Not sure why you get 15 minutes for ratting. Seems a bit over the top.

Do I understand it correctly that if two players are in a Limited Engagement, and a third player reps one of the two, the third player becomes attackable by everyone and not just the people in the LE?

There is no character-to-character flagging any more..

Thats how I understand it. But one of the two players will be attackable by everyone aswell since he was already flagged for something in the first place. The LE just allows him to defend himself without committing more crimes.

But why should you become attackable by everyone (not just the other party in the engagement) by helping, for example, a newbie that is being attacked/ganked by pirates?

Sounds like a great solution, but i got a question.

If I in lowsec attacks a player, who is an illegal target for me, and I destroy his ship I will get Suspect flag and the Sentry guns will shoot me during the combat. But if I warps out and warps back again (while still under the S flag) will they resume attacking me?

Really like the proposed changes, although I'd like to see some more details on the LE/assistance stuff. If you help the criminal, you get a suspect or criminal flag, okay. But why should you become attackable by everyone (not just the other party in the engagement) by helping, for example, a newbie that is being attacked/ganked by pirates?

No. They'll always shoot Criminals on-sight for as long as the Criminal has the flag, but for other acts they will only shoot you for as long as you stay in their vicinity after whatever action gave you a Suspect flag.

But according to the first sheet I only get suspect flag for shooting a ship in lowsec. I only get criminal flag if I shoot his pod too. So if I only attacks his ship, can i warp out and warp back again without the sentries will resume shooting me?

Will the charts of flags/consequences be updated and published when the final version of CW2 goes live?

Generally, this looks great.

Just a possibility: What if webbing another player didn't count as weapon activation? The reason being that (just) webbing a slow-aligning ship is as much a favor as anything else. Webbing NPCs would still count as weapon activation as long as they're too stupid to take the hint and warp off.

If you warp out and back in with only a Suspect flag, the sentries will leave you alone.

So this expansion is called "Retribution"?

Ha, retribution against ratters

"NPC Flag: This flag is activated when a player uses offensive modules against an NPC (or vice-versa). Having this flag will prevent a ship from being removed from space if the pilot logs off. This flag functions in all areas of space."

It is possible to be prevented from switching ships or ejecting (whilst in space) by your actions

If you warp out and back in with only a Suspect flag, the sentries will leave you alone.

So this expansion is called "Retribution"?

So does this mean that we can no longer strategically eject to prevent skill loss from our Tech 3 cruisers blowing up?

Very nice indeed, but I was wondering about the suspect flag and it legally allowing other players to attack the target, if so can we take the suspects container? "If I can legally attack the owner of a container, then I can legally take from the container." does this mean that a miner who got his can flipped will be able to take the ore back without any repercussion as well as any other player being able to take the ore? Also, how will you know that you can take from a can?

A is can mining,
B took ore from can to new can, flying for example a shuttle,
C is in a hauler assisting B, and can legally take from his container without being flagged.

While pointless, it will allow people to take from cans without losing anything, even if B got a suspect flag (I suspect this could be done already if BC is in same corp), but it could also remove any real use of can flipping in the game.

Yes, I'll try to make sure a finalised version is available for release. I have a crazy dream where one day EVE has (some) up-to-date user documentation.

I'm going to miss debugging the implicit cyclic graph of engagements so much ;(

1 - Ejection should be allowed even with any timer, Im thinking t3 ships, Im thinking saving my pod while everybody is looking at my ship - I used this tecnique before and should be legal, I can't remember any reason not to allow it. Why this was changed?

YES! Blog from crimewatch!
+5 points to Five-0
-5 points to Super Friends (note: This is what you get for being tard)



One thing that immediately caught my eye in this was that it looks like you will no longer be able to eject from a T3 just before death in-order to avoid skill loss. This seem's oddly intentional; will this fact be taken into consideration when tericide passes over Teir 3 cruisers? Is this the proverbial lambs blood on the door posts to ward off the angel of nerfs when she passes over the land of EVE?


