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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
 Ithildin    |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:44:00 -
[451]
Ponder this: how much damage per second does a Berserker do compared to a Ogre? The answer is: Berserker --------- = 0.8125 ..Ogre That is, the Ogre does ~25% more damage. If you turn it around the Berserker does ~19% less damage. If you opt for Berserkers you gain usability but you loose heavily on damage. Compare this with EMP ammo versus Phased Plasma (40/44=0.909), where Phased Plasma does merely 10% less damage and gains a bit of usability (range and ammo size) as well as a completely different set of damage type. Bottom line is: drones are pre-weighed as far as damage goes - you do NOT need BONUSES in order to enhance racial differences like you need in missiles where all Cruise Missiles go the same speed, fire as fast, explode as fast, and has the same explosion cloud, where all the difference is merely in damage TYPE. Teleportation device? Used to highjack other's ships? We had one. It was destroyed by friendly fire, though. |
 Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:44:00 -
[452]
Ponder this: how much damage per second does a Berserker do compared to a Ogre? The answer is: Berserker --------- = 0.8125 ..Ogre That is, the Ogre does ~25% more damage. If you turn it around the Berserker does ~19% less damage. If you opt for Berserkers you gain usability but you loose heavily on damage. Compare this with EMP ammo versus Phased Plasma (40/44=0.909), where Phased Plasma does merely 10% less damage and gains a bit of usability (range and ammo size) as well as a completely different set of damage type. Bottom line is: drones are pre-weighed as far as damage goes - you do NOT need BONUSES in order to enhance racial differences like you need in missiles where all Cruise Missiles go the same speed, fire as fast, explode as fast, and has the same explosion cloud, where all the difference is merely in damage TYPE. - EVE is sick. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:49:00 -
[453] Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:53:13 Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:52:35
Well, your new 5 drones will deal the same damage (if thermal) than your previous 15 drones, and be less vulnerable to smartbombs. And right now you can have 20 heavy drones in your bay and 15 out, which would be 5 spare (eg. only 1/3rd of what you can have out at a time). With these changes, you would have room for 10 drones (drone bay halfed), and then still have 5 spare, but that would be a complete replacement set. And your 5 drones will still do the damage of 10 current ones if not using thermal drones. So yeah, being restricted to thermal drone damage bonus sucks, as it sucks missile boats to be restricted to one type of damage missile bonus. And you can still decide to use your own medslots for EW to keep your damage drones out. As I see them, EW drones will most likely be more useful for non drone boats, as drone boats will get bonus to drone damage instead of their drone control. edit:
Their damage is weighted with their speed and HP. Having non specific damage bonus for drones but not for missiles would then require than those less damaging drones become also less fast and less resistant that those best damaging ones.
|
 Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:49:00 -
[454] Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:53:13 Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:52:35
Well, your new 5 drones will deal the same damage (if thermal) than your previous 15 drones, and be less vulnerable to smartbombs. And right now you can have 20 heavy drones in your bay and 15 out, which would be 5 spare (eg. only 1/3rd of what you can have out at a time). With these changes, you would have room for 10 drones (drone bay halfed), and then still have 5 spare, but that would be a complete replacement set. And your 5 drones will still do the damage of 10 current ones if not using thermal drones. So yeah, being restricted to thermal drone damage bonus sucks, as it sucks missile boats to be restricted to one type of damage missile bonus. And you can still decide to use your own medslots for EW to keep your damage drones out. As I see them, EW drones will most likely be more useful for non drone boats, as drone boats will get bonus to drone damage instead of their drone control. edit:
Their damage is weighted with their speed and HP. Having non specific damage bonus for drones but not for missiles would then require than those less damaging drones become also less fast and less resistant that those best damaging ones. |
 Spuki |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:58:00 -
[455]
You got a raven on your scanner that is hunting guristas -> you load em You got a vagabond on your scanner -> you load something with kinetic An apoc hunting serpentis -> explosive ammo A deimos -> em + explo doesnt seem that bad A larger fleetbattle? -> you load your highest damaging ammo since noone tanks there anyway ... There are so many situations where your scanner tells you which damage type to choose before engaging and gives you a huge advantage. A drone carrier is limited to choose its damage types before undocking. There really is no need to restrict that even more by only giving it a bonus to em or thermal damage. |
