I think it's coo mang

also how bout a rev buff this patch as well

capital torps = 20 m/sec explosion velocity
2000 m explosion radius

after change:

35 m/sec explosion velocity
3000 m explosion radius

that is not good

ultra heavy nerf to rigors

dunno why the dev team have such a boner for destroying missiles as a legitimate alternative to drones or guns

Now if only missiles didn't have a flight time, the phoenix might be useful.

Also, this is kinda an indirect buff to rags, which is hilarious. (Armor caps with rag boosts take ~40% less damage from citadel torps)

One side effect of such significant changes is that the Torps would start doing reduced damage to starbase modules and to small towers themselves. So we're increasing the sig radius of all starbase structures that sit outside the shields from 2000 to 3000, small towers from 2000 to 4000 and medium towers from 4000 to 5000.


Let me know what you think.

The goals are to significantly improve the Phoenix for use against other caps (especially moving caps) and structures while avoiding turning it into some kind of subcap blapping monster.

rag boosts are garbage, no real reason to use them over a loki/tengu/proteus

40% damage reduction is a pretty great bonus tbh. I mean, in any other situation they're garbage, but since we're living ina world where people fly phoenixes, might as well pretend people will use rags.

Okay, time to eat some humble pie. I can't remember, for the life of me -- did Guided Missile Precision get changed to affect torpedoes, HAMs, and rockets? Checking chruker.dk leads me to believe this is the case, since all missiles have the "aimedLaunch" property at 1, but I can't find any indication from Google that this was changed.

If Guided Missile Precision affects capital torps, then the 50% increase in explosion radius isn't quite as bad as it looks.

For all the people moaning about increased Explosion Radius...

1. TPs work on capital ships as well as subcaps (when they're not in siege/triage)
2. Capital rigor rigs reduce explosion radii by 15% for T1 and 20% for T2

So there might be a new "standard phoenix fit". So what. That's not unusual after a significant rebalance like this.

theyre increasing poses from 2k to 3k so they can apply damage

dreads/carriers are around 2.9k~ without links and sub 2k with

engage your brain

For all the people moaning about increased Explosion Radius...

1. TPs work on capital ships as well as subcaps (when they're not in siege/triage)
2. Capital rigor rigs reduce explosion radii by 15% for T1 and 20% for T2

So there might be a new "standard phoenix fit". So what. That's not unusual after a significant rebalance like this.

So, you don't know if it does or not. Thanks for sharing.

For all the people moaning about increased Explosion Radius...

1. TPs work on capital ships as well as subcaps (when they're not in siege/triage)
2. Capital rigor rigs reduce explosion radii by 15% for T1 and 20% for T2

So there might be a new "standard phoenix fit". So what. That's not unusual after a significant rebalance like this.

I suspect the people that think this is a major buff don't use phoenixes and are assuming only a cruel god would nerf them at this point.

Right now the biggest weakness they have is that they need 2 rapiers on grid to so much as touch battleships. Now carriers sig tank them. There was always a running joke of carriers speed tanking them but they almost never did. Now we need carriers to light micros to hit them for full damage which I'd call way worse.

It doesn't: 2k is current max, 3k is new.

Brain engaged.

Is this back calculated from the flippant comment's vignette about the situation or is it a result of actually knowing? It's entirely possible that the increase in POS module signature radiuses was performed without taking skills into account. It's not a very good indicator of reality.

Is this back calculated from the flippant comment's vignette about the situation or is it a result of actually knowing? It's entirely possible that the increase in POS module signature radiuses was performed without taking skills into account. It's not a very good indicator of reality.

GMP does affect citadel torps, so at GMP V, citadel torps will have 2250 radius, which is larger than most linked armor caps (shield caps get hit for full damage).

With 52.5 explosion velocity, they won't get speed tanked too badly by moving caps, the target speed/exp velocity ratio against a moving carrier drops from ~2.5 to 1.5 (other than the nid).

In practice this should be about 30-50% more DPS against moving caps.

Guided Missile Precision does indeed apply to all Citadel Missiles.

Settle down kids.

so you're saying ccp are either increasing pos sig radii for no reason

OR

ccp are nerfing pheonix damage to stationary sieged dreads into the ground

i'm glad we agree on one thing

Guided Missile Precision does indeed apply to all Citadel Missiles.

Settle down kids.

Guided Missile Precision does indeed apply to all Citadel Missiles.

Settle down kids.

