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 DrunkenOne Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition    |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:41:00 -
[241]
I cant even fly one effectively  .Time to train up on sisi! Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
 Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:44:00 -
[242] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51
I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
 Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:44:00 -
[243] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 24/08/2005 01:44:51
I have never lost a PvP fight in EVE where it was cruiser+ combat. Sorry to break it to you. I pwned blackbirds back in 2003 when BBs shot Torpedo's at you. You know what won the fights for me... 8 ogres. I love the Thorax. I remember trading in my vexor and shelling out 2 extra pills for it back when I mined EVERYTHING I could fly in an IMICUS. Don't think we are asking for something too much. EVE has changed. The thorax hasn't. They have wanted it too but people wanted it to stay the same. Now there are some bloody obvious gaps because of it. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:45:00 -
[244]
This thread shows exactly how increasing the damage of all cruisers in a similar way than the thorax is not going to make them more survivable overall, which is exactly the current problem. Thanks for not reading the thread, totally missing the point, coming with "common misconceptions" and making it completely obvious. You sir, deserve all my gratitude for doing this is such a quick and efficient, yet "class" manner  .Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
 Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:45:00 -
[245]
This thread shows exactly how increasing the damage of all cruisers in a similar way than the thorax is not going to make them more survivable overall, which is exactly the current problem. Thanks for not reading the thread, totally missing the point, coming with "common misconceptions" and making it completely obvious. You sir, deserve all my gratitude for doing this is such a quick and efficient, yet "class" manner .Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 BlackDog Rackh'am |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:20:00 -
[246] This couldn't have come at a better time.A member of my alliance just attacked an apoc,a caracal and a raven in his thorax.He killed the caracal and the apoc before the raven popped him.I agree that some personal skill and luck is always involed,but please do that in any other tier3 cruiser,or better yet a HAC and i will agree it's balanced.Otherwise i want a 120m3 drone bay on the minnie cruisers and HAC's as well. Apoc Kill Caracal Kill Thorax Kill - Please take note of the fittings |
 BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:20:00 -
[247] This couldn't have come at a better time.A member of my alliance just attacked an apoc,a caracal and a raven in his thorax.He killed the caracal and the apoc before the raven popped him.I agree that some personal skill and luck is always involed,but please do that in any other tier3 cruiser,or better yet a HAC and i will agree it's balanced.Otherwise i want a 120m3 drone bay on the minnie cruisers and HAC's as well. Apoc Kill Caracal Kill Thorax Kill - Please take note of the fittings |
 Istvaan Shogaatsu |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:30:00 -
[248] BlackDog wins the thread. I agree, by the way - the Rax is disproportionately deadly compared to other tier 3 cruisers, and the solution probably lies in boosting them instead of nerfing it. |
 Istvaan Shogaatsu Guiding Hand Social Club |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:30:00 -
[249] BlackDog wins the thread. I agree, by the way - the Rax is disproportionately deadly compared to other tier 3 cruisers, and the solution probably lies in boosting them instead of nerfing it. |
Fierce Deity |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:36:00 -
[250] Naughty i thought you were leaving this topic to play high and mighty 3 times over, and 2 pages back? Your still posting, just in case you didn't realise.  You can kill a Rax easy, there is many ways to do it with many other ships. Your argument is that you have to gimp yourself against other ships in order to kill a rax? Well i'm sorry you have to (god forbid) use a different set up to kill a different kind of ship. I was under a huge misconception that a ship that is set up different from another ship of the same class was diversity (diversity=different no?). Oh how wrong i was, you want to nerf all other ships so you don't have to go back to your hanger once and a while and change your set up. Ok, why don't we just do away with all the mods and have all ships have built in set ups, then your prolem would be solved. All cruisers tbo suck, they are not usful in a fleet engagment, unless your in a bb and wanna jam some targets maybe. Now we have a cruiser that isn't completely usless, and you wanna wack the cruiser back down to the level of the rest so they are all usless again. If that is your idea of balanced, then yes please nerf the thorax to make all cruisers equally usless. Or, and i'm going on a limb here, we could make all the cruisers on par with the rax and they would all be usfull. Hmm, usless, or usfull? it's a toughy i know. And for god's sakes wat is this bs sized gun that the thorax can mount? A 425 rail? mega electron blaster? what? because you keep referring the the thorax mounting a bs sized gun then why shouldn't a maller fit mega pulses? If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect... ------FD------ |
