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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Michal Jita
Lords Of The Universe
18
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:33:39 -
[931] - Quote
Not sure how many times this has been mentioned before but one of the biggest pros of fleet warp is warping with the speed of a slowest fleet member, a PVP or PVE fleet in WH will have to align and warp to bookmark often not having a scout in place beforehand especially in PVP, warping individually is not an option as smaller ships will land on grid and die before larger ones can come to their aid, this gets worse the longer the warp. Not being able to warp to corp bookmarks is very bad in my opinion, this removes a full part of the game where people could be at advantage by having these and being able to react quickly to what is goingo on on the grid. Now reacting quickly will be out of the window as to do anything you will need to put one member of the fleet in its place before warping rest. You have done such a great job placing bookmarks in space so we can see them on grid, now you are removing the biggest benefit of it, by not allowing us to react quickly. Those that were prepared and had bookmarks around the grid could use it now, it will be all about the numbers, those with more scouts doted around the grid will be at an advantage.
I can see more bad from this then good especially for small fleet roams and wormhole space.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16159
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:35:01 -
[932] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Mates, The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week. Have a great weekend!
Dont give in to the lazy, no surrender.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Imataki Nobuno
Sword of Glory
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:35:06 -
[933] - Quote
Querns wrote:afkalt wrote:Querns wrote:Jeff Kione wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Mates, The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week. Have a great weekend! Fleet participation =/= sitting in space pretending to be a bookmark. That's not very engaging. It is when you are in the middle of an enemy fleet, desperately keeping traversal up to survive. You're mixing up combat enagagement vs simply warping to a corp bookmark. Given the lag on BM propogation there's NO COMBAT impact to those, but hey - we don't need QOL or a way to move fleets as a unit efficiently, right? We need to find something for those poor poor frigates that everyone leaves at home because no FC ever wants tackle. Right? It's horseshit. There were a plethora of ways to address the perceived issues without heinous collateral damage and these changes are not it. It's like deleting drones because of ishtars. It sounds like, indeed, they think moving fleets is too easy. It appears to be the primary point of the change. Is it less convenient than the status quo to which you and quite a few of the posters here are accustomed? Of course. Also, your insistence, and the insistence of several posters in the thread, of corp bookmarks being the solution to the problem (or a font of annoyance due to their slow propagation time) is amusing. These bandaid workarounds only work if all of your pilots are in the same corporation. Being able to share bookmarks and probe results in this fashion would automatically would give homogeneous groups an advantage over those not in the same corporation. As such, I steadfastly disagree that corp bookmarks should ever be instantaneous.
Regarding the bolded part, I think he means enabling an FC to fleet warp to a corporation bookmark while still disallowing FC fleet warps to personal bookmarks. If an FC fleet warps to a corporation bookmark, it will still warp members of the fleet not in that corporation. Because they do take longer to update, it would be useful for FCs that wish to warp their fleet directly to Jump Bridges or to insta-dock locations on stations while being entirely useless for combat. |
niteyninja II
Sunshine Bear Crack Factory Mining is Funn
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:35:18 -
[934] - Quote
Focus less on UI and ship/game mechanics, and more on new ship classes, modules, and ship rebalances. The latter will make the game more enjoyable. |
Jeff Kione
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
17
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:45:30 -
[935] - Quote
afkalt wrote:@Marech Bhayanaka: I should perhaps have said throwaway/covops. Sitting in a hole waiting on the rest of the fleet arriving at some point is not a nice thing to do.
We had a NPSI wormhole fleet a while back where we lost a ton of people along the chain because they couldn't keep up, people didn't want to sit around on the wormhole to provide the warp in for too long, etc. What happened to those people? They got left out of the content. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1183
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:48:06 -
[936] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:This is what happens when wormholers don't have a voice in CSM This line of thinking is so tiresome. I bet if CCP said wormholes would be unaffected by this change, you all would move the goal post immediately.
Funny that, because that would mean that they are listening to us and I wouldn't have such a low opinion of them in the first place. |
Kaliba Mort
Patriotic Tendencies Executive Outcomes
15
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:48:53 -
[937] - Quote
1. get a cov ops prober 2. get cov ops in perfect position in plex, target, warp in, whatever 3. fleet warp to cov. op. 4. profit
There is no ??? here. It's straight forward and simple.
