EVE Search - Reduce Thoraxes bay to 100m3

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Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 02:01:00 - [571] Originally by: Nomen Nescio So now suddenly 5x250mm rails and 5% damage bonus are somehow not enough to match the rupture 4x720s +5% rof +%5 damage? At 20km range? Thats kinda news for me. And its like what? 10% of a rupture firepower? 25% maybe? Because even HALF of drones dps will be around 100dps, so i think if you outgun poor rax with 200 dps TOTAL, then I have to have like 50 dps on my rails or something? A question of fitting. Thorax has to spend more low slots (and cpu) on grid upgrades (1000 grid consumption from the rupture weapons, 1125 from the thorax weapons, and the rupture has a 25 grid head start.) This leaves the rupture with low slots for damage mods and perhaps even cpu left over for tracking comps. It's bad mojo for a thorax to be sitting around trading blows with a rupture like that. Assuming no tank for either, the rupture can put out enough damage at that range to splash the thorax before the drones become a factor in the dps of the thorax. An mwd with at least moderate tank (explosive hardener and medium armor repairer) to counter the added damage that the mwd will bring is preferable to just sitting in optimal of a rupture.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 02:44:00 - [572] Man, you just can't admit the obvious. Thorax at any given fitting or situation has EXTRA weapon which doubles the dps It can fit 200mm and avoid fitting problems, it can fit just 150mm II and be very good AT EVERYING, any enemy any situation. What can your rupture do? Close range you can't track, long range bs will own you. Ceptors comes, you r dead, bs comes you dont have tank, pathetic HP, still low dps total. You dont have any real options to fit because you need your gun bonuses badly. Thorax can fit anything, med blasters, frig blasters, frig rails, frig med beams, med rails... noses for crying out loud. I mean you can fit dozens of setup and be good because you always have your main weapon - drones. Thorax outdamages deimos. Can you imagine rupture outdamaging munin AT ANY SETUP or skills? There is no point to argue about it. Thorax is not a vexor to count drones vs other cruiser guns, its a best gallente gunship, best slots, best fitting PLUS full set of bs weapon - heavy drones. If you still can't comprehend it, its like a rupture and a vexor with it under one command.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 02:44:00 - [573] Man, you just can't admit the obvious. Thorax at any given fitting or situation has EXTRA weapon which doubles the dps It can fit 200mm and avoid fitting problems, it can fit just 150mm II and be very good AT EVERYING, any enemy any situation. What can your rupture do? Close range you can't track, long range bs will own you. Ceptors comes, you r dead, bs comes you dont have tank, pathetic HP, still low dps total. You dont have any real options to fit because you need your gun bonuses badly. Thorax can fit anything, med blasters, frig blasters, frig rails, frig med beams, med rails... noses for crying out loud. I mean you can fit dozens of setup and be good because you always have your main weapon - drones. Thorax outdamages deimos. Can you imagine rupture outdamaging munin AT ANY SETUP or skills? There is no point to argue about it. Thorax is not a vexor to count drones vs other cruiser guns, its a best gallente gunship, best slots, best fitting PLUS full set of bs weapon - heavy drones. If you still can't comprehend it, its like a rupture and a vexor with it under one command.
