EVE Search - New drones, modules and what not

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Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:24:00 - [2101] Originally by: Paradox Eve Not with a Dominix you dont. So your statement remains false, no matter how much you want it to be true. Try again. Originally by: DevBlog But what if that dominix pilot only had Gallente Battleship skill at level 4 and drone interfacing at level 4. Now that pilot could use 13 drones but after these changes he could use 5 but they would give the equivilant of 12.6 drones. Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. Quote: Yeah, you can do math. But you can't read. Here is what I said: "It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes." Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I don't see the point of that, of course they are the same, I'll grant that I didn't clearly read your new statement and realize you were changing what you were comparing and saying was small (something that was 50% different, by no means 'small') to a new comparison you made up which is actually 0. I said the original difference was 50%, it was. I think I know what you mean (though it's not what you said), that the percentage difference between a Dominix's drone damage output when using a webber drone is relatively small compared to the difference between a non-Dominixs drone damage output when using a webber drone. But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. If we reduced a Tristans missile damage in half, and reduced a Ravens missile damage in half, then argued that it was fine because they both are losing 50% of their missile damage, anyone would clearly see the logical flaw involved here (in case you don't here it is: reducing by 20% a ships primary weapon is not the same as reducing by 20% a different ships tertiary weapon). Quote: Throwing this "50%" number around is just a number game on your part. I can do it too, look: The Domi looses the exact same percentage, 20%, of it's drone dmg when it uses a new drone vs an 'old' drone compared to another ship using a new drone. It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. This "small dmg loss over another pilot" you speak of, is 50% of 2 current standard drones of damage (with maxed skills). You lose 50% more damage, thus the "dmg loss over another pilot" is 50%, that's just how it is. I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out), as you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I'd certainly trade the +50% dronebay to keep my +50% drone efficacy over others, and if others would as well, then this implies that my opinion of the tradeoff probably 'holds more water' if you will. K
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:24:00 - [2102] Originally by: Paradox Eve Not with a Dominix you dont. So your statement remains false, no matter how much you want it to be true. Try again. Originally by: DevBlog But what if that dominix pilot only had Gallente Battleship skill at level 4 and drone interfacing at level 4. Now that pilot could use 13 drones but after these changes he could use 5 but they would give the equivilant of 12.6 drones. Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. Quote: Yeah, you can do math. But you can't read. Here is what I said: "It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes." Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I don't see the point of that, of course they are the same, I'll grant that I didn't clearly read your new statement and realize you were changing what you were comparing and saying was small (something that was 50% different, by no means 'small') to a new comparison you made up which is actually 0. I said the original difference was 50%, it was. I think I know what you mean (though it's not what you said), that the percentage difference between a Dominix's drone damage output when using a webber drone is relatively small compared to the difference between a non-Dominixs drone damage output when using a webber drone. But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. If we reduced a Tristans missile damage in half, and reduced a Ravens missile damage in half, then argued that it was fine because they both are losing 50% of their missile damage, anyone would clearly see the logical flaw involved here (in case you don't here it is: reducing by 20% a ships primary weapon is not the same as reducing by 20% a different ships tertiary weapon). Quote: Throwing this "50%" number around is just a number game on your part. I can do it too, look: The Domi looses the exact same percentage, 20%, of it's drone dmg when it uses a new drone vs an 'old' drone compared to another ship using a new drone. It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. This "small dmg loss over another pilot" you speak of, is 50% of 2 current standard drones of damage (with maxed skills). You lose 50% more damage, thus the "dmg loss over another pilot" is 50%, that's just how it is. I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out), as you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I'd certainly trade the +50% dronebay to keep my +50% drone efficacy over others, and if others would as well, then this implies that my opinion of the tradeoff probably 'holds more water' if you will. K
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:28:00 - [2103] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn No, what I'm saying is... If Joe Blow (with the same skills as me) uses web drones, he does less damage, but if I use Web drones, I do more less damage (if ya follow that). This isn't due to me specializing in using drones offencively, it's because I fly a Dominix. *is gonna smash something if he has to explain this again* So... let me get this straight.... You get specific bonuses for damage, and you would knowingly choose to give it up for Webbing. Thats fair enough, you are more than entitled to do so - its your ship, and your setup. No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:28:00 - [2104] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn No, what I'm saying is... If Joe Blow (with the same skills as me) uses web drones, he does less damage, but if I use Web drones, I do more less damage (if ya follow that). This isn't due to me specializing in using drones offencively, it's because I fly a Dominix. *is gonna smash something if he has to explain this again* So... let me get this straight.... You get specific bonuses for damage, and you would knowingly choose to give it up for Webbing. Thats fair enough, you are more than entitled to do so - its your ship, and your setup. No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again
