Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 .. 74 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
6415
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:10:33 -
[1] - Quote
A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.
Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details.
We welcome all your feedback, thank you!
CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer - Volunteer Manager
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:17:30 -
[2] - Quote
Good stuff, thanks for the details
Now for wrangling over the >80mil SP getting 150k out of the packet's 500k....
Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
Quote:Specifically, we changed the 3rd bracket which used to give 200,000 to now give 300,000, and the final bracket which used to give 50,000 to 150,000. I love you.
Still waiting on at least one more critical parameter though, the AUR cost. It has been assumed all over the place... as you know from the other thread.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2294
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:19:37 -
[3] - Quote
Very happy to see CCP moving forward with this idea. It brings a much-needed depth of granularity to the process of trading ISK for SP that is unabashedly good for the game.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2294
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:21:52 -
[4] - Quote
Also, any ideas on what the Aurum price for the extractors will be? I won't hold anyone to a specific number; just curious if y'all had put any thought into it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:24:28 -
[5] - Quote
It's an interesting mechanic where older players may gain less SP (and indeed due to how skills work ie: Ving) and may get less out of each SP are better able to pay for it.
Of course this is different if you have older players making newer alts (which have low SP), but then this is similar to the case of feeding your newbies SP... well, you still have to hand them a t1 ewar frigate so they can tracking disrupt machariels in lowsec...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
467
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:25:08 -
[6] - Quote
OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
|
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists Intergalactic Conservation Movement
192
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:28:11 -
[7] - Quote
I approve
|
Julien Brellier
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
54
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:34:11 -
[8] - Quote
Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2294
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:35:11 -
[9] - Quote
Julien Brellier wrote:Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day. Considering the SP being passed around has to come from players training the skills at the normal rate, how is this any more "pay-to-win" than the character bazaar?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:36:06 -
[10] - Quote
Julien Brellier wrote:Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day. Kneejerk reactions in eveo
Ah this happens every day
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
|
Soltys
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:37:09 -
[11] - Quote
Hell yes.
Though I'd really suggest lessening diminishing returns further. 20% penalty for main SP bracket is kind of a lot - considering AUR costs (whatever they will be) and considering that decently skilled essential support/misc skills are starting with more or less 15m SP.
Consider:
- 0 - 5 : no penalty (500,000) (seriously though, this bracket doesn't even make sense ... 5m char sp is a cripple/cannon fodder)
- 5 - 50 : 10% penalty (450,000)
- 50 - +inf : 20% penalty (400,000)
And the question everyone has - what kind of AUR price for the extractor are you aiming at ?
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Emilia Zapata
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:39:08 -
[12] - Quote
A few questions: Both skill extraction and SP injection will work instantaneously, correct?
Will it be possible to extract skills which are prerequisites for other trained skills? If so, will the higher level skills still work the same as before? |
Conjaq
Osoroshii Akatsuki Quam'Nocent
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:41:36 -
[13] - Quote
Fantastic idea. Now I can bring friends in and give them a start up boost so we can get playing instantly with no initial wait Time I can't express how cool an idea this is.
On the other hand, as a long time(and extremely loyal customer) I feel I'm getting the short end of the stick, why does the SP penalty have to be so severe,just because I got more SP than new guys?
However I'll still use it, just to boost things I would otherwise not train because of other priorities.. I just don't understand the reasoning behind the diminishing returns. |
Buba Neagra
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:41:41 -
[14] - Quote
How much SP exactly will extract the "skill extractor" from a char above 80 mil SP?
If I use the "skill extractor" on a char above 80 mil SP and want to use the extracted SP on the same char to boost some other skills that means I will lose SP overall since I will be able to inject only 150k ? |
Ralph Drake
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:42:32 -
[15] - Quote
Please, CCP, let us be able to remove 0-skill-points skills from our sheet. I don't want the skill book back or anything, I am just obsessive. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
371
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:42:46 -
[16] - Quote
Nice, thanks CCP.
|
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
759
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:43:42 -
[17] - Quote
Can a player remove skill points from any skill?
For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?
Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back? |
Baron Holbach
The Northerners Northern Coalition.
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:46:08 -
[18] - Quote
sorry ccp this idea is ********, i have nothign against skill trading as suck
but you should not able to remove skills you already have - i would be fine if you can remove free sp and add some way to make it (like no skill in training, hello free sp, or some special skill you can train to extract it - not just any random skill) also please add top cap - over what its not possible to add sp using that... like over 200m sp, no sp can be added using skill trading, otherwise im sure that Dr Caymus is soon no more top sp player in eve or whoever owns that title using years or very detailed sp training planing
even **** you plan do with capitals seems like heaven vs idea you can nuke your sp so you can sell it, i honestly promise i quit that game if you add thing like removing any skill you want from any char you own - its just plain wrong |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
540
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:47:16 -
[19] - Quote
"After months of heated debate, we decided to change nothing except giving older players MORE sp for their trades...."
EVE ONLINE: HTFU
... or just buy a bunch of SP. Either way. Whatever works for you.
: / |
Minchurra
Pandemic Horde Inc.
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:47:35 -
[20] - Quote
I like it. Some Qs:
How does this work in the case where I don't want to sell my XP on the market but I do want to re-arrange how I have it distributed?
For example on a toonie with 65 million SP, can I just move 5 million SP from my mining skills and dump them into my leadership skills, or do I need to use the injector/extractor and lose a percentage of my skill points?
Is 500k the maximum you can transfer in one go? Surely 512k would be a better amount given skills advance in powers of 2.
Are there plans for bigger/smaller injectors at different price points?
Can the injectors be bought for -ú-ú-ú like the extractors or are they in-game purchases only? |
|
tasman devil
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:48:20 -
[21] - Quote
I do have some clarification request:
So you consume a "Skill extractor" which goes poof! at the end (along with 500k of your prescious SPs) and you are left with a "Skill Injector", right? Ie: you'll lose 500k regardless of your character SPs, but you'll only gain less and less if you inject it into a high SP character.
If this is true, then:
1: to min-max it: Basically means that I should have an ALT low SP (under 5m SP) character, who I deck out lets say with max Intelligence and Memory attributes, assign some Int/Mem skills to him and then periodically milk him for 500k SP that I can then sell on the market.
2: Any other route and you'll have a net negative on the SP pool. In effect CCP is burning (removing) SP from the game.
This will be the playground of those who have nothing else to train (i.e. players with enough SP that they can stop the training on their main and focus on "milking" an alt like I just detailed earlier).
I don't belive in reincarnation
I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
|
Hubs
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:48:52 -
[22] - Quote
This "Pay to Win" option worries me immensely and makes me somewhat sad... |
|
CCP Cognac
C C P C C P Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:50:28 -
[23] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Can a player remove skill points from any skill?
For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?
Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back?
Prereq skills can not be extracted. The will be represented with a lock icon like you can see on this picture.
as soon as the advanced skills have been extracted the former prereq skill will be open for extraction.
As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0.
This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).
|
|
Sir Constantin
42
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:50:34 -
[24] - Quote
IMO 300k and 150k is too much, should be half of that.. I don't know what the price will be, if it's too expensive new players wont have access and if it's too cheap 50-100mil chars will use them like crazy. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2295
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:52:17 -
[25] - Quote
Hubs wrote:This "Pay to Win" option worries me immensely and makes me somewhat sad... How is this "pay to win?" SP injectors aren't for sale on the AUR store; only the extractors are.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1885
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:52:29 -
[26] - Quote
brb, buying plex
same comment from last time stands: this is not a brilliant idea |
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
133
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:53:26 -
[27] - Quote
Still waiting on a personal version without such a steep penalty for being a long term player. |
YouAreMyBounty Sarn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that there was a positive attitude about TSP's. I posted many times in that dev blog & there was a majority of people against it, commonly quoting a line from a CCP guy that says something along the lines of, paying extra money into eve will never give a skill advantage.
I am heavily against it. There is pages and pages of rage on that thread about people not liking this pay-to-win money grabbing attitude proposed by Eve-Online. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:55:23 -
[29] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that there was a positive attitude about TSP's. I posted many times in that dev blog & there was a majority of people against it, In your mind, perhaps.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:56:12 -
[30] - Quote
tasman devil wrote:Basically means that I should have an ALT low SP (under 5m SP) character, who I deck out lets say with max Intelligence and Memory attributes, assign some Int/Mem skills to him and then periodically milk him for 500k SP that I can then sell on the market.
2: Any other route and you'll have a net negative on the SP pool. In effect CCP is burning (removing) SP from the game. But if you're using AUR for the extractor... why not get plex and train more. Oh snap.
Besides... it's not surprising there may be a most efficient way to produce something. To min-max my dominix production I would research the BPO fully as well, right?
Otherwise I'm having a net negative on the dominix pool?
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
|
Titus Tallang
EVE University Ivy League
108
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:58:42 -
[31] - Quote
I still think this is a terrible idea, just like last time it was proposed. Here's why:
- It has the outward appearance of microtransactions: Whether this system, with its unique CCP-branded Everything Comes From Another PlayerGäó approach, is actually a microtransaction system is arguable, but this is not the point. What matters is the first impression on a new player. "Wait 10 hours to train this skill - or take out your credit card and buy some PLEX!". I realize the prospect has dollar signs twirling in the eyes of your accountants right now, but it's guaranteed to drive plenty of new players away, especially during those crucial first days. I can guarantee you it would've driven me away when I started playing.
- It makes it so new players (feel they) have to purchase SP with cash to remain competitive: Bittervets get 150k SP per extractor, while brand new players get 500k SP per extractor, a 233% increase. Now contrast the buying power of bittervets with the buying power of new players. Do you really believe that these will end up in any price range that is remotely affordable for a new player that doesn't have Credit Card V trained? Yet a new player that doesn't pay for these will see his friends flying more powerful ships, with better modules, and higher effectiveness, thus affecting a strong psychological incentive to also pay for SP boosters to remain competitive.
Please stop doing your best Scrooge McDuck impression with a cash register jingling in the background and stop this madness before it's too late. We have enough issues retaining new players, something the game badly needs, as is, without you adding a system that makes it look as if you had the same monetization model as a f**ing Farmville clone.
Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/
|
tasman devil
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:58:50 -
[32] - Quote
Minchurra wrote:I like it. Some Qs:
How does this work in the case where I don't want to sell my XP on the market but I do want to re-arrange how I have it distributed?
For example on a toonie with 65 million SP, can I just move 5 million SP from my mining skills and dump them into my leadership skills, or do I need to use the injector/extractor and lose a percentage of my skill points?
Is 500k the maximum you can transfer in one go? Surely 512k would be a better amount given skills advance in powers of 2.
Are there plans for bigger/smaller injectors at different price points?
Can the injectors be bought for -ú-ú-ú like the extractors or are they in-game purchases only? Re-arrange?
If you are using these extractors and injectors, then:
Begin: 65m SP Middle: burn, 10 extractors, lose 5m SP Middle2: injects injectors, gain 3m SP. End: 63m SP
You'll burn around 2m SP to relocate those 5m SP to 3m SP somewhere else - >> not worth the hassle, might as well just train them in the first place!
I don't belive in reincarnation
I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
|
Emilia Zapata
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:59:03 -
[33] - Quote
Is there a limit to the amount of SP you can extract from one character? Or will it be possible to use a character as a constant SP farm, only limited by how quick it can accumulate them? |
Escobar Sr
Gang Bang You're Dead Happy Cartel
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:59:30 -
[34] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
Honestly now, wouldn't it be awesome to delete the skill and reimburse the ISK you spent on the Skill Book itself? Honestly now, why is it such a big issue for you anyway? Couple skills that show "Level 0".
The question should be like:
"Will you implement a filter that allows my client to stop showing Level ) skills?" |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1886
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:59:45 -
[35] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that there was a positive attitude about TSP's. I posted many times in that dev blog & there was a majority of people against it, commonly quoting a line from a CCP guy that said something along the lines of, paying extra money into eve should never give a skill advantage over someone with a regular subscription. The point was that you shouldn't be doing this. It's a terrible idea.
I am heavily against it. There is pages and pages of rage on that thread about people not liking this pay-to-win money grabbing attitude proposed by Eve-Online.
It was a done deal as soon as they did any serious work on a blog for it. I still dislike the idea and simply won't use it. If that puts me at a disadvantage for not buying my way to higher skills so be it.
|
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2219
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:01:59 -
[36] - Quote
Minchurra wrote:I like it. Some Qs:
How does this work in the case where I don't want to sell my XP on the market but I do want to re-arrange how I have it distributed?
For example on a toonie with 65 million SP, can I just move 5 million SP from my mining skills and dump them into my leadership skills, or do I need to use the injector/extractor and lose a percentage of my skill points?
Is 500k the maximum you can transfer in one go? Surely 512k would be a better amount given skills advance in powers of 2.
Are there plans for bigger/smaller injectors at different price points?
Can the injectors be bought for -ú-ú-ú like the extractors or are they in-game purchases only? First victim to the new system detected. Read the dev blog again. If you do this, you will lose SP because your total amount extract is 500,000 but due to your 64.5M SP sum, you will only be able to re-implement 150,000 SP. Have fun wasting your money.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Sorgia
Smurftastic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:03:28 -
[37] - Quote
hpy i did not sell my indyalts yet then
stil dont like this system though, rich ppl instandly max there skils, ppl who used exploits instandly maxedout. |
Minchurra
Pandemic Horde Inc.
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:04:41 -
[38] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Minchurra wrote:I like it. Some Qs:
How does this work in the case where I don't want to sell my XP on the market but I do want to re-arrange how I have it distributed?
For example on a toonie with 65 million SP, can I just move 5 million SP from my mining skills and dump them into my leadership skills, or do I need to use the injector/extractor and lose a percentage of my skill points?
Is 500k the maximum you can transfer in one go? Surely 512k would be a better amount given skills advance in powers of 2.
Are there plans for bigger/smaller injectors at different price points?
Can the injectors be bought for -ú-ú-ú like the extractors or are they in-game purchases only? First victim to the new system detected. Read the dev blog again. If you do this, you will lose SP because your total amount extract is 500,000 but due to your 64.5M SP sum, you will only be able to re-implement 150,000 SP. Have fun wasting your money.
You'd almost think I was asking because it sounded so useless that it couldn't possibly be what they were planning on doing. |
Esmyra Aeonire
Found And Lost
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:05:17 -
[39] - Quote
Are characters on trial accounts able to use this system? |
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate
1569
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:06:24 -
[40] - Quote
I still have great concerns about the implications of the meta for this idea -- Alliances and coallitions with trillions to spare will surely suck up hundreds of billions of skill points -- especially in the initial crash as people try to make short-term gains by selling unused SP.
This will hand them an (additional) massive advantage over groups in the game, and would actively incentivise new players to join these larger groups and receive SP hand-outs, to the detriment of smaller groups who simply have no realistic prospect of being able to drop half a trillion on a supply of SP injectors to help their own newbros.
This, more than anything, is what I consider harmful. It's a new feature that further institutionalises existing massive power blocks when the game should be moving towards smaller to mid-sized alliances and coallitions capable of creating engaging content in localised pockets.
Edit:
I would also like to know, a few months after launch, how many SPs are being extracted from the same skill repeatedly. I would expect farmers to be constantly stripping SP from something like Battleship V with a full remap and +5 implants. |
|
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:06:46 -
[41] - Quote
Even as a newbie, i see a problem. The problem is called insta-alts. Be it gank, market, mining, anything. CCP, any stance on how this impacts the game ? |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
987
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:07:09 -
[42] - Quote
Well, at least I'll be able to get rid of those science skills I trained just so I could do R&D agents. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:07:37 -
[43] - Quote
Sorgia wrote:ppl who used exploits instandly maxedout. Better report the exploiters, I hear you get a plex if it's true or something.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
DmitryEKT
AMMO INC Phoebe Freeport Republic
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:07:59 -
[44] - Quote
Just too re-iterate what others have mentioned. Make it 512k instead of 500k, as skills are all multiples of 256, not 250k. |
tasman devil
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:08:15 -
[45] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:tasman devil wrote:Basically means that I should have an ALT low SP (under 5m SP) character, who I deck out lets say with max Intelligence and Memory attributes, assign some Int/Mem skills to him and then periodically milk him for 500k SP that I can then sell on the market.
2: Any other route and you'll have a net negative on the SP pool. In effect CCP is burning (removing) SP from the game. But if you're using AUR for the extractor... why not get plex and train more. Oh snap. Besides... it's not surprising there may be a most efficient way to produce something. To min-max my dominix production I would research the BPO fully as well, right? Otherwise I'm having a net negative on the dominix pool?
To clarify this: main - fully researched all the ships you want to fly, I do not want to touch it alt - free reign
I have ~5,500 AUR from the heydays when CCP gave them out left and right, I don't care it the extractor will be in AUR, at least I can burn that AUR off the account.
Plus: you need at least one plex to have the account open and accessible, why pay with more when you have already reached all the ships you wanted?
I don't belive in reincarnation
I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:08:41 -
[46] - Quote
Minchurra wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Minchurra wrote:I like it. Some Qs:
How does this work in the case where I don't want to sell my XP on the market but I do want to re-arrange how I have it distributed?
For example on a toonie with 65 million SP, can I just move 5 million SP from my mining skills and dump them into my leadership skills, or do I need to use the injector/extractor and lose a percentage of my skill points?
Is 500k the maximum you can transfer in one go? Surely 512k would be a better amount given skills advance in powers of 2.
Are there plans for bigger/smaller injectors at different price points?
Can the injectors be bought for -ú-ú-ú like the extractors or are they in-game purchases only? First victim to the new system detected. Read the dev blog again. If you do this, you will lose SP because your total amount extract is 500,000 but due to your 64.5M SP sum, you will only be able to re-implement 150,000 SP. Have fun wasting your money. You'd almost think I was asking because it sounded so useless that it couldn't possibly be what they were planning on doing. Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
DmitryEKT
AMMO INC Phoebe Freeport Republic
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:08:45 -
[47] - Quote
Luna Bowman wrote:Even as a newbie, i see a problem. The problem is called insta-alts. Be it gank, market, mining, anything. CCP, any stance on how this impacts the game ? doesn't affect it in any way, because character bazaar already exists. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
8053
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:08:48 -
[48] - Quote
A bold and desperate move to wring more cash from the diminishing playerbase..
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6905
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:10:02 -
[49] - Quote
tasman devil wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:tasman devil wrote:Basically means that I should have an ALT low SP (under 5m SP) character, who I deck out lets say with max Intelligence and Memory attributes, assign some Int/Mem skills to him and then periodically milk him for 500k SP that I can then sell on the market.
2: Any other route and you'll have a net negative on the SP pool. In effect CCP is burning (removing) SP from the game. But if you're using AUR for the extractor... why not get plex and train more. Oh snap. Besides... it's not surprising there may be a most efficient way to produce something. To min-max my dominix production I would research the BPO fully as well, right? Otherwise I'm having a net negative on the dominix pool? To clarify this: main - fully researched all the ships you want to fly, I do not want to touch it alt - free reign I have ~5,500 AUR from the heydays when CCP gave them out left and right, I don't care it the extractor will be in AUR, at least I can burn that AUR off the account. Plus: you need at least one plex to have the account open and accessible, why pay with more when you have already reached all the ships you wanted? Specialised alts are useful, huh? Actually for quite a number of applications a specialized alt (eg: producing more conventional goods) is quite a boon.
It's good that you're thinking ahead rather than thinking the SP you trained yourself is free.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc. Sin City Coalition
401
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:10:14 -
[50] - Quote
I am actually in favor of this so newer money making players can skill up to enjoy, however I think there should be a cap whereas you can't inject any more Sp if you are say 75-100mil or above in SP, I am concerned that a rich player could in effect undo the graft that players such as dr craymus have put in to their skill sheets.
|
|
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
469
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:11:15 -
[51] - Quote
Escobar Sr wrote:Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. Honestly now, wouldn't it be awesome to delete the skill and reimburse the ISK you spent on the Skill Book itself? Honestly now, why is it such a big issue for you anyway? Couple skills that show "Level 0". The question should be like: "Will you implement a filter that allows my client to stop showing Level 0 skills?"
Like 39 skills that say level 0.
I don't want the damn skill books back or be reimbursed for them.
This process is just plain stupid if you cannot remove the skillbook.
This is just another money grab for CCP because of all the lost subs due to poor decisions on CCP's part.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
|
|
CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
488
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:12:47 -
[52] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
We're looking in to the possibility, since it seems to be a common request. No promises though.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
|
|
JonnyPew
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:13:39 -
[53] - Quote
WOOHOO! \o/
EVE Online is my hobby.
http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
|
Kiddoomer
Deep Space Exploitation Federal United Battalion of Armed Renegades
87
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:16:15 -
[54] - Quote
I can't really tell truly if its good or bad for the general health of the game, but there's one way I will use it that I have not seen discussed : to get back SP from a ALT I made and left to rust in a corner (not paid since one year at least), to be able to at least "get back" a part of the money I paid to play it for a moment, by extracting a maximum of its SP to the only character I use to play EVE. For this, these injectors and extractors are what I need. But to attract new players I don't think it's really the problem, they need to know which fun or engaging things they can do in the game, not to be able to do them "efficiently" by the mean of using T2 and skills to level up their stats.
A survey scanner tweak and new mining methods: interactive mining
|
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2220
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:18:29 -
[55] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:23:16 -
[56] - Quote
Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters.
Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
Ignoring the massive hypocrisy over the years that skillpoints don't matter, there were/are many ways to push the game in a direction where not everything would be governed by a skill. But naturally, such a "solution" would mean CCP couldn't "double dip", so that was apparently uninteresting. What was interesting was pay to keep up.
This has nothing to do with new players. This is only about money. The core of Eve is now irrelevant and there is no value in anything.
This is an unbelievably dumb change and an absolute demonstration that players' opinions are completely ignored. CSM as a concept can't even be considered a joke. Who the **** would believe you listen anything at all after this? |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
370
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:27:40 -
[57] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.
Current:
Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.
Future:
Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.
Future Tommy seems to have better options...
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:28:05 -
[58] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that there was a positive attitude about TSP's. I posted many times in that dev blog & there was a majority of people against it, commonly quoting a line from a CCP guy that said something along the lines of, paying extra money into eve should never give a skill advantage over someone with a regular subscription. The point was that you shouldn't be doing this. It's a terrible idea.
I am heavily against it. There is pages and pages of rage on that thread about people not liking this pay-to-win money grabbing attitude proposed by Eve-Online.
Apparently some devs live so deep in fantasy land and suffer from a confirmation bias stronger than what was thought possible. |
tasman devil
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
58
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:29:00 -
[59] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:Escobar Sr wrote:Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. Honestly now, wouldn't it be awesome to delete the skill and reimburse the ISK you spent on the Skill Book itself? Honestly now, why is it such a big issue for you anyway? Couple skills that show "Level 0". The question should be like: "Will you implement a filter that allows my client to stop showing Level 0 skills?" Like 39 skills that say level 0. I don't want the damn skill books back or be reimbursed for them. This process is just plain stupid if you cannot remove the skillbook. This is just another money grab for CCP because of all the lost subs due to poor decisions on CCP's part.
Oh, you will be able to remove the skill books NEXT year - for a small AUR fee for "Skillbook extractor" because of "popular demand" they will implement it, although the way things are developed here (with the speed of a glacier melting) I'd wager it will be next year until we see something like that implemented.
Tune in on jan 2017 for more info!
I don't belive in reincarnation
I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2299
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:29:05 -
[60] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:29:10 -
[61] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options... Some people don't like the idea of Tommy joining, if Tommy will become a bad person in eve online
EDIT: That said though, Tommy might have pretty quickly skilled up and then gotten on mach killmails with their t1 frigate using a tracking disruptor. or a logi legion with a sensor damp.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:30:48 -
[62] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options...
That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...' |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:32:20 -
[63] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Obil Que wrote: Current:
Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.
Future:
Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.
Future Tommy seems to have better options...
That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...' Is this what it comes down to, making our newbies dependent on our space state?
Oh so you're saving them huh. I see...
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:32:27 -
[64] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options...
While this part of the discussion is definitely over, the fact that they introduce more skills with new ships goes against what they supposedly want to accomplish. If there is too much to train, the first thing to do would be to not add more. They are creating the problem they want to solve. |
Sorgia
Smurftastic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:32:45 -
[65] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding. Ignoring the massive hypocrisy over the years that skillpoints don't matter, there were/are many ways to push the game in a direction where not everything would be governed by a skill. But naturally, such a "solution" would mean CCP couldn't "double dip", so that was apparently uninteresting. What was interesting was pay to keep up. This has nothing to do with new players. This is only about money. The core of Eve is now irrelevant and there is no value in anything. This is an unbelievably dumb change and an absolute demonstration that players' opinions are completely ignored. CSM as a concept can't even be considered a joke. Who the **** would believe you listen anything at all after this?
csm always been a joke, its yust pr wich they dont listen too
they also like to lie about whatever suits them , they wanted this so here it is |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:33:33 -
[66] - Quote
Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless.
I guess you were in the minority that thought this was a good idea. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13355
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:35:06 -
[67] - Quote
As for the idea itself I remain completely neutral. I'll have no need to use any of it and I have nothing I want to part with for isk.
What I will react to is this eternally na+»ve notion that it 'might bring in new players'. All it will do is help veterans who actually know WTF they are doing, and it will make it even harder for new players (especially ones not willing to pay a sub AND then more money for plex or whatever) to get a foot in the door.
You bring in new players with a challenging game where innovative people can innovate, not by allowing people to feel like they can play catch up for cash. |
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:35:09 -
[68] - Quote
gratz ccp on another fail idea. |
Sim Cognito
Operation Valkyr The Gurlstas Associates
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:35:16 -
[69] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options...
Precisely. |
Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
81
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:36:36 -
[70] - Quote
Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless.
Feels good though
I'm pretty kin about this new chapter in EVE. I don't really understand the whole "it will hurt/kill the newbro" perspective. For some reason that view point comes up every time, no matter how much or little it affects that particular segment. One thing I would like; however, is perhaps having the ability to see how many skill points a particular character has. It would be disheartening for an actual newbro to get into a duel with someone around the same toon age, but they have 20m+ for skillpoints. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:36:45 -
[71] - Quote
I guess the actual real problem is some players might be generous to the newer ones.
It's like how having friends leads to a blue donut leading to eve dying.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
287
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:36:57 -
[72] - Quote
I hope the AUR price is set more towards the low-end than the high end. I certainly won't be paying for 500k SP only to get 150k but if they price it witih the newbros getting a discount then I'd be all for it :) |
King Dave
Isogen 5
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:37:45 -
[73] - Quote
Ccp - I can appreciate the thought and generally agree. I have a friend that just started and I know he will be buying a ton to catch up on the basics and long trains but wants his own main not something bought in character bazaar. Thumbs up.
As a very high sp character I think you are missing the mark horribly on people like me. I don't want to add more skills to my toon but rearrange the stuff I have. The cost benefit and lost potential usage of extracted skills for whatever reason in the future means I would never be extracting from myself. I would however pay a higher aurum price for a self extractor/injector. It's not tradable (call it genetically coded). You even give it a slight diminished return, but the point is that it resculpts the points of self. Otherwise if I want to get rid of 5 mil in leadership stuff to basically get 1.5 mil in something else plus the cost of a ton of aurum just doesn't make any sense, especially given than game is ever changing and you could tie some leadership skill to a ship, (command Desi anyone?)
Basically you have given this ability to anyone under 30m sp (forgot break) but totally hosed people that have been playing longest and are even more attached to character, with also the most legitimate number of skill points that need shuffling from all the trends over the years. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13358
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:39:23 -
[74] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options...
Current: "Hey Tommy, you can't fly a HAC yet, but here is an alternative tech1 ship with tech1 items you can fly and still come along, and when you CAN fly that HAC, you will have a sense of accomplishment from the time you put in as well as how you had to learn which skills to train.
Future: "Who is Tommy? Oh yea, that guy we gave some skills to that got bored within a week because everything was handed to him, thus preventing him from developing any sense of accomplishment or ownership in the game. I heard he's playing World of Warships now".
Some people (including some at CCP) don't really understand the draw of this game, now do they?
|
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
759
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:39:42 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Cognac wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Can a player remove skill points from any skill?
For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?
Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back? Prereq skills can not be extracted. The will be represented with a lock icon like you can see on this picture. [img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68915/1/Skill_trading_training.png[/img] as soon as the advanced skills have been extracted the former prereq skill will be open for extraction. As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0. This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease). So, let's pretend I'm a sub 5 Million SP character. I've managed /somehow/ to get Caldari Carrier 1, now I have no SP in Caldari Carrier. I can remove the SP from my Caldari Battleship so that's 0 SP and apply the whole 500,000 SP to Caldari Carrier? Thus negating the prerequisite skills needed to fly a Carrier. Therefore having a low SP character focused for one thing.
In this case, I should have to remove the Caldari Carrier skill BEFORE I can remove the Caldari Battleship SP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:42:09 -
[76] - Quote
King Dave wrote:As a very high sp character I think you are missing the mark horribly on people like me. I don't want to add more skills to my toon but rearrange the stuff I have. The cost benefit and lost potential usage of extracted skills for whatever reason in the future means I would never be extracting from myself. I would however pay a higher aurum price for a self extractor/injector. It's not tradable (call it genetically coded). You even give it a slight diminished return, but the point is that it resculpts the points of self. Otherwise if I want to get rid of 5 mil in leadership stuff to basically get 1.5 mil in something else plus the cost of a ton of aurum just doesn't make any sense, especially given than game is ever changing and you could tie some leadership skill to a ship, (command Desi anyone?) Honestly a self-restricted "skill rearranger" (which you can buy and trade, but only when empty, and can only use on the character that extracts sp to it) would be nice.
You could make it so when you use the "skill rearranger" you fill up your 500k, but instead of giving you a filled extractor, it gives that character the (450k?) SP with no chance to sell anything.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:43:20 -
[77] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Obil Que wrote: ...
Future Tommy seems to have better options...
That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...' Is this what it comes down to, making our newbies dependent on our space state? Oh so you're saving them huh. I see...
I'm saving no-one, I left my cape and speedos in hisec.
This just strikes me as a means to extract money from new players (whilst inflating PLEX prices meaning more players will have to pay for game time more often). New players will not have the ISK to buy these injectors without paying more RL cash. The knock on effect will impact everyone. I would also be greatly surprised if the larger entities in game didn't use this to create swathes of perfect alts at sub-50 mil SP giving them an even bigger advantage over new starters.
This change won't impact me play wise as I already have the skills I need to do what I want in game. It may impact me in ISK terms but I'll live :) Had I been starting as a new player it still wouldn't impact me as I have patience, this scheme will be trading on the fact that many new players won't have or will feel the pressure to skill faster and therefore pay to do so. |
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
210
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:43:52 -
[78] - Quote
Really sorry to see this implemented. In my view it runs counter to everything Eve is about.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
|
The Slayer
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
319
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:44:48 -
[79] - Quote
So, some math.
500,000sp is around 12 days of training at 1700sp/hr (very conservative)
Currently a 30 day sub will cost you -ú10
Currently you can buy around 2200 aurum for this price (you cannot buy exactly -ú10 of aurum, but approximating from the 1800 for -ú8 bundle)
Ergo I would hope extractor pricing to be somewhere around 1k aurum. |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:45:50 -
[80] - Quote
What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? |
|
Inevitability
Insurrection Subversive Activity
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:46:48 -
[81] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. This.
|
|
CCP Cognac
C C P C C P Alliance
54
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:48:44 -
[82] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:CCP Cognac wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Can a player remove skill points from any skill?
For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?
Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back? Prereq skills can not be extracted. The will be represented with a lock icon like you can see on this picture. as soon as the advanced skills have been extracted the former prereq skill will be open for extraction. As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0. This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease). So, let's pretend I'm a sub 5 Million SP character. I've managed /somehow/ to get Caldari Carrier 1, now I have no SP in Caldari Carrier. I can remove the SP from my Caldari Battleship so that's 0 SP and apply the whole 500,000 SP to Caldari Carrier? Thus negating the prerequisite skills needed to fly a Carrier. Therefore having a low SP character focused for one thing. In this case, I should have to remove the Caldari Carrier skill BEFORE I can remove the Caldari Battleship SP.
You wont be able to apply skillpoints to skills you don't have the prereqs for.
|
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:48:46 -
[83] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless. Feels good though I'm pretty kin about this new chapter in EVE. I don't really understand the whole "it will hurt/kill the newbro" perspective. For some reason that view point comes up every time, no matter how much or little it affects that particular segment. One thing I would like; however, is perhaps having the ability to see how many skill points a particular character has. It would be disheartening for an actual newbro to get into a duel with someone around the same toon age, but they have 20m+ for skillpoints.
I doubt it comes up every time.
How can you not understand it when you point out one of the problems in the same post? |
Jektal
Embers of Virtue
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:49:14 -
[84] - Quote
My concerns:
- For a new player wanting to maximize their training speed, the correct thing to do is buy 10 of these and immediately train to 5 million SP. That would be prohibitively expensive for most people, but it gets you much farther ahead in the game.
- If I'm paying for multiple character training, I can now significantly boost my main's training by buying a Skill Extractor every month or so, taking 500k SP out of each secondary character, re-scheduling 500k of 1x/2x skills, and then cashing in those 150-400k SP (x however many characters are farming SP) on my main. Also prohibitively expensive for most people, but for those who can afford it there's no cap.
I'd much rather just see new players start out with 5 million SP and call it a day. At the very least I'd like to see the cash-in penalties more in line with:
- < 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector
- 5 million GÇô 20 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector
- 20 million GÇô 50 million total skillpoints = 150,000 skillpoints per injector
- 50 million GÇô 80 million total skillpoints = 50,000 skillpoints per injector
- > 80 million skillpoints = 0 skillpoints per injector
I've been paying an Eve subscription for a few years and am sitting around 50 million SP; this just feels like a slap in the face. |
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
759
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:50:53 -
[85] - Quote
CCP Cognac wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:CCP Cognac wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Can a player remove skill points from any skill?
For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?
Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back? Prereq skills can not be extracted. The will be represented with a lock icon like you can see on this picture. [img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68915/1/Skill_trading_training.png[/img] as soon as the advanced skills have been extracted the former prereq skill will be open for extraction. As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0. This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease). So, let's pretend I'm a sub 5 Million SP character. I've managed /somehow/ to get Caldari Carrier 1, now I have no SP in Caldari Carrier. I can remove the SP from my Caldari Battleship so that's 0 SP and apply the whole 500,000 SP to Caldari Carrier? Thus negating the prerequisite skills needed to fly a Carrier. Therefore having a low SP character focused for one thing. In this case, I should have to remove the Caldari Carrier skill BEFORE I can remove the Caldari Battleship SP. You wont be able to apply skillpoints to skills you don't have the prereqs for. OK, that's good... Thanks for clearing that up!
We also should be able to remove skill books aswell. My OCD doesn't like non lvl 5 skills on my character sheet... I'll be driven insane! |
The Slayer
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
319
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:51:02 -
[86] - Quote
Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP?
You never made an alt? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2304
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:51:35 -
[87] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless. I guess you were in the minority that thought this was a good idea. I do agree that it is a fantastic idea. I don't agree that my opinion represents the minority opinion.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Shinzann
Moosearmy I N G L O R I O U S
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:52:18 -
[88] - Quote
This idea rubbed me the wrong way the first time it was suggested. Even though we already have skill point trading in the form of the character bazaar, this idea still rubs me the wrong way.
It probably has some thing to do with cheapening the effort that I put into training skills over the years.
But since CCP has already decided to go ahead with this idea, it's apparent that alienating the older player base is less important than pandering to the impatient newbros. |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:52:42 -
[89] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? You never made an alt?
I have an alt, it's useless for him too at over 150m sp |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:52:46 -
[90] - Quote
People are really obsessed with the SP gain at the highest SP brackets.
Well, if it changes from 150k to 250k next time, I'll be quite amused.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
|
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2221
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:53:48 -
[91] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Obil Que wrote: Current:
Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.
Future:
Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.
Future Tommy seems to have better options...
That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...' Is this what it comes down to, making our newbies dependent on our space state? Oh so you're saving them huh. I see... What are you complaining about? Your support for this rubbish of a mechanic is what makes our newbies dependent on their credit card, not on how they play.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:54:14 -
[92] - Quote
Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless. I guess you were in the minority that thought this was a good idea. I do agree that it is a fantastic idea. I don't agree that my opinion represents the minority opinion. It's ok, CCP agrees. And they had 300 pages of the same repeated posts worth of data too.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6906
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:55:06 -
[93] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:What are you complaining about? Your support for this rubbish of a mechanic is what makes our newbies dependent on their credit card, not on how they play. Your newbies?
But I thought it was about our newbies?
How many newbies are you getting?
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Ria Nieyli
39361
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:56:48 -
[94] - Quote
300,000 SP per injector in the 50m-80m bracket is a bit too steep. Bump it up to 400k at least. That's the bracket which is going to have your #1 skill packet consumer. Put a hard 0% utilisation at around 100m SP and it's all good. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2306
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:57:34 -
[95] - Quote
Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None.
Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6908
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:59:03 -
[96] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None. Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game. Oh snap, eliteSP, the natural progression of elitePVP having SP minimums.
Until a while ago I couldn't parachute to NC. as I didn't have their 30mil SP minimum,
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Arya Ikahrus
30
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:59:14 -
[97] - Quote
I thought it was bad when it was first announced and I still think it's bad. |
imgoingtodye
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:59:36 -
[98] - Quote
Is their going to be a limit on mount you can take from a player skills? Say I have a 55m toon how far can I suck him dye before I can longer able too? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:02:17 -
[99] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None. Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game.
And they are most likely heavily invested in continuing to play anyway so they won't care about this change. I doubt that many older players ( 2-3 years +) would quit over this since they are already invested in the game and play because they like it above other games. This mechanic will simply milk new players for more RL cash and benefit very space rich older players.
Note that I do not consider a new player paying however much for the PLEX to buy SP up to the entry point for a bigger alliance to be a benefit to them. |
Valterra Craven
592
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:02:36 -
[100] - Quote
Well I can hope beyond reason CCP will see this and consider it, but my guess is going to be not likely.
One of the ways in which I think you should change this for the vets is you remove the restrictions on sp incoming if you've had sp outgoing.
For example. Lets say I'm 120mil sp. Over the years CCP has made a lot of changes to skills over time that are regarded not nearly as important as they once were and now I have *useless* (to me) sp. I'd love to be able to move that SP to other skills.
So lets say I do one extraction for 500k sp. I'm then allowed to buy an injector and use the full 500k. However, the next injector I bought would still be liable for the 150k amount.
If you want you could even subject this to certain limits, like I could only *move* 2mil sp a year like that etc.
Player is still paying market costs etc and CCP still gets its share. Otherwise will be a nice feature for noobs, something else I'm not ever going to use as a bitter vet with 3 chars above 120mil sp. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2307
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:02:57 -
[101] - Quote
imgoingtodye wrote:Is their going to be a limit on mount you can take from a player skills? Say I have a 55m toon how far can I suck him dye before I can longer able too? If the previous blog's details are still relevant, you need a minimum of 5m SP before you can start sucking their brains.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:04:01 -
[102] - Quote
Awesome feature, cant wait. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2307
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:04:12 -
[103] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Well I can hope beyond reason CCP will see this and consider it, but my guess is going to be not likely.
One of the ways in which I think you should change this for the vets is you remove the restrictions on sp incoming if you've had sp outgoing.
For example. Lets say I'm 120mil sp. Over the years CCP has made a lot of changes to skills over time that are regarded not nearly as important as they once were and now I have *useless* (to me) sp. I'd love to be able to move that SP to other skills.
So lets say I do one extraction for 500k sp. I'm then allowed to buy an injector and use the full 500k. However, the next injector I bought would still be liable for the 150k amount.
If you want you could even subject this to certain limits, like I could only *move* 2mil sp a year like that etc.
Player is still paying market costs etc and CCP still gets its share. Otherwise will be a nice feature for noobs, something else I'm not ever going to use as a bitter vet with 3 chars above 120mil sp. I don't think the idea here is to allow you to "reallocate" SP -- it's more intended for you to sell it to other players, or give it to your alts. Being able to "respec" with no penalty would be a bridge too far, in my opinion.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
779
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:05:02 -
[104] - Quote
The skill amounts should still be adjusted to 512k instead of 500k so it matches up with actual skill amounts. Aside from that, looks cool. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6913
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:05:06 -
[105] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Note that I do not consider a new player paying however much for the PLEX to buy SP up to the entry point for a bigger alliance to be a benefit to them. No I doubt it would be, but I'm biased as I didn't have to fulfill a SP requirement to join my small alliance, so perhaps someone in ncdot might be able to tell me more.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
81
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:05:17 -
[106] - Quote
Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless. I guess you were in the minority that thought this was a good idea. I do agree that it is a fantastic idea. I don't agree that my opinion represents the minority opinion.
For once, it seems reddit has the best opinion of skill tradiing. The overall opinion is pretty level-headed over there compared to here and twitter.
|
Varg Wardruna
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:05:21 -
[107] - Quote
Well..looks like there is a Reason now to get a real Job again
Ps: GSF give us dang new Newbee Packages |
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:06:02 -
[108] - Quote
Ralph Drake wrote:Please, CCP, let us be able to remove 0-skill-points skills from our sheet. I don't want the skill book back or anything, I am just obsessive. Also this. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13364
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:06:26 -
[109] - Quote
Shinzann wrote:This idea rubbed me the wrong way the first time it was suggested. Even though we already have skill point trading in the form of the character bazaar, this idea still rubs me the wrong way.
It probably has some thing to do with cheapening the effort that I put into training skills over the years.
But since CCP has already decided to go ahead with this idea, it's apparent that alienating the older player base is less important than pandering to the impatient newbros.
In the end they will do neither. Veterans (and veteran organizations) will learn how to leverage this to better their experience, while new players will find it a turn off or even detrimental.
We've seen thinking like this from CCP before. The question becomes "how many times must a way of thinking fail before it's abandoned?".
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6913
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:06:29 -
[110] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:For once, it seems reddit has the best opinion of skill tradiing. The overall opinion is pretty level-headed over there compared to here and twitter. You heard it guys, get over to reddit and start posting like mad.
And downvote a lot.
Jenn aSide wrote:In the end they will do neither. Veterans (and veteran organizations) will learn how to leverage this to better their experience, while new players will find it a turn off or even detrimental. Sigh, I really wanted to leverage this to better a new player's experience but I guess the lever broke.
edit: not yet, but February is still a way away. Maybe if this crosses 400 posts it'll be abandoned though, I worry!
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
|
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:08:00 -
[111] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:King Dave wrote:As a very high sp character I think you are missing the mark horribly on people like me. I don't want to add more skills to my toon but rearrange the stuff I have. The cost benefit and lost potential usage of extracted skills for whatever reason in the future means I would never be extracting from myself. I would however pay a higher aurum price for a self extractor/injector. It's not tradable (call it genetically coded). You even give it a slight diminished return, but the point is that it resculpts the points of self. Otherwise if I want to get rid of 5 mil in leadership stuff to basically get 1.5 mil in something else plus the cost of a ton of aurum just doesn't make any sense, especially given than game is ever changing and you could tie some leadership skill to a ship, (command Desi anyone?) Honestly a self-restricted "skill rearranger" (which you can buy and trade, but only when empty, and can only use on the character that extracts sp to it) would be nice. You could make it so when you use the "skill rearranger" you fill up your 500k, but instead of giving you a filled extractor, it gives that character the (450k?) SP. No ability to transfer SP to another character.
This is what I am aiming for as well. The proposed system is too inefficient for personal use. |
Estelie Heyan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:08:03 -
[112] - Quote
Happy to see CCP moving forward with this idea. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:10:10 -
[113] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:300,000 SP per injector in the 50m-80m bracket is a bit too steep. Bump it up to 400k at least. That's the bracket which is going to have your #1 skill packet consumer. Put a hard 0% utilisation at around 100m SP and it's all good.
The idea that a player is new at >50m is a very incorrect one. Apparently CCP believes that is the case, but that doesnt change much.
For this idea to not break the game it should have been capped at 10-15m. But of course then it would have been helping primarily new players (or alts, because we need more of those!), and that would be bad. |
Janwaar
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:10:47 -
[114] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None. Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game. And they are most likely heavily invested in continuing to play anyway so they won't care about this change. I doubt that many older players ( 2-3 years +) would quit over this since they are already invested in the game and play because they like it above other games. This mechanic will simply milk new players for more RL cash and benefit very space rich older players. Note that I do not consider a new player paying however much for the PLEX to buy SP up to the entry point for a bigger alliance to be a benefit to them.
i dont agree,i dont play due to all the changes ccp made to the game and it is only that i had paid for this account for a year that i can post,learned a lesson there i guess,once the year is up biomass can take me....and my stuff,so dont ask ponces.. |
Calexis Atredies
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:11:45 -
[115] - Quote
If your goal is to provide "options to help new players with progression" why is this change allowed to affect characters with more than say 50 mill SP?
Did your lead designer not pose the question of how much assistance new players needed to be competitive? Or did your Senior Producers simply rejoice at the idea of more people engaging with these micro-transactions on their older accounts?
The exclusivity of the early adoption SP pool for your title is gone, what separated a player of 4 or 10 years is now nothing other than their employment history and DOB. |
Quadira
Zacharia Explorations Group Arx Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:11:46 -
[116] - Quote
Still a bad idea CCP.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6913
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:13:12 -
[117] - Quote
Ok, honestly as a "vet" (do I qualify? What's the SP minimum to qualify) it isn't that great even for me to make new alts as I am unlikely to (1) suddenly need a new general alt... or even a new specialized alt, and (2) it will presumably be "cheaper" to train the usual way, and I don't have that sudden need.
But I do think the genuinely new player (not just the alt of someone who probably also has 5 other alts and won't need all of them RIGHT NOW) is the one who benefits the most from just a single little boost of 500k SP.
They can't go and do something else... except train I guess. So it helps this particular edge a lot.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:13:34 -
[118] - Quote
Janwaar wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None. Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game. And they are most likely heavily invested in continuing to play anyway so they won't care about this change. I doubt that many older players ( 2-3 years +) would quit over this since they are already invested in the game and play because they like it above other games. This mechanic will simply milk new players for more RL cash and benefit very space rich older players. Note that I do not consider a new player paying however much for the PLEX to buy SP up to the entry point for a bigger alliance to be a benefit to them. i dont agree,i dont play due to all the changes ccp made to the game and it is only that i had paid for this account for a year that i can post,learned a lesson there i guess,once the year is up biomass can take me....and my stuff,so dont ask ponces..
They don't care so much about your stuff now that they can have your brainsssssss.... |
Valterra Craven
592
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:14:19 -
[119] - Quote
Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Well I can hope beyond reason CCP will see this and consider it, but my guess is going to be not likely.
One of the ways in which I think you should change this for the vets is you remove the restrictions on sp incoming if you've had sp outgoing.
For example. Lets say I'm 120mil sp. Over the years CCP has made a lot of changes to skills over time that are regarded not nearly as important as they once were and now I have *useless* (to me) sp. I'd love to be able to move that SP to other skills.
So lets say I do one extraction for 500k sp. I'm then allowed to buy an injector and use the full 500k. However, the next injector I bought would still be liable for the 150k amount.
If you want you could even subject this to certain limits, like I could only *move* 2mil sp a year like that etc.
Player is still paying market costs etc and CCP still gets its share. Otherwise will be a nice feature for noobs, something else I'm not ever going to use as a bitter vet with 3 chars above 120mil sp. I don't think the idea here is to allow you to "reallocate" SP -- it's more intended for you to sell it to other players, or give it to your alts. Being able to "respec" with no penalty would be a bridge too far, in my opinion.
I understand, which is why my idea didn't come without limits to do it. That said the major flaw with this idea is that I don't think that there is enough incentive for people to extract SP in the first place. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:15:21 -
[120] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Well I can hope beyond reason CCP will see this and consider it, but my guess is going to be not likely.
One of the ways in which I think you should change this for the vets is you remove the restrictions on sp incoming if you've had sp outgoing.
For example. Lets say I'm 120mil sp. Over the years CCP has made a lot of changes to skills over time that are regarded not nearly as important as they once were and now I have *useless* (to me) sp. I'd love to be able to move that SP to other skills.
So lets say I do one extraction for 500k sp. I'm then allowed to buy an injector and use the full 500k. However, the next injector I bought would still be liable for the 150k amount.
If you want you could even subject this to certain limits, like I could only *move* 2mil sp a year like that etc.
Player is still paying market costs etc and CCP still gets its share. Otherwise will be a nice feature for noobs, something else I'm not ever going to use as a bitter vet with 3 chars above 120mil sp.
Seems to be a one-man project unless you consider actual implementation dev time. This same dev posted zero(?) times in the actual discussion thread that he supposedly asked for. |
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:16:15 -
[121] - Quote
Calexis Atredies wrote:If your goal is to provide "options to help new players with progression" why is this change allowed to affect characters with more than say 50 mill SP?
Did your lead designer not pose the question of how much assistance new players needed to be competitive? Or did your Senior Producers simply rejoice at the idea of more people engaging with these micro-transactions on their older accounts?
The exclusivity of the early adoption SP pool for your title is gone, what separated a player of 4 or 10 years is now nothing other than their employment history and DOB.
Because money, not new players, is the goal. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:16:55 -
[122] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:... But I do think the genuinely new player (not just the alt of someone who probably also has 5 other alts and won't need all of them RIGHT NOW) is the one who benefits the most from just a single little boost of 500k SP.
They can't go and do something else... except train I guess. So it helps this particular edge a lot.
I think if that were true and this change wasa really intended to help new players then they would simply have given the 500 K SP on the starter character (allocated or unallocated). This is purely about making money through people buying PLEX to buy SP (and pushing up PLEX prices as a sideline, again benefiting the older players who can afford to stockpile them to sell later). |
Amanda Rekenwhith
CODE - Industrial Compliance Division
55
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:16:58 -
[123] - Quote
My question is this:
It says points can be extracted if the character has 5,000,000 or more SP. Does this mean I can't milk an alt down to zero? If he has 5.8 million SP, only one million can be extracted? Or since he had 5,000,000+ at one point I can extract him to nothing?
For dessert we're offering humble pie. -áWould you like some after you're done eating crow?
|
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:17:26 -
[124] - Quote
Sooo awesome!! Resubbed immediately when I read about this feature in the previous blog post. Really happy that it is finally implemented. CCP BEST COMPANY EVER!! |
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:18:51 -
[125] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:the major flaw with this idea is that I don't think that there is enough incentive for people to extract SP in the first place. Sure there is. I have 140 million sp. I dont need to buy any and I wont buy any. Dont need isk and dont need to sell any but there are skills I would like to remove in order to have a perfectly orange character sheet with all V's in important things.
This feature is about character customization not pay-to-win or anything of the sort.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2307
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:19:05 -
[126] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless. I guess you were in the minority that thought this was a good idea. I do agree that it is a fantastic idea. I don't agree that my opinion represents the minority opinion. For once, it seems reddit has the best opinion of skill tradiing. The overall opinion is pretty level-headed over there compared to here and twitter. Funny thing about that -- I was monitoring that thread. The opinion was, initially, full-on panic, until Elise Randolph posted about it. Then, everyone was okay with it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Melek D'Ivri
Nachtwasser GmbH
61
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:20:11 -
[127] - Quote
I am going to assume the anti-skill-purchase group voice was drowned out then. Not only was it not heard, you actually went the other direction with it and increased what high skilled / rich players in game can purchase with their ISK. This is not even microtransactions, something like this can only be called macrotransactions.
The joy and art of patiently learning a skill in EVE, while frustrating, will be eliminated, and anyone with a good credit card can suddenly feel like they "won EVE". Yes, the experience isn't there, so they will likely die quickly in their hard-purchased ship and the skills that fly it, so that will leave most of them two options: buy another ship with PLEX they sold or quit after wasting their money. Now here's where the old, "What's it really matter if they leave, if we've got their money?" argument comes in. Yes it matters! Then they tell everyone they know the game is crap and only wants your personal bank account information, those people tell people, etc.
The people pushing for these and the higher rates you guys gave them have you in their pocket and don't care about EVE. I am sure they supposedly claimed to be wanting to help the new players with this, but it won't. Those that have the majority of wealth are only trying to cushion the gap between them and new players coming in even more.
This is going to drastically reduce the time it takes to learn all the skills, meaning players will run out of things to learn, do those things they've never done, then be done. They will have no reason to continue playing, or will lapse their accounts during long breaks between content. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:20:32 -
[128] - Quote
Woo!
Please, just don't screw up with the AUR cost. If you price it too high then even the people who think this is a good idea will turn against you, not to mention those against. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
135
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:25:29 -
[129] - Quote
Look at the end of the day this is out of our hands...if CCP want to break their own sand castle who are we to argue...so go ahead ...just don't expect any sympathy when there are no more players left to pay the bills. I have 5 accounts each with way over 50 mil sp ...im just going to sell their skills off... make a **** ton of isk and keep my main.
now take that to the bank ...and decide how well you thought this through . |
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:29:42 -
[130] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:Look at the end of the day this is out of our hands...if CCP want to break their own sand castle who are we to argue...so go ahead ...just don't expect any sympathy when there are no more players left to pay the bills. I have 5 accounts each with way over 50 mil sp ...im just going to sell their skills off... make a **** ton of isk and keep my main.
now take that to the bank ...and decide how well you thought this through .
what can you say to a mentality of a potato
that statement will cost you a shitload |
|
Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:31:03 -
[131] - Quote
It's a horrible idea.. All we need are skillpoint remaps.. maybe available every 2 years +- or purchase from CCP..
((( Alliance Creation )))
Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++
Contact me In-Game.
|
Adunh Slavy
1630
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:31:19 -
[132] - Quote
Mixed feelings about this ... I am glad it does not magically add skill points to the game, that would truly be pay to win and a horrible thing. This may, assuming mid range characters consume SP for sale, decrease the total amount of SP in the game world ... that is until someone discovers the most economically viable way to farm SP.
My biggest concern with this is the same concern with all of these Aurum based micro-transactions - lack of in game resources consumed to produce the ability or feature.
It's all well and good, CCP, that you are not introducing resources created from nothing but you are creating something from nothing all too often, despite any claims to the contrary. The ability to move SP has only one true cost, and that is Aurum ... real money in the real world. The ability and process simply now exist at no in game cost except the paltry few minutes it takes to manipulate the GUI.
All of this stuff should have an in game cost, be it minerals, PI, moon goo or the corpses of dead rats. CCP you are missing an opportunity to give more depth to the Eve economy. I'm glad your real world revenue may get a small boost, but you are short changing the game by neglecting in-game wealth consumption.
Vanity is an expression of wealth, yet none of it is consumed by said vanity.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6913
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:35:27 -
[133] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:My biggest concern with this is the same concern with all of these Aurum based micro-transactions - lack of in game resources consumed to produce the ability or feature.
It's all well and good, CCP, that you are not introducing resources created from nothing but you are creating something from nothing all too often, despite any claims to the contrary. The ability to move SP has only one true cost, and that is Aurum ... real money in the real world. The ability and process simply now exist at no in game cost except the paltry few minutes it takes to manipulate the GUI.
All of this stuff should have an in game cost, be it minerals, PI, moon goo or the corpses of dead rats.. No, Player Corpses.
Oh and I guess technetium
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
GeeBee
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
95
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:35:56 -
[134] - Quote
This is a step in the wrong direction and a disservice to all players new and old. Eve is already in a way pay to win by way of subscription time and time investment. This change solidifies EVE as pay to win for a starting player and sets a poor standard that will resound across the gaming communities. The only people who are in favor of this are those who profit from it. |
Mashie Saldana
TunDraGon
1633
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:36:06 -
[135] - Quote
I have 213mill SP and just for the record, I wish skill injector couldn't be used on 80/100mill SP toon.
Since it's never gonna happen I would settle for 50k SP / Injector.
But again, few weeks and 300+ pages later haven't changed anything.
How to win EVE
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6913
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:36:35 -
[136] - Quote
Querns wrote:Hendrink Collie wrote:For once, it seems reddit has the best opinion of skill tradiing. The overall opinion is pretty level-headed over there compared to here and twitter. Funny thing about that -- I was monitoring that thread. The opinion was, initially, full-on panic, until Elise Randolph posted about it. Then, everyone was okay with it. So you're saying it's actually a minority, just a minority that includes Elise Randolph?
And of course noted poster Querns.
Mashie Saldana wrote:But again, few weeks and 300+ pages later haven't changed anything. I can think of at least one, 150K at top SP bracket instead of 50K.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:37:02 -
[137] - Quote
B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Look at the end of the day this is out of our hands...if CCP want to break their own sand castle who are we to argue...so go ahead ...just don't expect any sympathy when there are no more players left to pay the bills. I have 5 accounts each with way over 50 mil sp ...im just going to sell their skills off... make a **** ton of isk and keep my main.
now take that to the bank ...and decide how well you thought this through . what can you say to a mentality of a potato that statement will cost you a shitload
I dont expect you to get what Im saying ...fucken noob....
|
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
759
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:40:28 -
[138] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Woo!
Please, just don't screw up with the AUR cost. If you price it too high then even the people who think this is a good idea will turn against you, not to mention those against.
Simple math can get a estimate.
With 2, 500...ish SP/hr you get 1,800,000 SP/month...or per PLEX (1,100,000,000 ISK)
PLEX is worth what 3,500 AUR.
500,000 SP is what the skill packs will be in.
So, you're looking at about 875 AUR to buy from the Store. Or 275,000,000 ISK.
Then you include the SP... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6913
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:40:40 -
[139] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Look at the end of the day this is out of our hands...if CCP want to break their own sand castle who are we to argue...so go ahead ...just don't expect any sympathy when there are no more players left to pay the bills. I have 5 accounts each with way over 50 mil sp ...im just going to sell their skills off... make a **** ton of isk and keep my main.
now take that to the bank ...and decide how well you thought this through . what can you say to a mentality of a potato that statement will cost you a shitload I dont expect you to get what Im saying ...fucken noob.... Perhaps an SP injection would help.
Wait until Feb.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1376
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:41:12 -
[140] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:... But I do think the genuinely new player (not just the alt of someone who probably also has 5 other alts and won't need all of them RIGHT NOW) is the one who benefits the most from just a single little boost of 500k SP.
They can't go and do something else... except train I guess. So it helps this particular edge a lot. I think if that were true and this change wasa really intended to help new players then they would simply have given the 500 K SP on the starter character (allocated or unallocated). This is purely about making money through people buying PLEX to buy SP (and pushing up PLEX prices as a sideline, again benefiting the older players who can afford to stockpile them to sell later).
Not to mention that new player is not going to have the isk to buy this so is only option will be to pay real money to get it one of the first things you do in a game should o not be pay a sub and then immediately pay for progression.
One of the great things about eve was it hardly ever played into instant gratification and it certainly never felt as p2w as this
The change has nothing to do with benefiting new players and every thing to do worth ccp selling sp in a pretty rapper
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:42:24 -
[141] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Look at the end of the day this is out of our hands...if CCP want to break their own sand castle who are we to argue...so go ahead ...just don't expect any sympathy when there are no more players left to pay the bills. Quote: I have 5 accounts each with way over 50 mil sp ...im just going to sell their skills off... make a **** ton of isk and keep my main. now take that to the bank ...and decide how well you thought this through . what can you say to a mentality of a potato that statement will cost you a shitload I dont expect you to get what Im saying ...fucken noob.... pretty sure i got it.same as others probably did too.sorry about the potato....plum |
Hendrink Collie
Blood Oath Foundation Adaptation.
81
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:42:41 -
[142] - Quote
Querns wrote: Funny thing about that -- I was monitoring that thread. The opinion was, initially, full-on panic, until Elise Randolph posted about it. Then, everyone was okay with it.
Haha, yeah I remember that. Was hilarious how quickly the mood changes once Elise put his two cents in.
That being said, I was talking specifically about today's reaction, not when it was first thrown out. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:43:34 -
[143] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Captain Africa wrote:B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:Captain Africa wrote:Look at the end of the day this is out of our hands...if CCP want to break their own sand castle who are we to argue...so go ahead ...just don't expect any sympathy when there are no more players left to pay the bills. I have 5 accounts each with way over 50 mil sp ...im just going to sell their skills off... make a **** ton of isk and keep my main.
now take that to the bank ...and decide how well you thought this through . what can you say to a mentality of a potato that statement will cost you a shitload I dont expect you to get what Im saying ...fucken noob.... Perhaps an SP injection would help. Wait until Feb.
lol yea you can buy directly from me ....give you some discount perhaps.. |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
473
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:44:15 -
[144] - Quote
Alexxei wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:the major flaw with this idea is that I don't think that there is enough incentive for people to extract SP in the first place. Sure there is. I have 140 million sp. I dont need to buy any and I wont buy any. Dont need isk and dont need to sell any but there are skills I would like to remove in order to have a perfectly orange character sheet with all V's in important things. This feature is about character customization not pay-to-win or anything of the sort.
You will not have a perfectly orange sheet with all lvl 5s. You will have a bunch of 0 level skills everywhere mixed in the the level 5s.
Actually you skill sheet will look even worst then.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
|
Assassin126
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:45:43 -
[145] - Quote
Something feels wrong about having AUR costs for it, its the first thing where AUR can help you buy skills.. I guess it depends a bit on the cost though. I just worry that like everything else it will be overpriced. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:48:43 -
[146] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:Alexxei wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:the major flaw with this idea is that I don't think that there is enough incentive for people to extract SP in the first place. Sure there is. I have 140 million sp. I dont need to buy any and I wont buy any. Dont need isk and dont need to sell any but there are skills I would like to remove in order to have a perfectly orange character sheet with all V's in important things. This feature is about character customization not pay-to-win or anything of the sort. You will not have a perfectly orange sheet with all lvl 5s. You will have a bunch of 0 level skills everywhere mixed in the the level 5s. Actually you skill sheet will look even worst then.
Lol he Says it's not pay to win maybe not in that example but what about the guy willing to spend a couple grand on an online game just so he get all the Vs right away
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:49:36 -
[147] - Quote
Assassin126 wrote:Something feels wrong about having AUR costs for it, its the first thing where AUR can help you buy skills.. I guess it depends a bit on the cost though. I just worry that like everything else it will be overpriced.
Considering there is no limit any price will be over price as thighs who can spend more will get more sp
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:49:47 -
[148] - Quote
Ok, now Dear CCP please explain, why whould one ever play with with all that useless starter level contenet in that game if one could just dotane x amont of PLEX and buy top tier stuff?
day 1 newbro wants to play meatshield for "big boys"? Donate and fly FOTM.
t1 frigs? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that keres!.
t1 cruisers? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that cerb/prot.whatever is Ishtar ATM.
Or just go big and donate your way to Caps, sit, waiting for a ping, alt+tab, play WOT.
Want to do some 1-4 missions? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that AFKtar, come back to get moar SP \0/ (or use a bot in dead-end system for that extra oumpf)
Thats sad that major source of isk in that game is ratting -> grind.
Welcome the new Korean style EVE:G , grind your way to "top".
next step is enchantments for my Moros! Great idea, to have it at least +8! It should shine with blue color!
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2307
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:51:03 -
[149] - Quote
Assassin126 wrote:Something feels wrong about having AUR costs for it, its the first thing where AUR can help you buy skills.. I guess it depends a bit on the cost though. I just worry that like everything else it will be overpriced. Avert your eyes from the character bazaar forum, then -- effecting a transfer of a character costs 2 PLEX or some money amount which I cannot remember.
There's basically no way CCP will exclude a PLEX or AUR cost from the extractors. If their finance employees are even remotely worth their pay, they would see such an exclusion as a reduction in the capacity of the business to resolve or draw down their liabilities, due to the inevitable reduction in frequency of character transfers. This would be extremely hard to justify.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:51:28 -
[150] - Quote
Hendrink Collie wrote:Querns wrote: Funny thing about that -- I was monitoring that thread. The opinion was, initially, full-on panic, until Elise Randolph posted about it. Then, everyone was okay with it.
Haha, yeah I remember that. Was hilarious how quickly the mood changes once Elise put his two cents in. That being said, I was talking specifically about today's reaction, not when it was first thrown out.
The fanboyism totally took over. |
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:52:05 -
[151] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Assassin126 wrote:Something feels wrong about having AUR costs for it, its the first thing where AUR can help you buy skills.. I guess it depends a bit on the cost though. I just worry that like everything else it will be overpriced. Considering there is no limit any price will be over price as thighs who can spend more will get more sp
Who's thighs are you thinking about?
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:52:56 -
[152] - Quote
Vibiana wrote:Ok, now Dear CCP please explain, why whould one ever play with with all that useless starter level contenet in that game if one could just dotane x amont of PLEX and buy top tier stuff?
day 1 newbro wants to play meatshield for "big boys"? Donate and fly FOTM.
t1 frigs? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that keres!.
t1 cruisers? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that cerb/prot.whatever is Ishtar ATM.
Or just go big and donate your way to Caps, sit, waiting for a ping, alt+tab, play WOT.
Want to do some 1-4 missions? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that AFKtar, come back to get moar SP \0/ (or use a bot in dead-end system for that extra oumpf)
Thats sad that major source of isk in that game is ratting -> grind.
Welcome the new Korean style EVE:G , grind your way to "top".
next step is enchantments for my Moros! Great idea, to have it at least +8! It should shine with blue color!
it is amazing how many people with strong opinions on this subject don't know the character bazar exists |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:53:50 -
[153] - Quote
Vibiana wrote:Ok, now Dear CCP please explain, why whould one ever play with with all that useless starter level contenet in that game if one could just dotane x amont of PLEX and buy top tier stuff?
day 1 newbro wants to play meatshield for "big boys"? Donate and fly FOTM.
t1 frigs? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that keres!.
t1 cruisers? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that cerb/prot.whatever is Ishtar ATM.
Or just go big and donate your way to Caps, sit, waiting for a ping, alt+tab, play WOT.
Want to do some 1-4 missions? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that AFKtar, come back to get moar SP \0/ (or use a bot in dead-end system for that extra oumpf)
Thats sad that major source of isk in that game is ratting -> grind.
Welcome the new Korean style EVE:G , grind your way to "top".
next step is enchantments for my Moros! Great idea, to have it at least +8! It should shine with blue color!
Probably gonna be obsolete like 50% of the current content. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:54:17 -
[154] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Assassin126 wrote:Something feels wrong about having AUR costs for it, its the first thing where AUR can help you buy skills.. I guess it depends a bit on the cost though. I just worry that like everything else it will be overpriced. Considering there is no limit any price will be over price as thighs who can spend more will get more sp Who's thighs are you thinking about?
Lol you try using the phone
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Scaugh
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:56:14 -
[155] - Quote
This will be if released as planned, the very first Pay2Win item in EVE.
Up until now all items bought through the New Eden Store have been nothing more than fancy clothing and ship skins. nothing that will give a player an advantage over another. After this update, we are one step closer a Pay2Win model.
The GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ should be available by other methods as well as the New Eden Store. Perhaps from CONCORD and/or Sansha LP stores at a high price. |
Picman
Lag o mio
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:56:43 -
[156] - Quote
Well, I am completely against this wonderful feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time. In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already.
The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game. CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you. Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero.
So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone.
Best regards, Picman |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:56:56 -
[157] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vibiana wrote:Ok, now Dear CCP please explain, why whould one ever play with with all that useless starter level contenet in that game if one could just dotane x amont of PLEX and buy top tier stuff?
day 1 newbro wants to play meatshield for "big boys"? Donate and fly FOTM.
t1 frigs? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that keres!.
t1 cruisers? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that cerb/prot.whatever is Ishtar ATM.
Or just go big and donate your way to Caps, sit, waiting for a ping, alt+tab, play WOT.
Want to do some 1-4 missions? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that AFKtar, come back to get moar SP \0/ (or use a bot in dead-end system for that extra oumpf)
Thats sad that major source of isk in that game is ratting -> grind.
Welcome the new Korean style EVE:G , grind your way to "top".
next step is enchantments for my Moros! Great idea, to have it at least +8! It should shine with blue color!
it is amazing how many people with strong opinions on this subject don't know the character bazar exists
Sure I Do but I also know that the bazaar doesn't let me get level V in every thing aiming I have the money
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
488
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:58:08 -
[158] - Quote
Amanda Rekenwhith wrote:My question is this:
It says points can be extracted if the character has 5,000,000 or more SP. Does this mean I can't milk an alt down to zero? If he has 5.8 million SP, only one million can be extracted? Or since he had 5,000,000+ at one point I can extract him to nothing?
You can never go below 5 Million SP. So to extract SP from a character they will need to have at least 5.5 million SP.
@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
|
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:00:08 -
[159] - Quote
Scaugh wrote:This will be if released as planned, the very first Pay2Win item in EVE.
Up until now all items bought through the New Eden Store have been nothing more than fancy clothing and ship skins. nothing that will give a player an advantage over another. After this update, we are one step closer to a Pay2Win model.
The GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ should be available by other methods as well as the New Eden Store. Perhaps from CONCORD and/or Sansha LP stores at a high price.
I do hate to say this but it's very similar to just buying a plex and chasing it in to skip out on actually earning the item
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:01:05 -
[160] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Amanda Rekenwhith wrote:My question is this:
It says points can be extracted if the character has 5,000,000 or more SP. Does this mean I can't milk an alt down to zero? If he has 5.8 million SP, only one million can be extracted? Or since he had 5,000,000+ at one point I can extract him to nothing? You can never go below 5 Million SP. So to extract SP from a character they will need to have at least 5.5 million SP.
So there is just a minium tone before my character can turn into an sp cow?
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
Vabanaz Arjar
Damned Nebula Privateers
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:01:22 -
[161] - Quote
Now you made me sad, CCP...
|
Magic Park
Space Garden Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:01:24 -
[162] - Quote
i hope you won't allow extracting SP from the starting skillset? If that would be the case the following plan is probably broken.
1. Create new character with about 400k SP 2. Remap 3. Train for 2 days to get up to 500k SP 4. Extract 500k SP 5. Transfer injector to another toon. 6. Biomass 7. Goto 1
With this method you would be able to extract 15 full injectors in a month. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:02:13 -
[163] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vibiana wrote:Ok, now Dear CCP please explain, why whould one ever play with with all that useless starter level contenet in that game if one could just dotane x amont of PLEX and buy top tier stuff?
day 1 newbro wants to play meatshield for "big boys"? Donate and fly FOTM.
t1 frigs? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that keres!.
t1 cruisers? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that cerb/prot.whatever is Ishtar ATM.
Or just go big and donate your way to Caps, sit, waiting for a ping, alt+tab, play WOT.
Want to do some 1-4 missions? Forget. Buy a drug and inject it to get that AFKtar, come back to get moar SP \0/ (or use a bot in dead-end system for that extra oumpf)
Thats sad that major source of isk in that game is ratting -> grind.
Welcome the new Korean style EVE:G , grind your way to "top".
next step is enchantments for my Moros! Great idea, to have it at least +8! It should shine with blue color!
it is amazing how many people with strong opinions on this subject don't know the character bazar exists
what I dont understand is how people can not see the difference between sp on the the market and a complete character you buy on the bazaar...(if you view them the same then I can understand your argument).. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3006
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:02:13 -
[164] - Quote
CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why?
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:03:08 -
[165] - Quote
Scaugh wrote:This will be if released as planned, the very first Pay2Win item in EVE.
Up until now all items bought through the New Eden Store have been nothing more than fancy clothing and ship skins. nothing that will give a player an advantage over another. After this update, we are one step closer to a Pay2Win model.
The GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ should be available by other methods as well as the New Eden Store. Perhaps from CONCORD and/or Sansha LP stores at a high price.
They introduce it slowly. If its not called "golden ammo", its not actually golden ammo.
If I manufacture a rifter, maybe CCP wants a cut? Researched blueprint for AUR? Helps newbies catch up, right? |
Aphatasis
Evoke. Ev0ke
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:03:30 -
[166] - Quote
CCPLEASE(!!!) let us removed non trained skills after removing all Skillpoints!!
Got about 170mil SP in total but there are these sins u make in very youth days when u train things like "Advanced Small Ship Construction" cause u found the skill or bought it cause u could train it, but weeks later u realized, it was ****. Have 272k SP in Production total, and only skilled "Industry V" for flying Jump-Freighter und Cloaky Haulers.
Same with Mining, Resource Processing, Distribution Connection, some Corp Skills, etc |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1378
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:03:40 -
[167] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why?
Never character selling costs plex and so gives them money
Citadel worm hole tax
|
X Minx
XiTiX AII ShaII Perish
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:04:00 -
[168] - Quote
Sincerely really happy that CCP is implementing this. The present skill system needs a boost and Eve being such a long standing game can result in a skill tree that 'looks' like a grind too far as a new capsuleer.
Kudos for following through. |
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:04:20 -
[169] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:Alexxei wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:the major flaw with this idea is that I don't think that there is enough incentive for people to extract SP in the first place. Sure there is. I have 140 million sp. I dont need to buy any and I wont buy any. Dont need isk and dont need to sell any but there are skills I would like to remove in order to have a perfectly orange character sheet with all V's in important things. This feature is about character customization not pay-to-win or anything of the sort. You will not have a perfectly orange sheet with all lvl 5s. You will have a bunch of 0 level skills everywhere mixed in the the level 5s. Actually you skill sheet will look even worst then. Thats why they need to sell an amnesia potion on the eve store to let us "forget" skills. Im trying to throw money at you CCP.
|
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
285
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:04:44 -
[170] - Quote
Is this a step towards removing learning implants and making SP a flat per-hour gain? It seems like only minmaxing alt skillpoint farmers will be able to compete at selling skillpoints. |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1379
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:06:26 -
[171] - Quote
X Minx wrote:Sincerely really happy that CCP is implementing this. The present skill system needs a boost and Eve being such a long standing game can result in a skill tree that 'looks' like a grind too far as a new capsuleer.
Kudos for following through.
One of the best things about eve is that its one of the few games left that doesn't cater to instant gratification
Citadel worm hole tax
|
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:06:58 -
[172] - Quote
worst idea ever
1 char bazar already exist 2 this system will be abuse 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
[quote][we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training./quote]
But if i just buy all my SP on my new char ? He will never train a skill, but yet will be able to have a lot of skills ? How fair is that for people who spent 10years training skill ?
And the biggest question i have is when will you allocate ressources to give us 'jesus' features back instead of spending your time killing the caps and the sp ?
edit : you better have sell gold ammo in 2k13 than this 2 years later |
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:08:02 -
[173] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Scaugh wrote:This will be if released as planned, the very first Pay2Win item in EVE.
Up until now all items bought through the New Eden Store have been nothing more than fancy clothing and ship skins. nothing that will give a player an advantage over another. After this update, we are one step closer to a Pay2Win model.
The GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ should be available by other methods as well as the New Eden Store. Perhaps from CONCORD and/or Sansha LP stores at a high price. They introduce it slowly. If its not called "golden ammo", its not actually golden ammo. If I manufacture a rifter, maybe CCP wants a cut? Researched blueprint for AUR? Helps newbies catch up, right?
pls support my idea of implementation of progressive korean game mechanics! Grind -> get -> enchanant -> lolwtfpwn.
Lets make a thread and ask CCP to add enchantments and bless enchantments to enchant or ships or skills!
I want that +8 Levi! |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1379
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:08:12 -
[174] - Quote
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote:worst idea ever
1 char bazar already exist 2 this system will be abuse 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
[quote][we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training./quote]
But if i just buy all my SP on my new char ? He will never train a skill, but yet will be able to have a lot of skills ? How fair is that for people who spent 10years training skill ?
And the biggest question i have is when will you allocate ressources to give us 'jesus' features back instead of spending your time killing the caps and the sp ?
How fare is it to people who simply can't afford it
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2308
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:10:55 -
[175] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why? They're not planning to do so. The Character Bazaar will continue to exist after this addition.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2308
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:12:32 -
[176] - Quote
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mance Sevrin
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:13:30 -
[177] - Quote
Magic Park wrote:i hope you won't allow extracting SP from the starting skillset? If that would be the case the following plan is probably broken.
1. Create new character with about 400k SP 2. Remap 3. Train for 2 days to get up to 500k SP 4. Extract 500k SP 5. Transfer injector to another toon. 6. Biomass 7. Goto 1
With this method you would be able to extract 15 full injectors in a month.
Read the blog dumbass |
Lord Kreza
The Scope Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:13:45 -
[178] - Quote
Really excited by this feature, thanks CCP! |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1379
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:13:46 -
[179] - Quote
Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Jai Centarium
Anqara Expeditions
60
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:14:57 -
[180] - Quote
Sad.
Skill points were the one thing that was immutable. Invincible. Both a cap on your ability and a reminder of foolish mistakes you once made. It was the crushing gutpunch at the end of Nightfreeze's Great Scam. He was rich, but because he had to abandon his old identity, he was able to do nothing with those riches.
That tale brought me to EVE.
I had great experiences. I made great friends.
Life moved my orbit farther out, but I was told, and I believed, that EVE Never Fades.
I guess I was wrong about that, too.
Everything fades eventually.
Certified purveyor of the High Life.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26750
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:15:58 -
[181] - Quote
Still utterly idiotic; still benefits older players more than it ever will new ones; still breaks T3s in horrible ways.
GǪsighGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
|
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:16:07 -
[182] - Quote
Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar.
There is a difference between buying a char who specialised and training a day one char into a titan ? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2310
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:16:54 -
[183] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar Yes, you can, if you buy the right character.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2310
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:18:01 -
[184] - Quote
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. There is a difference between buying a char who specialised and training a day one char into a titan ? There's really not.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
302
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:18:21 -
[185] - Quote
So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here! |
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:18:34 -
[186] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar
You can't buy Plex, sell in game and use the isk to buy characters on the bazaar?
RIP Character Bazaar
Thanks for another kick to the nuts CCP |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1380
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:18:36 -
[187] - Quote
Querns wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar Yes, you can, if you buy the right character.
No you can't add currently it takes longer to train all to V than eve had been around so that charcuterie doesn't exist
Citadel worm hole tax
|
The Slayer
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
319
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:19:36 -
[188] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar
Have you any idea how insanely infeasible this is. You would need approximately 1500 plex injectors to get from 80mil to the 500mil you would need for max SP and in doing so you would be removing around 600,000,000 SP from the game. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1380
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:19:37 -
[189] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here!
I really hope it's not incarna 2.0
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1380
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:20:43 -
[190] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar Have you any idea how insanely infeasible this is. You would need approximately 1500 plex injectors to get from 80mil to the 500mil you would need for max SP and in doing so you would be removing around 600,000,000 SP from the game.
But not impossable
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:21:59 -
[191] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar Have you any idea how insanely infeasible this is. You would need approximately 1500 plex injectors to get from 80mil to the 500mil you would need for max SP and in doing so you would be removing around 600,000,000 SP from the game.
If they sell for 300mil a piece that is only 4.5 Trillion
It is entirely possible some in game could do that, but they wouldn't need to because those guys probably already have 100mil + SP
So they would really need less than 4 Trillion.
Wow, MATHS
450bil
You only need 450Bil |
Marsha Mallow
2796
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:22:01 -
[192] - Quote
Good to see this one is going ahead. It's well timed and I think CCP have taken the right approach by proposing then stepping back for a bit - players are actually demanding it now and have been for a few weeks.
The adjustments to the SP ratios look solid. Ongoing it might be worth adding more incremental steps, but for ease of use it's probably best to keep it streamlined for the time being.
You really need to find a way to remove skillbooks whose skills have been fully extracted. This OCD urge we have to tidy up our skillsheets isn't a joke >.> If they can't be removed from the sheet and restored to the inventory as a physical item even a r-click, delete option would do for the time being.
It might be worth considering integrating this into the proposal. The objections raised seemed to be that players might sell characters with unallocated SP on the bazaar, which is irrelevant under a system in which you need an extractor to reallocate the SP. There may well be a lot of players whose subs continued at various points and had no skills training, and I suspect they'll start petitioning this unallocated SP in larger numbers going forward. Perhaps it's worth issuing SP to players who are owed some within a particular timeframe as a gesture of goodwill?
We need to see those numbers on the Skill Extractors asap. This sentiment being expressed over gouging can be alleviated by taking the opportunity to create legitimate micro transactions - which Skins didn't quite achieve due to the pricing structure. The earlier blog suggested a price roughly equivalent to a character transfer - 'The Transneural Skill Extractor is analogous to the PLEX service fee in the character bazaar' - which is currently 2 plex or $20. With roughly 1.94m Sp acquired with max skills/implants/mapping currently per 30 days that's equivalent to 1/2 a plex or $5 per injector @ 500k SP (if you actually meant 2 plex per 500k it's ludicrously high). I ran the numbers on this shortly after the first blog and it's not too pricey at the lower levels, but it threw up some eye popping figures further up the scale. If you adopt this model the Injector will be twice the basevalue of the raw skillpoints in relation to $/Plex - I'm not sure what the effects of that will be on the Plex market, but it's a cringey proposition. I'm really looking forward to people generally being able to see some solid numbers - but trying to gestimate $ > Aurum with the Injector as an unknown variable and speculative raw SP values isn't an easy task.
It might be worth allowing people to convert Plex into small denomination Aurum tokens either to redeem or sell on the market for various reasons. And run an Aurum sale before/around deployment perhaps. Also give new characters a goodwill Injector on their character sheet - like a neural remap, that can only be redeemed by that character at over 5.5m sp? I'm thinking as a rookie gift that can be used or saved not one that generates an additional trade source. It might be worth making Aurum a buddy code reward alongside Plex/30 days gametime too. And we could do with being able to transfer Aurum between characters. I know there's probably residual Aurum on accounts from the initial CCP gift, but if people have scraps they can't redeem across multiple accounts, they could actually spend it if you allow them to consolidate.
Quote:youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE This sounds promising, hopefully there's a few more big theme ideas floating about.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
|
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2225
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:22:44 -
[193] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:What are you complaining about? Your support for this rubbish of a mechanic is what makes our newbies dependent on their credit card, not on how they play. Your newbies? But I thought it was about our newbies? How many newbies are you getting? Our, not your. Read what I write and what you wrote, dear.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Mr Grape Drink
Sugar - Water - Purple The Mutiny
80
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:25:35 -
[194] - Quote
The only larger issue I see here is a lot of people to some extent assess the risk of somebody in system with them by their age. If I see a 3 day old pilot in a starter corp, it really doesn't bother me much. When said pilot uncloaks a T3 and lights a cov cyno it's going to throw me off. Will there be some way to determine that said 3 day old starter corp guy might actually be in a T3 with a cov cyno? :D |
Joanna RB
Twenty Questions RAZOR Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:29:10 -
[195] - Quote
Please, whatever you do with pricing, don't involve PLEXes in any way.
PLEXes are already hyperhyperhyperhyperhyperinflated in price, a lot of fault being the transition of plex just as a game time booster to a multi-use currency for character trades, multi character training, resculpts ect. It is the ridiculous high price of plex that is making eve more and more P2W, back when plexes were the more sensible price of 350m people buying them just for isk was a novelty, while now instead of subscribing another account a lot of players find they make a lot more isk just spending the RL money on plex rather than accounts and cashing the plex in - surely more active accounts, whether alts or unique players, is better for the game. PLEX should really be returned to what it originally was, an item redeemable only for gametime. Create another token for resculpts, trades, training ect. Leave plex alone. |
The Slayer
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
319
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:30:25 -
[196] - Quote
King Aires wrote:The Slayer wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar Have you any idea how insanely infeasible this is. You would need approximately 1500 plex injectors to get from 80mil to the 500mil you would need for max SP and in doing so you would be removing around 600,000,000 SP from the game. If they sell for 300mil a piece that is only 4.5 Trillion It is entirely possible some in game could do that, but they wouldn't need to because those guys probably already have 100mil + SP So they would really need less than 4 Trillion. Wow, MATHS 450bil You only need 450Bil
I mathed it wrong, it's actually 2800 injectors. And it'll take 1.4billion extracted SP to get one character to 500milsp.
Oh an importantly doing this once will make CCP -ú14,000 |
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:34:28 -
[197] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:
I mathed it wrong, it's actually 2800 injectors. And it'll take 1.4billion extracted SP to get one character to 500milsp.
Oh an importantly doing this once will make CCP -ú14,000
That is ok because including the Dev skills there is only 496mil possible skill points |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1383
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:34:56 -
[198] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:
I mathed it wrong, it's actually 2800 injectors. And it'll take 1.4billion extracted SP to get one character to 500milsp.
This just limits the number of ppl who can do it that's all
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Kairg
United Operations
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:36:26 -
[199] - Quote
Literally the worst idea ever. Can't believe they went ahead with this crap and then made it even worse than the original idea. And no, it's not like the bazaar as the characters on the bazaar have skills you can't change, whereas this idea you can choose to train up whatever you like instantly.
It's also irrelevant that the skill points have to be trained by somebody else first, as to the buyer it's just skill points on demand. As PLEX = isk, this is skill points for real money. Hello micro transactions that were promised never to be implemented.
Didn't I read that most of the CSM were against this? I guess their opinion doesn't matter then.
This is just a big middle finger to all the committed 2003/4 players. |
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
759
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:36:53 -
[200] - Quote
Magic Park wrote:i hope you won't allow extracting SP from the starting skillset? If that would be the case the following plan is probably broken.
1. Create new character with about 400k SP 2. Remap 3. Train for 2 days to get up to 500k SP 4. Extract 500k SP 5. Transfer injector to another toon. 6. Biomass 7. Goto 1
With this method you would be able to extract 15 full injectors in a month. Can't extract unless you have 5,500,000 SP.
|
|
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:38:04 -
[201] - Quote
Quote:One last thing here: we are making some big improvements to the UI for allocating skillpoints but I donGÇÖt have a screenshot of that for you just yet.
Many people want to clean up their skill sheets via this method. Disclaimer: I am one of them. So, if skillpoints are reduced to zero for any given skill, will there be an option in this great new UI to
- extract the skillbook (yay!)
- OR 'forget' the skill itself (still ok)
- OR are we left with a husk of level zero skills (meh)
The last option would be worst imho as it also would prevent unlearning any further requisite skill(point)s.
TLDR: CCP, please allow us to extract or forget any skills at level 0. |
Jackie Fisher
syrkos technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
504
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:41:19 -
[202] - Quote
How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost?
Fear God and Thread Nought
|
The Slayer
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
320
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:41:34 -
[203] - Quote
Today I learned there are a bunch of OCD/Autistic EVE players who need "clean" skillsheets for some reason. |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
83
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:44:19 -
[204] - Quote
Stupidity reigns.
True, nothing lasts forever.
Thanks for all the fish.
7o
|
Asuka Solo
Instant Annihilation Northern Army
3010
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:44:20 -
[205] - Quote
I feel like the only thing that's not yet for sale in this game is the player....his time and money is clearly not a problem.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
|
Adroc Legoose
School of Mabon Guardians of the Morrigan
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:44:32 -
[206] - Quote
Could they at least limit this in the same way skill remaps are currently? start with 2 available skill inject uses. Gain one a year, after that. Otherwise, your character's cranium explodes.
Buying all the T1 laser crystals for monument tickling now. |
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:45:17 -
[207] - Quote
Oh CCP, how many brenivin's did that take you?
|
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
Please add a skill transformator as well.
It frees skill points of a certain skill at the same speed at which you would gain points. |
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:48:15 -
[209] - Quote
CCP Cognac wrote: As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0.
This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).
This is the opposite of what many people have been asking.
Save yourself the extra work on 'changes to skill training' and simply allow people to discard skills at zero.
Why not give us that option?!
|
Adroc Legoose
School of Mabon Guardians of the Morrigan
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:50:13 -
[210] - Quote
Jon Hellguard wrote:Oh CCP, how many brenivin's did that take you?
RIP "skilltraining completed"-feelings.
Those dings will be some much less meaningful now that daddy's credit card can make someone else's dings sound like an alarm going off. ;-; |
|
Vabanaz Arjar
Damned Nebula Privateers
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:51:06 -
[211] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:I feel like the only thing that's not yet for sale in this game is the player....his time and money is clearly not a problem.
With all the datamining they already do it's just a matter of time until they start selling their playerbase, too. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3007
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:51:33 -
[212] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why? Never character selling costs plex and so gives them money
But isnt this new system planned to generate more moniez?
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
|
MR Spleen
Instant Annihilation Northern Army
36
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:52:36 -
[213] - Quote
So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is. |
Ben Ishikela
66
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:54:41 -
[214] - Quote
Was about time that the already existing "black-market" of SP gets legal and fair.
Remove JumpFreighters/CloakHauler/CloakTrick and make a new T2Freighter(mjd&LotsOfCargo&moreTank, but no JumpDrive). Because we need more opportunities for piracy, escorts and decentralised economy! ...also Convoys.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3737
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:54:48 -
[215] - Quote
On the entire "cash out unwanted SP, or SP on a training alt" The process would be: Use ISK to buy PLEX. Break up PLEX into AUR. Use AUR to buy Skill extractors. Extract the SP, making Skill injectors. Sell the Skill injectors for ISK.
The question being: Will you end up with more ISK than you had to begin with? My guess is Yes. If not, very few will do this process. Why do it if you will not make ISK? The only reason is if you have unused AUR laying about.
So, if very few are making Skill injectors, their price will rise until its reasonably profitable to make them. Which means it will be reasonably profitable to make them.
It's the same way with the current character bazaar. Its more profitable to use all the PLEX needed to sell and transfer a character than the base value of the PLEX.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1387
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:55:01 -
[216] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why? Never character selling costs plex and so gives them money But isnt this new system planned to generate more moniez?
Yes but now they can get it from both
Also the bazaar is needed to lower the number of iunregulated sails
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3007
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:55:21 -
[217] - Quote
Annia Aurel wrote:CCP Cognac wrote: As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0.
This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).
This is the opposite of what many people have been asking. Save yourself the extra work on 'changes to skill training' and simply allow people to discard skills at zero. Why not give us that option?! Maybe because you paid for them. If they would do that, people would rage that they are being ripped off of ISK, or even better, they would rage and demand recompensation.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2312
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:58:16 -
[218] - Quote
MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. You could already buy anything in Eve with RL money, thanks to selling PLEX on the open market, so I fail to see the problem here.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 18:59:42 -
[219] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Today I learned there are a bunch of OCD/Autistic EVE players who need "clean" skillsheets for some reason. confirmed |
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:00:40 -
[220] - Quote
Renfus wrote: All we need are skillpoint remaps.. maybe available every 2 years +- or purchase from CCP..
+1
The dream case would be, at the cost of, say, 2 PLEX, all skillbooks get ejected to hangar, and all skillpoints go to unallocated. End of story. |
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2622
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:01:35 -
[221] - Quote
Excellent. I'm very glad that the diminishing returns scale has shifted. This version is much better.
And February release! Good job CCP.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3007
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:02:18 -
[222] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why? Never character selling costs plex and so gives them money But isnt this new system planned to generate more moniez? Yes but now they can get it from both Also the bazaar is needed to lower the number of iunregulated sails But they can still do that. to see the effect on sales.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
|
Adroc Legoose
School of Mabon Guardians of the Morrigan
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:02:32 -
[223] - Quote
MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Can we split any hairs here where this can be dismissed. I see none. Absolutely nothing is sacred from pay to win now. -Character Bazaar -Character Renaming -Plex -> isk -now this the last straw. The last thing that could not be fixed by throwing money at CCP, your character's current skill level.
Anything separating us from pay to win is now gone. |
Mr Grape Drink
Sugar - Water - Purple The Mutiny
80
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:03:14 -
[224] - Quote
King Aires wrote:The Slayer wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Querns wrote:IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote: 3 noob will be able to credit card insta titan instead of buying a char
They can already do this, via the Character Bazaar. But they can use this to credit card to all V's something you can't do with the bazaar Have you any idea how insanely infeasible this is. You would need approximately 1500 plex injectors to get from 80mil to the 500mil you would need for max SP and in doing so you would be removing around 600,000,000 SP from the game. If they sell for 300mil a piece that is only 4.5 Trillion It is entirely possible some in game could do that, but they wouldn't need to because those guys probably already have 100mil + SP So they would really need less than 4 Trillion. Wow, MATHS 450bil You only need 450Bil
You're all bad at math. To get to 500M Sp from 80M SP would take 420M SP or 420,000,000 SP /150,000 per injector = 2800 Injectors. The amount of SP wiped from the game would be 500,000 - 150,000 = 350,000. 350,000 * 2800 injectors = 980M SP .
Using the random pulled from ass number of 300M each, with 840B you can get from 80-500M SP.
Plex go for about 1.2 bil each. Thats 700 plex to do this if paid entirely in plex. Thats about $10,500 to max from 80-500M SP. Now if we assume 300M each, that means you could get 4x extractors per plex with 0 profit. I don't see that happening, but lets roll with that. $10,500/4 = $2625 to buy all the extractors needed. So with $13,125 and the equivalent of 2 perfect characters worth of SP removed from the game you could infact perfect a character. Assuming 300M for each injector.
At about 2,664,000 SP per month (2700 SP/Hr) with perfect remap and implants and 1.2B per month of game time. You're looking at about 450 ISK/SP or 225M per 500k SP. Which after the cost of the extractor could put it right around the 300M each mark, assuming the extractor isn't some insane cost.
Practical? No. Possible? Certainly.
End note. I think we need to add another upper tier somewhere!
|
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:03:21 -
[225] - Quote
Aphatasis wrote:CCPLEASE(!!!) let us removed non trained skills after removing all Skillpoints!!
Got about 170mil SP in total but there are these sins u make in very youth days when u train things like "Advanced Small Ship Construction" cause u found the skill or bought it cause u could train it, but weeks later u realized, it was ****. Have 272k SP in Production total, and only skilled "Industry V" for flying Jump-Freighter und Cloaky Haulers.
Same with Mining, Resource Processing, Distribution Connection, some Corp Skills, etc
This.
And this.
And this.
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:03:56 -
[226] - Quote
MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer |
Estelie Heyan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:04:36 -
[227] - Quote
MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. You're an idiot and should probably stop posting forever. You could buy any amount of isk for many years thanks to plex. You could buy any character that can do anything thanks to plex (bazaar). You could buy a titan and titan pilot on your first day thanks to plex.
People do this and die horribly in lowsec to rekking crew. All this does is add a little customization and control over your skill sheet. I dont see anyone raging over plex everyone loves it. This will be the same once you get off your pay-to-win hobby horse and unstrap your tinfoil hat.
CCP pay no attention to ignorant haters this is a great feature and reasonable people love it. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3329
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:04:45 -
[228] - Quote
Sad day, it has been a fun ride CCP, I'm out.
And no you cant have my stuff.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Princess Honneamise
55
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:07:53 -
[229] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Amanda Rekenwhith wrote:My question is this:
It says points can be extracted if the character has 5,000,000 or more SP. Does this mean I can't milk an alt down to zero? If he has 5.8 million SP, only one million can be extracted? Or since he had 5,000,000+ at one point I can extract him to nothing? You can never go below 5 Million SP. So to extract SP from a character they will need to have at least 5.5 million SP.
It is the same extracting SP from a RANK 1 skill or a RANK 8 skill ?
thx.
EVE MOONS PROJECT
http://eve-moons.com
The EVE MOONS PROJECT is the most complete and accurate moons database for Eve Online
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1387
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:08:30 -
[230] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer
No I'm upset that I can only afford a subscription and am now at a very big disadvantage to some one woth daddies credit card
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:10:48 -
[231] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer No I'm upset that I can only afford a subscription and am now at a very big disadvantage to some one woth daddies credit card You already were bud. If they bought a high sp character and a links alt. I cannot fathom how dumb people can be that they dont realize we have been buying, selling and trading sp for years. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1387
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:10:54 -
[232] - Quote
Estelie Heyan wrote:MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. You're an idiot and should probably stop posting forever. You could buy any amount of isk for many years thanks to plex. You could buy any character that can do anything thanks to plex (bazaar). You could buy a titan and titan pilot on your first day thanks to plex. People do this and die horribly in lowsec to rekking crew. All this does is add a little customization and control over your skill sheet. I dont see anyone raging over plex everyone loves it. This will be the same once you get off your pay-to-win hobby horse and unstrap your tinfoil hat. CCP pay no attention to ignorant haters this is a great feature and reasonable people love it.
People have been raging over plex since it was announced
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Estelie Heyan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:12:34 -
[233] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:People have been raging over plex since it was announced Then they should probably unsub and go play a korean grinder if thats a more pure gaming experience. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1387
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:12:46 -
[234] - Quote
Alexxei wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:MR Spleen wrote:So I'm sure there was a dev that said at fanfest they weren't bringing in pay to win a few years ago well I think he lied!
It is now possible for people to buy isk legally by purchasing plex's with RL money which can be sold for isk and will now be able to purchase skill points as well as ships using real money.
If this isn't pay to win then I'm not sure what is.
Oh and I see the higher sp players also get screwed over again ispite possibly many years of loyal game play and large amounts of rl money handed over to ccp. i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer No I'm upset that I can only afford a subscription and am now at a very big disadvantage to some one woth daddies credit card You already were bud. If they bought a high sp character and a links alt. I cannot fathom how dumb people can be that they dont realize we have been buying, selling and trading sp for years.
But again that was far more limiting
Just because a poor mechanic exits doesn't mean arbitrary one should be added
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:12:54 -
[235] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Annia Aurel wrote:CCP Cognac wrote: As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0.
[Please] allow people to discard skills at zero. Why not give us that option?! Maybe because you paid for them. If they would do that, people would rage that they are being ripped off of ISK, or even better, they would rage and demand recompensation.
Well, it should be an OPTION. Not automatic. All that is needed is a button that says 'unlearn skill'.
Hell, people have been asking for this for years, even without the (new) opportunity to extract skillpoints beforehand.
I would be perfectly fine with an option as above to forget a skill without any recompensation of any kind, no skillbook, no skillpoints.
The Slayer wrote:Today I learned there are a bunch of OCD/Autistic EVE players who need "clean" skillsheets for some reason.
Obviously :-)
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1387
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:13:38 -
[236] - Quote
Estelie Heyan wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:People have been raging over plex since it was announced Then they should probably unsub and go play a korean grinder if thats a more pure gaming experience.
I can dislike something in a game but still enjoy the game. ...
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Estelie Heyan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:19:21 -
[237] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Estelie Heyan wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:People have been raging over plex since it was announced Then they should probably unsub and go play a korean grinder if thats a more pure gaming experience. I can dislike something in a game but still enjoy the game. ... If you dont like it dont use it. If you lose your 1v1 at the sun then get good at eve and dont blame sp trading or daddy's credit card. |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
267
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:19:39 -
[238] - Quote
Awesome change!
@lunettelulu7
|
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:19:44 -
[239] - Quote
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added |
Hulk Miner
White Horse Incorporated
41
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:21:40 -
[240] - Quote
CCP Cognac wrote:[quote=Mai Khumm]
As of now there are no plans to remove skill books when extraction takes you to 0.
This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).
I was looking forward to getting rid of some skills no doubt along with a lot of other long term players from my skill sheet, make the OCD eve community a little happier and remove the skill from the skill sheet when transferred into an injector.
|
|
Mindseamstress
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
21
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:25:33 -
[241] - Quote
Having spent 13 ears in Eve I absolutely detest this idea. Didn't quite take it seriously at first glance as I thought this was making a mockery of Eve but yes... this is obviously being rolled out and again with an emphasis on boosting low SP character.
Rather than wrecking the sandbox yet again it would be nice to see work put into actually expanding the game. Stop tweaking. Stop the bad tweaks in particular. Start delivering more content. Thanks!
My two cents.
|
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas DARKNESS.
85
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:26:29 -
[242] - Quote
CCP Directors / Devs,
You just kill my loyalty and pride. As I can change the game, the only choice for me is GÇ£stay and deal with itGÇ¥ or quit. So, I am out, with all my accounts. No, I will not give my stuffs to anyone (sorry guys). I will keep it as a trophy for all I conquer. Maybe, one day, I just come back. I was a good ride. Thank you for all these (almost) 12 years. I wish for Eve and the Company the best. Fly safe, but not so safe to not having fun.
Castelo
Best post ever!
|
Aetran Molou
Carbon Thirty-Two The Sinful Legion
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:28:30 -
[243] - Quote
Have injectors for individual skills been considered yet? This would solve many of the issues that have been brought up. Not only would individual skill injectors bring more complexity to this market, but it makes things more similar to the character bazaar: in order for a skill to be marketed, someone else would've had to buy, train, and extract that specific skill. The main advantage of this is that the skill market remains a closed bubble; this way if I sell all of the SP for Amarr Carrier V, it gets re-marketed as Amarr Carrier V to another player instead of just giving them a ton of raw SP that they can redistribute into anything they want, potentially allowing them to gain an unfair advantage. |
onefineday
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:29:45 -
[244] - Quote
I Like the idea, its grate but most of old players would pay if we could rearrange our skill points, as it was times then we trained skills unnecessary to characters do to the lack of knowledge or available data bases. So as this skill trading is a valid idea i still lose way to much skill points if i want to rearrange them just for my self without trading them on a market. Would it be possible just to add function nr 3 for people ho want to clean up their own accounts without giving them penalty this sort of function could be like once a year same as attribute rebalance or something like this i don't know seems really painful at this stage as loses are way to big and not really worth wile. |
Joshen Aultrelios
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:30:38 -
[245] - Quote
I don't have any particular qualms with the idea, as despite the cries of "pay to win" the SP will typically be reductive of the overall pool of SP, and it will allow players in the 2-3y range catch up in small niche roles they may have been curious about but unwilling to devote time towards. However, I do believe this will draw into even sharper focus the need for a re-balance on attributes and remapping, as having a SP farmer (something in a dedicated skill map with +5s training L5 rigging skills over and over) starts to look really necessary if you're on a bad remap, particularly in the 5-50mil SP range, which is where lots of first year players will find themselves. The struggle to manage gaining necessary support skills while trying to get into fun ships is probably the hardest part of the first year in EVE (I'm approx. 90d out from the point, as a matter of fact; watching my planned SP farmer crush my main in skilling up is pretty rough), and while this SP change is certainly a nice sop, it doesn't address the greater issue.
I am aware that CCP has mentioned this issue and (presumably) are working on it, and I realize this may be out of the purview of both this particular thread and the developer group associated with this change, but how hard would it be to include a change like bimonthly (i.e., every other month) skill remaps or something as well in order to act as a stop-gap until a better system can be laid in place? While I certainly plan on using these skill injectors to correct my newbie skill up mistakes, it is more than a little frustrating that my "mistakes" are not ones of choosing things I didn't like, but ones of needing things across so many attributes I could not possibly skill them efficiently, thus falling behind a dedicated skill mapper because I wanted to play now rather than later. |
Estelie Heyan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:33:22 -
[246] - Quote
Hulk Miner wrote:I was looking forward to getting rid of some skills no doubt along with a lot of other long term players from my skill sheet, make the OCD eve community a little happier and remove the skill from the skill sheet when transferred into an injector
|
Agemnia Auhman
Auhman Project Heavy Industrial Division
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:34:23 -
[247] - Quote
''We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, ''
I am amazed at this rather 'economical truth' as Mr Cameron would put it, surely it was also abundantly clear that as many if not more players were pretty unhappy with the decision to even bring it to the table let alone implement it. I don't really mind what happens with skill trading, but please don't selectively choose which feedback you want to take and that which you ignore and pretend wasn't said.
My main Concern is not in skill trading but the fact that EVE online is becoming a Cash Cow for Valkyrie's budget, a game which may be awesome, but is not EVE Online, will be separate to eve online and because of the way VR works will hinge not on the quality of the final game, but whether or not VR gaming will take off in the way many people want it to. Skins, renaming toons, Skill trading, all of this seems a very good way to get a big injection of cash without actually changing anything.
I may be totally wrong, but this is really what it seems like CCP are doing. Please don't let EVE online fade away into a substandard game because you are concentrating on the possibility of another game being good. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:38:36 -
[248] - Quote
Aetran Molou wrote:Have injectors for individual skills been considered yet? This would solve many of the issues that have been brought up. Not only would individual skill injectors bring more complexity to this market, but it makes things more similar to the character bazaar: in order for a skill to be marketed, someone else would've had to buy, train, and extract that specific skill. The main advantage of this is that the skill market remains a closed bubble; this way if I sell all of the SP for Amarr Carrier V, it gets re-marketed as Amarr Carrier V to another player instead of just giving them a ton of raw SP that they can redistribute into anything they want, potentially allowing them to gain an unfair advantage.
Probably doesnt bring in enough money. |
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
863
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:43:28 -
[249] - Quote
Querns wrote:Julien Brellier wrote:Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day. Considering the SP being passed around has to come from players training the skills at the normal rate, how is this any more "pay-to-win" than the character bazaar?
let say you have lot of isk to buy skill points, i bet there is lot of people who are willing to buy that sp for chars with over 80m sp TO MAKE CHAR WITH ALL LEVEL 5, not because they need but just because they can.
so i bet new players are not going to get it after all. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
621
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:43:35 -
[250] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change.
The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted.
This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players.
Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not.
But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way. |
|
Estelie Heyan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:46:57 -
[251] - Quote
Agemnia Auhman wrote:My main Concern is not in skill trading but the fact that EVE online is becoming a Cash Cow for Valkyrie's budget, a game which may be awesome, but is not EVE Online Hi hello. If you like EVE Online then you should like CCP hf. You should also like for CCP to make boatloads of money and be financially viable.
Its good for them and good for us as players. The market has changed many times over the years and companies that dont change with it cease to exist.
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
98
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:49:01 -
[252] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change. The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted. This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players. Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not. But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way.
That isn't how this works.
There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target.
So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board. |
Obidiah Kane
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
34
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:53:30 -
[253] - Quote
The Undiscovered Country...the old and the unimaginative fear change, the control freaks and egocentric loners fight it to the bitter end...but when it comes to history, the Motherland, they are always the first forgotten. In this instance they are so blind with rage that they don't even understand the reality of what they are railing against. If any existing player sees this as a threat...well, some one needs to remind them its a computer game....and a business - only playable if its making money and retaining and expanding its pipeline.
Thus, this game needs new players - for both content and its future, to stay and pay, and these new players need to feel like they have a chance and have options rather than just be bullied by some self entitled 'I have been here longer than you' neckbeard. It will change the landscape of the game, for sure, but for better or worse is utterly unknown at the moment.
Keep exploring all avenues CCP, keep trying stuff on for size - you provide an utterly unique niche product to a very few intelligent adults, most of whom are very grateful for your efforts to ensure both your own and our futures in New Eden. Good luck with this.
|
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:55:04 -
[254] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. High sp players dont need to buy these, high sp players will be creating these for those who wish to inject some sp. I have a subcap pilot, a carrier/dread pilot and a supercap pilot. Why would I need to buy or inject sp?
It seems to me like angry nerds are equating sp with skill or some kind of insurmountable advantage. Skilled players and players who know what skills do and also the rock-paper-scissors nature of ship balancing will roll right over someone who just whipped out a wallet trying to buy an advantage.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
828
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:55:38 -
[255] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options... Current: "Hey Tommy, you can't fly a HAC yet, but here is an alternative tech1 ship with tech1 items you can fly and still come along, and when you CAN fly that HAC, you will have a sense of accomplishment from the time you put in as well as how you had to learn which skills to train. Future: "Who is Tommy? Oh yea, that guy we gave some skills to that got bored within a week because everything was handed to him, thus preventing him from developing any sense of accomplishment or ownership in the game. I heard he's playing World of Warships now". Some people (including some at CCP) don't really understand the draw of this game, now do they?
this is mainly because most of CCP employees weren't around at the very beginning of the game and don't really understand the "learning curve" most of the player base have gone through ... an example of this is the removal of the learning skills them selves they removed those skills with no consultation with the player base .Sadly it appears to me that this "new crop" of CCp employees that work there appear to come in with this "ive got a really innovative idea that we should implement " without really understanding the culture that has developed in the community over the decades .... PS 140 million SP character adding his tuppence worth .
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:55:44 -
[256] - Quote
King Aires wrote:
There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target.
So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
Being a high SP (213m) player myself, i dont want to see this implemented at all, but if is to be implemented, i would rather it be used by new player up to 20m SP and capped at 20m SP. There is no reason really why a higher SP character would need this.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
622
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:57:03 -
[257] - Quote
King Aires wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change. The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted. This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players. Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not. But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way. That isn't how this works. There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target. So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board. No, you don't get it. Read my comment more closely.
High SP players - with deep ISK wallets - have no reason to ever extract SP. If they need really need more SP immediately, they can buy the injectors which other players are creating and selling on market.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2622
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 19:58:51 -
[258] - Quote
CCPls character renaming token with recorded name history. No reason not to do this now.
Obviously not for this magnificently named character.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:00:02 -
[259] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vibiana wrote: ... something ... it is amazing how many people with strong opinions on this subject don't know the character bazar exists
Not as amazing as how goons really love this. Hi skill-farming!
This is not comparable at all to character bazar. This is just micropay-to-own and another money machine for CCP.
The fact that goons - who seem to be hired by CCP to promote the thing - like the idea overly much, is a good sign that it will dumb EVE further down, and leave it closer to being just another ordinary piece of commodity-grinding ****.
Now, to be fair, I understand why goons love this. Their idea of EVE has always been about exactly what CCP is trying to commoditize - The Easy Win. As in easy-scam, easy-gank, easy-sabotaging any playstyle that is not their own. Which CCP really digs, because it makes EVE so 'dark' and 'hard' and 'HTFU', and go buy yourself some skills to cope, as of soon. It is important to realize that this symbiosis between CCP and goons has its roots in the fact that the nerds in Reykiavik long so much for the acceptance and recognition from the hip folks in Goonswarm that they will do anything to achieve it.
A fundamental quality of EVE has always been the common feeling of achievement, because we have all had to do hard time. The long time-consuming progression through skills necessary to slowly rise in power and to gradually open the game up. CCP now seems focused on removing all the elements of this game that made it stand out and stick together - all the real challenge in game and now also out-of game. Insta-bingo being the truly pathetic goal.
Oh and the piece of spin in the dev blog, trying to smooth over the sale... wow folks, we're really surprised how much you want this change... It stinks!! But cheap spin and pay-to-win sort of goes perfectly hand in hand. Actually, I think we might be looking at the exit-scenario, in which CCP now has to produce a marketable revenue structure to match the founders' aspirations in a forthcomming acquisition of CCP.
EvilweaselFinance wrote: I think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer
I think you are right. And what's your point, goonie?
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
100
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:04:02 -
[260] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:King Aires wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change. The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted. This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players. Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not. But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way. That isn't how this works. There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target. So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board. No, you don't get it. Read my comment more closely. High SP players - with deep ISK wallets - have no reason to ever extract SP. If they need really need more SP immediately, they can buy the injectors which other players are creating and selling on market.
You don't get it.
Extractors take 500k sp, each and every time Injectors give 150k sp to the high skilled player, or 500k to the newb.
The only place sp can come from is +5mil sp players
So I don't think you understandhow this works. |
|
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:10:44 -
[261] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Being a high SP (213m) player myself, i dont want to see this implemented at all, but if is to be implemented, i would rather it be used by new player up to 20m SP and capped at 20m SP. There is no reason really why a higher SP character would need this That SP has to come from somewhere. There will not be any injectors on the market until someone rips some skills out their head. These things do not create SP they only redistribute. |
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas DARKNESS.
88
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:10:50 -
[262] - Quote
jason hill wrote:this is mainly because most of CCP employees weren't around at the very beginning of the game and don't really understand the "learning curve" most of the player base have gone through ... an example of this is the removal of the learning skills them selves they removed those skills with no consultation with the player base .Sadly it appears to me that this "new crop" of CCp employees that work there appear to come in with this "ive got a really innovative idea that we should implement " without really understanding the culture that has developed in the community over the decades
YES! THE TRUTH!
The old makers of EVE are gone. The old devs are gone. The one who really care for the game healthier. The current Directors / Devs only think in money making. I understand that cash is important, but kill the game in the process to get money is not good.
It was never explained why CCP Devs chars was changed from Jove ones to common ordinary ones. In addition, most of the player base will never understand the importance of that. Most people do not even understand my indignation with that change. Why? Read the quote.
Here was the true eve: http://imgur.com/kk44y40 . Among others MIA.
Best post ever!
|
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
307
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:11:40 -
[263] - Quote
King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers
It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development.
What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not?
Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XI
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
Freedom fighters, unite with Chao3
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
622
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:11:48 -
[264] - Quote
Alexxei wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. High sp players dont need to buy these, high sp players will be creating these for those who wish to inject some sp. I have a subcap pilot, a carrier/dread pilot and a supercap pilot. Why would I need to buy or inject sp? Depends on your answers to the following questions: How much ISK do you have in your wallet? How many PLEX, ships and shinies do you already have stockpiled? What else do you need to spend ISK on?
Most high SP players know that SP actually equates with "game time", not "win". So, given an overloaded wallet and nothing else to buy, you will most likely buy SP - to inject in your main, just to tweak up a few final skills a bit faster (like those weapon specialization skills to V) or to skill up yet-another-alt faster. Buying game time is always a good investment (see PLEX). |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
830
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:12:52 -
[265] - Quote
so im thinking this is P2W by the back door ? what a novel way of really pissing off the player base when we have expressly said we do not want this model !
I played a crappy little kindle game on my way to work ...and got chatting to an alliance leader in this kindle game and he let slip that over the space of eight months he had spent over $ 1200 ......
I quit my account as soon as I got to work ! |
Jektal
Embers of Virtue
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:14:33 -
[266] - Quote
The big difference between this and the character bazaar is that this has no cap and can be used by a high-SP deep-pocketed player to just continue to accelerate their dominance.
If there was a SP cap on this so it could only be used by players under ~30m SP then it might benefit new players, but only if they're willing to drop down more $$ early on (making any new players *not* willing to put down the cash left behind, discouraging new players). |
Jasem Ormand
Altruism. Triggerkittens
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:17:43 -
[267] - Quote
I'm new player, can I buy my way to gain SP as much as a 10 year old player via PLEX? |
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers Fidelas Constans
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:18:06 -
[268] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Can a player remove skill points from any skill?
For example, I have Caldari Carrier to level 5. But the prerequisite is Battleship level 5, can I remove my Battleship skills and still be able to fly a Carrier?
Also, if I remove skill points from...lets say Gallente Frigate, so there's 0 SP there, can I remove the skill? If so, do I get the skillbook back?
The screenshot in the blog showed the Resource Reprocessing skills as an example of skillpoint trading. All the individual ore Reprocessing skills were trained up to Level 5, while the Reprocessing skill itself (which is one of the pre-requisites for gaining all those skills) was locked.
In other words, if you have skills trained that require a pre-requisite level of another skill, you cannot remove skill points from said skill. I'm not sure how that will affect things, since a player normally cannot inject a certain skill at all until they reach its pre-requisite level. So being able to take skillpoints from skills that are pre-requisite to another one would have to require a re-fund of the skillbook.
But assuming no skillbook refunds are possible, any skillpoints removed have to be shaved off from the top of the tree, from the looks of things. Unless skill-book refunds are made possible by skill trading, no one will actually be in danger of inadvertently crippling their capabilities if they use the Skill injector on too many skills.
On the other hand, it also means you cannot completely transfer a set of skills you don't use anymore; you'll always have the branches of skills directly related to and pre-requisite to the one you take skills from.
NOTE: Battleship level 3 is pre-requisite for a Carrier. So assuming that you haven't bought Covert Ops or Marauder skills and injected them, you could conceivably take skills from Caldari Battleship down to level 3, at which point it would lock because you have a branch of skills that require that specific level as a pre-requisite. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6917
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:19:09 -
[269] - Quote
Alexxei wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. High sp players dont need to buy these, high sp players will be creating these for those who wish to inject some sp. I have a subcap pilot, a carrier/dread pilot and a supercap pilot. Why would I need to buy or inject sp? Apparently maxing out your SP score is what counts.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:22:46 -
[270] - Quote
I didn't really agree with this at first, and the lower the discussion went on the more I thought it wasn't a good idea. From the get-go this blog was BS. The negativity wasn't normal EVE loathing. Across the board it was deemed pretty unfavorable. There is a purpose and reason to the skills and the wait. If someone screws up, they screwed up. In a game where you are told everything you do has repercussion somewhere, somehow, so should skills. The long wait is to make sure you have the actual game skills to advance to high game play. Letting every John and Mary buy some skills off dead alts from people just increases how many u ready people will be doing stupid things. Plus there is always potential for abuse from EVE rich and RL rich people. |
|
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
98
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:27:47 -
[271] - Quote
Bad idea. If you want to help new players, give them more start SP and a (free) multi-month Cerebral Accelerator.
Skill Injectors will probably turn into another "gold" item. Hoarded by the space rich as gold reserve, like PLEX, and the players who really need it, the new players, cant access it because its too expensive. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2314
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:32:02 -
[272] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:High SP players - with deep ISK wallets
This is a bad assumption.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6917
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:32:17 -
[273] - Quote
Ah plex, so great apparently these gold cards are stored in the fort knox that is your jita 4-4 hangar.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Alexxei
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:33:20 -
[274] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Alexxei wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. High sp players dont need to buy these, high sp players will be creating these for those who wish to inject some sp. I have a subcap pilot, a carrier/dread pilot and a supercap pilot. Why would I need to buy or inject sp? Apparently maxing out your SP score is what counts. Yeah im really gonna take my gobs of isk and buy injectors to max out drone and gun specs V to further my dominance over the newbro
Guys I have 140m sp theres nothing worth spending isk on for training. I toss oddball and specs V into the Q just so it doesnt sit dormant. Bad arguements are bad. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2315
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:35:52 -
[275] - Quote
Jasem Ormand wrote:I'm new player, can I buy my way to gain SP as much as a 10 year old player via PLEX? You can do it right now, via the character bazaar. You've been able to do it for the better part of a decade. Have fun!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6917
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:37:47 -
[276] - Quote
No this is different because it is new.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6917
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:39:10 -
[277] - Quote
No actually it's more like regdate bragging, the idea that your character of *regdate* cannot be beaten by character of *lateregdate*
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
830
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:40:26 -
[278] - Quote
Jasem Ormand wrote:I'm new player, can I buy my way to gain SP as much as a 10 year old player via PLEX?
THIS ! can I buy enough skills that I can fly a TITAN please ....with absaloutly no experience of actually flying the damned thing ! and the pain and mental hardship of actualy training for it !
|
MAS0RAKSH
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:40:56 -
[279] - Quote
640k [Faction] Cerebral Stimulator 768k Sleeper/Cosmos 1024k Drifter Cerebral Stimulator
Drops in loot, sites, anoms, etc... but doesn't work on players over 200mil SP
Let those drop organically for 3 weeks, then announce a 512k SP implant on NES from the implant npc corps. |
Crazy Kitten
Blaidd Drwg Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:41:21 -
[280] - Quote
when i first read the announcement, i was thinking: yay! i can now make up on the time i was unsubbed! then i started reading the forum, and that changed my mind a lot. now i agree with those thinking it's pay to win, and i also think it'll diminish the feeling of accomplishment when i reach a skill training goal. however, i'm enough of a realist to see that this is coming, no matter what i like. i would like to make a request, though, that maybe would help migitate the damage i think this feature will cause in the long term:
please add 2 new stats to a character sheet (similar to medals optionally public with default to being so): # sp injected # sp extracted
imo, that'd allow ppl to judge what level of threat a character is passing through the system, similar to the the age. if the #sp stats are hidden, they have taken steps to do so, so they are not a noob and therefore default to being a threat. it'd also allow puricans to show off their sp worthiness, as they never injected skills. also, it'd allow corps to judge if someone has skill or a credit card when they apply for the corporation - and it'd allow ppl to "undo the damage" by extracting the same amount of sp as they injected, getting back on the regular training track. they'd only have borrowed the skills, and paid a hefty isk fee for that. |
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:44:22 -
[281] - Quote
Alexxei wrote:Aerious wrote:Being a high SP (213m) player myself, i dont want to see this implemented at all, but if is to be implemented, i would rather it be used by new player up to 20m SP and capped at 20m SP. There is no reason really why a higher SP character would need this That SP has to come from somewhere. There will not be any injectors on the market until someone rips some skills out their head. These things do not create SP they only redistribute.
I think you missed my point, i know where the sp comes from( i read both the dev blogs), all i am saying is, if it is to be implemented it should be capped at 20m sp.
It's taken me nearly 12 years to reach 213m, allowing some rich kid to come along, purchase thousands of -ú/$ of these injectors and be 200m in a few days is totally unfair and just goes to show how greedy CCPGäó can be. |
JonnyPew
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:44:50 -
[282] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Sad day, it has been a fun ride CCP, I'm out.
And no you cant have my stuff. I don't want your stuff. I want your SP. May I have it?
EVE Online is my hobby.
http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
|
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
40
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:48:31 -
[283] - Quote
Saisin wrote:King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development. What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not? Please tell, how is it good for everyone? |
Mance Sevrin
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:49:49 -
[284] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Alexxei wrote:Aerious wrote:Being a high SP (213m) player myself, i dont want to see this implemented at all, but if is to be implemented, i would rather it be used by new player up to 20m SP and capped at 20m SP. There is no reason really why a higher SP character would need this That SP has to come from somewhere. There will not be any injectors on the market until someone rips some skills out their head. These things do not create SP they only redistribute. I think you missed my point, i know where the sp comes from( i read both the dev blogs), all i am saying is, if it is to be implemented it should be capped at 20m sp. It's taken me nearly 12 years to reach 213m, allowing some rich kid to come along, purchase thousands of -ú/$ of these injectors and be 200m in a few days is totally unfair and just goes to show how greedy CCPGäó can be.
Why does it matter when I can buy a 213 mil sp character on the forums right now? |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3335
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:50:34 -
[285] - Quote
JonnyPew wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Sad day, it has been a fun ride CCP, I'm out.
And no you cant have my stuff. I don't want your stuff. I want your SP. May I have it? I would rather biomass than sell the sp I have accumulated.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
MAS0RAKSH
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:52:11 -
[286] - Quote
yeah, reallocating your own SP on a toon is helluva lot better than selling them. my first toon was dec 2004 and by 2008 had a lot in industry and sci that I wish I could have put into better tank, gank or piloting.
tbh, unscrewing newbros and allowing you to only remap your own toon's Sp would be great
|
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc. Haven.
63
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:52:38 -
[287] - Quote
This is a sad sad feature and only 2 types of people like it. Either those that don't see that it's a pay-to-win feature and those that are waiting to exploit it.
|
JonnyPew
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:53:03 -
[288] - Quote
Obidiah Kane wrote:The Undiscovered Country...the old and the unimaginative fear change, the control freaks and egocentric loners fight it to the bitter end...but when it comes to history, the Motherland, they are always the first forgotten. In this instance they are so blind with rage that they don't even understand the reality of what they are railing against. If any existing player sees this as a threat...well, some one needs to remind them its a computer game....and a business - only playable if its making money and retaining and expanding its pipeline.
Thus, this game needs new players - for both content and its future, to stay and pay, and these new players need to feel like they have a chance and have options rather than just be bullied by some self entitled 'I have been here longer than you' neckbeard. It will change the landscape of the game, for sure, but for better or worse is utterly unknown at the moment.
Keep exploring all avenues CCP, keep trying stuff on for size - you provide an utterly unique niche product to a very few intelligent adults, most of whom are very grateful for your efforts to ensure both your own and our futures in New Eden. Good luck with this.
Well said, Obidiah o7
EVE Online is my hobby.
http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
|
Onslaughtor
Reikoku Pandemic Legion
161
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:53:30 -
[289] - Quote
Great change, all the people complaining will be back. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1794
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:58:21 -
[290] - Quote
Quote:The injector items will give a different amount of skillpoints depending on what your characterGÇÖs skillpoint total is when you use the item, according to the following scale:
char's total skillpoints = free unallocated skillpoints plus already trained skillpoints?
I hope so, otherwise I will create a new char and add 50M SP to the pool and allocate them later. |
|
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1794
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 20:59:18 -
[291] - Quote
*edit* sorry double |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:00:43 -
[292] - Quote
I can easily see people setting up multiple alts to siphon sp go their mains. We already have players with a dozen alts without this mechanic, now they pay extra to train faster effectively. This will cause a huge influx of high sp players relatively quickly, as so many people sell plex or have easy isk like moons or incursions. This will cause more capital pilots as that's what most players aim towards, which will increase the capital blob problem ccp is trying to fix.
I'm not a fan of this, but if it absolutely has to be implemented the skill gained should be less than the original amount from the last devblog, I'm baffled that the sp you can receive was actually TRIPLED for high sp characters, this is completely game breaking and a blatant attempt at microtransactions as the skill injectors will be sold with aurum and many people will be buying lots of those. I'm seriously disappointed in ccp for not only going forward with this, but actually making it even easier to abuse, and this comes from a player that would benefit from this recent change. Please don't put this in the game, and if you have to then severely reduce the sp gained to less farm inciting levels |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
101
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:00:45 -
[293] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:[quote=EvilweaselFinance] Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not.
But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way. Of course its pay to win. Imagine being a new player, who has to PvP in frigates, with many important and useful skills at low level or completly missing. You will die a lot. You will be cannon fodder for T3 destroyers.
Or you spend 60Gé¼ on 3 PLEX and use the ISK to buy skill injectors and a few Svipuls + fits. Now you can perfectly fly and fit the king of small ship combat. Sure, you cant buy PvP experience, BUT you will have a huge advantage over the other new players who are still stuck in their badly skilled Rifters. |
Oxide Ammar
231
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:03:43 -
[294] - Quote
There should not be any diminshing return when I extract my wasted SP and inject them into same character, I worked for these SP and I should not be punished for rearranging my skills to focus on any aspect of the game and just before anyone say I'll keep rearranging my SP poool ereyday morning...please no one is gonna pay fortune every time to do that, I'd better buy another alt than doing this ****. On the other hand I agree on the diminshing return for buying SP from the market.
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
|
Maraner
The Executioners Shadow Cartel
333
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:04:22 -
[295] - Quote
I HATE this idea.
The way you can use real money to SP jump ahead is pay to progress or whatever you want to call it. TBH I worry that it is the start of some form of creeping cancer of further microtransactions that will come into the game.
Having said that people should be able to do with their characters what they wish, sell them on the market etc but this seems somehow different. Not only have you already paid to gain the SP in the first place but now you have to pay to unlock it to trade it.
Imagine you bought a car, wanted to sell it but to do so you had to pay the guy you bought it from again for permission to sell it, that is my primary concern. Clearly despite a massive threadnaught that was in no way even remotely positive on this coming into the game CCP is going to pursue it.
That is also worrisome. I'm not going to scream -4 subs or gg CCP so long for the good times, but this does honestly make me a bit sad and concerned that it will be the thin end of the wedge.
On the plus side there will be some people out there that will inject their way into ships that they will have little idea on how to fly, I look forward to meeting as many of you as possible.
Lastly for those of you that strongly disagree with this coming into the game, hold on to your SP, don't cash out.
|
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1795
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:07:10 -
[296] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote: Of course its pay to win. Imagine being a new player, who has to PvP in frigates, with many important and useful skills at low level or completly missing. You will die a lot. You will be cannon fodder for T3 destroyers.
Or you spend 60Gé¼ on 3 PLEX and use the ISK to buy skill injectors and a few Svipuls + fits. Now you can perfectly fly and fit the king of small ship combat. Sure, you cant buy PvP experience, BUT you will have a huge advantage over the other new players who are still stuck in their badly skilled Rifters.
You can buy a char for 3 PLEX on char bazaar already :) |
JillChilla
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:12:10 -
[297] - Quote
Mance Sevrin wrote:Aerious wrote:Alexxei wrote:Aerious wrote:Being a high SP (213m) player myself, i dont want to see this implemented at all, but if is to be implemented, i would rather it be used by new player up to 20m SP and capped at 20m SP. There is no reason really why a higher SP character would need this That SP has to come from somewhere. There will not be any injectors on the market until someone rips some skills out their head. These things do not create SP they only redistribute. I think you missed my point, i know where the sp comes from( i read both the dev blogs), all i am saying is, if it is to be implemented it should be capped at 20m sp. It's taken me nearly 12 years to reach 213m, allowing some rich kid to come along, purchase thousands of -ú/$ of these injectors and be 200m in a few days is totally unfair and just goes to show how greedy CCPGäó can be. Why does it matter when I can buy a 213 mil sp character on the forums right now?
The time u need to form a 213 mil SP charakter is the difference. U won't be able to buy if no one would have been playing 12 Years...
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
197
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:19:52 -
[298] - Quote
Credit-cards online... Mulcanis' Law in full effect mode.
-1 still don't support this change. |
Trancefo Delcroix
Cosmic Origin
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:20:32 -
[299] - Quote
This is a verry sad day. As promised, I quit and won't look back.
It's been a great 6,5 years... |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:20:50 -
[300] - Quote
I saw this dev blog come up on Facebook. I know that costs aren't set in stone yet, but what is to prevent someone from making a new character for the soul purpose of SP farming? Simply remap stats for a set of skills that you can train and siphon off SP as needed.
Another concern is the already stupid isk cost of PLEX. Why introduce something that might actually be more valuable than PLEX (bought for real cash) when prices on PLEX are already getting totally out of hand? I don't buy PLEX, but I know more than a few players who would stop playing if PLEX prices get much higher. These injectors/extractors costing real money is only going to push PLEX prices higher by adding yet more competition for players' PLEX cash.
As for this being pay-to-win... meh, the character bazaar is just as bad and has CCP's stamp of approval. I'm glad that the SP soft cap is 80mil (would be nice if it was lower). I've been playing (paying for at least one account) for almost 10 years now. If the cap was much higher, I'd feel like CCP finally has stopped caring about the bitter vets. In a game where age means experience, the lines are getting more blurry. I'm not sure how I feel about that. |
|
Pistonbroke
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:22:01 -
[301] - Quote
I can't wait to see who will be the first of the EvE super-rich who gets every skill in eve to V, using injectors and screw the cost.
Of course it will happen, E-peens must be unzipped, released and swung around.
Of course CCP can release ever more ship variants, each requiring another skill, to fly and probably yet another skill to use its "special module" That way, even older players will feel the need to use these items to be able to fly the FOTM / new doctrine whilst it's still cancer hot. Should work quite well with much more frequent updates..........
Like Nuclear weapons, SPs can be viewed as something of an arms race, and as such, I'd expect that even those who don't like the idea, assuming that they can afford them, will make sure they are not left behind.
Milk that cash-cow CCP, while it lasts, the competitions games are catching up fast, and the players finally have somewhere else to go when you push too far, and take too much.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2316
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:23:12 -
[302] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:I saw this dev blog come up on Facebook. I know that costs aren't set in stone yet, but what is to prevent someone from making a new character for the soul purpose of SP farming? Simply remap stats for a set of skills that you can train and siphon off SP as needed.
I hate to break it to you, but this is not only already happening, but has happened for years. I, myself, have two of my accounts sustaining themselves, long-term, by training alts specifically for sale on the Character Bazaar. One of the most reliable money makers in Eve was doing this with Power of Two accounts. Skill extractors change nothing about this process except how quickly you can realize a profit.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Baron Agamemnon
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:24:25 -
[303] - Quote
I already got close to 130M SP, so I got all I want anyways. Good for new players I guess.
EVE has been "pay to win" since plex :P |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:25:44 -
[304] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:I saw this dev blog come up on Facebook. I know that costs aren't set in stone yet, but what is to prevent someone from making a new character for the soul purpose of SP farming? Simply remap stats for a set of skills that you can train and siphon off SP as needed.
I hate to break it to you, but this is not only already happening, but has happened for years. I, myself, have two of my accounts sustaining themselves, long-term, by training alts specifically for sale on the Character Bazaar. One of the most reliable money makers in Eve was doing this with Power of Two accounts. Skill extractors change nothing about this process except how quickly you can realize a profit.
Oh I know it's been going on for years. Hence my comment about the Bazaar. It's the other things I commented on that I'm worried about. |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1979
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:27:31 -
[305] - Quote
Soltys wrote:Hell yes.
.....or better, keep it simple and equally enjoyable for every character:
0 - +inf: 5% penalty (475,000)
And the question everyone has - what kind of AUR price for the extractor are you aiming at ?
Agree. |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
831
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:33:47 -
[306] - Quote
Right that's it ....ccp himller I'm calling you out !!! Have you been window shopping for -ú1000 jeans AGAIN !!!
Are you after another "burn Nita" have you learned nothing over the years !! Your starting to make the little baby Jesus cry ! Listen( once to the bloody player base) in |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1856
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:37:19 -
[307] - Quote
Interesting that the 80m SP+ bracket is getting a much greater return than originally proposed.
Still eagerly awaiting AUR cost estimation at the least to complete the picture. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6918
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:39:15 -
[308] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Interesting that the 80m SP+ bracket is getting a much greater return than originally proposed.
Still eagerly awaiting AUR cost estimation at the least to complete the picture. Interesting is ... definitely one way to put it.
It's quite a jump eh.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:40:25 -
[309] - Quote
Theres a few other things that are bad about this besides the pay to win feature.
Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game. Its a major achievement to move up a ship class, even going from frig to dessie was ecxiting as hell as a newbro, if this becomes a reality, that sense of achievement will be seriously mitigated. It is not nearly as effective to buy your way into a ship as it is to have to wait for it, and to work for it, and to sit on the edge of your seat as the skill queue ticks down the last few minutes. This is one of the best parts of eve, finally earning the right to use new things. With this gone moving up a class or using something new has no more sense of achievement, it is simply something you bought.
How about a counter-thought. Make it so that each character has a set number of skill injectors they can use. You can still extract as much as you want and sell it for isk, but you can only use a certain amount of injectors per character. Say 10 for this scenario, though that would likely not be the actual number. This way, people can buy sp, but not enough to make them skip the beginning of the game as new players, nor would older players be able to inject enough to buy a more elite character. Even if the numbers stay the same as now, with minimum of 150k sp per character, and use 10 max injectors as a baseline number, thats stil 1.5 million sp that you didnt have to wait for. Thats roughly 20 days of no-implant training right there, which is a significant amount of time in Eve, but not enough to break the game and not enough to skyrocket High SP players even higher, and you could even increase the numbers somewhat without it being too bad,
This would mitigate, if not eliminate, almost every concern voiced by outraged players. It would still allow selling SP for isk, and it would still allow instant training, just it would eliminate most of the abusiveness of it. It could even be lore friendly, something along the lines of the brain can only handle so much stress before being permanently damaged.
Please consider it, or something similar, this can be implemented without being a bad thing, it just needs to be done right, and unlimited free sp for rich players is a very bad thing |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2316
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:45:13 -
[310] - Quote
jason hill wrote:Right that's it ....ccp himller I'm calling you out !!! Have you been window shopping for -ú1000 jeans AGAIN !!! Are you after another "burn jita" have you learned nothing over the years !! Your starting to make the little baby Jesus cry ! Listen( for once to the bloody player base) I don't think you understand what Burn Jita actually is.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:45:22 -
[311] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Interesting that the 80m SP+ bracket is getting a much greater return than originally proposed.
Still eagerly awaiting AUR cost estimation at the least to complete the picture. Interesting is ... definitely one way to put it. It's quite a jump eh. Indeed, prior numbers put this at a solid no for me on any character.
New numbers? Situationally it seems like it might be worthwhile, like those forgotten or suddenly useful off map skills that may have been omitted for whatever reason.
Of course that could change back to a no for me if we see some action of the idea of removing attributes in the near future. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
95
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:45:23 -
[312] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:
Please consider it, or something similar, this can be implemented without being a bad thing, it just needs to be done right, and unlimited free sp for rich players is a very bad thing
QFT. This would also help reduce some of the market abuse that I'm concerned about. Adoption would be slower since the demand could be so potentially curbed. This would allow a much smoother transition that would affect PLEX much less severely. |
Grismar
Vertigo Corp
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:45:48 -
[313] - Quote
I like the overall idea... but:
I think CCP is missing a major opportunity here, by going for generic skill points instead of dedicated skill points for a specific skill. Two or three actually.
An opportunity for a rich and deep trade in skill points, where the rarity of skill points is decided by what people choose and chose to invest in before. People farming specific skills just because they do well in the market right now, people hoarding specific skills, etc. A huge opportunity for interesting economy and trade.
Secondly, an opportunity for control and balance. Both for CCP itself and corporations and alliances. With skill specific extractors, it would be possible to prevent new skills spreading like wildfire and it would be possible to put the breaks on people all chasing that one flavor of the month skill. Corporations would be able to provide their fledgling pilots with specific skills instead of just heaps of skill points that can be spent on anything.
Thirdly an (I think) important opportunity to put an early brake on a part of the community that will start flocking to whatever the flavor of the month is based on balance changes in the game. At any one time, specific ships and weapons will be favored over others (sometimes rightfully so, sometimes not so much). But with the option to re-skill (because that's what you get at a price here) to any skill you like, everyone can flock to the same skill, immediately unlocking that flavor of the month ship.
In conclusion: I like being able to buy skills someone else grew, but I don't like the generic skill points. I think they detract from the impact of player choice, because choices made in the past no longer affect the available skills of the future. The game becomes more generic with generic skill points, where they could have deepened it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2316
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:47:05 -
[314] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:52:38 -
[315] - Quote
Querns wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists.
