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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 Nomen Nescio    |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:51:00 -
[541]
Seems like I also have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
 Hephaesteus |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:57:00 -
[542] Just saying dude some of you tossers will whine about anything. Get a life.  |
 Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum |
Posted - 2005.08.25 20:57:00 -
[543] Just saying dude some of you tossers will whine about anything. Get a life. |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 21:15:00 -
[544]
True true - I was mostly trying to poke holes in the large scale dps numbers, which as far as I know would only be true with ogres deployed when right on top of the enemy. I don't dispute the rax is mean -- but its also the most expensive cruiser to purchase and its main weapons are out there waiting to be destroyed. Further, noone should be pounding on the thorax before they kill its drones - I think thats one of the things that eludes these formulatic methods of looking at the situation. At the end of the day I want to ensure that there is a truly viable drone platform out there under the HAC/BS level. Its why I originally said to shift it to the Brutix - but DrunkenOne asserts its the best BC going, and I defer to his knowing wtf - even if it looks gimped from the angle I see it from. The Vexor? Its a tier II cruiser, so mebbe if it was moved to tier III...I don't know. Making drones cost grid, or cap? Hehe, cans of worms. |
 Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 21:15:00 -
[545]
True true - I was mostly trying to poke holes in the large scale dps numbers, which as far as I know would only be true with ogres deployed when right on top of the enemy. I don't dispute the rax is mean -- but its also the most expensive cruiser to purchase and its main weapons are out there waiting to be destroyed. Further, noone should be pounding on the thorax before they kill its drones - I think thats one of the things that eludes these formulatic methods of looking at the situation. At the end of the day I want to ensure that there is a truly viable drone platform out there under the HAC/BS level. Its why I originally said to shift it to the Brutix - but DrunkenOne asserts its the best BC going, and I defer to his knowing wtf - even if it looks gimped from the angle I see it from. The Vexor? Its a tier II cruiser, so mebbe if it was moved to tier III...I don't know. Making drones cost grid, or cap? Hehe, cans of worms. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 Kaylana Syi |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:46:00 -
[546]
This thread isn't a whine... your post is... however  I think Naughty has proven his preliminary case and given CCP relevant terms to look into this subject. Not only has the opposing voice in this thread not looked at concrete eveidence but is basing his motives on the description of the ship. Something has to be done to take either take 8 heavies out of the Rax's portfolio OR it needs to loose some turret points. You can't have both. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest |
 Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:46:00 -
[547]
This thread isn't a whine... your post is... however I think Naughty has proven his preliminary case and given CCP relevant terms to look into this subject. Not only has the opposing voice in this thread not looked at concrete eveidence but is basing his motives on the description of the ship. Something has to be done to take either take 8 heavies out of the Rax's portfolio OR it needs to loose some turret points. You can't have both. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:57:00 -
[548]
Wrong. The "ship description" was merely to refute this incredible idea that the Vexor is a "drone boat." I have no idea where that notion came from. It was given a drone bonus to beef it up back when cruisers got a second bonus. That didn't make it the primary drone boat, that merely brought it into the realm of "useful." The heart of my argument actually just took place when somebody mentioned that they can get 200dps with their rupture. My point is that the rupture (and any other cruiser) can begin doing that damage immediately. Heavy drones moving at 700-1000m/s have to wait a good 20 seconds or longer to begin doing their damage. Which is why the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser...it has less time to do that damage in. It's already well into armor by the time it starts doing damage. As a footnote to that...I also feel that 1600mm plate is inappropriate for cruisers. I also admit that 1600mm plate gives the thorax the biggest advantage...because a thorax doesn't have to give up its primary weapon (drones) to utilize said durability but every other cruiser has to give up their turrets or missiles to use it. Bottom line? Thorax without a 1600mm plate is balanced. It can do faster damage than any other cruiser...but it has less of a window to do that damage it. It's already half-dead by the time it begins doing damage. Leave the drone bay be, sort out the 1600mm plate. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:57:00 -
[549]
