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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
jamesw
   |
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:12:00 -
[2131]
 Originally by: Soulita
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships.
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
Giving up damage for using another drone type is NOT losing out. Its a choice. You dont have to do it at all.
Secondly. These changes do not nerf carriers. The Dominix, at present is almost unuseable in a "drone damage" config as a solo ship, because of one module - the smartbomb. This change un nerfs that to the tune of doubling, or more, your drone survivability vs that module. Sure there are less drones to shoot down, but I would like to see a BS hit a drone at close range.
Thirdly. As already pointed out, you can not nerf something that does not exist. The new drone types are not being nerfed. They cant be until they exist.
--
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
NEW Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:12:00 -
[2132]
Originally by: Soulita
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships.
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
Giving up damage for using another drone type is NOT losing out. Its a choice. You dont have to do it at all.
Secondly. These changes do not nerf carriers. The Dominix, at present is almost unuseable in a "drone damage" config as a solo ship, because of one module - the smartbomb. This change un nerfs that to the tune of doubling, or more, your drone survivability vs that module. Sure there are less drones to shoot down, but I would like to see a BS hit a drone at close range.
Thirdly. As already pointed out, you can not nerf something that does not exist. The new drone types are not being nerfed. They cant be until they exist.
--
Latest Vid: Domination! |
Soulita
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:28:00 -
[2133]
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:32:31
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:30:42
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:28:55
Originally by: jamesw
Giving up damage for using another drone type is NOT losing out. Its a choice. You dont have to do it at all.
Its a choice that if taken hurts drone carrier users more then other BS users, since other BS users have turrets/launchers to deal their main damage (as I pointed out). By choosing to use non damage dealing drones drone carrier users loose their main BS bonus which with the new changes is drone damage bonus.
So not only is it a nerf to drone carriers that (at least solo) cant use the new drone types realy, but also its absurd that drone carriers should benefit from the new drones the least.
Originally by: jamesw
... The Dominix, at present is almost unuseable in a "drone damage" config as a solo ship, because of one module - the smartbomb. This change un nerfs that to the tune of doubling, or more, your drone survivability vs that module. Sure there are less drones to shoot down, but I would like to see a BS hit a drone at close range.
Agreed in PvP situations.
Originally by: jamesw
Thirdly. As already pointed out, you can not nerf something that does not exist. The new drone types are not being nerfed. They cant be until they exist.
Honestly I dont understand what you mean by this. Do you mean we cant call planned changes a nerf because they arent implemented yet? If thats your point I disagree - better discuss changes before they happen so they work well when implemented.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2005.11.04 13:28:00 -
[2134]
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:32:31
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:30:42
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 13:28:55
Originally by: jamesw
Giving up damage for using another drone type is NOT losing out. Its a choice. You dont have to do it at all.
Its a choice that if taken hurts drone carrier users more then other BS users, since other BS users have turrets/launchers to deal their main damage (as I pointed out). By choosing to use non damage dealing drones drone carrier users loose their main BS bonus which with the new changes is drone damage bonus.
So not only is it a nerf to drone carriers that (at least solo) cant use the new drone types realy, but also its absurd that drone carriers should benefit from the new drones the least.
Originally by: jamesw
... The Dominix, at present is almost unuseable in a "drone damage" config as a solo ship, because of one module - the smartbomb. This change un nerfs that to the tune of doubling, or more, your drone survivability vs that module. Sure there are less drones to shoot down, but I would like to see a BS hit a drone at close range.
Agreed in PvP situations.
Originally by: jamesw
Thirdly. As already pointed out, you can not nerf something that does not exist. The new drone types are not being nerfed. They cant be until they exist.
Honestly I dont understand what you mean by this. Do you mean we cant call planned changes a nerf because they arent implemented yet? If thats your point I disagree - better discuss changes before they happen so they work well when implemented.
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Steven Dynahir
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Posted - 2005.11.04 13:29:00 -
[2135]
After thinking about how this change affects drone carriers, I believe that one solution would be retaining the +1 drones of drone carriers, and only changing the drone interfacing to +20% damage/mining bonus.
This would essentially save the specific advantages of drone carriers, but would also drop the drone count by 40-50%, thus dropping the drone lag to half.
And that is my suggestion.
---
SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR |
Steven Dynahir
Gallente
Avaruuslaivanrakentajat Oyj
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Posted - 2005.11.04 13:29:00 -
[2136]
After thinking about how this change affects drone carriers, I believe that one solution would be retaining the +1 drones of drone carriers, and only changing the drone interfacing to +20% damage/mining bonus.