Well, leave it at that, i've bought and sold many a character this way for profit, the only reason CCPGäó are smiling at skill trading is they will be able to sell the skill extractor on the new eden store and make more money, why not raise the monthly subscription and put this stupid idea to bed. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4498
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:53:00 -
[316] - Quote
Now someone tell me with a straight face that EVE is doing well financially.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6918
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:54:47 -
[317] - Quote
Querns wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists. Damnit you remind me that by the time I had my titan character trained up, it would've been faster and cheaper to buy one off the bazaar
because people fore firesaling them or something? Like, suddenly people didn't feel the need to join a big superblob, wonder what happened...
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:55:31 -
[318] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Querns wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists. Well, leave it at that, i've bought and sold many a character this way for profit, the only reason CCPGäó are smiling at skill trading is they will be able to sell the skill extractor on the new eden store and make more money, why not raise the monthly subscription and put this stupid idea to bed. Maybe because raising the cost for everyone might have a greater consequence than raising the cost to play for those farming SP to sell, is one reason I can think of. The proposition has no effect on my cost as a subbed player or potential TSP buyer.
|
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
597
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:58:29 -
[319] - Quote
Quote:it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits Nice convenient hearing skill.
Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:58:40 -
[320] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Now someone tell me with a straight face that EVE is doing well financially. Best inkling we have with all things in mind suggests that eve itself IS doing well financially. CCP had some losses to take from WOD, dust is doings something and the other projects are just getting off the ground so there is that, but Eve seems fine. |
|
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 21:58:57 -
[321] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive!
They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy.
I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more sp. Quicker than you had. Hurts, doesn't it?
Pathetic. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2316
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:00:16 -
[322] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Querns wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists. Well, leave it at that, i've bought and sold many a character this way for profit, the only reason CCPGäó are smiling at skill trading is they will be able to sell the skill extractor on the new eden store and make more money, why not raise the monthly subscription and put this stupid idea to bed. Uh, what?
The only way I can think of how this makes sense is if you're a career character trader who's angry about his business taking a hit.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1890
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:01:56 -
[323] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:X Minx wrote:Sincerely really happy that CCP is implementing this. The present skill system needs a boost and Eve being such a long standing game can result in a skill tree that 'looks' like a grind too far as a new capsuleer.
Kudos for following through. One of the best things about eve is that its one of the few games left that doesn't cater to instant gratification
I have to say that 'following through' describes this mechanism perfectly... |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:02:39 -
[324] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:Querns wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists. Well, leave it at that, i've bought and sold many a character this way for profit, the only reason CCPGäó are smiling at skill trading is they will be able to sell the skill extractor on the new eden store and make more money, why not raise the monthly subscription and put this stupid idea to bed. Uh, what? The only way I can think of how this makes sense is if you're a career character trader who's angry about his business taking a hit.
LOL im doing fine on my jump freighter alts, profit! |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2316
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:04:20 -
[325] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:Querns wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way. When we get into capitals, unless you are laser focused, it comes from years of dedication to this game.
I had my first capital capable pilot and ship before I was more than a year old in the game. The Character Bazaar exists. Well, leave it at that, i've bought and sold many a character this way for profit, the only reason CCPGäó are smiling at skill trading is they will be able to sell the skill extractor on the new eden store and make more money, why not raise the monthly subscription and put this stupid idea to bed. Uh, what? The only way I can think of how this makes sense is if you're a career character trader who's angry about his business taking a hit. LOL im doing fine on my jump freighter alts, profit! Nailed it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
95
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:05:09 -
[326] - Quote
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive! They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy. I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it? Pathetic.
As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market. |
Valkin Mordirc
1837
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:06:59 -
[327] - Quote
If anyone watches Totalbiscuit's YT channel he just recently did a video on 5 Gaming related sayings he hates, Pay To Win was one of them. And made a fairly solid point that a lot of P2W games are more along the lines of Pay to Skip. Like someone not wanting to wait 20 days to have Medium blasters to V or something.
Honestly if it was P2W CCP would release Aur only ships that had stupidly powerful bonuses. Like a Diemost with a Role bonus to Scram ranges or a Moa with a 20% Shield hit point bonus.
And just like the Bazaar, all the SP is trained on the character, the only difference is you don't have to buy the toon itself for the SP, just the SP.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
dravenski
Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:09:10 -
[328] - Quote
Too many negatives in the old thread, so they started new one with CCP propaganda at work...
This is a perfect idea for alliance leaders who get bil isk per month for every system they rent. They will only buy and buy more skill injectors ( yes, maybe that will cost 40 bil per million SPs, this is pocket cash for big alliances ).
Nor that I care much, because I have started selling my chars and closing my accounts since the supercap nerf series, but I think this is the worst idea of all. Players that are still in this game because they are clinging to their hard earned skills will have no reason to stay anymore.
Besides, why bother to pay subscription when you can experience 75% of all the best this game offers with an one month trial account ?
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
832
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:09:54 -
[329] - Quote
And they are going to make a bucket load off valk they are first to market with valk.... I know this cos I'm one of them ...then they throw this into the mix ...meh |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6919
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:10:34 -
[330] - Quote
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive! They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy. I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more sp. Quicker than you had. Hurts, doesn't it? Pathetic. Ooo snap.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
|
Valkin Mordirc
1837
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:13:14 -
[331] - Quote
Also,
If I say I want to take 500mil SP from an 80mil+ SP alt, but suddenly I decided I don't want to that, but I've already extracted the SP. Is there a refund system that will allow the SP go back into the Skills I extracted? Or is it a once you do it, there's no going back?
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Max Kolonko
WATAHA. Fidelas Constans
585
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:13:31 -
[332] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:CCP, when do you plan to ban character selling?
I presume character name change service is not talked about anywhere, because we all know why? Never character selling costs plex and so gives them money
They will now get money from extractors, sooo....
Read and support:
Don't mess with OUR WH's
What is Your stance on WH stuff?
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
801
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:13:40 -
[333] - Quote
Ralph Drake wrote:Please, CCP, let us be able to remove 0-skill-points skills from our sheet. I don't want the skill book back or anything, I am just obsessive. This whole proposal relies on existing players selling their SP - You just keep retraining those skills to sell on over and over - Or the proposal falls flat on its face in 3 months when all have sold off unwanted mining skills.
Face it, there is a finite amount of "unwanted" SP - So unless tsp's are good isk spinners (nice profits to be made) the available SP will soon deplete.
One question for Devs though; I know your mockup in the blog is just that but you are turning skills that are prerequisites for other skills into a TSP - Is this to be a thing? You can sell prerequisite skills?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:17:22 -
[334] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:They will now get money from extractors, sooo.... That somehow means they would get rid of one avenue for giving them money why?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:19:28 -
[335] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:One question for Devs though; I know your mockup in the blog is just that but you are turning skills that are prerequisites for other skills into a TSP - Is this to be a thing? You can sell prerequisite skills? Prereq skills can not be extracted. |
Kisloved Algaert
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:19:56 -
[336] - Quote
CCP
You can't just change the core concept of the game that deals with people's sense of value that they associate with the game.
You seriously think that mechanic would work back in 2003 making eve online what it is now? If you had made something like that back then,then you would have be in trouble by 2005 and surely be bankrupt by the emergance of P2W, F2P nonsense.
And let's not even argue about whether it is TECHNICALLY P2W. I personally do not care if it is P2W TO THE LETTER of the term. That's just idiotic arguing about that. You are dealing with sense of value people put in the game and you don't even understand what you are doing, CCP.
It's all just calculations and statistics to you.
The world around it harsh, all those P2W, F2P trying to make a buck...
Good luck CCP! |
Soleil Fournier
Ultimatum. The Bastion
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:21:46 -
[337] - Quote
Please give us the option to delete unwanted skills from our head. Maybe if the skill has 0 points allocated to it, there's a delete button to press.
Also, would like to see a cap on number of skill points a player can add. This was a popular request in the original feedback thread that the blog doesn't address.
Add time-limited skill resets for people that don't want to buy/sell their skill points but want to reallocate their own skills instead. Thank you. |
Tamazaki
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:25:49 -
[338] - Quote
A Ingus wrote:Stupidity reigns. True, nothing lasts forever. Thanks for all the fish. 7o
Drama queen much?
You won't leave |
shaun 27
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:27:13 -
[339] - Quote
Well by the sounds of it they had this planned whatever the community said. I mean feb release wow so quick how long did it take to sort 0.0 oh wait its still not done most of its still blue and it didn't involve -ú$-ú$.
Gl all.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:32:23 -
[340] - Quote
shaun 27 wrote:Well by the sounds of it they had this planned whatever the community said. I mean feb release wow so quick how long did it take to sort 0.0 oh wait its still not done most of its still blue and it didn't involve -ú$-ú$.
Gl all. How reasonable is it to expect CCP to design a game that both rewards cooperation and at the same time expect it to some how break up stable coalitions in the first place?
I mean really, selling SP is easy while breaking up coalitions is more like rewiring the human brain.
|
|
Jugular Vein
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:32:27 -
[341] - Quote
Accounts that have had any kind of ban should be unable to extract skills, just as they are currently unable to be sold/transferred via the character bazaar. |
Memphis Baas
941
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:34:07 -
[342] - Quote
Training a "do it all" combat pilot:
Newbie (4 months): 5 million SP, has a number of support skills at 3, and 1 race's ships to battlecruiser.
Year 1: 20 million SP, support, T1 weapon, and T1 ship skills at 4 (int/per) Year 2: 40 million SP, prerequisites for T2 ships trained to 5 (int/mem) Year 3: 60 million SP, T2 weapons, a nice selection of T2 ships finally trained (per/wil)
Year 4: 80 million SP, prerequisites for carrier/dread, 1 race's dread/carrier trained to 4 (int/per) Year 5: 100 million SP, take all the important skills for carrier/dread to 5 (jump range, T2 siege/triage, fuel, etc.) (int/mem) Year 6: 120 million SP, multiple races' carriers / dreads, or whatever (per/wil)
There's a major breakpoint at 60 million SP / 3 years, where we are either done with T2 subcaps, or we went straight for capital ships and have 60 million SP in those, so would you please consider changing the second breakpoint from 50 million SP to 60 million SP? To match the point where we shift focus, and also the most likely "re-spec" point.
Also, veterans will buy the skill injectors as soon as they're made available on the market; prices are pretty much going to skyrocket way past what a newbie can afford. Meaning that true newbies will never be able to take advantage of this system. Would you consider implementing a donation bin similar to plex4good where we can donate injectors and have a reasonable expectation that they'll be given to actual newbies, rather than being market-speculated / overpriced? |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3304
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:36:35 -
[343] - Quote
Do I like it? Still no.
Am I leaving because of that? Nope, I can adapt.
If you decide that you cannot adapt to changing game conditions please remember to donate your things to Operation Magic School Bus
Adapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable.
To me? It just feels wrong. But I will survive and play my own way. I don't like the character bazarre, never made me quit. Just don't like it.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:38:11 -
[344] - Quote
DmitryEKT wrote:Luna Bowman wrote:Even as a newbie, i see a problem. The problem is called insta-alts. Be it gank, market, mining, anything. CCP, any stance on how this impacts the game ? doesn't affect it in any way, because character bazaar already exists.
Ye. Now a new character can put a bazaar toon into the SP meat grinder and keep his old/new/preferred name/character. They will be bought for this very purpose now, and sold for parts. Gruesome and funny, in a very Eve way.
I am fine with this system, as it does not introduce or inject SP into the system. It rewards new players most and immediately puts to rest the argument of never being able to catch up or being forever less effective than the other guy 'that's been here longer'. It shifts SP from one place to another with diminishing returns. I can't see a way it can be gamed.
Well done, sirs. It has come at a vital time when we will be receiving many new players because of Valkyrie on the Oculus Rift.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:38:16 -
[345] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive! They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy. I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it? Pathetic. As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market.
I think you might confuse the post I was quoting with another post? Either way, that line I quoted really says it all.
|
Kisloved Algaert
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:44:12 -
[346] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: Adapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable.
But the game is not going to be changed. The attitude toward it is. It's like making chess a casino game. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
544
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:44:41 -
[347] - Quote
Would it be possible to get a list of which CSM members voiced support for SP-trading?
If this travesty is here to stay, at minimum, I'd like to make sure I'm voting for different candidates in 2016.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
96
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:46:27 -
[348] - Quote
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive! They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy. I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it? Pathetic. As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market. I think you might confuse the post I was quoting with another post? Either way, that line I quoted really says it all.
I wasn't confusing the post. I quoted the same post. What you quoted was the emotional "BUT WHY" from that guy. His idea may have been based around wanting to stomp noobs harder (I didn't get that feeling from his post), but the end result would make the system a bit more palatable for a lot of the bitter vets without harming the newbros wanting to catch up. It's further down in the post that you quoted. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
801
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:48:24 -
[349] - Quote
CCP Cognac wrote: This will mean that we will need to do some changes to skill training which will hopefully also allow you to inject skill books you don't have the prereqs instead of having to haul them around waiting for that prereq to finish(no promises this will be available on realease).
Damn.. more stuff removed from loot drops and loss mails.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Demica Diaz
SE-1
182
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:48:32 -
[350] - Quote
There are many games atm that are made to be hard and tedious until player swings his credit card and world is smiling again. I know CCP is not that type of company but EVE isnt exactly Hello Kitty Online. I really hope new bro wont see EVE Online as one of "those" games.
On the other. As somewhat older player I love feature to get rid of useless skills I trained. |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:53:08 -
[351] - Quote
Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?
My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-
$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots
$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200
My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum
Will it kill the the Character Bazaar ? All those carefully crafted characters based on precise training of queues may be worth buying from the bazaar but for the seller they are the same as any other meat Popsicle with the same number of skill points. After all why would you sell a toon at Bazaar prices when you could break it into injectors and make lots more ISK.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
832
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:54:30 -
[352] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:There are many games atm that are made to be hard and tedious until player swings his credit card and world is smiling again. I know CCP is not that type of company but EVE isnt exactly Hello Kitty Online. I really hope new bro wont see EVE Online as one of "those" games. On the other. As somewhat older player I love feature to get rid of useless skills I trained.
yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?
its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:55:11 -
[353] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?
My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-
$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots
$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200
My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum Why would the injector cost the same (actually more at peak training rate) as the SP?
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:55:49 -
[354] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
i would also like to know this as i have a some what extreme level of OCD with my skill sheet and seeing a bunch of lvl 0's would just not work for me. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:59:57 -
[355] - Quote
jason hill wrote:yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?
its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted. |
Jugular Vein
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:03:50 -
[356] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. i would also like to know this as i have a some what extreme level of OCD with my skill sheet and seeing a bunch of lvl 0's would just not work for me.
Conversely, I would like to inject skills that I don't have the prerequisites for which would mean having the skill at 0 in the sheet and unable to train it to 1 until the prereqs are met. |
Sturmwolke
676
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:09:03 -
[357] - Quote
Workable idea, but 5-50mil bracket 0.8 multiplier is set too high. Skill trading increases the pace of the game, the lower the bar the faster pace. The entirety of EVE isn't built for this pace. It's like trying to shoehorn a Porsche engine onto a horsecart. You might get away it short term, but long term is anyone's guess.
The bar for the 5-50mil bracket ought to be raised to ~0.5-0.67 to skew the the distribution more towards < 5mil SP chars. With the current posted rate, I'm guessing the distribution curve sits within the 5-50mil bracket - the penalty isn't big enough for players to think twice about. That said, the lack of granularity to the brackets is puzzling. 10mil (~6months training) and 20mil SPs (~1 year training) are fairly std milestone for a typical character and they've all been lumped under the 5-50mil bracket. The current scheme is too simplistic. You can do better than this.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
832
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:13:42 -
[358] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?
its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted.
well actually it does ... the learning skills as an example .....but we got recompensed for those particular ones . |
Erotisk Folkdans
Club Autism
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:15:17 -
[359] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive! They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy. I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more SP. Hurts, doesn't it? Pathetic. As I see it, the concerns are not about being able to grind noobs into dust. There are a couple of real concerns related to the market. I understand that you might not care about those concerns. But if you read the rest of that guy's post, newbros would still be able to catch up. The point of his post was to limit the damage this kind of a change could do to the market. I think you might confuse the post I was quoting with another post? Either way, that line I quoted really says it all. I wasn't confusing the post. I quoted the same post. What you quoted was the emotional "BUT WHY" from that guy. His idea may have been based around wanting to stomp noobs harder (I didn't get that feeling from his post), but the end result would make the system a bit more palatable for a lot of the bitter vets without harming the newbros wanting to catch up. It's further down in the post that you quoted.
Yeah I read it. I didn't agree with it and found the line I quoted pretty revealing. I'm not big fan of the "I had it hard so you must have it hard too"-thing.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
801
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:18:59 -
[360] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:DmitryEKT wrote:Luna Bowman wrote:Even as a newbie, i see a problem. The problem is called insta-alts. Be it gank, market, mining, anything. CCP, any stance on how this impacts the game ? doesn't affect it in any way, because character bazaar already exists. Ye. Now a new character can put a bazaar toon into the SP meat grinder and keep his old/new/preferred name/character. They will be bought for this very purpose now, and sold for parts. Gruesome and funny, in a very Eve way. I am fine with this system, as it does not introduce or inject SP into the system. It rewards new players most and immediately puts to rest the argument of never being able to catch up or being forever less effective than the other guy 'that's been here longer'. It shifts SP from one place to another with diminishing returns. I can't see a way it can be gamed. Well done, sirs. It has come at a vital time when we will be receiving many new players because of Valkyrie on the Oculus Rift. Is having an Eveonline subscription a prerequisite for playing Valkyrie on Occulus Rift?
You can't see how this system can be gamed? 1 account, 3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters specialized to suit your needs (even 3 X 80 mil SP chars is possible if you have the isk - Or $'s) - Never need to train again and can potentially fly everything from a T2 frigate to a Titan. Prospect sort of detracts from having 1 high skilled char, why would you bother when lower skilled specialized characters can be so easily created.
What happens to dual character training certificates now? Do they have their (Aurum) price reduced substantially to be viable alongside TSP's - Or will you need to pay for dual character training as well as TSP's if it is a second character on the same account you want to train?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:19:57 -
[361] - Quote
jason hill wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?
its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted. well actually it does ... the learning skills as an example .....but we got recompensed for those particular ones . Actually they don't since as you said, they were refunded. They are no longer a choice made under now irrelevant information. They are a choice that was removed, as opposed to those that remain, but were changed in some way.
|
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4939
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:21:31 -
[362] - Quote
Man we need a salt lick in this thread. The tears...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4500
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:21:55 -
[363] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Do I like it? Still no. Am I leaving because of that? Nope, I can adapt. If you decide that you cannot adapt to changing game conditions please remember to donate your things to Operation Magic School BusAdapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable. To me? It just feels wrong. But I will survive and play my own way. I don't like the character bazarre, never made me quit. Just don't like it. m
I don't think that nobody quits over it. But it's telling of how much CCP craves for revenue from EVE.
This is not how a job well done looks like, CCP.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Trancefo Delcroix
Cosmic Origin
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:24:26 -
[364] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Do I like it? Still no. Am I leaving because of that? Nope, I can adapt. If you decide that you cannot adapt to changing game conditions please remember to donate your things to Operation Magic School BusAdapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable. To me? It just feels wrong. But I will survive and play my own way. I don't like the character bazarre, never made me quit. Just don't like it. m
Mike,
A great leader is someone who holds true to his ideals, someone who sees the needs of the many and who exercices a degree of influence over others to make the mecessary changes happen.
Not someone who "feels wrong" and "doesn't like", not someone who accepts people mass quiting, not someone who adepts to the "changing rules" - read broken promises from CCP
So please either: 1) Stand up to CCP and step down from CSM temporarily 2) Admit you are not a real leader and step down from CSM permanently, or 3) Stay in CSM and admit you don't give a f* about the game
And that goes to the other majority in CSM who "feels wrong" but doesn't act like men.
My last act in this game? Shooting the monument in memorial for the days people stood up and CCP made a promise... |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
832
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:26:29 -
[365] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?
its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted. well actually it does ... the learning skills as an example .....but we got recompensed for those particular ones . Actually they don't since as you said, they were refunded. They are no longer a choice made under now irrelevant information. They are a choice that was removed, as opposed to those that remain, but were changed in some way.
still irrelevant ...as its still your choice to train any particular skill ..wether you utilise it or not is your choice due to your particular playing style ...personally im trained to dread pilot lvl 5 ..but have never used it ... but at the time it was a requirement of my particular corp ... ho hum .... im a carrier pilot ..
|
Kisloved Algaert
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:26:53 -
[366] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote: It shifts SP from one place to another with diminishing returns. I can't see a way it can be gamed.
1.Wrong. 2.More alts.
But statisitcally CCP is RIGHT. Majority of people will not abuse the system and market system will probably make it bearable, as well as this will bring more $ to the CCP.
What nobody seems to understand is that the game will be less interesting.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:27:50 -
[367] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Is having an Eveonline subscription a prerequisite for playing Valkyrie on Occulus Rift? No.
Sgt Ocker wrote:You can't see how this system can be gamed? 1 account, 3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters specialized to suit your needs (even 3 X 80 mil SP chars is possible if you have the isk - Or $'s) - Never need to train again and can potentially fly everything from a T2 frigate to a Titan. Prospect sort of detracts from having 1 high skilled char, why would you bother when lower skilled specialized characters can be so easily created. Why should you? So far as I'm aware the concept of having a single, highly trained character was more the result of what the skill system emphasized for efficient expansion for training alone. That sets aside the fact that the Bazaar mandated your character capacities be saparate.
Sgt Ocker wrote:What happens to dual character training certificates now? Do they have their (Aurum) price reduced substantially to be viable alongside TSP's - Or will you need to pay for dual character training as well as TSP's if it is a second character on the same account you want to train? How did you conclude they would be unviable as is in the first place? Your pricing in the other thread left them a better value as is. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3306
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:31:34 -
[368] - Quote
Trancefo Delcroix wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Do I like it? Still no. Am I leaving because of that? Nope, I can adapt. If you decide that you cannot adapt to changing game conditions please remember to donate your things to Operation Magic School BusAdapting to changing conditions and changing rules is a very strong part of this game but I understand if some find that the changes take us too far from the original intent and find the new game unpalatable. To me? It just feels wrong. But I will survive and play my own way. I don't like the character bazarre, never made me quit. Just don't like it. m Mike, A great leader is someone who holds true to his ideals, someone who sees the needs of the many and who exercices a degree of influence over others to make the mecessary changes happen. Not someone who "feels wrong" and "doesn't like", not someone who accepts people mass quiting, not someone who adepts to the "changing rules" - read broken promises from CCP So please either: 1) Stand up to CCP and step down from CSM temporarily 2) Admit you are not a real leader and step down from CSM permanently, or 3) Stay in CSM and admit you don't give a f* about the game And that goes to the other majority in CSM who "feels wrong" but doesn't act like men. My last act in this game? Shooting the monument in memorial for the days people stood up and CCP made a promise...
well, I do not see mass quitting, yet.
I am allowed to like or dislike things that CCP does. It does not change my standing with them.
Not quite sure where the broken rules comes in but I am sure they probably have, now and again.
Bottom line? They are stuck with me for another few months. This is NOT something I would quit the game over (as I said) nor is it so heinous that I would step down from the CSM. Don't like does not equate to quitting, for me. I would rather stay in and do what I can to control the fall.
Oh and one last thing. CSM are not supposed to be leaders but representatives of the players. That is a critical difference. I was elected by people who knew that I react honestly to things and tend to say what I think. That is what I am doing, here.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:32:22 -
[369] - Quote
jason hill wrote:still irrelevant ...as its still your choice to train any particular skill ..wether you utilise it or not is your choice due to your particular playing style ...personally im trained to dread pilot lvl 5 ..but have never used it ... but at the time it was a requirement of my particular corp ... ho hum .... im a carrier pilot .. You're not following. I'm not talking about skills someone told you to train, which BTW that sounds like I corp I'd never want to join, but rather skills that have either changed in function or prerequisite, or even skills that function the same primarily, but aren't needed for a particular playstyle due to game changes.
You can't argue an informed decision was made there, and your own choice to knowingly waste training time doesn't compare. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
546
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:35:51 -
[370] - Quote
Well Mike, can we at least know which CSM members supported SP-trading and DO like it? Because I, personally, can't vote for people to "represent" me if they and I have vastly different ideas of what this game is. Consequences are meaningless if you can erase your mistakes. This is not EVE. |
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3307
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:39:00 -
[371] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Well Mike, can we at least know which CSM members supported SP-trading and DO like it? Because I, personally, can't vote for people to "represent" me if they and I have vastly different ideas of what this game is. Consequences are meaningless if you can erase your mistakes. This is not EVE.
That would be a great question to take to the campaign threads. At the moment I am not even sure which CSM are rerunning and I will not speak for those that are. I tell you what i think. But then, I am not running for CSM XI so I doubt what I think matters to you.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Kisloved Algaert
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:39:53 -
[372] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: I am allowed to like or dislike things that CCP does. It does not change my standing with them.
You could resign in protest to send message to CCP. That would probably change your standing with them.
|
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:42:43 -
[373] - Quote
Soleil Fournier wrote:Please give us the option to delete unwanted skills from our head. Maybe if the skill has 0 points allocated to it, there's a delete button to press.
+1
Soleil Fournier wrote:Add time-limited skill resets for people that don't want to buy/sell their skill points but want to reallocate their own skills instead. Thank you.
+1 |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1038
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:52:52 -
[374] - Quote
Clearly I was being too optimistic when I thought the reason CCP stopped replying to the old thread was because they realized why this is such a bad idea. |
Big rEy
Navy reiNforcements
75
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 23:58:06 -
[375] - Quote
I am so stupid, I fail to see the problem with this implementation. Are you somehow afraid that someone who flies a incursus will kill you in a 1v1 because he got more skills than you in a branch that has nothing to do with the ship? Pretty sure it won't make a difference if both of you have decent skills. Are you somehow afraid that a +500 mil SP character will "win the game"? Or that he will be better somehow? Is this a game where the character will crush with his SP? Is this age of empire? Is this implementation p2w? Let's get plex out of the game then. And above all, how manny of us can actually afford to pay the amount required to get 500 mil sp? Or is this about the fact that people with billions of isk will be able to do just that? Well, I think people with that much isk, already have plenty of chars from bazaar.
You know...when I started this game, I got the chance to play in a c6 wh. You know what was the first thing I did? I was sitting somewhere in the wh system, a place that my corp mate made me warp, and all I did for a while was to press scan on dscan. You know why I did that? Because I was f***ing useless. I remember being on comms, and hear them doing things, killing sleepers, going in another hole and pew pew others. You know what I did back then? I was sitting on my couch, and I was listening, because that was the most I could f***ing do at the time. It took me some days to train salvaging and probing, days of frustration that I could not take part and could not play with my new friends in a new game that I chose to play. You know what was the most f***ed up thing of all? I had billions in my wallet and could not do sh*t with that. Back then, I wish I had this.
Now please shut your holster. This is progress. It will not break the game, It's just your ego that gets damaged. P.S. This is a SP sink. PS.S. CCP, can you please stop this plex violence? We all know that plex it's easy to get, but farming is something really boring in this game, work on PVE too when you can. Some can't afford, some won't buy plex. Milk us, we know that you need the money, but milk us gently, please. Thank you in advance.
I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
834
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:01:13 -
[376] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:still irrelevant ...as its still your choice to train any particular skill ..wether you utilise it or not is your choice due to your particular playing style ...personally im trained to dread pilot lvl 5 ..but have never used it ... but at the time it was a requirement of my particular corp ... ho hum .... im a carrier pilot .. You're not following. I'm not talking about skills someone told you to train, which BTW that sounds like I corp I'd never want to join, but rather skills that have either changed in function or prerequisite, or even skills that function the same primarily, but aren't needed for a particular playstyle due to game changes. You can't argue an informed decision was made there, and your own choice to knowingly waste training time doesn't compare.
lol ..I think your sort of missing my point and we are both getting off topic alas whatever skill you train is not essentially irrelevant . back in 2003/4 I elected to train all the E/W skills that were then available ...knowing full well that the only available ship at that particular time was the blackbird ...and tbh ...it was hopeless ...and everybody mocked me ...and lo and behold E/w all of a sudden ...was the next big thing ...and to a point still plays a semi major role in most fleet events ... so who was the mug ...me sitting on the already trained skills ..or those that thought they were worthless ... you decide .
I wont mention the miner2 snafu or the T20 situation as those events don't apply to this particular snafu...some peeps forget ...there are those of us that have been around ...for quite sometime |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:01:29 -
[377] - Quote
I like the idea but in my eyes its moving us closer to a Pay-to-Win model. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:06:08 -
[378] - Quote
jason hill wrote:lol ..I think your sort of missing my point and we are both getting off topic alas whatever skill you train is not essentially irrelevant . back in 2003/4 I elected to train all the E/W skills that were then available ...knowing full well that the only available ship at that particular time was the blackbird ...and tbh ...it was hopeless ...and everybody mocked me ...and lo and behold E/w all of a sudden ...was the next big thing ...and to a point still plays a semi major role in most fleet events ... so who was the mug ...me sitting on the already trained skills ..or those that thought they were worthless ... you decide . Still missing it, think less, unpopular function and more, what it does now isn't what it did when I trained it, IE: Advanced industry, formerly Material efficiency, a skill I would never have to lvl 5 had I known what was coming, but at the time I trained it I had no way of knowing.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
834
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:09:51 -
[379] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:lol ..I think your sort of missing my point and we are both getting off topic alas whatever skill you train is not essentially irrelevant . back in 2003/4 I elected to train all the E/W skills that were then available ...knowing full well that the only available ship at that particular time was the blackbird ...and tbh ...it was hopeless ...and everybody mocked me ...and lo and behold E/w all of a sudden ...was the next big thing ...and to a point still plays a semi major role in most fleet events ... so who was the mug ...me sitting on the already trained skills ..or those that thought they were worthless ... you decide . Still missing it, think less, unpopular function and more, what it does now isn't what it did when I trained it, IE: Advanced industry, formerly Material efficiency, a skill I would never have to lvl 5 had I known what was coming, but at the time I trained it I had no way of knowing.
wasn't that an "optional skill train" rather than a compulsory skill train ? .... that was your decision to train it .learning skill were ...compulsory
|
Arkady Romanov
Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation
643
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:14:10 -
[380] - Quote
Looking good CCP. Glad this is going ahead.
There are a couple of tweaks that I'd like to see.
Like others, I'd like to see the ability to delete or pull skills that get reduced to zero. Its totally an aesthetic thing though, not mission critical.
I'd also like it if it weren't possible to fill T3 subsystem skills using unallocated/bought SP. Its a personal thing, but I think the penalty of losing SP on T3 loss is diminished if you can just inject it back to V right away.
Additionally, I'd like if there was an initial stopper on injecting SP into new skills when they get introduced into the game for the first time. For example, if you introduce a new ship that requires a new skill, I don't think it should be possible to inject SP into that skill until a certain amount of time has passed. Ideally that time would be however long it would take to train that skill to V using +5 implants and a perfect attribute distribution. That would put the kibosh on people having perfect skills immediately when new things get introduced.
Again, its a personal thing, but I think they would be good adjustments.
Now for your next trick; price the extractors appropriately so that you have a genuine micro transaction that will be used and enjoyed, rather than a hilariously overpriced albatross that nobody except the idiotic or rich will use.
Whole Squid: Get Inked.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:14:30 -
[381] - Quote
jason hill wrote:wasn't that an "optional skill train" rather than a compulsory skill train ? .... that was your decision to train it .learning skill were ...compulsory Learning skills were optional, which is why not everyone got a 5m SP refund. At 3 mill on my oldest I had the highest return in the corp he was in at the time.
But if the argument is that these mechanics shouldn't exist because we made choices, then no, in some cases our SP is locked in choices we didn't actually make, but choices CCP made afterwards.
|
ArmyOfMe
Hull Breach. Outnumbered.
553
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:28:58 -
[382] - Quote
F U, this is even worse then the original idea
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
|
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:29:03 -
[383] - Quote
Mr Grape Drink[/quote wrote:
You're all bad at math. To get to 500M Sp from 80M SP would take 420M SP or 420,000,000 SP /150,000 per injector = 2800 Injectors. The amount of SP wiped from the game would be 500,000 - 150,000 = 350,000. 350,000 * 2800 injectors = 980M SP .
Using the random pulled from ass number of 300M each, with 840B you can get from 80-500M SP.
Plex go for about 1.2 bil each. Thats 700 plex to do this if paid entirely in plex. Thats about $10,500 to max from 80-500M SP. Now if we assume 300M each, that means you could get 4x extractors per plex with 0 profit. I don't see that happening, but lets roll with that. $10,500/4 = $2625 to buy all the extractors needed. So with $13,125 and the equivalent of 2 perfect characters worth of SP removed from the game you could infact perfect a character. Assuming 300M for each injector.
At about 1,944,000 SP per month (2700 SP/Hr) with perfect remap and implants and 1.2B per month of game time. You're looking at about 617 ISK/SP or 308M per 500k SP. Which after the cost of the extractor would probably put it between 400 and 500 mil per injector.
At 450 mil each its up to 1.26Trillion Isk or 1050 Plex or $15,700 + $3925 = $19,625
Practical? No. Possible? Certainly.
End note. I think we need to add another upper tier somewhere!
Okay, lets accept I could implant/remap and generate 1.9 mil SP per month. There is no incentive, at 300 mil an injector, for me to extract these at all. I'll generate a little more than the current cost of a PLEX (EXPECT THESE TO RISE- INVEST NOW!), but still have the cost of the aurum etc (so I might as well buy PLEX and sell into market, instead of making injectors). In short, to make this cost effective the price will be significantly higher. If it stayed at 300 mil an injector or thereabouts, we won't see clever SP farmers (just dumb ones that can't do maths).
Of course, if the cost of the injectors gets to a certain point, expect to see characters purchased from the Character bazaar for the express purpose of SP milking and selling. EXPECT TO SEE THE PRICE OF CHARACTERS increase also.
|
Faith Xavier
Eclipse Mariner
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:35:38 -
[384] - Quote
Large alliances will buy these up left and right, inflating the price and accumulating the most valuable resource in EVE: SP. Will those alliances then dump all that SP on their new recruits, who they don't know very well and who may or may not stick around? Or will they dump the SP on the alts of their senior members instead? I'd bet on the latter.
Perhaps I underestimate the market supply, but I believe these will be in low supply and high demand (read: SUPER EXPENSIVE), making them inaccessible to new players without a credit card. The power blocs will absorb most of the SP that makes it to the market while CCP makes a bit of cash. Those newbros who don't want to shell out money for PLEX (i.e. most of them) will continue training skills at the normal pace, and will be largely unaffected.
CCP makes money, big alliances get a tad stronger, and the new players (who this was supposedly going to help) don't see the change at all.
NOTE: I'm betting these Skill Injectors will be so expensive that the character bazaar will remain more efficient in terms of SP per dollar spent (unless they are doing away with the bazaar?). That will make the bazaar the better option for new players who want to skip the waiting, while Skill Injection is used by older players to reassign a few unwanted skills (or to add more, if they can afford it), or to bolster their alts. |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:38:02 -
[385] - Quote
Also, implement no benefit at all (ie, no SP gained for injecting) for characters with more than 80 mil SP. We don't need it.
My paltry 180+ mil SP has only taken me 10 years to gather together....all the effort and planning seems like a little waste of time now (like the training of learning skills!). However, this has been a passive benefit of playing after I learnt how to play EVE. I am going to start producing ships again, as I see the potential for a lot of inexperienced players in nice shinies :)
This change will make us older players richer
Thanks CCP! |
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
278
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:39:07 -
[386] - Quote
I do wonder if the majority of the people who are complaining are also the people who are butt-hurt that their character bazaar character farming setup is going to be obsolete after this change.
Just be wary CCP the complainers may actually not be legit.
Looking forward to this change ! As are the majority of people I fly with.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
|
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:39:31 -
[387] - Quote
Faith Xavier wrote:Large alliances will buy these up left and right, inflating the price and accumulating the most valuable resource in EVE: SP. Will those alliances then dump all that SP on their new recruits, who they don't know very well and who may or may not stick around? Or will they dump the SP on the alts of their senior members instead? I'd bet on the latter.
Perhaps I underestimate the market supply, but I believe these will be in low supply and high demand (read: SUPER EXPENSIVE), making them inaccessible to new players without a credit card. The power blocs will absorb most of the SP that makes it to the market while CCP makes a bit of cash. Those newbros who don't want to shell out money for PLEX (i.e. most of them) will continue training skills at the normal pace, and will be largely unaffected.
CCP makes money, big alliances get a tad stronger, and the new players (who this was supposedly going to help) don't see the change at all.
NOTE: I'm betting these Skill Injectors will be so expensive that the character bazaar will remain more efficient in terms of SP per dollar spent (unless they are doing away with the bazaar?). That will make the bazaar the better option for new players who want to skip the waiting, while Skill Injection is used by older players to reassign a few unwanted skills (or to add more, if they can afford it), or to bolster their alts.
No it won't...the characters will inflate in price, otherwise you could buy a cheap character on bazaar and extract all SP and sell for profit :) |
Faith Xavier
Eclipse Mariner
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:45:51 -
[388] - Quote
Arithron wrote:Faith Xavier wrote:Large alliances will buy these up left and right, inflating the price and accumulating the most valuable resource in EVE: SP. Will those alliances then dump all that SP on their new recruits, who they don't know very well and who may or may not stick around? Or will they dump the SP on the alts of their senior members instead? I'd bet on the latter.
Perhaps I underestimate the market supply, but I believe these will be in low supply and high demand (read: SUPER EXPENSIVE), making them inaccessible to new players without a credit card. The power blocs will absorb most of the SP that makes it to the market while CCP makes a bit of cash. Those newbros who don't want to shell out money for PLEX (i.e. most of them) will continue training skills at the normal pace, and will be largely unaffected.
CCP makes money, big alliances get a tad stronger, and the new players (who this was supposedly going to help) don't see the change at all.
NOTE: I'm betting these Skill Injectors will be so expensive that the character bazaar will remain more efficient in terms of SP per dollar spent (unless they are doing away with the bazaar?). That will make the bazaar the better option for new players who want to skip the waiting, while Skill Injection is used by older players to reassign a few unwanted skills (or to add more, if they can afford it), or to bolster their alts. No it won't...the characters will inflate in price, otherwise you could buy a cheap character on bazaar and extract all SP and sell for profit :)
Ah good point, so the two will normalize. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3310
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:48:28 -
[389] - Quote
Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
19
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:49:19 -
[390] - Quote
Yeah- expect to see PLEX and Character price hikes. Buy up injectors when markets flooded and hold for profits later
If you are an older character with iskies, you'll be making multiple 10's of bils for little effort. |
|
Tamazaki
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:51:57 -
[391] - Quote
Arkady Romanov wrote:Now for your next trick; price the extractors appropriately so that you have a genuine micro transaction that will be used and enjoyed, rather than a hilariously overpriced albatross that nobody except the idiotic or rich will use.
Yes! |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
19
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 00:52:41 -
[392] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m
Total waste of time and effort. Keep skills at 0 to remind players that a) they were once (or still are) a dickwad for training it in the first place and b) they are a dickwad for selling SP |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:15:05 -
[393] - Quote
Seriously, there should be no SP gain from injectors for 80mil+ SP
If you can't build a character that is a good pilot for 80mil+ SP, you shouldn't be playing.
I expect all diehard EVE players that have 80mil+ SP to agree with this idea, as they all play for the love of the game, as opposed to P2W right?
Or are there not many of us left with a sense of fair play? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5670
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:15:54 -
[394] - Quote
Even if it has already been suggested ...
CCPLEASE LET US DELETE SKILLS!
I don't want a skillbook refund. Just let me delete the dang skills. |
Charlie Corday
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:21:35 -
[395] - Quote
Pay to Win - another nail in Eve's coffin. |
Mance Sevrin
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:22:00 -
[396] - Quote
I REALLY would like to know the AUR cost for one of these extractors.
Also I hope a hard SP ceiling is placed on this . As much as I feel for the veterans plea, I care not , they can roll a new character if they want to take part. |
Rimstalker
Asteroid Central Guns-N-Roses
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:30:43 -
[397] - Quote
Man, how about instead of trying to nailed down a lot of stupid ideas on how to make this place more attractive, you focus more on making it a better game; something you are not really doing right now?
Witness, the more you try and make this game more appealing to a bunch of people who aren't here, the fewer people that actually show up. I would have thought you would have realized this at this point but apparently not.
Why don't you spend a couple of updates on fixing problems and glitches in your current system and get that nailed down and then spend some time and effort on adding new things.
Next, if you want to actually improve this place, why dont you listen to the CSM...bwahahahaha...I am just kidding so lets get to something more realistic; why don't you take a good look at some of the incredibly good ideas that many many many people have had over the years and sent in to you. You don't need to toss something out there and then see what people say, you should have boxes and folders of that already.
Of course this may go the way of ...walking around stations!...or any number of other items that we have heard of over the years.
Get a grip on reality and go find my slaves...I spilled some Quafe here and the strippers are late. |
BAWBAG74
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:42:04 -
[398] - Quote
I am not in agreement with MOST of this, and I'll explain below:
If CCP want to implement skill trading it should be for new players/ low skill point characters only to get them into the game. Not to have some rich character buy a **** ton of injectors to become even more elite.
The people who have put years into training, and countless $ on subscriptions should have some protection from people swooping an buying something, that until this discussion was "priceless" and many of you will say "well its not priceless as character trading exists" but your not seeing the bigger picture. Someone else put the time and $ into that character, AND those skills are separated for that character only....not added to you own.
I agree at this stage of the game it is hard to entice new players to play, so maybe instead of outlining diminishing returns for older/higher sp players, just do away with that part totally. OR put in some limit per year (like remapping limitations) where people with say over 100 mil sp's, they can only add so many sp's per year and then effectively max out, and cant use any until a certain date.
some cap needs to be put into place somehow that allows the newer playing to get to a certain point faster, if they are willing to spend the isk or $$ I guess, but stop the super rich form become skill point gods.
I don't what else it is about this, but the thought of just insta training a skill just takes away from the game. getting skills to 5 is something you wait for, and are proud of when the time comes, knowing you've "done the time" waiting for it. I think with this suggestion the game will go downhill rather fast
Just my 2 cents
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5670
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:43:01 -
[399] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m Us OCD folks would know it is there.
It is kind of like hanging a picture over a stain on the wall.
Plus it would still appear in the API. |
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
153
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 01:46:28 -
[400] - Quote
Querns wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.
The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless. This is a god-tier post. Holy ****.
As to the TSPs, I initially had a knee-jerk freakout at the first DevBlog, but after I sat down and thought about it for a while this isn't really different from the Character Bazaar we have now.
All the arguments being made about Pay-to-Win microtransactions are the same arguments that could be made about the Character Bazaar, and I have literally never seen a single player give a **** about that.
If anything this means that you can start a new character in EVE and save up for TSPs to get a faster start instead of feeling like you have to go to the Character Bazaar to get a new character.
As someone who has played EVE for over 7 years, I have to wonder whether the people complaining about this are legitimately concerned about the game, or just mad because they won't be able to wag their giant SP e-peen in the faces of everyone in the game anymore?
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
|
|
Shinshi Kuroi
NerdHerd The Explicit Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 02:01:30 -
[401] - Quote
This seems like a great idea, but I'm not sure I agree with the suggested mechanics and execution plan.
I don't think there should be diminished returns at all for skill injectors.
-BUT-
I believe that a reactivation and fatigue effect - like jump reactivation and fatigue with capitals and jump bridges - might be a way to keep the sp trading from getting too out of hand. A cool down timer based off the number of skill points the character using the injector has to calculate how long until they can use another skill injector - low sp characters might only have to wait minutes or hours whereas someone who has been training for years has to wait a few days, a week, with an eventual maximum they can reach. In this way you allow the low skill pilots the ability to make skill point leaps but also gives them time to go out and use those new skills before dumping into more. It also keeps high skill point, isk rich players from 'destroying' skill points, gobbling up all the skills points themselves, or from suddenly flooding the game with market/industry alts over night - but they can still get some nice chunks of time cut off some of those epic level 5 skills which take months to complete.
I'd think a similar system could work for the skill extractors, except in this case perhaps using a flat recycle timer akin to the one we use for jump clones.
With this kind of system CCP could even expand the Neural Enhancement Skills to reduce the fatigue effects slightly - again, like jump clones - or even make it necessary to have certain skills to implant specific implants to even be able to inject or extract skills. |
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
154
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 02:10:51 -
[402] - Quote
Shinshi Kuroi wrote:This seems like a great idea, but I'm not sure I agree with the suggested mechanics and execution plan.
I don't think there should be diminished returns at all for skill injectors.
-BUT-
I believe that a reactivation and fatigue effect - like jump reactivation and fatigue with capitals and jump bridges - might be a way to keep the sp trading from getting too out of hand. A cool down timer based off the number of skill points the character using the injector has to calculate how long until they can use another skill injector - low sp characters might only have to wait minutes or hours whereas someone who has been training for years has to wait a few days, a week, with an eventual maximum they can reach. In this way you allow the low skill pilots the ability to make skill point leaps but also gives them time to go out and use those new skills before dumping into more. It also keeps high skill point, isk rich players from 'destroying' skill points, gobbling up all the skills points themselves, or from suddenly flooding the game with market/industry alts over night - but they can still get some nice chunks of time cut off some of those epic level 5 skills which take months to complete.
I'd think a similar system could work for the skill extractors, except in this case perhaps using a flat recycle timer akin to the one we use for jump clones.
With this kind of system CCP could even expand the Neural Enhancement Skills to reduce the fatigue effects slightly - again, like jump clones - or even make it necessary to have certain skills to implant specific implants to even be able to inject or extract skills. Huh...that's an interesting idea.
I mean I do see where some of the people are coming from on the idea of the diminishing returns. If they are completely unattractive to high-SP players, the supply of them will be consistently low and the price will be astronomical.
That WOULD mean you could make a lot of money off of them but since most of the newer players these things are meant for wouldn't be able to afford them, you end up with a gimmick that doesn't get used.
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
|
Trinkets friend
Empty Vessels
2989
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 02:26:24 -
[403] - Quote
Exhumers 5, your days are numbered. My alts have need of those skills.
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
|
Random User83
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 02:34:41 -
[404] - Quote
Oh yes... OH YES... OHHH YESSSSSS all of those pointless mining skill points put towards useful things, like engineering and gunnery....
I'm a strong independant alt that don't need no main...
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2208
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 02:52:26 -
[405] - Quote
It's official, Kil2 really is the moron who killed EVE. Not only can't he balance for ****, he also introduces ships he doesn't even know what they'll do and will require help from players to fix. And now he dropped this bomb on us. Well done clown. |
Daimon Tar
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:05:22 -
[406] - Quote
I like it. Ive got skills I've wasted points in that I can give an alt or give to a friend and diminishing returns will mean there less SP in the eve-universe every-time its used. Choices are a good thing.
Its a shame this thread is a salt mine though. God forbid a new character have something easier than a bitter vet. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2210
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:07:45 -
[407] - Quote
And when the Goon/Horde RMT machine gets into gear just remember: we told you so. Just like we told you so with the T3D. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2325
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:30:07 -
[408] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:And when the Goon/Horde RMT machine gets into gear just remember: we told you so. Just like we told you so with the T3D. What, exactly, is the tipping point here regarding a goon RMT machine? Why would it be now, and not back when Technetium was hemorrhaging ISK in untold quantity?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:31:03 -
[409] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:And when the Goon/Horde RMT machine gets into gear just remember: we told you so. Just like we told you so with the T3D. What, exactly, is the tipping point here regarding a goon RMT machine? Why would it be now, and not back when Technetium was hemorrhaging ISK in untold quantity? The tipping point is how convenient it is for the current argument. Tech is old news.
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2213
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:33:20 -
[410] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:And when the Goon/Horde RMT machine gets into gear just remember: we told you so. Just like we told you so with the T3D. What, exactly, is the tipping point here regarding a goon RMT machine? Why would it be now, and not back when Technetium was hemorrhaging ISK in untold quantity?
Explained here |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
2325
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:35:06 -
[411] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Querns wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:And when the Goon/Horde RMT machine gets into gear just remember: we told you so. Just like we told you so with the T3D. What, exactly, is the tipping point here regarding a goon RMT machine? Why would it be now, and not back when Technetium was hemorrhaging ISK in untold quantity? Explained here That's pretty insane, man. Why would we use SP injectors when we could just sell ISK directly?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2213
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:40:16 -
[412] - Quote
If you had read it: isk isn't a limiting factor, SP is. Also Isk can be legitimately gotten via plex so there's a lot of competition in that. Alliances like yours have so much isk there's nothing for them to spend it on, it's wasted pretty much so this SP trading is one of the few good options to syphon some off that away. You simply need to create the demand and then supply them.
1 lure newbie into alliance 2 do the "well, if you could fly a [insert ship/module] BC then you could join in these awesome fights" 3 sell SP 4 .... 5 profit |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:43:55 -
[413] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:If you had read it: isk isn't a limiting factor, SP is. Also Isk can be legitimately gotten via plex so there's a lot of competition in that. Alliances like yours have so much isk there's nothing for them to spend it on, it's wasted pretty much so this SP trading is one of the few good options to syphon some off that away. You simply need to create the demand and then supply them.
1 lure newbie into alliance 2 do the "well, if you could fly a [insert ship/module] BC then you could join in these awesome fights" 3 sell SP 4 .... 5 profit Isk can be had via PLEX, injectors can be had via isk. There is already a fully EULA biding route here for an item which itself reinforces the value of isk.
If the competition from legal means works against isk sales, why wouldn't it work against injector sales using the same method?
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2213
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:48:25 -
[414] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:If you had read it: isk isn't a limiting factor, SP is. Also Isk can be legitimately gotten via plex so there's a lot of competition in that. Alliances like yours have so much isk there's nothing for them to spend it on, it's wasted pretty much so this SP trading is one of the few good options to syphon some off that away. You simply need to create the demand and then supply them.
1 lure newbie into alliance 2 do the "well, if you could fly a [insert ship/module] BC then you could join in these awesome fights" 3 sell SP 4 .... 5 profit Isk can be had via PLEX, injectors can be had via isk. There is already a fully EULA biding route here for an item which itself reinforces the value of isk. If the competition from legal means works against isk sales, why wouldn't it work against injector sales using the same method?
It seems you don't want to read, because it doesn't suit your agenda.
Lets say I have 2 trillion and (thus) I really don't give a fck about isk, but I do care about RL money. I'll buy SP from the market and give that to you, while you give me something irl. I STILL will have "too much" isk, now I also have RL cash.
It's more difficult to persuade people to use RMT when there's an official way (sell plex for isk outright) of doing it. Using SP trading adds some extra variables and steps that will make it easier for people to do/use RMT. |
Roc Wind
Light of the moon Fraternity.
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:50:41 -
[415] - Quote
I am not an active player but I have been training my character since 2011. I spend 5 years to reach 100 m skill points and what makes me continue to be an EVE player is that in EVE the skill points is priceless, only the time matters. Hi, CCP, I am an old player and if you just evaluate me by the money I spent in EVE I will be very sad. In the past I could introduce to my friend the EVE game proudly because it is sophisticated and need real time to learn skill, but now I can only say it is good because you can get skill very quickly. I miss the time I got up in midnight to update my skill, I miss the time I traveled everywhere with my laptop in order to update my skill and I miss the time I lost my internet and begged my friend to help me update my skill. I treasure the skill points because you can't buy it, just like you can't buy the time. I felt EVE was like the real life, only time will teach me how to be a mature man. Now, honestly speaking, I can't stand some new guys could catch up with me on the skill points with some ISK. Once money could dominate a society in most aspects, no matter virtual or real, the society will be no longer suitable for living.
I think it is time to leave my favorite EVE after you implement this mechanic. I have no reason to stay in this cruel and money-mad world. |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
90
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:53:12 -
[416] - Quote
I like the whole "the way we are doing this means it's all still player driven" thing. It makes me feel a tiny bit better than if ccp just got rid of monthly subs and plex, and instead just sold sp packets and ships/mods directly for $$$.
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
153
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:55:56 -
[417] - Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about this, it doesn't feel like a step forward it feels more like a money grab right before the ship sinks.
I have to admit I am butthurt, I have what I have because I worked for it and I take pride in that.
Depending on how cheap or expensive this new endeavor becomes I fear this may bring in more WoW kiddies and with that even more crying about how hard the game is, will CCP then nerf all the things even more to keep the cash cow alive a little bit longer.? What ever happened to HTFU.? I guess it should now be PTFU.. (Pay the feck up).
This is honestly the best game I have ever played but it's ever so slowly falling from the top spot. |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 03:58:47 -
[418] - Quote
Erotisk Folkdans wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote: Lots of players will lose a lot of expirience. We all had to claw our way into better ships, dying and learning along the way.
Ooh I was waiting for this one. You really can't stand the thought of new players getting something you didn't get, can you? They must be denied! Please CCP, don't let new players be competitive! They can die in their new ships and get experience just as easy. You just can't kill them as easy. I would suggest before you fall asleep tonight, think long and hard about all those new players having fun with a little more sp. Quicker than you had. Hurts, doesn't it? Pathetic.
Not really pathetic at all, though youre quite a ***** for saying it in the way you did.
The truth is, this is game breaking across the board. I dont pvp much, i dont care about grinding noobs to dust. In fact, Im a newbro trainer. It would make my job significantly easier if this was implemented. that does not make it a good idea. I say this in complete honesty, the most fun i EVER had in eve was as a noob in a noob corp doing noob things.
I still remember being a hero by bringing a caracal into that SoE noob arc with the cruiser at the end that shield tanked. Everyone was in frigs and they couldnt break his tank, we were all new, and there were like 4 of us. couldnt do it. Luckiiy my skill training had just finished for caldari cruisers, so i got my caracal and broke the bastards tank and we finally finished the arc.
I had lots of expiriences like this, learning this game and improving while you still see the universe with the new player beer goggles we all lose somewhere along the way. Taking this expirience away is a crime. Players can be competitive, players cn be able to fight back faster, but taking away the new player expirience is criminal.
And aside from that, im really more worried about the higher sp characters. they are the ones who will buy the most of these injectors, and they are the ones who will set the prices. They dont need the boost. I dont need the boost. A small step stool is acceptable, but an amount of sp only limited by the depths of your pockets, which for far too many players are way too deep, is a horrible idea. The strong will get stronger, and the only way for new players to catch up will be to pay for PLEX until they can cheat their way to incursions. Its not right.
Set a limit to the number of Injectors possible per character, dont make this mistake.
Id also be curious to know which forums CCP was reading that made them think this idea was widely accepted, as a vast majority of what I read was quite negative. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:07:14 -
[419] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:If you had read it: isk isn't a limiting factor, SP is. Also Isk can be legitimately gotten via plex so there's a lot of competition in that. Alliances like yours have so much isk there's nothing for them to spend it on, it's wasted pretty much so this SP trading is one of the few good options to syphon some off that away. You simply need to create the demand and then supply them.
1 lure newbie into alliance 2 do the "well, if you could fly a [insert ship/module] BC then you could join in these awesome fights" 3 sell SP 4 .... 5 profit Isk can be had via PLEX, injectors can be had via isk. There is already a fully EULA biding route here for an item which itself reinforces the value of isk. If the competition from legal means works against isk sales, why wouldn't it work against injector sales using the same method? It seems you don't want to read, because it doesn't suit your agenda. Lets say I have 2 trillion and (thus) I really don't give a fck about isk, but I do care about RL money. I'll buy SP from the market and give that to you, while you give me something irl. I STILL will have "too much" isk, now I also have RL cash. It's more difficult to persuade people to use RMT when there's an official way (sell plex for isk outright) of doing it. Using SP trading adds some extra variables and steps that will make it easier for people to do/use RMT. I read it the first time (look further down on the page from the post you linked). It makes no more sense now than it did then. Why would someone, as a buyer who is somehow deterred from RMT due to legal means being present, buy RMT'd injectors from you when the isk I'm buying from CCP via PLEX instead of RMT isk gets me the same legally?
It doesn't matter how many trillions your hypothetical seller has or how much real cash they want, the legal way already exists for those who don't want to RMT.
Agendas indeed. Buying things on the market, the very purpose of getting isk, legal or otherwise, is somehow enough of an obfuscation to make RMT more appealing for injectors than isk itself?. Right. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1400
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:15:23 -
[420] - Quote
are we really going to use the "its for the new players angle"?
because if as a new player the only way to be on the same level as other new players is to shell out cash its ridiculous.
and don''t say "they can use isk" if its cheep enough that a new bro can make enough to get use out of them then they are just going to be bought as soon as they go on market by the people with isk.
the fact that they take a set time to produce means that even if the aurm price is low the isk price is going to be very high the only people able to afford these off the market are going to be bitter vets and people with the cash to sell plex
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
Niraia
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
385
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:15:42 -
[421] - Quote
Sad day for old players, but I hope you enjoy your money.
GÖÑ
|
Ein Herje
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:17:22 -
[422] - Quote
Yes I can understand to a certain extent where CCP is coming from with this, it will be awsome to get more players into the game, but don't you also think that there should be a cap so that older players don't feel like it's all been a waste for them, subscribing all this time getting all those skills up there?
Say something like 60-80 mill skillpoints you can make an awsome whatever pilot with that. (I think) I don't care about the finance, I want CCP to earn money I have nothing against that, but let it still be something special to have accumulated 100 of millions of skillpoints. The old players have carried the game this far by keeping their subs active you know. And the new brave eve pilots as well of course. (I am not referring to any entities ingame.)
But yes pay to win is always bad for any game. Someone at CCP should just figure out how much skills it takes to get dreads or carriers skills to lvl 4 everything included reps cap transfer and siege/triage and cap it right there.Also do the same for the industry aspect of the game try to find somewhere lvl 4 something something industry wise add it together divide by two and theres your cap.
Well I know that there are many aspects of eve that I have not included it's an awsome game with lots of possibilities. I read some of the forums and people who welcome this say that ah yes and still you can always go to the character bazaar and get a 200 + mill char instantly. I doubt it that someone who started playing eve yesterday has 150+ billion to buy these high skillpoints chars.
I welcome it with open arms if there would be implemented a cap for it. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:21:25 -
[423] - Quote
I was really hoping they wouldn't actually do this.
And I think it might backfire. It mostly depends on how much an injector costs. Waiting would have to be substantially cheaper than injecting for me to prefer waiting.
Currently I keep all my alts on separate accounts, and keep them subscribed even if I haven't had a use for them in a long time. I want their skills to keep increasing.
Under the new system, I would have no reason to do so. If I unsubscribe one for a few months, but then later on I feel like catching them up, I can just resub and buy some injectors.
That, or cancel 2/3 of my subs, and consolidate them onto the remaining 1/3 of my accounts.
Vincent Athena wrote:On the entire "cash out unwanted SP, or SP on a training alt" The process would be: Use ISK to buy PLEX. Break up PLEX into AUR. Use AUR to buy Skill extractors. Extract the SP, making Skill injectors. Sell the Skill injectors for ISK.
The question being: Will you end up with more ISK than you had to begin with? My guess is Yes. If not, very few will do this process. Why do it if you will not make ISK? The only reason is if you have unused AUR laying about.
So, if very few are making Skill injectors, their price will rise until its reasonably profitable to make them. Which means it will be reasonably profitable to make them.
It's the same way with the current character bazaar. Its more profitable to use all the PLEX needed to sell and transfer a character than the base value of the PLEX.
If the price of injectors rose to be greater than the value of the Aurum, then players would simply start buying PLEX off the market and converting it into injectors. |
Algathas
Wraithguard. The Wraithguard.
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:36:36 -
[424] - Quote
Still a pathetic money grab which does nothing to accomplish its supposed intended goals.
Help newbros? Yeah right. What newbro has billions of isk to toss around on day 1? These will be a ridiculously high priced item which will force newbros to spend money on plex to afford them as they will definitely not be able to afford them otherwise.
Simultaneously rich older players can reap benefits from them with their limitless supplies of isk.
CCP is effectively double dipping (or even triple dipping). - Pay sub to train skill > Pay AUR to extract skill > Buy plex to afford the ridiculous price to inject SP. At the same time, the total SP in the game decreases making these items even more valuable and expensive.
Anyone who has half a brain can see through the lines to what is really going on. |
lmmortalist
lmmortality Associates
188
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:36:41 -
[425] - Quote
I like the way the Goon posters in this thread (except for a single one!) have their tongues pressed so deep between CCP's buttcheeks that their ideas of exploiting this feature are far more than just obvious.
-This is not the same thing as the character bazaar. In the bazaar you receive a character with the skillset, avatar, employment history, nickname, reputation etc. of whoever happened to have been training it. In other words it's not 100% customized to your liking on a silver platter, which is also a reason for some to think again before buying a character. This is something that also affects the bulk price of the particular character, meaning that the player can't slowly ****-drop his real life cash into SP but has to make a big investment at once
-As Tippia said: this is going to flush the T3 cruiser SP loss after a ship loss down the toilet
-This is a huge step towards making the game more mainstream and not so hard and unforgiving on the player. An ideology which has allowed Eve to hold its unique status among MMORPGs
-Like many other players, I never found the instant gratification to be the most enjoyable way to play games and, as such, have favoured games like Eve which are all about long term plans. So much for those skill plans... |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2231
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:50:36 -
[426] - Quote
I have been playing almost nine years. I have enough SP to do anything I want in this game. I do not see myself ever using this feature. With that said, I still support this change, because it will be good for some people and will improve their gaming experience. That, and, it is no different than selling or buying a character in the bazaar.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Doppleganger
Federated Holdings Libera Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 04:58:01 -
[427] - Quote
This is the worst idea CCP has come up with in my 13 yrs of playing this game (I was in beta as well so yes 13 yrs).
I have had a sub running continuously since 1 month after release. I have always enjoyed this game and knew I wanted to play it for yrs so even when I couldnt play for a couple of months I would keep my sub running to keep up on skills that I would want when I could get back to the game to play it.
If I was a newer player this would probably make it so I wouldnt keep a constant sub. I mean if I wanted to take a few months away from the game no prob because I could just buy sp to catch back me back up to the time I took off.
Seems like this idea will create more fair weather subs then the dedicated ones. |
God Chaser
Pan Galactic Commercial Union Infinite Spiral Drillings
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:00:17 -
[428] - Quote
This is the thing you want to do with the most precious thing in the game? Cant tolerate this idea. |
Gerardd
KuDeTa
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:01:53 -
[429] - Quote
i wasn't paying attention when this was announced the frist time around. This seems like a really bad plan to me. It strikes at the heart of the verisimilitude that to me always was a great part of Eve. It is fundamentally different from the character bazaar, where you trade a character (never done that either but can see the point of that). Here you would essentially give yourself a lobotomy and pass the extract on to someone else. How that is in any shape or form realistic is beyond me. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1401
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:20:50 -
[430] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I have been playing almost nine years. I have enough SP to do anything I want in this game. I do not see myself ever using this feature. With that said, I still support this change, because it will be good for some people and will improve their gaming experience. That, and, it is no different than selling or buying a character in the bazaar.
CCP, this idea is good and you should feel good.
But it is differant than the bazaar of it was the same they would not be keeping the bazaar
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:29:42 -
[431] - Quote
Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP?
I'd say it would pay your sub for the next 12 months with all those useless SP you have
|
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:31:49 -
[432] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:It's official, Kil2 really is the moron who killed EVE. Not only can't he balance for ****, he also introduces ships he doesn't even know what they'll do and will require help from players to fix. And now he dropped this bomb on us. Well done clown.
- edit -
Not going to stand for it: I'll delete my YT channel with guides and stop helping newbies in Rookie, I don't want to play p2w games and I don't want to lure others into one either.
Hi, can I have your Skillpoints ? |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2213
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:33:15 -
[433] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:That, and, it is no different than selling or buying a character in the bazaar.
Yes it very much is.
|
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 05:33:25 -
[434] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Even if it has already been suggested ...
CCPLEASE LET US DELETE SKILLS!
I don't want a skillbook refund. Just let me delete the dang skills.
Personally I want to keep the skillbooks, because I'm probably going to start training some of those skills again |
DJ Ghost Recon
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 06:02:59 -
[435] - Quote
This is a sad joke. Really 500k. for a new player that might seem like a lot. but for someone that has 40mil-80mil points. it will allow you to train (2) level 1 skills from stage 4 to stage 5 lol.
I was really excited at the idea that i would be able to give myself points. Take from one account to remove useless skills that I trained on impulse and apply to a toon that I had a better focus on. But 500k for what 20.00 or 30.00 bucks..
Really ... LAME |
Mifune
The Rusty Muskets
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 06:16:05 -
[436] - Quote
So I will preface my post in saying that I have been playing eve for a very long time, since before it was released. Before most people knew the game even existed and before a fair number of the people currently working at ccp. How eve in its infancy grabbed me was its unabashed approach to its players. It expected the players to bring their brains to the game if they were to succeed. I remember playing eve before there was even a "set destination" and you had to look at the map, write down you're jumps, plan you're route to go somewhere in the eve universe and then do it again to go to some other unknown solar system. It truly felt as if you were a space farer. When the game takes a direction to specifically make the consequences in eve easier on the player base, out of fear of consequences from the player base... It takes away the uniqueness that brought so many of the players to the game in the first place.
Firstly when eve started and us "old vets" trudged into the cold embrace of new eden, we felt freedom, adventure, we felt something that no MMO before it had given us. It was a game for adults, It was blade runner, it was ascendancy, it was what our imagination of space and alter egos craved. Finally having a world in which we could truly escape our normal daily life and dream of the stars and the universe which we could not reach.
What we were privileged enough to experience was one painful kick in the pills after another from eve. Eve forced us to learn the game as well as the developers or better. What can be broken, where are the boundaries and most importantly what are the consequences of failure. If a player messed up they lost, in whatever they were attempting. Every decision in eve meant something and those who took the time to think before making decisions would be rewarded for their efforts. One major element to eve was (as of this dev blog) character grooming, taking the time to plan which skills to train and when. This was just as important as applying those skills in game. Taking the time plan for you're characters future was you're responsibility and no one else's. If you messed up you had to deal with it. No get out of jail card, no take backs. Over the years eve has slowly made bad decisions "less" bad. In recent years I have been worried that the eve I grew to respect is changing in ways that may not be reversible. Catering to a player base that wants everything on a silver platter and complains even then that is not good enough. This the antithesis of eve to me.
While some in the community may say HEY JACK! theres a character bazaar.. so we should have skill buying also! (yes it is skill buying not trading folks). Well my argument to that is the character bazaar was a 110% bad idea in concept and implementation. It was a feel good moment for a dev team that they earned their pay check for a quarter but unfortunately the community has been paying the price ever since. Secondly two wrongs do not make a right.. Every player in eve up until the bazaar had to be responsible for their actions, the bazaar broke that and I would argue should be ended.
Now if we are going to argue that Pandora is out of the box and there is no going back, even then skill buying is such a bad idea on so many different levels. There are so many blatant flaws to anyone that half thinks about the impact on the game going into the future. The only positives Ive read thus far benefit the impatient or the regretful. Someone made a comment about telling a corp mate they have to wait to play with the big boys. Like ever other player that came before them? Put in the time and work... or would you like a silver platter my dear?
As to the regretful, as I said consequences. I have skills I look back on and think... why did I train that? what a waste.. but you know what? Its a part of my character, a part of me, a lesson and a reminder. One that will guide me into the future.
Looking at the proposed plan my question firstly is why? (anyone remember station environments?)
Is there really a demand for what you are trying to implement because I just do not see it. Every player I have talked to so far regardless of their time in eve have said this plan is a bad idea. The great thing about eve atm is that ever player is subject to the same rules.
As I see it there are three obvious paths for eve to travel down.
Monetary - Dumb down eve, make it easier and more inclusive to the general audience, less consequences and more feel good's and ata boys. Flexibility and hand holding for anyone not willing or capable of playing the game.
Longevity - Understand how eve came to be, why it is special and what you can do to make it better. Realize that you as developers have the power of life and death for eve and take ultimate responsibility for you're decisions with that in mind.
Role change - Conclude that the eve that once was is not a financially viable option to continue with. Convert eve from a game of mind and consequences to a modern game of micro transactions and pay to win.
I am not going to make my personal assumptions on which path ccp is choosing and/or has chosen. I would say that this decisions if carried through on will have major consequences.
What I would ask is to think deeply on the "consequences" of this decisions. Not because players may quit playing but because we are reaching a tipping point at which eve is not eve, its just another replaceable easy P2Win MMO. It may not change over night but it will eventually arrive at its destination. I hope the choice is the second, and that development will take the foundation that is eve and blaze a path into the future with the same level of imagination that eve started. I feel as if eve has been chasing ghost so to speak. Tweaking things that were already balanced, changing things with no benificial purpose.
Time to make eve... Not change it. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3484
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 06:16:42 -
[437] - Quote
i am not afraid of high SP noobs
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
Beta Maoye
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 06:44:58 -
[438] - Quote
Max. speed of SP training is 2,700/hour. 500K SP requires 185 hours of max. training. 185 hours is roughly a quarter of PLEX(720 hours) which is currently valued at about 1.2B. 500K SP should worth at least 300M. Not to mention the time value of 185 hours training period and CCP's extractor cost. A SP package might end up well above 1B in the player market. SP is always in demand, like PLEX, will be a good reserve currency to store value. It might help to reduce the inflation pressure of PLEX. A good news to PLEX users. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:03:24 -
[439] - Quote
DJ Ghost Recon wrote:This is a sad joke. Really 500k. for a new player that might seem like a lot. but for someone that has 40mil-80mil points. it will allow you to train (2) level 1 skills from stage 4 to stage 5 lol.
I was really excited at the idea that i would be able to give myself points. Take from one account to remove useless skills that I trained on impulse and apply to a toon that I had a better focus on. But 500k for what 20.00 or 30.00 bucks..
Really ... LAME Where did those numbers come from? How do you even figure $20-$30?
DJ Ghost Recon wrote:Max. speed of SP training is 2,700/hour. 500K SP requires 185 hours of max. training. 185 hours is roughly a quarter of PLEX(720 hours) which is currently valued at about 1.2B. 500K SP should worth at least 300M. Not to mention the time value of 185 hours training period and CCP's extractor cost. A SP package might end up well above 1B in the player market. SP is always in demand, like PLEX, will be a good reserve currency to store value. It might help to reduce the inflation pressure of PLEX. A good news to PLEX users. The 300mill IS the cost of the time training, why would you need to factor that in again? That said we really do need an aur price for the extractors. The last real potential for catastrophic failure here is a bad price. |
Dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
66
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:09:50 -
[440] - Quote
This announcement is the lowest point in the whole history of EVE Online.
Just cancelled my EVE subscription after 13 years of faithfulness.
I don't want to play Pay2Win games and I will never come back.
Good bye to all I played with in the last 13 years. And no, you can't have my stuff!
I will announce the destruction of my highsec carrier later in another thread...
EVE Veteran
|
|
Beta Maoye
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:24:25 -
[441] - Quote
DJ Ghost Recon wrote:The 300mill IS the cost of the time training, why would you need to factor that in again? That said we really do need an aur price for the extractors. The last real potential for catastrophic failure here is a bad price. Because instant skill point injection has higher value than traditional skill point training. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:35:13 -
[442] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:DJ Ghost Recon wrote:The 300mill IS the cost of the time training, why would you need to factor that in again? That said we really do need an aur price for the extractors. The last real potential for catastrophic failure here is a bad price. Because instant skill point injection has higher value than traditional skill point training. No, it doesn't. The only cost of SP is the time training it, and this is a transfer of that time, thus the cost of that time is only factored once. The seller isn't providing any extra value that needs counted again.
|
Max Kurtis
Maple Moose The Bastion
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:38:07 -
[443] - Quote
Thank CCP ! my credit card is ready :) MOUAHAHAAHAHA |
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:43:48 -
[444] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m
Second best.
You know, if its still there, you know it and you feel compelled to train it and end up in the same situation as before.
Also, for some of us, our characters and what they ARE really matters. Its not so much about what they can DO. When I started out, I wanted to be a Caldari Achura Stargazer researcher. I was bound to travel the stars and discover technology. I am not complaining about how useless research skills are today (the argument that any skill was once wanted and useful when trained is somewhat valid). What I am saying is, things do change over the years. Achura Stargazer probably doesn't ring a bell anymore for most new folks. Today I see my character differently, too. It's not that I don't want her to research anymore, it's that I don't want her to be a researcher anymore. That's a difference. If that doesn't make any sense to you, good for you, then you are just not bothered by such subtleties.
The best solution imho would be a very rare skill reset (books ejected, points unallocated) that is open to any player at no additional cost every, say, two years. Like a neural remapping. But we wont get that, so the hopes of some were on this new contract with the MTX-devil.
Again, may I ask why one should not allow to forget skills at level zero. It does not create any difficult contingencies (as does the new mechanic required for handling of prerequisite skills), does not convey any in-game advantage to the player (on the contrary) and is probably implementable within the hour (hell, I'd fly to Iceland and code it myself if need be).
Still, good to see that someone from the CSM considers the point. Thank you and maybe you can bring the topic up. |
Intentional Concord Bringer
Evil Rotten Bastards
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:46:58 -
[445] - Quote
I suppose since the last time P2W came around it was called MonacleGate, this one ought to be called SPGate, eh?
Listen, CCP. Either charge me a sub fee or sell me golden trinkets, but don't expect to be able to do both and not get a ton of flack from those of us who have been around the block with you on this a few times.
I get it, CCP... you're in the business of making money. At the end of the day, despite everything you've ever said or done or said you would do - you're in business to make money. I think every EvE player can appreciate that. Your tactics, however, tend to leave much to be desired.
For instance, as far as I can tell from the comments on this dev blog and the ones from the last dev blog... 'overwhelming support' is, frankly, a mis-characterization of the facts. "Overwhelming concern' might have been a more appropriate characterization of the response in both threads - though it does seem outright disdain for the idea would be the more appropriate description.
Once again, CCP, you are breeding distrust amongst your players by choosing to poorly represent both the support for this idea and the real reasons behind it. Masking it as some attempts to 'help newer players' when, in reality, it is really all about getting new players to break open their wallet and hand you more money... isn't helping your cause.
When will you folks learn to simply be honest about your intentions? I think that's what really irks players here - not so much that your're finding inventive ways to soak more real life money out of your players... but that your being willfully misleading in your representation of that fact. Own it.
Me? I have no real dog in this fight - I think the idea is overall a bad one, but it won't generally affect me. All my toons are well above 6 figure SP and spending ISK or AUR for a paltry 150k (or any amount even) of SP just ins't even on my radar. Farming alts is also not on my radar so this 'feature' has little to no impact on my gameplay, aside from having to learn that a week old toon could possibly have a **** ton of SP and to bring more friends and bigger guns JIC.
So, choose a model and go with it - either subscriptions and long skills trains where experience and skills go hand in hand and it takes years to get to a point where you're good at anything, or no subs and p2w the sh!t out of EvE - but please quit trying to do both. It's a shameful practice and it really irks your player base... in case you hadn't noticed all the negative feedback. |
Beta Maoye
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 07:52:44 -
[446] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Beta Maoye wrote:DJ Ghost Recon wrote:The 300mill IS the cost of the time training, why would you need to factor that in again? That said we really do need an aur price for the extractors. The last real potential for catastrophic failure here is a bad price. Because instant skill point injection has higher value than traditional skill point training. No, it doesn't. The only cost of SP is the time training it, and this is a transfer of that time, thus the cost of that time is only factored once. The seller isn't providing any extra value that needs counted again. If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option. |
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:08:25 -
[447] - Quote
Sadly, I do not see any good come out of this idea for what's left of the player base, or even for possible new players. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:12:48 -
[448] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option. It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:14:21 -
[449] - Quote
Intentional Concord Bringer wrote:I suppose since the last time P2W came around it was called MonacleGate, this one ought to be called SPGate, eh? Stealth monocle master race post?
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2044
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:18:45 -
[450] - Quote
Nice, gank alts for free. Off to calculate how many I need for cheap skiff ganks.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
|
Beta Maoye
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:28:02 -
[451] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Beta Maoye wrote:If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option. It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for. The market will decide its true value. |
Frank Pannon
183
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:31:35 -
[452] - Quote
Picman wrote:Well, I am completely against this wonderful feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time. In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already. The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game. CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you. Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero. So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone. Best regards, Picman
This will be an option, you do not have to participate, noone forces you.
CCP is a company, not a charity. They need money to pay employees, to develop, to keep this game running. I think we can all agree on that.
So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.
I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.
All I ask is to keep an open mind. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:37:05 -
[453] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Beta Maoye wrote:If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option. It really doesn't, because no SP is instant, all of it was produced the same way. Someone trained it the same way you would yourself and the only premium to consider is what you can get away with depending on how much supply there is. There is no second base cost of the time to account for. The market will decide its true value. That's actually my point, there is no flat price for the service of selling your time, thus no 2nd counting of that time. The profit on selling your time is what the market will bear, nothing else.
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:40:16 -
[454] - Quote
I forsee an increase in the price of "Prototype Cerebral Accelerators". Since the quickest way to get skill points fast would be to start a new alt and skill it for a month or two (depending what the minimum SP is to be able to extract.)
Frank Pannon wrote:
So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation.
I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading.
All I ask is to keep an open mind.
It allows rich new players to experience it, lol. Or established characters with lots of ISK to rapidly build up alts.
|
Zakks
Zakks Shop
24
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:40:53 -
[455] - Quote
When do I get to buy my Golden bullet$? |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:47:54 -
[456] - Quote
What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.
The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.
In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.
Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them. |
Memphis Baas
941
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:52:39 -
[457] - Quote
As a side-effect, you're bringing the skill donors and the skill buyers to Jita, because carrying injectors in cargoholds is a recipe for disaster. It probably won't have the volume that PLEX trading has, but the SP can't be donated by trade alts, nor can it be injected by alts. The mains have to come to Jita. Hopefully you're prepared for the increased load on the node. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:52:48 -
[458] - Quote
Arithron wrote:What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.
The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.
In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.
Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them. No one's forgetting, we just don't have a price to factor since somehow between 2 blogs we don't even have a ballpark figure. Also I'm sure it's been explicitly mentioned in recent exchanges.
Interestingly I wonder how many non-training accounts are out there which could increase the amount of SP being generated without consuming additional PLEX. Further I wonder how much PLEX will get introduced from people trying to buy these with PLEX. |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings Nihilists Social Club
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 08:59:19 -
[459] - Quote
Sign the petition here to prevent 80mil+ characters being able to buy more SP!
We don't need too, we are SP rich
Petition to have upper limit on SP injector use
Any vet who whines obviously has your iskies in his/her sights. A couple of the larger alliances seem quite happy with this implementation. |
shaun 27
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:09:15 -
[460] - Quote
Frank Pannon wrote:Picman wrote:Well, I am completely against this wonderful feature with SP transfers. Not sure where the forum is where people agreed this feature would be welcome, I must have visited the wrong forum all time. In my opinion this feature is not here to make it easier for new characters. Compared to some years ago the game start has been made by far easier for newbies already. The only reason why SP transfers will be introduced is CCP's wish to earn more money with the game. CCP, if you really just want to give new players an easier start, then seed these empty skill injectors to npc market offers or even better, add them to the loot tables so that everyone can find them. This way they'd also be available, but there will be no additional dollars for you. Pity I believe this would reduce your interest in this new feature to zero. So as the SP transfer will come anyway, at least tell the truth that the only reason is to milk the cow and don't pretend you want to make it easier for anyone. Best regards, Picman This will be an option, you do not have to participate, noone forces you. CCP is a company, not a charity. They need money to pay employees, to develop, to keep this game running. I think we can all agree on that. So if this feature enables some new players to catch up and enjoy the game, while at the same time gives another revenue source to CCP, than it is really a win-win situation. I have yet to read an argument here, that would depict a serious threat to current "meta". But I keep reading. All I ask is to keep an open mind.
Problem is though new players catching up their will be 2 classes. one with money and one with not and it then becomes a game of keeping up with the joneses. Eve has got a demographic problem with sp but this is not the way to go about it. It will create alot more problems then solve.
Yeah i will bet their will be a slight increase in numbers when this hits but it will be short lived because i feel it will bring the wrong type of person to the game, which is people who come along chip in few skills and eventually get bored because they been their done that got to that top lvl and leave again. |
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5671
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:09:57 -
[461] - Quote
Dosperado wrote:This announcement is the lowest point in the whole history of EVE Online.
Just cancelled my EVE subscription after 13 years of faithfulness.
I don't want to play Pay2Win games and I will never come back.
Good bye to all I played with in the last couple of years. And no, you can't have my stuff!
I will announce the destruction of my highsec carrier later in another thread... Can I have your stuff skill points? |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
789
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:13:33 -
[462] - Quote
Not sure how to feel about this. If this goes through i'd at least like to see injectors not giving any SP at all over 150m or so.
This has the benefit of keeping the price of the injectors down in the long run. There's enough trillionaires who would otherwise simply buy it all up and max their characters instantly.
Skills are a core part of EVE, in that it forces you to plan ahead and be prepared. Introducing this kind of mechanic makes skills feel somewhat irrelevant.
Another negative effect i'm fairly sure people haven't thought about - Your account gets hacked (somehow), and some Chinese dude drains ALL your SP. Now you not only have the isk flow to track, but may have to explain to people how they are being 'robbed' of SP they bought legitimately off the market....
Botters who can now quickly reskill new accounts and keep on going.
Seems like this hasn't really been thought through....
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Sekai
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:17:08 -
[463] - Quote
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
311
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:17:23 -
[464] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Not sure how to feel about this. If this goes through i'd at least like to see injectors not giving any SP at all over 150m or so.
This has the benefit of keeping the price of the injectors down in the long run. There's enough trillionaires who would otherwise simply buy it all up and max their characters instantly.
Skills are a core part of EVE, in that it forces you to plan ahead and be prepared. Introducing this kind of mechanic makes skills feel somewhat irrelevant.
Another negative effect i'm fairly sure people haven't thought about - Your account gets hacked (somehow), and some Chinese dude drains ALL your SP. Now you not only have the isk flow to track, but may have to explain to people how they are being 'robbed' of SP they bought legitimately off the market....
Botters who can now quickly reskill new accounts and keep on going.
Seems like this hasn't really been thought through....
Many players including myself would be long gone from Eve before the hackers can figure out how to do that. |
Baracuda
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
139
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:32:44 -
[465] - Quote
This whole is utterly bullshit. Pay-2-win sneakes into EVE. |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
789
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:34:45 -
[466] - Quote
Something else that just sprung up in my mind - This allows sub 50m characters to basically respec without losing too much SP...
Why not add a respec option as well to make this even easier? /sarcasm
I'm just getting this strange, odd taste in my mouth. The feature isn't designed to 'help the players', it's designed to be monetized and it's so obvious it almost hurts. This devblog also indicates that they want EVERYONE to use it. Well, everyone who can afford it.
Adding to this comes Valkyrie and Gunjack (Dust and Legion seem to have been forgotten entirely). I was rather stoked for Valkyrie at first, but it started feeling like 'something on the side' with no relevance to EVE anymore except its setting. Gunjack left me wondering what the hell it was for since the announcement.
The games that feature actual integration into EVE have been sidelined and i'm almost 100% sure that CCP is currently working on another title which has no effect on the main game, to be announced shortly.
Add to this that the new features planned for EVE really aren't all that groundbreaking, but are actually just minor iterations on existing systems....
When did the plans for the 'ultimate scifi simulator' get sidelined? Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous will be offering content this and next year EVE has promised to deliver since 2004, but won't be implementing any time soon, or even in the next decade. Would anyone still play EVE if Elite offered player manufacturing and territorial control?
EVE hasn't fundamentally changed since it's inception. Sure, systems and mechanics have evolved, but the game itself is still exactly the same as it was on release, and only now i'm realizing it. EVE finally started feeling truly old.
What is going on? What has CCP been doing exactly, behind the scenes? Or am i just going crazy here?
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Demica Diaz
SE-1
182
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:43:44 -
[467] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Something else that just sprung up in my mind - This allows sub 50m characters to basically respec without losing too much SP...
Why not add a respec option as well to make this even easier? /sarcasm
I'm just getting this strange, odd taste in my mouth. The feature isn't designed to 'help the players', it's designed to be monetized and it's so obvious it almost hurts. This devblog also indicates that they want EVERYONE to use it. Well, everyone who can afford it.
Adding to this comes Valkyrie and Gunjack (Dust and Legion seem to have been forgotten entirely). I was rather stoked for Valkyrie at first, but it started feeling like 'something on the side' with no relevance to EVE anymore except its setting. Gunjack left me wondering what the hell it was for since the announcement.
The games that feature actual integration into EVE have been sidelined and i'm almost 100% sure that CCP is currently working on another title which has no effect on the main game, to be announced shortly.
Add to this that the new features planned for EVE really aren't all that groundbreaking, but are actually just minor iterations on existing systems....
When did the plans for the 'ultimate scifi simulator' get sidelined? Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous will be offering content this and next year EVE has promised to deliver since 2004, but won't be implementing any time soon, or even in the next decade. Would anyone still play EVE if Elite offered player manufacturing and territorial control?
EVE hasn't fundamentally changed since it's inception. Sure, systems and mechanics have evolved, but the game itself is still exactly the same as it was on release, and only now i'm realizing it. EVE finally started feeling truly old.
What is going on? What has CCP been doing exactly, behind the scenes? Or am i just going crazy here?
You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: |
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:48:47 -
[468] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE:
Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense.
|
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:50:57 -
[469] - Quote
Hi Everyone,
Dev team said :
Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training.
1) First of all, the skills injector will only be available on the market in game, so the real question is -½ At what price ? -+ Another way to phrase the question: -½ Will skills injector accessible to players who do not have 5 or 10 years on Eve? -+
I doubt it.
Playing Eve is not spending time generating ISK for paying our monthly subscription or to purchase our skills injectors. Otherwise, it's no longer a game, but a work to do. Only former players can generate isk without efforts or in a funny way.
For me, despite a year and a half on Eve, I still canGÇÖt pay my subscription in game with Plex. Without spending my days generating isk in Eve in front of my screen, how could I?
Then buying in game a skills injector, the potential value of such device is so high, without being a Multi billionaire former player in Eve on, I do not think that will be possible.
This means this opportunity will be only for former players, those who are already so powerful and make laws in Eve universe. New players or those who do not spend 10 hours a day generating isk (because there are plenty of things to do in real life) will go their way.
2) Nowhere ItGÇÖs said that, after my skills extraction, I canGÇÖt do the skills injection on me. So the system will be used as skill points redistribution. If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so.
This means that the injector skill will certainly not end up on the market.
And if CCP want to lock this ability, it would be impossible because we would just have to use an alt.
So, well ... it's not for us, players who do not have many years in this game. And that is sad.
Why CCP doesnGÇÖt see this. Maybe CCP have undeclared sub-objectives, nothing to do with the playability (money for example). Eve is a many years online game. As such, it faces the problem of all old online games: keeping ancient players by giving them new opportunities, while allowing novice players to have a place in the game. I have never seen a company succeed that, and found almost the same pattern: More content for former players (but inaccessible for new players), boost new players, artificially (e.g., schematic for any game, giving a novice player the ability to start level 140 rather than level 1, itGÇÖs a caricature, but that's it).
|
Steijn
Quay Industries
1038
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:52:24 -
[470] - Quote
pointless going over issues against this which have already been mentioned previously, but this is a really bad idea imo |
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
312
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:53:58 -
[471] - Quote
CCP what you are doing now by implementing this cancerous feature into Eve despite the enormous amount of opposition to the idea , is flat out betrayal.
I hope you're planning on changing your Corp name after you've milk this game down to the bone marrow because no one is ever going to trust anything released by CCP Games ever again (with the exception of pay2win fanatics of course). |
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:57:16 -
[472] - Quote
Morkan Damosty wrote:If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so.
If I had over 80 Million SP, I would remove 500 K and re-inject possibly as little as 150 K. Why the hell would I do this ?
|
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:57:28 -
[473] - Quote
Morkan Damosty wrote:Hi Everyone, Dev team said : Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training. 1) First of all, the skills injector will only be available on the market in game, so the real question is -½ At what price ? -+ Another way to phrase the question: -½ Will skills injector accessible to players who do not have 5 or 10 years on Eve? -+ I doubt it. Playing Eve is not spending time generating ISK to be abble to pay our monthly subscription or to purchase our skills injectors. Otherwise, it's no longer a game, but a work to do. Only former players can generate isk without efforts or in a funny way. For me, despite a year and a half on Eve, I still canGÇÖt pay my subscription in game with Plex. Without spending my days generating isk in Eve in front of my screen, how could I? Then buying in game a skills injector, the potential value of such device is so high, without being a Multi billionaire former player in Eve, I do not think that will be possible. This means this opportunity will only be for former players, those who are already so powerful and make laws in Eve universe. New players or those who do not spend 10 hours a day generating isk (because there are plenty of things to do in real life) will go their way. 2) Nowhere ItGÇÖs said that, after my skills extraction, I canGÇÖt do the skills injection on me. So the system will be used as skill points redistribution. If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so. This means that the injector skill will certainly not end up on the market. And if CCP want to lock this ability, it would be impossible because we would just have to use an alt. So, well ... it's not for us, players who do not have many years in this game. And that is sad. Why CCP doesnGÇÖt see this. Maybe CCP have undeclared sub-objectives, nothing to do with the playability (money for example). Eve is a many years online game. As such, it faces the problem of all old online games: keeping ancient players by giving them new opportunities, while allowing novice players to have a place in the game. I have never seen a company succeed that, and found almost the same pattern: More content for former players (but inaccessible for new players), boost new players, artificially (e.g., schematic for any game, giving a novice player the ability to start level 140 rather than level 1, itGÇÖs a caricature, but that's it). |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
791
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 09:59:34 -
[474] - Quote
Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense.
A character on the bazaar has a name (which cannot be changed), and a very specific set of skills, as well as a reputation.
A 500k sp item has none of those, and can be applied to any skill you like on your own character.
How are they similar? Or are you implying that buying seperate SP also changes your name and reputation and gives you random skills you never need?
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2214
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:05:28 -
[475] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense. A character on the bazaar has a name (which cannot be changed), and a very specific set of skills, as well as a reputation. A 500k sp item has none of those, and can be applied to any skill you like on your own character. How are they similar? Or are you implying that buying seperate SP also changes your name and reputation and gives you random skills you never need?
He doesn't want to acknowledge this obvious issue because it doesn't suit his agenda. He's a Clown legion alt after all. |
Demica Diaz
SE-1
182
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:06:12 -
[476] - Quote
Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Demica Diaz wrote:You are not alone. I see so much more benefits to old vets than newbros with this feature. As old player I welcome change as it will benefit me. If I was newbro and looking at that 5D 11m 45s skill training and << INSTANT UPGRATE! Insert credit card here! >> button. It would leave bitter taste about EVE: Like it or not, that button already exists in the form of the Character Bazaar. Once you get your head around that fact, everything else in the dev blog makes perfect sense.
There is difference in buying someones character whos name you cannot change and might have history behind the name. Than pumping your very own first character you created for the first time ever in EVE with skill injectors. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1796
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:07:32 -
[477] - Quote
From now on, you do not know if a few hours old char can light a covert cyno or not.
This makes the world more challenging... |
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:07:32 -
[478] - Quote
Baracuda wrote:This whole is utterly bullshit. Pay-2-win sneakes into EVE.
Lol - Eve has always been about pay to win.
Ship bad - BUY better ship Modules bad - BUY better modules
Its funny old players dont like this change - they are concerned they dont have the edge over new players of Eve. Get some skillz, not sp but gaming skillz!!!
|
Big Lynx
4471
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:08:51 -
[479] - Quote
The sell-out of SPs. The inflation of a crucial feature and the fall of a bearing pillar of Eve Online. |
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:12:11 -
[480] - Quote
Dr Conrad Murray wrote:Morkan Damosty wrote:If I was a former player with over 80 million SP, thatGÇÖs what I would do, extract my skills to reinject them elsewhere. Redistribution of my skills so. If I had over 80 Million SP, I would remove 500 K and re-inject possibly as little as 150 K. Why the hell would I do this ?
Yes you're right.
I didn't read the Dev post carrefully enough.
So no Skills redistribution. |
|
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
42
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:13:19 -
[481] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Now someone tell me with a straight face that EVE is doing well financially. This is so desparate they must be in real trouble.
|
Demica Diaz
SE-1
182
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:13:45 -
[482] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Baracuda wrote:This whole is utterly bullshit. Pay-2-win sneakes into EVE. Lol - Eve has always been about pay to win. Ship bad - BUY better ship Modules bad - BUY better modules Its funny old players dont like this change - they are concerned they dont have the edge over new players of Eve. Get some skillz, not sp but gaming skillz!!!
As older player I think this change seem to benefit older players more than new players. I belive many old players already know that even with all Vs if they go PvP and never PvPd before they get wrecked. Its kinda obvious. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:17:18 -
[483] - Quote
Where will the skill injectors come from? Are they manufactured, or looted etc? If I want to buy a bunch of empty ones for myself will I be able to do that? |
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
45
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:17:48 -
[484] - Quote
Next up will be pre-fitted ships for AUR to go with the Easy-Skill(TM) feature. Nifty little "starter packs" that you can buy since you haven't got a clue: Easy-Mine, Easy-Gank, Easy-Xplore, Easy-BlackOps, and so on... Be your own Carrier Pilot in no time with Easy-Fits(TM). EVE is going to be such a great game from now on.
CCP, you are going down and there is no way back. You are pissing your credibility away faster than losing subscribers.
|
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
792
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:20:46 -
[485] - Quote
Sissy Fuzz wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Now someone tell me with a straight face that EVE is doing well financially. This is so desparate they must be in real trouble.
Bankrolling several new games which have yet to make any money (and closing one down already) purely from the income of one niche subscription MMO?
Nah, it should be allright :)
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
105
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:26:32 -
[486] - Quote
When i first read this dev blog, i thought its Aprils fool's day ...
Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits [...] wat I remember that feedback was mostly negative. |
Dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:29:38 -
[487] - Quote
In the german subforum I made the suggestion to give players the ability to SHIFT their available skillpoints for a small fee with a cooldown of maybe one day or a few days. So everyone could relocate their focal point(s) within a short amount of time and EVE by itself would get more dynamic.
Imho this is the best solution to give new players more possibilities and the veterans are not pissed off like I am right now. And this would generate more income (for CCP) than overpriced useless "Transneural Skill Packets" which new(er) players couldn't afford anyway.
But as always CCP does not listen to their old veteran playerbase...if you really going patch this P2W **** in february say goodbye to your game and to your company!
EVE Veteran
|
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:54:49 -
[488] - Quote
Can't say this is something I want or think is a positive addition to the game. There are more important things out there that need to be addressed first to simply improve the enjoyment of the game.
Not sure what the goal for the player base is - they will be too expensive for most true noobies and is probably just going to get abused by richer older players. EvE is a harsh world and we like it that way but padding all the walls so we don't hurt ourselves when we run into them isn't going to improve the game. |
witchking42
UNFRL Fleet Operations
164
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:55:20 -
[489] - Quote
Would have prefered it that you had to allocate the skill points to the same major group they were extracted from. This would stop the vetrans offloading millions of SP in industry for a noob to use to skill up to a Titan in a few days. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 10:58:39 -
[490] - Quote
Excellent stuff!
I agree with a concern raised by many others:
There should be a way to remove "0 SP" skills.
I very much favour being able to extract a "0 SP" skill into the physical skill book: that's clean and simple, basically the original skill injection in reverse. In fact, this would provide good "lore" on how we get these wonderful skill books in the first place!
As for the skill injectors, requiring that they be bought with AUR could be a major "overhead" and might contribute to driving newbies (without deep real world pockets) out of the market.
I hence really hope for a low price for the skill injector, say 100 AUR.
1 AUR is 300k-ish ISK, so that would be about 30M-ish ISK. And it would be really nice if skill injectors became a rare drop / pay-out for something in the game.
Finally, I predict that PLEX prices will fall significantly with the introduction of this. There probably will be many people who want to buy SPs, but can neither afford it now nor are willing to grind for the ISK for a long time. The only way to get that ISK quick is to buy PLEX with real money and sell it for ISK. So probably more people will dump PLEX on the market, and that will drive PLEX prices down.
I don't see a reason why PLEX prices would go up because of this, but I would be sincerely interested in hearing the reasoning behind that expectation. |
|
Rizz Razz
Bored Bureaucrats Ltd.
122
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:02:27 -
[491] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:
I hence really hope for a low price for the skill injector, say 100 AUR.
500 AUR will be minimum i think ... and 3500 AUR wont be a surprise :)
But we will see ... |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2216
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:03:29 -
[492] - Quote
Btw, where is the CSM? Or did this, conveniently, happen between CSM? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1891
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:05:57 -
[493] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m
Doing anything to accommodate OCD actually makes it worse. The characters that remove skills should show the mental scars from doing so. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:14:20 -
[494] - Quote
Rizz Razz wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:
I hence really hope for a low price for the skill injector, say 100 AUR.
500 AUR will be minimum i think ... and 3500 AUR wont be a surprise :) But we will see ...
Anything over 500 AUR would be a total fail IMO. |
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
52
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:14:45 -
[495] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:No actually it's more like regdate bragging, the idea that your character of *regdate* cannot be beaten by character of *lateregdate* This.
This is exactly the mindset CCP is trying to cater to with Easy-Skills(TM). The eternally butthurt curling-generation who are nothing less than morally piqued by the fact that some people are better than them because they stayed put and made an effort to actually achieve something by themselves. Using the one thing in life that no shortcut, CC swipe, or quickfix will replace, their time.
Outside Goonswarm and Murica! there are billions of people who would never dream of bragging. That be of regdates or otherwise. I understand that this is beyond you, Alavaria Fera, I really do, but thought you should know anyway. I bet you felt really clever coining "regdate bragging" but it is a bit shallow, mkay?
CCP wants this segment, the shortcutters, to feel happy.
|
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
216
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:15:39 -
[496] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:I don't see a reason why PLEX prices would go up because of this, but I would be sincerely interested in hearing the reasoning behind that expectation.
The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why.
To all of those, who rage about Eve becoming Pay2Win with this skill trading mechanic. Could you explain to me, why this method would be any more Pay2Win, than the current character bazaar already is?
Proposal: >>> New Inventory / Item Hangar <<<
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2219
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:27:29 -
[497] - Quote
Damjan Fox wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:I don't see a reason why PLEX prices would go up because of this, but I would be sincerely interested in hearing the reasoning behind that expectation. The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why. To all of those, who rage about Eve becoming Pay2Win with this skill trading mechanic. Could you explain to me, why this method would be any more Pay2Win, than the current character bazaar already is?
How often does this need explaining and why does this need explaining in the first fcking place. How stupid are folks?
Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.
The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.
And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.
|
Aroye
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:27:48 -
[498] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here! I don't think it will make any difference in the long run because extractors will probably cost way to much to be worth it. Something like a PLEX for a 7-8 days worth of SP. 400K sp is almost nothing in EVE. Some newbies will fall for it and wast money before they realize that it doesn't help. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2219
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:34:01 -
[499] - Quote
Aroye wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here! I don't think it will make any difference in the long run because extractors will probably cost way to much to be worth it. Something like a PLEX for a 7-8 days worth of SP. 400K sp is almost nothing in EVE. Some newbies will fall for it and wast money before they realize that it doesn't help.
The point is that this is a first step to p2w, and if people agree to it (by just passively accepting it even though they're not happy about the whole thing) then the next step will be a little bit further. And then a little bit more, and more and more. So if one's not happy with this whole thing then by simply condoning it you perpetuate it.
Me personally I draw the line here, not being dramatic about it but at some point you have to simply accept that the product you've been using for years is turning into something you don't want, and you decide to move on. Atm I'm consolidating my assets and then I'll delete my chars. And no you can't have my stuff, it'll be given to other folks. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:43:02 -
[500] - Quote
Damjan Fox wrote:The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why. I see now, thanks!
I think my point about more people dumping PLEX on the market stands though, so it will be really interesting to see how this will balance out in the end.
I think the lower the AUR cost for the skill injector, the more likely that PLEX prices will net drop: This would lower PLEX to AUR conversion demand, because one would not need as much AUR. But the PLEX supply from people trying to get ISK for buying skill packets would stay unaffected.
Another good reason the for a low AUR price on the skill injector, CCPlease. |
|
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die DARKNESS.
207
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:43:37 -
[501] - Quote
am in favour of this in one way but very annoyed by it. basically its taken me 10 years to get where i am now i can get a char pay for skills and have a 100mill sp char in one day if i so wish! not funny and basically ccp taking the ****
also youll have to be careful because the skill can cos considerably more than others. for example a capital skill could take the same time as a skill costing x10 less but its just converted into the same number of skillpoints. which i dont think is right |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2904
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:44:39 -
[502] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: Atm I'm consolidating my assets and then I'll delete my chars. And no you can't have my stuff, it'll be given to other folks. Can't say I've tended to agree with many of your opinions in F&I, but I will be sorry to see you go over this.
Much as I don't want it either and think CCP have it totally wrong when they are saying 'most of you saw the positives' and have fallen into the trap of listening to a few and believing it's the many..... I'm going to encourage you to stay anyway, because the biggest users/abusers of this will be the same people that grow alts 2 years before they actually need them anyway, so it won't have very much impact on the overall game.
Though I do also agree that this is a very very big step down a slippery slope, it's not the total doom of EVE, and if the cleats in the boot hold after this step, may not lead to it. |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:51:09 -
[503] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Aroye wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here! I don't think it will make any difference in the long run because extractors will probably cost way to much to be worth it. Something like a PLEX for a 7-8 days worth of SP. 400K sp is almost nothing in EVE. Some newbies will fall for it and wast money before they realize that it doesn't help. The point is that this is a first step to p2w, and if people agree to it (by just passively accepting it even though they're not happy about the whole thing) then the next step will be a little bit further. And then a little bit more, and more and more. So if one's not happy with this whole thing then by simply condoning it you perpetuate it. Me personally I draw the line here, not being dramatic about it but at some point you have to simply accept that the product you've been using for years is turning into something you don't want, and you decide to move on. Atm I'm consolidating my assets and then I'll delete my chars. And no you can't have my stuff, it'll be given to other folks.
There's no point threatning to leave, most of the people here raging and saying they will leave, will not, CCP know this after the monocle-crap a few years ago, hundreds threatend to leave, most are still here.
I as you am totally against this idea, but since there is a dev blog about it, i think it will be implemented, but im hoping CCPGäó sees sense and cap it at a lower SP value so it's only of use by newer players and make it so there is a limit to the amount of SP that can be injected per year.
|
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2222
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:56:41 -
[504] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Aroye wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here! I don't think it will make any difference in the long run because extractors will probably cost way to much to be worth it. Something like a PLEX for a 7-8 days worth of SP. 400K sp is almost nothing in EVE. Some newbies will fall for it and wast money before they realize that it doesn't help. The point is that this is a first step to p2w, and if people agree to it (by just passively accepting it even though they're not happy about the whole thing) then the next step will be a little bit further. And then a little bit more, and more and more. So if one's not happy with this whole thing then by simply condoning it you perpetuate it. Me personally I draw the line here, not being dramatic about it but at some point you have to simply accept that the product you've been using for years is turning into something you don't want, and you decide to move on. Atm I'm consolidating my assets and then I'll delete my chars. And no you can't have my stuff, it'll be given to other folks. There's no point threatning to leave, most of the people here raging and saying they will leave, will not, CCP know this after the monocle-crap a few years ago, hundreds threatend to leave, most are still here. I as you am totally against this idea, but since there is a dev blog about it, i think it will be implemented, but im hoping CCPGäó sees sense and cap it at a lower SP value so it's only of use by newer players and make it so there is a limit to the amount of SP that can be injected per year.
What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.
|
Dracnys
86
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:56:51 -
[505] - Quote
1. Buying SP injectors is not the same as trading on the character bazaar. While both buying SP injectors and buying characters are a way to skip ahead in the wait for SP, there are major differences. These are that 1) buying a character requires a huge investment, whereas buying SP injectors can be done in small steps, 2) a bought character comes with a fixed name and reputation, which many potential buyers dislike, 3) the process of buying a character is complicated for a new player. All in all, these differences mean that SP injectors are more useable and will be used by more players than the character bazaar.
2. SP injectors change the game for new players (<3 months) in a huge way and give the impression that EVE is P2W. In the early days of a new player, every single SP makes a difference. An injection of 500k SP give him access to a new shipclass, or a new activity in industry or exploration. A new player will also not have enough ISK to be able to afford an SP injection. ItGÇÖs hard to predict the final price, but it will almost certainly be more than 100m. This means that a new player has three options: 1) have a friend ingame who gives him SP injectors 2) buy PLEX with real money and 3) wait for the SP to come. Option 3 sounds like terrible gameplay and gives the impression that EVE is pay to win. Before SP injectors, a new player may have heard of the character bazaar, but due to the extreme amounts of ISK needed (from his perspective) it was never an option.
3. For intermediate players (>3 months but less than 12 months) SP injectors focus their attention on ISK. At that age SP is of course still extremely important. At a few months into EVE, intermediate players start to gain access to decently profitable ISK farming. With their attention focused on their SP count, they are incentivized to spend all their playtime farming. ThereGÇÖs a huge risk that they will not take the time to explore PVP, join a corporation or generally wander around the universe, trying new things. And that is where many will eventually quit because they perceive EVE as a grinding game.
4. On the other hand, new players now have a way of taking control of their SP development. Waiting can be very frustrating. If I tell a friend that it will take at least a few months until he can play a meaningful role in PVP, he will not join the game. Now I can offer to give him a few boosts, or point to profitable activities ingame.
5. Selling SP extractors gives CCP another way of making money. This is actually a good thing! As long as the company is healthy, EVE will continue to be developed. ItGÇÖs just a question of whether selling SP extractors is the least painful way the playerbase can pay CCP. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2222
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:01:52 -
[506] - Quote
Dracnys wrote:If I tell a friend that it will take at least a few months until he can play a meaningful role in PVP, he will not join the game.
Then you lied to him.
|
Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:09:35 -
[507] - Quote
I continue to believe that this is an extraordinarily bad idea and will have negative consequences for the game. It is indeed a pay-to-win "feature".
A fair number of players are likely to create farms of alts for the sole purpose of skill-point farming, and I think this is exactly what CCP wants. More accounts, more alts = more money.
This is not likely to encourage more players to join the game. People don't decide to play games based on whether or not they can rapidly catch up with their friends' skill point levels. They decide to play a game because they enjoy it. There is enough flexibility in the game as-is for new players to join their friends in most aspects of gameplay. In the few areas where there may be exclusion for a while, it is definitely temporary and they will need that time to learn how to play the game anyway.
If CCP proceeds with the horribly bad decision to add this feature, you can expect gankers to start shaking down players for skill points. Miners, haulers, and small corps are likely to see increased harassment. This time, however, it won't just be ISK you'll be asked to pay but rather the life's blood of your characters: skill points.
If the latter happens, that seems pretty unhealthy for the game aside from just the sleaziness of skill-point farming. A lot of newbies are already turned-off by EVE due to the current level of ganking activity in highsec. I don't see how a ganking-for-skill-points game environment will help attract new players.
Maybe CCP already understands these risks and this feature is being added solely as a scheme to milk more money out of the existing player base. It may do that to some degree, but I think it is likely to alienate more than a few players.
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:12:04 -
[508] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.
The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.
And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.
What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
2222
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:13:32 -
[509] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.
The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.
And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.
What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions.
Your logic (...) is dumb as hell, but thanks for playing. |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:14:57 -
[510] - Quote
Roughly how much AUR will the new skill extractor thing cost? |
|
Rizz Razz
Bored Bureaucrats Ltd.
126
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:18:02 -
[511] - Quote
Don't forget the impact on the economy! If i can maintain an account just by selling the SPs, i get a non-skiller account for free ... so why i shouldn't make an additionally mining account ... every single m3 Veldspar is profit ...
So you sell a company! Create an User-Bubble and max the profit of one good year (at cost of alle the following years) ... poor investor :) |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:21:06 -
[512] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Dibz wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.
The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.
And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.
What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions. Your logic (...) is dumb as hell, but thanks for playing.
Answer the question. What am I winning? And how is another player being put at a disadvantage?
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:21:22 -
[513] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.
Well, i don't see many people blowing up monuments in Jita over this, so i guess it's been accepted by the masses. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Curatores Veritatis Alliance
1023
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:23:35 -
[514] - Quote
Not really sure how this will help new players simply because they'll lack the funds to use it.
As others have said it's more likely going to be used for alts of players with well established income within the game. Personally I have an alt account which the character is trained in all it needs to be, might as well make an SP siphon character to get more SP/Month on my main.
This all comes down to the cost of the injectors I guess.
Lieutenant Turelus - Caldari Independent Navy Reserve - The Fourth District
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1893
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:25:42 -
[515] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.
Well, i don't see many people blowing up monuments in Jita over this, so i guess it's been accepted by the masses.
You see it as a good thing that the masses of players who have spoken against this can't even be bothered to protest? I see it as a sign that the existing community are losing the will to care. That is most definitely not a good thing. |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:25:48 -
[516] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why.
Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector.
So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1893
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:34:23 -
[517] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why. Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector. So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.
What happened to PLEX last time they introduced something into the AUR store? I thought prices went up? |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:39:56 -
[518] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why. Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector. So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.
Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.
Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.
Z.
|
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:42:26 -
[519] - Quote
Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.
Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.
Z.
[/quote]
How do you convert PLEX into AUR? |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:45:34 -
[520] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.
Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.
Z.
How do you convert PLEX into AUR?[/quote]
I don't really deal with Aur so I've never tried but I believe you can convert a single PLEX into 3500 AUR somehow? That was certainly what they said when PLEX was added and I've heard it repeated over the years.
Z. |
|
Gregor Parud
Viziam
2226
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:46:34 -
[521] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:How do you convert PLEX into AUR?
Market, Aurum tokens.
This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5850
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:51:02 -
[522] - Quote
Yes, you can convert Plex into 3500 aurum (right click option)
Or you can buy Aurum directly with RL money ( https://secure.eveonline.com/AurStore/ , generally a better deal than going through plex)
And in case anyone is looking for my reaction:
I wasn't a fan when this was first brought to the CSM. I still have concerns over it, but I've been talking with some of the proponents (players) for the idea, and what they're saying has some merit. My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:53:15 -
[523] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:How do you convert PLEX into AUR? Market, Aurum tokens. This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks.
Actually this I knew. What I did not know, is that there is a direct conversion method as well (1 PLEX into 3,500 AUR) . You learn something new every day even after years of playing. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1893
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:55:26 -
[524] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Yes, you can convert Plex into 3500 aurum (right click option) Or you can buy Aurum directly with RL money ( https://secure.eveonline.com/AurStore/ , generally a better deal than going through plex) My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.
A more immediate concern would be people asking ' I have to pay how much to even be considered useful???', rather than players taking the time to teach others how to be useful from day one. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1896
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:56:28 -
[525] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:How do you convert PLEX into AUR? Market, Aurum tokens. This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks. Actually this I knew. What I did not know, is that there is a direct conversion method as well (1 PLEX into 3,500 AUR) . You learn something new every day even after years of playing.
And what you didn't learn today you can now simply buy tomorrow... |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:57:01 -
[526] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:How do you convert PLEX into AUR? Market, Aurum tokens. This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks. Actually this I knew. What I did not know, is that there is a direct conversion method as well (1 PLEX into 3,500 AUR) . You learn something new every day even after years of playing. And what you didn't learn today you can now simply buy tomorrow...
+1, this was a good one |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:01:12 -
[527] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Dibz wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.
The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.
And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.
What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions. Your logic (...) is dumb as hell, but thanks for playing. Answer the question. What am I winning? And how is another player being put at a disadvantage?
You ignore the question and prefer to insult because you can't justify what you said. Or maybe you're too busy quitting to post... nope, you're still here |
ISD Supogo
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
557
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:01:33 -
[528] - Quote
Removed a misfire post at the OP's request.
ISD Supogo
Lieutenant Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
DoToo Foo
Sons Of Alexander AL3XAND3R.
58
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:04:17 -
[529] - Quote
I would prefer that
- the bonus should be provided in the form of a blood raider style skill boost rather than a one off injection.
- future skillpoints forgone is more valuable that existing skillpoints reprocessed. That is, the 'seller' of these packets applying skill training to a new packet is my preferred method.
- pilots are unable to 'unlearn' starter skills.
For me, Eve is not about instant gratification. It is something we towards, and when that magic moment comes (different moments for different players), it is all the more sweeter because of it. I like that skill training takes time. How much time? There I see room for flexibility.
My proposals are there to keep those training mistakes, those regretted choices with our characters forever, while still keeping the ability for that player to get that chance to get up to speed faster than they currently do.
Bob (and a few others) knows the training mistakes I have on my pilots. They are part of my journey.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2046
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:06:36 -
[530] - Quote
Can the extractors be used in space, so we can force someone to extract skills (as an example a mining skill) as a ransom? Will he eject from the ship once the skill to use his ship is gone? Would be really nice, thx
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:17:07 -
[531] - Quote
ISD Supogo wrote:Removed a misfire post at the OP's request.
Deleting posts is a bad sign!
I guess freedom of speech is not allowed by the hierarchy. |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:19:13 -
[532] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Can the extractors be used in space, so we can force someone to extract skills (as an example a mining skill) as a ransom? Will he eject from the ship once the skill to use his ship is gone? Would be really nice, thx
Would be funny but you'd need to hand them the extractor that's likely worth hundreds of millions of ISK first ... |
Gregor Parud
Viziam
2227
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:19:43 -
[533] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Yes, you can convert Plex into 3500 aurum (right click option) Or you can buy Aurum directly with RL money ( https://secure.eveonline.com/AurStore/ , generally a better deal than going through plex) And in case anyone is looking for my reaction: I wasn't a fan when this was first brought to the CSM. I still have concerns over it, but I've been talking with some of the proponents (players) for the idea, and what they're saying has some merit. My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.
You're listening to people's selfish :reasonings: as to why this is a good idea? Really? And you fell for that?
|
Carper
Carper's Love
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:21:19 -
[534] - Quote
I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die DARKNESS.
208
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:24:16 -
[535] - Quote
Carper wrote:I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.
exactly +1 spebt 10+ years on my chars and now i just feel a bit cheated. |
Rizz Razz
Bored Bureaucrats Ltd.
126
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:24:41 -
[536] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Rizz Razz wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:
I hence really hope for a low price for the skill injector, say 100 AUR.
500 AUR will be minimum i think ... and 3500 AUR wont be a surprise :) But we will see ... Anything over 500 AUR would be a total fail IMO.
Don't forget the Blood Raider Accelerator Test ! CCP recognized that Players are willing to pay up to 300 mio isk for just 50k effective Skillpoints ... so why u think u can buy 500k SP for under a billion isk?
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:25:33 -
[537] - Quote
I'm waiting, Greggy Weggy....
Did you delete your Youtube channel yet? |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2046
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:28:50 -
[538] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Can the extractors be used in space, so we can force someone to extract skills (as an example a mining skill) as a ransom? Will he eject from the ship once the skill to use his ship is gone? Would be really nice, thx Would be funny but you'd need to hand them the extractor that's likely worth hundreds of millions of ISK first ... Or we could make it so that we can use the magic CCP store in space, so people can pay the ransom with the credit card.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
549
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:29:35 -
[539] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: And in case anyone is looking for my reaction:
I wasn't a fan when this was first brought to the CSM. I still have concerns over it, but I've been talking with some of the proponents (players) for the idea, and what they're saying has some merit. My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.
Thanks for that. But, not a fan? This is an attack on EVE's soul. It's such a terrible idea, I'm upset it was suggested at all. Of course some people are going to want it. But consequences are meaningless if you can erase your mistakes, Steve. Consequences are what makes EVE... EVE. There is simply no merit in this. There are a million ways we could have gotten new players into the game more quickly/efficiently without allowing the entire playerbase to purchase SP. Thus, it's only logical that a lot of folks are going to conclude this is a money-grab.
I keep trying to think of what suggestions I could offer that would, to my mind, make this acceptable. For a second I thought there should be some player penalty for injecting SP. A remap loss, destroyed implants, standings to 0, call it brain scrambling, something, but even if a penalty like that were implemented - I'd still hate this idea. It's still PTW.
EVE ONLINE: HTFU
... or just buy a bunch of SP. Your choice.
This crap makes me sad. |
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
216
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:31:45 -
[540] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Damjan Fox wrote:To all of those, who rage about Eve becoming Pay2Win with this skill trading mechanic. Could you explain to me, why this method would be any more Pay2Win, than the current character bazaar already is? How often does this need explaining and why does this need explaining in the first fcking place. How stupid are folks? Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is. The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.
a) of course it is Pay2Win! I never said it wasn't. Just like the character bazaar. Buy PLEX, convert to ISK, skip skill training time. b) That was never part of my question. So before calling others "stupid", try to calm down a little on your way out...
Proposal: >>> New Inventory / Item Hangar <<<
|
|
Gregor Parud
Viziam
2227
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:41:11 -
[541] - Quote
Dibz wrote:I'm waiting, Greggy Weggy.... Did you delete your Youtube channel yet?
Again, if you really think that your logic makes sense then nothing can help you. Nice alt posting btw.
And yes it's gone. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3343
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:41:55 -
[542] - Quote
Rizz Razz wrote:Dibz wrote:Rizz Razz wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:
I hence really hope for a low price for the skill injector, say 100 AUR.
500 AUR will be minimum i think ... and 3500 AUR wont be a surprise :) But we will see ... Anything over 500 AUR would be a total fail IMO. Don't forget the Blood Raider Accelerator Test ! CCP recognized that Players are willing to pay up to 300 mio isk for just 50k effective Skillpoints ... so why u think u can buy 500k SP for under a billion isk? The blood raiders event was nothing close to what is being suggested. That was an insane event which everything started from and was sold in game, there was no point where RL cash was necessary for the accelerators. This by design Requires RL cash to be spent.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Gregor Parud
Viziam
2227
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:41:57 -
[543] - Quote
Damjan Fox wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Damjan Fox wrote:To all of those, who rage about Eve becoming Pay2Win with this skill trading mechanic. Could you explain to me, why this method would be any more Pay2Win, than the current character bazaar already is? How often does this need explaining and why does this need explaining in the first fcking place. How stupid are folks? Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is. The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept. a) of course it is Pay2Win! I never said it wasn't. Just like the character bazaar. Buy PLEX, convert to ISK, skip skill training time. b) That was never part of my question. So before calling others "stupid", try to calm down a little on your way out...
If you can't see the distinct difference then yeah I'll stick to what I stated. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
501
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:43:41 -
[544] - Quote
More money under the cover of helping new players instead changing old, outdated xp gaining system. If I was a new player skill packets will drive me away from the game rather than encourage to play. Why dimnish return at all? You already screwing vets with it, rellocating SP is useless on their high SP characters ( I don't mean creating alts here). If bringing more players with easy access to SP is healthy for the game let the credit cards decide, it all about money. Vets, what vets? If vets get more ppl to play with, it's good right? More money for you, more players on-line, win-win. I finally get what MMOG stands for: Microtransactions Multiplayer Online Game. In case of EvE hard to talk about Massive.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
155
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:44:54 -
[545] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I have been playing almost nine years. I have enough SP to do anything I want in this game. I do not see myself ever using this feature. With that said, I still support this change, because it will be good for some people and will improve their gaming experience. That, and, it is no different than selling or buying a character in the bazaar.
CCP, this idea is good and you should feel good. It's nice to find the occasional intelligent post in this waterfall of tears and salt.
It's becoming really telling that the people saying how this will kill the game seem to keep posting over and over, whereas we keep getting new faces popping in to say they like the change.
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
|
Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21002
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:51:17 -
[546] - Quote
So this not a done deal that wasn't a done deal, looks to be a done deal. Good job.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:52:40 -
[547] - Quote
Rizz Razz wrote:Dibz wrote:Rizz Razz wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:
I hence really hope for a low price for the skill injector, say 100 AUR.
500 AUR will be minimum i think ... and 3500 AUR wont be a surprise :) But we will see ... Anything over 500 AUR would be a total fail IMO. Don't forget the Blood Raider Accelerator Test ! CCP recognized that Players are willing to pay up to 300 mio isk for just 50k effective Skillpoints ... so why u think u can buy 500k SP for under a billion isk?
Sssssshhhhh!!
Realistically I know 500 is a lowball. 1000 AUR would be a more realistic sum.
Let's say I wanted to transfer 10M SP from one alt to another. If the character I want to transfer the skills to already has over 5M SP, then I will be taking a 20% loss in SP in the process, so I will need to extract 12M SP to make up for it. You would need 24 extractors for that, at a cost of 24,000 AUR, or roughly -ú92.
You can buy 10M SP characters on the bazaar for roughly 5B, or 5 plex at a cost of roughly -ú78.
So yeah, with the added benefits of injecting SP into the skills you want I'd say 1000 AUR seems about right... but I still hope it's less |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:54:37 -
[548] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Dibz wrote:I'm waiting, Greggy Weggy.... Did you delete your Youtube channel yet? Again, if you really think that your logic makes sense then nothing can help you. Nice alt posting btw. And yes it's gone.
I would have liked to have seen your explanation, but it seems you don't have one, so we'll leave it there. |
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:57:38 -
[549] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
it is amazing how many people with strong opinions on this subject don't know the character bazar exists
I think that is the reason why it felt more tolerable than skill trade, out of eyes is out of mind most of the time. From now on it will be there just laughing at you if you don-¦t take any advantage of it.
I think I can only compare it to introduction of eve-survival in mission descriptions. It is fun to have it as a third party site players can use if so aligned, but only as that.
BUT, that said...
Diminishing returns is still too much, 5% for all (or up to 50-80 mil SP) would be enough.
Players in EvE learn skills and change corps to avoid tax even less than that (but there will not be skill to avoid diminishing returns, so less is justified here).
One needs 15 mil SP to make a good char/alt anyways, loss of 2 million SP for that just feels a bit too harsh. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
550
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 13:57:55 -
[550] - Quote
Of course the character bazaar is also PTW, but at least with the bazaar, the consequences are built into the system. You cannot order a custom character with the details you would prefer but instead are forced to purchase a used car. You get everything associated with that used character - it's name, employment history, contract history etc - which, for now at least, you cannot change. (Coming soon: Name change for aurum.) There has been nothing introduced yet that would allow players to buy SP in this way - consequence free - to upgrade their existing characters. Comparisons between SP-trading & the bazaar are either misguided or deliberately obtuse. |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3101
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:02:04 -
[551] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you!
You have had a lot of feedback, mostly negative and have chosen to ignore it, so why are you requesting more feedback?
This is not a signature.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2233
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:04:04 -
[552] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:That, and, it is no different than selling or buying a character in the bazaar. Yes it very much is.
How is it more pay-to-win than purchasing a character? In the current scenario, I can sell one of my 2007 characters with 190m+ SP to someone willing to grind a ton of ISK or someone willing to buy a lot of PLEX. They instantly get a capable pilot which I spent years crafting. All that will cost me is one PLEX to transfer the character.
In the future, I could strip down all the SP from 190m+ SP to 5m SP and sell them to any number of players who want to grind for PLEX or pay for PLEX. That costs me however much AURUM (or ISK) to extract the skills. It costs them however much AURUM or ISK to inject them. How is that more pay-to-win than getting a 190m SP character?
The only thing CCP needs to tell us now is how much these extractors and injectors cost.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Mishra San
Forever Winter Special Snowflake Squad
25
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:09:21 -
[553] - Quote
Baron Holbach wrote:sorry ccp this idea is ********, i have nothign against skill trading as suck
but you should not able to remove skills you already have - i would be fine if you can remove free sp or add some way to make it (like no skill in training, hello free sp, or some special skill you can train to extract it - not just any random skill) also please add top cap - over what its not possible to add sp using that... like over 200m sp, no sp can be added using skill trading, otherwise im sure that Dr Caymus is soon no more top sp player in eve or whoever owns that title using years or very detailed sp training planing
even **** you plan do with capitals seems like heaven vs idea you can nuke your sp so you can sell it, i honestly promise i quit that game if you add thing like removing any skill you want from any char you own - its just plain wrong
Obligatory "Can I has your stuff, please?" goes here. |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:12:02 -
[554] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Of course the character bazaar is also PTW
It didn't use to be, most of the trades were done through the acquisition of isk through endless hours of mining, missions, etc, till PLEX was introduced and P2W came a reality.
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Vegare
Bitslix Lolsec Fockel
105
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:23:04 -
[555] - Quote
I really wonder, if everyone saying that this is good for new players can do so while keeping a straight face. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1796
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:25:43 -
[556] - Quote
Guys, it is a new micro transaction, better than paying 20 USD or even more 20 Euro or much more for 2 PLEX for a transfer of a char.
Smaller micro transactions like this will be available for everybody and push CCPs wallet.
Accept it, they have to make profit, otherwise they will shut down the server and we will not see any new releases :) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6924
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:30:21 -
[557] - Quote
Rizz Razz wrote:Don't forget the Blood Raider Accelerator Test ! CCP recognized that Players are willing to pay up to 300 mio isk for just 50k effective Skillpoints ... so why u think u can buy 500k SP for under a billion isk? So it came to that...
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Riel Ra'Dib
Casimir Associates
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:37:58 -
[558] - Quote
Perhaps there is an alternative to diminishing returns based on current SP and the "instant alt" concerns.
How about a cool down on Injector/extractor use? Reduced efficiency if you've injected/extracted skills withing the last ~10 days or so. That way you have to wait between uses and you could choose to train a couple of new Neural Enhancement skills to manage the cooldown/efficiency of the injections and extractors, kinda like jump clones or jump fatigue.
Perhaps a step further, make several types of extractors based on skill types (attribute) with different tech levels tied to yet another Neural Enhancement skill or five.
Just thinking out loud... |
Riel Ra'Dib
Casimir Associates
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:47:47 -
[559] - Quote
Or how about a simple implant for self extraction? Install a -3 Perception Tap and gain the ability to start burning skills that use that attribute for SP and slowly trickle the SP back into your unused pool for eventual extraction or reassignment. An anti-queue. |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Sustainable Whaling Inc.
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:48:00 -
[560] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:This by design Requires RL cash to be spent.
Yes, but not yours. Buy a PLEX for ISK, redeem PLEX for 3,500 Aurum, buy with Aurum whatever that thing is going to be called. Or, you know, just buy it with ISK directly off the market. You do not have to spend real life money on this and throw the pay to win **** around when you actually know what the stuff is going to cost.
PLEX needs real life money to be bought. PLEX is sold for ISK, which can then be used to buy ships. Is that pay to win? How are the ships of someone that buys them with ISK he got from PLEX any different than the ships someone bought with ratted ISK? When someone buys PLEX to buy officer modules for his ship, is that pay to win? By your logic, yes. Do those officer modules teach that guy how to fly his ship? Will he win to someone with worse modules but the skill to actually fly his ship? No. He'll blow up every single ******* time.
SP doesn't teach monkeys how to fly their ships properly, so this can hardly be called pay to win. This new system does bring a few certain problems with it, but it's certainly nothing that will kill the game, nor change it all that much.
And now, HTFU.
Linus
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
|
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4504
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:53:00 -
[561] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you! You have had a lot of feedback, mostly negative and have chosen to ignore it, so why are you requesting more feedback?
Just to make sure they could sweep it under the rug compared to money for skillpoints.
If you can't make a better game, just sell it in a different way. v-¦v
It's never what CCP say, rather what they do. And CCP are readying EVE to go F2P. You don't need a subscription to skill up if you can just buy the skillpoints, do you? And you can grind the ISK needed to buy those SP. So the game could be effectively F2P. "Premium" players would pay to get Free Skillpoints by passively earning them as now. Before that, all "Free Skillpoints" should have the same value to compete with injected SP, and thus CCP should get rid of attributes and learning implants. This idea already was talked in the past and likely we'll hear again this year...
The pot is heating up, froggies.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1438
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 14:59:30 -
[562] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
Why would you want to remove them entirely? Its your character ofc. And if you want to throw away the skill, that's on you. But I don't see why you would throw away injected skills since you had to pay isk for the skillbook.
Perhaps a better option would be an option to hide skills with 0 SP? This should be unchecked by default imo.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Albert Spear
Non scholae sed vitae
66
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:06:16 -
[563] - Quote
I would love to see a 3rd item that is a 1 time only item.
It could either be available based on time since the birth of the character or for a fee per million skill points.
This item would allow a player - 1 time and 1 time only for a toon to rearrange their skill points.
I don't know how many players have indicated that their initial allocation of skill points was wrong and that they feel like they can't use the character.
This one time tool would allow players to fix that allocation on the characters.
I originally thought that each toon should get 1 at the 6 month after birth point and that it should expire at the 1 year and 1 day point, but in discussions with other players, I have changed my mind, I think that there should be more flexibility to the tool.
I know, many of you will think this is crazy, but I think it will help retain people in the game, if they feel like they have messed up their initial toon. |
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:08:25 -
[564] - Quote
OK, so I've seen the posts now saying there is some issues when you buy a toon on the Bizaar. Last night, we had a guy that wanted to be recruited in our lounge that bought a 18mil Sp carrier toon for an unreasonable amount of money. He can't do anything with it. He's screwed and he admitted it. I don't feel bad for him. He made the choice. He was the one who didn't read the fine print when he bought the toon.
Good. I don't need that in my corp. Part of EVE is consquence and getting good at the game. If you're that dense that you can't buy a toon right why would I want a player who is new or has a young toon that is fixing his/her skillpoints? He still has months to go, but he's clearly not suited for what we do an a corp or alliance. Now, with this new... system... EVE can be over run by new/returning people who don't know what they are doing, dying because they don't un or getting rejected like that dude, and then quitting. Why? Because it's still not going to fix the skillpoint v skillset issue. |
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
25
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:09:51 -
[565] - Quote
Crazy Kitten wrote:
please add 2 new stats to a character sheet (similar to medals optionally public with default to being so): # sp injected # sp extracted
This is a splendid idea. Except it should be public like employment history.
Vasama |
cpt Varox
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
28
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:18:26 -
[566] - Quote
CCP, this sucks !!!! Yeah okay, it's a good ideea. Especially for old players that got atached to the game. It's a good oportunity to resculpture their characters after understanding the game better and knowing what they wanna do. But taking away 500k SP and giving only 150k back sucks. At least give half or 200k back . It's like giving a man in the desert a glass of water and tell him he can dring only half !! |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:27:15 -
[567] - Quote
Carper wrote:I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.
I know what you mean, I think a lot of people value the fact that their high SP character took them a long time to get where it is. In the original draft of this a new player got 500K sp and a high-sp toon got 50, meaning the high SP players at least had to pay 10x as much ISK/sp. Now with 150K sp they're only paying about 3.3 times as much ISK per skillpoint as a brand new player. But the spending power of a 10 year old toon is probably huge they should be able to earn a lot more ISK/hour if they don't have enough passive income streams by then to not need to grind any more.
If this feature is attractive enough for new players to buy a meaningful amount of skills then the rich players in the game will pretty much be able to have every skill going.
That's probably not a bad thing in the short term -- remember how removing the learning skills got a bunch of people to resub because they had millions of spare SP to spend. I imagine loads of people will come back, insta-train something new and have fun or just plex their accounts by pulling out that 'mining 5' skill they were so embarrassed about having. In the long term though I think the game will lose that 'must keep training skills' draw it has now and people will actually unsub more often instead of just plexing/subbing to train and play once a month. |
Dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
76
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:32:46 -
[568] - Quote
Carper wrote:I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.
As I said, a punch in the face for all veteran players...but sadly we are too few to be important to CCP. At least cut this stupid system at 80 million SP. You shouldn't buy SP if you' character has 80+ mil SP. That makes no sense at all and shows again that CCP only wants to extract the last $$$ out of a dying game.
EVE Veteran
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:43:13 -
[569] - Quote
I think you'll probably make more if you sell the skillpoints instead ;)
|
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
158
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:48:32 -
[570] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you! You have had a lot of feedback, mostly negative and have chosen to ignore it, so why are you requesting more feedback? The negative feedback came from the usual few hundred angry neckbeards that scream the walls down whenever they change anything at all.
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
|
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:52:17 -
[571] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you! You have had a lot of feedback, mostly negative and have chosen to ignore it, so why are you requesting more feedback?
That is indeed the question. It is reasonable to assume that so far their arguments have been so weak they see no need to even state them. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 15:56:34 -
[572] - Quote
Dosperado wrote:Carper wrote:I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'. As I said, a punch in the face for all veteran players...but sadly we are too few to be important to CCP. At least cut this stupid system at 80 million SP. You shouldn't be able to buy SP if you' character has 80+ mil SP. That makes no sense at all and shows again that CCP only wants to extract the last $$$ out of a dying game. Be prepared to see this character in a short amount of time in the character bazaaar
What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3103
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:12:32 -
[573] - Quote
One of the arguments in favour of, 'skill points for cash' seems to be that some veterans feel that they have some 'useless' skill points they want to sell, or move to an alt.
I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices.
It is all part of the 'Eve is tough and choices have consequences' mantra that has been a part of Eve since well before I started in early 2007.
It would be interesting to see if any of the current CSM membership have supported this, and why.
And where this years CSM candidates stand on this issue.
This is not a signature.
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:19:06 -
[574] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote: What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top.
That depends on the price of skills. Say it costs 2500 ISK per skillpoint to buy these (making a skillpack about the price of a PLEX). Then 10 million SP costs 30 billion ISK from 0 and more if you already have SPs, which is non-trivial. Being competitive at cruiser size ships with some options (i.e. not just one race/hull, not just one weapon system, etc) would probably need 15-20 million SP so that's quite a lot of ISK to either grind or buy.
What most people here have wrong, though, is that this is nothing at all like the character bazaar. With the bazaar I could only buy a whole new character. I had to get all the money, then buy the toon and put up with however it was configured skill wise. Then to buy more skills I need to have multiple toons or replace my toon again.
With the skillpoint trading system I can incrementally improve my character a little at a time and actually *use* those improvements while saving. Say it takes 6 months to get that 30 bil, I can be using half of the skills after 3 months by buying the first half of the skillpacks. Since there will be an isk/SP value on these things and there is already an isk/hour value on a lot of stuff then there will effectively be a SP/hour value on activities like incursion running, missions, ratting, etc.
So what this change really does is allow people to gain skills by playing the game instead of training them passively. OK so it's a bit lumpy -- you can't just buy gunnery V without buying other SPs along with it but it's the same thing. Want to train for today's FOTM setup? How many SP do you need? How many SP/hour to you make? Go grind those SPs. I think a lot of people probably *want* a change like that, particularly new players, but some of us probably liked the old system because we wouldn't get beaten so often by someone who just spent a lot longer grinding than we did ... |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1035
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:29:43 -
[575] - Quote
Clearly someone didn't get the memo but it still stand that pay to win is what will make EVE kaputt.
Someone really does want to push it above the pain threshold.
Congratulations!
You did it you finally dug your own grave. Oh well, after hubris comes the downfall and don't act surprised that you didn't see that coming.
You want to get more players by upsetting the ones that pay your bills. Did you consider how to keep them when your core base is gone and the only thing that would keep someone here long enough to make it worthwhile stops after a week or two?
I warned you. You did not listen.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:31:52 -
[576] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top.
That depends on the price of skills. Say it costs 2500 ISK per skillpoint to buy these (making a skillpack about the price of a PLEX). Then 10 million SP costs 30 billion ISK from 0 and more if you already have SPs, which is non-trivial. Being competitive at cruiser size ships with some options (i.e. not just one race/hull, not just one weapon system, etc) would probably need 15-20 million SP so that's quite a lot of ISK to either grind or buy.
A titan is expensive. Therefore there will not be many titans.
|
Useful Alt
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:47:16 -
[577] - Quote
WTB 500b worth of SP
to be sold for 1T
rinse and repeat
this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market
very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision
|
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
268
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 16:58:06 -
[578] - Quote
Julien Brellier wrote:Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day.
The Character Bizarre was already pay to win. At least this way RMT becomes more difficult
So I approve!
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again.
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:01:21 -
[579] - Quote
Useful Alt wrote:WTB 500b worth of SP
to be sold for 1T
rinse and repeat
this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market
very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision
Sounds too good to be true doesn't it? Well the problem is that trading, etc just generates more demand, which generates more supply as people plex an alt, train, rip, sell, repeat. Provided the skillpacket price stays well above the cost of training skills (1 plex per month plus the extractor things) people can keep doing more alts and supplying more and more SPs. Supply is effectively infinite, I can always make more alts if they can pay for their own PLEX so easily.
But the demand for PLEX will keep going up and up, pushing the price of it higher and higher until it costs nearly as much to PLEX for a month and rip as you can make selling the SP. And I bet the ceiling price on a skillpacket will be pretty high. The only thing that will push PLEX back down is more supply of PLEX coming from people putting more RL money into the game, perhaps to buy more SPs.