We're buffing the explosion velocity of Citadel Cruises by 38%, and nerfing their explosion radius by 14%.
We're buffing the explosion velocity of Citadel Torps by 75%, and nerfing their explosion radius by 50%.

One side effect of such significant changes is that the Torps would start doing reduced damage to starbase modules and to small towers themselves. So we're increasing the sig radius of all starbase structures that sit outside the shields from 2000 to 3000, small towers from 2000 to 4000 and medium towers from 4000 to 5000.

Let me know what you think.

Unless UI is lying to me (which is very well may) it doesn't right now.

It's probably just being done so that if you have GMP at zero, you aren't at a disadvantage for shooting stationary structures, since missiles still enjoy damage reduction if the thing you are shooting is smaller than the explosion radius of the missile you are firing, regardless of whether it moves or not.

noone said otherwise

what we're talking about is that you increased pos mods to 3k so they'd get hit for decent damage, and yet sieged dreads sit sub 2k

that's quite the stretch you must admit

They only sit sub 2k if they have a ragnarok passing bonuses in fleet.

I mean, if you want to bring a ragnarok with you on every single pos shot that you do on the off chance that a phoenix fleet shows up, so you can take 90% of the damage you would otherwise just by dint of your ragnarok bonuses, then I'd say go hog wild.

I won't rule out a UI bug. If so please file a bug report and we'll get our best people on it.

Read the post above yours. :V

that's quite the stretch you must admit

edit: looks like you were either right or fozzie saw what you said and decided it fit the bill
66% sized topes etc

You think I secretly went back in time and made GMP apply to Citadel Missiles back in Retribution just to make you look bad?

You think I secretly went back in time and made GMP apply to Citadel Missiles back in Retribution just to make you look bad?

Hey fozzie, ran some EFT tests with the new numbers, and they still aren't very rosy.

After patch, a all LV5 character will have torps at 2250 explosion radius, 52.5 explosion velocity.

Against linked carriers moving at full speed, the new torps are still only able to apply 60% of their nominal damage, while certainly better than the 50% now, it's still pretty pathetic. The explosion radius change means against linked armor carriers (using an archon for example) it's not possible to even hit a carrier standing still for full damage, because the sig of the carrier is now below the sig for the torps. so the situation arises that you can't hit a triage carrier for full damage because you can't paint them to boost their sig.

First off, by Nerfing the Explosion radius, you me your increasing the value (larger radius)?

Stat || Current (No Skills) || Post (no skills)
Nova torp
Flight : 15s || 7.5s
Velocity: 1750m/s || 3500ms
Radius: 2000m || 3000m
Ex. Vel.: 20m/s || 35m/s

Nova Cruise
Flight : 20s || 15s
Velocity: 4250m/s || ~5700m/s
Radius: 1750m || 2000m
Ex. Vel.: 29m/s || 40m/s

Broken down, the math becomes the following,
Missile Damage = the lowest of:

Base Damage * 1
not allowing more than base damage
Base Damage * (Target signature / explosion radius)
If the target is sitting still, aka "0 missile transversal"
Base Damage * [ (Target signature / explosion radius) * (explosion velocity / Target Velocity) ] ^ [ ln(drf) / ln(5.5)]
If the target is moving


Since the citadel torp drf=5.5, the damage is dependent on explosion velocity and target velocity since all capitals have a sig larger than 2000 (the explosion radius of a citadel torp). So if the explosion velocity is 30 and the target velocity in a moving archon is up to 70 (base):

Base damage * [ (2920 / 2000) * (30 / 70) ] ^ 1
Base damage * [ (1.46) * (0.43) ]
Base damage * (0.62)

OK, so at first i was worried that the Explosion radius was a bit much. After seeing that GMP does hit capital missiles, that would be up to a 25% reduction in sig.

After reviewing my old post:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4079522#post4079522


Here is some math:




old real math (30m was the velocity i made up without nerfing the radius)
Base damage * [ (2920 / 2000) * (20 / 70) ] ^ 1
Base damage * [ (1.46) * (0.28) ]
Base damage * (0.40)

New Torp:
Base damage * [ (2920 / 3000) * (35 / 70) ] ^ 1
Base damage * [ (0.97) * (0.5) ]
Base damage * (0.48)



While the ROF does give better DPS, I would rather have a less hard nerf onto the Radius in place of the ROF boost of the modules.

Why exactly is it a problem if the Phoenix can damage stationary subcaps? Every other dread can, and won't suffer the radius penalties that the phoenix will.