This would essentially save the specific advantages of drone carriers, but would also drop the drone count by 40-50%, thus dropping the drone lag to half.
And that is my suggestion.
---
Sell orders
Recruitment
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Leneerra
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Posted - 2005.11.04 13:43:00 -
[2137]
might not be to clear to everyone, but this is how I see it
Current system: Drone interfacing is a skill that increases the number of drones you can control, giving you more versatility
In the new system it will be a skill determining how efficient you will be with damage and mining drones
so lets compare it to:
engeneering and electronics that currently allow you to get extra grid and cpo, to be able to fir different settups
and they change the skills to suddenly reduce grid and cpu needs on plates, armor repairers and microwarps (just to name some odd module types, leaving out guns on purpose)
in addition they introduce a new high slot module that uses a lot of grid and performs some usefull function
would this be fair to the people that trained the skills?
with the new system people flying non-drone carriers and low skilled pilots (low or no drone interfacing) sacrifice less to use the new drones then people that actually have skills or use drone carriers. that is simply not right. It would be like introducing a new missile launcher that performs best on any ship with 3 or less launching hardpoints..
|
Leneerra
Minmatar
Trinity Nova
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:43:00 -
[2138]
might not be to clear to everyone, but this is how I see it
Current system: Drone interfacing is a skill that increases the number of drones you can control, giving you more versatility
In the new system it will be a skill determining how efficient you will be with damage and mining drones
so lets compare it to:
engeneering and electronics that currently allow you to get extra grid and cpo, to be able to fir different settups
and they change the skills to suddenly reduce grid and cpu needs on plates, armor repairers and microwarps (just to name some odd module types, leaving out guns on purpose)
in addition they introduce a new high slot module that uses a lot of grid and performs some usefull function
would this be fair to the people that trained the skills?
with the new system people flying non-drone carriers and low skilled pilots (low or no drone interfacing) sacrifice less to use the new drones then people that actually have skills or use drone carriers. that is simply not right. It would be like introducing a new missile launcher that performs best on any ship with 3 or less launching hardpoints..
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Battle Engine
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Posted - 2005.11.04 13:46:00 -
[2139]
Keep up the good work Devs.
Thank god I did not start the training for a Moros.
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Battle Engine
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:46:00 -
[2140]
Keep up the good work Devs.
Thank god I did not start the training for a Moros.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.04 13:53:00 -
[2141]
Originally by: Soulita
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07
Originally by: jamesw
Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ...
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
The Ishkur is getting an ENTIRELY UNWARENTED 60% bonus to drone damage. SIX-ZERO.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:53:00 -
[2142]
Originally by: Soulita
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07
Originally by: jamesw
Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ...
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
The Ishkur is getting an ENTIRELY UNWARENTED 60% bonus to drone damage. SIX-ZERO.
//Maya |
jamesw
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:54:00 -
[2143]
Originally by: Soulita
Its a choice that if taken hurts drone carrier users more then other BS users, since other BS users have turrets/launchers to deal their main damage (as I pointed out). By choosing to use non damage dealing drones drone carrier users loose their main BS bonus which with the new changes is drone damage bonus.
So not only is it a nerf to drone carriers that (at least solo) cant use the new drone types realy, but also its absurd that drone carriers should benefit from the new drones the least.
Choosing non damage dealing drones can be done when they are called for. A good pilot, when using them wisely will do far more damage with certain "non damage" drones than with all damage drones. They will do all of this using drone carriers too.
With 4 damage drones out and 1 non, you still outdamage the standard 5-droners, and you also have the option of keeping that 1 non damage drone in your bay and using a 5th damager. THAT is the bonus of flying a drone carrier. You do NOT need to change drones mid fight if you can read a fight well, so it does not disadvantage smart pilots. Drone carriers main game is flexibility and this is what they get.
Above all that, you also get such ship bonuses as "5% extra damage to large hybrid turrets per level". Dominix is a gunship too. By fitting something other than guns in your highs, are you "hurting" yourself? Is it so bad that your ship is flexible enough that you can choose whether to use all of your bonuses or not?