But will there be enough new RL money from this to compensate for the ones who used to pay multiple subs but can now run their alt accounts for free if they don't want them to gain SPs? I'll be paying *less* RL money a month not more after this change because I don't need to train on all my accounts, I just use them for convenience.
But no doubt some people will get very rich on this at the beginning ...
|
Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1438
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:05:30 -
[580] - Quote
Okay, I've read enough salt-encrusted posts by entitled whiners.
This is my main. There are many like it. But this one is mine. I would never consider selling it. But I would consider selling off some misplaced SP because I had no one to tell me what was good to train or even for what learning skills were used back in 2009. I have completely wasted SP in mining and industry on this toon. I want to sell them.
I really don't care what my SP total is, other than as some sort of vague e-peen wagging. Sure it feels good to look at it and occasionally take it out and blow my load all over someone. But it is not what makes Soldarius Soldarius. It is, like everything else on the character sheet, a part of the character. Even if I do not choose to use any of the various character modification options that CCP has given us, I am glad to know they are there. So if I want to modify my clothes, my portrait, my ships, or soon my SP allocations, I can.
If there is one thing I have learned about Eve, it is that your irl wallet size is not directly proportional to your skill in game. TMC, EN24, and others are packed full of articles showcasing potatoes that think eve is p2w. They pull out dad's credit card and plex their way to that all purple marauder and think they are invincible.
I don't care how many SP you have or how many purples you have. If you don't know how to play the game and whip out your wallet on day 1, you will still get #HAZED mercilessly until you either HTFU or gb2wow.
On the other hand, if this gives a noob some incentive to farm up for a bit and accelerate himself into some of those low-SP doctrine ships like Svipuls, Caracals, T1 logi, or a Celestis for FU fleet, I'm okay with that. I don't doubt for a minute the most wealthy entities will throw injectors onto the market at cost in their local trade hub. Or maybe even give them away as an incentive to join. Jita injectors will get manipulated. New stuff always does.
As far as SP-farming, if it is profitable, I will do it. For me, that would be if I can make enough to pay for the extractors for one month of training + 1 PLEX per account. I might even pay PLEX to do multi-character training if there is enough profit in it. My goal would be to net 1 PLEX per month per character.
One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
|
Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:17:23 -
[581] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:
One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea.
This would have been even more powerful in the days of clone grades. "Oh look Boat lost FC V, again. Well I can sell him the skill back for a premium and remind him to upgrade his clone this time." |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2047
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:22:13 -
[582] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:Useful Alt wrote:WTB 500b worth of SP
to be sold for 1T
rinse and repeat
this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market
very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision
Sounds too good to be true doesn't it? Well the problem is that trading, etc just generates more demand, which generates more supply as people plex an alt, train, rip, sell, repeat. Provided the skillpacket price stays well above the cost of training skills (1 plex per month plus the extractor things) people can keep doing more alts and supplying more and more SPs. Supply is effectively infinite, I can always make more alts if they can pay for their own PLEX so easily. But the demand for PLEX will keep going up and up, pushing the price of it higher and higher until it costs nearly as much to PLEX for a month and rip as you can make selling the SP. And I bet the ceiling price on a skillpacket will be pretty high. The only thing that will push PLEX back down is more supply of PLEX coming from people putting more RL money into the game, perhaps to buy more SPs. But will there be enough new RL money from this to compensate for the ones who used to pay multiple subs but can now run their alt accounts for free if they don't want them to gain SPs? I'll be paying *less* RL money a month not more after this change because I don't need to train on all my accounts, I just use them for convenience. But no doubt some people will get very rich on this at the beginning ... So will I, probably even create more "free" alts to gank with, since they need only a limited amount of SP anyway. And who will actually pay the PLEX then? Some newbie scrub will now pay my ganking because he thinks he needs more SP to be competitive? Nice stuff CCP!
Even if it does not pay the full PLEX, so I just sub occasionally, but I will in the end funnel less money to CCP and not more, this is for sure.
And to all the people who want to PLEX AND train? Sorry, no luck for you, no more f2p except if you are space rich and can afford the insane PLEX price.
It's not like no one wrote this in the last thread. It seams CCP is totally ok with it or thinks it will somehow not happen.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:27:19 -
[583] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?
My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-
$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots
$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200
My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum Why would the injector cost the same (actually more at peak training rate) as the SP?
The injector is the product created by the extractor + 500K SP and I supposed you can charge whatever you can get for it
I was thinking the extractor will be on a par with a dual training certificate - tho you may be right, maybe they will be cheaper.
I was wondering if it will kill off the character bazaar because why would you ever sell a whole character created by dual training an alt when you could break it up for greater profit also will characters trained for a specific role still be worth more that any old meat Popsicle with the same number of skill points
I suppose their standings may be worth something, for when you need to put up a POS....Oh Wait... lol
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:39:24 -
[584] - Quote
One question - Can I extract 5SP then hit accept - then scam someone with it?
|
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
145
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:45:35 -
[585] - Quote
Removed off topic post and those quoting them.
ISD Max Trix
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Evemails.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
374
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:47:48 -
[586] - Quote
Back on the first page of this threadnaught I posted my support for this new feature. In this post, I will attempt to state my reason why I support it.
Things I currently can do with real-world money (and without violating the EULA/TOS):
- Sub multiple accounts and multi-box them (but not input broadcast, of course.)
- Purchase PLEX/AUR, to be used directly or sell PLEX/AUR for ISK, then...
- purchase an officer fit Raven Navy.
- purchase a super capital pilot, or a boosting alt, or a Falcon alt, or a subcap combat pilot.
- purchase a Nyx or a Titan.
- purchase a thousand Atrons to welp over and over (I'm looking at you, watch yoself) (
- (new) purchase a Skill Injector item.
- purchase multi-pilot training.
To a certain extent, all of the above are pay-to-win. By spending real-world money, a player can acquire in-game abilities or items much faster than somebody who simply does a single sub or PLEXes a single account. But none of them are an "I win" button. They do not convey to the purchaser the skills to effectively use those purchased items or in-game abilities. They do not give the purchaser respect from other players such that they can lead an alliance, corp or fleet, or be a sought-after fleetmember. They do not give the purchaser the ability to fly a 300k EHP, 2k DPS, 4k m/s Vagabond. They do not break the game. Any of them, new or old. They do not drive away new players. They do not drive away old players.
When I first started playing nearly two years ago, I purchased two PLEX and sold them for ISK (about 650 million back then) and a multi-pilot training cert to have a market alt. By doing so, I did not "win" by any possible definition.
So that's why I think this is not a bad thing. But why is it a good thing?
I will use Skill Injectors when they become available, certainly. (The extent to which depends on the price.) I will use them on my main, which is this toon, to train any off-remap skills if I feel I need them. I will use them on my alt which recently started a long skill-plan. (I could pick up a character today from the bazaar that will do what I plan for my alt, but I have no interest in having a character I didn't start myself. Then end result will be the same either way - and again, neither are an "I win" button, regardless of whether I spend real-world money or in-game earned ISK to acquire them.) I do not mind spending my in-game/real-world funds on items that provide me with a richer, more varied game experience. The coolest thing about EVE, in my opinion, is that things are different every time I log on. Different hostiles visit our system in different ships. Different fleetmates are logged on with me. I can fly either an Atron or a Domi depending on what I'm looking to accomplish. At some point, I'd also like the ability to choose between, for example a Domi and an Apoc - again not so that I'll have any increased ability to win any engagement (that has more to do with my knowledge of tactics, my situational awareness, and my ability to ruse my opponent,) but to offer up different kinds of engagements I can participate in.
|
Nicola Romanoff
Raising the Bar Of Sound Mind
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 17:49:14 -
[587] - Quote
As others have said I don't want a bunch of skills sitting at 0 in my queue, if they are gone, I want them gone. I would like to be able to rearrange the skills of my own character without so harsh a penalty, even if it was a one off again how others have said, how much is this going to cost in AUR |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:03:51 -
[588] - Quote
Nicola Romanoff wrote:As others have said I don't want a bunch of skills sitting at 0 in my queue, if they are gone, I want them gone. I would like to be able to rearrange the skills of my own character without so harsh a penalty, even if it was a one off again how others have said, how much is this going to cost in AUR
I think Vets got the short end of the stick with this one - I would also like to see a skills re-mapper.
Maybe a whole character re-map like the attributes remap or maybe something like the extractor where you could store 20million SP before putting them BACK into whatever skills you want. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3107
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:09:21 -
[589] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:Julien Brellier wrote:Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day. The Character Bizarre was already pay to win. At least this way RMT becomes more difficult So I approve!
Do keep up, my dear chap.
The official line is that 'pay for skills' is to 'help' new players.
RMT is not the rationale this time.
The Character Bazaar was to make RMT more difficult.
This is not a signature.
|
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
291
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:13:18 -
[590] - Quote
I thought long and hard about this, and I only really found two reasons I would personally consider doing this. #1, close the character bazaar to stop name/reputation recycling. #2, a step in a transition to a free to play business model, which is now the dominant business model in the MMO market, and may make you feel left behind.
Instead of repeating that this is not a good idea, and a risky very unpopular one, or think you suddenly started disliking scammers, I'm just going assume it's #2
Therefore, I'm going to suggest, this system of yours needs some sort of limit, based on time, say, having a cap on skillpoints people are allowed to add to a character, based on either char age, time since the system was introduced, or preferably a combination of those two.
This would enable the free to play business model transition, while also preventing rich(either RL or ingame) players from simply buying themselves god level characters, As well as preventing alliances with more money than things to spend money on, from turning their key players into god level chars. You know that will happen with no limit, especially during tournament season. it's just a question of who will do it first.
Also, would you actually want people to buy themselves god characters, and then get bored and leave?
In an MMO, even in a free to play one, one of the main things you want as a developer, is keeping people around. A player that got everything he wanted immediately, has no goals, gets bored, and leaves, instead of staying as a paying repeat customer. Every single MMO I played, even ones that let you pay for power, had some system to cap player progression, to prevent them from speeding through content too fast. Eve's skillpoint system, akin to levelling in other games, always acted as a power cap, limited by time. And no, the caracter bazaar dosnt quite count as an exception, talking to people ingame reveals that only a small minority knows it even exists, skill point packs will be noticed by EVERYONE. Plus the char bazaar loses you your reputation, for better or worse, and for many players, sense of self. Buying skillpoints directly bypasses all of those mental checkpoints.
I would add a time based "skill point injection allowance", rather than any currently suggested system limitation, though perhaps a combination wouldn't be a bad thing.
Please dont turn eve online into a pure "pay for power" style game. That stuff cant end well. |
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:27:00 -
[591] - Quote
Eraza wrote:
Therefore, I'm going to suggest, this system of yours needs some sort of limit, based on time, say, having a cap on skillpoints people are allowed to add to a character, based on either char age, time since the system was introduced, or preferably a combination of those two.
I quite like this. I think skillpoints are probably the most valued thing in game. Look at the recruitment adds to see that the first thing a lot of people say about themselves is how many SP they have. But most of that value probably comes from the fact that skillpoints are difficult to obtain and you can't just have as many as you want no matter what you do. If people can simply buy as many as they want this gets devalued but put a limit on it and it might not be so bad.
Say you had a limit of 2 skillpacks per week. That would mean a new player could add about 4 million SPs in a month, which is quite a lot. It would then drop off as you get over 5 million SP and would probably mean you'd train at about 2x normal speed (but at quite a lot of expense). That means to have a 50 million SP character will still take the best part of a year instead of between 2 and 2 1/2 as it is now. As people get above 80 million SP they wouldn't be able to add more than 300K SP/week, which would less than double the training speed. People with 150 million SP characters would still feel like they have something special.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:27:45 -
[592] - Quote
Eraza wrote:
Also, would you actually want people to buy themselves god characters, and then get bored and leave?
but if you run a MMO this is exactly what you do want to do - generate a revenue stream for player progression by selling the path to the end game.
The bored and leave part or churn rate is handled via content release - Blizzard does this really well with the regular introduction of new content to keep their God Toon owners happy. (They also have an income stream from vanity items)
|
Conventia Underking
Noir. Mercenary Coalition
153
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:29:25 -
[593] - Quote
I'd like the ability to remove skills entirely once they are at 0 skill points, even if it costs isk and I don't get anything back from doing it. Other than that, I'm fully on-board with the plan. (Oh, and please put this on sisi so people can try to break it before it goes live.)
For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!
The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
|
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2878
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:31:13 -
[594] - Quote
From the devblog: "We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release."
I feel this is disingenuous. I read the comments to the previous devblog and have also been watching the playerbase attitude toward this topic on other threads. The general consensus seems to be at least slightly more opposed than supportive.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
|
Ein Herje
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:36:54 -
[595] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:When i first read this dev blog, i thought its Aprils fool's day ... Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits [...] wat I remember that feedback was mostly negative.
I also thought is was a joke haha, but here we are everything will go to hell now. They should at least make a cap for it something like 50-80 mill sp. |
Luther Fairfax
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:44:01 -
[596] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
Beat me to it, this needs to be a thing |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
318
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 18:52:12 -
[597] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:From the devblog: "We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release."
I feel this is disingenuous. I read the comments to the previous devblog and have also been watching the playerbase attitude toward this topic on other threads. The general consensus seems to be at least slightly more opposed than supportive.
It's obvious propaganda CCP is making up because they fully intended on implementing this game ending feature regardless of what the player based wanted. True statistics would show the ratio to be more like 65% against and 35% in favor, but CCP no longer cares for the 65% and has decided to completely ignore them. So yea to them (CCP) the overwhelming support they are referring to is the 35% in favor of this garbage integrating into Eve.
What this means is that CCP no longer has anymore confidence in themselves to improve Eve to satisfy it's player base anymore and has decided to milk out their only cash cow while it still has milk left. In short, Eve is finished!
|
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1857
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:01:37 -
[598] - Quote
What price will Skill Extractor have in AUR... if to big it wont be to popular ?
Akrasjel Lanate
CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate
Naquatech Syndicate
Citizen of Solitude
|
James Tiberius Kirk
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:04:50 -
[599] - Quote
At least initially, >40m SP (or some other arbitrary SP) characters shouldn't even be able to inject SP.
I get that this is coming and there is no way to stop it, but at least try prevent this from exploding and restrict the usage until you get some data.
Imho only <20m characters should be able to use this.
Also a relevant topic, will attribute points ever get removed after years of speculation and statements of intent from CCP? This affects skill extractor cost, plex price, and the entire LP store market. |
Papa Django
Anoikis Freelancers
132
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:07:13 -
[600] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost?
It is the last relevant question.
Any debate before the answer is completly irrelevant (if we ignore the bittervet ocean of tears).
If the goal is to help newbros, the AUR price must be low. If the price is too high, it will only help rich people (irl) and rich people (ig) to build insta-alts.
500K sp is 8 days of training for a x1 skill. It is litterally nothing. If the base cost is something like 200m (after AUR conversion), the base price for 500K sp will be 200m + 1/4 PLEX (around).
So actually it will be something like 450/500m.
2b for a full month of insta training (2m sp).
Is this will help newbros ? |
|
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:07:38 -
[601] - Quote
Obviously skill extractors should be an aurum priced item. Thus removing PLEX, ISK and skillpoints from the economy while encouraging injecting additional RL money at some point in the overall process.
Save EVE. Spend more RL money to keep CCP support healthy. |
Soltys
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:11:59 -
[602] - Quote
Carper wrote:I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.
The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.
I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.
What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.
And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.
Looking at your self-botting XP bar at it fills up to the right in this de-facto pay2pointlessly_wait game is the "heart of the game" for you and "the remaining sense of achievment"?
In this game ?
Are you even for real ?
Quote:[What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?
To play the ******* game and do what it offers that you like, whatever that would be for you ? SP is a stupid timewall serving no purpose whatsoever. Besides making you wait for the sake of waiting - far too long for some things than the others.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:12:33 -
[603] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices. In what sense are you "living with those choices" anyhow? It's not like real life, where your life span is finite, you learn better when you are younger, and society tends to make it difficult to switch careers late in life.
Right now, training takes the same time no matter what else your trained for however long earlier. The only "consequence" you suffer is that if your goals change then compared to a hypothetical you who had your new goals from the start your character will be older when your reach them. Basically, if you compare your training to the the ideal "from newbie to X" skill plan, then your detour to other things has "cost you time". But that's just in your mind.
It would be different if for example there was a hard cap on SP, so that you could train only say 50M SP and no more. Or if training speed slowed down significantly as you acquired more SP. Then there would be real consequences of "wasted skill training". As it is, there are basically none.
What skill point injection does is to allow players who have either ISK or unwanted SP (and AUR) to train into new skills more rapidly. That's all.
If you think that's "evil", then I would suggest that you rip out all those implants that make you train faster. I bet you paid for those with ISK... This is simply another method of paying ISK to get skills faster. And unlike implants, which definitely increase the total SP growth in the game, these injectors may decrease it (though that depends on how much of the SP comes from active players extracting unwanted SPs, and how much from SP farming alts). |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:15:47 -
[604] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices. In what sense are you "living with those choices" anyhow? It's not like real life, where your life span is finite, you learn better when you are younger, and society tends to make it difficult to switch careers late in life. Right now, training takes the same time no matter what else your trained for however long earlier. The only "consequence" you suffer is that if your goals change then compared to a hypothetical you who had your new goals from the start your character will be older when your reach them. Basically, if you compare your training to the the ideal "from newbie to X" skill plan, then your detour to other things has "cost you time". But that's just in your mind. It would be different if for example there was a hard cap on SP, so that you could train only say 50M SP and no more. Or if training speed slowed down significantly as you acquired more SP. Then there would be real consequences of "wasted skill training". As it is, there are basically none. What skill point injection does is to allow players who have either ISK or unwanted SP (and AUR) to train into new skills more rapidly. That's all. If you think that's "evil", then I would suggest that you rip out all those implants that make you train faster. I bet you paid for those with ISK... This is simply another method of paying ISK to get skills faster. And unlike implants, which definitely increase the total SP growth in the game, these injectors may decrease it (though that depends on how much of the SP comes from active players extracting unwanted SPs, and how much from SP farming alts).
You sound like a goon alt.
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance
308
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:17:00 -
[605] - Quote
Sissy Fuzz wrote:Saisin wrote:King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development. What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not? Please tell, how is it good for everyone?
Having younger players given the option to get into ships faster is good for retention, which in turn helps all of us as more players remain engaged with the game, and there is nothing worng with CCP making money of such option to continue make our game better.
your turn now, tell me why you think it is not good for everyone?
Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XI
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
Freedom fighters, unite with Chao3
|
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
406
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:21:14 -
[606] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I was wondering if it will kill off the character bazaar because why would you ever sell a whole character created by dual training an alt when you could break it up for greater profit also will characters trained for a specific role still be worth more that any old meat Popsicle with the same number of skill points
That is something I have wondering about. It will depend on the relative cost of injectors compared to buying a character. Speculating, it may mean most of the low SP characters disappear from the bazaar and just 80M SP plus, highly focused characters remain, trading at a premium (due to the diminishing returns). But I don't think anyone really has a good idea how this is going to play out. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:34:00 -
[607] - Quote
Aerious wrote:You sound like a goon alt. So this is what the thread has come to, and we haven't even reached 100 pages.
voetius wrote:That is something I have wondering about. It will depend on the relative cost of injectors compared to buying a character. Speculating, it may mean most of the low SP characters disappear from the bazaar and just 80M SP plus, highly focused characters remain, trading at a premium (due to the diminishing returns). But I don't think anyone really has a good idea how this is going to play out. It very nicely fills out a niche for low SP characters, and for covering several bases (since it's SP you allocate).
Which is not what the bazaar currently covers, due to the obvious fixed transaction fee.
I'm glad we've moved on from just exploring the bazaar.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:35:15 -
[608] - Quote
Saisin wrote: Having younger players given the option to get into ships faster is good for retention, which in turn helps all of us as more players remain engaged with the game, and there is nothing worng with CCP making money of such option to continue make our game better.
your turn now, tell me why you think it is not good for everyone?
If thats the the goal of this I doubt it will go far. PLEX will be stupidly expensive (and will get worse as more skins etc are added) and you will get the odd stupidly rich person spending a fortune to get a 100+ mill SP char because they cant wait.
If all you want to do is give newbies a leg up then give them 10mill sp to distribute as they see fit as soon as they subscribe.
If this trading has to be put through there should be either a cap on how many you can apply (eg 20million) or a cut off point of say 50mill sp where you cant add any more. There are people out there who will spend the money to max out a character - you only have to look back a few years when someone bought a mass load of PLEX and bought a load of titans for his alliance. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:36:40 -
[609] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:If this trading has to be put through there should be either a cap on how many you can apply (eg 20million) or a cut off point of say 50mill sp where you cant add any more. There are people out there who will spend the money to max out a character - you only have to look back a few years when someone bought a mass load of PLEX and bought a load of titans for his alliance. Yeah their alliance would definitely get a kick out of that guy's amazing character. It would really give them an advantage in the new "SP on field" type of engagement.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1905
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:40:58 -
[610] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Sissy Fuzz wrote:Saisin wrote:King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development. What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not? Please tell, how is it good for everyone? Having younger players given the option to get into ships faster is good for retention, which in turn helps all of us as more players remain engaged with the game, and there is nothing worng with CCP making money of such option to continue make our game better. your turn now, tell me why you think it is not good for everyone?
Because many many people are saying it isn't good for them, therefore it isn't.
More specifically:
It degrades the loyalty of older players It milks new players for cash in the belief that buying SP means they will be better at the game It puts players who can't afford to buy SP at a disadvantage in terms of skills to those who can afford it It heavily favours space rich players It is the thin end of the wedge, just wait for the calls that it doesn't go far enough (we'll have World of Spaceships in the near future since taken to the extreme skills will become meaningless) Any of the myriad of reasons against this that were voiced in the not so overwhelmingly positive previous feedback thread.
You may think there is a degree of resigned sarcasm in most of my posts on this topic but really there isn't. It's more of a Masters, possibly even a PhD... |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:41:36 -
[611] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:If all you want to do is give newbies a leg up then give them 10mill sp to distribute as they see fit as soon as they subscribe. Well I'd be hardpressed to argue for this over such an alternative.
Though it is amusing to see the regdate confusion.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3113
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:04:20 -
[612] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Okay, I've read enough salt-encrusted posts by entitled whiners.
This is my main. There are many like it. But this one is mine. I would never consider selling it. But I would consider selling off some misplaced SP because I had no one to tell me what was good to train or even for what learning skills were used back in 2009. I have completely wasted SP in mining and industry on this toon. I want to sell them.
I really don't care what my SP total is, other than as some sort of vague e-peen wagging. Sure it feels good to look at it and occasionally take it out and blow my load all over someone. But it is not what makes Soldarius Soldarius. It is, like everything else on the character sheet, a part of the character. Even if I do not choose to use any of the various character modification options that CCP has given us, I am glad to know they are there. So if I want to modify my clothes, my portrait, my ships, or soon my SP allocations, I can.
If there is one thing I have learned about Eve, it is that your irl wallet size is not directly proportional to your skill in game. TMC, EN24, and others are packed full of articles showcasing potatoes that think eve is p2w. They pull out dad's credit card and plex their way to that all purple marauder and think they are invincible.
I don't care how many SP you have or how many purples you have. If you don't know how to play the game and whip out your wallet on day 1, you will still get #HAZED mercilessly until you either HTFU or gb2wow.
On the other hand, if this gives a noob some incentive to farm up for a bit and accelerate himself into some of those low-SP doctrine ships like Svipuls, Caracals, T1 logi, or a Celestis for FU fleet, I'm okay with that. I don't doubt for a minute the most wealthy entities will throw injectors onto the market at cost in their local trade hub. Or maybe even give them away as an incentive to join. Jita injectors will get manipulated. New stuff always does.
As far as SP-farming, if it is profitable, I will do it. For me, that would be if I can make enough to pay for the extractors for one month of training + 1 PLEX per account. I might even pay PLEX to do multi-character training if there is enough profit in it. My goal would be to net 1 PLEX per month per character.
One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea.
Then CCP shoyuld just gift new players X amount of skill points.
This is not a signature.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3113
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:07:08 -
[613] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Sissy Fuzz wrote:Saisin wrote:King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development. What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not? Please tell, how is it good for everyone? Having younger players given the option to get into ships faster is good for retention, which in turn helps all of us as more players remain engaged with the game, and there is nothing worng with CCP making money of such option to continue make our game better. your turn now, tell me why you think it is not good for everyone?
Because, as others have repeatedly stated, buying the skill points to fly, say a Battleship, is NOT the same thing as knowing how to use one.
At least as it is, by the time one gets enough sp to fly a BS, one will probably have aquired some in-game experience and have at least some idea how to use a BS.
This is not a signature.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:10:05 -
[614] - Quote
So many people tearfully defending the newbies by trying to shoot down this new mechanic.
I feel so touched.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Dr Conrad Murray
BACKUPLEGION
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:10:10 -
[615] - Quote
Morkan Damosty wrote:I didn't read the Dev post carrefully enough.
Its OK, neither did 90% of the other people in this thread.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
839
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:10:41 -
[616] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Soldarius wrote:Okay, I've read enough salt-encrusted posts by entitled whiners.
This is my main. There are many like it. But this one is mine. I would never consider selling it. But I would consider selling off some misplaced SP because I had no one to tell me what was good to train or even for what learning skills were used back in 2009. I have completely wasted SP in mining and industry on this toon. I want to sell them.
I really don't care what my SP total is, other than as some sort of vague e-peen wagging. Sure it feels good to look at it and occasionally take it out and blow my load all over someone. But it is not what makes Soldarius Soldarius. It is, like everything else on the character sheet, a part of the character. Even if I do not choose to use any of the various character modification options that CCP has given us, I am glad to know they are there. So if I want to modify my clothes, my portrait, my ships, or soon my SP allocations, I can.
If there is one thing I have learned about Eve, it is that your irl wallet size is not directly proportional to your skill in game. TMC, EN24, and others are packed full of articles showcasing potatoes that think eve is p2w. They pull out dad's credit card and plex their way to that all purple marauder and think they are invincible.
I don't care how many SP you have or how many purples you have. If you don't know how to play the game and whip out your wallet on day 1, you will still get #HAZED mercilessly until you either HTFU or gb2wow.
On the other hand, if this gives a noob some incentive to farm up for a bit and accelerate himself into some of those low-SP doctrine ships like Svipuls, Caracals, T1 logi, or a Celestis for FU fleet, I'm okay with that. I don't doubt for a minute the most wealthy entities will throw injectors onto the market at cost in their local trade hub. Or maybe even give them away as an incentive to join. Jita injectors will get manipulated. New stuff always does.
As far as SP-farming, if it is profitable, I will do it. For me, that would be if I can make enough to pay for the extractors for one month of training + 1 PLEX per account. I might even pay PLEX to do multi-character training if there is enough profit in it. My goal would be to net 1 PLEX per month per character.
One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea. Then CCP shoyuld just gift new players X amount of skill points.
THIS ... If CCP are so concerned about the new player then they should gift them say ...20million ?. SP ...and how they use them ...well that entirely up to them to figure out wether in a corp with advice ..or by their own judgment . simple solution to this problem .
|
Bonz Andrard
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services The WINGSPAN Logo Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:13:42 -
[617] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Saisin wrote:Sissy Fuzz wrote:Saisin wrote:King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development. What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not? Please tell, how is it good for everyone? Having younger players given the option to get into ships faster is good for retention, which in turn helps all of us as more players remain engaged with the game, and there is nothing worng with CCP making money of such option to continue make our game better. your turn now, tell me why you think it is not good for everyone? Because, as others have repeatedly stated, buying the skill points to fly, say a Battleship, is NOT the same thing as knowing how to use one.
And while I understand that being able to sit in a ship is not the same as knowing how to fly it well but only flying that ship is going to teach me how to do that...and the ability to reduce the amount of time to get into a ship is a big point to people joining the game. I don't want to spend Real world money on the game past the point of the sub but I don't have to. I can play the game to earn isk and speed up my skills. Why is that a bad thing?
|
d0cTeR9
Oceanic Death Squad SpaceMonkey's Alliance
305
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:23:08 -
[618] - Quote
It's amazing how small minded some people are when playing a multiplayer online spaceship game that connects people throughout the world of all ages, races and genders.
And yet... so small minded they can't see past their own nose...
Good job CCP at producing a fair and non-destructive way for people to progress in the game, or simply move around personal SP. It's easy to tell you guys had to scratch your heads on that one!
Been around since the beginning.
|
David Semris
House Semris
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:25:07 -
[619] - Quote
So the last equal thing in the game will be gone (abandoning your identity through Bazaar was totally different level). Now it will be even more about the amount of accounts/alts and real life money. |
Luther Fairfax
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:34:39 -
[620] - Quote
Congratulations CCP, Eve is now P2W.
**** you
|
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:40:22 -
[621] - Quote
Aerious wrote:You sound like a goon alt. This is my main and I'm mostly playing solo explorer in high sec and wormholes at the moment. That's not very Goon-ish, I would guess. (Though admittedly the only things I know about Goons is what I read in reddit, which is probably not an unbiased source...)
I find it somewhat strange that people assume one must be this or that to like the idea of skill injections. Pretty much from my first day in EVE, I have never failed to look in disgust at my skill queue, thinking "Geez, it takes me how long to be able to do/fit/use that?!"
I also have no real idea why people seem to think that more alts is a problem. If an older player plays more because he can now have a "day one competent ganking alt", or whatever, then why should that worry me? More people playing, more stuff happening - sounds good to me? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:47:50 -
[622] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Aerious wrote:You sound like a goon alt. This is my main and I'm mostly playing solo explorer in high sec and wormholes at the moment. That's not very Goon-ish, I would guess. (Though admittedly the only things I know about Goons is what I read in reddit, which is probably not an unbiased source...) I find it somewhat strange that people assume one must be this or that to like the idea of skill injections. Take a look at Querns.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1423
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:55:01 -
[623] - Quote
voetius wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:
I was wondering if it will kill off the character bazaar because why would you ever sell a whole character created by dual training an alt when you could break it up for greater profit also will characters trained for a specific role still be worth more that any old meat Popsicle with the same number of skill points
That is something I have wondering about. It will depend on the relative cost of injectors compared to buying a character. Speculating, it may mean most of the low SP characters disappear from the bazaar and just 80M SP plus, highly focused characters remain, trading at a premium (due to the diminishing returns). But I don't think anyone really has a good idea how this is going to play out.
making new players need to pay to jump up after making them pay a subscription is not good for player retention its very very bad. and they will not be able to buy these items just by earning the isk in game as us with isk will make sure the prices stay high forcing any newbro to have to plex to do it.
as well new players getting into ships faster on its own is not good for retention. ever since they lowered the prerecks for BBs i have delt with new bros who run into them making just enough isk to afford one by the time they can fly the hull then lose it in a level four because they don't understand that having the skills to fly the hull is not the same as having skills to fly it properly. This normaly happens around the time they are starting to think of subscribing but now they have just lost all or most of the isk they have earned up to this point strongly affecting that choice.
progression is a very good thing paying to skip that progression is not i can remember when i decided to train into a carrier it was something i was very excited about so for the 10 months it took me to train into it i was looking up every guid and video involving one. This wound up making me not only more prepared to fly one but also giving me an understanding of how often i would actually wind up using it. Had i just bought the SP and plexed a carrier odds are i would of lost it been up set that i hardly get to use the thing and have a very bitter tast that i just spent upwards of $100(if prices are reasonable) on something i cant use.
but overall i dont think this has anything to do with the newbro thats just the rapping paper CCP is selling this with this is just to make a quick buck of anyone who is addicted to instant gratification. This change in no way benefits us players and only benefits CCP.
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:56:25 -
[624] - Quote
Papa Django wrote:Jackie Fisher wrote:How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost? It is the last relevant question. Any debate before the answer is completly irrelevant (if we ignore the bittervet ocean of tears). If the goal is to help newbros, the AUR price must be low. If the price is too high, it will only help rich people (irl) and rich people (ig) to build insta-alts. 500K sp is 8 days of training for a x1 skill. ?
What is this a lecture on drug addiction? ROFLMAO. Yeah after 5 SP injections to new toon, this probably would become the newest EVE player addiction. For some players it might become a hazard irl budgetary process. Not CCP or other player problem. Addictive people will always seek out something in which to overinvest. I have met a lot of ship collectors in EVE obsessively buying PLEX so they can own every edition of every hull, every skin, etc. Others buy real drugs or collectable action figures (dolls for guys). Not our problem to solve.
Let's be honest this feature is primarily for the benefit of vets creating new gank toons. With 3-4 injections, you have a 1 hour old toon with gank destroyer skills and no identifiable reputation or negative standings. Perfect for looking innocent to otherwise wary vets that you want to stalk and gank. Guess what? As long as aurum and extractors on the market , most of us earn enough in game ISK to afford this on regular basis.
Fairness regardless of real life circumstance? Sandbox. EVE is NOT fair in every detail. Some people get the lucky drops and others don't. But if it makes you feel better, who has the biggest tool (SP or ISK) only means much when the player knows how to use that tool well. A fair number of players will be very slow or never get that. Plenty of vets are still lousy at EVE. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3113
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:57:39 -
[625] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices. In what sense are you "living with those choices" anyhow? It's not like real life, where your life span is finite, you learn better when you are younger, and society tends to make it difficult to switch careers late in life. Right now, training takes the same time no matter what else your trained for however long earlier. The only "consequence" you suffer is that if your goals change then compared to a hypothetical you who had your new goals from the start your character will be older when your reach them. Basically, if you compare your training to the the ideal "from newbie to X" skill plan, then your detour to other things has "cost you time". But that's just in your mind. It would be different if for example there was a hard cap on SP, so that you could train only say 50M SP and no more. Or if training speed slowed down significantly as you acquired more SP. Then there would be real consequences of "wasted skill training". As it is, there are basically none. What skill point injection does is to allow players who have either ISK or unwanted SP (and AUR) to train into new skills more rapidly. That's all. If you think that's "evil", then I would suggest that you rip out all those implants that make you train faster. I bet you paid for those with ISK... This is simply another method of paying ISK to get skills faster. And unlike implants, which definitely increase the total SP growth in the game, these injectors may decrease it (though that depends on how much of the SP comes from active players extracting unwanted SPs, and how much from SP farming alts). You sound like a goon alt.
A classy insult, my good sir
This is not a signature.
|
Sacrebleu d'Orion
The Bubble Project
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:58:04 -
[626] - Quote
I love the idea,
Just two small requests
A) Make it 512.000 per skill injector (same value as a full x2 skill) B) Give us the opportunity to delete skills with 0 skillpoints trained (for us, the autists we all are)
Thanks in advance! |
Memphis Baas
943
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 20:59:04 -
[627] - Quote
Why do you guys assume that there will be this limitless supply of injectors? Cause personally I'm not sure we'll even see ONE.
I sure don't need "extra cash", and if I do, selling a PLEX is certainly more effective, and my SP are quite precious, so I don't plan on removing any of them.
So where do you see all these vast amounts of skillpoints coming from? I mean, you're yelling back and forth about "rich kids getting 200 million skillpoints", from where??? With the skill loss on transfer, 300+ million SP's would have to be destroyed to let a single rich kid achieve his "dream".
Character Bazaar, out of 24,000 logins every day, how many are selling, say, SKILLED (not holder) titan pilots, or any other super for that matter. 3, 4? 10? Or hell, pilots with more than 120 million points. If the chances of getting 120 million points are 0.04%, where exactly is the fire?
CCP isn't giving away skillpoints out of thin air; some players will have to lose them in order for anyone to get any. I really doubt that we'll have that many people willing to de-progress their character.
ESPECIALLY when CCP finally announces the Aurum cost for it, and you all realize what a truly monumental cash grab this is. Why do you think they're avoiding any mention of the prices? |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
990
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:00:09 -
[628] - Quote
I've never understood why CCP just doesn't have some kind of voting option for these hotly debated feature discussion. If the vast majority of players are so against this, then a vote would tell what the community wants. |
Memphis Baas
943
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:04:27 -
[629] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I've never understood why CCP just doesn't have some kind of voting option for these hotly debated feature discussion. If the vast majority of players are so against this, then a vote would tell what the community wants.
Yeah and then they'll implement it anyway. So the whole "voting" thing would just be an insult.
Look at it this way: You decide to go to a nice restaurant with your significant other, but, as a bad idea, you get on facebook and ask all your friends to "vote" where you should go and what you should eat. Then, because you had reservations at the restaurant, you go as planned and ignore all the friends' voting results, which just pisses them off.
We're players; we don't have any control over what CCP does, as a business, with their product (this game). They KNOW what the community wants; this thread is 30+ pages telling them what the community wants, with swearwords and everything. |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:07:37 -
[630] - Quote
Hmmm....T2-T3 SP retraining injections?
For a mere 3 PLEX of aurum, players could convert all skills to SP then restructure all their skills. Take a toon from horrendous boring industrial toon to uber PVP toon.
Sounds like a excellent way for CCP to retain players who would otherwise quit after they finally get a clue as to why EVE is worth playing. But normally would not have the heart to spend 6 months training up to have an acceptable vet level PVP toon. And CCP gets to make some extra rl cash to keep the company and EVE going. |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1424
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:09:37 -
[631] - Quote
Udonor wrote:Papa Django wrote:How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost? It is the last relevant question. Any debate before the answer is completly irrelevant (if we ignore the bittervet ocean of tears). If the goal is to help newbros, the AUR price must be low. If the price is too high, it will only help rich people (irl) and rich people (ig) to build insta-alts. 500K sp is 8 days of training for a x1 skill. ?
the price as far as AUR is concerned is almost irrelevant since there is a set time taken to generate 500ksp there will be a limited supply people with isk will buy all these up as they go to the market shooting the price up
i'll say it again the only way for a newbro to gain access to this is going to be via plex and that is not healthy to the game particularly a subscription based one
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1424
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:11:21 -
[632] - Quote
Udonor wrote:Hmmm....T2-T3 SP retraining injections?
For a mere 3 PLEX of aurum, players could convert all skills to SP then restructure all their skills. Take a toon from horrendous boring industrial toon to uber PVP toon.
Sounds like a excellent way for CCP to retain players who would otherwise quit after they finally get a clue as to why EVE is worth playing. But normally would not have the heart to spend 6 months training up to have an acceptable vet level PVP toon. And CCP gets to make some extra rl cash to keep the company and EVE going.
right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1426
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:17:03 -
[633] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Why do you guys assume that there will be this limitless supply of injectors? Cause personally I'm not sure we'll even see ONE.
I sure don't need "extra cash", and if I do, selling a PLEX is certainly more effective, and my SP are quite precious, so I don't plan on removing any of them.
So where do you see all these vast amounts of skillpoints coming from? I mean, you're yelling back and forth about "rich kids getting 200 million skillpoints", from where??? With the skill loss on transfer, 300+ million SP's would have to be destroyed to let a single rich kid achieve his "dream".
Character Bazaar, out of 24,000 logins every day, how many are selling, say, SKILLED (not holder) titan pilots, or any other super for that matter. 3, 4? 10? Or hell, pilots with more than 120 million points. If the chances of getting 120 million points are 0.04%, where exactly is the fire?
CCP isn't giving away skillpoints out of thin air; some players will have to lose them in order for anyone to get any. I really doubt that we'll have that many people willing to de-progress their character.
ESPECIALLY when CCP finally announces the Aurum cost for it, and you all realize what a truly monumental cash grab this is. Why do you think they're avoiding any mention of the prices?
well for one because if they are never sold it wont be an issue
why the will be sold is
there will be a huge demand that demand will be high enough for people to make SP farms to sell sp
the only thing that would stop this is if the demand was not high enough for them to sell the SP at a proffit over simply selling the plex + the cost of running the account.
but i can assure you the demand will be high enough to make this happen and the cost even w/o factoring in the AUR of the item will be far more than a new bro can pay w/o plexing
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Charlie Corday
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:23:02 -
[634] - Quote
Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:24:56 -
[635] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Udonor wrote:Hmmm....T2-T3 SP retraining injections?
For a mere 3 PLEX of aurum, players could convert all skills to SP then restructure all their skills. Take a toon from horrendous boring industrial toon to uber PVP toon.
Sounds like a excellent way for CCP to retain players who would otherwise quit after they finally get a clue as to why EVE is worth playing. But normally would not have the heart to spend 6 months training up to have an acceptable vet level PVP toon. And CCP gets to make some extra rl cash to keep the company and EVE going. right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros need to
have to
Love everyone's angle on having additional options. Keep it up!
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:27:37 -
[636] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked I see. Well risk aversion is something that is killing eve, so I heard
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Charlie Corday
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:29:14 -
[637] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked I see. Well risk aversion is something that is killing eve, so I heard
Finish the quote or go back to WoW... "by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk."
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:31:35 -
[638] - Quote
We get you're risk averse in really specific situations.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1858
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:33:14 -
[639] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. Constant vigilance with every character in the game without the exception...
...does it not seem odd to anyone else in this game that this isn't the default state for any character you don't know? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:34:38 -
[640] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. Constant vigilance with every character in the game without the exception... ...does it not seem odd to anyone else in this game that this isn't the default state for any character you don't know? Eh, does it take very long for characters to get a cyno trained nowadays
I guess maybe you feel safe in highsec~~~ ??? Not that you might not get tackled anyway and then from the next system they jump in, or log on.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
Charlie Corday
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:46:09 -
[641] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. Constant vigilance with every character in the game without the exception... ...does it not seem odd to anyone else in this game that this isn't the default state for any character you don't know? Eh, does it take very long for characters to get a cyno trained nowadays I guess maybe you feel safe in highsec~~~ ??? Not that you might not get tackled anyway and then from the next system they jump in, or log on.
The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:46:37 -
[642] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Udonor wrote:Hmmm....T2-T3 SP retraining injections?
For a mere 3 PLEX of aurum, players could convert all skills to SP then restructure all their skills. Take a toon from horrendous boring industrial toon to uber PVP toon.
Sounds like a excellent way for CCP to retain players who would otherwise quit after they finally get a clue as to why EVE is worth playing. But normally would not have the heart to spend 6 months training up to have an acceptable vet level PVP toon. And CCP gets to make some extra rl cash to keep the company and EVE going. right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros
Correct. Before this game breaking change, you were unable to catch up with older players, now you will also be unable to catch up with a lot of newer players.
Apparently this solves a problem. |
Memphis Baas
945
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:46:50 -
[643] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Seriously, do you actually trust 1-day characters? Because personally I bug out when I see the known gank ships (certain destroyers, for example), I don't even wait to show info on the character. Destroyer in the overview? Bug out!!! And even then it's too late.
Do you trust a 1-day character coming near you to mine in his Venture? Because they're the perfect "warp to fleet member at 0 km" setup to kill you with point blank heavy damage suicide gank ships.
1-day doesn't mean anything. You help 1-day newbies in the Newbie Q/A forums, not in game. Can't trust anyone in-game.
So how many SP they have is moot. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1434
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:50:02 -
[644] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Udonor wrote:Hmmm....T2-T3 SP retraining injections?
For a mere 3 PLEX of aurum, players could convert all skills to SP then restructure all their skills. Take a toon from horrendous boring industrial toon to uber PVP toon.
Sounds like a excellent way for CCP to retain players who would otherwise quit after they finally get a clue as to why EVE is worth playing. But normally would not have the heart to spend 6 months training up to have an acceptable vet level PVP toon. And CCP gets to make some extra rl cash to keep the company and EVE going. right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros Correct. Before this game breaking change, you were unable to catch up with older players, now you will also be unable to catch up with a lot of newer players. Apparently this solves a problem.
no now you will be unable to catch up to richer players new or old
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Charlie Corday
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:52:19 -
[645] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk. Seriously, do you actually trust 1-day characters? Because personally I bug out when I see the known gank ships (certain destroyers, for example), I don't even wait to show info on the character. Destroyer in the overview? Bug out!!! And even then it's too late. Do you trust a 1-day character coming near you to mine in his Venture? Because they're the perfect "warp to fleet member at 0 km" setup to kill you with point blank heavy damage suicide gank ships. 1-day doesn't mean anything. You help 1-day newbies in the Newbie Q/A forums, not in game. Can't trust anyone in-game. So how many SP they have is moot.
And I will repeat this for you..
The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1858
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:53:16 -
[646] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:right as a new player you tell me i need to shell out cash just to play the game then you tell me i have to pay more to play competitively that will be great for bringing in newbros Correct. Before this game breaking change, you were unable to catch up with older players, now you will also be unable to catch up with a lot of newer players. Apparently this solves a problem. Wait, so you couldn't catch up before and that didn't stop players from being competitive, but now that same SP gap does prevent players from being competitive if it's more fluid? It's almost as if SP isn't actually a measure of competitiveness where competence comes into play UNLESS you're arguing against this idea and still only then. |
Cixi
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:53:56 -
[647] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve.
If someone like this gank you maybe you should re-think how you play EvE. |
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:54:38 -
[648] - Quote
I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1858
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:56:15 -
[649] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:And I will repeat this for you..
The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great. My magic dollar respec button is broken. It' supposed to work without consequence right? Mine seems to be costing 70% of the SP I want to move.
And oddly, your complaint here is in no way related to the initial post you made.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 21:56:53 -
[650] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP? Huh... down to 1m huh, indeed something seems wrong with that...
but not what you might have been thinking
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
Charlie Corday
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:05:08 -
[651] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:And I will repeat this for you..
The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great. My magic dollar respec button is broken. It' supposed to work without consequence right? Mine seems to be costing 70% of the SP I want to move. And oddly, your complaint here is in no way related to the initial post you made.
Oddly your ability to think deeply is impaired. Time for an injection. |
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
279
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:05:28 -
[652] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m No thanks. Us OCD folks would know it is there, and it would still drive us nuts. It is kind of like hanging a picture to hide a hole in a wall, or moving furniture to hide stains on a rug. Plus it would still appear in the API. Example: Confused Amarr Starship Engineering with Amarr Engineering Systems *cries* I'd even pay $20 to fix that; it bugs me that much.
LOL you must be fun to live with.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
|
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:08:03 -
[653] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. If someone like this gank you maybe you should re-think how you play EvE.
Cixi - were you thinking ?
(1) such a 1 day/1 hour toon would be an inexperienced Newbie unable to make use of all that SP and ISK?
It takes a while to just read all current EVE tactics not counting practicing them.
(2) Or were you being realistic and suggestive?
That is:
sure this trick is more likely to pulled by those with lots of in-game experience i.e. vets going back to 2003.
but if you are a smart vet yourself, you should be doing this yourself. So you either won't be attacked because you are too new or you will be positioned to counter-surprise them.
(3) Or what idiot loots at toon ages to judge threat level?
Honestly CCP should just remove this info as useless given that the toon birthdate info is given without revealing gaps in subscription or traded toon vs original player ownership.
The part where you said anyone who worried didn't know how to play was clear. Just questioning what specific reason for not worrying came first to your mind. |
Memphis Baas
947
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:08:57 -
[654] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote: And I will repeat this for you..
The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.
Well thanks for repeating, but "consequence" is bullshit, much as "respect." Being a game, there are bugs, there are nerfs to ships, there are stupid things like bounties that can "ruin" your character just cause you said "hi" in local, and there's plenty of consequence-free scamming, ganking, and alt-cycling.
So if I chose to train for capital ships 3 years ago, and now CCP is making burritos out of them, how exactly is that "consequence" under my control in any way? This game changes in spite of our best plans, and this is a tool to mitigate CCP's whimsy. I'm sure they're tired of having to program all those skill reimbursements on patch day, to "satisfy" everyone; now they can just wipe out capital ships or whatever part of the game they want, and when we start shooting Jita monuments they can just point to the skill extractors available on NEX.
|
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
279
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:09:21 -
[655] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ?
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1858
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:12:04 -
[656] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Oddly your ability to think deeply is impaired. Time for an injection. Great job justifying your position. Man, I'm convinced now with that on topic, well reasoned response that didn't resort to an off the cuff insult. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:13:49 -
[657] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:(3) Or what idiot loots at toon ages to judge threat level?
Honestly CCP should just remove this info as useless given that the toon birthdate info is given without revealing gaps in subscription or traded toon vs original player ownership. Something about using show info on names in local
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1592
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:17:57 -
[658] - Quote
I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however:
Quote:The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.
Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this?
On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Cixi
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:20:35 -
[659] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:Cixi wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. If someone like this gank you maybe you should re-think how you play EvE. Cixi - were you thinking ? (1) such a 1 day/1 hour toon would be an inexperienced Newbie unable to make use of all that SP and ISK? It takes a while to just read all current EVE tactics not counting practicing them. (2) Or were you being realistic and suggestive? That is: sure this trick is more likely to pulled by those with lots of in-game experience i.e. vets going back to 2003. but if you are a smart vet yourself, you should be doing this yourself. So you either won't be attacked because you are too new or you will be positioned to counter-surprise them. (3) Or what idiot loots at toon ages to judge threat level? Honestly CCP should just remove this info as useless given that the toon birthdate info is given without revealing gaps in subscription or traded toon vs original player ownership. The part where you said anyone who worried didn't know how to play was clear. Just questioning what specific reason for not worrying came first to your mind.
If you get ganked it doesn't matter how much SP the ganker have, this is what I meant. A ganking alt takes less than month to train, and nobody will over train them even with transferable SP
So maybe transferable SP will lead to an increase number of gankers, but I will certainly not worry about them more than I am now, because I know how to fly around without being a target. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:23:49 -
[660] - Quote
helana Tsero wrote:Proddy Scun wrote:I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ?
Whoohoo - I hadn't though of that - I know several people I can phone up and ask them to use the PLEX grace period to trade some extractor and fill em-up for some cheap skill points.
Is this against the EULA ? - If it is would giving them a PLEX to make the account active before I strip-mine it be OK?
.... and at no time would I ever consider offering real life cash for them to do this trade also I would never consider advertising online for people with redundant accounts to do this as that would also be against the EULA terms
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:24:27 -
[661] - Quote
Well some gank alts are pretty carefully trained (though certainly a simple catalyst works well too) and are basically just another type of specialized alt which uses blasters and occasionally projectiles.
These of course in the line of duty are also -10 sec alts, which the ganker knows how to use properly, unlike the odd imaginings of people who are being ganked by such specialized alts and feel a special pain.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:26:01 -
[662] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Whoohoo - I hadn't though of that - I know several people I can phone up and ask them to use the PLEX grace period to trade some extractor and fill em-up for some cheap skill points.
Is this against the EULA ? - If it is would giving them a PLEX to make the account active before I strip-mine it be OK?
.... and at no time would I ever consider offering real life cash for them to do this trade also I would never consider advertising online for people with redundant accounts to do this as that would also be against the EULA terms Oh my, did you also take all the ships and stuff off their accounts as well for nothing in return?
And transfer all their isk?
Hmm...
If the character is good, sell on bazaar and transfer all the isk.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:29:17 -
[663] - Quote
helana Tsero wrote:Proddy Scun wrote:I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ?
LOL of course.
But your an infant if you play EVE and still do not realize a few people scam anything that can be scammed.
Not looking at any secret conspiracies. Though occasionally Watergate stuff does really occur.
I know at least 1 player who makes a point of collecting account info from people who quit EVE. His intent I guess is to have toons for spying and dirty work IF he needs them. He is not subscribing them now. But if this CCP deal goes through without restrictions.
*** But the people who scream "tin hat" are often the people that I find mostly likely to be cashing in on some loophole. they scream "tin hat" because someone is messing with their big potential windfall. But you are right most the people in any demographic just don't care until it effects them directly and its too late to prevent or get in on the "good" deal. ***
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:31:15 -
[664] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Whoohoo - I hadn't though of that - I know several people I can phone up and ask them to use the PLEX grace period to trade some extractor and fill em-up for some cheap skill points.
Is this against the EULA ? - If it is would giving them a PLEX to make the account active before I strip-mine it be OK?
.... and at no time would I ever consider offering real life cash for them to do this trade also I would never consider advertising online for people with redundant accounts to do this as that would also be against the EULA terms Oh my, did you also take all the ships and stuff off their accounts as well for nothing in return? And transfer all their isk? Hmm... If the character is good, sell on bazaar and transfer all the isk.
Mostly they left because of real life issues and have already given all their stuff away - trading at a station is free and if they sold me their toon through the bazaar it would cost an ALT |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:34:35 -
[665] - Quote
Now we're really getting started.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:37:05 -
[666] - Quote
Do you think www.WeBuyUglyEveAccounts.com is a bit blatant |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
802
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:37:08 -
[667] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
No, you need a minimum 5 mil SP to extract 500K SP, so you would need at least 5.5 mil SP (roughly 3 months training) for 1 extractor.
Starting a fresh character with SP from an existing one - 50 mil SP is more than enough to specialize but if it is ganking toons your after, your prerequisites are far lower - 5 to 10 mil SP is more than enough and can be moved around with minimal SP loss. Really though, there is no such thing as an "unplayable" character - Ask Kill2.
TSP's could turn out to be a boon for the budding alliance and corp thieves, although it is likely to add a few months to achieving their goals. Join corp, work into trusted position (not hard with a lot of groups), rob them, use part of the proceeds to move SP from the now known thief to a brand new character, biomass, rinse and repeat. As long as your a successful thief, you should be able to keep your SP up.
PS; Giving a GF/ Wife who dislikes you playing Eve your password - You deserve everything that could happen.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
MiSANTHR0PE
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:41:20 -
[668] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however: Quote:The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this? On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin.
It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there) |
Cixi
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:44:45 -
[669] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:[quote=Proddy Scun] PS; Giving a GF/ Wife who dislikes you playing Eve your password - You deserve everything that could happen.
NEVER share your credetials |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6926
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:46:52 -
[670] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:PS; Giving a GF/ Wife who dislikes you playing Eve your password - You deserve everything that could happen. NEVER share your credetials You probably shouldn't brag to them about how this new item CCP is putting in is awesome and you will start 1000 alts to make use of it....
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
Cixi
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 22:58:53 -
[671] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Cixi wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:PS; Giving a GF/ Wife who dislikes you playing Eve your password - You deserve everything that could happen. NEVER share your credetials You probably shouldn't brag to them about how this new item CCP is putting in is awesome and you will start 1000 alts to make use of it....
Soon on EvE Online: https://i.imgur.com/Dy9Sjwi.jpg |
Doppleganger
Federated Holdings Libera Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:00:26 -
[672] - Quote
MiSANTHR0PE wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however: Quote:The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this? On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin. It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there)
Thats what went through my mind when I read that line in the blog....... well of course CCP didnt see all the discontent on the eve forums last time and thats because they only read reddit forums.
|
Pine Marten
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
96
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:02:08 -
[673] - Quote
No one sees all the fun stuff that will be happening. Soon we will have newbies flying around in redicoulous fitted ships, since they dont know what they are doing. I, for one, are looking forward to all that shiny loot. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3114
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:15:10 -
[674] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote: No one sees all the fun stuff that will be happening. Soon we will have newbies flying around in redicoulous fitted ships, since they dont know what they are doing. I, for one, are looking forward to all that shiny loot.
This is where it all gets rather confusing.
On the one hand 'cash for skills' is being promoted as a way of retaining new players - bigger shinier ships more quickly etc.
On the other hand, many have said how much fun it will be smashing new players who have the skill points to fly ships but not the in-game know-how to use them properly, which may well result in the very same new players quitting the game as they keep losing their shiny new ships.
One rather suspects that CCP have been blinded to the possible down side of this by the potential isk signs in front of their eyes
This is not a signature.
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:16:06 -
[675] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Why do you guys assume that there will be this limitless supply of injectors? Cause personally I'm not sure we'll even see ONE.
I sure don't need "extra cash", and if I do, selling a PLEX is certainly more effective, and my SP are quite precious, so I don't plan on removing any of them.
So where do you see all these vast amounts of skillpoints coming from?
-> Buy a pair of PLEX for ISK. -> Activate the training queue on an alt. -> Train for a month. -> Use the second PLEX to extract 4 skill packets (it might end up being 3 PLEXES) -> Sell on market for more than the 2 (or 3) PLEX cost -> Repeat.
People will be able to do that with a lot of alts. I've got about 5 that I could switch on right away and another 10 I'd just need to give a couple of million SP to get started. People will use this as a passive ISK making method until the price of PLEX goes up so high it becomes unviable or until there are more skill packets than demand, but I imagine demand will be very high. |
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:22:09 -
[676] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:helana Tsero wrote:Proddy Scun wrote:I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
Do u sleep in a bed made of tinfoil and use a 13 layer headwrap ? Whoohoo - I hadn't though of that - I know several people I can phone up and ask them to use the PLEX grace period to trade some extractor and fill em-up for some cheap skill points. Is this against the EULA ? - If it is would giving them a PLEX to make the account active before I strip-mine it be OK? .... and at no time would I ever consider offering real life cash for them to do this trade also I would never consider advertising online for people with redundant accounts to do this as that would also be against the EULA terms
Well to stay in EULA you have to go through character trading protocol and get the toon in your account. Cost was 1 PLEX last I looked. Getting a player who quit to work up the interest to help you do trade in EULA is the hard part. But I suspect there are people with 1+ willing friends who quit after 3-10 years play. Growing families or work are great EVE killers. All legal since its not quite free - even if you can potentially get over x100 your investment as in-game return for one 10 year account.
But within EULA action was only half my point. CCP like most game companies have lots of problems with "farmers" and other out of EULA transactions. I am sure that if you "farmed" too many accounts directly into your main online account you would be detected and banned by CCP even if CCP runs this idea "as is". But if players are smart they could make it very difficult for CCP. Enough to have significant advantages to select individuals and possibly some effect on market etc in game overall if widely enough exploited.
I am talking that as it stands there will be some unresolved exploitation because the standard procedure used by cheaters to hide exploits still works here. They just use of an array (1 per sale) of trial toons at different free public WiFi access points so that their home IP is not associated when buying or selling injectors at below market price from abandon accounts. So log onto Putting several throwaway accounts in middle of transfer process introduces reasonable doubt especially when many other people are making similar transactions. So yes these guys put a little work into this. Yeah you can argue that if anyone who makes really good wages it doesn't seem cost-effective over just buying PLEX. Some people just like to cheat. And not everyone make good wages & those trips to free WiFi areas are often part of some peoples normal movements as well (MickyDees lunch time). LOL if you got a remote desktop open to market or someone at home to press the button, its pretty hard to connect that injector placed on market for 100 ISK in remote Derlik station by a trial account at Micky Dees with the regular player account at home that finally buys it less than 30 seconds later.
P.S. remote desktop is automation against EULA but CCP has difficulty banning folk for having it on their Windows machine since its part of normal install and usage. Hmmm...EVE special secure virtual machine with specialized OS in future to prevent exploits? |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:22:57 -
[677] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Udonor wrote:Papa Django wrote:How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost? It is the last relevant question. Any debate before the answer is completly irrelevant (if we ignore the bittervet ocean of tears). If the goal is to help newbros, the AUR price must be low. If the price is too high, it will only help rich people (irl) and rich people (ig) to build insta-alts. 500K sp is 8 days of training for a x1 skill. ? the price as far as AUR is concerned is almost irrelevant since there is a set time taken to generate 500ksp there will be a limited supply people with isk will buy all these up as they go to the market shooting the price up i'll say it again the only way for a newbro to gain access to this is going to be via plex and that is not healthy to the game particularly a subscription based one
No, the AUR price is really important. Once people farm this it will push the PLEX price up and the more the extractor costs the faster the PLEX price will be pushed up. New characters paying for SP is actually a good thing here because they'll bring the PLEX price back down again. It could also be good for the character too if they buy an initial lump of SP then train and slowly sell back to the market to PLEX their account.
Imagine if instead of starting with no SP and training 10 million SP over 6 months you could start with 10 million SP (by paying a lump sum) and then effectively have no training for the first 6 months while you extract the SP and use it to PLEX the account. It'd be just like buying a 6 month subscription in terms of cost but the toon would be a lot more useful on day 1.
|
Nootex Dox
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:35:32 -
[678] - Quote
No No No GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ and New Eden Store No No No !!! Not again!
Make it a player item ! Or just not at all, not all that money sucking **** !
You guys get enough money...!!!
No to New Eden Store crap store, yes to player driven item !
Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR - Out with AUR. |
MiSANTHR0PE
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:37:08 -
[679] - Quote
Pine Marten wrote: No one sees all the fun stuff that will be happening. Soon we will have newbies flying around in redicoulous fitted ships, since they dont know what they are doing. I, for one, are looking forward to all that shiny loot.
Except, It's not really for newbros is it, the two most common complaints for newbros are along the lines of
1:Oh sp's passive, it will take me forever to catch up and be of any use 2:How do we earn enough isk to plex our accounts
Number two kinda make number one a moot point.
sure I expect some guys will go balls deep and buy all the sp's they think they need, just like the guys that join up buy plex and loose them in ibis or un-dock a a few bill's worth of faction\officer fitted battleship, then there quit and bad mouth the game when they realise that they still useless, but this does happen already regardless of being able to buy sp
It's nothing more than a cash grab by a business, and will mainly be used by vets burning alts they don't use to buff there main or for re-speccing them mining skills they don't want
It doesn't affect (effect? too stoned) me all, I have 30 mil sp and don't feel I have wasted any of it
But what happens after this?
Gold ammo world of tanks style? oh lets do away with attributes and implants and sell sp\xp boosters!
I don't want to do the whole "eve is dying thing" I love and adore eve to bits, but it is a very old game, it's very dated, surprisingly very unheard of by many & extremely niche, blatant cash grab is blatant |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
44
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:49:33 -
[680] - Quote
Unfortunatly, but this seems to me as the beginning of the end.
Loads of people will buy plex, to buy SP on the market, my guess is that there wont be enough extractions to feed everyone, prices will go up, and some will then buy more and more plex, right into the bank account of CCP.
No problem with CCP shovelling money, but to get more players into the game they come up with this, a smart move idd, but a stab in the back towards loyal players, myself almost 12 years, now the new kid around the block with hes daddies credit card, will just buy him those 12 years of training.
Where o where is the time that if you wanted to accomplish something ingame that you had to work hard for it ? And actually some sense of proudness afterwards, ( Yes its possible in a game ).
:O CCP this game once beloved by many because it was on hard mode is now starting to shake on its foundations, soon if not allready people will fight over regions with their credit card, where there was once skill and hard work that made the outcome, it will be fatty Cartman dudes that recently joined the game with a bag of money/chips at their desk, buying all the SP and titans they want, even loyalty.
Some loyal players including me are getting somehow frustrated with the changes past years.
-Lets get newer players 800k SP, so their missing the joy starting from 0. ( Back in the days i mined 3k isk/h with my Ibis, working my way up hours and hours to be able to buy and fit a T1 Bantam frig ) -Reverse engineering, making my T2 bpo's almost obsolete. -A tower in high sec.. In the past you had to work your ass of to get the faction standings. -Plex, lets get everyone to raise their credit card, so half of eve flies a titan. -Same with being able to buy SP now.
The game is getting way to easy, and more mainstream, not standing out as this crazy hard unique game that people had to try, the fun factor is starting to vaporize aswell.
Before the end of the year my char might go into hibernation if this goes on, few will care anyway, allmost all me ingame m8s allready left because of the former changes
Ah well just my 2cents.
(Sry for my bad English ) |
|
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 23:58:27 -
[681] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Proddy Scun wrote:I see a problem with this whole process.
1) First CCP should probably raise minimum SP for extraction to 12 million or 6 months subscribed pay.
Because lots of defunct short term accounts exist with unsalable non-trial toons with over 1 million in SP. Toons with less than 12M SP are normally especially hard to sell. But you can get 20+ extractions from a toon played for 6 months and only reactivated for 1 month (or just the free 3-4 hour grace period CCP grants to obtain PLEX if CCP is not careful).
Sometimes these accounts are owned by the injection profiting player from past attempts at multiple account play (almost fair recovery of costs). But I predict injections will more often come from toons and accounts friends invited who quit or others just gotten via networking.
Invite a lot of people and convince them to pay 1st month fee at very start. Lets you make sure they fill training queue. When they quit before paying 2nd month, make sure you got their account and password captured (maybe when you help them install EVE on computer). Kinda gray for CCP since these are quite likely not recruiting many long term players. But 30 day trial plus 1 month paid = roughly +3.5M SP potentially. Call it 5 extractions.
2) Beyond that massive amount of short term account toons, there are other accounts.
Hacked accounts. Now they can steal more than just ISK and assets.
Old junk toons from people who quit EVE long ago (hey buddy what was your account and password?) . EVE is what 13 years old = lots of dead toons. Same as before but toons may have lots more than 12M SP. Call up that buddy who had 150M SP but got serious GF or married and was given the ultimatum.
Heck there will be GF & wives logging on behind players backs to sell off SP when the SP extraction feature leaks to the EVE affected crowd. Would you keep playing after your GF/wife reduced your toons to 1M SP?
"Unplayable" toons that excessive ganking has -10 with every NPC and player faction/alliance. Got everyone in the world after that toon? Just move the 30% of SP that you can retain to another toon. Obtain a few toons to suck dry elsewhere.
No, you need a minimum 5 mil SP to extract 500K SP, so you would need at least 5.5 mil SP (roughly 3 months training) for 1 extractor. Starting a fresh character with SP from an existing one - 50 mil SP is more than enough to specialize but if it is ganking toons your after, your prerequisites are far lower - 5 to 10 mil SP is more than enough and can be moved around with minimal SP loss. Really though, there is no such thing as an "unplayable" character - Ask Kill2. TSP's could turn out to be a boon for the budding alliance and corp thieves, although it is likely to add a few months to achieving their goals. Join corp, work into trusted position (not hard with a lot of groups), rob them, use part of the proceeds to move SP from the now known thief to a brand new character, biomass, rinse and repeat. As long as your a successful thief, you should be able to keep your SP up. PS; Giving a GF/ Wife who dislikes you playing Eve your password - You deserve everything that could happen.
LOL - I put quotes around "unplayable" for a reason. Was speaking what the majority of players would call "unplayable" when purchasing a toon. Ones most people won't pay ISK to own even if they are looking for a toon. Ones most people won't sacrifice a toon slot for even if you pay the transfer cost between accounts.
Yeah GF/wife issue was meant as a minor example. Though the issue would be not logging out more often than giving password. But password on old sticky attached to monitor would close second. And like you say 80% of the ones I seen deserved some sort of punishment for being stupid about women (hooking up with scary ones & then being openly arrogant in their neglect).
Thieves... LOL there goes one of the last major reasons to ask for full API. Join and corp gives access to hangar because you cannot fly the important ships without months of training. Then just add SP and skills in middle of night and fly off with anything.
P.S. 5 million SP minimum? Sorry thread way too long to read. Last I saw was early CCP comment that said 1M SP minimum. If its officially 5M SP now then things are moving in right direction. CCP probably got my concern a while ago & then researched the point in time where the biggest number of people quit and never came back. Maybe their statistics say the accounts with 4-6 months training have too many cases where people eventually came back. Would not be my guess but they have the data if they bothered to analyze it that way. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1041
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:03:10 -
[682] - Quote
This is going to hurt new player retention more than help it. With skill trading, the new player experience goes directly from "I have to train for weeks and months or spend a LOT of money (which the vast majority of people don't do) and buy a character to be effective" to "my rate of advancement is now tied to how big my wallet is". |
Alexis Nightwish
387
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:08:20 -
[683] - Quote
Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times:
Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games
Well there we go. I'll never get him to join.
But from me to you CCP:
/´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
|
Nootex Dox
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:08:30 -
[684] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:This is going to hurt new player retention more than help it. With skill trading, the new player experience goes directly from "I have to train for weeks and months or spend a LOT of money (which the vast majority of people don't do) and buy a character to be effective" to "my rate of advancement is now tied to how big my wallet is".
Yep CCP are screwing us again with that New Eden store crap |
Zavia Uristis
Numvisia
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:10:09 -
[685] - Quote
Hi there,
I'm a new player myself and I have a question.
This is a quote from the dev post:
Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters.
My question is: How is this going to help bringing in newer players? |
Nootex Dox
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:13:43 -
[686] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:This is going to hurt new player retention more than help it. With skill trading, the new player experience goes directly from "I have to train for weeks and months or spend a LOT of money (which the vast majority of people don't do) and buy a character to be effective" to "my rate of advancement is now tied to how big my wallet is".
Yes CCP are screwing us over again with that ******* New Eden Store crap... Like Sub or Plexes are not enough no no no they wonna milk us dry...
Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ - Out with New Eden Store and GÇ£Skill ExtractorGÇ¥ |
Nootex Dox
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:16:45 -
[687] - Quote
ohh glad a other game like this is comeing out, but just with incarna and cockpits.
Cough Cough SC FTW !
Backer hell year ! |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1042
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:31:52 -
[688] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times: Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games Well there we go. I'll never get him to join. But from me to you CCP: /´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
|
Mercur Fighter
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:39:30 -
[689] - Quote
Ralph Drake wrote:Please, CCP, let us be able to remove 0-skill-points skills from our sheet. I don't want the skill book back or anything, I am just obsessive.
Unfortunately I don't think CCP caters to OCD needs :( Now if a majority of the players are OCD, they might. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
363
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 00:49:37 -
[690] - Quote
Great, if this goes ahead I'll burn a few alts and create a pure pvp 2016 char for a laugh. Might as well get some fun out of the game before it fizzles out. Surprised they are still risking going ahead with this considering the negative feedback from the last post.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
|
Gregor Parud
Viziam
2237
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:00:24 -
[691] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times: Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games Well there we go. I'll never get him to join. But from me to you CCP: /´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
Yes that's another thing I've been trying to explain to people but alas. This whole "think of the newbies" is (as it always has been) a lie. Newbies will look at this, see a whiff of P2W and go "so I have to pay extra to catch up" and won't even bother playing. There's only four reasons people are in favour of this idea.
a) they want to get rid of some skills because their OCD demands it (so it's for selfish reasons)
b) they have some old high SP chars they don't have a use for any more and they'll bleed that one for personal use (so for selfish reasons)
c) they see a new market they can dive into, preferably one where they create their own supply and demand, quite possibly with RMT in mind (so for selfish reasons). This is what large "newbro" entities will be doing
d) someone rich going "lol, I'll make an OP alt. This will be fun"
So CCP, and parts of the CSM it seems, listened to their :logic: about how it would be good for the game & newbies and they gobbled it up, they fell for it because they're not intelligent enough to see through it. And personally I'm not interested in playing a game who's DEVS are too stupid to poop to a point where they require constant "wtf are you doing CCP" by each and every CSM, year after year. THIS time CCP did something truly ******** and I want no part of it.
Goodbye EVE. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
367
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:07:56 -
[692] - Quote
A lot of people are very afraid that people with a big CC can get high on skill-points very quick.
To mitigate that I proposed in the original thread that you could make a limit for players in amounts of packages consumed.
Say, 2 each year.
Then you can progress a jump forward, but you limit growth overall.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Edwin Wyatt
New Eden Deep Space Industries Warped Intentions
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:17:23 -
[693] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you!
I want to start by saying I like the concept but this is the typical business model we come to except from CCP? Milk you customers until they're dry? Are we to expect every new feature will have some type of monetary value attached it. Seriously think about what your about to do and the message its sending to the community.
Why do we need to have an AUR item other than it puts money in CCP pocket. STOP this now before you **** off more of your customers.
Simple solution.
1. allow players to extract any level of any skill by using the skill book of the skill in question and attach the level extracted onto the skill book which player can then sell on the open market to whomever.
2. allow players to extract SP to a SP pool on the character to distribute how they feel. this should have a cost involved and should have something similar to jump fatigue so that players aren't change there skills weekly.
Done. See when you stop seeing your customers as cash cows, it ends up being really simple.
Edwin |
Cixi
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:23:17 -
[694] - Quote
CCP is not a charity I don't know how anyone expect a feature like this to be free. |
Edwin Wyatt
New Eden Deep Space Industries Warped Intentions
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:25:26 -
[695] - Quote
Cixi wrote:CCP is not a charity I don't know how anyone expect a feature like this to be free.
Maybe you didn't read their avert, FREE UPDATES with monthly subscription.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1859
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:29:24 -
[696] - Quote
Edwin Wyatt wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP is not a charity I don't know how anyone expect a feature like this to be free. Maybe you didn't read their avert, FREE UPDATES with monthly subscription. Maybe you didn't understand what you read. No one is charging you for this update.
Using this feature takes someones money, but no one ever stated that was free.
Edwin Wyatt wrote:Every feature in EVE has been free since day one until they added the New Eden Store. And how did that end for CCP? Just fine, the NES is more populated with stuff of more varieties than it's ever been.
Also no, PLEX isn't free and was around prior to AUR/NEX/NES. |
Cixi
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:30:48 -
[697] - Quote
Edwin Wyatt wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP is not a charity I don't know how anyone expect a feature like this to be free. Maybe you didn't read their avert, FREE UPDATES with monthly subscription. Every feature in EVE has been free since day one until they added the New Eden Store. And how did that end for CCP? It "Monoclegate" all over again! http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/26/eve-evolved-the-day-that-eve-online-died/
You don't have to pay real money to benefit from this... someone else has to, but it's the same as plexes. |
Edwin Wyatt
New Eden Deep Space Industries Warped Intentions
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 01:34:15 -
[698] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Edwin Wyatt wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP is not a charity I don't know how anyone expect a feature like this to be free. Maybe you didn't read their avert, FREE UPDATES with monthly subscription. Maybe you didn't understand what you read. No one is charging you for this update. Using this feature takes someones money, but no one ever stated that was free.
Their is no reason for it to have a monetary value to it. Other than to put money into CCP pockets. which they get enough from subscriptions already! Next you will be charged for docking and undocking at NPC stations. Please insert CC here to dock!
Enjoy paying for your new feature, ill spend my money on something more entertaining.
|
Kuetlzelcoatl
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 02:40:55 -
[699] - Quote
Now a Corp will not have to lower their standards to try and get more people into their Corp. They will simply tell new players that they need to spend $60-80 a month on this game their first few months to get them into a position isk and skill point wise to make themselves worth having around.
Now eager players who want to play the game but want to take short cuts to get into the good game play have the perfect game supported mechanic to get the good gear and skills to fly it, before "they" are even ready.
Now new players will be told they need to spend $50 plus a month for a few months at least before anyone will look at them for joining a Corp.
Now the skill point / isk barrier is simply a real life money barrier.
And now Corps can take the easy way out and simply tell new players, "pay up to join up" instead of "skill up to join up".
I think that will turn many prospective new players away from this game.
But I know, the decision has been made because of the potential new cash flows the company may see...
But they are now "burning the candle from both ends".
The lost cash flows may be greater than the gained ones when it is all said and done. Sometimes greed and taking or making available the easy way out is not in the best corporate interest.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1859
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 02:48:06 -
[700] - Quote
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:Now a Corp will not have to lower their standards to try and get more people into their Corp. They will simply tell new players that they need to spend $60-80 a month on this game their first few months to get them into a position isk and skill point wise to make themselves worth having around.
Now eager players who want to play the game but want to take short cuts to get into the good game play have the perfect game supported mechanic to get the good gear and skills to fly it, before "they" are even ready.
Now new players will be told they need to spend $50 plus a month for a few months at least before anyone will look at them for joining a Corp.
Now the skill point / isk barrier is simply a real life money barrier.
And now Corps can take the easy way out and simply tell new players, "pay up to join up" instead of "skill up to join up".
I think that will turn many prospective new players away from this game.
But I know, the decision has been made because of the potential new cash flows the company may see...
But they are now "burning the candle from both ends".
The lost cash flows may be greater than the gained ones when it is all said and done. Sometimes greed and taking or making available the easy way out is not in the best corporate interest.
Or players could find corps that aren't terrible
|
|
Riel Ra'Dib
Casimir Associates
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 03:04:24 -
[701] - Quote
Couple more solutions to the issues people have. Sorry, I'm an engineer, it's what I do.
1) It takes just as long to drain skills INTO an extractor as it takes to TRAIN them. The injector works like a cerebral accelerator, doubling your training time for the next X Million skillpoints.
No instant alts. No waking up a popsicle to bleed 10 years of skills in 10 minutes.
2) Extract a skill. That's what the injector holds. That's all it holds, just that skill, NOT SP.
New players could probably pick up Mining V for 250K + injector cost (make em cheap).
3) Cooldown, like jump clones or jump fatigue. Roll in a whole set of skills and implants to manage it.
You can inject once a month at 100% efficiency... Train Cyber Learning to V and it's only 21 days!
I think the "instant" bit is what I'm hung up on the most. Put some brakes on the SP both out of the old toon and into the new one.
|
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Trygalle Trade Guild Letherii Div
43
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 03:25:48 -
[702] - Quote
CCP can you please have the skill point extractor "Extract" 512,000 SP instead of "500,000". 500,000 does not make sense the way skills are right now. if you inject SP you will have 12,000 left over if you try to get lvl5 in 2 level 1 skills and or 1 level 2 skills.
Loot Buying service:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
203
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 03:58:14 -
[703] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Alexis Nightwish wrote:Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times: Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games Well there we go. I'll never get him to join. But from me to you CCP: /´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
Yes that's another thing I've been trying to explain to people but alas. This whole "think of the newbies" is (as it always has been) a lie. Newbies will look at this, see a whiff of P2W and go "so I have to pay extra to catch up" and won't even bother playing. There's only four reasons people are in favour of this idea. a) they want to get rid of some skills because their OCD demands it (so it's for selfish reasons) b) they have some old high SP chars they don't have a use for any more and they'll bleed that one for personal use (so for selfish reasons) c) they see a new market they can dive into, preferably one where they create their own supply and demand, quite possibly with RMT in mind (so for selfish reasons). This is what large "newbro" entities will be doing d) someone rich going "lol, I'll make an OP alt. This will be fun" So CCP, and parts of the CSM it seems, listened to their :logic: about how it would be good for the game & newbies and they gobbled it up, they fell for it because they're not intelligent enough to see through it. And personally I'm not interested in playing a game who's DEVS are too stupid to poop to a point where they require constant "wtf are you doing CCP" by each and every CSM, year after year. THIS time CCP did something truly ******** and I want no part of it. Goodbye EVE.
Damn, he finally won Eve.
o7
|
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
252
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 04:02:49 -
[704] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Alexis Nightwish wrote:Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times: Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games Well there we go. I'll never get him to join. But from me to you CCP: /´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
Yes that's another thing I've been trying to explain to people but alas. This whole "think of the newbies" is (as it always has been) a lie. Newbies will look at this, see a whiff of P2W and go "so I have to pay extra to catch up" and won't even bother playing. There's only four reasons people are in favour of this idea. a) they want to get rid of some skills because their OCD demands it (so it's for selfish reasons) b) they have some old high SP chars they don't have a use for any more and they'll bleed that one for personal use (so for selfish reasons) c) they see a new market they can dive into, preferably one where they create their own supply and demand, quite possibly with RMT in mind (so for selfish reasons). This is what large "newbro" entities will be doing d) someone rich going "lol, I'll make an OP alt. This will be fun" So CCP, and parts of the CSM it seems, listened to their :logic: about how it would be good for the game & newbies and they gobbled it up, they fell for it because they're not intelligent enough to see through it. And personally I'm not interested in playing a game who's DEVS are too stupid to poop to a point where they require constant "wtf are you doing CCP" by each and every CSM, year after year. THIS time CCP did something truly ******** and I want no part of it. Goodbye EVE.
Well thats one standing up. I salute you mate 07
Must also ask is their a monument bash going to happen over this? |
Zeshinosa
SYNDAX CORPORATION Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 04:04:14 -
[705] - Quote
Well I guess this is final nail in the game for me. This is yet another thing that I feel that is ruining EVE for me personally. I haven't been happy about a few things lately but this is the final straw for me. I can see what they are trying to do with this change however it hurts the game more than it helps it IMO. So hopefully all my subs running out will give them enough of idea of my distaste time to move onto other better games. |
Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 04:53:04 -
[706] - Quote
Having thought about this a bit more, I'm beginning to think that CCP would prefer to implement a direct PLEX-for-skill-points scheme but that they may be too afraid to do that just yet. Prior player backlash over radical feature changes may have taught them to make changes more incrementally to test player acceptance. More importantly, though, gradual change can be a tool to *condition* players to eventually accept something they otherwise might revolt en masse over.
I think that's the target endgame for this feature: direct PLEX-for-skill points. No skill extractor nonsense, no pretense of "experienced players being kind to new players and giving them skill points", etc. This is all just a facade to get players to swallow a bitter pill before making the REAL intended game change in another year or so.
If this is the plan, that would help to explain why they've ignored all of the negative feedback that they received the first time this idea was mentioned a few months ago. I think they've already decided this and are prepared to ignore all player protests until and unless they see a real drop in financial revenue after doing this.
Clearly they don't regard players as customers to be served but rather as sheep to be herded wherever CCP wants them to go.
|
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
214
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 04:54:31 -
[707] - Quote
Minchurra wrote:I like it. Some Qs:
For example on a toonie with 65 million SP, can I just move 5 million SP from my mining skills and dump them into my leadership skills, or do I need to use the injector/extractor and lose a percentage of my skill points?
Hell no you will pay a fistfull of dollars to extract them out and another fistfull to put them back. The goal is Maximum CCP profits remember. This will make CCP lots of money but it will also be very rewarding in the short term for us. Overall I think it reduces the feel of the patience vs reward game and that is a bad thing on the other hand I can't wait to get 10,000,000 in drone skillpoints overnight.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1613
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 04:58:20 -
[708] - Quote
MiSANTHR0PE wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however: Quote:The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this? On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin. It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there)
I imagine it's less the venue, and more that they heard what they wanted to hear while conveniently tuning out the rest.
The blog is even worded in a way that it can still be technically correct: I'm sure many of us do, indeed, think it's a good idea. Of course, "many" isn't a relative quantifier, such as "most" or "a majority" - it's just an arbitrary value of "a lot". Obviously many of us also think it's a ******* terrible idea, but that didn't receive any mention for some reason.
Maybe I'm just a cynic, but the whole blog reads like an infomercial to me.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
248
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 05:01:24 -
[709] - Quote
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:Now a Corp will not have to lower their standards to try and get more people into their Corp. They will simply tell new players that they need to spend $60-80 a month on this game their first few months to get them into a position isk and skill point wise to make themselves worth having around.
Now eager players who want to play the game but want to take short cuts to get into the good game play have the perfect game supported mechanic to get the good gear and skills to fly it, before "they" are even ready.
Now new players will be told they need to spend $50 plus a month for a few months at least before anyone will look at them for joining a Corp.
Now the skill point / isk barrier is simply a real life money barrier.
And now Corps can take the easy way out and simply tell new players, "pay up to join up" instead of "skill up to join up".
I think that will turn many prospective new players away from this game.
But I know, the decision has been made because of the potential new cash flows the company may see...
But they are now "burning the candle from both ends".
The lost cash flows may be greater than the gained ones when it is all said and done. Sometimes greed and taking or making available the easy way out is not in the best corporate interest.
those corps are NOT worth joining then as a newbro.
Just Add Water
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
322
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 05:14:30 -
[710] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I've never understood why CCP just doesn't have some kind of voting option for these hotly debated feature discussion. If the vast majority of players are so against this, then a vote would tell what the community wants.
Truth is they really don't care as long as there are some (no matter how little) who are in favor of this terribad idea, then for CCP that's the green light. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1860
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 05:23:09 -
[711] - Quote
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:Having thought about this a bit more, I'm beginning to think that CCP would prefer to implement a direct PLEX-for-skill-points scheme but that they may be too afraid to do that just yet. Prior player backlash over radical feature changes may have taught them to make changes more incrementally to test player acceptance. More importantly, though, gradual change can be a tool to *condition* players to eventually accept something they otherwise might revolt en masse over.
I think that's the target endgame for this feature: direct PLEX-for-skill points. No skill extractor nonsense, no pretense of "experienced players being kind to new players and giving them skill points", etc. This is all just a facade to get players to swallow a bitter pill before making the REAL intended game change in another year or so.
If this is the plan, that would help to explain why they've ignored all of the negative feedback that they received the first time this idea was mentioned a few months ago. I think they've already decided this and are prepared to ignore all player protests until and unless they see a real drop in financial revenue after doing this.
Clearly they don't regard players as customers to be served but rather as sheep to be herded wherever CCP wants them to go. The problem is that this supposed target endgame is an indefensible position whether injectors are in place or not. Unless you're considering the plan to be a complete churn of the player-base within the scope of this plan it doesn't play out. Those that are in favor of this are in favor as is, from what I've seen of support posts anyways, under parallels to existing mechanics and functions.
Your slippery slope calculated end point doesn't have that and is entirely dependent on people just forgetting the principles the game should have. While I like the addition of the implications there that everyone who isn't strongly against this is soft in the head for not buying the doom prophecies your selling on top of in time suggesting we'd just roll over and accept a change we do have issue with, maybe we could be given the benefit of the doubt that we're actually capable of evaluating these ideas and how they affect what we want the game to be.
More than that the method doesn't even make sense with the conclusion. Dilute your potential market with player sourced SP at variable rates which limits your own sustainable price point? Good plan. One you can't walk away from without a pretty obvious handover of mechanics that has to screw someone over.
Further this IS pretty radical. Very much so as judged by the reaction. If the goal was non-controversial they failed spectacularly and should have retreated rather than proceeded given the first thread. And I doubt the reaction was much less so than the alternative end goal you suggest would generate.
That this is proceeding despite the feedback here is a bit surprising, but not as much given the complete opposite tone seemingly present on reddit. And rest assured even here they DID get positive feedback, a great deal of it which appeared throughout the ragefest that was the original thread.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1861
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 05:26:36 -
[712] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:I've never understood why CCP just doesn't have some kind of voting option for these hotly debated feature discussion. If the vast majority of players are so against this, then a vote would tell what the community wants. Truth is they really don't care as long as there are some (no matter how little) who are in favor of this terrabad idea, then that's the green light for CCP. Or maybe design by committee is just a really bad idea. Also maybe hyperbole and accusations of malice aren't the best tools for convincing an audience. Just maybe. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2047
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 06:01:17 -
[713] - Quote
Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Nankeen Heron
Jim's Mowing
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 06:33:26 -
[714] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I've never understood why CCP just doesn't have some kind of voting option for these hotly debated feature discussion.
CSM Elections?
I don't have a problem with skill extraction/injection, but why not simplify the process of redistributing SP for a given character?
Havng played the game for many years, I've trained all kinds of random stuff that seemed like a good idea at the time, but never actually use (PI anyone?) Being able to transfer the SP from those bad decisions to another skill seems fair enough to me - I've already spent the time (and ISK) training it. |
Lavayar
russian sobr Dream Fleet
235
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 07:00:53 -
[715] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times: Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games Well there we go. I'll never get him to join. But from me to you CCP: /´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
Best ever!
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4510
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 07:51:43 -
[716] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Alexis Nightwish wrote:Bit late to the party, and I'm sure this will be ignored just as the 300+ page threadnaught clearly was, but I brought it up to a friend who I've tried to get into EVE a few times: Me: Got a few minutes to read something? Me: I'd like your opinion on it. Friend: sure Me: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/ Friend: Looks cool Friend: That's about all I would have an account for Friend: selling skill points Me: It costs AUR which is microtransaction monies to drain SP from a character. Friend: lame Me: You can get AUR by converting PLEX, and you can get PLEX with in game ISK. Me: So you can buy AUR with RL money, or with in game money. Friend: So they're adding more pay to win to the game Friend: those guys with the multiple accounts will just buy more accounts Friend: and pay for skillpoints Me: If you were new to EVE Online and saw this option what would your reaction be? Friend: me personally? Me: Yeah Me: You play a lot of games Friend: I'd prob just leave cause I don't play pay to win games Well there we go. I'll never get him to join. But from me to you CCP: /´¯/) ,/¯ / / / /´¯/' '/´¯¯`·¸ /'/ / / /¨¯\ ('( ´ ´ ¯~/' ') \ ' / '' \ _ ·´ \ ( \ \
Yes that's another thing I've been trying to explain to people but alas. This whole "think of the newbies" is (as it always has been) a lie. Newbies will look at this, see a whiff of P2W and go "so I have to pay extra to catch up" and won't even bother playing. There's only four reasons people are in favour of this idea. a) they want to get rid of some skills because their OCD demands it (so it's for selfish reasons) b) they have some old high SP chars they don't have a use for any more and they'll bleed that one for personal use (so for selfish reasons) c) they see a new market they can dive into, preferably one where they create their own supply and demand, quite possibly with RMT in mind (so for selfish reasons). This is what large "newbro" entities will be doing d) someone rich going "lol, I'll make an OP alt. This will be fun" So CCP, and parts of the CSM it seems, listened to their :logic: about how it would be good for the game & newbies and they gobbled it up, they fell for it because they're not intelligent enough to see through it. And personally I'm not interested in playing a game who's DEVS are too stupid to poop to a point where they require constant "wtf are you doing CCP" by each and every CSM, year after year. THIS time CCP did something truly ******** and I want no part of it. Goodbye EVE.
I had him blocked so didn't see this. Now I see that Gregor Parud has been biomassed.
That's one standout. o7 Gregor Parud (the character).
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
803
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 07:53:11 -
[717] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nakaara Adahsa wrote:Having thought about this a bit more, I'm beginning to think that CCP would prefer to implement a direct PLEX-for-skill-points scheme but that they may be too afraid to do that just yet. Prior player backlash over radical feature changes may have taught them to make changes more incrementally to test player acceptance. More importantly, though, gradual change can be a tool to *condition* players to eventually accept something they otherwise might revolt en masse over.
I think that's the target endgame for this feature: direct PLEX-for-skill points. No skill extractor nonsense, no pretense of "experienced players being kind to new players and giving them skill points", etc. This is all just a facade to get players to swallow a bitter pill before making the REAL intended game change in another year or so.
If this is the plan, that would help to explain why they've ignored all of the negative feedback that they received the first time this idea was mentioned a few months ago. I think they've already decided this and are prepared to ignore all player protests until and unless they see a real drop in financial revenue after doing this.
Clearly they don't regard players as customers to be served but rather as sheep to be herded wherever CCP wants them to go. The problem is that this supposed target endgame is an indefensible position whether injectors are in place or not. Unless you're considering the plan to be a complete churn of the player-base within the scope of this plan it doesn't play out. Those that are in favor of this are in favor as is, from what I've seen of support posts anyways, under parallels to existing mechanics and functions. Your slippery slope calculated end point doesn't have that and is entirely dependent on people just forgetting the principles the game should have. While I like the addition of the implications there that everyone who isn't strongly against this is soft in the head for not buying the doom prophecies your selling on top of in time suggesting we'd just roll over and accept a change we do have issue with, maybe we could be given the benefit of the doubt that we're actually capable of evaluating these ideas and how they affect what we want the game to be. More than that the method doesn't even make sense with the conclusion. Dilute your potential market with player sourced SP at variable rates which limits your own sustainable price point? Good plan. One you can't walk away from without a pretty obvious handover of mechanics that has to screw someone over. Further this IS pretty radical. Very much so as judged by the reaction. If the goal was non-controversial they failed spectacularly and should have retreated rather than proceeded given the first thread. And I doubt the reaction was much less so than the alternative end goal you suggest would generate. That this is proceeding despite the feedback here is a bit surprising, but not as much given the complete opposite tone seemingly present on reddit. And rest assured even here they DID get positive feedback, a great deal of it which appeared throughout the ragefest that was the original thread. It is a shame many of the r/e posters openly admit to no longer actually play the game, with many more simply playing skill cues online. This is of course the best group to garner feedback from, isn't it..
Tiberius - Try doing a show all posts on the original r/e thread, Reddit has a very special way of "hiding" posts - If a Dev thread becomes too "anti eve" it is soon "moderated".
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4510
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 07:56:41 -
[718] - Quote
Zavia Uristis wrote:(...) Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. My question is: How is this going to help bringing in newer players?
Free tip: CCP gave up bringing in new players when the Rubicon Plan was introduced on November 2014. Since then they've gone full ahead with splitting the content into slices of slices of the same old cake.
Point in case: Drifter Incursion runners as a minority within the Incursion runner minority.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Lavayar
russian sobr Dream Fleet
236
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 08:07:48 -
[719] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:And in case anyone is looking for my reaction:
I wasn't a fan when this was first brought to the CSM. I still have concerns over it, but I've been talking with some of the proponents (players) for the idea, and what they're saying has some merit. My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.
And for everyone who thinks that this will help new players I'll cite again one of CSM members.
So, how much, CCP? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1862
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 08:13:28 -
[720] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:It is a shame many of the r/e posters openly admit to no longer actually play the game, with many more simply playing skill cues online. This is of course the best group to garner feedback from, isn't it..
Tiberius - Try doing a show all posts on the original r/e thread, Reddit has a very special way of "hiding" posts - If a Dev thread becomes too "anti eve" it is soon "moderated". Ironically, even if that were an accurate representation of the population, wouldn't that make their input all the more relevant? After all skill queue online is the part of the game most being shaken up. Everything else operates as normal.
Further reddit is an echo chamber, the posts you see (without sorting for controvertials) are those that are popular by it's function. No one said people didn't disagree there, but by the functions of reddit the popular views rise to the top. |
|
erg cz
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
387
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 08:53:32 -
[721] - Quote
New player will have no ISK to buy this skill injectors. Old player's alts will get rapidly developed so one day old char will be able to fly T3 destroyer and laugh at other newbies, who cant. "Look, I am only 2 weeks old and my killboard is full of *** killed! Thats the way EvE must be played, if you can not match this you sucks. I am new and I am op! bla... bla... bla..."
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
803
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:14:05 -
[722] - Quote
Nankeen Heron wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:I've never understood why CCP just doesn't have some kind of voting option for these hotly debated feature discussion. CSM Elections? I don't have a problem with skill extraction/injection, but why not simplify the process of redistributing SP for a given character? Havng played the game for many years, I've trained all kinds of random stuff that seemed like a good idea at the time, but never actually use (PI anyone?) Being able to transfer the SP from those bad decisions to another skill seems fair enough to me - I've already spent the time (and ISK) training it. CSM elections? Oh you mean the farce held each year, where nominees are divided up among the groups with a vested interest in representation and voting lists distributed to line members.
You can now (as of February) redistribute those skills, you just get to pay for it and cop the diminishing returns.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
wizzard66
Evolution Northern Coalition.
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:15:27 -
[723] - Quote
Bad bad bad idea |
Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21010
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:20:07 -
[724] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:MiSANTHR0PE wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however: Quote:The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this? On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin. It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there) I imagine it's less the venue, and more that they heard what they wanted to hear while conveniently tuning out the rest. The blog is even worded in a way that it can still be technically correct: I'm sure many of us do, indeed, think it's a good idea. Of course, "many" isn't a relative quantifier, such as "most" or "a majority" - it's just an arbitrary value of "a lot". Obviously many of us also think it's a ******* terrible idea, but that didn't receive any mention for some reason. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but the whole blog reads like an infomercial to me. I called it back in the original thread. This was a done deal from the start. The first blog was merely a PR stunt. I also said in another thread they would ignore the feedback that didn't fit their stance and focus on the ones that did.
I see they have done away with the charade regarding the bazaar this time and focused on the true agenda. I'm still waiting to see a reason why we need this, other than a money grab from CCP. The whole helping newbros line is an absolute joke. There are far better ways to do that without fleecing them this way.
While I'm undecided on what to do with my account, I do know CCP are never getting another penny of my money again. The wife's is happy with that, so thanks for some good from this.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Samus Arkain
Remnants of the Forgotten Seekers of the Unseen
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:22:25 -
[725] - Quote
I don't normally post on these forums. However, I will quit this game if it becomes as simple as a big wallet pays for skills. I have worked for years training a very specific skill plan, and the game will ruin such accomplishments overnight by this action. I have long tried to ignore the rumors that CCP no longer listens to its players and just does what it wants. However, in the most recent post they claim that a lot of players seem on board with this idea. A quick look through this set of comments show that is untrue. Clearly a great deal of players are upset with the idea, and you are more than likely about to make another decision that will significantly damage this game. Many players aren't even aware of what you're about to do, and when I notified them, they were very upset. Sadly, it's a decision that cannot be undone once made, as many characters will already be significantly altered only days after this action. So please, see it for what it is now, and do not ruin this excellent game.
TL:DR? Don't do it.
Sea. |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
312
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:30:12 -
[726] - Quote
This is a clear example of confirmation bias. When this was first suggested an overwhelming amount of players voiced their disapproval, yet here comes the day we will see this bullshit mechanic implemented.
For me, personally, this is where I am going to step away and stop throwing money at CCP to keep their game alive. The last time I did so was during monoclegate.. I doubt I will return again this time. |
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:43:38 -
[727] - Quote
Can you extract points on a trial account ?
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
Dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
84
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:48:12 -
[728] - Quote
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:CCP can you please have the skill point extractor "Extract" 512,000 SP instead of "500,000". 500,000 does not make sense the way skills are right now. if you inject SP you will have 12,000 left over if you try to get lvl5 in 2 level 1 skills and or 1 level 2 skills.
What about removing this **** completely and lay off the developer who had this utterly sick wacky idea? Maybe I'm going to resub again then. Maybe.
Either way this is going to be a ripoff....
EVE Veteran
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
803
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 09:51:21 -
[729] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:It is a shame many of the r/e posters openly admit to no longer actually play the game, with many more simply playing skill cues online. This is of course the best group to garner feedback from, isn't it..
Tiberius - Try doing a show all posts on the original r/e thread, Reddit has a very special way of "hiding" posts - If a Dev thread becomes too "anti eve" it is soon "moderated". Ironically, even if that were an accurate representation of the population, wouldn't that make their input all the more relevant? After all skill queue online is the part of the game most being shaken up. Everything else operates as normal. Further reddit is an echo chamber, the posts you see (without sorting for controvertials) are those that are popular by it's function. No one said people didn't disagree there, but by the functions of reddit the popular views rise to the top. As most of those I know playing skill cue online have lost interest in the current game play, I don't see it as being much of a shake up, there is still nothing to get them to login so nothing achieved. Those with higher skill levels who no longer login are often waiting for the next big change that makes eve exciting again, TSP's offer them little to nothing.
And of course Reddit is totally unbiased when it comes to "controversial". A post or thread that is controversial *and* popular can still be down voted via a simple jabber ping.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
883
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:00:47 -
[730] - Quote
Mag's wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:MiSANTHR0PE wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent regarding the entire notion of skill trading. I'm hard-pressed to really find anything overly objectionable (to me) about the idea itself. This part of the blog really stood out to me, however: Quote:The blog sparked a really great discussion in the EVE community. We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Did you guys hire a Fox News staffer to ghost write this? On its very best day, the response to this idea could never be described as anything other than, "Extremely contentious." Making it sound like it has been predominantly supported and, as good little Devs, you've listened to the community, is weapons-grade PR spin. It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there) I imagine it's less the venue, and more that they heard what they wanted to hear while conveniently tuning out the rest. The blog is even worded in a way that it can still be technically correct: I'm sure many of us do, indeed, think it's a good idea. Of course, "many" isn't a relative quantifier, such as "most" or "a majority" - it's just an arbitrary value of "a lot". Obviously many of us also think it's a ******* terrible idea, but that didn't receive any mention for some reason. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but the whole blog reads like an infomercial to me. I called it back in the original thread. This was a done deal from the start. The first blog was merely a PR stunt. I also said in another thread they would ignore the feedback that didn't fit their stance and focus on the ones that did. I see they have done away with the charade regarding the bazaar this time and focused on the true agenda. I'm still waiting to see a reason why we need this, other than a money grab from CCP. The whole helping newbros line is an absolute joke. There are far better ways to do that without fleecing them this way. While I'm undecided on what to do with my account, I do know CCP are never getting another penny of my money again. The wife's is happy with that, so thanks for some good from this. Oh and I honestly think, this will eventually bite you in the ass CCP.
I also called this in the original thread. It was so obvious what CCP were doing it was embarrassing.
I stopped paying for my 5 accounts 2 years ago, when CCPGÇÖs attitude pi55ed me off to the point of no return. IGÇÖm just using ISK now and will never pay them another penny.
|
|
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:01:33 -
[731] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
DO EEEEEET!!! |
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:04:52 -
[732] - Quote
Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game. |
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:22:16 -
[733] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game.
At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here.
Just grow a pair and skill up like we did.
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:26:28 -
[734] - Quote
Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here. Just grow a pair and skill up like we did.
Lol - so its brave to have patience?
Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e.
|
Malou Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:33:28 -
[735] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here. Just grow a pair and skill up like we did. Lol - so its brave to have patience? Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e.
WOW exists for people like you, go there. EVE used to be different. CCP are trying to change that.
CCP Philosophy ==>>
If it works, break it. If itGÇÖs broken, leave it and break something else.
Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
|
Wanda Fayne
138
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:37:15 -
[736] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game.
Now wealth is needed to play the game. Power to the wealthy. Sad times ahead... |
Sarina Aideron
Aideron Corp
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:40:55 -
[737] - Quote
Is this an untimely April fools joke? I hope CCP is not serious with this. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:50:32 -
[738] - Quote
Samus Arkain wrote:I don't normally post on these forums. However, I will quit this game if it becomes as simple as a big wallet pays for skills. I have worked for years training a very specific skill plan, and the game will ruin such accomplishments overnight by this action. I have long tried to ignore the rumors that CCP no longer listens to its players and just does what it wants. However, in the most recent post they claim that a lot of players seem on board with this idea. A quick look through this set of comments show that is untrue. Clearly a great deal of players are upset with the idea, and you are more than likely about to make another decision that will significantly damage this game. Many players aren't even aware of what you're about to do, and when I notified them, they were very upset. Sadly, it's a decision that cannot be undone once made, as many characters will already be significantly altered only days after this action. So please, see it for what it is now, and do not ruin this excellent game.
TL:DR? Don't do it.
Sea.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. They bailed him out big time.GÇ¥
can't believe for the passed weeks that none of the dev team at CCP have not even replyed to this dev blog what so ever, would be nice to have a message or a post regarding this dev blog as we are your paying customers.
just looks kinda of bad to the paying player base that if ccp can not be bothered to reply to its loyal paying customers, who are paying a sub each month, without a paying customers would put ccp out of business |
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 10:52:51 -
[739] - Quote
Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here. Just grow a pair and skill up like we did. Lol - so its brave to have patience? Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e. WOW exists for people like you, go there. EVE used to be different but CCP are trying to change that.
Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz), and this means change of certain aspects of this game.
In the old days EVE had spaceships - which entriuged people. Now alot of games has that (or they will deffinetly come within a year or 2), AAAAND dynamic, challenging and rewarding gameplay.
Its a fact - change is needed.
Im not doing the "EVE DYING"- argument, but everything changes - always. And if you cant adapt you die. |
Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 11:36:26 -
[740] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nakaara Adahsa wrote:Having thought about this a bit more, I'm beginning to think that CCP would prefer to implement a direct PLEX-for-skill-points scheme but that they may be too afraid to do that just yet. Prior player backlash over radical feature changes may have taught them to make changes more incrementally to test player acceptance. More importantly, though, gradual change can be a tool to *condition* players to eventually accept something they otherwise might revolt en masse over.
I think that's the target endgame for this feature: direct PLEX-for-skill points. No skill extractor nonsense, no pretense of "experienced players being kind to new players and giving them skill points", etc. This is all just a facade to get players to swallow a bitter pill before making the REAL intended game change in another year or so.
If this is the plan, that would help to explain why they've ignored all of the negative feedback that they received the first time this idea was mentioned a few months ago. I think they've already decided this and are prepared to ignore all player protests until and unless they see a real drop in financial revenue after doing this.
Clearly they don't regard players as customers to be served but rather as sheep to be herded wherever CCP wants them to go. The problem is that this supposed target endgame is an indefensible position whether injectors are in place or not. Unless you're considering the plan to be a complete churn of the player-base within the scope of this plan it doesn't play out. Those that are in favor of this are in favor as is, from what I've seen of support posts anyways, under parallels to existing mechanics and functions. Your slippery slope calculated end point doesn't have that and is entirely dependent on people just forgetting the principles the game should have. While I like the addition of the implications there that everyone who isn't strongly against this is soft in the head for not buying the doom prophecies your selling on top of in time suggesting we'd just roll over and accept a change we do have issue with, maybe we could be given the benefit of the doubt that we're actually capable of evaluating these ideas and how they affect what we want the game to be. More than that the method doesn't even make sense with the conclusion. Dilute your potential market with player sourced SP at variable rates which limits your own sustainable price point? Good plan. One you can't walk away from without a pretty obvious handover of mechanics that has to screw someone over. Further this IS pretty radical. Very much so as judged by the reaction. If the goal was non-controversial they failed spectacularly and should have retreated rather than proceeded given the first thread. And I doubt the reaction was much less so than the alternative end goal you suggest would generate. That this is proceeding despite the feedback here is a bit surprising, but not as much given the complete opposite tone seemingly present on reddit. And rest assured even here they DID get positive feedback, a great deal of it which appeared throughout the ragefest that was the original thread.
My expectation is that an eventual PLEX-for-skill-points mechanism in another year or so would replace the mechanism they are implementing now. Get players to accept a "skill point trading" scheme and then replace it with a "direct skill point buying" later on under the guise of making it more "convenient".
Do I know for certain this will happen? No, but it is the logical end-point if I were CCP and didn't care about players at all as long as a large enough minority buys enough PLEX to increase overall revenue. Their bet would be that most players will continue to subscribe despite griping and the minority that wants pay-to-win will buy more PLEX. |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 11:54:36 -
[741] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here. Just grow a pair and skill up like we did. Lol - so its brave to have patience? Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e. WOW exists for people like you, go there. EVE used to be different but CCP are trying to change that. Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz), and this means change of certain aspects of this game. In the old days EVE had spaceships - which entriuged people. Now alot of games has that (or they will deffinetly come within a year or 2), AAAAND dynamic, challenging and rewarding gameplay. Its a fact - change is needed. Im not doing the "EVE DYING"- argument, but everything changes - always. And if you cant adapt you die.
Average age of a 'gamer' is between 30 -38 by all accounts, I hardly class that as old! It's also the demographic that tends to prefer more visceral games rather than the instant gratification games preferred by the younger demographic. This seems to indicate a clear shift by CCP from longer term higher loyalty players to shorter term higher turnover players. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 11:56:44 -
[742] - Quote
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:
My expectation is that an eventual PLEX-for-skill-points mechanism in another year or so would replace the mechanism they are implementing now. Get players to accept a "skill point trading" scheme and then replace it with a "direct skill point buying" later on under the guise of making it more "convenient".
Do I know for certain this will happen? No, but it is the logical end-point if I were CCP and didn't care about players at all as long as a large enough minority buys enough PLEX to increase overall revenue. Their bet would be that most players will continue to subscribe despite griping and the minority that wants pay-to-win will buy more PLEX.
The logical endpoint is getting rid of skills all together. Welcome to World of Spaceships. |
RogueHunteer
Bespin Miners Guild Phoenix Company Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:05:54 -
[743] - Quote
Cost of the new item ? on aura store cost? |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
355
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:10:33 -
[744] - Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/41ti3f/skill_point_extractors_not_all_customers_should/
This man has a point.
Baddest poster ever
|
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:10:52 -
[745] - Quote
Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming? |
Hiircine
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:36:06 -
[746] - Quote
Sorry I'm too lazy to read all the 38 pages of topic, maybe this idea has already been mentionned.
But with this system, all rich isk or real money people can skills an high end character in a few time. I think we need a cooldown on the use of skill injector, allowing one use by week for example. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
369
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:53:35 -
[747] - Quote
Hiircine wrote:Sorry I'm too lazy to read all the 38 pages of topic, maybe this idea has already been mentionned.
But with this system, all rich isk or real money people can skills an high end character in a few time. I think we need a cooldown on the use of skill injector, allowing one use by week for example.
I proposed 2 a year somewhat earlier in thread.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3120
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 12:54:58 -
[748] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem.
Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from to Reddit, oe whatever it is called.
That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.
This is not a signature.
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:19:41 -
[749] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk. Seriously, do you actually trust 1-day characters? Because personally I bug out when I see the known gank ships (certain destroyers, for example), I don't even wait to show info on the character. Destroyer in the overview? Bug out!!! And even then it's too late. Do you trust a 1-day character coming near you to mine in his Venture? Because they're the perfect "warp to fleet member at 0 km" setup to kill you with point blank heavy damage suicide gank ships. 1-day doesn't mean anything. You help 1-day newbies in the Newbie Q/A forums, not in game. Can't trust anyone in-game. So how many SP they have is moot. And I will repeat this for you.. The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.
What does this have to do with 1-day old gank alts? |
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:32:22 -
[750] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote: Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz)
Im 36 and not planning on dying any time soon, thank you very much.
|
|
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:34:11 -
[751] - Quote
Also, in-game consequence might be, that it will not be possible to judge player capability based on its age. So, CCP, question is, whats the long-term prediction on a consequence of this ? |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
704
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:46:48 -
[752] - Quote
Querns wrote:Hubs wrote:This "Pay to Win" option worries me immensely and makes me somewhat sad... How is this "pay to win?" SP injectors aren't for sale on the AUR store; only the extractors are.
Cause you cant buy multiple toons and stockpile them into one, while you could buy multiple skill points injections and boost one single character greatly. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:48:22 -
[753] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming?
That was from a quick google where the articles quoted 30-38 as the low and high ends for gaming in general. Interestingly one of the articles pointed out that in general its people under ~20 and over ~30 playing but the average falls in between. Most polls tend to find what they want though which is why I took the lowest and highest age as most seemed to agree on that at least |
Wendrika Hydreiga
598
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:49:46 -
[754] - Quote
Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:50:15 -
[755] - Quote
Luna Bowman wrote:Before: 1 day old gank alt in poorly fit frigate / maaaaybe a destroyer? After: 1 day old gank alt in max skilled tornado, after buying 6 million SP worth of injectors by his main?
What does this have to do with the consequences of your choices in EVE? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:55:18 -
[756] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine.
The problem comes when people who like the game get fed up of being ignored about changes such as this and really do just give up. Then the game suffers. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:58:33 -
[757] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Some people just quietly unsubscribe. And sadly, some of them who are used to paying 3 or 6 months at a time, still have several months prepaid, so the subscribed numbers may not immediately show the fall. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:58:41 -
[758] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.
This bugs me too, these forums as far as I understand are current subbed players only, i.e. the opinions of those actually playing the game. You can only like a post and not actively beat i down (other than by arguing your point).
Reddit is a forum for anyone (whether active or not) and can be manipulated through aggressive downvoting of any post (no matter how well reasoned) that does not fit with the view of the largest group with the most to benefit from any given change.
Doesn't strike me as a smart way to gather feedback. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 14:00:35 -
[759] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Some people just quietly unsubscribe. And sadly, some of them who are used to paying 3 or 6 months at a time, still have several months prepaid, so the subscribed numbers may not immediately show the fall.
Conversely there will also be a group of players who will play out their pre-paid time and then not resub leading to drops in numbers 3, 6, 9, and 12 months down the line when people won't even remember why. |
Luna Bowman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 14:24:53 -
[760] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Luna Bowman wrote:Before: 1 day old gank alt in poorly fit frigate / maaaaybe a destroyer? After: 1 day old gank alt in max skilled tornado, after buying 6 million SP worth of injectors by his main? What does this have to do with the consequences of your choices in EVE?
Im not talking about actions and their consequences, im asking about meta-game consequences for EVE, that can be brought with this change (i.e. not being able to judge character capability based on its age, anymore) |
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 14:36:05 -
[761] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.
That's a bit disappointing if true. The devblog linked here as the comments and I don't even have an account in Reddit. If they were going to do that then why not just link straight to Reddit in future instead. Hopefully a Dev will stick in a "we're still reading this" post so we can stop worrying and go back to beating up on the idea^H^H^H^H^H providing constructive feedback. |
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
292
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 14:42:11 -
[762] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really. This bugs me too, these forums as far as I understand are current subbed players only, i.e. the opinions of those actually playing the game. You can only like a post and not actively beat i down (other than by arguing your point). Reddit is a forum for anyone (whether active or not) and can be manipulated through aggressive downvoting of any post (no matter how well reasoned) that does not fit with the view of the largest group with the most to benefit from any given change. Doesn't strike me as a smart way to gather feedback. I'm going to have to be a cynic here, and say, seeing as how they handled the last few patch feedback threads, ESPECIALLY the new icon thread, it does NOT look like they have any interest in criticism, or feedback.
For well over a year now, they have only responded to posts praising them, and ignored everything else. |
James Lorden
Blue Bird Adventures
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 14:52:16 -
[763] - Quote
I would love to see no penalty If using on a single account. I would love to recover that training that I mistakenly ran when I wasn't sure what to train or recover the SP on my Alts that I never use. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
204
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:06:39 -
[764] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine.
There's always someone willing to stand by their convictions.
I saw "PTFU" coined earlier in this thread.
|
David Semris
House Semris
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:16:37 -
[765] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Some people just quietly unsubscribe. And sadly, some of them who are used to paying 3 or 6 months at a time, still have several months prepaid, so the subscribed numbers may not immediately show the fall.
Tell me about it, subscribed till early 2018.
Anyway I do not take this game very seriously because I simply cannot compete in it... People with 10 accounts make 10 times the money, in PvP they have their own scouts and off-grid fleet boosts or a logi at hand, they do not have to care for loses cos they can have fun and easily cover their loses with alts at the same time. Basically the very fact that you can be online with more than 1 character at once means I cannot take this MMO seriously.
But at least I had fun developing my own character, seeing how he was developing and how he will yet develop in a year or two or three and what he will be able to try and fly efficiently. Eh, no, not anymore. Just buy SP. Max out character. Set the charges and end it.
Buy more accounts, buy ISKs, buy Aurum or whatever and now finally buy SPs (heh, all we miss in this discussion are the guys with the "SPs do not matter" rhetoric)...
If I would have spent a small amount of Euro from what I have spent on this game in Guild Wars 2 (just an example), I would have my characters in legendary gear set for life. And I thought that game was greedy (stupid free to play (pay to win) model).
I don-¦t know what more to say. I always used to say in-game that ISKs do not matter (you can buy them with Euro) and now SPs will not matter. What will actually matter... Why not remove SPs at all? Well because removing them would not generate money.
Enough of my rambling, let-¦s end this with "this change is baaaad and I mean baaaaad." |
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:22:02 -
[766] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming? That was from a quick google where the articles quoted 30-38 as the low and high ends for gaming in general. Interestingly one of the articles pointed out that in general its people under ~20 and over ~30 playing but the average falls in between. Most polls tend to find what they want though which is why I took the lowest and highest age as most seemed to agree on that at least
Now - that makes more sence then - and it also makes my argument more true. Stooooopiiiid to bring up such numbers without explaining! |
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:26:30 -
[767] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.
Now if thats true - the guy using Reddit in CCP over this forum should be sacked immidietly for not using the right communication channel. THAT IS ******* STUPID!
OR by all sense get rid of eve forums all together and just use reddit. God that is dumb. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1915
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:29:54 -
[768] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming? That was from a quick google where the articles quoted 30-38 as the low and high ends for gaming in general. Interestingly one of the articles pointed out that in general its people under ~20 and over ~30 playing but the average falls in between. Most polls tend to find what they want though which is why I took the lowest and highest age as most seemed to agree on that at least Now - that makes more sence then - and it also makes my argument more true. Stooooopiiiid to bring up such numbers without explaining!
Please do explain how this backs up your 'argument', preferably without insults (that aren't even spelt correctly :) ) |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2055
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:34:51 -
[769] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really. Maybe they did actually answer but ISD removed it for trolling...
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Mercur Fighter
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:35:42 -
[770] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you!
+1 from me |
|
Wendrika Hydreiga
600
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:36:43 -
[771] - Quote
Well, I stand corrected!
But I still like the fact I get to trade skill points.
For starters, CCP can in the future include Skill Injectors in their newbie starter packs (Colonist, Explorer, etc.) and make the skill books included in them seem less redundant. Future events could include them in their loot tables, increasing the incentives for running the event sites.
And SiSI will be a lot more fun since you can virtually inject infinite skill points in the event they seed the market with Skill Injectors.
Possibilities: Endless |
Cixi
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:49:26 -
[772] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Querns wrote:Hubs wrote:This "Pay to Win" option worries me immensely and makes me somewhat sad... How is this "pay to win?" SP injectors aren't for sale on the AUR store; only the extractors are. Cause you cant buy multiple toons and stockpile them into one, while you could buy multiple skill points injections and boost one single character greatly.
Having a lot of SP is not "winning", experience matter a lot too |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 16:16:50 -
[773] - Quote
After thinking this over for a long time I finally decided that this change is good. Not for the game necessarily - but for me personally. I am playing this game for some time on four accounts that are all on paid subscription. I am far from being space rich but if I consolidate my assets that are not necessary for my current gameplay, I can buy app. 100 PLEX. As I do not really enjoy multiboxing, I do need only 2 accounts - the other 2 are maintained because it is cheaper compared to multiple character training, I need app. 15 mln skillpoints in total to have all alt where they should be.
My adaption plan:
So I will buy SP for the alts, consolidate my accounts into 2 and play on Plex until the lights go out or I lose interest. Even if my accounts go inactive over some time, its not a huge issue, as I can buy lost SP for virtual money if I feel I need to (at a premium ofc - but Its still virtual). So in my case, CCP will keep a loyal customer and I will save 720 EUR per year. Classical win/win, isn't it? |
Makalu Zarya
Perkone Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 16:26:27 -
[774] - Quote
I guess we all foresaw the move to the "pay-to-win" system in EvE eventually. While I'm somewhat hopeful that this will open the way for the current generation of gamers who seem to only stick around if they get something right there and then, this is a pretty sad development for veterans who have put in years of meticulous skill training.
Looking over my char. sheet I counted up about 150k of wasted sp that I would like to give back and lots of very focused pilots are the same way and in a way this seems like another middle finger to the veteran community much like the supercap nerf.
While it is true that any newbie could just go out and buy a char. on the bazaar you were never very likely to find a character that didn't have loads of wasted skill points in skills that you never wanted. People just bought what was closest to their goal and went with it. The wasted skills were just that, wasted skills, never to be used.
Perhaps this will turn out well for EvE, time will tell, however I have a feeling that much like the supercap nerf it will lead to more veterans not playing while not retaining any of the newer players once they realize that no amount of sp will buy them skill or experience.
But then again...I don't even play, so who cares for what i think.
-maka
ps. However given recent slew of changes rolled out by CCP it seems that they don't care what anyone other than themselves think. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 16:28:55 -
[775] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Querns wrote:Hubs wrote:This "Pay to Win" option worries me immensely and makes me somewhat sad... How is this "pay to win?" SP injectors aren't for sale on the AUR store; only the extractors are. Cause you cant buy multiple toons and stockpile them into one, while you could buy multiple skill points injections and boost one single character greatly. Having a lot of SP is not "winning", experience matter a lot too Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: And SiSI will be a lot more fun since you can virtually inject infinite skill points in the event they seed the market with Skill Injectors.
Damn I didn't think about this, that would be awesome
Having a lot of SP is not winning - look at it as getting into a position of advantage quicker by using a Credit Card.
If you don't spend your real life money then you spend a few months training alts up to gas harvest and another to be mining booster, then a few more months to learn T3 production - I'll be doing it tomorrow
Then the same alts need to be trained up in Pi - that's a month each, more if you don't remap - If you don't use your CC fine - I'll be harvesting Pi tomorrow .
As for fighting, I like force recons and they will need a booster - you can wait 140 days/ 160 days - I will be in recons + booster tomorrow.
|
Luther Fairfax
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 16:29:34 -
[776] - Quote
I keep reading the argument that this isn't P2W because "Experience matters" in Eve.
Yes it does. In PVP.
Any noob with a CC who is interested in Manufacturing, PI, Mining, Copying/Researching BPO's can still leverage this mechanic to max out a character for his preferred Industrial activities, and can potentially still make disgusting amounts of isk because on the industrial side of the game, skillpoints matter far more than player experience.
Any monkey can go out and mine or build caps provided they have the SP and isk. It doesn't take skill to queue up jobs at a station. They've always had the isk thanks to plex, now they'll have the SP as well. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
250
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 16:32:28 -
[777] - Quote
Can I use this while hours to plex'ed?
|
Cixi
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 16:32:49 -
[778] - Quote
Luther Fairfax wrote:I keep reading the argument that this isn't P2W because "Experience matters" in Eve.
Yes it does. In PVP.
Any noob with a CC who is interested in Manufacturing, PI, Mining, Copying/Researching BPO's can still leverage this mechanic to max out a character for his preferred Industrial activities, and can potentially still make disgusting amounts of isk because on the industrial side of the game, skillpoints matter far more than player experience.
Any monkey can go out and mine or build caps provided they have the SP and isk. It doesn't take skill to queue up jobs at a station. They've always had the isk thanks to plex, now they'll have the SP as well.
I am waiting to see this wave of wannabee industrial injecting production skills and having no idea what they need to do next |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 17:02:24 -
[779] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:After thinking this over for a long time I finally decided that this change is good. Not for the game necessarily - but for me personally. I am playing this game for some time on four accounts that are all on paid subscription. I am far from being space rich but if I consolidate my assets that are not necessary for my current gameplay, I can buy app. 100 PLEX. As I do not really enjoy multiboxing, I do need only 2 accounts - the other 2 are maintained because it is cheaper compared to multiple character training, I need app. 15 mln skillpoints in total to have all alt where they should be.
My adaption plan:
So I will buy SP for the alts, consolidate my accounts into 2 and play on Plex until the lights go out or I lose interest. Even if my accounts go inactive over some time, its not a huge issue, as I can buy lost SP for virtual money if I feel I need to (at a premium ofc - but Its still virtual). So in my case, CCP will keep a loyal customer and I will save 720 EUR per year. Classical win/win, isn't it?
I said something similar to this in the previous thread-naught: Provided they price the extractors so that they can be farmed for profit I will be farming skill points and along with my other income use the ISK to play for free.
I am at an OK point in EVE where I have goals but I don't mind setting them aside - So farming all my toons is not out of the question - Let the skill queue stagnation begin.
|
Luther Fairfax
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 17:19:14 -
[780] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Luther Fairfax wrote:I keep reading the argument that this isn't P2W because "Experience matters" in Eve.
Yes it does. In PVP.
Any noob with a CC who is interested in Manufacturing, PI, Mining, Copying/Researching BPO's can still leverage this mechanic to max out a character for his preferred Industrial activities, and can potentially still make disgusting amounts of isk because on the industrial side of the game, skillpoints matter far more than player experience.
Any monkey can go out and mine or build caps provided they have the SP and isk. It doesn't take skill to queue up jobs at a station. They've always had the isk thanks to plex, now they'll have the SP as well. I am waiting to see this wave of wannabee industrial injecting production skills and having no idea what they need to do next Lady Rift wrote:Can I use this while hours to plex'ed?
I would say no because CCP want you to use a plex during this period, but who now ?
Sure as there are idiots who lose 70 plex in a noob ship there will be rich noobs with daddy's credit card to max out their accounts. Not saying it will be common, but it will now be possible and people will do it if CCP allows them to.
Which they will, ofc. Because more money in their pocket. |
|
Soltys
54
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 17:19:47 -
[781] - Quote
Luther Fairfax wrote:I keep reading the argument that this isn't P2W because "Experience matters" in Eve.
Yes it does. In PVP.
Any noob with a CC who is interested in Manufacturing, PI, Mining, Copying/Researching BPO's can still leverage this mechanic to max out a character for his preferred Industrial activities, and can potentially still make disgusting amounts of isk because on the industrial side of the game, skillpoints matter far more than player experience.
Any monkey can go out and mine or build caps provided they have the SP and isk. It doesn't take skill to queue up jobs at a station. They've always had the isk thanks to plex, now they'll have the SP as well.
To make not so obscene money from copy/research that would be a decade too late to start. PI is a joke, not obscene amount of money. You won't be bathing in isk either from manufacturing in this severely overproduced economy. And to even a scratch a decent profit from any of those (these days especially), requires decent amount of studying and befriending 3rd party tools/excel/etc.
It's what many people have been repeating ad-nauseum: SP means nothing, it only walls (months to years depending on chosen activity) people away from what they could be doing (whether at all, or with sensible potential efficiency).
Besides, they can buy narrowly focused character on bazaar (whether directly for isk or indirectly for $$$s).
Furthermore, the only difference from not being to able to do bazaar/sp is that they would setup character and come back [many] month(s) later (if at all). SP (auto-botting XP bar) is completely disjoint from whatever one does in the game and how.
I remember posts from 2005-6 and people complaining about SP being uncatchable thorn in the side of this game. It's sad it took a whole decade more before they decided to start kicking this nonsense out. The sooner it's gone completely or becomes non-factor, the better for everyone.
Could it be done in better fashion (and more direct) ? Sure. But then the barrels of tears from SP e-peen wiggling whiners would also be notably bigger.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
367
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 17:29:10 -
[782] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:After thinking this over for a long time I finally decided that this change is good. Not for the game necessarily - but for me personally. I am playing this game for some time on four accounts that are all on paid subscription. I am far from being space rich but if I consolidate my assets that are not necessary for my current gameplay, I can buy app. 100 PLEX. As I do not really enjoy multiboxing, I do need only 2 accounts - the other 2 are maintained because it is cheaper compared to multiple character training, I need app. 15 mln skillpoints in total to have all alt where they should be.
My adaption plan:
So I will buy SP for the alts, consolidate my accounts into 2 and play on Plex until the lights go out or I lose interest. Even if my accounts go inactive over some time, its not a huge issue, as I can buy lost SP for virtual money if I feel I need to (at a premium ofc - but Its still virtual). So in my case, CCP will keep a loyal customer and I will save 720 EUR per year. Classical win/win, isn't it? Pretty much what I was thinking too. Skill trading will be pretty good for players with a lot of SP spread over multiple chars. So in that respect this is good. I think in the long term it will devalue the game though. Aurum for skins was the first step in this direction and now with skill trading eve is a completely different game to that which I bought into years ago. Things are being developed with the attention deficit crowd in mind and with micro-transactions being interwoven into the fabric of the game.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Zavia Uristis
Numvisia
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 17:41:05 -
[783] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Zavia Uristis wrote:(...) Quote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. My question is: How is this going to help bringing in newer players? Free tip: CCP gave up bringing in new players when the Rubicon Plan was introduced on November 2014. Since then they've gone full ahead with splitting the content into slices of slices of the same old cake. Point in case: Drifter Incursion runners as a minority within the Incursion runner minority.
Hey, thanks for your answer.
I don't know what the developer team plans are exactly, but I assume they want new players. We might agree or disagree in the means, but it would be surprising if they didn't want players to come play the game they work on.
In any case, the official post states that one of the purposes of this change is to help newer players. I have been wanting to play EVE for some time. It's such a beautiful game. But the money cost was holding me from doing it. Finally, after the new year party I decided that I could allocate a few dollars per month to this. Yes, I know, this is personal background that nobody has interest in. But I just want to say that I think this new feature won't provide anything to me personally. I assume people will sell this item on the market at PLEX prices (i.e. more than a billion), and as a new player, I'm not able (or still don't know how) to make this ISK in a time that makes it worth it for the skill points. And well, assume that I can do it, but farming ISK to earn skill points doesn't seem right. You may point me to buy PLEX to sell it in the market, but I'm not going to spend money on that. Plus, and I know this might be just me, but I want my ISK balance to be the consequence of my merits playing the game, not the consequence of swiping my debit card.
Well, I just wanted to share my personal view, and explain why I think my question remains unanswered. It would be great if someone from CCP could elaborate the point on "bringing in newer players", but I know this post has already too many responses to answer everything.
Thanks for reading all this if you did! |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5675
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 18:51:19 -
[784] - Quote
It doesn't take "much" skill to master a ship.
Most skill points are "wasted" on versatility. |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
843
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 19:39:38 -
[785] - Quote
im grabbing another bag of popcorn ! while this FLAMEFEST continues ! |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1642
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 20:05:16 -
[786] - Quote
Soltys wrote:
To make not so obscene money from copy/research that would be a decade too late to start. PI is a joke, not obscene amount of money. You won't be bathing in isk either from manufacturing in this severely overproduced economy. And to even a scratch a decent profit from any of those (these days especially), requires decent amount of studying and befriending 3rd party tools/excel/etc.
I can generate a couple billion in profit per week with a few minutes of effort a day with manufacturing on a single character.
PI income, particularly for pure factory planets, is ******* *ludicrous* right now thanks to the massive speculative pre-build of citadel components currently taking place.
You are possibly just bad at the game.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 20:11:23 -
[787] - Quote
I have really enjoyed reading this threadnaught, especially the entire spectrum of "the sky is falling" responses that are so obviously ignorant to the current game mechanics, state of CCP's business and the MMO genre in general. This ignorance is not isolated to the newer players who could be excused for their naive rantings but rather is being pushed strongly by bittervets. Here is a mild wake up call;
1) Please direct yourself to the Character Bazaar section of the forums, for you geographically ignorant players, click on the forum index tab up on your left and then scroll down until it slaps you in the face. That's the place that has been "Pay to Win" from day one and you scrubtards have religiously bought and sold toons on there in full recognition that you were contributing to that mentality. I don't exempt myself I have bought and sold plenty of toons, some out of need, some in chase of an opportunity. It's been there quite awhile and guess what....the game lives on!
2) CCP is a business, and ALL businesses must put the bottom line before the wants of any segment of the customer base ESPECIALLY a player base as narrow focused and childish as this vocal segment. You say you've played this game for "X" years...get over yourself. Your subscription time does not grant you access to the decision making process the company has to engage in for it's survival and long term financial health. CCP has shown us a glimpse of their plans and those plans are exciting, I can't wait to experience the next iterations they have in development. But guess what, those types of things cost money, and if it angers you that CCP hasn't just come out and said this change will help fund future development then you truly are as thick headed as I envision.
3) The entire argument that "this isn't WOW or WOT" or whatever MMO you find contemptible is a farce, you are the same group of sanctimonious jackoffs who espouse the "Eve is dead" crap because logins are down. Let me clue you in to something, the majority of gamer's want to log in, play their game (pew, build or whatever) then log out and go on with their lives. Laugh all you want at WOW but they have something Eve doesn't right now and that is metric ass tons of subscribers, let me translate that for you...more people to hang with, shoot at or whatever. Easing the burden of entry in this way will probably appeal to many casual gamers looking for a new experience, it certainly won't dissuade someone who hasn't played Eve.
Eve is difficult, more challenging by far than any other MMO, the depth and breadth of options available to a player are unparalleled in any other platform. But it is still a business, whose employees careers and livelihood depend on its long term success. Making Eve less difficult by allowing an alternative to an already accepted character trading process, does not make the game less difficult nor will it ever replace the time needed behind the keyboard to find success. The entire "Pay to Win" argument overlooks this aspect of the coming change. New players garner no real benefit from this change as they still need to learn the nuances of their chosen profession, mid level veterans gain the ability to make up for lost time by ejecting wasted skills and replacing them (at a loss) with more appropriate skills. We old players are entirely unaffected by the whole thing, and that I think works as intended. |
Majix Mania
Remnants of the Forgotten Seekers of the Unseen
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 20:21:52 -
[788] - Quote
first reaction for me was, eve is going pay to win,
it was said before when plex was introduced, but with plex you could have as much isk by selling it in the market, but then you realize that isk does not help you since you still need the skill's for the ship to be able to fly it.
now thanks to ccp skill trading they are making sure you buy more plex, exchange it into isk, buy the skills and be Op in overnight. I don't relly care how long it will be a day, a week or even months,
since the past 9 months to train my skill and be able to fly now the ship i wanted, when i heard about skill trading, i thought it was a joke, sadly it was not.
they only way for me to see this working is when a person can play around with his/her own skill point made through training, and only be able to extract existing points he/she made and ONLY use it on them self, with cool downs like revamping implants points. no selling it in the market.
in the end at least for me, eve is becoming a pay to win,
|
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 20:25:36 -
[789] - Quote
" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1448
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:13:49 -
[790] - Quote
Neva Second wrote:
2) CCP is a business, and ALL businesses must put the bottom line before the wants of any segment of the customer base ESPECIALLY a player base as narrow focused and childish as this vocal segment. You say you've played this game for "X" years...get over yourself. Your subscription time does not grant you access to the decision making process the company has to engage in for it's survival and long term financial health. CCP has shown us a glimpse of their plans and those plans are exciting, I can't wait to experience the next iterations they have in development. But guess what, those types of things cost money, and if it angers you that CCP hasn't just come out and said this change will help fund future development then you truly are as thick headed as I envision.
your buisness would fail sir this is why ccp put the npe spin on this idea so that it would not be rejected as hard you need to satisfy the wants of your customer or you will have no bottom line
Citadel worm hole tax
|
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1448
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:15:33 -
[791] - Quote
malaka katsika wrote:" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means.
it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:17:16 -
[792] - Quote
Majix Mania wrote:first reaction for me was, eve is going pay to win,
it was said before when plex was introduced, but with plex you could have as much isk by selling it in the market, but then you realize that isk does not help you since you still need the skill's for the ship to be able to fly it.
now thanks to ccp skill trading they are making sure you buy more plex, exchange it into isk, buy the skills and be Op in overnight. I don't relly care how long it will be a day, a week or even months,
since the past 9 months to train my skill and be able to fly now the ship i wanted, when i heard about skill trading, i thought it was a joke, sadly it was not.
they only way for me to see this working is when a person can play around with his/her own skill point made through training, and only be able to extract existing points he/she made and ONLY use it on them self, with cool downs like revamping implants points. no selling it in the market.
in the end at least for me, eve is becoming a pay to win, You read it here CCP, having skills and being able to board ships is OP. Clearly you are going the wrong direction and need to nerf your vet players instead since their OP with all that SP.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:20:02 -
[793] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:malaka katsika wrote:" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means. it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong In that case the battle was lost long ago when PLEX and the Bazaar were introduced. That or isk one didn't need to earn and characters one didn't need to wait to train aren't advantages.
And if that last one isn't a problem, that creates some issues for opposing this idea. |
J0rj Lmoz
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:20:34 -
[794] - Quote
Is it going to have any limit to the number of injections/extractions per time ???
Without that an Alliance with "unlimited" resources can start making capital alt pilots trained really quick.
With this CCP is taking away the rewards for time dedication to the game, i can see lot's of bad things to this without a number of injection/extraction limit per time. With that simple limit per time this can be good.
|
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:27:25 -
[795] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Neva Second wrote:
2) CCP is a business, and ALL businesses must put the bottom line before the wants of any segment of the customer base ESPECIALLY a player base as narrow focused and childish as this vocal segment. You say you've played this game for "X" years...get over yourself. Your subscription time does not grant you access to the decision making process the company has to engage in for it's survival and long term financial health. CCP has shown us a glimpse of their plans and those plans are exciting, I can't wait to experience the next iterations they have in development. But guess what, those types of things cost money, and if it angers you that CCP hasn't just come out and said this change will help fund future development then you truly are as thick headed as I envision.
your buisness would fail sir this is why ccp put the npe spin on this idea so that it would not be rejected as hard you need to satisfy the wants of your customer or you will have no bottom line
I have owned, sold and bought several businesses irl, I always kept sight of what my current customers wanted but never took my eye off what my future customers may want. Two immutable truths in business; 1) Sale covers all sins 2) If you aren't growing your dying. |
Steijn
Quay Industries
1040
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:27:32 -
[796] - Quote
its very convenient that this gets deployed on 9th Feb as my subs start expiring from the 18th. |
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:31:39 -
[797] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:malaka katsika wrote:" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means. it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong
And yet, you still overlook the Character Bazaar....you know....that place you have been able to buy SP's in the form of characters for years now. |
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:32:27 -
[798] - Quote
Steijn wrote:its very convenient that this gets deployed on 9th Feb as my subs start expiring from the 18th.
Can I have your stuff? |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
378
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:35:49 -
[799] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:malaka katsika wrote:" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means. it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong
"advantage" != "win"
A Svipul has advantages over a Nereus in PvP - but the Nereus can still win.
If I'm in a fleet and we see a lone Sleipnir, we don't care if the pilot has 50 million or 500 million SP - we're going after it. And will blow it up either way.
A Vexor pilot with drone specialization skills trained to V potentially has an advantage over me - but that by no means assures them a win in any engagement.
This isn't "pay to win." This is "pay to be able to use wider range of in-game mechanics to do things" which is entirely different from winning.
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
559
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:37:14 -
[800] - Quote
Neva Second wrote: "responses that are so obviously ignorant to the ... state of CCP's business"
1.) Perhaps you could direct us all to the insider economic information you possess which shows that CCP is failing and must implement changes that belie one of this game's most fundamental principles for its very survival. In one breath you chastise the game's veterans for being passionate and in the next you state the sky really "is" falling. Make up your mind.
Neva Second wrote: Please direct yourself to the Character Bazaar...
2.) If, as you claim, you had indeed read the entirety of this thread, you would already know that comparisons between the Bazaar and SP-trading are either misguided or deliberately obtuse. The consequences for using the Bazaar are built into the system. You cannot order a custom toon with the skills & experience you would prefer but instead are forced to adopt someone else's used character - and the name, employment history & contract history that comes along with it. Those consequences are significant. With SP-trading there are zero consequences. None. It is 100% current character PTW and nothing like it has ever been proposed before. I mean, wth, if I care about this game and I'm not supposed to get excited about this - when, exactly, is it going to be time? This isn't boiling the frog - this is throwing the frog in the microwave.