It might not be a problem, but I felt it was worth mentioning to help color the discussion. Certainly, if you are flying an armor BS, you care a lot less about it than you would if you are flying a shield BS.

I dont normally log in to post but this is by far the worst change I've seen in the past few blunders you've put out.

It's too much to expect a phoenix can 1 shot bc's with torps with webs and 3 rigs entirely devoted to bringing down radius?

Really?

50% radius increase is a ******* joke, velocity means jack anyway when dealing with these numbers - why nerf one of the already most niche dreads?

ps thanks lord servant for making fozzie/rise aware of what can be done with the game cus they apparently had no idea XD

The Moros still does way more dps than a torp Phoenix at most torpedo ranges. Citadel cruise missiles still do just as much dps as torpedoes do to unwebbed/painted carrier/dreads and smaller ships. Paper dps with torps will be about 6.7% more than before.

Okay, time to eat some humble pie. I can't remember, for the life of me -- did Guided Missile Precision get changed to affect torpedoes, HAMs, and rockets? Checking chruker.dk leads me to believe this is the case, since all missiles have the "aimedLaunch" property at 1, but I can't find any indication from Google that this was changed.

If Guided Missile Precision affects capital torps, then the 50% increase in explosion radius isn't quite as bad as it looks.

when is subcap 'blapping' getting fixed?

Edit: Can we please also get a look at missile HP? If phoenixes are going to become usable in fleets, you can be sure someone will remember how to setup firewalls. No other dread can have it's damage negated by a few well-placed battleships, that shouldn't be true for the phoenix either.

The problem is the missiles themselves, not the dreadnought, as far as I see it.

Wouldn't the solution be to remove the velocity factor from the equation on citadel sized missiles?

Any other dread will hit a stationary target, regardless of size ( even shuttles ) for near full damage. A citadel cruise/torp will hit a stationary shuttle for like 0.1 damage because of the sig radius factor.
If people are stupid enough to be sitting at 0 m/s ( sub-cap ) shouldn't they deserve the same punishment any other dread can dish out?

Secondly, multiply the missiles velocity by 10 or something.. If a Phoenix and a Moros decide to start fighting each other at 50 km, the Moros will hit the Phoenix twice before the first salvo of missiles hit.. That way the Phoenix is always going to loose. Delayed damage is bad m'kay..
Also because missiles are expensive.. You cannot stop shooting before your target explode and that means at least 1 wasted flight of missiles.. ISK right out of the pilots pocket.. A problem other dreads don't have.

And as so many other have already mentioned, TP's don't work on a sieged dread/carrier because of e-war immunity so reduce the sig radius factor a little

As alarmed as I am at the sig radius nerf, I don't actually see this being too much of an issue as long as there are TPs on field lighting up the primary.

Is this a joke or do you seriously not understand how explosion radius works? Unline turrets, the relative radius of a missile in relation to its target works AGAINST its maximum dps. The BS your spouting is in fact, BS because it means that the nerf to sig radius makes it HARDER to hit subcapital targets.

As alarmed as I am at the sig radius nerf, I don't actually see this being too much of an issue as long as there are TPs on field lighting up the primary.

Hey fozzie, ran some EFT tests with the new numbers, and they still aren't very rosy.

After patch, a all LV5 character will have torps at 2250 explosion radius, 52.5 explosion velocity.

Against linked carriers moving at full speed, the new torps are still only able to apply 60% of their nominal damage, while certainly better than the 50% now, it's still pretty pathetic. The explosion radius change means against linked armor carriers (using an archon for example) it's not possible to even hit a carrier standing still for full damage, because the sig of the carrier is now below the sig for the torps.

So the situation arises that you can't hit a triage carrier for full damage because you can't paint them to boost their sig.

Hey guys, we made some tweaks to the Phoenix, and during this process we resized our changes would mean the Phoenix can't hit a structure sitting in space for full damage, so we made the effective size of structures bigger. - CCP

CCP are unmatched in their ability to troll their user base, damn

What will the pheonix tank look like in comparison to the revealation now? better, worse, or about the same?

Hey guys, we made some tweaks to the Phoenix, and during this process we resized our changes would mean the Phoenix can't hit a structure sitting in space for full damage, so we made the effective size of structures bigger. - CCP

CCP are unmatched in their ability to troll their user base, damn

Uhm, slave set works on capitals? Yes!

Crystal set works on capitals? No!

What say you?

Gotta agree with this. It might not be something you can get done for this expansion Foz, but either make slaves NOT work with caps, or make Crystals work with caps. Choose, sir!

