Why are Freighters becoming faster?

How painful is it going to be to fit a cyno to an inty? Because I found a new favorite cyno ship.

claw - Bubble immunity, 2 wcs, 4k mwd speed, 2.8 align, 30m sig, enough for one light with current cargohold at cyno 4.

They're getting faster for long warps, slower for short warps. We didn't want to have speeds too low with the new system, as it would have been easy for the slowest ships to become prohibitive.

All hail my favorite things about Rubicon so far.

They're getting faster for long warps, slower for short warps. We didn't want to have speeds too low with the new system, as it would have been easy for the slowest ships to become prohibitive.

These changes are incredible. Obviously this is CCP Masterplan's doing.

Presumably groups will still continue to warp at the speed of the slowest ship in the group?

Yes, that will still work the same way

ENGAGE!

As somebody whose alt spends a lot of time in freighters, thanks for this.

Moment forever ruined by Youtube adverts :'(

ENGAGE!

Will there be any changes to the warp speed rigs?

Plan is to keep them the same, as the bonuses they provide are pretty awesome under the new system.

One clarification, Tech 3 cruisers will continue to be on parity with T1 cruisers by default, which means they start at 3au/s and with the Gravitation Capacitor subsystem can get as fast as 5.25 (destroyer speed).

Plan is to keep them the same, as the bonuses they provide are pretty awesome under the new system.

We're strongly considering adding more ways to affect your warp speed at some point in the future, but nothing has been decided on that yet.

How painful is it going to be to fit a cyno to an inty? Because I found a new favorite cyno ship.

claw - Bubble immunity, 2 wcs, 4k mwd speed, 2.8 align, 30m sig, enough for one light with current cargohold at cyno 4.

1st

Later

nice now all we need is in warp battles!!!!

All hail my favorite things about Rubicon so far.

Naturally, as designed, this is another huge nerf to Incursion runners.
You guys keep finding creative ways to wreck Incursion income, don't you?

First you trash the Marauder, now you increase warp times on T2 BS's by 33% for a 50 AU move, and 46% for a T1 BS.

Assuming a 5 minute payout to payout time prior to this nerf, which is now going to be 5:22 , you have now hammered Incursion income by 7.3%.

Null sec won't be hit as hard because running null sec anoms takes longer, and the additional 22 seconds of warp time for a T1 BS will be a lower percentage of a longer site to site completion.

This has been something that has bugged me for a while about the warp code. 8 pages of math later, and we have something that I think is going to be much more fun all around.

"What goes here?"
"Propulsion module."
"Another one?"
"Yes."
"Why?"
"Why not?"
"True."

Naturally, as designed, this is another huge nerf to Incursion runners.
You guys keep finding creative ways to wreck Incursion income, don't you?

First you trash the Marauder, now you increase warp times on T2 BS's by 33% for a 50 AU move, and 46% for a T1 BS.

Assuming a 5 minute payout to payout time prior to this nerf, which is now going to be 5:22 , you have now hammered Incursion income by 7.3%.

Null sec won't be hit as hard because running null sec anoms takes longer, and the additional 22 seconds of warp time for a T1 BS will be a lower percentage of a longer site to site completion.

So are you saying, that I can actually intercept in my interceptor now?

I know, crazy isn't it? :)

Will agility affect warp acceleration? Will my low grade nomad implants have a higher demand?

To rephrase:

"So are you saying, that I can actually intercept in my interceptor now?* "

*unless you're a lowsec pirate

Is it correct for me to presume that, despite these changes, it is still considered an exploit to avoid concord by warping either on or off grid after ganking a miner in a destroyer even though it would be easier to do now?

All hail my favorite things about Rubicon so far.

Is this going to impact fleet warp mechanics, ie if a fleet warps at the same time, fleet warp and everyone is full speed aligned, will the whole fleet still come out of warp together or will the smaller ships land first ?

Before we start, here's the correct music to accompany this thread.