jamesw	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:50:00 - [2105] Originally by: Kaell Meynn No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again You mean efficiency on the webbing drones?? The webbing drones the Dominix "currently" has? I'm sorry, but those are new drones. They do not exist at present, and the Dominix has no efficiency bonus on them. The Dominix currently has +50% damage on drones. Thats not efficiency. Thats damage. And its staying the same in the new system. The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia NEW Vid: Bobbing for Xelas
jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:50:00 - [2106] Originally by: Kaell Meynn No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again You mean efficiency on the webbing drones?? The webbing drones the Dominix "currently" has? I'm sorry, but those are new drones. They do not exist at present, and the Dominix has no efficiency bonus on them. The Dominix currently has +50% damage on drones. Thats not efficiency. Thats damage. And its staying the same in the new system. The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:03:00 - [2107] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 10:04:58 Quote: Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. It's funny how you keep saying you "loose 50% dmg" by using a new drone (which would require you to have Gallante BS at lev 5), but when it suits your argument, you suddenly use the figure of having Gallante BS at lev 4. With lev 5 BS you would be wrong. With the above, very specific, situation, you would be right. So what? shrug Quote: I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I didnt change anything. You just misunderstood. And the real point was the comparison of total dmg of one ship vs another, via drones. I realize I wasn't entirely clear on that point, but oh well. Quote: But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. Assuming max skills. But again, the only point I made was that the total dmg lost by a domi pilot is small compared to other BS pilots. As in the domi pilot looses 13.25 - 29 DPS more (depending on skills and choice of drones). Not a whole lot compared to the DMG BSs are capable of pumping out. Quote: It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... 1) No, you didnt cite the exact number. But I did, above. Read it and read my quote again, and then maybe you'll get it. (And, keep in mind, the number I gave assumes Gallente BS at lev 5- in most cases, the number would be smaller than that). 2) This is a small number. And it didnt "change" from what I was "originally talking about". You simply misunderstood. See above. Quote: I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out) Heh, I was just going to say the same thing about you. Quote: ...you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I suppose so. But your arguments are quite skewed, which is what Ive been arguing about.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:03:00 - [2108] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 10:04:58 Quote: Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. It's funny how you keep saying you "loose 50% dmg" by using a new drone (which would require you to have Gallante BS at lev 5), but when it suits your argument, you suddenly use the figure of having Gallante BS at lev 4. With lev 5 BS you would be wrong. With the above, very specific, situation, you would be right. So what? shrug Quote: I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I didnt change anything. You just misunderstood. And the real point was the comparison of total dmg of one ship vs another, via drones. I realize I wasn't entirely clear on that point, but oh well. Quote: But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. Assuming max skills. But again, the only point I made was that the total dmg lost by a domi pilot is small compared to other BS pilots. As in the domi pilot looses 13.25 - 29 DPS more (depending on skills and choice of drones). Not a whole lot compared to the DMG BSs are capable of pumping out. Quote: It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... 1) No, you didnt cite the exact number. But I did, above. Read it and read my quote again, and then maybe you'll get it. (And, keep in mind, the number I gave assumes Gallente BS at lev 5- in most cases, the number would be smaller than that). 2) This is a small number. And it didnt "change" from what I was "originally talking about". You simply misunderstood. See above. Quote: I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out) Heh, I was just going to say the same thing about you. Quote: ...you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I suppose so. But your arguments are quite skewed, which is what Ive been arguing about.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:25:00 - [2109] Originally by: jamesw The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. Yes, but the Dominix has to give up more to use them than anyone else. They currently get 15 drones, they have to give up 3 to use a new drone, everyone else has to give up 1-2. smashes more stuff as he had to explain it again smashes stuff all over Here is an explanation by analogy.... Say they put a new module in game, it takes up a high slot, and 2 missile hardpoints, and warp scrambles someone from 100km. But if you happen to fly a Raven, it takes up 3 missile hardpoints instead of 2. Don't you think Raven pilots would (rightfully) complain?