--
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
NEW Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
Soulita
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:54:00 -
[2144]
Originally by: Leneerra
might not be to clear to everyone, but this is how I see it
Current system: Drone interfacing is a skill that increases the number of drones you can control, giving you more versatility
In the new system it will be a skill determining how efficient you will be with damage and mining drones
so lets compare it to:
engeneering and electronics that currently allow you to get extra grid and cpo, to be able to fir different settups
and they change the skills to suddenly reduce grid and cpu needs on plates, armor repairers and microwarps (just to name some odd module types, leaving out guns on purpose)
in addition they introduce a new high slot module that uses a lot of grid and performs some usefull function
would this be fair to the people that trained the skills?
with the new system people flying non-drone carriers and low skilled pilots (low or no drone interfacing) sacrifice less to use the new drones then people that actually have skills or use drone carriers. that is simply not right. It would be like introducing a new missile launcher that performs best on any ship with 3 or less launching hardpoints..
Couldnt agree more.
|
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:54:00 -
[2145]
Originally by: Leneerra
might not be to clear to everyone, but this is how I see it
Current system: Drone interfacing is a skill that increases the number of drones you can control, giving you more versatility
In the new system it will be a skill determining how efficient you will be with damage and mining drones
so lets compare it to:
engeneering and electronics that currently allow you to get extra grid and cpo, to be able to fir different settups
and they change the skills to suddenly reduce grid and cpu needs on plates, armor repairers and microwarps (just to name some odd module types, leaving out guns on purpose)
in addition they introduce a new high slot module that uses a lot of grid and performs some usefull function
would this be fair to the people that trained the skills?
with the new system people flying non-drone carriers and low skilled pilots (low or no drone interfacing) sacrifice less to use the new drones then people that actually have skills or use drone carriers. that is simply not right. It would be like introducing a new missile launcher that performs best on any ship with 3 or less launching hardpoints..
Couldnt agree more.
|
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:54:00 -
[2146]
Originally by: Soulita
Its a choice that if taken hurts drone carrier users more then other BS users, since other BS users have turrets/launchers to deal their main damage (as I pointed out). By choosing to use non damage dealing drones drone carrier users loose their main BS bonus which with the new changes is drone damage bonus.
So not only is it a nerf to drone carriers that (at least solo) cant use the new drone types realy, but also its absurd that drone carriers should benefit from the new drones the least.
Choosing non damage dealing drones can be done when they are called for. A good pilot, when using them wisely will do far more damage with certain "non damage" drones than with all damage drones. They will do all of this using drone carriers too.
With 4 damage drones out and 1 non, you still outdamage the standard 5-droners, and you also have the option of keeping that 1 non damage drone in your bay and using a 5th damager. THAT is the bonus of flying a drone carrier. You do NOT need to change drones mid fight if you can read a fight well, so it does not disadvantage smart pilots. Drone carriers main game is flexibility and this is what they get.
Above all that, you also get such ship bonuses as "5% extra damage to large hybrid turrets per level". Dominix is a gunship too. By fitting something other than guns in your highs, are you "hurting" yourself? Is it so bad that your ship is flexible enough that you can choose whether to use all of your bonuses or not?
--
Latest Vid: Domination! |
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:03:00 -
[2147]
Originally by: Soulita
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers.
Sounds to me like someone is a greedy little *****.
Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
Thats not a nerf its a trade off for getting new drones. You honestly think CCP gonna let you use new drones AND keep your firepower? Fit a jammer if you "dont want to lose more firepower than everyone else". BTW its not a nerf as far as i can see you got those new drones you wanted.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
First of all its 1/3th not 1/5th that most non drone users lose - and that is just using BS. Lets not forget Drones last longer against a Smartbomb and you get more spare drones how is that a nerf?
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
This is fair, the biggest problem with fighting a drone user was that it took way too damn long to target those drones and now that has been fixed. You got your new drones, they are tougher, and you can carry more of them in your hold.
As far as i can see "losing out more that non-drone players" is you being a selfish person nothing more.
Now the proper thing for you to do in is shutup and say "Devs i know i have to share some of these drone changes with everyone else but at least it reduces lag which benefits everyone"
---------------------------------------------
Oveur > CUZ IM EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!! [TheKiller8 - Uh what? - Flash Video] |
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:03:00 -
[2148]
Originally by: Soulita
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers.
Sounds to me like someone is a greedy little *****.
Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
Thats not a nerf its a trade off for getting new drones. You honestly think CCP gonna let you use new drones AND keep your firepower? Fit a jammer if you "dont want to lose more firepower than everyone else". BTW its not a nerf as far as i can see you got those new drones you wanted.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
First of all its 1/3th not 1/5th that most non drone users lose - and that is just using BS. Lets not forget Drones last longer against a Smartbomb and you get more spare drones how is that a nerf?