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 02:57:00 - [574] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Man, you just can't admit the obvious. You've not convinced me that an un-plated thorax is overpowered, is all. I still maintain that it needs its killer DoT to make up for damage it's taking well before it can start dealing it. Of course, you don't have to convince me...you have to convince CCP. I'm just providing a counterpoint from a long-time thorax pilot. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 02:57:00 - [575] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Man, you just can't admit the obvious. You've not convinced me that an un-plated thorax is overpowered, is all. I still maintain that it needs its killer DoT to make up for damage it's taking well before it can start dealing it. Of course, you don't have to convince me...you have to convince CCP. I'm just providing a counterpoint from a long-time thorax pilot.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:11:00 - [576] If you can understand that 1+1 is > then 1, then i duno. Thorax has similar fitting, bonus to damage and slots as rupture. 250 mm rails are decent long range cruiser guns. They fit hard. but 720s fit hard 2. 200mm rails still have good range, use bonus, fit better, 650s same. 5 + 1 bonus is = as 4 + 2 bonuses. 720s norm damage is 0.36, 200mm norm is 0.41, which is outdamaging for 14% for rails. 5x200mm fit, have 18km opt, 10km fall = ability to engage at 20-30km. How is rupture ANY really that better? All depends on pilots and situation. BUT on top of that thorax has 170 dps, which can DOUBLE the damage at close range. Can rupture fit 8 autos for close range? No it cant. Thorax can go for full tank. Still having close range damage of comparable with rupture. Thorax can fit small guns and be able to have both close range damage and ability to blow up small target like nothing. Can rupture fit 4 vulcans and 4 280s at the same time? No. Can rupture fit ANYTHING but med projectiles? No, because wihtout 2 bonuses to guns its nothing. Can thorax fight and win with only drones - yes it can? What we will have EXTRA? Full slots and fitting for ANYTHING. You dont really get it, do you?
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:11:00 - [577] If you can understand that 1+1 is > then 1, then i duno. Thorax has similar fitting, bonus to damage and slots as rupture. 250 mm rails are decent long range cruiser guns. They fit hard. but 720s fit hard 2. 200mm rails still have good range, use bonus, fit better, 650s same. 5 + 1 bonus is = as 4 + 2 bonuses. 720s norm damage is 0.36, 200mm norm is 0.41, which is outdamaging for 14% for rails. 5x200mm fit, have 18km opt, 10km fall = ability to engage at 20-30km. How is rupture ANY really that better? All depends on pilots and situation. BUT on top of that thorax has 170 dps, which can DOUBLE the damage at close range. Can rupture fit 8 autos for close range? No it cant. Thorax can go for full tank. Still having close range damage of comparable with rupture. Thorax can fit small guns and be able to have both close range damage and ability to blow up small target like nothing. Can rupture fit 4 vulcans and 4 280s at the same time? No. Can rupture fit ANYTHING but med projectiles? No, because wihtout 2 bonuses to guns its nothing. Can thorax fight and win with only drones - yes it can? What we will have EXTRA? Full slots and fitting for ANYTHING. You dont really get it, do you?
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:29:00 - [578] There's a reason why, even before the plate issue, thorax pilots didn't go for distance setups. It's hard to fit, doesn't work as well as with other cruisers, and combat will almost invariably be decided before drones even become a factor. (Bigger guns and no tank = very brief combat...usually in favor of the long distance suited ships.) Why fight a style that denies you the advantage of your drones? That said, even an mwd setup does take considerable damage before the drones and blasters get in range to do any damage in return. However, this is what the thorax was designed for, and it does this much better than duking it out at range. Other than that? No, I don't get it. Not at all. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:29:00 - [579] There's a reason why, even before the plate issue, thorax pilots didn't go for distance setups. It's hard to fit, doesn't work as well as with other cruisers, and combat will almost invariably be decided before drones even become a factor. (Bigger guns and no tank = very brief combat...usually in favor of the long distance suited ships.) Why fight a style that denies you the advantage of your drones? That said, even an mwd setup does take considerable damage before the drones and blasters get in range to do any damage in return. However, this is what the thorax was designed for, and it does this much better than duking it out at range. Other than that? No, I don't get it. Not at all.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:37:00 - [580] Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus

Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:37:00 - [581] Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus Originally by: Sarmaul Probing times are (still) too long. It needed to be made easier to probe people, not like playing hide and seek in a 6x6 room with no furniture.
Idio T	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:41:00 - [582] I two box a Minmatar. He flies a Belliclose , that gives a %5 med projectile and %10 to distance to turret range. (Excellent bombardment damage.. a real "blast" to play.) I fly a Thorax. PvP close range, the Thorax dominates, long range, I'm practically before I can get a lock. I'd be the last to be confrontational about this issue, and the last to say that I know everything, but I'd also be the last to say that being able to hold 8 Ogres makes you king of the hill. Frigate about it!