So compiling every post together would everyone agree that they should either look into a sig increase for all siege modules (siege/triage/bastion) which is more balanced in my opinion and I'll explain why I think so. Or reduce the sig radius moderately on the missiles themselves. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here, just a post compiling the two suggested changes. Personally I feel like whatever harmful effects they are trying to avoid by making the explosion radius smaller/better is not really going to be a problem with an "MWD" style bloom from a siege module class. Also I feel like this has no real negative effect for anything else as well. Throw it on SiSi and see if it's too strong and if it looks like citadel torps doing full damage to a capital in a sieged cycle of any kind is too strong. Take it off and let us know you think thats not a good idea. At that point I'll be glad I can fly the two other dreads and be on my way. :)

2) In the missile damage formula, the Explosion Radius and Explosion Velocity are multiplied together. For example, imagine you're shooting a missile with 100 Explosion Radius and 50 Explosion Velocity at a target with a signature of 200 and speed of 100. (200/100)*(50/100) = 1, which means that you will hit him for full damage even though he "should be" speed tanking your missiles. A lot of people don't understand this properly.

All these tears

Just gonna point out, very rarely dreads apply full damage to other capitals.
Guns have an optimal range, the likelyhood of a moros applying full damage with antimatter (15k optimal) is low
Guns also have tracking, if you think a turret dread will hit a carrier for full damage while it's moving at close range, you're wrong.

As proven recently, the phoenix has great potential to kill subcaps, including a subcap sitting and orbiting at 500, no other dread is able to do that, if you wanna hit a BC in a moros it needs to be double webbed and painted and be at ~15k, and you're sure as **** not going to do full damage to it.


Not that this tweak changes anything, you will still be mocked for using the phoenix.

That's sort of the point of missiles. Dank, reliable application at the cost of your damage being delayed, and for better or worse, transversal not helping or ruining you.

The way I see it, the quandary here is that in the struggle to keep Citadel missiles from 1-shotting subcaps, you're finding that capital ships here may indeed have sigs that are TOO SMALL for their damage and EHP.

I agree that this is an issue, and the extremely high alpha associated with citadel missiles makes this a valid concern.

Has there been any consideration of cutting the size / damage of each individual missile in half? Half the damage per missile, twice the rate of fire, half the production cost. This would make the alpha less dangerous & easier to handle with RR, allowing Phoenixes & gun dreads to be a roughly equivalent threat to subcaps. So long as capitals can support sub-caps (Triage), it's also reasonable for dreads to threaten sub-caps when supported properly.

Fozzie, if your intent is to make the Phoenix an anti-capital platform primarily, that's all well and good, but so long as it doesn't exceed some proportion of a Moros / Nag's anti-subcap capability, there's no need to compromise it's anti-capital damage application.

Hey guys, we have a pass on the Phoenix and Citadel Missiles for your feedback. The goals are to significantly improve the Phoenix for use against other caps (especially moving caps) and structures while avoiding turning it into some kind of subcap blapping monster.

Let me know what you think.

I'm gonna chime in on the side of most of the dissenting voices here.

Yes, this is overall a buff to the Phoenix. Yes, I'm glad to be seeing this happen, and universal damage is long overdue on this lame duck of dreadnoughts.

However, the tweaks to Citadel explosion velocity vs. explosion radius do seem marginally unfavorable: Skirmish links will provide an 11.4% reduction to damage taken by a sieged Moros, while a Ragnarok will provide closer to 15%. For the other three dreads fit with armor the situation is even a bit worse. Maxed out, a Ragnarok can get down to a 1205m sig radius, smaller than a microwarping battleship. Certainly futzing around with making your caps speed tank each other is a cool mechanic to leave open for the player base to experiment with, but allowing a dread that is sitting still to take less damage from Phoenixes only, just because you are buffing up your sig with Halos and links, is a bad precedent.

The way I see it, the quandary here is that in the struggle to keep Citadel missiles from 1-shotting subcaps, you're finding that capital ships here may indeed have sigs that are TOO SMALL for their damage and EHP. I urge you to consider the following:

* Leave the Citadel missile changes as they are. 2250m explosion radius for citadel torps is probably fine.
* Increase all Dreadnought signature radius and sensor strength by 50%

and

* Increase all Carrier signature radius by 50%
-OR-
* Increase all Carrier signature radius by 25% and increase signature radius while in Triage by 20% (for a total of 50%)

The main difficulty here is clearly not with Dreadnoughts; while increasing sig radius the ship becomes easier to probe; increasing sensor strength to compensate on a dreadnought is unimportant because they can't do much of use when they are actually jammable. Carriers are a different problem; one must be willing to either make them a bit easier to probe, or risk making them nigh impossible to jam with ECM. Nonetheless, I believe these changes should solve the issue, allowing capital weapons and ships to exist on a more consummate scale with their power while providing only a minor side effect in making Carriers slightly easier to find with combat probes.

