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 Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three    |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[931]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus
|
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[932] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[933] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[934] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... |
 xOm3gAx |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:34:00 -
[935] you know i read through alot of this and though i can see points on both sides does the "nerf the rax" side all know (i know alot of u do as i know who quite a few of u are) that all u have to do to kill a rax is drop its drones then hit the rax.... also on a side note imho other cruisers should be brought up to par with what they should be. im tired of everything being nerfed, and im not even gonna bother making a list if you've been in the game since castor or ealier you all know about the nerfs that broke more then it fixed. i actually wrote alot more but it had to much flame bait in it dispite the valid points made. Bottom line bring other cruisers up to par before touching the rax odds are they can just leave the rax as is if they did that and it would be a tad more balanced though bb's work great vs rax's and a few others i cant think of atm. ----------------- *Decloaks and starts blasting your sig* Applesauce Biotch Ok who nerf batted my sig >again<? *^^Bows^^* ^^ALL HAIL THE UBERNESS OF Thee^^ Succumb to your nightmares Darkness |
 xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:34:00 -
[936] you know i read through alot of this and though i can see points on both sides does the "nerf the rax" side all know (i know alot of u do as i know who quite a few of u are) that all u have to do to kill a rax is drop its drones then hit the rax.... also on a side note imho other cruisers should be brought up to par with what they should be. im tired of everything being nerfed, and im not even gonna bother making a list if you've been in the game since castor or ealier you all know about the nerfs that broke more then it fixed. i actually wrote alot more but it had to much flame bait in it dispite the valid points made. Bottom line bring other cruisers up to par before touching the rax odds are they can just leave the rax as is if they did that and it would be a tad more balanced though bb's work great vs rax's and a few others i cant think of atm. "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99 Currently Accepting Contracts contact xOm3gAx ingame. |
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:34:00 -
[937] you know i read through alot of this and though i can see points on both sides does the "nerf the rax" side all know (i know alot of u do as i know who quite a few of u are) that all u have to do to kill a rax is drop its drones then hit the rax.... also on a side note imho other cruisers should be brought up to par with what they should be. im tired of everything being nerfed, and im not even gonna bother making a list if you've been in the game since castor or ealier you all know about the nerfs that broke more then it fixed. i actually wrote alot more but it had to much flame bait in it dispite the valid points made. Bottom line bring other cruisers up to par before touching the rax odds are they can just leave the rax as is if they did that and it would be a tad more balanced though bb's work great vs rax's and a few others i cant think of atm. "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99 Currently Accepting Contracts contact xOm3gAx ingame. |
 Jim Raynor |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:42:00 -
[938]
yes let's beef up the other 12 cruisers so they can go toe to toe with the thorax.. whatever. thorax needs its drone bay nerfed, if you want a drone cruiser, get a vexor, thorax isn't -supposed- to be it.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE |
 Jim Raynor Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:42:00 -
[939]
yes let's beef up the other 12 cruisers so they can go toe to toe with the thorax.. whatever. thorax needs its drone bay nerfed, if you want a drone cruiser, get a vexor, thorax isn't -supposed- to be it.. ------ I'll make a sig later. |
Jim Raynor Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2005.08.31 06:42:00 -
[940]
yes let's beef up the other 12 cruisers so they can go toe to toe with the thorax.. whatever. thorax needs its drone bay nerfed, if you want a drone cruiser, get a vexor, thorax isn't -supposed- to be it.. ------ I'll make a sig later. |