Wrong. The "ship description" was merely to refute this incredible idea that the Vexor is a "drone boat." I have no idea where that notion came from. It was given a drone bonus to beef it up back when cruisers got a second bonus. That didn't make it the primary drone boat, that merely brought it into the realm of "useful." The heart of my argument actually just took place when somebody mentioned that they can get 200dps with their rupture. My point is that the rupture (and any other cruiser) can begin doing that damage immediately. Heavy drones moving at 700-1000m/s have to wait a good 20 seconds or longer to begin doing their damage. Which is why the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser...it has less time to do that damage in. It's already well into armor by the time it starts doing damage. As a footnote to that...I also feel that 1600mm plate is inappropriate for cruisers. I also admit that 1600mm plate gives the thorax the biggest advantage...because a thorax doesn't have to give up its primary weapon (drones) to utilize said durability but every other cruiser has to give up their turrets or missiles to use it. Bottom line? Thorax without a 1600mm plate is balanced. It can do faster damage than any other cruiser...but it has less of a window to do that damage it. It's already half-dead by the time it begins doing damage. Leave the drone bay be, sort out the 1600mm plate. |
Alexis Ayala |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:06:00 -
[550] Can't we all just be friends? ~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~ Doctor Alexis Ayala GHINC - Gallente Horizons Incorporated |
 Alexis Ayala Gallente Gallente Horizons Incorporated |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:06:00 -
[551] Can't we all just be friends? ~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~<*>~~~ Doctor Alexis Ayala GHINC - Gallente Horizons Incorporated |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:11:00 -
[552] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 23:11:05
Man you can't be that s.... Rupture fits for damage and get 200 dps "instant" damage, and that' it. Thorax with NOTHING fitted has 170dps. And 5 guns on top of that. How could you not understand it?!! Thorax fittted the way rupture is will do 200 dps at the ranges of rupture with no problem. PLUS the drones. PLUS THE DRONES is the problem, not a thorax as a ship. What else can you say to make it clear? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:11:00 -
[553] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 25/08/2005 23:11:05
Man you can't be that s.... Rupture fits for damage and get 200 dps "instant" damage, and that' it. Thorax with NOTHING fitted has 170dps. And 5 guns on top of that. How could you not understand it?!! Thorax fittted the way rupture is will do 200 dps at the ranges of rupture with no problem. PLUS the drones. PLUS THE DRONES is the problem, not a thorax as a ship. What else can you say to make it clear? |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:19:00 -
[554]
Not sure who this lone opposing voice is...seems like there are many who support leaving the thorax as it is. Ignoring trolls is always a good idear. My frank opinion is that people look at the drone II's in the item database and get angry about the thorax because of perceived potential of the boats. That and plates have upped their role, but that is true across the board for cruisers. How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones? I'd think a plate maller would have similar options, but could keep closer in. The Moa, thats another story - as it suffers from recent missile issues and lack of armor tanking goodness with the plates. But 1v1, does the rupture and maller get waxed - consistently, by the thorax? *shrug* |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:19:00 -
[555]
Not sure who this lone opposing voice is...seems like there are many who support leaving the thorax as it is. Ignoring trolls is always a good idear. My frank opinion is that people look at the drone II's in the item database and get angry about the thorax because of perceived potential of the boats. That and plates have upped their role, but that is true across the board for cruisers. How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones? I'd think a plate maller would have similar options, but could keep closer in. The Moa, thats another story - as it suffers from recent missile issues and lack of armor tanking goodness with the plates. But 1v1, does the rupture and maller get waxed - consistently, by the thorax? *shrug* --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:25:00 -
[556] "How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones?" Why would the Thorax pilot give opponent chance of free pot shots at their drones in the first place, by deploying them before they have the target within suitable range and their speed under control..? (i guess unless they're afraid of EW, but then it's not exactly something to be afraid from Rupture, is it... |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:25:00 -
[557] "How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones?" Why would the Thorax pilot give opponent chance of free pot shots at their drones in the first place, by deploying them before they have the target within suitable range and their speed under control..? (i guess unless they're afraid of EW, but then it's not exactly something to be afraid from Rupture, is it... |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[558]