 Spuki Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:58:00 -
[456]
You got a raven on your scanner that is hunting guristas -> you load em You got a vagabond on your scanner -> you load something with kinetic An apoc hunting serpentis -> explosive ammo A deimos -> em + explo doesnt seem that bad A larger fleetbattle? -> you load your highest damaging ammo since noone tanks there anyway ... There are so many situations where your scanner tells you which damage type to choose before engaging and gives you a huge advantage. A drone carrier is limited to choose its damage types before undocking. There really is no need to restrict that even more by only giving it a bonus to em or thermal damage. |
 Derran |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:02:00 -
[457] I've been a HUGE fan of using drones since beta and always tried to keep my drone skills up for the past 2 1/2 years since I started. I then later equally in love with missiles and EW much further into the game. So seeing drones changed after the other two have been, I was like 'yay'. But after reading both the dev blog and Tuxford's stats for them, I am like 'huh'. I saw some people complaining about EW drones and I have to say, how effective is 1.5 point of jamming strength at most going to be? Against a battleship of say 20 sensor strength (guessing here since I am not in the game at the moment), it has a 7.5% chance of working. So if you have 5 EW drones being used, you have 5 chances at 7.5% using those numbers. Against a frigate, I think the numbers end up being around 15% or so (I think this is a lesser concern though as why would you in most instances want to bother jamming a frigate if you are bigger). And this is with the larger drone. The smaller drones are much less and only work at much closer range as well. As I sit here and think about a possible battle using them, it ends up being that you want to use your combat drones to kill your opponents EW drones before they have a chance of jamming you if you are really scared of it. Which makes some things about battles more interesting because I hate slug fests. Most battles for me where I am not using drones have become where I sit there, activate all my F keys and hope I come out on top. So in regards for these types of drone, I am kinda divided. I like what kind of effect it has on a battle in that you have to stay sharp and focus on the fight, but how worried should I be about them? As a EW pilot, I definitely don't want to have them replace EW in general. One thing I definitely DO like is making them twice as damaging and tough but cutting the amount you can use by the same amount. I hate having space cluttered up with all those drones and it creates unneccessary lag. While it has this cool feeling of having all these little 'ships' at your command, the coolness factor doesn't outweigh the cons. What I don't like is giving the Gallente drone ships that thermal drone damage bonus. It is kind limiting and I think will hurt the dominix if it is just going for straight damage and wants some versatility. I'd like all the drone carriers to just have pure drone damage bonus, not just a bonus to the type of drone damage. On the opposite side of that thought however is that with the other types of drones available and drone carriers still having a drone bay more sizable than other ships you might get worried about what that enemy carrier could be carrying. It also adds a possible logistics role to those drone carriers as well. One idea I thought of for these changes that may make it feel more fair to some people is drones having a capicitor amount that could run out. That way they could run out of cap trying to repair someone, causing a repair delay or being the drones being unable to use EW on someone. Maybe it could recharge or maybe you have to pull them back to recharge, who knows. I'm not sure if the logistics implementing cap would become a nightmare but it is the only thing that comes off the top of my head. I'd like it to stay unlimited in cap for drone weapons but for module style abilities on them, maybe it could work better and not feel overpowered. |
Grimpak |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:02:00 -
[458] btw, this popped up in my corp chat: if we lose the ability of fielding more than 5 drones, but we gain the sentry drones, what about when we go on a fleet battle and everyone has arround 3 sentry drones? multiply that for 100 peeps (50 vs 50). that's right. you thought that domis were a blob in a can, wait till you see that. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you |
 Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:02:00 -