It already sucks against subcaps. Nobody wants to fly a crap-mobile that cannot even hope to kill subcaps. Every other dread can happily blap subcaps off the field, but your idea of balance is to make it even more worthless by relegating it to structure grinds (95% of people flying it will be using it for this) and the occasional cap kill. Even for structure grinds, the phoenix will still do less dps then a moros so why would I want a dread that is inferior in pretty much everything vs moros except for tank and capless guns? The simple answer is I wouldn't and people will continue to skill for moros>nag after such a worthless change.

edit: If you want to balance them properly, then let them be able to kill subcaps, like every other dread in the game.

The way I see it, the quandary here is that in the struggle to keep Citadel missiles from 1-shotting subcaps, you're finding that capital ships here may indeed have sigs that are TOO SMALL for their damage and EHP. .

The main problem is that the Phoenix is the only dread in the game whose damage-application rigs have no stacking penalty and stack "subtractively" rather than "additively". I forget the correct word for that second part, but the gist of the matter is that 3 rigs on a Phoenix give a 84% boost to 'tracking', while 3 rigs on any other dread only give 50% boost to tracking. For comparison, your standard blap-fit Moros (1 TE, 2 speed-scripted TC, 2 optimal-scripted TC) gets a 72% tracking boost when T2-fit and a 86% boost when faction-fit.


One could argue that to fix blap Phoenixes, you'd just have to bring their 'tracking' rigs in line with other dreadnoughts.

Edit: Edited my edit out, as it was a stupid edit.

The key difference being that guns have Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers, while missiles have nothing of the sort. There is literally only one viable way to locally improve missile application and that is Rigors. Fitting webs/paints isn't local, and aren't exclusive to missile damage.

The key difference being that guns have Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers, while missiles have nothing of the sort. There is literally only one viable way to locally improve missile application and that is Rigors. Fitting webs/paints isn't local, and aren't exclusive to missile damage.

Missiles always hit, they auto track their targets. Applying damage with missiles requires webs and painters. These are your friends.

Like others in this thread, I'm currently at the opinion that you balance the blap Phoenix by reducing its alpha. From my perspective, the only scary thing about blap Phoenixes is the possibility of point-blank alpha-ing competent Guardians in WH engagements (where you can't just bring extra cap support). Currently that's only possible if you bring a Rapier, which dies very quickly if it's not storyline-fit, with armor links, and a Slave set on top of it all. I feel that's far from overpowering.

A possible alternative to nerfing alpha is to nerf the DRF instead. That will reduce damage against small stuff, enabling the torp explosion radius nerf to be dialled back to avoid the Evasive Manoeuvres problem of reduced damage against stationary capitals.

Forgive my squirrely ignorance, I've heard most of the terms used in Eve so far. But what exactly is DRF? Thats never come up before this thread. At least in anything I was reading.

[snip]
Honestly, I can understand why Fozzie is being so cautious. Now try it with a bonused TP from say a Vigil, Hyena, Rapier, or Huginn. One of these linked using a Domination TP overheated, you can get a 99.87% sigRad bonus per module. Now stack 3 of those. The bonus gets pretty insane. That 400m turns into 2350, and suddenly he will take a ****-tonne of damage.

Target painters are much more effective than they used to be, especially for blapping. But that doesn't fix the issue of reduced damage to linked carrier and dreads, and them being immune to EWAR when sieged/triaged.

But I also think we shouldn't get too worried about the blap Phoenix. Yes the alpha is scary, but it requires specific fits and support, and you can get very similar results with similar fits and support on the turret dreads, particularly when more than one is involved. Put a few Moroses/Nags 40 km apart with webs and linked, bonused painting support and you get a similar result.

Let me know what you think.

As alarmed as I am at the sig radius nerf, I don't actually see this being too much of an issue as long as there are TPs on field lighting up the primary.

Words

A triage Archon with links will have 1956m sig radius, and move at 0ms.

Just want to take this opportunity to point out that dreads and carriers very rarely are at 0 m/s in an ongoing fleet fight. Last capital fight I was involved in, my Moros was sieged and doing almost 100 m/s from a post-jump-and-siege bump. So, in an actual game situation, a phoenix would be doing a pretty horrible percentage of full damage to that Moros before these changes and after.