Hello everyone! We're ready now to start posting feedback threads about some Rubicon balance changes, in preparation for the first public version of Rubicon hitting SISI next week!

This thread is going to cover our changes to warp speeds and warp acceleration, which have been rightfully getting a lot of buzz since we unveiled them in the Rubicon announcement live stream.

Previously, in EVE Online:
For anyone that's not aware, at the moment each ship has an attribute called warpSpeedMultiplier that affects its max speed in warp. It is affected by a set of rigs and some Strategic Cruiser subsystems.
In practice this attribute is almost entirely useless because the amount of time you spend accelerating to and decelerating from your max warp speed is currently fixed. At most normal warp distances, ships spend very little (often no) time at max warp speed.
This sucks in a lot of ways. It makes those aforementioned rigs and subsystems useless, it prevents meaningful differentiation between sizes of ships, and it puts hard minimums on how fast we can make any ship warp.

We've wanted to redo this system for a long time, and a failed attempt was actually made back in the leadup to Retribution. For Rubicon, CCP Masterplan has finally freed us from the shackles of a crappy warp acceleration backend, and together we're going to be revamping the balance around warp speeds.

Details!
After the Winter expansion, the same attribute that sets max warp speed will also modify the acceleration and deceleration of the ship at warp, so that a ship that warps fast will actually warp fast.

The current design has the fulcrum set on T1 Cruisers. If you're flying a T1 Cruiser with no modifications to your warp speed you will not notice any difference warping after the patch. Every ship that warps faster than a cruiser will see their acceleration speed up (and therefore see significant reductions in overall time warping) and every ship larger than a cruiser will see their acceleration slow down (and therefore spend more time in warp). The small ships are being sped up by a larger degree than the big ships are being slowed down, so the average warp speed of an EVE ship is going to be getting faster.

It's important to note that this change does not affect align time. This only changes the amount of time a ship spends from when they enter warp (when they become unlockable) until they exit.

We're also creating more distinct levels of warp speed between ship groups (at the moment destroyers, cruiser, BCs and BS all warp the same speed). Most T2 ships will be slightly faster than their T1 versions (more if their role demands it) to reflect their more advanced construction.

The result of these changes will be that gangs of small ships will be able to travel across large areas of space much more quickly to find fights, people will have better decisions available to them when picking the ship to bring to a fight, and clever wings of interceptors or interdictors will be able to loop around ahead of hostile battleship fleets to cut them off.

One other note, ships fleet warping together will continue to warp at the slowest speed of any ship that is involved in the fleet warp. This includes acceleration and deceleration so if you fleet warp you'll continue to land at the same time.

We're strongly considering adding more ways to affect your warp speed at some point in the future, but nothing has been decided on that yet.

Numbers!
Here's a chart of how long it takes for different ships to make warps of different lengths now.

And here's the same chart showing the current design for Rubicon.

One clarification, Tech 3 cruisers will continue to be on parity with T1 cruisers by default, which means they start at 3au/s and with the Gravitation Capacitor subsystem can get as fast as 5.25 (destroyer speed).

You'll notice that we've actually compressed the far sides, so freighters will have a much higher max warp speed and some interceptors are actually losing some max warp speed. In practice though every interceptor will be going much much faster for every normal length warp and we wanted to keep the travel time for freighters in a reasonable range so we're quite confident that both those changes are the right call.

Small ships will be making warps much much faster than before, and larger ships will move with speeds more befitting their massive bulk and power.

The best way to get your heads around these changes is to try them out, so thankfully these changes will be on Singularity with the first public version scheduled for next week. We're always interested in your feedback, but we'll be especially interested in hearing what people think once they've had a chance to try the new warp system for themselves on Sisi.

We're really excited to be able to make these changes and we think they are going to be a very significant positive step for EVE. Let us know what you think in this thread, and look to Sisi next week for your first chance to try them out for yourselves!

Since we are on the warp thing. Has there been any thought about any game play during warp? Strange question I know, but when I'm in the same warp tunnel as someone I don't like...

Sooo... This means that Marauders will take foreven to align AND to warp.....

