So there are the cruisers! Waited for them quite some time. Next thing i am looking forward to is the posting about the battleships.

VIGILANT


Role Bonus:[/b]
75% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage

Does the Gila really get a 500% bonus to medium drones instead of the 50% you'd expect, or is that a typo?

edit: oh, it only gets two drones, gotcha

u wot m8

Role Bonus:
75% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage

can you make a pirate cruiser that has 10 second reload on rapid lights tia in advance

So under AB power the Phantasm will go approximately 1km/s without any nanos, links, boosters, implants, etc... I wonder how fast it'll go with a 100mn AB....

Uh.....you just killed the Gila.

The Vigilant bonus was a typo, it's fixed now: MEDIUM hybrid.

The Gila bonus is not a typo, 500%.

Hey remember when you guys introduced tier 3 BCs and no one ever saw Cynabals again? Then all those t1 cruiser buffs, navy cruiser buffs, and HAC buffs? Good thing the Cynabal's getting a nerf, it's such a terrifying and viable ship currently (this is sarcasm)

...How's the Gila going to deal with smaller ships, with only medium drones being bonused? It's already at a huge disadvantage at defending itself as such because lol HMLs/AMLs.

Very interested in trying out both Gurista ships revealed so far, regardless. Also the Phantasm.

Errrr, so how much dps will it dish out with a flight of medium drones now? give or take a few?

Oh, and nice changes, though im not a big fan of the pg nerf on the cynabal

Phantasm is underwhelming ..
its dps is a little weak ... granted 5 lows opens up options..
its base speed isn't very impressive either
could do with lower sig radius too..

you're mentally defective lmao

12 (twelve) effective drones + missiles damage bonus + resist bonus = dead anything

but oh no it cant use sentries any more!!!

Still no real reason to fly a cynabal over other equivalent options.

Also 90% webs still broken,

So under AB power the Phantasm will go approximately 1km/s without any nanos, links, boosters, implants, etc... I wonder how fast it'll go with a 100mn AB....

So under AB power the Phantasm will go approximately 1km/s without any nanos, links, boosters, implants, etc... I wonder how fast it'll go with a 100mn AB....

Oh, the gila never had a role bonus to light missile and rocket velocity. All this changing of bonuses around is taking its toll :p

I wonder if my prediction for Pirate Battleships will be right too...!

Vigilant:
Keeping the web bonus

does nobody else remember that huge thread we had where we all got mad about webs, and in particular, 90% webs? I'm fairly sure some CCPs agreed that webs are stupid.

PHANTASM
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 228(+64) / .62(-.06) / 965000 / 8.25s

ASHIMMU
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 208(+33) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s

vigilant still has its niche

What bonus could you possibly give the Vigilant other than that that differentiates it from the Deimos

Just putting it out there that the Gila will be doing less dps with its 2 hammerheads than the Ishtar with sentries on top of the fact that the gila is now limited to not being able to field a full flight of any drones.

Just putting it out there that the Gila will be doing less dps with its 2 hammerheads than the Ishtar with sentries on top of the fact that the gila is now limited to not being able to field a full flight of any drones.

i think you're ignoring
1) garde/bouncer dps nerf upcoming
2) the 4 10% bonused launchers it will now have

you could leave it, but nerf webs down to 50%. they could let it dictate range with web or scram resistance or immunity. 90% webs are dumb and break the game.

gila still getting 15 slots really??? lose a high slot would be fair on all guristas ships
has very low mass for a combat cruiser
how high is its dps? .. 500% seems a little high combined with 4 launchers now?
10 hammerheads eh .. interesting never so generous to gallente droneboats

Hi Rise/Fozzie. I feel like the Cynabal overlaps far too much with the current Vagabond which currently is better in a lot of ways over the Cynabal and is generally superior. The Cynabal only offers better agility and a slightly better drone bay for all-around poorer performance. The extra mid does add some options but the vagabonds T2 resistances give a better performance than a 3rd tank items does from the Cynabal and the vagabonds shield boost bonus makes it the superior brawler. The vagabond has far better cap stability, t2 resists which help a lot for local/remote reps, better targeting stats and a powerful local rep bonus.

The cynabal only has a slight fitting advantage over the Vagabond if the Vagabond and Cynabal are both fitting 425mm Autocannons, otherwise, it's inferior. And that slight grid advantage doesn't allow you to offset the disadvantages.