Im trying to look for more loop holes but this largely seems solid.

So does this mean that we can no longer strategically eject to prevent skill loss from our Tech 3 cruisers blowing up?

No. They'll always shoot Criminals on-sight for as long as the Criminal has the flag, but for other acts they will only shoot you for as long as you stay in their vicinity after whatever action gave you a Suspect flag.

"Using assistance modules will pass on all flags to the assistor, possibly preventing them from docking/jumping for the same interval as their assistee"

Does jumping = gate jumping? Or jump = cyno jumping?

Will these flags finally apply to prevent people from pvping and then instantly vanishing through a wormhole? (Currently there is no timer on going through a WH while aggressing)

now that I read it, my comments...

1 - Ejection should be allowed even with any timer, Im thinking t3 ships, Im thinking saving my pod while everybody is looking at my ship - I used this tecnique before and should be legal, I can't remember any reason not to allow it. Why this was changed?

2 - NPC timer, I'm fine with it. I'm not fine with the time it uses. It should have a diferent time than player aggro. NPC aggro is less important than player aggro and the flag timer should reflect this fact. Do you agree?

3 - "Target offensive Module Againts Illegal Player Target (ship) -> Low-sec -> sec status penalty = yes"... do you want more people living in low sec and shooting each other more? Then change this value from "yes" to "no". This small change will shake up things positively for everybody.

wait....
so I can shoot everyone else in lowsec without sentry gun interference as long as I don't pod them ?

Are you seriously giving ratters 15 min "keep their ships in space" aggression timers? Do you not see anything wrong with this? This is a very simple question

If we didn't want to penalise T3 death, we simply wouldn't have the skillpoint-loss mechanic in the first place

Let me get this right, repping a -10 char that has no Criminal flag will not result in gateguns shooting at you?

Also: Hurray to the end of Gatecamps with Hotswapping Orca.

All we're missing now is a 'paused' local where you don't show up until you de-cloak and this will be a beautiful EVE Online.

This is not just oddly intentional, it is very intentional. If we didn't want to penalise T3 death, we simply wouldn't have the skillpoint-loss mechanic in the first place

This is not just oddly intentional, it is very intentional. If we didn't want to penalise T3 death, we simply wouldn't have the skillpoint-loss mechanic in the first place

I need a clarification on this example too.

From reading the charts, I see that shooting at a player ship only generates the suspect flag. The suspect flag consequences do not include sentry gun fire.

So will the sentry guns even fire at all if I shoot an illegal target player ship at a gatecamp in lowsec? I got the warp out and back thing... but why do I even need to warp out? All I have is Suspect, Weapons and PvP flags.

I need a clarification on this example too.

From reading the charts, I see that shooting at a player ship only generates the suspect flag. The suspect flag consequences do not include sentry gun fire.

So will the sentry guns even fire at all if I shoot an illegal target player ship at a gatecamp in lowsec? I got the warp out and back thing... but why do I even need to warp out? All I have is Suspect, Weapons and PvP flags.

I need a clarification on this example too.

From reading the charts, I see that shooting at a player ship only generates the suspect flag. The suspect flag consequences do not include sentry gun fire.

So will the sentry guns even fire at all if I shoot an illegal target player ship at a gatecamp in lowsec? I got the warp out and back thing... but why do I even need to warp out? All I have is Suspect, Weapons and PvP flags.

No kidding. I wish that ganglinks would be treated the same way... it would make a good difference in high sec. That and I would love to see all the flashy T3's start popping up in local.

That's the "Sec hit = Yes" and "Incurring Sec-status penalty" entries interact. If a sentry sees you do something bad, it will shoot you until you go away. After that, it will only shoot you again if you do something else bad, or are a Criminal

There really needs to be a way for 2 players to engage in a LE without the whole of eve getting involved.

As an example, at Eve Radio we do many tournaments (and I'm sure other entities hold competitions as well) using can flip mechanics to allow players to engage each other in highsec. With these new can flip mechanics, players will now be able to be attacked by anyone nearby.