 Fierce Deity Gallente Hera Star |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:36:00 -
[251] Naughty i thought you were leaving this topic to play high and mighty 3 times over, and 2 pages back? Your still posting, just in case you didn't realise. You can kill a Rax easy, there is many ways to do it with many other ships. Your argument is that you have to gimp yourself against other ships in order to kill a rax? Well i'm sorry you have to (god forbid) use a different set up to kill a different kind of ship. I was under a huge misconception that a ship that is set up different from another ship of the same class was diversity (diversity=different no?). Oh how wrong i was, you want to nerf all other ships so you don't have to go back to your hanger once and a while and change your set up. Ok, why don't we just do away with all the mods and have all ships have built in set ups, then your prolem would be solved. All cruisers tbo suck, they are not usful in a fleet engagment, unless your in a bb and wanna jam some targets maybe. Now we have a cruiser that isn't completely usless, and you wanna wack the cruiser back down to the level of the rest so they are all usless again. If that is your idea of balanced, then yes please nerf the thorax to make all cruisers equally usless. Or, and i'm going on a limb here, we could make all the cruisers on par with the rax and they would all be usfull. Hmm, usless, or usfull? it's a toughy i know. And for god's sakes wat is this bs sized gun that the thorax can mount? A 425 rail? mega electron blaster? what? because you keep referring the the thorax mounting a bs sized gun then why shouldn't a maller fit mega pulses? If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect... ------FD------ Recruiting: Hera Star |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:53:00 -
[252] I don't use drones so this may seem fairly outrageous however I'd like you all to take a step back and take a look at this suggestion: 8 heavy drones can pump out 200 dps - this was shown earlier in the thread. A Cerberus (for those that have looked into it) will do on average, with good skills, ~250 dps. It seems to me a bit silly that drones can pump out comparative damage to any ship much less a heavy assault cruiser. Perhaps rather than nerfing the thorax, perhaps nerf drones? Their dps seems waaaay to high to somebody that doesn't use drones. |
 Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:53:00 -
[253] I don't use drones so this may seem fairly outrageous however I'd like you all to take a step back and take a look at this suggestion: 8 heavy drones can pump out 200 dps - this was shown earlier in the thread. A Cerberus (for those that have looked into it) will do on average, with good skills, ~250 dps. It seems to me a bit silly that drones can pump out comparative damage to any ship much less a heavy assault cruiser. Perhaps rather than nerfing the thorax, perhaps nerf drones? Their dps seems waaaay to high to somebody that doesn't use drones. |
Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:55:00 -
[254] A cerebus can pump out the same damage at an extreme range and be able to run when the going gets tought. The Thorax is only able to pump out that damage at extreme close range. I agree perfectly with the person two posts above me - that the thorax is what all cruisers should be, a capable combat vessel that is deadly in skilled hands. |
 Fidelis Deus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 02:55:00 -
[255] A cerebus can pump out the same damage at an extreme range and be able to run when the going gets tought. The Thorax is only able to pump out that damage at extreme close range. I agree perfectly with the person two posts above me - that the thorax is what all cruisers should be, a capable combat vessel that is deadly in skilled hands. |
 DarK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:00:00 -
[256]
But with the Thorax one setup kills all:) That's ok right? Heavy drones are BS sized weapons because drone bay sizes accross the ship classes are proportional to drone space usage. You don't have a frig with 100m3 drone bay do you? Why do BS have 150m3+? The Thorax is an anomaly, it has a BS sized drone bay when it should have a cruiser sized one. There are no penalties for fitting Heavy drones over medium, it's firepower with no tanking cost, it is totally independant of your setup, that's not right. Just because it doesn't specifically say that heavy drones are BS sized weapons, doesn't mean you shouldn't use your brain and some deductive reasoning. I swear people that can't grasp this concept are the same types that spill their McDonalds coffee on themselves and then sue McDonalds because the coffee burnt their leg as there was no warning lable stating the coffee was hot:S |
 DarK STK Scientific |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:00:00 -
[257]