[459] I've been a HUGE fan of using drones since beta and always tried to keep my drone skills up for the past 2 1/2 years since I started. I then later equally in love with missiles and EW much further into the game. So seeing drones changed after the other two have been, I was like 'yay'. But after reading both the dev blog and Tuxford's stats for them, I am like 'huh'. I saw some people complaining about EW drones and I have to say, how effective is 1.5 point of jamming strength at most going to be? Against a battleship of say 20 sensor strength (guessing here since I am not in the game at the moment), it has a 7.5% chance of working. So if you have 5 EW drones being used, you have 5 chances at 7.5% using those numbers. Against a frigate, I think the numbers end up being around 15% or so (I think this is a lesser concern though as why would you in most instances want to bother jamming a frigate if you are bigger). And this is with the larger drone. The smaller drones are much less and only work at much closer range as well. As I sit here and think about a possible battle using them, it ends up being that you want to use your combat drones to kill your opponents EW drones before they have a chance of jamming you if you are really scared of it. Which makes some things about battles more interesting because I hate slug fests. Most battles for me where I am not using drones have become where I sit there, activate all my F keys and hope I come out on top. So in regards for these types of drone, I am kinda divided. I like what kind of effect it has on a battle in that you have to stay sharp and focus on the fight, but how worried should I be about them? As a EW pilot, I definitely don't want to have them replace EW in general. One thing I definitely DO like is making them twice as damaging and tough but cutting the amount you can use by the same amount. I hate having space cluttered up with all those drones and it creates unneccessary lag. While it has this cool feeling of having all these little 'ships' at your command, the coolness factor doesn't outweigh the cons. What I don't like is giving the Gallente drone ships that thermal drone damage bonus. It is kind limiting and I think will hurt the dominix if it is just going for straight damage and wants some versatility. I'd like all the drone carriers to just have pure drone damage bonus, not just a bonus to the type of drone damage. On the opposite side of that thought however is that with the other types of drones available and drone carriers still having a drone bay more sizable than other ships you might get worried about what that enemy carrier could be carrying. It also adds a possible logistics role to those drone carriers as well. One idea I thought of for these changes that may make it feel more fair to some people is drones having a capicitor amount that could run out. That way they could run out of cap trying to repair someone, causing a repair delay or being the drones being unable to use EW on someone. Maybe it could recharge or maybe you have to pull them back to recharge, who knows. I'm not sure if the logistics implementing cap would become a nightmare but it is the only thing that comes off the top of my head. I'd like it to stay unlimited in cap for drone weapons but for module style abilities on them, maybe it could work better and not feel overpowered. |
 Grimpak Gallente Twisted Attitude Apocalyptica. |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:02:00 -
[460] btw, this popped up in my corp chat: if we lose the ability of fielding more than 5 drones, but we gain the sentry drones, what about when we go on a fleet battle and everyone has arround 3 sentry drones? multiply that for 100 peeps (50 vs 50). that's right. you thought that domis were a blob in a can, wait till you see that. -------
|
 Mack Dorgeans |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:04:00 -
[461] I have to agree with those who feel the drone changes overall are bad, as currently laid out. I can understand 15 drones in the air per ship is a game resources problem, but some of the changes just seem to be ill-conceived. Ishtar/Dominix damage bonus: This pretty much kills damage diversification. I think the T2 drones and skills were enough of a way to encourage specialization in a type, since at least there was the option of spending extra training time if you wanted to diversify. I pretty much NEVER use just one damage type, preferring a combination whenever possible. This also means there will be much less demand for T2 medium and heavy drones other than the Hammerhead II and Ogre II. Halved drone bays: OK, so what about a ship with 25m3? Is it 12, 13, or do you round by units of 5 and go to 15m3? Here's another biggie ... is the Thorax going to be 50m3 now? I've never witnessed a lynching before. I would not want to be Tuxford visiting a Thorax pilot's convention. I'm also feeling that suddenly the Deimos I recently learned to fly just became less useful. I see the Ishkur with max skills would be 40m3, which seems to be an upgrade (perhaps the only one here). Other ships that had marginal drone bays to begin with (thinking Catalyst, Taranis, and T1 frigates mainly) may as well have none at all. What about mining drone use? Are the yields doubling to make up for fewer in