Originally by: Tobiaz

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People trying to deny it either are flying one, or have never flew in PvP against one while themselves not in something REALLY stronger like a Raven, Deimos or something else costing 10 times more.

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Originally by: Radeberger

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If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts

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Originally by: Spaced Skunk

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..do you people realise that you need uber drone skills to use its drone bay anyway? Besides..I think the thorax is a very good alround ship, thats what you all complain at...you people want it to be specialised, like the moa (long range) etc.

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Originally by: Spaced Skunk

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..do you people realise that you need uber drone skills to use its drone bay anyway? Besides..I think the thorax is a very good alround ship, thats what you all complain at...you people want it to be specialised, like the moa (long range) etc.

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Originally by: Spaced Skunk

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..do you people realise that you need uber drone skills to use its drone bay anyway?

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Originally by: Spaced Skunk

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..do you people realise that you need uber drone skills to use its drone bay anyway?

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Originally by: Radeberger

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If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts

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Originally by: j0sephine

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"light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement
heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement

That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones."

Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and *still* do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser..

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Quote:

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"The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement."

How much damage *would* be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..?

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Quote:

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"As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage."

Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them...

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Originally by: j0sephine

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"light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement
heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement

That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones."

Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and *still* do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser..

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Quote:

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"The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement."

How much damage *would* be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..?

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Quote:

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"As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage."

Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them...

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51

Originally by: Imran

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Thorax really hasnt changed in almost 2 years, except the xtra bonus. Just beacuse you got owned by a 1600mm rax plate in your arma or somthing dosnt mean you should nerf it, grow up. The thorax is good as it it.

Boost every other crusier.

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I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it.

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51

Originally by: Imran

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Thorax really hasnt changed in almost 2 years, except the xtra bonus. Just beacuse you got owned by a 1600mm rax plate in your arma or somthing dosnt mean you should nerf it, grow up. The thorax is good as it it.

Boost every other crusier.

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I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it.

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Originally by: Ante

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Meanwhile... the drones are capable of doing dps equal to a HAC (Cerberus) which to me seems to be the problem. The drones are doing too much damage yet I'm for a reduction in the damage of drones not a reduction in the number of drones.

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Originally by: Ante

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Meanwhile... the drones are capable of doing dps equal to a HAC (Cerberus) which to me seems to be the problem. The drones are doing too much damage yet I'm for a reduction in the damage of drones not a reduction in the number of drones.

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Originally by: 656587

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The thorax is an example of why EvE is not as popular as WoW.

No ship smaller than a battleship should have a chance of killing one. Unless they form a large gang of small ships might they have a chance.

That is like saying a level 1 barbarian with a dirk can kill a level 2 barbarian with a heavy sword. Makes no sense. A battle ships is expensive (60-110million isk).

There are too many kinds of guns and cruisers/frigs etc..
Why cant EvE just have 1 of each ship and this will end all this confusion. 1 frig, 1 cruiser, 1 battle ship. And 1 size of gun for each. End of story. There are to many variables in eve to make it an enjoyable game compared to WoW and it is obvious who has the most customers.

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Originally by: 656587

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The thorax is an example of why EvE is not as popular as WoW.

No ship smaller than a battleship should have a chance of killing one. Unless they form a large gang of small ships might they have a chance.

That is like saying a level 1 barbarian with a dirk can kill a level 2 barbarian with a heavy sword. Makes no sense. A battle ships is expensive (60-110million isk).

There are too many kinds of guns and cruisers/frigs etc..
Why cant EvE just have 1 of each ship and this will end all this confusion. 1 frig, 1 cruiser, 1 battle ship. And 1 size of gun for each. End of story. There are to many variables in eve to make it an enjoyable game compared to WoW and it is obvious who has the most customers.

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• There is NO POINT AT ALL to compare light electrons to heavy electrons, because you can fit light NEUTRONS like its nothing, yet heavy ELECTRONS are the only real option to fit thorax with med blaster. And advantage of heavy electotron over light neutons is nowhere near 70%.