But with the Thorax one setup kills all:) That's ok right? Heavy drones are BS sized weapons because drone bay sizes accross the ship classes are proportional to drone space usage. You don't have a frig with 100m3 drone bay do you? Why do BS have 150m3+? The Thorax is an anomaly, it has a BS sized drone bay when it should have a cruiser sized one. There are no penalties for fitting Heavy drones over medium, it's firepower with no tanking cost, it is totally independant of your setup, that's not right. Just because it doesn't specifically say that heavy drones are BS sized weapons, doesn't mean you shouldn't use your brain and some deductive reasoning. I swear people that can't grasp this concept are the same types that spill their McDonalds coffee on themselves and then sue McDonalds because the coffee burnt their leg as there was no warning lable stating the coffee was hot:S |
Ante |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:04:00 -
[258] Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 03:06:13
My point is that the Cerberus doesn't have another cruiser right next to it's target hammering it. It seems to me that if a pilot wanted to change their primary weapon (blasters) into secondary weapons, and their secondary weapon (drones) into primary weapons, there should be a penalty in efficiency not a huge increase. Something is definitely wrong there but I don't agree with changing the thorax. It is unique because of it's large drone bay and I'd prefer it stayed that way. EDIT: Added the quote to maintain order... the post above me wasn't there when I started typing this out  |
Ante DAB RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:04:00 -
[259] Edited by: Ante on 24/08/2005 03:06:13
My point is that the Cerberus doesn't have another cruiser right next to it's target hammering it. It seems to me that if a pilot wanted to change their primary weapon (blasters) into secondary weapons, and their secondary weapon (drones) into primary weapons, there should be a penalty in efficiency not a huge increase. Something is definitely wrong there but I don't agree with changing the thorax. It is unique because of it's large drone bay and I'd prefer it stayed that way. EDIT: Added the quote to maintain order... the post above me wasn't there when I started typing this out |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:05:00 -
[260] "If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect..." I'd guess it's because drones come in three sizes: small, medium and heavy. Just like ship weapons come in three sizes: small, medium and large. (the actual names are largely irrelevant... lasers are named 'medium' 'heavy' and 'mega' while missile launchers are named 'standard' 'heavy' and 'siege') |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:05:00 -
[261] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 03:07:55 "If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect..." I'd guess it's because drones come in three sizes: small, medium and heavy. Just like ship weapons come in three sizes: small, medium and large*. (the actual names are largely irrelevant... lasers are named 'medium' 'heavy' and 'mega' while missile launchers are named 'standard' 'heavy' and 'siege') *) there's obviously 'x-large' ones as well now, but then it's also been announced carriers as capital ships might get their own suitably larger drone size as well |
 ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:14:00 -
[262]
Much <3 for people who compare HACs to Cruisers.  Actually, a Thorax with a 1600mm plate fitted, resistance mods, has more than twice the hit points of a Cerberus, does the same damage with its DRONE BAY (170 DPS) as a Cerberus does with 2 BCS and a decent tank fitted, and does MORE DPS than a GANK Cerberus with maxed skills (EVERYTHING lvl 5) and Tech 2 Heavy Launchers firing Scourge (260 DPS) if you count the damage from its 5 light Neutron Blasters as well. AND the Thorax can do 170 of its DPS with any damage type. If a Cerb switches from Scourges, its damage output drops 25%. SO don't give me that load of bull. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
 ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:14:00 -
[263]
Much <3 for people who compare HACs to Cruisers. Actually, a Thorax with a 1600mm plate fitted, resistance mods, has more than twice the hit points of a Cerberus, does the same damage with its DRONE BAY (170 DPS) as a Cerberus does with 2 BCS and a decent tank fitted, and does MORE DPS than a GANK Cerberus with maxed skills (EVERYTHING lvl 5) and Tech 2 Heavy Launchers firing Scourge (260 DPS) if you count the damage from its 5 light Neutron Blasters as well. AND the Thorax can do 170 of its DPS with any damage type. If a Cerb switches from Scourges, its damage output drops 25%. SO don't give me that load of bull. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
 Fierce Deity |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:16:00 -
[264] To that "deductive-ness", As stated in the thorax write up, it is a drone ship, in the drone race. it has said this since the start of the game. Does a maller fire lasers fire lasers better them other races? of course, and gee i wonder why. Sure the vexor now (reapeat now for good measure) has a drone bonus. That being said maybe it needs more drone cargo room, but thats a completely different debate now isn't it. And i donno about you but when i was in english class and i ended a rebuttle in "i win because your the type who trips over a corded phone and sues the phone company" i would have been thrown out of the class and failed in my panel disscussion project. ------FD------ |