Idio T Sebum Primani	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:41:00 - [583] I two box a Minmatar. He flies a Belliclose , that gives a %5 med projectile and %10 to distance to turret range. (Excellent bombardment damage.. a real "blast" to play.) I fly a Thorax. PvP close range, the Thorax dominates, long range, I'm practically before I can get a lock. I'd be the last to be confrontational about this issue, and the last to say that I know everything, but I'd also be the last to say that being able to hold 8 Ogres makes you king of the hill. Frigate about it!
Sorja	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:48:00 - [584] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK AND PEOPLE STOP SAYING "Don't nerf the 'Rax, buff all other cruisers" BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN. Thats a major game mechanic overhaul. If you know anything about game design you'll know its NOT feasible, when a few tweaks can be made to bring everything in line. I friendly disagree with this. You can't change game mechanics without rebalancing the foundation of combat (ships). Look at what happened to Caldari ships, and tell me a serious overhaul of ship layouts isn't needed? You think it's a huge task? It's not trivial, granted. But it's needed. It has already been announced (am I correct?) that T1 frigs will soon get an overhaul to make them more useful, why not for cruisers? They got a boost with last patch, that's why people are talking again about cruisers, because they are fun to fly and generally cheap, which makes them good choices for PvPers who like to do 'crazy things' that they can't afford in HACs or other techII ships. I for one would like to see a further overhaul of cruisers than frigates. Kill mails
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:48:00 - [585] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK AND PEOPLE STOP SAYING "Don't nerf the 'Rax, buff all other cruisers" BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN. Thats a major game mechanic overhaul. If you know anything about game design you'll know its NOT feasible, when a few tweaks can be made to bring everything in line. I friendly disagree with this. You can't change game mechanics without rebalancing the foundation of combat (ships). Look at what happened to Caldari ships, and tell me a serious overhaul of ship layouts isn't needed? You think it's a huge task? It's not trivial, granted. But it's needed. It has already been announced (am I correct?) that T1 frigs will soon get an overhaul to make them more useful, why not for cruisers? They got a boost with last patch, that's why people are talking again about cruisers, because they are fun to fly and generally cheap, which makes them good choices for PvPers who like to do 'crazy things' that they can't afford in HACs or other techII ships. I for one would like to see a further overhaul of cruisers than frigates. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Caeden Nicomachean	Posted - 2005.08.26 04:49:00 - [586] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Now you are outcaping thorax? Sure, hold its fire for just 6 minutes and the guns out of cap? LOL Yeah, hehe. Would you be happy if the vexor and thorax's bay were swapped?
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers	Posted - 2005.08.26 04:49:00 - [587] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Now you are outcaping thorax? Sure, hold its fire for just 6 minutes and the guns out of cap? LOL Yeah, hehe. Would you be happy if the vexor and thorax's bay were swapped? --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com
BlackDog Rackh'am	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:18:00 - [588] Originally by: Nyxus Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus Seriously watch the vid people. If Thorax is indeed a drone ship,then what's the domi being plastered in the vid?Isn't the domi a better drone ship? Cruiser packs killing BS's IF they get under their guns is ok.Frigs,A LOT of frigs,killings BS's is also ok.Tech2 frigs may even kill lone BS's in squads as small as 3-4,due to their t2 guns.But t1 cruisers regularly killing t2 cruisers is not ok (emphasis on "regularly").Can the rifter beat a taranis?Can the incursus beat the wolf?Only if the tech2 pilot has very low SP in general skills (fitting,cap,etc)and not a clue what he's doing.But obviously,a rax can kill a tech2 cruiser with so much ease that it's an outright disgrace.It even outdamages its own tech2 variant for crying out loud.Might as well swap the ships around and make the rax a HAC and the deimos a t1 cruiser. As for the "getting into range" argument,if you watch the movie,you'll see Chris is packing small blasters,which means even less range than small rails.He has no prob killing the zealot though,even while MWD'ing to it from 27km out,and deploys his drones a little more than 15km away from the target.By the time the zealot locks him,he's already close enough,thanks to the MWD,and with plenty of cap to spare,thanks to the ship's bonus.Look at his armor at that point,take note of the overall length of the engagement and tell me if the zealot could target and kill 8 heavy drones in that timeframe. Watch the movie people,and let's talk about it again later.