I would like to see some sort of a challenge system where 2 players can agree to be flagged for an LE against each other without inviting the rest of Eve in on the fight.

Aside from that, I think the changes are brilliant.

My fellow RVBer had a great suggestion

Fit a cloak?

There really needs to be a way for 2 players to engage in a LE without the whole of eve getting involved.

As an example, at Eve Radio we do many tournaments (and I'm sure other entities hold competitions as well) using can flip mechanics to allow players to engage each other in highsec. With these new can flip mechanics, players will now be able to be attacked by anyone nearby.

I would like to see some sort of a challenge system where 2 players can agree to be flagged for an LE against each other without inviting the rest of Eve in on the fight.

Aside from that, I think the changes are brilliant.

So you can steal from corp wallet and hangers with impunity, but take 1 trit from a can and the whole universe is on your ass?

You mean like a.... duel?.... maybe you want some arenas also.... maybe a battleground?..
Please no....

Do flags persist when jumping between systems, or are they system-specific? I know I've had multiple cases under the old system where someone gets PVP-flagged on one side of a gate, gatecrashes, and logoffskies, and disappears from space 1 minute later rather than 15 minutes since they're in a different system.

Also, "The initiator of the action will get a PVP flag. If the recipient is a piloted ship, then the owner of this ship will also get a PVP flag." -- if a player is PVE flagged and logs off, and I scan them down under the new system, does putting a hit on their ship give them a fresh PVP timer, or do they disappear within 15 minutes of NPC aggression regardless of whether a player attacks them after they log off? (e.g. is their ship considered 'piloted' or not?)

This is not just oddly intentional, it is very intentional. If we didn't want to penalise T3 death, we simply wouldn't have the skillpoint-loss mechanic in the first place

Illegal attacks on ships (not capsules) in low-sec only incur a Suspect flag. No CONCORD response if the attacker subsequently jumps in to high-sec.

Assisting an outlaw in low-sec (outside of a combat situation) will not be penalized

That's a brilliant way to defend your logged out ship

There really needs to be a way for 2 players to engage in a LE without the whole of eve getting involved.

All we need is a way for 2 players to have a 1v1 in highsec without having to agress the entire universe. It wouldn't change the way EVE is, but it will just make life easier for ppl who just want to have a 1v1 with one of their friends for fun or training.

There really needs to be a way for 2 players to engage in a LE without the whole of eve getting involved.

As an example, at Eve Radio we do many tournaments (and I'm sure other entities hold competitions as well) using can flip mechanics to allow players to engage each other in highsec. With these new can flip mechanics, players will now be able to be attacked by anyone nearby.

I would like to see some sort of a challenge system where 2 players can agree to be flagged for an LE against each other without inviting the rest of Eve in on the fight. Tie it to the CSPA charge to prevent abuse if you must, but please don't kill 1v1s.

Aside from that, I think the changes are brilliant.

How will outlaws (i.e. characters with a sec status below -5.0) without criminal flags be treated in highsec - will they continue to be valid targets for all players and also attacked by the faction navies/police but not CONCORD?

Yes, flags will follow you wherever you go. Let's just say that trying to fix the issue you talked about under the old system had some exploit issues preventing us from doing it. With the new system, things are much better in this regard.

By this, I was distinguishing between ships that have been ejected from and left floating in space, and ones that have a pilot in them (regardless of that pilot being logged in or not)
A PVP flag can only be created whilst logged on, but it can be extended whilst logged off (much like the current invisible logoff timer works today)

Yep we do need something like that, a magic gauntlet you can slap people with, WE do need it, na WE MUST HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a brilliant way to defend your logged out ship

Fantastic.


This means that if someone logs off a carrier after getting PVE aggression, I have a 15 minute DPS race timer to scan and kill them before they disappear. This seems to not actually carry out the intent of having PVE be risky if you get scanned down, as there is nothing I can do to add a PVP flag to your ship after you've logged out, and if you can survive 5 min for me to switch to a helios, scan you, plus tank my fleet for ~10 minutes, you're scot-free. Mostly an issue for big ships, not as big a deal for small ships which can be blapped easily within 10 minutes.

