bare skill point Maller, Rupture, or Moa do better than a bare skill point Thorax. No other cruiser can do so much DPS while tanking so well at under a million SP. If the Thorax takes so many skill points to use effectively, prove it to me. Also, please calculate the amount of time it takes for 4 medium drones to go through 8 heavy drones, and go ahead and tell me the amount of damage those 8 heavy drones will do to a target in that time. Once you've figured that out, get back to me. Edit- and btw... a 1600mm plate IS the plate-Rax's tank. 5k HP with 4 hardners running is no simple task to break through... especially when the Rax is doing 250 damage per second to you. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.09.06 04:17:00 -
[1123]
So...take away the plate. Then you can kill him as he's mwd-ing at you with a sig-radius the size of a station. Or die because you started the engagement too close. See, what's fun about the thorax if you take away the plate is that it's all about vying for position...it brings skill and trickery into the equation. If you start at 15km, thorax wins. Start at 30km, thorax loses. Start somewhere in between, and skillpoints come more into effect and it's a pulse-pounding few seconds as you find out who's got what. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.06 04:17:00 -
[1124]
So...take away the plate. Then you can kill him as he's mwd-ing at you with a sig-radius the size of a station. Or die because you started the engagement too close. See, what's fun about the thorax if you take away the plate is that it's all about vying for position...it brings skill and trickery into the equation. If you start at 15km, thorax wins. Start at 30km, thorax loses. Start somewhere in between, and skillpoints come more into effect and it's a pulse-pounding few seconds as you find out who's got what. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.06 04:17:00 -
[1125]
So...take away the plate. Then you can kill him as he's mwd-ing at you with a sig-radius the size of a station. Or die because you started the engagement too close. See, what's fun about the thorax if you take away the plate is that it's all about vying for position...it brings skill and trickery into the equation. If you start at 15km, thorax wins. Start at 30km, thorax loses. Start somewhere in between, and skillpoints come more into effect and it's a pulse-pounding few seconds as you find out who's got what. |
Sorja |
Posted - 2005.09.06 05:04:00 -
[1126]
Yep, correct. I could care less though, if someone could tell me 'train this and skill to x level and your Cerberus will be the killing machine it was advertised', heh... I wouldn't mind at all This of course, is totally irrelevant to the topic, I was surprized it was still alive after 20 pages and took the opportunity to wave hello at Electro  Kill mails |
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North |
Posted - 2005.09.06 05:04:00 -
[1127]
Yep, correct. I could care less though, if someone could tell me 'train this and skill to x level and your Cerberus will be the killing machine it was advertised', heh... I wouldn't mind at all This of course, is totally irrelevant to the topic, I was surprized it was still alive after 20 pages and took the opportunity to wave hello at Electro ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North |
Posted - 2005.09.06 05:04:00 -
[1128]
Yep, correct. I could care less though, if someone could tell me 'train this and skill to x level and your Cerberus will be the killing machine it was advertised', heh... I wouldn't mind at all This of course, is totally irrelevant to the topic, I was surprized it was still alive after 20 pages and took the opportunity to wave hello at Electro ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
 Azulya Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2006.12.30 23:53:00 -
[1129]QFT |
Azulya Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2006.12.30 23:53:00 -
[1130]QFT |
 Shinca |
Posted - 2006.12.30 23:59:00 -
[1131] necromancy is bad, mkay... it also makes you look stupid, since it seems you needed a year and a half to figure it out clones are people two Slovenian EVE forum |
 Fodderrr |
Posted - 2006.12.31 00:02:00 -
[1132]
Yes you can use mwd in combat, infact with the pg/cpu increase in some patch ages ago its been probably a better alternative. |
 Lady Kinla Dark Empire Fleet |
Posted - 2006.12.31 00:16:00 -
[1133] nuff said --------------------------- Aimez- "oh ****, this is empire......." Thanks for the loot, and next time you go out to pirate, carry more tech 2 plz =) |
 Reto The Last Resort |
Posted - 2006.12.31 00:23:00 -
[1134] Edited by: Reto on 31/12/2006 00:25:00 Edited by: Reto on 31/12/2006 00:23:50 [replying to a fake necroed thread] alright i just read w0lverines post and cba to read the rest. back to topic. cargobay size is imo fair. cap booster charges + intese ammo use for blasters make it clearly necessary in my eyes. imo all ammo using ships especially ac and blasters need a bay which can carry enuff for extended fights. especially since ccp decided to make combat last longer. and btw: caracal 450m¦ stabber 420m¦ zealot 450m¦ thorax 450m¦ all of those are ships which depend on intense use of ammo/missles or capbooster charges. i for my part think the rax is not overpowered here by any means. P.S. w0lverine u owe me 2 valuable minutes of my life replying to ur thread and explaining u the mysteries of logic... [/replying to a fake necroed thread]
|
 Azerrad InExile |
Posted - 2006.12.31 00:28:00 -
[1135] LOCK ALL TOPICS THAT HAVE BEEN INACTIVE FOR OVER 6 MONTHS |
 DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance |
Posted - 2006.12.31 00:34:00 -
[1136]
now THAT deserves a QFT Why babelfish is bad mmm k "which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside" |
 Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force |
Posted - 2006.12.31 01:28:00 -
[1137] Edited by: Akita T on 31/12/2006 01:29:30 Thorax once had 200m dronebay ? And you could launch more than 5 drones ? And that was only 18 months ago ? Oh, the humanity ! Oh well, IBTL _ My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
 Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2006.12.31 01:46:00 -
[1138]
I'm posting in a Necro Thread. It used to be 2,000m3 way back when  Tanking Survivability Calculator |
 Conuion Meow Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department  |
Posted - 2006.12.31 02:19:00 -
[1139] 2006.12.31 02:19:00 Modding Your Click II perfectly strikes Necroed Thread [FORUM], wrecking for LOCKED damage. |
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 38 :: [one page] | |
Originally by: Stuart85| Copyright © 2006-2025, Chribba - OMG Labs. All Rights Reserved. - perf 0,80s, ref 20250620/0959 EVE-Online™ and Eve imagery © CCP. bitcoin: 1CHRiBBArqpw5Yz7x5KS2RRtN5ubEn5gF |
| COPYRIGHT NOTICE EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website. |