I think the Cynabal needs to find a new niche;

I think the Cynabal needs to find a new niche;

wtb rep bonus

You're wrong, the phantasm is easily the best ship here now.

Rise, you need to buff the cynabal, it's currently a crappy ship RIGHT NOW, as it is overshadowed by the vagabond which is superior in all ways. A long time ago the cynabal was good when it was the king of speed and damage projection, but now that we have taloses, t1 cruisers that go as fast as the cynabal, and ships that are more tanky overall, the cynabal is a very very lackluster ship.

Can cargoholds please be specified with these balance changes?
I'd like to know if cargoholds are being buffed or nerfed, becuase they do have effect on ship balance.
The amount of cap charges and ammo a ship can carry is pretty important!

vaga has that already

1. Stop with the endless spouting of removing a slot from Gurista ships "because other drone ships have that". This is a Pirate faction ship. Those restrictions do not apply because pirate faction ships are a much higher meta level. How do you not understand this.
2. Intended. Part of the Gurista 'flavour' has always been having comparatively light hulls. The Worm also follows this pattern, as does the Rattler.
3. Comparable to it's current DPS, but more balanced between missiles and drones rather than being purely drone based DPS (which may be helpful indeed), as far as I can tell.
4. Gurista ships are as much Gallente ships as they are Caldari, despite having the model of Caldari ships.

I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

Please reconsider and remove the 90% web bonus from all serp ships or nerf it , removing it from the ashimmu is a great start, but don't leave it on the serp hulls.

Please reconsider and remove the 90% web bonus from all serp ships or nerf it , removing it from the ashimmu is a great start, but don't leave it on the serp hulls.

In my experience 90% webs have two primary in game uses, that is to make gate camps inescapable because you cannot re-approach or it is extremely difficult in even the fastest ships, or they are used to slow ships down to the point where dreads track them so you can blap them. Neither of these mechanics are particularly desirable imo. Gate camping is pretty lame and so is dread blapping.

If you do want to keep a web strength bonus in game, how about this, keep it at 90% on the DD and then have the strength drop off on the vigi and the vindi, the bigger the hull the lower the strength of the web. That makes it possible to at least try to blap a DD on a gate and get out if you run across a camp using 90% webs and it nerfs dread blapping at the same time and gives you a better chance to re-approach if you run into someone camping with Vigilants for example.

So say 90% web on on the DD and 80% on the Vigi and 70% on the Vindi for web strength as figures I just pulled out of the air.

Also, here is an idea:

For all ewar bonuses (webs, tds, etc), make the bonus apply fully only to the 1st (best) ewar mod, and then have diminishing strength on further ewar.

So a curse might have 1 60% td, 1 50% td, and then normal strength tds after that.

Huginn might have 1 56km web 1 40km web, 1 20 km web, normal webs after that.

Nice gila nerf...
going from 793 dps with ogre / 751 dps with garde down to 636 dps

so a 157 dps NERF

big number stealth nerf there

Nice gila nerf...
going from 793 dps with ogre / 751 dps with garde down to 636 dps

so a 157 dps NERF

big number stealth nerf there

Guess we should remove Lokis, Huginns and Hyenas as well cause someone might get slowed down

Guess we should remove Lokis, Huginns and Hyenas as well cause someone might get slowed down

hey if we are going for crazy role bonus why not make angel ships mwd not shut down by scrams!??!?!?!

so basically all angel ships would be pre nano nerf ships.

The web strength on a single vigilant is more than every single loki, huginn and hyena in the game combined.

3 web loki on a single nano mwding Deimos takes you down to ~320ms

Single Web Vigi takes you down to 260

If we're using blap dreads and gatecamps as a reason why 90% webs are so incredibly broken then I'm not really seeing a strong argument

Single web vigilant takes you to 10% speed.

Triple web loki takes you to 12.5% speed.

You go 25% faster under 3 loki webs than with 1 vigilant web.

If the vigilant has 2 webs btw, you go 2.1% speed.

I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

The Phantasm is a broken concept imo. What is the point in having all that speed if the lasers cannot track and the shield bumps up the signature. And I notice the increase in low slots, so are we expected to armour tank this thing now?

Sansha just seems like a completely broken concept now.