flight? Drone control limit: 5 total drones controlled is a big hit, and not just to the Ishtar and Dominix. Again, what happens with mining drone use? Drone skills and modules: So, if you want to get the most out of drones, or even keep a status quo, you have to learn a number of new skills, which always hurts when you're talking extra L4/L5 training times. If you fit new modules, you now have drone ships looking somewhat under-slotted if they want to match their former performance. EWAR, jamming, etc.: This all seems sort of unnecessary to me. I guess it's great if you fight in large team engagements, but wasn't that what specialized ships were for? Are these going to be at all useful vs. NPCs? I know it's a PvP game, but aren't most players "carebears" anyway? Overall, I think the additions are going to mean more stuff to try to manage during a battle, making things that much more confusing, and the "nerfs" are mainly going to pigeonhole players through things like racial damage bonuses and fewer options for ships with smaller bays. Again, while I can see the need to fix a game resources problem, some of this seems to be oversimplified (half drone bays, 5 max control) while other parts seem overly complicated (more skills/modules, special effects drones). ------------------- CEO, Lead Scientist Camelot Innovations Got Science? Seeking interns or experienced pros in research, mining, and production disciplines. |
 Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:04:00 -
[462] I have to agree with those who feel the drone changes overall are bad, as currently laid out. I can understand 15 drones in the air per ship is a game resources problem, but some of the changes just seem to be ill-conceived. Ishtar/Dominix damage bonus: This pretty much kills damage diversification. I think the T2 drones and skills were enough of a way to encourage specialization in a type, since at least there was the option of spending extra training time if you wanted to diversify. I pretty much NEVER use just one damage type, preferring a combination whenever possible. This also means there will be much less demand for T2 medium and heavy drones other than the Hammerhead II and Ogre II. Halved drone bays: OK, so what about a ship with 25m3? Is it 12, 13, or do you round by units of 5 and go to 15m3? Here's another biggie ... is the Thorax going to be 50m3 now? I've never witnessed a lynching before. I would not want to be Tuxford visiting a Thorax pilot's convention. I'm also feeling that suddenly the Deimos I recently learned to fly just became less useful. I see the Ishkur with max skills would be 40m3, which seems to be an upgrade (perhaps the only one here). Other ships that had marginal drone bays to begin with (thinking Catalyst, Taranis, and T1 frigates mainly) may as well have none at all. What about mining drone use? Are the yields doubling to make up for fewer in flight? Drone control limit: 5 total drones controlled is a big hit, and not just to the Ishtar and Dominix. Again, what happens with mining drone use? Drone skills and modules: So, if you want to get the most out of drones, or even keep a status quo, you have to learn a number of new skills, which always hurts when you're talking extra L4/L5 training times. If you fit new modules, you now have drone ships looking somewhat under-slotted if they want to match their former performance. EWAR, jamming, etc.: This all seems sort of unnecessary to me. I guess it's great if you fight in large team engagements, but wasn't that what specialized ships were for? Are these going to be at all useful vs. NPCs? I know it's a PvP game, but aren't most players "carebears" anyway? Overall, I think the additions are going to mean more stuff to try to manage during a battle, making things that much more confusing, and the "nerfs" are mainly going to pigeonhole players through things like racial damage bonuses and fewer options for ships with smaller bays. Again, while I can see the need to fix a game resources problem, some of this seems to be oversimplified (half drone bays, 5 max control) while other parts seem overly complicated (more skills/modules, special effects drones). |
Denrace |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:07:00 -
[463] Sir. Tux always gets the biggest threads  ____________________________________________ |
 Denrace Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:07:00 -
[464] Sir. Tux always gets the biggest threads ________________________________________ Forum Signatures just 10Mill ISK. EVEMail me with requests. |
 James Lyrus |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:08:00 -
[465]
What, your fleets didn't use drones already? |
 James Lyrus Lyrus Associates |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:08:00 -
[466]
What, your fleets didn't use drones already? |
 Andouus La |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:14:00 -
[467] lol I'll stay in empire for another year or two. |
 Andouus La Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:14:00 -
[468] lol I'll stay in empire for another year or two. Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Cheechako |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:16:00 -
