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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:28:00 -
[931]
 Originally by: Tippia
Quite the opposite.
You do not get banned for what you did, ...
You do get banned for what you did. If it says that harassment is not allowed then you get banned, because you harassed someone, not because there is a rule telling you not to.
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Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:29:00 -
[932]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Tippia
Quite the opposite.
You do not get banned for what you did, ...
You do get banned for what you did. If it says that harassment is not allowed then you get banned, because you harassed someone, not because there is a rule telling you not to.
If there was no rule you wouldn't get banned for harassment though.
Retro sig |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:34:00 -
[933]
Originally by: Avon
Nope, all they need to do is get you to click a button which states that you accept the rules, which you did.
If you don't like them, don't agree to them, don't play.
Nonsense. You make it sound like CCP is tricking people into accepting their EULA.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:36:00 -
[934]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/03/2011 18:37:21
Originally by: Avon
If there was no rule you wouldn't get banned for harassment though.
Wrong. If there was no rule can they still ban you regardless of the existence of such a rule.
They can use your incident to add it as a new rule and ask you to accept it again as part of an EULA update.
Again: you do get banned for what you did, not for breaking rules.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:39:00 -
[935]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Avon
Nope, all they need to do is get you to click a button which states that you accept the rules, which you did.
If you don't like them, don't agree to them, don't play.
Nonsense. You make it sound like CCP is tricking people into accepting their EULA.
It may not be tricking people, but a common eula problem is that you often pay for the product before you accept the agreement.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:42:00 -
[936]
Originally by: dexington
It may not be tricking people, but a common eula problem is that you often pay for the product before you accept the agreement.
True, but Avon is only trying to derail my point.
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Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:43:00 -
[937]
Originally by: Whitehound
If there was no rule can they still ban you regardless of the existence of such a rule.
So you agree that there is no issue with CCP banning people that appear on an RMT list?
Retro sig |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:44:00 -
[938]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Avon
Nope, all they need to do is get you to click a button which states that you accept the rules, which you did.
If you don't like them, don't agree to them, don't play.
Nonsense. You make it sound like CCP is tricking people into accepting their EULA.
It may not be tricking people, but a common eula problem is that you often pay for the product before you accept the agreement.
Happily not the case in Eve where you sign up to it when you open A TRIAL ACCOUNT.
Unless of course the character was bought OOG or whatever when yeah I quite agree but that's not CCPs problem now is it? 
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:45:00 -
[939]
After reading the iskbank guys interview from evenews and comparing his statements to certain inviduals statements, could easily make hilarious conclusions that they are the same guy or at least running the same business ;)
...thank god I'm not running the ccp's "boot to the head"-division which handles the ban distribution :)
-------------------------------------------------
Play with the best - die like the rest
starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Centri Sixx
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:46:00 -
[940]
Originally by: Othran
Edited by: Othran on 14/03/2011 18:28:50
Originally by: Centri Sixx
I'm thinking because it's widespread enough that banning the bots and RMT would cause a lot of economic distress. The problem is that EVE's economy is very stable, despite what everyone here is saying is a massive amount of botting and RMT. This is incredibly unusual.
Banning can really only make prices go up, and that is probably why they are hesitating. Less minerals, less ISK, same fixed costs and demand.
Well from a personal viewpoint CCP has a choice :
a) it can do more than indicate a preference for players who actually play rather than bot and observe the rules about in-game and OOG stuff which is frankly obvious to all but the dimmest of under-bridge dwellers;
b) it can tacitly say "free for all, sod the rules do what you like".
My accounts remain suspended and will expire after the much-vaunted FanFest presentation on cheating. If CCP want any more subs from me then that presentation better be worth watching. If its more PR fluff then we know which option is the one CCP tacitly approve.
We'll see soon enough.
Eh, the game is biased against rule followers in many ways. Alt accounts are biased against those using only one, buying characters against those taking the time to train, PLEX buyers versions players against those not willing to drop rl cash for ISK, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I dislike both RMT and bots as much as you, but the argument against them is based on fairness and a level playing field, and EVE really has much less than other games. The only argument left is economic, and ironically it favors bots as they keep producing to fulfill PvP demand: pure mining or ratting players are a minority.