Neva Second wrote: CCP is a business, and ALL businesses must put the bottom line before the wants of any segment of the customer base... subscription time does not grant you access to the decision making process the company has to engage in for it's survival...
3.) There you go... CCP is on the verge of death again. Gotta respect that bottom line. I guess using this logic, we should accept all proposed changes to the game without comment - as they all must be mandatory and all necessary for CCP's very survival. Hell, disband the CSM if CCP's decisions are all about survival and player opinions are irrelevant.
Neva Second wrote: Easing the burden of entry in this way will probably appeal to many casual gamers looking for a new experience...
4.) In what way will changing EVE to appease "casual gamers" benefit the current playerbase? By definition, they WONT BE HERE all that much.
Neva Second wrote: Making Eve less difficult ... does not make the game less difficult
Look, that folks (on either side of any given issue) are passionate about the game is a good thing. A healthy debate is beneficial to quality control - not the other way around. So, calling subscribers ignorant, na+»ve, thick headed, jackoff, scrubtards is maybe just a little counterproductive & makes one dismissive of everything you wrote.
On one hand, I'm excited as hell about citadels and looking forward to the direction the game is heading. But at the same time, I'm getting slapped in the face and told I'm stupid. Guess what? I don't like that ****. So I'm going to let CCP know that I don't like that **** because that's the definition of feedback.
YK
|
|
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:38:32 -
[801] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:malaka katsika wrote:" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means. it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong "advantage" != "win" A Svipul has advantages over a Nereus in PvP - but the Nereus can still win. If I'm in a fleet and we see a lone Sleipnir, we don't care if the pilot has 50 million or 500 million SP - we're going after it. And will blow it up either way. A Vexor pilot with drone specialization skills trained to V potentially has an advantage over me - but that by no means assures them a win in any engagement. This isn't "pay to win." This is "pay to be able to use wider range of in-game mechanics to do things" which is entirely different from winning.
100% right on, I don't remember the last pew I got into that I said "I wonder how many SP that guy has?". All the faux outrage is so par for the course with the social justice warriors that found themselves on these forums. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3125
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:39:57 -
[802] - Quote
Neva Second wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:malaka katsika wrote:" pay to win" - you keep using that phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means. it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong And yet, you still overlook the Character Bazaar....you know....that place you have been able to buy SP's in the form of characters for years now.
Some of said at the time when the Character Bazaar and PLEX were mooted that they were the thin end of the wedge and so it has come to pass.
You mentioned that you are a business man in real life, so I am sure that you are also aware that a step like cash for skill points may well turn out to be a giant step in the wrong direction in terms of long term future income for CCP.
'Think twice, act once' and all that class of thing.
My gut feeling is that CCP know this is not a good move for Eve Online, but that they are doing it to generate cash to fund Valkrie and other future projects.
This is not a signature.
|
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:45:53 -
[803] - Quote
Quote:Look, that folks (on either side of any given issue) are passionate about the game is a good thing. A healthy debate is beneficial to quality control - not the other way around. So, calling subscribers ignorant, na+»ve, thick headed, jackoff, scrubtards is maybe just a little counterproductive & makes one dismissive of everything you wrote.
On one hand, I'm excited as hell about citadels and looking forward to the direction the game is heading. But at the same time, I'm getting slapped in the face and told I'm stupid. Guess what? I don't like that ****. So I'm going to let CCP know that I don't like that **** because that's the definition of feedback.
YK
[/quote]
I'm sorry, is it the words I use that offend or the fact that I am showing the absurdity of the flat earther comments being thrown down by the detractors? Critical thinking is typically just that...critical. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3125
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:55:18 -
[804] - Quote
Neva Second wrote:Quote:Look, that folks (on either side of any given issue) are passionate about the game is a good thing. A healthy debate is beneficial to quality control - not the other way around. So, calling subscribers ignorant, na+»ve, thick headed, jackoff, scrubtards is maybe just a little counterproductive & makes one dismissive of everything you wrote.
On one hand, I'm excited as hell about citadels and looking forward to the direction the game is heading. But at the same time, I'm getting slapped in the face and told I'm stupid. Guess what? I don't like that ****. So I'm going to let CCP know that I don't like that **** because that's the definition of feedback.
YK
I'm sorry, is it the words I use that offend or the fact that I am showing the absurdity of the flat earther comments being thrown down by the detractors? Critical thinking is typically just that...critical.[/quote]
Donald J Trump...is that you?
This is not a signature.
|
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:55:54 -
[805] - Quote
Quote:Some of said at the time when the Character Bazaar and PLEX were mooted that they were the thin end of the wedge and so it has come to pass.
You mentioned that you are a business man in real life, so I am sure that you are also aware that a step like cash for skill points may well turn out to be a giant step in the wrong direction in terms of long term future income for CCP.
'Think twice, act once' and all that class of thing.
My gut feeling is that CCP know this is not a good move for Eve Online, but that they are doing it to generate cash to fund Valkrie and other future projects. [/quote]
They are precisely doing this to fund projects, and there is nothing wrong with that, those projects will generate revenue from future and current subscribers that will get fed into future products/projects. In regards to cash=SP's, that has existed for years without a significant impact on the player base. Having SP's or officer fit ship does not make a player good. Nothing will ever replace keyboard time in this game. |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 21:58:39 -
[806] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Neva Second wrote: "responses that are so obviously ignorant to the ... state of CCP's business" 2.) If, as you claim, you had indeed read the entirety of this thread, you would already know that comparisons between the Bazaar and SP-trading are either misguided or deliberately obtuse. The consequences for using the Bazaar are built into the system. You cannot order a custom toon with the skills & experience you would prefer but instead are forced to adopt someone else's used character - and the name, employment history & contract history that comes along with it. Those consequences are significant. With SP-trading there are zero consequences. None. It is 100% current character PTW and nothing like it has ever been proposed before. I mean, wth, if I care about this game and I'm not supposed to get excited about this - when, exactly, is it going to be time? This isn't boiling the frog - this is throwing the frog in the microwave.
Why do you feel these "consequences" are necessary when it comes to purchasing a character from the Bazaar? |
Josef Djugashvilis
3126
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:05:33 -
[807] - Quote
In terms of 'helping' new players, I am still confused how a new player who spends real life cash to buy skill points and to buy relatively expensive 'better ships' which they will than lose to more experienced pvp pilots is going to help new player retention and not, "screw this, all that real life money just to get ganked"
This is not a signature.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
61
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:09:44 -
[808] - Quote
J0rj Lmoz wrote:Is it going to have any limit to the number of injections/extractions per time ???
Without that an Alliance with "unlimited" resources can start making capital alt pilots trained really quick.
With this CCP is taking away the rewards for time dedication to the game, i can see lot's of bad things to this without a number of injection/extraction limit per time. With that simple limit per time this can be good.
And you don't even have to earn the ISK to do it - just rack it up on a credit card
- but you know - It's not REALLY pay to win - cause you know - the skill points were earned by characters at the normal progression rate - well except multiple training - But you know - MCT that's not P2W cause it's all on the same account - cause you know - it's not like you will be able to transfer or sell them - But you know - you could have already bought each alliance member a Capital pilot at the Bazaar - cause you know - the Bazaar is pay to win as well - but you know - adding more pay to win things won't hurt . - cause you know - when they introduced PLEX you could then buy anything with cash - well everything except skill points - cause you know - buying PLEX was pay to win - well apart from skill points t - so - you know - lets let them also buy SP - cause - you know - they couldn't buy skill points before - and you know - skill points were the only thing they couldn't buy - and - now they can
- but its OK - cause before you get to be called pay to win you would have to be able to buy everything in the game using a credit card. |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:13:13 -
[809] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:In terms of 'helping' new players, I am still confused how a new player who spends real life cash to buy skill points and to buy relatively expensive 'better ships' which they will then lose to more experienced pvp pilots is going to help new player retention and not, "screw this, all that real life money just to get ganked"
Did you read the original blog? If you did, you would see what they found to be a problem with regards to the character bazaar and newer players using it to upgrade their characters. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:17:59 -
[810] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:J0rj Lmoz wrote:Is it going to have any limit to the number of injections/extractions per time ???
Without that an Alliance with "unlimited" resources can start making capital alt pilots trained really quick.
With this CCP is taking away the rewards for time dedication to the game, i can see lot's of bad things to this without a number of injection/extraction limit per time. With that simple limit per time this can be good.
And you don't even have to earn the ISK to do it - just rack it up on a credit card - but you know - It's not REALLY pay to win - cause you know - the skill points were earned by characters at the normal progression rate - well except multiple training - But you know - MCT that's not P2W cause it's all on the same account - cause you know - it's not like you will be able to transfer or sell them - But you know - you could have already bought each alliance member a Capital pilot at the Bazaar - cause you know - the Bazaar is pay to win as well - but you know - adding more pay to win things won't hurt . - cause you know - when they introduced PLEX you could then buy anything with cash - well everything except skill points - cause you know - buying PLEX was pay to win - well apart from skill points t - so - you know - lets let them also buy SP - cause - you know - they couldn't buy skill points before - and you know - skill points were the only thing they couldn't buy - and - now they can - but its OK - cause before you get to be called pay to win you would have to be able to buy everything in the game using a credit card. All that really says nothing regarding why SP should be something you can't buy, whether purely with in game effort or with a CC through PLEX. Ironically though, it's the existence of PLEX, not SP trading itself, that makes a CC an option. Yet no one sees an issue with that.
But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal? |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
61
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:26:20 -
[811] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:J0rj Lmoz wrote:Is it going to have any limit to the number of injections/extractions per time ???
Without that an Alliance with "unlimited" resources can start making capital alt pilots trained really quick.
With this CCP is taking away the rewards for time dedication to the game, i can see lot's of bad things to this without a number of injection/extraction limit per time. With that simple limit per time this can be good.
And you don't even have to earn the ISK to do it - just rack it up on a credit card - but you know - It's not REALLY pay to win - cause you know - the skill points were earned by characters at the normal progression rate - well except multiple training - But you know - MCT that's not P2W cause it's all on the same account - cause you know - it's not like you will be able to transfer or sell them - But you know - you could have already bought each alliance member a Capital pilot at the Bazaar - cause you know - the Bazaar is pay to win as well - but you know - adding more pay to win things won't hurt . - cause you know - when they introduced PLEX you could then buy anything with cash - well everything except skill points - cause you know - buying PLEX was pay to win - well apart from skill points t - so - you know - lets let them also buy SP - cause - you know - they couldn't buy skill points before - and you know - skill points were the only thing they couldn't buy - and - now they can - but its OK - cause before you get to be called pay to win you would have to be able to buy everything in the game using a credit card. All that really says nothing regarding why SP should be something you can't buy, whether purely with in game effort or with a CC through PLEX. Ironically though, it's the existence of PLEX, not SP trading itself, that makes a CC an option. Yet no one sees an issue with that. But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal?
From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.
You should try WOW - I know you would like WOW - Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:34:31 -
[812] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.
You should try WOW - Already did. I know you would like WOW - You couldn't be more wrong. But hey, we can't go without the 0 effort WoW related replies. Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game Considering those have no relation to this we'll just file it under "more BS to distract from the fact that you don't have an answer" Actually, The hundreds of replies didn't have a strait answer despite being directly asked by me several times. Plenty of outrage and indignation, but no justification of how SP is both not important enough to consider worth granting because everyone can get by without it, yet so important that it can't be granted or traded. Presumably there should be some actual consequence right? What is it? People having more SP itself doesn't mean anything without leading to some other consequence.
We've yet to get that far. |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:38:52 -
[813] - Quote
I doubt CCP is listening to its loyal customers the past years, so 2 ways to go i think.
- They go on with the pay to win game, which is a step down on the MMO ladder, filling their pockets and big profit for a short time and eventually dying out slowly.
- Or listening to their customers, removing the pay to win stuff, keeping the loyal and interested players, preserving the name as a quality game instead of a pay to win one ( Garbage MMO's ), your income will be less but steady. ( compensate with 1 awesome expansion instead of 2 each year, to keep the quality at its max ).
In those almost 12 years i never seen so many olders players leaving like in the past 2-3 years, Aurum, Plex and now SP buying, it all made them leave, they liked the game alot as it was before, stay true to its foundations, pls do not turn it into some mediocre MMO, its heading that way
Listen to your loyal clients and you will prevail, if not well... A GG it was and RIP EvE in less then a year or 2.
Not sure if i will hold it till 2017 if it stays that way
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
379
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:43:57 -
[814] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ironically though, it's the existence of PLEX, not SP trading itself, that makes a CC an option. Yet no one sees an issue with that.
I think that's a really good point. Being able to buy SP with ISK isn't "pay to win" (or "pay to have an advantage" or "pay to anything.") Being able to buy a 100m SP toon with ISK isn't p2w. Being able to buy a high-grade slave set isn't p2w.
The only thing that is perhaps p2w is being able to buy PLEX with real-world money. Which has been a feature of EVE for a good while, and has, IMO, generally been a very positive aspect of the game. Yes, it means a week-old player can purchase a Titan pilot and a Titan to go with it for several thousand dollarydoos, or an officer fit Raven Navy - but so what? They don't win the game that way. It doesn't invalidate the accomplishments of those of us who have built up our wallets through honorable ratting or scamming or embezzling alliance assets. Nor does a week-old player purchasing 30 million SP invalidate the SP of those of us who have trained at 2700 SP/hr.
Quote:But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal?
It's correct that SP isn't winning - rather, SP is the barrier to widening the range of in-game activities available. I can fly a Domi, but not an Apoc or Raven. I would like to - not because it gives me an advantage towards winning EVE, but because it gives me an expanded engagement envelope within which I can play. |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:47:19 -
[815] - Quote
:O i forgot something !
Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore
Nuff said. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:51:04 -
[816] - Quote
I'm starting to be less upset about this.
The character Bazaar already allows a new player to get the SP of an old player. Although they'll end up paying something like a thousand dollars of real money to get a really old one.
If the skill extractors are sufficiently expensive in Aur, I think things will continue to stay balanced. The only downside is that a character only needs 5 mil sp to start extracting skill points. This could lead to people subbing alts to use as "skill farms".
If you can afford the extractors, and don't mind subbing multiple accounts, you could progress up the skill tree very fast indeed. With three alts, you'd be moving at 4x the normal skill pace essentially. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:51:50 -
[817] - Quote
.. With the added benefit that it doesn't matter how your attributes are mapped. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:52:15 -
[818] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Quote:But really though, if SP isn't winning, as we've been endlessly told over and over by this same community every time an SP related idea is proposed by the players, why is this even remotely a big deal? It's correct that SP isn't winning - rather, SP is the barrier to widening the range of in-game activities available. I can fly a Domi, but not an Apoc or Raven. I would like to - not because it gives me an advantage towards winning EVE, but because it gives me an expanded engagement envelope within which I can play. That basically hints on the issue I have with opposing this. Would the game suffer detriment if, whether through earning the isk yourself or buying the efforts of those who did through PLEX (since for all intents we've effectively accepted that), you could fly an Apoc or Raven tomorrow? If so how?
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
61
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:55:17 -
[819] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.
You should try WOW - Already did. I know you would like WOW - You couldn't be more wrong. But hey, we can't go without the 0 effort WoW related replies. Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game Considering those have no relation to this we'll just file it under "more BS to distract from the fact that you don't have an answer" Actually, The hundreds of replies didn't have a strait answer despite being directly asked by me several times. Plenty of outrage and indignation, but no justification of how SP is both not important enough to consider worth granting because everyone can get by without it, yet so important that it can't be granted or traded. Presumably there should be some actual consequence right? What is it? People having more SP itself doesn't mean anything without leading to some other consequence. We've yet to get that far.
I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.
Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal. They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints - is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:57:17 -
[820] - Quote
MECHcore wrote::O i forgot something ! Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore Nuff said. Sub Paid (via CC no less). Queued skills for the next several months. Logged out right now. Still getting SP.
Hard work indeed.
Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?
|
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
379
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 22:59:42 -
[821] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That basically hints on the issue I have with opposing this. Would the game suffer detriment if, whether through earning the isk yourself or buying the efforts of those who did through PLEX (since for all intents we've effectively accepted that), you could fly an Apoc or Raven tomorrow? If so how?
No, I do not believe that being able to suddenly fly an Apoc next month by trading ISK, whether from selling a PLEX or from ratting, for SP would in any way cause the game to suffer. I do not believe our neighbors whom we PvP against (BOS, TISHU, CYN0, -TC-) being able to do similar would in any way cause the game to suffer.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:01:18 -
[822] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.
Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal. They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints - is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point Maybe you missed another point stated several times. We never worked for SP. Initially we remembered to log in when skills ended for SP. That was reduced to logging in within 24 hours of a skill ending for SP. Now it's logging in as infrequently as one can get away with for SP.
I've actually played and "worked" towards several goals but SP was never one of them, mainly because no mechanic to support that has ever existed. |
Soltys
54
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:09:55 -
[823] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I can generate a couple billion in profit per week with a few minutes of effort a day with manufacturing on a single character.
PI income, particularly for pure factory planets, is ******* *ludicrous* right now thanks to the massive speculative pre-build of citadel components currently taking place.
You are possibly just bad at the game.
I generate 2-3b/day, which you can verify on eve-mogul. So don't worry about my income.
A real "newbro" that injects some SP won't generate any billions anytime soon in industry, because he doesn't know the game, doesn't know people, doesn't know mechanics and doesn't have an army of alt accounts.
Injecting SP doesn't equate to pressing "craft" button and swimming in incoming isk. Not mentioning everything else that goes along with it, as stupid BPCs and materials don't materialize at your poses/stations/outposts out of thin air (or space). There goes logistics, perhaps other people working alongside you, maybe contracts, maybe slaving alts (even if it's a stupid scout or webber for a freighter).
PI generally require at least few alts, some logistics as well as knowing mechanics of this years old simple but rigid and tiring interface. Not mentioning knowing wtf is citadel, P4 product and so on.
And these're just barebone essentials in a nutshell. A genuinly new player can inject 100m SP and it will still be completely useless as his initial knowledge is 0.
But it will enable that player to slowly dig into the subject(s) now instead of year(s) later.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:12:21 -
[824] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:MECHcore wrote::O i forgot something ! Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore Nuff said. Sub Paid (via CC no less). Queued skills for the next several months. Logged out right now. Still getting SP. Hard work indeed. Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right?
So you say =
Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )
Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ?
Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )
Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s
Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.
Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ??
EvEboard MECHcore
I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then, back your statement up pls.
Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:18:00 -
[825] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:MECHcore wrote::O i forgot something ! Quote: Achieving something in this game is not about hard work, skill and experience anymore, but by credit card. - MECHcore Nuff said. Sub Paid (via CC no less). Queued skills for the next several months. Logged out right now. Still getting SP. Hard work indeed. Also, that SP will bridge that experience gap right? That's how SP works right? So you say = Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started ) Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ? Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? ) Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production. Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ?? EvEboard MECHcoreI play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then, back your statement up pls. Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.
You're not wrong. They point is that somebody spending ISK, however acquired, on Skill Injectors isn't wrong either.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:18:59 -
[826] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:So you say = Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started ) Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ? Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? ) Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production. Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ?? EvEboard MECHcoreI play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then. Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion. In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6929
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:25:58 -
[827] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:MECHcore wrote:So you say = Sub Paid (via CC no less). Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started ) Queued skills for the next several months. You never queued skills ? Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? ) Since 2004 late April: Time Online = 701d 22h 18m Daily average = 3h 55m 59s Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production. Still getting SP. Not sure whats wrong with that ?? EvEboard MECHcoreI play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then. Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion. In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed. But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience. That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to. Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective. Eh you know, this is what we're reduced to. By the end the previous 300+ page thread, we'd seen everything worthwhile repeated over the last 200 if not 290 pages.
But now we get new (ie: the leftover arguments of 300 pages) stuff. Content.
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
704
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:35:14 -
[828] - Quote
Got a question who is ready and how much you are going to charge for 500k of SPs ? Not knowing thr extractor's price yet would like to see how much 1 SP price tag would be. |
MECHcore
Evil Celes Death from Above..
49
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:41:10 -
[829] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.
"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed." Take notice that i agreed on myself
"But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work"
Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those
So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible.
And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game.
I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 23:50:10 -
[830] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.
"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed." Take notice that i agreed on myself "But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work" Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible. And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game. I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul. Between characters I have implants ranging from +3's to +5's in partial or full sets. But those aren't needed to gain SP. They do notably enhance rate of gain though, and do require effort to afford, BUT! so will skill injectors with the exact same options. So your effort for implants, which can be bypassed by PLEX, counts but someone else for skill injectors doesn't?
You've essentially created a double standard there. No one is getting anything for free, so bringing up that you didn't get implants for free puts that at the exact same level as this proposal. |
|
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 00:56:38 -
[831] - Quote
It's time to see the statistics for this thread
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1655
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 00:59:16 -
[832] - Quote
Didn't make the cut; posting to pad stats.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:00:11 -
[833] - Quote
TBH, a simple "AYE" or "NAY" would suffice.
The last thread beat the horse to a pulp. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:00:58 -
[834] - Quote
Nay |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:06:59 -
[835] - Quote
Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:12:36 -
[836] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.
So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1656
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:17:10 -
[837] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time.
"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?"
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:17:10 -
[838] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems a bit late for a vote. The decision has been made per the new blog, and probably has been for some time. So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse? Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.
I've no allusions at this point, nor have I had any in the other thread, that my words alone have any specific effect on the outcome.
SurrenderMonkey wrote:"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?" Probably in some way, I don't think it would have made the stage of the first blog, being as controversial as it was even before the CSM, if someone in CCP wasn't pushing hard for it. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:31:55 -
[839] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.
Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread. This thread is all redundant.
Said my piece, I'm out. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1864
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:34:24 -
[840] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.
Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread. This thread is all redundant. Said my piece, I'm out. Not sure I can agree with that assessment, but ok.
Later.
|
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2911
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 01:52:43 -
[841] - Quote
Character sales were a necessary evil to combat gold sellers. This is not, this is a cash grab and an introduction to buying significant steps up for your character.
Now.... I suppose if they stopped character selling so you always know who owns a particular character and instead replaced the mechanic with this I could live with this.
However that is not what they are doing. And it is a very dangerous step as a result.
|
Memphis Baas
961
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 02:35:17 -
[842] - Quote
CCP, please implement character appearance options for heavy skill extractor / injector users. Something like reddened skin and a grouping of needle marks on the temples or forehead or whatever. Maybe bloodshot eyes too. Or hair styles where a small circular patch of hair is missing (at the extraction/injection site). |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
705
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 02:53:15 -
[843] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:CCP, please implement character appearance options for heavy skill extractor / injector users. Something like reddened skin and a grouping of needle marks on the temples or forehead or whatever. Maybe bloodshot eyes too. Or hair styles where a small circular patch of hair is missing (at the extraction/injection site).
+1 |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1663
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 02:56:51 -
[844] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:CCP, please implement character appearance options for heavy skill extractor / injector users. Something like reddened skin and a grouping of needle marks on the temples or forehead or whatever. Maybe bloodshot eyes too. Or hair styles where a small circular patch of hair is missing (at the extraction/injection site).
Saw the fan-made concept art for this on Reddit, +1.
Make the impure ones readily visible.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Memphis Baas
963
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 02:59:25 -
[845] - Quote
Link? |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1663
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 03:14:40 -
[846] - Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/41nzds/adding_lasting_consequence_to_skill_packet_use/
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 03:23:52 -
[847] - Quote
Sad day for me personally upon hearing this...
My desire to make sure I train skills relentlessly just abruptly stopped and I do not know why.
Please explain my reaction. |
Memphis Baas
964
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 03:32:19 -
[848] - Quote
That looks more like a skin rash, rather than damage / partially-healed skin from "injectors". Which would go directly into the head, rather than the spinal pod connectors. Still, cool art.
What I suggested is completely optional; I don't think anyone would like losing control over their portraits like the reddit thread suggests. I also think that API checks to the skills and wallet will probably be sufficient to detect injector users. |
Nootex Dox
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 04:14:36 -
[849] - Quote
Dismantle New Eden Store or RIOT !!! |
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
219
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 04:46:39 -
[850] - Quote
Hmmm...It's officially Pay-to-Win So is this the beginning of the End of EVE. It was fun while it lasted. |
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3326
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 04:52:28 -
[851] - Quote
Ideas I have seen in this thread and plan on bringing up with CCP include . . .
Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)
Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.
Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense.
SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are.
512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out.
Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices.
I am gonna keep reading what you gloriously angry but thoughtful people put here. Just letting you know the parts and suggestions I like of an idea that I do not like.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
118
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 04:58:21 -
[852] - Quote
The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.
When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.
He who has the richest members, wins in the alliance wars.
It is also P2W because SP is necessary to unlock parts of this game. Without the skills for marauders, you can't fly them. Now in one day you could join and unlock whatever you want with enough cash.
Now any time CCP nerf hammers the FOTM, those with the credit cards ready to fly can switch skills right to the new hotness, while the rest of us are stuck with skills less than desirable and have to start training up the new stuff.
This might not be P2W in the sense that a newb won't be able to buy 100mil sp and solo win fights. But when it comes to being able to field large doctrine fleets, do profitable PVE or unlock parts of the game reserved to seasoned players, it is clearly P2W. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1865
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 05:10:31 -
[853] - Quote
King Aires wrote:The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.
When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.
He who has the richest members, wins in the alliance wars. Sounds more like having a ship class balanced by SP loss rather than actually being balanced was maybe not the best idea.
King Aires wrote:It is also P2W because SP is necessary to unlock parts of this game. Without the skills for marauders, you can't fly them. Now in one day you could join and unlock whatever you want with enough cash.
This might not be P2W in the sense that a newb won't be able to buy 100mil sp and solo win fights. But when it comes to being able to field large doctrine fleets, do profitable PVE or unlock parts of the game reserved to seasoned players, it is clearly P2W. I guess I'm lost here. I think the skill system here is a pretty ideal progression mechanic in itself, but can't for the life of me understand some of the values associated with it. Specifically the idea that anything needs to be locked behind a mandatory wait to prevent someone from "winning" by the loosest use of the word I've ever seen.
The concept that certain players effectively don't deserve to do certain things due to tenure and there should be no way for them to speed the process short of spending 10s of billions is baffling to me. Leaving aside the fact that some simply tolerate even that method.
Basically it seems playing the game is equivalent to "winning" and that being the case younger players aren't allowed to get into the stuff that everyone is now saying is actually worthwhile.
|
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 06:36:22 -
[854] - Quote
Posted this in my Alliance's forums and thought I should post here as well. I read about 15 or so pages into this thread so forgive me if these things have been covered after that.
I for one see this a wholly bad change for the game. It removes consequences from the seller and reduces overall value for the buyer.
1. Removing consequences The choices you made creating your character, skilling them up while you mined, ratted, or pvped are what made them into what they are today. You tried something and did or didn't like it and then made another choice. It took me like 6 years to decide I wanted to be an industrialist character. Those SP I put into spaceship command or drones is sort of useless now, but they are part of my characters history. I know why I did that at the time.
Players trained their skills based on decisions they made at the time. Some planned them out years in advance and some just picked the coolest named ones. Either way they have a consequence that must be payed for their decision. There seems to be a movement going around, in America at least, trying to remove negative history from all our records. To me this feels like the same movement, and you get to make ISK from it!
2. Reducing value Part of the draw, for me at least, was learning new things in this game. Figuring out how mechanics work and how to use them against other players. All of that stuff takes time. I learned how to manually pilot in a Rifter and when I lost one it wasn't that big of a deal. I moved up to a Moa and learned how to snipe, meaning I didn't need to it as strong of a tank for the missions I was on. I also learned I needed tracking to deal with those frigates. I know I lost at least one Moa due to that mistake. I took what I had learned and then moved into a Ferox. I fit it with 200mm rails to deal with the frigates but then found that I didn't have enough damage to deal with the BS belt rats in nullsec. That is when someone told me about tracking computers!
All of this learning was done as my core and support skills trained up. I was able to afford to replace my losses with the isk I had earned. A new player starting out with isk from Plex and SP from injectors isn't going to know all of the nuances of how to properly fly their ships. They won't have as strong of a connection to their ship because they didn't earn it. At best they will see them all as 100% expendable cause they can just buy a new one. At worst they will think, I just bought this ship with real money and it got blown up in 10 seconds, why should I keep doing this? Overall they are just going to end up with more expensive losses and need to buy more Plex to replace them, and keep paying their subscription. Dropping that much cash on a game doesn't seem appealing to me when there are many others out there that either only charge a subscription or are free to play but have micro transactions, but not both.
People keep talking about this existing through the character bazaar. This is not the same though. With the bazaar someone still paid for the consequences of the decisions that made that character who they are. You have to keep the name, have to live with them being an AWOXer, have to live with their faction warfare standings, and so on. The bazaar was not designed to sell SP, it was designed to limit black market character sales.
There seems to be a trend happening to this game that I find very unsettling. The devs seem to be trying to limit peoples risk or increase their isk payout. This in turn has lead to small plex farming in rookie ships, roaming in frigates and destroyers instead of larger more expensive ships, safer and more lucrative ratting, huge isk faucets in highsec, and groups like CODE and Marmites popping up to generate content because it isn't really happening elsewhere. The new asset safety system in the new citadels is another step in that direction. This harsh and unforgiving world we started with is feeling a lot less harsh and more forgiving(if you buy some Plex) each and every patch.
All this was said without addressing any balance issues dealing with older players exploiting this system to increase their power even further. That will happen.
I am going to think about this some more before I decide but right now I think I will be unsubbing my accounts when this patch drops. I am getting tired of seeing this game hulled out into a shell of its former self. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 06:43:04 -
[855] - Quote
Personally I won't know how I feel about this for sure until I see the price. I want to know if it is "pay to win", or "pay A LOT to win".
If it's "Pay A LOT to win", then I don't mind seeing a few rich players subsidizing the game for the rest of us.
If it's just "pay to win" (at a reasonable price) then I'll be annoyed, because it will mean you have to pay or you will fall behind the curve and be unable to compete. But if it's "pay A LOT to win" then there's nothing to worry about because probably the majority of players won't be doing it.
King Aires wrote:The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.
When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.
I'm not overwhelmed by the difference that would make.
Quote: Now any time CCP nerf hammers the FOTM, those with the credit cards ready to fly can switch skills right to the new hotness, while the rest of us are stuck with skills less than desirable and have to start training up the new stuff.
This is quite a bit more serious. They need to quit flipping around the skill benefits so much!
A player who has subbed for 3+ years has already paid the ISK to have good skills. Making their skills no good anymore reverses that.
I'd hate to see a situation where a new player paying their way to skills instantly actually does BETTER than a patient player waiting for them (and also paying, via their subs). |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
502
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 07:09:45 -
[856] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sounds more like having a ship class balanced by SP loss rather than actually being balanced was maybe not the best idea. and introducing this feature before balancing T3 will be a disaster. Wait what balance? We have D3 with dead focus group.
512k SP? Ppl are so naive. It's all about money. Some of you are happy that you'll respec you mining skills. Right...you'll pay for SP loss, because that is what it be, unless you are <5mil SP.
EvE is eating it's tail. Overall PCU will increase, but we are going back to alts on-line with spike on new citadels.
Focus Nordgren. If this don't work you'll be the person resposible for slow death of EvE. We will see in feburaury 2017 I guess.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2062
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 07:19:32 -
[857] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Ideas I have seen in this thread and plan on bringing up with CCP include . . .
Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)
Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.
Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense.
SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are.
512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out.
Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices.
I am gonna keep reading what you gloriously angry but thoughtful people put here. Just letting you know the parts and suggestions I like of an idea that I do not like.
m It is a bit late isn't it? All this ideas and suggestions where around the last time and CCP ignored them. Why do you think they listen now? They probably already implemented the feature. They probably even implemented it before the first blog and it was just some trick to defuse the bomb this would be before the officially commit to the idea and say it is comming. I don't think the players had any voice at all in this.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4515
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 07:53:57 -
[858] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Ideas I have seen in this thread and plan on bringing up with CCP include . . .
Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)
Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.
Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense.
SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are.
512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out.
Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices.
I am gonna keep reading what you gloriously angry but thoughtful people put here. Just letting you know the parts and suggestions I like of an idea that I do not like.
m It is a bit late isn't it? All this ideas and suggestions where around the last time and CCP ignored them. Why do you think they listen now? They probably already implemented the feature. They probably even implemented it before the first blog and it was just some trick to defuse the bomb this would be before the officially commit to the idea and say it is coming. I don't think the players had any voice at all in this.
Probably right. But Mike is also right, if CCP is gonna gift us an herpes with our money, we should be allowed to have a voice on what kind of herpes will be.
Admittedly, I am culturally inclined to fatalism, so I will just weather this storm hoping that it won't affect me via PLEX prices. Because there's little things that can be done now and weren't suggested in the threadnaught, and of the things that could be done, none would really work to remove this feature once CCP has comitted to it.
CCP needs/wants more money from EVE. They've decided that double charging players for skills is the safest/easiest to implement option at the moment. This will change EVE forever, but very likely CCP can't do anything else, or maybe doesn't wants.
As I said, if they can't make EVE a better game, they will sell it in a different way.
And thus it begins.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3136
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 08:36:37 -
[859] - Quote
Clearly, the CCP poster on the relevant blog has not read their own forum...
...We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players...
Is the beer in Iceland very strong?
This is not a signature.
|
Oovarvu
Maas Industries
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 10:31:50 -
[860] - Quote
seems to me that the people who know that SP doesn't equal win will go on 'winning' and the people who think SP equals win will go on getting their asses stomped. you only have to watch Sutonia kicking ass in a month old character to understand this.
whatever this is it's not pay to win.
prediction: extractors 875 aur apiece |
|
Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
387
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 10:47:52 -
[861] - Quote
Quote:This is Passive character income generation Bullshit CCP, why even bother actively maintaining and risking ISK for in game profit ? I understand why the Company is doing this, after the big fights like B-R5RB, many read or heard about it and entered the game. After a short while they saw the gap between veterans and new bro's, and many that grave instant gratification soon left the game.
Brain tissue grafts are a new way to close the gap, so new bro's don't need to play for 6+ months before they get close to being able to participate in even the smallest battles. However it's those first 6 months that shape new bro's into eve players, a coming of age
Since this is a happening now, why can't we also reprocess corpses into very small amounts of un-allocated skill points, since we are talking about brain tissue grafts. It would add great game play value to setup body shops behind that closed door, and factoring risk of acquiring corpses and even losing skill points on the surgery table. source: http://crossingzebras.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Brain.jpg
Regards, a Freelancer
PS: LetGÇÖs look first from the perspective of someone wanting to add skillpoints to their character. All they need to do is get themselves a GÇ£Skill InjectorGÇ¥ item (we simplified the name here for clarity), which they can find on the EVE market for ISK, providing another player has listed it. Once theyGÇÖve bought one, or convinced a loving supporter to give them one, they simple activate the item which immediately adds skillpoints to their unallocated pool and consumes the Skill Injector. Those skillpoints can then be spent however they like (following normal skill progression restrictions of course). ThatGÇÖs it.
Straight out of a Dinsdale Pirannha nightmare, and you know what's sad about nightmares, they sometimes become true Now that they can chop up SP and sell it for $, let's see what else the Company can chop up in game and sell for even more $$$ For those yet unaware you do understand this is CCP first major attempt at NON-vanity cash shop transaction, more to come source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583354#post4583354
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
|
Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
387
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 10:59:41 -
[862] - Quote
Quote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/
Congratulations CCP Games, you found a Bullshit way to skip the extremely interpretative Unfair wording part of that accord. You can now spend real life $ to get an advantage over the investment of skill training time, and because it's available to everybody it's not Unfair. HTFU Poor.
Regards, a Freelancer
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
|
Dosperado
Denial of Service
88
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 11:04:08 -
[863] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I think you'll probably make more if you sell the skillpoints instead ;)
I don't think so because my skills alone cost nearly 29 bil isk. All the new "skillpoint farmers" will extract skillpoints from cheap skills. Why should someone strip his titan skills completely? Assume I strip all my skillpoints I still have 409 skills worth 29 bil isk I could'nt "sell". Makes no sense at all.
Seems so that nobody takes the skills prices into account...
EVE Veteran
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 11:48:23 -
[864] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)
Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.
A filter is not going to satisfy OCD, like, at all. Just let 0 SP skills be extracted into physical skill books, the exact reverse of injecting those skill books. That makes perfect sense and satisfies OCD nicely.
Excluding banned characters: Sure, makes sense - I would expect CCP will do this anyhow.
Mike Azariah wrote:Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense. No, actually it is really nice to not wait for your SP to trickle in. Letting them trickle faster is less painful, but painful nevertheless. I exactly want unallocated SP to assign as I want, that process is strategic fun. The skill queue, even if accelerated by a booster, is just too slow to be anything but tedious.
In fact, I would prefer if regular "gain SP by waiting" was into amassing unallocated SP, which I could then invest instantly into specific skills whenever I decided to commit.
Mike Azariah wrote:SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are. Fine, whatever. If bittervets can make their peace with this by retaining a certification of unsullied "pure waiting SP" on their character, then that's fine with me... I will wallow in the filth of bought SP as much as I can afford.
I think CCP should simply provide an "actual age", which counts from birthday to present, but only the time one was subscribed. SP at the moment is basically a proxy measurement of "how dedicated one has been" to the game. A "sub time" age would be a better measurement of that anyhow, since it would avoid biased counting due to implants, boosters and whatnot.
Mike Azariah wrote:512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out. Problem is that if one wants to keep a "power of two" type decline for high SP players, one will end up reducing it more than now: 512k, 384k, 256k, 128k.
Mike Azariah wrote:Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices. The alternative is much better, and frankly is what I expect to be the case anyhow. This game does not need more waiting games, it has plenty of that. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 11:58:42 -
[865] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices. The alternative is much better, and frankly is what I expect to be the case anyhow. This game does not need more waiting games, it has plenty of that. Or something like fatigue... on injecting the SP that is/ as well.
Like the original fatigue (since this isn't as "necessary" as jumping) where you get like 1 year of injection fatigue and a 30day cooldown on injecting
ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate.
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 12:41:17 -
[866] - Quote
Cap it at 20m Skill Points per year (same as neural remap).
20m SP is around 1 year worth of training, anything more and the system is going to be abused.
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Memphis Baas
973
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 12:55:50 -
[867] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: 1. Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing 2. Banned (or those with a 'record') characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in. 3. Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense. 4. SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. 5. 512k points rather than 500. 6. Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points.
First of all, they first announced this feature 3 months ago, and now it's scheduled for February; this is very fast, for CCP. To me this indicates that it's a simple thing to implement, and also that they're almost done with it and it's already in the QA-check phase. So you're going to start suggesting complications to the code, at a point in time where they've almost released it; I believe they will say that they're publishing what they have, and all suggestions such as these to be considered for the re-iteration / improvement phases.
Also, even though the cost will put this feature completely out of reach for newbies, enticing newbies to join the game is a primary CCP goal. If you even HINT that we're going to use API checks and whatever other tracking tools to discriminate against recruiting or accepting newbies who use this feature into player corps or the community, they will shut you down hard. A lot of the rage in this thread and on reddit is about not accepting "the losers" who use skill injections into whatever player groups, and that rage will be directed at newbies, too, because we can't really tell newbs from alts. So, careful.
Finally, as far as each item:
1. 0 skill points and wallet checks for Aurum transactions are probably how we can detect donors. SP numbers that exceed age and wallet transactions are probably how we can detect injector users. Asking for 0-point skills to be removed contradicts asking for API checks to reveal users.
2. Only active accounts can donate and inject, I thought that was given, since is similar to Character Bazaar rules. Thus banned characters won't be able to use this, during their ban. As far as after the ban expires... the ban itself is punishment enough for whatever they did, and also CCP won't let us detect who's got a ban history by giving them an injector and asking them to use it; bans are a private matter between the individual and CCP.
3. What's wrong with insta-FOTM? It's laughably silly; let everyone jump on the bandwagon and waste their aurum / plexes / w/e. Features such as this are addictive and enticing, getting people to pay lots of Aurum to CCP, only as instant gratification.
4. I think what they'll do is they'll simply add a log entry to the skill training history that's listed in the character sheet. Whether that's visible through the API I don't know; they can probably make it visible relatively easily. However, this will probably generate as many transactions as the wallet, and they don't keep wallet transactions for more than 1 year (or is it 1 month?). So 3 years from now, I don't know if you'll be able to detect who used injectors in 2016.
6. Complications to the code. If it's instant, then you use the extractor, it gets used up, a log entry gets generated for the API, and you're done. If it takes 4 hours, they have to put in a count-down timer, refund your extractor if you cancel, deal with bugs resulting in loss of extractor and skillpoints during the 4 hours, and deal with CS tickets from impatient people. Also, it's likely the training queue has to be paused during skill extraction, and not being able to train for 4 hours, are you kidding me? |
Wendrika Hydreiga
601
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 13:04:08 -
[868] - Quote
If people have issues with injected skills they don't need, there's only thing left to do.
Inject all the skills. ALL OF THEM!
Break free from the tyranny of skill books! Indulge on limitless potential! |
Darkblad
2559
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 13:14:18 -
[869] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:2. Only active accounts can donate and inject, I thought that was given, since is similar to Character Bazaar rules. Thus banned characters won't be able to use this, during their ban. As far as after the ban expires... the ban itself is punishment enough for whatever they did, and also CCP won't let us detect who's got a ban history by giving them an injector and asking them to use it; bans are a private matter between the individual and CCP. 26. Accounts that have been previously banned for macro use are not eligible for character sales. Skipping that would allow anyone that can't use the bazaar for this reason to get rid of the affected Character's account. Record cleaning service by deatching the SP from the character. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:10:17 -
[870] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices. The alternative is much better, and frankly is what I expect to be the case anyhow. This game does not need more waiting games, it has plenty of that. Or something like fatigue... on injecting the SP that is/ as well. Like the original fatigue (since this isn't as "necessary" as jumping) where you get like 1 year of injection fatigue and a 30day cooldown on injecting As an added bonus, this teaches "the newbie" who won't be getting into a carrier on day 1, about watching their timers and fatigue. So when they do get one they will know about timers and fatigue.
I agree with you, that a fatigue would be nice. The problem is that this would decrease the amount of skill packets bought, making it less attractive to buy extractors with Aurum (real money). CCP are obviously okay with the skillpacket system. Why would they put artificial brakes on their own income? Just to please an unknown amount of players, that would be pissed about the very implementation of this system anyway? They know this would not please people. It would not be logical to do, when they have decided on getting more income from skillpackets tbh..
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
|
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
62
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:15:11 -
[871] - Quote
You know a feature completely fails when, after 44 pages of discussion, there are only 12 likes for the opening post. This is borderlining hard with p2w and everyone with a lick of common sense knows this. There is literally no incentive to skill training anymore when you can buy your way right up the ladder. Everyone will try to argue that this doesn't matter compared to true skill, but I can only lol at that if you think it will stop people from stomping your ass out in space. |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:32:00 -
[872] - Quote
Oovarvu wrote:seems to me that the people who know that SP doesn't equal win will go on 'winning' and the people who think SP equals win will go on getting their asses stomped. you only have to watch Sutonia kicking ass in a month old character to understand this.
whatever this is it's not pay to win.
prediction: extractors 875 aur apiece
So you get 4 for a PLEX. My prediction is 2000 Aur apiece. Not an even multiple of what you get for a PLEX on purpose so you always have some AUR left over ... |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:37:12 -
[873] - Quote
Dosperado wrote:Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I think you'll probably make more if you sell the skillpoints instead ;) I don't think so because my skills alone cost nearly 29 bil isk. All the new "skillpoint farmers" will extract skillpoints from cheap skills. Why should someone strip his titan skills completely? Assume I strip all my skillpoints I still have 409 skills worth 29 bil isk I could'nt "sell". Makes no sense at all. Seems so that nobody takes the skills prices into account...
That is interesting, I hadn't thought about the skillbook price. But say you have 105 mil SP and you strip 100 mil of them. You get 200 skill packets with that. Sell those on the market at 1 billion ISK each and the price of the skillbooks is starting to look like noise.
Reading that back I'm wondering if I should buy some toons in the bazaar before all this kicks off ... |
Wendrika Hydreiga
601
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:40:31 -
[874] - Quote
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:You know a feature completely fails when, after 44 pages of discussion, there are only 12 likes for the opening post.
13.
Forgot to vote! Sorry...
It's nothing personal but CCP Phantom doesn't have the same charisma as CCP Falcon or CCP Guard to be honest. He needs a remap.
Plus, forum popularity points are not a valid metric for anything! They practically give them out in the likes for likes thread! Most of the likes I got are roleplaying popularity points imagine that.
|
Cixi
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:48:27 -
[875] - Quote
Skillbooks extraction would be nice but not necessary, only top tier skill books are really expensive |
Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
76
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 14:50:06 -
[876] - Quote
Arya Ikahrus wrote:I thought it was bad when it was first announced and I still think it's bad. This.
|
Yolandar
Estrogen Industrial Enterprises
88
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 15:16:25 -
[877] - Quote
no. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 15:29:05 -
[878] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:So you get 4 for a PLEX. My prediction is 2000 Aur apiece. Not an even multiple of what you get for a PLEX on purpose so you always have some AUR left over ... If CCP wants to seriously annoy the supporters of skill trading, then a price point like that would make perfect sense...
Something like 10-20% "overhead costs" makes sense to me. The 500k SP are worth a quarter of a PLEX, or about 300M ISK at the moment. 10%-20% of that are 30-60M ISK, and that again is about 100-200 AUR.
I would consider 100 AUR nice, 200 AUR acceptable, 500 AUR at the pain threshold.
Anything more than that would be greedily stupid and stupidly greedy. If CCP were to price this at 2000 AUR, I would join the protesters - in spite of having been a strong supporter of this idea right from the start. That's just way out.
If CCP wants to have "bigger AUR chunks" in their shop, then they can offer the extractors in packs only (buy 10 for 1000 AUR). That's OK, since they will be tradable individually.
I should also point to the discussion we had up-thread about the impact on PLEX prices. According to it, I believe a low price for the extractors would mean a net drop in PLEX prices, whereas a higher price for the extractors would men a net rise. Basically it's a balance between more people needing PLEX as intermediary from ISK to AUR to buy extractors., and more people cashing in real money through PLEX for buying injectors. I wish I knew where the balance point is exactly, but I would bet that 2000 AUR would further drive PLEX price inflation. And that really is unhealthy for the game... |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
63
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:03:53 -
[879] - Quote
Oovarvu wrote:seems to me that the people who know that SP doesn't equal win will go on 'winning' and the people who think SP equals win will go on getting their asses stomped. you only have to watch Sutonia kicking ass in a month old character to understand this.
whatever this is it's not pay to win.
prediction: extractors 875 aur apiece
Skill Points don't equal winning - except when T3 fleets clash & one side can afford to immediately re-ship its losses by injecting SP
Even at the lowest level of use the purchase of skill points can make a significant difference in a conflict -
Do you remember the Goon advert about the "one guy" who tackles the scout who gets killed who doesnGÇÖt provide good reconaissance etc etc...
How about the alliance that purchased the skill points That allowed member alts to Pi That allowed the buyback For more materials For the ship builder Who Built more ships
That outnumbered you when you lost the war.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:05:07 -
[880] - Quote
Yep, now we've resorted to parodying goon propaganda about rifters or something, that was parodying a hilarious slippery slope story.
Sigh
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:06:45 -
[881] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Zepheros Naeonis wrote:You know a feature completely fails when, after 44 pages of discussion, there are only 12 likes for the opening post. 13. Forgot to vote! Sorry... It's nothing personal but CCP Phantom doesn't have the same charisma as CCP Falcon or CCP Guard to be honest. He needs a remap. Maybe just injecting Social V or Criminal Connections I-IV
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
124
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:11:06 -
[882] - Quote
P2W with this goes beyond T3C immediate skill replacement on loss
F1 monkeys need no actual player skill. They click where they are told, they do what they are told. If you give them 100mil sp to fly everything in the game, they are just as effective as an eight year vet. Because their individual player skill matters next to nothing as long as they jump when told, lock when told and shoot when told.
Also it is P2W because now your logistics fleet can inject Jump Cal V immediately, they can inject all the jump skills for that matter. Making them better logistics pilots earlier.
Even middle of the road players with enough skill to play the game well, think 30-50mil sp now can use this to P2W. Imagine putting off the shield and armor skills and keeping them at IV so you can focus on other things. Now you can spec out your skills to V. You already have the knowledge of 3 years of pvp, but you have the skills of a beta player.
P2W doesn't mean day 1 first time player gets 100mil SP
P2W is much more likely that 3 year old die hard player gets to 100mil SP and gets the advantage over any other 3 year old player. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2065
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:14:18 -
[883] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:I should also point to the discussion we had up-thread about the impact on PLEX prices. According to it, I believe a low price for the extractors would mean a net drop in PLEX prices, whereas a higher price for the extractors would men a net rise. Basically it's a balance between more people needing PLEX as intermediary from ISK to AUR to buy extractors., and more people cashing in real money through PLEX for buying injectors. I wish I knew where the balance point is exactly, but I would bet that 2000 AUR would further drive PLEX price inflation. And that really is unhealthy for the game... You completely ignore where the SP will be coming from in the long term. There will be a lot of specialized toons who don't need more training and will be PLEXed now because they can sell off the SP and buy another PLEX with the money.
I certainly will do this and I am sure a lot of other people will do this as well. Unsub all the specialized accounts and PLEX them with the ISK I get for the SP that get accumulated over the month. So this will drive PLEX prices up, A LOT since more people will use PLEX. I will create even more accounts and finance them this way if the injector pays the bill for the PLEX + extractor.
Since PLEX and the SP you sell are somewhat coupled there will not be a big problem for people who get their ISK this way. However if you want to actually train and still PLEX your char you will probably have to farm a lot more of that ISK to get one.
So what will this change actually do if new players actually do purchase PLEX to get SP? => Some newbie scrub will pay my subscription. Good job CCP, Didn't you sell this as something which helps new players? Guess that was just some F&I level argumentation we all know by now!
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:15:42 -
[884] - Quote
More tearful defenders of newbies, always good to see that there's a counterbalance against people who are vocal against measures helping people who aren't here yet.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Darkblad
2562
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:17:20 -
[885] - Quote
Slightly untelated but also character based
"Injected" SKINs?
We should be able to extract those as well.
What's the use of an Aeon Khanid Skin for somebody who extracted the skills to fly an Aeon. |
sixteen 64
Perkone Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:22:22 -
[886] - Quote
Accounts about to expire today, and its took me since the blog post to decide what to do
I only played for 2 years, I spent the first year flying frigates, personally I've enjoyed seeing my character progress slowly but surely and love the skill Q and eve.
I'm honestly surprised the sp for cash thing was ever even considered, it feels so un-eve like, there must be tons of way to make cash from the store without this.
Maybe if skins and clothes were cheaper they would have sold a lot more ( i spent zero -ú's on skins in eve, yet I have over -ú300 spent on league of legends skins, to me that says a lot, ie: yours are over priced CCP)
No one likes a greedy guy and that's what you 're looking like
And personally I don't like cheap nasty F2P monetization tactics in my SUB based game
Not to mention what nasty tactic comes next after this has been milked and still not enough for you
Anyways, I'm not re-subbing, and voting with my wallet, not that I expect to make a difference, I just don't want to give you any more money as it suggest I support you and your horrid decisions.
(and no you cant have my stuffs! nor would I biomass on the off chance they change their minds(which is doubtful at this point but one can hope) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:28:05 -
[887] - Quote
And another unsubber.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
224
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:43:47 -
[888] - Quote
Pay 2 Win.
/facepalm
/eyeroll
/le sigh....
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
63
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 16:53:04 -
[889] - Quote
Trade-able skill points are going to be a thing therefore this thread is just hot air and tears - I don't like it - but there's nothing I can do about it and I will not quit over it
My little act of protest will be to not pay: If I'm not paying then I may cease to care about the direction of the game.
I have two accounts both paid via credit card - I think there are many like me who don't mind paying subscriptions because they see it as supporting the game - Last night I added 17 PLEX to my accounts, both will expire in a year.
From now on I earn ISK just for PLEX to add game time.
If I don't dual train, farm SP, curb my ship collecting habits and provided there isn't rampant PLEX inflation - I should be able to let someone else pay for my game time for several years.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2120
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 17:36:49 -
[890] - Quote
Darkblad wrote:Slightly untelated but also character based "Injected" SKINs? We should be able to extract those as well. What's the use of an Aeon Khanid Skin for somebody who extracted the skills to fly an Aeon. Why? It's a welcome money sink.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
|
Cixi
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 17:37:58 -
[891] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Zeddrick Anthar wrote:So you get 4 for a PLEX. My prediction is 2000 Aur apiece. Not an even multiple of what you get for a PLEX on purpose so you always have some AUR left over ... If CCP wants to seriously annoy the supporters of skill trading, then a price point like that would make perfect sense... Something like 10-20% "overhead costs" makes sense to me. The 500k SP are worth a quarter of a PLEX, or about 300M ISK at the moment. 10%-20% of that are 30-60M ISK, and that again is about 100-200 AUR. I would consider 100 AUR nice, 200 AUR acceptable, 500 AUR at the pain threshold. Anything more than that would be greedily stupid and stupidly greedy. If CCP were to price this at 2000 AUR, I would join the protesters - in spite of having been a strong supporter of this idea right from the start. That's just way out. If CCP wants to have "bigger AUR chunks" in their shop, then they can offer the extractors in packs only (buy 10 for 1000 AUR). That's OK, since they will be tradable individually. I should also point to the discussion we had up-thread about the impact on PLEX prices. According to it, I believe a low price for the extractors would mean a net drop in PLEX prices, whereas a higher price for the extractors would men a net rise. Basically it's a balance between more people needing PLEX as intermediary from ISK to AUR to buy extractors., and more people cashing in real money through PLEX for buying injectors. I wish I knew where the balance point is exactly, but I would bet that 2000 AUR would further drive PLEX price inflation. And that really is unhealthy for the game...
100Aur is never going to happen, it's a lot more probable that any extractor will be 0.5-0.75% of a plex |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 17:38:47 -
[892] - Quote
So is there a way to make it so that you can re-apply your own skill points without penalty? maybe make the extractor dual purpose, extract for self or extract for market. Then it just moves the sp to your sp pool instead of the injector. |
Darkblad
2562
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 17:41:36 -
[893] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Pay 2 Win.
/facepalm It may not actually be P2W, as repeatedly explained in detail all over the place. But sometimes the taste of something may be different to what it's actually made of. And what are extractors/injectors surely not? Vanity items.
Also, for some, this upcoming change may just be a welcome opportunity excuse to to turn the back on this game. The probably won't be missed but they also won't miss anything, I guess. |
Denn
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 17:42:55 -
[894] - Quote
I spent years training up the skill points I have. I put in the time of planning and training those skills. It gave me a sense of accomplishment. It set EVE apart from the other online games. Now with the new EVE skill points buy-o-matic you can purchase your way to the top. CCP will make some money....but they lost their soul. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 17:49:49 -
[895] - Quote
Denn wrote:I spent years training up the skill points I have. I put in the time of planning and training those skills. It gave me a sense of accomplishment. It set EVE apart from the other online games. Now with the new EVE skill points buy-o-matic you can purchase your way to the top. CCP will make some money....but they lost their soul.
That's OK, they were not using it :p |
Almeisa Reimhilde
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 18:13:20 -
[896] - Quote
I'm hoping that anything related to the changes in character attributes/skill shall have repercussions, and not an easy use. If the amount of skill points injected to a certain character can be limited annually to about 12M only, with a limitation of 1M/month, then it may somehow be used in moderation.
Or perhaps, a character can have an injection of beyond 1M skill points in a month but with a percentage of success, maybe from 500k sp, the character was only able to learn 50k to 100k sp. On a harsher penalty, over-injecting may hit a negative effect instead, decreasing the last sp injected due to overdose
just a thought anyway
|
Jester Chanlin
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 18:26:58 -
[897] - Quote
Whats wrong with giving noobs a pool of 1-5mil SP from the start of the game and also give all players in eve the same amount. Or even having the tutorials give them parts of the 'free noob SP' as they complete tasks.
I'll be for sure using this service when it goes live as I'm a 45mil SP player and could afford such. I don't see the option to buy SP being attractive or beneficial to a new player. |
Regan Rotineque
The Scope Gallente Federation
376
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 18:31:06 -
[898] - Quote
This is more of a question
If you remove some skills that are prerequisites for other skills what is going to happen? Will ships become unflyable? How is CCP going to balance that with other changes that they have made in the past where "if you could fly it in the past you can fly it in the future" even though you no longer had all the skills required?
Will it prevent you from removing skills that are prerequisites?
As for this idea in general - I am not entirely opposed to it, however I do see that those with unlimited resources both in game and out of game are going to be able to use this. I particularly see that this will be abused by those larger null sec entities who have access to unlimited in game resources and can divert those resources into purchasing these things off the market.
I suspect that there are those who are already trying to figure out how to best abuse this and CCP has not thought through how many ways this will be abused.
~R~
|
Cixi
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 19:09:19 -
[899] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote:This is more of a question
If you remove some skills that are prerequisites for other skills what is going to happen? Will ships become unflyable? How is CCP going to balance that with other changes that they have made in the past where "if you could fly it in the past you can fly it in the future" even though you no longer had all the skills required?
Will it prevent you from removing skills that are prerequisites?
As for this idea in general - I am not entirely opposed to it, however I do see that those with unlimited resources both in game and out of game are going to be able to use this. I particularly see that this will be abused by those larger null sec entities who have access to unlimited in game resources and can divert those resources into purchasing these things off the market.
I suspect that there are those who are already trying to figure out how to best abuse this and CCP has not thought through how many ways this will be abused.
~R~
It will not be possible to remove prerequisites, this was answered somewhere on this thread |
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 19:11:52 -
[900] - Quote
I cancel. I don't care about Eve online now. This and that. It feels too weird if we can't chase SP from some cadaver of any capsuler we pin down (like a drifter) inspace in this mechanic. |
|
Paul Miromme
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 19:26:10 -
[901] - Quote
After some thought about this upcoming 'Feature' I've come to the conclusion that it is terrible.... I got into this game a few years back, infact the odd occasional trial at first way back when; untill I had my own internet connection
Part of the allure of Eve was the Skill systems implementation , you just had to wait & you had time to get to grips with what you could fly. Now with this system I feel that CCP are cheepening the experience in a major way. Okay it seems allright to some, but I'd bet they have -ú-ú to burn in order to get to areas of the game that would have taken ages to reach. This is the problem it kind of makes the game experience cheep in that you don't live Eve anymore but buy it. (Have the UK Tory party been chatting to CCP High Command?) It will just expand the difference between low SP pilots & vetrans, thus creating even more of a divide in new Eden. I feel the sense of acheivability would be weakend for the new scrubs cutting their teeth, it may even fuel debt, theiving & family strife as little johnny needs to have a better range of ships to fly.
Sorry I can't get behind this Feature. |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
843
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 19:47:59 -
[902] - Quote
Paul Miromme wrote:After some thought about this upcoming 'Feature' I've come to the conclusion that it is terrible.... I got into this game a few years back, infact the odd occasional trial at first way back when; untill I had my own internet connection Part of the allure of Eve was the Skill systems implementation , you just had to wait & you had time to get to grips with what you could fly. Now with this system I feel that CCP are cheepening the experience in a major way. Okay it seems allright to some, but I'd bet they have -ú-ú to burn in order to get to areas of the game that would have taken ages to reach. This is the problem it kind of makes the game experience cheep in that you don't live Eve anymore but buy it. (Have the UK Tory party been chatting to CCP High Command?) It will just expand the difference between low SP pilots & vetrans, thus creating even more of a divide in new Eden. I feel the sense of acheivability would be weakend for the new scrubs cutting their teeth, it may even fuel debt, theiving & family strife as little johnny needs to have a better range of ships to fly. Sorry I can't get behind this Feature.
sorry ...but I cant see the correlation between the UK Tory party and herr Hilmar ?
|
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
397
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:09:17 -
[903] - Quote
Far better than buying someone else's crappy toon.
Let the tear babies cry.
Very good plan.
|
Norn Thilnir
Naragnir
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:12:23 -
[904] - Quote
SP for isk in EVE is just absurd. Well, at least it was in the EVE I played for a decade.
Sure, in the near future this may bring CCP more microtransaction isk, but I suspect people will just stop caring and much of the sense of "accomplishment" will be gone from the game.
Selling this as a great tool for new players is just absurd. If you want a healthy player base, then get back on track making EVE the best possible space game ever and invest some proper resources in game balancing instead of trying to milk the existing player base in whichever way possible.
Whatever happened to the harsh consequences for actions/decisions in EVE?
|
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
397
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:16:04 -
[905] - Quote
Norn Thilnir wrote:SP for isk in EVE is just absurd. Well, at least it was in the EVE I played for a decade.
Sure, in the near future this may bring CCP more microtransaction isk, but I suspect people will just stop caring and much of the sense of "accomplishment" will be gone from the game.
R U Scared?
You might not have as many noobs to spank on. Would really suck if the playing field was level wouldn't it.
We know what sucks, or who. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
397
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:17:16 -
[906] - Quote
Faelune wrote:I cancel. I don't care about Eve online now. This and that. It feels too weird if we can't chase SP from some cadaver of any capsuler we pin down (like a drifter) inspace in this mechanic.
Extract your sp and send it over before you leave. |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:17:49 -
[907] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:Norn Thilnir wrote:SP for isk in EVE is just absurd. Well, at least it was in the EVE I played for a decade.
Sure, in the near future this may bring CCP more microtransaction isk, but I suspect people will just stop caring and much of the sense of "accomplishment" will be gone from the game. R U Scared? You might not have as many noobs to spank on. Would really suck if the playing field was level wouldn't it. We know what sucks, or who.
R U a Troll?
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Memphis Baas
976
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:29:10 -
[908] - Quote
Norn Thilnir wrote:Whatever happened to the harsh consequences for actions/decisions in EVE?
WE happened.
Like it or not, it's been 20 years since the days of "harsh" Ultima Online and Everquest, and every single game out there has moved away from "harsh", has evolved to "there is still grind to keep the masses paying, but it must be disguised under at least SOME fun, and the masses must be appeased with convenience features and fluff, or they'll stop paying."
Every single MMO has unlimited re-specs, microtransactions for fluff, and conveniences like name change, server transfer, and appearance customizations. We screamed for months before allowing CCP to introduce appearance customizations, and we're screaming every time they try to introduce what's standard everywhere else.
If you all absolutely want the game to STAY THE SAME, because it's the game you like or whatever, then fine, it's actually a very simple solution: no more patches, no more changes, everything stays exactly as it is now; go play. CCP can put the servers on life support and go develop something else. Enjoy.
Otherwise, if you want this game to still be supported by CCP, then accept that it's their game and they'll do whatever they want to do with it; play, or don't play. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3355
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:30:15 -
[909] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:Norn Thilnir wrote:SP for isk in EVE is just absurd. Well, at least it was in the EVE I played for a decade.
Sure, in the near future this may bring CCP more microtransaction isk, but I suspect people will just stop caring and much of the sense of "accomplishment" will be gone from the game. Would really suck if the playing field was level wouldn't it. We know what sucks, or who. Except its not leveling the playing field, it is catering to those who have the most $$ to spend. A level playing field would be the complete removal of all skills, that way everyone is as effective as everyone else and the only thing that maters is player experience and fitting knowledge.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2237
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 20:48:15 -
[910] - Quote
Norn Thilnir wrote:SP for isk in EVE is just absurd. Well, at least it was in the EVE I played for a decade.
Sure, in the near future this may bring CCP more microtransaction isk, but I suspect people will just stop caring and much of the sense of "accomplishment" will be gone from the game.
We already have SP for ISK. I buy a PLEX with ISK. I activate my account. I can now train SP for a month. In that thirty days I get 1.944m SP. I buy another PLEX. I activate dual account training and set up my queue. A month later I have 1.944m more SP on that character.
All this change does is reduce the time barrier between paying the money and getting the SP. How much is that worth? Nothing to me. Probably quite a bit to a competitive young player who wants to succeed in Eve.
As a player who has almost nine years in game, I am not at all concerned with a new player trying to catch up with me. He can match my ISK (by grinding for more hours or spending real cash to buy PLEX to sell for ISK), he can match my SP (by buying a character on the bazaar or injecting a bunch of SP packs), but he cannot buy nine years of experience in this deep and complex game. And if he does match me in experience by immersing himself in Eve, playing a ton, watching training videos, and learning from those around him: that is a good thing. Not a bad one.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
|
Memphis Baas
976
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 21:09:28 -
[911] - Quote
Even if he matches you, that just means he becomes a source of good fights. Or, recruit the guy and go kill goons or something.
Imagine Brave Newbies, but instead it's Skilled Newbies. Maybe they farm PL, this time around. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Mercenary Coalition
296
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 21:11:50 -
[912] - Quote
I will probably use this to erase skill 'mistakes' from 12 years ago - happy days
War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
|
Collie Buddz
Out of Focus Odin's Call
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 21:27:16 -
[913] - Quote
Not going to repeat the reasons that have already been mentioned over and over as to why I don't like this. It's a horrible change and it's actually depressing, because I know this is only the beginning of more "improvements." |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
804
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 21:30:51 -
[914] - Quote
Gabriel Karade wrote:I will probably use this to erase skill 'mistakes' from 12 years ago - happy days Sorry, you won't be able to "erase" those mistakes but you will be able to have 0 point skills in your tree by selling or moving the SP.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1867
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 21:36:08 -
[915] - Quote
Paul Miromme wrote:you just had to wait & you had time to get to grips with what you could fly. Now with this system I feel that CCP are cheepening the experience in a major way. You still have that time, because no one can take it from you. I intended this character for missions and aimed specifically for battleships 5 years ago. Now, thanks to burners I'm backtracking for frigate and cruiser skills and experience. I had a nice chunk of relevant SP there already due in part to old prerequisites, but that didn't mean a thing in the face of not having as much experience using them. Passing by the cruiser level is SP NEVER robbed me of the chance to learn them because at no point did having SP in other, later classes mean I couldn't go back whenever I wanted or needed to do so.
Paul Miromme wrote:Okay it seems allright to some, but I'd bet they have -ú-ú to burn in order to get to areas of the game that would have taken ages to reach.
This is the problem it kind of makes the game experience cheep in that you don't live Eve anymore but buy it. Problematically that view ignores that the exchange for SP is in game, and as such the only means to get that is isk. That being the case it's pretty dishonest to call it a cash shop item from the SP buyers perspective in the first place. One can exchange PLEX for isk, but the source of the isk is "living" Eve as you put it.
Paul Miromme wrote:It will just expand the difference between low SP pilots & vetrans, thus creating even more of a divide in new Eden. I feel the sense of acheivability would be weakend for the new scrubs cutting their teeth, it may even fuel debt, theiving & family strife as little johnny needs to have a better range of ships to fly. The skill system as is mandates that the gap widen anyways. The concept of equality and "catching up" is a non-starter under the current rules. Also great job painting perspective future buyers as criminals suggesting that CCP should bear responsibility for their crimes just by offering a product. By that measure their already guilty for charging a sub, nevermind PLEX/AUR as they stand.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3142
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:08:44 -
[916] - Quote
I look forward to someone from CCP telling us that they are pleased with the overwhelmingly positive response to 'cash for skills' in this thread.
This is not a signature.
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
843
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:19:08 -
[917] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis: wrote:I look forward to someone from CCP telling us that they are pleased with the overwhelmingly positive response to 'cash for skills' in this thread.
Isn't gonna happen alas ccp current attitude alas is a fu playerbase this is how it's gonna be..like it or fkn lump it ! |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:26:47 -
[918] - Quote
I just... well I don't care anymore at this point
The total disconnect CCP has shown with this latest cash grab that no one wanted but CCP.
They don't even have the gall to admit they want this and are pretending players who were paying them for years to access skills who are now seeing their investment in time and money nullified and made insignificant wanted to screw themselves over.
CCP killed the goose that laid the golden egg with this latest debacle out of total ignorance of what everyone was paying them for all these years.
EVE is not terribly fun most of the time. EVE is not terribly difficult most of the time.
However what EVE does take is time.
EVE is Time personified with spaceships.
Many myself included were willing to invest that time out of the enjoyment of seeing something that takes a long time progress even knowing the rewards were unrewarding and needed to be replaced by new rewards as soon as they were accomplished by waiting more time.
Now all that is over.
The majesty, immutability and insurmountably of time in EVE is lost. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:29:54 -
[919] - Quote
CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy? |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
708
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:30:50 -
[920] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:[quote=Norn Thilnir]
We already have SP for ISK. I buy a PLEX with ISK. I activate my account. I can now train SP for a month. In that thirty days I get 1.944m SP. I buy another PLEX. I activate dual account training and set up my queue. A month later I have 1.944m more SP on that character.
All this change does is reduce the time barrier between paying the money and getting the SP. How much is that worth? Nothing to me. Probably quite a bit to a competitive young player who wants to succeed in Eve.
As a player who has almost nine years in game, I am not at all concerned with a new player trying to catch up with me. He can match my ISK (by grinding for more hours or spending real cash to buy PLEX to sell for ISK), he can match my SP (by buying a character on the bazaar or injecting a bunch of SP packs), but he cannot buy nine years of experience in this deep and complex game. And if he does match me in experience by immersing himself in Eve, playing a ton, watching training videos, and learning from those around him: that is a good thing. Not a bad one.
Why not just give every greenhorns 10m SP and 100m ISK, so they could maximize their focus on learning and gaining experience and don't care much of time they have to waste on reqiured SP they have to have to be able to fly on certain ships or fit certain mods. Isn't SP injection is all about it? |
|
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:31:19 -
[921] - Quote
Useful Alt wrote:WTB 500b worth of SP
to be sold for 1T
rinse and repeat
this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market
very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision
I have a hunch... it begins with G and ends with swarm.
|
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:43:26 -
[922] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Okay, I've read enough salt-encrusted posts by entitled whiners.
This is my main. There are many like it. But this one is mine. I would never consider selling it. But I would consider selling off some misplaced SP because I had no one to tell me what was good to train or even for what learning skills were used back in 2009. I have completely wasted SP in mining and industry on this toon. I want to sell them.
I really don't care what my SP total is, other than as some sort of vague e-peen wagging. Sure it feels good to look at it and occasionally take it out and blow my load all over someone. But it is not what makes Soldarius Soldarius. It is, like everything else on the character sheet, a part of the character. Even if I do not choose to use any of the various character modification options that CCP has given us, I am glad to know they are there. So if I want to modify my clothes, my portrait, my ships, or soon my SP allocations, I can.
If there is one thing I have learned about Eve, it is that your irl wallet size is not directly proportional to your skill in game. TMC, EN24, and others are packed full of articles showcasing potatoes that think eve is p2w. They pull out dad's credit card and plex their way to that all purple marauder and think they are invincible.
I don't care how many SP you have or how many purples you have. If you don't know how to play the game and whip out your wallet on day 1, you will still get #HAZED mercilessly until you either HTFU or gb2wow.
On the other hand, if this gives a noob some incentive to farm up for a bit and accelerate himself into some of those low-SP doctrine ships like Svipuls, Caracals, T1 logi, or a Celestis for FU fleet, I'm okay with that. I don't doubt for a minute the most wealthy entities will throw injectors onto the market at cost in their local trade hub. Or maybe even give them away as an incentive to join. Jita injectors will get manipulated. New stuff always does.
As far as SP-farming, if it is profitable, I will do it. For me, that would be if I can make enough to pay for the extractors for one month of training + 1 PLEX per account. I might even pay PLEX to do multi-character training if there is enough profit in it. My goal would be to net 1 PLEX per month per character.
One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea. Blow your load? Wow, you are primitive.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1867
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 22:46:33 -
[923] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote:I just... well I don't care anymore at this point
The total disconnect CCP has shown with this latest cash grab that no one wanted but CCP.
They don't even have the gall to admit they want this and are pretending players who were paying them for years to access skills who are now seeing their investment in time and money nullified and made insignificant wanted to screw themselves over.
CCP killed the goose that laid the golden egg with this latest debacle out of total ignorance of what everyone was paying them for all these years.
EVE is not terribly fun most of the time. EVE is not terribly difficult most of the time.
However what EVE does take is time.
EVE is Time personified with spaceships.
Many myself included were willing to invest that time out of the enjoyment of seeing something that takes a long time progress even knowing the rewards were unrewarding and needed to be replaced by new rewards as soon as they were accomplished by waiting more time.
Now all that is over.
The majesty, immutability and insurmountably of time in EVE is lost. Is that what we've been paying for for all these years? Access to skills? As opposed to access to a game we enjoy that for all real purposes won't be changing with this? Are the goals and activities you've set for yourself being somehow nullified?
Further how is any of that nullified? Is your SP going away? Are the skills you trained going away? Is the experience of playing the game for those years going away? Is the method you used to obtain those skills going away? Are you mandated to use skill injectors and as such removing the choice of doing the same skilling going away? How are you getting screwed over? Are you not able to take advantage of this change the same as everyone else? Were your skills not obtained the same way everyone else' were to date?
Is Eve just the wait, and does the wait only hold meaning if it constrains everyone else as well the same way? |
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
227
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 23:24:48 -
[924] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy?
Another disturbance in the Force. I agree with the above quote.
Is Pay RL Cash for SPs to Win now the answer to the neglected New Player Experience? How are those future frozen meat puppets supposed to learn this? Yay to others that have a roomy monthly budget to fund CCP's avoidance of bankruptcy proceedings, that ain't me. My toons are well off, I'm Not!
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
367
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 23:35:30 -
[925] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Norn Thilnir wrote:Whatever happened to the harsh consequences for actions/decisions in EVE? WE happened. Like it or not, it's been 20 years since the days of "harsh" Ultima Online and Everquest, and every single game out there has moved away from "harsh", has evolved to "there is still grind to keep the masses paying, but it must be disguised under at least SOME fun, and the masses must be appeased with convenience features and fluff, or they'll stop paying." Every single MMO has unlimited re-specs, microtransactions for fluff, and conveniences like name change, server transfer, and appearance customizations. We screamed for months before allowing CCP to introduce appearance customizations, and we're screaming every time they try to introduce what's standard everywhere else. If you all absolutely want the game to STAY THE SAME, because it's the game you like or whatever, then fine, it's actually a very simple solution: no more patches, no more changes, everything stays exactly as it is now; go play. CCP can put the servers on life support and go develop something else. Enjoy. Otherwise, if you want this game to still be supported by CCP, then accept that it's their game and they'll do whatever they want to do with it; play, or don't play. When you say "WE", you actually mean the ADHD generation that has been bought up on games which have been dumbed down to spoon feed and cater for them. This is why there are hardly any decent games out these days. I played UO when it was released, you cannot find a gaming experience like that in todays age of gaming which is a shame. If it was released now you'd probably get small PK zones with the rest safe areas unless you agree to a duel, and micro-transactions for every decent item or skill in the game. Part of the reason many people played eve was because it was a relic from that time, and it was hard-core, and there was no such thing as micro-transactions.
I realised eve was parting company from players like myself a while ago when they released micro-transaction for SKINs; a feature which I had been excited about getting before they made them indestructible and only purchasable via the aurum store. I was still holding out some hope they might reverse this and go in another direction, although the skill trading is the final nail in the coffin for me.
Now I am not too bothered anymore what happens to this game.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 23:44:08 -
[926] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:You completely ignore where the SP will be coming from in the long term. There will be a lot of specialized toons who don't need more training and will be PLEXed now because they can sell off the SP and buy another PLEX with the money.
I certainly will do this and I am sure a lot of other people will do this as well. Unsub all the specialized accounts and PLEX them with the ISK I get for the SP that get accumulated over the month. So this will drive PLEX prices up, A LOT since more people will use PLEX. I will create even more accounts and finance them this way if the injector pays the bill for the PLEX + extractor.
Since PLEX and the SP you sell are somewhat coupled there will not be a big problem for people who get their ISK this way. However if you want to actually train and still PLEX your char you will probably have to farm a lot more of that ISK to get one. We already know that the price for farmed SP will be 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price+profit. So your imagined infinite rise of the PLEX is impossible because the SP price would rise with it. And if PLEX is too expensive, then so becomes SP, and the market collapses. Furthermore, if the profit becomes too low, then most people will not in fact farm even if they theoretically could. Basically, the profit has to cover the bother of actually dealing with all those toons, buying the extractors, applying them, pricing them in the market etc.
Finally, the price for SP is basically fixed to the price of PLEX, so it will always cost roughly the same in real money to buy a skill packet. Rising PLEX prices may make it near impossible for most to grind ISK for gaining SP, but it will not affect those who pay real money, at all. In fact, buying PLEX becomes more attractive as ISK source as PLEX prices skyrocket. Considered in "real stuff", a PLEX was worth 10 Asteros not too long ago, but now we are more at 15 Asteros. Yet the price in US$ for a PLEX has not changed, so in term of US$ EVE is becoming a cheaper place.
If PLEX prices rise quickly, then potential buyers of SP will find them unaffordable, producers of SP will find their profit margins too small to bother, and those who have real money to spend will find it attractive to cash it out in PLEX and ISK, to buy SP (at always steady prices in terms of US$) or stuff (at rapidly sinking princes in terms of US$).
This will push PLEX prices back down. There will be a balance point. The 1 trillion ISK question is just at what level... |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2238
|
Posted - 2016.01.21 23:45:37 -
[927] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy? Another disturbance in the Force. I agree with the above quote. Is Pay RL Cash for SPs to Win now the answer to the neglected New Player Experience? How are those future frozen meat puppets supposed to learn this? Yay to others that have a roomy monthly budget to fund CCP's avoidance of bankruptcy proceedings, that ain't me. My toons are well off, I'm Not! >Jeven
I pay real life cash for SP every time I subscribe an account using my credit card. In fact, just on this account, I have purchased nearly 23,652,000 SP in the past year. It cost me $135. OMG! Eve is suddenly pay to win!
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4517
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:03:33 -
[928] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy?
Nevermind new players. It's about the money. This feature started with the question: "What else can we do so players buy more AUR?"
And here we are. Skillpoints, which used to be a retention tool, have become a "hurdle" that can be "lifted" if you pay again to CCP after paying your subscription.
It's not about what could go wrong. It's about how nothing goes right once you start to double charge your newer customers for a subscription based product.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3337
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:25:38 -
[929] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:
I pay real life cash for SP every time I subscribe an account using my credit card. In fact, just on this account, I have purchased nearly 23,652,000 SP in the past year. It cost me $135. OMG! Eve is suddenly pay to win!
. No, you bought time. Time top play a game, have access to servers, experience what they made. The SP were a byproduct of that time but it is not what you bought.
Now they are dividing the sp from the time and something is being lost in the separation. Removing it from the rest of the game and making it a thing and of itself and putting a price tag on that aspect.
If you think you bought sp in the past tell me if you forgot to refill your skill queue did they hand you the extra points that you had bought? No? Shame, really.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Rumblestrip
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:33:07 -
[930] - Quote
Doomheim awaits. See you on the other side. |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:44:59 -
[931] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Now they are dividing the sp from the time and something is being lost in the separation. Removing it from the rest of the game and making it a thing and of itself and putting a price tag on that aspect. m
We can infer from this statement that CCP plans really are to separate SP from time - Have you let slip something from the NDA
Will subscriptions in the near future be for time access only? - I hope they include a few free Tokens to spend on Skills ! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1867
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:47:15 -
[932] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:No, you bought time. Time top play a game, have access to servers, experience what they made. The SP were a byproduct of that time but it is not what you bought.
Now they are dividing the sp from the time and something is being lost in the separation. Removing it from the rest of the game and making it a thing and of itself and putting a price tag on that aspect.
If you think you bought sp in the past tell me if you forgot to refill your skill queue did they hand you the extra points that you had bought? No? Shame, really.
m
Saying that we buy time to log in but not SP because they don't reimburse SP from when the queue is empty seems inconsistent. CCP doesn't compensate us for the time we're not playing either, but at the same time, skills in queue or not, CCP does cut off our SP gains when our subs lapse. SP accrues with time, and time is paid, which means SP, or more accurately the potential for SP, is paid for with that sub.
That's not a byproduct, not when they've already price pointed timed SP gains through MPTCs. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2238
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:50:49 -
[933] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:
I pay real life cash for SP every time I subscribe an account using my credit card. In fact, just on this account, I have purchased nearly 23,652,000 SP in the past year. It cost me $135. OMG! Eve is suddenly pay to win!
. No, you bought time. Time top play a game, have access to servers, experience what they made. The SP were a byproduct of that time but it is not what you bought. Now they are dividing the sp from the time and something is being lost in the separation. Removing it from the rest of the game and making it a thing and of itself and putting a price tag on that aspect. If you think you bought sp in the past tell me if you forgot to refill your skill queue did they hand you the extra points that you had bought? No? Shame, really. m
Mike, I completely disagree with you. I have been continuously subscribed to Eve, paying by credit card, since I joined back in 2007. I have not logged in to Eve every single day during that time.
I bought SP when I remained subscribed to Eve through a deployment to Afghanistan and another to Iraq. I bought SP during the few months here and there when I was burned out on Eve, yet remained subscribed knowing I would come back to the game eventually. Literally the only thing I gained from that time I spent subscribed was extra SP. I experienced nothing of Eve during that time - and each time paid for it dearly with rustiness and lack of new game mechanics when I came back to Eve.
Between field exercises, training, deployments, burnout, vacations, and other family commitments, I would estimate nearly half of my nine years in Eve has been spent playing Skill Change/Queue online. If that's not paying for SP, I don't know what is...
Furthermore, even if you are paying for access to the servers, you cannot play Eve 23/7. You do gain SP 24/7. My average play session is probably 5 hours a day. That means for 19 hours a day all I am paying for is a skill queue that keeps passively ticking up SP.
And that still does not address the point about dual character training. That is literally paying for more SP. You cannot play more than one character at a time.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Memphis Baas
977
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 00:53:08 -
[934] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:I realised eve was parting company from players like myself a while ago when they released micro-transaction for SKINs
The unfortunate reality is that your subscription payments are as valid as anyone else's subscription payments, so although being the ONE game that still offers hardcore PVP is commendable and even desirable, all the microtransaction games out there are clearly following a profitable trend, and the gaming community is what it is, wants what it wants.
I'm ok with microtransactions for SKINs and costumes, and even this skill re-spec system (cumbersome as it is with the injectors), because CCP does appear to want to maintain some of the gritty, hardcore aspects of the game. To me, the skill trade system doesn't seem like the start of a trend that's about to spiral out of control, but rather like a step that they can take to increase their revenue, without affecting the PVP combat mechanics all that much. You can shoot and kill the guy in the ship just like before; who cares HOW he got the skills to fly the ship.
You're not competing against anyone's actual skillpoints, you're just competing your ship vs. the enemy's ship. Falcon or Arazu decloaks at 45 km, does it matter whether it's a 2006 character or a 2016 character flying it? I don't think you'll have time to even worry about it; it's do or die at that point, their support fleet is on its way. You see a critical ship in the overview, and you react just like before, nothing's changed. |
Lelira Cirim
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
268
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:00:16 -
[935] - Quote
At 51M I'm sortof on the cusp of this being useful for me, so I'll give it a try and rejigger some stuff. I'm just sad that the amount extracted/injected isn't a power of 2. Pudding proof that "extras" are designed to be sold. Unless you don't mind 12,000 points hanging off your x2 skill. :p
Do not actively tank my patience.
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:02:24 -
[936] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: Furthermore, if the profit becomes too low, then most people will not in fact farm even if they theoretically could. Basically, the profit has to cover the bother of actually dealing with all those toons, buying the extractors, applying them, pricing them in the market etc.
I agree with your main point but I think you're wrong about the 'people won't do this for no profit' thing. Remember that even if you just break even with this you get to have and use an account without putting any ISK or RL cash into keeping it active. You can't advance the skills on that account but many won't care about that -- I'm sure plenty of people have accounts like that. I know I do. Take your pick from market trading alts with all the market skills already, JF alts, accounts full of cyno toons or PI alts, link alts with all the leadership, etc skills they need, spy characters, hillariously named alts you use to troll people with, ganking alts. I'm sure there are others too.
I know I'd be happy running some of my currently unsubbed accounts at break even. Compared with some of the self-funding methods I've used in the past (PI farms, market trading, etc) using the extractors and selling the skillpacks is really low effort. This is going to be the lowest-effort way there is to farm, you can probably get it down to a single digit number of minutes per month. The only issue is going to be the high setup cost and that you'll need to invest a few billion ISK in PLEX buy orders, etc to keep the wheels turning which mean it won't be an option available to people who aren't already established in the game. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:28:21 -
[937] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I know I'd be happy running some of my currently unsubbed accounts at break even. Well, I guess that makes sense if you actually want to play those currently unsubbed accounts. Then "break even" means to you that a toon that used to be inaccessible now has become accessible, and the price you pay for this is merely the ado with the SP extractors. Notably though, this now active toon would never make any progress, i.e., this would only work if you are happy with playing the toon as it is, forever.
However, this is not proper "SP farming". It's more "toon access paid by SP". A proper "SP farm" must make net ISK from selling SP, and furthermore, the ISK/effort ration must be competitive with other ways of making ISk.
In a sense, you are actually a SP farmer's nightmare. You and people like you might indeed destroy the market - because you would be happy to sell the "product" at cost, or possibly even somewhat below cost.
If the SP injector price stays around or below 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price, then we know that the main thing happening is that people are using this to keep "finished alts" active in the game. I think that probably would be a good thing...? |
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:31:06 -
[938] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Plus, forum popularity points are not a valid metric for anything! They practically give them out in the likes for likes thread! Most of the likes I got are roleplaying popularity points imagine that.
Actually, it is a fairly accurate representation of the general opinion of the player base on what features they do/don't like. Being this isn't the features/ideas forum, I suppose the numbers are a bit off as the like button is used more more frequently to show favoritism towards a feature rather than simply "that's funny!" or something irrelevant to the topic at hand. |
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:39:08 -
[939] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy? Another disturbance in the Force. I agree with the above quote. Is Pay RL Cash for SPs to Win now the answer to the neglected New Player Experience? How are those future frozen meat puppets supposed to learn this? Yay to others that have a roomy monthly budget to fund CCP's avoidance of bankruptcy proceedings, that ain't me. My toons are well off, I'm Not! >Jeven I pay real life cash for SP every time I subscribe an account using my credit card. In fact, just on this account, I have purchased nearly 23,652,000 SP in the past year. It cost me $135. OMG! Eve is suddenly pay to win!
No you don't. You pay for the ability to log onto the server and play the game. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
565
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:57:35 -
[940] - Quote
Obviously correct. You pay to access the servers. (I can't even believe this is being debated.) You aren't even required to train SP while you're in-game. You could pay for years and never train anything. You do not pay for SP. You pay for time. Wow. |
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2068
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 01:58:02 -
[941] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I know I'd be happy running some of my currently unsubbed accounts at break even. Well, I guess that makes sense if you actually want to play those currently unsubbed accounts. Then "break even" means to you that a toon that used to be inaccessible now has become accessible, and the price you pay for this is merely the ado with the SP extractors. Notably though, this now active toon would never make any progress, i.e., this would only work if you are happy with playing the toon as it is, forever. However, this is not proper "SP farming". It's more "toon access paid by SP". A proper "SP farm" must make net ISK from selling SP, and furthermore, the ISK/effort ration must be competitive with other ways of making ISk. In a sense, you are actually a SP farmer's nightmare. You and people like you might indeed destroy the market - because you would be happy to sell the "product" at cost, or possibly even somewhat below cost. If the SP injector price stays around or below 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price, then we know that the main thing happening is that people are using this to keep "finished alts" active in the game. I think that probably would be a good thing...? You don't get it. There are A LOT of such alts out there that will profit from that. Take for example our alliance. We use gank alts who only need a few SP to do what they do. There is no point in training anything else. All you want is more toons active in parallel for "free" so you can gank cheaper or bigger targets.
The same goes for mining alts. They have a limit of how many SP are useful. So instead of grinding the ISK for the PLEX you just sell that SP and keep all the ISK from mining for other stuff.
There are a lot of other types of alts out there that share the same characteristics and my guess is with this their number will increase dramatically.
=> No more grinding for free (or almost free) alts, but they will not progress.
This will change EVE, a lot in my opinion. It takes absolutely no effort to run such an alt. I talked about this in the old thread, no one seams to care. Somehow you are all focused on if this is p2w or whatever and don't realize that there are a lot of other implications.
Well I don't care, I am ready for the change. This will probably increase my accounts but lower my costs. Someone will have to pay that, not sure who that will be and it's probably the guys who where in favour of this anyway. All's well that ends well.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 02:07:06 -
[942] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I know I'd be happy running some of my currently unsubbed accounts at break even. Well, I guess that makes sense if you actually want to play those currently unsubbed accounts. Then "break even" means to you that a toon that used to be inaccessible now has become accessible, and the price you pay for this is merely the ado with the SP extractors. Notably though, this now active toon would never make any progress, i.e., this would only work if you are happy with playing the toon as it is, forever.
I think for people with multiple accounts people probably do feel like that about some of their alts. I have alts with completely pointless skills (a combat link alt that can fly a Rorqual for example) because I was paying so I might as well train something. Also I know people who don't play any more and would like to play once or twice a month but don't feel that this justifies the monthly sub. Once they stop paying the sub they're locked out and can't join in those few times they want to. Something like this would allow them to play casually a few times a month without much overhead. And at the moment they're not advancing at all when unsubbed.
Tristan Agion wrote: However, this is not proper "SP farming". It's more "toon access paid by SP". A proper "SP farm" must make net ISK from selling SP, and furthermore, the ISK/effort ration must be competitive with other ways of making ISk.
In a sense, you are actually a SP farmer's nightmare. You and people like you might indeed destroy the market - because you would be happy to sell the "product" at cost, or possibly even somewhat below cost.
Well you can define a farm however you like. I think SP farming will end up being combined with other farming because it's so low-effort (a PI farm that also generates skillpacks, for example) and in that case it might not need to make back a profit at all - the PI is paying the sub and whatever you get for the skillpoints is all profit or vice-versa. People do a similar thing at the moment to farm toons for the character bazaar -- use PI on some slots to pay the PLEX while you grow a toon on one slot to sell in the bazaar.
People who multibox mining fleets, incursions, etc will be able to do the same thing once they've trained the characters they multibox up as far as they need to and with skillpacks they can insta-train new ones as needed. If you can make a low-effort self-funding account there's nothing to stop you making as many as you can multibox without going cross-eyed or frying your PC.
Tristan Agion wrote: If the SP injector price stays around or below 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price, then we know that the main thing happening is that people are using this to keep "finished alts" active in the game. I think that probably would be a good thing...?
Well it's a good thing for me. I'm paying less RL money per month for my accounts and I get to activate some of the dormant ones and make a ton of bonus ISK selling the skills I trained 'just because'. And it provides a steady supply of SP into the market for people who want to buy that. It's not so good for people who want to PLEX-to-play while still training though as others have pointed out. That will be much harder as PLEX prices go up. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 02:23:03 -
[943] - Quote
I think you need to make different considerations for tiers. The scaling effectiveness is the right intent, but you'll still have low SP characters and high SP characters in the same market. There should be different extractors by SP tier.
An extractor for first tier use, another for second-lowest tier use, and on.
Otherwise the high SP characters who need more extractors will put more pressure on the extractor market than low SP characters (who receive more of the SP in an extractor). If you want more benefit for low SP characters, you should also insulate their market price from higher SP users... right?
Secondly, to simplify the math and the process, extractors should all yield 500k SP (or another standard amount) but consume more SP in their creation based on the tier.
I don't think the PLEX inflation resulting from this additional AUR sink can be helped, but you can still make extractors more granular and isolate extractor markets from each other.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 02:37:40 -
[944] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I think you need to make different considerations for tiers. The scaling effectiveness is the right intent, but you'll still have low SP characters and high SP characters in the same market. There should be different extractors by SP tier.
An extractor for first tier use, another for second-lowest tier use, and on.
Otherwise the high SP characters who need more extractors will put more pressure on the extractor market than low SP characters (who receive more of the SP in an extractor). If you want more benefit for low SP characters, you should also insulate their market price from higher SP users... right?
Secondly, to simplify the math and the process, extractors should all yield 500k SP (or another standard amount) but consume more SP in their creation based on the tier.
I don't think the PLEX inflation resulting from this additional AUR sink can be helped, but you can still make extractors more granular and isolate extractor markets from each other.
An interesting tweak would be to have it so that high-tier extractors only extract from characters in the high-skillpoint bracket. So if you have >50mil sp you have to inject skills taken from the head of another character with >50mil SP. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 02:38:43 -
[945] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I think you need to make different considerations for tiers. The scaling effectiveness is the right intent, but you'll still have low SP characters and high SP characters in the same market. There should be different extractors by SP tier.
An extractor for first tier use, another for second-lowest tier use, and on.
Otherwise the high SP characters who need more extractors will put more pressure on the extractor market than low SP characters (who receive more of the SP in an extractor). If you want more benefit for low SP characters, you should also insulate their market price from higher SP users... right?
Secondly, to simplify the math and the process, extractors should all yield 500k SP (or another standard amount) but consume more SP in their creation based on the tier.
I don't think the PLEX inflation resulting from this additional AUR sink can be helped, but you can still make extractors more granular and isolate extractor markets from each other. An interesting tweak would be to have it so that high-tier extractors only extract from characters in the high-skillpoint bracket. So if you have >50mil sp you have to inject skills taken from the head of another character with >50mil SP. I was just thinking that over dinner, and wondering what the implications would be for doing it that way and not.
And whether you could allow a straight 500k SP = 500k SP that way. But probably not.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 02:50:45 -
[946] - Quote
Is there any word on a skill requirement to use injectors? Something perhaps in the "Neural Enhancement" category? Should it require Cybernetics to V?
My biggest issue with injectors is I find them immersion breaking. I can't think of a plausible (even fantasy plausible) reason why skills would be interchangeable in this way.
I could understand if someone with a special "informorph teaching" type skill were able to build up skill points as some kind of "mental instruction class" sort of thing.
But I can't see a way for one person to suddenly forget how to fly Covert Ops, and thereby impart the ability to fly Covert Ops to someone else.
It would make more sense if you could study a 512k sp skill called "Informorph Teaching" or something like that. And when it completes they use an extractor to delete that skill, and sell it. Then they train it again,.... etc.
That makes a whole lot more sense than just plain forgetting stuff you already know.
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy? Another disturbance in the Force. I agree with the above quote. Is Pay RL Cash for SPs to Win now the answer to the neglected New Player Experience? How are those future frozen meat puppets supposed to learn this? Yay to others that have a roomy monthly budget to fund CCP's avoidance of bankruptcy proceedings, that ain't me. My toons are well off, I'm Not! >Jeven I pay real life cash for SP every time I subscribe an account using my credit card. In fact, just on this account, I have purchased nearly 23,652,000 SP in the past year. It cost me $135. OMG! Eve is suddenly pay to win! No you don't. You pay for the ability to log onto the server and play the game.
Really only one third of your subscription goes to that. Because you can have three active characters on one account, but only one of them will be gaining skill points.
For a multiple accounts player, the extra accounts are pretty much just there for skill gain. Or at least 2/3 of them are just there for skill gain.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1867
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 03:06:08 -
[947] - Quote
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:No you don't. You pay for the ability to log onto the server and play the game. Have you tried gaining SP with a lapsed account? Maybe it's a coincidence that it just stops, but I bet it's related to paying money. |
Memphis Baas
977
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 03:16:04 -
[948] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:My biggest issue with injectors is I find them immersion breaking. I can't think of a plausible (even fantasy plausible) reason why skills would be interchangeable in this way. I can't see a way for one person to suddenly forget how to fly Covert Ops, and thereby impart the ability to fly Covert Ops to someone else.
How about if it requires podding: currently, podding involves "saving" the connections and patterns of all the neurons in your brain in the form of instructions, so that the medical clone's brain can be rearranged to be identical to yours, and then you wake up in the medical clone body and continue as you were.
So for your capability to fly Covert Ops ships, how about they put the neuron patterns for that to a disk and no longer apply these patterns to your clone; you forget how to fly Covert Ops. Then the buyer goes to a medical facility and they remodel his brain a bit according to the instructions on the disk, and voila he suddenly knows Covert Ops, like Neo in the Matrix.
Everybody just has to get podded for it to satisfy your "immersion" needs (thanks for that, btw). |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1055
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 03:58:09 -
[949] - Quote
Skill Injectors and Skill Extractors should require Polaris V to use. |
File Loading
Caldari Inequality Control
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 05:22:20 -
[950] - Quote
Remove New Crap Eden Store or RIOT ! |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 06:21:05 -
[951] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Is there any word on a skill requirement to use injectors? Something perhaps in the "Neural Enhancement" category? Should it require Cybernetics to V? My biggest issue with injectors is I find them immersion breaking. I can't think of a plausible (even fantasy plausible) reason why skills would be interchangeable in this way. I could understand if someone with a special "informorph teaching" type skill were able to build up skill points as some kind of "mental instruction class" sort of thing. But I can't see a way for one person to suddenly forget how to fly Covert Ops, and thereby impart the ability to fly Covert Ops to someone else. It would make more sense if you could study a 512k sp skill called "Informorph Teaching" or something like that. And when it completes they use an extractor to delete that skill, and sell it. Then they train it again,.... etc. That makes a whole lot more sense than just plain forgetting stuff you already know. Zepheros Naeonis wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:CCP are you sure this will work as you intend? Are you sure this will draw more new players into the game? Are you sure it won't just **** off more people than make them happy? Another disturbance in the Force. I agree with the above quote. Is Pay RL Cash for SPs to Win now the answer to the neglected New Player Experience? How are those future frozen meat puppets supposed to learn this? Yay to others that have a roomy monthly budget to fund CCP's avoidance of bankruptcy proceedings, that ain't me. My toons are well off, I'm Not! >Jeven I pay real life cash for SP every time I subscribe an account using my credit card. In fact, just on this account, I have purchased nearly 23,652,000 SP in the past year. It cost me $135. OMG! Eve is suddenly pay to win! No you don't. You pay for the ability to log onto the server and play the game. Really only one third of your subscription goes to that. Because you can have three active characters on one account, but only one of them will be gaining skill points. For a multiple accounts player, the extra accounts are pretty much just there for skill gain. Or at least 2/3 of them are just there for skill gain.
Didn't Johnny mnemonic forget parts of his past when he injected excess of 80GB into the chip in his head - If you need a reason |
David Semris
House Semris
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 07:10:34 -
[952] - Quote
"I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release."
"our target is February so you can expect to give this a try in the very near future."
"We very much appreciate all the debate and feedback" (but we already decided on things....)
So it-¦s decided anyway. There might be a tweak or two based on feedback but the core will stay.
I still do not understand how is this supposed to attract new players. I long to see the commercial: "New players do not despair! For a few thousand Euro you can instantly level up and catch up with those bitter vets!" That will surely get a great attention and it will work like a magnet to attract new players.
Seems more like a way to suck more money from current audience, while the game lasts. So in the end PLEX might be in fault, cause if all players payed monthly fee, all these other ways to force the money out of people might not have been set in place. I hate "free" to play models.
Some (most likely few) players will leave but we have calculated the profit gained from this will earn us way more money overall, so all is good. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4519
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 07:59:30 -
[953] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:No, you bought time. Time top play a game, have access to servers, experience what they made. The SP were a byproduct of that time but it is not what you bought.
Now they are dividing the sp from the time and something is being lost in the separation. Removing it from the rest of the game and making it a thing and of itself and putting a price tag on that aspect.
If you think you bought sp in the past tell me if you forgot to refill your skill queue did they hand you the extra points that you had bought? No? Shame, really.
m
Saying that we buy time to log in but not SP because they don't reimburse SP from when the queue is empty seems inconsistent. CCP doesn't compensate us for the time we're not playing either, but at the same time, skills in queue or not, CCP does cut off our SP gains when our subs lapse. SP accrues with time, and time is paid, which means SP, or more accurately the potential for SP, is paid for with that sub. That's not a byproduct, not when they've already price pointed timed SP gains through MPTCs.
SP are a retention tool. Their role is (was) to create a need to extend the subscription time, by blocking access to content and lifting that barrier based on player action over time (skilling). That's a key element in EVE's access monetization. Yet by allowing to buy them as a commodity, SP shift from access monetization to activity monetization -SP are bought not to lift a barrier, but to do something ingame onxe the barrier is lfited.
CCP is very literally trading subscription time for a short term income -and they are loading the dice in their favor, obviously. You bet that CCP will earn more money for traded SPs than for "subscription" SPs. Say, a PLEX is worth some 2,000,000 SP, for a base of 5 $/Gé¼ per 500,000 SP (remember, PLEX are more expensive than subscription time). 5 $/Gé¼ yield 900 AUR at the shop, so that's the bare minimum for extractor cost... maybe some will expect that cost be modified by the devaluation of SP when they're transfered to high SP characters, but come on: CCP's cut is from the extraction, not the injection.
So you pay money and lift an access barrier (fly that ship, use that module), yet that doesn't grants access to the game. Access still depends on a subscription... does that sound fair? If extractors and SP yield more money than subscriptions, why keep mandatory subscriptions then?
Some weeks ago, I already pointed how CCP's apparent acceptance of higher activity even if population is lower pointed at the possibility to shift access monetization for activity monetization; and activity monetization is how F2P games work.
F2P games also have high server populations, which need properly scaled hardware. Hardware like, accidentally, Tranqulity III compared to Tranqulity II, that old server which never was used beyond 30% of its capacity.
CCP doing some of the things required to go F2P could be an accident, specially if the development led to naturally higher populations rather than be focused on splitting niches into smaller niches.
But maybe, you know, it's not an accident and my intuition is terribly right.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
505
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 08:20:21 -
[954] - Quote
David Semris wrote:I still do not understand how is this supposed to attract new players. I long to see the commercial: "New players do not despair! For a few thousand Euro you can instantly level up and catch up with those bitter vets!" That will surely get a great attention and it will work like a magnet to attract new players. It don't. It's a way to remove unnecessary SP are put it into alt. All points that Rise made in his blog are already flawed. There will be no skills respecs (because of cap) and it will be expensive to "catch up" with vets. Skill points system is flawed. CCP knows it. They will make money on it and people will pay them for system that is flawed. Which is super funny because I was thinking EvE players are better than average button mashers. I guess they are not. I'm waiting for the price of those thing, and how much PLEX will rise. PLEX price is crucial in this game.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 08:21:48 -
[955] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:IReally only one third of your subscription goes to that. Because you can have three active characters on one account, but only one of them will be gaining skill points.
For a multiple accounts player, the extra accounts are pretty much just there for skill gain. Or at least 2/3 of them are just there for skill gain. No, it does not. You pay money to log on onto the server. End of discussion.
Yonis Kador wrote:Obviously correct. You pay to access the servers. (I can't even believe this is being debated.) You aren't even required to train SP while you're in-game. You could pay for years and never train anything. You do not pay for SP. You pay for time. Wow.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Have you tried gaining SP with a lapsed account? Maybe it's a coincidence that it just stops, but I bet it's related to paying money. Have you ever tried PvPing with a lapsed account? Have you ever tried undocking with a lapsed account? How about selling something on the market for isk? What about clone jumping?
Glad I made my point. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 08:59:50 -
[956] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:People who multibox mining fleets, incursions, etc will be able to do the same thing once they've trained the characters they multibox up as far as they need to and with skillpacks they can insta-train new ones as needed. If you can make a low-effort self-funding account there's nothing to stop you making as many as you can multibox without going cross-eyed or frying your PC. The "low-effort, self-funding" bit is key though, and will keep prices close to 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price - even if counterintuitively from below rather than from above.
I wonder how many skill packets will make it to market anyhow. If you can afford to run several alts on your ISK generation as is, then you can generate skill packets off them "for free". But you may also decide to use them up yourself. Essentially, the alts would accelerate the main's training speed then.
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:I'm paying less RL money per month for my accounts and I get to activate some of the dormant ones and make a ton of bonus ISK selling the skills I trained 'just because'. And it provides a steady supply of SP into the market for people who want to buy that. It's not so good for people who want to PLEX-to-play while still training though as others have pointed out. That will be much harder as PLEX prices go up. This sounds like you predict that CCP will be losing money with this change? I have a hard time believing that CCP will be worse off at least in the short term. Admittedly, it is complex to predict net effects here, but unlike us CCP does have all the numbers.
However, "PLEX-to-play" is a real problem for CCP. I don't see how EVE is viable if a large fraction of players stop paying real money after a relatively short time. To keep that going, you would need a strong influx of new players all the time - and that does not seem where EVE is at right now. If people stop playing who are not paying real money, then this no loss for CCP - at least not until EVE becomes so emptied of player-generated content as to become unattractive for people who do pay with real money.
I wonder if the core business strategy behind all the EVE developments is really just to weed out the deadbeats, but slowly enough so that EVE does not catastrophically empty at any point... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1868
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 09:06:37 -
[957] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:SP are a retention tool. Their role is (was) to create a need to extend the subscription time, by blocking access to content and lifting that barrier based on player action over time (skilling). That's a key element in EVE's access monetization. Yet by allowing to buy them as a commodity, SP shift from access monetization to activity monetization -SP are bought not to lift a barrier, but to do something ingame onxe the barrier is lfited.
CCP is very literally trading subscription time for a short term income -and they are loading the dice in their favor, obviously. You bet that CCP will earn more money for traded SPs than for "subscription" SPs. Say, a PLEX is worth some 2,000,000 SP, for a base of 5 $/Gé¼ per 500,000 SP (remember, PLEX are more expensive than subscription time). 5 $/Gé¼ yield 900 AUR at the shop, so that's the bare minimum for extractor cost... maybe some will expect that cost be modified by the devaluation of SP when they're transfered to high SP characters, but come on: CCP's cut is from the extraction, not the injection.
So you pay money and lift an access barrier (fly that ship, use that module), yet that doesn't grants access to the game. Access still depends on a subscription... does that sound fair? If extractors and SP yield more money than subscriptions, why keep mandatory subscriptions then?
Some weeks ago, I already pointed how CCP's apparent acceptance of higher activity even if population is lower pointed at the possibility to shift access monetization for activity monetization; and activity monetization is how F2P games work.
F2P games also have high server populations, which need properly scaled hardware. Hardware like, accidentally, Tranqulity III compared to Tranqulity II, that old server which never was used beyond 30% of its capacity.
CCP doing some of the things required to go F2P could be an accident, specially if the development led to naturally higher populations rather than be focused on splitting niches into smaller niches.
But maybe, you know, it's not an accident and my intuition is terribly right. Perhaps in some future hypothetical iteration this might hold more true, but the current model isn't divorcing anyone from access monetization. Rather, it's trying to capitalize on that same access monetization by selling it in part again. Basically someone at CCP decided that a portion of the access model, the SP from timed training, had a value on it's own. That actually happened when MPTC was introduced. This is an extension and abstraction of that.
Further, it's an extension that depends upon, rather than divorces us from, an access model. SP is still first and foremost tied to access. Without it SP doesn't form, which means there is no purpose for extractors beyong the current amount of waste SP, and with that a capped potential to further induce PLEX sales for those willing. What this actually does from a monetization standpoint is allow 2 potential player groups to feed from each other. The multi account players without need for continual training get a passive stream to fund their accounts while the SP hungry players inject the PLEX the passive accounts use to keep active in order to buy the SP, returning that same isk to the first.
Now you asked, is that fair? Ultimately the answer I come to is the opposite of yours, mainly because no one mandated either of them participate using the means of real money. There is enough PLEX floating around that the SP creating players can get through other means, and the SP hungry can simply grind their own isk. Basically CCP is only monetizing those that explicitly chose to be monetized with this, and that's not terribly sustainable when at some the SP buyers are going to a) have less to unlock over time and b)have access to better isk generating capacity that may have been SP prohibitive which may decrease dependence on PLEX.
Further, the greatest doubt I have that activity monetization is a rational or even possible direction is the way skills and activities work. Problematically for this model, most activities in the game have a wide variety of tools that can do them, and while we crave the progress that is a part of the price of admission, would we be as hungry when each meal has a price point? What happens when the access model gets turned off, and the SP with it? The subs that go inactive playing skill queue online suddenly become non-contributors to CCPs bottom line, and with SP functioning as it does is there enough repeat demand to keep the current population paying?
To be blunt, the monetization based on SP with access being the source is only being strengthened regarding the revenue it can generate. Meanwhile activity monetization would take even more radical changes because it by nature cannot currently sustain the game without a continuous influx of players, something I think CCP knows it can't count on. SP would need to be changed to need refreshing of some sort to prevent every player from reaching a fully "free play" point.
Also TQ 3 isn't about the full server load, it's more about the fact that load can't be redistributed the same way split server based games do without, again a massive and fundamentally game changing alteration to how being in space functions. As a result the metric of most importance isn't how much of the total cluster capacity is in use, but what the max a single node can handle. Fact of the matter is, if Tidi'd battles are still pushing the nodes to their less than graceful degradation points and you can't seamlessly split the load, you still aren't overprovisioned regardless of your total capacity. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1868
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 09:09:03 -
[958] - Quote
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Have you tried gaining SP with a lapsed account? Maybe it's a coincidence that it just stops, but I bet it's related to paying money. Have you ever tried PvPing with a lapsed account? Have you ever tried undocking with a lapsed account? How about selling something on the market for isk? What about clone jumping? Glad I made my point. Was your point that SP was just as much something you pay for as the rest of what you mentioned, making the statement of paying for SP entirely true?
If so, yeah, you made your point.
Yonis Kador wrote:Obviously correct. You pay to access the servers. (I can't even believe this is being debated.) You aren't even required to train SP while you're in-game. You could pay for years and never train anything. You do not pay for SP. You pay for time. Wow. No, it's not "being debated" that we pay for access. It's being debated whether the features that come exclusively as part of something you pay is something you pay for.
The reasoning against sounds like claiming you got a radio in a car you bought for free because of the fact that you may chose not to use it while knowing full well its cost was part of the vehicle price. |
Morkan Damosty
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 09:35:20 -
[959] - Quote
Hi everyone,
So much noise for pretty nothing at all :
1)We wonGÇÖt buy SP in the Eve Store, only SP selling by former players. It's not really Pay To Win.
2)Why would former players extract their SP ?
Probably to feed an alt, or to help rookie pilots in their corp, not to sell them.
And if they intend to sell them, itGÇÖs to make money, a profitable amount of money, at a price far too high for not former players.
3)Former players are rich enough to offer SP injectors. But why would they do such a thing ? Why would they spend a lot of money to add 150 000 or 300 000 SP ? ItGÇÖs even not or just enough for level 5 of a rank 1 skill !
4)What about me ? IGÇÖm less than 50M SP, so I could expect 400 000 SP from an injector. But 400 000 SP is only 6 days training with good mapping and implants. So why would I spend a lot of ISK, maybe spend real money to buy a Plex, just for 6 days ?
So I really think itGÇÖs a lot of noise for nothing at all. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2068
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 10:14:36 -
[960] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:The "low-effort, self-funding" bit is key though, and will keep prices close to 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price - even if counterintuitively from below rather than from above. I also have to point out that if the price is below 0.25*PLEX+extractor another effect may come into play which may lower the subscription numbers. Until know the ONLY way to get SP was to have an active subscription. So there are actually a lot of people who just let their accounts running even if they have no time to play EVE to not miss out on that SP.
Even without the price below 0.25*PLEX+extractor that monopoly on SP acquisition is gone and may compel others to simply unsubscribe for the absence, because they can always buy the SP back if they need to. It's no longer coupled to an active subscription. Until now you fell behind if doing so, this is no longer true. However, this is only a psychological thing which is falling away here and you will still get SP cheaper than if you purchase them. But for some this change may be all that is needed.
If the price falls below 0.25*PLEX+extractor it suddenly becomes stupid to stay subscribed while not playing. You simply lose money and you don't have to be very smart to notice that.
So maybe that's even better for the players, since they will probably save money in the end. I just doubt that was the intention of the change.
I seriously don't get this change. I am not sure why they don't even address those concerns. It looks like they just want to see what happens and the change was pushed down from some paper pusher who does not understand EVE and does not account for the effects this will have on the game and the players.
Not even does it **** off a lot of players, I see absolutely no reason why this should generate more revenue for them.
I mean it's also obvious that the slow standard SP accumulation and the presence of this SP injectors will look to any new player who is accustomed to f2p titles like an ordinary paywall which is just there to incentivise the purchase of said packages with more RL money. But EVE is still a subscription game and this and the ridiculous price tag will **** anyone off in their right mind.
I doubt that there are enought RL rich guys with OCD that will just trow all their money at EVE to get their chars to max SP to compensate for all the negative effects this may have.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 10:46:54 -
[961] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:If the price falls below 0.25*PLEX+extractor it suddenly becomes stupid to stay subscribed while not playing. You simply lose money and you don't have to be very smart to notice that. ... I doubt that there are enought RL rich guys with OCD that will just trow all their money at EVE to get their chars to max SP to compensate for all the negative effects this may have. The price would have to fall below 0.25*PLEX, not 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price, since a skill packet is worth about a quarter month of training. This is (unfortunately) an argument for a higher price of the extractor...
If I had to take a guess, then I would say that the average EVE player is both older and more affluent than the average gamer. I'm thinking more tech professional than freshman here... And even if that were not true now, then it is still entirely thinkable that CCP has decided to pitch this niche game at this niche audience in the long run. It's not a bad niche to go for. The first few "computer game" generations are still in the market, and they are approaching the "wealthy" stage of life (a decade or two in employment, but before retirement). |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 11:11:20 -
[962] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: This sounds like you predict that CCP will be losing money with this change? I have a hard time believing that CCP will be worse off at least in the short term. Admittedly, it is complex to predict net effects here, but unlike us CCP does have all the numbers.
No! I'm not trying to say that this is bad and they will make less money. They'll make less money *from me* but I expect the change will encourage more people to subscribe (either to buy SP and use them, to sell SP from an alt and spend the ISK or whatever). The increase in PLEX price should also get more people buying PLEX just for the ISK and no doubt there will be some who decide that instead of running their account for free they want to funnel all the SPs it generates into their main as you suggest.
It will also give some people a new goal to grind ISK for. A lot of people get to the point where they have a pile of ISK and nothing to do with it and then they stop. Now they can spend it on SP so they can set a goal of 'I want 100M SP' and keep grinding ISK to buy their way up there.
Tristan Agion wrote: However, "PLEX-to-play" is a real problem for CCP. I don't see how EVE is viable if a large fraction of players stop paying real money after a relatively short time. To keep that going, you would need a strong influx of new players all the time - and that does not seem where EVE is at right now. If people stop playing who are not paying real money, then this no loss for CCP - at least not until EVE becomes so emptied of player-generated content as to become unattractive for people who do pay with real money.
I wonder if the core business strategy behind all the EVE developments is really just to weed out the deadbeats, but slowly enough so that EVE does not catastrophically empty at any point...
Well active logins are way down from where they were in previous years already, particularly in certain time periods. Eve feels like there are less people in it now than 5 years ago. You can see how a free to play eve could work -- make all accounts playable for free (or perhaps unlimited time trial accounts and if you want to play free you have to extract all your non-trial skills!) but they can't train skills any more. To train skills after the first 30 days you either have to sub or buy skill packets.
I imagine that would get a lot more people playing eve -- I know several people who I could get to log in once or twice a month on that basis and just have some fun but who don't want to pay their sub any more. It's a multi-player game so more people in the game makes it better for everyone, making it more likely that people will enjoy it and spend money. I bet there are rather a lot of old eve players who would dip in once a month if they could do so for free.
I wonder if they actually want to go this way but at some point someone in a suit said "you can't do that until you can demonstrate we can make back the lost subscription money by selling these other things". So now they're trying to find ways to sell things for AUR to prove that it will work. We had skins and cosmetic items which, IMO, were quite highly priced for a game which a lot of customers already pay multiple subs for but I have no idea how many of these get sold. Now we finally have an actually useful item that can only be purchased for Aurum and we'll get so see how that changes things. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2068
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 11:12:55 -
[963] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:If the price falls below 0.25*PLEX+extractor it suddenly becomes stupid to stay subscribed while not playing. You simply lose money and you don't have to be very smart to notice that. ... I doubt that there are enought RL rich guys with OCD that will just trow all their money at EVE to get their chars to max SP to compensate for all the negative effects this may have. The price would have to fall below 0.25*PLEX, not 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price, since a skill packet is worth about a quarter month of training. This is (unfortunately) an argument for a higher price of the extractor... If I had to take a guess, then I would say that the average EVE player is both older and more affluent than the average gamer. I'm thinking more tech professional than freshman here... And even if that were not true now, then it is still entirely thinkable that CCP has decided to pitch this niche game at this niche audience in the long run. It's not a bad niche to go for. The first few "computer game" generations are still in the market, and they are approaching the "wealthy" stage of life (a decade or two in employment, but before retirement). You are of course right, it's 0.25*PLEX. So there is a window which grows if the extractor is more expensive.
Well we can only speculate about the potential there is for EVE with such players. Star citizen has without a doubt demonstrated that they are there and that you can milk them. I am not sure if EVE will attract them as well.
Anyway, I voiced my concerns here and in the old thread. It just baffles me that CCP is not posting in any of the two threads. It's like there is no interest in talking to the community about this topic. Maybe even the devs are not completely behind this, not sure what to think about that.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 11:25:41 -
[964] - Quote
Morkan Damosty wrote:
So I really think itGÇÖs a lot of noise for nothing at all.
Sorry i cut away most of the dribble you wrote
in 2011 after the monocle-gate crap ($60 for a monocle) and Jita was burning. CCPGäó said that only vanity items would be sold via the New Eden Store, the skill injector is a bit more than a vanity item.
With the amount of injectors required to go from say 5m sp to 200m sp, i am sure CCPGäó will recover the cost of their new hardware http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/ and much more this way.
I would also like to see more CCPGäó employee's participating in this thread, since this is a major game changer, but as usual they are nowhere to be seen.
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1924
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 11:30:35 -
[965] - Quote
One point that occurred to me earlier: This is making ISK for absolutely no risk at all: Set up an alt in Jita/Dixie/hub of your choice, plug in +5's and remap to max on two attributes, train/extract rinse repeat. sell on the market. At absolutely no point int this cycle is the SP farm character at any risk in any way.
So much for risk vs. reward |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 11:48:08 -
[966] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:One point that occurred to me earlier: This is making ISK for absolutely no risk at all: Set up an alt in Jita/Dixie/hub of your choice, plug in +5's and remap to max on two attributes, train/extract rinse repeat. sell on the market. At absolutely no point int this cycle is the SP farm character at any risk in any way.
So much for risk vs. reward
Well there is some risk -- the risk that any trader has. What you're describing has a reasonably high upfront cost that you're gambling you'll be able to make back.
You could buy your PLEX, train the character, extract the skillpoints and the market could crash so you can't sell them back for the PLEX cost. That might happen because the PLEX cost goes up so much that the skillpacks cost more than people will pay or because so many people do this that the price of skillpacks hits a floor so it takes years to make back the cost of getting those alts to the 5M skillpoints they need to have before they can start producing. Or it might just be that you're competing against people ripping from an old alt who don't have the cost of actually training new skills that you do.
Not all risk is the risk of getting blown up.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1924
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 12:08:49 -
[967] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:One point that occurred to me earlier: This is making ISK for absolutely no risk at all: Set up an alt in Jita/Dixie/hub of your choice, plug in +5's and remap to max on two attributes, train/extract rinse repeat. sell on the market. At absolutely no point int this cycle is the SP farm character at any risk in any way.
So much for risk vs. reward Well there is some risk -- the risk that any trader has. What you're describing has a reasonably high upfront cost that you're gambling you'll be able to make back. You could buy your PLEX, train the character, extract the skillpoints and the market could crash so you can't sell them back for the PLEX cost. That might happen because the PLEX cost goes up so much that the skillpacks cost more than people will pay or because so many people do this that the price of skillpacks hits a floor so it takes years to make back the cost of getting those alts to the 5M skillpoints they need to have before they can start producing. Or it might just be that you're competing against people ripping from an old alt who don't have the cost of actually training new skills that you do. Not all risk is the risk of getting blown up.
On the assumption that 4 skill packs costs more than PLEX+extractors of course, otherwise why would anyone do it? |
Zeddrick Anthar
Overheat Everything and CHARGE
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 13:03:02 -
[968] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
On the assumption that 4 skill packs costs more than PLEX+extractors of course, otherwise why would anyone do it?
Because they have one or more characters they don't use any more with tens of millions of SP and they want to have tens of billions of ISK instead of those SP. Their only cost would be extractors so the wouldn't have to sell for above the 1/4 PLEX cost. With PLEX as it is now then why wouldn't they of course but what if PLEX cost 4 billion ISK?
|
Memphis Baas
977
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 13:37:48 -
[969] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:It just baffles me that CCP is not posting in any of the two threads. It's like there is no interest in talking to the community about this topic. Maybe even the devs are not completely behind this, not sure what to think about that.
The last time they posted a reply to a controversial thread, it was the SKINs mega-thread, and they said (paraphrased): "We've had an internal meeting to discuss all your feedback, and every dev at the meeting was in agreement." Which was an unfinished statement (WTF did you agree?), that turned out to mean "we're going ahead anyway" when they released the SKINs as originally designed.
Devs replying to threads is bad for CCP. CCP Darwin posted some of his own comments in various threads and was immediately attacked; all we need is a face to lay all the anger and blame on. They have to decide what the official reply is, then they have to have it formatted by their PR person, then it will be posted as a dev blog of some sort. I really doubt you'll see a reply in this thread... maybe, if there is one, it'll be CCP Falcon as it's his job to tell us whatever the official statement is (even if it's a lie or whatever).
Do you see what I mean? |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 14:30:35 -
[970] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:My biggest issue with injectors is I find them immersion breaking. I can't think of a plausible (even fantasy plausible) reason why skills would be interchangeable in this way. I can't see a way for one person to suddenly forget how to fly Covert Ops, and thereby impart the ability to fly Covert Ops to someone else. How about if it requires podding: currently, podding involves "saving" the connections and patterns of all the neurons in your brain in the form of instructions, so that the medical clone's brain can be rearranged to be identical to yours, and then you wake up in the medical clone body and continue as you were. So for your capability to fly Covert Ops ships, how about they put the neuron patterns for that to a disk and no longer apply these patterns to your clone; you forget how to fly Covert Ops. Then the buyer goes to a medical facility and they remodel his brain a bit according to the instructions on the disk, and voila he suddenly knows Covert Ops, like Neo in the Matrix. Everybody just has to get podded for it to satisfy your "immersion" needs (thanks for that, btw, especially the people with implants will be really happy to give up their implants for your immersion satisfaction).
This assumes quite a lot of compatibility between different pod pilots' brains, and how they map. But this is is sci fi. Why not?
However other custom cloning options, such as having jump clones, require skills. If infomorph psychology limits your number of jump clones, then some other skill could limit your number of Skill Injector uses per day/month or something.
But I suppose a skill limitation would also be putting a limitation on real world profits. It's rarely a good idea to tell a customer "Sorry. You can't buy and use that today. Your character doesn't have the right in game skill requirement."
|
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3150
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:18:19 -
[971] - Quote
Dear Zozoll, so Titans from day one then?
...It's rarely a good idea to tell a customer, "Sorry. You can't buy and use that today. Your character doesn't have the right in game skill requirement."
Thought not...
This is not a signature.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:20:57 -
[972] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Zozoll, so Titans from day one then?
...It's rarely a good idea to tell a customer, "Sorry. You can't buy and use that today. Your character doesn't have the right in game skill requirement."
Thought not... whats the difference between buying enough skill points to use a titan
and buying a titan pilot. other than the fact you can choose your own name, and appearance.
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:25:45 -
[973] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote: whats the difference between buying enough skill points to use a titan
and buying a titan pilot. other than the fact you can choose your own name, and appearance.
THE DIFFERENCE IS (as I am weary of pointing out) IS THIS:
As things stand - although you can buy a titan pilot from the market - it still takes months to PRODUCE one.
It may be a fast upgrade for you - but it is not possible to make more titan pilots quickly.
Once SP trading is started, if you are an alliance with trillions of isk, you can start farming SP in parallel, so you can vastly reduce the time needed to PRODUCE (note PRODUCE - not OBTAIN) a titan pilot.
This will give a serious advantage to people with large wallets - be they ISK or dollars.
What is SO hard to grasp about this? |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:32:15 -
[974] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote: whats the difference between buying enough skill points to use a titan
and buying a titan pilot. other than the fact you can choose your own name, and appearance.
THE DIFFERENCE IS (as I am weary of pointing out) IS THIS: As things stand - although you can buy a titan pilot from the market - it still takes months to PRODUCE one. It may be a fast upgrade for you - but it is not possible to make more titan pilots quickly. Once SP trading is started, if you are an alliance with trillions of isk, you can start farming SP in parallel, so you can vastly reduce the time needed to PRODUCE (note PRODUCE - not OBTAIN) a titan pilot. This will give a serious advantage to people with large wallets - be they ISK or dollars. What is SO hard to grasp about this? except that if you have a large wallet, theres already freakin tons of pilots for sale. farming multiple sp in parallel costs more plex, and time, and the sp you can transfer is ALOT less than you traded (so you turn 5mill sp into...what 1mill? less?)
so in the end, seeing as how there currently is NO SET PRICE for SP, its probably safe to assume that if someone sells 1mill SP, it will cost as much as a 5mill SP character seeing as how it cost them 5mill SP to make that 1mill SP.
so the price to produce titan pilots, will in the end be more expensive than browsing the character bazaar an buying any of the titan pilots there (i just did a quick check. i counted 35 titan pilots in the first 15 pages.
so yes, if you have a big wallet you can produce alot of titan pilots.... or you can buy MORE pre made ones for alot less.
your assuming the market price for SP will be extremely cheap. before anyone has even seen how much it costs. i'm currently betting that 1mill SP will cost around 4b (aka the normal price for a 5mill SP captain) |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:46:12 -
[975] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote: whats the difference between buying enough skill points to use a titan
and buying a titan pilot. other than the fact you can choose your own name, and appearance.
THE DIFFERENCE IS (as I am weary of pointing out) IS THIS: As things stand - although you can buy a titan pilot from the market - it still takes months to PRODUCE one. It may be a fast upgrade for you - but it is not possible to make more titan pilots quickly. Once SP trading is started, if you are an alliance with trillions of isk, you can start farming SP in parallel, so you can vastly reduce the time needed to PRODUCE (note PRODUCE - not OBTAIN) a titan pilot. This will give a serious advantage to people with large wallets - be they ISK or dollars. What is SO hard to grasp about this?
If someone is willing to waste their isk making a titan pilot as opposed to just buying one on the forums, then why shouldn't they? A Made Titan pilot will be grossly over priced since there isn't AUR tied to every 500k sp on a titan pilot sold on the forums. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:48:02 -
[976] - Quote
malaka katsika wrote:
If someone is willing to waste their isk making a titan pilot as opposed to just buying one on the forums, then why shouldn't they? A Made Titan pilot will be grossly over priced since there isn't AUR tied to every 500k sp on a titan pilot sold on the forums.
I responded to someone who used the titan pilot as an example. The same applies to any other ship or skill.
|
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 15:53:46 -
[977] - Quote
But why is it wrong though? Because it's instant? Someone will have to take the time to train that SP that's being sold so get over it.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3359
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 16:01:06 -
[978] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote: But I suppose a skill limitation would also be putting a limitation on real world profits. It's rarely a good idea to tell a customer "Sorry. You can't buy and use that today. Your character doesn't have the right in game skill requirement."
Because NO RPG has any kind of requirements on items, right?
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 16:09:11 -
[979] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote: I responded to someone who used the titan pilot as an example. The same applies to any other ship or skill.
try to think about it not from an experienced player's perspective
but from a new player.
we get into the game, we get the basic stuff......and then we have 2 weeks of NOTHING until we can use more ships.
2 weeks PER ship. (cov ops, t3 destroyers, mining barge) and thats not even including all of the skills needed to make them useful (like covert ops, or basic weapon skills)
those 2 weeks are a major reason its hard to get into the game, as people leave cause they get bored w8ing.
with skill points to buy, i can spend my time mining in venture, while using that ore to sell for isk, to buy skill points, to make the 2 weeks turn into 5 days.
and thus, i'm being encouraged to PLAY.
sure from an experienced player who already has access to basically all the non capital ships, it can be viewed as pay to win because your just speeding up your path to the capitals. but thats why people with high total skill poitns get LESS from these.
this change is mostly to encourage new players to pay to speed up their skill training and thus get into the game.
so instead of having to w8 2 weeks to get into a cov ops group. i can spend 5 days mining to increases the training time, and get into it alot faster, which increases the chances of me stayign in EVE
Pros of this change +more Plex sold due to people making alts to farm SP (game time, dual training time) +encouraging people to play to speed up their skill training. instead of leaving for weeks +favorable to low skill point players to help them get the basic skills needed to use ships effectively. +gives long time players a new revenue stream
Cons of this change -that 100mill SP + character can train skills a TINY bit faster than before (but having to pay as much as lower skill pilots for significantly less SP per isk.)
this reduces the total ammount of SP in game, while increases the total amount of SP being used by active players while increasing profit for CCP while encouraging people to be more ative.
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Because NO RPG has any kind of requirements on items, right?
true, but unlike RPGs where you need to play to get the requirements for those items
in EVE, the only thing u can do right now is to w8. nothing u can do to speed it up.
until now |
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 16:23:19 -
[980] - Quote
malaka katsika wrote:But why is it wrong though? Because it's instant? Someone will have to take the time to train that SP that's being sold so get over it.
Except now we will have farm alts for this purpose.
Before having multiple accounts allowed you to have multiple specialized characters.
Now having multiple accounts allows you to farm SP and make your main a god regardless of when you started. |
|
David Semris
House Semris
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 16:23:48 -
[981] - Quote
malaka katsika wrote:But why is it wrong though? Because it's instant? Someone will have to take the time to train that SP that's being sold so get over it.
As I see it, you play multiplayer game to interact with other players. In this environment I want to feel some form of accomplishments and as is natural, I want to compete with others in some way (preferably successfully or I will eventually get irritated). If I didn-¦t want this, I would switch to similar single player game. For this I need a fair environment - the closer it gets to that ideal the better.
Now if I-¦m not really interested in PvP for several reasons how can I feel any kind of accomplishment if I can buy everything for Euro. Even if I don-¦t do it and others do, it affects me in MMO environment. How can I compete with that? And do I really want to? Would it accomplish anything?
I would prefer EVE to have no plex and no multiboxing... But... It was there when I signed up... This latest change kills the last interesting thing in the game in the sense mentioned above. I can just take my wallet and meh... No development, no sense of achievement, unfair for competing. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 16:36:51 -
[982] - Quote
Stating the injector cost as 0.25*PLEX+extractor is misleading. In fact because players can use in-game assets to purchase items, even game time, then the use of ISK or PLEX in any calculation automatically makes it wrong.
The cost depends on how they were purchased. The actual injector price will vary widely depending on your wealth in game.
Most expensive and cheapest:
- Someone who buys a $20 PLEX to play, $20 PLEX to multi-train and a $20 AURUM packet to get (say 3) extractors:
Injector = $60/3 or $20 each
- Someone who pays for their account with in-game ISK and has enough spare ISK to buy an injector in which case:
Injector= $0
Injectors, just like PLEX, costs someone real money and in the same way every additional player using ISK to play a "free month" inflates the price of PLEX, each injector consumed by players who do not use "real money" to create it will inflate the price of PLEX.
Moderate PLEX inflation is good for CCP , higher the price at market the more players buy a months play time. Too much inflation and players start to leave - one of the dangers of using the free to play model over subscription.
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
624
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 17:53:50 -
[983] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Too much inflation and players start to leave - one of the dangers of using the free to play model over subscription. This has already been happening, esp. after in-game PLEX prices reached, and rose above, 1B ISK.
I know a fair number of players who cannot afford to pay for their sub with RL cash. Many of them have stopped playing in the past 6 months or so. They had been forced to spend an ever-increasing amount of their in-game time grinding ISK, in order to afford playing, and eventually decided that it was not worth it anymore. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3359
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 17:54:57 -
[984] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Because NO RPG has any kind of requirements on items, right?
true, but unlike RPGs where you need to play to get the requirements for those items in EVE, the only thing u can do right now is to w8. nothing u can do to speed it up. until now in other RPGs it can take hours to months to grind you way up to the next level. I have played XP based RPGs where the items were in level increments of about 5 and it could take upwards to 2 weeks to go from level 100 to level 101.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3359
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 17:55:53 -
[985] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Stating the injector cost as 0.25*PLEX+extractor is misleading. In fact because players can use in-game assets to purchase items, even game time, then the use of ISK or PLEX in any calculation automatically makes it wrong.
Because minerals I mine are free.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:01:15 -
[986] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Too much inflation and players start to leave - one of the dangers of using the free to play model over subscription. This has already been happening, esp. after in-game PLEX prices reached, and rose above, 1B ISK. I know a fair number of players who cannot afford to pay for their sub with RL cash. Many of them have stopped playing in the past 6 months or so. They had been forced to spend an ever-increasing amount of their in-game time grinding ISK, in order to afford playing, and eventually decided that it was not worth it anymore.
A single tear rolls down my cheek., as I start playing the smallest violin in the world.
And no, the cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased. The cost is .25 plex + extractor cost.
Fuckin economics, how does it work?
|
Iboku Kaeane
Gazzers
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:07:27 -
[987] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:As for the idea itself I remain completely neutral. I'll have no need to use any of it and I have nothing I want to part with for isk.
What I will react to is this eternally na+»ve notion that it 'might bring in new players'. All it will do is help veterans who actually know WTF they are doing, and it will make it even harder for new players (especially ones not willing to pay a sub AND then more money for plex or whatever) to get a foot in the door.
You bring in new players with a challenging game where innovative people can innovate, not by allowing people to feel like they can play catch up for cash. Especially when they can't.
pretty mcuh sums up my stance on the idea, i just returned to eve after a somewhat long hiatus, having tried to return a couple time sin the apst, but jsut not feeling it, due to former corp BS.
well, no matter the outcry CCP won't do **** to change course when they've developed something this far.
point is, i'llw ait and see, but if this is implemented in any way shape or form, i'm out the door faster than you can say cash-grab. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:08:44 -
[988] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Because NO RPG has any kind of requirements on items, right?
true, but unlike RPGs where you need to play to get the requirements for those items in EVE, the only thing u can do right now is to w8. nothing u can do to speed it up. until now in other RPGs it can take hours to months to grind you way up to the next level. I have played XP based RPGs where the items were in level increments of about 5 and it could take upwards to 2 weeks to go from level 100 to level 101. yes
but in those, you can get the starter gear very fast(a few hours). and then it slows down the higher u go. but it encourages you to play to get there faster.
in EVE. nothing u can do will speed it up and the starter stuff still takes days. the mid level stuff(manticore, retriever, confessor, jackdaw) takes weeks. and thats BEFORE all the supporting skills to use them
so EVE is heavily encouraging you to............not play. cause u can't speed it up.
but this encourages that. while still keeping the RPG theme of higher you go, the slower you grow. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:11:42 -
[989] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Stating the injector cost as 0.25*PLEX+extractor is misleading. In fact because players can use in-game assets to purchase items, even game time, then the use of ISK or PLEX in any calculation automatically makes it wrong. No, it isn't. And, no, it isn't.
This estimate is not for what it costs any given individual to trade an injector. It is not an estimate of what prices we will see on first introduction, not even an estimate for what we see after a couple of weeks of trading. It is a rough estimate of the balance point due to the production mechanics, basically the price you are going to see in Jita - eventually, after the initial rush is over. Depending on the size of the "available SP reserves" out there, that initial rush could take a long, long time.
But since the mechanism leads to a net reduction of SP, eventually a new injector will have to be produced "from scratch" by somebody training new SP into a character, and then syphoning that off. We know that by current game mechanics one cannot get more that about four 500k skill packets out of a month of training. So the price of an injector is necessarily going to tend to the price of a month's training divided by four, plus the cost for extraction.
Buying game time directly with real money is cheaper than buying PLEX with real money first, and then using PLEX to buy game time. But we assume that most producers of skill injectors will be using ISK to PLEX their account, rather than using real money. That's why we assume the price for a month's training can be approximated by the PLEX price. And hence we arrive at the estimate, which is perfectly sound - though probably not all that helpful in predicting what will happen in February.