 JimaraJa |
Posted - 2005.08.31 07:16:00 -
[941] The MK2 Project - Small ship improvements Improve the Tech 1 Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Minor changes in most cases, but some underutilized (or not used) ships will get new roles, perhaps a minimized role of Tech 2 ships, like Logistics. Could lead to minor changes to Faction ships and Tech 2 ships if deemed appropriate (You currently need to have special roles to access these ships on Singularity). From the In-Testing section of Patch Notes. People need to chill out and wait and see what they do in the MK2 Project. |
 JimaraJa |
Posted - 2005.08.31 07:16:00 -
[942] The MK2 Project - Small ship improvements Improve the Tech 1 Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Minor changes in most cases, but some underutilized (or not used) ships will get new roles, perhaps a minimized role of Tech 2 ships, like Logistics. Could lead to minor changes to Faction ships and Tech 2 ships if deemed appropriate (You currently need to have special roles to access these ships on Singularity). From the In-Testing section of Patch Notes. People need to chill out and wait and see what they do in the MK2 Project. |
JimaraJa |
Posted - 2005.08.31 07:16:00 -
[943] The MK2 Project - Small ship improvements Improve the Tech 1 Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battlecruisers. Minor changes in most cases, but some underutilized (or not used) ships will get new roles, perhaps a minimized role of Tech 2 ships, like Logistics. Could lead to minor changes to Faction ships and Tech 2 ships if deemed appropriate (You currently need to have special roles to access these ships on Singularity). From the In-Testing section of Patch Notes. People need to chill out and wait and see what they do in the MK2 Project. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[944]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[945]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[946]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus
|
 Elrathias |
Posted - 2005.08.31 18:10:00 -
[947]
half-wrong, cladari can fit them but not utilize them. examples: carcal, blackbird. moa can accutally use it but its worthless like the others anyway. -------------------------- |
 Elrathias Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2005.08.31 18:10:00 -
[948]
half-wrong, cladari can fit them but not utilize them. examples: carcal, blackbird. moa can accutally use it but its worthless like the others anyway. -------------------------- |
Elrathias Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2005.08.31 18:10:00 -
[949]
half-wrong, cladari can fit them but not utilize them. examples: carcal, blackbird. moa can accutally use it but its worthless like the others anyway. -------------------------- |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[950] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:39:27 *** APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG, 4 PART POST, BUT I DECIDED TO ANSWER TWO POSTS OF MY FELLOW NYXUS IN DETAIL, AND SINCE HE WASNT SHORT EITHER, THE END RESULT BECAME ... LONG. THANK TO THE QUOTES. ***
Really? How so? Are cruisers supposed to be 'dead on sight' kind of ships? A ship either needs to have enough firepower to dish out its share of damage while it lasts, or enough armor to last while it dishes out its share of damage. The thorax is the second kind of ship at the moment. It is slow to deal its damage, but it deals a good ammount of damage. More than other ships using plates, that's sure. However, it is not the fault of the 'rax, that other ships are unbalanced, and not really up to the new TL2 playing field. Face it. With TL2 out, ships deal a lot more damage on average. Some TL2 ships have resistances, that make the 'rax look like some thin toilet paper. Unless TL1 ships get a boost to their survivalability, they die before they even have a chance to fire. Only 'not TL2 assault' ships i see in battles are interceptors, because they can outrun the bullets, battleships, because they've got the big guns and thoraxes / mallers, because they can fit the plates and still retain some sense of usefulness. Before the plate changes, it was all BS, Inty, AF or HAC. Nothing else did any good. Do you find that to be alright? Don't you think, that instead of nerfing those few TL1 ships, that can still be used in PvP, maybe it would be time to make the other ones useful? Do you think that i'm the one with it's head in the sand?
