EVE Search - Reduce Thoraxes bay to 100m3

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Noriath	Posted - 2005.08.22 17:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Meridius Nerf the dronebay and increase pg/cpu to better accomodate blasters. If you disagree, you're wrong. Can't disagree with that to be honest, the Thorax doesn't need a nerf, it needs a shift in stats from the uber-dronecruiser to the fast atack blastership that it should be. For one the MWD bonus has to be changed, either make it so that the bonus reduces the sig increase so that there is none by level 5, or swich it to something that helps the guns... PG/CPU is another issue, adjusting them up as dronebay goes down is important if you are going to put the thorax in line with the other ships... Fact is, that you can't just reduce the dronebay to balance the Thorax, since as a gunship it's just not on par with other tier 3 cruisers.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 17:47:00 - [32] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 17:50:07 Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 17:49:29 Originally by: Noriath Thoraxes do most of their damage with drones, you can't just take them away and say it would balance the game Why ? Besides, nobody said "remove all the drones", why can't it use "only" 10 medium drones on top of its guns ? That thoraxes do most of their damage with 8 heavy drones is exactly the problem, like it or not. Briefly, cruisers do have to fit a plate to me somehow survivable in "battleship & ganking" world. All tier 3 cruisers can do it. They can also fit the smallest cruiser guns on top of that. Maybe not the thorax, but that doesn't matter as the thorax, unlike other tier 3 cruisers, has 8 heavy drones to do the damage. That's more than half the battleships have, in case you wonder. Now, a cruiser with close range cruiser guns might aswell fit frigate guns (exception being the dual 180mm AC because of how they track and how projectile are balanced) as they don't lose significant damage output, but gain tracking. This is at the expense of range, but cruisers do not need range in the "battleship & ganking" world. Downgrading the guns they also gain significant survivability vs frigs and interceptors. What is then completely wrong is that, fitting all tier 3 cruisers to be the most versatile on the battlefield, you have: maller: more armor resistance and a medium nos, maybe two; rupture: bonus for the guns, though the bonus are needed because that's how projectiles are balanced. Or, fitted maller-like, a nos and no extra armor resistance. A tad more speed, though not much. moa: an extra mid slot, for EW only. thorax: a battleship weapon, 8 heavy drones, that still operates when the thorax is jammed and nossed. There is no trade-off most of the time, 8 heavy drones are much better than the extra armor resistance, the nos, or the extra mid slot. Of course, that's considering that the cruiser fit a battleship plate. Now, there is basically no reason not to do so. And i am not sure at all that the same argument doesn't hold even when not taking the plates into account, as even then there wouldn't be much point in not fitting frig guns on cruisers. They are just more versatile on the battlefield. And again there, frig guns + 8 heavy drones is too good. Originally by: Noriath especially if one of the Thoraxes ship bonuses is completly useless. Not more useless than the projectile bonuses that projectile "needs" to be on par, or the laughable "shield boost" bonus of the moa or even the range bonus. The maller armor resistance bonus is awesome, but that's about it.
Douglas McCracken	Posted - 2005.08.22 17:59:00 - [33] Agreed nerf the bay, yarrgh
Layrex	Posted - 2005.08.22 18:03:00 - [34] There is no getting round it, ccp WILL nerf the Rax eventually. It's just atm too capable for such a cheap ship. ------------------------------
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.22 18:07:00 - [35] "Thoraxes do most of their damage with drones, you can't just take them away and say it would balance the game (..)" Isn't that because people slap the battleship sized plate on the Thorax, fit tiny guns that the remaining grid allows, and rely on the drones to do the damage dealing part..? ^^;; (which is hardly surprising when you consider 8 heavy drones deal as much damage as 5 heavy ions with Thorax damage bonus... why do the ship that already can do devastating damage with guns, need that damage output doubled thanks to all drones? >>;;
Noriath	Posted - 2005.08.22 18:19:00 - [36] Yea, except fotr the fact that drones acctually get to deal damage, blasters have such ridiculously short range that they just aren't practical...
Kye Kenshin	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:06:00 - [37] If the rax has always been like this why has everyone decided to whine about it just now? Is it bitter missiles users? Also why does everyone want to deny new players a pvp capable ship thats affordable and easily trainable or do we want everyone to train skills for 6 months till they can use a T2 ships or bs? Anyway as long as you increase pg and cpu you can nerf the drone bay all you want otherwise the rax will become useless
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Noriath The Thorax already got nerfed badly with the changes to MWD that make it completly suicidal to use one in combat. Now one of its bonuses is completly useless because you can't use an MWD in combat anyways. I use MWD in combat, your point?