Then you still have "warp with slowest member of fleet", and you have even better positioning than just warping at range to some probe result. You have eyes on target. You can send dictor ahead of main fleet to bubble up before fleet lands.
Overall, good change. Much less of a change than jump changes and upcoming sov changes.
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Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
249
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:49:18 -
[938] - Quote
Every competent -10 gank fleet starts with fleet warping to an instant undock bookmark. Any waiting in system requires fleet warping to safes, this is mechanically enforced by facpol and a gank fleet is completely useless if the whole fleet does not land on the target together. Do you want to kill gank fleets entirely? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1671
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:53:48 -
[939] - Quote
This change also makes multi-language fleets more difficult.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Na'hkin Oaks
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:54:00 -
[940] - Quote
Whoever thought of this flamboyant idea should take a 20% pay cut. |
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Tia Mong
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:02:01 -
[941] - Quote
With the amount of stuff that could use some tweaking and repairing to better enhance the game I would have to say this should be a low priority on the totem pole. It brings myself to question what steps you came from to get this on your deployment radar and why this would come as a desire for change. You have mapping issues, Alliance book marking shares, and a laundry list more of stuff that could be focused on other then... in perspective finding a way to add a toilet to an automobile because no one has one. Judging from your overall changes that you typically make you should spend more time looking over game issues and work on them to harmonize your gamers experience then chasing non-essentials.
just my 2 isk... |
Elona Solette
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:06:15 -
[942] - Quote
The idea floating around that you allow probers to broadcast their results to the fleet seems a more elegant solution than probing dictators putting WWWs in fleet.
Retains the requirement for people to press their own movement buttons and does away with the WWWs mucking around.
Flying your own ship is a good thing btw. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
359
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:08:22 -
[943] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Every competent -10 gank fleet starts with fleet warping to an instant undock bookmark. Any waiting in system requires fleet warping to safes, this is mechanically enforced by facpol and a gank fleet is completely useless if the whole fleet does not land on the target together. Do you want to kill gank fleets entirely?
Harder yes, impossible not at all.
Put a cloaky dude at on offgrid instant bookmark; fleet undock, warp to Cloaky McEyes @ 100. Depending on the final destination, you may need one or two more such alts to complete said gank. I must admit it is a little bit more work and requires more characters, so I hear you there. Every good gank-commander I've known has at least 2 though so i wouldn't expect to see considerably less ganking. I used to warp catalysts directly to undock bookmarks and on top of barges with probes before too...and there is a lot of friction and timing issues with these fleets. Yeah this is a bit dumb.
Actually yeah after some amount of consideration, this is just another railroading of yet another playstyle care of the current meta and bombers.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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didthat hurt
Delayed Effect
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:10:47 -
[944] - Quote
Your initial goal from this was to nerf bombers:
Quote:The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers).
However, you have not nerfed bombers but have altered all styles of gameplay in a completely unnecessary manner.
You openly acknowledge bombers are a problem, as do we. Every player in null and every staff member at CCP knows they are a problem so just nerf them already. Take away all resistances for bombs so that they destroy themselves when launched en masse.
Quote:[UPDATE 2015-06-12] Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes! A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet.
Quote:......no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldnGÇÖt warp to on their own.
Q: What if every member of the fleet has the bookmark? A: Nope, sorry, no go.
Obviously you haven't put enough thought into this. You have an idea in your mind of what you want: nerfed bombers. This is a terrible way of doing that, and I know you agree.
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stoicfaux
5891
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:14:12 -
[945] - Quote
[tinfoil] This sounds like a back end run to set up a situation by introducing a problem (fleet warp change) that is then restored via an "expedited fleet warp" module only usable by Command BCs/T3s which then conveniently leads into "links now only work on-grid" (because, hey, your BC/T3 is on grid already...) [/tinfoil]
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
129
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:19:27 -
[946] - Quote
Since warping to fleet member is still enabled this would drive people to create alts for jump targets.. Which is pretty lame.. I own 2 accounts but I am still against multiboxing as its a feature that will make it harder for new people to come to PVP driven game as they realize the game is not meant to be played by one account.
Also what comes to WH space this will make it much less enjoyable or fun to live in WH.
