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| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 38 :: one page | |
| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 Will Basthard Todmacher    |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:10:00 -
[751]
I been following this thread for days. What most don't realize is that we all want the thorax to stay the same but realize that in doing so they would need massively boost all cruisers. This is a fat chance in hell to come to pass. Thus, Thorax needs the quick fix. Everyone will have to adapt to the new thorax. Its been far too long for this ship to be untouched from the bat of tomB. I say good riddance to 200m3 and hello to my collection of Caldari cruisers sitting in storage for the day I can actually have a change in hades to beat 'Rax pilot mono y mono. My skills don't suck but when you take even a blackbird vs a Thorax the day usually ends up w. 8 heavies giving you a short trip to a pod. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:11:00 -
[752] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 21:16:18
A mindblowingly convincing argument that the thorax should be nerfed. Because it's been discussed and defended for 15 pages. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:11:00 -
[753] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 21:16:18
A mindblowingly convincing argument that the thorax should be nerfed. Because it's been discussed and defended for 15 pages. |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:12:00 -
[754]That still doesn't tell me why my stabber has only 2 scouts drones. But i guess that i'll get that when i get more sleep. Long day today... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
 Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:12:00 -
[755]That still doesn't tell me why my stabber has only 2 scouts drones. But i guess that i'll get that when i get more sleep. Long day today... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:18:00 -
[756]
Well if you are comparing a droneless thorax to a rupture....as I said before, arty takes no cap. Fit two small reppers rather than a couple of damage mods and you obviously can outcap the rax. Granted, the rupture would be hard pressed to solidify the kill - but that would work both ways and is always the case with long range salvos. Better to argue the issue on what is most commonly used on the 'rax, today - with plates in the game as thats what we have to deal with. That means small guns, blasters most likely. A 1600 plate, three hardners, a repper, web, scram, and an MWD. I'm sure there are a couple rax pilots fitting medium rails out there, but really now - have you ever been nailed by such a setup in a rupture? I'd be all for taking that 100m3 of dronespace and shifting it to the vexor though. 250m3 on that ship would bring it into play as much as the stabber. Haha, theres the thread. Nerf the stabber! |
 Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:18:00 -
[757]
Well if you are comparing a droneless thorax to a rupture....as I said before, arty takes no cap. Fit two small reppers rather than a couple of damage mods and you obviously can outcap the rax. Granted, the rupture would be hard pressed to solidify the kill - but that would work both ways and is always the case with long range salvos. Better to argue the issue on what is most commonly used on the 'rax, today - with plates in the game as thats what we have to deal with. That means small guns, blasters most likely. A 1600 plate, three hardners, a repper, web, scram, and an MWD. I'm sure there are a couple rax pilots fitting medium rails out there, but really now - have you ever been nailed by such a setup in a rupture? I'd be all for taking that 100m3 of dronespace and shifting it to the vexor though. 250m3 on that ship would bring it into play as much as the stabber. Haha, theres the thread. Nerf the stabber! --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:26:00 -
[758]
Erm, no. I didn't change logic at all. I am trying to prove that it is better for a thorax to keep the plate and lose half the drones than the other way around. I believe i did it. As for you being succesful with your non plate thorax, i'd say go face some gank rupture without your plate and die... wait. No. People do not fit gank rupture because AC + plates makes it better overall, currently. Lose the plate on anything, you'll face the kind of rupture that does 200+ dps and you will not like it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:26:00 -
[759]
Erm, no. I didn't change logic at all. I am trying to prove that it is better for a thorax to keep the plate and lose half the drones than the other way around. I believe i did it. As for you being succesful with your non plate thorax, i'd say go face some gank rupture without your plate and die... wait. No. People do not fit gank rupture because AC + plates makes it better overall, currently. Lose the plate on anything, you'll face the kind of rupture that does 200+ dps and you will not like it. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:29:00 -
[760]A blaster thorax without plate is vulnerable... to "gank setups", even to a gank-thorax with 200mm railguns. No point made about the drone bay here, it's a totally different rule of the game that you point out. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:29:00 -
[761]A blaster thorax without plate is vulnerable... to "gank setups", even to a gank-thorax with 200mm railguns. No point made about the drone bay here, it's a totally different rule of the game that you point out. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:32:00 -
[762]