Cool and all, but seriously... Don't terribad nerf Marauder mass....please

Am I reading this correctly a Freighter will take 22seconds to warp 150Km?
My Interceptor does about 5.3Km/s, which means that it can do 150Km in 28.3seconds, I'm sure that there are some Interceptors that can do better, but this Freighter speed is only just faster than an Interceptors SubWarp Speed :P

Because of the accel and deceleration times. Just think of a loaded semi truck vs a formula 1 car. That example is basically pure accel and decel, yeah the inty/formula 1 car is gonna smoke it, it wont be so bad for a freighter travelling several AU.

This has been something that has bugged me for a while about the warp code. 8 pages of math later, and we have something that I think is going to be much more fun all around.

First, thanks for finally changing this mechanic ! You rock !

Now about the changes themselves, they are pretty good... EXCEPT !

1- Attack BC should warp faster than other BCs imo.

2- Where is the orca on your chart ? Capital ship ? (If yes, this is a very bad idea imo :D)

3- You killed my rigged 20Au/sec travel rapooooor :-( (because his base warp speed will now be 10 au /sec if I read the chart correctly)

Question:

In Rubicon, the "WarpSpeedMultiplier" will now affect warp speed acceleration. Why was this parameter chosen, instead of making SHIP MASS affect acceleration?

While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?

For the love of god, don't make the freighters even slower than they already are...

It's already a huge pain in the ass to do logistics and I don't see why you should hurt the people who do so much for all the other players even more...

I also don't see why a freighter should be the slowest ship to warp as there are other ships which are significantly bigger and have more mass (titans, supercaps, dreads and carriers)

Maybe you should introduce another skill bonus on freighters which makes their acceleration faster.


In total I think overall the changes make sense as the less mass you have the faster you should accelerate but I really hoped that freighters weren't going to be so much slower...

While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?

a thousand times this.

Vdr and i joinly run indy for our corp, and, besides our miners themselves flat out refusing to mine in nullsec anymore due to the sheer dangers, i'm not comfortable sending them out anymore in the first place.

CCP, i seriously question if you're paying attention to the changes made even in oddessy. i cannot stress this enough - no miner with a scrap of sense will be found in nullsec after these changes. period.

it takes sixteen seconds for a hulk to align. a ceptor gang can be on top of you, in a 40 AU system, in about 14. ASSUMING perfect reactions by the miners. keeping a scout in another system is possible - if the scout is able to stare at the screen for hours on end.

i love the idea of nullified ceptors. but you've stripped the last defense from any sort of exhumer in null, and frankly they have ltitle enough going for them as stands.

and for those pvpers who want to claim "just put a scout next door" - you're telling me that a pvper can get in a single ship, by himself, and go, by himself, about his business and actually have fun, but a miner needs to run six accounts to even be bothered undocking? (one boost, one hauler, at least one scout, three exhumers.) this is unacceptable, especially when we're talking about something that you need to do for many hours on end to be profitable, and that is extraordinarily boring.

i once read a quote from miss seagull - "Enablers are the people who make the logistics for these large-scale things actually work. ... And we kind of have a history of treating these people likeGǪ****. We put these people through a lot of painful, unnecessary work."

it's the goddamn truth, and i have yet to see any sort of design decision changing that fact.

ahh, but inb4 mods claiming "this isnt the right thread for this."

i'll put a more constructive post up when it's not 6AM and i've slept, but the tl:dr of it will be - put grav sites back in sigs, or dont be surprised when nullsec mining (i.e. your source for all highend minerals - zydrine, megacyte, morphite) comes to a screeching halt.

a thousand times this.

Vdr and i joinly run indy for our corp, and, besides our miners themselves flat out refusing to mine in nullsec anymore due to the sheer dangers, i'm not comfortable sending them out anymore in the first place.

snipped for brevity

it takes sixteen seconds for a hulk to align. a ceptor gang can be on top of you, in a 40 AU system, in about 14. ASSUMING perfect reactions by the miners. keeping a scout in another system is possible - if the scout is able to stare at the screen for hours on end.

hi Fozzie

while you are tweaking warp speeds can u please increase the warp speed of freighters/jump freighters.