Caps jumping into a large fight are going to be moving. Dreads are bouncing all over the place after they enter siege. Supers will be aligned at full speed (which is more than exp velocity both before and after this change). Carriers (with sentry carriers soon to be a thing of the past) will likely also be moving as well.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the damage calculation for missiles which has led to this situation where a Phoenix is far better at blapping undocking subcaps than it can be in a fleet fight. This change will slightly nerf their ability to undock camp, no doubt. It will not be a functional capital ship in a fleet fight.

These changes remind me of PL's ill-fated attempt at making Ravens a fleet comp. "They're really good on paper..." was repeated every time the comp lost to a more traditional comp. The changes to the Raven were heralded in the same fashion as the changes to the Phoenix are being heralded right now. Eve trailers aside, Phoenixes and Ravens aren't going to be fleet comps, because of the underlying missile damage mechanics, without horribly unbalancing them in specialized settings. Unfortunately, there isn't much demand for mission running dreads so keep an eye out on the station undock.

Daily reminder that the Rev should get this Resistance + Damage boost

I would be in favor of a dreadnaught sig increase due to the actually large size and mass difference between them and carriers, assuming it's an offset to the coming dread buff which would include (but not be limited to) the following:
-Moros and Naglfar get respective bonuses to armor and shield repair
-All including Rev get a 10% damage bonus per level
-Rev turns into alt version of phoenix with 4% resists per level
-All see buffs to capacitor, sensor strength, sig res
-All see slight nerf to overall hp, but buff more towards their respective hp tank type
-Ammo capacity inceased, especially on missiles, to ensure magazine lasts all the way through siege

Both might be too much. Actually, I don't think the Rev's problem is damage, I think it's range. GIving it more damage just further homogenises the turret dreads' DPS. The Rev's focus should be damage projection, but currently the Moros is greatly superior at this. Boost Rev optimal, nerf Moros/Naglfar optimal and falloff. Then see where we are.

Revelations are still very strong, but they're most notably strong with capital beams. Certainly the Revelation may have generally underwhelming projection in the 30-70km envelope, but it begins to truly shine at 100km and beyond. Capital beams, and indeed sniping dreads in general, have recently fallen out of favor with the proliferation of supercarriers and kin -- and thus we are seeing a marked decrease in the relative popularity of the former king of dreads.

This argument is nonsensical. Losing out on a 25% damage bonus compared to its turret dread counterparts means that regardless of whether it is using Beams or Pulses, the Rev will be out damaged at any range, all at a higher cap use.

The way they are going with the phoenix provides a solution to the problem the Rev has, without just being boring and giving it a double damage bonus. It NEEDS a redeeming factor for its lower damage and tracking and a reason/specialty to be used over the Nag and Moros. Tankiness is an attractive option, while also getting rid of that disgusting cap usage bonus that is a cop out , and really is just a mitigation of a outdated balancing penalty.

This change could create OPTIONS for pilots looking to train for a dread, as well as fleets looking to accomplish a certain task.

Higher Damage: Moros & Naglfar

Higher Tank: Revelation & Phoenix

Shield Preference: Phoenix & Naglfar

Armor Preference: Revelation & Moros

Capless/Selectable Damage Type: Phoenix & Naglfar

Faster/Instant Reloads/Range Swaps: Moros/Revelation

Tracking: Moros & Naglfar

Projection: Revelation & Phoenix

The phoenix change has been a LONG time coming, especially since the Moros has reigned supreme for years (since what? Fall 2011 with Crucible?) until the naglfar buff

Sniping dreads are not viable in the current meta outside very specific situations, and as I said earlier, it will still lose out with beams due to having 25% lower damage.

Trinkets Friendly research laboratories has conducted research on Battleships versus Frigates using cruise missiles. The two contenders are the Raven and Typhoon.

The Typhoon gets a hull-based explosion velocity bonus. The Raven get some naff, useless missile velocity bonus.
The Typhoon can armour tank (if it wants) and can fit twin TP's. The Raven can't really armour tank, so it can't really fit a spare EWAR mod without being a complete joke at tanking.
Both can triple rigor rig and use Precisions, and attain a explosion radius of ~120m. The Typhoon gets a much more handy explosion velocity and can pump the enemy sig up 90% with twin TP's.