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:08:00 - [39] Originally by: DARTHxFREE if the rax is over powered,..why dont u train + buy + use one it dont take much. I do use one
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:09:00 - [40] Originally by: Noriath How can you tell the difference between something that's really overpowered and random nerf whiners? Quote: common sence and logic?
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Noriath Yea, except fotr the fact that drones acctually get to deal damage, blasters have such ridiculously short range that they just aren't practical... so, deimos, and blasterthron sux? and got to rely on drones?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Theta9 I fly thoraxes and i must say that most people i fight against with it are stupid like uber uber stupid. What does that say about your courage. Grow a pair m'kay. Swap the Vexor and Thorax Drone bay and be done with it. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:10:00 - [43] Originally by: Kye Kenshin If the rax has always been like this why has everyone decided to whine about it just now? Is it bitter missiles users? Also why does everyone want to deny new players a pvp capable ship thats affordable and easily trainable or do we want everyone to train skills for 6 months till they can use a T2 ships or bs? Anyway as long as you increase pg and cpu you can nerf the drone bay all you want otherwise the rax will become useless If you weren't a noob you'd know that this issue has been brought up many many times in the past ________________________________________________________
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:10:00 - [44] Originally by: Kye Kenshin If the rax has always been like this why has everyone decided to whine about it just now? this have been posted many times again and again, and CCP just ignor it
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Kye Kenshin If the rax has always been like this why has everyone decided to whine about it just now? Is it bitter missiles users? Also why does everyone want to deny new players a pvp capable ship thats affordable and easily trainable or do we want everyone to train skills for 6 months till they can use a T2 ships or bs? Anyway as long as you increase pg and cpu you can nerf the drone bay all you want otherwise the rax will become useless Sorry but you haven't been around. When Castor came out with the new gun changes the Thorax got reduced to 1000 drone bay ( which yes would be 100 now ) and so many people complained it never maid it past a few days or so as far as I can remember. So many carebears cried because they coudln't mine low sec anymore that the devs were FORCED to leave it alone. Now its the PvP nubtards that are carebearing along with the miners because its WAY overpowered. I know its hard to see a good ship get nerfed but its been LONG time coming and it really makes the Vexor obsolete and worthless in comparison. No other Cruiser class has this problem. Caracal's are as popular as MOA, Stabber are as used as Rupture, Omens and Maller have their own places in the sky. The vex is outclassed by the thorax because the Nublars decided that having a mini battleship was good for balance. Oh yeah it makes the brutix a worthless pile too. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
ThehappyOne	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:23:00 - [46] i think it is too powerful, i would be happy with 150m3 rax drone bay
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:34:00 - [47] Yes! We must make all battle be pure turret gankings! Death to diversity!
Death Merchant	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:38:00 - [48] The thorax actually works. Thank you all and have a blessed day.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:38:00 - [49] Originally by: W0lverine so, deimos, and blasterthron sux? and got to rely on drones? Blasterthron does suck. Yea it deals insane amount of damage when its set up for ganking, but the range is still so low that it's only really good when combat-warped by a covops. And Deimos with blasters doesn't suck because: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level 50% damage and 50% falloff increase. - Since a blasters range is mostly determined by its falloff... No suckage.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:39:00 - [50] Originally by: Harry Voyager Yes! We must make all battle be pure turret gankings! Death to diversity! When a ship is overpowered, everybody ends up flying it... so much for the diversity you pretend to be defending. I know, broad thinking is overrated. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:42:00 - [51] Originally by: Death Merchant The thorax actually works. Thank you all and have a blessed day. [sarcasm]So, you did notice too[/sarcasm] Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Sorja	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:48:00 - [52] I see more and more people flying Thoraxes, and it's good. I wish other cruisers could be as usefull though, and some are like the Maller or Stabber for example. Stop it with the nerfage madness already.