[469] I'm looking foward to this... a lot  |
 Cheechako Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:16:00 -
[470] I'm looking foward to this... a lot |
 Auvuane |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:18:00 -
[471] I do hope you guys realize you're completely screwing with the balance of the game. You say SmartBombs won't be affected, but they very obviously will. From what you've said, drones will have twice or maybe more the amount of HP they currently have, which will in effect make it take twice as long to kill with a SB. Unless you're planning on doubling the damage that SB's do, and of course if you do that, then they'll end up overpowered in comparison to other weapons, etc... etc... |
 Auvuane |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:18:00 -
[472] I do hope you guys realize you're completely screwing with the balance of the game. You say SmartBombs won't be affected, but they very obviously will. From what you've said, drones will have twice or maybe more the amount of HP they currently have, which will in effect make it take twice as long to kill with a SB. Unless you're planning on doubling the damage that SB's do, and of course if you do that, then they'll end up overpowered in comparison to other weapons, etc... etc... |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:20:00 -
[473] Just a small side-note, given the "drone specialists" complain the nerf is hitting specifically them... currently, in order to use 6 drones one needs to train Drones 5 and Drone Interfacing 1 post changes, to get the same performance out of their 3 drones, one will need to train Drone Interfacting 5 *and* still Drones 5, which is the pre-requirement for interfacing... |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:20:00 -
[474] Just a small side-note, given the "drone specialists" complain the nerf is hitting specifically them... currently, in order to use 6 drones one needs to train Drones 5 and Drone Interfacing 1 post changes, to get the same performance out of their 3 drones, one will need to train Drone Interfacting 5 *and* still Drones 5, which is the pre-requirement for interfacing... |
Elve Sorrow |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:24:00 -
[475]
I'd like to see your current drones do didly at anywhere over 15k, where 99.9% of fleetcombat happens anyway. These things do damage up to 75k. |
 Maya Rkell |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:24:00 -
[476] Tux, Okay, I see the changes. Now, a few things initially: Webbing. 40% for a large? Er...isn't that a little over the top? Unless there's a HUGE stacking penalty, that's OTT. An EW Drone skill. I think you should have to train another skill, maybe rank 3, to use them. Max 5m, sure, but only with some training. I'll stop n00bs from pumping out EW drones from a cruiser. Size specific damage. Now, more than ever, we need size-specific damage. Large drones hitting BS and some damage to cruisers. Medium drones hitting BS and cruisers and some damage to frigs. Small drones hitting everything. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
 Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:24:00 -
[477] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/10/2005 19:41:34 Tux, Okay, I see the changes. Now, a few things initially: Webbing. 40% for a large? Er...isn't that a little over the top? Unless there's a HUGE stacking penalty, that's OTT. An EW Drone skill. I think you should have to train another skill, maybe rank 3, to use them. Max 5m, sure, but only with some training. I'll stop n00bs from pumping out EW drones from a cruiser. Size specific damage. Now, more than ever, we need size-specific damage. Large drones hitting BS and some damage to cruisers. Medium drones hitting BS and cruisers and some damage to frigs. Small drones hitting everything. My specific worry is 2 heavy web drones + 3 heavy damage = dead interceptors with NO slots spent to count them. Fair enough if you sacrifice a med for a web, and evene THEN you won't have reach-out-and-kill capacity that this would give. My next specific worry is thermal drones. Is there any chance that the type-specific drone characteristics could be, say, halves in scope? Yes, it makes damage drones a little more generic but we're getting all sorts of drones anyway //Maya |
 Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:24:00 -
[478]
I'd like to see your current drones do didly at anywhere over 15k, where 99.9% of fleetcombat happens anyway. These things do damage up to 75k. |
 Drakxter |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:26:00 -
[479] I forgot to say in my post before this: I think 15 drones is much better then 5 drones.. /me signs the "Keep 15 drones" list. ------------- |
 Drakxter Gallente Fortunis Novum |
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:26:00 -
[480] I forgot to say in my post before this: I think 15 drones is much better then 5 drones.. /me signs the "Keep 15 drones" list. ------------- |
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