I still think there's an exploit here that happened to my fleet a few months ago. An orca jumped through into my lowsec gatecamp, held cloak, and logged off. We pointed him as he was about to ewarp off, but he disappeared from space 1 min later because he had no PVP aggression on him at the time he logged off, even though we had point, web, scram, and gobs of DPS being applied to him. Petition ID 2976870 if you want to read the gory details.

That is worryingly similar to a glove-slapping conversation we had very recently in the office!

There's a mention of kill rights, particularly that you get KR from a Criminal act being done against you, so according to the charts that's pod attacked in lowsec, assistants of a Criminal, or ship or pod attacked in highsec (whether it's destroyed or not).

in before the circlejerk... maybe not

So you're killing off ninja salvaging and can flipping as a professions how is that not dumbing things down?

You mean like a.... duel?.... maybe you want some arenas also.... maybe a battleground?..
Please no....

in before the circlejerk... maybe not

So you're killing off ninja salvaging and can flipping as a professions how is that not dumbing things down?

This 15 minute NPC timer means death for any ratter who has an internet outage.

Oh - question:

I don't see a way to do it, but under these new rules, is there ANY way to extend/reset another player's timer while they're not present or docked? Or can you only affect your own?

Because unexpected timer-extension is bad.

That's unfortunate, given that when you guys announced Tech 3 on the Dev Blog, you said:



Now you've made it so that Tech 3 pilots can't abandon ship. It's not a huge deal, most Tech 3 ships go down fighting. But this was something that you originally included as an interesting gameplay choice that you are now removing.

Tippia always comes up with flippiant answers that have very little basis in reality.
This 15 minute NPC timer means death for any ratter who has an internet outage.

in before the circlejerk... maybe not

So you're killing off ninja salvaging and can flipping as a professions how is that not dumbing things down?

If you can find a way to do this, then I've missed something. You speak the truth about surprise-timers being bad

So you're killing off ninja salvaging and can flipping as a professions how is that not dumbing things down?

"From time-to-time" is not the same as "In the middle of combat that isn't going your way"
If you were suprise-ganked and weren't shooting, you can eject as you wish. But once you make an attack, you are committing yourself, for good or for bad.

Since salvage is not covered by the same rules as everything else, I do not see how this will change.

Apart from the assistance bit, you've correct.


Ship-ship aggression in low-sec will no longer generate a kill right. Super Friends have a blog coming along that goes in to this in more details about how this will work.

Kill rights

Performing an action against another player that gets you a Criminal flag will also award a kill-right to that person. This will happen regardless of whether or not the target ship was destroyed. This will feed in to the revamped bounty system that Team Super Friends will be talking about very shortly, so look for a dev blog coming from them soon.

"For bad" here being, "the loss of substantial skillpoints". True, ejecting from a ship as a means of escaping cause and effect and consequences to your actions is in the long-game, bad. But ejecting from a T3 to escape the SP loss still has (had?) its consequences, namely leaving behind a 500mil+ ship. I understand that there are obviously exploits to be looked at with this, but I feel like the choice should be there for a pilot to commit to either losing SP or ISK, especially in the case of piloting a T3 which tends to be heavy on both sides of that coin.

Just to clarify some scenarios that we encounter regularly:

1.) A nullsec mining fleet sees a hostile roam coming their direction, they crash the clients to prevent being seen. Right now, all the non-pvp aggressed ships would leave space after 60 seconds. With the changes the ones who had been shot by belt rats recently would remain in space for up to 15 mins where they'll easily be scanned down and killed?

2.) A supercarrier fleet is going around creating sov timers, reinforcing ihubs/stations unopposed, destroying offline towers, attacking POCOs. Their internet fails and their clients DC. Right now they would vanish in 60 seconds. With the changes they would persist in space for 15 mins where they can easily be scanned down and killed?

