EVE Search - Reduce Thoraxes bay to 100m3

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Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 18:40:00 - [691] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Thorax > Every Cruiser in EVE. Plate or No plate. Without plate, it's simply not true. Folks are already yielding to the logic that a non-plated thorax is quite vulnerable. Originally by: Kaylana Syi Not only do you effect Cruisers if you want Oversized plates to be taken away, you also effect HACs and AF. I don't see how this is a bad thing.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 18:52:00 - [692] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 18:55:04 Are heavy drones a weapon? Yes Are heavy drones a closerange weapon? Yes Are 8 heavy drones a closerange weapon compared to set of med close range guns? Yes Can thorax fit long range guns together with drones? Yes Can thorax use these guns close to the stats of other cruiser with long range guns? Yes Will long range guns and drones of thorax be equal of 5 long range + 4 short range guns setup? Yes In case of short range guns and drones will it be equal of 8-10 short range guns? Yes Can ANY OTHER CRUISER fit 5 long range + 4 short range guns at the same time? NO Can ANY OTHER CRUISER fit 8-10 short range guns? NO Does thorax have half of other cruisers HP, cap or tanking? NO Does thorax have half speed or anything that really prevents it from using extra short range weapon? NO Does all of above means that thorax is a cruiser like any other with a DOUBLE of offence power? Yes
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 18:52:00 - [693] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 18:55:04 Are heavy drones a weapon? Yes Are heavy drones a closerange weapon? Yes Are 8 heavy drones a closerange weapon compared to set of med close range guns? Yes Can thorax fit long range guns together with drones? Yes Can thorax use these guns close to the stats of other cruiser with long range guns? Yes Will long range guns and drones of thorax be equal of 5 long range + 4 short range guns setup? Yes In case of short range guns and drones will it be equal of 8-10 short range guns? Yes Can ANY OTHER CRUISER fit 5 long range + 4 short range guns at the same time? NO Can ANY OTHER CRUISER fit 8-10 short range guns? NO Does thorax have half of other cruisers HP, cap or tanking? NO Does thorax have half speed or anything that really prevents it from using extra short range weapon? NO Does all of above means that thorax is a cruiser like any other with a DOUBLE of offence power? Yes
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:09:00 - [694] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Can thorax use these guns close to the stats of other cruiser with long range guns? Yes Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Knowing that, and knowing that combat will be decided before drones could become a factor, why even consider the "capability" of a long range setup as a part of your argument? A long range thorax will almost invariably lose. Originally by: Nomen Nescio In case of short range guns and drones will it be equal of 8-10 short range guns? Yes Thorax needs this. I've explained why again and again. Originally by: Nomen Nescio Can ANY OTHER CRUISER fit 8-10 short range guns? NO Thorax is the dominant short-range cruiser. Plain and simple. Is it better than any other cruiser in this role? Certainly. Does that make it overpowered? No more so than the rupture is overpowered for its long-range supremacy. I don't cry "overpowered!" when I try and fail to out-range a rupture in my thorax. I fight within the thorax's strengths. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:09:00 - [695] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Can thorax use these guns close to the stats of other cruiser with long range guns? Yes Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Knowing that, and knowing that combat will be decided before drones could become a factor, why even consider the "capability" of a long range setup as a part of your argument? A long range thorax will almost invariably lose. Originally by: Nomen Nescio In case of short range guns and drones will it be equal of 8-10 short range guns? Yes Thorax needs this. I've explained why again and again. Originally by: Nomen Nescio Can ANY OTHER CRUISER fit 8-10 short range guns? NO Thorax is the dominant short-range cruiser. Plain and simple. Is it better than any other cruiser in this role? Certainly. Does that make it overpowered? No more so than the rupture is overpowered for its long-range supremacy. I don't cry "overpowered!" when I try and fail to out-range a rupture in my thorax. I fight within the thorax's strengths.