I think on introduction we may well see both a drop of price below 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price due to "unwanted SP" being dumped below cost and a sharp rise in PLEX price due to people going ISK->PLEX->AUR for buying the extractors. That's a perfect buyer's market for SP if you are willing to spend real money on this... All we need then is CCP offering a PLEX and AUR sale at the time... |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2072
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:22:25 -
[990] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Stating the injector cost as 0.25*PLEX+extractor is misleading. In fact because players can use in-game assets to purchase items, even game time, then the use of ISK or PLEX in any calculation automatically makes it wrong. Please explain what difference that makes. I don't understand your objections, since we are talking about ingame assets the whole time and nothing else.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:22:27 -
[991] - Quote
so for all of you negative nancies.
instead of crying that the entire idea is bad
how about you NAME what you think is bad about it.
from what i'm seeing, the main thing you people don't like about it is people can buy them in mass to train 1 character to god level.
so instead of wasting your time saying the entire idea is bad, how about you suggest a cap for the max total number of SP before you can't use it anymore?
like once you have (spitballing a number here) 30mill total SP, you can't inject more SP. or you can't use the inject to train capital level skills.
the inject idea is mostly focused around low SP characters. so CCP might listen to that argument as it doesnt interfere with the primary audience.
see the logic behind this? best of both worlds. |
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
228
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:29:50 -
[992] - Quote
"The New Eden Store will have vanity items only." ~ After the summer of Rage.
SPs are not vanity items.
As described in the process of buying it, Aurum cannot be traded from one account to the next. So it's either flip a Plex bought ingame into Aur, or just flat buying it from Account Management Page (or vendors such as Amazon). Using Aurum to buy and sell injectors is therefore breaking YET ANOTHER promise to the customer base by CCP.
This one's a little bigger a broken mess than customizable Overview Icons, return of flavor text to Region Descriptions, expanding the NPE, repairing the infestation of bugs before piling more into the game client, etc. etc. blah.
Slow sarcastic clap to CCP. You've upped the game from obvious ignoring of your own word, to a blatant blow off of your own word. That's ballzy. I'm not cryin', I'm amazed at how long term planning has now been tossed into heavy traffic for a short term boost to the bottom line. How much have you spent and bet on a VR game that the headset starts at $600 USD? That's not quite out of Alpha, let alone survived a serious Beta stress test?
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Fredou
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:36:45 -
[993] - Quote
i have started playing this game in 2005 and i mostly renew my account every year, for a year, to keep training.
next renew is going to be in november, with this change and depending on the state of eve, i will see if i renew or not.
i do not agree with this SP exchange thing |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:42:19 -
[994] - Quote
malaka katsika wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Too much inflation and players start to leave - one of the dangers of using the free to play model over subscription. This has already been happening, esp. after in-game PLEX prices reached, and rose above, 1B ISK. I know a fair number of players who cannot afford to pay for their sub with RL cash. Many of them have stopped playing in the past 6 months or so. They had been forced to spend an ever-increasing amount of their in-game time grinding ISK, in order to afford playing, and eventually decided that it was not worth it anymore. A single tear rolls down my cheek, as I start playing the smallest violin in the world. And no, the cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased. The cost is .25 plex for the SP+ extractor cost. Fuckin economics, how does it work?
Did you buy the PLEX at the Market with ISK earned while you were playing a month subbed with a credit card ? Do you sub for 3, 6 or 12 months ? Or had you PLEX'd the month with the profits from a SMA that dropped a few billion ? Do you buy PLEX from CCP rather than Sub ? Was it a single PLEX ? A pack of 6 ? A pack of 12 ?
and ... How much did that .25 PLEX cost.... you know .... the one which cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
624
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:48:11 -
[995] - Quote
Assuming that 0.25 PLEX is a fair value for 500K SP (which is likely, given that this is how much it cost to grind up that much SP at optimal SP training), then these Skill Injectors are already going to be too expensive for most new players, even if the Skill Extractors are free.
5M SP, for example, will cost 2.5 PLEX.
In RL terms, this is approximately 45 USD (assuming you buy PLEX in a multiple pack). Is it worth paying an additional 45 USD, for a new player? Hmm... questionable, esp. since all of the "experienced" players are now telling me that additional SP does not equal "win" - ie. I'm not paying for any real advantage here.
In ISK terms, this is approximately 2.75B ISK. I do not remember being able to easily make 2.75B ISK as a new player. This requires a lot of mining or L4 missions. By the time that most new players have this much ISK in wallet, they will have already long passed the 5M SP point, by normal SP training.
The added cost of the extractor will make the cost of the injector even higher, and thus further reduce the attraction value of injectors to new players. Also, if the extractor is too expensive, then current players will be less likely to want to extract SP, resulting in fewer injectors on market (and even higher prices).
Perhaps, CCP should pay players to use Skill Extractors, ie. assign them a negative cost? If extractors cost -0.2 PLEX, then the nominal cost of a 500K SP injector would be 0.05 PLEX - a much more reasonable price for new players. LOL |
Memphis Baas
977
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 18:55:44 -
[996] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:and ... How much did that .25 PLEX cost.... you know .... the one which cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased
What they are trying to say is that "PLEX" is a variable.
They're saying that the cost will be x / 4, where X is the price of plex at the time that you're looking at it. If the going market price for PLEX in Jita is still 1 billion, then x / 4 = 250 million. If the cost of plex doubles, then x/4 = 500 million.
0.25 * PLEX is a function. f(x)=x/4. f(plex)= plex * 0.25.
Do you understand? They're trying to include all those price variables, whether you get a 6 pack or 12 pack or subscription or whatever, into one formula.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 19:03:22 -
[997] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Stating the injector cost as 0.25*PLEX+extractor is misleading. In fact because players can use in-game assets to purchase items, even game time, then the use of ISK or PLEX in any calculation automatically makes it wrong. Please explain what difference that makes. I don't understand your objections, since we are talking about ingame assets the whole time and nothing else.
It's not an objection - it's an observation
(if we guess that NEX prices are 1200 each) - I can make 1 extractor for 0.33 MTC + 1200 Aurum + what I happen to be paying to access the game at the time. If I don't want to keep the SP trained by my main then the cost is 1200 Aurum + what I pay to access the game.
Neither cost me any PLEX
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
64
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 19:10:06 -
[998] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:and ... How much did that .25 PLEX cost.... you know .... the one which cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased What they are trying to say is that "PLEX" is a variable. They're saying that the cost will be x / 4, where X is the price of plex at the time that you're looking at it. If the going market price for PLEX in Jita is still 1 billion, then x / 4 = 250 million. If the cost of plex doubles, then x/4 = 500 million. 0.25 * PLEX is a function. f(x)=x/4. f(plex)= plex * 0.25. Do you understand? They're trying to include all those price variables, whether you get a 6 pack or 12 pack or subscription or whatever, into one formula.
Do you actually have to use PLEX in the creation process?
EDIT: Subs cost for SP + AURUM cost of injector |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 19:16:59 -
[999] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:and ... How much did that .25 PLEX cost.... you know .... the one which cost doesn't depend on how it was purchased What they are trying to say is that "PLEX" is a variable. They're saying that the cost will be x / 4, where X is the price of plex at the time that you're looking at it. If the going market price for PLEX in Jita is still 1 billion, then x / 4 = 250 million. If the cost of plex doubles, then x/4 = 500 million. 0.25 * PLEX is a function. f(x)=x/4. f(plex)= plex * 0.25. Do you understand? They're trying to include all those price variables, whether you get a 6 pack or 12 pack or subscription or whatever, into one formula. Do you actually have to use PLEX in the creation process? nope https://www.themittani.com/news/skill-trading-coming-february
from what i'm reading you can either get it in the AUR store. or off the market. (when players sell it.)
PLEX doesn't seem to show up anywhere for this other than the normal subscription time, and the cost of training alts if they want "SP Farmer alts"
and in the comments. fearlesslittletoaster said I was at the round table on this at Eve Vegas, and CCP Seagull explained her overall approach to monetization in Eve. I need to get an article written, which is dependent on some other stuff so it hasn't happened yet. Suffice to say that as long as Seagull is in charge there will be no gold ammo, and no other real world money mechanic that would give a player an advantage in the game that others couldn't get without spending real money.
so this is just a non plex alternative to the character bazaar, where you can focus on your own character instead of buying someone elses character where you are forced to take their name, appearence, and rep.
price will be entirely dependant on what the playerbase decides depending on the AUR price for injector + SP price.
< 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector 5 million GÇô 50 million total skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints per injector 50 million GÇô 80 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector (Changed from 200,0000) > 80 million skillpoints = 150,000 skillpoints per injector (Changed from 50,000)
^increased by player request. |
Astralum
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 19:21:38 -
[1000] - Quote
I can see what CCP is trying there after reading some interesting commments.
This is what I think the long set strategy of CCP is:
1. Person A with way too many SP will purchase the Skill Extractors with ISK from Person B that has a low Isk income that bought the Extractor with real money
2. After getting the Skill Packet Person A extract 500k SP he doesn't need at all and sells the Skill Packet to Person B for a way higher price as he sold the Skill Extractor, maybe forcing Person B to buy a Plex
This will be the Cashcow Idea of CCP but maybe not everything about this is just colored in Red. Let's see the Green site of this Patch.
1. Person A with way too many SP that doesn't know what to skill anymore will stop the onward flowing SP river by buying an Extractor and milk the over and over skilled uselles SP to sell the Skill Packet for a good price.
2. Person B will have the chance to catch up SP with well skilled players (not to Veterans but to well skilled players)
In this case you get a long awaited longterm balance of SP and CCP gets another way to be supported in theyr long living project known as EVE ONLINE.
TO THE PPL CRYING .... no one will force you to buy any of this for real money.
Thank you for reading :) |
|
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
121
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 20:34:21 -
[1001] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Amanda Orion wrote: I responded to someone who used the titan pilot as an example. The same applies to any other ship or skill.
try to think about it not from an experienced player's perspective but from a new player. we get into the game, we get the basic stuff......and then we have 2 weeks of NOTHING until we can use more ships. 2 weeks PER ship. (cov ops, t3 destroyers, mining barge) and thats not even including all of the skills needed to make them useful (like covert ops, or basic weapon skills) those 2 weeks are a major reason its hard to get into the game, as people leave cause they get bored w8ing. with skill points to buy, i can spend my time mining in venture, while using that ore to sell for isk, to buy skill points, to make the 2 weeks turn into 5 days. and thus, i'm being encouraged to PLAY. More like encouraged to PAY. Do you really think newbies with their terrible ISK/h ratio will be able to afford skill injectors? Skill injectors will probably be a new gold item for the space rich, with inflated prices like PLEX.
If you really want to help new players, give them more start SP and a free, indestructible cerebral accelerator for the first year.
This whole skill trading feature seems like a cash grab. A few years ago CCP learned that players dont like blatant P2W (gold ammo), so they are trying a lighter, less unbalanced version of it: Pay 2 Progress Faster (than others). |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 20:40:59 -
[1002] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Amanda Orion wrote: I responded to someone who used the titan pilot as an example. The same applies to any other ship or skill.
try to think about it not from an experienced player's perspective but from a new player. we get into the game, we get the basic stuff......and then we have 2 weeks of NOTHING until we can use more ships. 2 weeks PER ship. (cov ops, t3 destroyers, mining barge) and thats not even including all of the skills needed to make them useful (like covert ops, or basic weapon skills) those 2 weeks are a major reason its hard to get into the game, as people leave cause they get bored w8ing. with skill points to buy, i can spend my time mining in venture, while using that ore to sell for isk, to buy skill points, to make the 2 weeks turn into 5 days. and thus, i'm being encouraged to PLAY. More like encouraged to PAY. Do you really think newbies with their terrible ISK/h ratio will be able to afford skill injectors? Skill injectors will probably be a new gold item for the space rich, with inflated prices like PLEX. If you really want to help new players, give them more start SP and a free, indestructible cerebral accelerator for the first year. This whole skill trading feature seems like a cash grab. A few years ago CCP learned that players dont like blatant P2W (gold ammo), so they are trying a lighter, less unbalanced version of it: Pay 2 Progress Faster (than others). no.
i've spent 2 weeks mining non stop in because its all i can do.
over those 2 weeks i've mined over 5b. after expenses i still have 4b.
now i face ANOTHER 2 weeks of mining(now in my barge) until i can use a manticore or confessor.
if i could use this 4b i have right now to make that faster. i would GLADLY do it.
but right now, the only thing i have to do is wait for it to train. and mine more and more isk that i have NOTHING to use it for.
i currently own 3 retrievers(one with each jump clone). 2 coventors. 1 procurer. 2 ventures. 1 hurricane, 1 jackdaw, 2 confessors, 3 manticores.
and of them. i can use the 6 barges and the 2 ventures.
i can't use the jackdaw, confessors, or manticores. i bought them cause i've got isk to waste. (i have the hurricane, but only so much you can do with it in a small corp)
if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
65
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 20:47:20 -
[1003] - Quote
I think CCP's intention is not so much play to win as to allow newbies buy into the next ship so that they can interact with the game and other players.
Also you will never be able to inject skills cheaper than the cost of training them.
EDIT: I may add that I don't like the system not the intention |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
121
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 20:52:58 -
[1004] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 20:55:23 -
[1005] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole.
have an orca to hold it. plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection.
that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
65
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:02:20 -
[1006] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole. have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection. that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.
The ABC ores are pretty rich in wormholes but the Angel ruined temple anomaly has a slew of high-end ore that yields more isk/hr - and it has to be scanned before someone can drop on you
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1924
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:10:59 -
[1007] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole. have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection. that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.
And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?
Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1869
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:20:10 -
[1008] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?
Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game. Career agents + SOE epic arc can be done in a couple weeks even by a new player. This leaves plenty of time to socialize and find a group to work with to earn isk. Giving players relevant reasons to earn isk motivates them to explore options. And worst case the feature can just be ignored for those not interested in raising the isk. CCP dangles PLEX in from of us now, but not everyone is biting. This is no different. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:22:57 -
[1009] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole. have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection. that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage. And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy? Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game.
ok, and when the new players have spent enough time wandering to learn the mechanics of the game. what happens when they reach that point of having nothing to do but w8 for the skill to train.
chances are they'd have some spare money by then (unless they suiciding often)
i'm not saying every new player will do this. but for those of us who get bored w8ing and begin looking for other games to occupy our time because the only thing in eve we can do is w8 for the skill to train. skill injectors are a goal for us to stay in game and do SOMETHING.
even if the player is broke. at least skill injectors provide the feeling there is something you can grind to to speed up the growth process.
cause the worst feeling in game....is the feeling that theres no reason to log on this ENTIRE WEEK because your skill wont be trained up for 9 days.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1684
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:36:08 -
[1010] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
i've spent 2 weeks mining non stop in because its all i can do.
over those 2 weeks i've mined over 5b. after expenses i still have 4b.
now i face ANOTHER 2 weeks of mining(now in my barge) until i can use a manticore or confessor.
Confirming that if you cannot fly either a manticore or a confessor, literally the only thing you can do is mine.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 22:05:05 -
[1011] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
i've spent 2 weeks mining non stop in because its all i can do.
over those 2 weeks i've mined over 5b. after expenses i still have 4b.
now i face ANOTHER 2 weeks of mining(now in my barge) until i can use a manticore or confessor.
Confirming that if you cannot fly either a manticore or a confessor, literally the only thing you can do is mine. considering i live in a wh
manticore has cov ops confessor has 2 secount to warp propulsion mode.
so both are "if people show up, get out" ships
kestrel is....its cheap and affordable. but not much use vs sleepers
hurricane is good vs sleepers, but to easy to ambush when solo. and refitting that thing, moving it to wh, is annoying. (and i'm WAITING on its gunnery skills to be trained)
i could use stratios, but i dont have skills trained to use much of it yet.....like drone skills. so i'm WAITING on that....(for now...Stratios is a drone recycler. hunting your lost drones and giving them a new home on my ships...which has also earned me 9mill since i started a day ago....yeah, i so bored i lost drone hunting) |
Dusty 3allvalve
Generic Reproductions
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 22:47:07 -
[1012] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you!
If I may interject on topic, first let me say I am pleased with the concept. I have, however, had a toon collecting dust for months that I would like to harvest before bio-recycle. The toon has way too many skills built up to just kill it. However, limitations will prevent the useful benefits of the change.
If skills (skillbooks studied to 0) cannot be deleted, and prerequisites cannot be extracted, many are going to find themselves highly disappointed. Sure there will be those who gain skills, and the market will gain it's share of unused extractors, but I'm afraid this addition to EvE is not going to help as many people as thought.
What once read that our unused skills that were earned and paid for could be reclaimed, now reads that we can skim off the top and watch the EvE wealthy collectively become further empowered.
I make no claims. These are simply my concerns. I will be anxiously awaiting more details on this matter while I shake in my boots about what I'm going to loose just after the Citadels arrive. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 22:51:08 -
[1013] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Do you actually have to use PLEX in the creation process? EDIT: Subs cost for SP + AURUM cost of injector No, but the price estimate is basically for a "SP farm" run in game (without using real money): 1. You use n PLEX to activate n toons for a month. 2. You convert m PLEX into AUR to buy the needed number of extractors. 3. You extract all the trained SP of the n toons, and sell it on the market for z ISK. Assume a PLEX price of y ISK per PLEX. Then if z>(n+m)*y, you can 4. buy n+m PLEX again at this point and 5. repeat this cycle endlessly, while making a net profit of z-(n+m)*y ISK per month.
Obviously that ignores fluctuation in the ISK price of a PLEX, station taxes, etc. But it is a ballpark estimate for a SP farm, and it makes sense to state its cost in PLEX.
|
Dusty 3allvalve
Generic Reproductions
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 23:01:31 -
[1014] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:Do you actually have to use PLEX in the creation process? EDIT: Subs cost for SP + AURUM cost of injector No, but the price estimate is basically for a "SP farm" run in game (without using real money): 1. You use n PLEX to activate n toons for a month. 2. You convert m PLEX into AUR to buy the needed number of extractors. 3. You extract all the trained SP of the n toons, and sell it on the market for z ISK. Assume a PLEX price of y ISK per PLEX. Then if z>(n+m)*y, you can 4. buy n+m PLEX again at this point and 5. repeat this cycle endlessly, while making a net profit of z-(n+m)*y ISK per month. Obviously that ignores fluctuation in the ISK price of a PLEX, station taxes, etc. But it is a ballpark estimate for a SP farm, and it makes sense to state its cost in PLEX.
Great post. I will have to look into whether I will have the means. And though it was not intended, thank you for elaborating on my last post. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
400
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 23:05:20 -
[1015] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:One of the arguments in favour of, 'skill points for cash' seems to be that some veterans feel that they have some 'useless' skill points they want to sell, or move to an alt.
I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices.
It is all part of the 'Eve is tough and choices have consequences' mantra that has been a part of Eve since well before I started in early 2007.
It would be interesting to see if any of the current CSM membership have supported this, and why.
And where this years CSM candidates stand on this issue.
With CCP Games ignoring customer feedback on this Major issue, why bother having representatives in the first place
I will not vote for the next CSM, I will not collaborate to satisfy the Greed of the Suits at this Company, this is Bullsht CCP
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games pay More to win at skill training time, now with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
158
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:20:07 -
[1016] - Quote
MiSANTHR0PE wrote: It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there)
I have never understood why that's allowable, I do own my own (small) business and if my employees used another form of communication other than what I provided to reach our clients after the first warning they would be fired, no matter how good they are/were at there job(s). I do NOT want my clients confused to where they need to go to stay informed or get accurate information, that's just bad business. |
Emperor Furiosa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:25:44 -
[1017] - Quote
Alea wrote:MiSANTHR0PE wrote: It's because CCP doesn't read their own forums & use Reddit instead. (The idea didn't go down too bad over there) I have never understood why that's allowable, I do own my own (small) business and if my employees used another form of communication other than what I provided to reach our clients after the first warning they would be fired, no matter how good they are/were at there job(s). I do NOT want my clients confused to where they need to go to stay informed or get accurate information, that's just bad business.
cuz fozz and rise have ingame player org background and used reddit much often then eve-o forums? |
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
235
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:32:29 -
[1018] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:so for all of you negative nancies.
instead of crying that the entire idea is bad
how about you NAME what you think is bad about it.
from what i'm seeing, the main thing you people don't like about it is people can buy them in mass to train 1 character to god level.
so instead of wasting your time saying the entire idea is bad, how about you suggest a cap for the max total number of SP before you can't use it anymore?
like once you have (spitballing a number here) 30mill total SP, you can't inject more SP. or you can't use the inject to train capital level skills.
the inject idea is mostly focused around low SP characters. so CCP might listen to that argument as it doesnt interfere with the primary audience.
see the logic behind this? best of both worlds.
Negative Nancy over here. Why is it bad? 1. It might not be a straight line pat 2 win, but it does short circuit the whole work for it in time and ISK building when a CC with a high limit allows Plex (flipped for ISK) and Aurum (for the injectors) anyone to be in a Marauder in a couple days, if that long. 2. Plex inflation spikes that much higher, making it that much more difficult for those that buy Plex in a Regional Market to keep their account active. I doubt I'm the only one flying on a very tight RL budget. That runs more out than this Great Idea (tm) will bring in. I've been bumbling around for not quite 2 years, Plex in that time has gone from 750M to a cool B plus change. 3. The howls from the 'bitter vet' brigade when they're perma-blopped by a bunch of R00kies in their fave hunting null systems. PvP enjoyment does get shallow when everything you have is blown from underneath your shiny new Citadel. 4. This would give WoW Wrath Babies their easy ticket in. Do you have any idea how that's going to effect the local chat of every single trade hub system???? Barrens chat, shudder..... These are not the kind of new players Eve Online needs. Hek, WoW doesn't like them that much anymore! (and there's a reason the numbers over in Bliz-land are falling... cater to the n00b, lose the the vets that keep the power running to a server) 5. Best reason this is a Very Bad Idea (c) is thus: Because it is outright breaking a promise CCP gave after learning their lesson in the Summer of Rage. If they can't as a company keep to their own rules, how dare they expect us to? Sauce for the goose theory in action.
On a side note, it's interesting how many issues I've had over the years in RL with those named Nancy.
And Sun sign Leo's.
IF! IF! SPs could only be used on below Capital level skills, there was an upper amount and that's all you can stuff in a clone's head folks, and are also verboten to skills that a Trial Account can't access, I Might back off a bit on the kvetching.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:41:15 -
[1019] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:One of the arguments in favour of, 'skill points for cash' seems to be that some veterans feel that they have some 'useless' skill points they want to sell, or move to an alt.
I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices.
It is all part of the 'Eve is tough and choices have consequences' mantra that has been a part of Eve since well before I started in early 2007.
It would be interesting to see if any of the current CSM membership have supported this, and why.
And where this years CSM candidates stand on this issue. With CCP Games ignoring customer feedback on this Major issue, why bother having representatives in the first place I will not vote for the next CSM, I will not collaborate to satisfy the Greed of the Suits at this Company, this is Bullsht CCP they not ignoring.
most people are for it.
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:so for all of you negative nancies.
instead of crying that the entire idea is bad
how about you NAME what you think is bad about it.
from what i'm seeing, the main thing you people don't like about it is people can buy them in mass to train 1 character to god level.
so instead of wasting your time saying the entire idea is bad, how about you suggest a cap for the max total number of SP before you can't use it anymore?
like once you have (spitballing a number here) 30mill total SP, you can't inject more SP. or you can't use the inject to train capital level skills.
the inject idea is mostly focused around low SP characters. so CCP might listen to that argument as it doesnt interfere with the primary audience.
see the logic behind this? best of both worlds. Negative Nancy over here. Why is it bad? 1. It might not be a straight line pat 2 win, but it does short circuit the whole work for it in time and ISK building when a CC with a high limit allows Plex (flipped for ISK) and Aurum (for the injectors) anyone to be in a Marauder in a couple days, if that long. 2. Plex inflation spikes that much higher, making it that much more difficult for those that buy Plex in a Regional Market to keep their account active. I doubt I'm the only one flying on a very tight RL budget. That runs more out than this Great Idea (tm) will bring in. I've been bumbling around for not quite 2 years, Plex in that time has gone from 750M to a cool B plus change. 3. The howls from the 'bitter vet' brigade when they're perma-blopped by a bunch of R00kies in their fave hunting null systems. PvP enjoyment does get shallow when everything you have is blown from underneath your shiny new Citadel. 4. This would give WoW Wrath Babies their easy ticket in. Do you have any idea how that's going to effect the local chat of every single trade hub system???? Barrens chat, shudder..... These are not the kind of new players Eve Online needs. Hek, WoW doesn't like them that much anymore! (and there's a reason the numbers over in Bliz-land are falling... cater to the n00b, lose the the vets that keep the power running to a server) 5. Best reason this is a Very Bad Idea (c) is thus: Because it is outright breaking a promise CCP gave after learning their lesson in the Summer of Rage. If they can't as a company keep to their own rules, how dare they expect us to? Sauce for the goose theory in action. On a side note, it's interesting how many issues I've had over the years in RL with those named Nancy. And Sun sign Leo's. IF! IF! SPs could only be used on below Capital level skills, there was an upper amount and that's all you can stuff in a clone's head folks, and are also verboten to skills that a Trial Account can't access, I Might back off a bit on the kvetching. >Jeven 1. ok but pros vs cons. pros win. and since it doesnt reach the pay to win (for reference see World of Tank's Gold Ammo) its fine. 2. will it really spike in price? keep in mind it takes 2 plex in the character bazaar. chances are this change WON'T affect the price of plex, but instead switch the flow of plex from the character bazaar to skill point injectors. as its the character bazaar that this skill injection is in competition with.
3. yes this might be so, but if a group of vets is getting killed by rookies, then the vets probably didn't learn how to play. or the rookies know how to play better. and the vets will complain anyway because other veteran players will bloop them. (but they'll go into denial and blame rookies)
now remember this, the ammount of skill point injectors available will be LARGELY up to the veteran players who supply them. so its not really that different from veteran players selling skilled characters to rookies.
4. WoW players aren't going to flood. because spreadsheets. (those who can survive speadsheets are already here)
5. it isn't actually breaking the rules. its pushing them, but not any more than the character bazaar already is.
keep in mind this does very little more than the character bazaar already offers. but it offers more flexibility at a higher price.
also, it would be MUCH cheaper for rookies to buy skilled premade characters in character bazaar, rather than make one with skill injectors
and lastly, your assuming this will spike plex prices. but if rookies buy them as much as you say, then where are the rookies getting their isk from.
as someone mentioned before, not everyone was adopted by a wh corp like me.
so those players who want to "buy skill points" will buy and sell plex. thus balancing the price. or they will buy plex and buy a character from the character bazaar
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:41:30 -
[1020] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Zozoll, so Titans from day one then?
...It's rarely a good idea to tell a customer, "Sorry. You can't buy and use that today. Your character doesn't have the right in game skill requirement."
Thought not...
Yeah. I thought about that after I had said it.
If you want casual purchases, the best way to to place no barriers,
But, if you want repeat customers, it's better to put a barrier in place so they are invested. Require a skill that has difficult prerequisites (but not super insane) before you can create injectors, and then people won't just strip out their character on a whim after they get ganked in high sec one day and feel like rage quitting.
Waiting a week or two to gain the ability to create an injector gives them time to think about it. And after waiting patiently like that I think they're more likely to convert the character (and account) into a skill farm rather than just strip down to 5.5 mil sp and then unsub.
Anyway. Anyone who's taken a business class in their life will tell you repeat customers are the holy grail of business ventures. So creating a skill req is probably the best long term option.
Perhaps a big requisite to produce them, but a small requisite to use them? (Some token 1x skill?) That way newbs can skip the 2 week gap to getting a decent frigate.
King Aires wrote:malaka katsika wrote:But why is it wrong though? Because it's instant? Someone will have to take the time to train that SP that's being sold so get over it.
Except now we will have farm alts for this purpose. Before having multiple accounts allowed you to have multiple specialized characters. Now having multiple accounts allows you to farm SP and make your main a god regardless of when you started.
I think that's the best description, in a few words, of exactly what this is going to change.
Before you could only get a god two ways: Either subbing for several years, or buying a god that someone else has already named and played for years.
That's going to be a slap in the face for some players who waited 7 years or more to get where they are.
However, this problem is probably the #1 reason Eve fails to retain new players. You start an account and suddenly realize it's going to be over 2 years before your new online persona can do anything worthwhile. |
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:42:50 -
[1021] - Quote
the MAIN difference here for rookies is character bazaar characters tend to provide specialized characters designed for their role. thus they are deadly
skill injectors don't. so rookies who know nothing of the game will spread out the skill points and be weaker than normal players because they train the wrong things.
everything balances out in the end. plex will balance out plex and character bazaar does nothing that this doesn't.
characters that are farmed for the purpose of selling in the character bazaar
will become characters that are farmed for the purpose of harvesting skill points.
no change from what exists right now |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:45:35 -
[1022] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the MAIN difference here for rookies is character bazaar characters tend to provide specialized characters designed for their role. thus they are deadly
[b][u]characters that are farmed for the purpose of selling in the character bazaar
and i'm proof |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:49:16 -
[1023] - Quote
I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 00:57:07 -
[1024] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
characters that are farmed for the purpose of selling in the character bazaar
will become characters that are farmed for the purpose of harvesting skill points.
no change from what exists right now
A big difference is that any character, no matter how badly designed, makes an equally good farm.
There is pretty much no strategy involved. Whereas designing a good character to sell on the Bazaar takes a lot of strategy. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:02:26 -
[1025] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
characters that are farmed for the purpose of selling in the character bazaar
will become characters that are farmed for the purpose of harvesting skill points.
no change from what exists right now
A big difference is that any character, no matter how badly designed, makes an equally good farm. There is pretty much no strategy involved. Whereas designing a good character to sell on the Bazaar takes a lot of strategy.
ok.....so your point is that character bazaar is worse cause it gives rookie players who buy them stronger characters instead of making them learn?
so skill injectors are less "pay to win" than character bazaar |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:17:20 -
[1026] - Quote
My point was that the "game of designing characters to sell" is actually a game unto itself.
Skill Injectors remove the penalty for screwing up and training the wrong skills. Just scrub the wasted points off with a skill injector, and either sell it or re-inject it.
Eve is a game of consequences. Try getting the devs to change your name if you misspell "star killer" or whatever.
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:[ 4. This would give WoW Wrath Babies their easy ticket in. Do you have any idea how that's going to effect the local chat of every single trade hub system???? Barrens chat, shudder..... These are not the kind of new players Eve Online needs. Hek, WoW doesn't like them that much anymore! (and there's a reason the numbers over in Bliz-land are falling... cater to the n00b, lose the the vets that keep the power running to a server) 5. Best reason this is a Very Bad Idea (c) is thus: Because it is outright breaking a promise CCP gave after learning their lesson in the Summer of Rage. If they can't as a company keep to their own rules, how dare they expect us to? Sauce for the goose theory in action.
On a side note, it's interesting how many issues I've had over the years in RL with those named Nancy.
And Sun sign Leo's.
IF! IF! SPs could only be used on below Capital level skills, there was an upper amount and that's all you can stuff in a clone's head folks, and are also verboten to skills that a Trial Account can't access, I Might back off a bit on the kvetching.
>Jeven
There is a lot of truth to this, too.
Eve attracts mature players. You have to be pretty mature to be patient enough to wait for your character. Even the ones that do nothing but gate camp in null/low sec.
Mature people like to be around mature people. The company is half of the experience.
Stick with a mature audience and Eve might still be around in 2050, because mature people only get more mature as they age. Immature people, on the other hand, have a tendency to grow up and move on (or get even more immature, in which case they'll soon be too poor to afford to pay for their sub anyway.)
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:24:48 -
[1027] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:My point was that the "game of designing characters to sell" is actually a game unto itself.
Skill Injectors remove the penalty for screwing up and training the wrong skills. Just scrub the wasted points off with a skill injector, and either sell it or re-inject it.
Eve is a game of consequences. Try getting the devs to change your name if you misspell "star killer" or whatever.
Eve is a game of consequences.
so if you train the wrong skill, you have to pay to fix it. thus you lose for your mistake.
as you said, a game of consequences.
injector ain't free. and neither are the skill points.
cause remember. YOU LOSE MORE SKILL POINTS THAN YOU GAIN FROM INJECTORS
5mill skill points into injector. 500k come out or 400k if u have over 5mill
or 300k if u have over 50mill
or 150k if you have over 150mill
the more total skill points you have. the more you pay for mistakes. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3362
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:34:59 -
[1028] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Because NO RPG has any kind of requirements on items, right?
true, but unlike RPGs where you need to play to get the requirements for those items in EVE, the only thing u can do right now is to w8. nothing u can do to speed it up. until now in other RPGs it can take hours to months to grind you way up to the next level. I have played XP based RPGs where the items were in level increments of about 5 and it could take upwards to 2 weeks to go from level 100 to level 101. yes but in those, you can get the starter gear very fast(a few hours). and then it slows down the higher u go. but it encourages you to play to get there faster. And new players have access basic PVP gear from day one. Eve was designed to encourage you to play because you wanted to play and not to play gain access to more equipment.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:35:46 -
[1029] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Because NO RPG has any kind of requirements on items, right?
true, but unlike RPGs where you need to play to get the requirements for those items in EVE, the only thing u can do right now is to w8. nothing u can do to speed it up. until now in other RPGs it can take hours to months to grind you way up to the next level. I have played XP based RPGs where the items were in level increments of about 5 and it could take upwards to 2 weeks to go from level 100 to level 101. yes but in those, you can get the starter gear very fast(a few hours). and then it slows down the higher u go. but it encourages you to play to get there faster. And new players have access basic PVP gear from day one. Eve was designed to encourage you to play because you wanted to play and not to play gain access to more equipment. go PvP in what your given to start with
guarentee you you will lose |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3362
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:38:34 -
[1030] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote: go PvP in what your given to start with
guarentee you you will lose
you will learn, and that is 100x more important than winning from day one.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:42:51 -
[1031] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote: go PvP in what your given to start with
guarentee you you will lose
you will learn, and that is 100x more important than winning from day one.
you know what else is important? having trained skills so you can fight in PvP
rather than low support skills so your gun does minimal dmg, or short range, or fail to track.
or can only equip weak drones
you need SP for better ships(ibis is NOT a good ship for PvP), you need SP to use better weapons, you need SP to use thsoe weapons more effectively. you need SP to make your ship stronger. you need SP to use more drones, stronger drones. etc
wow. its as if SP matters. alot.
character bazaar provides trained characters, but sometimes you want to train your own character. either due to it being important to you, or it being more to your liking than buying a new character on character bazaar
and thats before we get into exploration, mining, survival, and industrial |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3362
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 01:51:33 -
[1032] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote: go PvP in what your given to start with
guarentee you you will lose
you will learn, and that is 100x more important than winning from day one. you know what else is important? having trained skills so you can fight in PvP rather than low support skills so your gun does minimal dmg, or short range, or fail to track. or can only equip weak drones You can fight with basic skills, you continue to ignore this because of "SP matters" mentality. noobs with basic skills can help in PVP, noobs in PVP can fight and learn against other noobs in PVP. Vets who care about the future of the game will help to train noobs in basic PVP with the equipment that is available to them rather that telling them "you must be this tall to ride". Shortcutting these learning experience by injecting SP and then expecting the SP to carry you in PVP is a foolish thought that will end up frustrating players who are new to the game which usually involves them leaving. The learning curve graph will still stand ture with the excepting of an unpresented feeling of capabilities due to buying there way up.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:00:20 -
[1033] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote: go PvP in what your given to start with
guarentee you you will lose
you will learn, and that is 100x more important than winning from day one. you know what else is important? having trained skills so you can fight in PvP rather than low support skills so your gun does minimal dmg, or short range, or fail to track. or can only equip weak drones You can fight with basic skills, you continue to ignore this because of "SP matters" mentality. noobs with basic skills can help in PVP, noobs in PVP can fight and learn against other noobs in PVP. Vets who care about the future of the game will help to train noobs in basic PVP with the equipment that is available to them rather that telling them "you must be this tall to ride". Shortcutting these learning experience by injecting SP and then expecting the SP to carry you in PVP is a foolish thought that will end up frustrating players who are new to the game which usually involves them leaving. The learning curve graph will still stand ture with the excepting of an unpresented feeling of capabilities due to buying there way up. because there is a strict noob vs noob rule for pvp
vet players totally don't spend alot of time targeting various playrs including noob because veterans TOTALLY don't have isk to spare.
why, i bet no player has ever had so much money they ganked people in....oh idk...JITA despite gaining nothing for themselves.
SP is important. but SP isn't experience
experience is something you get on your own. but its something that is worthless unless you have hte SP to USE CRAP
so you can cry and whine all you want about skill injectors being unfair
but character bazaar makes u look like an idiot |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
339
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:03:09 -
[1034] - Quote
Charlie Corday wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Charlie Corday wrote:Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.
Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve. Constant vigilance with every character in the game without the exception... ...does it not seem odd to anyone else in this game that this isn't the default state for any character you don't know? Eh, does it take very long for characters to get a cyno trained nowadays I guess maybe you feel safe in highsec~~~ ??? Not that you might not get tackled anyway and then from the next system they jump in, or log on. The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.
CCP no longer have the ability to see this. Greed has completely clouded their better judgement and now it's like they've become possess with the all mighty dollar. But alas they just don't get it that this new money faucet feature is just a mirage that is gonna fade once the dust clears, leaving nothing but a desolate wasteland.
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:11:11 -
[1035] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
injector ain't free. and neither are the skill points.
cause remember. YOU LOSE MORE SKILL POINTS THAN YOU GAIN FROM INJECTORS
5mill skill points into injector. 500k come out or 400k if u have over 5mill
or 300k if u have over 50mill
or 150k if you have over 150mill
but it costs 5mill SP to make the injector regardless of how much u get out. so CONSEQUENCES
the more total skill points you have. the more you pay for mistakes.
I'm pretty sure that isn't the way it works. (Although I wish it were!)
You have to have 5.5 mil sp to create injectors, but creating one only costs 500k sp.
This is from the dev blog itself:
"dev blog" wrote: You mark skills for extraction until there are 500,000 skillpoints worth marked. Once youGÇÖre happy with the skills you have chosen, you hit Accept. Now you will have a Skill Injector in your item hangar and the Skill Extractor you used will be gone, along with the 500,000 skillpoints.
So you lose 500k to get 500k. I agree that is silly. You should not get quite as much as you lose.
[/quote]
Quote: and "mature" audiences have money for this immature (aka young) don't due to lack of jobs.
A lot of them do. They won't in a few years, but they do now.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3362
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:14:23 -
[1036] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:You can fight with basic skills, you continue to ignore this because of "SP matters" mentality. noobs with basic skills can help in PVP, noobs in PVP can fight and learn against other noobs in PVP. Vets who care about the future of the game will help to train noobs in basic PVP with the equipment that is available to them rather that telling them "you must be this tall to ride". Shortcutting these learning experience by injecting SP and then expecting the SP to carry you in PVP is a foolish thought that will end up frustrating players who are new to the game which usually involves them leaving. The learning curve graph will still stand ture with the excepting of an unpresented feeling of capabilities due to buying there way up. because there is a strict noob vs noob rule for pvp vet players totally don't spend alot of time targeting various playrs including noob because veterans TOTALLY don't have isk to spare. why, i bet no player has ever had so much money they ganked people in....oh idk...JITA despite gaining nothing for themselves. and injecting SP will have absolutely no impact on this kind of thing occurring, none. time in game will, but that is now lessened by injecting SP.
Noobs used to be able to tell who might have similar combat capabilities based on character age but not now (unless CCP decides to show injected SP to everyone).
Newer players who don't want to pay for SP will be at a significant disadvantage to those who will, reminds me of IOS games where you can purchase speed ups to gain an advantage to those who don't.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:15:42 -
[1037] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
injector ain't free. and neither are the skill points.
cause remember. YOU LOSE MORE SKILL POINTS THAN YOU GAIN FROM INJECTORS
5mill skill points into injector. 500k come out or 400k if u have over 5mill
or 300k if u have over 50mill
or 150k if you have over 150mill
but it costs 5mill SP to make the injector regardless of how much u get out. so CONSEQUENCES
the more total skill points you have. the more you pay for mistakes.
I'm pretty sure that isn't the way it works. (Although I wish it were!) You have to have 5.5 mil sp to create injectors, but creating one only costs 500k sp. This is from the dev blog itself: "dev blog" wrote: You mark skills for extraction until there are 500,000 skillpoints worth marked. Once youGÇÖre happy with the skills you have chosen, you hit Accept. Now you will have a Skill Injector in your item hangar and the Skill Extractor you used will be gone, along with the 500,000 skillpoints.
So you lose 500k to get 500k. I agree that is silly. You should not get quite as much as you lose.
Quote: and "mature" audiences have money for this immature (aka young) don't due to lack of jobs.
A lot of them do. They won't in a few years, but they do now.
[/quote]
close. but no. the 500k u looking at is how you put it in. and if you have over 5mill you don't get 500k from injectors. u get 400k
-----taken from the mittani, source: https://www.themittani.com/news/skill-trading-coming-february ------
"IGÇÖm sure you want to know about pricing for Extractors..."
On January 18, CCP Rise wrote a new dev blog covering the finer details of the skillpoint trading feature that will arrive in the February patch. The recent post was a follow-on to the October 15 dev blog that laid out the initial ideas for skill point trading in New Eden. The details from the recent dev blog are basically the same as the first dev blog, but some adjustments have been made to accommodate high skillpoint players. Here are some of the basics and highlights of the changes.
TO USE SKILL POINTS
A skill injector item is required: a 'Transneural Skill Packet (TSP)GÇÖ Players can then sell their TSP on the EVE market for ISK, just like any other item Once bought, it can be activated from the hangar The item will be consumed, and the skillpoints will be added to the unallocated pool HOW MANY SKILLPOINTS DO I GET PER TSP?
The injector items will give a different amount of skillpoints depending on what your characterGÇÖs skillpoint total is when you use the item, according to the following scale:
< 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector 5 million GÇô 50 million total skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints per injector 50 million GÇô 80 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector (Changed from 200,0000) > 80 million skillpoints = 150,000 skillpoints per injector (Changed from 50,000)
CCP Rise stated that there will be some improvements to the user interface for allocating skillpoints, and that a screenshot will soon be made available.
WHAT IF I WANT TO SELL SP?
You must have a minimum of 5 million skillpoints A skill extractor, called a 'Transneural Skill Extractor (TSE)', is used The TSE is available in the New Eden Store for AUR, or it can be bought on the EVE market from other players Activate the TSE, and the skillpoint extraction window will appear. (Note: It is still a work in progress)
"You mark skills for extraction until there are 500,000 skillpoints worth marked. Once youGÇÖre happy with the skills you have chosen, you hit Accept. Now you will have a Skill Injector in your item hangar and the Skill Extractor you used will be gone, along with the 500,000 skillpoints."
THE COST
The question on everyone's minds! CCP Rise stated, "Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints..." With this said, as this entire process requires players to use real currency to buy the AUR to buy the TSE, these items will be pretty pricey in-game. Could they reach the ISK levels of the Multiple Character Training Certificate? How much AUR will these TSEs cost?
CCP Rise is playing it pretty close to the chest, but once an AUR value is known, it will be easy to work out the ISK value of TSEs, and the skillpoint packets that follow. The final cost of TSEs will be announced "a little closer to release time." |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
339
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:26:10 -
[1038] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine.
Yes scrubs like you can have fun paying Eve buttloads of cash while the original Eve players leave this game to play something more worthwhile. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:29:44 -
[1039] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:while the original Eve players leave this game Oh my, vague unsubbing threats... made on the behalf of other people!!
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:33:30 -
[1040] - Quote
wait, are we unsubbing or not. I can never tell with these things.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
Memphis Baas
978
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:37:35 -
[1041] - Quote
Not yet, we're only at page 53, we're still in the build-up phase of the plot.
EDIT: Gregor Parud actually Doomheim'ed on pg. 28(?), sad. But I don't think anybody else did anything other than post. EDIT2: (the one early death to prove things are serious). |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:39:22 -
[1042] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine. Yes scrubs like you can have fun paying Eve buttloads of cash while the original Eve players leave this game to play something more worthwhile. doom sayer
peopel say that every change
and game still here
remember the titan dooms day nerf? or the introduction of t3 crusiers or basically every change
people say the games gone to far and is gonna die.
and it doesn't.
if you think giving people the ability to transfer SP is going to massacre the game.....your delusional.
i might be new in game, but i've payed attention to EVE forums and news for a long time. not to mention half a dozen other game forums
every time theres a change. people say everyone will leave.
the only time i've actually see a game die is cause the devs DIDN'T do anything (Archeage)
hell even runescape survived the removal of the wilderness(and that was extreme. imagine removing null sec.) |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
159
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:46:57 -
[1043] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine. Yes scrubs like you can have fun paying Eve buttloads of cash while the original Eve players leave this game to play something more worthwhile.
I'm not leaving (yet) but I feel HTFU will someday be removed from Eve all together, then we will be flooded by even more WoW dropouts wanting to play the new and improved Eve on training wheels.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
339
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:53:13 -
[1044] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Got a question who is ready and how much you are going to charge for 500k of SPs ? Not knowing thr extractor's price yet would like to see how much 1 SP price tag would be.
My guess is that the extractors won't cost that much but the injectors will. SP farmers are gonna make a killing selling their SP to instant gratifying scrubs. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
341
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:55:45 -
[1045] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:wait, are we unsubbing or not. I can never tell with these things. I just resubbed all my accounts 1 week before CCP released this Dev blog. I feel like I've been scammed by CCP.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3362
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:57:10 -
[1046] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Not yet, we're only at page 53, we're still in the build-up phase of the plot.
EDIT: Gregor Parud actually Doomheim'ed on pg. 28(?), sad. But I don't think anybody else did anything other than post. EDIT2: (the one early death to prove things are serious). Already canceled my subs, I just have some time left before they fully run out so figure I would post my thoughts but starting to not even care enough to do that any more.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Soltys
54
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:57:39 -
[1047] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Not yet, we're only at page 53, we're still in the build-up phase of the plot.
EDIT: Gregor Parud actually Doomheim'ed on pg. 28(?), sad. But I don't think anybody else did anything other than post. EDIT2: (the one early death to prove things are serious).
Did he really ? I have my doubts =)
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:59:06 -
[1048] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Rain6637 wrote:wait, are we unsubbing or not. I can never tell with these things. I just resubbed all my accounts 1 week before CCP released this Dev blog. I feel like I've been scammed by CCP. Did you ignore the prior blog on the same subject? Or just assume it wouldn't go forward? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 02:59:24 -
[1049] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote: Gregor Parud actually Doomheim'ed on pg. 28(?), sad. But I don't think anybody else did anything other than post.
hooooo ****
I caught up on his conversation after finding his posts. It was regarding the generic SP nature of extractors, and I kind of agree. It might be a bit too edgy for anyone's tastes, but I would agree to extractors whose SP is specific to a skill. So there would be incentive for someone to remap to drone skills or leadership and sell those SP.
Remap-specific SP, even. So like, Intel-Mem extractors would be less valuable than whatever drone and leadership skills are. It would probably look like, in order of lowest value to highest:
Intel / Mem Per / Will Will / Per Mem / Intel
etc.
It would be interesting to see the demand versus remap premium balance out. Trade skills, for example, would be one of those awkward remaps, but the demand would also be slightly lower than Drone or Leadership skills.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
341
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:09:20 -
[1050] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Rain6637 wrote:wait, are we unsubbing or not. I can never tell with these things. I just resubbed all my accounts 1 week before CCP released this Dev blog. I feel like I've been scammed by CCP. Did you ignore the prior blog on the same subject? Or just assume it wouldn't go forward?
Since the feedback was so negative and the lack of response by CCP, I thought they would back out of it. Looks like I overestimated CCPs intellectual capabilities.
Since my accounts are paid for (for a little while longer), I intend on abusing the hell out this garbage in ways CCP never imagined to show them the error of their ways. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:15:49 -
[1051] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Since the feedback was so negative and the lack of response by CCP, I thought they would back out of it. Looks like I overestimated CCPs intellectual capabilities.
Since my accounts are paid for (for a little while longer), I intend on abusing the hell out this garbage in ways CCP never imagined. Personally I'd think that if I disagreed with a controversial proposal without clear word on the decision I would have held back or giving them more money. Those truly outraged and opposed would actually stand out then rather than being indistinguishable from all the toothless quit posts of changes past.
Or worse having their resubs being interpreted as tolerance or worse endorsement of the idea.
Good luck on abuses beyond imagination. The only ones that might actually do harm on any notable scale are the ones that give them money.
|
Memphis Baas
979
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:20:50 -
[1052] - Quote
I want it motion-capture animated, so I can watch myself in the mirror in the captain HQ, sucking skills / grey matter out of my head. Look in the mirror, get an overlay of my brain, with false color maps indicating where the skills are actually stored, and then use the mouse to position the extractor over the spot, and push it in. Number of skillpoints extracted depending on how accurate I was over the actual spot.
They have a simple system. Step 1, Step 2, done. You guys keep asking to complicate it, because immersion, curiosity, or just because. I don't understand it. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13423
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:25:21 -
[1053] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against.
PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk, so it's a necessary evil. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do).
The skill point thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company.
It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is.
CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
13
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:33:15 -
[1054] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
close. but no. the 500k u looking at is how you put it in. and if you have over 5mill you don't get 500k from injectors. u get 400k
Oh! I see!
I hadn't looked closely enough. I was somehow thinking the threshold to start getting diminished returns was higher than 5 mil SP.
You may soon get me to be sold on this!
I'll tell you grand plan right now, if this all happens the way it has been described, with extractors costing a low Aur price.
Step 1 : I'll go on the character bazaar and buy any four characters that have 5 mill or more SP and at least one remap.
Step 2: I'll sub 4 new accounts, and have the characters transferred there.
Step 3: Remap them all to Intelligence (first) and Memory (second).
Step 4: Train them to cybernetics V if they're not already there.
Step 5: Buy 2 improved implants each. No need to bother buying any more than that, because those two attributes are the only two they will ever use for the rest of their existence.
Step 6: Train them as pure research and industry alts. And gradually remove all non-related skills. Then every month they'll train into a new Int/Memory skill, and Every month they'll extract it and give it to my main (or another alt.)
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
341
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:33:48 -
[1055] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with. The skill point trading thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.
Good to know that you're a true Eve player afterall, well said.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:44:18 -
[1056] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk, so it's a necessary evil. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do). No, PLEX didn't need to happen. Yes, it has a positive aspect of giving a legitimate avenue for real money that may have been spent in less safe avenues to obtain isk, but you can be certain it exasperated the act of buying in game currency through removing consequences when going through a specified party, CCP themselves, for a little extra cash on the sub payment.
Some may chose to see it as altruistic and necessary, I don't because it isn't really either despite having positive aspects. It's a symbiotic system that allows CCP to make more cash from the same service they already sell while filling a service they made illegal for their competitors.
Jenn aSide wrote:The skill point thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. I won't disagree that it has limits, I will fully disagree that the limits it creates are the pillars of some sort of health or positive consequence for the game. Mainly because, with the exception of a money cycle this can create all the gameplay symptoms of the system, such as SP inequivalence, already exist. And further, since characters can only pilot one ship at a time and can only ever put so much SP into a specific ship, adding SP into a character is a practice that already has capped gains.
Yes, they can gain variety, but that's capped by the available items which should already be balanced between themselves anyways because that creates issues without even considering this.
The remaining consideration is alts, but input broadcasting was banned, helping soft cap abuses for multiple account holders in addition to cost and effort doing so prior.
Which makes me think, was this envisioned as far back as that and Input broadcasting banned as a step to enable this?
Jenn aSide wrote:It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. Honest question, how is this different from AUR and it's current function? Or are you indirectly saying that line has been crossed?
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines. Good luck, monocle-gate never bothered me. 18months did, poor optimization of a mandatory feature did, neglect of other aspects for that same feature while having no real plan did.
If people wanted $80 monocles, who was I to tell them they shouldn't, much less can't. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:46:17 -
[1057] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
close. but no. the 500k u looking at is how you put it in. and if you have over 5mill you don't get 500k from injectors. u get 400k
Oh! I see! I hadn't looked closely enough. I was somehow thinking the threshold to start getting diminished returns was higher than 5 mil SP. You may soon get me to be sold on this! I'll tell you grand plan right now, if this all happens the way it has been described, with extractors costing a low Aur price. Step 1 : I'll go on the character bazaar and buy any four characters that have 5 mill or more SP and at least one remap. Step 2: I'll sub 4 new accounts, and have the characters transferred there. Step 3: Remap them all to Intelligence (first) and Memory (second). Step 4: Train them to cybernetics V if they're not already there. Step 5: Buy 2 improved implants each. No need to bother buying any more than that, because those two attributes are the only two they will ever use for the rest of their existence. Step 6: Train them as pure research and industry alts. And gradually remove all non-related skills. Then every month they'll train into a new Int/Memory skill, and Every month they'll extract it and give it to my main (or another alt.) thats.....a really expensive plan o.o and i don't think it will be worth it
4 characters, 5mill or more SP. ok thats cheap enough. maybe under 10mill for all 4 if u you lucky (more likely 16mill)
4 new accounts, thats 4 plex per month. plus your main
and then using ALOT of injectors and extractors, which i'm guessing(no word how much they will be yet. so spitballing here) 4 injectors will be 1 plex, and 4 extractors will be 1 plex
so thats... 16mill isk
and the plex cost...is nasty there......
4(plus main for 5) plex per month for subs
2 plex per the 1 injector/extractor for all 4 char.
you could probably get 2-3 injectors per month per character....
so thats 5 plex + 4 to 6 plex per month
for 4 x 2 or 4 x 3. so 8 or 12 injections (assuming there is no cooldown on them, which is something CCP has NOT said yet)
and assuming u have 10-50mill. thats 400k x 8 or 12. so 2.4mill or 3.6mill SP per month.
so 3.2 to 4.8mill SP per month, for the cost of 9-11 plex per month.
and once u over 50mill SP. it drops to 300k so thats 2.4mill to 3.2mill SP per month for 9 to 11 plex per month
and once u over 80mill it drops to 150k
so thats 1.2mill to 1.6mill per month for 9 to 11 plex per month.
overall, is it really worth it? under 50mill sure skill injection is worth its price in plex.
but over 50mill.....not at all. you'd be paying so much for so little......
and keep in mind, this is ALL assuming CCP hasn't put a cooldown on injection or extractor. (if they put a cooldown on it of say 7 days. your SP income is EVEN WORSE)
and thats also assuming that its 4 injector/extractor per plex. and not 2.
its also assuming that SP injections are not locked to the skill they extract (which is VERY possible)
so in short. we have to little info to judge right now. (we don't know if skill locked, or cooldown, or price)
from my guesses, its worth it for under 50mill SP characters. but not for above.
50mill SP characters are sold ALOT on character bazaar for an easy price. far far FAR less than the total plex cost of you getting 50mill SP off injectors.
WAY less.
so if you want to train up a fast char of under 50mill SP. injectors are fine
but above 50mill SP.....your better off buying from the bazaar
hell...bazaar is cheaper for specialize characters as well. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:47:57 -
[1058] - Quote
I wonder what this will do to the market value of high SP characters?
Currently you can sell an 80 mil SP character for well over 35 bil ISK. But with extractors, will that price hold up?
If this is going to massively de-value characters that people have put years into building up, that might cause some unsubbing. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:48:42 -
[1059] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Good to know that you're a true Eve player afterall, well said. If being a true player means having to conform to group think outrage rather than being allowed to form your opinion, or really anything else other than the desire to enjoy the game, it's a badge I'll proudly not wear.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 03:53:22 -
[1060] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
close. but no. the 500k u looking at is how you put it in. and if you have over 5mill you don't get 500k from injectors. u get 400k
Oh! I see! I hadn't looked closely enough. I was somehow thinking the threshold to start getting diminished returns was higher than 5 mil SP. You may soon get me to be sold on this! I'll tell you grand plan right now, if this all happens the way it has been described, with extractors costing a low Aur price. Step 1 : I'll go on the character bazaar and buy any four characters that have 5 mill or more SP and at least one remap. Step 2: I'll sub 4 new accounts, and have the characters transferred there. Step 3: Remap them all to Intelligence (first) and Memory (second). Step 4: Train them to cybernetics V if they're not already there. Step 5: Buy 2 improved implants each. No need to bother buying any more than that, because those two attributes are the only two they will ever use for the rest of their existence. Step 6: Train them as pure research and industry alts. And gradually remove all non-related skills. Then every month they'll train into a new Int/Memory skill, and Every month they'll extract it and give it to my main (or another alt.) thats.....a really expensive plan o.o and i don't think it will be worth it 4 characters, 5mill or more SP. ok thats cheap enough. maybe under 10mill for all 4 if u you lucky (more likely 16mill) 4 new accounts, thats 4 plex per month. plus your main and then using ALOT of injectors and extractors, which i'm guessing(no word how much they will be yet. so spitballing here) 4 injectors will be 1 plex, and 4 extractors will be 1 plex so thats... 16mill isk and the plex cost...is nasty there...... 4(plus main for 5) plex per month for subs 2 plex per the 1 injector/extractor for all 4 char. you could probably get 2-3 injectors per month per character.... so thats 5 plex + 4 to 6 plex per month for 4 x 2 or 4 x 3. so 8 or 12 injections (assuming there is no cooldown on them, which is something CCP has NOT said yet) and assuming u have 10-50mill. thats 400k x 8 or 12. so 2.4mill or 3.6mill SP per month. so 3.2 to 4.8mill SP per month, for the cost of 9-11 plex per month. and once u over 50mill SP. it drops to 300k so thats 2.4mill to 3.2mill SP per month for 9 to 11 plex per month and once u over 80mill it drops to 150k so thats 1.2mill to 1.6mill per month for 9 to 11 plex per month. overall, is it really worth it? under 50mill sure skill injection is worth its price in plex. but over 50mill.....not at all. you'd be paying so much for so little...... and keep in mind, this is ALL assuming CCP hasn't put a cooldown on injection or extractor. (if they put a cooldown on it of say 7 days. your SP income is EVEN WORSE) and thats also assuming that its 4 injector/extractor per plex. and not 2. its also assuming that SP injections are not locked to the skill they extract (which is VERY possible) so in short. we have to little info to judge right now. (we don't know if skill locked, or cooldown, or price) from my guesses, its worth it for under 50mill SP characters. but not for above. 50mill SP characters are sold ALOT on character bazaar for an easy price. far far FAR less than the total plex cost of you getting 50mill SP off injectors. WAY less. so if you want to train up a fast char of under 50mill SP. injectors are fine but above 50mill SP.....your better off buying from the bazaar hell...bazaar is cheaper for specialize characters as well. bringing to new forum page for continued discussion.
overall. character bazaar will be cheaper any day.
but if you say bought a character from the bazaar and found it missing a skill, use an injector to fix it without buying a new character or w8ing weeks.
but pporporsionally, bazaar is cheaper per SP.
while injectors will cost more for the same ammount of SP |
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
342
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:02:26 -
[1061] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:while the original Eve players leave this game Oh my, vague unsubbing threats... made on the behalf of other people!! Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead. But the death effects won't be noticeable right away so the game would still be playable for about a year. Within a year's time the decaying effects of SP trading would manifest itself to a point where scrubs like you should take notice and whether you like it or not, you're interest in this game would began to decline to the point of no interest (assuming you're no longer a pay2win scrub by that time).
My accounts are paid for at this time so I intend to get my money's worth while I still have game time. But I won't be paying CCP another penny after that game time expires in the next 6 months. Around that time I imagine pay2win scrubbies like yourself would all that will be remaining in Eve to sustain CCPs financial well being so enjoy your pay2win Eve to the fullest while you still can.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:04:33 -
[1062] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:while the original Eve players leave this game Oh my, vague unsubbing threats... made on the behalf of other people!! Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead. But the death effects won't be noticeable right away so the game would still be playable for about a year. Within a year's time the decaying effects of SP trading would manifest itself to a point where scrubs like you should take notice and whether you like it or not, you're interest in this game would began to decline to the point of no interest (assuming you're no longer a pay2win scrub by that time). My accounts are paid for at this time so I intend to get my money's worth while I still have game time. But I won't be paying CCP another penny after that game time expires in the next 6 months. Around that time I imagine pay2win scrubbies like yourself would all that will be remaining in Eve to sustain CCPs financial well being so enjoy your pay2win Eve to the fullest while you still can. pay 2 win?
as opposed to buying a pre made character?
cry more doomcryer |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:06:01 -
[1063] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead. Feel free to describe the process of the games death. How will this actually happen?
We've seen mention of a number of potential abuses, but none that actually degrade gameplay.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
342
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:30:09 -
[1064] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead. Feel free to describe the process of the games death. How will this actually happen? We've seen mention of a number of potential abuses, but none that actually degrade gameplay.
I've seen tons of post explaining this.....what are you reading??
If you really don't know then I say stick around for another 6 months from now and bare witness to the lifeless game that Eve will become when you see 1 week old toons flying around in Marauders. The sense of accomplishment would be gone from Eve forever and if you are a gamer then you should already know that without a sense of accomplishment or evolution then there is no reason to play any game for an extended time. Your interest in such a game would naturally decline over a certain time on it's own.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:34:40 -
[1065] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead. Feel free to describe the process of the games death. How will this actually happen? We've seen mention of a number of potential abuses, but none that actually degrade gameplay. I've seen tons of post explaining this.....what are you reading?? If you really don't know then I say stick around for another 6 months from now and bare witness to the lifeless game that Eve will become when you see 1 week old toons flying around in Marauders. The sense of accomplishment would be gone from Eve forever and if you are a gamer then you should already know that without a sense of accomplishment or evolution then there is no reason to play any game for an extended time. Your interest in such a game would naturally decline over a certain time on it's own. how much money do you think people are going to pay for this?
1 week old toons flying around in marauders? THEY CAN ALREADY DO THAT THROUGH THE CHARACTER BAZAAR.
and guess what. THEY CAN DO IT THROUGH THE CHARACTER BAZAAR CHEAPER AND EASIER THAN THEY CAN BUILDING THEIR OWN CHARACTER WITH SP INJECTORS THAT per SP WILL COST MORE THAN JUST BUYING IN CHARACTER BAZAAR.
so is the game dead 6 months after character bazaar? no?
then how is this going to make a difference?
if 1 week old toons are going to fly marauders, they would have done it already.
and i will repeat for your TINY TINY MIND
SP from injectors will cost MORE isk per SP than it would cost buying a similar SP character in character BAZAAR
use the brain you claim to have. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:37:43 -
[1066] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead. Feel free to describe the process of the games death. How will this actually happen? We've seen mention of a number of potential abuses, but none that actually degrade gameplay. I've seen tons of post explaining this.....what are you reading?? If you really don't know then I say stick around for another 6 months from now and bare witness to the lifeless game that Eve will become when you see 1 week old toons flying around in Marauders. The sense of accomplishment would be gone from Eve forever and if you are a gamer then you should already know that without a sense of accomplishment or evolution then there is no reason to play any game for an extended time. Your interest in such a game would naturally decline over a certain time on it's own. Who cares if 1 week old characters are in marauders? Further what sort of actually interested player determines the value of their trained skills by who doesn't have them rather than what they do?
Is that what people really play for? The ability to say "Look what I can fly that you can't!"?
Especially when the ability to do so came from just waiting it out for the most part?
How do those who claim to like the game the most do the best at making the player base look like our entertainment is primarily shallow posturing? |
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
235
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:40:53 -
[1067] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Rain6637 wrote:wait, are we unsubbing or not. I can never tell with these things. I just resubbed all my accounts 1 week before CCP released this Dev blog. I feel like I've been scammed by CCP. Did you ignore the prior blog on the same subject? Or just assume it wouldn't go forward? Since the feedback was so negative and the lack of response by CCP, I thought they would back out of it. Looks like I overestimated CCPs intellectual capabilities. Since my accounts are paid for (for a little while longer), I intend on abusing the hell out this garbage in ways CCP never imagined to show them the error of their ways.
They didn't go to flying silent due to getting ready to scrub this idea from feedback being horrid. They just turned on their Ignore/Customer settings yet again and it's ram down throat (yet again) for us unwashed masses. How do you know an idea of CCP's stinks on ice and they don't wanna budge on it?
The silence speaks volumes. Predictable reaction when their brainfart (oh) brainstorm idea falls on it's face in public, that gets you ganked after a while. Or filing papers for loan extensions. Someone's hurting for cash in a big way. This is just the latest patch to a bottom line that must be dripping red ink. Better them than me. :-P
All my accounts run out of time in a couple months. Let's see how this rolls, and see how the possible blowback flies. I'll sit back, giggle, and be ready to say... see? Toldja so. Listen to customers and act on their feedback, live longer as a viable company.
>Jeven
Memo. I still want those customizable overview icons as promised and the return of Region flavor text descriptions dammit! February Release sounds good to me, since I'll NOT be buying or selling my SPs.
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:44:02 -
[1068] - Quote
the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13426
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 04:51:32 -
[1069] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Who cares if 1 week old characters are in marauders? Further what sort of actually interested player determines the value of their trained skills by who doesn't have them rather than what they do?
Is that what people really play for? The ability to say "Look what I can fly that you can't!"?
Especially when the ability to do so came from just waiting it out for the most part?
How do those who claim to like the game the most do the best at making the player base look like our entertainment is primarily shallow posturing?
Asking these questions means you don't understand some of the motivations other people experience.
A sense of accomplishment is important to some of us, and right now you either have to train your toon, or spend cash on a whole character with a name you didn't pick and skills you don't want from the character bazaar. Those hurdles make the character bazaar acceptable to people who think like we do. Sp trading doesn't have near enough hurdles to balance it out, and it's existence will mean that a portion of our accomplishment, our patience in training up our characters, will be devalued.
You don't share the same value set of the people who highly dislike this change, which is why you don't get it. And so you can't see the potential danger here. CCP is thinking like you. And frankly it may comes to some of us organizing and demonstrating to CCP that what they are doing is crossing a line.
fyi I'm not quitting, I don't think this will destroy the game outright, but it's a very very bad move. Personally it reduces my confidence of my friends at CCP that we all owe so much to for making this game.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 05:11:48 -
[1070] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Asking these questions means you don't understand some of the motivations other people experience.
A sense of accomplishment is important to some of us, and right now you either have to train your toon, or spend cash on a whole character with a name you didn't pick and skills you don't want from the character bazaar. Those hurdles make the character bazaar acceptable to people who think like we do. Sp trading doesn't have near enough hurdles to balance it out, and it's existence will mean that a portion of our accomplishment, our patience in training up our characters, will be devalued.
You don't share the same value set of the people who highly dislike this change, which is why you don't get it. And so you can't see the potential danger here. CCP is thinking like you. And frankly it may comes to some of us organizing and demonstrating to CCP that what they are doing is crossing a line.
fyi I'm not quitting, I don't think this will destroy the game outright, but it's a very very bad move. Personally it reduces my confidence of my friends at CCP that we all owe so much to for making this game. Asking those questions asks people to actually quantify standing in the way of a feature others might use and see the value in.
And it especially focuses on the fact that this value is first of all subjective. It's not a lack of understanding, I understand fully well, but it quite frankly certainly justifies neither the claims that the game will die nor the general idea of why it's bad for the game. Basically it says it's bad because some people with an attachment to the concept of Eve characters being in an immutable queue is more than their personal feelings and objectively negative fact.
It ironically does so while excluding those who see this as a positive and their reasoning or motivations, but no one would point the same accusation of not understanding that direction. Rather they'd often just assume the worst and argue from that assumption.
It also calls to question the depths of personal goal setting and achievement, the actually advertized sandbox portion of the game. Rather than draw value in the experience from here it's instead being drawn mechanically by a measure set in the game itself. In fact, this idea turns that queue into an actionable goal.
Daniela Doran has decided that her place within the SP hierarchy is important enough to cancell out the good in the game, which makes her consideration of that valid to call out, assuming she believes what she says.
I understand it, I just think it a poor platform from which to condemn CCP or predict the death of Eve. |
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 05:25:41 -
[1071] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Rain6637 wrote:wait, are we unsubbing or not. I can never tell with these things. I just resubbed all my accounts 1 week before CCP released this Dev blog. I feel like I've been scammed by CCP. Did you ignore the prior blog on the same subject? Or just assume it wouldn't go forward? Since the feedback was so negative and the lack of response by CCP, I thought they would back out of it. Looks like I overestimated CCPs intellectual capabilities. Since my accounts are paid for (for a little while longer), I intend on abusing the hell out this garbage in ways CCP never imagined to show them the error of their ways. They didn't go to flying silent due to getting ready to scrub this idea from feedback being horrid. They just turned on their Ignore/Customer settings yet again and it's ram down throat (yet again) for us unwashed masses. How do you know an idea of CCP's stinks on ice and they don't wanna budge on it? The silence speaks volumes. Predictable reaction when their brainfart (oh) brainstorm idea falls on it's face in public, that gets you ganked after a while. Or filing papers for loan extensions. Someone's hurting for cash in a big way. This is just the latest patch to a bottom line that must be dripping red ink. Better them than me. :-P All my accounts run out of time in a couple months. Let's see how this rolls, and see how the possible blowback flies. I'll sit back, giggle, and be ready to say... see? Toldja so. Listen to customers and act on their feedback, live longer as a viable company. >Jeven Memo. I still want those customizable overview icons as promised and the return of Region flavor text descriptions dammit! February Release sounds good to me, since I'll NOT be buying or selling my SPs.
You do know that CCP discussed this openly with players months ago |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
342
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 05:35:26 -
[1072] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. That original post was when..around 10-15-15? That's plenty of time for that moron Dave Stark to start up another alt. So I'm betting you and Dave Stark are one and the same.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 05:36:39 -
[1073] - Quote
I don't think they are understanding just how much the injectors will be, which will act in and of itself as the prohibiter or hedge to check its proliferation. For example, and for the sake of argument, let's say they were made available for 1800 AUR a stick. Add the value of SP to this empty stick and you now have what could be near the value of a single PLEX. Undoubtedly PLEX will inflate, so I will throw out an estimated value of 800m ISK a pop. After the first 10 Skill Shots (assuming this is a brand new character with zero training) any subsequent injectors will suffer a 100k SP loss on activation.
That's 8 BILLION in costs just to jump to 5 million SP. What kind of marauder will you be flying with 5mil SP! Far from the doomsday scenario people are painting. No one will be able to afford to catch up to a 200m SP character. EVER!!!!!
If thousands do, hopefully CCP can throw a perpetual fanfest that goes all year long and at every major location. Whoop!
::puts party hat on::
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 05:46:13 -
[1074] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:so for all of you negative nancies.
instead of crying that the entire idea is bad
how about you NAME what you think is bad about it.
from what i'm seeing, the main thing you people don't like about it is people can buy them in mass to train 1 character to god level.
so instead of wasting your time saying the entire idea is bad, how about you suggest a cap for the max total number of SP before you can't use it anymore?
like once you have (spitballing a number here) 30mill total SP, you can't inject more SP. or you can't use the inject to train capital level skills.
the inject idea is mostly focused around low SP characters. so CCP might listen to that argument as it doesnt interfere with the primary audience.
see the logic behind this? best of both worlds.
I for one don't see the current announced feature as an endpoint for changes of this sort but rather the beginning. I'm pretty sure CCP would prefer to create a system for direct skill point buying as it is simpler and would be easier to use. However, they are probably afraid of player backlash from such a radical change being done *all at once*.
However, with the current feature you can dvide the player community by bribing a portion of them with direct incentives: they can sell skill points if they wish while CCP still makes money on the injectors. This is clearly a political move, and it's at least partially working. You can curry favor with both buyers and sellers of skill points rather than just the buyers this way.
But many of us (the majority I believe) are opposed to this scheme because we believe it will gradually destroy the game as we know it, especially if there is an even greater shift toward micro-transactions coming. I think there's a fair chance that within a year CCP will drop the whole "skill point trading" scheme and replace it with "direct skill point purchasing" from CCP only. There would be no more limits on supply since you wouldn't have to wait on players to decide to sell skill points. A radical change to be sure, but an easier one to make politically once you have conditioned players to accept the notion via the intermediate scheme of skill point trading.
Both schemes are pay-to-win, but the second is a little more blatant. In either case, I don't think CCP would be all that willing to place limits on the amount of skill points a player can purchase. This is clearly a cash grab move, and they won't want to limit the potential revenue they obviously think they can make from it. The notion of attracting a lot of new players with this I think is a smokescreen; the real goal is probably to just milk more money from the current player base.
Another forseeable possibility would be a complete transition to micro-transactions and a free-to-play model in which most skill points have to be purchased unless you are willing to wait for skill points to accumulate, presumably at a much slower rate than today. I don't know that EVE could make such a transition nor whether it would make any business sense, but it definitely would alter the character of the game and player base in big way.
Some people have mentioned even dropping skills entirely. I'm not sure that would be better or worse than pay-to-win, but it would almost certainly result in a higher rate of player turnover, and probably some amount of extra player growth for a while. It would drop barriers of access to certain parts of the game on a time basis, but players would still need to develop experience in playing. Access to ISK would also be a limiting factor in the beginning unless they buy lots of PLEX. The lack of skill barriers would appeal to impatient new players for a while, but the steep learning curve for the game might still ultimately turn them off.
I'm not sure how I feel about a no-skills game, and it would definitely be different than today's EVE. However, all of the pay-to-win schemes for skill-point buying I think are major negatives. The latter make it too easy for a few players with tons of money to spend while making things worse for those that can't. The latter would find it harder to compete than they do today. That's why this whole thing is pay-to-win. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
571
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 06:19:10 -
[1075] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies.
This made me lol. This troll, posting nonstop, a one-man SP-trading advocacy group, has the nerve to talk about spamming. Where are these supportive stats coming from? Did you count comments? I've seen nothing but overwhelming disapproval and 1st year vets unsubbing. All while much younger players laugh about it and call them names. Good times.
My initial reaction was shock that this was even being considered and disbelief when I saw the devblog.
And, tbh, I'm still having a difficult time accepting that CCP has chosen to cheapen the game in this way and devalue the time investment of so many players. Because training has been so linear, for players who assign value to their games based on time, its a tough pill to swallow. It makes all that time meaningless. All those years of loyalty... poof. And this is made worse by the lack of communication from CCP. Instead we're left to debate the merits of a done deal with trolls about as smart as turnips. I can't even. I care so much about this game - it literally kills me to see these easymode, want-it-now noobs screeching about what a great change this is b/c they don't have to wait. Wheeeee! They don't even understand what EVE is. Or was, as it were, at this point.
You know, I'm hearbroken like I lost a friend (lol) but I'm not quitting over this. I'm not sure what stage of grief I'm on at this point but I'm guessing it's nearer 7 than 1. If EVE is going down in flames, I'll be around for the ride. **** it. Personally, I'm looking forward to the o7 show on Thursday. Where, I expect, we'll actually see LIVE devs speaking about this. I look forward to hearing all about the excitement spreading through the playerbase and the overwhelming support for SP-trading. Really I just hope someone at least tries to sell it to me in a way that makes sense.
Because I can't make much sense of it on my own. : /
How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes?
EVE ONLINE: HTF... oh whatever. I give up.
Now back to your regularly-scheduled trolls....
YK |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1871
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 06:39:29 -
[1076] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes? Your definition of consequence seems pretty narrow. Even if someone can pay to undo something, the fact that they have to make that payment is a consequence. If they have to endure some loss, that's also a consequence.
So the answer is simple, if erasing has a cost, mistakes still have consequences. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
382
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 06:53:28 -
[1077] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:A sense of accomplishment is important to some of us, and right now you either have to train your toon, or spend cash on a whole character with a name you didn't pick and skills you don't want from the character bazaar. Those hurdles make the character bazaar acceptable to people who think like we do. Sp trading doesn't have near enough hurdles to balance it out, and it's existence will mean that a portion of our accomplishment, our patience in training up our characters, will be devalued.
You don't share the same value set of the people who highly dislike this change, which is why you don't get it. And so you can't see the potential danger here. CCP is thinking like you. And frankly it may comes to some of us organizing and demonstrating to CCP that what they are doing is crossing a line.
fyi I'm not quitting, I don't think this will destroy the game outright, but it's a very very bad move. Personally it reduces my confidence of my friends at CCP that we all owe so much to for making this game.
I was flying a Magus with my fleet a few hours ago. We engaged another fleet of similar numbers, but heaver ships. I jumpfielded one of their two Augurors away, held it down, but couldn't scratch its armor much. A Stiletto came over to try to free the Auguror, but I quickly dispatched it solo. After my jumpfield cooldown I jumped the Auguror away even further as his logi buddy was able split the difference between us and the fight, set up the cap transfer, and continue repping. An even heavier gang showed up to 3rd party, we finished off the first targets, then noped out of there. I didn't get on any of the nice kills, but I really helped out with that fight.
That is what I consider an accomplishment. I have no idea what the ages or SP levels of the people we fought were, and I do not care. (Actually, I just checked - for what it's worth the Stiletto pilot is 5 yr 10 mo old. I'm 1 yr 10 mo old.) I don't care if a player one week into the game purchased that character off the bazaar yesterday. I wouldn't care if it was a week-old toon somebody spent 20 PLEX in order to inject SP.
I don't think it's an accomplishment that I'm approaching 2 years in this game. I don't continue playing simply to get that number, and my SP count, higher. I play this game because of the connections I've made with the people I fly with, and against. I count as accomplishments the small roles I play and the appreciate I have from my fleetmates for what I do.
While I don't consider training SP at 2700 SP/hr for several years an accomplishment, I do understand that some do and that they are upset they can displaced in SP rankings not only by players purchasing old toons like now, but also soon by players building up new toons. However I don't see anything that negatively impacts the game itself in that. Just hurt feelings of being special. I don't see the danger of EVE becoming "lifeless."
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 06:56:41 -
[1078] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:I wonder what this will do to the market value of high SP characters?
Currently you can sell an 80 mil SP character for well over 35 bil ISK. But with extractors, will that price hold up?
If this is going to massively de-value characters that people have put years into building up, that might cause some unsubbing. The price could increase by quite a bit for characters with odd skills.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
342
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 07:00:43 -
[1079] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:I don't think they are understanding just how much the injectors will be, which will act in and of itself as the prohibiter or hedge to check its proliferation. For example, and for the sake of argument, let's say they were made available for 1800 AUR a stick. Add the value of SP to this empty stick and you now have what could be near the value of a single PLEX. Undoubtedly PLEX will inflate, so I will throw out an estimated value of 800m ISK a pop. After the first 10 Skill Shots (assuming this is a brand new character with zero training) any subsequent injectors will suffer a 100k SP loss on activation.
That's 8 BILLION in costs just to jump to 5 million SP. What kind of marauder will you be flying with 5mil SP! Far from the doomsday scenario people are painting. No one will be able to afford to catch up to a 200m SP character. EVER!!!!!
If thousands do, hopefully CCP can throw a perpetual fanfest that goes all year long and at every major location. Whoop!
::puts party hat on::
Maybe, but we won't know until CCP get the numbers right and release more details.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
382
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 07:31:36 -
[1080] - Quote
After reading some more of the objections, I think they generally fall within two separate groups.
First, the objection that SP can be a market item at all.
Second, the objection that CCP gets a monetary cut of any SP trade, via the AUR requirement. As in, "What's next? Pay 1 AUR to undock each time?"
I've previously described why I'm not concerned with the first. Regarding the second - I agree that this certainly could be an issue. I would totally hate feeling that the more I do in the game, the more real-money I have to pay. I'd simply stop doing stuff in the game under those circumstances. Thinking about it more - my preference is that CCP should not add an AUR cost to Skill Extractors, and instead simply let the player-driven market decide the relationship between SP, ISK, effort, sub price and PLEX price. In fact, CCP should not add an AUR cost to any in-game activities, whether it's trading SP or undocking or whatever. (Equipping a monocle or SKIN is not what I would call an "activity" so those costing AUR is fine by me.)
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6931
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 09:46:41 -
[1081] - Quote
[quote=Eli StanI don't think it's an accomplishment that I'm approaching 2 years in this game. I don't continue playing simply to get that number, and my SP count, higher. I play this game because of the connections I've made with the people I fly with, and against. I count as accomplishments the small roles I play and the appreciate I have from my fleetmates for what I do.[/quote] Yo, this place isn't safe.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Hurrikhan Phact
Aideron Corp
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 10:33:21 -
[1082] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details. We welcome all your feedback, thank you! My feedback? Don't do it. Reasons see below.
Jenn aSide wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with. The skill point trading thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines. This. Skill trading might not be P2W, but its P2Progress, which isnt much better. Give new characters more start skill points if you are worried about them getting bored. You could also give them unallocated skill points after finishing the tutorials. Promoting Pay2Progress not only disgruntles many loyal, long-time subscribers, but is also the worst way to help new players. Most gamers, who havent played EVE, already think that EVE is a very expensive game because they read all the "50,000$ lost in 1 battle" news articles. It will be very hard to convinve them that EVE is not blatant P2W when they see offers like "pay X amount of money to skip the boring training time!" "instanlty get the perfect skills for a Svipul and pwn your fellow newbies!" |
ZmajOgnjeniVuk
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 11:08:07 -
[1083] - Quote
I support this update. Would give new-mid level players a chance to be more engaged in endgame content. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1934
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 11:37:41 -
[1084] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with. The skill point trading thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.
So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change.
And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though! |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 11:46:58 -
[1085] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:You can fight with basic skills, you continue to ignore this because of "SP matters" mentality. noobs with basic skills can help in PVP, noobs in PVP can fight and learn against other noobs in PVP. Vets who care about the future of the game will help to train noobs in basic PVP with the equipment that is available to them rather that telling them "you must be this tall to ride". Your psychology is all wrong there.
Newbie A has no real experience, and due to SP constraints flies a weak ship with an even weaker fit. Newbie A gets trashed a lot in PVP.
Newbie B has no real experience, but due to SP boosts flies a decent ship with a good fit. Newbie B gets trashed a lot in PVP (though somewhat less often than Newbie A).
Given this, which newbie learns more rapidly that it is not just SP (and consequently ships and fits) that determine PVP success, but rather real experience?
Of course it is Newbie B who learns this faster, on average! Because Newbie B cannot blame his losses on the equipment as much, whereas Newbie A can continue to believe that if he only had a better ship with a better fit, he would do much better.
Given this, which newbie is likely to stay more motivated to continue playing?
Of course it is Newbie B who will be more motivated. He will on one hand have a clear and realistic learning goal (I need to improve my actual skills here, not just "amass more SP by waiting"), and on the other hand he will be winning some fights (at least more than Newbie A), and winning is fun.
A newbie's first instinct will typically be to get the absolute best equipment they can possibly afford, to compensate for their lack of experience. And that is proper and good.
Also, let's be clear here: if indeed it were the case that it is only real experience that counts in fights, then this whole discussion would be entirely pointless for veterans. In fact, they should think nothing of simply allowing everybody to fly whatever they want. After all, who wins fights would then be determined solely be experience, which the veterans have on their side no matter what. But that's of course not the case. While a newbie can have a good ship fitted so badly, and steer it so horribly, as to lose to a veteran in a weak ship, a slightly less clueless and inexperienced newbie in a much better ship will not be such an easy victim (at least in solo PVP).
Not all veterans find EVE as easy as Suitonia. I bet a number of veterans have grown too comfortable with the hierarchy of equipment access imposed by the SP system. Some people will now be able to "shortcut" through the ranks. Yes, some of them will be "clowns" that just rise as high as their credit card will take them. But some of them will be simply good players who demonstrate that it doesn't in fact take years to master this or that EVE game mechanic, if one only is allowed to have a go at it. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1934
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 11:57:44 -
[1086] - Quote
My view on 'It doesn't change the game because character bazaar':
1) I dislike immenesely the idea of the character bazaar.
2) building a character over time based on training choices was a central concept right at the heart of this game. It required time, planning and some research. That is now being removed which in my view is a pretty major change in the concept of the game.
I also don't for one second think that this will be enough for people (classic thin end of the wedge). Players who are happy to buy there way in will simply keep asking for more.
Whilst this change doesn't affect the mechanics of the game it will very heavily affect how people play the game. Good or bad remains to be seen. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
348
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 12:33:11 -
[1087] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with. The skill point trading thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines. So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change. And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though!
You will quit in time. Eve will be instantly downgraded to 3rd rate once this SP trading goes live. And a 3rd rate Eve doesn't stand a chance against competitors like Star Citizen.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3156
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 12:37:33 -
[1088] - Quote
Talk about the price of skill injectors etc is to completely miss the point.
What is fundamentally wrong, is being able to pay cash for skill points.
This is not a signature.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:08:58 -
[1089] - Quote
What do you call it when you stay subbed for years on several accounts to make sure you don't miss out on SP, even though you know you won't be playing?
It's the same thing.
The important thing to remember is it's within the limits of what a company can do with the rule book. Whether it's Magic The Gathering and a change in the bylaws or whatever governs the card game, an SP transfer mechanic is the same thing.
As for the question of "What Next?"
Being able to see things through to their logical conclusions is a good skill, but another good skill is the ability to be objective about what is, and stopping short of what something might be.
The extractor / SP trade mechanic is one case when you shouldn't react based on an exaggeration of the thing. Evaluate it for what it is, and go with that.
It helps to not be emotional about it.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Memphis Baas
980
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:09:03 -
[1090] - Quote
Would you guys be against extending attribute implants?
+5, +10, +50, +100, +1000, +10,000,000 100m ISK, plex, 5plex, 10plex, 100plex, $20,000,000
The last one would allow pretty much training of "everything" in 2 days.
At which point, between "it takes 4 years to build a character" and "instant" do you start complaining, and why? Does the completely unreasonable cost factor into your reasoning? Clearly there are billionaires out there; I doubt anyone would pay $20 million for a character, but theoretically a "rich kid" could.
|
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:11:26 -
[1091] - Quote
I thought +10 attribute enhancement was an eye opener. But I also CBA to pay or hunt for them.
I wouldn't be against it, but remember any kind of flat acceleration to SP accumulation is a discount on one of EVE's main subscription generators.
Skill extractors are a sink, and the exact opposite.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:19:55 -
[1092] - Quote
To accelerate SP accumulation by a year, or 20 million SP, CCP would have to recoup the cost of an annual subscription.
So it would cost AUR, not ISK.
Figure 12 PLEX for 20 million SP overnight, and add a 50% premium for the convenience.
18 PLEX x 3500 AUR = 63,000 AUR. It would look something like that per 20 million SP.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:22:27 -
[1093] - Quote
Three of these http://i.imgur.com/U0QrLwo.png
triple posting because I'm edgy
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:31:58 -
[1094] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote: thats.....a really expensive plan o.o and i don't think it will be worth it
4 characters, 5mill or more SP. ok thats cheap enough. maybe under 10mill for all 4 if u you lucky (more likely 16mill)
4 new accounts, thats 4 plex per month. plus your main
and then using ALOT of injectors and extractors, which i'm guessing(no word how much they will be yet. so spitballing here) 4 injectors will be 1 plex, and 4 extractors will be 1 plex
so thats... 16mill isk
and the plex cost...is nasty there......
4(plus main for 5) plex per month for subs
2 plex per the 1 injector/extractor for all 4 char.
you could probably get 2-3 injectors per month per character....
so thats 5 plex + 4 to 6 plex per month
I think you mean 16 bil. But we're talking "pay to win" right? So why would I use plex for my subs? Dollar for dollar, straight subbing is cheaper.
And looking at the Bazaar, I think it's unlikely I'll be able to buy 4 characters for less than the cost of waitng 3 months, so I'll go ahead and skip the bazaar.
So 4 subs, 6 months each comes to $286.80 US Dollars.
Giving them 8 total improved implants will cost me most of a PLEX. So add $17.50 to that
After the three month mark, each character should be able to give me 3 extractors per month.
Each of them will also be half decent industry and research alts by now, so I might be earning ISK off of them.
Quote:
and thats also assuming that its 4 injector/extractor per plex. and not 2.
I mentioned the assumption of a fairly cheap aur value was a requisite of the plan, yes.
If Aur costs a lot, then this isn't "pay to win". It's "pay a lot to win", in which case it won't destroy the game because only a few players will be rich enough to even do it.
Quote: its also assuming that SP injections are not locked to the skill they extract (which is VERY possible)
If that is the case, then each alt will remap at the 3 month mark to a separate specialization.
One will stay Intelligence/Memory to improve shield/armor tanking and etc skills
One will go Memory/Perception for drone skills
One will go Charisma/Will for leadership
One will go Will/Perception - because you know that's a good specialized farm right there. Great for perfecting covert ops, or marauders.... etc. But you usually wouldn't want to commit to map one character to that for a full year just to max that out.
Quote: 50mill SP characters are sold ALOT on character bazaar for an easy price. far far FAR less than the total plex cost of you getting 50mill SP off injectors.
Usually the reason they sell for so little is because they are unspecialized.
With Injectors, all toons are equally specialized. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33233
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:42:35 -
[1095] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:With Injectors, all toons are equally specialized. I think what you mean is remapped. If attributes went away, this point wouldn't be an issue. And they need to go away.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:49:11 -
[1096] - Quote
Why do mouth-breathers here keep pointing towards Newbs having no actual skill therefor injection of SP isn't P2W?
This has nothing to do with Newbs injecting skills it has to do with the hardened player of several years now being able to pay to play like a 10+ year vet.
The Novice players are the ones who should be most mad. If you started between 2009 and 2013, your character age group has the ability to whip out credit cards and surpass you in every skill.
The alliance member can now whelp in as many Slippery Pete fleets as they want. Need a cyno alt, buy two injectors. Need a hauler real quick, buy 3 injectors. Need some place to park your Nyx, or stop your rival from stealing your soon to be finished one? Buy a lot of injectors.
Newbs aren't the ones I am worried about Paying For The Win. Its the guys who know what they are doing, but don't have the SP to make it all happen perfectly. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
370
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 13:59:21 -
[1097] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. This made me lol. This troll, posting nonstop, a one-man SP-trading advocacy group, has the nerve to talk about spamming. Where are these supportive stats coming from? Did you count comments? I've seen nothing but overwhelming disapproval and 1st year vets unsubbing. All while much younger players laugh about it and call them names. Good times. My initial reaction was shock that this was even being considered and disbelief when I saw the devblog. And, tbh, I'm still having a difficult time accepting that CCP has chosen to cheapen the game in this way and devalue the time investment of so many players. Because training has been so linear, for players who assign value to their games based on time, its a tough pill to swallow. It makes all that time meaningless. All those years of loyalty... poof. And this is made worse by the lack of communication from CCP. Instead we're left to debate the merits of a done deal with trolls about as smart as turnips. I can't even. I care so much about this game - it literally kills me to see these easymode, want-it-now noobs screeching about what a great change this is b/c they don't have to wait. Wheeeee! They don't even understand what EVE is. Or was, as it were, at this point. You know, I'm hearbroken like I lost a friend (lol) but I'm not quitting over this. I'm not sure what stage of grief I'm on at this point but I'm guessing it's nearer 7 than 1. If EVE is going down in flames, I'll be around for the ride. **** it. Personally, I'm looking forward to the o7 show on Thursday. Where, I expect, we'll actually see LIVE devs speaking about this. I look forward to hearing all about the excitement spreading through the playerbase and the overwhelming support for SP-trading. Really I just hope someone at least tries to sell it to me in a way that makes sense. Because I can't make much sense of it on my own. : / How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes? EVE ONLINE: HTF... oh whatever. I give up. Now back to your regularly-scheduled trolls.... YK CCP have forgotten that Eve is a niche game. Rise is only interested in PvP, whereas eve never gained it's audience due to having great PvP. That is why he and his team are throwing out this skill trading change, they think it will make it quicker to get into PvP which is true, but they don't understand that a large portion of the player base don't actually PvP and prefer the RPG aspects, and the epic feel of character progression and the Sci-Fi universe. Also Rise is terrible at anything outside of PvP, take a look at the NPE which he spent ages implementing and it is worse than what was there originally. So I blame this direction squarely at the devs not understanding their customer base and why people actually play this game.
Also with ship balancing lately CCP seems to to just chuck out changes ignoring the player base and hoping for the best. I've noticed the in last year or so the trust between the devs and players has started to erode. Same thing has happened with this change, CCP are ignoring the players thinking we don't know what is best for the game and are only acting in our own interests. I don't blame the devs for this as there are a lot of pressure groups that simply troll and spam the forums, but it is a shame.
Once all this stuff has been implemented the ADHD crowd will get bored sooner or later and move onto the next new thing, and CCP will have eroded the core player base who have kept this game going for the last 12+ years to a point that it is no longer feasible to keep the game going. I'd give it another couple of years now unless something dramatic happens such as another monoclegate.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Memphis Baas
980
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 14:10:00 -
[1098] - Quote
King Aires wrote:The alliance member can now whelp in as many Slippery Pete fleets as they want. Need a cyno alt, buy two injectors. Need a hauler real quick, buy 3 injectors. Need some place to park your Nyx, or stop your rival from stealing your soon to be finished one? Buy a lot of injectors.
All of these fictional examples are great!
Quote: So I'm sat in my super, I've jumped 2+ times, and suddenly I discover I'm OUT OF CYNO ALTS and can't reach my destination!!!
I'm market-trading with the best of them; man I can make Excel spin in circles and spit out profit at me in 256 different colors, but **** I didn't plan how I was gonna haul all this ammo I just bought from Jita to sell in Dodixie!!!
Note to self: Totally regret buying this Nyx; ship is great, but every time I get somewhere I need to find a parking spot for it!!! Dammit!
So, basically, you object to CCP and some players taking money from the absolute complete MORONS who think and act this way, and don't plan even 1 minute ahead to actually finish accomplishing the very basic actions they started. I guess I'm with you, it's not nice to take advantage of retards; let them suffer the consequences of their retardedness. |
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 14:22:37 -
[1099] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:King Aires wrote:The alliance member can now whelp in as many Slippery Pete fleets as they want. Need a cyno alt, buy two injectors. Need a hauler real quick, buy 3 injectors. Need some place to park your Nyx, or stop your rival from stealing your soon to be finished one? Buy a lot of injectors. All of these fictional examples are great!
You don't see a clear and decided advantage to being able to skip the 4.5 day train of Subsections by simply injecting the SP when it comes to constant and needed T3 CTA fleets?
Interesting. You clearly won't be P2W then because you have no idea how this game is played.
|
Memphis Baas
980
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:13:16 -
[1100] - Quote
No, there is an advantage, but it's linked to being able to field T3 fleets. With, or without skill injectors, there's no difference between you and your enemy fleet; both of you will have the same methods available to get into them T3 ships OR their counters.
You're arguing against making it easier to get into a ship (titans, for example), in an age where we're seeing BLOBs of these ships (titans, for example, it's not like they're unique and rare nowadays), and guess what, CCP has done it once (made it easier) already (they drastically reduced the skill prerequisites, esp. for weapons, for capitals and supers).
CCP should complain: With skill trading, we're going to go from "I think this fleet doctrine will be awesome." to "Crap, everybody has copied my fleet doctrine" in less than a day, in theory. And then CCP will have its hands full trying to nerf, DAILY instead of every few months, whatever overpowered fleet doctrine or tactic we come up with. |
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:14:20 -
[1101] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:No, there is an advantage, but it's linked to being able to field T3 fleets. With, or without skill injectors, there's no difference between you and your enemy fleet; both of you will have the same methods available to get into them T3 ships OR their counters.
Except now he with the most credit cards in alliance wins.
Thanks for proving my point, this is clearly just a single example of P2W |
Memphis Baas
980
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:22:35 -
[1102] - Quote
No, he with the most intelligence to come up with winning fleet doctrines daily, wins. The script kiddies can pay through their noses to try to copy, filling the target environment with tougher, but still totally killable ships (new daily winning fleet doctrine trumps script kiddy doctrine).
Sorry that you won't have PL vs. Brave Newbies style fights to pad your killboard anymore, and now have to work at killing tougher ships, it's so sad. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:36:12 -
[1103] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. This made me lol. This troll, posting nonstop, a one-man SP-trading advocacy group, has the nerve to talk about spamming. Where are these supportive stats coming from? Did you count comments? I've seen nothing but overwhelming disapproval and 1st year vets unsubbing. All while much younger players laugh about it and call them names. Good times. My initial reaction was shock that this was even being considered and disbelief when I saw the devblog. And, tbh, I'm still having a difficult time accepting that CCP has chosen to cheapen the game in this way and devalue the time investment of so many players. Because training has been so linear, for players who assign value to their games based on time, its a tough pill to swallow. It makes all that time meaningless. All those years of loyalty... poof. And this is made worse by the lack of communication from CCP. Instead we're left to debate the merits of a done deal with trolls about as smart as turnips. I can't even. I care so much about this game - it literally kills me to see these easymode, want-it-now noobs screeching about what a great change this is b/c they don't have to wait. Wheeeee! They don't even understand what EVE is. Or was, as it were, at this point. You know, I'm hearbroken like I lost a friend (lol) but I'm not quitting over this. I'm not sure what stage of grief I'm on at this point but I'm guessing it's nearer 7 than 1. If EVE is going down in flames, I'll be around for the ride. **** it. Personally, I'm looking forward to the o7 show on Thursday. Where, I expect, we'll actually see LIVE devs speaking about this. I look forward to hearing all about the excitement spreading through the playerbase and the overwhelming support for SP-trading. Really I just hope someone at least tries to sell it to me in a way that makes sense. Because I can't make much sense of it on my own. : / How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes? EVE ONLINE: HTF... oh whatever. I give up. Now back to your regularly-scheduled trolls.... YK
i'm a troll?
how? everything i said is true. skills do nothing that the character bazaar wont let you do for cheaper.
Daniela Doran wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. That original post was when..around 10-15-15? That's plenty of time for that moron Dave Stark to start up another alt. So I'm betting you and Dave Stark are one and the same. nope.
Anabuki and Yaasmine are my characters.
but if i use your logic i could claim you use all the other negative nancies.
it goes both ways. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33236
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:36:34 -
[1104] - Quote
King Aires, you're just worried the other kid will have more fun than you even though you both have the same ball.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:38:06 -
[1105] - Quote
anyway. this thread has become to toxic.
so i'm leaving it. if the devs read it they'll see my points for why its a good idea, and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do.
heres a tip. the skill injectors are already coming out.
stop bitching and leave already if you can't handle it. |
Jen Drake
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:50:29 -
[1106] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do.
Buying characters and buying SP couldn't be different from each other. If you can't see that then we will all be better off without your posts. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3370
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 15:51:25 -
[1107] - Quote
I wonder how scamming will be handeled now, it was strictly prohibited in the character bazaar. So now what?
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
|
Memphis Baas
980
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:08:07 -
[1108] - Quote
Scamming Character Bazaar will still be prohibited.
This thread is funny, in a way. We're arguing about 1,500 - 3,000 alliance pilots injecting titan skills and stomping unfairly about nullsec, and in the meantime 33,000 high-sec players will:
- inject max Trade skills to reduce broker fees and transaction taxes - inject max Social skills to increase the amount of ISK that enters the game from agent missions - inject max mining, refinery, and PI Command Center Upgrades skills, for instant Orca, Hulk with T2 crystals, and max PI - inject max production skills, instantly expanding their capabilities from 1-2 production line to 10, with researched blueprints - inject max invention skills for better / easier chances at T2
We'll get more ISK entering the economy, and cheaper production of all the toys that the 1,500 - 3,000 like to play with. There better be huge wars starting, like, right away, to offset all this. Hopefully the 3,000 will want to take out their new toys for a spin, like right away. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:29:21 -
[1109] - Quote
Jen Drake wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do. Buying characters and buying SP couldn't be different from each other. If you can't see that then we will all be better off without your posts.
They're not that different. The bazaar is just a crude form of SP purchase.
"But muh character history, muh consequences"
Look at the characters on the bazaar. Most of them have benign, uncontroversial heritage, with little reputation to speak of. And to be honest, if you're a paranoid recruiter, who are you going to be more suspicious of - the bazaar character or the 1 month old character with a clean slate but 30M SP? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33238
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:35:57 -
[1110] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:anyway. this thread has become to toxic.
so i'm leaving it. if the devs read it they'll see my points for why its a good idea, and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do.
heres a tip. the skill injectors are already coming out.
stop bitching and leave already if you can't handle it. Criticizes thread for being toxic. Says something toxic.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
Jen Drake
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:49:50 -
[1111] - Quote
The way CCP are handling this issue is ridiculous. This will be probably the single biggest change in the history of EVE and CCP are not taking it as seriously as they should. This new "feature" should go live within 5 weeks and they still don't know the cost of skill extractors? How can we have a serious conversation without knowing the costs?
Anyway I want a vote on this.
It is such a fundamental change to one of the core principles of EVE and can rub so many people the wrong way that it would be plain stupid not to have a clear view of what the player base wants. (The forum is not a reliable source.)
Even if people support the change there has to be a limited initial rollout - say only characters with less than 15m SP can inject SP. And to avoid people stockpiling injectors and inflating the price for new players: only 1 skill injector is allowed per account (Except if the injector was created on that account.)
Anyway in it is current form I hate the change and I cancelled my subscription. It is active till 26th December so I have a long time to decide if EVE is still worth my money or not.
Edit: We still can't buy attribute respecs, but we will be able to buy SPs :) |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:54:35 -
[1112] - Quote
I'm sure CCP know exactly how much the extractors will cost, they're just not telling us. |
Dyner
Zervas Aeronautics The Bastion
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:56:59 -
[1113] - Quote
This works :D
Been saying for years there needs to be a way to speed up training. It's so boring and frustrating to have the ISK, but still need "3 months 17 days 7 hours" until you can even get into that shiny new ship. -- By the time I finished training for some of the ships I was already past the desire to fly them.
*goes back to ship spinning whole waiting on more skills to finish* |
Jen Drake
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 16:57:11 -
[1114] - Quote
Dibz wrote:I'm sure CCP know exactly how much the extractors will cost, they're just not telling us.
I would be surprised if they did.
Anyway, I am out. Forums bore me. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 17:12:01 -
[1115] - Quote
It just occurred to me that this might encourage people to log on more. Instead of playing other games while they wait for skills to train they can get the skills they want sooner thus avoiding a break from the game = more people online. |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 18:19:49 -
[1116] - Quote
If this was about making EVE a better game by adding purchasable SP CCP would never have put it as an aurum real cash only item. It would have been available in game through ratting/manufacturing/exploration etc to subscribing players who already pay CCP more than most other games on a monthly basis. If they multi box they pay an extreme amount more.
This is about MONEY. They are adding CASH extractors to the game pure and simple and thumbing their nose at every paying subscriber in EVE and at the same time destroying one of the most ingenious gaming mechanics ever created.
This is about fleecing EVE... a profitable and well made game for every nickel and funneling that money into a succession of unwanted and doomed to fail pet projects that are supposed to make the company viable in the future.
To bad CCP has no idea it is a one trick pony. Their lack of success with every other game they have made for over 10 years should have taught them that. Their only hope is to stop fleecing eve and let it thrive but we know that is not going to happen. there is only one result from this kind of behavior from a developer.
There comes a point where you begin to understand that the people who originally made EVE are probably long gone and well out of the picture. Pretenders to the throne have claimed lordship and hold nothing sacred. They are breaking all the rules the EVE universe was built upon and fleecing their customers with every type of disguised double billing scheme they can think of.
Anticipation of a reward is always a longer lasting incentive than the reward itself and the people who originally made eve knew this. It is why EVE has lasted this long.
The retention numbers of players with max Level 5 skills and capitals etc are but a fraction of the paying subscribed player base of eve. They got all the rewards available and found the rewards were not even close to as enjoyable as the journey and anticipation to get those rewards.
so go ahead CCP. Turn a 40,000 player base into a 1000 player base after you give everyone access to everything.
You will think this gold rush of CASH EXTRACTION is unending right up to the point that in no time at all all those people you fleeced find they wasted their time as the game was just as fun or more fun with low SP than it was with high SP and no one has anything to look forward to anymore.
This is pathetic and sad and a total betrayal to everyone who cared anything about this game on so many levels.
|
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 18:33:27 -
[1117] - Quote
I'm posting just to repeat what I, and others, keep repeating. This isn't going to help new players. This is going to work for large alliances and people with deep wallets. You will have tons of people buying SP, and dying repeatedly, who are new because they don't understand how to play. They'll figure out what others did to get their ISK going, auto level up, and die. Fleets on 0.0 will be boring as **** because it'll be easier to counter their ships in war by buying the skills to make an army. The winners of eve will be the people who have the biggest RL wallets. This system, as you can tell from DOZENS of posts, sws how many scenarios players are coming up with to game this system. I do not see this benefitting players like you think. More examples have been given of how older players can use them with much better efficiency. |
Arkorina
Casa de Toleranta
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 18:45:27 -
[1118] - Quote
will character bazaar be removed when skill trading will be introduced? it will be a sad day |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 19:20:11 -
[1119] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote:Anticipation of a reward is always a longer lasting incentive than the reward itself and the people who originally made eve knew this. It is why EVE has lasted this long.
That is a good point.
You know, I thought I was totally on board with this. I still want it to happen, but for selfish reasons. The only reason I want it is for convenience.
I used to play WoW. When they made changes for the sake of convenience I initially welcomed them. Press a button and join a dungeon instead of taking the time to form a group and then travel to the dungeon? Woohoo! All that hassle gone. Fed up with Alliance and want to switch to Horde, but don't want to level a new character? Just pay some money and change your faction instantly! Yay! Can't be bothered to level up? Just pay some money and bingo, you skipped all that content! Such convenience!
Problem is those changes played a huge part in turning WoW into what it is today, i.e. a sorry shadow of its former self. Subs are falling but Blizzard doesn't care because they're making bank on the character services.
Hmmm. I think my opinion is changing. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
67
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 19:56:10 -
[1120] - Quote
Arkorina wrote:will character bazaar be removed when skill trading will be introduced? it will be a sad day
It's more a case of will anyone put a character up for sale if they can make lots more by selling it piecemeal as injectors |
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4528
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 19:59:51 -
[1121] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Jen Drake wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do. Buying characters and buying SP couldn't be different from each other. If you can't see that then we will all be better off without your posts. They're not that different. The bazaar is just a crude form of SP purchase. "But muh character history, muh consequences"
Look at the characters on the bazaar. Most of them have benign, uncontroversial heritage, with little reputation to speak of. And to be honest, if you're a paranoid recruiter, who are you going to be more suspicious of - the bazaar character or the 1 month old character with a clean slate but 30M SP?
The character bazaar was born as a legal alternative to illegal account sharing and/or selling. Same as PLEX was born as a legal alternative to RMT.
Selling skillpoints is a completely different beast. It is a money grab from CCP since there is no way in which the service can be obtained without paying CCP for it. They're not fighting the goodfite against shady practices; they're just charging players again for the same skilpoints they already obtained after paying their subscriptions.
Also skillpoints are not a temporary commodity like a ship or a module, nor are a cosmetic item without consequences to gameplay. They are a mean to obtain an advantage, and they're 99.99% permanent.
Double-charging, pay to win, and opening the door to free to play: This feature is a true beauty in its depravity.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 21:23:06 -
[1122] - Quote
Yes, I do agree with you there, Indahmawar. |
Dusty 3allvalve
Generic Reproductions
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 21:30:18 -
[1123] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Subs are falling but [company] doesn't care because they're making bank on the character services. Sorry to take out of context like this, but I have been concerned about this in EvE. Player number's may drop but as long as they have the ones that pay... Don't get me wrong, I love this game. It's just a good point. |
Sarina Aideron
Aideron Corp
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 21:47:57 -
[1124] - Quote
Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity? |
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 22:37:37 -
[1125] - Quote
Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity?
This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1871
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 22:40:17 -
[1126] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with. The skill point trading thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines. So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change. And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though! I still find it interesting that people view PLEX and the Bazaar as "necessary evils." Mainly because they are in no way necessary. CCP could have taken the stance that most other sub based MMOs were taking at the time with a hard no to RMT, but they didn't. They internalized it.
And lets take a look at the results:
Did illegal RMT stop? No, people are still being banned for it.
Did it stop other illicit acts for isk generation like botting? No, people are still being banned for it.
Did it reduce the amount of players benefiting from pay-to-skip style mechanics? It increased that number since it eliminated the barrier of being a bannable offense.
What it did do in a positive fashion is provide a safer means of RMT for isk buyers and creates a benefit for legitimate players in the form of alternate payment options, but it's still RMT. It's also more RMT than illegal methods. And most importantly it's RMT CCP profits from. This certainly isn't necessary, but it does have it's positives. That said PLEX made RMT it more prolific. If you view that as evil, than PLEX is more of a prolific, sanctioned and profitable "evil" than a "necessary evil."
We're using the current state of the game as a defense for this idea, without the self serving and frankly false reasoning that PLEX this is somehow combating RMT as opposed to channeling its profits from it to CCP. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1871
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 22:41:57 -
[1127] - Quote
Cien Banchiere wrote:Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity? This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit Since when does CCP have votes on game decisions other than the CSM members? I'd be surprised if they did take a vote for a decision like this. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1937
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 22:42:46 -
[1128] - Quote
Cien Banchiere wrote:Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity? This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit
It was a done deal when they realeasd the first blog. There was no point in taking a poll as then it would have to be ignored even more blatantly. |
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 23:01:58 -
[1129] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cien Banchiere wrote:Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity? This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit Since when does CCP have votes on game decisions other than the CSM members? I'd be surprised if they did take a vote for a decision like this.
Never heard of surveys I take it. |
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
243
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 23:09:04 -
[1130] - Quote
CCP wants a couple things, other than a cash grab from those willing to shell and shill for SPs.
A quick numbers boost? This will get it. A short term gain, woooo! In exchange it's looking more and more like short term is the only planning going on, tossing out long term gains, let alone any long term stability. It's their company to do with as they wish, their sandbox and it's their choice to run it into the ground if that gives them a giant case of the happys.
For a gaming company that's been out and about as long as CCP, it's got to chafe some hides they're Still a One Hit Wonder.
So if they want to pillage and burn Eve Online customers for cash to back another project, let them. It's their product to mangle after all. To those that told others to sukk in a bottom lip and evolve on FozzieSov changes as some left, told to get better lenses in our glasses after Icongate and some didn't ever come back, and for the diehards that aren't getting how destructive SPs for RL money will be long term and telling those that won't drink the Kool-Ade to HTFU....
Eventually it will be your Shiny on the chopping block. I hope for your sake there's still enough paying attention and interested in pushing back to tell you to sukk it up and deal just like everyone you told off and aren't around to support saving your Shiny.
Not with a Bang, a Rage, or an Implosion.
With a Fade Out.
How will I deal with this SPs for CC numbers? I won't support an insanity like this with my finances. Will Not buy them. Will Not sell them. Will Not use them. If I get one in a gank loot, I'll have to think hard and long on whether to jetcan it some obscure place it or just... Trash It.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1872
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 23:26:46 -
[1131] - Quote
Cien Banchiere wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cien Banchiere wrote:Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity? This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit Since when does CCP have votes on game decisions other than the CSM members? I'd be surprised if they did take a vote for a decision like this. Never heard of surveys I take it. Don't understand the difference between a satisfaction survey and a vote for a mechanic I take it. |
Memphis Baas
982
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 23:36:14 -
[1132] - Quote
Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change?
What's so hard to understand? The absence of a poll is the answer to your question: poll or no poll, everyone loving it or everyone hating it, CCP is implementing this.
If you want to be furious, go ahead, you don't need to wait until they ignore the poll results and implement this anyway. Be furious now.
|
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 23:37:42 -
[1133] - Quote
Since when are surveys specifically for customer satisfaction? When did they get demoted to strictly that function?
As far as I can remember surveys have been used to gauge how customers view new concepts. Companies do it all the time. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1872
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 23:40:54 -
[1134] - Quote
Cien Banchiere wrote:Since when are surveys specifically for customer satisfaction? When did they get demoted to strictly that function?
As far as I can remember surveys have been used to gauge how customers view new concepts. Companies do it all the time. Since when did CCP make a habit of providing other forms of surveys?
Sure, we can talk about expectations of things CCP routinely doesn't do, but how sensible is that? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33239
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 00:08:08 -
[1135] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Arkorina wrote:will character bazaar be removed when skill trading will be introduced? it will be a sad day It's more a case of will anyone put a character up for sale if they can make lots more by selling it piecemeal as injectors I concur. I plan to transfer some SP from my confused marauder / mining booster character, who I bought from bazaar thinking I could make something useful out of her. Plenty more where she came from.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1062
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 01:22:03 -
[1136] - Quote
"I can't fly this ship."
"Stop being poor and buy a skill injector."
"Ugh, **** you guys. I'm going back to playing LoL." |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 01:40:06 -
[1137] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Dibz wrote:Jen Drake wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:and see you guys crying about something that the character bazaar already lets you do. Buying characters and buying SP couldn't be different from each other. If you can't see that then we will all be better off without your posts. They're not that different. The bazaar is just a crude form of SP purchase. "But muh character history, muh consequences"
Look at the characters on the bazaar. Most of them have benign, uncontroversial heritage, with little reputation to speak of. And to be honest, if you're a paranoid recruiter, who are you going to be more suspicious of - the bazaar character or the 1 month old character with a clean slate but 30M SP? The character bazaar was born as a legal alternative to illegal account sharing and/or selling. Same as PLEX was born as a legal alternative to RMT. Selling skillpoints is a completely different beast. It is a money grab from CCP since there is no way in which the service can be obtained without paying CCP for it. They're not fighting the goodfite against shady practices; they're just charging players again for the same skilpoints they already obtained after paying their subscriptions. Also skillpoints are not a temporary commodity like a ship or a module, nor are a cosmetic item without consequences to gameplay. They are a mean to obtain an advantage, and they're 99.99% permanent. Double-charging, pay to win, and opening the door to free to play: This feature is a true beauty in its depravity.
Yeah. That's definitely where I'd draw the line also.
What we often forget about a game with market simulation is that whenever the bar raises, you must either reach it, or lose all your profitability.
If pay to win enables people to raise that bar to a place that cannot practically be reached by any other means (beside paying), then paying is no longer an option. It's a requisite to enjoy the game at all.
If paying becomes the only winning strategy, and exceeds the other concerns by a large enough margin, then it will no longer be a game of strategy at all. It will just be a game of wallets.
... On the other hand, the present situation is that it is a game of "who has been subbed the longest". Where the only way to really win is to have already been here for a long time. If you join late, the only way to catch up is to build a time machine, go back in time, and start a subscription 5+ years ago.
I think CCP's goal is not so much just to make a quick buck (although that is probably part of it). But rather they want it to be possible to expand their player base. Even with the best retention imaginable, the best you can do is 100%. You can't grow your player base without adding newbs. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1873
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 02:40:21 -
[1138] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:"I can't fly this ship."
"Stop being poor and buy a skill injector."
"Ugh, **** you guys. I'm going back to playing LoL." I guess the expectation is that we all become jerks to our allies because of this.
We sound like we're not very fun to play with if that's our expectation. |
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 03:11:07 -
[1139] - Quote
I started to think about this all more positive way since my last posts:
Actually can-¦t wait for new SP trade, I have dormant accounts with lots not needed skillpoints+chars, and almost ready chars for certain stuff not necessary to skill anymore, so I can just start SP farm and pay all my accounts by PLEX, and forgot grinding.
In fact, just start to finally have just fun again... Also more time for Elite and other games, then. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
359
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 05:28:48 -
[1140] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. This made me lol. This troll, posting nonstop, a one-man SP-trading advocacy group, has the nerve to talk about spamming. Where are these supportive stats coming from? Did you count comments? I've seen nothing but overwhelming disapproval and 1st year vets unsubbing. All while much younger players laugh about it and call them names. Good times. My initial reaction was shock that this was even being considered and disbelief when I saw the devblog. And, tbh, I'm still having a difficult time accepting that CCP has chosen to cheapen the game in this way and devalue the time investment of so many players. Because training has been so linear, for players who assign value to their games based on time, its a tough pill to swallow. It makes all that time meaningless. All those years of loyalty... poof. And this is made worse by the lack of communication from CCP. Instead we're left to debate the merits of a done deal with trolls about as smart as turnips. I can't even. I care so much about this game - it literally kills me to see these easymode, want-it-now noobs screeching about what a great change this is b/c they don't have to wait. Wheeeee! They don't even understand what EVE is. Or was, as it were, at this point. You know, I'm hearbroken like I lost a friend (lol) but I'm not quitting over this. I'm not sure what stage of grief I'm on at this point but I'm guessing it's nearer 7 than 1. If EVE is going down in flames, I'll be around for the ride. **** it. Personally, I'm looking forward to the o7 show on Thursday. Where, I expect, we'll actually see LIVE devs speaking about this. I look forward to hearing all about the excitement spreading through the playerbase and the overwhelming support for SP-trading. Really I just hope someone at least tries to sell it to me in a way that makes sense. Because I can't make much sense of it on my own. : / How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes? EVE ONLINE: HTF... oh whatever. I give up. Now back to your regularly-scheduled trolls.... YK i'm a troll? how? everything i said is true. skills do nothing that the character bazaar wont let you do for cheaper. Daniela Doran wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.
the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.
in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most
in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies. That original post was when..around 10-15-15? That's plenty of time for that moron Dave Stark to start up another alt. So I'm betting you and Dave Stark are one and the same. nope. Anabuki and Yaasmine are my characters. but if i use your logic i could claim you use all the other negative nancies. it goes both ways. Well since both you and Dave Stark are morons, I thought you were one and the same. If I'm mistaken then I apologize.
|
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
714
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 05:42:05 -
[1141] - Quote
why all these crap with extractors and injectors and limits? i'd like to go straight to NES and buy clear SP's similar to skins or apparels cause looks like they equalize SP worth similar to those crap. |
mercesedis
The Professional's Club
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 07:16:16 -
[1142] - Quote
Personally I think this is a change that needs to happen for new player access.
For me however I wont have to wait till 2022 to get that last combat skill on my main. Instead I will simply buy the 1000 odd injectors to get me the rest of the way to 326 million skill points, Its expensive but hey its only isk. Don't think I will buy the other 1000 to get to 448 million but maybe I will, after all I can dock the titans up.....
On second thoughts CCP please put in a hard cap on sp's and/or the number of injectors you can use. CCP limited the number of remaps for a reason well limit the number of skill injectors.
But hey this is just my two cents, I am sure this wont be the end of EVE.
Just the end of that anticipation you get when the new ship or module becomes available in 12hs. even now when i can fly most ships i still get that feeling and that enjoyment of taking a new ship out (or an old ship with improved performance) for the first time after the weeks of training. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3163
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 08:16:25 -
[1143] - Quote
Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos.
This is not a signature.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
716
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 08:33:06 -
[1144] - Quote
mercesedis wrote:Personally I think this is a change that needs to happen for new player access.
For me however I wont have to wait till 2022 to get that last combat skill on my main. Instead I will simply buy the 1000 odd injectors to get me the rest of the way to 326 million skill points, Its expensive but hey its only isk. Don't think I will buy the other 1000 to get to 448 million but maybe I will, after all I can dock the titans up.....
On second thoughts CCP please put in a hard cap on sp's and/or the number of injectors you can use. CCP limited the number of remaps for a reason well limit the number of skill injectors.
But hey this is just my two cents, I am sure this wont be the end of EVE.
Just the end of that anticipation you get when the new ship or module becomes available in 12hs. even now when i can fly most ships i still get that feeling and that enjoyment of taking a new ship out (or an old ship with improved performance) for the first time after the weeks of training.
With that simplification of entry level i think they should get rid of t1 stuff as a whole class since we are all focus on better performance where t2 and higher meta are. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1946
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 09:25:09 -
[1145] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:mercesedis wrote:Personally I think this is a change that needs to happen for new player access.
For me however I wont have to wait till 2022 to get that last combat skill on my main. Instead I will simply buy the 1000 odd injectors to get me the rest of the way to 326 million skill points, Its expensive but hey its only isk. Don't think I will buy the other 1000 to get to 448 million but maybe I will, after all I can dock the titans up.....
On second thoughts CCP please put in a hard cap on sp's and/or the number of injectors you can use. CCP limited the number of remaps for a reason well limit the number of skill injectors.
But hey this is just my two cents, I am sure this wont be the end of EVE.
Just the end of that anticipation you get when the new ship or module becomes available in 12hs. even now when i can fly most ships i still get that feeling and that enjoyment of taking a new ship out (or an old ship with improved performance) for the first time after the weeks of training. With that simplification of entry level i think they should get rid of t1 stuff as a whole class since we are all focus on better performance where t2 and higher meta are.
More people buying skills = more demand for tech II = more moon goo demand...no wonder the null groups like this idea. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1873
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 09:34:50 -
[1146] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:mercesedis wrote:Personally I think this is a change that needs to happen for new player access.
For me however I wont have to wait till 2022 to get that last combat skill on my main. Instead I will simply buy the 1000 odd injectors to get me the rest of the way to 326 million skill points, Its expensive but hey its only isk. Don't think I will buy the other 1000 to get to 448 million but maybe I will, after all I can dock the titans up.....
On second thoughts CCP please put in a hard cap on sp's and/or the number of injectors you can use. CCP limited the number of remaps for a reason well limit the number of skill injectors.
But hey this is just my two cents, I am sure this wont be the end of EVE.
Just the end of that anticipation you get when the new ship or module becomes available in 12hs. even now when i can fly most ships i still get that feeling and that enjoyment of taking a new ship out (or an old ship with improved performance) for the first time after the weeks of training. With that simplification of entry level i think they should get rid of t1 stuff as a whole class since we are all focus on better performance where t2 and higher meta are. That seems like a bad idea for a few reasons.
1) Not every application needs or justifies faction, leaving T1 as a low cost option and workaround to not having access to or fitting for T2 2) Buying ones way to T2 everything would be quite expensive 3) It actually broaches the line from making this an option to making it a mandate since faction mods will have a massively inflated cost for anyone who can't use T2.
As an FYI, I don't know how much SP mercesedis has, but for my best character at ~150m SP an estimate of the SP cost translated to isk @ current PLEX prices it would be ~419B isk to reach his 326million SP. That's without factoring in any extractor cost. Not sure if the math is completely right, but I came to $5,100 to fund that through PLEX purchases from CCP. Hardly a reasonable proposal for making a wide sweeping change on an optional feature. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1948
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 10:22:29 -
[1147] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:More people buying skills = more demand for tech II = more moon goo demand...no wonder the null groups like this idea. So you think they're assuming EvE players all have a great abundance of playtime to grind isk and/or thousands of dollars to spend making that actually work out in any appreciable manner? Or further that with the games SP system and near 13 years of veteran training that they aren't already reaping the rewards of a largely T2 dependent playerbase?
I'm not assuming anything here but do believe that CCP are hoping for new players to whip out the CC to get into tech II frigs and cruisers faster. As you say not every application is suited to tech II ( I love my gila with fed navy drones for instance), but new players will most likely not know this and assume higher tech = better.
As for the vets already reaping the rewards of moon goo do you really think they wouldn't be in favour of even a 10% increase in demand?
Note that I expect a likewise upward pressure on use of tech III too. Whilst yhis would benefit me as a tech III manufacturer I still intensely dislike the whole SP trading idea |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4565
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 10:31:47 -
[1148] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:(...) I still find it interesting that people view PLEX and the Bazaar as "necessary evils." Mainly because they are in no way necessary. CCP could have taken the stance that most other sub based MMOs were taking at the time with a hard no to RMT, but they didn't. They internalized it.
Wow, so much Wrong in one post!
Let's see. Gold trading is something every MMO faces. As long as players can trade ingame money, some people will try to buy it for real money. That leads to ~many issues~ and so MMO companies try to curb that behavior.
And in that particular aspect, CCP is top notch. First, CCP's policy on bans is the harshest around. If you sell gold in WoW, that account is banend temproally. On second strike, it's banned forever. Well then, CCP's politics for sellers is to ban ALL ACCOUNTS forever. And buyers get exactly the same fate on second strike. This leads to funny comments form gold traders who can't believe that CCP actually Concordokked all their accounts...
Next, PLEX is the best anti-RMT tool ever developed and implemented by a open trading MMO. PLEX is a legitimate alternative to obtaining ISK for cash, and it works the best when PLEX is high and haves a lot of value. A high PLEX means that gold sellers must give more ISK per dollar, and that's a battle which gold traders have been losing for years. The RMT price for 1 billion ISK has been dropping each year, and currently is so low that some traders are leaving the market because EVE is not profitable enough. Mind you, gold farmer characters have a cost, and losing them all each time CCP catches a seller is a PITA for sellers.
So PLEX has been extremely successful. And the higher it rises, the better it becomes. Bought from CCP, 20 $ used to yield a paltry 350 million ISK... now it's 1.2 billion ISK. As I said, that is driving sellers out of market as CCP Security hits them on both ends: catching them faster and curbing their profit from selling ISK.
(Note: thanks to Nosy Gamer for his blog, whcih is a invalauble resource for those interested in RMT and EVE).
Second, right until now PLEX gave no "pay to win" advantages since all you could buy with ISK was temporary. Stuff that could be destroyed, and in the case of some deep pocket noobs, was destroyed in hilariously awful ways. Right until now, buying PLEX wouldn't give any permanent advantage over not buying it.
Skill trading is going to change that and will turn "successful necessary evils" into "failure inducting evil". There's only so many reasons why a company undertakes such a change, and none of them leads to Success.
Skill trading is going to diminish the value of subscription. Paying a subscription will be a worst option than paying a subscription and buy SPs. That's a fatal hit to the subscription model, but then CCP accidentally bought a new server more than ready to handle F2P crowds.
No, they haven't said a word. But it's what they are doing.
And what, oh what will we do when EVE becomes F2P?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Demica Diaz
SE-1
189
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 10:57:47 -
[1149] - Quote
I came to the realization of "big picture" behind this Skill Trade feature. Its World of Darkness set in EVE Online! Imagine all those poor alts sucked dry of skill points for their main overlords. ...dark times ahead for some. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1948
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 11:08:17 -
[1150] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:I came to the realization of "big picture" behind this Skill Trade feature. Its World of Darkness set in EVE Online! Imagine all those poor alts sucked dry of skill points for their main overlords. ...dark times ahead for some.
More like 'Return of the Living Dead'...BRAINZZZZZZZZ! |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1873
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 11:46:57 -
[1151] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Wow, so much Wrong in one post! Let's see. Gold trading is something every MMO faces. As long as players can trade ingame money, some people will try to buy it for real money. That leads to ~many issues~ and so MMO companies try to curb that behavior. And in that particular aspect, CCP is top notch. First, CCP's policy on bans is the harshest around. If you sell gold in WoW, that account is banned temporally. On second strike, it's banned forever. Well then, CCP's politics for sellers is to ban ALL ACCOUNTS forever. And buyers get exactly the same fate on second strike. This leads to funny comments from gold traders who can't believe that CCP actually Concordokked all their accounts... Next, PLEX is the best anti-RMT tool ever developed and implemented by a open trading MMO. PLEX is a legitimate alternative to obtaining ISK for cash, and it works the best when PLEX is high and haves a lot of value, by cutting the profit of sellers. A high PLEX means that gold sellers must give more ISK per dollar, and that's a battle which gold traders have been losing for years. The RMT price for 1 billion ISK has been dropping each year, and currently is so low that some traders are leaving the market because EVE is not profitable enough. Mind you, gold farmer characters have a cost, and losing them all each time CCP catches a seller is a PITA for sellers. So PLEX has been extremely successful. And the higher it rises, the better it becomes. Bought from CCP, 20 $ used to yield a paltry 350 million ISK... now it's 1.2 billion ISK. As I said, that is driving sellers out of market as CCP Security hits them on both ends: catching them faster and curbing their profit from selling ISK. (Note: thanks to Nosy Gamer for his blog, whcih is a invalauble resource for those interested in RMT and EVE). Second, right until now PLEX gave no "pay to win" advantages since all you could buy with ISK was temporary. Stuff that could be destroyed, and in the case of some deep pocket noobs, was destroyed in hilariously awful ways. Right until now, buying PLEX wouldn't give any permanent advantage over not buying it. Skill trading is going to change that and will turn "successful necessary evils" into "failure inducting evil". There's only so many reasons why a company undertakes such a change, and none of them leads to Success. Skill trading is going to diminish the value of subscription. Paying a subscription will be a worst option than paying a subscription and buy SPs. That's a fatal hit to the subscription model, but then CCP accidentally bought a new server more than ready to handle F2P crowds. No, they haven't said a word. But it's what they are doing. And what, oh what will we do when EVE implements F2P? The least you could do when trying to call someone out as wrong is be right yourself.
PLEX isn't anti RMT. PLEX is RMT. Being legitimate or illegitimate isn't the mark of RMT, trading real money for currency or items in game that would otherwise have to be earner from that player in the game is. And that's exactly what PLEX does.
I won't argue that PLEX is not successful for what it is, but I will continue to call out what it is not, and what it is not is a means to combat RMT. It's a means for CCP to profit from RMT. Also it could be said that the reason for the harsh stance against other RMT'ers comes in part from the fact that their direct competitors on top of other potential issues usually rooted in fraud or account stealing. Either way though, the fact that CCP is harsh on other isk sellers doesn't mean they themselves aren't doing it.
To be blunt, what we have is an honest RMT dealer in CCP through PLEX. They aren't using PLEX to combat or win an RMT war, their instead choosing not to fight it, but complicitly control the RMT in game instead.
Also it should be noted that the gains that in theory come from removing RMT can't be realized in Eve so long as PLEX exists because of the reality of what it is.
Regarding SP trade specifically, the situation is actually the opposite of what you state. Without PLEX and a hardline BAN of RMT the situation of P2Progress is eliminated in full. Further still, since isk is the method of sale for skill injectors and earnable in game it doesn't actually create a paid vs non-paid divide regarding who can pursue this advantage.
The notion of paying a sub being diminished is also entirely wrong and will continue to be until, should it actually ever happen, the change away from subs is made. Until then what a sub does in full can't actually be replaced by tradable SP. Also it's been addressed why the hardware doesn't need to have anything to do with F2P crowds, and everything to do with the fact that single node capacity, rather than cluster wide, is the important measure of performance, which we currently do max out in large engagements.
I do see you're convinced F2P is coming, though by what reasoning I'm not sure. Opposite to your conclusion, it's actually going F2P that devalues subs, and for that matter PLEX and CCP didn't set up for SP to come through a direct sale from them. I'm not sure what you think CCP is going to sell to run the game when it's not game time or SP.
What method of monetization of the game are you envisioning here? What are they actually selling in this prediction of yours? |
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
92
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 13:13:47 -
[1152] - Quote
If CCP intend to go through with skill trading, it should be time limited, Example you can only inject 1 or 2 skill packets per week. This is to prevent rich players with more money than brains from instantly maxing out a character with every skill in the game fully trained.
There are 1,000's of players who have spent years, even decades training up their characters who can now be instantly overtaken in sp in a matter of minutes.
Do I feel cheated? absolutely.
Last time CCP tried to introduce PTW in the form of remaps for Plex they got shot down in flames and abandoned the feature. Now they are introducing the ability to purchase SP and completely obsoleting the attribute and remap features of the game.
Something they promised would never happen.
I will not be renewing my 3 subs when they expire. after over 10 years, Eve has run its course for me and its time to move on.
It was fun while it lasted.
Best of luck to those sticking around. |
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 13:38:25 -
[1153] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos.
Nice one. If CCP do not alter their marketing concept accordingly, Eve OnLIE would also come to mind.
Hard to believe they will actually go through with this. Risking their USP and the good reputation of their CEO seems reckless.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
|
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
162
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 13:44:23 -
[1154] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos. Nice one. If CCP do not alter their marketing concept accordingly, Eve OnLIE would also come to mind. Hard to believe they will actually go through with this. Risking their USP and the good reputation of their CEO seems reckless.
It is the "Make as much cash as possible to continue holding up Valkyrie while we wait for OR headsets to drop in price to a place where people will actually buy them" tactic.
Eve Online is a cash farmer now for CCP, has been for a while. |
Memphis Baas
983
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 14:29:13 -
[1155] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos.
Well it's already Spreadsheets Online, so maybe they just add a sub-title, "Spreadsheets Online, Now With Direct Wallet Transactions" (SONWiDiWaT). |
Darth Behelzebhu
Lair of Demons
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 16:00:05 -
[1156] - Quote
Such a complicated and unnecessary mechanic on this
Why not simply sell SP injectors in the NES store? with a reasonable cap, and a timer.
Make a little square window in the characters sheets with 10 slots, can't use more than that. Every injector is worth "X" amount of sp depending on the cap. Timer can be set same for all, 1month, 2 months, etc. Or based on toon age, where new players still have to wait to get all injectors, and not killing the new player experience besides of setting a reasonable cap to avoid the P2W, just a bit of boost and help, and CCP can profit from it as well.
Cap could be set anything between 20 to 50mill; timers 1-3 months, depending on cap and size of SP injector; based on Toon age or just usage same for all.
I'm gonna set an example using a cap of 30mill SP, and a timer based on toon age.
You'll get max 10 injectors, each worth 3mill SP; which is in average 2 months worth of training; so you need to wait those 2 months to inject the second, but this will effectively almost double up the SP you can get on those months. Cost then should be same worth of 2 PLEX A new player can inject upon creation a 3mill SP boost; but can't inject the second one till after 2 months (avg training) so they have the possibility of doubling their SP. Will take them 20 months to be able to inject them all, older toons can inject all at once. So a 9 month old toon, will be able to inject 5 boosts, and have to wait for next
------------------------------------------------------- G=Green, can be used. R=Red, not available yet. X=Used GX -ª GX -ª GX -ª G -ª G -ª R -ª R -ª R -ª R -ª R - This will be a 9 months old toon that injected 3 boosters, can inject 2 more, and ------------------------------------------------------- then wait to be able to get the others
This is just an example, timers, cap, cost, is just an idea,
New players will be able to get a well needed boost of sp, without totally murdering the new player experience, and the learning curve, or becoming a P2W thing (as atm there's no cap for this), hopefully will reduce the initial frustration of having to wait TOO long at start to get in a little bigger ship. Every toon can use the injectors, and being sold in NES store, also every toon will have the option to pay isk if some other player takes them into market. CCP will get their cash injection from it, (let's not forget for them is a business, and as long as they profit , we will have our loved game) Hope this is a much simpler mechanic and coding
EVERYBODY WINS |
A Ingus
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 16:57:11 -
[1157] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote: Anticipation of a reward is always a longer lasting incentive than the reward itself and the people who originally made eve knew this. It is why EVE has lasted this long.
The retention numbers of players with max Level 5 skills and capitals etc are but a fraction of the paying subscribed player base of eve. They got all the rewards available and found the rewards were not even close to as enjoyable as the journey and anticipation to get those rewards.
so go ahead CCP. Turn a 40,000 player base into a 1000 player base after you give everyone access to everything.
You will think this gold rush of CASH EXTRACTION is unending right up to the point that in no time at all all those people you fleeced find they wasted their time as the game was just as fun or more fun with low SP than it was with high SP and no one has anything to look forward to anymore.
This is pathetic and sad and a total betrayal to everyone who cared anything about this game on so many levels. Totally correct. CCP probably knows this though. But apparently they need this hail mary cash grab very badly now.
CCP seems to think this first step foray into pay to win (or more appropriately called pay to progress in a different manner than paying for a subscription) microtransactions will somehow net them more accounts than it will lose them. Or that the money they might make from this mechanic will outweigh any lost revenue from lost accounts. I think it wont net them what they think. But then I just have my intuition, the same thing all the other posters, including the fanbois Mr. Franklin and Ms. Fera. Who btw seem to have been very early in on this thread, very invested in the introduction of this mechanic, and thus continue the posting deluge they are engaged in.
Alternately the current owners of the company are taking an incremental approach to chucking the subscription and time based skill system. These TSPs are just the first obvious step in that direction. And they think that reconfiguring the game to pay to progress will somehow result in a huge number of players, and huge enough revenue, that will enable them to sell the game with whatever profit they are hoping for.
Whatever is behind this destruction of the fundamentals of the game, it doesn't matter. I had 4 accounts at one point. After mid February I will have 0.
I would encourage everyone who is upset with this disgusting alteration to the base mechanism of the game to vote with your feet as well. It is the only thing the company understands. But I can appreciate those that find it hard to leave. It has been a great game for so many years. And that it will no longer be so, is very sad.
Here is hoping some company somewhere learns the lessons correctly in all this and creates an equally or better game. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 17:00:59 -
[1158] - Quote
Darth Behelzebhu wrote:Such a complicated and unnecessary mechanic on this
Why not simply sell SP injectors in the NES store? with a reasonable cap, and a timer.
Make a little square window in the characters sheets with 10 slots, can't use more than that. Every injector is worth "X" amount of sp depending on the cap. Timer can be set same for all, 1month, 2 months, etc. Or based on toon age, where new players still have to wait to get all injectors, and not killing the new player experience besides of setting a reasonable cap to avoid the P2W, just a bit of boost and help, and CCP can profit from it as well.
Cap could be set anything between 20 to 50mill; timers 1-3 months, depending on cap and size of SP injector; based on Toon age or just usage same for all.
I'm gonna set an example using a cap of 30mill SP, and a timer based on toon age.