Interested to hear how CCP is planning to counter the negative impact of the change.. Surely hope they don't think that people start subscribing more accounts for fleet warp alts. |
Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
249
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:21:02 -
[947] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Masao Kurata wrote:Every competent -10 gank fleet starts with fleet warping to an instant undock bookmark. Any waiting in system requires fleet warping to safes, this is mechanically enforced by facpol and a gank fleet is completely useless if the whole fleet does not land on the target together. Do you want to kill gank fleets entirely? Harder yes, impossible not at all.
"Kill entirely" was an overstatement, I'm aware of this. But some FCs just won't bother any more. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
83
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:26:03 -
[948] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:[tinfoil] This sounds like a back end run to set up a situation by introducing a problem (fleet warp change) that is then restored via an "expedited fleet warp" module only usable by Command BCs/T3s which then conveniently leads into "links now only work on-grid" (because, hey, your BC/T3 is on grid already...) [/tinfoil]
[tinfoil] I'd actually not mind that. Much. [opinion There should be a slew of different things that only specialized ships with specialized modules should be able to do. [/opinion] Especially of it was still doable to do squad warps. [/tinfoil] |
kyoukoku
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
34
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:30:21 -
[949] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[UPDATE 2015-06-12] Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes! A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet.
So don't fraking well implement the nerf on Fleet Warp to BM's until you've explored all side effects and taken steps to resolve the issues properly!!
Don't lump this in with fixing whatever issues exist with Bombers.
There's no point in releasing it as you've described it to us thus far, annoying the crap out of what is likely to be a large percentage of your playerbase, only to have to reverse some or all of the damage you've done at a later date, because that will be a huge waste of your time & resources which could've been put to much better use.
I'm all for increasing the level of teamwork & interaction between actual real people, and not increasing the legions of alts & huge fleets made up of huge scale multi-boxer setups (I have no problem with small scale multi-box/multi-client players as I have 2 accounts myself), but please think things through properly and consider the effects on everyone in all corners of New Eden. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
633
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:35:17 -
[950] - Quote
If bombers are the issue, why not give the bomb launcher a spool-up timer like a MJD. That way they can't land and immediately fire their bombs. |
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Alexis Crane Sharvas
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
3
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:42:23 -
[951] - Quote
I'll very simply say this does nothing to help improve fleet member involvement. This is a horribad idea. Terrible. Worse than jump fatigue. I wish we could get back to patches/changes that made the game more fun or interesting or worthwhile....instead of trying to make things more difficult. That's all that results here.....you are making some aspect of the game more difficult. That's counter intuitive imho. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2498
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:42:53 -
[952] - Quote
didthat hurt wrote:Your initial goal from this was to nerf bombers: Since when? |
Ponder Yonder
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
70
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:51:01 -
[953] - Quote
Dear CCP,
I can understand the benefits this change would have to fleet warfare, but I think there are 2 use cases that will suffer unduly: 1. Micro-fleets, i.e. 5 or less pilots ganging up for beer and bad-assery. Not being able to have coordinated warp-ins to targets of opportunity will hurt this play style. 2. Legitimate multi-boxers. I.e. players with multiple accounts playing Eve on multiple machines or monitors. These are your best customers, CCP. When multi-boxing, fleet warps are absolutely required. Individual warps simply can't be managed by a single human.
In order to address these two use cases I would propose that the intended changes apply to FLEET warps only. Leave SQUAD warps as they are. Squad commanders should be able to warp squad to bookmarks, etc., while fleet commanders can only warp to public objects.
This will allow the above two playstyles to continue without adverse effects and will bring additional benefits: 1. Squad commanders get operational responsibility 2. Squad commanders have a role, apart from 'filling a hole in the fleet hierarchy' 3. Squad command becomes a stepping stone on the path to FC. 4. Provides a better distinction of roles in fleets: FC's can focus on strategic decisions, while squad commanders are more focused on tactical decisions.
I believe this proposal is in line with your objectives of increasing player contribution to fleet operations and will reward those fleets with better organisational and managerial skills, while also opening a career progression path not previously available.
- Ponder |
DaReaper
Net 7
2206
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:58:26 -
[954] - Quote
kyoukoku wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote:
[UPDATE 2015-06-12] Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes! A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet.
