Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Whats with all the people ignoring those saying that its the plate thats the problem, not the drone bay.

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Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Whats with all the people ignoring those saying that its the plate thats the problem, not the drone bay.

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Originally by: j0sephine

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Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:20:29

"Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results (..)"

Dunno what gank moa really be, to be honest... you can mount 4x 250mm rails on her with 4 damage mods, but that leaves launcher slots empty (not enough grid left) ... with all tech.2 gear she'd do ~196 raw dps then. If you drop a damage mod for RCU to install the launchers, the overall DoT might go up to ~210 dps... but that'll leave you with some 40 grid even with maxed out skills, to use for all the lows (didn't check the cpu, might get tight too)

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Originally by: j0sephine

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Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:20:29

"Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results (..)"

Dunno what gank moa really be, to be honest... you can mount 4x 250mm rails on her with 4 damage mods, but that leaves launcher slots empty (not enough grid left) ... with all tech.2 gear she'd do ~196 raw dps then. If you drop a damage mod for RCU to install the launchers, the overall DoT might go up to ~210 dps... but that'll leave you with some 40 grid even with maxed out skills, to use for all the lows (didn't check the cpu, might get tight too)

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Originally by: j0sephine

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Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08

"Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots."

Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off.

Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o

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• All cruisers and most hacs will lose ability to go for HP tank (I assume large shield ext are nerfed witht the plates). Which will practicaly cut the number of setups in half


• All cruisers wont fit frig guns, because they have unused grid and low HP, so they will always fit med guns. What we know about med guns? That they are not good. They can't hit small targets, they have very limited range for close combat and at long range bs totaly owns in a gunfight. Yet med guns take so much grid that if you go with them cruiser has nothing left to play with


• Cruisers wont be able to take hits, because cruiser active tanking sucks. So the only cruiser setup will be gank.


• Cruiser which is fitted with med guns, has no tanking worth very little. Frig size will orbit and laugh, if ceptor engages it will blow up such cruiser before taking any damage if any, because you can dive under med guns tracking way before it locks you. And remember that med guns have 10 times less tracking. 10 times.


• BS will be able to take out low HP cruiser in a volley at ranges beyond med guns, at close ranges it will take only 1 web to hit the cruiser with large guns. And in a world of fast lock bs like we have now cruisers will suck vs bs.

• All cruisers and most hacs will lose ability to go for HP tank (I assume large shield ext are nerfed witht the plates). Which will practicaly cut the number of setups in half


• All cruisers wont fit frig guns, because they have unused grid and low HP, so they will always fit med guns. What we know about med guns? That they are not good. They can't hit small targets, they have very limited range for close combat and at long range bs totaly owns in a gunfight. Yet med guns take so much grid that if you go with them cruiser has nothing left to play with


• Cruisers wont be able to take hits, because cruiser active tanking sucks. So the only cruiser setup will be gank.


• Cruiser which is fitted with med guns, has no tanking worth very little. Frig size will orbit and laugh, if ceptor engages it will blow up such cruiser before taking any damage if any, because you can dive under med guns tracking way before it locks you. And remember that med guns have 10 times less tracking. 10 times.


• BS will be able to take out low HP cruiser in a volley at ranges beyond med guns, at close ranges it will take only 1 web to hit the cruiser with large guns. And in a world of fast lock bs like we have now cruisers will suck vs bs.

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The comparison above is 4 720mm t2 VS 5 200mm t2 at 15000-17000m, 4 damage mod t2 each.

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Quote:

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The comparison above is 4 720mm t2 VS 5 200mm t2 at 15000-17000m, 4 damage mod t2 each.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:35:41
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:31:43

Originally by: j0sephine

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Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08

"Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots."

Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off.

Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o

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And that is exactly why there is not hope whatsoever to defeat a tanked thorax in any close range cruiser in a world without plates. The close range thorax will die to any long range gank fitting, and kill other close range cruisers. Hence, nobody will ever fit a cruiser for close range except to fight other classes. Most cruiser cannot catch frigs, and cannot be a threat to BS without a plate, hence cruisers are ruled out of the game. Then we go play WOW and ask Blizzard for bigger helmets.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:35:41
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 14:31:43

Originally by: j0sephine

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Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08

"Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots."

Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off.

Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o

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And that is exactly why there is not hope whatsoever to defeat a tanked thorax in any close range cruiser in a world without plates. The close range thorax will die to any long range gank fitting, and kill other close range cruisers. Hence, nobody will ever fit a cruiser for close range except to fight other classes. Most cruiser cannot catch frigs, and cannot be a threat to BS without a plate, hence cruisers are ruled out of the game. Then we go play WOW and ask Blizzard for bigger helmets.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

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Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Whats with all the people ignoring those saying that its the plate thats the problem, not the drone bay.

Even the rax pilot from that vid, says that its the plate that overpowers the rax. Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots.

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Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Whats with all the people ignoring those saying that its the plate thats the problem, not the drone bay.

Even the rax pilot from that vid, says that its the plate that overpowers the rax. Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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I thought the rupture had six high slots? If 4 720s/heavys arent able to be fit, bring it down to 650s.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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It sounds much like many folks here will veto *any* drone bay at 200 on a cruiser. I think you could remove 3 highslots on the thorax, or move the space to the vexor and you'd still have this from some. Suggest you get some compromise sorta mindset, or these threads will continue for eons.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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As that video showed us - a big part of the issue comes from not shooting the drones. That doesn't get factored into the equations.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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The issue to me is that the thorax has the *ability* to gank with med guns along with the drones - though with plates in vogue people aren't gonna do that very often. I've come around to the idea of swapping drone bays on the vexor and thorax...but leaving the eve universe devoid of a cruiser with 200?

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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I thought the rupture had six high slots? If 4 720s/heavys arent able to be fit, bring it down to 650s.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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It sounds much like many folks here will veto *any* drone bay at 200 on a cruiser. I think you could remove 3 highslots on the thorax, or move the space to the vexor and you'd still have this from some. Suggest you get some compromise sorta mindset, or these threads will continue for eons.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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As that video showed us - a big part of the issue comes from not shooting the drones. That doesn't get factored into the equations.

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Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

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The issue to me is that the thorax has the *ability* to gank with med guns along with the drones - though with plates in vogue people aren't gonna do that very often. I've come around to the idea of swapping drone bays on the vexor and thorax...but leaving the eve universe devoid of a cruiser with 200?

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Noone here is saying Plates Aren't A Problem they just aren't THIS problem. We need to bring the Thorax out of HAC land damage wise before we cascade a change to ALL cruisers that will still leave the PROBLEM this whole thread has proven time and time again. Nerfing Plates without boosting cruisers is going to break something you DO NOT WANT broken at this point in time... close range cruiser battles across the board. Its just you know... some other pilots besides Rax Pilots would like to get into all the fun... because they watch on the side line while Thorax pget into the fun without their counterpart pwning them right and left unjustly.

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Noone here is saying Plates Aren't A Problem they just aren't THIS problem. We need to bring the Thorax out of HAC land damage wise before we cascade a change to ALL cruisers that will still leave the PROBLEM this whole thread has proven time and time again. Nerfing Plates without boosting cruisers is going to break something you DO NOT WANT broken at this point in time... close range cruiser battles across the board. Its just you know... some other pilots besides Rax Pilots would like to get into all the fun... because they watch on the side line while Thorax pget into the fun without their counterpart pwning them right and left unjustly.

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Originally by: Tennotsukai

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So, the problem is in fact the plate and not the drone bay of the rax?
But because people don't want to lose their extra 3k of armour, they instead want to nerf the rax.
Sorry, but those who are saying that the drone bay isn't the problem, its the plate are looking to be right. The whole argument shouldn't be about the rax being uber because of its drones.. its in fact the rax is uber because of the 1600mm plate.

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Originally by: Tennotsukai

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So, the problem is in fact the plate and not the drone bay of the rax?
But because people don't want to lose their extra 3k of armour, they instead want to nerf the rax.
Sorry, but those who are saying that the drone bay isn't the problem, its the plate are looking to be right. The whole argument shouldn't be about the rax being uber because of its drones.. its in fact the rax is uber because of the 1600mm plate.

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Originally by: Naughty Boy

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* keep the plates, remove the drone bay:
The blaster-thorax becomes viable and desirableagain as it has to fit blasters to be a close range boat (needing damage and not able to rely only on the drone bay). Plate setup still beat gank setup, which mean longer and more enjoyable fight. Thorax can still heavily outdamage any cruiser at close range and even break a dual rep apoc tank alone.

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