You'll get max 10 injectors, each worth 3mill SP; which is in average 2 months worth of training; so you need to wait those 2 months to inject the second, but this will effectively almost double up the SP you can get on those months. Cost then should be same worth of 2 PLEX A new player can inject upon creation a 3mill SP boost; but can't inject the second one till after 2 months (avg training) so they have the possibility of doubling their SP. Will take them 20 months to be able to inject them all, older toons can inject all at once. So a 9 month old toon, will be able to inject 5 boosts, and have to wait for next
------------------------------------------------------- G=Green, can be used. R=Red, not available yet. X=Used GX -ª GX -ª GX -ª G -ª G -ª R -ª R -ª R -ª R -ª R - This will be a 9 months old toon that injected 3 boosters, can inject 2 more, and ------------------------------------------------------- then wait to be able to get the others
This is just an example, timers, cap, cost, is just an idea,
New players will be able to get a well needed boost of sp, without totally murdering the new player experience, and the learning curve, or becoming a P2W thing (as atm there's no cap for this), hopefully will reduce the initial frustration of having to wait TOO long at start to get in a little bigger ship. Every toon can use the injectors, and being sold in NES store, also every toon will have the option to pay isk if some other player takes them into market. CCP will get their cash injection from it, (let's not forget for them is a business, and as long as they profit , we will have our loved game) Hope this is a much simpler mechanic and coding
EVERYBODY WINS ^ this
i recommended this a few pages back as a solution
but sadly the negative nancies ignored that post (despite reposting it twice) and continued dooms day calling |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 17:15:41 -
[1159] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
More people buying skills = more demand for tech II = more moon goo demand...no wonder the null groups like this idea.
They'll regret it!
I think a lot of what keeps so many players in high sec is newbs and/or alts playing in a safe place while they wait for their skills to get high enough to effective in null-sec warfare. Once that barrier is gone, I think more players will venture out into the wild null lands.
Their goo will be worth more, but they'll have to fight harder to keep it.
Darth Behelzebhu wrote:Such a complicated and unnecessary mechanic on this
Why not simply sell SP injectors in the NES store? with a reasonable cap, and a timer.
Make a little square window in the characters sheets with 10 slots, can't use more than that. Every injector is worth "X" amount of sp depending on the cap. Timer can be set same for all, 1month, 2 months, etc. Or based on toon age, where new players still have to wait to get all injectors, and not killing the new player experience besides of setting a reasonable cap to avoid the P2W, just a bit of boost and help, and CCP can profit from it as well.
Cap could be set anything between 20 to 50mill; timers 1-3 months, depending on cap and size of SP injector; based on Toon age or just usage same for all.
I'm gonna set an example using a cap of 30mill SP, and a timer based on toon age.
You'll get max 10 injectors, each worth 3mill SP; which is in average 2 months worth of training; so you need to wait those 2 months to inject the second, but this will effectively almost double up the SP you can get on those months. Cost then should be same worth of 2 PLEX A new player can inject upon creation a 3mill SP boost; but can't inject the second one till after 2 months (avg training) so they have the possibility of doubling their SP. Will take them 20 months to be able to inject them all, older toons can inject all at once. So a 9 month old toon, will be able to inject 5 boosts, and have to wait for next
------------------------------------------------------- G=Green, can be used. R=Red, not available yet. X=Used GX -ª GX -ª GX -ª G -ª G -ª R -ª R -ª R -ª R -ª R - This will be a 9 months old toon that injected 3 boosters, can inject 2 more, and ------------------------------------------------------- then wait to be able to get the others
This is just an example, timers, cap, cost, is just an idea,
New players will be able to get a well needed boost of sp, without totally murdering the new player experience, and the learning curve, or becoming a P2W thing (as atm there's no cap for this), hopefully will reduce the initial frustration of having to wait TOO long at start to get in a little bigger ship. Every toon can use the injectors, and being sold in NES store, also every toon will have the option to pay isk if some other player takes them into market. CCP will get their cash injection from it, (let's not forget for them is a business, and as long as they profit , we will have our loved game) Hope this is a much simpler mechanic and coding
EVERYBODY WINS
The cap could be set by a skill. "Informorph Training" or something like that. The higher your skill, the more extractors/injectors you can use per month.
Limiting it is a very good idea! That way the long time veterans still get some advantage for their longtime sub, but a new player can gradually catch up also.
I don't want to see a new player starting a character and hitting 80 mil sp in a week. But I think it's ok if a new player has a way to catch up with an 80 mil sp character over the course of a few years. |
Adolf Mekansm
Tardigrade
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 17:21:19 -
[1160] - Quote
I answered after everyone but i cant' stay muted in front of this kind of "change".
You know, CCP, Eve is a very particular game. That's why most of us are here, and why this is one of few games with sub that survived 5+ years.
But you're on the edge of a big mistake. And you won't be able to come back after this one... Pls, think !!!
Why is it wrong :
- Injector will be expensive, obviosly more than the equivalent in SP of a plex - Injectif will be mainly use on unfocused or young caracter (car they're less used, and cheap). - Injector are made to "help" rookie
BUT :
- This will vanish all unfocused low SP caracter of the bazarr => The ones that' are mainly bough by young player, cause they're cheap !! - This will increae the gap between veteran & rookie, cause veteran will have the isk to buy a lot of injectif and rookie may be tempted to sell a few SP to some isk ! - Rookie will prefer sell there SP than plex, cause injectof + plew will, for the same amount of "real money" give them more isk !
So it'll injure young ppl and advantage the old one !!!!
The exact oposite that you went !!!!!
I implore you....
tl;dr
You finally made me unsub. And i'm very sad to do this. But you're killing your game... |
|
Hirisho Presolana
The Rogue Shades
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 17:25:20 -
[1161] - Quote
will it make sense also to have a sort of remapping items that can extract SP from you and remap only to your character?
for example in the very beginning i've trained a few skills that honestly i never use.. it would be cool if one could extract those skill and reinject to you without losing them.. maybe with a limited use, like 1 per year... so people does not use them to continuosly remap their character twice per day depending on what they are about to do..
those are still SP you paied for, right?
i mean.. not that a couple of lvl3 skills can make the difference.. |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
62
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 18:28:44 -
[1162] - Quote
Remember when you first joined Eve? Remember the excitment of learning a new game? Remember playing with different ship fittings, getting it wrong and often failing and learning the hard way? Remember having to use what little you had to earn the next ship and how good it felt once you trained the necessary skills?
Well, you can soon say good buy to all that waiting with insta-play. Just get your credit card out.
Want to join that Big Alliance but don't have the SP? No problem, Just get your credit card out.
Need a couple of emergency Cyno alts instantly? No problem, Just get your credit card out.
Seriously, this is the message that new players will see and may even feel pressured to buy SP.
If the sand box isn't big enough just get the credit card out and buy more sand.
The only way a new player will be able to afford this sold 'SP' will be by credit card. Buy PLEX, sell PLEX & buy SP. The only other player type who could afford this with in game earnt ISK are veterens who want to redistribute their SP into new chars.
CCP state this is to give new chars a boost in the game but true new players (not new alts) will only be able to do this buy buying and selling plex for real cash to be able to afford the SP on the market. So yes, it could assist new player but thats just masking the fact that its another avenue to earn cash. I understand you are a business and need to earn cash and make profit but this approach is questionable in my eyes purely because i don't think you have the support of the main player base.
What do we think the question was that started the SP trading discussion at CCP? Was it:
1) How can we help new players in the game?
or
2) How can we get another revenue stream in the game?
I think 2016 will be an interesting year but i am not sure in what context....time will tell. I hope Eve thrives, attracts new players and starts to grow its player base again. Personally the SP trading mechanic is not sitting well with me and making me question what else is around the microtransaction corner and whether i want to be a part of it. For now i will sit and watch and see what unfolds in the next 3 months. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 19:25:44 -
[1163] - Quote
King Aires wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos. Nice one. If CCP do not alter their marketing concept accordingly, Eve OnLIE would also come to mind. Hard to believe they will actually go through with this. Risking their USP and the good reputation of their CEO seems reckless. It is the "Make as much cash as possible to continue holding up Valkyrie while we wait for OR headsets to drop in price to a place where people will actually buy them" tactic. Eve Online is a cash farmer now for CCP, has been for a while.
CCP's income has been steadily increasing - even with fluctuating player (sign-in) numbers they have maintained growth in subscription income even within an unstable economic environment.
You are assuming that CCP will continue to use a large proportion of EVE profits to fund R&D of Valkyrie - This seems a little redundant - I think the opposite will be the case since they got an influx of R&D funds for VR development November 2015 and the $30 million raised will sit nicely with the cash sale of code from the failed Vampire MMO (which was already a tax write-off for them due to how European tax laws work with R&D)
-- So cash for holding up Valkyrie is a non-starter as an argument |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 20:03:35 -
[1164] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Would CCP consider sending out a mail to all active accounts and poll whether this SP mechanic should be introduced into the game and then post the results of the Poll?
This will show the player base response. If the community vote 'Yes' then i personally would continue supporting the game and my subscription knowing that it was a community backed but if the answer was 'No' and it was rolled out regardless then we would know what our views and feeling on this issue are worth. Of course they wouldn't. If they had any interest at all in listening to the player base, they would have dropped this idea right after the first blog post. Hell, they wouldn't have come up with it in the first place. It's completely asinine and goes against everything that EVE has represented since its conception. The fact that they even considered this for longer than 5 seconds, let alone actually decided to implement it despite the overwhelming outcry from the community, shows how far out of touch they are with the community and the very game that they are developing.
Their "We welcome all your feedback, thank you!" statement is an absurd joke, which should be evident to anyone who possesses at least a single brain cell and saw the response to the initial blog post. They even confirm how much of a joke it is by going on to say "the design hasnGÇÖt changed in any big ways since our last blog".
Quote:We decided to be fairly hands off and see where it would lead without us trying to persuade anyone. We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players. You're being hands off and not trying to persuade anyone, you just decided to implement it despite the overwhelmingly negative response. It quickly became clear that many of us were able to see the potential benefits?! What the **** am I even reading here, how is it even possible for someone to have their head so far up their ass to cause this kind of tunnel vision?
Don't even get me started on the "help bring in newer players" gem. It's abundantly clear to everyone with any knowledge of the game that this won't do jack **** to bring in newer players, and that it has no intention of doing so. It's clearly a desperate attempt to make a quick buck at the expense of defiling the essence of EVE and the very thing that sets it apart from every other pay to win/grind to win ****** MMO out there.
I can't even imagine how any of the long-time developers could be on board with this, it must be pressure from higher-ups who have no interest in the game anyway and see it as just another corporate revenue stream, a soulless product to be sucked dry and then discarded in the hopes that they will strike big with some other mediocre pet-project for XY platform.
A few of you players in here mentioned we should go out and shoot a monument in protest. It seems like a good idea until you realize it's pointless. If they are just casually moving ahead with this despite everything that has been said about it until now, do you honestly think CCP would care? To them it would have no meaning, no underlying message. They see it as just game assets shooting at game assets, meaningless models, textures and mechanics to be raped, pillaged and desecrated for profit whenever and however possible.
They no longer see it as an entire world, a living, breathing entity which is only alive when all of us are playing it. When you alienate the very players that give it life, all you are left with is an empty shell, a bunch of code sitting on a hard drive on some server somewhere.
I don't even know why I'm bothering at this point. There's none so blind as those who will not see. The ones responsible for pushing this change aren't reading this anyway, and those within CCP that were ordered to do this despite them not wanting it either will stay quiet to keep their jobs. At least until it all collapses under their feet anyway. And at that point, they'll remember this post and all the others that came before it, but it will be too late, and one of the greatest games off all times will be nothing but history.
To any of you at CCP who are reading this and see this change for what it is, I implore you to flat-out steal the source code and keep it safe until CCP Games inevitably collapses in the next year or two, so we at least have a hope of resurrecting EVE at some point in the future. Otherwise it will be lost forever which would be nothing less than a tragedy.
To those of you planning to stay and use this, I wish you the best of luck in using and abusing it. Have fun and enjoy it while you still can, it won't be for long. As soon as this goes live, you are all passengers on a sinking ship.
To everyone who ever blapped me or got blapped by me, it was a privilege meeting you, exchanging ammunition and generating NaCl. May we meet on another battlefield.
Goodnight, sweet prince o7 |
Zombeilord Zantra
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 20:21:10 -
[1165] - Quote
I think it would be a fine idea, I mean if people don't like the idea then everyone whould boycott the extractors and don't pull any Skill points out of their charcters no matter what, but I been looking about the webs and seen many people upset and many who are for it, some people who have said they will resub because of it, and some who do not like the wait and quite eve because of it, the ones in null may be weary of it or more for it is also a split. If one thinks about it, this will and can change the tipping point of control just for null sec space, when I see it, it's not that people say its pay to win, but its that it is a new change and people tend to hate change who are acustomed to the old ways, not thinking about the possiblities of the new or the thought on how good it could be.
But I can see it being used mostly to get new players to pump the core skills to level 5 more then anything and we have yet to see the final product.
Course in the end we all will have wait and see how it interacts within the world of eve. It's just a coin flip in the end. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
389
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 23:09:14 -
[1166] - Quote
Adolf Mekansm wrote:IBut you're on the edge of a big mistake. And you won't be able to come back after this one... Pls, think !!! CCP have been going down this route of gradually dumbing things down and trying to add in additional micro-transaction for quite a while now. To be honest it is probably too late for them to turn back as they have dug themselves a hole with no route back. Monetisation and dumbing down the mechanics have become embedded in their design ethos and personnel. Almost all of the old guard within CCP have long gone now.
If I reflect back then it was the introduction of SKINs which actually was turning point for me, a feature I had very much wanted, but to find that the hundreds of pounds in subscription money that I had already paid CCP wasn't enough, and instead they were going to introduce a completely dumbed down version of ship paint schemes in order that they could easily monetise it. Basically it was the first sign that monetisation was skewing the development decisions. Having indestructible items in eve is the polar opposite to the core principles of the game, much like selling SP is.
But guess what, the solid fundamental game design which has kept eve living and breathing throughout all these years is an inconvenience and so is expendable in the pursuit of further monetisation and greed.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4574
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 23:26:55 -
[1167] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:King Aires wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos. Nice one. If CCP do not alter their marketing concept accordingly, Eve OnLIE would also come to mind. Hard to believe they will actually go through with this. Risking their USP and the good reputation of their CEO seems reckless. It is the "Make as much cash as possible to continue holding up Valkyrie while we wait for OR headsets to drop in price to a place where people will actually buy them" tactic. Eve Online is a cash farmer now for CCP, has been for a while. CCP's income has been steadily increasing - even with fluctuating player (sign-in) numbers they have maintained growth in subscription income even within an unstable economic environment. You are assuming that CCP will continue to use a large proportion of EVE profits to fund R&D of Valkyrie - This seems a little redundant - I think the opposite will be the case since they got an influx of R&D funds for VR development November 2015 and the $30 million raised will sit nicely with the cash sale of code from the failed Vampire MMO (which was already a tax write-off for them due to how European tax laws work with R&D) -- So cash for holding up Valkyrie is a non-starter as an argument
CCP is doing this for money. That defeats the arguments that EVE is doing well...
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
720
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 23:36:57 -
[1168] - Quote
Zombeilord Zantra wrote:I think it would be a fine idea, I mean if people don't like the idea then everyone whould boycott the extractors and don't pull any Skill points out of their charcters no matter what, but I been looking about the webs and seen many people upset and many who are for it, some people who have said they will resub because of it, and some who do not like the wait and quite eve because of it, the ones in null may be weary of it or more for it is also a split. If one thinks about it, this will and can change the tipping point of control just for null sec space, when I see it, it's not that people say its pay to win, but its that it is a new change and people tend to hate change who are acustomed to the old ways, not thinking about the possiblities of the new or the thought on how good it could be.
But I can see it being used mostly to get new players to pump the core skills to level 5 more then anything and we have yet to see the final product.
Course in the end we all will have wait and see how it interacts within the world of eve. It's just a coin flip in the end.
This is not for new players. This feature is for immediate build of perfect alts. Or those who had already trained majority of skills to lvl 4 (talking here of skills with Rank 6 and >; where the main time consumption factor appears) and training ones up would take not less than 3 weeks which easily stack into months |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 23:46:05 -
[1169] - Quote
They might be doing it for new player retention, also.
Probably the main reason I didn't get tired of being permanently under-skilled and burn out early is because I got a super-overtime job working 60 hours a week with rare days off (often 14 days apart), and didn't have time to play anyway. So I kept my subscriptions active and logged on just to keep my skill que up, but didn't play much otherwise.
So now that I finally have time to play, my characters have been getting skills for over a year and they can actually fly some decent ships with decent skills.
If there is a cool-down on injector use, then newbs won't catch up with veterans (which is good, because that way veterans get treated better as they should.) But it also allows newbs not to get bored with their character being bad at everything. They can do short train skills mostly while they're playing, and get a single long train skill (1x anyway) every week or so via an injector.
It gets frustrating waiting for long train skills when you don't even have your basic foundation skills in place yet. |
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 23:56:18 -
[1170] - Quote
This is the worst thing you can possibly do to Eve CCP. What's happening with you people at CCP, are you giving up on Eve?? |
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
373
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 00:05:21 -
[1171] - Quote
Dyner wrote:This works :D
Been saying for years there needs to be a way to speed up training. It's so boring and frustrating to have the ISK, but still need "3 months 17 days 7 hours" until you can even get into that shiny new ship. -- By the time I finished training for some of the ships I was already past the desire to fly them.
*goes back to ship spinning whole waiting on more skills to finish*
Yeesssss, I bet this makes you feel very proud doesn't it. Now Eve losers like you finally have a chance to win Eve.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 00:22:19 -
[1172] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Dyner wrote:This works :D
Been saying for years there needs to be a way to speed up training. It's so boring and frustrating to have the ISK, but still need "3 months 17 days 7 hours" until you can even get into that shiny new ship. -- By the time I finished training for some of the ships I was already past the desire to fly them.
*goes back to ship spinning whole waiting on more skills to finish* Yeesssss, I bet this makes you feel very proud doesn't it. Now Eve losers like you finally have a chance to win Eve. hurry up and quit already if your so against it
that way we can stop having your toxicity polluting the forums
this change will in fact help new players ALOT. and stop people from leaving game cause they dont feel like logging in due to a 2 week training queue, despite having tons of isk.
when players leave game, thye get addicted ot new games, and forget EVE.
this change lets them stay, earning isk to speed up training (like EXP in normal games. skill training for doing crap) |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
374
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 00:33:01 -
[1173] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dyner wrote:This works :D
Been saying for years there needs to be a way to speed up training. It's so boring and frustrating to have the ISK, but still need "3 months 17 days 7 hours" until you can even get into that shiny new ship. -- By the time I finished training for some of the ships I was already past the desire to fly them.
*goes back to ship spinning whole waiting on more skills to finish* Yeesssss, I bet this makes you feel very proud doesn't it. Now Eve losers like you finally have a chance to win Eve. hurry up and quit already if your so against it that way we can stop having your toxicity polluting the forums this change will in fact help new players ALOT. and stop people from leaving game cause they dont feel like logging in due to a 2 week training queue, despite having tons of isk. when players leave game, thye get addicted ot new games, and forget EVE. this change lets them stay, earning isk to speed up training (like EXP in normal games. skill training for doing crap)
Listen suga, I'll say and post as I dam well please. If you don't like then you either make me shut up or leave the dam forums.
I'm pissed because I'm just been ripped off after resubbing all my accounts 1 week before CCP made this final decision and I'm not gonna stay quite about it. But fear not, I'll be leaving this game soon enough....after I get my monies worth (or if CCP would be so kind as to give me a refund but I know that's not gonna happen) |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 00:44:40 -
[1174] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dyner wrote:This works :D
Been saying for years there needs to be a way to speed up training. It's so boring and frustrating to have the ISK, but still need "3 months 17 days 7 hours" until you can even get into that shiny new ship. -- By the time I finished training for some of the ships I was already past the desire to fly them.
*goes back to ship spinning whole waiting on more skills to finish* Yeesssss, I bet this makes you feel very proud doesn't it. Now Eve losers like you finally have a chance to win Eve. hurry up and quit already if your so against it that way we can stop having your toxicity polluting the forums this change will in fact help new players ALOT. and stop people from leaving game cause they dont feel like logging in due to a 2 week training queue, despite having tons of isk. when players leave game, thye get addicted ot new games, and forget EVE. this change lets them stay, earning isk to speed up training (like EXP in normal games. skill training for doing crap) Listen suga, I'll say and post as I dam well please. If you don't like then you either make me shut up or leave the dam forums. I'm pissed because I'm just been ripped off after resubbing all my accounts 1 week before CCP made this final decision and I'm not gonna stay quite about it. But fear not, I'll be leaving this game soon enough....after I get my monies worth (or if CCP would be so kind as to give me a refund but I know that's not gonna happen)
its coming to the game.
you can cry all you want. but your not gonna change that. because majority of people on reddit/facebook/fanfest support it.
and considering how few people use forums compared to the other media. you need to understand how small you are.
this change will help new players immensely.
if you have an issue with it, you can suggest solutions. but removing it isn't going to happen as removing the solution to one problem doesnt fix anything
and suggestions are why the thread is here.
for example, a few times in this thread people have suggested limits.
including a limited number you can use per month, or 6 months. increasable by infromorph
or limiting the total number of SP u can have and still use it (the person said you can no longer use it after 50mill)
and so on.
these ideas let the solution to the problem(new players leaving due ot long training times early on) continue while also fixing the issue the solution causes at high SP levels.
so stop flooding the thread with your doomsaying and crying.
and think of a alternative way this would work.
because like it or not. CCP is determined to make it so new players (or indeed, new alts) have a way to get SP easier by doing something other than w8ing.
originally they had it set so 50-80 mill total SP accounts would only get 200k and 80mill + would only get 50k
but PLAYERS, wanted that to be higher. a FAR LARGER NUMBER OF PLAYERS THAN YOU. and thus it increased to 300k and 150k respectively.
if you disagree with this, you can suggest returning it to what it was before. but saying not to impliment this at all doesn't work.
as for why CCP is trying to fix the new players leaving due to long wait times. its due to alot of space MMO alternatives coming out that offer SIGNIFICANTLY less wait time that is determined by your actions. not your w8ing. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
68
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 00:56:03 -
[1175] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:King Aires wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Perhaps CCP will change the name, Eve Online to Wallets Online to reflect the new ethos. Nice one. If CCP do not alter their marketing concept accordingly, Eve OnLIE would also come to mind. Hard to believe they will actually go through with this. Risking their USP and the good reputation of their CEO seems reckless. It is the "Make as much cash as possible to continue holding up Valkyrie while we wait for OR headsets to drop in price to a place where people will actually buy them" tactic. Eve Online is a cash farmer now for CCP, has been for a while. CCP's income has been steadily increasing - even with fluctuating player (sign-in) numbers they have maintained growth in subscription income even within an unstable economic environment. You are assuming that CCP will continue to use a large proportion of EVE profits to fund R&D of Valkyrie - This seems a little redundant - I think the opposite will be the case since they got an influx of R&D funds for VR development November 2015 and the $30 million raised will sit nicely with the cash sale of code from the failed Vampire MMO (which was already a tax write-off for them due to how European tax laws work with R&D) -- So cash for holding up Valkyrie is a non-starter as an argument CCP is doing this for money. That defeats the arguments that EVE is doing well...
Why this was being implemented was explained several months ago by CCP Seagull and the open talk that followed was very informative.
CCP is doing well it only suffers when too much is drained away into R&D
EDIT : I still say I don't like how its being implemented - I think an alternative method could have been used |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
374
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 01:09:01 -
[1176] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Dyner wrote:This works :D
Been saying for years there needs to be a way to speed up training. It's so boring and frustrating to have the ISK, but still need "3 months 17 days 7 hours" until you can even get into that shiny new ship. -- By the time I finished training for some of the ships I was already past the desire to fly them.
*goes back to ship spinning whole waiting on more skills to finish* Yeesssss, I bet this makes you feel very proud doesn't it. Now Eve losers like you finally have a chance to win Eve. hurry up and quit already if your so against it that way we can stop having your toxicity polluting the forums this change will in fact help new players ALOT. and stop people from leaving game cause they dont feel like logging in due to a 2 week training queue, despite having tons of isk. when players leave game, thye get addicted ot new games, and forget EVE. this change lets them stay, earning isk to speed up training (like EXP in normal games. skill training for doing crap) Listen suga, I'll say and post as I dam well please. If you don't like then you either make me shut up or leave the dam forums. I'm pissed because I'm just been ripped off after resubbing all my accounts 1 week before CCP made this final decision and I'm not gonna stay quite about it. But fear not, I'll be leaving this game soon enough....after I get my monies worth (or if CCP would be so kind as to give me a refund but I know that's not gonna happen) its coming to the game. you can cry all you want. but your not gonna change that. because majority of people on reddit/facebook/fanfest support it. and considering how few people use forums compared to the other media. you need to understand how small you are. this change will help new players immensely. if you have an issue with it, you can suggest solutions. but removing it isn't going to happen as removing the solution to one problem doesnt fix anything and suggestions are why the thread is here. for example, a few times in this thread people have suggested limits. including a limited number you can use per month, or 6 months. increasable by infromorph or limiting the total number of SP u can have and still use it (the person said you can no longer use it after 50mill) and so on. these ideas let the solution to the problem(new players leaving due ot long training times early on) continue while also fixing the issue the solution causes at high SP levels. so stop flooding the thread with your doomsaying and crying. and think of a alternative way this would work. because like it or not. CCP is determined to make it so new players (or indeed, new alts) have a way to get SP easier by doing something other than w8ing. originally they had it set so 50-80 mill total SP accounts would only get 200k and 80mill + would only get 50k but PLAYERS, wanted that to be higher. a FAR LARGER NUMBER OF PLAYERS THAN YOU. and thus it increased to 300k and 150k respectively. if you disagree with this, you can suggest returning it to what it was before. but saying not to impliment this at all doesn't work. as for why CCP is trying to fix the new players leaving due to long wait times. its due to alot of space MMO alternatives coming out that offer SIGNIFICANTLY less wait time that is determined by your actions. not your w8ing. Where do you get the confidence that CCP would actually listen to any advice given in this thread? I haven't seen not 1 post from any Devs since the first 5 pages of this thread. Unless there are Dev alts hiding behind troll spammers like you, I suggest they come out of hiding and post with their Dev avatars to give the players some inspiration that they are actually listening. Because their silence is telling me that they no longer know what they're doing anymore. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 01:17:42 -
[1177] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: Where do you get the confidence that CCP would actually listen to any advice given in this thread? I haven't seen not 1 post from any Devs since the first 5 pages of this thread. Unless there are Dev alts hiding behind troll spammers like you, I suggest they come out of hiding and post with their Dev avatars to give the players some inspiration that they are actually listening.
they listed to people enough to increase the high SP ammount from 200k to 300k. and 50k to 150k.
they devs tend to go quiet when they see the toxic aspects of the community(hint hint. you) come out that spam crap instead of offering ways to improve an addition to the game.
you spamming "its the end of the game" "remove it" "CCP are greedy" and "it will just be P2W"
are not helpful. and range from troll to waste of space.
so what happened in this thread? Devs interacted, trying to find out what players wanted in terms of how to smooth the launch to this (which will come out regardless due to it being a needed thing for new players or new alts). they got info.
but then trolls(hey u) started spamming, and the Devs go quiet, relying on other social media that isn't overflowed with useless trolls(hint hint you).
in this case, the social media is their facebook, fanfest, reddit, a few in game questions (when i got contacted by a GM during my trial period -when they ask how your doing and if you have questions- they specifically asked how i feel the skill system in the game is, and if having a way to spend the currency i own to get some SP was ideal. i said yes of coarse.)
so....
either start suggestions fixes to the skill injectors that do not interfere with their intended audience(aka low SP characters). or be quiet. saying "remove it" is not an answer.
alternatively go to this lecture https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Troll_school.jpg |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
100
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 01:50:53 -
[1178] - Quote
When you (CCP) invest a customer in your product by presenting to them a game play mechanic that involves them committing upwards of a decade to fully explore every facet of and they decide they want to make that long term investment in your product and your company by paying you monthly with subscription fees...
That customer expects you (CCP) will uphold the conditions upon which they decided to join your endeavor.
Their support they gave you by committing their time and money to make your product and your company a success is expected to be honored.
When you (CCP) deceive your customers and institute a CASH EXTRACTION system of double billing that by its nature circumvents and destroys the very skill point game mechanic they joined the game to experience in the first place...
You (CCP) have violated your customers trust in your intentions to safeguard their interests and have positioned yourself as someone who is viewed as either being...
COERCED or INCOMPETENT.
Have your (CCP) staff members that still have any vested long term interest in EVE resigned in frustration at this point or are they hiding under their desks and hoping to be employed at another company when the fleecing of EVE reaches its inevitable and fast approaching conclusion? Or worse are they oblivious to the danger of what is about to happen?
The institution of this CASH EXTRACTION skill point catastrophe which no one who cares about the long term success of EVE wanted has every appearance of being intended to deliberately destroy EVE and the most incredible part is you (CCP) blatantly ignored all data and customer feedback and are now shoving this into the game regardless of the consequences.
This is a violation of everything EVE is about and everybody including you (CCP) know it.
So following the money... Who benefits...
Short term... you (CCP) but its very short term. When you sell your soul for a few bucks there is no redemption.
The cash infusion will be dramatic but will cripple any long term survivability EVE has as all customers planning for a decade long experience have been betrayed and no new player will come to EVE looking for a long term experience. EVE will become a short term attraction at best.
No one in their right mind would want to commit a decade of involvement up front to a company that breaks its promises like this. When you (CCP) screw over thousands of existing customers and mangle your own product for some quick short term cash you get a reputation that you will not recover from.
If you thought it was hard to make a game other than EVE now wait till you don't have EVE to fund your other failures and now you (CCP) will have a reputation for dishonesty and double crossing your customers to boot.
Unfortunately new players will be outraged when they find they must submit to the double billing practice of paying for a subscription then being required by FC's and corps to buy skills to join their fleets/corps to participate.
Players like myself with a year or two of time in EVE will also be outraged by the demand to have perfect skills and every ship available to fly in a fleet that the FC/corp wants and they will want it right away. You (CCP) know it and so do I and how convenient I now must be expected to submit to being double billed or worse by you (CCP) to participate when I am an experienced EVE player it will still not be good enough in so many cases now.
Are you (CCP) having some type of Burn EVE to the ground campaign? why do you want to cash out short term and destroy any hope of EVE surviving long term?
Stopping this CASH EXTRACTION debacle may be your (CCP's) last chance to do right by your customers. Once you pull the trigger and release this fiasco there is no way to restore the trust and faith you once enjoyed from your customers.
|
Filip Ernaga
Evil Dutch Bastards System Wide Adaptive Roam Massacres
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 01:59:31 -
[1179] - Quote
As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 02:03:23 -
[1180] - Quote
Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =)
+1 |
|
Roland Fulmer Metesur
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 02:17:55 -
[1181] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zombeilord Zantra wrote:I think it would be a fine idea, I mean if people don't like the idea then everyone whould boycott the extractors and don't pull any Skill points out of their charcters no matter what, but I been looking about the webs and seen many people upset and many who are for it, some people who have said they will resub because of it, and some who do not like the wait and quite eve because of it, the ones in null may be weary of it or more for it is also a split. If one thinks about it, this will and can change the tipping point of control just for null sec space, when I see it, it's not that people say its pay to win, but its that it is a new change and people tend to hate change who are acustomed to the old ways, not thinking about the possiblities of the new or the thought on how good it could be.
But I can see it being used mostly to get new players to pump the core skills to level 5 more then anything and we have yet to see the final product.
Course in the end we all will have wait and see how it interacts within the world of eve. It's just a coin flip in the end. This is not for new players. This feature is for immediate build of perfect alts. Or those who had already trained majority of skills to lvl 4 (talking here of skills with Rank 6 and >; where the main time consumption factor appears) and training ones up would take not less than 3 weeks which easily stack into months
True, unless a large corp uses it to recruit more players who are brand new to eve, I can see that or friends who are willing to help said friends. |
Zombeilord Zantra
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 02:38:27 -
[1182] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1
I am not a new player kinda because I could not afford it for a while and basically left if for X amount of months and just started to sub, about 2ish months ago, and all my friends are way ahead of me in training and will be going to null without me, since they worry with my skills being to low I would not be at all useful up there, even though they do not like this idea because they just brushed it off and never took a look at it till I started to talk about it in a positive way, then we won't have to leave anyone behind and all move out their together or that is what I hope.
Course people will still be training things up to a point then use the skill points to boost it past that month of wait to like maybe 15 minutes to 0.
Also people have to know that this will cost real money for the extractors unless one can get them from missions, and SP extractors will cost isk, which not everyone will have the money cause of other bills paying the monthly fee and such, unless you are a rich or spoiled person that is, course I find it to be a good add to the game, and people will most likely accept it and who knows more larger scale wars may happen where the sides are on even terms in strength unlike the wars that start that target the much weaker corps.
Edit: that Rolan fulmer is my other character that I have not worked on, and will say that I did not know that it would be different faces. O.o |
Rebel Gunn
Society for EVE Preservation
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 04:05:05 -
[1183] - Quote
In 2011 CCP stated that the NeX store (predecessor to New Eden Store) would only be used to sell vanity items:
Accord Reached at CCP's Special Summit in 2011
In particular they stated the following:
Quote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis.
It's clear that CCP has broken their word about microtransactions. They may have also have broken their word about sharing game development plans with the CSM. Was the CSM given information of this plan prior to the first blog on skill point trading?
It's also clear that CCP has nothing but contempt and disdain for the players, their customers. Their attempt to spin all of the negative feedback they received on the first blog into some sign of player support is complete crap.
Posting our reaction as players here in the forums, threatening to unsubscribe or actually doing it, and suspending PLEX purchases are all appropriate means to express our displeasure over the introduction of this feature. So far CCP is still silent in response to the most recent feedback, and I expect that a drop in revenue is the only thing they will understand.
Toward that end, the time may soon be approaching that those of us that are against this will need to seriously consider taking more extreme measures. Most of these would be in-game with the goal of creating an increasingly tangible cost to CCP for ignoring our wishes as customers.
I think if we apply enough pressure, potentially including making the in-game environment very unpleasant for the community at large and/or targeting certain segments, we can eventually get their attention.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33239
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 04:11:45 -
[1184] - Quote
well. personally I just find that funny. But just as much as it is damning, there's the character bazaar, which is an existing corollary to SP extractors.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
723
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 04:23:01 -
[1185] - Quote
Roland Fulmer Metesur wrote: True, unless a large corp uses it to recruit more players who are brand new to eve, I can see that or friends who are willing to help said friends.
friends at one hand and alliances at another. let's for example take one potentially newbie friendly but combat oriented null sec formation. they are always interested in high number of fresh pilots and they are willingly would be providing them with n-amount of skill points required to fit into their doctrines but as a trade of they would ask newbie to fight against those reds or even with greater goals against biggest evil in Eve (goons i guess). Next thing the newbie would be asked is to create twink and start farming SP's on him because everything counts and Eve is not exception so he has to start farming SP's and sell those back to the Corp/Alli, let's say -10% off lowest buy order.
Zombeilord Zantra wrote:
I am not a new player kinda because I could not afford it for a while and basically left if for X amount of months and just started to sub, about 2ish months ago, and all my friends are way ahead of me in training and will be going to null without me, since they worry with my skills being to low I would not be at all useful up there, even though they do not like this idea because they just brushed it off and never took a look at it till I started to talk about it in a positive way, then we won't have to leave anyone behind and all move out their together or that is what I hope.
Course people will still be training things up to a point then use the skill points to boost it past that month of wait to like maybe 15 minutes to 0.
Also people have to know that this will cost real money for the extractors unless one can get them from missions, and SP extractors will cost isk, which not everyone will have the money cause of other bills paying the monthly fee and such, unless you are a rich or spoiled person that is, course I find it to be a good add to the game, and people will most likely accept it and who knows more larger scale wars may happen where the sides are on even terms in strength unlike the wars that start that target the much weaker corps.
Edit: that Rolan fulmer is my other character that I have not worked on, and will say that I did not know that it would be different faces. O.o
sounds like War of Clones tbh. everyone who wants t go to null should have not less than 10M SP please find attached reqired SP's layout. Not sure what your friends are up to be doing in null but lows SP never been a barrier to go there. you could play a nice bait role, you could be a solid SB pilot at 5m SP level, you could scan etc etc. those are not real hard things to do at low SP level.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
723
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 04:25:47 -
[1186] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:well. personally I just find that funny. But just as much as it is damning, there's the character bazaar, which is an existing corollary to SP extractors.
i'd say it's more like a SP Bank where you could invest into "correct" deposit. |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
22
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 04:49:51 -
[1187] - Quote
All of the people saying "SP coming from injectors isnt pay to win" or "that SP has to come from somewhere so its not an unlimited resource" are ignoring the fact that it IS an unlimited resource, particularly if you are a player willing to SPEND money on plex for multiple accounts to farm sp to funnel to a main or are rich enough to buy the injectors with isk, which ARE BOUGHT WITH AURUM, which means PLEX, even PLEX bought on the market and converted to AURUM are still BOUGHT by someone. So in effect, this IS pay to win, as SOMEONE is paying to make the PLEX or injectors that are sold, maybe YOU arent paying to win, but SOMEONE is.
There is also the fact that CCP promised after the monacle debacle that they would only add aesthetic items to the New Eden Exchange. introducing this feature that has a tangible impact on the game is FAR from a purely aesthetic feature. By implementing this, CCP is breaking a promise made to the players, which I personally find very disturbing.
On top of all that, they are completely lying. Or at least avoiding the truth. I read the original post on this idea, as well as many news posts on various sites, reddit posts, and asked around in game, and VERY FEW people thought this was a good or acceptable idea. By saying bull like "the players saw the good idea we had and agreed with us" they are avoiding the majrity of the loyal players feelings and opinions in order to sell more PLEX.
SP should be a sign of commitment, not of how fat your wallet is. And even the character bazaar still shows the commitment given by someone to make the character. By allowing the farming and selling of sp, (and youre kidding yourself if you think all SP sold will come from older characters selling excess SP), you are making it mean less to be a high sp character.
Once again, I will practically BEG that CCP does not implement this feature, and if they absoluely HAVE TO, they should put a cap on how many injectors a character can use. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
134
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 05:15:56 -
[1188] - Quote
The cap is present already with how effective they will be the higher your SP. You can realistically expect the majority of pilots who use this, even aggressively, to slow down dramatically after spending on twenty injectors. Rich ***** capsuleers will exhaust their efforts and/or thin their wallets dramatically once they reach the +80m threshold. The bump to their effectiveness at higher levels is not such a big deal and makes this actual-cost item not completely worthless for veteran pilots. It was a risky, but well made decision.
Once again, people are not clearly grasping just how expensive this will be if they are priced at barely affording two empty injectors per plex. At that rate, I would just mock whoever spent that much RL currency on a game, much as I do already to any Elite player. Cheers to CCP when suckers like that gobble up hook, line and sinker.
With the changing times and trends, Eve needs this more than false illusions of entitled investment or 'back in my day' talk about how you loved to watch a queue tick-tock its way after you alarm clocked to set the next skill in.
I currently sit just past the point where these will not be very useful for me at cost. I'm alright with that. I'm also alright with getting an awesome fight from a three day old nub. Bring it on.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33239
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 05:52:48 -
[1189] - Quote
I don't think players are as upset as they could be. The real hotness will be in buying a junk character on bazaar for six bil or so, and brain draining all that SP with dirt cheap extractors. Congratulations you just trained 20 million SP for 8 billion ISK.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33239
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 05:53:34 -
[1190] - Quote
EVERYONE WILL BE BETTER THAN YOU FOR A SIX PACK OF PLEX
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
Zombeilord Zantra
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 06:02:42 -
[1191] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Roland Fulmer Metesur wrote: True, unless a large corp uses it to recruit more players who are brand new to eve, I can see that or friends who are willing to help said friends.
friends at one hand and alliances at another. let's for example take one potentially newbie friendly but combat oriented null sec formation. they are always interested in high number of fresh pilots and they are willingly would be providing them with n-amount of skill points required to fit into their doctrines but as a trade of they would ask newbie to fight against those reds or even with greater goals against biggest evil in Eve (goons i guess). Next thing the newbie would be asked is to create twink and start farming SP's on him because everything counts and Eve is not exception so he has to start farming SP's and sell those back to the Corp/Alli, let's say -10% off lowest buy order. Zombeilord Zantra wrote:
I am not a new player kinda because I could not afford it for a while and basically left if for X amount of months and just started to sub, about 2ish months ago, and all my friends are way ahead of me in training and will be going to null without me, since they worry with my skills being to low I would not be at all useful up there, even though they do not like this idea because they just brushed it off and never took a look at it till I started to talk about it in a positive way, then we won't have to leave anyone behind and all move out their together or that is what I hope.
Course people will still be training things up to a point then use the skill points to boost it past that month of wait to like maybe 15 minutes to 0.
Also people have to know that this will cost real money for the extractors unless one can get them from missions, and SP extractors will cost isk, which not everyone will have the money cause of other bills paying the monthly fee and such, unless you are a rich or spoiled person that is, course I find it to be a good add to the game, and people will most likely accept it and who knows more larger scale wars may happen where the sides are on even terms in strength unlike the wars that start that target the much weaker corps.
Edit: that Rolan fulmer is my other character that I have not worked on, and will say that I did not know that it would be different faces. O.o
sounds like War of Clones tbh. everyone who wants t go to null should have not less than 10M SP please find attached reqired SP's layout. Not sure what your friends are up to be doing in null but lows SP never been a barrier to go there. you could play a nice bait role, you could be a solid SB pilot at 5m SP level, you could scan etc etc. those are not real hard things to do at low SP level.
Well I could go to low sec but with how many people in the beginning kept telling me to train this or that, I have skills everywhere, and right now I am just building my supplies of ships. lol |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
25
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 06:13:51 -
[1192] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:The cap is present already with how effective they will be the higher your SP. You can realistically expect the majority of pilots who use this, even aggressively, to slow down dramatically after spending on twenty injectors. Rich ***** capsuleers will exhaust their efforts and/or thin their wallets dramatically once they reach the +80m threshold. The bump to their effectiveness at higher levels is not such a big deal and makes this actual-cost item not completely worthless for veteran pilots. It was a risky, but well made decision.
Once again, people are not clearly grasping just how expensive this will be if they are priced at barely affording two empty injectors per plex. At that rate, I would just mock whoever spent that much RL currency on a game, much as I do already to any Elite player. Cheers to CCP when suckers like that gobble up hook, line and sinker.
With the changing times and trends, Eve needs this more than false illusions of entitled investment or 'back in my day' talk about how you loved to watch a queue tick-tock its way after you alarm clocked to set the next skill in.
I currently sit just past the point where these will not be very useful for me at cost. I'm alright with that. I'm also alright with getting an awesome fight from a three day old nub. Bring it on.
The cap isnt really present because you still get 3/5 of the SP even if you have an extremely veteran player. Thats pocket change to many players, even if they cost the same as a plex. The 150k sp for top players was still abusable, but then, after 85% complaints and 15% saying it wasnt fair to vets, they decided to DOUBLE the sp gained, making it even MORE abusable. There will be no cap unless they set a cap, a HARD cap, as in "can only use a max of 10 per account" or something |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
104
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 06:18:02 -
[1193] - Quote
From what I have been reading there was a huge scandal in 2011 where CCP tried to double bill and swindle their customers with micro transactions on top of subscription fees but they were stopped dead in their tracks...
Until now.
What a shock here they are again trying to sneak by with this con job once again.
How do they justify this to themselves? The deceit. the lies. All for the greater good right?
I give you now my fictitious behind the scenes conversation at CCP HQ...
"EVE is the past Valkyrie is the future! If we must destroy EVE to get Valkyrie launched that is a sacrifice we must make! For the greater good!
Occulus wants more cash! Sony wants more cash! OMG! They are launching in less than two months and we have nothing coded! we need more programmers but we already blew all our R&D money on Valkyrie months ago!
What about the millions we made off of all those plex players bought for EVE that are just sitting on the market?
We already spent that money on new servers and Valkyrie.
What about the money from players that pay their subscriptions years in advance?
We spent that money too.
We have hundreds of thousands of customers with accounts paid out years in advance where did the money go!!??!!
It seems that all the players in EVE have either paid us already for their subscriptions years in advance or have so many skill points that they can sit in carriers and rat and buy tons of plex with isk to pay for their accounts and never pay us another dime for as long as they play EVE even for decades to come.
So your telling me we miss managed every dime we have and all the windfall profit we gained from EVE players who are planning to play eve for a decade and paid in advance... all that money is gone?
Yes.
We are broke?
Yes.
To hell with it sell skill points in the Aurum store those morons will buy it up.
They revolted in 2011 when we tried it.
Well sneak it in pretend the players want it even if they revolt give them stats about how much they want to be micro transacted and double charged in spite of the billions those dumb suckers paid us they will pay us more. They will protest but they wont be able to resist SP for sale and will skill cap themselves out on it.
But Sir then they will stop playing EVE after they spend all that money and realize its less fun with nothing to look forward to?
Yeah but who cares EVE is the past Valkyrie is the Future! There can be only one. The trick is to make everyone finish their EVE experience... let them see it all in the next few months by having access to everything. then when they realize its is all just a circle going left or right turning white or red no matter how much SP they have they will look to Valkyrie for new entertainment...
Brilliant!
I know I am brilliant that's why I am the boss.
Now get back to work convincing all those EVE morons how much they want to pay us millions more for SP that will be obsolete in a few months so they loose interest in EVE and get hooked on Valkyrie when it launches next month. And be quick about it! we need to hire more programmers by the start of February to finish the damn thing to launch in March."
Yes Sir!
|
Morihei Akachi
Nishida Corporation
239
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 07:13:15 -
[1194] - Quote
Filip Ernaga wrote:This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. Players who came in recently can already make a difference. If this change were to prevent you from finding that out, then I think you'd end up missing something pretty awesome.
"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and donGÇÖt belong in Eve Online. (And as for GÇ£scopedGÇ¥ GǪ)
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
135
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 07:17:26 -
[1195] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:The cap isnt really present because you still get 3/5 of the SP even if you have an extremely veteran player. Thats pocket change to many players, even if they cost the same as a plex. The 150k sp for top players was still abusable, but then, after 85% complaints and 15% saying it wasnt fair to vets, they decided to DOUBLE the sp gained, making it even MORE abusable. There will be no cap unless they set a cap, a HARD cap, as in "can only use a max of 10 per account" or something
I wouldn't say that's abusable. That's legit 2/5 SP going down the toilet. I would really want you to think of what you can skill up with 150k SP when most skills are 1m to take to V at a multiplier of x4. Now take a veteran player and see how many very advanced skills are beyond that multiplier. Racial (x) Titan skill has a multiplier of x16!! Dreadnought racial so-and-so multiplier of x12. ZOMG! Maybe they can train some mining skills and hop into a mining frigate with that injector. Maybe take the Science x1 skill HALFWAY to V. I'm not making this up. 150k is peanuts and so is 500k at cost. The most important feedback you can give atm is to make certain the injectors are not given away. Rest assured, however, in that nothing in the AUR store has ever been 'cheap'.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4586
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 07:43:44 -
[1196] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I don't think players are as upset as they could be. The real hotness will be in buying a junk character on bazaar for six bil or so, and brain draining all that SP with dirt cheap extractors. Congratulations you just trained 20 million SP for 8 billion ISK.
I already made a guess that extractors should run around or above 900 AUR... which is not "cheap".
Currently 20 $ / Gé¼ buy you 30 days of subscription or some 2,000,000 SPs. That's 100,000 SP per buck/euro, so 5 $ worth of SP should be worth 5$/Gé¼ of AUR.... that's a 900 AUR package.
Also factor in that MT items always cost more than the nearest lower package... so 950 AUR would make every sense. A PLEX costs more than a month of subscription because it is better (more flexible), and SP extractors will be even better than a PLEX.
Of course, we as players will think that 950 AUR per extractor is batshit insane, but hey: This one is for the money!
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3179
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 07:53:30 -
[1197] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1
Dear Yaasmine, you are probably too young to realize this, but all of us us were new players at one time and we all managed perfectly well.
Let me introduce you to a concept, look it up online if you need to...'deferred gratification'
Cash for skills is now, and will always be, a bad idea.
If CCP did not need the extra money, doeas anyone seriously think that this dumb feature would ever get introduced?
This is not a signature.
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 09:28:56 -
[1198] - Quote
Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.
Welcome to New Eden, i doubt your "hard earned isk" will be enough to purchase a skill injection, you will need a credit card.
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:49:29 -
[1199] - Quote
Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.
I have a question: How many SP do you as a new player feel you need to 'be effective'?
This will allow us to then determine a cost for that 'effectiveness' based on the assumption that 4 injectors will cost 1 PLEX + ~20% profit.
I'm interested to see how much extra a new player is expected to pay above their initial sign up cost. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:51:29 -
[1200] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:[quote=Rain6637]I already made a guess that extractors should run around or above 900 AUR... which is not "cheap". Currently 20 $ / Gé¼ buy you 30 days of subscription or some 2,000,000 SPs. That's 100,000 SP per buck/euro, so 5 $ worth of SP should be worth 5$/Gé¼ of AUR.... that's a 900 AUR package. You make it appear here as if we are actually buying the SP with AUR, rather than the extractor. In reality, the SP are generated by some subscribed character. Since optimally one can train about four skill packets a month with one character, that means the "raw resource" price for a skill packet is 0.25*PLEX.
The extractor is a pure "overhead" imposed arbitrarily by CCP. As such it can in principle cost anything, since it has no necessary relationship to the game. I think it should be an in-game rare drop instead, which would resolve the "cash grab" whine. But we know that CCP does want to cash in on this.
So we can take your estimate, which more or less gives the "SP to AUR" cost, and ask what kind of overhead would be sensible. I think 10% to 20% would be reasonable. And thus we arrive at a cost of about 100-200 AUR, whereas about 500 AUR (50% overhead!) surely is a pain threshold. That is exactly what I posted many pages back.
I think CCP would be well advised to keep the AUR price low on the extractor (or even better, make it a drop in-game instead). I've been a strong supporter from the start, but that also means I will be angry if CCP sets some ridiculous price on this. There's nothing worse than getting people's hopes up and then disappointing them...
In the end, I think one should pay about 350M-400M ISK for a skill injector with 500k SP on Jita. That is within a newbie's reach, assuming that the newbie has paid real cash for their month of game time. In fact, it would be a better "per month ISK sink" goal for newbies than trying to PLEX their account. If you play hard and/or smart as a newbie, and generate 350M-400M ISK above expenses per month, you get to progress 25% faster. If you play harder and/or smarter, and generate 700M-800M ISK, you progress 50% faster. Etc.
That sort of price point may also lead to altruistic / speculative gifting of skill injectors to newbies. Newbie joins your corp, do you give him a skill injector to get him up to speed? If the price is too high, then that is too risky. But if the price is low enough, then you can play a "win some, lose some" game here...
If PLEX prices do not inflate too much (which again is helped by a low AUR price of the extractor), and if overheads remain in the 10-20% range, then a skill injector price of 350M-400M ISK is quite possible - and I mean the steady, long term price. On introduction, I expect considerable fluctuations, and probably more down than up. |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:51:32 -
[1201] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:EVERYONE WILL BE BETTER THAN YOU FOR A SIX PACK OF PLEX
Everyone is better than me at PvP even after a straight forward 6-pack. Don't give the more SP as well please! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:54:23 -
[1202] - Quote
Oh and while I'm posting I'm copyrighting the phrase 'Let us do the training, so you don't have to...' right here.
Any in game mass SP farm that wishes to use the tagline can do so for a mere 5% of SP they generate sales for by using it :) |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 11:06:27 -
[1203] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I have a question: How many SP do you as a new player feel you need to 'be effective'? Strong specialisation on one thing, about 2M-5M SP. But frankly, that's not very realistic for a real newbie (like yours truly a few months ago), that's more an experienced player training an alt for a job.
I think a newbie's main char (like this one) needs about 10M-15M SP, so that it is on one hand "well rounded" (has all the basic skills, has allowed the newbie to explore a lot of game content somewhat seriously, gives access to many sub-cap ships) and on the other hand has some serious investment in a further specialisation / strength to set up a future career.
And I would say that's about double the SP you actually get, i.e., in the time that it takes a newbie to sort out what he wants to do next, they will probably have about 5M-8M SP. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 11:47:56 -
[1204] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I have a question: How many SP do you as a new player feel you need to 'be effective'? Strong specialisation on one thing, about 2M-5M SP. But frankly, that's not very realistic for a real newbie (like yours truly a few months ago), that's more an experienced player training an alt for a job. I think a newbie's main char (like this one) needs about 10M-15M SP, so that it is on one hand "well rounded" (has all the basic skills, has allowed the newbie to explore a lot of game content somewhat seriously, gives access to many sub-cap ships) and on the other hand has some serious investment in a further specialisation / strength to set up a future career. And I would say that's about double the SP you actually get, i.e., in the time that it takes a newbie to sort out what he wants to do next, they will probably have about 5M-8M SP.
Disclaimer: This is in no way a dig at you, but rather I wanted a genuine new players view on what is required to be 'efective'
So at ~ 2 mil SP per PLEX + 20% that's 6 - 8 PLEX cost? That's -ú90 as a six pack here in the UK. -ú90 on top of the initial sign up fee to become 'effective'...and people are saying this is 'good' for new players???
Note: I in no way agree that it takes this much SP for a player to be 'effective'. A player can add dps to any fleet and be useful, if you get primaried (as a new player in a relatively small ship) in anything beyond small gang fights you are going to die whether you are in t1 or bling fit pirate ships so it doesn't make that much difference for a new player who decides (for instance) to join spectre fleets for PvP experience or similar.
Likewise in a supply chain a new player can make the tech I/bulk items to help the more experience manufacturer further up the chain and so on. It is not the number of SP as such that holds new players back, it's getting in with the right kind of corp for that player. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
507
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 12:05:23 -
[1205] - Quote
There will have to be SPs farms becasue whole idea is eating itself from inside. Every injector used on char >5 mil SP erasing % of created SP. So after a time prices for packet will be increasing, there will be less and less SP overall. SP farms are passive income, something that CCP don't like. Some of you may be very disappointed about price of extractor. It's not necessary must be connected to how much SP we may gain in one month.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
292
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 12:17:20 -
[1206] - Quote
so when we get to know the price of the extractors? i think allot depend on this "little" detail, so how long till CCP will announce it? |
Officer Pressly
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 12:18:23 -
[1207] - Quote
I'm looking forward to the new era in EvE. After taking it into consideration, I'm happy about this change, and it has given me reason to keep subs alive. Looking forward to citadels as well. TY CCP for beeing awsome :D Only thing I wish you would spend a little more time on, is the bugs! Those little screaming ants in the background are just afraid of change, and can't see what good it brings to the game! |
Josef Djugashvilis
3180
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 12:18:46 -
[1208] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:well. personally I just find that funny. But just as much as it is damning, there's the character bazaar, which is an existing corollary to SP extractors.
The Charecter Bazaar, as we can now see, was the thin end of the wedge as some of us suggested at the time.
CCP defended the introduction of the Character Bazaar on the grounds that it helped combat RMT.
Cash for skills cannot be explained away on this basis.
This is not a signature.
|
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 12:23:38 -
[1209] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:
..... At that rate, I would just mock whoever spent that much RL currency on a game, much as I do already to any Elite player. Cheers to CCP when suckers like that gobble up hook, line and sinker.
....
Elite is nothing to compare to EvE here, in Elite you buy expansion once a year they come out, but also can skip any DLC-¦s (and not just land / fly at planets as an example). And there is no in game advantage in Elite to be bought with RL money.
In EvE pretty much all of us have spent (at beginning at least) in subscriptions money at minimum same amount of money that I have spent to Elite since kickstarter (including all future DLC-¦s).
I really do not see difference in subscription/microtransactions/ DLC-¦s, it is all the same money for me.
Except in Elite it is for life, in EvE for month(s).
But yeah, I support all efforts CCP do to get more money, only that will keep this game running, and I like it just as much as Elite. |
Memphis Baas
987
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 12:51:52 -
[1210] - Quote
With the cheapest AUR package being $5 for (let's round it to) 1000 AUR, even if CCP picks this cheapest price for the extractor, someone wanting to extract 50 million skillpoints would have to spend $500. Someone wanting to buy 50 million skillpoints would have to pay $500 + 25 PLEX = $1000.
Total money spent on an extraction + injection session for 50 million points = $1,500, spent by various parties (even if the PLEX is bought with ISK, someone has to buy it with RL money and put it on the market). A year's subscription is $132; 1 person rearranging 50 million skillpoints is worth 11 years of subscription to CCP.
People are using the "rich kids" examples as if they'll be common, when in fact $500 is unheard of in this community where we're complaining that $15/mo is too much to pay for a game. |
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:00:13 -
[1211] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:So at ~ 2 mil SP per PLEX + 20% that's 6 - 8 PLEX cost? That's -ú90 as a six pack here in the UK. -ú90 on top of the initial sign up fee to become 'effective'...and people are saying this is 'good' for new players??? First, while a new player could simply spend -ú90 outright, I think in most cases it is going to be (a) more gradual, and (b) partly self-financing via increased ISK earnings. Basically, you will hit a roadblock in your progression, and buy one or two injectors to get over it. Now, if it turns out that this improvement was in fact worth it, then your ISK take will increase and the next time you want to get a skill bump you might actually have the ISK to pay for it.
Second, the alternative is what precisely? Well, waiting six months. Now, what is worse depends on your situation. But the assumption that every newbie will be totally fine with waiting for six months until they can get what they want in a game is just silly. And the endless mantra of how wonderful "delayed gratification" is and how important this is for true EVE spirit is - best I can tell - a kind of Stockholm syndrome.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Note: I in no way agree that it takes this much SP for a player to be 'effective'. And that's why you haven't been training since you hit 2M SP. You just forgot about the skill queue, because it didn't really matter for anything you wanted to do. Right? I don't believe a vet who tells me that SP "doesn't matter" but has nice implants, a fully stacked skill queue and pretty much the maximum number of skill points one can have with their subscription time. That's just bovine excrement.
EVE ultimately always pits player against player, even if by proxy (like in "market PVP"). Against an AI, 5% here or there do not matter much, because AI is dumb and sphexish. Against people, 5% always matter - if for no other reason than that people will set up competitions "for fun" to make those 5% count. I can run. But I cannot win a gold medal in running in the local sports competition, much less in the Olympics. Likewise, if you play EVE as a glorified screen saver, then skills are pretty meaningless. But if you have the slightest ambition for anything, then they immediately become important. Heck, even someone who just wants to do "AFK mining" effectively needs to invest in skills for the right ship, reprocessing skill for better yield, social skills to get standings and reduce stations tax, shields / drones against the gankers, etc. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
507
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:01:50 -
[1212] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote: With the cheapest AUR package being $5 for (let's round it to) 1000 AUR, even if CCP picks this cheapest price for the extractor, someone wanting to extract 50 million skillpoints would have to spend $500. Someone wanting to buy 50 million skillpoints would have to pay $500 + 25 PLEX = $1000.
Total money spent on an extraction + injection session for 50 million points = $1,500, spent by various parties (even if the PLEX is bought with ISK, someone has to buy it with RL money and put it on the market). A year's subscription is $132; 1 person rearranging 50 million skillpoints is worth 11 years of subscription to CCP.
People are using the "rich kids" examples as if they'll be common, when in fact $500 is unheard of in this community where we're complaining that $15/mo is too much to pay for a game.
Well thank you, another argument that this has nothing to do with helping new players to catch up.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4273
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:10:37 -
[1213] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:With the cheapest AUR package being $5 for (let's round it to) 1000 AUR, even if CCP picks this cheapest price for the extractor 1 AUR is the cheapest non-zero price, not 1000
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:25:07 -
[1214] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1 Dear Yaasmine, you are probably too young to realize this, but all of us us were new players at one time and we all managed perfectly well. Let me introduce you to a concept, look it up online if you need to...'deferred gratification' Cash for skills is now, and will always be, a bad idea. If CCP did not need the extra money, doeas anyone seriously think that this dumb feature would ever get introduced?
you were a new player once
but now you have basic access to most of the basic ships.
now look at it from a new player. every day that passes, it becomes a bit more daunting for a new player to join as the "average" total SP of a person becomes higher and higher.
so reaching the "average" becomes more and more of a uphill climb.
for new players, how many leave EVE because of the 2 week training time for some of the basic ships. they get bored w8ing after 2-3 days because there is nothing they can do to speed it up.
the only thing thye can do is wait or buy from the character bazaar(and if u go that path, whats the point of making your own character)
and if they wait, chances are they get bored. go play other games, and forget EVE entirely. EVE already has a hard learning curve, but it doesnt help that alot of those who survive the learning curve leave at this point. so EVE loses more players than it should.
this skill injector aims to make it so playing your own character YOU created is more viable for new players. they can spend the 2 weeks grinding for isk to buy skill injectors to make the 2 weeks shorter. (aka do something other than w8)
its not a pay to win mechanic as it does nothing that the character bazaar doesn't let you do already.
the character bazaar is actually cheaper in terms of the SP per $ you get
skill injectors will cost more in terms of SP per $. so its more ideal for those who don't want a massive ammount of new SP from a new character, but instead want a tiny boost to an existing character.
yes people will make alts to farm SP. but they already do that for the character bazaar. there are people who have 3-4 + accounts that just train up new characters. with the aim to sell on the character bazaar.
since this does NOTHING that the character bazaar doesn't already do(aka let you buy higher SP). the complaints here are useless.
for people who want real pay to win. i'd suggest going to World of Tanks to see what P2W is.(gold rounds) |
Darkblad
2588
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:28:31 -
[1215] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:With the cheapest AUR package being $5 for (let's round it to) 1000 AUR, even if CCP picks this cheapest price for the extractor While I object the whole Idea of this way method of SP transfer (and the reasoning that it's "for new players especially"), 1000 AUR isn't the mininmum.
- There's still 100 AUR tokens left in the market (no new onex are generaded) - You will gain 1000 AUR but that doesn't mean that you have to spend them for a single item.
To purchase a single pair of boots - e.g. Men's 'Lockstep' Boots (True Black) - you have to pay 100 AUR. You'd have to purchse the 1000 AUR package and are left with 900 to be spent otherwise or kept for [something].
1 AUR certainly won't be the actual price, but 1000 AUR are unlikely as well, given that the character bazaar costs 2 PLEX (= 3500 AUR) or 20 Gé¼ (in the Gé¼ zone). For 20 Gé¼ you get 4.035 AUR when purchased from the AUR store.
3.5/4 extrators can hardly match the price of the character bazaar, where most characters traded have up to 50 million SP.
NPE GÇô ISD
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:31:24 -
[1216] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:With the cheapest AUR package being $5 for (let's round it to) 1000 AUR, even if CCP picks this cheapest price for the extractor, someone wanting to extract 50 million skillpoints would have to spend $500. Someone wanting to buy 50 million skillpoints would have to pay $500 + 25 PLEX = $1000. 1000 AUR is not the "cheapest" price for an item in the online store. The cheapest clothing items cost 100 AUR each (various boots, shirts and tights). And 100 AUR is just what I suggest the skill extractor should cost.
That somebody who wants to buy 50M SP has to pay for 25 PLEX is neither here nor there. Yes, that's a lot of US$, but then that's (more or less) what you are willing to pay by subscribing as well. (In reality, one would save a lot of money by direct subscription rather than buying PLEX.)
So whining about those US$500 (or whatever) really makes no sense, other than perhaps if this is the first time you realise just how much EVE is costing you...
The question is exactly what premium CCP will extract via the entirely arbitrary "overhead" of having to pay for the skill extractors. And yes, I agree, if they charged 100% overheads then that would be stupidly greedy and greedily stupid.
But if they asked for 10% overheads (100 AUR per extractor), then this would be merely US$50 extra (above the basic SP costs of US$500 or so) when shopping for 50M SP. I think that is quite acceptable of such an acceleration. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3182
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:38:35 -
[1217] - Quote
Dear Yaasmine, if CCP are so worried about new player retention due to lack of skill points, then let them gift all new players X amount of skill points.
Two players start on day one of their Eve career.
Player 1 cannot afford to fund extra skill points with cash.
Player 2 can afford to do so and does.
One month later, a real disparity arises between the two players.
So, even if one accepts cash for skills in principle, it is manifestly unfair.
As a matter of historical record, I objected to the Character Bazaar at the time on the straight-forward grounds that it was easier to learn how to use, for example, a bought Titan pilot than it was to train one.
This is not a signature.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1965
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:39:31 -
[1218] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: First, while a new player could simply spend -ú90 outright, I think in most cases it is going to be (a) more gradual, and (b) partly self-financing via increased ISK earnings. Basically, you will hit a roadblock in your progression, and buy one or two injectors to get over it. Now, if it turns out that this improvement was in fact worth it, then your ISK take will increase and the next time you want to get a skill bump you might actually have the ISK to pay for it.
Second, the alternative is what precisely? Well, waiting six months. Now, what is worse depends on your situation. But the assumption that every newbie will be totally fine with waiting for six months until they can get what they want in a game is just silly. And the endless mantra of how wonderful "delayed gratification" is and how important this is for true EVE spirit is - best I can tell - a kind of Stockholm syndrome.
I hardly class myself as a vet.
I never once waited for a skill to complete before playing the game, I simply played with the skills I had whilst others trained. As a new player these are all pretty much low multiplier skills that don't take that long anyway and would typically complete before you next log in.
So which is it? You need 10-15 mill to be effective or you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills? If you need that 10-15 mill then you'd better pay the -ú90+ straight up (that's a conservative estimate by the way, almost certainly it would be higher).
If you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills then cerebral accelerator implants built in game by players would have been a better choice. But then that wouldn't increase revenue in the same way would it? Even if it would be better for a new player too.
Tristan Agion wrote: And that's why you haven't been training since you hit 2M SP. You just forgot about the skill queue, because it didn't really matter for anything you wanted to do. Right? I don't believe a vet who tells me that SP "doesn't matter" but has nice implants, a fully stacked skill queue and pretty much the maximum number of skill points one can have with their subscription time. That's just bovine excrement.
I never forgot about the skill queue as it was (before this change) a part of the game to create and grow your character. Soon the space or RL rich will be able to circumvent that to a degree which diminishes the game in my view. I also never fixated on being perfect at any career. I trained the necessary skills to level III or IV as required and just got on with the game in the meantime. As I determined whether I wanted to go further with that career I specialized some training into it whilst learning how to use the lower level skills to their maximum effect. Never once have I not logged in due to a skill training.
Anybody who tells a player they have to set skills to train then logout for an amount of time is telling them an outright lie.
Tristan Agion wrote:...I can run. But I cannot win a gold medal in running in the local sports competition, much less in the Olympics....
To use your example: You can run 100m in say 12 s, the guy who beats you can run it in 11.5s. Now he can run 200m in 25s, but you and your similar standard friend relay that distance and complete it in 24s. This is the heart of EvE, you need friends to compete. The 5% you mention does make a difference, but it doesn't mean you can't compete. I am in no way a perfect tech III manufacturer yet I can turn a good profit. Someone with perfect skills will get 5-10% more profit than me but I don't care about that, I care that my profit is enough for me.
Players really need to focus on what they can do now and have fun with it whilst planning for what they want to do in future. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
508
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:40:22 -
[1219] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:1000 AUR is not the "cheapest" price for an item in the online store. I think she/he meant that cheapest AUR package (5 euro) is gaving player almost 1000 AUR (900 exactly).
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:46:04 -
[1220] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Yaasmine, if CCP are so worried about new player retention due to lack of skill points, then let them gift all new players X amount of skill points.
Two players start on day one of their Eve career.
Player 1 cannot afford to fund extra skill points with cash.
Player 2 can afford to do so and does.
One month later, a real disparity arises between the two players.
So, even if one accepts cash for skills in principle, it is manifestly unfair.
As a matter of historical record, I objected to the Character Bazaar at the time on the straight-forward grounds that it was easier to learn how to use, for example, a bought Titan pilot than it was to train one. your assuming the only way players will be able to buy skill points is cash
except, buying with isk will be cheap enough for someone who has nothing to do but grind for 2 weeks.
myself for example. my character i made (not this) made several bill in the first 2 weeks from mining. now if i could have used that isk to speed up the skill training, i would have loved to.
but in the end, i jsut got bored and convincing myself to logg in when i know it still has another 9-12 days of training.....
i'm not the only one. 2 others in my corp would LOVE to speed up the training....considering we have so much isk we've earned from mining that we literally made a game out of self destructing ships next to afk miners(because wtf else are we supposed to do with the isk? buy ships we can't fly cause we have so little SP?) |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3182
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:55:02 -
[1221] - Quote
Dear Yaasmine, I am pleased that you made several billion in your first two weeks.
You are obviously very good at Eve Online and I rather think you do not actually need extra skill points.
Fly safe.
This is not a signature.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:02:28 -
[1222] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Yaasmine, I am pleased that you made several billion in your first two weeks.
You are obviously very good at Eve Online and I rather think you do not actually need extra skill points.
Fly safe.
that depends how you think i got them
i got them thanks to my corp providing security for the wormhole.
but i've still got 9 days of training before i can use other ships....and even longer before i can use them effectively(aka train up gunnery, the weapon skills, and so on)
considering how long it will take before i can fly the ship (keep in mind i'm not talking abut capitals or t3 cruisers. i'm talking about t3 destroyers, whose training time is shorter than t2 destroyers and t2 frigates)
well, my sub will be up before i can use it....
and convincing myself to buy a new sub. is a problem as when i look back on my first sub, heres what i'll remember. "can't do anything, still training"
so multiply this by alot of other new players. and wheres the appeal to resubbing. (wheres the appeal to a game where you need to wait for a month after paying to play it, before u can use ships. )
i know some ships only have a 2 day training time (Hurricane) but thats also false. cause you have 2 weeks to train up its essential skills (like tracking.....cause gl hitting **** on a hurricane without 2 weeks of trained up support ksills). and this whole time, you have players who have SP killing you. so what can you do?
skill injectors at least convined me to resub and save some isk up. so when they come out(and they will come out) i can buy some, get in Manticore, Confessor, and so on sooner. get proper support skills for them (lv 3-4). and PLAY.
and thats the thing with this thread. people don't realize skill injectors ARE coming out. you can't stop that.
the thread gave you the opportunity to argue for them giving less skill points per injector, or argue for a price, or argue for a limit to how often u can use a skill injector. and so on
but instead of people arguing for ways to smooth the release. the thread mostly has the same 5 people calling CCP greedy, saying EVE is going P2W, or going to die. and saying remove it.
none of which is true or going to happen. |
Segraina Skyblazer
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:02:55 -
[1223] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1 Just a bunch noobs looking for an easy mode Eve, how pathetic. This game is gone to get real boring soon. And I hate boredom.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:06:13 -
[1224] - Quote
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1 Just a bunch noobs looking for an easy mode Eve, how pathetic. This game is gone to get real boring soon. And I hate boredom.
then leave already. you've threatened to quit enough. what you waiting for.
sooner you leave, the sooner the game doesn't have to suffer your toxicity. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3182
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:16:28 -
[1225] - Quote
Dear Yaasmine, cash for skills is a bad idea.
Suggesting ways to introduce a bad idea is an exercise in futility.
If and when you can buy the skill points to fly a T3 Destroyer, what will you do then, threaten once again to quit unless you can buy enough skill points to fly a Marauder within a week?
Take care.
This is not a signature.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4589
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:22:41 -
[1226] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:[quote=Rain6637]I already made a guess that extractors should run around or above 900 AUR... which is not "cheap". Currently 20 $ / Gé¼ buy you 30 days of subscription or some 2,000,000 SPs. That's 100,000 SP per buck/euro, so 5 $ worth of SP should be worth 5$/Gé¼ of AUR.... that's a 900 AUR package. You make it appear here as if we are actually buying the SP with AUR, rather than the extractor. In reality, the SP are generated by some subscribed character. Since optimally one can train about four skill packets a month with one character, that means the "raw resource" price for a skill packet is 0.25*PLEX. The extractor is a pure "overhead" imposed arbitrarily by CCP. As such it can in principle cost anything, since it has no necessary relationship to the game. I think it should be an in-game rare drop instead, which would resolve the "cash grab" whine. But we know that CCP does want to cash in on this. So we can take your estimate, which more or less gives the "SP to AUR" cost, and ask what kind of overhead would be sensible. I think 10% to 20% would be reasonable. And thus we arrive at a cost of about 100-200 AUR, whereas about 500 AUR (50% overhead!) surely is a pain threshold. That is exactly what I posted many pages back. I think CCP would be well advised to keep the AUR price low on the extractor (or even better, make it a drop in-game instead). I've been a strong supporter from the start, but that also means I will be angry if CCP sets some ridiculous price on this. There's nothing worse than getting people's hopes up and then disappointing them... In the end, I think one should pay about 350M-400M ISK for a skill injector with 500k SP on Jita. That is within a newbie's reach, assuming that the newbie has paid real cash for their month of game time. In fact, it would be a better "per month ISK sink" goal for newbies than trying to PLEX their account. If you play hard and/or smart as a newbie, and generate 350M-400M ISK above expenses per month, you get to progress 25% faster. If you play harder and/or smarter, and generate 700M-800M ISK, you progress 50% faster. Etc. That sort of price point may also lead to altruistic / speculative gifting of skill injectors to newbies. Newbie joins your corp, do you give him a skill injector to get him up to speed? If the price is too high, then that is too risky. But if the price is low enough, then you can play a "win some, lose some" game here... If PLEX prices do not inflate too much (which again is helped by a low AUR price of the extractor), and if overheads remain in the 10-20% range, then a skill injector price of 350M-400M ISK is quite possible - and I mean the steady, long term price. On introduction, I expect considerable fluctuations, and probably more down than up.
So according to you:
Buy PLEX: CCP gets 20 Gé¼/$, you get 2,000,000 SP and are subscribed for one month. Buy 2,000,000 SP: CCP gets 2 Gé¼/$, you get 2,000,000 SP and save yourself 18 Gé¼/$ and subscribing for a month.
Why would CCP dismiss the opportunity cost of skill packets? Each 4 packets mean that they're losing a whole month of subscription... why shouldn't they pass on that cost to the customer?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:27:56 -
[1227] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Yaasmine, cash for skills is a bad idea.
Suggesting ways to introduce a bad idea is an exercise in futility.
If and when you can buy the skill points to fly a T3 Destroyer, what will you do then, threaten once again to quit unless you can buy enough skill points to fly a Marauder within a week?
Take care. first off
cash for skill? you mean the Bazaar? why do you guys hate skill injectors while ignoring the character bazaar
even without the character bazaar, there was account selling.
so why are you against skill injectors? while ignoring whats RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.
skill injectors will cost more per SP than the character bazaar.
and no, i won't threaten to quit. i'll be using the t3 destroyer to join the corp on military missions. aka stuff that a kestrel can't do.
not to mention, i can PLAY THE GAME to earn currency to buy skill injectors to speed up the training.
so instead of sitting on my ass waiting for the skill que, i can PLAY to speed it up |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1965
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:41:27 -
[1228] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote: first off
cash for skill? you mean the Bazaar? why do you guys hate skill injectors while ignoring the character bazaar
even without the character bazaar, there was account selling.
so why are you against skill injectors? while ignoring whats RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.
skill injectors will cost more per SP than the character bazaar.
and no, i won't threaten to quit. i'll be using the t3 destroyer to join the corp on military missions. aka stuff that a kestrel can't do.
not to mention, i can PLAY THE GAME to earn currency to buy skill injectors to speed up the training.
You seem to know quite a bit about various aspects of the game for a new player.
Most people against this idea dislike the character bazaar. Using a necessary evil to justify a change tells you all you need to know about that change.
Injectors will provide unallocated SP and so are much more valuable than a character off the bazaar with fixed skill layout.
A pirate ship will probably do all you wanted from the T3. If you are ISK rich enough for these injectors you are certainly ISK rich enough to use pirate ships in the meantime (many are much better than their tech II counterparts anyway).
Somebody has to pay the RL money for you to buy PLEX in game for the injectors, if new money doesn't come into the game then all that will happen is PLEX inflation and older space rich players (or RL rich players) will hoover up all the SP initially extracted.
Whilst I'm not one to quote Malcanis Law all the time in this case I believe it will very much apply. *If* this is good for new players (I don't believe it is in any way) then it'll be a damn sight better for older/rich players. The diminishing returns will not affect this as to the truly space rich paying more means absolutely nothing.
so instead of sitting on my ass waiting for the skill que, i can PLAY to speed it up[/quote]
|
stg slate
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:45:56 -
[1229] - Quote
Why are you guys building a new interface for spending un-allocated skill points when you already have a queue interface in the game? A 'Right click -> Apply to queue' entry in the context menu of the un-allocatedskills entry seems like it would free up time for your developers to work on an existing, terrible interface, like drones or something.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:50:47 -
[1230] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Yaasmine wrote: first off
cash for skill? you mean the Bazaar? why do you guys hate skill injectors while ignoring the character bazaar
even without the character bazaar, there was account selling.
so why are you against skill injectors? while ignoring whats RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.
skill injectors will cost more per SP than the character bazaar.
and no, i won't threaten to quit. i'll be using the t3 destroyer to join the corp on military missions. aka stuff that a kestrel can't do.
not to mention, i can PLAY THE GAME to earn currency to buy skill injectors to speed up the training.
You seem to know quite a bit about various aspects of the game for a new player. Most people against this idea dislike the character bazaar. Using a necessary evil to justify a change tells you all you need to know about that change. Injectors will provide unallocated SP and so are much more valuable than a character off the bazaar with fixed skill layout. A pirate ship will probably do all you wanted from the T3. If you are ISK rich enough for these injectors you are certainly ISK rich enough to use pirate ships in the meantime (many are much better than their tech II counterparts anyway). Somebody has to pay the RL money for you to buy PLEX in game for the injectors, if new money doesn't come into the game then all that will happen is PLEX inflation and older space rich players (or RL rich players) will hoover up all the SP initially extracted. Whilst I'm not one to quote Malcanis Law all the time in this case I believe it will very much apply. *If* this is good for new players (I don't believe it is in any way) then it'll be a damn sight better for older/rich players. The diminishing returns will not affect this as to the truly space rich paying more means absolutely nothing. so instead of sitting on my ass waiting for the skill que, i can PLAY to speed it up [/quote] yes skill injectors are unallocated. hence them costing more isk per SP than the characer bazaar. and with players controlling the market, the price can go up extremely high if players so choose.
and yes i could use a pirate ship. except again, its 2 weeks of training for support skills like gunnery, motion prediction and so on. not to lv 5 mind ya. but to lv 3-4. and lv 5 electronics.....
yes intially i expect the older richer players will hog all the SP initially extracted. which is why i suspect that when it first launches, players will price SP very high (on par with plex). and as demand drops, the price will drop.
its a market economy. demand and supply. price and demand. after the initially boom it will settle into a price level that majority of players are happy with.
and as i said numerous times now, if you have a problem with it. make a suggestion to a fix. not "remove it"
but instead something like
"limit how often u can inject SP" "limit how often you can extract SP" "what the AUR price should be" "what the diminishing return for high total SP characters should be"
and so on. |
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:52:30 -
[1231] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Why are you guys building a new interface for spending un-allocated skill points when you already have a queue interface in the game? A 'Right click -> Apply to queue' entry in the context menu of the un-allocatedskills entry seems like it would free up time for your developers to work on an existing, terrible interface, like drones or something. or the chat window xD how nice it would be if we could merge them all into 1 window, and have different chat channels have the name of their channel before the post
so like [Local] {player name} : post [Local] {player name} : post [Corporation]{player name}: post
bit like STO |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:58:53 -
[1232] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote: Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble
Wow are you for real? Your writing style reminds me of another toon much older than a "New Player" i cant quite put my finger on atm but it will come to me, for now i will call you a troll
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:00:32 -
[1233] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Yaasmine wrote: Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble Dribble
Wow are you for real? Your writing style reminds me of another toon much older than a "New Player" i cant quite put my finger on atm, but it will come to me, for now i will call you a troll someone like me o.0
this i gotta see.
also not a troll, cause unlike the doomcriers in this thread, i'm actually serious about what i say, using logic and offering midground. |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:04:44 -
[1234] - Quote
Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:06:12 -
[1235] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL meh, keep forgetting what char i'm on.
i do tend to make them look the same. and this is the char i try to focus on as its the one i made
still only got 1.1mill on this char so she cant really do much other than mine asteroids |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1968
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:07:48 -
[1236] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:
yes skill injectors are unallocated. hence them costing more isk per SP than the characer bazaar. and with players controlling the market, the price can go up extremely high if players so choose.
and yes i could use a pirate ship. except again, its 2 weeks of training for support skills like gunnery, motion prediction and so on. not to lv 5 mind ya. but to lv 3-4. and lv 5 electronics..... plus pirate ships cost alot more. and while right now i don't blind blowing a few up. in the future, i expect i wont look as favorably on that.
yes intially i expect the older richer players will hog all the SP initially extracted. which is why i suspect that when it first launches, players will price SP very high (on par with plex). and as demand drops, the price will drop.
Its a market economy. demand and supply. price and demand. after the initially boom it will settle into a price level that majority of players are happy with.
and as i said numerous times now, if you have a problem with it. make a suggestion to a fix. not "remove it"
but instead something like
"limit how often u can inject SP" "limit how often you can extract SP" "what the AUR price should be" "what the diminishing return for high total SP characters should be"
and so on.
The 2 weeks of training up skills for a pirate ship (I doubt it is that long to be honest for all level III's/IV's) would be taken up with you learning how to actually make use of those skills if you are a genuine new player. As for cost I thought you made several bil in your forst 2 weeks by mining? Pirate ships should be peanuts for you then.
Older players won't just hog the SP, they will control the market and decide the price of them forever more.
I do not suggest how to fix this mechanic as that would be an implicit acceptance of it. Of course it's coming as CCP won't back down but I won't justify the idea myself by saying how it could be made 'better' when I simply don't believe it can.
This is absolutely not the way to help new players and will fail in doing so. It will however help CCP's bottom line (whilst causing huge changes in the market potentially but what does that matter?). |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1968
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:09:25 -
[1237] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL
Oh dear... |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:13:51 -
[1238] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL Oh dear... correct. this is my main.
would you like to see how little SP she has? http://eveboard.com/pilot/Anabuki_Tomoko
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6933
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:18:23 -
[1239] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right?
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:20:59 -
[1240] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right? correct.
so for the vast majority of people, skill injectors do nothing that the character bazaar doesn't.
they will cost more per SP.
but they will me ideal for small boosts of SP rather than buying a whole new character.
even if your limited to 2 injections per 6 months, thats fine. and would be great for new characters. |
|
Segraina Skyblazer
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:21:25 -
[1241] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Segraina Skyblazer wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1 Just a bunch noobs looking for an easy mode Eve, how pathetic. This game is gone to get real boring soon. And I hate boredom. then leave already. you've threatened to quit enough. what you waiting for. sooner you leave, the sooner the game doesn't have to suffer your toxicity. Not until after I've watchlist you and kick your tail little girl.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3184
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:22:41 -
[1242] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right?
Made me smile - a lot
This is not a signature.
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:24:46 -
[1243] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL Oh dear... correct. this is my main. would you like to see how little SP she has? http://eveboard.com/pilot/Anabuki_Tomoko
You made over 6b (http://i.imgur.com/pJu6ELv.png) on that toon, I'd hate to imagine how...
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:25:32 -
[1244] - Quote
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Segraina Skyblazer wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1 Just a bunch noobs looking for an easy mode Eve, how pathetic. This game is gone to get real boring soon. And I hate boredom. then leave already. you've threatened to quit enough. what you waiting for. sooner you leave, the sooner the game doesn't have to suffer your toxicity. Not until after I've watchlist you and kick your tail little girl. go for it.
but if you fight like you argue in this forums. i doubt i'll have to worry
lets see, if you doom cry here, then in game i'd guess you self destruct in the middle of a fight. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:27:28 -
[1245] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL Oh dear... correct. this is my main. would you like to see how little SP she has? http://eveboard.com/pilot/Anabuki_Tomoko You made over 6b ( http://i.imgur.com/pJu6ELv.png) on that toon, I'd hate to imagine how... correct, though the price i paid for Yaas was different.
fun fact, you can make 50 mill from a single sleeper site.
can make 100mill in an hour
and 1b in a day easily.
and thats not including the gas production, the high valued abc ore. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:28:35 -
[1246] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right? correct. so for the vast majority of people, skill injectors do nothing that the character bazaar doesn't. they will cost more per SP. but they will me ideal for small boosts of SP rather than buying a whole new character. even if your limited to 2 injections per 6 months, thats fine. and would be great for new characters.
2 injections would be 1 mil SP i.e. 2 weeks training time, that will not make a difference in terms of the amounts players seem to think they require (10-15 mil SP) so such a limit would destroy the idea that this is to help anyone, let alone new players. |
Segraina Skyblazer
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:29:00 -
[1247] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL meh, keep forgetting what char i'm on. i do tend to make them look the same. and this is the char i try to focus on as its the one i made still only got 1.1mill on this char so she cant really do much other than mine asteroids I'll still put you both on my watchlist you trolling nooblet. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:30:12 -
[1248] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right? correct. so for the vast majority of people, skill injectors do nothing that the character bazaar doesn't. they will cost more per SP. but they will me ideal for small boosts of SP rather than buying a whole new character. even if your limited to 2 injections per 6 months, thats fine. and would be great for new characters. 2 injections would be 1 mil SP i.e. 2 weeks training time, that will not make a difference in terms of the amounts players seem to think they require (10-15 mil SP) so such a limit would destroy the idea that this is to help anyone, let alone new players.
oh?
give a new player 2 injectors
how much of a boost to what they are able to do would that give them?
maybe not to high SP players. but to new players, 1mill SP opens up alot more doors to what they are able to do.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:33:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right? correct. so for the vast majority of people, skill injectors do nothing that the character bazaar doesn't. they will cost more per SP. but they will me ideal for small boosts of SP rather than buying a whole new character. even if your limited to 2 injections per 6 months, thats fine. and would be great for new characters. 2 injections would be 1 mil SP i.e. 2 weeks training time, that will not make a difference in terms of the amounts players seem to think they require (10-15 mil SP) so such a limit would destroy the idea that this is to help anyone, let alone new players. oh? give a new player 2 injectors how much of a boost to what they are able to do would that give them? maybe not to high SP players. but to new players, 1mill SP opens up alot more doors to what they are able to do.
Not really as it would take them the two weeks of training time to learn what to do with the skills they have whilst training in the meantime. If this was to really help new players and 1 mil extra SP would do tha then the starter character would come with those SP out of the box. This is about making money and nothing else and it may well horribly backfire and just funnel any SP generated up to the top level of players.
Ed: Quick use case that pops into mind. A new player thinks "I'll buy two SP packs and put them into mining so I can make isk" then realizes 3 days in that they hate mining. What do they do then? Stop training down that route and switch to something else? Oh wait, that doesn't get them the 1 mil SP back though does it? Next up will be remaps for ISK to fix these types of problems. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:33:24 -
[1250] - Quote
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL meh, keep forgetting what char i'm on. i do tend to make them look the same. and this is the char i try to focus on as its the one i made still only got 1.1mill on this char so she cant really do much other than mine asteroids I'll still put you both on my watchlist you trolling nooblet. i'm so scared i'm shivering.
oh w8. thats my legs falling asleep from how little i care.
seriously, if you think you intimidate me, you really have no idea. i've spent 6 months with a clan who hated my guts stalking me on world of tanks. and i had a guild alliance in archeage who was offering 7 APEX for a confirmed kill of me (sorta stole their ship....with alot of valuables on it. they shouldnt have been in enemy territory~)
compared to both of those, your honestly nothing.
http://i.imgur.com/DWmy3Gz.png
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Not really as it would take them the two weeks of training time to learn what to do with the skills they have whilst training in the meantime. If this was to really help new players and 1 mil extra SP would do tha then the starter character would come with those SP out of the box. This is about making money and nothing else and it may well horribly backfire and just funnel any SP generated up to the top level of players.[/quote] except the SP u get as a new player is auto put into skills, and thus don't allow you to put them into what you want to focus in.
having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing. |
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4274
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:35:49 -
[1251] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:oh?
give a new player 2 injectors
how much of a boost to what they are able to do would that give them?
maybe not to high SP players. but to new players, 1mill SP opens up alot more doors to what they are able to do.
This is a fact.
When we all started EVE, even 1 day training seemed like forever.
And no, it's not because 'everyone wants instant gratification nowadays' lol. It's because as a new player, you're curious to try out lots of stuff, and not many (any?) games have RL training mechanic, so 'sorry you can do this, but you'll have to wait 'till next week' actually does sound strange to an EVE newbie.
When you get to the point where you're not even sure which skill to train, you tend to forget this simple fact.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:37:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:... having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing.
Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3184
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:37:34 -
[1253] - Quote
Yaasmine, I found someone who shares yours view.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZnv7ypMXKAhXI4SYKHXo2ClQQyCkIIjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhFDcoX7s6rE&usg=AFQjCNH6BYM8QiBC-E_czTCEOb6rykMmVQ&sig2=iBigqd-x5RSnAd8-EzWu3w
Kind regards.
This is not a signature.
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4274
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:38:59 -
[1254] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:... having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing. Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less. Hmm that applies only to highsec mission running, though. It's a terrible idea to put deadspace mods on a PVP ship in all new player PVP situations (e.g. RvB, FW, null starter corps, etc.)
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:41:04 -
[1255] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:... having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing. Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less. pirate ships requiring SP to use, and use effectively (for example, astero. you'll need drone skills, electronic, cloak, covert ops. how about garmur. you'll need shield skills, missiles velocity and signature radius. etc)
now what can 1mill SP get you? as a new player. 1mill SP can get you quiet alot of skills. enough to train up to be decent in a t2 or t1 shield of cruiser or lower. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:43:10 -
[1256] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: good song. but no. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:45:22 -
[1257] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Hmm that applies only to highsec mission running, though. It's a terrible idea to put deadspace mods on a PVP ship in all new player PVP situations (e.g. RvB, FW, null starter corps, etc.)
In all new player PvP having people buying there way in with SP so they can fly tech II rather than tech I sound awfully P2W (in this instance). And if primaried you will die whether in tech I or tech iI.
The main problem seems to be players telling new players what they can't do rather than showing what they *can* do. |
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:45:24 -
[1258] - Quote
ok, seeing as how this has turned into a personal attack against me. i'm leaving the thread.
gotta admit. you guys stabbed yourself in the foot. when Devs look at this thread and see how you act, doing what you say is the last thing they'll be thinking of.
thank you for acting in a way to ensure that CCP ignores you and puts in skill injectors.
peace out |
Decripid Sano
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:46:01 -
[1259] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote: JUNK. Seems like only you and your alts are the only ones hurrahing CCP for adding this money grab scheme to Eve. Hopefully by this time next year it would only be you and your trolling alts left playing this pitiful game. Hope you got deep wallets because people like you are going to be the only ones left to support Eve money problems, good luck with that.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:46:27 -
[1260] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:... having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing. Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less. pirate ships requiring SP to use, and use effectively (for example, astero. you'll need drone skills, electronic, cloak, covert ops. how about garmur. you'll need shield skills, missiles velocity and signature radius. etc) now what can 1mill SP get you? as a new player. 1mill SP can get you quiet alot of skills. enough to train up to be decent in a t2 or t1 shield of cruiser or lower.
Again you aren't exactly talking like a new player here...A truly new player would not know which skills are required to make a ship work as well as it can, they would be taking the time training to learn how these skills work. |
|
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:55:22 -
[1261] - Quote
Decripid Sano wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote: JUNK. Seems like only you and your alts are the only ones hurrahing CCP for adding this money grab scheme to Eve. Hopefully by this time next year it would only be you and your trolling alts left playing this pitiful game. Hope you got deep wallets because people like you are going to be the only ones left to support Eve money problems, good luck with that.
Why should we all be hurrahing? It's happening , all that's left is for the babies to cry about it. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
69
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 17:51:29 -
[1262] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:1000 AUR is not the "cheapest" price for an item in the online store. I think she/he meant that cheapest AUR package (5 euro) is gaving player almost 1000 AUR (900 exactly).
If the maximum skill points gained in a month = 2 million. Then the 4 extractors required to hold them will cost more than the cheapest subscription ($10.95) needed to train them. The cheapest methods of buying AURUM is the $100 packet of AURUM that makes 212 per dollar.
So the only thing we know about the cost is that they will be more than 583 Aurum per injector.
Although if CCP Seagull was referring to using multi-train feature the cost would be closer at 927 Aurum and the guess of least expensive AURUM packet = I extractor may be the best guess so far. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 18:02:22 -
[1263] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I never once waited for a skill to complete before playing the game, I simply played with the skills I had whilst others trained. As a new player these are all pretty much low multiplier skills that don't take that long anyway and would typically complete before you next log in. What is a "new player" here? Yes, in the first week or two most stuff one trains completes faster than one can be worried about. In part though because one is making "mistakes" about what one should be training to achieve certain things. Most "skill plans" get you to multi-day training pretty rapidly. Nowadays most stuff I drop in my queue is a day or more, some are up to 20 days. Or to be more precise, nowadays when I get a new skill it's not usually "oh, a new skill, shiny". It's more like "I need this skill at IV". And thus while I still do the quick level I, II, III trains, they are in fact annoying now. Because they take up multiple slots in the skill queue, unless I want to wait for one to finish to drop in the next level. And I don't think of myself as an "old player". I'm still pretty new.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:So which is it? You need 10-15 mill to be effective or you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills? If you need that 10-15 mill then you'd better pay the -ú90+ straight up (that's a conservative estimate by the way, almost certainly it would be higher). You need the 10-15M if you want to be a decent all-rounder with a couple of strong specialisations. If you want to be good at just one thing, then you need about 2-5M SP at minimum (it really depends a lot on what you want to be good at though - it could be a lot more). This does not mean that you cannot do anything before then. The opposite of "effective" ("efficient") is not "nothing", but "ineffective" ("inefficient"). And obviously you get more "effective" ("efficient") as you skill up, generally speaking.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:If you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills then cerebral accelerator implants built in game by players would have been a better choice. But then that wouldn't increase revenue in the same way would it? Even if it would be better for a new player too. Why would accelerators be better for new players? I used the blood ones. They were indeed better than nothing. I also got some unallocated SP (because of an accelerator glitch, actually). That was much nicer. If I had the choice between an accelerator that delivers 500k SP over its lifetime, or an injector that delivers 500k unallocated here and now, I would always opt for the latter.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I never forgot about the skill queue as it was (before this change) a part of the game to create and grow your character. Soon the space or RL rich will be able to circumvent that to a degree which diminishes the game in my view. And yet, you will carefully maintain your skill queue just the same. Because it actually doesn't matter in the slightest whether some rich guy can bling out their character skill-wise. Just as it doesn't matter in the slightest that they can bling out their ships, other than for entertainment when they get blown up. What matters for you is what you can do. And since the skill queue is setting thresholds on almost everything you would want to do in EVE, you will continue minding it carefully.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:II also never fixated on being perfect at any career. I trained the necessary skills to level III or IV as required and just got on with the game in the meantime. As I determined whether I wanted to go further with that career I specialized some training into it whilst learning how to use the lower level skills to their maximum effect. Never once have I not logged in due to a skill training. And you are the measure of all things EVE? One of the wort things about these discussions is that everybody thinks that everybody else has to build sandcastles in just the way they do, or they do not belong into this sandbox. If you like to wing things, are satisfied with the second best, or even the tenth, and generally half-arse EVE to your great enjoyment - well, good on you! But not everybody is like you. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 18:38:31 -
[1264] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Buy PLEX: CCP gets 20 Gé¼/$, you get 2,000,000 SP and are subscribed for one month. Buy 2,000,000 SP: CCP gets 2 Gé¼/$, you get 2,000,000 SP and save yourself 18 Gé¼/$ and subscribing for a month. Why would CCP dismiss the opportunity cost of skill packets? Each 4 packets mean that they're losing a whole month of subscription... why shouldn't they pass on that cost to the customer? CCP earns from the injectors (1) by virtue of the skill training that needs to be subscribed for, valued at 0.25*PLEX per injector roughly, and (2) by the additional overhead of selling the empty extractors for AUR in the store.
Even if the empty extractors would cost nothing, and were given out free to everybody in abundance, CCP wouldn't lose a penny. Somebody somewhere does have to pay for the 0.25*PLEX of SP extracted. All SP come from a player, the SP gets into the player only via a subscription, the subscription is being paid for by real cash one way or the other.
What is true is that there is a large SP pool, which players have build up (and paid for!) over time. If the SP filling the injectors comes from that pool, then it would be more accurate to say that CCP has profited in the past from training this SP. They will not get money for this training now. So in that sense CCP could "lose money" now, namely by seeing that SP pool drain instead of new SP being trained (and being paid for now).
But that is the opposite of "greedy". It would mean that CCP has identified the stagnant SP pool they have build up in the past to their profit as a big problem for the game now. And they are willing to drain it now, even if that means that they will lose out on some cash. Good on them!
Furthermore, I still have to subscribe even if I buy four skill packets. The skill packets are extra, they do not replace the subscription. It is possible that I will unsubscribe earlier, because of skilling up faster. If for some reason it were the case that I would unsubscribe at 20M SP no matter what, then skill packets would be in direct competition will subscription in the sense of getting me there. It is however also possible that I will not unsubscribe as quickly, because of skilling up faster. Maybe I find the game at 20M SP more engaging, and hence stick around, whereas I would have given up if I had to try to get the SP via subscription. If the "higher SP" game in EVE is more interesting than the "lower SP" one, then the latter is more likely than the former. And that means that CCP can have reasonable hope of actually getting more, not less, subscription money thanks to this.
It remains true though that CCP cannot charge too much for the extractor, or this will not only not fly, but backfire severely. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 18:48:20 -
[1265] - Quote
What would you say is too much for an empty extractor? Or a full one? Disregard the undetermined AUR price, but say a range that would persuade you as a new player and a price range to which you find yourself repulsed by..
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3616
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:04:53 -
[1266] - Quote
https://twitter.com/JadekMenaheim/status/689402088711847937
CCPlease do.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
Every part of a game helps to tell a story.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:09:29 -
[1267] - Quote
Also, if the injection were to apply itself as 'Unallocated Reserve' SP, such as when you are given credit for removed skills or bugs (like the cerebral accelerators) then a very rich and very motivated pilot could simply inject countless full extractors to a pilot that sits at sub 5m SP (or has been reduced to nothing by extractors), while refraining from attributing/applying them until he is ready to gorge on the unallocated SP bank. So, either CCP generates a block that forces you to apply unallocated SP before the next injection (which could run into some issues on future allocations that cannot be applied due to an unallocated reserve being present) or have the system recognize the unallocated SP together with the accrued SP as the total character SP.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
136
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:13:26 -
[1268] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:https://twitter.com/JadekMenaheim/status/689402088711847937
CCPlease do.
I don't see the difference by injected skills to injected SP. Clones are not updated as time progresses, but are installed with the SP or experience of the pilot. I see this idea as contrary to the lore on a foundational level. But it was funny.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Algarion Getz
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:30:52 -
[1269] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole. have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection. that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage. You are an exception. Most new players dont have access to mining and ratting in WH space. No good WH corp accepts hordes of random new players. Most new players spend their first days or even weeks in high sec, doing stuff like missions, mining and exploration. Maybe they join a newbie corp like EUNI or Brave Newbies, where they receive a lot of help, but their ISK/h will still be relatively low.
Imagine being a (really) new player:
- you heard all the news about the 100,000$ battles (EVE's "expensive" battles are probably the most common "fact" non-EVE players know about the game)
- you see that older players have tons of SP
- you have to train skills the normal way (= slow)
- you get owned by T3 destroyers in your badly skilled T1 frigate
- ISK/h is like ... 10mil? Maybe 20?
Then you see the ads for skill injectors (im sure CCP will advertise them in some way to new players):
"tired of waiting? buy a shortcut!"
I guess the injectors will cost something like 500mil ISK. So as a newbie you will need about 30h of ISK grinding to buy one or 20$ for a PLEX to buy 2. Technically its not 100% P2W, but it will look like it for new players. Thats terrible, because most players leave when they realise a game is P2W.
IF you really want to help new players give them more start SP and a long-lasting cerebral accelerator. A feature that allows selling SP for cash is inconsiderate, shortsighted, superficial and also dishonest. I would expect such a feature from a company like EA, but not CCP. |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:45:34 -
[1270] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole. have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection. that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage. You are an exception. Most new players dont have access to mining and ratting in WH space. No good WH corp accepts hordes of random new players. Most new players spend their first days or even weeks in high sec, doing stuff like missions, mining and exploration. Maybe they join a newbie corp like EUNI or Brave Newbies, where they receive a lot of help, but their ISK/h will still be relatively low. Imagine being a (really) new player:
- you heard all the news about the 100,000$ battles (EVE's "expensive" battles are probably the most common "fact" non-EVE players know about the game)
- you see that older players have tons of SP
- you have to train skills the normal way (= slow)
- you get owned by T3 destroyers in your badly skilled T1 frigate
- ISK/h is like ... 10mil? Maybe 20?
Then you see the ads for skill injectors (im sure CCP will advertise them in some way to new players): "tired of waiting? buy a shortcut!" I guess the injectors will cost something like 500mil ISK. So as a newbie you will need about 30h of ISK grinding to buy one or 20$ for a PLEX to buy 2. Technically its not 100% P2W, but it will look like it for new players. Thats terrible, because most players leave when they realise a game is P2W. IF you really want to help new players give them more start SP and a long-lasting cerebral accelerator. A feature that allows selling SP for cash is inconsiderate, shortsighted, superficial and also dishonest. I would expect such a feature from a company like EA, but not CCP.
But it isn't made for all new players, it's for new players with money to spend that would have to work within the character bazaar. They found problems with the Bazaar, so this is what the plan is to fix that problem.
|
|
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
5340
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:48:20 -
[1271] - Quote
This is a terrible idea.
I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.
||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
137
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:53:27 -
[1272] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:
"tired of waiting? buy a shortcut!"
I guess the injectors will cost something like 500mil ISK. So as a newbie you will need about 30h of ISK grinding to buy one or 20$ for a PLEX to buy 2. Technically its not 100% P2W, but it will look like it for new players. Thats terrible, because most players leave when they realise a game is P2W.
IF you really want to help new players give them more start SP and a long-lasting cerebral accelerator. A feature that allows selling SP for cash is inconsiderate, shortsighted, superficial and also dishonest. I would expect such a feature from a company like EA, but not CCP.
You can always have a new player purchase PLEX to purchase skill stems. Many pilots already consider PLEX as p2w or paying to avoid the grind. The bazaar, PLEX, injectors, all these are RMT transactions.
When I started I left because of P2W. Not pay to win, but Pay To Wait. I was not impatient, but I did feel like I was being had to sit on a 2 week timer for a ship and not really knowing or having experience in other things that were available to occupy my time until then. The new player experience is to blame in most cases of noob frustration. There are no clear road signs that breadcrumb a newby towards good content that can keep you busy while you wait: COSMOS agents, Epic Arcs, Landmarks.
We need something like Lore Agents which can be perhaps a 5th profession or tutorial branch.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
138
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 19:59:26 -
[1273] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:This is a terrible idea.
Your eloquence in defining why is is so impressive I am speechless. It was so amazing and helpful.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
76
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:16:13 -
[1274] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Jack Carrigan wrote:This is a terrible idea. Your eloquence in defining why it is is so impressive I am speechless. It was so amazing and helpful.
That would be an opinion, not a definition. Opinions too, have their place. |
Zombeilord Zantra
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:27:36 -
[1275] - Quote
After some thought on this, and many people talk about it being used with new players or how it is P2W, I don't see it much anymore and depending on how much it will cost on the open market in eve, I will say it will fluctuate till something reasonable or consistent is set by the players, and although it will be in the end more or less a booster, most people will not mind a 30 minute to a couple days worth of waiting time and use these injectors more for the week two week or even a month worth of waiting time then on something that take again 30 minutes to 2 days, because to be honest not everyone will have the money to buy tons of extractors, now if the extractors are sold in a quantity of lets say 2-3 that I can see, but in the end they will be cheap enough but high costing in isk for the injectors which CCP is not going to be selling in the online market, also thinking about it to.
Has anyone thought that there will be a wait time for the extractors to finish filling up, because in the image they show it gives off that you might have to wait a tad bit for it to extract, and who says you cannot use your own SP that you extract and re-purpose it into your own skill training, I see that being done more then buying the injectors,
I am by the way for it and though their is a split in what everyone see it in, I think everyone will just have to wait and see how it end up, for the best or the worst, we will not know till it comes out. Speculating on it is good an all to, and everyone has their own opinion even if it is toxic or not. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
139
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:28:47 -
[1276] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Jack Carrigan wrote:This is a terrible idea. Your eloquence in defining why it is is so impressive I am speechless. It was so amazing and helpful. That would be an opinion, not a definition. Opinions too, have their place.
So do the thumb's up, which take up much less space than empty opinions.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
76
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:36:29 -
[1277] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:
So do the thumb's up, which take up much less space than empty opinions.
But hardly appropriate for a terrible idea. |
Pakokkie
Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels
107
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:41:26 -
[1278] - Quote
Yes, come trough with the sp trading.
This will happen:
New brothers with zero experience buy a lot of skillpoints, then they buy a big ship, throw some uber modules on it and poof, they pop!
Let the funtimes begin!
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
257
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:52:30 -
[1279] - Quote
Why has CCP not told how many Aurum to buy an injector? They know no matter where it's priced, there will be even more upset. Pulling out my trusty cards and ball, let me take a guesstimate on the amount.
Enuf that an Aurum package will Always be just short of one more, and will cost more than the lowest priced package! Considering a month of account time with USD plus any currency exchange fee is in the neighborhood of just a smidge under $20, figuring 2-3 (and short an additional!) injectors will be one foldable Jackson. ($20 for those not looking at a handy 'Merican Greenback)
This goes beyond double dipping on CCP's side of the transactions, but should we be shocked? NO! Why? They're bound and determined that Valkyrie is the future of their gaming company, and be dammed the time invested here in Eve, the running off of some vets in the name of short term gains from fickle R00kies, and those that for various reasons will not be making the jump to a VR headset.
Plex sales out the wazoo. Aurum package discounts. SKINs from Rens to Jita to Dod-Mart. Now injectors.
The new and improved CCP policy to it's customer base playing Eve. Take them for all the cash they're willing to fork over, ignore any long term disasters this might cause. Promises? Policy? Out the window, they've got higher priorities than fixing bugs, keeping their word, or giving a tinker's damn about Customers that have supported them this far.
After all, we're replaceable with the next batch of suckers with CC numbers in-hand.
Would a company willingly and purposefully suicide gank themselves for the KM brag rights, only to close up shop due to budget crisis? Guess in the next 1-3 years we'll all find out the answer. I suggest polishing up those resumes. I also suggest not applying for employment at Paradox Games. They might remember you......
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 21:37:53 -
[1280] - Quote
VR is unlikely to be anything but a brief bubble on the market, for all the reasons Extra Credit (YouTube video) mentions. CCP would be really foolish to bet their company on that.
And Paradox is the software company I've spent most of my gaming hours on... I'm really looking forward to their SF offering Stellaris. |
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
259
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 21:55:05 -
[1281] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:VR is unlikely to be anything but a brief bubble on the market, for all the reasons Extra Credit (YouTube video) mentions. CCP would be really foolish to bet their company on that. And Paradox is the software company I've spent most of my gaming hours on... I'm really looking forward to their SF offering Stellaris.
Paradox has several in their higher up ranks that were booted during the World of Darkness MMO shuttering by CCP. Probably not the place former CCP employees need to go when it's job headhunting time. I'm gleefully awaiting what they'll cook up with any of the White Wolf IP lines! VR might be a temporary bubble in gaming experiences, as the Virtual (Headache) Boy demonstrated from Nintendo. Or the choice of those with more money than they know what to spend it on.
CCP has a proven track record of foolish decisions, as older articles clearly demonstrate. My fingers are crossed that they don't cook the Golden Goose which is Eve Online for bets on 'maybes' 'possibles' and 'sudden giant uptick in new customers by tossing out the bitter vets'.
SP trading in this manner, using injectors bought with Aurum from the New Eden Store is a patented Bad Idea. There's a character bazaar if someone's in that big a hurry. This is the open door to Gold Ammo microtransaction sales that CCP as a company swore would not happen on their watch.
No open door in the Captain's Quarters, but a welcome mat in place for pay to win/fast track. Disheartening.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4593
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 22:22:19 -
[1282] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:VR is unlikely to be anything but a brief bubble on the market, for all the reasons Extra Credit (YouTube video) mentions. CCP would be really foolish to bet their company on that.And Paradox is the software company I've spent most of my gaming hours on... I'm really looking forward to their SF offering Stellaris.
Well, the fact is that CCP has got 30 million $ of investor money to develop VR games. Also VR is something very close to Hilmar's heart.
So you bet CCP is going to bet hard on VR. They really could use to make a successful game again, too.
Personally I don't think that VR will become a thing. My reasons are somehow related to Extra Credit's, but with the extra point that I am physically incompatible with VR devices. I am barely functional without my eyeglasses, and VR devices, for some strange reason related to their developers being healthy young males, are not compatible with correction lenses. And guess what? At some point in life, 80% of the population will need to wear correction lenses, at least for (roll the drums) short distance.
I was young during the 90's VR craze. What failed was not that they demanded to suspend disbelief more than contemporary computer graphics. So them being better now makes no difference to the core issues.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Summer-Louise Moore
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 22:22:23 -
[1283] - Quote
I very rarely post on the forums, but with this I fell like I have to.
After reading a lot of the posts. I have to say, limiting the SP trading in some way. Is the way to go, if CCP are going to go through with this. If left as an unlimited option, then I believe it will hurt the game in the long run. As people have all ready said.
I will be here to see what happens. As my subscription is paid for, months in advance. But what happens at the end, well we shall see.
My last thought is. If you are insistent on doing this SP trading CCP. Go back to the drawing board, and think more on it. Taking into account what the people here on the forum have said. |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
29
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 22:58:44 -
[1284] - Quote
Segraina Skyblazer wrote:Yaasmine wrote:[quote=Filip Ernaga]As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) .
Saying that skills that increase PG and CPU and dont give you new guns or ships have no impact on the game is idiotic and clearly shows that you dont know enough about eve to post on the forums. Please leave immediately or be escorted from the premises.
The player that has taken the time to train that extra 2% of cpu skills has a significant advantage over someone who hasnt. that is the difference between T1 and T2 modules, low class officer modules and high class modules, MWD over AB, extra damage mod over a nanocomputer, empty clone over having to have a +2% implant to fly a doctrine fit.
Not every skill should have immediate results with a huge neon arrow sign and a written explanation of all the new things you can do. But every level in a skill makes you a little better at SOMETHING, and to get that skill you need to dedicate the TIME into training it, thats what has always made eve unique, it required patience for xp, not a grind. As far as Im concerned any player who isnt willing to wait for a skill to train isnt patient enough to play EvE and would quit eventually anyways.
Also, I still dont understand why people keep insisting that buying injectors with isk means its not being bought with real money. ALL INJECTORS COME FROM THE NEW EDEN EXCHANGE. NEW EDEN EXCHANGE USES AURUM. AURUM IS BOUGHT WITH PLEX. PLEX IS BOUGHT WITH REAL MONEY. Apparently someone has to say this at the beginning of every new page for everyone who cant look farther back than the double click they have to do. Its a cash grab, its a bad idea, and it represents CCP breaking a promise made to the players. There is absolutely nothing good about this other than rich kids willing to spend real money can lose battleships faster and impatient people dont have to wait as long for things WORTH waiting for anymore |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 23:19:21 -
[1285] - Quote
Yyou don't need to use real money to get AUR. That's the part you don't understand, and clearly shows that you don't know enough about common sense to be posting anywhere. |
Memphis Baas
989
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 23:51:02 -
[1286] - Quote
Why not limit yourself to posting your opinion, and stop trying to prevent others from posting theirs. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 23:51:33 -
[1287] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:Also, I still dont understand why people keep insisting that buying injectors with isk means its not being bought with real money. ALL INJECTORS COME FROM THE NEW EDEN EXCHANGE. NEW EDEN EXCHANGE USES AURUM. AURUM IS BOUGHT WITH PLEX. PLEX IS BOUGHT WITH REAL MONEY. Apparently someone has to say this at the beginning of every new page for everyone who cant look farther back than the double click they have to do. Its a cash grab, its a bad idea, and it represents CCP breaking a promise made to the players. There is absolutely nothing good about this other than rich kids willing to spend real money can lose battleships faster and impatient people dont have to wait as long for things WORTH waiting for anymore Everything people can buy beyond the sub is a cash grab by that definition, including PLEX, Bazaar transfers and anything you can get via AUR. It's a pretty meaningless distinction that frankly doesn't have any bearing on whether an idea is good.
No ones forgetting CCP stands to make money from this. Many just understand end users of the SP don't have to themselves, and more importantly, CCP making money from something isn't the mark of a bad idea. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3356
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:01:17 -
[1288] - Quote
Out of curiousity . . .
How many of you who think this is great for the newbros will be donating some of your skills to help a new guy out? Not asking them to reach for a credit card but just out of the goodness of your own heart or to aid a fellow member of the corp?
If you do see someone hand a skill packet over for free what do you think the chances are that there was a deal made out of game and the possibility that real money traded hands?
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:09:26 -
[1289] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:...How many of you who think this is great for the newbros... Define newbro please. I like the idea, but I don't think players under say 10-20m SP are the ones who are going to get the most out of it.
Either way that's likely a no, the decision to wait till they can earn the isk or reach for the CC isn't one I feel I can or should be responsible for when it comes to another player. Besides, even if I gave them the first hit, who's to say they won't go back for more?
Regarding RMT implications, how is it any difference than seeing people hand out random isk (this does happen from time to time in NPC corp chat)? |
Tomoko Tanue
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:10:00 -
[1290] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Out of curiousity . . .
How many of you who think this is great for the newbros will be donating some of your skills to help a new guy out? Not asking them to reach for a credit card but just out of the goodness of your own heart or to aid a fellow member of the corp?
If you do see someone hand a skill packet over for free what do you think the chances are that there was a deal made out of game and the possibility that real money traded hands?
m i think its great for new people yes. But don't have the skill points to donate myself. I'll definitely be buying them though. |
|
LizzieBabeh DieselJane
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:25:20 -
[1291] - Quote
As a newly returning player i'd love SP trading <3 <3!!!!! |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
399
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:28:53 -
[1292] - Quote
Tomoko Tanue wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Out of curiousity . . .
How many of you who think this is great for the newbros will be donating some of your skills to help a new guy out? Not asking them to reach for a credit card but just out of the goodness of your own heart or to aid a fellow member of the corp?
If you do see someone hand a skill packet over for free what do you think the chances are that there was a deal made out of game and the possibility that real money traded hands?
m i think its great for new people yes. But don't have the skill points to donate myself. I'll definitely be buying them though. It is amusing, these new players don't seem realise that they are going to be simply giving us older player free ISK and game time. Personally I have enough SP that I can afford to have an SP farming character on every account alongside the many alts I no longer need which I can skim for extra SP. This change will benefit me greatly in the short to medium term at least.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
140
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:29:29 -
[1293] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:
So do the thumb's up, which take up much less space than empty opinions.
But hardly appropriate for a terrible idea.
Yet appropriate enough for pointless inconsequential childish antagonism? A person that welcomes opinion, but disallows any criticism of that opinion, has little to add to the forum, as it exists here and in its most ancient setting and origin. Even still, I expected more from Carrigan, who has always been well spoken. Surely he could look deep enough to do better than that, to give shape to his dissent.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:48:35 -
[1294] - Quote
malaka katsika wrote: Yyou don't need to use real money to get AUR. That's the part you don't understand, and clearly shows that you don't know enough about common sense to be posting anywhere.
No, YOU dont need to spend real money to get AUR, but someone DOES use real money to buy the Plex that you buy for isk to convert to AUR.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote:Also, I still dont understand why people keep insisting that buying injectors with isk means its not being bought with real money. ALL INJECTORS COME FROM THE NEW EDEN EXCHANGE. NEW EDEN EXCHANGE USES AURUM. AURUM IS BOUGHT WITH PLEX. PLEX IS BOUGHT WITH REAL MONEY. Apparently someone has to say this at the beginning of every new page for everyone who cant look farther back than the double click they have to do. Its a cash grab, its a bad idea, and it represents CCP breaking a promise made to the players. There is absolutely nothing good about this other than rich kids willing to spend real money can lose battleships faster and impatient people dont have to wait as long for things WORTH waiting for anymore Everything people can buy beyond the sub is a cash grab by that definition, including PLEX, Bazaar transfers and anything you can get via AUR. It's a pretty meaningless distinction that frankly doesn't have any bearing on whether an idea is good. No ones forgetting CCP stands to make money from this. Many just understand end users of the SP don't have to themselves, and more importantly, CCP making money from something isn't the mark of a bad idea.
I have no problem with CCP making cash grabs. nothing else in the NEX bothers me. Ship skins were a great idea, i was behind it 100%. Cosmetic with no tangible effect on the game by spending real money. Awesome.
HOWEVER, after the summer of rage with monocles and disgusting leaked dev blogs from CCP developers, CCP swore to never implement a feature that would fundamentally change the game that has to/can be bought with real money. Specifically they promised all items in the NEX would only be vanity items and never advance players who spend real money. I dont care that they are trying to make money, they need it to make the game better. I just care that they are doing it in the one way they promised they wouldnt.
Also I think its just a bad idea to make SP available in any way besides time investment. But you all seem more concerned about the prices and financial implications |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
140
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:53:25 -
[1295] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:
Also I think its just a bad idea to make SP available in any way besides time investment. But you all seem more concerned about the prices and financial implications
We've given many examples of how a new player can make use of this feature, which could make a new player stay by just being an option that is available than the only other option that has been present, the one of tiresome waiting - which so many people look back at, incredibly, with fondness! That said, and the fact that they are coming whether we like it or not, the biggest unknown factor must be discussed: pricing of the injectors.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:56:25 -
[1296] - Quote
Honestly this forum is completely moot at this point anyways. No devs have responded to this thread in literally a week, and that was to respond to a question that was answered in the initial post anyways. i wouldnt be surprised if they arent even reading it anymore. They must have gotten sick of the 75% of people who are telling them theyre in the wrong and now theyre sitting with their hands over their ears and eyes closed acting like they only saw the minority of posts that praised them for this |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 00:58:28 -
[1297] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote:
Also I think its just a bad idea to make SP available in any way besides time investment. But you all seem more concerned about the prices and financial implications
We've given many examples of how a new player can make use of this feature, which could make a new player stay by just being an option that is available than the only other option that has been present, the one of tiresome waiting - which so many people look back at, incredibly, with fondness! That said, and the fact that they are coming whether we like it or not, the biggest unknown factor must be discussed: pricing of the injectors.
If these are priced at any price close to what new players could afford then they would be snapped up as they are produced by the rich lazy people before new players even figured out how to navigate the market. |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:04:10 -
[1298] - Quote
Every "New" player that uses SP injectors will be an alt with a rich main, unless an actual noob spends real money to make billions fast or the occasional lucky explorer/ratter or dedicated miner.
And its not the waiting that i see with fondness, i hated waiting. it was terrible. the anticipation comes from finally FINISHING that skill training. Eve is a game that requires patience, and the SP was always a unique system by NOT being a grind. |
Zakks
Zakks Shop
24
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:05:02 -
[1299] - Quote
I just reached 20M skill points. Now I am feeling that my accomplishment is moot, as skillpoints have been monotized in a blatant cash grab that breaks the promise CCP made (before I joined).
I won't be resubbing or plexing after all. Pay-to-play doesn't mesh with pay-to-win. I'll go play some F2P game instead, there are lots to choose from. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:08:17 -
[1300] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:HOWEVER, after the summer of rage with monocles and disgusting leaked dev blogs from CCP developers, CCP swore to never implement a feature that would fundamentally change the game that has to/can be bought with real money. Specifically they promised all items in the NEX would only be vanity items and never advance players who spend real money. To be blunt, what their selling isn't an advantage. It's the ability to level down a character. Ironically the convolutedness of this plan compared to direct SP sale that some say would be better is likely a direct result of this policy.
Zee Zaugg wrote:Also I think its just a bad idea to make SP available in any way besides time investment. But you all seem more concerned about the prices and financial implications 3 months ago the question was "should we?" Now we have the response of "we will," agree or not. The arguments about whether we should are no longer as relevant as the missing detail of the aur cost quite frankly. So yes, many are focusing on the cost, because the rest is honestly a bit of a waste save sustaining the argument.
Beyond that SP is still only available through time investment from paid accounts, the same as ever. The only difference it that it's not stuck where it was trained. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:11:47 -
[1301] - Quote
Zakks wrote:I just reached 20M skill points. Now I am feeling that my accomplishment is moot, as skillpoints have been monotized in a blatant cash grab that breaks the promise CCP made (before I joined).
I won't be resubbing or plexing after all. Pay-to-play doesn't mesh with pay-to-win. I'll go play some F2P game instead, there are lots to choose from. Skill points were already monetized. Note how they only accrue of paid accounts. It's literally the only reason I have more than one account now, and further, why I stayed subbed during long stretches of inactivity.
|
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
31
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:19:47 -
[1302] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote:HOWEVER, after the summer of rage with monocles and disgusting leaked dev blogs from CCP developers, CCP swore to never implement a feature that would fundamentally change the game that has to/can be bought with real money. Specifically they promised all items in the NEX would only be vanity items and never advance players who spend real money. To be blunt, what their selling isn't an advantage. It's the ability to level down a character. Ironically the convolutedness of this plan compared to direct SP sale that some say would be better is likely a direct result of this policy.
If SP could only be trained on one account per person then youd be absolutely right. It would be a resource that weakens others in exchange for isk, which would be pretty balanced. but the fact that this game actually encourages having multiple accounts completely negates this point. Not sure why everyone is acting like it will all come from people quitting the game or vets with too many skills they dont use. A vast majority of all SP sold will come from alts who either A) dont need SP or B)were created for the sole purpose of farming SP. If this was just something that could come from older players it wouldnt be as bad, but since any player a week or so in could sell them it is highly abusable.
If you cant see sp farms made with the sole purpose of funneling sp to a main then you are blind. only way to combat that would to make injectors very expensive, which would then negate the "help the newbie" argument |
Memphis Baas
989
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:19:54 -
[1303] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:How many of you who think this is great for the newbros will be donating some of your skills to help a new guy out? Not asking them to reach for a credit card but just out of the goodness of your own heart or to aid a fellow member of the corp?
This is why I suggested that CCP set up a donation bin where THEY can verify true newbie status and hand out injectors. Veterans donate (like for Plex4Good) and CCP gives to newbies.
Otherwise, in-corp / in-alliance, probably after they pass the API check and if they show promise.
|
Anabuki Tomoko
Touch of Death
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:24:09 -
[1304] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:How many of you who think this is great for the newbros will be donating some of your skills to help a new guy out? Not asking them to reach for a credit card but just out of the goodness of your own heart or to aid a fellow member of the corp? This is why I suggested that CCP set up a donation bin where THEY can verify true newbie status and hand out injectors. Veterans donate (like for Plex4Good) and CCP gives to newbies. Otherwise, in-corp / in-alliance, probably after they pass the API check and if they show promise. or give skill injectors as a reward for finishing an Agent line mission your first time.
so you finish the mining agent mission. you get 500k skill points. this would let you flesh out your mining skill a bit
you finish the miltary agent mission. you get 500k skill points. this would let you flesh out some combat skills.
and so on. no market change. limited to low SP chars. and the SP is given to them right after they learn the basics of a subject. which also incentives them to do tutorial-like stuff. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:26:36 -
[1305] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:If these are priced at any price close to what new players could afford then they would be snapped up as they are produced by the rich lazy people before new players even figured out how to navigate the market. Are you predicting an impending invasion of EVE by "rich lazy people" from outside? There are thousands of spoiled millionaire brats out there who are just waiting for EVE to show a crack in its defences, where they can insert their platinum credit card and pry the game wide open?
Or are the "rich lazy people" you are talking about here the ISK-bloated EVE elite of the game today? That would be the people who have "won" the purportedly pure EVE that still exists now, and thus supposedly are the masters of delayed gratification who worked their hands bloody on unyielding, punishing game mechanics to be on the top of the most brutal game ever. Or something like that...
So which army of the rich am I supposed to be afraid of here? An incoming swarm of the real life rich that will bury EVE in mountains of real world cash, or the vengeful troops of the 1% of EVE who will strangle us with the dead hands of their ISK gerontocracy?
Or maybe it will be both, and Jita will be Smaug's mountain where we sit on a stash of unallocated SP and see the dark forces amass from all sides to claim their share?
Oh SP, my Precious. |
Memphis Baas
989
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:29:47 -
[1306] - Quote
To clarify, I have no illusions that injectors are within reach for newbies; if veterans don't donate, newbies won't be able to afford any. CCP could give them some, but if they don't set up a donation bin, they'll have to create SP out of thin air to give to newbies, and I think they're against that. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:30:47 -
[1307] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:If SP could only be trained on one account per person then youd be absolutely right. It would be a resource that weakens others in exchange for isk, which would be pretty balanced. but the fact that this game actually encourages having multiple accounts completely negates this point. Not sure why everyone is acting like it will all come from people quitting the game or vets with too many skills they dont use. A vast majority of all SP sold will come from alts who either A) dont need SP or B)were created for the sole purpose of farming SP. If this was just something that could come from older players it wouldnt be as bad, but since any player a week or so in could sell them it is highly abusable.
If you cant see sp farms made with the sole purpose of funneling sp to a main then you are blind. only way to combat that would to make injectors very expensive, which would then negate the "help the newbie" argument I don't think any of it will come from quitters, nor do I know of many who think it will. If they quit why would they bother?
And some WILL come from people shedding skills, because it's quick effortless isk, but that's not sustainable. It's entirely dependent long term on the idea of farming for sale. It also becomes near entirely pointless for trades within an account. A few players who feel the messed up on their skills end up using it once, and beyond that the best you can hope for is a few players chasing the FOTM every few months.
Also, what reason is there to bar week old characters from any part of this (leaving aside for the moment that they are excluded from extracting SP unless they injected to 5.5m before that point)? |
Zakks
Zakks Shop
24
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:38:10 -
[1308] - Quote
If we are opening the SP door anyway, can I not just donate this character to PLEX4GOOD on the Bazaar? It's an auction house ahyway, and the highest bid goes to charity... |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:39:15 -
[1309] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote:If these are priced at any price close to what new players could afford then they would be snapped up as they are produced by the rich lazy people before new players even figured out how to navigate the market. Are you predicting an impending invasion of EVE by "rich lazy people" from outside? There are thousands of spoiled millionaire brats out there who are just waiting for EVE to show a crack in its defences, where they can insert their platinum credit card and pry the game wide open? Or are the "rich lazy people" you are talking about here the ISK-bloated EVE elite of the game today? That would be the people who have "won" the purportedly pure EVE that still exists now, and thus supposedly are the masters of delayed gratification who worked their hands bloody on unyielding, punishing game mechanics to be on the top of the most brutal game ever. Or something like that... So which army of the rich am I supposed to be afraid of here? An incoming swarm of the real life rich that will bury EVE in mountains of real world cash, or the vengeful troops of the 1% of EVE who will strangle us with the dead hands of their ISK gerontocracy? Or maybe it will be both, and Jita will be Smaug's mountain where we sit on a stash of unallocated SP and see the dark forces amass from all sides to claim their share? Oh SP, my Precious.
Idiocy aside id say a little of both. I dont predict swarms of people to come to eve because of the "chink in its armor", however i do expect that new players who join that wouldnt usually be patient enough to sit through the skill queue will now stay and skip ahead in SP. This sounds fine on paper, more subscriptions! Great! But in reality it would create more entitled group of players, and it would skyrocket the people with money to blow on video games past the new players who start at the same time who dont pay extra for the sp boost. Theres no situation that the average new player benefits from this, not unless the distribution is handled by some method other than the market or contracts. In other words, not by the players.
And that "1%" makes up a lot of players, and gets bigger every year. if it didnt PLEX prices wouldnt be so high and going up a good chunk a year. When i started 6 years ago PLEX was like 400mil. With introduction of Incursions, WH loot, moon redistribution, and other things, there are more than enough players capable of clearing the market of skill injectors, especially because of the bottleneck that will happen as people try to get their farms to keep up with demand |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:39:51 -
[1310] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:VR is unlikely to be anything but a brief bubble on the market, for all the reasons Extra Credit (YouTube video) mentions. CCP would be really foolish to bet their company on that.And Paradox is the software company I've spent most of my gaming hours on... I'm really looking forward to their SF offering Stellaris. Well, the fact is that CCP has got 30 million $ of investor money to develop VR games. Also VR is something very close to Hilmar's heart.
Like Tristan Agion i also believe VR will be a flop.
World of Darkness= Fail (Say no more)
EvE Online= Success (so far)
EvE is unique, it has outlasted nearly all MMO's that were available in 2003 and some of the most popular since.
New eden could last another 12 years, but i doubt it very much with upcoming patch.
Sry for the dribble, i just love this ******* game
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
|
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
32
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:47:23 -
[1311] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Zee Zaugg]
Edit: And as already addressed, the nature of gaining SP already drives multiple account holding. And remaining subbed while inactive. And PLEX consumption via the Bazaar. And PLEX sales to afford Bazaar characters.
As already addressed, the Bazaar comes with drawbacks. Past history, contacts, a corp list, a character birth date. And it doesnt let you customize your sp exactly how you want it. The "its the same as the bazaar" comment has been done to death and isnt even worth responding anymore, because it isnt. And for the record the bazaar was also a terrible idea but at least it wasnt done through the NEX.
And even if inactive, if your subbing the account thats still time investment, whether you watch the sand fall through the hourglass or not.
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 01:52:10 -
[1312] - Quote
Zakks wrote:I just reached 20M skill points. Now I am feeling that my accomplishment is moot, as skillpoints have been monotized in a blatant cash grab that breaks the promise CCP made (before I joined). Your accomplishment is having stayed subscribed for about 11 months, earning enough ISK in game to afford +4 implants in the first month or so, and having diligently stacked the skill queue during all that time?
Songs will be sung about your heroic deeds. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2626
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 02:16:02 -
[1313] - Quote
New players can sell plex and purchase. Or rat/trade/steal and purchase. What's the problem?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 02:27:35 -
[1314] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:... it would skyrocket the people with money to blow on video games past the new players who start at the same time who dont pay extra for the sp boost. The horror. I'm sure CCP is having emergency meetings right now how this explosive influx of paying customers can be averted.
Zee Zaugg wrote:there are more than enough players capable of clearing the market of skill injectors, especially because of the bottleneck that will happen as people try to get their farms to keep up with demand If the gerontocracy of EVE actually intends to blow their ISK on sucking every drop of SP out of the market, then I will not be crying. I will start farming. And if they continue doing this, then I will re-invest every ISK I make to grow the farm bigger and bigger. And in a year I will have all their ISK, plus a massive SP farm. Then I will just boost myself with all that SP my farm is generating. And I will name the Titan I will be flying for funzies the "P.T. Barnum". |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 02:27:54 -
[1315] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Zee Zaugg]
Edit: And as already addressed, the nature of gaining SP already drives multiple account holding. And remaining subbed while inactive. And PLEX consumption via the Bazaar. And PLEX sales to afford Bazaar characters. As already addressed, the Bazaar comes with drawbacks. Past history, contacts, a corp list, a character birth date. And it doesnt let you customize your sp exactly how you want it. The "its the same as the bazaar" comment has been done to death and isnt even worth responding anymore, because it isnt. And for the record the bazaar was also a terrible idea but at least it wasnt done through the NEX. And even if inactive, if your subbing the account thats still time investment, whether you watch the sand fall through the hourglass or not. Sure, but that in no way detracts from the fact that it monetizes sp. Those restriction, don't and can't change that. Also it does allow choice of what sp to buy. You don't get a random allocation, so the consequence of not chosing is overstated.
Watching sand is the point, when it comes to maintaining a sub while inactive. The examples were monetization of sp. And they were all accurate.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
725
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 02:28:08 -
[1316] - Quote
Zappity wrote:New players can sell plex and purchase. Or rat/trade/steal and purchase. What's the problem?
Exactly, no any problem here, clear p2w. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 02:52:30 -
[1317] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zee Zaugg wrote:
Edit: And as already addressed, the nature of gaining SP already drives multiple account holding. And remaining subbed while inactive. And PLEX consumption via the Bazaar. And PLEX sales to afford Bazaar characters.
As already addressed, the Bazaar comes with drawbacks. Past history, contacts, a corp list, a character birth date. And it doesnt let you customize your sp exactly how you want it. The "its the same as the bazaar" comment has been done to death and isnt even worth responding anymore, because it isnt. And for the record the bazaar was also a terrible idea but at least it wasnt done through the NEX. And even if inactive, if your subbing the account thats still time investment, whether you watch the sand fall through the hourglass or not. There *should* be drawbacks. Taking them away is the problem. No drawbacks = no consequences. No consequences = No strategy involved. No strategy involved = This is no longer a "game", and probably no longer engaging. You'll soon get bored. [quote=Tyberius Franklin] And some WILL come from people shedding skills, because it's quick effortless isk, but that's not sustainable. It's entirely dependent long term on the idea of farming for sale. It also becomes near entirely pointless for trades within an account. A few players who feel the messed up on their skills end up using it once, and beyond that the best you can hope for is a few players chasing the FOTM every few months. Also, what reason is there to bar week old characters from any part of this (leaving aside for the moment that they are excluded from extracting SP unless they injected to 5.5m before that point)? Edit: And as already addressed, the nature of gaining SP already drives multiple account holding. And remaining subbed while inactive. And PLEX consumption via the Bazaar. And PLEX sales to afford Bazaar characters.
Character stripping will probably drive it for the first few months, just because so many players are going to have dusty alts in their closet that have been sitting there unused for a while, or alts with skills that turned out to be useless.
Also the product will be new and exciting to lots of people at first, so the ISK price will probably be very high.
After all the recycling is over, then probably farms will be the dominant source of SP. But it might not turn out to be very profitable to farm for SP and sell it. The reason being that the product you are selling is so uniform and interchangeable that there will be quite a lot of competition bringing down the price.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
203
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 02:55:15 -
[1318] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Rise you can do this thing if you want
all I ask in return is that you tone down the blatant insincerity |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:02:58 -
[1319] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Character stripping will probably drive it for the first few months, just because so many players are going to have dusty alts in their closet that have been sitting there unused for a while, or alts with skills that turned out to be useless.
Also the product will be new and exciting to lots of people at first, so the ISK price will probably be very high.
After all the recycling is over, then probably farms will be the dominant source of SP. But it might not turn out to be very profitable to farm for SP and sell it. The reason being that the product you are selling is so uniform and interchangeable that there will be quite a lot of competition bringing down the price. It all really depends on how many decide to farm SP and how many want it, both factors that should change over time. Since I don't see this as a new player driver I'd expect that long term prices will slowly slide to low profit, but in the short to mid term SP trade could be somewhat expensive and gainful.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2626
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:03:36 -
[1320] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:New players can sell plex and purchase. Or rat/trade/steal and purchase. What's the problem? Exactly, no any problem here, clear p2w. No more so than the character bazaar. Given the presence of the character bazaar this is a great addition to the game. I am glad it has come through the process relatively unscathed (apart from making it more accessible to mid-SP characters which is great).
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
164
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:18:35 -
[1321] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference. both of us are examples of new players =) +1
What neither one of you rocket scientists realize is that we all started off as new players some time in the past, I stuck with the game since 2003 with no purchased skills so it can be done.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
727
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:19:52 -
[1322] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:New players can sell plex and purchase. Or rat/trade/steal and purchase. What's the problem? Exactly, no any problem here, clear p2w. No more so than the character bazaar. Given the presence of the character bazaar this is a great addition to the game. I am glad it has come through the process relatively unscathed (apart from making it more accessible to mid-SP characters which is great).
SP would be sold in limited form like 0.5m SP vs. already trained character where you have to deal with 'good" & "bad" skills, so buying pure SP's you have much more advantages vs. looking and searching for properly trained toon. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2627
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:24:57 -
[1323] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:New players can sell plex and purchase. Or rat/trade/steal and purchase. What's the problem? Exactly, no any problem here, clear p2w. No more so than the character bazaar. Given the presence of the character bazaar this is a great addition to the game. I am glad it has come through the process relatively unscathed (apart from making it more accessible to mid-SP characters which is great). 0.5m of SP cost much less than well trained character. so buying pure SP's you have much more advantages vs. looking and searching for properly trained toon. So what? It depends on the price of extractors. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see CCP price them ridiculously high.
Poorly trained characters might be stripped and discarded depending on price. But it will make good quality, high SP characters more valuable. This is good.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:35:33 -
[1324] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:https://twitter.com/JadekMenaheim/status/689402088711847937
CCPlease do.
I very much like that idea.!