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:23:00 - [696] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Nomen Nescio Can thorax use these guns close to the stats of other cruiser with long range guns? Yes Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Prosecution asks for prove of the thorax long range abilities vs rupture! 200mm rail: norm 0.41, optimal 18km, falloff 10km, 180 grid 720s how: norm 0.36, optimal 20km, falloff 17.5km, 250 grid Fitting 5x200mm = 900 grid, 4x720 = 1000 Damage: base advantage for rail is 13%. Advantage of 5 guns vs 4 is 25%. With 1st bonus the same for both ships, second rupture bonus will NEGATE advantage of 5 guns only at level 4, at max skill level rupture gets 5% bonus rof. With 13% base rail dps advantage. AT LEVEL 5 RUPTURE STILL HAS STILL LOWER NORM DPS for guns Tracking is the same You honor and members of the jury, can we say that rupture outdamages or outranges thorax a lot? Like half maybe? No? Like 40%? Still no? In what cases rupture will have advantage over thorax? At extream cruiser fight ranges only. How big of the advantage? Slim. Prosecution rests.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:23:00 - [697] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Nomen Nescio Can thorax use these guns close to the stats of other cruiser with long range guns? Yes Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Prosecution asks for prove of the thorax long range abilities vs rupture! 200mm rail: norm 0.41, optimal 18km, falloff 10km, 180 grid 720s how: norm 0.36, optimal 20km, falloff 17.5km, 250 grid Fitting 5x200mm = 900 grid, 4x720 = 1000 Damage: base advantage for rail is 13%. Advantage of 5 guns vs 4 is 25%. With 1st bonus the same for both ships, second rupture bonus will NEGATE advantage of 5 guns only at level 4, at max skill level rupture gets 5% bonus rof. With 13% base rail dps advantage. AT LEVEL 5 RUPTURE STILL HAS STILL LOWER NORM DPS for guns Tracking is the same You honor and members of the jury, can we say that rupture outdamages or outranges thorax a lot? Like half maybe? No? Like 40%? Still no? In what cases rupture will have advantage over thorax? At extream cruiser fight ranges only. How big of the advantage? Slim. Prosecution rests.
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:27:00 - [698] Originally by: Nomen Nescio [list] 200mm rail: norm 0.41, optimal 18km, falloff 10km, 180 grid 720s how: norm 0.36, optimal 20km, falloff 17.5km, 250 grid 720 howies are more properly compared to 250 rails. Next witness? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:27:00 - [699] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 19:29:02 Originally by: Nomen Nescio [list] 200mm rail: norm 0.41, optimal 18km, falloff 10km, 180 grid 720s how: norm 0.36, optimal 20km, falloff 17.5km, 250 grid 720 howies are more properly compared to 250 rails. The fitting of which will likely require 3 grid upgrades. Next witness?
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:32:00 - [700] Objection, defence is playing fool with the court! 200 mm is WEAKER rail, but still its better. Defence knows that and tries to dismiss the witness. 250mm rail have more damage and range. They will only be better, but harder to fit. Why bother if 200mm rail shows us the setup which fits, works and totaly shows the disbalance of thorax bay.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:32:00 - [701] Objection, defence is playing fool with the court! 200 mm is WEAKER rail, but still its better. Defence knows that and tries to dismiss the witness. 250mm rail have more damage and range. They will only be better, but harder to fit. Why bother if 200mm rail shows us the setup which fits, works and totaly shows the disbalance of thorax bay.
Toshiro Khan	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:41:00 - [702] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Objection, defence is playing fool with the court! 200 mm is WEAKER rail, but still its better. Defence knows that and tries to dismiss the witness. 250mm rail have more damage and range. They will only be better, but harder to fit. Why bother if 200mm rail shows us the setup which fits, works and totaly shows the disbalance of thorax bay. Objection over ruled... 200mms should be compaired to 650s. compairing the 720 to the 200mm and using its fittings as the basis of your argument is showing the court you don't know what your talking about.
