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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
 Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi    |
Posted - 2005.11.28 04:23:00 -
[2821] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/11/2005 04:35:06 No worries Dark PIne. Leneerra, the whole point of these changes is to rebalance the game on a large scale. I see nothing wrong with this and have heard no serious evidence from the test server that there are severe problems that cannot be tweaked into shape. Although in a thread this large it is possible that I missed posts that point this out. I do think that you are off the mark with your comments about being able to swap one type of damage dealer for another. Many ships can do this already in the form of slots that can be used for either missiles or for turrets. It has caused no issues other than to add variety to the game. Do I want a turret that delievers instant damage but is restricted in damage type, or go with missiles that can deliver any damage type but with delayed effect. I personally do not find a problem with the concept, providing the modules are balanced properly for use. I suppose if balance were to become a problem that slots could be allocated as being "drone module" capable in addition to being turret or missile bay capable. This would negate the need to put an arbitrary limit of 5 per ship. An example might be the Arbitrator, which has 4 high slots which would be listed as "4 hi slots, 2 turret/1 missile/3 drone"... allowing its normal (2 lasers, 1 hvy missile, 1 NOS), or (3 xtra drones, 1 NOS), or (2 turrets, 2 drones), or anything in between. Edit: Forgot this last bit. Matari ships have always been very skill intensive, however the situation is no worse now than before in that regard. They will be able to fly their ships with the skills they currently have with no serious issues... however, if they chose to they can alter their future skill training to add a great deal more diversity to their setups. This is not a bad thing. Typhoon pilots in particular will have some interesting options, which they desperately need. |
 Denga Vulture |
Posted - 2005.11.28 09:12:00 -
[2822]
These Drone modules are really great. Finally Drone Ships become Drone only ships ! For Drone lovers its a very nice thought to remove offence power to boost the drones !! Great   |
 Denga Vulture The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn |
Posted - 2005.11.28 09:12:00 -
[2823]
These Drone modules are really great. Finally Drone Ships become Drone only ships ! For Drone lovers its a very nice thought to remove offence power to boost the drones !! Great - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Dominix please |
 Rex Martell |
Posted - 2005.11.28 10:24:00 -
[2824] Edited by: Rex Martell on 28/11/2005 10:24:31
Any BattleShip which can deploy 5 Drones can put out 312.5 damage (approx) with maxed skills and no mods. Five +1 drone moduals on the dominix put it an equal footing with the other battles ships. (on the grounds of damage output). If limited to trying to make up that damage gap with what turrets it can mount with its sparse Power Grid, then a imbalance would exist. Probably the most balanced solution is to scrap the +1 drone modual and give the Dominix a hefty powergrid boost. spelling edit "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
 Rex Martell Caldari |
Posted - 2005.11.28 10:24:00 -
[2825] Edited by: Rex Martell on 28/11/2005 10:24:31
Any BattleShip which can deploy 5 Drones can put out 312.5 damage (approx) with maxed skills and no mods. Five +1 drone moduals on the dominix put it an equal footing with the other battles ships. (on the grounds of damage output). If limited to trying to make up that damage gap with what turrets it can mount with its sparse Power Grid, then a imbalance would exist. Probably the most balanced solution is to scrap the +1 drone modual and give the Dominix a hefty powergrid boost. spelling edit "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
 Maya Rkell |
Posted - 2005.11.28 21:52:00 -
[2826] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 28/11/2005 21:51:59