0.75au/s is just too slow.. even a warp speed of 1.5au/s would make life a bit easier for freighter pilots. then we freighter pilots can offer next day delivery services :P

if supers can warp at higher speeds then there should be no reason why freighters / jump freighters cant

For the love of god, don't make the freighters even slower than they already are...

It's already a huge pain in the ass to do logistics and I don't see why you should hurt the people who do so much for all the other players even more...

I also don't see why a freighter should be the slowest ship to warp as there are other ships which are significantly bigger and have more mass (titans, supercaps, dreads and carriers)

What would be the problem here? Gate guns?

If that's the case this won't make things any worse and I think it opens up opportunities, for catching people on celestials and such.

according to the new table Freighters are going to warp 1.33 AU/s and Jump Freighters 1.5AU/s - so there is a 75-100% increase in warp speed ;)

The average time it takes me to warp from gate to your anomaly just got lowered from 30s to 11s.

Now, if we could only get a 5-10s delay to "load grid" when entering a system before seeing & showing up in local, I'll never complain about local being used as an intel system again!

sweet :)

sweet :)

the opposite of "good" is "meant well".

Because of the accel and deceleration times. Just think of a loaded semi truck vs a formula 1 car. That example is basically pure accel and decel, yeah the inty/formula 1 car is gonna smoke it, it wont be so bad for a freighter travelling several AU.

The main issue I have with the changes is the huge quality of life Nerf battleships arr receiving. When you add in 10% TiDi (read: any relevant nullsec warfare) the 20au warp time on a battleship jumps from an excruciating 6 minutes all the way up to 9 minutes.

On the sidenote - warp-entering effect? I really wana see a suddle, but cool effect when a ship enters warp and kind'a blinks off the grid :) Just like with the "I was there" trailer (obviously that probably was the Micro Jump Drives used there), but something similar in it's nature.

how do gang warps work with this change?

As ti stands now, if you gang warp, you warp at the slowest speed and so all come out of warp at the same time.

No. Agility only factors in to sub-warp mobilty. (They will help you hit the 75% alignment slightly quicker, but once the warp kicks in, you need something else like a rig)

...
The bigger the ship is the greater the align time will affect the difference. That's why I think it would be wise to adjust the re-balance curve more toward the already fast ship and let heaviers practically untouched! By including align time in the process, you can still keep a big enough delta between, let's say, inty and bs, while not letting already slowspacetruck become more boring!

Ultimately, why is there any "warp acceleration/deceleration", align times on their own must be enough to make the difference. Why not just having an mechanism which allows to instant top the warp speed as soon you enter in warp(pretty much like when you jump with a cap through the jump tunnel - strartrek like "blink" away).

I've the feeling that you want to accentuate a behavior (fast ship travel faster) that is already implemented (align time / warp speed) but miss-compensated by the weird "warp acceleration issue"!

The key is the total travel time:
Now: align time (well balanced) + warp accel. (issue) + warp time (ballanced) + deceleration (issue)
After: align time (ignored in the calculation) + warp accel. / warp time / decel. (some sort of jiggering)
Ideal: align time (the "acceleration phase" - 75-80% speed needed to enter warp) + warp speed (balanced)

No need to add a second acceleration phase in an already "too long" process in a capsuleer life, namely "the travel time"

No. Agility only factors in to sub-warp mobilty. (They will help you hit the 75% alignment slightly quicker, but once the warp kicks in, you need something else like a rig)

I noticed on this graph it says t2 battleships. Which Battleships have t2 resists again?

This has been something that has bugged me for a while about the warp code. 8 pages of math later, and we have something that I think is going to be much more fun all around.

The average time it takes me to warp from gate to your anomaly just got lowered from 30s to 11s.