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
This is fair, the biggest problem with fighting a drone user was that it took way too damn long to target those drones and now that has been fixed. You got your new drones, they are tougher, and you can carry more of them in your hold.
As far as i can see "losing out more that non-drone players" is you being a selfish person nothing more.
Now the proper thing for you to do in is shutup and say "Devs i know i have to share some of these drone changes with everyone else but at least it reduces lag which benefits everyone"
Caldari - BS idea |
Soulita
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:04:00 -
[2149]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Soulita
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07
Originally by: jamesw
Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ...
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
The Ishkur is getting an ENTIRELY UNWARENTED 60% bonus to drone damage. SIX-ZERO.
In my post you quoted I included 2 points you unfortunatly didnt include in your quote, and I hope you read them. These 2 points contain my main criticism of the new changes.
|
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:04:00 -
[2150]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Soulita
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:14:09
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 12:06:07
Originally by: jamesw
Domi pilots have to give up "more" to use them? Big Deal! ...
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
The Ishkur is getting an ENTIRELY UNWARENTED 60% bonus to drone damage. SIX-ZERO.
In my post you quoted I included 2 points you unfortunatly didnt include in your quote, and I hope you read them. These 2 points contain my main criticism of the new changes.
|
Soulita
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:20:00 -
[2151]
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 14:27:25
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Originally by: Soulita
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please):
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships.
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
This is fair, the biggest problem with fighting a drone user was that it took way too damn long to target those drones and now that has been fixed. You got your new drones, they are tougher, and you can carry more of them in your hold.
As far as i can see "losing out more that non-drone players" is you being a selfish person nothing more.
Now the proper thing for you to do in is shutup and say "Devs i know i have to share some of these drone changes with everyone else but at least it reduces lag which benefits everyone"
Lag reduction is good - get it?? I agree lag reduction is good. Once more: lag reduction is good good good. LoL sorry, had to let that out.
Now to my points again - If no drone carrier nerf were intended by ccp then none should happen. The changes should be implemented in a way that respects that. Also a very simple concept.
|
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:20:00 -
[2152]
Edited by: Soulita on 04/11/2005 14:27:25
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Originally by: Soulita
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please):
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships.
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
This is fair, the biggest problem with fighting a drone user was that it took way too damn long to target those drones and now that has been fixed. You got your new drones, they are tougher, and you can carry more of them in your hold.
As far as i can see "losing out more that non-drone players" is you being a selfish person nothing more.
Now the proper thing for you to do in is shutup and say "Devs i know i have to share some of these drone changes with everyone else but at least it reduces lag which benefits everyone"
Lag reduction is good - get it?? I agree lag reduction is good. Once more: lag reduction is good good good. LoL sorry, had to let that out.
Now to my points again - If no drone carrier nerf were intended by ccp then none should happen. The changes should be implemented in a way that respects that. Also a very simple concept.
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:25:00 -
[2153]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Originally by: Soulita
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please):
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships.
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
This is fair, the biggest problem with fighting a drone user was that it took way too damn long to target those drones and now that has been fixed. You got your new drones, they are tougher, and you can carry more of them in your hold.
As far as i can see "losing out more that non-drone players" is you being a selfish person nothing more.
Now the proper thing for you to do in is shutup and say "Devs i know i have to share some of these drone changes with everyone else but at least it reduces lag which benefits everyone"
Lag reduction is good - get it?? I agree lag reduction is good. Once more: lag reduction is good good good. LoL sorry, had to let that out.
Now to my points again - If no drone carrier nerf were intended by ccp then none should happen. Also a very simple concept.
there are some downsides and some pros you get, but CCP tries everything not to **** your precius drone carrior over
cant say the same about the other changes CCP implented *cough*
so cant you just be happy CCP loves you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscription canceled |
Nafri
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:25:00 -
[2154]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Originally by: Soulita
It is a big deal. Reading Tuxfords posts regarding the drone changes as well as Oveurs it seems very clear CCP originally had no intention to nerf drone carriers. You can read these posts here, here and here.
So the drone overhaul should be optimized in a way that no nerf happens to drone carriers at all.