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:25:00 - [2110] Originally by: jamesw The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. Yes, but the Dominix has to give up more to use them than anyone else. They currently get 15 drones, they have to give up 3 to use a new drone, everyone else has to give up 1-2. smashes more stuff as he had to explain it again smashes stuff all over Here is an explanation by analogy.... Say they put a new module in game, it takes up a high slot, and 2 missile hardpoints, and warp scrambles someone from 100km. But if you happen to fly a Raven, it takes up 3 missile hardpoints instead of 2. Don't you think Raven pilots would (rightfully) complain?

jamesw	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:09:00 - [2111] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Yes, but the Dominix has to give up more to use them than anyone else. They currently get 15 drones, they have to give up 3 to use a new drone, everyone else has to give up 1-2. smashes more stuff as he had to explain it again smashes stuff all over Here is an explanation by analogy.... Say they put a new module in game, it takes up a high slot, and 2 missile hardpoints, and warp scrambles someone from 100km. But if you happen to fly a Raven, it takes up 3 missile hardpoints instead of 2. Don't you think Raven pilots would (rightfully) complain? Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! Use them if they are worth it, otherwise don't. Its really not worth complaining about. As I said before, if it does not suit you, fit a webber and keep your oh-so-precious damage. Thats why they put in the option of choosing setups. So you can choose. -- jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia NEW Vid: Bobbing for Xelas
jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:09:00 - [2112] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Yes, but the Dominix has to give up more to use them than anyone else. They currently get 15 drones, they have to give up 3 to use a new drone, everyone else has to give up 1-2. smashes more stuff as he had to explain it again smashes stuff all over Here is an explanation by analogy.... Say they put a new module in game, it takes up a high slot, and 2 missile hardpoints, and warp scrambles someone from 100km. But if you happen to fly a Raven, it takes up 3 missile hardpoints instead of 2. Don't you think Raven pilots would (rightfully) complain? Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! Use them if they are worth it, otherwise don't. Its really not worth complaining about. As I said before, if it does not suit you, fit a webber and keep your oh-so-precious damage. Thats why they put in the option of choosing setups. So you can choose. -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Nafri	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:19:00 - [2113] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again You mean efficiency on the webbing drones?? The webbing drones the Dominix "currently" has? I'm sorry, but those are new drones. They do not exist at present, and the Dominix has no efficiency bonus on them. The Dominix currently has +50% damage on drones. Thats not efficiency. Thats damage. And its staying the same in the new system. The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. I think thy cant see that one reason for no EW drones were the fact that Dominix would be able to use 15 of them. With the changes CCP is finally able to introduce the much wanted new drones, but thy are complaining again -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subscription canceled
Nafri Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:19:00 - [2114] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again You mean efficiency on the webbing drones?? The webbing drones the Dominix "currently" has? I'm sorry, but those are new drones. They do not exist at present, and the Dominix has no efficiency bonus on them. The Dominix currently has +50% damage on drones. Thats not efficiency. Thats damage. And its staying the same in the new system. The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. I think thy cant see that one reason for no EW drones were the fact that Dominix would be able to use 15 of them. With the changes CCP is finally able to introduce the much wanted new drones, but thy are complaining again From Dusk till Dawn
Ricdic	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:45:00 - [2115] Edited by: Ricdic on 04/11/2005 11:45:42 Originally by: Rex Martell It is fair to point out though that the only reason every single player is now deploying as many drones as possible is as a direct result of the recent missile nerf. I must say, this never crossed my mind, but I completely agree. I personally have been using drones with almost every single mission I now encounter, with pvp also. I wonder however, if the reduction in missiles fired gives about the same lag bonus to counter the drone increases. (Does that make sense to any one??) Understood that this change is partially related to Dev's trying to reduce server load. Wouldnt this be better served, by changing missions and complexes? I imagine the level 4 missions and 1/10 to 10/10 complexes (especially deadspace) would generate a huge amount of server load. Just 50 minutes ago, I was completing an Angel Extravaganza. I think throughout that mission I killed around 90+ entities, each being given jobs by the server, and each responding to my moves based on instructions from the server. Surely this may show a better idea, to have missions more similar to Duo Of Death. Battleships and