Thats right, no other cruiser can, and even with these stats, the rax is nowhere near uber. Sure it beats most other TL1 cruisers, but thats a problem with those cruisers that needs to be addressed. With these changes, the rax has finally GOT A CHANCE against battleships and even TL2 ships. Do they win all the time? Hell no. But if there is just one more rax with ya, then you got some serious chance, if the opponent is not prepared enough. You think that 2vs1 should not win, just because that 1 happens to be in a ship worth 100 million ISK, then think again. Those are not worth 100 mils, because they are 10 times better than the rax, but because there is an artificial lack of supply for them. Period. 1 on 1, about any decent HAC can beat a rax. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
 csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[951] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:45:10
I fly those babies every day, and i know very well what they can, and can't do. You know what, one of my mates soloed a Armageddon with his Rax. The arma had 10 heavy drones, the rax had 8. You know what happened? The rax started to shoot down the drones of the Arma, and once the drones died, he commenced killing the BS. Now if that BS would have done the same, the rax would now be dead. If the BS would have had even a single Large SB, the rax would now be dead. He didnt. Made the mistake when fitting, made the mistake when engaging and surely made the mistake when selecting the primary target. FYI: Drones can attack / take out drones. Small guns do as well. About the other stats. Sure the drones are in range of the target within 13 seconds, unless the target is moving away. If the target is only moving at 500m/s, which is reasonable from even a cruiser, the drones would take 25-30 seconds to reach firing range. Another correction is drone DPS. The highest damaging drone, the Ogre does 22dps on TL1. That is thermal damage, meaning that the minimum natural shield resistance against it, which is 20% recudes your DPS to 17.6 agains the shield, and armor is even worse with just 12.1 on armor. That with maxed out Heavy Drones skill. Let's average the two for now: 14.85DPS / drone (x8 drones = 118.8DPS) Now TL2 drones hit a lot harder, but not that much either. Base DPS is 29.4 (with maxed out drone skills, and TL2 specialization skills). Reduce that with the above mentioned resistances, you'll end up with 23.52 on shields, 16.17 on armor, or 19.845DPS on average. (x8 = 158.76DPS) Thats 158.76DPS, from the best drones, with the best skill you can get. Did i mention, that you spent more on the drones, that you spent on the whole ship?
I make those videos. At least i do as well. You know what? Videos are made about victories, about ganks. They do not show how i lost my last 10 thoraxes. They do not show how i got ganked by 3 assault friggies and their 9 small guns. They do not show the other side of the 'oh so powerful thorax world'. They make you believe, that the ship is uber, that you can gank anything that comes in your way. Well, in reality, thoraxes never - or rarely - work alone. They MUST work in packs, as a single thorax does not have the firepower to go against anything more than the odd AF, Inty or TL1 cruiser. You can have 10 thoraxes, and a single smartbomb fitted BS can wipe out your fleet's firepower in a matter of seconds. You want to tell me the pros and cons of those ships? Tell me how overpowered or unbalanced they are? You must wake up sooner to do that. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
 csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[952] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:39:27 *** APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG, 4 PART POST, BUT I DECIDED TO ANSWER TWO POSTS OF MY FELLOW NYXUS IN DETAIL, AND SINCE HE WASNT SHORT EITHER, THE END RESULT BECAME ... LONG. THANK TO THE QUOTES. ***
Really? How so? Are cruisers supposed to be 'dead on sight' kind of ships? A ship either needs to have enough firepower to dish out its share of damage while it lasts, or enough armor to last while it dishes out its share of damage. The thorax is the second kind of ship at the moment. It is slow to deal its damage, but it deals a good ammount of damage. More than other ships using plates, that's sure. However, it is not the fault of the 'rax, that other ships are unbalanced, and not really up to the new TL2 playing field. Face it. With TL2 out, ships deal a lot more damage on average. Some TL2 ships have resistances, that make the 'rax look like some thin toilet paper. Unless TL1 ships get a boost to their survivalability, they die before they even have a chance to fire. Only 'not TL2 assault' ships i see in battles are interceptors, because they can outrun the bullets, battleships, because they've got the big guns and thoraxes / mallers, because they can fit the plates and still retain some sense of usefulness. Before the plate changes, it was all BS, Inty, AF or HAC. Nothing else did any good. Do you find that to be alright? Don't you think, that instead of nerfing those few TL1 ships, that can still be used in PvP, maybe it would be time to make the other ones useful? Do you think that i'm the one with it's head in the sand?