I have posted both of the points below before (as have others), which show the current version of the drone changes would in fact mean a nerf to drone carriers - but here they come again. Nobody has proven these points faulty yet (read carefuly before arguing please):
1)
Drone changes mean improvements for drone capabilities for all ships currently not mainly designed as drone carriers since they get advantage of being able to use the new drone types as well as the drone carriers. Actually none drone carriers can take advantage of the new drone types much better since they dont have to rely on the drones for damage output - they have guns/launchers for that
This means drone carriers loose out compared to the other ships.
2)
Also by using 5 instead of 15 drones (in case of dominix) each drone that gets killed means you loose 1/5th instead of 1/15th of damage output. Whereas other non drone carrier ships loose 1/5th instead of 1/10th(or less) of the damage (of their drones)
This means drone carriers loose out even more compared to other ships.
Again - if the drone changes are not meant as a drone carrier nerf then both of these points have to be adressed in a way that is fair to the drone carriers.
This is fair, the biggest problem with fighting a drone user was that it took way too damn long to target those drones and now that has been fixed. You got your new drones, they are tougher, and you can carry more of them in your hold.
As far as i can see "losing out more that non-drone players" is you being a selfish person nothing more.
Now the proper thing for you to do in is shutup and say "Devs i know i have to share some of these drone changes with everyone else but at least it reduces lag which benefits everyone"
Lag reduction is good - get it?? I agree lag reduction is good. Once more: lag reduction is good good good. LoL sorry, had to let that out.
Now to my points again - If no drone carrier nerf were intended by ccp then none should happen. Also a very simple concept.
there are some downsides and some pros you get, but CCP tries everything not to **** your precius drone carrior over
cant say the same about the other changes CCP implented *cough*
so cant you just be happy CCP loves you?
From Dusk till Dawn
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Soulita
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:31:00 -
[2155]
Originally by: Nafri
...there are some downsides and some pros you get, but CCP tries everything not to **** your precius drone carrior over
cant say the same about the other changes CCP implented *cough*
so cant you just be happy CCP loves you?
Oh, I am sure CCP loves us all 
Thats why I am sure they apreciate a productive argument about the new changes so they can implement them in the best way possible.
And I am sure pointing out weaknesses in the new changes is something that helps CCP. Productive criticism is something helpfull and in no way meant badly.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:31:00 -
[2156]
Originally by: Nafri
...there are some downsides and some pros you get, but CCP tries everything not to **** your precius drone carrior over
cant say the same about the other changes CCP implented *cough*
so cant you just be happy CCP loves you?
Oh, I am sure CCP loves us all
Thats why I am sure they apreciate a productive argument about the new changes so they can implement them in the best way possible.
And I am sure pointing out weaknesses in the new changes is something that helps CCP. Productive criticism is something helpfull and in no way meant badly.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:35:00 -
[2157]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Nafri
...there are some downsides and some pros you get, but CCP tries everything not to **** your precius drone carrior over
cant say the same about the other changes CCP implented *cough*
so cant you just be happy CCP loves you?
Oh, I am sure CCP loves us all
Thats why I am sure they apreciate a productive argument about the new changes so they can implement them in the best way possible.
And I am sure pointing out weaknesses in the new changes is something that helps CCP. Productive criticism is something helpfull and in no way meant badly.
You ever faced the projectile nerf 1 year ago? Even after a 20% boost to projectiles in spring 2005 thy do less damage, now imagine this without the boost. You were basicly doing 50% of the damage others did for 1 year 
In terms of balancing CCP doesnt take care of peoples fealings... normally
Or when thy killed shield tanking (there was a time no ship ever was shield tanked, till thy forced armor tanking away from caldari)
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Subscription canceled |
Nafri
Caldari
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:35:00 -
[2158]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Nafri
...there are some downsides and some pros you get, but CCP tries everything not to **** your precius drone carrior over
cant say the same about the other changes CCP implented *cough*
so cant you just be happy CCP loves you?
Oh, I am sure CCP loves us all
Thats why I am sure they apreciate a productive argument about the new changes so they can implement them in the best way possible.
And I am sure pointing out weaknesses in the new changes is something that helps CCP. Productive criticism is something helpfull and in no way meant badly.
You ever faced the projectile nerf 1 year ago? Even after a 20% boost to projectiles in spring 2005 thy do less damage, now imagine this without the boost. You were basicly doing 50% of the damage others did for 1 year
In terms of balancing CCP doesnt take care of peoples fealings... normally
Or when thy killed shield tanking (there was a time no ship ever was shield tanked, till thy forced armor tanking away from caldari)
From Dusk till Dawn
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Zeddicus Zu'l
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:57:00 -
[2159]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: jamesw
Giving up damage for using another drone type is NOT losing out. Its a choice. You dont have to do it at all.