Exactly. And balance was exactly what the proposals achieved. (ignoring EW drones). Then they threw in a module whoch will be badly overpowered on certain ships and useless on others to placate the whiners. That is NOT a good basis for altering balance on, and given it will negate a good part of the attempted changes, I'd rather settle for NO change. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
 Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire |
Posted - 2005.11.28 21:52:00 -
[2827] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 28/11/2005 21:51:59
Exactly. And balance was exactly what the proposals achieved. (ignoring EW drones). Then they threw in a module whoch will be badly overpowered on certain ships and useless on others to placate the whiners. That is NOT a good basis for altering balance on, and given it will negate a good part of the attempted changes, I'd rather settle for NO change. //Maya |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.11.28 22:44:00 -
[2828] Edited by: j0sephine on 28/11/2005 22:48:23 "Any BattleShip which can deploy 5 Drones can put out 312.5 damage (approx) with maxed skills and no mods. Five +1 drone moduals on the dominix put it an equal footing with the other battles ships. (on the grounds of damage output)." Well, to be more precise. a heavy tech.2 drone with maxed out skills, no ship bonus and no drone damage mods will deal: 24 base * 1.92 (damage multiplier) * 2.0 (interfacing) * 1.25 (heavy drone skill) * 1.1 (specialization) / 2.0 (rof) ... ~63.35 raw dps the same drone on Dominix with 50% ship bonus and 'standard' setup of 3 stacked damage mods (tech.1, 15% each for 37.5% total) will deal ... ~130.7 raw dps so, this results in 10-drone Dominix setup dishing out ~1300 dps with regular tech.2 drones. If tech.2 drone damage mod is made available, the damage grows to ~152.3 dps per drone, and ~1500 dps total. how does it compare to other battleships? i'll make use of older post and add the damage of as many drones as the ship can muster x 63.35 dps calculated earlier. * Dominix, 10x drone II: 1300-1500 hp/sec * Megathron, 7x ion cannon II, 5x drone II: 1038 hp/sec * Armageddon, 7x pulse laser II, 5x drone II: 1035 hp/sec * Armageddon, 7x beam laser II, 5x drone II: 945 hp/sec * Apocalypse, 8x pulse laser II, 3x drone II: 807 hp/sec * Megathron, 7x 425mm rail II, 5x drone II: 802 hp/sec * Tempest, 6x 800mm II, 3x drone II: 764 hp/sec * Raven, 6x siege II, 3x drone II: 752 hp/sec * Apocalypse, 8x beam laser II, 3x drone II: 730 hp/sec * Raven, 6x cruise II, 3x drone II: 603 hp/sec * Tempest, 6x 1400mm II, 3x drone II: 600 hp/sec so there you have it, 10-drone Dominix can by the looks of it outdamage second-best blaster Megathron by 30-50% depending if the tech.2 drone damage modules are available. Doesn't seem to be much of "equal footing" there, in fact the Dominix appears to be considerably larger shoe... :s |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.11.28 22:44:00 -
[2829] Edited by: j0sephine on 28/11/2005 22:48:23 "Any BattleShip which can deploy 5 Drones can put out 312.5 damage (approx) with maxed skills and no mods. Five +1 drone moduals on the dominix put it an equal footing with the other battles ships. (on the grounds of damage output)." Well, to be more precise. a heavy tech.2 drone with maxed out skills, no ship bonus and no drone damage mods will deal: 24 base * 1.92 (damage multiplier) * 2.0 (interfacing) * 1.25 (heavy drone skill) * 1.1 (specialization) / 2.0 (rof) ... ~63.35 raw dps the same drone on Dominix with 50% ship bonus and 'standard' setup of 3 stacked damage mods (tech.1, 15% each for 37.5% total) will deal ... ~130.7 raw dps so, this results in 10-drone Dominix setup dishing out ~1300 dps with regular tech.2 drones. If tech.2 drone damage mod is made available, the damage grows to ~152.3 dps per drone, and ~1500 dps total. how does it compare to other battleships? i'll make use of older post and add the damage of as many drones as the ship can muster x 63.35 dps calculated earlier. * Dominix, 10x drone II: 1300-1500 hp/sec * Megathron, 7x ion cannon II, 5x drone II: 1038 hp/sec * Armageddon, 7x pulse laser II, 5x drone II: 1035 hp/sec * Armageddon, 7x beam laser