Thats right, no other cruiser can, and even with these stats, the rax is nowhere near uber. Sure it beats most other TL1 cruisers, but thats a problem with those cruisers that needs to be addressed. With these changes, the rax has finally GOT A CHANCE against battleships and even TL2 ships. Do they win all the time? Hell no. But if there is just one more rax with ya, then you got some serious chance, if the opponent is not prepared enough. You think that 2vs1 should not win, just because that 1 happens to be in a ship worth 100 million ISK, then think again. Those are not worth 100 mils, because they are 10 times better than the rax, but because there is an artificial lack of supply for them. Period. 1 on 1, about any decent HAC can beat a rax. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[953] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:45:10
I fly those babies every day, and i know very well what they can, and can't do. You know what, one of my mates soloed a Armageddon with his Rax. The arma had 10 heavy drones, the rax had 8. You know what happened? The rax started to shoot down the drones of the Arma, and once the drones died, he commenced killing the BS. Now if that BS would have done the same, the rax would now be dead. If the BS would have had even a single Large SB, the rax would now be dead. He didnt. Made the mistake when fitting, made the mistake when engaging and surely made the mistake when selecting the primary target. FYI: Drones can attack / take out drones. Small guns do as well. About the other stats. Sure the drones are in range of the target within 13 seconds, unless the target is moving away. If the target is only moving at 500m/s, which is reasonable from even a cruiser, the drones would take 25-30 seconds to reach firing range. Another correction is drone DPS. The highest damaging drone, the Ogre does 22dps on TL1. That is thermal damage, meaning that the minimum natural shield resistance against it, which is 20% recudes your DPS to 17.6 agains the shield, and armor is even worse with just 12.1 on armor. That with maxed out Heavy Drones skill. Let's average the two for now: 14.85DPS / drone (x8 drones = 118.8DPS) Now TL2 drones hit a lot harder, but not that much either. Base DPS is 29.4 (with maxed out drone skills, and TL2 specialization skills). Reduce that with the above mentioned resistances, you'll end up with 23.52 on shields, 16.17 on armor, or 19.845DPS on average. (x8 = 158.76DPS) Thats 158.76DPS, from the best drones, with the best skill you can get. Did i mention, that you spent more on the drones, that you spent on the whole ship?
I make those videos. At least i do as well. You know what? Videos are made about victories, about ganks. They do not show how i lost my last 10 thoraxes. They do not show how i got ganked by 3 assault friggies and their 9 small guns. They do not show the other side of the 'oh so powerful thorax world'. They make you believe, that the ship is uber, that you can gank anything that comes in your way. Well, in reality, thoraxes never - or rarely - work alone. They MUST work in packs, as a single thorax does not have the firepower to go against anything more than the odd AF, Inty or TL1 cruiser. You can have 10 thoraxes, and a single smartbomb fitted BS can wipe out your fleet's firepower in a matter of seconds. You want to tell me the pros and cons of those ships? Tell me how overpowered or unbalanced they are? You must wake up sooner to do that. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[954] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:39:27 *** APOLOGIZE FOR THE LONG, 4 PART POST, BUT I DECIDED TO ANSWER TWO POSTS OF MY FELLOW NYXUS IN DETAIL, AND SINCE HE WASNT SHORT EITHER, THE END RESULT BECAME ... LONG. THANK TO THE QUOTES. ***
Really? How so? Are cruisers supposed to be 'dead on sight' kind of ships? A ship either needs to have enough firepower to dish out its share of damage while it lasts, or enough armor to last while it dishes out its share of damage. The thorax is the second kind of ship at the moment. It is slow to deal its damage, but it deals a good ammount of damage. More than other ships using plates, that's sure. However, it is not the fault of the 'rax, that other ships are unbalanced, and not really up to the new TL2 playing field. Face it. With TL2 out, ships deal a lot more damage on average. Some TL2 ships have resistances, that make the 'rax look like some thin toilet paper. Unless TL1 ships get a boost to their survivalability, they die before they even have a chance to fire. Only 'not TL2 assault' ships i see in battles are interceptors, because they can outrun the bullets, battleships, because they've got the big guns and thoraxes / mallers, because they can fit the plates and still retain some sense of usefulness. Before the plate changes, it was all BS, Inty, AF or HAC. Nothing else did any good. Do you find that to be alright? Don't you think, that instead of nerfing those few TL1 ships, that can still be used in PvP, maybe it would be time to make the other ones useful? Do you think that i'm the one with it's head in the sand?