Now, if we could only get a 5-10s delay to "load grid" when entering a system before seeing & showing up in local, I'll never complain about local being used as an intel system again!

While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?

Oh come on. Fit nanos, use a more agile miner or put a scout next door. You don't need to stare at a screen, all you need is to be able to hear a gateflash, and then have your miners warp to a few hundred km tactical so they don't waste time panic-warping 20 AU to POS/station every time a friendly jumps in but forgets to announce it in intel.

Anyway, if you're right and null mining and supply of high-ends do crash, what do you think will happen to the prices of those high-ends? You should be looking at this as an opportunity to outcompete inferior alliances' miners. Mine intelligently and reap the rewards, or just carry on acting like a generic nullbear.

Oh come on. Fit nanos, use a more agile miner or put a scout next door. You don't need to stare at a screen, all you need is to be able to hear a gateflash, and then have your miners warp to a few hundred km tactical so they don't waste time panic-warping 20 AU to POS/station every time a friendly jumps in but forgets to announce it in intel.

Anyway, if you're right and null mining and supply of high-ends do crash, what do you think will happen to the prices of those high-ends? You should be looking at this as an opportunity to outcompete inferior alliances' miners. Mine intelligently and reap the rewards, or just carry on acting like a generic nullbear.

I see miner safety is an issue again. Well...
When I was new and was trying to mine, we did something like this with EVE-Uni guys:
You take some fast frig, and go make loads of off-grid bookmarks around belts in your system, positioning them so that you can be nearly-aligned to any of them most of the time while slowly flying along asteroid fields mining. You'll probably need about 5-6 bookmarks to be able to circle around belts. If something enters your system, you should be able to almost insta-warp with the exception of unlucky cases when you will be caught with your pants down while re-aligning to another bookmark. Anything else is pretty normal, jettison ore in the process of mining then tractor all cans to one spot where it can be picked up by whatever indy you are using.
It can be more of a hassle for grav sites as you will need a new sets of bookmarks every time, but for belts you won't spend too much time.

I can't see the Orca in that chart, how will the warp speed change for that one?

I am not saying the warp speed changes are a bad idea, but if this is to be implemented without completely rendering null sec mining useless you have to do some adjustments to mining.

To rephrase:

"So are you saying, that I can actually intercept in my interceptor now?* "

*unless you're a lowsec pirate

I personally feel that freighters should align like pigs and warp faster than they do. These are ships that spend most of their in-space time in warp, so it only makes sense they would be engineered to be good at it.

I'm generally in favor of the smaller ships getting a bonus to their warp speed. However, I don't believe it's necessary to slow down the larger ships to do it.

As it stands now, it already takes forever and a day to travel anywhere in a BS, and I see this change making them even less frequently seen on the battlefield than they are already. In fact, the only place I expect them to be common will be in missions and incursions.

In short, if my real life time investment goes up due to travel time, which often has no enjoyable gameplay associated with it, it's going to discourage me from using heavier ships at all. I don't know if that's the intention, but that will be the net effect in my case.

That's quite a proxy nerf you did to blockade runners . They used to be able run gate to gate at the fastest speed in the game but now all frig size ships are twice as fast.
Is this deliberate that blockade runners can no longer run blockades?

Hi Fozzie,

Please don't make warping in a battleship any slower. Any long trip is already painful. I think this will just promote the use of capitals and titans as means to move individuals and fleets around. I will likely not fly my battleship anywhere after this, I will load it in my carrier and jump it.
I feel that this could have the effect of eliminating the opportunity of catching individual and fleet bs's as we won't want to fly them anywhere. (nullsec)

A couple related thoughts:

Reduce warp speed by 50%+ on all ships in addition to this change you have proposed because travel is too easy and quick overall and trivializes locality a great deal.

Or use tactics to prevent such a demise, and create an offgrid BM to warp to, then bounce to the very close by mining op.

So unless the warp is longer than 50+ AU freighters will warp even slower, more than doubeling the time in some cases? Which percentage of Eve's systems has warps over 50+ AU? In my experience there aren't a whole lot of those systems. So in general it seems you are pestering freighters with this. Dont you think freighterering is horrible enough already? What have you been smoking?