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:41:00 - [703] Originally by: Nomen Nescio Objection, defence is playing fool with the court! 200 mm is WEAKER rail, but still its better. Defence knows that and tries to dismiss the witness. 250mm rail have more damage and range. They will only be better, but harder to fit. Why bother if 200mm rail shows us the setup which fits, works and totaly shows the disbalance of thorax bay. Objection over ruled... 200mms should be compaired to 650s. compairing the 720 to the 200mm and using its fittings as the basis of your argument is showing the court you don't know what your talking about.
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:44:00 - [704] Sigh Let me try this from another angle. First, your assertion that a thorax with medium class rails can compete in pvp is way off base. That would more or less be a whole other discussion. Which takes us back to the example of a non-plated blaster-rax for discussion. You're coming at this argument from a standpoint of static numbers. Numbers which you seem to be right about for the most part, but which you're horribly misapplying. I'm coming at this argument from a standpoint of tactical design and doctrine. Rupture favors long range. It's got hard hitting weapons at that range. It's fast enough to keep its targets at arms length (indeed, to easily pull away from its target if the target is not mwd fitted.) It does not have as impressive of static damage numbers...because it can begin doing its damage more or less as soon as it gets lock, while other cruisers (not just the thorax) have to get closer to begin firing. Opposite end of the spectrum, we have the thorax. VERY impressive overall firepower. Moreso than any other cruiser. Why? Because it has to wait longer than any other cruiser (under fire the whole time) to get into effective range. Just pulling some round numbers here, let's say an average cruiser fight lasts 40 seconds (a fair number in my experience.) If the fight starts at 20km, the thorax will only be shooting and doing damage for more or less half of the engagement. Meanwhile, its mwd is making it a nice and juicy target on the approach. Other cruisers take a more mid-range approach. They have other advantages to suit them: the maller with its incredible durability, and the moa with...well, I'll be honest: I don't think many people have come up with anything the moa is terrific at in pvp. That poor ship needs love. At any rate...these differences in design and execution are what make combat in Eve so much fun. You've got to think about what your target is, and how you're going to use your advantages to overcome its advantages. Instead of everybody having more or less equivalent drones bay, grid, cpu, and optimal range. I'm convinced everybody would be happier with combat if everybody knew it was "target, orbit at 20km, f1-f5" and wait to see who dies. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:44:00 - [705] Sigh Let me try this from another angle. First, your assertion that a thorax with medium class rails can compete in pvp is way off base. That would more or less be a whole other discussion. Which takes us back to the example of a non-plated blaster-rax for discussion. You're coming at this argument from a standpoint of static numbers. Numbers which you seem to be right about for the most part, but which you're horribly misapplying. I'm coming at this argument from a standpoint of tactical design and doctrine. Rupture favors long range. It's got hard hitting weapons at that range. It's fast enough to keep its targets at arms length (indeed, to easily pull away from its target if the target is not mwd fitted.) It does not have as impressive of static damage numbers...because it can begin doing its damage more or less as soon as it gets lock, while other cruisers (not just the thorax) have to get closer to begin firing. Opposite end of the spectrum, we have the thorax. VERY impressive overall firepower. Moreso than any other cruiser. Why? Because it has to wait longer than any other cruiser (under fire the whole time) to get into effective range. Just pulling some round numbers here, let's say an average cruiser fight lasts 40 seconds (a fair number in my experience.) If the fight starts at 20km, the thorax will only be shooting and doing damage for more or less half of the engagement. Meanwhile, its mwd is making it a nice and juicy target on the approach. Other cruisers take a more mid-range approach. They have other advantages to suit them: the maller with its incredible durability, and the moa with...well, I'll be honest: I don't think many people have come up with anything the moa is terrific at in pvp. That poor ship needs love. At any rate...these differences in design and execution are what make combat in Eve so much fun. You've got to think about what your target is, and how you're going to use your advantages to overcome its advantages. Instead of everybody having more or less equivalent drones bay, grid, cpu, and optimal range. I'm convinced everybody would be happier with combat if everybody knew it was "target, orbit at 20km, f1-f5" and wait to see who dies.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:51:00 - [706] Originally by: Toshiro Khan Objection over ruled... 200mms should be compaired to 650s. compairing the 720 to the 200mm and using its fittings as the basis of your argument is showing the court you don't know what your talking about. Prosecution is friking speachless! But calls another witness. 650mm art: norm 0.31, optimal 16km, falloff 17.5km, 200 grid 200mm rail: norm 0.41, optimal 18km, falloff 10km, 180 grid Fitting 5x200mm = 900 grid, 4x650 = 800 grid Damage: base advantage for rail is 32% !!!! Instead of 13% for hows. Defence is gotta be kidding. 32% of dps for 200 grid difference between 720s setup. If defence is so stuburn 650s it is. Prosecution never said fitting is the problem! The point is that thorax is capable of engaing at mid and long ranges with stats comparable with rupture. Rupture has NO real ADVANTAGE to allow thorax to have double offence at close range. What the hell are you talking about ppl?