Thats right, no other cruiser can, and even with these stats, the rax is nowhere near uber. Sure it beats most other TL1 cruisers, but thats a problem with those cruisers that needs to be addressed. With these changes, the rax has finally GOT A CHANCE against battleships and even TL2 ships. Do they win all the time? Hell no. But if there is just one more rax with ya, then you got some serious chance, if the opponent is not prepared enough. You think that 2vs1 should not win, just because that 1 happens to be in a ship worth 100 million ISK, then think again. Those are not worth 100 mils, because they are 10 times better than the rax, but because there is an artificial lack of supply for them. Period. 1 on 1, about any decent HAC can beat a rax. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:36:00 -
[955] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:45:10
I fly those babies every day, and i know very well what they can, and can't do. You know what, one of my mates soloed a Armageddon with his Rax. The arma had 10 heavy drones, the rax had 8. You know what happened? The rax started to shoot down the drones of the Arma, and once the drones died, he commenced killing the BS. Now if that BS would have done the same, the rax would now be dead. If the BS would have had even a single Large SB, the rax would now be dead. He didnt. Made the mistake when fitting, made the mistake when engaging and surely made the mistake when selecting the primary target. FYI: Drones can attack / take out drones. Small guns do as well. About the other stats. Sure the drones are in range of the target within 13 seconds, unless the target is moving away. If the target is only moving at 500m/s, which is reasonable from even a cruiser, the drones would take 25-30 seconds to reach firing range. Another correction is drone DPS. The highest damaging drone, the Ogre does 22dps on TL1. That is thermal damage, meaning that the minimum natural shield resistance against it, which is 20% recudes your DPS to 17.6 agains the shield, and armor is even worse with just 12.1 on armor. That with maxed out Heavy Drones skill. Let's average the two for now: 14.85DPS / drone (x8 drones = 118.8DPS) Now TL2 drones hit a lot harder, but not that much either. Base DPS is 29.4 (with maxed out drone skills, and TL2 specialization skills). Reduce that with the above mentioned resistances, you'll end up with 23.52 on shields, 16.17 on armor, or 19.845DPS on average. (x8 = 158.76DPS) Thats 158.76DPS, from the best drones, with the best skill you can get. Did i mention, that you spent more on the drones, that you spent on the whole ship?
I make those videos. At least i do as well. You know what? Videos are made about victories, about ganks. They do not show how i lost my last 10 thoraxes. They do not show how i got ganked by 3 assault friggies and their 9 small guns. They do not show the other side of the 'oh so powerful thorax world'. They make you believe, that the ship is uber, that you can gank anything that comes in your way. Well, in reality, thoraxes never - or rarely - work alone. They MUST work in packs, as a single thorax does not have the firepower to go against anything more than the odd AF, Inty or TL1 cruiser. You can have 10 thoraxes, and a single smartbomb fitted BS can wipe out your fleet's firepower in a matter of seconds. You want to tell me the pros and cons of those ships? Tell me how overpowered or unbalanced they are? You must wake up sooner to do that. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
 csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[956]
Nowhere. As i said, the thorax is just there, where all other cruisers should be on the power scale.
Other ships are clearly unbalanced. Drone carriers should have double or tripe of the bay size they do have now, so they can have spare drones with them as well. If you reduce the 'rax bay to 100, it will solve nothing. Thoraxes will only be able to go up against groups about half the size they go now, weakening them significantly, but since thoraxes rarely fly alone, they'll still take the kills. So what? Take the easy way, and create a half solution, that solves nothing at the end?
The problem is, that to be of any use, you need the 1600 plates, but if you fit those, you do not have the powergrid to do anything else. The thorax is the exception here. So instead of the plates, maybe they should have increased (doubled maybe) the HP of all cruisers, so that when fitting smaller plates, their survivalability still stays somewhere on the positive side of the scale.
