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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Suspicious Tubesteak
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:37:04 -
[841] - Quote
Querns wrote:Naglerr wrote:Querns wrote:Naglerr wrote: By constructing our fleet in a particular way and actively swapping fleet leadership roles when needed we can manage to achieve warpins on nearly all targets we want to engage. We heavily make use of fleet warps to bookmarks and probe returns as a method of pvp engagement generation. With the proposed changes our method of combat becomes completely not possible. Yes it is true that we can warp the scout on grid with the target, but that only doubles the time required to perform the same action that was previously possible with a reasonable level of efficiency and at greatly increased risk to our scanners. This will result in missed opportunities on targets for no observable gain in mechanics.
Adapt. Kills are not a commodity that you are owed -- they are a reward. If they become more difficult to acquire, the reward should be sweeter. I would be perfectly happy to adapt to a mechanic that has at least some positive impact. This change is one that simply makes more burdensome the same tasks I've previously had to complete in order to earn kills. I guess I'm just not understanding how literally removing functionality from a product is supposed to make it more appealing to the customers of said product. Can you explain that one to me Querns? This change has plenty of positive impact -- it severely diminishes the efficacy of bombers, whose omnipresence choked off available fleet comps to those that could either not be caught, or had small enough signature radii to shrug off bombing runs. Assuming workarounds are not found, we could see the resurgence of shield doctrines for subcaps. This returns a whole host of ships to combat effectiveness, which, to me, is a win.
So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then? |
Hendrink Collie
Steel Fleet Gentlemen's.Club
30
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:42:53 -
[842] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:Hendrink Collie wrote:Generally I am for these changes. I think it will add some interesting dynamics and will open up doctrine choices that were over-shadowed with the current META of overpowered probing/fleet warp mechanics. There is one thing I'd like to change though:
Only in wormhole space, allow for fleet warps to cosmic signatures. Currently these changes disproportional affect wormholers, and I believe the proposed changes wouldn't benefit overall tactics in wormhole space compared to everywhere else.
If you have to compromise the implementation, then the solution you have chosen to implement is flawed and not actually fit for purpose. This is the classic case of a solution looking for a problem.
... isn't that the whole idea of feedback, to find possible issues with the idea and to give ways to fix the issues? I know it's popular just to lay on the floor kicking and screaming, but I find it more constructive to give feedback that could help groups of people that are oppressively affected by changes. I believe what I have said is a good compromise. What say you? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:47:35 -
[843] - Quote
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote: So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?
This change goes a long way to help the situtation.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:48:23 -
[844] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:No, it won't. When you are attacking at tower in W-Space, and need to warp to bounces AS A FLEET a fast tackle interceptor won't help. When you are warping a fleet from a hostile tower or wormhole AS A FLEET to a safe/friendly tower, a fast tackle interceptor won't work. When you are running capital escalation sites in a C5 or C6 and you need to warp back to the friendly POS AS A FLEET, a fast tackle interceptor won't work. When you are fighting off of a tower with a hostile fleet and need to warp to a safe spot as A FLEET fast tackle won't work, because it could very well be dead. Fast tackle might be the answer for everything in Null Sec, but it certainly isn't in W-Space. It sounds like you need to find new tactics.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Suspicious Tubesteak
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:52:19 -
[845] - Quote
Querns wrote:Suspicious Tubesteak wrote: So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?
This change goes a long way to help the situtation.
Goes a long way to help the situation for nullsec and basically nobody else.
I meant more along the lines of why not just fix the ships and / or bombs directly? |
HTC NecoSino
No Vacancies
237
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:53:51 -
[846] - Quote
Col North Chanlin wrote:Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life?
They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow. #RecallCorbexx. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16157
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:54:13 -
[847] - Quote
Leeluvv wrote:baltec1 wrote:Elana Apgar wrote:Dear CCP Larkin and CCP Fozzie,
This is game breaking for W-Space.
And here are the two main reasons:
The main game breaking reason is:
When travelling in W-Space AS A FLEET you almost always have to Fleet Warp from a bookmark to travel from Wormhole to Wormhole until you get to your destination Wormhole. Sometimes you engage hostiles on a wormhole, other times you Fleet Warp to a specific location, whether it be a safe, bounce off of a tower, a tractor unit/wreck, or even a friendly tower.
If we cannot move as a fleet, this will absolutely break Fleet engagements in W-Space. Just like in Null-Sec it is important to move as a fleet, but unlike Null Sec we do not have Gates on our overview or Stations on our overview. We use bookmarks for safes, wormholes, and POS'.