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
728
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 03:51:27 -
[1325] - Quote
Zappity wrote: So what? It depends on the price of extractors. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see CCP price them ridiculously high.
this is the question, making this feature ridiculously high right from the start, the feature that most of responders considered as newbie friendly won't make it much attractive. e.g. basic Orca pilot is about 3.0m SP and with price tag about 2.5-3.0b. How much should 3.0M of SP cost to make them more attractive than ready to go pilot, especially for newcomers. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3201
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:03:37 -
[1326] - Quote
Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc
This is not a signature.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2627
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:12:04 -
[1327] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc They have done nothing but fix bugs since Incarna. Only recently have they started introducing new content again. Seriously, review the patch notes for the last few years and count how many times you read the word 'fixed'.
It is time for new things.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
382
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:24:58 -
[1328] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:VR is unlikely to be anything but a brief bubble on the market, for all the reasons Extra Credit (YouTube video) mentions. CCP would be really foolish to bet their company on that.And Paradox is the software company I've spent most of my gaming hours on... I'm really looking forward to their SF offering Stellaris. Well, the fact is that CCP has got 30 million $ of investor money to develop VR games. Also VR is something very close to Hilmar's heart. Like Tristan Agion i also believe VR will be a flop. World of Darkness= Fail (Say no more) EvE Online= Success (so far) EvE is unique, it has outlasted nearly all MMO's that were available in 2003 and some of the most popular since. New eden could last another 12 years, but i doubt it very much with upcoming patch. Sry for the dribble, i just love this ******* game
It's understandable that you're trying to be optimistic because you really enjoy Eve. But fact is the only time major MMO game companies resort to pay2win is when they believe their MMO game to be reaching the end of it's life cycle. And with this upcoming patch, the hourglass of Eve will officially began to fall.
Within the next 12 to 18 months, Eve would be no more. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
382
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:27:33 -
[1329] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc Doesn't appear they no longer have the confidence to do that anymore so they're opting for the easy way out.
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
266
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:32:35 -
[1330] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc
But that would mean admitting they've been blowing off Bug Reports, Customer Feedback, trashing their growing promised then neglected list, and doing something with the NPE other than having most turn off the annoyance of Opportunity options. Now it could happen. And I could win a billion in a PowerBall drawing buying 1 ticket. What are the odds at either of these possibilities?
It is, in the end, CCP's company flagship game (and the only one turning any decent profit!) here in New Eden. They can do whatever they want with it. And I can choose to vote on this Patented Bad Idea by not throwing my RL cash or ingame ISK at anything dealing with SPs for purchase. I will pay for subscriptions as I can afford them, to play. I will NOT pay to win. Then it's a rather cheap version of 'winning' to me. Ethics and sensibilities of mine kick in as I'd rather earn something in a game than outright buying it.
Guess that's the flavor of new player they are catering to. The Instant Gratification Flight Klub. Go for it CCP, after all everyone knows how long that type of game player has staying power when they don't get what they want NAOW. When will you start handing out Capitals as party favors to keep their 140 characters attention span?
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:32:44 -
[1331] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc Doesn't appear they no longer have the confidence to do that anymore so they're opting for the easy way out. Major changes to SOV Rework of cap ships Various new ships including an expansion on MJD mechanics Incoming new type of structure significantly different than current player deployables Various seasonal events Project discovery Visual improvements More fixes than I'm willing to put forth the effort to count
...Nope, CCP is apparently showing no confidence at all.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
382
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 04:55:24 -
[1332] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc Doesn't appear they no longer have the confidence to do that anymore so they're opting for the easy way out. Major changes to SOV Incoming rework of cap ships Various new ships including an expansion on MJD mechanics Incoming new type of structure significantly different than current player deployables Various seasonal events Project discovery Visual improvements More fixes than I'm willing to put forth the effort to count ...Nope, CCP is apparently showing no confidence at all. Admittingly with the Large Grid changes along with some of the mentions above, I too thought that CCP still had some creative juices left in their tanks to continue empowering Eve into the future. And then they take a HUGE step backwards by adding this cheap money grab scheme to the game that was well on it's way for a breakthrough..........sigh......
It's like seeing a fabulous castle getting built and when it was nearing it's completion the builders decided to replace some of the expensive materials with cheap materials thinking no one is gonna be able to tell the difference anyways. But the one thing the builders failed to realize is that the cheap materials have a weak foundation that will cause the entire castle to collapse within 18 months compared to lasting another 10-20 years if they continued using the finer materials. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 05:03:07 -
[1333] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Admittingly with the Large Grid changes along with some of the mentions above, I too thought that CCP still had some creative juices left in their tanks to continue empowering Eve into the future. And then they take a HUGE step backwards by adding this cheap money grab scheme to the game that was well on it's way for a breakthrough..........sigh......
It's like seeing a fabulous castle getting built and when it was nearing it's completion the builders decided to replace some of the expensive materials with cheap materials thinking no one is gonna be able to tell the difference anyways. But the one thing the builders failed to realize is that the cheap materials have a weak foundation that will cause the entire castle to collapse within 18 months compared to lasting another 10-20 years if they continued using the finer materials. Or perhaps their view of this feature is simply entirely opposed to yours. Who knows.
If I had to take bets on predictions though, I'd take the guesses of those with known game design experience, specifically on eve, and no apparent desire to design themselves out of a job over, well, someone I know nothing about save their eagerness to ascribe this to incompetence while yelling about how the end is near.
Add to that the issue that earlier you stated the game was going to ultimately fail due to your personal opinion of accomplishment and well... |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 05:22:26 -
[1334] - Quote
beakerax wrote:CCP Rise wrote:We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release. Rise you can do this thing if you want all I ask in return is that you tone down the blatant insincerity
Ya I read quite a few different blogs, sites, and reddits after this was first announced. I dont know what the hell you were reading CCP but thats not the impression I got at all. Unless you just have a terrible case of selective hearing |
Zee Zaugg
Quantum Star Conglomerate Syrup Fiends Republic
48
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 05:40:08 -
[1335] - Quote
This thread has become stupid. Theres like 5 pro injector people having constant repetitive arguments with 5 anti injector people, while everyone else realized that CCP doesnt give a **** and went home. CCP doesnt care about feedback anymore, they stopped caring about feedback when they ignored all the negative feedback the first time around, and just left this forum up for everyone to vent. Even discussing what the price will be is stupid, because CCP set the price they want it at a month ago and its not going to change based on any suggestions in this forum they arent reading.
I dont think this will kill the game, eve will be around in 18 months. People will use this new travesty of an idea, even people that argued it, and CCP knows this, so they dont care. Short of another Jita riot no players are going to impact any form of development here at all. Which is sad, because this is a game prided for individuality and listening to feedback. If ccp chooses to ignore that, then it wont break the game, I wont quit, Eve wont die, but it will make it significantly less special, which is already being done by altering the unique Skill system.
Really im just disappointed. In the players too blind, impatient or greedy to see why this is bad. But mostly disappointed with CCP, who are not only introducing a terrible change, which is bad but excusable, but also breaking promises, ignoring feedback, and not even bothering to put the majority of naysayers minds at ease, or even respond to the supporters really. The lack of communication during this whole ordeal tells me that CCP knows they shouldnt be doing this, but are going forward with it anyways. |
Zombeilord Zantra
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 05:43:12 -
[1336] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:This thread has become stupid. Theres like 5 pro injector people having constant repetitive arguments with 5 anti injector people, while everyone else realized that CCP doesnt give a **** and went home. CCP doesnt care about feedback anymore, they stopped caring about feedback when they ignored all the negative feedback the first time around, and just left this forum up for everyone to vent. Even discussing what the price will be is stupid, because CCP set the price they want it at a month ago and its not going to change based on any suggestions in this forum they arent reading.
I dont think this will kill the game, eve will be around in 18 months. People will use this new travesty of an idea, even people that argued it, and CCP knows this, so they dont care. Short of another Jita riot no players are going to impact any form of development here at all. Which is sad, because this is a game prided for individuality and listening to feedback. If ccp chooses to ignore that, then it wont break the game, I wont quit, Eve wont die, but it will make it significantly less special, which is already being done by altering the unique Skill system.
Really im just disappointed. In the players too blind, impatient or greedy to see why this is bad. But mostly disappointed with CCP, who are not only introducing a terrible change, which is bad but excusable, but also breaking promises, ignoring feedback, and not even bothering to put the majority of naysayers minds at ease, or even respond to the supporters really. The lack of communication during this whole ordeal tells me that CCP knows they shouldnt be doing this, but are going forward with it anyways.
Whats the price? |
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
266
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 06:04:58 -
[1337] - Quote
Here's an idea for CCP. Open a CC line with loan shark compounding monthly interest rates, but give a 5% discount to subscription payments, Plex purchases, and Aurum packages! Yeah, that'll spur a giant spike in new players to Eve! Might as well put in a command for the local chat window, slash/pizza, to get a % on delivery sales ordered thru the Official CCCP Pizza App.
Official CCCP CC, what's in your wallet
Might as well get silly, it's not like they're actually paying any attention to this thread. Or any thread that's not blinged out in support of whichever idea they're floating at their customers. Their interaction with their paying customers comes to a screeching halt of echoing silence in forum threads as soon as the praise for the newest Shiny isn't what they get. I know my view is they hit the ignore/all on this and other feedback threads somewhere around page 2 of any sign of criticisms, constructive or other.
It is their toy to play with, to bend, fold, mangle, burn, and milk for every red cent they can get out of it. They are a business and profits are the language they speak. From a game company with a reputation of treating it's customers better than the last year has shown..... How a reputation can be cheerfully tossed boggles my mind, but to each their own.
Short term gains minus long term viability.
Mebbe someone with a business degree can 'splain how that makes financial sense, 'cuz I guess I'm just not smrt enuf to get it.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
382
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 07:07:18 -
[1338] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Admittingly with the Large Grid changes along with some of the mentions above, I too thought that CCP still had some creative juices left in their tanks to continue empowering Eve into the future. And then they take a HUGE step backwards by adding this cheap money grab scheme to the game that was well on it's way for a breakthrough..........sigh......
It's like seeing a fabulous castle getting built and when it was nearing it's completion the builders decided to replace some of the expensive materials with cheap materials thinking no one is gonna be able to tell the difference anyways. But the one thing the builders failed to realize is that the cheap materials have a weak foundation that will cause the entire castle to collapse within 18 months compared to lasting another 10-20 years if they continued using the finer materials. Or perhaps their view of this feature is simply entirely opposed to yours. Who knows. If I had to take bets on predictions though, I'd take the guesses of those with known game design experience, specifically on eve, and no apparent desire to design themselves out of a job over, well, someone I know nothing about save their eagerness to ascribe this to incompetence while yelling about how the end is near. Add to that the issue that earlier you stated the game was going to ultimately fail due to your personal opinion of accomplishment and well... I get it that you're in favor with the rest of the scrubs who fancy the idea of pay2win coming to Eve and want to stay behind your masters at CCP regardless of whether or not of what they're doing to Eve is good for the game or not, but whatever. Going down with a sinking ship is all scrubs are good for so CCP should be happy that players like you are still in the game. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3205
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 07:28:55 -
[1339] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc They have done nothing but fix bugs since Incarna. Only recently have they started introducing new content again. Seriously, review the patch notes for the last few years and count how many times you read the word 'fixed'. It is time for new things.
Yeah, and cash for skills should not be one of them,
This is not a signature.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
383
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 07:29:34 -
[1340] - Quote
Zee Zaugg wrote:This thread has become stupid. Theres like 5 pro injector people having constant repetitive arguments with 5 anti injector people, while everyone else realized that CCP doesnt give a **** and went home. CCP doesnt care about feedback anymore, they stopped caring about feedback when they ignored all the negative feedback the first time around, and just left this forum up for everyone to vent. Even discussing what the price will be is stupid, because CCP set the price they want it at a month ago and its not going to change based on any suggestions in this forum they arent reading.
I dont think this will kill the game, eve will be around in 18 months. People will use this new travesty of an idea, even people that argued it, and CCP knows this, so they dont care. Short of another Jita riot no players are going to impact any form of development here at all. Which is sad, because this is a game prided for individuality and listening to feedback. If ccp chooses to ignore that, then it wont break the game, I wont quit, Eve wont die, but it will make it significantly less special, which is already being done by altering the unique Skill system.
Really im just disappointed. In the players too blind, impatient or greedy to see why this is bad. But mostly disappointed with CCP, who are not only introducing a terrible change, which is bad but excusable, but also breaking promises, ignoring feedback, and not even bothering to put the majority of naysayers minds at ease, or even respond to the supporters really. The lack of communication during this whole ordeal tells me that CCP knows they shouldnt be doing this, but are going forward with it anyways.
Exactly. If CCP came straight out and told the truth saying:
"Eve is in trouble financially and needs extra cash influx to stay alive so we apologize for breaking a golden rule we prided ourselves in upholding till now, but we're in financial trouble and have no other choice but to add a feature we never intended on implementing". (or something along those lines)
Then I would've began suggesting ideas to help them achieve those goals without damaging the game's core. But instead they ignore player feedback like we're mindless supporters and will eventually conform to the master's wishes because we have no other choice but to follow the masters (CCP) ways. It's a flatout display of lack of respect for the loyal customer base to do something like disregarding all player feedback. I'm still waiting for more details on how this feature is unfolding, but not a word from CCP. Lack of communication is what's causing my anger and distrust from all this silence. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 08:06:37 -
[1341] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I get it that you're in favor with the rest of the scrubs who fancy the idea of pay2win coming to Eve and want to stay behind your masters at CCP regardless of whether or not of what they're doing to Eve is good for the game or not, but whatever. Going down with a sinking ship is all scrubs are good for so CCP should be happy that players like you are still in the game. Except this does have the potential to be good, but it's clear you're determined to not see that.
Not sure if those words are intended to sting, but from someone who's demonstrated selective memory about having "courage" to change the game and a complete failure to actually explain how this will cause anything to fail save inserting your sense of accomplishment over putting skills in a queue I'm still making the judgement call that you're a less than sound source of reasonable opinions. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 08:09:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Zappity wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc They have done nothing but fix bugs since Incarna. Only recently have they started introducing new content again. Seriously, review the patch notes for the last few years and count how many times you read the word 'fixed'. It is time for new things. Yeah, and cash for skills should not be one of them, This isn't cash for skills. We already have that in the form of a sub. It's isk for someone else' skills. Not this proposals fault no one decided to question the wisdom of cash for isk all those years ago while claiming to bemoan P2W in any form.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
728
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 08:15:06 -
[1343] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
Exactly. If CCP came straight out and told the truth saying:
"Eve is in trouble financially and needs extra cash influx to stay alive so we apologize for breaking a golden rule we prided ourselves in upholding till now, but we're in financial trouble and have no other choice but to add a feature we never intended on implementing". (or something along those lines)
Then I would've began suggesting ideas to help them achieve those goals without damaging the game's core. But instead they ignore player feedback like we're mindless supporters and will eventually conform to the master's wishes because we have no other choice but to follow the masters (CCP) ways. It's a flatout display of lack of respect for the loyal customer base to do something like disregarding all player feedback. I'm still waiting for more details on how this feature is unfolding, but not a word from CCP. Lack of communication is what's causing my anger and distrust from all this silence.
Should we start Kickstarter thread to give a hand to CCP and support their annual budgeting? Or we could donate them PLEXs like PLEX for Good programm? |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2631
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 08:24:34 -
[1344] - Quote
Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
383
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 08:46:50 -
[1345] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I get it that you're in favor with the rest of the scrubs who fancy the idea of pay2win coming to Eve and want to stay behind your masters at CCP regardless of whether or not of what they're doing to Eve is good for the game or not, but whatever. Going down with a sinking ship is all scrubs are good for so CCP should be happy that players like you are still in the game. Except this does have the potential to be good, but it's clear you're determined to not see that. Not sure if those words are intended to sting, but from someone who's demonstrated selective memory about having "courage" to change the game and a complete failure to actually explain how this will cause anything to fail save inserting your sense of accomplishment over putting skills in a queue I'm still making the judgement call that you're a less than sound source of reasonable opinions. I have my doubts that this is a a good idea for several reasons: 1) CCP is not being honest with the players about their true agenda 2) CCP is betraying the trust of loyal players who spent years refining their characters by implementing a feature they said they would never do that completely devalues our time of dedication to this game. 3) CCP is not communicating with the community and is ignoring player feedback 4) CCP should be gathering data and taking their time getting the details right with this delicate feature that has been the heart & soul of Eve for over 10 years (if they really need the cash influx) intead of rushing it into the game to suck the cash out of the willing scrubbies pockets ASAP.
If you cannot comprehend why this is a major cause of many concerns it is because: 1)You never went through char develop yourself and bought all if not most of your chars from Eve Bazaar (Eve scrub extraordinaire). 2) You specialize in Char Trades from Eve Bazaar and have stockpiles of chars and see the potential value of SP skyrocketing (personal interest). 3) All you care about is PVP and see the opportunity for hunting clueless fresh meat noobies in T2 ships in abundance (personal interest again).
These are just some I can think up atm, but I'm sure there are tons more. The bottom line is this feature only benefits CCP wallets and players (who're in agreement) personal interest. Aside from personal greed and agendas, the community is still waiting to see how this feature will actually help the game.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1875
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 09:19:40 -
[1346] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I have my doubts that this is a a good idea for several reasons: 1) CCP is not being honest with the players about their true agenda 2) CCP is betraying the trust of loyal players who spent years refining their characters by implementing a feature they said they would never do that completely devalues our time of dedication to this game. 3) CCP is not communicating with the community and is ignoring player feedback 4) CCP should be gathering data and taking their time getting the details right with this delicate feature that has been the heart & soul of Eve for over 10 years (if they really need the cash influx) intead of rushing it into the game to suck the cash out of the willing scrubbies pockets ASAP.
If you cannot comprehend why this is a major cause of many concerns it is because: 1)You never went through char develop yourself and bought all if not most of your chars from Eve Bazaar (Eve scrub extraordinaire). 2) You specialize in Char Trades from Eve Bazaar and have stockpiles of chars and see the potential value of SP skyrocketing (personal interest). 3) All you care about is PVP and see the opportunity for hunting clueless fresh meat noobies in T2 ships in abundance (personal interest again).
These are just some I can think up atm, but I'm sure there are tons more. The bottom line is this feature only benefits CCP wallets and players (who're in agreement) personal interest. Aside from personal greed and agendas, the community is still waiting to see how this feature will actually help the game. 1) CCP puts their spin on an idea they had, news at 11. No really, this is very much the same pace as any unpopular decision. Some good in the end, many made good after tweaking, others... eh. Welcome to Eve, where we're used to this ride. 2) See, I seriously don't get this. CCP never said SP would never be tradable to my knowledge. If they did please point me to it. The possibilities from combining PLEX and skill injectors are real, but it's a convenient argument to state one of the most prevalent forms of consequence, the need to replace lost assets, can be trivialized while at the same time claiming CCP hasn't "betrayed" this concept prior to now (Think for a moment about the importance of isk for Eve's function and how PLEX already affects it. For the promise to exclude SP while including isk it means the entire in game market and economy, as well as every item in it, was somehow less of a game play factor than SP). 3) The are communicating, just not the communications you want, which is limited to a retraction of the proposal. There isn't really anything productive to say to accusations of malice and incompetence or general insults. 4) As someone who doesn't have the details they have regarding what's going on in the game, how do you know they're not? You don't, you make the assumption from I'm not sure what anymore. It ranges from CCP being poor to CCP not knowing what their doing to CCP maliciously breaking promises they never really made
As stated before, it's not a lack of comprehension, it's pointing out reasoning based on conveniently forgetting or downplaying Eve's P2skip elements when convenient. And further telling players who have trained since before your character existed that they should be clutching their SP as if it were the sum of their game experience when it's not.
I'm not in any of the situations you mention, I don't need to be because I can think past my own benefit, and further see this doesn't act against anyone save those who only see value in their characters when other have to do the same thing they did. My characters do have value in what they have trained, but that isn't changing. What they don't have value in is how others chose to train of the option is presented.
But if we're making suggestions of self interest, what is it that you're doing in game that you need to keep potential competition out of? What capacity is it that you "earned" that feels so threatened by "week old players in marauders" I think you stated? Why do you need them to not have access to that or any other toolset?
This doesn't benefit me at all, but you're methods of protest make you seem rather invested somehow. Do share. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
728
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 09:33:23 -
[1347] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future. Sure, but but i thought we are not going to interface thos TiDi cool down... Sigh... |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
204
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 09:34:21 -
[1348] - Quote
Since this is going through, might as well look on the positive side: tradable SP creates a wonderful opportunity for CCP to nerf link alts into the ground.
:optimism: |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2632
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 09:36:57 -
[1349] - Quote
I'm not at all invested. Yet. But I will be. I'll make a killing as usual. Looking forward to it!
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2632
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 09:39:33 -
[1350] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future. Sure, but but i thought we are not going to interface thos TiDi cool down... Sigh... Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. I am disadvantaged by having English as my first language.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
|
MajorBean
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
62
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 10:08:34 -
[1351] - Quote
- The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1983
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 10:19:17 -
[1352] - Quote
MajorBean wrote:- The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis.
I'm guessing that whoever developed this idea thinks it doesn't break this promise since when you buy SP you are buying someone elses invested time (transferring advantage as opposed to buying new advantage???).
If so they should consider a career in politics... |
Rebel Gunn
Society for EVE Preservation
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 11:20:29 -
[1353] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:
Exactly. If CCP came straight out and told the truth saying:
"Eve is in trouble financially and needs extra cash influx to stay alive so we apologize for breaking a golden rule we prided ourselves in upholding till now, but we're in financial trouble and have no other choice but to add a feature we never intended on implementing". (or something along those lines)
Then I would've began suggesting ideas to help them achieve those goals without damaging the game's core. But instead they ignore player feedback like we're mindless supporters and will eventually conform to the master's wishes because we have no other choice but to follow the masters (CCP) ways. It's a flatout display of lack of respect for the loyal customer base to do something like disregarding all player feedback. I'm still waiting for more details on how this feature is unfolding, but not a word from CCP. Lack of communication is what's causing my anger and distrust from all this silence.
Should we start Kickstarter thread to give a hand to CCP and support their annual budgeting? Or we could donate them PLEXs like PLEX for Good programm?
What they really need is advice on how to run a business and serve customers properly. I give them credit for having created this one good game, but they've otherwise squandered most of the goodwill you can generate from this.
It very much feels like they stumbled onto success, did enough things right from time to time to make up for missteps, and then began to lose their way by taking customers for granted. However, I'm not sure that the owner(s) / top management ever really understood what they had created, it was more the rank-and-file that probably kept things alive. Now top management is going the pay-to-win route to try to bleed us all dry, thinking we'll all just happily go along with it. So out-of-touch and disdainful they are.
CCP is about to receive a very brutal lesson in market forces. Losing long loyal customers in favor of new customers that are extremely fickle, have short attention spans, and demand instant gratification has rarely been a road to long-term business success. |
Funky Death
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 11:55:16 -
[1354] - Quote
I can see this is not pay to win. Theres no magic creation of sp happening. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 12:09:37 -
[1355] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: 1) CCP puts their spin on an idea they had, news at 11. No really, this is very much the same pace as any unpopular decision. Some good in the end, many made good after tweaking, others... eh. Welcome to Eve, where we're used to this ride. 2) See, I seriously don't get this. CCP never said SP would never be tradable to my knowledge. If they did please point me to it. The possibilities from combining PLEX and skill injectors are real, but it's a convenient argument to state one of the most prevalent forms of consequence, the need to replace lost assets, can be trivialized while at the same time claiming CCP hasn't "betrayed" this concept prior to now (Think for a moment about the importance of isk for Eve's function and how PLEX already affects it. For the promise to exclude SP while including isk it means the entire in game market and economy, as well as every item in it, was somehow less of a game play factor than SP). 3) The are communicating, just not the communications you want, which is limited to a retraction of the proposal. There isn't really anything productive to say to accusations of malice and incompetence or general insults. 4) As someone who doesn't have the details they have regarding what's going on in the game, how do you know they're not? You don't, you make the assumption from I'm not sure what anymore. It ranges from CCP being poor to CCP not knowing what their doing to CCP maliciously breaking promises they never really made
As stated before, it's not a lack of comprehension, it's pointing out reasoning based on conveniently forgetting or downplaying Eve's P2skip elements when convenient. And further telling players who have trained since before your character existed that they should be clutching their SP as if it were the sum of their game experience when it's not.
I'm not in any of the situations you mention, I don't need to be because I can think past my own benefit, and further see this doesn't act against anyone save those who only see value in their characters when other have to do the same thing they did. My characters do have value in what they have trained (a decision making process fully preserved by the way), but that isn't changing. What they don't have value in is how others chose to train if the option is presented.
It's not like we're in a race as is, not with current mechanics in place.
But if we're making suggestions of self interest, what is it that you're doing in game that you need to keep potential competition out of? What capacity is it that you "earned" that feels so threatened by "week old players in marauders" I think you stated? Why do you need them to not have access to that or any other toolset?
This doesn't benefit me at all, but you're methods of protest make you seem rather invested somehow. Do share.
I took me 14 months to train my Alts to fly Paladins. And now some scrub can get into one within 1-4 weeks?? Don't know about you but that makes me feel cheated.
Training skills will become meaningless since all you have to do know is buy an injector for skilling. Meaning the feeling of progression and evolution will be gone from Eve forever. Don't know about you but for role-playering type players that is a very addictive feature that keeps us in the game.
Suicide gankers can now easily train up to fly Catalysts within 7-14 days, making Hi-sec a gankers paradise. I live in hi-sec atm flying Marauders and don't want to see them getting exploded by nooblets who just got into the game one week ago. This means that Corps like Code are gonna be more powerful than ever. Not to mention concorde won't prevent them from forming in mass in any given system. Hi-sec is gonna become Gank-Sec with the implementation of this SP trading garbage. |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 12:14:27 -
[1356] - Quote
the only real issue with this is that it will devalue characters being sold in the bazaar other then that it is not much different then the ability to buy pre-trained characters. other then the fact that you get to pick the name yourself and since the limits on how much sp you get out of it at higher sp levels its basiclly only useful to remove and sell sp for those in the 50+ mill range and those of us over 100 mill it wont be worth buying sp to add at all lol
most of the whining is prolly alts of people who farm characters or do buy/sell flipping raging that their income is gonna drop or they dont understand this is a weaker variations of the character bazaar we already have. then again most people have a hard time with common sense. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
732
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 12:41:05 -
[1357] - Quote
If Character Bazar is also p2w as many pointed that out why would we need another one with similar purpose? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1985
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 12:41:08 -
[1358] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:... as mentioned above all of that is already possible droping some isk on a character from the bazaar only difference is this new system will cost a crap ton more (player controlled market and all) and reduce in efficiency rapidly the higher the sp goes. also gankers are not gonna use this to train their gank alts up faster unless they really have to much money or isk and hate waiting. since they can just use throw away trial act's over and over and not even have to bother subbing them (sure its against the rules but ccp never catches them so they do it anyway)
training will still be far more valuable since this system wont create sp from thin air some one still has to train it first. and the cost of the skill injectors will prolly be so insanely high that it would be cheaper to buy a char instead so over all this has no real impact on the game outside of the character bazaar and redistributing isk within the economy.
The issues I have with the idea (beyond simply removing any character building element from the game or at the very least heavily degrading it) is that it will not help new players as claimed but will almost certainly funnel most of the SP generated up to the space rich who already play the game.
This allows for the already accrued SP in existing characters to be drained away into the hands of those with the most ISK. Whether they just inject them (just to be the first to max SP) or it is a larger nullsec group simply controlling the market whilst ensuring all alts have perfect skills for their niche ensuring that other groups are at a bigger disadvantage.
As far as large ISK rich nullsec groups go they would be stupid not to do this, they would control the market whilst gaining a bigger advantage. Note that I don't have a problem with these groups doing this if they are playing within the rules (again, they would be stupid not to), but rather with a mechanic being introduced that allows them to do so.
This will not in my opinion help new players at all. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3212
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 12:58:17 -
[1359] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Zappity wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc They have done nothing but fix bugs since Incarna. Only recently have they started introducing new content again. Seriously, review the patch notes for the last few years and count how many times you read the word 'fixed'. It is time for new things. Yeah, and cash for skills should not be one of them, This isn't cash for skills. We already have that in the form of a sub. It's isk for someone else' skills. Not this proposals fault no one decided to question the wisdom of cash for isk all those years ago while claiming to bemoan P2W in any form. I honestly wonder, because PLEX was here before I was, did no one realize back then that anything CCP decided to allow in game trade of would be parroted as "cash for 'x'" as a result of PLEX, or was it just genuinely thought back then that isk wasn't any sort of advantage despite being the primary medium of trade?
Some of us did, and challenged both the introduction of both PLEX and the Character Bazaar.
Of them all, I am more forgiving of PLEX as it allows folk, some of whom, for whatever reason, would not be able to afford to play otherwise.
This is not a signature.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
397
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 13:37:13 -
[1360] - Quote
Shova'k wrote: as mentioned above all of that is already possible droping some isk on a character from the bazaar only difference is this new system will cost a crap ton more (player controlled market and all) and reduce in efficiency rapidly the higher the sp goes. also gankers are not gonna use this to train their gank alts up faster unless they really have to much money or isk and hate waiting. since they can just use throw away trial act's over and over and not even have to bother subbing them (sure its against the rules but ccp never catches them so they do it anyway)
training will still be far more valuable since this system wont create sp from thin air some one still has to train it first. and the cost of the skill injectors will prolly be so insanely high that it would be cheaper to buy a char instead so over all this has no real impact on the game outside of the character bazaar and redistributing isk within the economy.
Maybe at first but sooner or later the SP extractors & Injectors are gonna drop down to where the masses can afford them and Eve will become Skill Injecting Scrubs Online. The people who trade chars on char bazaar regularly will personally see to this.
|
|
Memphis Baas
992
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 13:53:47 -
[1361] - Quote
It's really easy to keep the injectors out of the reach of "the masses": just put a high Aurum cost on them; nobody's gonna want to pay hundreds of dollars for a few measly points.
Titans are a lot more common than when they were first introduced, but they're still not a ship that "the masses" have.
In any case, nice to see such disdain for other players (feel free to use the term "unwashed masses", it's clear you're thinking it). You sure are elite, a rarity, worthy of a Nobel prize or something, for managing to be better than others at clicking buttons in a MMO game. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
399
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 14:47:28 -
[1362] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:It's really easy to keep the injectors out of the reach of "the masses": just put a high Aurum cost on them; nobody's gonna want to pay hundreds of dollars for a few measly points.
Titans are a lot more common than when they were first introduced, but they're still not a ship that "the masses" have.
In any case, nice to see such disdain for other players (feel free to use the term "unwashed masses", it's clear you're thinking it). You sure are elite, a rarity, worthy of a Nobel prize or something, for managing to be better than others at clicking buttons in a MMO game. I'm not putting myself on pedestal. I had to wait a long time to get where I'm at in this game and now CCP is handing out freebies?? And now every scrub is coming out from the woodwork crying "CCP helps us, we need them SP injectors now waaahhh".
And I doubt CCP is gonna put a steep price on these extractors/injectors because they want them sold in masses to make them a good buck or why else would they even bother to go this far?
And the term "masses" I was referring to are the instant gratifying scrubs looking for the easy way out.
|
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
284
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 15:53:34 -
[1363] - Quote
The initial idea was too generous to veteran players.
Now that you've TRIPLED the efficiency for veteran players, this idea has morphed to pants-on-headWTFBBQ. A bunch of rich bitter vets will buy up all the things & this will be pure pay-to-win (which is unacceptable to a ton of people) instead of pay-to-catch-up-a-bit (which is acceptable to almost everybody now that EVE is almost 13 years old.)
Go back to 50k for 80M and this idea isn't terrible. Better yet, cap it completely at 80M or 100M.
Remember Mahanus' rule. If you ignore AkJon, you end up saying 'Ow, mah Anus!' |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 16:13:59 -
[1364] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future.
I keep seeing this as well, that CCP is in financial trouble --- where does it come from???
I think the best indicator that CCP has a healthy bottom line is the fact that an investment company has enough confidence in them to drop a huge chunk of change - $30 million - for R&D of VR systems.
Surely this means less money diverted from the core business of 'EVE Online' thus more available for improvements to the game and infrastructure upgrades - who knows - in the future maybe we will see improvements like dedicated development teams to improve core code and even infrastructure upgrades like new servers... Oh they did that already.... well never mind maybe they will introduce new items and improved game play
|
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3757
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 16:32:11 -
[1365] - Quote
Pakokkie wrote:Yes, come trough with the sp trading.
This will happen:
New brothers with zero experience buy a lot of skillpoints, then they buy a big ship, throw some uber modules on it and poof, they pop!
Let the funtimes begin!
Then he will come here or cry on the comms and everyone will have a lot of fun.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
|
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 16:33:35 -
[1366] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future. I keep seeing this as well, that CCP is in financial trouble --- where does it come from??? I think the best indicator that CCP has a healthy bottom line is the fact that an investment company has enough confidence in them to drop a huge chunk of change - $30 million - for R&D of VR systems. Surely this means less money diverted from the core business of 'EVE Online' thus more available for improvements to the game and infrastructure upgrades - who knows - in the future maybe we will see improvements like dedicated development teams to improve core code and even infrastructure upgrades like new servers... Oh they did that already.... well never mind maybe they will introduce new items and improved game play I can't see CCP doing any improvements to this game with it's guts ripped out.
|
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3757
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 16:33:59 -
[1367] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote: I keep seeing this as well, that CCP is in financial trouble --- where does it come from???
They are talking from their bottoms, because there is no report, because CCP bought itself out with a lot of cash, and doesnt have to publish anything.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
|
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 16:34:45 -
[1368] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future. I keep seeing this as well, that CCP is in financial trouble --- where does it come from??? I think the best indicator that CCP has a healthy bottom line is the fact that an investment company has enough confidence in them to drop a huge chunk of change - $30 million - for R&D of VR systems. Surely this means less money diverted from the core business of 'EVE Online' thus more available for improvements to the game and infrastructure upgrades - who knows - in the future maybe we will see improvements like dedicated development teams to improve core code and even infrastructure upgrades like new servers... Oh they did that already.... well never mind maybe they will introduce new items and improved game play I can't see how CCP can make any improvements to a game with it's guts ripped out.
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Baron and Serpent Productions
273
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 17:15:06 -
[1369] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future.
It does speak of confidence... that VR is the place to bet their future. Monitors, towers, keyboards, mice, how nostalgia gaming those are. Why do I personally think there's some financial difficulty going on in their accounting department? The sheer number of Plex and Aurum discount sales that wrapped up the last quarter of 2015. The only time any business has that many firesales is there's a hurting for liquid assets and it needs to be fed in a hurry. As CCP is a privately held company, therefore no stockholders' info packets sent out for perusal, us unwashed mass scrubs won't know how bad this hole is until the New Eden segment of TQ is shut down to customer access.
Eggs all in one basket. That basket needs a headset that is currently priced at $600 USD.
This from a game company that not too many months ago was nearly begging people to not leave, to come back, and that they'd learned their lesson on ignoring customer feedback and would keep the lines of communication open to a better extent than 2015 went. Wow, talk about tossing their own employees under the bus! How bad did that video of apology bruise someone's pride, and to go right back to the SSDD policies that lead to it being made in the first place.
Does CCP suffer from short term memory loss?
"We promise not to do that again. Oops, we did it again so... eat silence and HTFU you plebs."
Does CCP suffer from short term memory loss??? (or do they hope all of us have that problem? hmmm.)
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 18:24:45 -
[1370] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Zappity wrote:Why do all these negative posters think that CCP is in financial trouble? They have just spent a considerable sum fully upgrading their servers. It speaks to confidence in the future. It does speak of confidence... that VR is the place to bet their future. Monitors, towers, keyboards, mice, how nostalgia gaming those are. Why do I personally think there's some financial difficulty going on in their accounting department? The sheer number of Plex and Aurum discount sales that wrapped up the last quarter of 2015. The only time any business has that many firesales is there's a hurting for liquid assets and it needs to be fed in a hurry. As CCP is a privately held company, therefore no stockholders' info packets sent out for perusal, us unwashed mass scrubs won't know how bad this hole is until the New Eden segment of TQ is shut down to customer access. Eggs all in one basket. That basket needs a headset that is currently priced at $600 USD. This from a game company that not too many months ago was nearly begging people to not leave, to come back, and that they'd learned their lesson on ignoring customer feedback and would keep the lines of communication open to a better extent than 2015 went. Wow, talk about tossing their own employees under the bus! How bad did that video of apology bruise someone's pride, and to go right back to the SSDD policies that lead to it being made in the first place. Does CCP suffer from short term memory loss? "We promise not to do that again. Oops, we did it again so... eat silence and HTFU you plebs." Does CCP suffer from short term memory loss??? (or do they hope all of us have that problem? hmmm.) >Jeven
Samgsung headsets are $99
We can speculate as much as we like about CCP financials because they are now a privately held company but we do know how they got to be that way - In March 2014 CCP purchased back $20 million worth of equity bonds floated (with a 7% equity return) on the stock exchange, and they bought them back with 2 1/2 years left to run on the returns.....
|
|
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 19:09:20 -
[1371] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: If CCP came straight out and told the truth saying:
"Eve is in trouble financially and needs extra cash influx to stay alive so we apologize for breaking a golden rule we prided ourselves in upholding till now, but we're in financial trouble and have no other choice but to add a feature we never intended on implementing". (or something along those lines)
Then I would've began suggesting ideas to help them achieve those goals without damaging the game's core. But instead they ignore player feedback like we're mindless supporters and will eventually conform to the master's wishes because we have no other choice but to follow the masters (CCP) ways. It's a flatout display of lack of respect for the loyal customer base to do something like disregarding all player feedback. I'm still waiting for more details on how this feature is unfolding, but not a word from CCP. Lack of communication is what's causing my anger and distrust from all this silence.
I wholeheartedly agree.
If they need money, why not increase the subscription fee. I wouldn't be over the moon, but I wouldn't be thinking about quitting either. If noobs need more skill points, give them a few million as part of the tutorial (and make sure they don't waste it). But don't mess with the basics of EVE. What is next? Multiple servers cause they are cheaper to run? |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 19:12:17 -
[1372] - Quote
Julie Thorne wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: If CCP came straight out and told the truth saying:
"Eve is in trouble financially and needs extra cash influx to stay alive so we apologize for breaking a golden rule we prided ourselves in upholding till now, but we're in financial trouble and have no other choice but to add a feature we never intended on implementing". (or something along those lines)
Then I would've began suggesting ideas to help them achieve those goals without damaging the game's core. But instead they ignore player feedback like we're mindless supporters and will eventually conform to the master's wishes because we have no other choice but to follow the masters (CCP) ways. It's a flatout display of lack of respect for the loyal customer base to do something like disregarding all player feedback. I'm still waiting for more details on how this feature is unfolding, but not a word from CCP. Lack of communication is what's causing my anger and distrust from all this silence. I wholeheartedly agree. If they need money, why not increase the subscription fee. I wouldn't be over the moon, but I wouldn't be thinking about quitting either. If noobs need more skill points, give them a few million as part of the tutorial (and make sure they don't waste it). But don't mess with the basics of EVE. What is next? Multiple servers cause they are cheaper to run?
that would work fine with me. even suggested it myself ^^
or we could limit them to like 2 injectors per 6 months or something. though the mission one works more for new players
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:How many of you who think this is great for the newbros will be donating some of your skills to help a new guy out? Not asking them to reach for a credit card but just out of the goodness of your own heart or to aid a fellow member of the corp? This is why I suggested that CCP set up a donation bin where THEY can verify true newbie status and hand out injectors. Veterans donate (like for Plex4Good) and CCP gives to newbies. Otherwise, in-corp / in-alliance, probably after they pass the API check and if they show promise. or give skill injectors as a reward for finishing an Agent line mission your first time. so you finish the mining agent mission. you get 500k skill points. this would let you flesh out your mining skill a bit you finish the miltary agent mission. you get 500k skill points. this would let you flesh out some combat skills. and so on. no market change. limited to low SP chars. and the SP is given to them right after they learn the basics of a subject. which also incentives them to do tutorial-like stuff.
|
gargars
The Tebo Corp
167
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 19:26:35 -
[1373] - Quote
This whole thing makes me very sad. People can argue I am wrong but it seems to me this is blatantly a pay-to-win thing.
The 'rich' get instant skill points and the 'poor' do not. It's buying an in-game advantage.
Never thought I would see this happen. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 19:29:33 -
[1374] - Quote
gargars wrote:This whole thing makes me very sad. People can argue I am wrong but it seems to me this is blatantly a pay-to-win thing. The 'rich' get instant skill points and the 'poor' do not. It's buying an in-game advantage. Never thought I would see this happen. =/ character bazaar ( instant skills for rich. etc)
anyway. if u think its pay to win, any idea how to smooth it out?
examples are limiting how often u can use it, or lowering how much it gives vs how much you lose to make it.
or the idea of giving to new players for finishing tutorials.
or maybe something new. |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
120
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 19:45:48 -
[1375] - Quote
What is it going to take to make CCP stop being consumed by total greed and see that their subscription player base of players paying them on a monthly or even long term yearly basis for their services at an amount that has stayed higher than ANY OTHER MMO is the envy of the game developing world?
What makes CCP so overconfident to think they can double charge their customers with micro transactions that give an in game advantage on top of the subscriptions players already pay for any legitimate reason at all?
And all this after PROMISING to NEVER MAKE EVE PAY TO WIN!
TOTAL GREED. ZERO HONESTY.
I have zero tolerance for micro transaction pay to win games.
I have zero tolerance for game developers that lie to their customers.
I will not financially support any developer who indulges themselves with this largess self absorbed nickel and dime insulting behavior.
This is beyond insulting. This is PATHETIC!
I will also never purchase ANY CCP game ever if this pay to win micro transaction fiasco goes live.
Does CCP honestly think they can destroy their reputation for honest business practices and have Valkyrie be a success by pulling people from EVE into supporting it after screwing over every single paying EVE subscriber?
Has CCP lost their minds?
here is their statement from 2011...
Statement on behalf of CCP from Arnar Hrafn Gylfason, Senior Producer for EVE Online
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/?_ga=1.84544541.582313803.1452615655
Quote:It is CCPGÇÿs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis. |
gargars
The Tebo Corp
170
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:23:45 -
[1376] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:gargars wrote:This whole thing makes me very sad. People can argue I am wrong but it seems to me this is blatantly a pay-to-win thing. The 'rich' get instant skill points and the 'poor' do not. It's buying an in-game advantage. Never thought I would see this happen. =/ character bazaar ( instant skills for rich. etc) anyway. if u think its pay to win, any idea how to smooth it out? examples are limiting how often u can use it, or lowering how much it gives vs how much you lose to make it. or the idea of giving to new players for finishing tutorials. or maybe something new.
I always thought the Character Bazaar was wrong also.
My only idea on how to 'smooth it out' is for it NOT to be implemented and am still pretty shocked CCP even brought the subject up in the first place.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:33:25 -
[1377] - Quote
gargars wrote:Yaasmine wrote:gargars wrote:This whole thing makes me very sad. People can argue I am wrong but it seems to me this is blatantly a pay-to-win thing. The 'rich' get instant skill points and the 'poor' do not. It's buying an in-game advantage. Never thought I would see this happen. =/ character bazaar ( instant skills for rich. etc) anyway. if u think its pay to win, any idea how to smooth it out? examples are limiting how often u can use it, or lowering how much it gives vs how much you lose to make it. or the idea of giving to new players for finishing tutorials. or maybe something new. I always thought the Character Bazaar was wrong also. My only idea on how to 'smooth it out' is for it NOT to be implemented and am still pretty shocked CCP even brought the subject up in the first place. brought up due to the long wait time for new characters for basic ships.
so the idea of giving them SP for finishing tutorials works. or limiting it.
as for this P2W thing, i think people are vastly over stating it(as player driven economy). though if they reduce how much higher SP characters get from it, i dont think that would hurt.
so like 30mil SP or higher characters get 100k or 50k SP from them, despite them costing 500k SP to make. (could even make it so the more injectors you use, the less you get from them)
will some people buy them in mass to get maxed characters? they'll try. but cost wise...i guess thats a reason to petition for a limit to be added to them (like 2 per 6 months, or limit them to characters under a certain total SP)
over all, new players do need to get more SP easier (i know theres the cerebrel accelerator, but the problem with that is not everyone gets it when they start, and its not explained without searching for yourself. and if you miss the 3 week time period after creation, its to late. so you start off after those 3 weeks lower. making the grind longerr)
so yes i'll admit the idea of it right now isn't perfect(nothing ever is). but thats why this thread is here. make suggestions to fix it.
sayign remove it (or as some people are doing, saying CCP is deaf or trying to kill the game) isn't going to help and will only result in CCP ignoring.
personally i'm currently in favor of a limit of 2 injectors per 6 months, or injectors being a reward for finishing tutorial missions(non tradable)
but if they release it as is, i wont complain as i stand to gain more from it than higher SP characters. i don't think it will kill the game either. as the game has always focused on numbers and builds over who has more SP. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
140
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:34:53 -
[1378] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Here's a radical suggestion for CCP if they need more money.
Instead of cash for skills, they could try to attract new players and keep the ones they already have by fixing the bugs and improving the game with new content etc Doesn't appear they no longer have the confidence to do that anymore so they're opting for the easy way out. Major changes to SOV Incoming rework of cap ships Various new ships including an expansion on MJD mechanics Incoming new type of structure significantly different than current player deployables Various seasonal events Project discovery Visual improvements More fixes than I'm willing to put forth the effort to count ...Nope, CCP is apparently showing no confidence at all. Admittingly with the Large Grid changes along with some of the mentions above, I too thought that CCP still had some creative juices left in their tanks to continue empowering Eve into the future. And then they take a HUGE step backwards by adding this cheap money grab scheme to the game that was well on it's way for a breakthrough..........sigh...... It's like seeing a fabulous castle getting built and when it was nearing it's completion the builders decided to replace some of the expensive materials with cheap materials thinking no one is gonna be able to tell the difference anyways. But the one thing the builders failed to realize is that the cheap materials have a weak foundation that will cause the entire castle to collapse within 18 months compared to lasting another 10-20 years if they continued using the finer materials.
More like the surfs that had to trudge the bricks higher and higher as the tower rose in height, and long in the tooth, the more tired and senseless they saw the exchange and difference from themselves against those mighty dreams of the raging veterans. Angry they yell, They will now be like us with the tower half built without them! Those that are angry have failed to see this tower was not rising as fast, or as sturdy.
Those of you saying VR will bust, or that you refuse to try Valkyrie: That's to bad, because it's not like anything else I've ever played and there's a reason it was chosen as the Oculus launch title. You're going to miss out. And if you think eve is about delayed achievement in SP, if feel you have been missing out on the best of Eve this whole time..
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2634
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:36:03 -
[1379] - Quote
No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:51:29 -
[1380] - Quote
The character bazaar was I thought a very bad idea and at the time I thought it set a dangerous precedent.
This idea - much worse. Got spare cash laying about? Give it to us and we will let you cheat and do better than those who don't.
This feels anti-Eve to me and everyone I have talked to about it.
You'll get your cash I am sure tho CCP. At least in the short term.
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1994
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:58:07 -
[1381] - Quote
Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk.
ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:21:01 -
[1382] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash.
that's amazing deductive reasoning skills , but it still doesn't make it pay to win. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2634
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:22:45 -
[1383] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. SP is not created de novo so you cannot 'buy SP for cash'. You must purchase it from another player, exactly as per the character bazaar. This also adds a new SP sink which I think is a good thing.
And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:25:11 -
[1384] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. SP is not created de novo so you cannot 'buy SP for cash'. You must purchase it from another player, exactly as per the character bazaar. This also adds a new SP sink which I think is a good thing. And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX. in short. limited ammount of isk.
combined with a player controlled market that makes up the price of PLEX and the skill injector
combined with skill injectors requiring having characters to give up the SP.
so it will be interesting to see how this fluctuates (massively when it first comes out) and where it settles(guessing that, even if injector is cheap, player demand will make the price of the filled injector rather high)
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1878
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:30:01 -
[1385] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I took me 14 months to train my Alts to fly Paladins. And now some scrub can get into one within 1-4 weeks?? Don't know about you but that makes me feel cheated. So basically the mechanics can't change because if they do you feel cheated despite getting exactly what you should have gotten between game time and skills for a fraction of the effort or cost that the 1-4week player would have?
Make no mistake, massively inflating a characters SP will have a cost that you never had to pay to get the same.
Daniela Doran wrote:Training skills will become meaningless since all you have to do know is buy a skill injector for skilling. Meaning the feeling of progression and evolution will be gone from Eve forever. Don't know about you but for role-playing type players that is a very addictive feature that keeps us in the game. Training becomes meaningless due to an item which is wholly dependent on training to produce? What?
How are these theoretical 1 week paladin pilots not driving the value of skill training to higher levels than ever?
Daniela Doran wrote:Suicide gankers can now easily fully train up to fly Catalysts within 7-10 days, making Hi-sec a gankers paradise. I live in hi-sec atm flying Marauders and don't want to see them getting exploded by nooblets who just got into the game one week ago. This means that Corps like Code are gonna be more powerful than ever. Not to mention concorde won't prevent them from forming in mass in any given system. Hi-sec is gonna become Gank-Sec with the implementation of this SP trading garbage. Suicide gankers can already train up catalysts in that time. No change there. Infact, a catalyst ganker is probably one of the worst use of skill injectors due to the trivial train time.
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Some of us did, and challenged both the introduction of both PLEX and the Character Bazaar.
Of them all, I am more forgiving of PLEX as it allows folk, some of whom, for whatever reason, would not be able to afford to play otherwise. Yet PLEX is the whole of the reason the favorite line that is "cash for skills" is even a possibility, along with the "cash for ships, mods, skillbooks and everything else on the market" situation we have now. So we have the potential for a feature that allows entirely in game economic participation save the injector, but because of PLEX the whole thing gets characterized exclusively and inaccurately as a cash sale of SP.
And yet people still want to claim that only now is there some manner of conflict created by PLEX that causes a break in a promise CCP made. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:31:41 -
[1386] - Quote
Zappity wrote:
And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
Buy PLEX with cash Sell PLEX on market PLEX = ISK
Am amazed you did not know this while trying to appear expert on the matter. |
malaka katsika
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:33:49 -
[1387] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:Zappity wrote:
And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
Buy PLEX with cash Sell PLEX on market PLEX = ISK Am amazed you did not know this while trying to appear expert on the matter.
Is the isk magically generated into someones wallet when they transfer the plex to isk? |
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
123
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:36:58 -
[1388] - Quote
The one critical thing I had to learn as a new EVE player about two years ago was that there is no way to train skills faster
I as a new player looked for every alternative and found buying a character to be cheating. Sanctioned and legal cheating but cheating on a game play level and it would also be cheating myself of the full EVE experience and I decided very early in my EVE career that purchasing a character was not something that interested me. I wanted to get there on my own.
After very little time I had a ship or two and found I liked waiting for skills to complete as it felt like I was invested in the game at that point and was glad there was no shortcut for anyone to get skills faster than the day they themselves or somebody else started training their toon.
I saw ISK as worthless as it could be manipulated by people paying real cash for it so accumulating ISK was of no interest. I saw ships and modules as being equally worthless beyond purchasing what I needed at the moment as they too could be bought with plex turned into isk so I never saw any value in having lots of ships either.
What I valued was accumulating skills and making my character more powerful and increasing my personal skill as a player.
That philosophy has been what has kept me interested in EVE in spite of its already existing pay to win flaws that do indeed diminish or curtail completely the enjoy-ability of a lot of aspects of the game for me already.
Even now I have just a few ships and semi decent core skills trained and I have no problem waiting for my skills to train. I have always enjoyed knowing that I have to wait like everybody else did who put that skill in the skill que and it has made training even month long skills a worthwhile and pleasurable achievement and made the minuscule rewards from such time invested still satisfactory.
Now when I que up a 30 day train if this pay to win skill buying nonsense goes live I know that even though I as someone who refuses to ever buy skill points on general principle of total hatred of pay to win mechanics that although I must wait a month some one else who likes to pay to win will wait no time for that month long skill to train...
That breaks EVE for me personally and I have no interest in a game that compromises every aspect of its mechanics with pay to win devices and the fact that they promised to never do this and are now doing it making them liars just makes the whole thing the biggest most insulting turn off a game developer could ever do to a game they produce.
If I was a new player today and you told me in addition to the cash I just paid for my subscription if I want to be a sucker and give this greedy game developer a lot of cash I can have all the skills I want but so can anyone else with a lot of cash I would never subscribe in the first place to a totally compromised game with no anchors in the game to save it from being a total pay to win joke.
So go ahead CCP destroy the last illusion that your not a total sellout. My credit card will not miss paying you after you do.
I paid my account(s) for two years so far. I even bought skins until I realized the only thing they change is the color and on occasion bought plex to multi-skill que train alts and accepted that even though most of EVE was pay to win for a lot of people those that won EVE only paid for their accounts and if they really won EVE didn't even have to pay that as they could use ISK to buy PLEX from the poor suckers who suck at EVE.
The one constant that made this all tolerable was the knowledge that skill points would never take less time and must be trained by someone to acquire and no matter who trained them that time was waited for that particular skill and that constant was unalterable and the core mechanic of EVE.
That one solace of uncorruptibility made every other unacceptable and compromised pay to win aspect of EVE tolerable.
Until now.
now there is nothing left to enjoy beyond simply being able to play it as long as I want with never paying CCP a single real cent ever. And that is not very enjoyable as it represents malice, contempt and hate and reminds me that I was lied to by the very company that developed the game I have thus far enjoyed.
You see I felt the desire to pay them with real cash in spite of being in a position even just starting my career in EVE to already not have to pay CCP real money ever again if I wanted to.
Paying nothing to CCP ever again... That is what really winning EVE looks like from a true game play standpoint in a total pay to win environment and its just... boring.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:38:51 -
[1389] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:Zappity wrote:
And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
Buy PLEX with cash Sell PLEX on market PLEX = ISK Am amazed you did not know this while trying to appear expert on the matter. what zappity means is
since isk doesnt come from no where, the price of PLEX will go up or down with demand and supply of it
if someone tries to sell alot of plex to get alot of isk. they'll find the price of plex dropping and getting alot less isk per plex until its no longer worth trading plex for isk.
and if the injector is expensive, then this would cause the price ratio of plex to injector to change drastically.
so in the end, it balances it out.
yes you can trade plex for isk. but if theres to much plex for sale, the isk you get might not be worth it, causing you to lose. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
742
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:46:51 -
[1390] - Quote
This new mechanic would decidedly more common, yet there is a question whether it constitutes "pay to skip/progress" rather than "pay to win". Depending on which perspective you take either seems justifiable.
People are paying for things you had to put effort and/or time in to getting. The balance seems to be most often heavily skewed in favor of paying in terms of time/$value. Even if you work minimum wage, paying an hour worth of work is almost always faster than an hour of effort in game. |
|
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:52:25 -
[1391] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Dalketh wrote:Zappity wrote:
And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
Buy PLEX with cash Sell PLEX on market PLEX = ISK Am amazed you did not know this while trying to appear expert on the matter. what zappity means is since isk doesnt come from no where, the price of PLEX will go up or down with demand and supply of it if someone tries to sell alot of plex to get alot of isk. they'll find the price of plex dropping and getting alot less isk per plex until its no longer worth trading plex for isk. and if the injector is expensive, then this would cause the price ratio of plex to injector to change drastically. so in the end, it balances it out. yes you can trade plex for isk. but if theres to much plex for sale, the isk you get might not be worth it, causing you to lose.
Thanks for stating the obvious but the price of plex yesterday, today or tomorrow doesn't change the reality of what this 'buy skills instantly' is. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1878
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 21:57:44 -
[1392] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:This new mechanic would decidedly more common, yet there is a question whether it constitutes "pay to skip/progress" rather than "pay to win". Depending on which perspective you take either seems justifiable.
People are paying for things you had to put effort and/or time in to getting. The balance seems to be most often heavily skewed in favor of paying in terms of time/$value. Even if you work minimum wage, paying an hour worth of work is almost always faster than an hour of effort in game. That's a result of people in game not making the same value decision. For a group large enough to sustain PLEX prices, the privilege of paying a sub (or AUR related services) via PLEX seems to outweigh the idea of earning the cost in real money. And that's something of a fair assessment given the use range of real money compared to the possible uses of in game isk.
But in reality all PLEX does is provide a medium to trade one kind of time for another, sub time for isk grind time. CCP created a series of time trades and likely views this as just another one of them, making the actual conversion sub time for training time in the case where PLEX is used. Considering they both originate from cash, well... what was the objection again? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1878
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:01:53 -
[1393] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:Thanks for stating the obvious but the price of plex yesterday, today or tomorrow doesn't change the reality of what this 'buy skills instantly' is. What the mechanics of PLEX do mean is that it's your fellow players doing everything from making PLEX function to deciding how much in game grind it's worth, to producing the SP and setting a value on that as well.
Basically every PLEX to SP series of trades conducted isn't a CCP transaction as much as it is a series of fully complicit players acting together.
|
Memphis Baas
994
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:08:46 -
[1394] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I'm not putting myself on pedestal. I had to wait a long time to get where I'm at in this game and now CCP is handing out freebies?? And now every scrub is coming out from the woodwork crying "CCP helps us, we need them SP injectors now waaahhh".
And I doubt CCP is gonna put a steep price on these extractors/injectors because they want them sold in masses to make them a good buck or why else would they even bother to go this far?
Sorry that you waited, but that's the problem: you waited. If you didn't play this game while you were subscribed, your subscription money is wasted. This MMO gives us skills while subscribed, unlike other MMO's where you have to GRIND for the XP and levels, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to, or the owner of, anything. They could shut down the servers tomorrow and they wouldn't owe you a thing. They could cut everyone's skillpoints in half (like they cut everyone's sec. status in half 5 years ago); they could completely remove capital ships or whatever set of ships they want; you're not entitled to anything.
If you're subscribed, you're supposed to play and have fun; that's the only thing that you're entitled to, for the subscription money. Seriously, a lot of the "scrubs" you see asking for this feature are probably older characters than you. 2003 early access here (Armageddon), multiple characters, and I am pro skill injectors, unlikely to use them (don't need them).
Second, about the price, it will be HIGH. Because everyone's complaining in this thread, so they will pre-nerf it. Also because the same CCP people will put a price on this that were responsible for pricing the ship SKINs. How many ships do you fly? I can do all subcapitals. How much would it cost you (me) to get something along the lines of "I want to color all my ships some shade of blue, and on weekends something with yellow, ALL the ships." How much would that cost? Same people will price this feature. Minimum 1000 aur per extractor, I'm willing to bet on it. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
742
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:16:36 -
[1395] - Quote
Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk.
Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1878
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:20:32 -
[1396] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar? Depends, should SP trade mechanics have an entry point in the billions or the (possibly) hundreds of millions for accessibility.
There's also the factors that strongly distinguish this mechanically from the Bazaar which makes neither of them effectively redundant so...
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:30:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar? yes.
partially because say i have this character, instead of buying a new character, a SP injector can quickly get the missing skill, instead of making me w8 a full week or week and a half.
of coarse. i say a SINGLE SP injector.
1 or 2 is all you really need.
if you need 5 to 10.....thats not right. so a limiter on them would work. (if u need 5 to 10, then character bazaar) |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:38:17 -
[1398] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar? yes. partially because say i have this character, instead of buying a new character, a SP injector can quickly get the missing skill, instead of making me w8 a full week or week and a half. of coarse. i say a SINGLE SP injector. 1 or 2 is all you really need. if you need 5 to 10.....thats not right. so a limiter on them would work. (if u need 5 to 10, then character bazaar)
Your logic baffles me. 1 or 2 is fine. More is 'not right'..... lol
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
206
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:49:32 -
[1399] - Quote
itt people have trouble distinguishing between figuratively buying-áSP and literally buying SP |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1996
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:53:54 -
[1400] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. SP is not created de novo so you cannot 'buy SP for cash'. You must purchase it from another player, exactly as per the character bazaar. This also adds a new SP sink which I think is a good thing. And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
An ISK or RL rich player can buy SP, irrespective of where it comes from. sure no net SP are added to the game but the rich will be able to accumulate SP faster than the less well off.
This isn't pay to win as there isn't really a win in EvE beyond goals you set yourself, put it is definitely pay-for-advantage and the rich will exploit and control it as best they can at the expense of the less rich. |
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:00:12 -
[1401] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar? yes. partially because say i have this character, instead of buying a new character, a SP injector can quickly get the missing skill, instead of making me w8 a full week or week and a half. of coarse. i say a SINGLE SP injector. 1 or 2 is all you really need. if you need 5 to 10.....thats not right. so a limiter on them would work. (if u need 5 to 10, then character bazaar) Your logic baffles me. 1 or 2 is fine. More is 'not right'..... lol by that i mean, for a new player, 1 or 2 is enough SP to fill alot of skills for a starter.
5 to 10, is way more than a starter needs, and is looking more like someone is boosting a character, which currently is the character bazaar.
since this is mostly for new players or low SP characters, 1 to 2 is enough to set a player up. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2635
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:03:20 -
[1402] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. SP is not created de novo so you cannot 'buy SP for cash'. You must purchase it from another player, exactly as per the character bazaar. This also adds a new SP sink which I think is a good thing. And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX. An ISK or RL rich player can buy SP, irrespective of where it comes from. sure no net SP are added to the game but the rich will be able to accumulate SP faster than the less well off. This isn't pay to win as there isn't really a win in EvE beyond goals you set yourself, put it is definitely pay-for-advantage and the rich will exploit and control it as best they can at the expense of the less rich. Exactly as occurs in the character bazaar.
It is clearly not "pay to win" regardless of your goals. This term describes the situation where you can only purchase an in game advantage with RL cash.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:13:35 -
[1403] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Exactly as occurs in the character bazaar.
It is clearly not "pay to win" regardless of your goals. This term describes the situation where you can only purchase an in game advantage with RL cash.
Exactly the "only" is the key point. Too many people have the wrong definition. Pay2win was coined originally for other types of games, and does not transfer 1:1 to EVE. How can you "win" in a game where you set your own win criteria, and can always compensate the advantage in another way (for example by bringing n+1 or moving to another system)? Only when you cannot achieve something giving an advantage without paying, is it pay2win.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:23:50 -
[1404] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:Zappity wrote: Exactly as occurs in the character bazaar.
It is clearly not "pay to win" regardless of your goals. This term describes the situation where you can only purchase an in game advantage with RL cash.
Exactly the "only" is the key point. Too many people have the wrong definition. Pay2win was coined originally for other types of games, and does not transfer 1:1 to EVE. How can you "win" in a game where you set your own win criteria, and can always compensate the advantage in another way (for example by bringing n+1 or moving to another system)? Only when you cannot achieve something giving an advantage without paying, is it pay2win.
yep yep
example of pay to win in EVE would be
ammo you can only get with money that gives you a much higher chance of hitting target or does more dmg a ship you can only get with money that has superior stats to normal ships (example, Fleet Issue that can only be bought with rl money)
skill injectors are more similar to XP boosters in GW2, WoW, or Premium account(for bonus exp)
its similar to a cerebral accelerator, except gives the exp now, instead over the course of your first month.
will having more SP than the enemy make you always win? no. cause it depends heavily on ships both people bring, weapons, builds, and numbers on both sides.
SP helps you be able to use stuff, or use it more effectively, but it isn't a auto win.
not to mention, you can buy SP injectors with isk you earn in game, and thus (unlike XP boosters in other games) its more accessible without money. (and more at the mercy of the playerbase to change its price)
as Scott says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0M7jkv3xkQ
his 60mill SP character can be beaten by a 10mill SP character depending on what ship/build both are using.
(though a 60mill SP character vs a 1mill SP character who can't use the basic weapons....would be a pretty big stretch. at 10mill your pretty set up) |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
3769
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:43:41 -
[1405] - Quote
I want moore PLEX on market.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
|
Fredou
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:50:08 -
[1406] - Quote
i predict first day that thing is on eve will have a few player with maxed out skill point. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
742
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 23:56:50 -
[1407] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:as Scott says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0M7jkv3xkQ his 60mill SP character can be beaten by a 10mill SP character depending on what ship/build both are using. (though a 60mill SP character vs a 1mill SP character who can't use the basic weapons....would be a pretty big stretch.
it's just lol honestly a 60 m SP toon got beaten by 10m SP toon, so i didn't get the thing, who is going to buy SP injectors? Scott? To nake sure he wont be beaten be lil guy? With same success 1m SP catalyst pilot would own 10m SP peacefull miner. Meaning this lil guy doing more than well. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:02:26 -
[1408] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Yaasmine wrote:as Scott says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0M7jkv3xkQ his 60mill SP character can be beaten by a 10mill SP character depending on what ship/build both are using. (though a 60mill SP character vs a 1mill SP character who can't use the basic weapons....would be a pretty big stretch. it's just lol honestly a 60 m SP toon got beaten by 10m SP toon, so i didn't get the thing, who is going to buy SP injectors? Scott? To nake sure he wont be beaten be lil guy? With same success 1m SP catalyst pilot would own 10m SP peacefull miner. Meaning this lil guy doing more than well. 1mill you can't use much in the way of weapons, ships, systems, or such.
10mill. your pretty decently set up in several ships |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2002
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:39:11 -
[1409] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Yaasmine wrote:as Scott says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0M7jkv3xkQ his 60mill SP character can be beaten by a 10mill SP character depending on what ship/build both are using. (though a 60mill SP character vs a 1mill SP character who can't use the basic weapons....would be a pretty big stretch. it's just lol honestly a 60 m SP toon got beaten by 10m SP toon, so i didn't get the thing, who is going to buy SP injectors? Scott? To nake sure he wont be beaten be lil guy? With same success 1m SP catalyst pilot would own 10m SP peacefull miner. Meaning this lil guy doing more than well. 1mill you can't use much in the way of weapons, ships, systems, or such. 10mill. your pretty decently set up in several ships 1 mil SP is the couple of injectors you said should be enough for a new player but here you say it doesn't get much? 10 mil would be 20 packs...not cheap... |
Assassin126
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:42:33 -
[1410] - Quote
You can kill people with 16 minutes of skills after creating a character.. Not sure why that matters though.
Will they be sold on the test server for 100 ISK each? :) |
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:48:54 -
[1411] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Yaasmine wrote:as Scott says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0M7jkv3xkQ his 60mill SP character can be beaten by a 10mill SP character depending on what ship/build both are using. (though a 60mill SP character vs a 1mill SP character who can't use the basic weapons....would be a pretty big stretch. it's just lol honestly a 60 m SP toon got beaten by 10m SP toon, so i didn't get the thing, who is going to buy SP injectors? Scott? To nake sure he wont be beaten be lil guy? With same success 1m SP catalyst pilot would own 10m SP peacefull miner. Meaning this lil guy doing more than well. 1mill you can't use much in the way of weapons, ships, systems, or such. 10mill. your pretty decently set up in several ships 1 mil SP is the couple of injectors you said should be enough for a new player but here you say it doesn't get much? 10 mil would be 20 packs...not cheap... you start off with 400k SP
give them 1mill SP, and thats enough to get set up to use basic skills. (aka 1.4mil SP)
not kill a 60mill captain. but have basic skills instead of w8ing 2-3 weeks. |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 02:25:19 -
[1412] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:If Character Bazar is also p2w as many pointed that out why would we need another one with similar purpose?
its not even close to pay to win the only possibly way to pay to win in eve is to pay another player to out right train you in how to not suck at the game. having skill points and knowing how to use them are huge difference every person i know who has dropped real life money on plex to convert to isk in order to buy a high sp char got their ass kicked in pvp every time untill they either rage quit or decided to learn how to play. it's not even pay to win for people who are good at the game since they already have a character with sp all it does is provide them with alts. the most this does is pay to save time.
P.S. im not for or against this just speaking the base layer facts. the only aspect i actually like is the ability to remove some skills i wish i never trained lol |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
411
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 02:25:51 -
[1413] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar? For scrubs, yes! For everyone else, no!
|
Memphis Baas
994
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 02:35:15 -
[1414] - Quote
Fredou wrote:i predict first day that thing is on eve will have a few player with maxed out skill point.
All skills V = 500 million skillpoints or thereabouts.
A character training every year without interruption from when the game was released in 2003 would have 250 million or so by now (2016). This character would require 1666 injectors to get to 500 million. 840 million skillpoints would be destroyed to create these injectors. And if it costs 1000 Aur per extractor (that's my guess), the cost just in Aur is $8,300 to extract the skills.
If you're talking about an Average Joe with 60 million skillpoints (3 years of playing) trying to max out, that's 2900 injectors, $15,000 to extract.
But let's say that the guy doesn't care about extracting, he'll just find unlimited numbers of injectors on the market in Jita, because the playerbase is big and can provide them. At the predicted cost of Aur+1/4PLEX, it would cost the 2003 character $16,000 to buy enough PLEX to buy the injectors he needs from Jita, and it would cost the Average Joe $30,000 cause he needs more injectors.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
743
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 02:35:15 -
[1415] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:
P.S. im not for or against this just speaking the base layer facts. the only aspect i actually like is the ability to remove some skills i wish i never trained lol
it was suggested many times, to give a chance with proper tool called SP remap similar to Attributes remap and allow us to clear some skills fields which are no longer in use. but it was ignored. ccp has also mentioned possible scenario of attributes removal with standard SP/hour ratio. again, we have SP trade system instead. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3358
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:05:31 -
[1416] - Quote
Since some of the recent arguments seem to like to equate this to the character bazaar I guess you will not mind this new improvement replacing it? As in we shutter the bazaar in the near future?
No, they are not the same. That point was made by Rise in the first post. He disliked getting a character with its own baggage. You know, consequences?
On the other hand the consequence of buying the sp packets will be the cost. Part of that cost will be determined by CCP in the cost of the Extractors and part by the dynamic player market (what do YOU think your points are worth?) CCP is NOT selling skill points, so stop saying that. They went with the ancient wisdom of 'In a gold rush the man who gets rich is the one selling the shovels'. That is what the Extractors are, the shovels.
Is this for the new players? No. I actually recommend not telling new players about this at all for fear of the impression being made. 'Oh hi, yeah, have a couple of weeks for free. What? Oh yeah, this is a subscription game so after that you have to pay (or someone has to pay if you are good enough to make the value of a Plex in game) What? Yeah implants speed things up a little, yeah there IS a faster way . . .you just buy skill points on the market. No, that is not part of the sub fees. Yes, it is a bit pricey but if you buy a Plex to turn into Isk then you can buy them in game. Yes, Plex can be used to buy things in the game but we don't call it a currency. Oh you can also buy Aurum with Plex. Aurum is a currency you cannot trade or transfer. Wait . . . where are you going? come back?"
Oh I admit there are some who will buy into this idea in a big way. The term for them is whales, I believe.
That is the balancing act CCP is betting on. That the increase revenue will exceed any losses via disillusioned players leaving. As I said before, I am staying, not because I agree with this plan but because I hope that the game will weather this decision, one way or another. I have tried to put a lot into the game and the gaming community. I have friends here. I cannot just walk away when things get rough. My play style may be impacted? I'll adapt. People will suddenly be better than me? News flash, lots already are and I keep playing anyways.
With great trepidation I will be paying my first subscription fees in three years come this April. But pay them I will.
See? That is how an optimistic anarchist HTFU's
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33253
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:27:22 -
[1417] - Quote
I'm just glad CCP doesn't spend money on badbrained player volunteers
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:28:58 -
[1418] - Quote
Mike. It is no different than trying to explain pvp to a new guy that just got owned by smaller, less expensive, ships. Or traveling down a low sec pipe to get camped on three separate occasions in the same play session (yes, it does happen very often) and wants this BS explained. I've learned that with newbs you tell them only as much as they can handle atm, because Eve is just too big, with too many layers. On top of this all, it will be easier to circumvent the total frustration a new player feels when he repeatedly feels like the ship he needs is always a week, weeks, months, or half a year away.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
745
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:32:53 -
[1419] - Quote
I'll adapt.
That's all about it. But i got a strong feeling CCP doesn't care much of newbies tbh. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
411
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:35:41 -
[1420] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:That is the balancing act CCP is betting on. That the increase revenue will exceed any losses via disillusioned players leaving. The one who is disillusioned is CCP. Their gambling this time is a bad one and unlike in the past where if they made a mistake they could just fix it next patch, they won't be able to fix it this time. This time it's different, once they implement this feature there would be no going back. Not only that but this is uncharted territory in the game core mechanics that CCP never touched since this game been released until now. There won't be another retry if they get this wrong so they really should consider player feedback and really take their time with this before they outright kill this game.
And this "balancing act of increase revenue will exceeding any losses via players leaving", will only be temporary. Once the dust clears and the wonder drug wears off this game is gonna hit rock bottom. Unless they actually get this right on the first try, by carefully listening to player feedback and not destroying the game at it's core. |
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 03:46:08 -
[1421] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:That is the balancing act CCP is betting on. That the increase revenue will exceed any losses via disillusioned players leaving. The one who is disillusioned is CCP. Their gambling this time is a bad one and unlike in the past where if they made a mistake they could just fix it next patch, they won't be able to fix it this time. This time it's different, once they implement this feature there would be no going back. Not only that but this is uncharted territory in the game core mechanics that CCP never touched since this game been released until now. There won't be another retry if they get this wrong so they really should consider player feedback and really take their time with this before they outright kill this game.
Yes. Pricing of the extractors is paramount to how this will play out. IMO, they should be equal the cost of the estimated value of the half a month training or more. So, when people say 1000, I don't think they are too far off. 1800 would pits a lot of people off, but it will govern this handedly.
I don't agree with removing the bazaar, as there will always be abandoned characters. More like extractors will bring the end of the bazaar, as those who sell characters will simply see more revenue with the extracted SP and the character factors out of the way. If they can afford the extractors, or at least the first one.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2636
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 04:28:05 -
[1422] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Since some of the recent arguments seem to like to equate this to the character bazaar I guess you will not mind this new improvement replacing it? As in we shutter the bazaar in the near future?
No, they are not the same. That point was made by Rise in the first post. He disliked getting a character with its own baggage. You know, consequences?
Of course they are not the same. And the bazaar will still have a valuable role, namely the legitimate transfer of high SP characters.
The point of the character bazaar equivalency is to point out that the principle of buying SP with ISK is already present in the game. Owing to its role in combating RMT, it will almost certainly not be removed. I see little added harm (and lots of added benefit) in adding an alternative method by which this can be accomplished.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Memphis Baas
995
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 04:29:22 -
[1423] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:they really should consider player feedback and really take their time with this before they outright kill this game.
And this "balancing act of increase revenue will exceeding any losses via players leaving", will only be temporary. Once the dust clears and the wonder drug wears off this game is gonna hit rock bottom.
OMG the doom and gloom!
Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do.
As far as EVE hitting rock bottom, EVE and any other game will always hit rock bottom if left alone. Developers have to keep implementing change after change, expansion after expansion, to keep the game going. "Taking their time" is what results in rock bottom; they did try an 18-month vacation (literally) a while back and it was awful. This gets implemented, citadels get implemented, capital ships get improved, and voila, no more rock bottom. As long as they keep adding shiny new things, we'll play.
Every other MMO out there is dealing with the fact that the past few expansions have increased the level cap and NEW players are unwilling to start from level 1 when all they want to see is the new (end-game) shiny. Free level 60, 12x expedited leveling, increased XP from quests... the EVE equivalent of what every other MMO is doing would be free skillpoints, and free Genolution 12x implants, etc.
But no, every time CCP tries to get with the times, we predict doom and gloom, and act all entitled. Eve is dying, they're killing EVE, blah blah blah. You know what CCP should do? Go 6 months with no dev blogs, just implement whatever the hell they had planned, and boom suddenly it's on TQ with no warning, deal with it. Because every time they devblogged this past year, we kicked and screamed bloody murder. No appreciation.
I'd go one step further, and post regular pie-in-the-sky devblogs that have nothing to do with what gets implemented on TQ. Like, "March release, we're re-vamping mining to involve a mini-game (lots of pictures and text on the minigame) and also changing the asteroid distribution (charts on where the new asteroids will be)" and come March actually release the change to carriers (make them DPS only) and the new logistics capital ships.
And in the comments thread for the March release once it's out, only allow players to comment on mining. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 04:34:17 -
[1424] - Quote
You don't want to know what I think about Citadels...
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Memphis Baas
995
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 04:40:34 -
[1425] - Quote
No, not in this thread. There are several Citadel threads.
But, they've only implemented all the artwork, core coding on how they'll work, and most of the features, so it's too early to post your opinion. Wait until we're closer to release, and THEN it will be the perfect time to ask them to completely change / revamp their plans, because the current implementation that they've blogged 6 times about will KILL EVE. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 04:45:46 -
[1426] - Quote
Much like here, enough can be presumed or foretold with high accuracy by just having one single piece of information left out: Extractor AUR cost.
Citadels are no different in the case of where and how you can anchor them. But, yes, there are many threads in the warfare and tactics forum.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Rebel Gunn
Society for EVE Preservation
24
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 05:25:52 -
[1427] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: That is the balancing act CCP is betting on. That the increase revenue will exceed any losses via disillusioned players leaving. As I said before, I am staying, not because I agree with this plan but because I hope that the game will weather this decision, one way or another. I have tried to put a lot into the game and the gaming community. I have friends here. I cannot just walk away when things get rough. My play style may be impacted? I'll adapt. People will suddenly be better than me? News flash, lots already are and I keep playing anyways.
With great trepidation I will be paying my first subscription fees in three years come this April. But pay them I will.
See? That is how an optimistic anarchist HTFU's
m
I don't see a balancing act here. It's a poorly disguised attempt to ram a pay-to-win scheme down players throats. Everyone who has ever played an F2P or other game that derives much or all of its revenue from microtransactions understands just how different the dynamic is between players in the game compared to a subscription model.
CCP has by any measure been successful with a subscription model. There have been trips and falls along the way, but they survived when so many have not. It's integral to how EVE gameplay and skill advancement works. Why abandon it when the risks of heavy microtransactions are so well known? This is a clear mistake.
I can only conclude that either CCP management has no idea what it is doing anymore, or that it this is a calculated move to extract as much money as they can as fast as they can toward some other end not related to building EVE further for the long-term. I'll leave speculation on the latter to others; I just know they aren't focused on the needs of their customer anymore.
I think this is why so many people here are so angry. We can feel that the relationship to us as customers is becoming one-sided, and we are just being used with increasingly little in return. That's not a healthy dynamic for a game. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
206
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 06:55:54 -
[1428] - Quote
Zappity wrote:The point of the character bazaar equivalency is to point out that the principle of buying SP with ISK is already present in the game. Actually, you can only buy characters on the character bazaar. Strange but true. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1880
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 07:05:35 -
[1429] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Zappity wrote:The point of the character bazaar equivalency is to point out that the principle of buying SP with ISK is already present in the game. Actually, you can only buy characters on the character bazaar. Strange but true. Yet try as we might we can't seem to get that to work without also transferring the SP that character has. Or maybe I'm wrong with all the denials of getting SP with a character sale and we've found a way in the meantime?
Because certainly it's not people trying to dismiss one of the core reasons people look for characters on the Bazaar, the SP that those characters have and the capabilities granted by that, on such a flimsy and irrelevant technicality.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
206
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 07:10:57 -
[1430] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Yet try as we might we can't seem to get that to work without also transferring the SP that character has. I know. It's weird. It's almost like, at present, skill points are not a property that is separable from the character who owns them.
Quote:Because certainly it's not people trying to dismiss one of the core reasons people look for characters on the BazaarGǪ Nah, I just don't care for equivocation. |
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
508
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 07:12:20 -
[1431] - Quote
SP trade is just the begining:
Aria
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1880
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 07:21:31 -
[1432] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Yet try as we might we can't seem to get that to work without also transferring the SP that character has. I know. It's weird. It's almost like, at present, skill points are not a property that is separable from the character who owns them. Quote:Because certainly it's not people trying to dismiss one of the core reasons people look for characters on the BazaarGǪ Nah, I just don't care for equivocation. Fair enough, though for the conversation at hand I'm not sure we're dealing with actual equivocation vs a more relevant truth regarding Bazaar purchases.
May depend on broader opinions.
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Fifty Shades of Funkyness LLC
283
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 08:30:32 -
[1433] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:SP trade is just the begining: Aria
The lines in the linked article that spell it out. Wow. Did the majority of Eve Online customers just get pwned by CCP for not being the 1% in RL?
"What kind of in-game purchases might a player make inside Valkyrie? Almost any feature can be monetized into microtransactions (-ú1-9 range) but given how much the Oculus pre-orders cost, could this be an entirely different, far more affluent customer that CCP is targeting?"
Unwashed masses indeed. Sorry CCCP, no more Plex or Aurum purchases from me, and no micro-bilking of my budget. Hope you make up those losses elsewhere, I'm sure you could care less all you'll get is subscription payments from one dinky customer.
Day-um.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
747
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 09:14:20 -
[1434] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:SP trade is just the begining: Aria
Below the Belt... |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
81
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:11:34 -
[1435] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Unwashed masses indeed. Sorry CCCP, no more Plex or Aurum purchases from me, and no micro-bilking of my budget. Hope you make up those losses elsewhere, I'm sure you could care less all you'll get is subscription payments from one dinky customer. Day-um. >Jeven
I'm with you. Suspended a few accounts, no more plex, no more aurum, no skins. and no Valkyrie for me...
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2636
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:17:44 -
[1436] - Quote
Wow. I'm so glad CCP isn't watching this thread any more. It is depressing.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:21:49 -
[1437] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Wow. I'm so glad CCP isn't watching this thread any more. It is depressing.
A bit like your blog.....
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
Sespria Secantus
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:34:34 -
[1438] - Quote
Looks like the Eve train is heading for a collision course and I don't like train wrecks so I don't think I'll be resubbing anymore once my game time expires. A pity, I thought this game had some real promise.
Can anyone here in this thread refer me to another game like Eve, but without the pay2win disease? |
Aerious
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:40:26 -
[1439] - Quote
After 12 years im also looking for a new game.
Star Citizen Which is currently in alpha looks promising. But has microtransactions from the get go.
Stellaris Looks kinda fun, eve and dust rolled into one package.
"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."
|
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
848
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:49:53 -
[1440] - Quote
Heres a really "off the wall idea " ..if CCP are so desperate for a ca$h injection ....then why dont they just sell blocks of shares to the player base.....and end this nonsence of a P2W model for once and for all.
theres a fair few relativley affluent players ingame that I reckon would be more than happy to invest |
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2636
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:52:40 -
[1441] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Zappity wrote:Wow. I'm so glad CCP isn't watching this thread any more. It is depressing. A bit like your blog..... Gotta admit that gave me a chuckle.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2636
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 10:54:34 -
[1442] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Can anyone here in this thread refer me to another game like Eve, but without the pay2win disease? Now that's an interesting question. I wonder how many MMOs do not offer some form of accelerated progression. Not many I'd guess.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
508
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:00:14 -
[1443] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Wow. I'm so glad CCP isn't watching this thread any more. It is depressing. Yes it is. CSM problems, lack of communication in focus groups, modules tiercide lost somewhere. In the meantime they monetized outdated xp system. We all know there is an issue with SP gaining. So rather than change it they charge it. Truly, this is rubicon.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:10:45 -
[1444] - Quote
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:11:55 -
[1445] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Wow. I'm so glad CCP isn't watching this thread any more. It is depressing.
Commercial suicide IS depressing. |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:26:33 -
[1446] - Quote
Sespria Secantus wrote:Looks like the Eve train is heading for a collision course and I don't like train wrecks so I don't think I'll be resubbing anymore once my game time expires. A pity, I thought this game had some real promise.
Can anyone here in this thread refer me to another game like Eve, but without the pay2win disease?
ummm your wrong and eve is still not gonna be pay to win? derp this is no diff then character bazaar also not pay to win the only thing you can do is pay to save time nothing more.
unless they already know how to play dropping money on plex to buy a char or sp wont help them not suck at the game. and this system is so limited that it would still be cheaper to buy a char. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
747
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:34:16 -
[1447] - Quote
Shova'k wrote: and this system is so limited that it would still be cheaper to buy a char.
the SP bazar should replace Char Bazar haven't you figured that out yet? |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:42:18 -
[1448] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Sespria Secantus wrote:Looks like the Eve train is heading for a collision course and I don't like train wrecks so I don't think I'll be resubbing anymore once my game time expires. A pity, I thought this game had some real promise.
Can anyone here in this thread refer me to another game like Eve, but without the pay2win disease? ummm your wrong and eve is still not gonna be pay to win? derp this is no diff then character bazaar also not pay to win the only thing you can do is pay to save time nothing more. unless they already know how to play dropping money on plex to buy a char or sp wont help them not suck at the game. and this system is so limited that it would still be cheaper to buy a char.
Eve will just die off over time as the Pay To Win in the game will kill the way the game is. it will get to the point when SP will be so cheap that every one will be able to get it.
It will be spammed on the markets cheap or farmed by the gold farming CCP have turned eve in to other World of Warcraft |
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc. Haven.
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:51:14 -
[1449] - Quote
Suede wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
It's like CCP forgets their promises every time they change things in their organization. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:53:26 -
[1450] - Quote
MECHcore wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed.
But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work, and the decisions about what to do with it don't require any less understanding or experience.
That's on top of the fact that that SP is coming from a CC even without this, something the post you quoted objected to.
Basically everything about it seemed wrong from my perspective.
"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed." Take notice that i agreed on myself "But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work" Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible. And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game. I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul.
Just a Shame that CCP have not thought about it old Vets who have been playing Since alpha/Beta who had to train skills for over 10 years to get to where we are today all the sub fees all the time it took CCP just could not careless And for a New made account and an Eve player just to get it all in less then a 24hrs it more a done Deal even before CCP posted the first Dev blog as CCP know it a good CashCow and CCP would not say no to money as to CCP money comes first over it paying players |
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:58:10 -
[1451] - Quote
Suede wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "
CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source
Don't think this means what you think it means............. SP trading does not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. If you invest time (waiting), you can get the same skills that someone bought. The end result: Both get the same skill, and can do the same things, hence no unfair advantage over waiting untill the skills is trained. So they are not breaking the above promise. I see that CCP Hellmar was looking into the future and being prepared by that statement.
If you will argue that it is an advantage that one got the skills faster, well what about all the people right now who already has most of the skills they need? Are they also pay2win because they subscribed longer?
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 11:58:47 -
[1452] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote:I even bought skins until I realized the only thing they change is the color
lol
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 12:26:05 -
[1453] - Quote
Suede wrote:
Just a Shame that CCP have not thought about it old Vets who have been playing Since alpha/Beta who had to train skills for over 10 years to get to where we are today all the sub fees all the time it took CCP just could not careless And for a New made account and an Eve player just to get it all in less then a 24hrs it more a done Deal even before CCP posted the first Dev blog as CCP know it a good CashCow and CCP would not say no to money as to CCP money comes first over it paying players
So you are basically saying that even if you had a 13 years headstart, you have not accumulated enough ressources/ relations/ know how of the game to feel confident enough about competing against a rookie who would be given the same amounts of sp than you? That is kinda sad.
And another point: perhaps being playing a game you enjoyed for approx. 13 years is reward enough in itself? You already have had a time advantage to develop your player skills over newer players, why do you need to be further rewarded for the time you have been enjoying this game?
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3221
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 13:14:19 -
[1454] - Quote
On the bright side, at least we now know what the CC in CCP stands for.
This is not a signature.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6933
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 13:25:45 -
[1455] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:So you are basically saying that even if you had a 13 years headstart, you have not accumulated enough ressources/ relations/ know how of the game to feel confident enough about competing against a rookie who would be given the same amounts of sp than you? That is kinda sad. That's even online for you, space is harsh and cold.
sero Hita wrote:And another point: perhaps being playing a game you enjoyed for approx. 13 years is reward enough in itself? You already have had a time advantage to develop your player skills over newer players, why do you need to be further rewarded for the time you have been enjoying this game? Nah, you see, space is harsh and cold, only SP will keep you warm at night.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Buba Neagra
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 14:06:18 -
[1456] - Quote
Let's say the market will be :
1 plex = 1 bil 1 extractor + 500k SP(400k/300k/150k) XP= 500 mil
Option 1 : Being a rich mf and buying 200 plex from CCP will get me 200 bil. 200 bil will get me a char over 200 mil SP
Option 2 : Being the same rich mf I decide to buy 200 injectors + 500k SP(400k/300k/150k)
That would be 200 bil for 100 mil SP ( at the 500k SP rate which won't be the case, obviously since you're gonna inject 500k at first then 400k and so on )
I would choose the first option.
I don't think the skill trading is a big deal really. People will buy a few to boost a skill here and there but won't be such a big impact over all.
My two cents. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 14:17:21 -
[1457] - Quote
Suede wrote:
Eve will just die off over time as the Pay To Win in the game will kill the way the game is. it will get to the point when SP will be so cheap that every one will be able to get it.
It will be spammed on the markets cheap or farmed by the gold farming CCP have turned eve in to other World of Warcraft
except 1. WoW isn't dead. and is still the BIGGEST SUBSCRIBER BASED GAME IN EXISTENCE.
pulling in SO MUCH PROFIT, and SO MUCH INFLUENCE that no other game company on earth can match them. not even the company that "owns" them. the company that "owns" blizzard has so little power over blizzard that blizzard does whatever they want, while activision can only follow what blizzard says.
and 2nd. 2 people have done the math now
Buba Neagra wrote:Let's say the market will be :
1 plex = 1 bil 1 extractor + 500k SP(400k/300k/150k) XP= 500 mil
Option 1 : Being a rich mf and buying 200 plex from CCP will get me 200 bil. 200 bil will get me a char over 200 mil SP
Option 2 : Being the same rich mf I decide to buy 200 injectors + 500k SP(400k/300k/150k)
That would be 200 bil for 100 mil SP ( at the 500k SP rate which won't be the case, obviously since you're gonna inject 500k at first then 400k and so on )
I would choose the first option.
I don't think the skill trading is a big deal really. People will buy a few to boost a skill here and there but won't be such a big impact over all.
My two cents.
Memphis Baas wrote:Fredou wrote:i predict first day that thing is on eve will have a few player with maxed out skill point. All skills V = 500 million skillpoints or thereabouts. A character training every year without interruption from when the game was released in 2003 would have 250 million or so by now (2016). This character would require 1666 injectors to get to 500 million. 840 million skillpoints would be destroyed to create these injectors. And if it costs 1000 Aur per extractor (that's my guess), the cost just in Aur is $8,300 to extract the skills. If you're talking about an Average Joe with 60 million skillpoints (3 years of playing) trying to max out, that's 2900 injectors, $15,000 to extract. But let's say that the guy doesn't care about extracting, he'll just find unlimited numbers of injectors on the market in Jita, because the playerbase is big and can provide them. At the predicted cost of Aur+1/4PLEX, it would cost the 2003 character $16,000 to buy enough PLEX to buy the injectors he needs from Jita, and it would cost the Average Joe $30,000 cause he needs more injectors.
if u want to know what P2W is example of pay to win in EVE would be
ammo you can only get with money that gives you a much higher chance of hitting target or does more dmg a ship you can only get with money that has superior stats to normal ships (example, Fleet Issue that can only be bought with rl money)
skill injectors are more similar to XP boosters in GW2, WoW, or Premium account(for bonus exp)
its similar to a cerebral accelerator, except gives the exp now, instead over the course of your first month.
will having more SP than the enemy make you always win? no. cause it depends heavily on ships both people bring, weapons, builds, and numbers on both sides.
SP helps you be able to use stuff, or use it more effectively, but it isn't a auto win.
not to mention, you can buy SP injectors with isk you earn in game, and thus (unlike XP boosters in other games) its more accessible without money. (and more at the mercy of the playerbase to change its price) |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 14:48:52 -
[1458] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:On the bright side, at least we now know what the CC in CCP stands for. Carbon copy?
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 15:45:08 -
[1459] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Second, about the price, it will be HIGH. Because everyone's complaining in this thread, so they will pre-nerf it. Also because the same CCP people will put a price on this that were responsible for pricing the ship SKINs. How many ships do you fly? I can do all subcapitals. How much would it cost you (me) to get something along the lines of "I want to color all my ships some shade of blue, and on weekends something with yellow, ALL the ships." How much would that cost? Same people will price this feature. Minimum 1000 aur per extractor, I'm willing to bet on it. Vanity items can be expensive, because nobody actually needs them. To be honest, ship SKINs and apparel are not even real vanity items in EVE, because it is really difficult for other players to see them. About the only time I see somebody else's ship SKIN is if I am undocking slowly in Jita. And I see other people's apparel properly only when I click "full body" after opening up their portrait. Vanity items in EVE are more narcissistic than properly vain, and the epitome of superfluous (you do not even get to impress anybody else with them).
In contrast, the SP extractors (injectors) are seriously relevant for game play. While they are not necessary, many people will want to use them with some regularity and in various in-game scenarios. They are a bit more like a mobile depot. You don't need one all the time, and there is nothing in the game that absolutely requires having one. But the fact that they exist means that many players will change some of their game play to factor their usage in. And some things you could not achieve without one. (That's not the same as being necessary for the game as such. It means certain ways of playing the game are only available with them.)
We do not have any proper example of something like that being sold for AUR. The closest we come to this are (or were) the Frostline fireworks items. And they were comparatively cheap in AUR.
I still think that anything above 500 AUR would be a really bad idea, and 100-200 AUR per extractor would be about right. At 1000 AUR or more, all this talk about helping newbies would become blatant mockery, adoption would be slow and limited, PLEX prices would rise further, etc. - and in general a lot of additional players would be angry at CCP. I think the rage on display in this thread is unrepresentative so far (e.g., things look rather different on reddit), but a high price for the extractor might well change that... |
Officer Pressly
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 15:53:14 -
[1460] - Quote
Whilest a small part of the community are doomsayers. Most of us really want this, and are looking forward to the changes that are comming. |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3223
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 16:35:30 -
[1461] - Quote
Officer Pressly wrote:Whilest a small part of the community are doomsayers. Most of us really want this, and are looking forward to the changes that are comming. This will allow you to keep up with the changes that are happening in eve, or have happend along time ago.
Most of us....
Really?
No one actually knows how the majority of players feel about this.
This is not a signature.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
143
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 16:51:48 -
[1462] - Quote
Buba Neagra wrote:Let's say the market will be :
1 plex = 1 bil 1 extractor + 500k SP (400k/300k/150k) = 500 mil
Option 1 : Being a rich mf and buying 200 plex from CCP will get me 200 bil. 200 bil will get me a char over 200 mil SP
Option 2 : Being the same rich mf I decide to buy 200 injectors + 500k SP (400k/300k/150k)
That would be 200 bil for 100 mil SP ( at the 500k SP rate which won't be the case obviously since you're gonna inject 500k at first then 400k and so on )
I would choose the first option.
I don't think the skill trading is a big deal really. People will buy a few to boost a skill here and there but won't be such a big impact over all.
My two cents.
This is too cheap. Of all the mockery of doomsayers, many of you are not seeing that it could go both ways.
You make them too expensive and CCP will have gained nothing, hardly helped any new player and have nothing but the heaped on ridicule of being greedy stuck on every wall.
On the flip side, if they price them too low, or ' affordable', as you put it, you will see exactly what CSM Mike, and others, have said. Except he went furthest. The rich will pull them off market with the highest buy orders and use them strategically in-game to buff their alt capital numbers, as it would be much cheaper to make sure no one can oppose you than offer SRP. Then noobs will rely on friends to fill up their purchased extractors because even the bazaar became a wasteland.
They need to not be 'affordable'. The price point you suggest for a full extractor should be what an empty one should come near to being.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Fifty Shades of Funkyness LLC
289
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 17:00:03 -
[1463] - Quote
Timestamp on the thread, Dev Blog; Character Bazaar and Skill Trading
2015-10-15 14:49:18 UTC
CCP bought that cloud based micro-transaction Aria program in... wait for it...!
October. So them asking in the first place for feedback on the idea was rather dishonest of them, they'd made up their minds and paid the deposit on the software distribution contract already.
Why ask us anything, when CCP's obviously already made up their minds?
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 17:02:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Officer Pressly wrote:Whilest a small part of the community are doomsayers. Most of us really want this, and are looking forward to the changes that are comming. This will allow you to keep up with the changes that are happening in eve, or have happend along time ago. Most of us.... Really? No one actually knows how the majority of players feel about this. well you have 5 doom sayers on forums
a few in support of it on forums
and then you have a landslide of supporters on reddit, with a very tiny number of opposers.
on facebook, its the same as reddit. more supporters than opposers, in higher number than on forums, though less total people than reddit (hint hint, reddit gonna be death of facebook xD) |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
116
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 18:07:49 -
[1465] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:Timestamp on the thread, Dev Blog; Character Bazaar and Skill Trading
2015-10-15 14:49:18 UTC
CCP bought that cloud based micro-transaction Aria program in... wait for it...!
October. So them asking in the first place for feedback on the idea was rather dishonest of them, they'd made up their minds and paid the deposit on the software distribution contract already.
Why ask us anything, when CCP's obviously already made up their minds?
>Jeven
IMO. the people playing EVE are a special breed, that wants to be included in every choice CCP makes. CCP plays the balance between giving people the illusion of what they want, and still run a company. They can of course not always listen to the community as usually the most vocal and radical players are found here on the forums.
You think it is dishonest, I think it is born out of the behaviour from the community. They most often get angry and entitled responses (pointing in every direction) when they propose new things. They know people will get upset and act like children if they are not asked. So the only solution if you wanna run your company in your way is to put on the charades for the masses and still go in your direction. If people did not expect to be heard about every small detail, CCP would not have to do this.
Just take this thread, and look at all the misconception and misguided anger, over something that will probably be pretty harmless in the end. If I was CCP I would not like to include a community that act non-professionally, has notorious fear of change, don't have all the information available and a strong sense of entitlement, in decisions that may affect the future of the company. It is not your behinds on the line.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 18:59:06 -
[1466] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote: You make them too expensive and CCP will have gained nothing, hardly helped any new player and have nothing but the heaped on ridicule of being greedy stuck on every wall.
On the flip side, if they price them too low, or ' affordable', as you put it, you will see exactly what CSM Mike, and others, have said. Except he went furthest. The rich will pull them off market with the highest buy orders and use them strategically in-game to buff their alt capital numbers, as it would be much cheaper to make sure no one can oppose you than offer SRP. Then noobs will rely on friends to fill up their purchased extractors because even the bazaar became a wasteland.
They need to not be 'affordable'. The price point you suggest for a full extractor should be what an empty one should come near to being.
This makes no sense whatsoever, even on its own questionable terms. "Affordable" is not some kind of absolute number, it is relative to the person and their financial situation. The ISK rich will do what you suggest whether the filled injectors costs 300M, 500M, 1B or even more ISK, as long as they see some value in such an investment. They can afford it, and they will if it furthers their agenda. You cannot price them out of the market, at least not with a remotely sane price for the extractor.
But you can price "newbies" out of the market, or for that matter mid-level players, or indeed anybody who is neither member of a corp owning an ISK faucet nor embracing grinding as their way of life. If you raise the price too high, make it "not affordable" for most, then the only action you will see is precisely the 1% of EVE recruiting an alt army, or the like. Not only is that a really dumb move concerning overall game play and balance, it isn't even financially attractive. The 1% are that, the 1%. And maybe they buy a good many alts each, but once they are done with that, they will be done with that. There is no steady cash flow in this.
The only thing that makes sense here is to make these extractors affordable. Of course, what the filled injectors will cost is a function of the market. But CCP can manipulate the minimum cost at least, and really should keep it low to see lots of trade and usage of these.
Finally, the idea that the ISK rich of EVE can somehow "suck dry" the SP market is just plain silly. Of course, they can buy out all SP injectors that come to market initially. But if they do this, then the prices for the injectors will be very high on the market (demand outstripping supply). It takes about 2.5 months to set up a SP farm from scratch (the time it takes to get a new character from their initial 400k to 5.5M, ready for extraction). If the prices remain high for a few weeks, lots of people will start building up SP farms. So within about 3 months you will see this first big wave of farmed SP supply hit the market. If the ISK rich insists on buying this SP as fast as it arrives, then you can bet that people will expand their SP farms, and ever more people will continuously try to get in on this enormous ISK flow.
Eventually the ever rising supply will overwhelm the demand, eventually the ISK rich will go broke if they continue buying. It's just not possible to buy up a supply that is not only renewable, but renewable at essentially arbitrary speeds (you can always add more alts to a SP farm). At that point the market would crash, and we would be swimming in an incredible oversupply of injectors, probably being sold off way below cost... |
Darkblad
2644
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:27:45 -
[1467] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:well you have 5 doom sayers on forums
a few in support of it on forums
and then you have a landslide of supporters on reddit, with a very tiny number of opposers. (283 more support skill injectors than oppose. and 388 more support of character bazaar and skill injectors, than oppose)
for reference. the 283 is 92% upvoted. the 388% is 88% upvoted
on facebook, its the same as reddit. more supporters than opposers, in higher number than on forums, though less total people than reddit (hint hint, reddit gonna be death of facebook xD)
and while the opposers are more vocal(leading to more negative posts). the number of people posting, is still more populated on support. Well
Mike Azariah wrote:Funny, you don't have to be a paid subscriber to post in reddit. Here, you do.
Folks who have old accts that they no longer play with may see this as an easier method to 'cash out'
By Cash out, yes, I mean RMT. Of course they would be in favour of something that would allow them to get some of their money back out of the game. Strip an old character you no longer play with and see cold hard cash in return.
I am not saying that all of reddit thinks that way but that there are ways to explain the difference in opinion across various forums.
m
and
Sugar Kyle Sort Dragon Mike Azariah Steve Ronuken
NPE GÇô ISD
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:37:38 -
[1468] - Quote
Darkblad wrote:Yaasmine wrote:well you have 5 doom sayers on forums
a few in support of it on forums
and then you have a landslide of supporters on reddit, with a very tiny number of opposers. (283 more support skill injectors than oppose. and 388 more support of character bazaar and skill injectors, than oppose)
for reference. the 283 is 92% upvoted. the 388% is 88% upvoted
on facebook, its the same as reddit. more supporters than opposers, in higher number than on forums, though less total people than reddit (hint hint, reddit gonna be death of facebook xD)
and while the opposers are more vocal(leading to more negative posts). the number of people posting, is still more populated on support. WellMike Azariah wrote:Funny, you don't have to be a paid subscriber to post in reddit. Here, you do.
Folks who have old accts that they no longer play with may see this as an easier method to 'cash out'
By Cash out, yes, I mean RMT. Of course they would be in favour of something that would allow them to get some of their money back out of the game. Strip an old character you no longer play with and see cold hard cash in return.
I am not saying that all of reddit thinks that way but that there are ways to explain the difference in opinion across various forums.
m
and Sugar KyleSort DragonMike AzariahSteve Ronuken except that "cold hard cash" that mike mentions, wont be real. it will be virtual currency in game. (which they can earn anyway from selling the character in the bazaar, or selling plex)
if he wants "cold hard cash" he's gonna have to sell the characters in a non character bazaar way. which is against ToS. and open to scamming
and Steve said
Steve Ronuken wrote: A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind"
aka, there is a level he's willing to compromise at. which was a big reason for this thread. discuss a way to make this fair and smooth. (reward for tutorials? hard cap limit on number of uses? diminishing returns?)
and yet, instead of being productive to that end, this thread devolved into a few people(closed minded who can't calculate how much people would have to pay to do what these closed minded people are saying will happen) spamming corruption, greed, and doomcry posts.
and so the chance to convince CCP to put a limit on them or such. was drowned by the insults. and the search for it aborted. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:38:11 -
[1469] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do.
Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
5
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:39:59 -
[1470] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do. Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. which is why they asked new players, who it was ment for.....
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1881
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:56:26 -
[1471] - Quote
Suede wrote:Just a Shame that CCP have not thought about it old Vets who have been playing Since alpha/Beta who had to train skills for over 10 years to get to where we are today all the sub fees all the time it took CCP just could not careless And for a New made account and an Eve player just to get it all in less then a 24hrs it more a done Deal even before CCP posted the first Dev blog as CCP know it a good CashCow and CCP would not say no to money as to CCP money comes first over it paying players What's funny is in order for the "all in less that 24 hours" worst case to play out you'd need to likely invest more money via PLEX than a 2003 player has spent over their entire tenure in sub prices. That's on top of hoping the SP is actually available to purchase. People keep bemoaning their "investment" in their SP while overlooking that they got it with their sub and leaving out that anyone who takes advantage of this does so with gameplay time or money beyond that while we just waited.
The argument of investment of a sub just doesn't really work here. And ironically it's the vets in the best position to use this, either as contributors of SP or buyers via already having the isk.
ViolentDesire wrote:Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. Since when do they do this? Ever? And if such votes are so important, why do you play a game where they never have them? Also people need to learn that feedback != a vote.
Yaasmine wrote:which is why they asked new players, who it was ment for..... Exactly, how dare they post the blog in new citizens Q&A! Wait, they didn't? They posted it here where it's received a large amount of vet feedback? But that would make this a lie. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:56:27 -
[1472] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do. Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. which is why they asked new players, who it was ment for..... Designed for New Players (or characters, depending on price it might be more difficult for them to get) and middle class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8 91% agree for his video.
I have not received an eve mail from CCP regarding this. I have seen the 300+ page thread with no reply by Rise. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:58:55 -
[1473] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. Since when do they do this? Ever? And if such votes are so important, why do you play a game where they never have them? Also people need to learn that feedback != a vote.
How often do they monetize the skill point system?
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 19:59:01 -
[1474] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do. Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. which is why they asked new players, who it was ment for..... Designed for New Players (or characters, depending on price it might be more difficult for them to get) and middle class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8 91% agree for his video. I have not received an eve mail from CCP regarding this. I have seen the 300+ page thread with no reply by Rise.
and i just started Anabuki 3 weeks ago. and was asked my opinion of it during the talk with the GM where they ask how your doing starting off.
also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8 11:51
ViolentDesire wrote:
How often do they monetize the skill point system?
its called XP booster.
try every MMO
or Character Bazaar. which is a monetized based off skill points of a character.
CCP wants people to undock and play.
not play "skill que online"
12:45 (pathetic if your the person who said that) |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:00:58 -
[1475] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do. Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. which is why they asked new players, who it was ment for..... Designed for New Players (or characters, depending on price it might be more difficult for them to get) and middle class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8 91% agree for his video. I have not received an eve mail from CCP regarding this. I have seen the 300+ page thread with no reply by Rise. and i just started Anabuki 3 weeks ago. and was asked my opinion of it during the talk with the GM where they ask how your doing starting off. also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8 11:51
Seems irrelevant. What was relevant was the 300 page thread. It was ignored.
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
158
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:01:21 -
[1476] - Quote
CCP Games posts Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading 15th October 2015 to see the reaction to selling skill points. the result was overwhelmingly negative responses to the idea...
5 days later...
CCP Games Selects Aria SystemsGÇÖ Active Monetization Platform to monetize EVE and EVE Valkyrie with micro transactions of all activities in EVEGÇô 20th October 2015...
I suspect...
Aria salesman whispered sweet nothings in the new boss at CCP's ear... the guy who borrowed 30 mil from his dad and spent it on CCP to gain control of EVE and is now mesmerized by micro transacting EVE to death to "Improve" EVE. LOL.
It is my pleasure to tell you... new CCP head dude that you got scammed by Aria hardcore... the Jita bears are laughing at you. They will all perish as EVE goes down in flames but so will your "reign" over it when the fruits of your betrayal come home to bite you in the ass.
http://crossingzebras.com/is-valkyrie-monetization-coming-to-eve-online/ "The news broke in October (2015) that CCP had selected Aria SystemsGÇÖ active monetization platform for Valkyrie, launching in 2016.
The Icelandic video game producer (CCP), best known for producing EVE Online and its pioneering virtual reality games, performed a comprehensive review of cloud-based billing solutions before choosing to adopt the Aria platform to monetize their entire portfolio of games (EVE online is CCP's only successful game they have no real portfolio.). The first game (besides EVE) to use AriaGÇÖs monetization platform will be EVE: Valkyrie, when it is launched in 2016."
a recent history of CCP games... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCP_Games
In October 2011, following a large controversy over its introduction of micro transactions to the game EVE Online, CCP announced that it would be reducing its staff. As stated in a CCP press release, the layoffs affected about 20% of all world wide jobs within CCP, most in their Atlanta, GA office. These layoffs were mainly of staff related to the development of World of Darkness.
On 28 August 2014, CCP shutdown their San Francisco studio to refocus their efforts on EVE Online. At the same time of the announcement, the CFO, Joe Gallo and CMO, David Reid quit. As of 2015, none of CCP's original founders are still with the company.
The short shortsightedness of this view of EVE... CCP no longer sees EVE as some treasure that will reap steady rewards for decades through honest and simple subscription fees... but a pinata that must be busted open and smashed to get at all the valuable prizes inside... all that money from all those players who invested in EVE that believed their investment would be honored have been betrayed categorically in every way.
More and more it seems all CCP has been doing for a very long time is putting all their efforts into turning EVE into a pay to win micro transacted nightmare.
If they spent half the effort and money they did on actually improving EVE that they did on this Aria scam EVE would be a lot better off.
but these new guys bought EVE out and have control of CCP so they can destroy EVE and no one is going to stop them.
Your going to need to monetize undocking, chat channels and buying plex with isk CCP because there is a good chance most of your player base will not be paying you any real cash ever again.
I suspect they will buy plex with isk as I will to keep playing short term so better ladder plex up to 10bil+ to stop them... from playing EVE... because they refuse to pay you ever again because you want to scam them with rage pinging their credit card at 1-10bucks at a time after they prepaid you months in advance with subscription fees.
because you suck and have no interest in a player paying you for the next twenty years with subscription fees and need to get your micro rocks off with aria because you paid aria to get your micro rocks off and want to so bad your about to explode...
cheers...
and f%*# you CCP.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1881
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:01:40 -
[1477] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. Since when do they do this? Ever? And if such votes are so important, why do you play a game where they never have them? Also people need to learn that feedback != a vote. How often do they monetize the skill point system? Constantly, via the Bazaar, training certs, and most commonly the sub you pay to play the game. Do you think CCP doesn't know people often keep subs while inactive just for SP? |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:02:49 -
[1478] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. Since when do they do this? Ever? And if such votes are so important, why do you play a game where they never have them? Also people need to learn that feedback != a vote. How often do they monetize the skill point system? Constantly, via the Bazaar, training certs, and most commonly the sub you pay to play the game. Do you think CCP doesn't know people often keep subs while inactive just for SP?
I'm talking about this specific change. How often have they implemented it? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1881
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:05:05 -
[1479] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:I'm talking about this specific change. How often have they implemented it? That's not what you asked, nor relevant to the fact that CCP doesn't do votes on changes. That it's this change doesn't make it somehow super special everyone gets treated like an internal decision maker time.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:06:57 -
[1480] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8
14:52
Biggest Positive More people doing more things IN SPACE
aka NOT playing skill que online. and not docked because playing skill que online
so WHAT do you want from EVE
do you want more people playing the game? -aka what CCP is trying to do. (its MMO for a reason. game devs try to catch new players up to older to balance out the playing field. like how GW2 lowered the exp cost to level. or WoW made past expansions free for subscribers. or how SWTOR made leveling more streamlined. or WoT released tier 8 prem tanks)
or do you want more people playign skill que online. stayign docked. and not interacting with the game. (aka game right now) |
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:08:13 -
[1481] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:I'm talking about this specific change. How often have they implemented it? That's not what you asked, nor relevant to the fact that CCP doesn't do votes on changes. That it's this change doesn't make it somehow super special everyone gets treated like an internal decision maker time.
That is what I'm asking. If you think not, you are not interpreting correctly. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:16:50 -
[1482] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. Since when do they do this? Ever? And if such votes are so important, why do you play a game where they never have them? Also people need to learn that feedback != a vote. How often do they monetize the skill point system?
I don't understand why they would need to hear your opinion about how they want to earn their money? what company would let their customers vote about if they can implement a certain way to earn money? Has your bank ever let you vote, before they change how they earn money (introducing extra charges on credit cards etc)? No, they do not. I don't understand why computer game companies has to have another code of business honor, than other companies?
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:23:11 -
[1483] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money. Since when do they do this? Ever? And if such votes are so important, why do you play a game where they never have them? Also people need to learn that feedback != a vote. How often do they monetize the skill point system? I don't understand why they would need to hear your opinion about how they want to earn their money? what company would let their customers vote about if they can implement a certain way to earn money? Has your bank ever let you vote, before they change how they earn money (introducing extra charges on credit cards etc)? No, they do not. I don't understand why computer game companies has to have another code of business honor, than other companies?
Memphis Baas wrote:Quite a few posts in this thread are pro- this change, and I'm guessing Reddit and the internet at large aren't quite as against this as you. So why do you assume they aren't listening to player feedback? In addition, forums have about 1000 posters; the only way to reach the 30,000+ in-game is to implement this feature and see what they do.
The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
143
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:48:18 -
[1484] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Oreb Wing wrote: You make them too expensive and CCP will have gained nothing, hardly helped any new player and have nothing but the heaped on ridicule of being greedy stuck on every wall.
On the flip side, if they price them too low, or ' affordable', as you put it, you will see exactly what CSM Mike, and others, have said. Except he went furthest. The rich will pull them off market with the highest buy orders and use them strategically in-game to buff their alt capital numbers, as it would be much cheaper to make sure no one can oppose you than offer SRP. Then noobs will rely on friends to fill up their purchased extractors because even the bazaar became a wasteland.
They need to not be 'affordable'. The price point you suggest for a full extractor should be what an empty one should come near to being.
This makes no sense whatsoever, even on its own questionable terms. "Affordable" is not some kind of absolute number, it is relative to the person and their financial situation. The ISK rich will do what you suggest whether the filled injectors costs 300M, 500M, 1B or even more ISK, as long as they see some value in such an investment. They can afford it, and they will if it furthers their agenda. You cannot price them out of the market, at least not with a remotely sane price for the extractor. But you can price "newbies" out of the market, or for that matter mid-level players, or indeed anybody who is neither member of a corp owning an ISK faucet nor embracing grinding as their way of life. If you raise the price too high, make it "not affordable" for most, then the only action you will see is precisely the 1% of EVE recruiting an alt army, or the like. Not only is that a really dumb move concerning overall game play and balance, it isn't even financially attractive. The 1% are that, the 1%. And maybe they buy a good many alts each, but once they are done with that, they will be done with that. There is no steady cash flow in this. The only thing that makes sense here is to make these extractors affordable. Of course, what the filled injectors will cost is a function of the market. But CCP can manipulate the minimum cost at least, and really should keep it low to see lots of trade and usage of these. Finally, the idea that the ISK rich of EVE can somehow "suck dry" the SP market is just plain silly. Of course, they can buy out all SP injectors that come to market initially. But if they do this, then the prices for the injectors will be very high on the market (demand outstripping supply). It takes about 2.5 months to set up a SP farm from scratch (the time it takes to get a new character from their initial 400k to 5.5M, ready for extraction). If the prices remain high for a few weeks, lots of people will start building up SP farms. So within about 3 months you will see this first big wave of farmed SP supply hit the market. If the ISK rich insists on buying this SP as fast as it arrives, then you can bet that people will expand their SP farms, and ever more people will continuously try to get in on this enormous ISK flow. Eventually the ever rising supply will overwhelm the demand, eventually the ISK rich will go broke if they continue buying. It's just not possible to buy up a supply that is not only renewable, but renewable at essentially arbitrary speeds (you can always add more alts to a SP farm). At that point the market would crash, and we would be swimming in an incredible oversupply of injectors, probably being sold off way below cost...
By the end here, you just proved me right. If you cannot see how low cost injectors can artificially inflate PLEX in the short term, then actually DEVALUATE plex in the long run, then I daresay you have not seen as far ahead as I have.
All our would take is a handful of nerds that think it's fun to make a game out of selling the SP they accumulated. They could destroy Eve without ever firing a single missile. Industrialists that never leave station need only plug the best learning implants and sell the injectors as an easy side project. Now add the 1% over and on top of that.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:49:43 -
[1485] - Quote
Scott Dracov wrote:CCP Games posts Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading 15th October 2015 to see the reaction to selling skill points. the result was overwhelmingly negative responses to the idea... 5 days later...CCP Games Selects Aria SystemsGÇÖ Active Monetization Platform to monetize EVE and EVE Valkyrie with micro transactions of all activities in EVEGÇô 20th October 2015... I suspect...Aria salesman whispered sweet nothings in the new boss at CCP's ear... the guy who borrowed 30 mil from his dad and spent it on CCP to gain control of EVE and is now mesmerized by micro transacting EVE to death to "Improve" EVE. LOL. It is my pleasure to tell you... new CCP head dude that you got scammed by Aria hardcore... the Jita bears are laughing at you. They will all perish as EVE goes down in flames but so will your "reign" over it when the fruits of your betrayal come home to bite you in the ass. http://crossingzebras.com/is-valkyrie-monetization-coming-to-eve-online/ "The news broke in October (2015) that CCP had selected Aria SystemsGÇÖ active monetization platform for Valkyrie, launching in 2016.
The Icelandic video game producer (CCP), best known for producing EVE Online and its pioneering virtual reality games, performed a comprehensive review of cloud-based billing solutions before choosing to adopt the Aria platform to monetize their entire portfolio of games (EVE online is CCP's only successful game they have no real portfolio.). The first game (besides EVE) to use AriaGÇÖs monetization platform will be EVE: Valkyrie, when it is launched in 2016."a recent history of CCP games...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCP_Games In October 2011, following a large controversy over its introduction of micro transactions to the game EVE Online, CCP announced that it would be reducing its staff. As stated in a CCP press release, the layoffs affected about 20% of all world wide jobs within CCP, most in their Atlanta, GA office. These layoffs were mainly of staff related to the development of World of Darkness. On 28 August 2014, CCP shutdown their San Francisco studio to refocus their efforts on EVE Online. At the same time of the announcement, the CFO, Joe Gallo and CMO, David Reid quit. As of 2015, none of CCP's original founders are still with the company.The short shortsightedness of this view of EVE... CCP no longer sees EVE as some treasure that will reap steady rewards for decades through honest and simple subscription fees... but a pinata that must be busted open and smashed to get at all the valuable prizes inside... all that money from all those players who invested in EVE that believed their investment would be honored have been betrayed categorically in every way. More and more it seems all CCP has been doing for a very long time is putting all their efforts into turning EVE into a pay to win micro transacted nightmare. If they spent half the effort and money they did on actually improving EVE that they did on this Aria scam EVE would be a lot better off. but these new guys bought EVE out and have control of CCP so they can destroy EVE and no one is going to stop them. Your going to need to monetize undocking, chat channels and buying plex with isk CCP because there is a good chance most of your player base will not be paying you any real cash ever again. I suspect they will buy plex with isk as I will to keep playing short term so better ladder plex up to 10bil+ to stop them... from playing EVE... because they refuse to pay you ever again because you want to scam them with rage pinging their credit card at 1-10bucks at a time after they prepaid you months in advance with subscription fees. because you suck and have no interest in a player paying you for the next twenty years with subscription fees and need to get your micro rocks off with aria because you paid aria to get your micro rocks off and want to so bad your about to explode... cheers... and f%*# you CCP.
other good read
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
The management response was elusive. In June 2011, senior producer Arnar Gylfason delivered an ambiguous statement, comparing the pixelated monocles to $1000 jeans and questioning whether people should buy clothes in real life at all. Eve subscriptions declined sharply and precipitously, and there were actual in-game riots in protest.
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. ... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1881
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:49:44 -
[1486] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:I'm talking about this specific change. How often have they implemented it? That's not what you asked, nor relevant to the fact that CCP doesn't do votes on changes. That it's this change doesn't make it somehow super special everyone gets treated like an internal decision maker time. That is what I'm asking. If you think not, you are not interpreting correctly. I'm only reading what was written, a clear accusation of ccp not wanting feedback despite requesting it because they didn't put it to a vote, which they never do. You're clearly stating "they don't want to know or discuss" by stating, erroneously, that a vote is the only means of providing feedback.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:50:09 -
[1487] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:Oreb Wing wrote: You make them too expensive and CCP will have gained nothing, hardly helped any new player and have nothing but the heaped on ridicule of being greedy stuck on every wall.
On the flip side, if they price them too low, or ' affordable', as you put it, you will see exactly what CSM Mike, and others, have said. Except he went furthest. The rich will pull them off market with the highest buy orders and use them strategically in-game to buff their alt capital numbers, as it would be much cheaper to make sure no one can oppose you than offer SRP. Then noobs will rely on friends to fill up their purchased extractors because even the bazaar became a wasteland.
They need to not be 'affordable'. The price point you suggest for a full extractor should be what an empty one should come near to being.
This makes no sense whatsoever, even on its own questionable terms. "Affordable" is not some kind of absolute number, it is relative to the person and their financial situation. The ISK rich will do what you suggest whether the filled injectors costs 300M, 500M, 1B or even more ISK, as long as they see some value in such an investment. They can afford it, and they will if it furthers their agenda. You cannot price them out of the market, at least not with a remotely sane price for the extractor. But you can price "newbies" out of the market, or for that matter mid-level players, or indeed anybody who is neither member of a corp owning an ISK faucet nor embracing grinding as their way of life. If you raise the price too high, make it "not affordable" for most, then the only action you will see is precisely the 1% of EVE recruiting an alt army, or the like. Not only is that a really dumb move concerning overall game play and balance, it isn't even financially attractive. The 1% are that, the 1%. And maybe they buy a good many alts each, but once they are done with that, they will be done with that. There is no steady cash flow in this. The only thing that makes sense here is to make these extractors affordable. Of course, what the filled injectors will cost is a function of the market. But CCP can manipulate the minimum cost at least, and really should keep it low to see lots of trade and usage of these. Finally, the idea that the ISK rich of EVE can somehow "suck dry" the SP market is just plain silly. Of course, they can buy out all SP injectors that come to market initially. But if they do this, then the prices for the injectors will be very high on the market (demand outstripping supply). It takes about 2.5 months to set up a SP farm from scratch (the time it takes to get a new character from their initial 400k to 5.5M, ready for extraction). If the prices remain high for a few weeks, lots of people will start building up SP farms. So within about 3 months you will see this first big wave of farmed SP supply hit the market. If the ISK rich insists on buying this SP as fast as it arrives, then you can bet that people will expand their SP farms, and ever more people will continuously try to get in on this enormous ISK flow. Eventually the ever rising supply will overwhelm the demand, eventually the ISK rich will go broke if they continue buying. It's just not possible to buy up a supply that is not only renewable, but renewable at essentially arbitrary speeds (you can always add more alts to a SP farm). At that point the market would crash, and we would be swimming in an incredible oversupply of injectors, probably being sold off way below cost... By the end here, you just proved me right. If you cannot see how low cost injectors can artificially inflate PLEX in the short term, then actually DEVALUATE plex in the long run, then I daresay you have not seen as far ahead as I have. All our would take is a handful of nerds that think it's fun to make a game out of selling the SP they accumulated. They could destroy Eve without ever firing a single missile. Industrialists that never leave station need only plug the best learning implants and sell the injectors as an easy side project. Now add the 1% over and on top of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8
14:52
so WHAT do you want from EVE
do you want more people playing the game? -aka what CCP is trying to do.
or do you want more people playign skill que online. stayign docked. and not interacting with the game. (aka game right now) |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:53:26 -
[1488] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. Most likely only the ones strongly for or against would vote. The ones who don't care and will not leave the game if it is implemented, would most likely not vote. As the ones that don't care counts in CCPs favor regarding implementing SP trading (As they are not against and would not leave), you would bias the survey. By omitting the ones who don't care if it is implemented, the people against it would end up as overrepresentated. It would be %con vs. %pro, instead of the more relevant %con vs. %pro + %neutral. I understand why you woul want that as it is biased in your favour, but scientific it is not.
This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:55:13 -
[1489] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. Most likely only the ones strongly for or against would vote. The ones who don't care and will not leave the game if it is implemented, would most likely not vote. As the ones that don't care counts in CCPs favor regarding implementing SP trading (As they are not against and would not leave), you would bias the survey. By omitting the ones who don't care if it is implemented, the people against it would end up as overrepresentated. It would be %con vs. %pro, instead of the more relevant %con vs. %pro + %neutral. I understand why you woul want that as it is biased in your favour, but scientific it is not. This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small. and including how many people have alts that would use the alts to gain more votes for their opinion |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 20:57:58 -
[1490] - Quote
this is completely different though. As that was gold ammo, classical pay2win, and this is not. And it will not matter how many times you post this misconception, because the sp trading is coming regardless if you want it or not.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:01:34 -
[1491] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. No. "Do you want SP trading as currently proposed?" "Yes"/"No". That would give a clear answer.
Quote:This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small. A 300 page thread, albeit with a fair amount of trolling, is not small. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:04:31 -
[1492] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote: No. "Do you want SP trading as currently proposed?" "Yes"/"No". That would give a clear answer.
did you read my post at all? Because I explained in simple words, why that would be biased and not give you the answer you want.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:05:14 -
[1493] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. Most likely only the ones strongly for or against would vote. The ones who don't care and will not leave the game if it is implemented, would most likely not vote. As the ones that don't care counts in CCPs favor regarding implementing SP trading (As they are not against and would not leave), you would bias the survey. By omitting the ones who don't care if it is implemented, the people against it would end up as overrepresentated. It would be %con vs. %pro, instead of the more relevant %con vs. %pro + %neutral. I understand why you woul want that as it is biased in your favour, but scientific it is not. This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small. and including how many people have alts that would use the alts to gain more votes for their opinion
That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:06:28 -
[1494] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. No. "Do you want SP trading as currently proposed?" "Yes"/"No". That would give a clear answer. Quote:This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small. A 300 page thread, albeit with a fair amount of trolling, is not small. 300 page thread, where the negative nancies can spam posts to make themselves seem like theres more of them.
so....no
reddit's vote which shows how many upvote to downvote, regardless of how many times 1 person spams. is better. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:08:31 -
[1495] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:
That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts.
yes, but the silent minority who would not care or be against, would not vote. They would count as pro SP trading (they are not against), from CCPs point of view. If they did the vote like you say, they fix their own survey against themselves. Who would do that?
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:10:39 -
[1496] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: No. "Do you want SP trading as currently proposed?" "Yes"/"No". That would give a clear answer.
did you read my post at all? Because I explained in simple words, why that would be biased and not give you the answer you want.
Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know". |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:11:27 -
[1497] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. Most likely only the ones strongly for or against would vote. The ones who don't care and will not leave the game if it is implemented, would most likely not vote. As the ones that don't care counts in CCPs favor regarding implementing SP trading (As they are not against and would not leave), you would bias the survey. By omitting the ones who don't care if it is implemented, the people against it would end up as overrepresentated. It would be %con vs. %pro, instead of the more relevant %con vs. %pro + %neutral. I understand why you woul want that as it is biased in your favour, but scientific it is not. This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small. and including how many people have alts that would use the alts to gain more votes for their opinion That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts.
or. CCP could look at Reddit, see how many more upvoted than downvoted.
they could compare these numbers to facebook, how many likes it recieved.
they could then look at announcement videos that explain it from multiple points of view like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXowkNfyN8 and compare the upvotes to downvotes.
and see if the data matches out on all.
which they do.
88%-92% upvotes on reddit with a similar number of likes on facebook (to the total number of votes in reddit) and 92% likes on this video (and similar videos)
the result? across the board it seems like a similar number (92%) are in support. while a similar number (8-12%) are not.
now if reddit had 40% upvote. and youtube had 92%. then that would show there is some conflict.
but as it is. right now, 92% is the common number they seem to be sharing.
so, the majority votes. for skill injectors. and the 8% can be as vocal as they want. but in the end. they still 8%. even if they post 10x as often as a person who supports.
there are college level classes for polling methods. you should try one. its an interesting course. and worth 3 credits. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1881
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:15:05 -
[1498] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:By the end here, you just proved me right. If you cannot see how low cost injectors can artificially inflate PLEX in the short term, then actually DEVALUATE plex in the long run, then I daresay you have not seen as far ahead as I have.
All our would take is a handful of nerds that think it's fun to make a game out of selling the SP they accumulated. They could destroy Eve without ever firing a single missile. Industrialists that never leave station need only plug the best learning implants and sell the injectors as an easy side project. Now add the 1% over and on top of that. None of you conclusions are prevented by a high extractor price point. It just increases the cost of the initial extractor. If the SP sells for more than the price of the extractor those undocking industrialist farming SP with +5's won't care is extractors cost 100AUR, 1,000 or 10,000. That's an inevitability, and a non-destructive one. Having SP be accessible can't and won't kill Eve.
Long term devaluation of PLEX is actually positive for everyone but those buying from CCP as well. There's really no gain from a high extractor point save for CCP getting more money per unit.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:16:31 -
[1499] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts.
yes, but the silent minority who would not care or be against, would not vote. They would count as pro SP trading (they are not against), from CCPs point of view. If they did the vote like you say, they fix their own survey against themselves. Who would do that?
I disagree with that assessment. It is more honest than reddit. We also dont know how many would vote, it might result in a clear yes/no. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:18:22 -
[1500] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts.
yes, but the silent minority who would not care or be against, would not vote. They would count as pro SP trading (they are not against), from CCPs point of view. If they did the vote like you say, they fix their own survey against themselves. Who would do that? I disagree with that assessment. It is more honest than reddit. We also dont know how many would vote, it might result in a clear yes/no. instead of putting it in 1 place(IE in game), they can get the feeling from people who are considering playing as well(potential new players) and people who may be inactive (cause skill que online only needs you to log in once a month) and active players.
there are college courses for polling methods. go take one =/
reddit says 88-92% support similar number of likes on facebook to reddit and videos talking about it that support it get 92% likes to dislikes.
so 92% support. Skill Injector is approved |
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:20:08 -
[1501] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: The issue was if they wanted to know. They dont. If they did, they could find out. This is in line with refusing to discuss in the 300 page thread.
Well, not really. It would be hard to know what people really want from that vote. Most likely only the ones strongly for or against would vote. The ones who don't care and will not leave the game if it is implemented, would most likely not vote. As the ones that don't care counts in CCPs favor regarding implementing SP trading (As they are not against and would not leave), you would bias the survey. By omitting the ones who don't care if it is implemented, the people against it would end up as overrepresentated. It would be %con vs. %pro, instead of the more relevant %con vs. %pro + %neutral. I understand why you woul want that as it is biased in your favour, but scientific it is not. This is of course without considering how ridiculous it would be to get everyone to vote for something this small. and including how many people have alts that would use the alts to gain more votes for their opinion That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts. or. CCP could look at Reddit, see how many more upvoted than downvoted. they could compare these numbers to facebook, how many likes it recieved.
Or they could send an eve mail and take part in the discussion and maybe offer a compromise. They selectively use the sources that support their position and ignore everything else. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:22:50 -
[1502] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:
Or they could send an eve mail and take part in the discussion and maybe offer a compromise. They selectively use the sources that support their position and ignore everything else.
LOL sendd an EVE mail, and then read EVERY SINGLE RESPONSE.
RIP THE INTERNS. THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE.
they did make this thread to discuss comprises (of which the ones said were limiting to a few per 6 months, or capping out at a level of SP, or keeping for new player tutorials.)
but. the thread had negative nancy doomcallers who flooded it with spam calls of greed, end of the game, and corruption.
so they likely decided "its the same 5 people spamming over and over. lets just go to other sources that don't have someone's finger on the copy paste key"
after all, its hard to have a conversation to reach a compromise when theres a 3rd person throwing crap at you in between each line of dialogue |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:25:46 -
[1503] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts.
yes, but the silent minority who would not care or be against, would not vote. They would count as pro SP trading (they are not against), from CCPs point of view. If they did the vote like you say, they fix their own survey against themselves. Who would do that? I disagree with that assessment. It is more honest than reddit. We also dont know how many would vote, it might result in a clear yes/no. instead of putting it in 1 place(IE in game), they can get the feeling from people who are considering playing as well(potential new players) and people who may be inactive (cause skill que online only needs you to log in once a month)and active players. there are college courses for polling methods. go take one =/ reddit says 88-92% support similar number of likes on facebook to reddit and videos talking about it that support it get 92% likes to dislikes. so 92% support. Skill Injector is approved
It is reasonable to ask the current players. The reason they dont is because they likely know already. Facebook and reddit upvote pretty much anything.
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:27:34 -
[1504] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote: Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".
You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value.
But I agree with you, that they don't want to know. Like I wrote. I think it is fine though, that they put up the small play, for the people in the community who needs to feel like their voice is important enough to be heard.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:27:36 -
[1505] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
Or they could send an eve mail and take part in the discussion and maybe offer a compromise. They selectively use the sources that support their position and ignore everything else.
LOL sendd an EVE mail, and then read EVERY SINGLE RESPONSE. RIP THE INTERNS. THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE. they did make this thread to discuss comprises (of which the ones said were limiting to a few per 6 months, or capping out at a level of SP, or keeping for new player tutorials.) but. the thread had negative nancy doomcallers who flooded it with spam calls of greed, end of the game, and corruption. so they likely decided "its the same 5 people spamming over and over. lets just go to other sources that don't have someone's finger on the copy paste key" after all, its hard to have a conversation to reach a compromise when theres a 3rd person throwing crap at you in between each line of dialogue
No, it would contain a link to a page where people could vote.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:29:44 -
[1506] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:It is reasonable to ask the current players. They did ask back in October.
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:33:33 -
[1507] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
That would be irrelevant given that reddit is used to argue this being supported. But if that was a concern, CCP could likely filter out a significant number of alts.
yes, but the silent minority who would not care or be against, would not vote. They would count as pro SP trading (they are not against), from CCPs point of view. If they did the vote like you say, they fix their own survey against themselves. Who would do that? I disagree with that assessment. It is more honest than reddit. We also dont know how many would vote, it might result in a clear yes/no. instead of putting it in 1 place(IE in game), they can get the feeling from people who are considering playing as well(potential new players) and people who may be inactive (cause skill que online only needs you to log in once a month)and active players. there are college courses for polling methods. go take one =/ reddit says 88-92% support similar number of likes on facebook to reddit and videos talking about it that support it get 92% likes to dislikes. so 92% support. Skill Injector is approved It is reasonable to ask the current players. The reason they dont is because they likely know already. Facebook and reddit upvote pretty much anything. THEY DID ASK CURRENT PLAYERS
fanfest was positive to it. they announced it on main page and launcher. plus made this thread (but thread died to 5 people spamming doomcry an corruption insults over and over and over)
there are massive EVE communities on reddit. who are also current players. (and they don't upvote anything. trust me. go tell Wargaming to nerf the IS-3 in WoT on reddit and get ready for a hellstorm to come your way)
facebook has more social communities, which are major for spread the word to people who might not notice the above ways. and has current players
youtube is the biggest form of advertisement honestly, and lets people converse in different styles. and the videos i've seen explaining it (i just post my favorite) all have vast supporting statistics.
the difference between reddit, facebook, youtube, and the forums. is reddit, facebook, and youtube have more people who notice them.
and remember. skill que online only requires you to log in once per month (or 3 months) so you'll get more peoples attention from reddit, youtube, and facebook. than you would if you ask in game where people aren't even undocking or logging in because the skill que to use something is weeks or months long.
CCP wants people to PLAY. undock and PLAY
they don't want people to sub, and then leave an forget because skill que online doesn't encourage people to log on.
and remember. fanfest was largely positive to it. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:33:44 -
[1508] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:It is reasonable to ask the current players. They did ask back in October.
Our conversation is over. It is implied that the "answer" they get should be able to affect the decision. It is unlikely that it ever could. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:36:42 -
[1509] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:It is reasonable to ask the current players. They did ask back in October. Our conversation is over. It is implied that the "answer" they get should be able to affect the decision. It is unlikely that it ever could. it did affect the descision
for higher total SP captains. they now get more SP from injectors than was originally planned. why? because alot of PLAYERS wanted it that way |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:37:15 -
[1510] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".
You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value.
It is not impossible to have a poll on this. It does not have to be perfect.
I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.
|
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:38:25 -
[1511] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".
You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value. But I agree with you, that they don't want to know. Like I wrote. I think it is fine though, that they put up the small play, for the people in the community who needs to feel like their voice is important enough to be heard.
people have been playing since alpha/beta and the old vet do have the right to say what they feel as they had to wait out many months to train skills. we all have the right to say our views to CCP if they read them
Always have been a done deal from the word go. not sure if you have alts just sero Hita kinda a new toon 2015 |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:39:56 -
[1512] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:It is reasonable to ask the current players. They did ask back in October. Our conversation is over. It is implied that the "answer" they get should be able to affect the decision. It is unlikely that it ever could. it did affect the descision for higher total SP captains. they now get more SP from injectors than was originally planned. why? because alot of PLAYERS wanted it that way
I don't see how that conclusion could have been reached based on that thread. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:40:56 -
[1513] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:It is reasonable to ask the current players. They did ask back in October. Our conversation is over. It is implied that the "answer" they get should be able to affect the decision. It is unlikely that it ever could. The answer did affect the decision, as shown by changes in the details of the plan. That's not the same as deferring the decision to a popular vote.