See.. The problem is, that as Assault Frigs made frigates obsolete, so did HACs with cruisers. a) A cruiser can't deal enough damage to kill a HAC, damn.. not even to kill an AF, or if it could deal enough damage, it sure as hell do not live long enough to deal that damage. b) Intys are just too fast to be fought effectively from a cruiser. c) Battleships outclass cruisers in both firepower and armor. I have to ask your question then: why would i fly a cruiser? What should be it's role? Shouldn't it have at least a chance against HACs? Shouldnt it be able to blast away any frig class ship if fitted with small guns and appropriate tracking / slowing equipment? Shouldnt it be able to stand long enough to be more than just 'splash.. oh my.. was that a cruiser?' for a BS pilot? I think it should. Now apart from the rax, no other cruiser qualifies with a 'because it has a chance' answer to the question i asked. - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[957] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:47:22
Just because you are seemingly obsessed with numbers. Short range is anything below 40km for me. between 40 and 80 km, it is medium range, and outside 80km, it is long range.
To answer your question. Because in an armageddon, i can have 10 times the armor, 5 times the hitting power just from the guns, and 2 more heavy drones out. Is that an answer good enough for you? I wouldnt fly any other TL1 cruiser though, as they are not worth flying. If you want to achieve that with the rax, then go ahead. You'll be first to leave when EVE becomes a boring piece of sh!t from all the nerfings, so maybe we'll get our chance to make somehting out of it before the end.
I would challenge you to come up with a rax, and prove me that it is so uber, but since you would be beaten and on the ground in about 30 seconds, i rather not do it. Why are you so obsessed with other cruisers? Other cruisers do not pose a threat to the rax, because they are unbalanced, extremely weak compared to the rest of EVE. Try comparing the rax to an assault frig (or two for that matter) or a HAC, maybe a BS. Those are that you face in your thorax, not Moas and Ruptures, because noone uses Moas and Ruptures. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE BIG STEAMING PILE OF SH!T. Again, as a RAX user, i repeat. Hear that? I REPEAT, as i already said it once. YES. THE RAX IS UBER. How so? All other TL1 cruisers are utterly useless for PvP. Only the rax has a chance ATM. Now if you think, that TL1 cruisers have no place in PvP, then use that as an argument, but do not compare the rax to them again, as, and i say it again, they are clearly inferior to the rax and noone really questioned that. What people question tho is whether the rax is right the way it is, or is it TOO powerful compared to the other ships in EVE? Compared how TL1 cruisers should be?
Please do not ask. It would be one more pointless question to ask. Answer my question about where the TL1 cruisers should be in EVE please. Then tell me which one is at the right place. The Moa (or the Rupture, or Omen) or the Thorax? - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. - - |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[958]
Nowhere. As i said, the thorax is just there, where all other cruisers should be on the power scale.
Other ships are clearly unbalanced. Drone carriers should have double or tripe of the bay size they do have now, so they can have spare drones with them as well. If you reduce the 'rax bay to 100, it will solve nothing. Thoraxes will only be able to go up against groups about half the size they go now, weakening them significantly, but since thoraxes rarely fly alone, they'll still take the kills. So what? Take the easy way, and create a half solution, that solves nothing at the end?
The problem is, that to be of any use, you need the 1600 plates, but if you fit those, you do not have the powergrid to do anything else. The thorax is the exception here. So instead of the plates, maybe they should have increased (doubled maybe) the HP of all cruisers, so that when fitting smaller plates, their survivalability still stays somewhere on the positive side of the scale.