This number is greatly inflated real world, as I noted in earlier arguments. It is also counterable. Here is perhaps a difference between us. I have no qualms with the Thorax being a bit better ship than some of the other tier 3 cruisers. It has a higher base price. The question is, how *much* better is it really? If it is enough that people have no use to fly the other tier 3 cruises, then I'm all for swinging the nerf bat. If however, it is knee jerk, percieved ultra-superiority based on the item database and not real world usage - then I think it should be left the heck alone. Take plates out of the sitch. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[559] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 23:30:10
To be honest, I'm not sure a thorax can be fitted to do 200dps at the ranges of a rupture. It's just not designed to have that kind of damage at that kind of range. If you're talking about trying to go toe-to-toe with 720s using 200mm rails, the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrive. As for "not understanding..." I don't see how I'm not getting across my point that the thorax will be under fire for a good long time before it can deal damage. 170dps drones doesn't mean anything for at least 20 seconds. 20 seconds of taking fire without being able to return it. Even assuming you're only being hit for 120 dps in the mean time, (a more reasonable number than 200dps perhaps?) you're going to be in really bad shape when you finally open fire. You HAVE to be able to do far superior DoT to be able to compete at that point. You guys are hung up on this static dps stuff. You're not taking into account the tactical dynamic of it all. MWD-ing thorax gets hit for lots of damage. Slow moving drones don't just magically start doing that 170 dps. In fact, any cruiser with an mwd will beat a blaster-rax...just out distance the drones and blasters. Because all of the thoraxes weapons are short range, the cruiser is impervious to fire, large sig-radius notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the thorax is trying to cover ground whilst taking a beating. A caracal with mwd and cap booster should beat a thorax every time. An mwd-ing vexor with a cap booster could probably do it as well. Not to mention a rupture, a bellicose, a stabber, an omen, whatever. The drones will not be able to keep pace, and the blasters won't be able to take advantage of the opposing cruiser's large sig radius. I can keep throwing out examples. I can keep re-wording it. And I can keep on being ignored, I guess. The thorax is a high risk ship. Without a plate, it depends on starting an engagement from a very short range, and praying that its target is not fast. Taking away the plate will square everything away. Taking away the drones will only perpetuate the circle of nerf, as another cruiser (likely the maller) steps up as massively superior to other cruisers. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[560]
This number is greatly inflated real world, as I noted in earlier arguments. It is also counterable. Here is perhaps a difference between us. I have no qualms with the Thorax being a bit better ship than some of the other tier 3 cruisers. It has a higher base price. The question is, how *much* better is it really? If it is enough that people have no use to fly the other tier 3 cruises, then I'm all for swinging the nerf bat. If however, it is knee jerk, percieved ultra-superiority based on the item database and not real world usage - then I think it should be left the heck alone. Take plates out of the sitch. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[561] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 23:30:10
To be honest, I'm not sure a thorax can be fitted to do 200dps at the ranges of a rupture. It's just not designed to have that kind of damage at that kind of range. If you're talking about trying to go toe-to-toe with 720s using 200mm rails, the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrive. As for "not understanding..." I don't see how I'm not getting across my point that the thorax will be under fire for a good long time before it can deal damage. 170dps drones doesn't mean anything for at least 20 seconds. 20 seconds of taking fire without being able to return it. Even assuming you're only being hit for 120 dps in the mean time, (a more reasonable number than 200dps perhaps?) you're going to be in really bad shape when you finally open fire. You HAVE to be able to do far superior DoT to be able to compete at that point. You guys are hung up on this static dps stuff. You're not taking into account the tactical dynamic of it all. MWD-ing thorax gets hit for lots of damage. Slow moving drones don't just magically start doing that 170 dps. In fact, any cruiser with an mwd will beat a blaster-rax...just out distance the drones and blasters. Because all of the thoraxes weapons are short range, the cruiser is impervious to fire, large sig-radius notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the thorax is trying to cover ground whilst taking a beating. A caracal with mwd and cap booster should beat a thorax every time. An mwd-ing vexor with a cap booster could probably do it as well. Not to mention a rupture, a bellicose, a stabber, an omen, whatever. The drones will not be able to keep pace, and the blasters won't be able to take advantage of the opposing cruiser's large sig radius. I can keep throwing out examples. I can keep re-wording it. And I can keep on being ignored, I guess. The thorax is a high risk ship. Without a plate, it depends on starting an engagement from a very short range, and praying that its target is not fast. Taking away the plate will square everything away. Taking away the drones will only perpetuate the circle of nerf, as another cruiser (likely the maller) steps up as massively superior to other cruisers. |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:34:00 -