That worries me, because usually botted economies have such super-high inflation that players can barely afford anything. Here doesn't, which means players consume way more than even bots produce.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:46:00 -
[941]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Read what I wrote. There should be an investigation before anyone is banned.
And why does it need an investigation of a list full of player names?
Maybe to confirm that the player has actually done something against the EULA?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:48:00 -
[942]
Edited by: Tippia on 14/03/2011 18:49:56
Originally by: Whitehound
You do get banned for what you did. If it says that harassment is not allowed then you get banned, because you harassed someone, not because there is a rule telling you not to.
Eh. No. If harassment is not allowed, you get banned for breaking the rule that says harassment isn't allowed. You get banned because the rules say you can get banned for breaking that particular rule.
If harassment is allowed, you don't get banned for what you did, because it's allowed.
Quote:
Wrong. If there was no rule can they still ban you regardless of the existence of such a rule.
No. He is 100% right. If there was no rule against harassment, you couldn't be banned for harassment. You can still be banned, and it would still be entirely within the rules (rules you agreed with, btw), but it won't be due to the "no harassment" rule.
In fact, can you come up with an example where they have banned people without those people having broken the rules?
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:49:00 -
[943]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: dexington
It may not be tricking people, but a common eula problem is that you often pay for the product before you accept the agreement.
True, but Avon is only trying to derail my point.
Oh so much trolling, I gotta admire the dedication but...
Irony. Ever heard of it?
You're a Russian language speaker. That's your native language - its obvious when you try to pretend you live in other countries.
Obfuscation - look it up.
Thats you and I wonder why you're so irritated. Perhaps you know Vadim?
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:53:00 -
[944]
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
After reading the iskbank guys interview from evenews and comparing his statements to certain inviduals statements, could easily make hilarious conclusions that they are the same guy or at least running the same business ;)
...thank god I'm not running the ccp's "boot to the head"-division which handles the ban distribution :)
As i read the TOS of the forums, it has nothing to do with the eve eula, you forum and eve account are two seperat things so you can't get banned from eve for trolling the forums.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:08:00 -
[945]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/03/2011 19:12:29
Originally by: Avon
So you agree that there is no issue with CCP banning people that appear on an RMT list?
Do you not read what I have been writing so far? I consider it to be a major issue to ban thousands of players because they appear on some list. There is no proof of RMT.
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Maybe to confirm that the player has actually done something against the EULA?
And this shall be done every time someone sends such a list to CCP? Do you have any idea how much effort this is going to make? And what about this:
16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, ...
17. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.
19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriberÆs personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.
How does publishing huge lists of player names, who supposedly, but without a proof, have acted against the EULA, fit in here?
Originally by: Tippia
Eh. No. If harassment is not allowed, you get banned for breaking the rule that says harassment isn't allowed. You get banned because the rules say you can get banned for breaking that particular rule.
If harassment is allowed, you don't get banned for what you did, because it's allowed.
CCP can ban you for almost anything and do not first need to put it up as a rule. You do get banned for what you did, and it is possible to break a rule and CCP may decide not to ban you.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:18:00 -
[946]
Originally by: Whitehound
I consider it to be a major issue to ban thousands of players because they appear on some list. There is no proof of RMT.
What issue would that be, especially considering thatà Quote:
CCP can ban you for almost anything and do not first need to put it up as a rule.
Just because they can ban you for not liking your face doesn't mean that your rule-breaking isn't the reason they ban you when you break the rules.
However, none of that matters. What we're talking about here is people breaking the rules. Since they break the rules, they will get banned for breaking the rules. Because they broke the rules. What they did was rule-breaking, which makes them subject to the rule that breaking the rules get you banned.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:20:00 -
[947]
Reasons on why sending CCP a fake list is a bad idea.
1. CCP will check and will know if you just sent a fake list
2. The person who sent the fake list would at best get a warning and at worst get a ban.
3. ANY credibility said player had before will forever be gone.
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Linda Flamewalker
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:21:00 -
[948]
Originally by: Whitehound
Do you not read what I have been writing so far? I consider it to be a major issue to ban thousands of players because they appear on some list. There is no proof of RMT.
Much in the same way that we all say, we dont want them banned without proof. But if CCP finds proof in their investigation of said list.. then ban their behinds.