How so ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:32:00 -
[763]
How so ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:35:00 -
[764]
Congratulation, you find a specific theoretical setup (that isn't viable either) that would beat a thorax in a 1 vs 1. Now, nobody said that the thorax was overpowered by such a margin that you couldn't find a specific to kill it. Kinda ruins that to be honest, nobody fit 4 * 720 or even 4 * 650 artillery and a mwd, that things doesn't hold a fight against anything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:35:00 -
[765]
Congratulation, you find a specific theoretical setup (that isn't viable either) that would beat a thorax in a 1 vs 1. Now, nobody said that the thorax was overpowered by such a margin that you couldn't find a specific to kill it. Kinda ruins that to be honest, nobody fit 4 * 720 or even 4 * 650 artillery and a mwd, that things doesn't hold a fight against anything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
 Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[766]
Sorta like talkin about a present day thorax pilot loading a full rack of med rails, or anyone with a pulse shooting at the thorax with 720s instead of the drones, or fighting a thorax at close range with 720s to begin with, or any of the other nifty stuff in this thread  |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[767] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 21:57:47 I'll actually do the setups for you: Thorax: 5 * 200mm t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not all of the 375 cpu is used (weapon upgrades 5 required on top of electronic 5) Not all of the 1006.2 pg used (engineering 5 needed, no adv. weap. upgrades needed) Rupture: (650mm fit) 4 * 650 t2 & 2 heavy t2 1 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster & 1 empty slot 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not enough cpu to fit the last mid slot, not enough pg with engineering 5 to fit everything but it'll do with advanced weapon upgrade trained a few levels Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 - 40 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Rupture: (720mm fit) 4 * 720mm t2 & 2 rocket launcher t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Enough cpu, but require advanced weapon upgrade trained a lot (71 pg lacking without the skill, 1042 pg with the rcu2 and it need 1113 to fit) Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Ok, i did my best to come with comparable setups. I hope that i did that right, as i said i'll have to check it tomorrow. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[768]
Sorta like talkin about a present day thorax pilot loading a full rack of med rails, or anyone with a pulse shooting at the thorax with 720s instead of the drones, or fighting a thorax at close range with 720s to begin with, or any of the other nifty stuff in this thread --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:49:00 -
[769] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 21:57:47 I'll actually do the setups for you: Thorax: 5 * 200mm t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not all of the 375 cpu is used (weapon upgrades 5 required on top of electronic 5) Not all of the 1006.2 pg used (engineering 5 needed, no adv. weap. upgrades needed) Rupture: (650mm fit) 4 * 650 t2 & 2 heavy t2 1 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster & 1 empty slot 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Not enough cpu to fit the last mid slot, not enough pg with engineering 5 to fit everything but it'll do with advanced weapon upgrade trained a few levels Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 - 40 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Rupture: (720mm fit) 4 * 720mm t2 & 2 rocket launcher t2 2 tracking comp t2 & 1 sensor booster 4 damage mod t2 & 1 rcu t2 Enough cpu, but require advanced weapon upgrade trained a lot (71 pg lacking without the skill, 1042 pg with the rcu2 and it need 1113 to fit) Outdamaged by the thorax inside 30 km, i'll do the precise math tomorrow. Ok, i did my best to come with comparable setups. I hope that i did that right, as i said i'll have to check it tomorrow. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:50:00 -
[770]
I know, i find all this quite annoying to be honest. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:50:00 -
[771]
I know, i find all this quite annoying to be honest. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Caeden Nicomachean |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:56:00 -
[772]
Better than arguing about politics  |
Caeden Nicomachean The Older Gamers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:56:00 -
[773]
Better than arguing about politics --- 25 or over? Join www.theoldergamers.com |
 Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:07:00 -
[774]
You accept ship flight time/drone flight time as a reduction of damage accross the fight, but forget about the tracking problems of long range guns at close range as a reduction of damage over time. Why is that ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:07:00 -
[775]
You accept ship flight time/drone flight time as a reduction of damage accross the fight, but forget about the tracking problems of long range guns at close range as a reduction of damage over time. Why is that ? Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:19:00 -
[776] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 22:20:18