• Second point. Frig guns track about 8-10 times BETTER then med ones, now whoever say that 10 times of tracking is nothing is probably an old school raven pilot


• Third, traning for tech 2 frig guns is a week. Traning for med tech2 is a month on top of that. Moreover, you can put ANY tech2 frig guns on thorax with same result, but you have to use med hybrids tech2 to use the bonus


• Last one. There is no point of putting blasters because the problem with thorax is lack of weak spots. Then you have 8 heavy drones, full tank and frig long range guns you can do ANYTHING and do it good. What good will be heavy electonrons II (10 mil in gunnery on top) against 150mm rails if you will get webbed? Exactly. And the your main damage is not the guns, but drones, so you can trade the guns AND bonus to damage for 5x150 rails and be frig eater and bs killer.

• There is NO POINT AT ALL to compare light electrons to heavy electrons, because you can fit light NEUTRONS like its nothing, yet heavy ELECTRONS are the only real option to fit thorax with med blaster. And advantage of heavy electotron over light neutons is nowhere near 70%.


• Second point. Frig guns track about 8-10 times BETTER then med ones, now whoever say that 10 times of tracking is nothing is probably an old school raven pilot


• Third, traning for tech 2 frig guns is a week. Traning for med tech2 is a month on top of that. Moreover, you can put ANY tech2 frig guns on thorax with same result, but you have to use med hybrids tech2 to use the bonus


• Last one. There is no point of putting blasters because the problem with thorax is lack of weak spots. Then you have 8 heavy drones, full tank and frig long range guns you can do ANYTHING and do it good. What good will be heavy electonrons II (10 mil in gunnery on top) against 150mm rails if you will get webbed? Exactly. And the your main damage is not the guns, but drones, so you can trade the guns AND bonus to damage for 5x150 rails and be frig eater and bs killer.

Originally by: 656587

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The thorax is an example of why EvE is not as popular as WoW.

No ship smaller than a battleship should have a chance of killing one. Unless they form a large gang of small ships might they have a chance.

That is like saying a level 1 barbarian with a dirk can kill a level 2 barbarian with a heavy sword. Makes no sense. A battle ships is expensive (60-110million isk).

There are too many kinds of guns and cruisers/frigs etc..
Why cant EvE just have 1 of each ship and this will end all this confusion. 1 frig, 1 cruiser, 1 battle ship. And 1 size of gun for each. End of story. There are to many variables in eve to make it an enjoyable game compared to WoW and it is obvious who has the most customers.

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Originally by: 656587

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The thorax is an example of why EvE is not as popular as WoW.

No ship smaller than a battleship should have a chance of killing one. Unless they form a large gang of small ships might they have a chance.

That is like saying a level 1 barbarian with a dirk can kill a level 2 barbarian with a heavy sword. Makes no sense. A battle ships is expensive (60-110million isk).

There are too many kinds of guns and cruisers/frigs etc..
Why cant EvE just have 1 of each ship and this will end all this confusion. 1 frig, 1 cruiser, 1 battle ship. And 1 size of gun for each. End of story. There are to many variables in eve to make it an enjoyable game compared to WoW and it is obvious who has the most customers.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Originally by: Ante

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Meanwhile... the drones are capable of doing dps equal to a HAC (Cerberus) which to me seems to be the problem. The drones are doing too much damage yet I'm for a reduction in the damage of drones not a reduction in the number of drones.

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I am not playing dumb, but i do not understand why. Reduction of damage, but no reduction of number, would be just downgrading the size of drones: 10 mediums instead of 8 heavies ? This is exactly, more drones, but less damage. Mediums are faster, track better, are more difficult to destroy with big guns/missiles.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

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Originally by: j0sephine

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"IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ?"