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:59:00 - [53] should be reduced, the fact the deimos has a 100m3 drone bay proves to me that the thorax is imbalanced and should have its drone bay at least halved. the vexor is supposed to be the drone-oriented gallante cruiser not the thorax, if the thorax needs more fitting space for blasters, i see no problem with boosting that, as long as its drone bay is nerfed.. more drone space than most battleships is just silly imo. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:59:00 - [54] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/08/2005 20:02:52 Originally by: Sorja Stop it with the nerfage madness already. Okay. You're the one complaining that caldari HAC are sub par and not much on the pvp battlefield. You don't call for nerf, just for a boost of the HAC you can fly. It's easier to put 2 or 3 ships on par with 5 or 6 others than the other way around, isn't it ? Right, let's improve some cruisers stats across the board, hp or sig radius for instance, once this drone bay is downsized. How are other cruisers going to be more popular if one is just god-mode when compared to the others ? To improve other cruisers to the level of the thorax, they need to get 2 or 3 BS sized guns on top of their current stats... so much for balance. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.08.22 19:59:00 - [55] Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 22/08/2005 19:41:04 Originally by: W0lverine so, deimos, and blasterthron sux? and got to rely on drones? Blasterthron does suck. Yea it deals insane amount of damage when its set up for ganking, but the range is still so low that it's only really good when combat-warped by a covops. And Deimos with blasters doesn't suck because: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level 50% damage and 50% falloff increase. - Since a blasters range is mostly determined by its falloff... No suckage. Originally by: W0lverine I use MWD in combat, your point? So if someone fits reinforced bulkheads on their ship they become usefull too?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.22 20:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Harry Voyager Yes! We must make all battle be pure turret gankings! Death to diversity! Uhhh Vexor? ________________________________________________________
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.08.22 20:08:00 - [57] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 22/08/2005 20:08:55 My problem with the thorax is that the relationship between the "new" gallente combat ships doesn't really make much sense: Thorax, Deimos, Brutix, Megathron (progression of size and not firepower). By drone space: 200, 100, 100, 250 By another metric things go really wacky - the Megathron and the Deimos are FAR more able to carry out their intended role than the Thorax and Brutix - even considernig that one is a tech 2 cruiser and one is a Battleship, the Thorax and Brutix used as they were "intended" is basically complete suicide. Speaking of Gallente cruisers - does anyone use the Vexor? It seems (to me) to have all the fitting problems of the dominix without its drone firepower or med slot ewar and tanking capabilities. Proud member of Elite Academy.
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.08.22 21:17:00 - [58] MWD bonus is not useless in PVP and neither are blasters. Noriath, please shut up. Thanks Heres what i think should happen: Rax bay gets nerfed to 100m3. It gets 100 grid increase and 40 CPU base. This should allow it to squeeze on a rack of ions with a mwd and a light tank, the way a blaster boat should. Deimos should then get a slight increase in speed (by 10/15 m/s) OR a slight reduction in mass (10/15%). It would be nice to give it a little extra grid so it could fit a mix of neuts and ions but this may make it totally uber in the DPS stakes Brutix should get 150 extra grid and 50 extra CPU, allowing it to atleast fit a mix of electrons + ions with a mwd and a light tank. Its drone bay should be increased to 150m3 Vexor is a seriously meh, but if u give it 200m3 drone bay every1 will stick 8 hvys in it and it'll become the new rax, plus its bonus will be useless. with 150m3 it has to carry 15 mediums, which means with its rather crap fitting, its a bit of a **** ship Oh and the ishtar should be given 50 more grid and 30 more cpu so i can fit 3 nos, 2 guns and loads of EW. Thanks (joke btw) My Latest Vid: Linky
Ante	Posted - 2005.08.22 21:49:00 - [59] Originally by: Eyeshadow Rax bay gets nerfed to 100m3. It gets 100 grid increase and 40 CPU base. This should allow it to squeeze on a rack of ions with a mwd and a light tank, the way a blaster boat should. Deimos should then get a slight increase in speed (by 10/15 m/s) OR a slight reduction in mass (10/15%). It would be nice to give it a little extra grid so it could fit a mix of neuts and ions but this may make it totally uber in the DPS stakes You suggesting that the thorax be given more grid and cpu but not the deimos?
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.08.22 22:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Beyta Darrel He is caldari. Does he ask for a caracal nerf? No. He asks to nerf the thorax. Look, fit a smartbomb. Problem solved. Go home. erm i may be caldari by race, but im a gallente specialist when it comes to ships My Latest Vid: Linky

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