How can you seriously expect us to do anything in a coordinated manner if we cannot warp as a group? Have you even been involved in wormhole fleet fights to see how it all works? If you'd like specific examples of how various wormhole engagements would be impossible, I'd be more then happy to supply them.
The second reason:
When in wormhole space, you sometimes have to combat scan a small ship to kill him. And often times you need to "throw" a tackle ship at that ship you are combat scanning. With these changes it will be near impossible to catch a small ship because by the time your combat scan ship lands the target will quite possibly be gone, or if you tackle in the scan ship, it might not survive until help arrives.
I am strongly URGING you to reconsider how this change will IRREPARABLY DAMAGE W-Space before implementing this. W-Space in many ways is struggling, and this could very well destroy it. I really don't understand why CCP feels the need to have all changes in the game revolve around Null Sec.
Thank you for your time.
one pilot in a fast interceptor fixes your problem. As has already been mentioned, an interceptor with no probing bonus is your probing ship now or do I need 3 people to do what used to be done by 1? Bye, bye small gang PvP in WHs.
FC ships have probes fitted already. I dont see where the issue is, if you want the bonus then just use a fast cov-ops.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:55:12 -
[848] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:Leeluvv wrote:Hendrink Collie wrote:Generally I am for these changes. I think it will add some interesting dynamics and will open up doctrine choices that were over-shadowed with the current META of overpowered probing/fleet warp mechanics. There is one thing I'd like to change though:
Only in wormhole space, allow for fleet warps to cosmic signatures. Currently these changes disproportional affect wormholers, and I believe the proposed changes wouldn't benefit overall tactics in wormhole space compared to everywhere else.
If you have to compromise the implementation, then the solution you have chosen to implement is flawed and not actually fit for purpose. This is the classic case of a solution looking for a problem. ... isn't that the whole idea of feedback, to find possible issues with the idea and to give ways to fix the issues? I know it's popular just to lay on the floor kicking and screaming, but I find it more constructive to give feedback that could help groups of people that are oppressively affected by changes. I believe what I have said is a good compromise. What say you?
Not necessarily. If someone was going to fix my flat tyre by painting the car blue to hide the flat, you tell them that painting is the wrong solution, you don't suggest red would hide it better. |
Ele Rebellion
Dead Star Syndicate
42
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:56:50 -
[849] - Quote
CCP can we expect that the concern about OGBs and WH bookmarks will be addressed before this is implemented?
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
87
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:56:52 -
[850] - Quote
Col North Chanlin wrote:Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life?
Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return. |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:57:01 -
[851] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:Col North Chanlin wrote:Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow. #RecallCorbexx. This shit right here is why I keep coming back to eveo.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:58:11 -
[852] - Quote
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:Querns wrote:Suspicious Tubesteak wrote: So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?
This change goes a long way to help the situtation. Goes a long way to help the situation for nullsec and basically nobody else. I meant more along the lines of why not just fix the ships and / or bombs directly? Who said the change was specifically to nerf bombers? The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1671
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Posted - 2015.06.12 16:58:42 -
[853] - Quote
I thought Fozzie SOV would need a cruisers with cloaks and some scouts to keep griefing defenders. Now they won't be able to probe tackle anyone so they don't even need cloaks.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Suspicious Tubesteak
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:00:16 -
[854] - Quote
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:Querns wrote:Suspicious Tubesteak wrote: So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?
This change goes a long way to help the situtation. Goes a long way to help the situation for nullsec and basically nobody else. I meant more along the lines of why not just fix the ships and / or bombs directly?
Disregard, I just answered my own question. Because bombers ARE stupidly OP in certain situations, and nobody wants to give that up by nerfing them.
So the "have your cake and eat it as well" solution is to nerf fleet warping, which initially sounds somewhat OK - until you think about all the mundane uses for fleet warp as a general QOL function, used by many people in all classes of space. |
SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
293
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:00:27 -
[855] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Col North Chanlin wrote:Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return. the same rhetoric was vomited when Phoebe was announced. The game is better and people didn't run out and buy more accounts.
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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Jeff Kione
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
13
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:01:09 -
[856] - Quote
Querns wrote:The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional!
Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense. |
Ele Rebellion
Dead Star Syndicate
42
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:03:18 -
[857] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote: They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow. #RecallCorbexx.
Funny how CCP Larrikin mentioned Corbexx by name in post #104 as if he's defending him. (maybe CCP Larrikin is actually GSF Larrikin)
CCP Larrikin wrote: Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
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Budrick3
POS Party Low-Class
108
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:06:01 -
[858] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Tara Read wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:I am a FC I feel no extra weight from this change and if I did. I get volunteers from fleet to help me. That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account. I rest my case. Teamwork its a alien concept I guess hey?
Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position. |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
87
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:07:23 -
[859] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:Col North Chanlin wrote:Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return. the same rhetoric was vomited when Phoebe was announced. The game is better and people didn't run out and buy more accounts.
You're right, but hundreds of accounts were unsubbed. I'd like to direct your attention to eveoffline.... Ya. You need to go do some research for what little CCP makes available to us. I know I unsubbed 3 cyno accounts, which also happen to have a few combat pilots attached. I was not nearly alone as I have friends within my own alliance that have gone from 6+ accounts to around 3.
While the players may not be leaving, the accounts are which in the eyes of CCP's wallet is one and the same.
EDIT: While I cannot deny the changes have had some positive effects. I can firmly say that better changes could have been made to reduce the collateral damage. Much like this suggested change and it's effect on relatively innocent WH dwellers. Also crippling the ability for small and large gangs alike to catch others hiding in safes without giving a further advantage to the one doing the running/hiding.
PS- Have fun catching that super safe logging in under 30 seconds when you have to probe the ship, then warp your probe ship in, then the dictor/hic. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
233
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:12:03 -
[860] - Quote
Ele Rebellion wrote:HTC NecoSino wrote: They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow. #RecallCorbexx. Funny how CCP Larrikin mentioned Corbexx by name in post #104 as if he's defending him. (maybe CCP Larrikin is actually GSF Larrikin) CCP Larrikin wrote: Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
Larrikin came to CCP via PL and NCdot, not GSF |
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
233
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:12:55 -
[861] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:Col North Chanlin wrote:Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return. the same rhetoric was vomited when Phoebe was announced. The game is better and people didn't run out and buy more accounts.
I unsubbed 18 accounts, but i still play on plenty of accounts, but overall -18 after phoebe |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1714
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:15:54 -
[862] - Quote
Jeff Kione wrote:Querns wrote:The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional! Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense. That's just, like, your opinion, man.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1716
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:16:45 -
[863] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:Tara Read wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:I am a FC I feel no extra weight from this change and if I did. I get volunteers from fleet to help me. That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account. I rest my case. Teamwork its a alien concept I guess hey? Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position. Scouting is valuable to gangs of all sizes. Hell, I use scouts when in a gang consisting of solely my own accounts.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16157
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:17:34 -
[864] - Quote
Jeff Kione wrote:Querns wrote:The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional! Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense.
The problem is with fleets everywhere.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16157
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:21:32 -
[865] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:
Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position.
People like you are the reason why titans get caught traveling solo.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Valterra Craven
578
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:23:27 -
[866] - Quote
Querns wrote: I daresay their opinion is that combat probing allows fleets to engage too quickly.
Then why not adjust combat probing, or how quickly fleets warp instead of changing something unrelated that has effects beyond the stated goal?
Querns wrote: You're falling into the trap of commoditizing Eve gameplay under the monkey filth that is the contemporary use of the word "content."
Normally, I respect your opinion, but this just makes no sense. What are you even talking about?
Querns wrote: Also, reducing the power of bombers almost certainly will allow the fleet meta to shift, as fleet meta is currently dominated by ships whose vulnerability to bombs is at a minimum.
But this doesn't actually reduce the power of bombers. Cuse ya know they are still just as powerful as before. Bombs aren't affected by this change and neither are bombers capabilities. You can still fleet warp to a cloaky on grid and bombers can still do the same amount of damage as before. This change just makes no sense.
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Leoric Firesword
Rolling Static Gone Critical
133
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:26:13 -
[867] - Quote
Sparrow Creature wrote:this change will kill wormhole just saying..
not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.
you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :) |
Telizane
Ospray Corp Unreachable
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:29:22 -
[868] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.
- Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.
Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad. You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts. Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them. You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates. I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise). Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level. Try that first. See how it actually works.
+1 |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
664
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:31:50 -
[869] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I thought Fozzie SOV would need a cruisers with cloaks and some scouts to keep griefing defenders. Now they won't be able to probe tackle anyone so they don't even need cloaks. You don't need skills to probe down an MWDing cruiser ... just fit a T3D for probing, speed and tackle and the cruiser is toast. The problem comes with the near unprobable OGB and cruising fleets, where you either need a perfect prober or more than one tackler.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1069
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Posted - 2015.06.12 17:35:03 -
[870] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:
Go watch the Eve is real trailer again and ask yourself where the hero interceptors are these days?
In my fleets? Along with their brothers and sisters the hero interdictors...
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
So, why do I continue to provide feedback on these forums?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5813975#post5813975
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