And lol at all the people getting excited that the Phantasm will be travelling some ridiculous speed, completely forgetting the fact that it is not a tengu or a loki fitted with missiles, so your going to be hitting f all.

Edit - Why not just balance the armour and shield of the sansha ships now, including the succubus, because if you are seriously wanting to offer people a dual option to tank, then the stats should reflect that.

Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise

I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise

Where's Dinsdale, this is yet another DEVASTATION of sentry drones by the null-sec mafia.

In seriousness though, the PG amounts on Cynabal and Gila are worrying me a lot.

Gila used to completely forgo any missiles since it was focused on the sentry range and lack of CPU after drone module. While these super-bonused mediums do a lot of damage, the new Gila gets a very strong missile DPS bonus, but sort of lacks the powergrid to do anything with that. I have to EFT it up a bit but it just seems pretty awkward.

On Cynabal as others have stated already it's pretty disappointing since the ship wasn't terribly strong before. It also basically removes the kiting arty cynabal, a niche role for the ship which I really enjoyed. With the other fast cruisers (namely vagabond) as strong as they are, it's hard for me to justify this nerf.

so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?

so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?

In EVE, yes, when its broken, everybody uses it, if everybody isn't using it, its probably not really broken and just strong in a certain niche of the game, that niche might happen to be where you're, but I'm sorry, EVE needs more ships that are strong in a certain area and weak in others, its called uniqueness and it makes the game better than everything being some generic hodgepodge of our standard stats.

Serpentis ships excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.

True true, however the Vigilant is only going to get max ~18km webs while the Loki gets like 47km

You also have less mids to play around with depending on the configuration less tank but more speed and more dps

But I've never really seen 90% webs are broken, sure there could be some balancing effort made but its a nice bit of flavor and makes Serpentis ships useful

You are talking like almost mwd speed that is not getting owned my scram is not godsend thing ... mkay.
You can manually adjust your speed while flying ... and pilot your ship also - instead of orbiting 24/7. It helps to hit stuff, trust me.
But you can also just move fast as hell to catch something you want to catch or disengage if you have to. You are really thinking it's nothing ? Cmon.

Nah 2 more lows are good stuff - you can armor tank it now. But sure you are not forced to do so. 6 mids are still 6 mids - that is a lot on cruiser. If people shield tank cruisers with 3 or 4 mids - i'm sure you can still shield tank ship with 6 mids.

Look at lows as place where you can get nanos, heat sinks, tracking enhancers (for your problem to hit the stuff - it also does work better on phantasm due to hull tracking bonus).

Phantasm is strong, period - about the fking time ;).

Serpentis ships Remote doomsdays on bubble immune titans excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.

They excelled in all areas mate, way to make an extremely bad counter argument.

In EVE, yes, when its broken, everybody uses it, if everybody isn't using it, its probably not really broken and just strong in a certain niche of the game, that niche might happen to be where you are, but I'm sorry, EVE needs more ships that are strong in a certain area and weak in others, its called uniqueness and it makes the game better than everything being some generic hodgepodge of our standard stats.

Serpentis ships excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.

they excel in all situations where they don't get rekt, and making all smaller ships irrelevant isn't good game balance

I am not a fan of the Gila change. I mean Medium drones would really need an AMAZING balance to even begin to make up for what it is currently. At the moment the GIla is the mini-Rattlesnake. Solid tank, great drones, highly versatile.

I don't see this change being the same.

Bandwidth for only 4 unbonused light drones means dealing with Frigs will be painful, even more so as a DRONE BOAT.. And I don't like droneboats being FORCED to use a specific type of drone regardless of situation.

Here's my idea, since clearly you don't want to have it fielding Sentries/Heavies as effectively.

Change the bonus from MEDIUM drones, to ALL drones. It'll still be only able to field 2 Mediums, or 4 Lights. But at least the lights will be bonused, and able to remain effective against frigs.

The other things to remember about these drone changes. CCP what you are doing is Locking these ships into a PVE role forever, as it denies them the ability to use their drones for EWAR.. Being able to field 5 light ECM drones, or any other drones should CCP get around to making them, you know, useful, is a big deal. It gives you the chance to get out of trouble, or to hold a target at bay.
Now I know the Gila is a PVE Queen now as it is, but it will only be moso now, after this. Which is kind of a shame given that it's a PIRATE hull.