A fair question. To answer the question, I'll have to ask you to try shooting at a thorax with its mwd running. I'll be honest: I've never done it in a rupture. But I have done it with 425mm railguns. I can hit an mwd-ing cruiser up to just inside 10km. Now, that's with large turrets that track slowly. With medium turrets that track slowly I'm sure you'll be able to get solid hits right up to the point where the thorax turns off its mwd at very close range. Obviously at that point if you haven't destroyed it, you've probably lost unless your launchers can somehow save you. But that's a point of combat experience. Much like I had to learn when a target was close enough for me to engage without dying before reaching the target, non-thorax users need to learn when a thorax starts too close for them to try destroying it. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:19:00 -
[777] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 22:20:18
A fair question. To answer the question, I'll have to ask you to try shooting at a thorax with its mwd running. I'll be honest: I've never done it in a rupture. But I have done it with 425mm railguns. I can hit an mwd-ing cruiser up to just inside 10km. Now, that's with large turrets that track slowly. With medium turrets that track slowly I'm sure you'll be able to get solid hits right up to the point where the thorax turns off its mwd at very close range. Obviously at that point if you haven't destroyed it, you've probably lost unless your launchers can somehow save you. But that's a point of combat experience. Much like I had to learn when a target was close enough for me to engage without dying before reaching the target, non-thorax users need to learn when a thorax starts too close for them to try destroying it. |
Naughty Boy |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:30:00 -
[778] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 22:36:20
So why exactly does it needs so much damage at that point ? That's the thing that is puzzling me really, if you get inside the long range guns, 3, 8 or 28 drones won't make a difference except how fast the other ship (the other cruiser, say) is going to die. But it will make a difference in you meet another close range ship, say my poor stabber, because it need as much damage up close as you do. For me, the issue about balance is more related to close range ship that long range ship, hence why i don't get this stuffs about 720mm artillery rupture and 200mm railgun thorax. I just did the math "if it helps" but can't see futher than that. Now, that's for inter-class combat. How about, say, assault ship (frigates) or even battleship ? Isn't the "much needed firepower" you speak off a bit to much ? That why i rest my case, about an inbalance "inside the class" and "outside a class". I would still love the thorax with 10 mediums, but that would give me a reason to use my stabber sometimes  Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Oh, yeah, i'll just add that. I'm not randomly getting from a "nerf the thorax drones bay" to a "give me more drone bay on my stabber". That example was to try to get a point more clear, i already said why i don't think that "boost *damage* of every cruiser will be better than nerf the rax" is going to be an improvement. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:30:00 -
[779] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 26/08/2005 22:42:20
So why exactly does it needs so much damage at that point ? That's the thing that is puzzling me really, if you get inside the long range guns, 3, 8 or 28 drones won't make a difference except how fast the other ship (the other cruiser, say) is going to die. But it will make a difference if you meet another close range ship, say my poor stabber, because it need as much damage up close as you do. For me, the issue about balance is more related to close range ship that long range ship, hence why i don't get this stuffs about 720mm artillery rupture and 200mm railgun thorax. I just did the math "if it helps" but can't see futher than that. Now, that's for inter-class combat. How about, say, assault ship (frigates) or even battleship ? Isn't the "much needed firepower" you speak of a bit too much ? That's why i rest my case, about an inbalance "inside the class" and "outside a class". I would still love the thorax with 10 mediums, but that would give me a reason to use my stabber sometimes as it would no shamefully die to another close range cruiser, for the sake of the argument you bring about the "much needed damage". Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Edit: Oh, yeah, i'll just add that. I'm not randomly getting from a "nerf the thorax drones bay" to a "give me more drone bay on my stabber". That example was to try to get a point more clear, i already said why i don't think that "boost *damage* of every cruiser will be better than nerf the rax" is going to be an improvement. Edit2,3,4: spelling errors 4tw.  In Rust We Trust |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:41:00 -
[780]
The stabber can kite like a son-of-a-gun. Against a thorax it'll want an mwd because the thorax will be using one. Against other ships, it doesn't even need that. I'm not an expert on minnie ships, but I surely fly against 'em a lot. 2 Assault frigates can make real quick work of a non-plated thorax. Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates. An assault frig can easily have 1k armor, great resists, solid damage, and move at over 500m/s. And the 'rax's blasters? Well, unless the frigates are orbiting at 2km... Battleships can fry a non-plate thorax outside 20km real quick, and 6 heavy drones will do a non-plate thorax well before that thorax can do a battleship. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
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