The actual performance of these two BS is starkly different. Sure, the Raven's missiles hit sooner, but the DPS is the same on paper, so who cares if your missiles hit sooner? Like, seriously, irrelevant. It's not like alpha with a turret.

The Typhoon can effectively alpha frigates (yes, including MWDing low-sig armour frigs) whereas the Raven has trouble killing anything. This is tested and proven.

Clearly the difference is that the Typhoon has a hull bonus on explosive velocity and can rig for explosion radius. The Raven can only do one of these, and it is insufficient.

The Phoenix is in the same position as the Raven. Sure, you can triple T2 rigor fit it (for 1.5 bilLOLions), but that just fixes half the problem.

Ergo, the solution is to give the Phoenix a explosion velocity bonus to the hull. Screw fast missiles.

Agreed. The Raven doesnt apply its damage like the Typhoon. Sad really. I'd gladly give up the velocity bonus for a explosion radius bonus. Can't really overpowered if the typhoon gets it.

Trinkets Friendly research laboratories has conducted research on Battleships versus Frigates using cruise missiles. The two contenders are the Raven and Typhoon.

The Typhoon gets a hull-based explosion velocity bonus. The Raven get some naff, useless missile velocity bonus.
The Typhoon can armour tank (if it wants) and can fit twin TP's. The Raven can't really armour tank, so it can't really fit a spare EWAR mod without being a complete joke at tanking.
Both can triple rigor rig and use Precisions, and attain a explosion radius of ~120m. The Typhoon gets a much more handy explosion velocity and can pump the enemy sig up 90% with twin TP's.

The actual performance of these two BS is starkly different. Sure, the Raven's missiles hit sooner, but the DPS is the same on paper, so who cares if your missiles hit sooner? Like, seriously, irrelevant. It's not like alpha with a turret.

The Typhoon can effectively alpha frigates (yes, including MWDing low-sig armour frigs) whereas the Raven has trouble killing anything. This is tested and proven.

Clearly the difference is that the Typhoon has a hull bonus on explosive velocity and can rig for explosion radius. The Raven can only do one of these, and it is insufficient.

The Phoenix is in the same position as the Raven. Sure, you can triple T2 rigor fit it (for 1.5 bilLOLions), but that just fixes half the problem.

Ergo, the solution is to give the Phoenix a explosion velocity bonus to the hull. Screw fast missiles.

Doesn't the Raven move slightly faster and due to the missile velocity, able to fire at longer range? Not that either of those two points would have much of an impact anyway, I pretty much agree with your statement.

Actually the phoon is faster than the Raven, you can armor tank the phoon with rigs and plates and still be faster.

I like the ability to use any damage type, but the Citadel Torpedoes are already overpowered as is.

With a Capital Rigor Catalyst rig, 2 target painters, Meta launchers and Faction missiles, I can instapop moving battleships (tested on tanked fit Navy Scorpion and Abaddon) and even hit frigates for significant damage

So honestly, there is no real need to buff their damge. 14,125 dps in T2 Siege mode is already on the higher end of the deadnought spectrum.

Yes, I'm a nearly maxed Phoenix Pilot turning down a buff. :)

Doesn't the Raven move slightly faster and due to the missile velocity, able to fire at longer range? Not that either of those two points would have much of an impact anyway, I pretty much agree with your statement.

Trinkets Friendly research laboratories has conducted research on Battleships versus Frigates using cruise missiles. The two contenders are the Raven and Typhoon.

The Typhoon gets a hull-based explosion velocity bonus. The Raven get some naff, useless missile velocity bonus.
The Typhoon can armour tank (if it wants) and can fit twin TP's. The Raven can't really armour tank, so it can't really fit a spare EWAR mod without being a complete joke at tanking.
Both can triple rigor rig and use Precisions, and attain a explosion radius of ~120m. The Typhoon gets a much more handy explosion velocity and can pump the enemy sig up 90% with twin TP's.

The actual performance of these two BS is starkly different. Sure, the Raven's missiles hit sooner, but the DPS is the same on paper, so who cares if your missiles hit sooner? Like, seriously, irrelevant. It's not like alpha with a turret.

The Typhoon can effectively alpha frigates (yes, including MWDing low-sig armour frigs) whereas the Raven has trouble killing anything. This is tested and proven.

Clearly the difference is that the Typhoon has a hull bonus on explosive velocity and can rig for explosion radius. The Raven can only do one of these, and it is insufficient.

The Phoenix is in the same position as the Raven. Sure, you can triple T2 rigor fit it (for 1.5 bilLOLions), but that just fixes half the problem.