... "very average dps" compared to what other medium weapon? o.O;

come on, this is really playing down things bit too much... the 'smallest' medium blasters outdamage the longer range weapons by some 40-60% ... and do 2-2.5x the damage of medium missiles. About the only thing that comes close to them in performance is the autocannons. Which is overall okay, means the blastership can be taken quite a bit in the armour on the approach and still stands the fair chance of winning if it gets the other guy within fire range by then... that's with guns alone. Drones added on top of it make it so one sided it's not even funny. o.O;

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Quote:

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(if there's one thing that's pretty odd in overall picture, it's the fitting requirements of autocannons across the board... pretty light in comparison to blasters, use way less cap if at all, can mix damage types and the performance is pretty close to what the blasters can do. I suppose one could argue blasters should get tiny grid reduction while autocannons might use very tiny increase of the grid they need. I said 'tiny', mind you -.o

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Originally by: Ante

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Meanwhile... the drones are capable of doing dps equal to a HAC (Cerberus) which to me seems to be the problem. The drones are doing too much damage yet I'm for a reduction in the damage of drones not a reduction in the number of drones.

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I am not playing dumb, but i do not understand why. Reduction of damage, but no reduction of number, would be just downgrading the size of drones: 10 mediums instead of 8 heavies ? This is exactly, more drones, but less damage. Mediums are faster, track better, are more difficult to destroy with big guns/missiles.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

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Originally by: j0sephine

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"IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ?"

... "very average dps" compared to what other medium weapon? o.O;

come on, this is really playing down things bit too much... the 'smallest' medium blasters outdamage the longer range weapons by some 40-60% ... and do 2-2.5x the damage of medium missiles. About the only thing that comes close to them in performance is the autocannons. Which is overall okay, means the blastership can be taken quite a bit in the armour on the approach and still stands the fair chance of winning if it gets the other guy within fire range by then... that's with guns alone. Drones added on top of it make it so one sided it's not even funny. o.O;

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Quote:

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(if there's one thing that's pretty odd in overall picture, it's the fitting requirements of autocannons across the board... pretty light in comparison to blasters, use way less cap if at all, can mix damage types and the performance is pretty close to what the blasters can do. I suppose one could argue blasters should get tiny grid reduction while autocannons might use very tiny increase of the grid they need. I said 'tiny', mind you -.o

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Originally by: Imran

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51

Originally by: Imran

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Thorax really hasnt changed in almost 2 years, except the xtra bonus. Just beacuse you got owned by a 1600mm rax plate in your arma or somthing dosnt mean you should nerf it, grow up. The thorax is good as it it.

Boost every other crusier.

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I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it.

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Thanks for your life story

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Originally by: Imran

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51

Originally by: Imran

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Thorax really hasnt changed in almost 2 years, except the xtra bonus. Just beacuse you got owned by a 1600mm rax plate in your arma or somthing dosnt mean you should nerf it, grow up. The thorax is good as it it.

Boost every other crusier.

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I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it.

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Thanks for your life story

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1. The 1600mm plates have to induce more of a penalty in cruiser-class ships (this would also address the issue with the Zealot)
   


2. The Thorax should have her drone bay decreased to 100m3
   


3. The Vexor should have her drone bay increased to at least the level of the Thorax in her current state
   

1. The 1600mm plates have to induce more of a penalty in cruiser-class ships (this would also address the issue with the Zealot)
   


2. The Thorax should have her drone bay decreased to 100m3
   


3. The Vexor should have her drone bay increased to at least the level of the Thorax in her current state
   

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 13:22:25

Originally by: AlleyKat

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The Thorax is a skills-heavy ship, FGS don't nerf the drone bay!

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I have an alt that in 3 days time could fly a plate rax without drones. Within the week he could have decent small gunnery skills. With just basic drone skills this Thorax and 150k SP ( if that ) is capable of holding its own vs. a dedicated cruiser pilot witn 3+mil SP of another race. Ballance? No. The thorax gets better exponentially... other cruisers don't have the ability.

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Originally by: Dash Ripcock

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Thorax Electron II setup:

High

4 * Heavy Electron Blaster IIs
1 * M Nosferatu I (Named)

Medium

1 * 10Mn MWD I (Named)
1 * Webifer (X5 or better)
1 * Warp Scrambler (7.5km)

Low

1 * RCU II

3 * Hardeners (Exp/Therm/Kin) OR
3 * Energized Adaptive Nano II
1 * M Armour Rep II

Drones

4 * Praetors (EM)
4 * Bezerkers (Explosive)

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