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 19:51:00 - [707] Originally by: Toshiro Khan Objection over ruled... 200mms should be compaired to 650s. compairing the 720 to the 200mm and using its fittings as the basis of your argument is showing the court you don't know what your talking about. Prosecution is friking speachless! But calls another witness. 650mm art: norm 0.31, optimal 16km, falloff 17.5km, 200 grid 200mm rail: norm 0.41, optimal 18km, falloff 10km, 180 grid Fitting 5x200mm = 900 grid, 4x650 = 800 grid Damage: base advantage for rail is 32% !!!! Instead of 13% for hows. Defence is gotta be kidding. 32% of dps for 200 grid difference between 720s setup. If defence is so stuburn 650s it is. Prosecution never said fitting is the problem! The point is that thorax is capable of engaing at mid and long ranges with stats comparable with rupture. Rupture has NO real ADVANTAGE to allow thorax to have double offence at close range. What the hell are you talking about ppl?
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:00:00 - [708] You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:00:00 - [709] You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:04:00 - [710] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 20:06:38 Ppl dont fit rails because no1 needs a cruiser gunfight at 40km. Thats all. Rupture fits 720s because they can do nothing else. Whats your dps on 2 heavy launchers? And how is it better then 170dps close range? It feels like you are a thorax pilot fearing for your drone bay. PS Sacrifice yeh? And your rupture is not secrifizing everything it can just to compete with rails? What kind of argument is that? You can fit guns, I can fit guns, ranges are close, trackign same, damage is the same. You can't fit antyhing else, I can't also. HP same, how is it any better to use rupture then thorax for long range?
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:04:00 - [711] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 26/08/2005 20:06:38 Ppl dont fit rails because no1 needs a cruiser gunfight at 40km. Thats all. Rupture fits 720s because they can do nothing else. Whats your dps on 2 heavy launchers? And how is it better then 170dps close range? It feels like you are a thorax pilot fearing for your drone bay. PS Sacrifice yeh? And your rupture is not secrifizing everything it can just to compete with rails? What kind of argument is that? You can fit guns, I can fit guns, ranges are close, trackign same, damage is the same. You can't fit antyhing else, I can't also. HP same, how is it any better to use rupture then thorax for long range?
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:07:00 - [712] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 20:07:19 Originally by: Nomen Nescio Whats your dps on 2 heavy launchers? And how is it better then 170dps close range? Well color me stupid. I thought we were comparing long range setups, for which the drones will likely not even come into play. (Another reason I write off the long-range argument as reasonable...what pilot is going to deny himself his biggest advantage?) Originally by: Nomen Nescio It feels like you are a thorax pilot fearing for your drone bay. Come, now. I refrained from the "it sounds like you got your ass kicked by a thorax pilot" argument... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:07:00 - [713] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 20:07:19 Originally by: Nomen Nescio Whats your dps on 2 heavy launchers? And how is it better then 170dps close range? Well color me stupid. I thought we were comparing long range setups, for which the drones will likely not even come into play. (Another reason I write off the long-range argument as reasonable...what pilot is going to deny himself his biggest advantage?) Originally by: Nomen Nescio It feels like you are a thorax pilot fearing for your drone bay. Come, now. I refrained from the "it sounds like you got your ass kicked by a thorax pilot" argument...