Its a choice that if taken hurts drone carrier users more then other BS users, since other BS users have turrets/launchers to deal their main damage (as I pointed out). By choosing to use non damage dealing drones drone carrier users loose their main BS bonus which with the new changes is drone damage bonus.
So not only is it a nerf to drone carriers that (at least solo) cant use the new drone types realy, but also its absurd that drone carriers should benefit from the new drones the least.
Yes but imagine if they added the new drones but kept the old system. If they did that I am sure that the new drones would be 1/3 as effective as they are now so a large webber would reduce speed by about 13% instead of 40% so to get the same effect you have to give up just as many drones. If they did not do that, the efects would be way to overpowered and who knows, they may still be overpowered.
So because you have to give up 1/5th of your damage to use one 40% webber drone with the changes, without the changes you would probably have to give up just as much damage.
Is that still more than someone else would give up? Lets see, a Raven that could have 6 heavies before would have to give up 3 drones to get to 40% webbing (assuming they would reduce the power of all ewar and logistics drones by 1/3) thereby losing 50% of his drone damage abilities. Under the new changes, that pilot loses 1 of three drones (so his damage could equivalent to 4 before) but unless he has trained drone interfacing to 5, he is losing a lot more damage. If he had just the skills needed to fly those 6 heavies, that means he has gone from 3 drones damage (old system with new drones at 1/3 power) to 2.4 drones of damage (new system as stated by the devs). Can he train to lose less damage, yes but how likely is it that a raven pilot as much more than drone interfacing 1 already. How likely is it that a true drone specialist has the abilities to use tech 2 heavy drones, has drone interfacing to atleast 4 and part way through 5?
Honestly I think the casual drone user is going to see a much higher reduction in ailities if they depend on drone damage in any way. granted many do not depend on that drone damage, but then that may even mean they dont have any drone skills at all and have to start from scratch. In the time it takes them to train drones to 5 and drone interfacing to 4 (assuming they want to do damage) you could prolly finish training drone interfacing to lvl 5 or atleast be halfway through it.
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Zeddicus Zu'l
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Posted - 2005.11.04 14:57:00 -
[2160]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: jamesw
Giving up damage for using another drone type is NOT losing out. Its a choice. You dont have to do it at all.
Its a choice that if taken hurts drone carrier users more then other BS users, since other BS users have turrets/launchers to deal their main damage (as I pointed out). By choosing to use non damage dealing drones drone carrier users loose their main BS bonus which with the new changes is drone damage bonus.
So not only is it a nerf to drone carriers that (at least solo) cant use the new drone types realy, but also its absurd that drone carriers should benefit from the new drones the least.
Yes but imagine if they added the new drones but kept the old system. If they did that I am sure that the new drones would be 1/3 as effective as they are now so a large webber would reduce speed by about 13% instead of 40% so to get the same effect you have to give up just as many drones. If they did not do that, the efects would be way to overpowered and who knows, they may still be overpowered.
So because you have to give up 1/5th of your damage to use one 40% webber drone with the changes, without the changes you would probably have to give up just as much damage.
Is that still more than someone else would give up? Lets see, a Raven that could have 6 heavies before would have to give up 3 drones to get to 40% webbing (assuming they would reduce the power of all ewar and logistics drones by 1/3) thereby losing 50% of his drone damage abilities. Under the new changes, that pilot loses 1 of three drones (so his damage could equivalent to 4 before) but unless he has trained drone interfacing to 5, he is losing a lot more damage. If he had just the skills needed to fly those 6 heavies, that means he has gone from 3 drones damage (old system with new drones at 1/3 power) to 2.4 drones of damage (new system as stated by the devs). Can he train to lose less damage, yes but how likely is it that a raven pilot as much more than drone interfacing 1 already. How likely is it that a true drone specialist has the abilities to use tech 2 heavy drones, has drone interfacing to atleast 4 and part way through 5?
Honestly I think the casual drone user is going to see a much higher reduction in ailities if they depend on drone damage in any way. granted many do not depend on that drone damage, but then that may even mean they dont have any drone skills at all and have to start from scratch. In the time it takes them to train drones to 5 and drone interfacing to 4 (assuming they want to do damage) you could prolly finish training drone interfacing to lvl 5 or atleast be halfway through it.
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