[562]
True... Though if that is the case the rupture does have a higher base speed than the thorax...and while the thorax gets the mwd bennie, the rupture's guns use virtually no cap. Still comes down to keep range on the target, for that particular match up it seems to me. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:34:00 -
[563]
True... Though if that is the case the rupture does have a higher base speed than the thorax...and while the thorax gets the mwd bennie, the rupture's guns use virtually no cap. Still comes down to keep range on the target, for that particular match up it seems to me. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:56:00 -
[564] So now suddenly 5x250mm rails and 5% damage bonus are somehow not enough to match the rupture 4x720s +5% rof +%5 damage? At 20km range? Thats kinda news for me. And its like what? 10% of a rupture firepower? 25% maybe? Because even HALF of drones dps will be around 100dps, so i think if you outgun poor rax with 200 dps TOTAL, then I have to have like 50 dps on my rails or something? |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:56:00 -
[565] So now suddenly 5x250mm rails and 5% damage bonus are somehow not enough to match the rupture 4x720s +5% rof +%5 damage? At 20km range? Thats kinda news for me. And its like what? 10% of a rupture firepower? 25% maybe? Because even HALF of drones dps will be around 100dps, so i think if you outgun poor rax with 200 dps TOTAL, then I have to have like 50 dps on my rails or something? |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:27:00 -
[566]
250 IIs = rate of fire 6.38, activation cost 10 720 IIs = rate of fire 15.75 sec, activation cost 1 In other words, the rails use up cap at around 30 times what the arty does. If both ships gain at around 2.8 energy per second, it would take what - six minutes of a fight and the thorax couldn't shoot. This assumes no tanking or whatnot, as fitting 5 med rails would prohibit that. All of which is moot though, people don't generally fit such a setup on a thorax in my experience. They fit small guns and tank, so at 20km you are dancing on them or they are warping out. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:27:00 -
[567]
250 IIs = rate of fire 6.38, activation cost 10 720 IIs = rate of fire 15.75 sec, activation cost 1 In other words, the rails use up cap at around 30 times what the arty does. If both ships gain at around 2.8 energy per second, it would take what - six minutes of a fight and the thorax couldn't shoot. This assumes no tanking or whatnot, as fitting 5 med rails would prohibit that. All of which is moot though, people don't generally fit such a setup on a thorax in my experience. They fit small guns and tank, so at 20km you are dancing on them or they are warping out. --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:57:00 -
[568] Now you are outcaping thorax?  Sure, hold its fire for just 6 minutes and the guns out of cap? LOLHaving 50 dps for 100 seconds will deal 5k damage on your rupture. For sake of argument thorax has only 1/2 of cap already which is 500 before any skills. Using 10 cap per second with no recharge at all you can fire for 50 seconds which is 2.5k damage.... 50 dps I can shoot irons from fig guns, please man, dont be silly on public. 6 minutes... in 6 minutes a velator will kill you. |
Nomen Nescio |
Posted - 2005.08.26 01:57:00 -
[569] Now you are outcaping thorax? Sure, hold its fire for just 6 minutes and the guns out of cap? LOLHaving 50 dps for 100 seconds will deal 5k damage on your rupture. For sake of argument thorax has only 1/2 of cap already which is 500 before any skills. Using 10 cap per second with no recharge at all you can fire for 50 seconds which is 2.5k damage.... 50 dps I can shoot irons from fig guns, please man, dont be silly on public. 6 minutes... in 6 minutes a velator will kill you. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:01:00 -
[570]
A question of fitting. Thorax has to spend more low slots (and cpu) on grid upgrades (1000 grid consumption from the rupture weapons, 1125 from the thorax weapons, and the rupture has a 25 grid head start.) This leaves the rupture with low slots for damage mods and perhaps even cpu left over for tracking comps. It's bad mojo for a thorax to be sitting around trading blows with a rupture like that. Assuming no tank for either, the rupture can put out enough damage at that range to splash the thorax before the drones become a factor in the dps of the thorax. An mwd with at least moderate tank (explosive hardener and medium armor repairer) to counter the added damage that the mwd will bring is preferable to just sitting in optimal of a rupture. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
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