large damage dealers, all accompanied by a small handfull of scrambling/webbing frigs, instead of the traditional 1 bs, 22 cruiser, 9 frigs. Imagine 2,000 people doing Angel Extravaganza a day, with 90 entities at each deadspace instance. = 180,000 entities being loaded per day, off just one single mission. (God knows how many people do this per day, although I do it a few times a week). Sorry for semi-hijack, thought server load could be countered better in this kind of form. ------------------------------------------ Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:45:00 - [2116] Edited by: Ricdic on 04/11/2005 11:45:42 Originally by: Rex Martell It is fair to point out though that the only reason every single player is now deploying as many drones as possible is as a direct result of the recent missile nerf. I must say, this never crossed my mind, but I completely agree. I personally have been using drones with almost every single mission I now encounter, with pvp also. I wonder however, if the reduction in missiles fired gives about the same lag bonus to counter the drone increases. (Does that make sense to any one??) Understood that this change is partially related to Dev's trying to reduce server load. Wouldnt this be better served, by changing missions and complexes? I imagine the level 4 missions and 1/10 to 10/10 complexes (especially deadspace) would generate a huge amount of server load. Just 50 minutes ago, I was completing an Angel Extravaganza. I think throughout that mission I killed around 90+ entities, each being given jobs by the server, and each responding to my moves based on instructions from the server. Surely this may show a better idea, to have missions more similar to Duo Of Death. Battleships and large damage dealers, all accompanied by a small handfull of scrambling/webbing frigs, instead of the traditional 1 bs, 22 cruiser, 9 frigs. Imagine 2,000 people doing Angel Extravaganza a day, with 90 entities at each deadspace instance. = 180,000 entities being loaded per day, off just one single mission. (God knows how many people do this per day, although I do it a few times a week). Sorry for semi-hijack, thought server load could be countered better in this kind of form. Insured Research and Production Services
Soulita	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:04:00 - [2117] Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07 Originally by: jamesw Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ... It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here. So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all. I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carfuly before arguing please): 1) Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships. 2) Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones) This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships. Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:04:00 - [2118] Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09 Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07 Originally by: jamesw Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ... It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here. So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all. I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please): 1) Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships. 2) Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones) This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships. Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:15:00 - [2119] Give up Kaell. Tuxford already knows about this issue and thinks it's fine for the Domi to lose more damage in order to take advantage of the EW drones. Apparently "drone specialist" means "damage drone specialist" and all those months training Interfacing and Gallente Bship mean squat when it comes ot other types of drones. He is also unable to see that the extra space will have to be devoted to spares instead of waves upon waves of fancier EW drones. And by the way that's not just 50% damage loss .. you have to consider the primary armament as well. A Domi will sacrifice much more damage than an Arma or Mega will do for each EW drone. Personally I think I will start flying my Mega much more. With rails, obviously ... a Blasterthron against a Raven, Arma or a/c 'pest with webber drones is simply cannon fodder. Whether I use my Domi much or not will depend on how large and powerful those sentries are in the end. If Domi is the only one that can fit 5 of them ... well, camping powah.
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:15:00 - [2120] Give up Kaell. Tuxford already knows about this issue and thinks it's fine for the Domi to lose more damage in order to take advantage of the EW drones. Apparently "drone specialist" means "damage drone specialist" and all those months training Interfacing and Gallente Bship mean squat when it comes ot other types of drones. He is also unable to see that the extra space will have to be devoted to spares instead of waves upon waves of fancier EW drones. And by the way that's not just 50% damage loss .. you have to consider the primary armament as well. A Domi will sacrifice much more damage than an Arma or Mega will do for each EW drone. Personally I think I will start flying my Mega much more. With rails, obviously ... a Blasterthron against a Raven, Arma or a/c 'pest with webber drones is simply cannon fodder. Whether I use my Domi much or not will depend on how large and powerful those sentries are in the end. If Domi is the only one that can fit 5 of them ... well, camping powah.

Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:26:00 - [2121] The more I read the more it appears that drone carriers are being heavly nerfed. With most ships of the same class being able to do the job almost as well as dedicated Drone carriers with out have to trade off Power Grid and High Slots. Will the damage out put of a Dominix's drones be comprable with the damage out put of 7 pulse lasers on a Geddon both pilots with maxed skills. Both tier one ships both able to launch 5 Drones. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Rex Martell Caldari	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:26:00 - [2122] The more I read the more it appears that drone carriers are being heavly nerfed. With most ships of the same class being able to do the job almost as well as dedicated Drone carriers with out have to trade off Power Grid and High Slots. Will the damage out put of a Dominix's drones be comprable with the damage out put of 7 pulse lasers on a Geddon both pilots with maxed skills. Both tier one ships both able to launch 5 Drones. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Nafri	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:28:00 - [2123] Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09 Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07 Originally by: jamesw Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ... It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here. So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all. I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please): 1) Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships. 2) Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones) This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships. Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers. Most of other ships can carry 3 drones after the changes, so thy loose 1/3 instead of 1/8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subscription canceled
Nafri Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:28:00 - [2124] Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09 Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07 Originally by: jamesw Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ... It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here. So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all. I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please): 1) Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships. 2) Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones) This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships. Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers. Most of other ships can carry 3 drones after the changes, so thy loose 1/3 instead of 1/8 From Dusk till Dawn
Soulita	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:42:00 - [2125] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09 Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07 Originally by: jamesw Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ... It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here. So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all. I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please): 1) Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships. 2) Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones) This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships. Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers. Most of other ships can carry 3 drones after the changes, so thy loose 1/3 instead of 1/8 Yes, depending on which ships you look at the rate varies. Still it remains true that in terms of loss of damage if a drone dies, the drone carriers before the drone changes loose only a very small percentage of their damage. After the changes they loose a higher percentage of damage. This is also true for all other ships carrying drones, but the drone carriers have a sharper drop in damage loss compared to other ships.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:42:00 - [2126] Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:06:33 Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:52:09 Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09 Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07 Originally by: jamesw Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ... It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here. So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all. I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please): 1) Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships. 2) Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones) This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships. Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers. Most of other ships can carry 3 drones after the changes, so thy loose 1/3 instead of 1/8 Yes, depending on which ships you look at the rate varies. Edit- Nafri, read in your sig subscription cancelled?? Hope this aint so!!!
Magunus	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:58:00 - [2127] Originally by: j0sephine "I don't really see the problem here. You want to be good at drones, you train skills. Simple." I think the issue is, drone specialists want to be specialists, but there's nothing really that's going to set them apart from any guy with 3 drones out, skill-wise. All the difference is pretty much in their ship bonus... and that's something that any Gallente will have trained, too. Because anyone with 3 drones has to train the same skills they have, just to see any use out of them... there's no "specialization" here to speak of. Be careful what you wish for. During the missile balancing somebody said 'hey, we should have a rapid fire skill for missiles too!', and that wish was granted. By reducing the effectiveness of launcher op, then putting what was lost into a new skill. So, in this case, what if the devs reduced the damage bonus for DI to 10% per level and added another skill on top of that to make up the difference? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Magunus The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2005.11.04 12:58:00 - [2128] Originally by: j0sephine "I don't really see the problem here. You want to be good at drones, you train skills. Simple." I think the issue is, drone specialists want to be specialists, but there's nothing really that's going to set them apart from any guy with 3 drones out, skill-wise. All the difference is pretty much in their ship bonus... and that's something that any Gallente will have trained, too. Because anyone with 3 drones has to train the same skills they have, just to see any use out of them... there's no "specialization" here to speak of. Be careful what you wish for. During the missile balancing somebody said 'hey, we should have a rapid fire skill for missiles too!', and that wish was granted. By reducing the effectiveness of launcher op, then putting what was lost into a new skill. So, in this case, what if the devs reduced the damage bonus for DI to 10% per level and added another skill on top of that to make up the difference? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Magunus	Posted - 2005.11.04 13:00:00 - [2129] Originally by: MortiSeraphim only pity is the devs dont listen to players' complaints or feedback on changes even after its widespread unpopularity...its like they dont care they have paying customers. ...and someone commented before, yet another boost for the dev's lovechild: the interceptor. You can honestly say that after they changed the damage bonus from thermal to all types? You think they're not listening? Just because they're forced into making a somewhat unpopular change doesn't mean they're not listening. They also have to pay attention to all the people out there that don't realize they're directly affected by this change because they don't associate drones with lag. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Magunus The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2005.11.04 13:00:00 - [2130] Originally by: MortiSeraphim only pity is the devs dont listen to players' complaints or feedback on changes even after its widespread unpopularity...its like they dont care they have paying customers. ...and someone commented before, yet another boost for the dev's lovechild: the interceptor. You can honestly say that after they changed the damage bonus from thermal to all types? You think they're not listening? Just because they're forced into making a somewhat unpopular change doesn't mean they're not listening. They also have to pay attention to all the people out there that don't realize they're directly affected by this change because they don't associate drones with lag. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'



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