Maybe a hull bonus to the effectiveness of ECM/Neut/Web/etc drones too ? Might open up a lot of new doors for it outside of a just a mission queen.

As a Rattlesnake pilot, I'm really worried what you're going to do to it.

Damn shame they can't be wiped off the map by a keres, griffon, maulus or kitsune, damn those smaller ship. oh and a sentinel can probably have something to say about those short stubby webs.

Damn all those irrelevant smaller ships

EDIT: Calling something uncounterable because its counter isn't in your standard ship compliment seems silly, adapt your ship types if you're seeing a lot of Vigilants to include the things that easily counter them.

The list is pretty long of ships that fit the bill, at a fraction of its cost.

so no ship is OP because ecm and damps exist, and no ship with modules that use cap is OP because neuts exist

so no ship is OP because ecm and damps exist, and no ship with modules that use cap is OP because neuts exist

Going to give these a few days and hopefully post the BS near the end of the week.

Cynabal nerf is pretty big, this isnt "keeping it the same" at all.
It's losing 1/4 of its powergrid.

Cynabal nerf is pretty big, this isnt "keeping it the same" at all.
It's losing 1/4 of its powergrid.

Hey nice rollerskates under your argument there, you say it makes smaller shipo irrelevant and I name you 5 smaller ships that aren't irrelevant and you change the direction of the argument to some absurd crap.

You can probably do better than that, try sticking to one thread of your argument at a time, you were saying something about making smaller ships irrelevant?

Hi Rise/Fozzie. I feel like the Cynabal overlaps far too much with the current Vagabond which currently is better in a lot of ways over the Cynabal and is generally superior. The Cynabal only offers better agility and a slightly better drone bay for all-around poorer performance. The extra mid does add some options but the vagabonds T2 resistances give a better performance than a 3rd tank items does from the Cynabal and the vagabonds shield boost bonus makes it the superior brawler. The vagabond has far better cap stability, t2 resists which help a lot for local/remote reps, better targeting stats and a powerful local rep bonus.

The cynabal only has a slight fitting advantage over the Vagabond if the Vagabond and Cynabal are both fitting 425mm Autocannons, otherwise, it's inferior. And that slight grid advantage doesn't allow you to offset the disadvantages.

I think the Cynabal needs to find a new niche;

The Vigilant bonus was a typo, it's fixed now: MEDIUM hybrid.

The Gila bonus is not a typo, 500%.

fairly sure I said with the exception of interceptors and long range ewar ships

lmao all these people thinking the cynabal is OP or even viable. Jesus it's like eve-o's knowledge of the metagame is perpetually stuck 3 years behind the curve.

I bet you guys still think the hurricane is overpowered

If you're looking for some unique flavor...

The Gila needs at least a 50% bonus to Medium EWar and Combat Utility drone effects. Actually, with the Guristas, a 500% bonus to ECM drone effects wouldn't be out of character, but I suspect that would be way too much for some people. A wing of Vespa EC-600s with a 500% bonus would be like getting hit by two multispectrum jammers on a Blackbird with a Max Skilled pilot.

Please explain to me why a ship whose role includes drone damage requires a bonus to ewar drones. You have ten seconds.

Why shouldn't you have the same EC-300s/600s as other ships

If you'll notice I have what you said quoted

phantasm could definitely do with a full set of lights too deal with frigs and it will need a neut so .. more pg and cap is needed really ... reduce the sig radius a little more would be good so it doesn't end up at 200 sig with extenders... maybe exchange some armour ... they are meant too be shield tanked anyway..

phantasm could definitely do with a full set of lights too deal with frigs and it will need a neut so .. more pg and cap is needed really ... reduce the sig radius a little more would be good so it doesn't end up at 200 sig with extenders... maybe exchange some armour ... they are meant too be shield tanked anyway..

@ Medalyn Isis

I'm afraid you need to understand that Sansha nation ship is not Caldari ship , aswell it is not Amarr ship at same time. It's Sansha nation vessel.

Even more if dip into Sansha lore - they do consist members from all 4 major factions - so ship design could also import ideas from entire New Eden.

No concept is invalid for Sansha in this case.

Sorry ... i would hate devs if they would give it something stupid like TD bonus or shield resist bonus (even tho this one is powerful). I love the ... unique bonus on Sansha lineup. Now NOONE does the same thing. Which is nice - we got faction that does it own stuff. Not like Cyna for example ... Yeah looks great ... is not bad. But at the same time it is just pimped minmatar ship.
Phantasm just won over cyna ... instead of being happy about that - you complain.