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:10:00 - [714] Then you dissmiss any logic and say "rupture is better long range" every time I can't argue much but "you are thorax pilot". Show me numbers where we all can see that rupture is twice better then thorax long range, because thorax is TWICE BETTER the rupture close range. I show you numbers - they both can be fitted for long range and perform WELL. But you fitted for long range can't do anything else, thorax can own both close and long range. What else can I say?
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:10:00 - [715] Then you dissmiss any logic and say "rupture is better long range" every time I can't argue much but "you are thorax pilot". Show me numbers where we all can see that rupture is twice better then thorax long range, because thorax is TWICE BETTER the rupture close range. I show you numbers - they both can be fitted for long range and perform WELL. But you fitted for long range can't do anything else, thorax can own both close and long range. What else can I say?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:11:00 - [716] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 26/08/2005 20:12:40 Originally by: Garreck You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. You're an idiot with blatent disregard for this games mechanics. Not only do you say a rupture is better at long range than a thorax but you say the thorax needs it's UBER damage to kill anything. Well sir a Thorax fighting a ranged rupture will NEVER die because a Thorax will NEVER forced to stay in a fight. Go home and take your lam'a'rax you claim to have with you.. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:11:00 - [717] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 26/08/2005 20:12:40 Originally by: Garreck You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. You're an idiot with blatent disregard for this games mechanics. Not only do you say a rupture is better at long range than a thorax but you say the thorax needs it's UBER damage to kill anything. Well sir a Thorax fighting a ranged rupture will NEVER die because a Thorax will NEVER forced to stay in a fight. Go home and take your lam'a'rax you claim to have with you.. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:14:00 - [718] Originally by: Nomen Nescio I show you numbers - they both can be fitted for long range and perform WELL. But you fitted for long range can't do anything else, thorax can own both close and long range. What else can I say? Heck, someone else trying to tell me the thorax is overpowered provided the numbers earlier, saying he could get 200dps from his rupture. Assuming a 20 second approach time, that's 4000 damage (before resists and tracking factors, of course, but hey...you're throwing 'raw' dps at me as well.) 4000 damage. Before the thorax even begins. Is that a good enough number for you? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:14:00 - [719] Originally by: Nomen Nescio I show you numbers - they both can be fitted for long range and perform WELL. But you fitted for long range can't do anything else, thorax can own both close and long range. What else can I say? Heck, someone else trying to tell me the thorax is overpowered provided the numbers earlier, saying he could get 200dps from his rupture. Assuming a 20 second approach time, that's 4000 damage (before resists and tracking factors, of course, but hey...you're throwing 'raw' dps at me as well.) 4000 damage. Before the thorax even begins. Is that a good enough number for you?
Garreck	Posted - 2005.08.26 20:21:00 - [720] Originally by: Kaylana Syi You're an idiot with blatent disregard for this games mechanics. Not only do you say a rupture is better at long range than a thorax but you say the thorax needs it's UBER damage to kill anything. Well sir a Thorax fighting a ranged rupture will NEVER die because a Thorax will NEVER forced to stay in a fight. Go home and take your lam'a'rax you claim to have with you.. Most 1v1's end with somebody running. That's the nature of a lot of folks' mindsets anymore. We're assuming both targets stay until one dies for the sake of numbers. Give a rupture and a thorax each an interceptor to work with, and things get really interesting, don't they? Unfortunately, too many factors come into play at that point to really argue the "overpowered" issue. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.

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