Fierce Deity Gallente Hera Star |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:16:00 -
[265] To that "deductive-ness", As stated in the thorax write up, it is a drone ship, in the drone race. it has said this since the start of the game. Does a maller fire lasers fire lasers better them other races? of course, and gee i wonder why. Sure the vexor now (reapeat now for good measure) has a drone bonus. That being said maybe it needs more drone cargo room, but thats a completely different debate now isn't it. And i donno about you but when i was in english class and i ended a rebuttle in "i win because your the type who trips over a corded phone and sues the phone company" i would have been thrown out of the class and failed in my panel disscussion project. ------FD------ Recruiting: Hera Star |
ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:24:00 -
[266] Hey! The Caracal is the Missile Cruiser for the Missile race! So of course it deserves 5 Cruise missile launchers, right? -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:24:00 -
[267] Hey! The Caracal is the Missile Cruiser for the Missile race! So of course it deserves 5 Cruise missile launchers, right? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:27:00 -
[268] Ok...lets nerf the thorax as its way overpowered.. But, in doing so can we nerf the following ships as well, to bring them in line. Maller - This ship can beat a thorax, so its clearly overpowered. All Interceptors - All of these are far to overpowered as they can beat all ships bigger then them in groups and in some cases solo. All Assault Frigs - By the logic found here in this thread, because AF's can beat cruisers solo they are far too over powered.. more so the gisti harpy.. (either nerf the ship or change it so it can't fit such an overpowered item.) The Arbitrator - It makes no sence that this ship has a drone bay of 150, being as the Gallente are supposed to be the main drone race. The Typhoon's drone bay - thats far too big. See its easy to spot what ships are overpowered if you go looking for it, it seems that its only in the last two months that someone lost his ship to a plated rax, and is crying about it. The problem isn't the drone bay its the oversized plate. (tbh, this cry for nerfing the thorax has come about since the missle patch.) Before that the rax was fine, not a peep of people wanting it nerfed.. oh and the rax did get a drone bay nerf after the cruisers got their second bonus.. iirc, it was from 2500 to 2000 (in todays figures 250 to 200) strange that back then it was deemed that the rax should be able to use at least 8 heavy drones.. Oh and one other smaller point, whatever increases you give to the thorax.. your going to have to give them to the deimos. (but hey... i don't mind about that.) (speeling punctuation and grammer.. may or may not be present in this post as its silly o'clock in the morning.) |
 Ravenge |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:27:00 -
[269] Ok...lets nerf the thorax as its way overpowered.. But, in doing so can we nerf the following ships as well, to bring them in line. Maller - This ship can beat a thorax, so its clearly overpowered. All Interceptors - All of these are far to overpowered as they can beat all ships bigger then them in groups and in some cases solo. All Assault Frigs - By the logic found here in this thread, because AF's can beat cruisers solo they are far too over powered.. more so the gisti harpy.. (either nerf the ship or change it so it can't fit such an overpowered item.) The Arbitrator - It makes no sence that this ship has a drone bay of 150, being as the Gallente are supposed to be the main drone race. The Typhoon's drone bay - thats far too big. See its easy to spot what ships are overpowered if you go looking for it, it seems that its only in the last two months that someone lost his ship to a plated rax, and is crying about it. The problem isn't the drone bay its the oversized plate. (tbh, this cry for nerfing the thorax has come about since the missle patch.) Before that the rax was fine, not a peep of people wanting it nerfed.. oh and the rax did get a drone bay nerf after the cruisers got their second bonus.. iirc, it was from 2500 to 2000 (in todays figures 250 to 200) strange that back then it was deemed that the rax should be able to use at least 8 heavy drones.. Oh and one other smaller point, whatever increases you give to the thorax.. your going to have to give them to the deimos. (but hey... i don't mind about that.) (speeling punctuation and grammer.. may or may not be present in this post as its silly o'clock in the morning.) |
 ELECTR0FREAK |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:35:00 -
[270] Theres a difference between ships that have been obviously designed and set up to kill another ship and ones who are IN GENERAL more powerful than the rest. So quit with your circular reasoning. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
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