II, 5x drone II: 945 hp/sec * Apocalypse, 8x pulse laser II, 3x drone II: 807 hp/sec * Megathron, 7x 425mm rail II, 5x drone II: 802 hp/sec * Tempest, 6x 800mm II, 3x drone II: 764 hp/sec * Raven, 6x siege II, 3x drone II: 752 hp/sec * Apocalypse, 8x beam laser II, 3x drone II: 730 hp/sec * Raven, 6x cruise II, 3x drone II: 603 hp/sec * Tempest, 6x 1400mm II, 3x drone II: 600 hp/sec so there you have it, 10-drone Dominix can by the looks of it outdamage second-best blaster Megathron by 30-50% depending if the tech.2 drone damage modules are available. Doesn't seem to be much of "equal footing" there, in fact the Dominix appears to be considerably larger shoe... :s |
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol |
Posted - 2005.11.29 00:12:00 -
[2830]
That smartbomb is going to be a tight squeeze on my Raven :P --------------------------------------------- Oveur > CUZ IM EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!! |
 Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion |
Posted - 2005.11.29 00:12:00 -
[2831]
That smartbomb is going to be a tight squeeze on my Raven :P Caldari - BS idea |
Troubadour |
Posted - 2005.11.29 01:28:00 -
[2832]
No. It's a 1.5/20 chance per drone. it doesn't stack. It's a 7.5% chance five times, NOT a flat 32% chance. what they did to EW was dumb and makes no sense. nobody is going to use the EW drones if EW does not stack. |
 Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis |
Posted - 2005.11.29 01:28:00 -
[2833]
No. It's a 1.5/20 chance per drone. it doesn't stack. It's a 7.5% chance five times, NOT a flat 32% chance. what they did to EW was dumb and makes no sense. nobody is going to use the EW drones if EW does not stack. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.11.29 01:41:00 -
[2834] "No. It's a 1.5/20 chance per drone. it doesn't stack. It's a 7.5% chance five times, NOT a flat 32% chance." Actually, it is 32% chance total ^^ but it's not due to stacking, but because of how probability works: 7.5% chance to jam = 92.5% chance to fail jam chance to fail 5 times in a row: 92.5% * 92.5% * 92.5 ... = 67.6% 100% - 67.6% = ~32% chance to not fail (it's calculated bit differently if i recall, but that's the gist of it ^^; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.11.29 01:41:00 -
[2835] "No. It's a 1.5/20 chance per drone. it doesn't stack. It's a 7.5% chance five times, NOT a flat 32% chance." Actually, it is 32% chance total ^^ but it's not due to stacking, but because of how probability works: 7.5% chance to jam = 92.5% chance to fail jam chance to fail 5 times in a row: 92.5% * 92.5% * 92.5 ... = 67.6% 100% - 67.6% = ~32% chance to not fail (it's calculated bit differently if i recall, but that's the gist of it ^^; |
 Meridius |
Posted - 2005.11.29 02:12:00 -
[2836]
As a proud Amarrian whos been harassed more times then he can remember about overpowered gankgeddon 4tw, i feel deeply offended by these facts  nerf ________________________________________________________ |
 Meridius Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2005.11.29 02:12:00 -
[2837]
As a proud Amarrian whos been harassed more times then he can remember about overpowered gankgeddon 4tw, i feel deeply offended by these facts nerf - _____ |
 LOPEZ |
Posted - 2005.11.29 02:26:00 -
[2838] Have fun poping drones from drone ships it will probably take a minimum of 3 rounds on one large smart bomb :P... im not gona complain about shield tanking cuz its piontless but all i ask is that u make a item for shields that is like the energized adaptive nano... and NO its not called the invulnerability field (wich is still prety crapy compared to the armor equivalent) cuz its conciderd a hardner and it doesnt get any boost from the shield resistance conpensation skills. |
 LOPEZ Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.11.29 02:26:00 -
[2839] Have fun poping drones from drone ships it will probably take a minimum of 3 rounds on one large smart bomb :P... im not gona complain about shield tanking cuz its piontless but all i ask is that u make a item for shields that is like the energized adaptive nano... and NO its not called the invulnerability field (wich is still prety crapy compared to the armor equivalent) cuz its conciderd a hardner and it doesnt get any boost from the shield resistance conpensation skills. Revelation Eclipse |