But you will of course ignore that in your constant trolling and calling us a pitch fork wielding mob.
Look at the list as any other report CCP gets. like the one i did earlier today about possible ice mining macro.. Someone tells CCP.. hey we think XXX is a cheater could you look into it? So they do.. if they find something they act, if not they let the person go.
How is this so bleeping hard for even a troll like you to get.. oh wait.. you get it but just troll. Which is fine, nothing good on TV today anyway so this is quite amusing. Go on, i got tons of popcorn. Mm hubby is complaining i am getting fat though.. perhaps carrots.. yes..
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:25:00 -
[949]
@Whitehound
Is what you are saying that it's a huge effort to cross check the a list of names and dates, against the eve player database for matching transactions?. I'm guessing CCP has a code monkey hidden away somewhere that can solve that task in a few hours.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:28:00 -
[950]
Originally by: baltec1
Reasons on why sending CCP a fake list is a bad idea.
1. CCP will check and will know if you just sent a fake list
2. The person who sent the fake list would at best get a warning and at worst get a ban.
3. ANY credibility said player had before will forever be gone.
You are kinda stupid if you send a fake list, and give them you real name.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:45:00 -
[951]
Originally by: baltec1
Reasons on why sending CCP a fake list is a bad idea.
1. CCP will check and will know if you just sent a fake list
2. The person who sent the fake list would at best get a warning and at worst get a ban.
3. ANY credibility said player had before will forever be gone.
For a member of the goonies you sure don't think like one.
*ahem*
1. Vengeful botting corp sets up new rmt site and starts collecting names with all the normal identifing goodies.
2. Vengeful botting corp seeds in the names of players they don't like with made up card details and sends them a large amount of isk when they are known to be inactive for a while.
3. Vengenful botting corp 'leaks' list through a fansite who then posts it on the official forums hoping the targeted players get ingame reprisals for being dirty rmt buyers.
4. ???
5. lulz ensues.
It will happen if it hasn't already. 
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local
[19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 19:56:00 -
[952]
Originally by: dexington
@Whitehound
Is what you are saying that it's a huge effort to cross check the a list of names and dates, against the eve player database for matching transactions?. I'm guessing CCP has a code monkey hidden away somewhere that can solve that task in a few hours.
And then you are going to complain about the lack of content, server lag and what not, because the "code monkey" had to go through a player provided list of accusations instead of working on the game.
There is no way you can proof that any of the Dollar sums listed on EN24 actually existed and therefore do you have no proof of a real money transfer. So all CCP will see is ISKs transactions that happen every day, but no proof of real money.
All CCP can do and is doing is to find bots and reverse all ISKs transactions that were generated by the bots. They still cannot prove that real money was used, but they can prove that bots are running, which is also against the EULA, and they can remove all ISKs generated by them.
CCP could try to press a confession out of each player though. I bet the lynch mob would love it.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:08:00 -
[953]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: baltec1
Reasons on why sending CCP a fake list is a bad idea.
1. CCP will check and will know if you just sent a fake list
2. The person who sent the fake list would at best get a warning and at worst get a ban.
3. ANY credibility said player had before will forever be gone.
For a member of the goonies you sure don't think like one.
*ahem*
1. Vengeful botting corp sets up new rmt site and starts collecting names with all the normal identifing goodies.
2. Vengeful botting corp seeds in the names of players they don't like with made up card details and sends them a large amount of isk when they are known to be inactive for a while.
3. Vengenful botting corp 'leaks' list through a fansite who then posts it on the official forums hoping the targeted players get ingame reprisals for being dirty rmt buyers.
4. ???
5. lulz ensues.
It will happen if it hasn't already.
A cunning plan with just one flaw. CCP follows the isk trail back to whence it came so you might end you getting yourself banned along with the victim
It would work if you are rich and rage quitting
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:14:00 -
[954]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/03/2011 19:58:43
Originally by: dexington
@Whitehound
Is what you are saying that it's a huge effort to cross check the a list of names and dates, against the eve player database for matching transactions?. I'm guessing CCP has a code monkey hidden away somewhere that can solve that task in a few hours.
And then you are going to complain about the lack of content, server lag and what not, because the "code monkey" had to go through a player provided list of accusations instead of working on the game.