3.) A super capital fleet is involved in a pvp skirmish while out on operations but they're almost done. They cyno back to their staging system, warp off to their own towers, and log. Right now they'd vanish after 60 seconds. With the changes they'd persist for up to 15 mins with renewable pvp aggression?

Currently, Kill Rights are granted under the following conditions:

* As an aggressor, if you attack a ship (Go GCC) and aggression is not returned upon you by the ship you are attacking, the other party gains kill rights on you upon their destruction.

* As above, if the attacked ship does return aggression on you, they do not gain kill rights on you if they are destroyed.

Will this continue to be the case, or is just the mere act of attacking a ship will grant kill rights on you, regardless of the outcome?

Yes

I'm pretty sure we're going to make shooting structures owned by players give the attacker a PVP flag. So probably yes

They'd persist for 15 minutes after they were last involved in PVP, and that time can be extended after they log

Maybe, but people were exploiting this all day long by ejecting and immediately scooping up the ejected ship with another one...

Your king-of-the-hill radio contests were the specific example I used internally when I explained why we need to support this. I can't commit a solution at this time, but rest assured I really want to make sure a replacement mechanic happen (even if it has to wait until a .1 patch)

This means that if someone logs off a carrier after getting PVE aggression, I have a 15 minute DPS race timer to scan and kill them before they disappear. This seems to not actually carry out the intent of having PVE be risky if you get scanned down, as there is nothing I can do to add a PVP flag to your ship after you've logged out, and if you can survive 5 min for me to switch to a helios, scan you, plus tank my fleet for ~10 minutes, you're scot-free. Mostly an issue for big ships, not as big a deal for small ships which can be blapped easily within 10 minutes.

PVP Flag: This flag is activated when one player uses offensive modules against another. The initiator of the action will get a PVP flag. If the recipient is a piloted ship, then the owner of this ship will also get a PVP flag. Having this flag will prevent a ship from being removed from space if the pilot logs off. This flag functions in all areas of space.

They could pretty easily implement this just by giving a suspect flag and letting the players deal with it.

Masterplan, any comment on our bit about offgrid boosters getting agression?

Masterplan, any comment on our bit about offgrid boosters getting agression?

This part ought to clear that situation up. If you shoot at the logged out pilot you scanned down, they will get a PVP Flag:

A PVP flag can only be created whilst logged on, but it can be extended whilst logged off (much like the current invisible logoff timer works today)

Imo, without a option to create 1v1's or team vs team, this crimewatch fails..

Has then been any thought to changing the system so that Smuggling of illegal goods in a particular faction's space is viable?

Shhhhh!!



The first rule of off-grid boosting club is....

You know what would be kind of neat for smuggling? Every time customs officials scan you and notice illegal goods in your cargo you suspect timer is reset (so back to the full 15 minutes. Or just being in high sec with illegal goods has your suspect flag set to the maximum time until the illegal goods are gone, at which point the flag starts counting down) but there's no sec status hit or fee. If it all goes well you can smuggle along happily without any issue, but your open to free attack from anyone that wants free stuff.

so ill ask again.

when running a mission, you are scrammed. ccp have one of the network issue that have happened of late, so you D/C and cant reconnect. you ship just sits there and dies now?

Contradicted by the "a logged out player cannot have *new* flags applied to them, only extensions of old flags applied before they logged out" mentioned above, hence the request for clarification.

so ill ask again.

when running a mission, you are scrammed. ccp have one of the network issue that have happened of late, so you D/C and cant reconnect. you ship just sits there and dies now?

That's what happens when you D/C while scrammed now, if I'm not mistaken. So nothing changing there.