Hllaxiu |
Posted - 2005.11.29 06:03:00 -
[2840] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 29/11/2005 06:03:20
<sarcasm> but with your newly freed low slots from 4+ damage mods being useless, you can fit an officer coproc and throw in a drone control unit in your spare highslot(s)!!!! That brings the gap down an entire 100 dps!!!! </sarcasm> (5mil isk says these things won't see the light of day on TQ) |
 Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.11.29 06:03:00 -
[2841] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 29/11/2005 06:03:20
<sarcasm> but with your newly freed low slots from 4+ damage mods being useless, you can fit an officer coproc and throw in a drone control unit in your spare highslot(s)!!!! That brings the gap down an entire 100 dps!!!! </sarcasm> (5mil isk says these things won't see the light of day on TQ) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
 Rex Martell |
Posted - 2005.11.29 08:47:00 -
[2842]
Those calculations on the Older Post do not reflect the figures being put out on Eve Geek http://www.evegeek.com/ Doing the caculations for the Mega there show things as being much closer. 4.2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.24 10.16 DM 7.8 * .9 *.75 * .66 3.9 ROF DPS 869.04 Drones 316.75 T DPS 1185 I dont think the +1 Drone Modual is over Powered, but what I think both our figures show is that it is the +15% Drone Damage mod that is causing the imbalance. All Tech II damage mods are 10% I think the Drone Damage Mod should be 10 also and let the + 1 Drone mod through. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
Rex Martell Caldari |
Posted - 2005.11.29 08:47:00 -
[2843]
Those calculations on the Older Post do not reflect the figures being put out on Eve Geek http://www.evegeek.com/ Doing the caculations for the Mega there show things as being much closer. 4.2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.24 10.16 DM 7.8 * .9 *.75 * .66 3.9 ROF DPS 869.04 Drones 316.75 T DPS 1185 I dont think the +1 Drone Modual is over Powered, but what I think both our figures show is that it is the +15% Drone Damage mod that is causing the imbalance. All Tech II damage mods are 10% I think the Drone Damage Mod should be 10 also and let the + 1 Drone mod through. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.11.29 12:40:00 -
[2844] Edited by: j0sephine on 29/11/2005 12:43:31 "Those calculations on the Older Post do not reflect the figures being put out on Eve Geek http://www.evegeek.com/ Doing the caculations for the Mega there show things as being much closer. 4.2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.24 10.16 DM" This would be due to the fact you're calculating damage for neutron blasters while i used ion blasters on Megathron due to common fitting problems, as noted in the original post ^^ (in addition it doesn't seem your numbers factor in the reload time, which skews it further) "I dont think the +1 Drone Modual is over Powered, but what I think both our figures show is that it is the +15% Drone Damage mod that is causing the imbalance. All Tech II damage mods are 10% I think the Drone Damage Mod should be 10 also and let the + 1 Drone mod through." You are forgetting the regular damage mods affect both damage and rate of fire: 1.07 / (1-0.075) = ~15.7% (tech.1 weapon mod) 1.10 / (1-0.105) = ~23.0% (tech.2 weapon mod) drone damage mods are identical to them. What causes possible imbalance is simply the ability to mount equivalent of 10 weapons with damage output exceeding that of neutron blaster... nothing else. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.11.29 12:40:00 -