See.. The problem is, that as Assault Frigs made frigates obsolete, so did HACs with cruisers. a) A cruiser can't deal enough damage to kill a HAC, damn.. not even to kill an AF, or if it could deal enough damage, it sure as hell do not live long enough to deal that damage. b) Intys are just too fast to be fought effectively from a cruiser. c) Battleships outclass cruisers in both firepower and armor. I have to ask your question then: why would i fly a cruiser? What should be it's role? Shouldn't it have at least a chance against HACs? Shouldnt it be able to blast away any frig class ship if fitted with small guns and appropriate tracking / slowing equipment? Shouldnt it be able to stand long enough to be more than just 'splash.. oh my.. was that a cruiser?' for a BS pilot? I think it should. Now apart from the rax, no other cruiser qualifies with a 'because it has a chance' answer to the question i asked. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[959] Edited by: csebal on 31/08/2005 19:47:22
Just because you are seemingly obsessed with numbers. Short range is anything below 40km for me. between 40 and 80 km, it is medium range, and outside 80km, it is long range.
To answer your question. Because in an armageddon, i can have 10 times the armor, 5 times the hitting power just from the guns, and 2 more heavy drones out. Is that an answer good enough for you? I wouldnt fly any other TL1 cruiser though, as they are not worth flying. If you want to achieve that with the rax, then go ahead. You'll be first to leave when EVE becomes a boring piece of sh!t from all the nerfings, so maybe we'll get our chance to make somehting out of it before the end.
I would challenge you to come up with a rax, and prove me that it is so uber, but since you would be beaten and on the ground in about 30 seconds, i rather not do it. Why are you so obsessed with other cruisers? Other cruisers do not pose a threat to the rax, because they are unbalanced, extremely weak compared to the rest of EVE. Try comparing the rax to an assault frig (or two for that matter) or a HAC, maybe a BS. Those are that you face in your thorax, not Moas and Ruptures, because noone uses Moas and Ruptures. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE BIG STEAMING PILE OF SH!T. Again, as a RAX user, i repeat. Hear that? I REPEAT, as i already said it once. YES. THE RAX IS UBER. How so? All other TL1 cruisers are utterly useless for PvP. Only the rax has a chance ATM. Now if you think, that TL1 cruisers have no place in PvP, then use that as an argument, but do not compare the rax to them again, as, and i say it again, they are clearly inferior to the rax and noone really questioned that. What people question tho is whether the rax is right the way it is, or is it TOO powerful compared to the other ships in EVE? Compared how TL1 cruisers should be?
Please do not ask. It would be one more pointless question to ask. Answer my question about where the TL1 cruisers should be in EVE please. Then tell me which one is at the right place. The Moa (or the Rupture, or Omen) or the Thorax? My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
csebal Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2005.08.31 19:38:00 -
[960]
Nowhere. As i said, the thorax is just there, where all other cruisers should be on the power scale.
Other ships are clearly unbalanced. Drone carriers should have double or tripe of the bay size they do have now, so they can have spare drones with them as well. If you reduce the 'rax bay to 100, it will solve nothing. Thoraxes will only be able to go up against groups about half the size they go now, weakening them significantly, but since thoraxes rarely fly alone, they'll still take the kills. So what? Take the easy way, and create a half solution, that solves nothing at the end?
The problem is, that to be of any use, you need the 1600 plates, but if you fit those, you do not have the powergrid to do anything else. The thorax is the exception here. So instead of the plates, maybe they should have increased (doubled maybe) the HP of all cruisers, so that when fitting smaller plates, their survivalability still stays somewhere on the positive side of the scale.
See.. The problem is, that as Assault Frigs made frigates obsolete, so did HACs with cruisers. a) A cruiser can't deal enough damage to kill a HAC, damn.. not even to kill an AF, or if it could deal enough damage, it sure as hell do not live long enough to deal that damage. b) Intys are just too fast to be fought effectively from a cruiser. c) Battleships outclass cruisers in both firepower and armor. I have to ask your question then: why would i fly a cruiser? What should be it's role? Shouldn't it have at least a chance against HACs? Shouldnt it be able to blast away any frig class ship if fitted with small guns and appropriate tracking / slowing equipment? Shouldnt it be able to stand long enough to be more than just 'splash.. oh my.. was that a cruiser?' for a BS pilot? I think it should. Now apart from the rax, no other cruiser qualifies with a 'because it has a chance' answer to the question i asked. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Rest.In.Peace HUN |
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