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:18:00 - [589] Originally by: Nyxus Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus Seriously watch the vid people. If Thorax is indeed a drone ship,then what's the domi being plastered in the vid?Isn't the domi a better drone ship? Cruiser packs killing BS's IF they get under their guns is ok.Frigs,A LOT of frigs,killings BS's is also ok.Tech2 frigs may even kill lone BS's in squads as small as 3-4,due to their t2 guns.But t1 cruisers regularly killing t2 cruisers is not ok (emphasis on "regularly").Can the rifter beat a taranis?Can the incursus beat the wolf?Only if the tech2 pilot has very low SP in general skills (fitting,cap,etc)and not a clue what he's doing.But obviously,a rax can kill a tech2 cruiser with so much ease that it's an outright disgrace.It even outdamages its own tech2 variant for crying out loud.Might as well swap the ships around and make the rax a HAC and the deimos a t1 cruiser. As for the "getting into range" argument,if you watch the movie,you'll see Chris is packing small blasters,which means even less range than small rails.He has no prob killing the zealot though,even while MWD'ing to it from 27km out,and deploys his drones a little more than 15km away from the target.By the time the zealot locks him,he's already close enough,thanks to the MWD,and with plenty of cap to spare,thanks to the ship's bonus.Look at his armor at that point,take note of the overall length of the engagement and tell me if the zealot could target and kill 8 heavy drones in that timeframe. Watch the movie people,and let's talk about it again later.
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:38:00 - [590] Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am Only if the tech2 pilot has very low SP in general skills (fitting,cap,etc)and not a clue what he's doing. Truth. Which I'll wager more or less happened here. Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am It even outdamages its own tech2 variant for crying out loud.Might as well swap the ships around and make the rax a HAC and the deimos a t1 cruiser. It out-damages the Deimos if it has all damage mods. In which case it dies real quick. To any heavy assault ship. Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am As for the "getting into range" argument,if you watch the movie,you'll see Chris is packing small blasters,which means even less range than small rails. You missed the better part of the thread where I outlined that the plate is what makes the thorax overpowered. Also, I noticed the better part of those engagements started within 20km...which is ideal for a thorax. That's like complaining that a tempest killed you at 100km so it must be overpowered. Your video proves the case that a 1600mm plate is overpowered. It does not prove that the drones are what accomplish this. Being able to add...what, 3300 points of armor with a rolled tungsten is HUGE for a thorax, because it doesn't have to sacrifice it's primary firepower...the drones...to take advantage of the added durability. Other cruisers have to sacrifice their guns for said durability, which is why the thorax dominates. Take away the (rediculous) option to fit 1600mm plate on a cruiser, and the situation blances out real quick. Yes, it will still have greater firepower, but as I've outlined again and again it's quite fragile. I still maintain that a non-plated thorax is not overpowered. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.

Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:38:00 - [591] Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am Only if the tech2 pilot has very low SP in general skills (fitting,cap,etc)and not a clue what he's doing. Truth. Which I'll wager more or less happened here. Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am It even outdamages its own tech2 variant for crying out loud.Might as well swap the ships around and make the rax a HAC and the deimos a t1 cruiser. It out-damages the Deimos if it has all damage mods. In which case it dies real quick. To any heavy assault ship. Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am As for the "getting into range" argument,if you watch the movie,you'll see Chris is packing small blasters,which means even less range than small rails. You missed the better part of the thread where I outlined that the plate is what makes the thorax overpowered. Also, I noticed the better part of those engagements started within 20km...which is ideal for a thorax. That's like complaining that a tempest killed you at 100km so it must be overpowered. Your video proves the case that a 1600mm plate is overpowered. It does not prove that the drones are what accomplish this. Being able to add...what, 3300 points of armor with a rolled tungsten is HUGE for a thorax, because it doesn't have to sacrifice it's primary firepower...the drones...to take advantage of the added durability. Other cruisers have to sacrifice their guns for said durability, which is why the thorax dominates. Take away the (rediculous) option to fit 1600mm plate on a cruiser, and the situation blances out real quick. Yes, it will still have greater firepower, but as I've outlined again and again it's quite fragile. I still maintain that a non-plated thorax is not overpowered.
Fidelis Deus	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:41:00 - [592] The Thorax pilot would be toast without his plates before he managed to get within blaster range. Without the plates, the thorax is a high risk hihg payoff machine, it's quite fragile.
Fidelis Deus	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:41:00 - [593] The Thorax pilot would be toast without his plates before he managed to get within blaster range. Without the plates, the thorax is a high risk hihg payoff machine, it's quite fragile.
Idio T	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:44:00 - [594] Originally by: Nyxus Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus Fun Vid ! loved it. I see a great pilot in a decent ship. Not the other way around though. Frigate about it!
Idio T Sebum Primani	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:44:00 - [595] Originally by: Nyxus Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus Fun Vid ! loved it. I see a great pilot in a decent ship. Not the other way around though. Frigate about it!
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:57:00 - [596] Originally by: Sorja I for one would like to see a further overhaul of cruisers than frigates. They need it in my humble opinion too. I have a lot of answers to what was written since my last post, but have absolutely no time to do so now. The main idea is still that the "awesomeness" of the drones rules out other close range cruisers and that once the thorax is at close range of a long range cruiser, it doesn't need all its drones as it is already "under the guns". That, in my book, is a reason why we don't see (other) cruisers. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read.
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2005.08.26 05:57:00 - [597] Originally by: Sorja I for one would like to see a further overhaul of cruisers than frigates. They need it in my humble opinion too. I have a lot of answers to what was written since my last post, but have absolutely no time to do so now. The main idea is still that the "awesomeness" of the drones rules out other close range cruisers and that once the thorax is at close range of a long range cruiser, it doesn't need all its drones as it is already "under the guns". That, in my book, is a reason why we don't see (other) cruisers. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.08.26 06:06:00 - [598] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 06:10:30 Originally by: Fidelis Deus The Thorax pilot would be toast without his plates before he managed to get within blaster range. Dude, check my calculations. A non-plated thorax with hull upgrades 5 facing a full t2 artillery gank rupture with maxed gunnery skills, fitting skills and cruiser skill has 23 seconds (provided that he fitted 2 t2 energized nano membranes or even better, 3 hardeners) to be under the tracking of the rupture, more if he fits a 400mm or 800mm plate and/or use a med armor rep. Any distance above the distance that can be closed during 23s is outside disruptor range, so the thorax can just warp out and warp in closer at will. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read.
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2005.08.26 06:06:00 - [599] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 13:03:05 Edit: Nevermind. In Rust We Trust
Christopher Multsanti	Posted - 2005.08.26 06:18:00 - [600] Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 26/08/2005 06:19:11 I havent read all 12 pages as I have to go to work. But I feel the real power of the Rax lies in it ability to use a 1600 plate and tank like a mofo. Nerf the plate allowing it to only be used by BS, then you would force Rax pilots to fit medium blasters, the way the ship was meant to be fitted. Yes the rax will do excellent damage, buts it supposed to. It just wont be able to tank like a BS anymore. IMO leave the drones nerf the plate. EDIT: oh and thank you for promotion of my vid guys. Thorax FTW!



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