[2845] Edited by: j0sephine on 29/11/2005 12:43:31 "Those calculations on the Older Post do not reflect the figures being put out on Eve Geek http://www.evegeek.com/ Doing the caculations for the Mega there show things as being much closer. 4.2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.08 * 1.24 10.16 DM" This would be due to the fact you're calculating damage for neutron blasters while i used ion blasters on Megathron due to common fitting problems, as noted in the original post ^^ (in addition it doesn't seem your numbers factor in the reload time, which skews it further) "I dont think the +1 Drone Modual is over Powered, but what I think both our figures show is that it is the +15% Drone Damage mod that is causing the imbalance. All Tech II damage mods are 10% I think the Drone Damage Mod should be 10 also and let the + 1 Drone mod through." You are forgetting the regular damage mods affect both damage and rate of fire: 1.07 / (1-0.075) = ~15.7% (tech.1 weapon mod) 1.10 / (1-0.105) = ~23.0% (tech.2 weapon mod) drone damage mods are identical to them. What causes possible imbalance is simply the ability to mount equivalent of 10 weapons with damage output exceeding that of neutron blaster... nothing else. |
Ithildin |
Posted - 2005.11.29 13:20:00 -
[2846] Edited by: Ithildin on 29/11/2005 13:20:10 drone damage mods are identical to them. What causes possible imbalance is simply the ability to mount equivalent of 10 weapons with damage output exceeding that of neutron blaster... nothing else. Though, when you think about it, the only thing that's making this unbalanced is: a) Scout Drone Operation b) Electronic Warfare Drone Operation c) Ishtar drone range bonus Verily, 20km drone range is a bit short, they don't do that kind of damage on undedicated ships, but 95km potential range on Ishtar with only skills is silly. Benefits and drawbacks: * EW can only prevent redirection of drones (+) * Drones can be killed (-) * Range is naturally far reaching (+) * Drones are rather slow, even with the new skill (-) If it wasn't for the "can be killed" part, they'd work pretty much like torps back in Castor (when, incidentally, you could target and shoot missiles with turrets if you had no targets locked), although with higher damage. So. When are these forums going live in game? |
 Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.11.29 13:20:00 -
[2847] Edited by: Ithildin on 29/11/2005 13:20:10 drone damage mods are identical to them. What causes possible imbalance is simply the ability to mount equivalent of 10 weapons with damage output exceeding that of neutron blaster... nothing else. Though, when you think about it, the only thing that's making this unbalanced is: a) Scout Drone Operation b) Electronic Warfare Drone Operation c) Ishtar drone range bonus Verily, 20km drone range is a bit short, they don't do that kind of damage on undedicated ships, but 95km potential range on Ishtar with only skills is silly. Benefits and drawbacks: * EW can only prevent redirection of drones (+) * Drones can be killed (-) * Range is naturally far reaching (+) * Drones are rather slow, even with the new skill (-) If it wasn't for the "can be killed" part, they'd work pretty much like torps back in Castor (when, incidentally, you could target and shoot missiles with turrets if you had no targets locked), although with higher damage. - EVE is sick. |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.11.29 13:27:00 -
[2848] "If it wasn't for the "can be killed" part, they'd work pretty much like torps back in Castor (when, incidentally, you could target and shoot missiles with turrets if you had no targets locked), although with higher damage." Yes, and can you imagine amount of whining that'd ensue if Raven was suddenly allowed to sport 10 launchers with these torps instead of 6..? -.o |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.11.29 13:27:00 -
[2849] "If it wasn't for the "can be killed" part, they'd work pretty much like torps back in Castor (when, incidentally, you could target and shoot missiles with turrets if you had no targets locked), although with higher damage." Yes, and can you imagine amount of whining that'd ensue if Raven was suddenly allowed to sport 10 launchers with these torps instead of 6..? -.o |
 Ithildin |
Posted - 2005.11.29 14:11:00 -
[2850]
Ok, third time's the charm (third time I rewrite this post): what do you mean? P.S. Torps should read Cruise Missiles, drones (now) are as fast as Castor Cruise Missiles. So. When are these forums going live in game? |
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