Of course, you might also see Freighters allowed fittings when they get to the Cap ships in Tiericide, and can then choose to fit warp speed & agility rigs to your freighter making it much faster.

Yeah that would be nice indeed, but lets do that first before making the bricks fly even slower

Yeah that would be nice indeed, but lets do that first before making the bricks fly even slower

So unless the warp is longer than 50+ AU freighters will warp even slower, more than doubeling the time in some cases? Which percentage of Eve's systems has warps over 50+ AU? In my experience there aren't a whole lot of those systems. So in general it seems you are pestering freighters with this. Dont you think freighterering is horrible enough already? What have you been smoking?

Oh, and fix the recon cap usage on warps while you're at it.

4 warps for a single system in a recon is a joke.

~1 minute to warp 20 AU for BS, up from ~30 seconds ? Stop ruining this game, thats ridiculous BS.
BS must have 3 AU warp speed as now and there is no point to cut it.

LOL - CCP will be killing web slingshoting to warp speed EXPLOIT first.

22+ second warp at 150km plus align time so you're still looking at well over a minute, plenty of time for a ceptor to fly through the scouted system next door and land in your grav.

A ceptor could fly through several gravs in the minute+ time he have. The risk will have increased many times of that it was before this patch, only T3s could blitz through the scouted and bubbled system next door before, but they warp a lot slower then the proposed new ceptor will and also they cost much more.

At the end of the day it is a risk reward thing. I don't see the reward increasing that much, since this hardly affect the mackinaw bots that don't use haulers, they simply warp to a mining site, align out, mine until they fill their 35k m3 cargo hold, warp to station to unload and rinse and repeat.

Also Orcas / Rorquals now have a dimminshed role as haulers, since they have to spend a lot more time in warp, they can't haul ore as fast as they could, the m3 moved per hour is alot less.

Can't really say this isn't a massive nerf to null sec miners that can be remedied by placing a BM 300km of the mining site.

Actually, making freighters slower should also make freight hauling more profitable. Fewer pilots are going to want to do their own long-distance hauling, and will be much more likely to just contract it out.

Which is what I do now. I can fly a freighter, yet I prefer to pay to contract it out, simply because I'm not into doing those long, slow runs. Even if freight rates triple after this warp speed change, I'll still consider it a bargain.

Just remember, the Marauders too are affected by this and are only marginally faster than T1 battleships. And their subwarp velocity got completely thrashed in the "rebalance" they suffered recently.

This is more or less a T3 stealth buff in terms of PvE, too.

With the same reasoning I could say ceptors need to move slower, since being a mercenary then pays more, because less people want to do it....flawed reasoning. It is about the fact that it is just crappy gameplay to have someone sit in a freighter hauling stuff at even slower speeds. Where is the fun in that?

I mean I surely dont want to be ganked in my freighter, but the fact it exists does give me that stressed out feeling when I need to jump into a known gankers system. In that sense that is gameplay, because it stresses me out before I jump in and gives me that "hooraaayyy I made it" feeling when I pass that system.

Being in warp longer doesnt do anything for that: it just adds more boredom, because in warp noone can attack you nor can you defend yourself. There is no gameplay in warp.

There are others who will take up the slack and make a profit doing so. Most freighter pilots don't fly them to get an adrenaline rush.

as a miner and indy player, will there be a way for me to atleast get a chance to escape players with higher warp speed, if i use certain modules or will i be screwed no matter what i try?

Alignment is your friend. And have safespots off grid, since with the new system enemies can pretty much catch up to you before you got a chance to rewarp.

But to be honest, I do think grabbing a indy or miner char in low/nullsec becomes very easy. Seems to fall in line with the dumbing down that CCP is applying to the game lately (plexes for example). Apperently they feel killing a indy/miner in low/nullsec is too hard. No more player skills needed, the game will help you with very short warptimes.