Ergo, the solution is to give the Phoenix a explosion velocity bonus to the hull. Screw fast missiles.

This might not be the solution, but this is F&I so I'm just gonna throw it out there.

Rapid Cruise Launchers for the Phoenix.

This would allow it to hit moving objects much better than citadel weapons, at the cost of lower overall maximum damage, and of course you've got that 35 second reload to balance things out a bit too. Could be interesting

I only see 1 kill of a mobile tractor unit. However you may be mission running/sleepers with your Phoenix. Which generally means that you have a poor PVP fit, and you've got friends webbing the targets down also.

The underlying problem with this change is that. The explosion radius will be too large to hit battleships and "instapop" them. And that in an actual PVP situation, you won't be dealing full damage to sieged dreads/triaged carriers, because your TP bonuses go out the window at that point, and they already aren't moving(/ they probably are moving cause something probably bounced them), so you can't make up the damage that way.

With this change, Torp Phoenixes that want full damage application even against other dreads will NEED 3 rigors. Ofcourse players could just switch to Cruises. But again, those have issues with PVP

Question... why does the Caldari ships have lower scan res than their Mimatar counterparts? Isn't lore wise, Caldari suppose to be second only to Jove in technology. So you factor in lower base scan res with the flight time of missiles- it gimps the application of dps a bit.
And yes, i found out that the Phoon is potentially a much better torp boat than the Raven... Nice balance CCP.

Yeah its kinda ridiculous isnt it? Somewhere in game caldari pilots touched devs in their private places and if caldari isnt getting a nerf, then they get a buff with a nerf. All the while minmatar dread gets a huge make over to become darn near the best dread and their missile ships become the best missile boats in game over the missile race...

Funny how that works.

First, let me thank you for asking our opinions rather than just shoving a change down our throats like with the reprocessing nerf.

Standard CCP boilerplate, doesn't mean a thing.

They're going to shove it down your throat like a fluffer @ a **** star convention.


250+ pages of Rapid Light Missile opinions, still ****** responses from Devs.

Thanks for all the valuable input.

Please stop playing Eve.

Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.

Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.

To be honest the whole explosion radius thing is really contrived; a missile hits a stationary target head on, in the face, what do you think will happen?...

(Ok, I suppose you could argue 50% of the blast is radiated away, unless of course it's a 'directed' warhead...)

Really wish the missile system proposed 10 years ago had actually come off (large missiles, very low agility at launch, difficulty hitting manoeuvring, i.e. agile, targets up close)



Edit: for reference to the above, the '2nd' attempt at a missile system (1st being release): http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=79439 (see TomB's comments on 'Big end note')

Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix. The other thing that you are saying is that the Phoenix was crap against sub caps before, and it's crap against sub caps now, so there's really no change in its anti-sub cap performance. So increased DPS against caps, including ones that are moving faster than before, plus tank, and damage type selection. So basically, you're saying the Phoenix has been buffed. Further, you're contradicting, as I did, the legion of posters above who whined about Archons with skirmish links.

Don't get me wrong, I think the explosion radius on torps will be extreme. However, I appreciate you confirming that the ship has been buffed and will do fine against pretty much any cap regardless of links and Titan support.

Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix.

a piece of turd is recolored to look better... is still a piece of turd.
i think you are missing his point of his post- theres a double standards in play here.

Rather it will have unique damage application that will prove an asset to capital fleets in a number of situations and otherwise be a basic functional dread.

Everything smaller than 2000 is taking less damage than before (assuming perfect skills). Yes caps all fall over that line but it comes at the cost of no longer even touching subcaps. Unless the goal is for all dreads not to touch subcaps that's bad.

Also, seeing a triage carrier sig tank your 'buffed' weapons is rather upsetting. It also means more reloads on the reloadiest of dreads.

I once thought as you do. But yes, it's the tankiest dread by far before the change and is only getting heavier.

They had to make freaking towers bigger for this change if you hadn't noticed.

Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix. The other thing that you are saying is that the Phoenix was crap against sub caps before, and it's crap against sub caps now, so there's really no change in its anti-sub cap performance. So increased DPS against caps, including ones that are moving faster than before, plus tank, and damage type selection. So basically, you're saying the Phoenix has been buffed. Further, you're contradicting, as I did, the legion of posters above who whined about Archons with skirmish links.

Don't get me wrong, I think the explosion radius on torps will be extreme. However, I appreciate you confirming that the ship has been buffed and will do fine against pretty much any cap regardless of links and Titan support.