There is no way you can proof that any of the Dollar sums listed on EN24 actually existed and therefore do you have no proof of a real money transfer. So all CCP will see is ISKs transactions that happen every day, but no proof of real money.
All CCP can do and is doing is to find bots and reverse all ISKs transactions that were generated by the bots. They still cannot prove that real money was used, but they can prove that bots are running, which is also against the EULA, and they can remove all ISKs generated by them.
CCP could try to press a confession out of each player though ("We know who you are, now tell us everything!!"). I bet the lynch mob would love it.
When CCP don't have to prove anything to anybody, they don't use proof.
They think you're rmted, then ban you, you can go petiton.
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Zhim'Fufu
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:19:00 -
[955]
Originally by: baltec1
A cunning plan with just one flaw. CCP follows the isk trail back to whence it came so you might end you getting yourself banned along with the victim
It would work if you are rich and rage quitting
I'm sorry, I should have said sacrificial rmt site using throwaway botting alts. You know, they way they already operate to reduce the hit from getting caught? But what ccp does is irrelevant. It would be done to ruin a players ingame credibility as ccp will never ever ever publicly confirm or deny any action or non-action they take on any investigations they do.
Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local
[19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:29:00 -
[956]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: baltec1
A cunning plan with just one flaw. CCP follows the isk trail back to whence it came so you might end you getting yourself banned along with the victim
It would work if you are rich and rage quitting
I'm sorry, I should have said sacrificial rmt site using throwaway botting alts. You know, they way they already operate to reduce the hit from getting caught? But what ccp does is irrelevant. It would be done to ruin a players ingame credibility as ccp will never ever ever publicly confirm or deny any action or non-action they take on any investigations they do.
Oh if you put it that way then yea.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:41:00 -
[957]
Edited by: dexington on 14/03/2011 20:41:45
Originally by: Whitehound
And then you are going to complain about the lack of content, server lag and what not, because the "code monkey" had to go through a player provided list of accusations instead of working on the game.
People are always going to complain about something, you can't please everyone, i'm sure CCP is going to do what is in their best interest.
Originally by: Whitehound
There is no way you can proof that any of the Dollar sums listed on EN24 actually existed and therefore do you have no proof of a real money transfer. So all CCP will see is ISKs transactions that happen every day, but no proof of real money.
Don't you mean there is no way to prove to YOU that money was involved, this rest of is willing to take CCP words for their data and the data of the list match and that is all the prove that is needed.
Originally by: Whitehound
All CCP can do and is doing is to find bots and reverse all ISKs transactions that were generated by the bots. They still cannot prove that real money was used, but they can prove that bots are running, which is also against the EULA, and they can remove all ISKs generated by them.
They do need to prove anything else them that you have received isk obtained by illegal means, that's how it works in most/all mmo's. How do you think people got banned before the list was released.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:41:00 -
[958]
Originally by: Tippia
Since they break the rules, they will get banned for breaking the rules. Because they broke the rules. What they did was rule-breaking, which makes them subject to the rule that breaking the rules get you banned.
No. You can get banned, and because of what you did. Not because it was written in the EULA. The EULA only describe several cases, but the list is not said to be complete nor do all the rules describe exactly what you need to do to get banned.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.14 21:02:00 -
[959]
Originally by: Whitehound
No. You can get banned, and because of what you did.
Incorrect. You can get banned. Period. If that's the view you want to take, then it doesn't matter what you did.
If you get banned for breaking the rules, then guess what: you got banned because you broke the rules. What you did was against the rules, and it was the rule-breaking that got you banned.
Either way, what "what you did" is more or less of zero relevance as far as justifying your ban.
Even so: provide an example of someone getting banned without breaking the rules.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.14 21:03:00 -
[960]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Tippia
Since they break the rules, they will get banned for breaking the rules. Because they broke the rules. What they did was rule-breaking, which makes them subject to the rule that breaking the rules get you banned.
No. You can get banned, and because of what you did. Not because it was written in the EULA. The EULA only describe several cases, but the list is not said to be complete nor do all the rules describe exactly what you need to do to get banned.
They are pretty clear about RMT though, aren't they?
Originally by: Ban policy
Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however. warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:
ò
a. Buys in-game goods or services for real world currency through an online auction site or any other venue.
Retro sig |
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