A good suggestion was to make the Sansha ships have a 250% web range role bonus. I would have much preferred that and then keep them as strong laser shield ships which can web to improve their tracking at long ranges.

They aren't going to do that. The whole point seems to be that the ship is mismatched. That is why it appears powerful on paper, because you are going to have to contend with all of the contradictions in its fittings, stats, and bonuses.

For instance it appears like it is meant to go super fast, yet it cannot track when it does. And it appears as though it is meant to be shield tanked, although its sig rockets when it is countering the speed benefit. It appears as though it could be armour tanked, yet the base shield is substantially higher.

I think I can see what CCP Rise is doing, as this seems his style. It is kind of interesting, but the concept seems to be purposefully messy, and in practice it will be a lot weaker than it appears on paper.

Because its a drone ship without the slot penalty

So basically fly an Ishtar

More like long live rattlesnake ! With Ogres of course ;)).

Yay! I can use slow drones that don't have a chance in hell of making it back into my dronebay before getting blapped off the field!

Wait, what?

These criticisms don't make much sense. An ABing Phantasm will be slower than a MWDing one, and hence will track better, all others being equal. If tracking is a problem, then try flying in a different direction, slowing down or turning the AB off.

You criticise the sig radius, yet ignore the biggest sig bloom mod of them all - the MWD, which you would be fitting without the AB bonus. If you want really a small sig, just active shield tank it. Anyway, the speed bonus will exceed the detrimental effects of shield sig bloom in normal conditions.

Edit - your reference to a web range bonus just screams highsec incursion runner wanting to blap at range with a Nightmare.

I have not flown my Gila in a long time.

I had it configured for low sec exploration, with sentries.
I was waiting to see what niche it would fill, but realize it is now complete garbage as a PvE ship., as the AI will still shred medium drones just like they do now, wiping out much of the DPS in seconds.
And of course, in a PvP situation, the adversary will just blow up a Hammerhead and bam, a huge chunk of DPS is removed.

I will wait until prices go up, as some poor saps will think it is awesome, and likely sell it.

But hey, you sycophants that think rise and fozzie should cater solely to the PvP crowd, you keep on licking their boots.
They are doing wonders for you. The rest of us, well, we are screwed by them at very turn.

I can't wait until my Stratios is "rebalanced" solely as a PvP boat, and well, my low sec exploration Proteus was already trashed.

i am not shocked dinsdale was using the wrong ship poorly for a niche it's bested in by a lot of other ships and is whining when it is rebalanced to have its own niche that is pretty unique instead of it being buffed for dinsdale's dumb use

not shocked at all

sig is too high and its orbit velocity is hardly convincing

Hang on, you say sig size there. Checking EFT, Do medium drones really have the same sig size as large drones? Or is my EFT broken :s
That's mad.

Not able to really comment on the orbit velocities. I've always found them pretty tough to nail quick enough when orbiting you firing as they are currently, let alone with a boost. Don't they struggle to track at the speed they orbit at normally? I'm rusty with drones! :p

Both heavy and medium drones are getting speed buff at same time. Read Dev Blog about this.

Speaking of EHP of Ogre with 500% bonus ... ain't going down easily. Especially that it will be faster at same time. And on top of that rattle does more damage from missiles than ever.

They'll be 20% faster. Whoop-de-doo. That's not really sufficient to get them to move fast enough to get back into my hold before they die.

And the EHP will be enough for them to last 50% of the way back into my drone bay instead of 10%...yay...

Hey remember when you guys introduced tier 3 BCs and no one ever saw Cynabals again? Then all those t1 cruiser buffs, navy cruiser buffs, and HAC buffs? Good thing the Cynabal's getting a nerf, it's such a terrifying and viable ship currently (this is sarcasm)

it is if you're brawling. with drag and drop drones, if you try and shoot the drones on a droneship up close, you're pretty much throwing the fight.

Speaking of EHP of Ogre with 500% bonus ... ain't going down easily. Especially that it will be faster at same time. And on top of that rattle does more damage from missiles than ever.

Gila with HAMs clears 1000 DPS easily, isn't that a little ridiculous? That's with 6 mids and a resist bonus.