Agree'd - but with the current system you'd get hit by Suspect flag -every single time- you entered a high-sec system with illegal goods. A new player running a mission could potentially pick up some Strippers and go into Amarr space without even knowing what they were doing and get murdered by a bunch of Vet players.

nah, currently you vanish after 30 sec's

when running a mission, you are scrammed. ccp have one of the network issue that have happened of late, so you D/C and cant reconnect. you ship just sits there and dies now?

so ill ask again.

when running a mission, you are scrammed. ccp have one of the network issue that have happened of late, so you D/C and cant reconnect. you ship just sits there and dies now?

That's the "Sec hit = Yes" and "Incurring Sec-status penalty" entries interact. If a sentry sees you do something bad, it will shoot you until you go away. After that, it will only shoot you again if you do something else bad, or are a Criminal

No. you ewarp as usual.

You then sit at your ewarp point till the timer runs out and you disapear

If it does now, it will in the future, only for a longer time.

Then bravo for closing that one, but I'd still like to know if the guys working on tericide will take this into account.

so ill ask again.

when running a mission, you are scrammed. ccp have one of the network issue that have happened of late, so you D/C and cant reconnect. you ship just sits there and dies now?

if the npc's are shooting you, that time will never expire?

The NPC timer doesn't update after you've logged off. So it'll countdown for 15 minutes and then end.

if the npc's are shooting you, that time will never expire?

No flags can be created after log-off. The only flag that can be extended after log-off is the PVP flag.

nah, currently you vanish after 30 sec's, might be 60. but you do vanish

So if I understood this correctly suicide ganking will be nerfed quite hard because there is no way to scoop the loot without getting a suspect flag.

So if I understood this correctly suicide ganking will be nerfed quite hard because there is no way to scoop the loot without getting a suspect flag.

No flags can be created after log-off. The only flag that can be extended after log-off is the PVP flag.

So sentries, can they see the whole grid or just their lock range (150km?)? If you bounce an or offgrid bookmark and come back, will they have stopped shooting you until you trigger them via aggression again, even if it took less than 60s to warp off and back?

Please re-think this, or wait until the player successfully makes ewarp before stopping further application of flags. Otherwise any lowsec camp can be evaded trivially if a ship can tank for 30 seconds-1 minute simply by holding cloak and logging off before breaking cloak.

Yes

I'm pretty sure we're going to make shooting structures owned by players give the attacker a PVP flag. So probably yes

They'd persist for 15 minutes after they were last involved in PVP, and that time can be extended after they log

Also, am I right in reading that if I attack someone in space in low sec and don't pod them, there might not be any sentry guns involved at all, if it doesn't happen at a gate? I might have read wrong, and I'm way too lazy to check other people's posts to see if they answer my question.

This is correct. No more having to sit in a safespot for 15 minutes after shooting someone in a lowsec belt/FW plex.

Not in a freighter at any rate, nor anywhere busy.

Undecided whether this is "good" or not, since the gank victim can't do anything anyway (they're in a pod) and unless they have an escort (really, who actually does this?) then the neutral scooper is untouchable.

woa woa woa woa, that is NOT what master plan said here

This is correct. No more having to sit in a safespot for 15 minutes after shooting someone in a lowsec belt/FW plex.

After losing a ship and entering a capsule, players will still be restricted from docking/jumping for up to a minute (if they have an active Weapons flag).

Ok, you've redeemed yourself somewhat for those combat cruiser changes and not fixing lasers. Thanks.

Sounds like more pods are going to die.

but we are adding one additional rule: If I can legally attack the owner of a container, then I can legally take from the container.

IF i'm a -10 pirate.

I shoot someone = on a gate in lowsec what does this mean to me?

This blog is really poor at explaining how the mechanics work for pirates. You know the people it affects the most.

The sentry guns will shoot you just as they do now, except once you leave grid they'll forget about you and won't shoot you when you return.

"From time-to-time" is not the same as "In the middle of combat that isn't going your way"
If you were suprise-ganked and weren't shooting, you can eject as you wish. But once you make an attack, you are committing yourself, for good or for bad.

The sentry guns will shoot you just as they do now, except once you leave grid they'll forget about you and won't shoot you when you return.