So don't fraking well implement the nerf on Fleet Warp to BM's until you've explored all side effects and taken steps to resolve the issues properly!!
this is why they as for feedback. The devs are human, and a lot of times, humans can't see the logical conclution or issues with there own ideas. And if you have a room full of like minded people, who are just looking at numbers, it gets harder for someone to say 'wait this is bad cause' because they ALL have the same info.
Add in 12 CSM members, lets go with an even split on agree/disagree, but just hearing for 6 people might make the room go 'oh you are over blowing things; or again, the 6 against may not be giving convincing arguments as to why this is bad.
So here is the hive mind. you place these ideas out there, and see where the trouble lies, then based on the info make changes.
In some cases, the trouble was an acceptable issue (jump fatigue making logistics hard) or the toruble will be dead based on a second feature or something else coming thats not linked to a change.
but offten times logical, concise, fact filled replies of 'no you are incorrect because of this' will make someone pause and go 'oh.. oops missed that'
this is why they do feed back. The alternative is to tell you nothing, and you find out on patch day.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
264
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:59:56 -
[955] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Mates, The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week. Have a great weekend! Another question: when the new structures, such as Citadels, come into the game, will fleet warp work with them as well? |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
34
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:02:02 -
[956] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:[UPDATE 2015-06-12] Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes! A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet.
Is just not applying this change at all off the table? |
The Boogieman
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:08:46 -
[957] - Quote
Dunk Dinkle wrote:It appears that to nerf bombers, you are nerfing all fleets.
This, of course, has become the new way things are done around the office. It's the same principle that is currently strangling eve and causing so many cancellations in the thousands. Nerfing the entire game to stop single individuals or several individuals with "too much power", because certain people with influence at the top lose sleep over it.
It is the cancer killing eve and if it doesent stop, will incrementally cause its collapse. Making nerfs to the entire games player base because of a couple of people.
Welcome, to the World of Warcraft.
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SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
296
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:18:38 -
[958] - Quote
The Boogieman wrote:Dunk Dinkle wrote:It appears that to nerf bombers, you are nerfing all fleets. This, of course, has become the new way things are done around the office. It's the same principle that is currently strangling eve and causing so many cancellations in the thousands. Nerfing the entire game to stop single individuals or several individuals with "too much power", because certain people with influence at the top lose sleep over it. It is the cancer killing eve and if it doesent stop, will incrementally cause its collapse. Making nerfs to the entire games player base because of a couple of people. Welcome, to the World of Warcraft. So because you now how to fly your ship, the game has turned into WoW?
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:22:30 -
[959] - Quote
The Boogieman wrote:Dunk Dinkle wrote:It appears that to nerf bombers, you are nerfing all fleets. This, of course, has become the new way things are done around the office. It's the same principle that is currently strangling eve and causing so many cancellations in the thousands. Nerfing the entire game to stop single individuals or several individuals with "too much power", because certain people with influence at the top lose sleep over it. It is the cancer killing eve and if it doesent stop, will incrementally cause its collapse. Making nerfs to the entire games player base because of a couple of people. Welcome, to the World of Warcraft. Indeed
CCP "We need to nerf ishtars"
*Nerfs all sentry drones*
CCP "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!"
In comparison this nerf is astoundingly specifically targeted. I do find the willingness to make further adjustments to the nerf and the acknowledgement that it is hitting people it's not intended to hit good. I just hope they follow through with tweaking the nerf to be more friendly to those not intentionally being targeted. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
405
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:25:01 -
[960] - Quote
I see this as a single solution to fix multiple problems:
1. Bombers are OP and mess up the doctrines available in nullsec 2. Probing and warping to fleets on grid messes up the doctrines available.
Instead of making the fleet warp changes, why not do the following:
1. Disallow fleet warp to anything on grid. If you want to fleet warp, you have to warp off to a different grid and then back. If you want to warp directly to the fleet, you need a scout to get on top of the enemy same as the CCP proposal. However, all the other downsides are removed.
2. Nerf the crap out of bombers by removing a lot of the bomb resistances. Make it so that you cannot have a bomb surviving more than 2-3 other bomb explosions. Bombers were originally an anti-blob mechanism to discourage people from forming giant blob fleets. However, with Fozzie-Sov providing its own anti-blob carrots bombers aren't needed as much to "reduce the blob".
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