ViolentDesire wrote:I don't see how that conclusion could have been reached based on that thread. Then you didn't read as much as others did and missed those claiming the plan did too much to disenfranchise older players with the high SP penalties. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:41:46 -
[1514] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".
You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value. It is not impossible to have a poll on this. It does not have to be perfect. I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply. this is a poll http://i.imgur.com/lgXNmsG.png
a poll that is 92% positive to it
this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/o1k1Pxs.png
that is 88% positive to it
this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/Rflvo75.png
that is 92% positive to it
you know what a poll is right? it doesnt need to be on EVE's main page. because not many visit the main page. or read the launcher.
and people who CARE about the topic, have gone to these. and voted.
they not hard to find. just type eve skill injector to google. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:46:18 -
[1515] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:
I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.
I agree on this part. Personally I can understand though how one can loose the motivation to answer (also the very good points), when you see the tone in which some people reply. It is not optimal to ignore the threads, but I do understand it from CCPs point of view, when you are just trying to do your job, and is met with sometimes extreme negativity.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:49:34 -
[1516] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".
You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value. It is not impossible to have a poll on this. It does not have to be perfect. I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply. this is a poll http://i.imgur.com/lgXNmsG.png a poll that is 92% positive to it this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/o1k1Pxs.png that is 88% positive to it this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/Rflvo75.png that is 92% positive to it you know what a poll is right? it doesnt need to be on EVE's main page. because not many visit the main page. or read the launcher. and people who CARE about the topic, have gone to these. and voted. they not hard to find. just type eve skill injector to google.
Anyone can upvote on reddit. If the accuracy of the poll is of any concern, Reddit is invalid by default. Unless there is massive confirmation bias.
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:50:33 -
[1517] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:They have a name for the in-game item to utilize this feature, it will happen. Resistance is futile.
+1 CCP
ps: Can I have your (skillpoint-)stuff?
just like I said before, kick the dead horse a few more times, contract me your stuff and say hello to SP packs |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:50:44 -
[1518] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:this is a poll http://i.imgur.com/lgXNmsG.png a poll that is 92% positive to it this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/o1k1Pxs.png that is 88% positive to it this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/Rflvo75.png that is 92% positive to it you know what a poll is right? it doesnt need to be on EVE's main page. because not many visit the main page. or read the launcher. (even less when u remember SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS YOU MONTHLY) and people who CARE about the topic, have gone to these. and voted. they not hard to find. just type eve skill injector to google.
these surveys have very small sample sizes though, and seems hardly representative of the community. I would be very carefull with interpreting too much from these.
^edit- Plus if you can vote more times, it really becomes dangerous to interprete considering only 200-300 people voted in some of these.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:51:04 -
[1519] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: Disagree. But even if it did, it would be better than what we have now. So it comes back not wanting to know. Probably because they do "know".
You can disagree all you want, it does not invalidate my point. And a faulty survey is faulty. There is no "better than what we have now", there is only reliable data and unreliable data. Your survey would paint a wrong picture of the truth, hence has no value. It is not impossible to have a poll on this. It does not have to be perfect. I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply. this is a poll http://i.imgur.com/lgXNmsG.png a poll that is 92% positive to it this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/o1k1Pxs.png that is 88% positive to it this is also a poll http://i.imgur.com/Rflvo75.png that is 92% positive to it you know what a poll is right? it doesnt need to be on EVE's main page. because not many visit the main page. or read the launcher. and people who CARE about the topic, have gone to these. and voted. they not hard to find. just type eve skill injector to google. Anyone can upvote on reddit. If the accuracy of the poll is of any concern, Reddit is invalid by default. Unless there is massive confirmation bias.
which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive. |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:52:55 -
[1520] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.
I agree on this part. Personally I can understand though how one can loose the motivation to answer (also the very good points), when you see the tone in which some people reply. It is not optimal to ignore the threads, but I do understand it from CCPs point of view, when you are just trying to do your job, and is met with sometimes extreme negativity.
By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past. |
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:55:23 -
[1521] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 21:56:05 -
[1522] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:
I would prefer if they took part in the discussion and argued their positions. I remember at least a few solid points from the previous thread that deserved a reply.
I agree on this part. Personally I can understand though how one can loose the motivation to answer (also the very good points), when you see the tone in which some people reply. It is not optimal to ignore the threads, but I do understand it from CCPs point of view, when you are just trying to do your job, and is met with sometimes extreme negativity. By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.
CCP is at fault even dev don't even reply to the dev blog. we are going to be down this road again when CCP tell us the cost of them which is going to be funny again as going to get more Negs again |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:06:02 -
[1523] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. valid eve accounts
aka, alts
which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE
OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH |
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:23:22 -
[1524] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. valid eve accounts aka, alts which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH
if they can ban "every" account that a botter owns, they can certainly filter this. Even if they didnt, it would be much better than reddit/facebook where everyone can vote. |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:24:50 -
[1525] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. valid eve accounts aka, alts which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH If they can ban "every" account that a botter owns, they can certainly filter this. Even if they didnt, it would be much better than reddit/facebook where everyone can vote. potential future players are needed
and again, skill que online is not a good way to get people's attention
3rd party sites that people ACTUALLY FREQUENT is better than the EVE site or in game where skill que online means people don't log in often. |
saltrock0000
DottCom
118
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:29:12 -
[1526] - Quote
Just read the upcomming patch notes and where I agree about the diminishing returns in regards SP I think there should be a addition.
When removing SP and then reapplying it to the same character you should get 100% of the SP removed and not a diminishing amount. This would allow people to get rid of unwanted skills and reapply the SP more appropriatly. Keep the diminishing returns from SP from other sources, but not form the same character.
\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:35:07 -
[1527] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote: By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.
Well, a lot of people were plainly rejecting the idea. Some were threatening to unsup. Some of the posters, like Suede (in this thread) got stuck in 2011, and are passive agressively threatening CCP that this will end like the summer of rage, eventhough it is pretty clear that ship has sailed. Do you honestly think this is constructive and worth listening to? The only thing that could have lend you the ears of the devs, would have been an discussion on how to adjust their current idea, so it is easier for some to swallow. But that did not happen. Rejecting an idea or wanting a rollback (like the new overviewicons) is not civil, but quite aggressive, like all ultimatums are.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:37:51 -
[1528] - Quote
saltrock0000 wrote:Just read the upcomming patch notes and where I agree about the diminishing returns in regards SP I think there should be a addition.
When removing SP and then reapplying it to the same character you should get 100% of the SP removed and not a diminishing amount. This would allow people to get rid of unwanted skills and reapply the SP more appropriatly. Keep the diminishing returns from SP from other sources, but not form the same character.
I am actually okay with that re-skilling would be with dimissive returns, choices and consequences etc.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 22:46:18 -
[1529] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. valid eve accounts aka, alts which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH If they can ban "every" account that a botter owns, they can certainly filter this. Even if they didnt, it would be much better than reddit/facebook where everyone can vote. potential future players are needed and again, skill que online is not a good way to get people's attention 3rd party sites that people ACTUALLY FREQUENT is better than the EVE site or in game where skill que online means people don't log in often. as only people who frequent eve site or online are likely people who have SP already. and thus wouldnt benefit much from this.
Reddit is mostly goons + some other alliances that are over enthusiastic about eve. Everybody with an eve account has an email registered with it. There is clearly more accuracy there.
|
ViolentDesire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:01:46 -
[1530] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:ViolentDesire wrote: By ignoring the thread, they arguably caused that themselves. I thought it was more civil than many shitstorms in the past.
Well, a lot of people were plainly rejecting the idea. Some were threatening to unsup. Some of the posters, like Suede (in this thread) got stuck in 2011, and are passive agressively threatening CCP that this will end like the summer of rage, eventhough it is pretty clear that ship has sailed. Do you honestly think this is constructive and worth listening to?
The rejection is the reason they should discuss. The problem with "constructive" is that it is often used to dismiss strong arguments. I doubt anybody expected CCP to reply to every post.
Quote:The only thing that could have lend you the ears of the devs, would have been an discussion on how to adjust their current idea, so it is easier for some to swallow. But that did not happen. Rejecting an idea or wanting a rollback (like the new overviewicons) is not civil, but quite aggressive, like all ultimatums are.
It is possible that people didnt want it, and that must be a valid opinion. Its ultimately on CCP to offer a compromise, but the relevant dev didnt post once.
|
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2008
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:15:57 -
[1531] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. valid eve accounts aka, alts which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH
If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game
You can play eve wiyh any level of skills, with minimal skills you can take part in any of the starter careers but you will lose in pvp often. This would be playing the game . However now you can pay for skills to win more often. This is what bothers people.
A note on polls: they can be very very wrong. In the last election in the UK every poll said it would be a hung parliament. Every single one, without exception. They were all wrong and the party they all said would come second actually had a clear win.
Polls mean very very little depending on how they are taken.
Whether this change will help the game remains to be seen ( I think not but everyone is entitled to there own view). Charging new players another PLEX or two in SP packs is definitely not my idea of helping them though. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:16:43 -
[1532] - Quote
ViolentDesire wrote:
The rejection is the reason they should discuss. The problem with "constructive" is that it is often used to dismiss strong arguments. I doubt anybody expected CCP to reply to every post.
It is possible that people didnt want it, and that must be a valid opinion. Its ultimately on CCP to offer a compromise, but the relevant dev didnt post once.
So an ultimatum, like I said. You try to play reasonable, but you are not really. They have to drop it, or no alternative. You may not believe me, but it is your own fault they will not listen to you. Like in the real world, communicating like that often gives you nothing (like this thread has proven), as your hardline point comes across as unsympathetic and non-relatable. You can continue to be extremely bitter, if you want. Sp trading will be out in 12 days, so good luck with that. I will stop this discussion now, as we will not agree and we are just running in circles. You have your right to have your opinion, as they have to ignore it.
o7
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:27:16 -
[1533] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game
CCP doesn't agree
which is why skill injector is becoming a thing.
CCP wants people to undock and play more. and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock.
|
Scott Dracov
Isogen 5
163
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:37:35 -
[1534] - Quote
Upon further reflection of the total deceit and contempt CCP shows to its customers I have decided not to bother buying PLEX with isk as it is an exercise in futility.
The EVE I signed up for does not exist at this point and maybe it hasn't since 2011 or before.
The probability that CCP has been seeding the in game PLEX market since 2011 with large volumes of PLEX to keep easily affordable PLEX on the market to make EVE a free to play game supported by micro transactions is pretty likely given how much of a hard on they have for this pay to win micro BS.
Why do you think they get so bent out of shape if anyone ladders and inflates plex prices? do you think such a volatile and high demand commodity would stay at such level prices without being manipulated?
There's a lot of bad players in EVE but the amount of Bads needed to keep the numbers of PLEX on the market at all times at such easily attainable prices says to me CCP is likely giving pretty much everyone in EVE a free ride if they want it.
I'm sure enough pay sub fees still to keep the place afloat but the reality is more complicated I suspect.
ALTS are everywhere.
even people paying for multiple subs are buying plex with isk to multi train alts... lots of alts. literally many players have so many alts trained with plex they bought from isk that if they wanted to they would never pay to play eve again but chances are they do anyway.
So really who has actually been hoodwinked in a bigger way... people that think legions of bads buy millions worth of plex per month to finance legions of alts or mains or is the whole thing a house of cards to begin with with no one actually buying such ridiculous volumes of PLEX at all and CCP keeping people in game simply to sell them pay 2 win micro items with aria?
Either way I stopped caring when I learned about Aria. The only thing truly clear to me is pay 2 win micro crap was the goal from 2011 on and nothing else has mattered to CCP but micro BS ever since.
|
Zoe Jackes
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:57:56 -
[1535] - Quote
didn't you say that twenty times already. Jeez m8 |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2009
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:03:40 -
[1536] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game
CCP doesn't agree which is why skill injector is becoming a thing. CCP wants people to undock and play more. and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock.
CCP wants more money, they are a business so no problem there, just don't dress it up as for the new players... |
Yaasmine
Touch of Death
10
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:10:24 -
[1537] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Yaasmine wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game
CCP doesn't agree which is why skill injector is becoming a thing. CCP wants people to undock and play more. and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock. CCP wants more money, they are a business so no problem there, just don't dress it up as for the new players... then don't dress it up as game is dead or going to die.
or purely a move for money.
money is a motive for any business. but this isn't just for money(otherwise it wouldnt be sellable for isk), they trying to fix some issues in game at the same time.
and seeing as how its encouraging people to play, rather than set a que and logg off for a month. it is helping new players.
a new player might never earn enough to buy a skill injector. but having the motive of saving up for one, causes them to play the game, and thus stay engaged as they discover new things, and improve the game for others by having more people in the universe.
if they manage to earn enough for a skill injector, or get donated one by a corporation thats looking to recruit. then thats a major help for them.
so its not just a money move. its also a move to improve the game. |
Algarion Getz
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:13:33 -
[1538] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:[...]
so WHAT do you want from EVE
do you want more people playing the game? -aka what CCP is trying to do. (its MMO for a reason. game devs try to catch new players up to older to balance out the playing field. like how GW2 lowered the exp cost to level. or WoW made past expansions free for subscribers. or how SWTOR made leveling more streamlined. or WoT released tier 8 prem tanks)
or do you want more people playign skill que online. stayign docked. and not interacting with the game. (aka game right now) I want LESS P2W. Character bazar was added to combat illegal characters sales. (I dont like the bazar, but it seems to be a necessary evil.) PLEX was added to reduce RMT.
Skill trading is added to allow players to progress faster. Supporters say the P2W aspect of skill trading is no problem because the character bazar is already P2W. Is that a reason to add even more of this P2W? To make it easier???
If we allow skill trading, whats next?
- Premium ship insurance (covers 100%) for 500AUR? I can already hear the supporters: "ITS NOT MORE P2W THAN PLEX"
- 30-Day Bounty Hunter License: 50% ISK bonus on all NPC bounties for 5,000AUR? The supporters "ITS NOT P2W BECAUSE YOU CAN ACHIEVE THE SAME BY GRINDING LONGER"
- Premium starter packs for 10,000AUR? "Be the wolf among the sheep and start you EVE career with 5 fully fitted and perfectly skilled Svipuls!" The supporters: "ITS NOT MORE P2W THAN SKILL TRADING AND PLEX"
Its a race to the bottom.
Im for helping newbies, as long as its not Pay 2 Progress. Im for some kind of skill rearrangement, as long as it has meaningful restrictions which prevent ISK- or $-rich players/alliances/coalitions from gaining an advantage. So im against the current form of skill trading.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
210
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:13:57 -
[1539] - Quote
lol, none of those are polls |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
206
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:21:52 -
[1540] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:
so its not just a money move. its also a move to improve the game.
It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink. Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)...
I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:27:30 -
[1541] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink. Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)...
I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year. Being wealthy doesn't actually keep the SP from sinking. Actually being willing to start more accounts or consume more certs for SP sale does try to counteract it. Though really, who's going to be willing to do to much of that in an uncertain prospect missing a key piece of information? |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:32:36 -
[1542] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:By the end here, you just proved me right. If you cannot see how low cost injectors can artificially inflate PLEX in the short term, then actually DEVALUATE plex in the long run, then I daresay you have not seen as far ahead as I have. There will be two forces acting on the PLEX prices due to skill extractors. On one hand, since one can turn ISK into PLEX, and PLEX into AUR, people will be shopping for more PLEX to buy skill extractors. That's an increase in demand. On the other hand, since people will want to buy skill injectors, but many won't be making enough in-game ISK, they will buy PLEX for real cash and sell them for ISK. That's an increase in supply.
Let us consider the "production price" of an injector (from a SP farm). It is 0.25*PLEX+extractor_price. Let us also assume that the SP farmer is buying the extractor by converting ISK into PLEX, and then exchanging every PLEX for (I believe) the fixed amount of 3,500 AUR set by CCP. Thus the actual production price is entirely proportional to PLEX: (0.25+extractor_price/3500 AUR)*PLEX. This means however that extractor pice has essentially no impact on the supply side. Why? Because buying PLEX with real cash always nets me the same number of "production price" skill injectors. Let's say the extractor price would be 875 AUR. Then the "production price" would be half a PLEX. If I buy a PLEX with real money, I can expect to buy two skill injectors with it. That statement is independent of how many ISK I'm actually getting for a PLEX. If I'm getting more, then the skill injectors will also be dearer, if I'm getting less, then they will also be cheaper.
If the AUR price for the extractor is high, then people need to buy more PLEX with ISK to afford them. This increases PLEX demand, and will raise PLEX price. On the supply side, basically nothing happens, as just argued. So the PLEX price goes up.
It is correct that PLEX prices will likely go up over this, but the more the extractor costs, the more they will go up. So if you like your PLEX prices low, then you should hope for extractor prices as low as possible. Of course, if the extractor price is so high that almost nobody buys any, then this will retain the status quo, also for PLEX prices. But that's unlikely. The worst case scenario for PLEX price is the one you seem to want, namely extractor prices that are very high but not so high as to stop all trade. That will make the PLEX price shoot up considerably.
Oreb Wing wrote:All our would take is a handful of nerds that think it's fun to make a game out of selling the SP they accumulated. They could destroy Eve without ever firing a single missile. Industrialists that never leave station need only plug the best learning implants and sell the injectors as an easy side project. Now add the 1% over and on top of that. How would any of this "destroy EVE"? It is exceedingly unlikely that we have enough industrialists who will extract SP from themselves to fulfil the demand for skill injectors. It is likely that after burning through the unwanted SP pool of older players, most injectors will be produced by dedicated SP farms. We can predict their "production price" by the existing game mechanics.
None of this will lead to major upheavals on the market. As far as game play goes, it is likely to accelerate mainly progression among "middle age" players, who can generate enough ISK to afford this, but do not get hit so badly by the injector efficacy reduction. Most newbies will be too poor, and for the really old players it will not be worth it in most cases. The lower the extractor price in AUR, the more the uptake will come from younger players, simply since this will mean a lower total price in ISK for the injectors. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
207
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:34:56 -
[1543] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink. Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)...
I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year. Being wealthy doesn't actually keep the SP from sinking. Actually being willing to start more accounts or consume more certs for SP sale does try to counteract it. Though really, who's going to be willing to do to much of that in an uncertain prospect missing a key piece of information?
The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.
SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:42:08 -
[1544] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.
SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP. So instead of SP sinking "Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)" it's sinking especially because of wealthy players. Also there isn't such a thing as cost irrelevance with SP due to the number of SP you can sink into a character and the likely cost of that SP (before counting the unknown aur base cost). There is also supply constraint which no amount of isk or cash can work around if it becomes an issue. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
207
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:53:19 -
[1545] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.
SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP. So instead of SP sinking "Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)" it's sinking especially because of wealthy players. Also there isn't such a thing as cost irrelevance with SP due to the number of SP you can sink into a character and the likely cost of that SP (before counting the unknown aur base cost). There is also supply constraint which no amount of isk or cash can work around if it becomes an issue.
You misunderstood my first comment. I did not word it well, but I did not mean to imply that wealth would affect the SP sink. Just that the wealthy will find this change is good for them. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:56:28 -
[1546] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:You misunderstood my first comment. I did not word it well, but I did not mean to imply that wealth would affect the SP sink. Just that the wealthy will find this change is good for them. Ah, ok. On that point we agree.
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 01:30:46 -
[1547] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy. How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
419
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 03:25:01 -
[1548] - Quote
Officer Pressly wrote:Whilest a small part of the community are doomsayers. Most of us really want this, and are looking forward to the changes that are comming. This will allow you to keep up with the changes that are happening in eve, or have happend along time ago. Most of the players do want some kind of skill respec ability to cope with the constant changes in Eve but not flat out SP trading in this corrupt form, there's a big difference. It breaks the main core mechanics of what Eve is and why it's unique for a player to transfer his/her already trained skills to an entirely different char.
The end result is a game that is no longer Eve. It will instead become another space WoW clone or World of Spaceships. If that's what CCP wants then their reputation as one of the greatest MMO game designers is gonna be history. |
OldWolf69
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
203
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 03:38:45 -
[1549] - Quote
Titus Tallang wrote:I still think this is a terrible idea, just like last time it was proposed. Here's why:
- It has the outward appearance of microtransactions: Whether this system, with its unique CCP-branded Everything Comes From Another PlayerGäó approach, is actually a microtransaction system is arguable, but this is not the point. What matters is the first impression on a new player. "Wait 10 hours to train this skill - or take out your credit card and buy some PLEX!". I realize the prospect has dollar signs twirling in the eyes of your accountants right now, but it's guaranteed to drive plenty of new players away, especially during those crucial first days. I can guarantee you it would've driven me away when I started playing.
- It makes it so new players (feel they) have to purchase SP with cash to remain competitive: Bittervets get 150k SP per extractor, while brand new players get 500k SP per extractor, a 233% increase. Now contrast the buying power of bittervets with the buying power of new players. Do you really believe that these will end up in any price range that is remotely affordable for a new player that doesn't have Credit Card V trained? Yet a new player that doesn't pay for these will see his friends flying more powerful ships, with better modules, and higher effectiveness, thus affecting a strong psychological incentive to also pay for SP boosters to remain competitive.
Please stop doing your best Scrooge McDuck impression with a cash register jingling in the background and stop this madness before it's too late. We have enough issues retaining new players, something the game badly needs, as is, without you adding a system that makes it look as if you had the same monetization model as a f**ing Farmville clone. ^This. Pointless to tell more. |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 03:54:35 -
[1550] - Quote
I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it..
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2638
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 03:59:56 -
[1551] - Quote
Alea wrote:I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it.. I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:03:56 -
[1552] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it.. I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill.
I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
OldWolf69
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
203
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:04:26 -
[1553] - Quote
Also. No matter what yall think, some older Devs might know the dangers of this move. But. I bet this was going like: "Owner - get me money! Dev - Sir, this might... Owner - I don't care. resolve it. Dev - Sir, but... Owner - Money. Nao. Or get rekt." Skilltrading was pretty much the last thing they had for sale, in a game without any dynamic, point or sense. If i would like to play this on a small scale map, i just would go for other games offering way better maps. Restricting movement ingame made this. If i would like to play a pointless game, i would go for browsergames. If i would like to play a game in wich all the toys are nerfed to absolute nonsense, while some are buffed to absolute nonsense... but i won't. No matter what. I bet the Aurum project was made by someone high enuf in ranks that it MUST not fail. So i also bet we will get all the good things back. Just they will ask for money in exchange. They just made it slowly enuf for us to not get really sick of it and continue playing. Slowly all the guys making this game worth playing will go away. Most of them are gone already. And there's no sign new ones will rise. I don't care bout the statistics they made. Good eve players aren't daily on forums, and mostly don't bother to fill up statistics. They DO play the game, not the forums. So welcome to the new world of bored hiseccers, consuming it all away like candys and unsubbing after. Skills are worthless, no matter what kind of those are, if the toys are broken, gents. This will do absolutely nothing to the game except making sum idiots bleed RL cash. And make some farmers even more rich. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2638
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:06:57 -
[1554] - Quote
Alea wrote:Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it.. I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill. I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea. I'm ambivalent about whether there should be a public account of purchased SP. I wouldn't mind personally. But I do like that it introduces more intel uncertainty. Perfect intel is bad IMHO.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
143
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:14:15 -
[1555] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy. How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means.
You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
169
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:16:53 -
[1556] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it.. I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill. I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea. I'm ambivalent about whether there should be a public account of purchased SP. I wouldn't mind personally. But I do like that it introduces more intel uncertainty. Perfect intel is bad IMHO.
I agree that would make it too easy, but having the ability to hide purchased SP would be even more of a game breaker in my opinion, buyers of SP should have to wear a scarlet letter of some sort.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:25:25 -
[1557] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy. How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means. You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error. I'm not getting the same conclusion regarding either a set availability or value from that. Rather he stated SP availability is variable. Meanwhile I'd question the logic that a high extractor price does anything to change availability in a positive fashion or further the idea that those power blocks can somehow realistically be priced out while still making them obtainable by anyone else.
|
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2638
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:29:46 -
[1558] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy. How can anyone possibly "buy and control" this market? It is a renewable resource, regeneration can be sped up arbitrarily by recruiting more alts; and it is accessible to practically everybody in station without ever undocking, so it is impossible to restrict by non-market means. You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error. Here's my prediction. The market will open expensive (as always) but rapidly bottom out as people ditch their millions of mining SP. A combination of consumer and investor purchasing will soak up the excess supply within a couple of weeks and the price will gradually climb. It will plateau after a couple of months as the non-peak demand level is established and high SP vets start farming their static alt accounts to subsidise subscription plex cost. DEPENDING on the cost of extractors.
So my advice is to buy skill packets as soon as you see it bottom out. Expect price spikes around major rebalances. Also, remember that CCP will probably offer periodic discounts on extractor costs.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Soltys
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:34:04 -
[1559] - Quote
Quote: It breaks the main core mechanics of what Eve is and why it's unique for a player to transfer his/her already trained skills to an entirely different char.
Self-botting XP bar is a mechanic ? Or something unique ? Come blody on ....
It's an artificial, meaningless timewall existing solely for the reason of keeping people subscribed before they are useful in most (not all) realistic scenarios. It's also a mutated leftover from "mmo must have xp bar" concept. And from 2003 EvE with no T2, T3, titans, capitals, rigging, planets and a good few other things.
Again: it's sole purpose has always been subscription money in form of extremely simplistic and primitive "achievment" bait (that people actually believe in it is both sad and amazing at the same time).
And it took well over decade for CCP to realise it's hurting the (much more bloated now than 12 years ago) game far more than helping with anything.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
144
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:40:43 -
[1560] - Quote
"I'm not getting the same conclusion regarding either a set availability or value from that. Rather he stated SP availability is variable. Meanwhile I'd question the logic that a high extractor price does anything to change availability in a positive fashion or further the idea that those power blocks can somehow realistically be priced out while still making them obtainable by anyone else."
Do you realistically believe that people that use plex for Isk will continue to use just plex? It will be easier and cheaper to sell extractors, which brings us to the diminishing availability of plex and its exponential increased demand - or, again, do you both think these SP farms will be paid with real subs? The equations are estimations based on current numbers and not accurate models based on an overwhelming probability of the cheap extractors surpassing plex in value. You say it is impossible, but is it really?
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:41:22 -
[1561] - Quote
I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not.
IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years.
increasing your SP does not make you any better at the game learning from experience and playing the game and asking for help from more experienced players is how you get better only ways to get better actually. suddenly having 100 mill sp wont make you better at fitting or tactics or strategy or when to fight or flee ect...
the reason is the only proof out there is to the contrary that buying a char (soon sp) ends in disaster when they dont know what they are doing such examples as officer fit mission ships that get ganked for the 10-50 bill in mods they fit . fail officer fits trying to do solo pvp and much more. before you cry omg its pay to win try using common sense first then make an educated desicion. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
144
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:48:40 -
[1562] - Quote
And even if this disaster it's curtailed, the damage would have been done. The low cost of the extractors would bring this upside down situation that makes this exploitable by not just the rich 1% but the 10%. That is what you are not grasping.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 04:54:43 -
[1563] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Do you realistically believe that people that use plex for Isk will continue to use just plex? It will be easier and cheaper to sell extractors, which brings us to the diminishing availability of plex and its exponential increased demand - or, again, do you both think these SP farms will be paid with real subs? The equations are estimations based on current numbers and not accurate models based on an overwhelming probability of the cheap extractors surpassing plex in value. You say it is impossible, but is it really? In the case you just spoke of, someone selling PLEX in game for isk, yes, the "farm" is very likely paid with a real sub. Every SP buyer on the other hand won't have that option to sate their need for isk due to it being directly counter productive. They will have to grind the isk or be a PLEX supplier.
Also extractors can't surpass PLEX in value. So long as PLEX is convertible to AUR, high extractor prices in isk relative to PLEX will drive demand for PLEX to get a better exchange rate. Well, I guess if enough people forget how to do math or that PLEX to AUR is a thing it could work out differently, but I'd rather not shoot the in game price of both waaaay up on the hope that no one figures that out.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
752
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 05:05:08 -
[1564] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not.
IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years.
increasing your SP does not make you any better at the game learning from experience and playing the game and asking for help from more experienced players is how you get better only ways to get better actually. suddenly having 100 mill sp wont make you better at fitting or tactics or strategy or when to fight or flee ect...
the reason is the only proof out there is to the contrary that buying a char (soon sp) ends in disaster when they dont know what they are doing such examples as officer fit mission ships that get ganked for the 10-50 bill in mods they fit . fail officer fits trying to do solo pvp and much more. before you cry omg its pay to win try using common sense first then make an educated desicion.
Where have you been dude? You have just explained that loud and clear that SP sell is bad idea. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 05:09:50 -
[1565] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not.
IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years.
increasing your SP does not make you any better at the game learning from experience and playing the game and asking for help from more experienced players is how you get better only ways to get better actually. suddenly having 100 mill sp wont make you better at fitting or tactics or strategy or when to fight or flee ect...
the reason is the only proof out there is to the contrary that buying a char (soon sp) ends in disaster when they dont know what they are doing such examples as officer fit mission ships that get ganked for the 10-50 bill in mods they fit . fail officer fits trying to do solo pvp and much more. before you cry omg its pay to win try using common sense first then make an educated desicion. Where have you been dude? You have just explained that loud and clear that SP sell is bad idea. More like the fact that CCP is giving people more room to fail rather than enabling them to win. But since when is the idea of giving someone room to fail a reason something can't or shouldn't be in game? |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
752
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 05:13:20 -
[1566] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not.
IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years.
increasing your SP does not make you any better at the game learning from experience and playing the game and asking for help from more experienced players is how you get better only ways to get better actually. suddenly having 100 mill sp wont make you better at fitting or tactics or strategy or when to fight or flee ect...
the reason is the only proof out there is to the contrary that buying a char (soon sp) ends in disaster when they dont know what they are doing such examples as officer fit mission ships that get ganked for the 10-50 bill in mods they fit . fail officer fits trying to do solo pvp and much more. before you cry omg its pay to win try using common sense first then make an educated desicion. Where have you been dude? You have just explained that loud and clear that SP sell is bad idea. More like the fact that CCP is giving people more room to fail rather than enabling them to win. But since when is the idea of giving someone room to fail a reason something can't or shouldn't be in game? You mean the idea like fitting officer mods would bring you a victory? Very true statement. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
420
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 05:56:22 -
[1567] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win".
Char Bazaar is a scaled down version of pay2win with drawbacks. This SP trading is removing those drawbacks making it flat out pay2win which is a huge difference that only the delusional can't seem to grasp. |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 06:02:10 -
[1568] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win".
your trolling level is around -5 with that terrible post. pay to win by definition is when you can pay to gain a clear advantage when in eve all you can do is pay to save time and still be terrible at the game. the fact that you mentioned a computer virus as your reference is just pretty terrible WoW is nothing more then a computer virus that should be whipped from existence. also your opinion does not count as proof of a pay to win option that does not exist and will not exist with this new addition nice try tho. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3228
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:14:48 -
[1569] - Quote
Dear, dear Yaasmine, I assume you have acess to your parents credit card to enable you to buy all the skill points you desire?
If not, then cash for skills will only mean that you will fall even further behind those who started around the same time as you and who do have credit cards.
Oh, and you have several times you have done with this thread, and yet, there you are, still posting.
Kind regards.
This is not a signature.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3228
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:19:16 -
[1570] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it.. I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill. I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea. I'm ambivalent about whether there should be a public account of purchased SP. I wouldn't mind personally. But I do like that it introduces more intel uncertainty. Perfect intel is bad IMHO.
It is a serious mistake for anyone to equate the birth date of a player will skill points.
Unfortunately, I am a good example of such misguided thinking.
This is not a signature.
|
|
Cixi
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:29:24 -
[1571] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". Char Bazaar is a scaled down version of pay2win with drawbacks. This SP trading is removing those drawbacks making it flat out pay2win which is a huge difference that only the delusional can't seem to grasp.
Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints.
Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card.
lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none
Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP. |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2638
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:30:03 -
[1572] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:Zappity wrote:Alea wrote:I'm going to miss this game once the lazy, instant gratification kiddies get done ruining it.. I'm going to enjoy shooting them all. SP doesn't equal skill. I hope there will be a way to tell who buys SP so I can keep them under a constant wardec, hell I'll create another corp just for that purpose alone, thanks for the idea. I'm ambivalent about whether there should be a public account of purchased SP. I wouldn't mind personally. But I do like that it introduces more intel uncertainty. Perfect intel is bad IMHO. It is a serious mistake for anyone to equate the birth date of a player will skill points. Unfortunately, I am a good example of such misguided thinking. You are correct. But it does work in one direction at the moment, namely that a young player (for example) cannot fly a dictor. Anyway, uncertainty is good. A couple of weeks ago I lost a Magus to a Hecate plus a Curse (who was sneakily d-scan immune in a plex). I thought it was great. New mechanics which add surprise elements (thinking Command Destroyers) are positive for the game. It has become to algebraic with the outcome calculable before you even undock.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
422
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:40:25 -
[1573] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". Char Bazaar is a scaled down version of pay2win with drawbacks. This SP trading is removing those drawbacks making it flat out pay2win which is a huge difference that only the delusional can't seem to grasp. Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints. Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card. lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP. This seems to be the typical mindless of the PVP players in this thread. Try to remember that Eve is not all about PVP. If Eve was all about PVP then sure, I'd welcome the change like all the others. But as I stated earlier in this thread, some of us Eve players actually like the role playing experience that Eve provides and this SP trading scheme completely shatters that experience.
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Fifty Shades of Funkyness LLC
296
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:51:06 -
[1574] - Quote
If CCP's willing to float Plex into the game to keep inflation under some sort of control, do you really think they won't float SP injectors in to keep the micro-transaction income in the black ink?
If I wanted to buy FaceBook tokens to fast repair my fleet in Battle Pirates, I'd still be playing frikken Battle Pirates, Not Eve Online.
The theory of a limited amount of SP to buy or sell is false. Who's sandbox are we playing in again?
If the SPs run low, CCP can with a click of a coding, create more out of TQ's thinning air with some alts for sale on the character bazaar to have their brain drain surgery.
Plex getting a little high on the inflation? No biggie, CCP alts can crank out a few dozen contracts at the price they want the market to re-balance to.
They want those Aurum packages to sell, since that is the one thing un-tradable in this whole cash grab scheme. First taste is free, just ask any successful dealer. So I shall pass on sampling the SP injector goods.
I Just Say No.
CCP has decided their outlook on their future as a gaming company (VR for the 1%, rest not worth the effort), their bogus call for 'feedback' on a decision already made and paid for in Aria cloud software, their silence on fulfilling a growing list of promises, and that it's jump on the $5 clicky bandwagon since it's good for us (them).
Someone in that glass tower might wanna scoop this sandbox. The kitty crunchies are piling up and it smells bad.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
753
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 07:55:33 -
[1575] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". Char Bazaar is a scaled down version of pay2win with drawbacks. This SP trading is removing those drawbacks making it flat out pay2win which is a huge difference that only the delusional can't seem to grasp. Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints. Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card. lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP.
Damn you! You have just ruin my cloudy dream where Neo has loaded Kung-Fu skils and helicopter driving skills and performed damn well immediatelly.
To bad we are not in Matrix... |
Zappity
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
2638
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:10:14 -
[1576] - Quote
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:If CCP's willing to float Plex into the game to keep inflation under some sort of control, do you really think they won't float SP injectors in to keep the micro-transaction income in the black ink?
If I wanted to buy FaceBook tokens to fast repair my fleet in Battle Pirates, I'd still be playing frikken Battle Pirates, Not Eve Online.
The theory of a limited amount of SP to buy or sell is false. Who's sandbox are we playing in again?
If the SPs run low, CCP can with a click of a coding, create more out of TQ's thinning air with some alts for sale on the character bazaar to have their brain drain surgery.
Plex getting a little high on the inflation? No biggie, CCP alts can crank out a few dozen contracts at the price they want the market to re-balance to.
They want those Aurum packages to sell, since that is the one thing un-tradable in this whole cash grab scheme. First taste is free, just ask any successful dealer. So I shall pass on sampling the SP injector goods.
I Just Say No.
CCP has decided their outlook on their future as a gaming company (VR for the 1%, rest not worth the effort), their bogus call for 'feedback' on a decision already made and paid for in Aria cloud software, their silence on fulfilling a growing list of promises, and that it's jump on the $5 clicky bandwagon since it's good for us (them).
Someone in that glass tower might wanna scoop this sandbox. The kitty crunchies are piling up and it smells bad.
>Jeven This nonsense is not what they are actually doing.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:16:01 -
[1577] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Cixi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". Char Bazaar is a scaled down version of pay2win with drawbacks. This SP trading is removing those drawbacks making it flat out pay2win which is a huge difference that only the delusional can't seem to grasp. Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints. Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card. lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP. This seems to be the typical mindset of the PVP players in this thread. Try to remember that Eve is not all about PVP. If Eve was all about PVP then sure, I'd welcome the change like all the other PVP brainiacs. But as I stated earlier in this thread, some of us Eve players actually like the role playing experience that Eve provides and this SP trading scheme completely shatters that experience.
This is the same for everything. I don't PvP at all, I'm a trader, it's even harder for a trader to compete only with SP, because spreadsheets, and also... standings |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
753
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:27:40 -
[1578] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Cixi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:[quote=Shova'k]I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints. Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card. lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP. This seems to be the typical mindset of the PVP players in this thread. Try to remember that Eve is not all about PVP. If Eve was all about PVP then sure, I'd welcome the change like all the other PVP brainiacs. But as I stated earlier in this thread, some of us Eve players actually like the role playing experience that Eve provides and this SP trading scheme completely shatters that experience. This is the same for everything. I don't PvP at all, I'm a trader, it's even harder for a trader to compete only with SP, because spreadsheets, and also... standings
Is that mean if player B maxed his trading skills by injectors would also be outperformed by player A who trained all those in a standard manner?
In your example with Comets there is pretty clear that both have similar goals of being perfect Comet pilots if i got you right. And perfect means maxed all related skills. And this is why CCP is introducing this SP bazar. And here where the bullshit is hiden. New arrivals those who have no actual experience got false info and interpret SP purchase as a "golden ticket" to perfect conditions. I haven't found any words in Rise's thread where he mentioned that to newbies. |
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:29:55 -
[1579] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: But as I stated earlier in this thread, some of us Eve players actually like the role playing experience that Eve provides and this SP trading scheme completely shatters that experience.
I do not see, how sp training affects your roleplaying experience........ This seems like a very sought argument tbh. SP packets will not make a difference for many PvE activties either. You still need the standings grind to open up lvl 4 missions. Tradig is not affected at all, as the skill point train is so short anyway, and the money is more in knowing, what, when and where to sell. Pi is also a short train. Exploring you can do without good skills. So if the only thing suffering is your role playing experience (which is basically just a mental choice you made, I can still roleplay for an exmple), seems like CCP has found a well balanced system, without too many drawbacks.
And drop the pay2win rhethorics. I have explained pay2win is used to describe other kinds of games, where you get in game advantages, unobtainable without paying direct money. Here everyone can get it, giving the proper investment of time.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:30:59 -
[1580] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote: Is that mean if player B maxed his trading skills by injectors would also be outperformed by player A who trained all those in a standard manner?
|
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
513
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:33:05 -
[1581] - Quote
Cixi wrote: Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints.
Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card.
lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none
Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP.
I love Player A, player B examples, here's my: 2 players, both 0 day newbros Player A don't buy SP packet and just wait to train skills Player B bought and currently flying T3D with T2 modules
Now they clash in PvP battle, who has advantage? Player A with propablly his first T1 frig or Player B with T3D? I could do this whole day. When you go faster than others (SP) you are paying to be better. Nobody tell me flying raven is same thing than flying golem, flying T1 hauler than cloaky one, not to mention T3 cruisers.
There are artificial thersholds for hulls. I love the argument that it's the experience that is matter the most. Why there are thersholds then? Where's the benefit? How good would be T2 cruiser if I could fly it without high level skills from day 1?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:40:45 -
[1582] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Cixi wrote: Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints.
Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card.
lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none
Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP.
I love Player A, player B examples, here's my: 2 players, both 0 day newbros Player A don't buy SP packet and just wait to train skills Player B bought and currently flying T3D with T2 modules Now they clash in PvP battle, who has advantage? Player A with propablly his first T1 frig or Player B with T3D? I could do this whole day. When you go faster than others (SP) you are paying to be better. Nobody tell me flying raven is same thing than flying golem, flying T1 hauler than cloaky one, not to mention T3 cruisers. There are artificial thersholds for hulls. I love the argument that it's the experience that is matter the most. Why there are thersholds then? Where's the benefit? How good would be T2 cruiser if I could fly it without high level skills from day 1?
Tell me in what situation a d0 newbro would fight against a T3 destroyer ? lets say he went into low sec, well then people who bought skill points will be the least of his worries |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
422
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:48:55 -
[1583] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". your trolling level is around -5 with that terrible post. pay to win by definition is when you can pay to gain a clear advantage when in eve all you can do is pay to save time and still be terrible at the game. the fact that you mentioned a computer virus as your reference is just pretty terrible WoW is nothing more then a computer virus that should be whipped from existence. also your opinion does not count as proof of a pay to win option that does not exist and will not exist with this new addition nice try tho. @ tiddle jr - I never said buying sp was a good idea :P but it hell it gives the rest of us delicious kill mails in the end Okay fine you wanna get technical, we'll get technical. It's called pay2advance, you happy now. And guess what, it's still breaks the game in the same fashion as pay2win.
Again I see only PVP minded players having this delusion that this pay2advance feature is the same as Char Bazaar.
The difference between SP trading and char bazaar has already been explained countless time, need it be repeated again??
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1882
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 08:57:00 -
[1584] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Is that mean if player B maxed his trading skills by injectors would also be outperformed by player A who trained all those in a standard manner?
In your example with Comets there is pretty clear that both have similar goals of being perfect Comet pilots if i got you right. And perfect means maxed all related skills. And this is why CCP is introducing this SP bazar. And here where the bullshit is hiden. New arrivals those who have no actual experience got false info and interpret SP purchase as a "golden ticket" to perfect conditions. I haven't found any words in Rise's thread where he mentioned that to newbies. Or maybe we're not giving new players enough credit here. Some would paint them as an inferior breed of human, unable to grasp the concept of player skill vs SP and further have no grasp of what the are buying yet gladly do so anyways, or worse, after getting that first injector and being forced to confront the skill system just to use it, still not understand the fundamental concepts of what skills do and think they could buy their way to winning.
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear, dear Yaasmine, I assume you have acess to your parents credit card to enable you to buy all the skill points you desire?
If not, then cash for skills will only mean that you will fall even further behind those who started around the same time as you and who do have credit cards.
Oh, and you have several times you have done with this thread, and yet, there you are, still posting.
Kind regards. Every isk that makes it into a PLEX seller's wallet was earned in game by someone. Those collective someones had enough disposable isk to sustain PLEX at near 1.2B. That's a considerable amount of isk floating out there with trillions more flooding into the game. There is no reason for the vast and growing majority of the player base to actually use a CC for this feature.
With the exception of the very new, who really have no use for the feature until they understand what they are buying and prior to that likely won't be wanting to spend real money on it, the people who will be buying PLEX for this will be doing it for the same reason people buy PLEX now, because they can't be bothered to earn it.
There is no insidious trick or master plan on CCP's part. It works the same way PLEX has since inception, by letting the game determine the value according to players actual ability to earn isk and desire to spend it on them.
Daniela Doran wrote:Okay fine you wanna get technical, we'll get technical. It's called pay2advance, you happy now. And guess what, it's still breaks the game in the same fashion as pay2win.
Again I see only PVP minded players having this delusion that this pay2advance feature is the same as Char Bazaar.
The difference between SP trading and char bazaar has already been explained countless time, need it be repeated again?? It should be noted that making you personally feel bad and breaking the game are not the same thing. Every attempt to explain how the game would break just circles back to how you feel about it, making it at best just the story of one failed player adaptation rather than a broken game.
You're claim of the game breaking has no credibility because the most you can put behind it is the fact that you just don't like it. You're not even considering the game at large, so it's pretty dishonest to keep parroting how it's going to fail don't you think? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2014
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 09:57:54 -
[1585] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:... then don't dress it up as game is dead or going to die.
I never have, I've said I think it is a bad idea, that it isn't going to help new players unless you class charging them more as being good for them, and that I believe only the wealthy will benefit from this. Never once have I said 'EvE is dying *runs around waving arms in the air*...'
Yaasmine wrote:... or purely a move for money.
If they wanted to help new players and believed skills were the problem they would simply give every new character a stack of unallocated SP upfront and tell them to run the career paths before assigning them (or assign them at their own risk). They would not be charging them more at the first perceived hurdle in the game
Yaasmine wrote: money is a motive for any business. but this isn't just for money(otherwise it wouldnt be sellable for isk), they trying to fix some issues in game at the same time.
and seeing as how its encouraging people to play, rather than set a que and logg off for a month. it is helping new players.
If these had been introduced as player built items in game then maybe it would be for the benefit of active in game players, but it isn't. It's for the money it will generate and I have no problem with a business doing that. I just dislike the way they are doing it (as in this idea).
As for helping new players what happens when they buy skill packs that they can afford ( say 2 PLEX worth, an extra -ú30 or so). Then they can fly frigs well and maybe some destroyers but now they want tech III cruisers. So what now? They just throw more money in to get to those? Or set the skill queue for the much longer train required and log of as you suggest they do now? If you give someone something easily they will simply want more equally easily.
Yaasmine wrote: a new player might never earn enough to buy a skill injector. but having the motive of saving up for one, causes them to play the game, and thus stay engaged as they discover new things, and improve the game for others by having more people in the universe.
if they manage to earn enough for a skill injector, or get donated one by a corporation thats looking to recruit. then thats a major help for them.
so its not just a money move. its also a move to improve the game.
If a new player might never earn enough for an injector they have already failed the claimed intention of them. f they can't afford one then how would they be incentivized to play the game whilst waiting to earn isk instead of log off and wait for skills as you say they do now? (considering they won't have the skills to earn the isk in their eyes until the queue has run through).
As you say rich groups may be able to donate them but that is exactly the point I make above. Only the wealthy (whether it be individuals or groups) will benefit from this.
So just to be clear:
I don't think this will kill the game necessarily I don't think it is a good idea I don't think it will function as claimed to benefit new players I don't think it's a good idea to mess around with the core of the game in this way.
I do think it will benefit the wealthy, any new players who get anything from this would be an odd kind of collateral benefit |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 09:59:30 -
[1586] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error. Tosh. It is exactly because the availability of SP is not set - but rather arbitrarily flexible - that the market will eventually balance around the "production price". SP production is limited ultimately only by how fast one can work through the various steps needed to "milk" an alt. A single individual can probably manage a SP farm with a hundred alts though, since maintenance is relatively low. There is simply no way that the demand side can "win" this particular game. No finite pocket is deep enough to buy up production that can be accelerated near arbitrarily.
Unfortunately, I expect that the power blocks will become net producers of SP, running their own giant SP farms (in part to service their members). And their main effect on the market will be that poor individuals like me will not run SP farms because the big guys will keep the profit margins low.
Still, given the ease of production, we can be confident that there never will be a major dearth of injectors for longer than a few months. if the main producers try to play market games, others can easily step up to fill the gaps. There may be an initial glut as "unwanted" SP is dumped on the market though. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33255
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:02:35 -
[1587] - Quote
More than SP I'd like the ability to transfer standings through sponsorship. Some type of system where infractions impact the sponsor two to five times more than normal, but the sponsoree enjoys either full or partial standings benefits.
You are your friends, etc.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Jeven HouseBenyo
Fifty Shades of Funkyness LLC
296
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:05:48 -
[1588] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:If CCP's willing to float Plex into the game to keep inflation under some sort of control, do you really think they won't float SP injectors in to keep the micro-transaction income in the black ink?
If I wanted to buy FaceBook tokens to fast repair my fleet in Battle Pirates, I'd still be playing frikken Battle Pirates, Not Eve Online.
The theory of a limited amount of SP to buy or sell is false. Who's sandbox are we playing in again?
If the SPs run low, CCP can with a click of a coding, create more out of TQ's thinning air with some alts for sale on the character bazaar to have their brain drain surgery.
Plex getting a little high on the inflation? No biggie, CCP alts can crank out a few dozen contracts at the price they want the market to re-balance to.
They want those Aurum packages to sell, since that is the one thing un-tradable in this whole cash grab scheme. First taste is free, just ask any successful dealer. So I shall pass on sampling the SP injector goods.
I Just Say No.
CCP has decided their outlook on their future as a gaming company (VR for the 1%, rest not worth the effort), their bogus call for 'feedback' on a decision already made and paid for in Aria cloud software, their silence on fulfilling a growing list of promises, and that it's jump on the $5 clicky bandwagon since it's good for us (them).
Someone in that glass tower might wanna scoop this sandbox. The kitty crunchies are piling up and it smells bad.
>Jeven This nonsense is not what they are actually doing.
I'll take the bait ship on this one. Prove that what I typed is nonsense (especially what's been underlined to stand out) and not what's going to happen. Either way, I don't have a great luv for the taste of cherry Kool-Ade and I won't be buying, selling, or using the SP extractors. That would be me supporting this specific insanity and nooooo, not going to happen.
>Jeven
Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.
'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.
Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.
Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P
No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33255
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:12:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Will you explain the Aria connection to EVE in greater detail? I found this article, but it only mentions Valkyrie. https://www.ariasystems.com/company/press-release/ccp-games-selects-aria-systems-active-monetization-platform
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Darth Behelzebhu
Lair of Demons
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:22:27 -
[1590] - Quote
I think there's a lot of overreaction to this. Let's not forget that what the new players will have to buy from CCP is PLEX to sell and buy the injectors that other players put in market, not extractors, or anything else. What we might see is overflow of PLEX in market. In average, without +5's and full remaps, let's say you can train 1.5mill SP per month, that's 3 injectors; those who are willing to sell their SP will have to buy the extractors and set a price, can't be much lower than 500mill ISK per injector to cover the cost of 1.2 bill of the month PLEX and the extractor itself. Now lets see how much is this:
Very very very unlikely scenario #1: Timmy is new to EVE, he gets in the game and sees he can't fly big stuff; but what Timmy has, is a very rich Daddy; so Timmy sets himself to buy SP to get himself a shinny 200mill SP Toon; to reach that, Timmy has to buy 1023 Injectors from market (if he can even find that many)(and yes, i did the math to get to this number quite exactly). At 500mill each, Timmy needs 511 Bill isk, so Timmy needs to buy 500 PLEX from CCP at 20bucks, so he flungs the $10,000 to get them, + probably another $2-3000 to be able to buy the big ships. Now Timmy buys his Titan and gets out; he loses it..Timmy has learned now, alone he can't do anything, so he buys himself another 2-3 $12,000 Toons. And sets out with his 4 titans and probably still loses them. ---Timmy's Dad: Hey Timmy, i see here in the account you charged $46,000 to the card, did you bought a new sports car?? ---Timmy: No Daddy, i bought a lot of skillpoints for an Online game to be the most badass there. ---Dad: .....?.... ---Timmy: What's wrong Daddy? ---Dad: I'm just now 100% sure your mother cheated on me, cause there's NO WAY someone this stupid came out from me.
Will Timmy and his 4 toons really ruin the whole game??? NO, just simply he won't. Not to mention he probably get bored in a few months and quit.
Very unlikely scenario #2: 100 New Players decide to buy 100mill sp for their Toons. They are gonna need 360 injectors each, so 180bill, 180 PLEX, so they chunk their $3,600 + $400 to get ships and mods. Are they gonna ruin the game? No. Can they have an impact? Probably if they all team together may do somehting.
Most Likely Scenario # 1: Couple thousand players will spend $100-$200 bucks in a few PLEX, buy some SP to fly a little bigger ships earlier in the game and don't get so frustrated. Are they gonna ruin the game?
Now, i'm not saying i love this idea in it's current format, would like to see some changes to it still, but I just don't see the real Pay2Win thing everybody else seems to do, specially as the most likely scenario is just buying a few of the Injectors per toon. Am i gonna use the feature? Probably not, as for me 150k sp per injector means roughly 2-3 days of training, not really willing to chunk 500mill for that. If there was a new skill, or a skill i really need fast and can't wait to train it, probably can use 1-2 injectors, altough it will be very unlikely. Now, to all the Veterans that are so against this, have you forgotten all the free SP you've gotten during this years? Or how changes from a couple years back have done things more difficult to new players? For example, we only had to train the skills Destroyers, and Battlecruisers ONCE, and could fly all races. When they changed that and made one per race, we got millions of SP extra, surely, we only can fly same ships; but for new players they have to train them ALL now. If a couple thousand players decide to buy 5-6mill SP, is likely they'll use some of it to train those skills, which won't matter to me at all, or ruin my game experience or the likes, as i didn't even needed to train those, just a bit of perspective here.
Now, and i'm being VERY serious here, to all those vets that are REALLY gonna leave because of this (tbh, i don't believe most of you will actually do it); but, in the odd case you do, in all seriousness: CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?? I promise to take care of it and don't let it fall in SP buying toon Hands, jajajajajajaja.
|
|
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:22:47 -
[1591] - Quote
There are just too many unknown variables to judge whether or not this feature will break Eve or not. Like how much will the extractor and injector cost in USD and isk? If the price of the extractors are reasonable enough for the people with SP and the injectors high enough that not every one can afford it in mass quantity then this feature may turn out to be beneficial for those who want to endeavor in SP farming.
If I can make a profit selling my SP to where I no longer have to grind for isk then I welcome SP trading. If it becomes monopolize and only profitable by the filthy space rich then I concur that it would do more harm than good in the long term. It all boils down to CCPs foresight capabilities in what shape and form this SP trading gets introduce to Eve.
CCP is taking a gamble with this. If they get this right then they'll win bigtime. If they get it wrong then it's all over for Eve. |
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:27:02 -
[1592] - Quote
There is no doubt that feature purpose is to earn CCP more money. Claiming it's for newbros is a bit cheezy but we can hardly do anything about it.
The feature can be useful for a lot of player tho
The price for an extractor will be 2000 Aurum, that's the most logical price, from a business point of view. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
754
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:34:15 -
[1593] - Quote
Aria to EveO |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
754
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:39:47 -
[1594] - Quote
Cixi wrote:There is no doubt that feature purpose is to earn CCP more money. Claiming it's for newbros is a bit cheezy but we can hardly do anything about it.
The feature can be useful for a lot of player tho
The price for an extractor will be 2000 Aurum, that's the most logical price, from a business point of view.
how did you figure? |
Darth Behelzebhu
Lair of Demons
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:48:45 -
[1595] - Quote
Now, with that out of the way The topic here was feedback, as it states on first post the feature IS COMING, they asked us for tweaks and changes to it's current form.
In the very unlikely case CCP dev's are still reading here, i will like to offer this as a tweak:
current format: < 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector 5 million GÇô 50 million total skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints per injector (WAY TO BIG BRACKET HERE) 50 million GÇô 80 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector > 80 million skillpoints = 150k skillpoints per injector
I would prefer it was something like:
< 5 million total skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints per injector (5) 5 million GÇô 20 million total skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints per injector (15 instead of the current 45mill) 20 million GÇô 50 million total skillpoints = 300,000 skillpoints per injector (30) > 50 million skillpoints = 150k skillpoints per injector This for a 5-15-30 increase, let's not forget the second bracket, up to 20mill, equals 1 year of training, and still is very big boost to any new player.
What i would prefer? I would prefer simply selling a cap of SP, EQUAL TO EVERY PLAYER, even timed, but limited Anything between 20-50mill, that EVERYBODY can buy, and that's it; after you fill your "injector slots" with the SP can't use more.
Same to all, can be bought with cash or Isk, when someone takes them out of the store to the market. Will give new players the chance of getting a good boost, altough here is why i would prefer to make it a bit timed, not letting it be possible to inject all the SP at once. CCP gets a nice cash injection (nothing wrong with making money out of a BUSINESS) Everybody gets the same, but it is limited. Can even be a nice addition to Char Bazaar, for those of you that sell toons, can sell toons with the slots unused, giving extra value as you can immediatedly customize more skills of it to fit the buyer's like.
I think in this way, there's no pay2win, as everybody can use it, with time invested (making isk to buy) or cash, pretty much same as Plex now, some people play free cause they have the time to grind the isk, but it only means someone else is paying for them to play; same thing with a decent capped and timed rush of SP. |
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 11:03:36 -
[1596] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:[quote=Cixi] how did you figure?
You get 3500 AUR, 2000 AUR extractor mean you can only buy one per plex (56% of a plex) so you would need to input multiple PLEX (2 PLEX = 3 extractor and still 1000 leftover) for more than one, or have extra unused credits. I know it sound bad but this is how I would do it if I was in their position.
Edit : also the fact they didn't give the price tell us a lot they most likely already know the price. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
514
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 11:12:06 -
[1597] - Quote
Cixi wrote:also the fact they didn't give the price tell us a lot Lol they most likely already know the price. Ofc they do, price will be show at release date to cut speculation down.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 11:28:24 -
[1598] - Quote
the financial industry is doing some really amazing things with context-free grammars, isn't it |
Josef Djugashvilis
3231
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 11:36:01 -
[1599] - Quote
Cash for skills wil not break the game, but it does seriouly alter one of the underlying pillars upon which the game was founded.
This is not a signature.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2017
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 11:44:23 -
[1600] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Cash for skills wil not break the game, but it does seriouly alter one of the underlying pillars upon which the game was founded.
This is one of my major concerns with this idea, it fundamentally changes the game I signed up to play. Ho-Hum, I'll just see how it all pans out and wait for CyberPunk 2077 :D (Seriously, check the trailer for that...)
Note: This isn't an I'm going to quit type post, just that I'm now looking forward to other games alongside EvE, whereas before I only really played EvE. |
|
Memphis Baas
997
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 12:50:14 -
[1601] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Will you explain the Aria connection to EVE in greater detail?
I don't know anything, but, right now, if they want to microtransaction anything, they have to fully code the payment system, for each thing that they want to microtransaction. They had to code the extractor so that it has full functionality in-game, in the NEX store, and through the redeeming system, to get their Aur / cash for this particular feature.
With Aria, they can just focus on coding in-game stuff, and simply flag it for Aria to bring up a payment box or subtract some Aur from your wallet. They can focus on EVE and let Aria handle the payment system with all its intricacies. They could probably get rid of the NEX store and just let the outfits and the skins exist in-game, pay-if-you-want without even exiting the game. They could let us right-click to reassign skill points, without the need for an extractor or other such external mechanic.
The decision of what to monetize is still a separate thing from Aria, and they could very easily stick to their original policies of "microtransactions only for fluff, no P2W." We're complaining against any form of microtransactions, and that's pointless because money is a strong motivator and the're going forward with it; instead, we should have a strong reaction only to clearly P2W changes. And they should stick to their policy of no P2W.
I'm curious to hear their stance on skillpoints. Did adding all these big ships make the skillpoint accumulation too much, compared to how it was initially envisioned in 2003? Are they OK with the fact that it takes 3+ years to skill up to "endgame" ships (however skewed our perception of that may be), where other MMO's only take 3 months to "max out and gear up" any single character?
As a stray thought, CCP could sell premade characters on the Character Bazaar, instead of this extractor business. 5 mil, 20 mil, 40 mil, 60 mil, 100 mil skillpoints, pre-assigned to relevant skills. Named Citizen 3241515224, with a free name change. I wonder if the "it's P2W" reaction to that would be stronger, milder, or what. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
515
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 13:21:57 -
[1602] - Quote
Quote: (...)We're complaining against any form of microtransactions, and that's pointless because money is a strong motivator and the're going forward with it; (...) Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch. CA is releasing new total war at april. As an addon those who pre-order will get DLC (one of the ingame faction). So game is not even released and they add DLC to it...Something that was cut out from the base and sold out as DLC...I could understand something like SKINs (actually I'm not, paying for hull painted blue is not worth it), but DLC to not released game? CCP can't sell patches as addons, because it won't work. It would slipt game into not connected parts and they want the universe to be homogenic for all. So they have to find new ways of milking us from cash. SP selling idea is so incoherent (for whom?) and full of possible exploits that they have to find other sources. Big expansions may be one (players will come to see what has changed), some possiblities in Aria also, like other currencies for those who don't get paid in euros (it's like 15 euros straight for all euro zone, but average income is different in every country, not to mention middle europe). If selling SP won't work they will have to change skilling system drastically. I have no problem with vanity items, if someone is stupid enough to pay for them, it's good for CCP. Monetizing other aspects is walking on thin ice. but maybe I'm wrong? Maybe it is what gaming community wants? They are paying they are gaining, no time for weakness. CCP is already happy with less playing but more paying. We will see I guess.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
"Here in the garden of the arcane delights dark shadows overwhelm us and and we become blind..."
|
Memphis Baas
998
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 14:37:03 -
[1603] - Quote
Quote:Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch.
Trying to make money is what drives the whole industry forward; you call it a cancer but it's not.
If you feel like spending 5+ years developing a product only to give it away for free, go ahead. We'll then come to your forums and shoot your in-game monuments complaining that you've done a ****** job, and that you should "fix it" for free, because the game is free.
Feel free to rage on, but the reality of the world out there is that things are done for money, and more money often (not always) results in more things done. You're wasting effort, but whatever, go ahead. |
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 15:12:04 -
[1604] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Quote:Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch. Trying to make money is what drives the whole industry forward; you call it a cancer but it's not. If you feel like spending 5+ years developing a product only to give it away for free, go ahead. We'll then come to your forums and shoot your in-game monuments complaining that you've done a ****** job, and that you should "fix it" for free, because the game is free. Feel free to rage on, but the reality of the world out there is that things are done for money, and more money often (not always) results in more things done. You're wasting effort, but whatever, go ahead.
You have conflated "charging" which is fair and expected, with "money grabbing".
They are not giving it away, they are being paid for it already.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
292
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 15:35:09 -
[1605] - Quote
Prices! can we has them? |
Driver
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 15:45:22 -
[1606] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quote:Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch. Trying to make money is what drives the whole industry forward; you call it a cancer but it's not. If you feel like spending 5+ years developing a product only to give it away for free, go ahead. We'll then come to your forums and shoot your in-game monuments complaining that you've done a ****** job, and that you should "fix it" for free, because the game is free. Feel free to rage on, but the reality of the world out there is that things are done for money, and more money often (not always) results in more things done. You're wasting effort, but whatever, go ahead. You have conflated "charging" which is fair and expected, with "money grabbing". They are not giving it away, they are being paid for it already.
No one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy this stuff. And if you feel you need this to be able to compete any more, then that's on you. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
1213
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 15:46:39 -
[1607] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Quote:Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch. Trying to make money is what drives the whole industry forward; you call it a cancer but it's not. If you feel like spending 5+ years developing a product only to give it away for free, go ahead. We'll then come to your forums and shoot your in-game monuments complaining that you've done a ****** job, and that you should "fix it" for free, because the game is free. Feel free to rage on, but the reality of the world out there is that things are done for money, and more money often (not always) results in more things done. You're wasting effort, but whatever, go ahead.
Inb4 "we're making enough money to make it free to play now, no more subscription fees!", and every release after that is 90% new skins
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 15:51:16 -
[1608] - Quote
Cixi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". Char Bazaar is a scaled down version of pay2win with drawbacks. This SP trading is removing those drawbacks making it flat out pay2win which is a huge difference that only the delusional can't seem to grasp. Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints. Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card. lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP.
i have basically pointed that out in multiple posts but most people cant comprehend common sense sadly only way buying a character or sp will give you an advantage is if you also pay an experienced player in RL money or isk to train you how to play as well but even that will be limited as experience takes time and you can buy experience least not with today's technology lol |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 15:58:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Cixi wrote: Player A have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, he waited more than 2 years to get these skillpoints.
Player B have 50 mil SP with which he have perfect skills in a Comet, but he didn't wait 2 years, he bought it all on the market with his credit card.
lets say both have the exact same fit (somehow...). What advantages does player B have over player A ? none
Player A have a serious advantage because he have more experience of PvP.
I love Player A, player B examples, here's my: 2 players, both 0 day newbros Player A don't buy SP packet and just wait to train skills Player B bought and currently flying T3D with T2 modules Now they clash in PvP battle, who has advantage? Player A with propablly his first T1 frig or Player B with T3D? I could do this whole day. When you go faster than others (SP) you are paying to be better. Nobody tell me flying raven is same thing than flying golem, flying T1 hauler than cloaky one, not to mention T3 cruisers. There are artificial thersholds for hulls. I love the argument that it's the experience that is matter the most. Why there are thersholds then? Where's the benefit? How good would be T2 cruiser if I could fly it without high level skills from day 1?
tell that to all the kill mails on the kill boards of people with t1 guns on t1 hulls with meta 4 and some t2 gear taking down ceptors and dictors and stuff all the time i used to take out ceptors all the time as a new player with a mining alt that could barly fly rifter using a mostly t1 fit rifter.
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 16:03:50 -
[1610] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Shova'k wrote:I still have yet to see any proof from all the cry babies claiming this is pay to win when it clearly is not. IT is only pay to save TIME! nothing more same thing we had with character bazaar for many years. You poor delusioned fella. Don't you realize that in Eve, Time equates to XP gained by killing goblins and such in WoW. And now that Time is up for sale which equates to "pay2win". your trolling level is around -5 with that terrible post. pay to win by definition is when you can pay to gain a clear advantage when in eve all you can do is pay to save time and still be terrible at the game. the fact that you mentioned a computer virus as your reference is just pretty terrible WoW is nothing more then a computer virus that should be whipped from existence. also your opinion does not count as proof of a pay to win option that does not exist and will not exist with this new addition nice try tho. @ tiddle jr - I never said buying sp was a good idea :P but it hell it gives the rest of us delicious kill mails in the end Okay fine you wanna get technical, we'll get technical. It's called pay2advance, you happy now. And guess what, it's still breaks the game in the same fashion as pay2win. Again I see only PVP minded players having this delusion that this pay2advance feature is the same as Char Bazaar. The difference between SP trading and char bazaar has already been explained countless time, need it be repeated again??
wrong again since you still have to learn how to play the game its not pay to advance either (still wouldnt hurt the game lol) its pay to save time nothing more nothing less. and you only save 50% of the time since you still have to learn the game gain experience at doing things and learn through failures just like every one else nice try tho. |
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 16:13:25 -
[1611] - Quote
Driver wrote: No one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy this stuff. And if you feel you need this to be able to compete any more, then that's on you.
Correcting an inaccurate statement tells you NOTHING about how I feel about how it will affect me. So stop trying to pretend you are psychic.
|
Neva Second
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 17:13:31 -
[1612] - Quote
Question for the Devs, lets say I buy an injector with the 500k SP's on it, inject some number less than 500k into a player leaving a balance on the injector. Can I then transfer said injector to another toon and remove SP's from him back to the 500k? Or when it changes from "Extractor" to "Injector" does that prevent this? |
Memphis Baas
1000
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 18:22:24 -
[1613] - Quote
You buy an injector with 500k points in it. You have 6m points, so you qualify for the 400k bracket. You right-click the injector and click "Inject." Injector goes to 0, or even gets destroyed / disappears. Your character sheet goes "You now have 400k unallocated points" at the top, in green writing. Then you can right-click on any skill you have and choose "Allocate some points to this skill." |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
1213
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:18:17 -
[1614] - Quote
Here's another question, if I can buy skillpoints via the market, are you going to make a new subscription option that doesn't allow skill training but costs less?
Why expand in one direction but not the other? I should be able to play the game without having to train my character for a lower price.
TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
Youtube ~ Join Us
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:25:53 -
[1615] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quote:Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch. Trying to make money is what drives the whole industry forward; you call it a cancer but it's not. If you feel like spending 5+ years developing a product only to give it away for free, go ahead. We'll then come to your forums and shoot your in-game monuments complaining that you've done a ****** job, and that you should "fix it" for free, because the game is free. Feel free to rage on, but the reality of the world out there is that things are done for money, and more money often (not always) results in more things done. You're wasting effort, but whatever, go ahead. You have conflated "charging" which is fair and expected, with "money grabbing". They are not giving it away, they are being paid for it already.
The concern isn't them choosing to make money. The worry is whether they're trying to make that money fast, or slow.
If they're trying to make it fast, then this whole game might get shut down in a year or two (taking with it whatever investments you - the player - paid.)
The question is: if I pay real money to buy an injector, am I paying to be 400k sp more powerful on a character that I'll be playing for the next decade? Or just the next few months?
Ten years of benefit is worth a lot more to me than 6 months of benefit. If CCP is giving up on the long term, then the real goal of all of this is to cheat me by getting me to pay a lot, intending all along to give me a very small return. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
1071
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:26:17 -
[1616] - Quote
If you really want a cash grab, do this... and then bring back skillpoint loss on pod death. Without bringing back clone insurance. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2501
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:28:28 -
[1617] - Quote
Yet another stupid thing coming from Fozzie's team.
Characters will squeezed like oranges Pay-to-win is the end of an MMO.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:39:02 -
[1618] - Quote
I look forward to this. Now I don't have to get low-balled on that 40 million SP alt that I have on the Character Bazaar. I'll probably extract the alt down to 5 million and then biomass it. Roughly 28 million SPs to throw at my main will be nice. |
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
214
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 20:57:47 -
[1619] - Quote
So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1883
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 21:14:53 -
[1620] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly CCP isn't selling injectors so it's in no way a misleading comment. We for the most part speculate that the injectors will be at or above the PLEX equivalent price for the SP + the extractor cost, but we have no idea how much higher.
|
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 21:17:43 -
[1621] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:I look forward to this. Now I don't have to get low-balled on that 40 million SP alt that I have on the Character Bazaar. I'll probably extract the alt down to 5 million and then biomass it. Roughly 28 million SPs to throw at my main will be nice. If you are just going to biomass the 5M SP "rest", I would happily take that depleted toon (for free). |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
16
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 21:46:29 -
[1622] - Quote
Lol. Yeah. 5 mil Sp characters are perfect SP farms!!
HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly
The only question is how much different will the price of an extractor vs. the price of an injector.
I'm thinking that after a few months it will settle down to be like this:
(Price of extractor) + (1/4 * Price of a Plex) = Price of Injector
Maybe they'll sell for just barely more than that.
For the first few months, though, there will be a "loose change" effect, and a "new product" effect. The loose change will be players with skills they don't need scrubbing them off with extractors, and that might drive down the price a bit. The newness of it may also drive the price up a bit due to people being willing to pay more because of the novelty.
Nothing terribly surprising. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
400
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 22:59:13 -
[1623] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:If you really want a cash grab, do this... and then bring back skillpoint loss on pod death. Without bringing back clone insurance. The new Eve is about removing consequences, not increasing them. Need to keep CCPs new intended audience happy.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 00:02:18 -
[1624] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: If you are just going to biomass the 5M SP "rest", I would happily take that depleted toon (for free).
Would you pay 2 PLEX for the transfer fee ? |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3372
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 00:57:43 -
[1625] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game.
That was CCP Quant. Maker of graph porn extraordinaire
and I am fairly sure he was saying that he was looking forward to how the player driven market will drive the prices of the FULL injectors.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
586
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:14:57 -
[1626] - Quote
Oh, I was so bedazzled by Quant's damn accent & good looks that I'm not even sure what I learned from his SP-trading presentation. Something about players having more characters on their 2nd account and that their 2nd character created tends to be female? What does that have to do with the evils of sp-trading, Quant?? I waited all week for this master class in misdirection.
:) |
|
CCP Quant
C C P C C P Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:42:28 -
[1627] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly
No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. |
|
Cixi
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:46:16 -
[1628] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live.
Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first |
|
CCP Quant
C C P C C P Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:49:04 -
[1629] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote: What does that have to do with the evils of sp-trading, Quant?? I waited all week for this master class in misdirection.
:)
Well the female/male ratios were out of context, just interesting random stats :) The slot-stats might be used as an input into skill point- pool and generation speculation. Initially I actually did include extractor prices, but in the end making them public wasn't my decision to make.
|
|
|
CCP Quant
C C P C C P Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:52:47 -
[1630] - Quote
Cixi wrote:CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first
Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming. |
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1884
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:58:11 -
[1631] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:Yonis Kador wrote: What does that have to do with the evils of sp-trading, Quant?? I waited all week for this master class in misdirection.
:) Well the female/male ratios were out of context, just interesting random stats :) The slot-stats might be used as an input into skill point- pool and generation speculation. Initially I actually did include extractor prices, but in the end making them public wasn't my decision to make. Is someone over there deriving some manner of pleasure from denying us this information? Do they enjoy out rampant and pointless speculation and keeping us on edge?
Are you all sadists? |
Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
317
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 01:59:21 -
[1632] - Quote
It will absolutely be far less than training cost, I fully expect injectors to be only marginally more expensive than extractors. |
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 02:06:19 -
[1633] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming. So CCP condones SP farming as another lucrative isk faucet?? Sweet, I'll never have to pay another cent out of my pockets to play this game ever again.
How about CCP add a skill a player can just automatically train to transfer SP directly to the injector so that you don't need the extractors. That will be the sweetest deal :D. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33256
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 02:08:51 -
[1634] - Quote
I recall a long time ago a Dev said the most (or one of the most) OP things in the game is unallocated SP.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3372
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 02:34:54 -
[1635] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I recall a long time ago a Dev said the most (or one of the most) OP things in the game is unallocated SP.
I think I know what he meant but it is incorrect in essence. Unallocated is unused. It is like a fat isk wallet. If you do not spend it then it has no effect upon the game.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33257
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:04:21 -
[1636] - Quote
Hey mike.
So this was a nice trip down memory lane. A post of mine in response to a proposed skill reassignment mechanic.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5475127#post5475127
Kinda proud to see my opinion on the matter is basically the same after a year.
Quote:Lastly, because the skill system is the same for everyone, it's not necessarily good or bad. It is equal.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Scotsman Howard
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
6
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:06:42 -
[1637] - Quote
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:CCP Quant wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming. So CCP condones SP farming as another lucrative isk faucet?? Sweet, I'll never have to pay another cent out of my pockets to play this game ever again. How about CCP add a skill a player can just automatically train to transfer SP directly to the injector so that you don't need the extractors. That will be the sweetest deal :D.
You belief that this is an isk faucet makes me laugh at your misunderstanding of what an isk faucet is.
For the billionth time, an isk faucet is an activity that creates isk out of thin air. Examples of this are bounty and insurance payouts.
This is not an isk faucet because no new isk is created. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:21:12 -
[1638] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Hey mike. So this was a nice trip down memory lane. A post of mine in response to a proposed skill reassignment mechanic. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5475127#post5475127 Kinda proud to see my opinion on the matter is basically the same after a year. Quote:Lastly, because the skill system is the same for everyone, it's not necessarily good or bad. It is equal.
Nice to see consistency.
Yeah, once USED it is OP.
and I do hope that last quote does not get appliec to the new sp transfers because it is not the same for everyone. unless everyone has the same amount of money (if so, I must have missed that line up)
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33257
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:25:29 -
[1639] - Quote
yeah but higher SP players are supposed to need it less. and it *is* a consistent system.
mike I know there's no way you do this in person. Then no one would talk to you.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:33:41 -
[1640] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:yeah but higher SP players are supposed to need it less. and it *is* a consistent system.
mike I know there's no way you do this in person. Then no one would talk to you.
True, at times my literal side ticks people off. It harks back to the argument that afk cloakers are not a problem because they are afk.
Yes, the ability to switch and turn on a dime, skill wise will be a very very powerful tool.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
|
Memphis Baas
1001
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:48:18 -
[1641] - Quote
It's only a powerful tool if used intelligently, much like officer modules.
Idiot afk cloakers are not a problem; and afk cloakers using predictable ships and tactics are somewhat easy to counter.
Similarly, it kinda depends on what skill you're activating "on a dime" and how you use it to surprise your enemies. Who will then keep track of your new ability and not be surprised a second time.
I expect most people won't try to be sneaky, and will use the system simply to take to 5 some of the skills that they currently have at 4, because they haven't had enough years available to train them to 5 yet, but they want to. So yeah, maybe there will be a few surprise T2 siege modules when they could only fit T1 before, and maybe a few extra km on the ECM, web, or disruptor range of a few T2 cruisers, but otherwise extra 5% bonus from skills would hardly be a great surprise. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
145
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 03:51:18 -
[1642] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I recall a long time ago a Dev said the most (or one of the most) OP things in the game is unallocated SP. I think I know what he meant but it is incorrect in essence. Unallocated is unused. It is like a fat isk wallet. If you do not spend it then it has no effect upon the game. m
I just hope that there's a failsafe in place to prevent mass unpenalized injections that sit unallocated in the reserved bank. Stressed enough to say it twice.
I'll wait to see what the set price is set as. High enough to prevent the sp farming, I hope. ::edit:: At least minimize it.::edit::
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1885
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 04:04:46 -
[1643] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:I just hope that there's a failsafe in place to prevent mass unpenalized injections that sit unallocated in the reserved bank. It was confirmed in the test server thread that both allocated and unallocated SP was counted when determining how much SP an injector gave.
On a related note, CS V is going to be in the queue for the last character I have that lacks it as soon as I'm back in front of my home PC. |
Dynamus Deckerman
Perkone Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 04:07:35 -
[1644] - Quote
Scotsman Howard wrote:CCP Quant wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP Quant wrote:[quote=HeXxploiT]So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent. If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game. No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skilloint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming. So CCP condones SP farming as another lucrative isk faucet?? Sweet, I'll never have to pay another cent out of my pockets to play this game ever again. How about CCP add a skill a player can just automatically train to transfer SP directly to the injector so that you don't need the extractors. That will be the sweetest deal :D. You belief that this is an isk faucet makes me laugh at your misunderstanding of what an isk faucet is. For the billionth time, an isk faucet is an activity that creates isk out of thin air. Examples of this are bounty and insurance payouts. This is not an isk faucet because no new isk is created. Oh umm then this is a bad idea xD. -1 |
Cixi
19
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 05:53:43 -
[1645] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:I just hope that there's a failsafe in place to prevent mass unpenalized injections that sit unallocated in the reserved bank. It was confirmed in the test server thread that both allocated and unallocated SP was counted when determining how much SP an injector gave. On a related note, CS V is going to be in the queue for the last character I have that lacks it as soon as I'm back in front of my home PC.
What is funny is that if you have more than 5mil SP unallocated then you can 0 out all your skills (not sure if this is a bug) |
The Receptionist
Astra Zeneca.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 06:29:35 -
[1646] - Quote
Mindseamstress wrote:Having spent 13 ears in Eve I absolutely detest this idea. Didn't quite take it seriously at first glance as I thought this was making a mockery of Eve but yes... this is obviously being rolled out and again with an emphasis on boosting low SP character.
Rather than wrecking the sandbox yet again it would be nice to see work put into actually expanding the game. Stop tweaking. Stop the bad tweaks in particular. Start delivering more content. Thanks!
My two cents.
After reading pages and pages, this is gthe post that I found to be most applicable.
Sure, this mmight be an OK thing, I'm not sure I agree with a 13 y/o player deciding for newbros whether they should get SP easier ("grrrr back in my day, we had to wait for our SP, and skillques couldn't be longer than 24 hours......")
However this change from a monthly release of small tweaks and stuff rather than yearly releases of cool new content is cancer. Hopefully the citadel patch will be cool enough to bring back that feel of the old patches but time spent on constant rebalancing is time taken away from providing new content. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4280
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 07:10:48 -
[1647] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Here's another question, if I can buy skillpoints via the market, are you going to make a new subscription option that doesn't allow skill training but costs less?
Why expand in one direction but not the other? I should be able to play the game without having to train my character for a lower price. You already will be able to do just that!
It's an interesting consequence of the new system, that apparently not many people have realized so far:
1. Get 1-month sub with your own money (cash or PLEX) 2. Gain SP, even though you do not want it for yourself 3. Sell all of that SP, get ISK 4. Use ISK to puy PLEX (you may or may not have to add some of your own ISK to get a full PLEX out of 1 month SP, depending on market prices; still it's highly probable that 1 month SP will allow you to fund at least 80-90% of a PLEX) 5. Play for free, or at least play 'at a discount'
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
The Receptionist
Astra Zeneca.
7
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 11:47:48 -
[1648] - Quote
Personally, I am curious about how players will value SP as well. Personally I hope an empty injector is dirt cheap, so that it's very easy to clean up SP on your own characters and fix SP you wasted early on when you didn't know better on skills that you never use.
However I hope that a full injector is super expensive as valued by player market, so that it's much more expensive to use these to build character up from scratch. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
145
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 12:00:29 -
[1649] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Here's another question, if I can buy skillpoints via the market, are you going to make a new subscription option that doesn't allow skill training but costs less?
Why expand in one direction but not the other? I should be able to play the game without having to train my character for a lower price. You already will be able to do just that! It's an interesting consequence of the new system, that apparently not many people have realized so far: 1. Get 1-month sub with your own money (cash or PLEX) 2. Gain SP, even though you do not want it for yourself 3. Sell all of that SP, get ISK 4. Use ISK to puy PLEX (you may or may not have to add some of your own ISK to get a full PLEX out of 1 month SP, depending on market prices; still it's highly probable that 1 month SP will allow you to fund at least 80-90% of a PLEX) 5. Play for free, or at least play 'at a discount'
I have two alts that do indie for me on the extra two slots. One was transferred, the other skilled up while my main was paused. In a way, you can already do this.
The scenario Gulley is painting is the one I nearly lost my **** trying to explain until Tristan slapped a little sense into my babbling.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Officer Pressly
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 13:33:42 -
[1650] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Quote:Money grabbing is a cancer of the whole gaming branch. Trying to make money is what drives the whole industry forward; you call it a cancer but it's not. If you feel like spending 5+ years developing a product only to give it away for free, go ahead. We'll then come to your forums and shoot your in-game monuments complaining that you've done a ****** job, and that you should "fix it" for free, because the game is free. Feel free to rage on, but the reality of the world out there is that things are done for money, and more money often (not always) results in more things done. You're wasting effort, but whatever, go ahead. You have conflated "charging" which is fair and expected, with "money grabbing". They are not giving it away, they are being paid for it already.
This comming from a group of players that denies its members to fly anything but frigates, and only enables them to fly cruisers after a couple months. I think you are just afraid this will ruin your type of keeping your members the way you want them kept. |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3241
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 13:43:59 -
[1651] - Quote
double post
This is not a signature.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3241
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 13:45:12 -
[1652] - Quote
The Receptionist wrote:Ignore dis post
Golly - do you work for AZ?
I do
This is not a signature.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
295
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 14:36:32 -
[1653] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live.
i'm sorry, but when are you guys announcing the prices of the extractors? why this "secret"? in about 10 days we will have these things on live server and none know the price yet. wth is going on? |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 14:57:08 -
[1654] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming.
SP Farming will lead down to RMT as going to get many farming it, going to ruin the way eve is played as a game push it more over to Pay to Win |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2510
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 15:40:40 -
[1655] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Quote:Lastly, because the skill system is the same for everyone, it's not necessarily good or bad. It is equal. Except that the access to that system is not equal. Time, ISK and $.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4474
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 16:19:59 -
[1656] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Here's another question, if I can buy skillpoints via the market, are you going to make a new subscription option that doesn't allow skill training but costs less?
Why expand in one direction but not the other? I should be able to play the game without having to train my character for a lower price. You already will be able to do just that! It's an interesting consequence of the new system, that apparently not many people have realized so far: 1. Get 1-month sub with your own money (cash or PLEX) 2. Gain SP, even though you do not want it for yourself 3. Sell all of that SP, get ISK 4. Use ISK to puy PLEX (you may or may not have to add some of your own ISK to get a full PLEX out of 1 month SP, depending on market prices; still it's highly probable that 1 month SP will allow you to fund at least 80-90% of a PLEX) 5. Play for free, or at least play 'at a discount'
No. There is still the opportunity cost of not getting the better/new skills.
Just because something does not involved some sort of currency does not mean there is no cost.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4474
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 16:23:32 -
[1657] - Quote
Suede wrote:
SP Farming will lead down to RMT as going to get many farming it, going to ruin the way eve is played as a game push it more over to Pay to Win
The desperate claim of someone who has no legs to stand on. Why would SP farming be any more likely to lead to RMT than any other ISK generating activity in game?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
58
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 16:42:32 -
[1658] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. Then how about spilling this key bit of information?!
It's fairly obvious what's going to happen with the prices of the SP part. Obvious enough that I will happily bet some ISK on that through speculative investment. I'm more uncertain about the PLEX price fluctuations that will occur.
The key unknown variable is however the price that you will arbitrarily set for the extractor. This will determine who is in the market, and how fast it will move.
In the real world, a fair guess can be made about the price of any new device in terms of the materials, tech, R&D cost and labour. Since however these devices will drop inexplicably from the sky into the AUR store, we really know nothing about them.
Frankly, a price that would make sense in terms of existing in-game technology would be "considerably less than it costs to create a new jump clone". Or perhaps "not more than the most expensive skill injection (via a skill book)". A price that would make sense within the game world is hence somewhere between a few thousand ISK to perhaps thirty million ISK or so.
Yet somehow I get the feeling that an extractor price conforming properly to current in-game technology - of about 0.01-10 AUR - is not on the cards...
So what are you going to charge? |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2087
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 16:44:22 -
[1659] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: No. There is still the opportunity cost of not getting the better/new skills.
Just because something does not involved some sort of currency does not mean there is no cost.
There are a lot of specialized alts who don't need a lot of SP. So why should I subscribe them if I can PLEX them with the ISK I get for the SP I dont need anyway? This will indeed result in free alts.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
58
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 16:50:59 -
[1660] - Quote
gascanu wrote:i'm sorry, but when are you guys announcing the prices of the extractors? why this "secret"? in about 10 days we will have these things on live server and none know the price yet. wth is going on? Take a peek at the PLEX store. This PLEX sale will end on the 31st of January. I wouldn't be surprised if the the extractor prices become known on the 1st of February. But then I'm cynical...
By the way, skill extractors and injectors are live on Singularity. You can watch JonnyPew using the new system in this Skill Transfer Video (YouTube). |
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
145
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 17:02:02 -
[1661] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: No. There is still the opportunity cost of not getting the better/new skills.
Just because something does not involved some sort of currency does not mean there is no cost.
There are a lot of specialized alts who don't need a lot of SP. So why should I subscribe them if I can PLEX them with the ISK I get for the SP I dont need anyway? This will indeed result in free alts.
I'd hate to say, I told you so. The biggest difference between the injector and plex is complex. Plex is pretty straight forward: You pay a slight increase of the value of a single month of subscription at the most expensive package rate, by single month. Extractors, on the other hand, shares a relationship with plex indirectly by the very thing only plex can provide: The SP of an active skill queue.
The amount of Isk in game is something we cannot determine. The existence of pilots that can sub their accounts for untold years exist, but what would be the incentive for this? Whether they are kept active on a monthly basis or yearly, there is no difference. Now, with extractors, you've introduced not only a sink for this, but a motivator for what has accumulated over the years for no other purpose than that it could. The value of SP cannot be determined, because every pilot has different goals, expectations, ambitions. Some will have little value for SP while others would give all their attention to it. That it's why it can destabilize and go whichever way. Set it low cost and you introduce chaos into the system. Nothing can predict what will happen on the whole.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Amanda Orion
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
94
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 17:08:55 -
[1662] - Quote
Officer Pressly wrote:
This comming from a group of players that denies its members to fly anything but frigates, and only enables them to fly cruisers after a couple months. I think you are just afraid this will ruin your type of keeping your members the way you want them kept.
The Open University of Celestial Hardship is a training corp!
We do not "keep" our members, we train them, and they move on to other corps, many of which respect our methods and welcome our graduates.
Our mission is to train people who are new to PVP, and to show them that you do not have to use or lose expensive ships to take your first steps into null sec.
Those who prefer to fly and lose expensive ships while learning do not need our help to do so.
|
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
23
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 17:29:06 -
[1663] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly
I'm not really sure it'll reach PLEX prices. The whole thing is geared towards new players whom are typically poor and can't really afford PLEX for ISK to begin with. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
104
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 17:34:02 -
[1664] - Quote
Rofl at all the pay2win qq. This is not pay2win. Plex is more pay2win than this. Plex enables pilots to afford modules and ships they might not be able to afford otherwise and bypass virtually all aspects of the eve pve system if one chooses. This change to the skill point system simply allows pilots to have more options to fly at an increased rate then previously allowed. It's not like injectors inject real life piloting skill to the user lol. For years vets have stated "skill points don't matter real lifepilot skill does". Now lots of these same people are whining. Honestly the skill point system in its current iteration is so antiquated at this point I'm surprised it hasn't evolved sooner.
That said the main selling point from CCP has been this is for new players. So here's to hoping you keep your word and set the aurum price cheap enough that it actually allows newbros to take advantage of this change. |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
14
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 18:05:01 -
[1665] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Rofl at all the pay2win qq. This is not pay2win. Plex is more pay2win than this. Plex enables pilots to afford modules and ships they might not be able to afford otherwise and bypass virtually all aspects of the eve pve system if one chooses. Except they couldn't use them without the required skill points. Now they can just buy those as well. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
145
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 19:10:49 -
[1666] - Quote
Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.
You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 19:39:23 -
[1667] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.
You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise. This is a non-issue, I have perfect pilots for most of those use cases NOW while still having even more perfect use cases and NO extractor cost to realize them. What you're basically saying is that players being able to have perfect skills for a given ship is broken, but that makes training itself broken over time. And ignores that brokenness is already realized.
You're also contradicting your prior point regarding low extractor prices causing manipulation that results in general unaffordability. How can we have enough of these perfect skilled pilots floating around when per your claim SP won't be available to keep those SP swaps from shriveling the total SP those characters have and lack the ability to purchase more?
Also to your prior post no, PLEX is not just game time anymore. It's also an AUR souce, meaning it's price reflects demand from every possible use including extractor purchase, meaning that the higher the extractor cost, the more strain there is on PLEX. If PLEXing for a "free" account by selling SP becomes a norm through being economically viable rest assured high extractor prices WILL NOT BE A DETERING FACTOR beyond how much you have to invest before the first extractor purchase. After that every sale pays you back that cost to spend again on the next one on top of gains for PLEXing game time.
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 19:57:30 -
[1668] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:we know the extractor prices
When are you going to tell us then? |
Josef Djugashvilis
3241
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 21:13:44 -
[1669] - Quote
Dibz wrote:CCP Quant wrote:we know the extractor prices When are you going to tell us then?
They want you to hand over your wallet before they tell you
This is not a signature.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
295
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 21:44:32 -
[1670] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dibz wrote:CCP Quant wrote:we know the extractor prices When are you going to tell us then? They want you to hand over your wallet before they tell you
more like they are not sure how high can push the price before causing some uproar... |
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
146
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 21:55:33 -
[1671] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.
You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise. This is a non-issue, I have perfect pilots for most of those use cases NOW while still having even more perfect use cases and NO extractor cost to realize them. What you're basically saying is that players being able to have perfect skills for a given ship is broken, but that makes training itself broken over time. And ignores that brokenness is already realized.
You seem to apply all deductions to yourself. It has nothing to do with you but everything to do with the new pilots or the alts that they can create on the 2nd or 3rd box of a single account, all while training up their main to do whatever it is they wish. The ping goes out, they sign off and back on to their un-paid alt with perfect skills in a ship that is ALWAYS going to be useful. This has changed the landscape of warfare by increasing the value and potential of every new pilot, thus making an already exceptional force even more powerful.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:You're also contradicting your prior point regarding low extractor prices causing manipulation that results in general unaffordability. How can we have enough of these perfect skilled pilots floating around when per your claim SP won't be available to keep those SP swaps from shriveling the total SP those characters have and lack the ability to purchase more?
Like I said before, one thing applies to the short term, another thing entirely to the long term. Availability of the injectors will be just stupid. Whey even make an estimation? It is a given. If they are cheap, be ready for the floodgates to open. The lowest they will go for will determined by how valuable they are to the rich and not how many there will be.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Also to your prior post no, PLEX is not just game time anymore. It's also an AUR souce, meaning it's price reflects demand from every possible use including extractor purchase, meaning that the higher the extractor cost, the more strain there is on PLEX. If PLEXing for a "free" account by selling SP becomes a norm through being economically viable rest assured high extractor prices WILL NOT BE A DETERING FACTOR beyond how much you have to invest before the first extractor purchase. After that every sale pays you back that cost to spend again on the next one on top of gains for PLEXing game time.
I give it one year until those who plex will not be able to afford the plex, and those that plex will reach a frustration point that they refuse to plex, leading to even higher costs and scarcity. At this point it is the 1% that will truly shine and perhaps be the only source for the SP farming, as their accounts will be paid far in advance that they will have little concern over state of affairs with PLEX economy. If I were they, I would reserve my brain drains and pick up the cheap extractors from every other nub that sells cheaply in the offset.
In conclusion. The fact that we are having a discussion about SP farming as a renewable income stream says more about how you just do not understand that this outcome is bad and that it is unavoidable with a low cost extractor.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 22:24:38 -
[1672] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:[You seem to apply all deductions to yourself. It has nothing to do with you but everything to do with the new pilots or the alts that they can create on the 2nd or 3rd box of a single account, all while training up their main to do whatever it is they wish. The ping goes out, they sign off and back on to their un-paid alt with perfect skills in a ship that is ALWAYS going to be useful. This has changed the landscape of warfare by increasing the value and potential of every new pilot, thus making an already exceptional force even more powerful. It's no different whether it's me or another character. It's it's not broken for a character to max out a ship it's not broken for every character to max out that same ship. That doesn't change based on point of context or number of alts. It also draw no relevance from method of payment, and do remember all accounts are paid.
Further the ability to enhance usefulness of characters is an intended consequence.
Quote:Like I said before, one thing applies to the short term, another thing entirely to the long term. Availability of the injectors will be just stupid. Whey even make an estimation? It is a given. If they are cheap, be ready for the floodgates to open. The lowest they will go for will determined by how valuable they are to the rich and not how many there will be...
...I give it one year until those who plex will not be able to afford the plex, and those that plex will reach a frustration point that they refuse to plex, leading to even higher costs and scarcity. At this point it is the 1% that will truly shine and perhaps be the only source for the SP farming, as their accounts will be paid far in advance that they will have little concern over state of affairs with PLEX economy. If I were they, I would reserve my brain drains and pick up the cheap extractors from every other nub that sells cheaply in the offset.
In conclusion. The fact that we are having a discussion about SP farming as a renewable income stream says more about how you just do not understand that this outcome is bad and that it is unavoidable with a low cost extractor. The fact that you think a high extractor price prevents or reduces farming evidences how you just don't understand the mechanics at play. Extractors could be a whole PLEX each and not affect the method of farming. It just means I need 1.2B to begin and price the injector at or over ~ 1.6B. Now I've made my next extractor purchase and part of the next PLEX. Repeat as SP becomes available and adjust sale price for PLEX price changes.
And here's the irony in your plan. PLEX gives AUR, AUR buys extractors, so higher AUR cost per extractor means more PLEX consumed per farmer, which means more upward drive on PLEX prices. @ 500AUR/extractor that means each farmer consumes ~1.6 PLEX/month. @ 100AUR that drops to 1.1 PLEX/month. You're trying to sell the idea that an over 40% increase in PLEX use per farmer somehow leads to more affordable PLEX?
Or do you just think farming will be reduced by a high AUR price? That someone won't won't ride PLEX prices to the highest possible point, and be fuether assisted with manipulated price points on injectors, which would be further enabled from limited stock due to a lack of farmers? High extractor costs are a no win. There's no situation where they play out to a majority benefit for anyone invilved with extractors, injectors or PLEX. Well, actually sellers of PLEX will make out like bandits because the high AUR cost just increases all manner of demand for their product. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
147
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 22:43:29 -
[1673] - Quote
It's their ratio in respects to PLEX. If the income is offset by a margin then the viability of SP farming is reduced because more comes out of pocket to sustain the farming. I don't know who it was that thinks there will be many directly paid accounts that are SP farming focused.
Worst case scenario is when plex begins to sell at a loss from when it was purchased. Also, if the extractors sell low, the injectors will be in high demand because of their price point. Now, I don't consider myself Eve rich, but even I will use them if they are 300m. Why not? That, sir, is the ultimate question. Price will dictate demand and any noob that is desperate and impatient will see they are worth the investment of money, even if it is at twice the cost of just waiting on the paid sub. It will still serve its role but not be so widely abused.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 22:48:42 -
[1674] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:It's their ratio in respects to PLEX. If the income is offset by a margin then the viability of SP farming is reduced because more comes out of pocket to sustain the farming. I don't know who it was that thinks there will be many directly paid accounts that are SP farming focused.
Worst case scenario is when plex begins to sell at a loss from when it was purchased. Also, if the extractors sell low, the injectors will be in high demand because of their price point. Now, I don't consider myself Eve rich, but even I will use them if they are 300m. Why not? That, sir, is the ultimate question. Price will dictate demand and any noob that is desperate and impatient will see they are worth the investment of money, even if it is at twice the cost of just waiting on the paid sub. It will still serve its role but not be so widely abused. That assumes the cost isn't passed on to the market. There doesn't seem to be any reason to make that assumption unless you're assuming a near-fixed injector price. If you view them as elastic you have to consider the possibility that they just expand to any added cost, especially with the high point of initial demand.
|
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 22:52:57 -
[1675] - Quote
Dibz wrote:CCP Quant wrote:we know the extractor prices When are you going to tell us then? It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4601
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 23:11:49 -
[1676] - Quote
Natsuko Kanami wrote:Dibz wrote:CCP Quant wrote:we know the extractor prices When are you going to tell us then? It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101.
At 1,000 AUR, your best choice would be to spend 20 Gé¼/$ in a 3,600 AUR package. With the premium of 435 AUR that would be 4,035 AUR / 4 extractors +35 AUR for the price of a PLEX, and would render the 900 AUR package completely uninteresting for skill trading.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
757
|
Posted - 2016.01.29 23:12:19 -
[1677] - Quote
Dibz wrote:CCP Quant wrote:we know the extractor prices When are you going to tell us then?
They like a child who just broken his toy but scared to tell about his parents. |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 00:04:58 -
[1678] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:At 1,000 AUR, your best choice would be to spend 20 Gé¼/$ in a 3,600 AUR package. With the premium of 435 AUR that would be 4,035 AUR / 4 extractors +35 AUR for the price of a PLEX, and would render the 900 AUR package completely uninteresting for skill trading. True, but that's assuming everyone will be buying these with cash. I imagine a large percentage of players who don't have a lot of IRL cash will be buying PLEX via ISK and converting to AUR. And you can be sure that CCP has the exact numbers of people paying subscriptions via cash vs ISK and have taken that into account. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
213
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 01:17:54 -
[1679] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.
You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.
It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such. Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match. Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
213
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 01:19:40 -
[1680] - Quote
Maybe they will sell 'fatigue-reduction' injectors too... |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 01:20:54 -
[1681] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.
You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise. It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such. Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match. Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required. I suppose than means most won't be able to play then? Because it's pretty much impossible for that to happen.
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
213
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 01:37:37 -
[1682] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.
You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise. It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such. Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match. Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required. I suppose than means most won't be able to play then? Because it's pretty much impossible for that to happen. For that matter why hasn't it happened already. Does no one think anyone else trains skills to level 5 as is?
As just one example A new ship is released (ie T3 Destroyer, T2 command, etc). Fleets can now train up as soon as the skillbooks hit the market and gain a significant advantage over their opponents, who are passively training.
I can think of many examples where the wealth to afford SP injectors will be a huge advantage. Stop being so narrow minded...sigh... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 01:42:53 -
[1683] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:As just one example A new ship is released (ie T3 Destroyer, T2 command, etc). Fleets can now train up as soon as the skillbooks hit the market and gain a significant advantage over their opponents, who are passively training.
I can think of many examples where the wealth to afford SP injectors will be a huge advantage. Stop being so narrow minded...sigh... Who's arguing it won't be an advantage?
I'm trying to figure out where and how it would be a mandate, as you claimed.
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
759
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 01:44:08 -
[1684] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Maybe they will sell 'fatigue-reduction' injectors too...
They should bring back clones with SP limits and SP loss upon podded if clone not upgraded. At some level this should compensate upcoming massive SP flow. |
MAS0RAKSH
Black Serpent Technologies The-Culture
1
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 05:59:46 -
[1685] - Quote
112 injectors to go from 5mil to 50mil SP
100 injectors to move along from 50mil SP to 80mil SP
1466 imjectors to go from 80mil SP to 300mil SP
It would be sad to see an alliance, out of sheer spite or amusement, create 1700 injectors in 84 days (training new alt up is easy peasy), and then see http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dr_Caymus with his 286,519,976 million earned skillpoints from May 16, 2003 at 22:51:00 in the evening to the moments before some newbro toon named after someone's **** injects 1700 SP boosters for 300 mil SP.
Game ******* Over. 1 day old toon just wrecked eve; 84 days later another 300mil Sp toon, and 84 after that another... Imagine the hell this is going to play with the game because your players love ******* over your well intentioned features in ways illegal in 97 nations until you realize you unleased a monster. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
148
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 06:06:41 -
[1686] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That assumes the cost isn't passed on to the market. There doesn't seem to be any reason to make that assumption unless you're assuming a near-fixed injector price. If you view them as elastic you have to consider the possibility that they just expand to any added cost, especially with the high point of initial demand.
I can only speculate about the minimum fixed price, being attractive near half the value of the injector SP against the monthly value of a plex in its respective training time. I don't think I'm wrong to think there will be a consistent buy order of at least 200-250 mil. But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term. I believe supply can keep up with demand initially, due to the large number of SP currently unwanted, unused, or primed for selling. So high demand is driving both the seller and high supply the buyer. And much like petrol in the states being $2 bucks a gallon, it is not a sustainable resource in its present form. Neither will SP be due to its unique association with plex and the training time on which it relies to exist and to also be created through. It is Pizza The Hut devouring its cheap delicious self.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 06:18:19 -
[1687] - Quote
The cost aside, I believe if someone artificially enhances there character via SP injection(s) that should be reflected in that characters info, if not it's close to game breaking in my opinion.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
214
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 06:25:48 -
[1688] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live.
Yeah...no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the desirability of this item will be through the roof. Will easily surpass skin purchases in time(which I know is currently 500,000+). People will dump buckets of both $$$ and isk into this particularly at the start. I know right off the top of my head where I could spend 20,000,000 SP.
SP will be the gold pressed latinum of Eve. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 06:43:09 -
[1689] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That assumes the cost isn't passed on to the market. There doesn't seem to be any reason to make that assumption unless you're assuming a near-fixed injector price. If you view them as elastic you have to consider the possibility that they just expand to any added cost, especially with the high point of initial demand.
I can only speculate about the minimum fixed price, being attractive near half the value of the injector SP against the monthly value of a plex in its respective training time. I don't think I'm wrong to think there will be a consistent buy order of at least 200-250 mil. But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term. I believe supply can keep up with demand initially, due to the large number of SP currently unwanted, unused, or primed for selling. So high demand is driving both the seller and high supply the buyer. And much like petrol in the states being $2 bucks a gallon, it is not a sustainable resource in its present form. Neither will SP be due to its unique association with plex and the training time on which it relies to exist and to also be created through. It is Pizza The Hut devouring its cheap delicious self. You're expectation only seems to take into account an estimated cost rather than demand, and I'm not sure demand will be met by the initial influx of SP, especially since one can renew demand just by rolling an alt. It will likely taper in time, but it won't be immediate and we have diminishing returns working against the effects of that initial stock. I don't think we'll be working with a floored price from the start.
But that really doesn't address the lack of benefit for a high extractor price. In order for that "waste" SP you're referring to to hit the market, the SP market has to be gainful, which means a more than marginal return after the extractor cost is accounted for, which means if a high extractor cost pushed profitable injector costs beyond willingness to buy, that surge of injectors doesn't happen and their availability fails.
And realistically a high extractor price just pushes up PLEX that much higher, looking again at a 500AUR price vs 100AUR, unless the response with the 500AUR extractor is 20% of what it would have been with the 100AUR price point the upward effect on PLEX prices is greater. It's simple math. It doesn't mean PLEX can't go up, just that if it does, which is very likely, it happens slower than with a high extractor price.
It's simple, every demand for more AUR just pushes PLEX further up as a source of AUR. A high extractor cost is more demand for AUR than a low extractor one unless you're so high that you stop players from actually shedding their spare SP. Also you penalize use not related to selling. People using it as an SP remap have only the extractor cost and efficiency loss to be concerned about and don't contribute or detract from farming yet would be adversely affected by a high price. No one wins here. |
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
214
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 06:46:27 -
[1690] - Quote
Another thing I just realized.
The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible. |
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 08:29:52 -
[1691] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:Another thing I just realized.
The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible.
It has not been possible on one character. But it is naive to think that these trillionaires does not have access to all skills divided between alts now. Especially with the character bazar and all. People assume it is an advantage to have everything on one char but it is not really imo, as you cannot do all activities at once in this case. If you multibox more chars it is more powerfull. So I would rather expect to see more alts when SP trading arrives
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2031
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 08:50:28 -
[1692] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:Another thing I just realized.
The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible. It has not been possible on one character. But it is naive to think that these trillionaires does not have access to all skills divided between alts now. Especially with the character bazar and all. People assume it is an advantage to have everything on one char but it is not really imo, as you cannot do all activities at once in this case. If you multibox more chars it is more powerfull. So I would rather expect to see more alts when SP trading arrives
Just wait until we reach a tipping point in terms of perfect alts online. Then we'll start getting moe and more calls to get rid of skills all together...'for the newbies' of course... |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
295
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 09:14:54 -
[1693] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:Another thing I just realized.
The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible.
i don't get it; why should this be a "problem"? if someone wants to spend some hundred billions for his "all lvl V" char, well, how is that affecting me? it's not like we play "duels online" or something; he can only fly one ship at a time, you know? how will " trade lvl V" affect his pvp "advantage" ? if done, it will be done for bragging rights on forums, and if someone spends that much money for that, well, who give a s**t? |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
59
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 11:10:57 -
[1694] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term. In the short term things will be nuts. But in the long term, SP farms are near perfect farms. You can increase or decrease production almost arbitrarily. More demand? Increase the number of alts. Less demand? Stop PLEXing some alts. Importantly, those alts do not decay or anything like that. When demand comes back, just PLEX them again. On top of that there is absolutely zero risk. You can station all you SP farm alts right in the trade hub where you want to sell. Neither you nor your alts ever have to undock or do anything that could expose you to risk. People talk of shooting ships with tons of SP injectors as cargo. I doubt that we will see much of that. If you have to ship many SP injectors, then you are doing something wrong.
The only thing mildly annoying here are the long time constants. You need to train a fresh alt up to 5.5M SP, and that takes months. But once you have a stable of alts it's not an issue. You can train up a "reserve" of alts, a bit like electricity companies have reserve power plants to switch on when demand goes on. They cost you nothing past the initial investment. Furthermore, you can only PLEX for a month, so if the market shifts you reaction time is slow. Though on a big SP farm this can be mitigated by "staggered" PLEXing (Alt 1's subscription starts on day 1, Alt 2's subscription starts on day 2, ...). If demand drops, you can then decrease your output daily.
If you have say 10 alts with >5.5M now, you are sitting on an ISK printing machine. Look at the prices of the level +5 implants. They have all been steadily increasing. I bet smart people are getting their SP farms set up right now, and will pump SP in the market from day one (at least if demand outstrips supply from "unwanted" SP that people just strip off characters to make them "perfect").
Personally, I don't have an army of alts. And I don't have the cash/ISK to buy them, or to start training dozens of alts for a few months to get them over the SP threshold. The initial investment is killing me, or I would be setting up a SP farm as well.
But if anyone wants to donate a >5.5M SP alt or two to me, I will happily take them! |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
17
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 11:29:55 -
[1695] - Quote
Yeah. True. PVP is one ship at a time.
If you if you can get a character to max gunnery, drones, tanking sensory and navigation on one ship, who cares what other ships that same character knows? So with a focused character, somewhere around 50 mil sp (maybe even less) your PVP skills peak, and then never go up after that.
CCP Quant wrote:Cixi wrote:CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live. Well the maximum price for SP will be 0.25, if the composite price for injector is more than that, people will start SP farms, it will most likely be less than that, at least at first Yeah we can already see from the character bazaar that people are willing to sell SPs below training cost. The upper limit depends a bit on supply and demand, but as you say, if the conditions are favorable, players will turn to SP farming.
The reason for that is less than ideal builds, and characters with no remaps.
I wish on the 07 analysis they had taken number of remaining remaps into account, because that would have been revealing.
With Injectors, the ideal-ness of a build is determined by how many injectors you would need to get them to ideal. You won't see "wasted SP" in characters that get offered on the Character Bazaar anymore.
The Receptionist wrote:Personally, I am curious about how players will value SP as well. Personally I hope an empty injector is dirt cheap, so that it's very easy to clean up SP on your own characters and fix SP you wasted early on when you didn't know better on skills that you never use.
However I hope that a full injector is super expensive as valued by player market, so that it's much more expensive to use these to build character up from scratch.
The price difference will be equal to : (1 Plex) * (Number of SP you can train per month)/500,000 + a small markup.
There is really no basis for the devs to be seriously wondering about this. That formula will be exactly what happens after a few months of time.
What happens to the price of a PLEX will be interesting to see, though. It will mostly likely rise. The only question is how much will it rise?
|
Memphis Baas
1003
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 13:41:41 -
[1696] - Quote
MAS0RAKSH wrote:112 injectors to go from 5mil to 50mil SP 100 injectors to move along from 50mil SP to 80mil SP 1466 imjectors to go from 80mil SP to 300mil SP It would be sad to see an alliance, out of sheer spite or amusement, create 1700 injectors in 84 days (training new alt up is easy peasy), and then see http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dr_Caymus with his 286,519,976 million earned skillpoints from May 16, 2003 at 22:51:00 in the evening to the moments before some newbro toon named after someone's **** injects 1700 SP boosters for 300 mil SP. Game ******* Over. 1 day old toon just wrecked EVE
It's not game over by any means. Dr Caymus will just realize something that we already know: that he WASTED 13 ******* years of his life and $1742 on subscriptions on a game. On pixels. And now "some alliance" can pay to the tune of $17,000, 10 times as much, to bypass his meaningless skillpoint total, showing him proof that it's totally meaningless and a complete ******* WASTE.
As far as Dr Caymus vs. the "newbro", if they pay that much, then the newbro is someone's nephew in that alliance, and thus has the backing of a WHOLE DAMN ALLIANCE should the fight between the two ever happen. That's what you said in your example. Dr Caymus will be the scrub in that little fight.
|
Memphis Baas
1003
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 13:50:30 -
[1697] - Quote
In any case, this being the comments thread for the feature they're releasing:
CCP please save us some clicking and don't make the Extractor window disappear after each 500k points, if we have a stack of extractors. Or even better, give the ability to extract multiples at the same time, like with Injectors, just extend the 500k box where we drag skills, to include the total points required for the number of Extractors we have in the stack. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6934
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 15:37:48 -
[1698] - Quote
I like this idea that everyone will somehow endlessly plex infinite amounts by farming SP.
Now no one will need to sub or buy plex from ccp ever...
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Memphis Baas
1005
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 15:39:38 -
[1699] - Quote
No, just pay $5 in Aurum fees to CCP per skill extractor, which, if you calculate, is about double the price of a subscription. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6934
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 16:03:13 -
[1700] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:No, just pay $5 in Aurum fees to CCP per skill extractor, which, if you calculate, is about double the price of a subscription. Well then some people have been miscalculating then huh
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
Kalgeroth
The Monocled Elite
4
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 16:33:21 -
[1701] - Quote
why do many people assume the cost of the injectors will be a simple AUR -> ISK conversion?
like players are going to give away 500k SP for free...
500k SP currently nets you about 250m in the character bazaar...if SP farmers want ISK and can't get it through extraction, they'll sell the character instead |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6934
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 16:46:50 -
[1702] - Quote
The SP you trained yourself is free apparently, some people think in odd ways
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 18:00:55 -
[1703] - Quote
Natsuko Kanami wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Rofl at all the pay2win qq. This is not pay2win. Plex is more pay2win than this. Plex enables pilots to afford modules and ships they might not be able to afford otherwise and bypass virtually all aspects of the eve pve system if one chooses. Except they couldn't use them without the required skill points. Now they can just buy those as well.
And? |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4602
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 18:53:44 -
[1704] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:No, just pay $5 in Aurum fees to CCP per skill extractor, which, if you calculate, is about double the price of a subscription.
Not really. The price of a subscription can buy you 2700 AUR (3x 900 AUR packages @ 5Gé¼/$) whereas the price of a PLEX can buy you 4035 AUR (1x 3600 AUR package @ 20 Gé¼/$ + 435 AUR bonus),
That's why I estimate that the AUR cost of extractors will be between the 900 AUR package and 1/4 of the second tier package (4035 AUR).
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 19:11:01 -
[1705] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:No, just pay $5 in Aurum fees to CCP per skill extractor, which, if you calculate, is about double the price of a subscription. Not really. The price of a subscription can buy you 2700 AUR (3x 900 AUR packages @ 5Gé¼/$) whereas the price of a PLEX can buy you 4035 AUR (1x 3600 AUR package @ 20 Gé¼/$ + 435 AUR bonus), That's why I estimate that the AUR cost of extractors will be between the 900 AUR package and 1/4 of the second tier package (4035 AUR). I'm still of the thought that this way of thinking is more double charging rather that applying a fee for the ability to transfer. PLEX aren't $30 each vs a sub's $15, so an injector which costs 1/4th a month to make the SP for should have another 1/4th a months cost for the extractor on top of that seems less than justified.
If it costs more than 350AUR it becomes proportionately more expensive than the base prices of PLEX vs sub time. |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
184
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 21:21:09 -
[1706] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:sero Hita wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:Another thing I just realized.
The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible. It has not been possible on one character. But it is naive to think that these trillionaires does not have access to all skills divided between alts now. Especially with the character bazar and all. People assume it is an advantage to have everything on one char but it is not really imo, as you cannot do all activities at once in this case. If you multibox more chars it is more powerfull. So I would rather expect to see more alts when SP trading arrives Just wait until we reach a tipping point in terms of perfect alts online. Then we'll start getting moe and more calls to get rid of skills all together...'for the newbies' of course...
Eve has a built in equalizer that is all skills top out at level 5, if I excelled at pvp (which I do not) and have the skills that I already have, I would not fear going head to head with a max SP character in a fair fight because I know he/she would be on par with me in the skill set that we would be using at that particular time.
But with that said I'm extremely opposed to SP trading though, I believe it will give an unfair advantage over players who don't have the resources to artificially enhance there character compaired to one who has more expendable RL money, that relates more to newer players than someone who has been playing for many years.
If this would go live Monday and the information I understand to be accurate is implemented I could theoretically have a 100 mill SP newb toon by downtime, that takes in account the SP I have on unsubbed accounts and liquid ISK I would be willing to part with, in my eyes that's pay to win as how can a similar newb compete with that if they don't have the RL resources to do so.
The kick in the nuts would be that all that injected SP could very well be hidden from everybody that don't have access to the full API of that newb toon.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Memphis Baas
1006
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 22:50:02 -
[1707] - Quote
Alea wrote:[...]in my eyes that's pay to win[...]
The kick in the nuts would be that all that injected SP could very well be hidden from everybody that don't have access to the full API of that character.
And, in my opinion it's not pay to win because:
- You inject the SP and then ??? You haven't won anything yet. You've paid, but you have 0 kills, 0 wins.
- You go out there in a ship that you can now fly with your millions SP, and ??? you won't get attacked by newbies, you'll get attacked by veterans in equivalent (or better) ships that can kill you, so you'll lose the fight. Nobody in this game attacks a stronger ship; they will blob you, call all their friends and kill your shiny ship, just to get a couple more points on their killboard.
As far as the kick in the nuts, imagine yourself in your example:
You're a newbie. You buy SP. You inject it. You delete all API's so nobody can see nothing. Do you...
- Get in a big ship that you can now afford to fly? As soon as you undock, they'll see a titan in the overview and go WHOA that newbie can't possibly fly a titan!!! They must have injected points... Ding ding ding... your injected SP has just been revealed, is no longer hidden.
- Stay in the newbie frigate so that nobody knows you can fly titans... Well in that case nobody will know, and also all those SP you purchased will sit UNUSED in your head, much like money that sits unused in your wallet. It's not in the economy, does nothing. Nobody quakes in fear that OMG Alea has 50 trillion in her wallet and could just RUIN the economy... until you use it, it doesn't exist. Nobody will care that you have enough SP to fly a titan if you're flying newbie ships. As soon as you stop flying newbie ships... see the first option above.
API isn't even needed. |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 00:01:22 -
[1708] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Alea wrote:[...]in my eyes that's pay to win[...]
The kick in the nuts would be that all that injected SP could very well be hidden from everybody that don't have access to the full API of that character. And, in my opinion it's not pay to win because: - You inject the SP and then ??? You haven't won anything yet. You've paid, but you have 0 kills, 0 wins. - You go out there in a ship that you can now fly with your millions SP, and ??? you won't get attacked by newbies, you'll get attacked by veterans in equivalent (or better) ships that can kill you, so you'll lose the fight. Nobody in this game attacks a stronger ship; they will blob you, call all their friends and kill your shiny ship, just to get a couple more points on their killboard. You still won't win. You'll buy a bunch of skillpoints, fly up to a titan or battleship or whatever shiny, get killed repeatedly, grow disillusioned, and regret your SP purchases. Maybe throw some more money at it, to extract the points and re-inject in another ship; take that out and lose it repeatedly, then quit the game. As far as the kick in the nuts, imagine yourself in your example: You're a newbie. You buy SP. You inject it. You delete all API's so nobody can see nothing. Do you... - Get in a big ship that you can now afford to fly? As soon as you undock, they'll see a titan in the overview and go WHOA that newbie can't possibly fly a titan!!! They must have injected points... Ding ding ding... your injected SP has just been revealed, is no longer hidden. - Stay in the newbie frigate so that nobody knows you can fly titans... Well in that case nobody will know, and also all those SP you purchased will sit UNUSED in your head, much like money that sits unused in your wallet. It's not in the economy, does nothing. Nobody quakes in fear that OMG Alea has 50 trillion in her wallet and could just RUIN the economy... until you use it, it doesn't exist. Nobody will care that you have enough SP to fly a titan if you're flying newbie ships. As soon as you stop flying newbie ships... see the first option above. API isn't even needed.
Titans can't dock and if you want to join a reputable corp that belongs to a reputable alliance a full API will need to be given or you will not get in, and even then you still may not get in.
My main gripe with SP trading as I understand it is that people with a greater expendable income can buy SP then will be able to out perform others who can not, given that both payers start off with similar amounts of SP, how is that no pay to win.? It's pay to out advance players with no extra income at the very least.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
325
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 01:47:36 -
[1709] - Quote
Not reading the past 85 pages....
Has their been any thought into negating the penalty if you extract from yourself, and inject back to the same pilot?
As a way for Titan pilots to recover drone SP etc?? |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:22:35 -
[1710] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Alea wrote:[...]in my eyes that's pay to win[...]
The kick in the nuts would be that all that injected SP could very well be hidden from everybody that don't have access to the full API of that character. And, in my opinion it's not pay to win because: - You inject the SP and then ??? You haven't won anything yet. You've paid, but you have 0 kills, 0 wins.
If that is your definition of "pay to win", then there probably doesn't exist any MMO out there that would qualify as "pay to win" in your opinion.
Kalgeroth wrote:why do many people assume the cost of the injectors will be a simple AUR -> ISK conversion?
like players are going to give away 500k SP for free...
500k SP currently nets you about 250m in the character bazaar...if SP farmers want ISK and can't get it through extraction, they'll sell the character instead
The price will probably be equal to what it would cost to run an SP farm without paying any subs, plus a small markup.
So for the whole injector would be:
(Price of 1 Plex) * ((Aur per Extractor)/3500 + 500,000 /(Number of SP possible to train per month)) + a small markup
I don't actually know what the maximum number of SP you can train in a month is. I could refine the formula a bit if I knew that. At the price you get from that formula, an SP farmer would be making just slightly more ISK per injector than what they need in order to PLEX the farming account and buy the Skill Extractors.
The price cannot possibly be higher than that for very long, because if it ever got higher than that, you can be quite certain a whole bunch of enterprising players will soon start SP farm accounts and grab that excess ISK from the market.
The price can go lower, however. And it might be lower for quite a while at the start because of so many players wishing to trade in skills from training choices they've regretted, or gutting characters they don't want to play anymore (for whatever reason. Maybe a bad reputation, or a dumb sounding name.... etc..)
|
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
148
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:07:37 -
[1711] - Quote
The o7 eve show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maVjcmXuMUw&index=1&list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOJpQmojYo4JsrqSfLnoN5r has many data charts and average SP per hour at the last 10 minutes of the video. Cool lab coat, bro. Please add as vanity item so i can pair it with the goggles.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4602
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 12:49:17 -
[1712] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Alea wrote:[...]in my eyes that's pay to win[...]
The kick in the nuts would be that all that injected SP could very well be hidden from everybody that don't have access to the full API of that character. And, in my opinion it's not pay to win because: - You inject the SP and then ??? You haven't won anything yet. You've paid, but you have 0 kills, 0 wins. If that is your definition of "pay to win", then there probably doesn't exist any MMO out there that would qualify as "pay to win" in your opinion. Kalgeroth wrote:why do many people assume the cost of the injectors will be a simple AUR -> ISK conversion?
like players are going to give away 500k SP for free...
500k SP currently nets you about 250m in the character bazaar...if SP farmers want ISK and can't get it through extraction, they'll sell the character instead The price will probably be equal to what it would cost to run an SP farm without paying any subs, plus a small markup. So for the whole injector would be: (Price of 1 Plex) * ((Aur per Extractor)/3500 + 500,000 /(Number of SP possible to train per month)) + a small markup I don't actually know what the maximum number of SP you can train in a month is. I could refine the formula a bit if I knew that. At the price you get from that formula, an SP farmer would be making just slightly more ISK per injector than what they need in order to PLEX the farming account and buy the Skill Extractors. The price cannot possibly be higher than that for very long, because if it ever got higher than that, you can be quite certain a whole bunch of enterprising players will soon start SP farm accounts and grab that excess ISK from the market. The price can go lower, however. And it might be lower for quite a while at the start because of so many players wishing to trade in skills from training choices they've regretted, or gutting characters they don't want to play anymore (for whatever reason. Maybe a bad reputation, or a dumb sounding name.... etc..)
Maximum amount of SP per month? The usual estimate it's 1720 SP per hour, averaged for +5 implants and a optimum match of attributes and skills. Since skills are a mixed bag, some train faster, others slower... surely potential SP farmers are already developing a optimum skill path.
Anyway, for guessing purposes, monhtly SP = roughly 2,000,000 SP.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
148
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 16:42:03 -
[1713] - Quote
All skills train the same amount of SP per hour. They take longer only because of the multiplier that makes them worth more SP, not that they slow down the ticker at all. You should check out those graphs. I think your +5 and specialized attribute SP per hour is calculated too low. I have two +3's in with a full willpower/perception map and nearly everything I've trained is hulls lately. I haven't paid much attention to it though, but the graphs show a much higher rate for maximum sp per hour.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4602
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 16:52:55 -
[1714] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:All skills train the same amount of SP per hour. They take longer only because of the multiplier that makes them worth more SP, not that they slow down the ticker at all. You should check out those graphs. I think your +5 and specialized attribute SP per hour is calculated too low. I have two +3's in with a full willpower/perception map and nearly everything I've trained is hulls lately. I haven't paid much attention to it though, but the graphs show a much higher rate for maximum sp per hour.
And when you need skills that require other attributes you will obtain less points, as the amount of SP you collect depends on the skill requisites and your attributes. Thus the average.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2148
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 19:42:54 -
[1715] - Quote
A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Vile Swan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 20:23:02 -
[1716] - Quote
Will there be a limit to how many injectors you can use per month?
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 20:43:19 -
[1717] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants).
In that case, the formula is:
(1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup
Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup
Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup
So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup).
The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3243
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 21:07:19 -
[1718] - Quote
The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
This is not a signature.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 21:11:39 -
[1719] - Quote
It's not nothing bro. I've already broke a tree in my back yard over this with a kick of my righteous fury alone. Then crushed the fallen bark with mah bare hands. I have four more CCP! Don't make me do it! And how did you get such a high AUR price? Curious.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Algarion Getz
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 21:19:22 -
[1720] - Quote
Alea wrote:My main gripe with SP trading as I understand it is that people with a greater expendable income can buy SP then will be able to out perform others who can not, given that both payers start off with similar amounts of SP, how is that no pay to win.? It's pay to out advance players with no extra income at the very least. According to the supporters, skill trading is not P2W because skill points dont matter in PvP. Absolutely everything depends on pilot skill. Having max skills for a Svipul at day 1 doesnt give you any advantage over all the other newbies in their badly skilled T1 frigs. |
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2149
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 21:29:42 -
[1721] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants). In that case, the formula is: (1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup). The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing. The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 21:56:41 -
[1722] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:
The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
The bazaar character transfer charge is arbitrary. I don't think the AUR injector price needs to show any consideration for what I think is pretty much a handling fee to keep transfers serious and make up the cost of time.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:01:08 -
[1723] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash? I'm supposing this gold ammo is also produced through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters and can only be sold on the in game market but never directly by CCP? If so then no it's not P2W as everyone has access to it just by being able to play, CCP isn't even selling it in a way not attached to time, and there are available in game means to afford the portion made tradable without even thinking about reaching for a CC. And even in the case you are using a CC someone has to be making the isk and willing to give it to you for the system to work.
Basically the reason it's ok goes well beyond just the definition of winning, though that is a part of it. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2035
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:25:22 -
[1724] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
It is clearly 'Pay-for-advantage' rather than P2W on an individual level (all skills for any career top out at V's of course). Where it becomes P"W is that the player with more wealth can have all V's in many career's much more rapidly.
Worse than this is the impact on big/wealthy alliances. They can now provide SP-SRP for tech III cruisers, or SP packs to perfect PvE skills in return for rental charges. This can only be bad for smaller alliances and corporations.
This is of course ignoring the removal of the character creation side of the game. And where would the tipping point be for the ratio of all V's characters (per career) and new players before they cry 'Get rid of skills all together!' I can't help but think this will be the thin end of the monetization wedge but we'll see in time. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:46:19 -
[1725] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash? I'm supposing this gold ammo is also produced through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters and can only be sold on the in game market but never directly by CCP (save the ability to produce as normal but in parallel)? If so then no it's not P2W as everyone has access to it just by being able to play, CCP isn't even selling it in a way not attached to time, and there are available in game means to afford the portion made tradable without even thinking about reaching for a CC. And even in the case you are using a CC someone has to be making the isk and willing to give it to you for the system to work. Basically the reason it's ok goes well beyond just the definition of winning, though that is a part of it.
By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.
Not buying the argument |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:49:07 -
[1726] - Quote
What is lacking, imo, is an ISK sink component to the extractors/injectors. That would actually be good for the overall economy, and I could actually support this new mechanic as being good for the game. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 23:10:00 -
[1727] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.
Not buying the argument
No, that would be P2W because it doesn't abide by the same rules. In that case you're still creating something exclusively sold by CCP rather than something which exclusively exists as a function of a paid account that no one has to exhert effort or pay anything additional to obtain for themselves.
How hard is this concept? If you have to pay CCP directly for the item it crosses a line, especially in the case that that transaction is the exclusive source, but neither of those are effectively true here since everyone who can play the game can also train.,
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 23:34:58 -
[1728] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.
Not buying the argument
No, that would be P2W because it doesn't abide by the same rules. In that case you're still creating something exclusively sold by CCP rather than something which exclusively exists as a function of a paid account that no one has to exhert effort or pay anything additional to obtain for themselves. The logic I presented doesn't allow for that: the BPO/BPC isn't "produced (or obtained) through normal game means on every account and at best only has a cost to transfer between characters." SP on the other hand does abide by that since every paying account can produce it. How hard is this concept? If you have to pay CCP directly for the item or ability it crosses a line, especially in the case that that transaction is the exclusive source, but neither of those are effectively true here since everyone who can play the game can also train.
No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)
edit. Put the extractors in the LP stores. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 23:36:42 -
[1729] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint) No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 23:39:39 -
[1730] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint) No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated.
But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print. Same thing. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 23:42:34 -
[1731] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint) No, it's not the same, anyone can gain SP both before and after the change through training, but how many could self produce gold ammo without buying the BPC from CCP? None. Difference clearly demonstrated. But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print. Same thing. Skills you can use are the same as ammo that doesn't exist and as such can't be used?
What?
|
Vile Swan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 23:57:46 -
[1732] - Quote
I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time? |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
217
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 00:14:36 -
[1733] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Skills you can use are the same as ammo that doesn't exist and as such can't be used?
What?
Edit: Also do you realize you've deviated from the initial claim of P2W being that "through the use of cash > PLEX > isk > sikll injectors one can buy an advantage and thus it's P2W"? You've now gone to "the ability to purchase the tool to decrease you're characters SP and create an item from it is P2W" if I'm understanding?
Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself the skill injector is the item made
CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR. My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.
And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think. It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W
Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
767
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 00:14:50 -
[1734] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
There is onpy one limit mate, it's your wallet rl or ing no matter though. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1888
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 00:30:08 -
[1735] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself the skill injector is the item made
CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR. My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.
And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think. It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W No, you've got this backwards, skills are the end product. Skilled characters are the training end game, not extractors or injectors. Injectors are just SP which are currently removed from skills and rendered unused but transferrable.
Injectors are NOT advantageous in themselves like gold ammo, only skills are, but unlike your gold ammo scenario, skills have no "BPC" apart from the books themselves which are in game items. So if gold ammo was restricted to the same mechanism: I can produce it myself from nothing and need no BPC I can't get in game and can use it on the character I produced it, then it becomes analogous.
But your BPC doesn't meet those criteria since I need to specifically buy it from CCP (on top of requiring other materials which skills do not.), no matter how much you refuse to accept that simple, demonstrable logic.
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most. Ok, but that's not related to this or disputed. Also you misspelled his name. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 00:49:39 -
[1736] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:A farming char will net you 2M skillpoints per month (2700 SP/h, perfect map, +5 implants). In that case, the formula is: (1 Plex) * ((Aur Cost of Extractor)/3500 + 500,000/2,000,000) + a small markup Or : (1 Plex) * ((Aurcost of Extractor)/3500 + 0.25) + a small markup Or: (1 Plex)* ((Aur Cost of Extractor) + 875)/ 3500 + a small markup So, if an extractor costs 2625 Aurum, then full injector would cost 1 Plex (+ a small markup). The viability of doing this will all come down to that Aurum price. I might opt not to bother with it at all, considering how much the instant SP will likely cost. It's likely that we're getting all upset over nothing. The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX
Injectors will always cost more than 1/4 PLEX to make, though. (After all is taken into account, anyway.)
The minimum cost to make an injector os 1/4 PLEX + the Extractor.
Quote:, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
The formula tells you the highest price it can reach. It can go lower, but it can't go higher, or not for very long anyway.
If it went higher, then players would buy plex, use farms to convert them into extractors, and sell them at a profit. If the profit of that ever gets very high, there will be a rush to exploit the available profit. Supply will rise until the market gets flooded to the point where the price drops back down.
If the price is lower than that, farming will be unprofitable. Most of the injectors that go on the market will be from players scrubbing off skills they don't want, or scrap heaping alts before they biomass them. After the first few months, the market would slow down quite a lot. Not a lot of players would be selling injectors.
The Aurum price is the key. If it's a high Aurum price, then you're looking at paying quite a lot for your SP. Straight subbing will always remain the most price effective way to increase your skills.
It only appeals to the impatient. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 01:17:11 -
[1737] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote: The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
Good point about the Char transfer cost. Scrap heaping characters by making Injectorss from them has to be more profitable than selling the character on the Bazaar, or there won't be any scrap heaping.
There are basically only three sources for Injectors:
- - SP farms (where the SP need to sell for 1/4 Plex at least)
- - Scrap heaping (where the SP need to sell for more than the price would have been in Character Bazaar, after paying the transfer fee.)
and
- - House Cleaning (which has no minimum price, because a player is simply selling unwanted SP).
If the price drops below the first two limits, then injectors will only be provided by housecleaning, and the supply would be very limited. (After the first few months.)
If the price rises above the SP farm limit, then supply will be effectively unlimited because an unlimited number of SP farm accounts can be created. |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 01:44:12 -
[1738] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
Will probably only be limited by how much money you want to throw at it, as it seems CCP needs the money, that's the only logical reason way this would be implemented.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Memphis Baas
1013
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 02:23:08 -
[1739] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:I would like to repeat my question will there be a limit to how many skill injectors you can use at one time?
No limit has been announced, and the video linked a few pages back shows that they definitely added functionality to use a whole stack with a single click. I don't know if there's a database constraint on how big a stack of injectors can be. |
Aquiileia
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 03:06:13 -
[1740] - Quote
Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks! |
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
767
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 04:34:23 -
[1741] - Quote
Aquiileia wrote:Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks!
You've just shocked me. Having more than one characters and wont be able to do what you want? |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
369
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 04:38:09 -
[1742] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Aquiileia wrote:Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks! You've just shocked me. Having more than one characters and wont be able to do what you want?
Sure thing, but its mostly limited by all kind of artificial barriers in EVE, the number of orders per char for example. The number of contracts per char, the wallet interface in its own.
Ow... wait, yeah, and to dual train chars up just to work around it very annoying each time you run into these barriers, skill trading will be an awesome way to boost Power-of-Two alts into a useful position.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 04:47:51 -
[1743] - Quote
Aquiileia wrote:Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks!
I personally would not want all the SP from all my characters dumped into just one, it would make me less efficient, I would make less ISK and I would only be able to fly one ship at a time, that would make Eve very boring for me.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6937
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 05:17:45 -
[1744] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:If it went higher, then players would buy plex, use farms to convert them into extractors, and sell them at a profit. If the profit of that ever gets very high, there will be a rush to exploit the available profit. Supply will rise until the market gets flooded to the point where the price drops back down. And all these plex are doing what in price while all players are rushing to buy them?
In fact which price is moving first, the plex being rushed to be bought or the extractors coming out ... over the span of 4 weeks~
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Kate S'jet
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 07:49:51 -
[1745] - Quote
Firstly, I'd like to apologies for not reading the 80+ pages of content thus far and so I could very well be duplicating or regurgitating someone else's thoughts.
With that, as far as SPT mechanics are concerned. Has CCP considered that by introducing this feature that it may compete with +1 - +5 implants. As the whole purpose of those implants are to speed up SP training. This could make the implants redundant or obsolete, as pilots especially PvP pilots could see this as being risk averse impacting the volume of +1 - +5 implants being traded on the market. Don't confuse the multi-purpose implants where they will always have a place in Eve, well at least for now.
Also I think CCP have tried in the past to reduce or constrain the amount of scams that go one which has been one of the major contributors to tarnishing the games image. This would surely be one of the new scamming opportunity, and as CCP has verbally stated that this feature is targeted at the "new" pilots. This could compound the issue of disgruntled pilots leaving early as they have been scammed. First scam could be that skill extractor is stated to be a skill injector, as both are going to be available on the market, a new pilot could easily be scammed to thinking its something that it's not. The other scam is the 4 different amount of skill injectors that will exist in the market will mean that pilots will easily be scammed with this as well. So if CCP is so focused on the new pilot and there ability to fly ships through a purchase SP feature, how will they or have they put safe guards into the game to mitigate scammers from scamming the innocent? If CCP's true intention is to enable and empower new pilots to ascending SP quickly or quicker than the currently available training mechanism in a safer - less scammed risk, than its fair to say this is not it. I think the aim should be to reduce the scamming to new pilots will result in a reduction of new pilots leaving in droves, cause like us, new pilots don't or at least shouldn't mind dealing with SP as it is, versus being scammed and/or shot out of the sky's in high sec. - what game mechanics are being focused in that area of the game? One last consideration, with a further introduction of a feature that is best utilised with real world money would favour players who earn an income. Every statistic that I've seen for the last 15+ years has shown that the largest market of mmo gamers is in the 13+ - 15+ year bracket. And we all know that they don't have an income but have to depend on there parents. Hence why there's a million more "free" to play games as apposed to a monthly subscription games. And please don't try to argue that I should look at WoW or FF with there subscription as we all know that there not even scratching the surface of just how many mmo gamers there are out there in the world. Just look at PS and Xbox to show the real market potential as every child's parent is happy to buy a console and a game to start with and evolve from there - no monthly subscription is required there.
So bring on more programmers CCP I wait with baited breath for more content quicker being rolled out. |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 08:34:24 -
[1746] - Quote
Kate S'jet wrote:With that, as far as SPT mechanics are concerned. Has CCP considered that by introducing this feature that it may compete with +1 - +5 implants. As the whole purpose of those implants are to speed up SP training. This could make the implants redundant or obsolete, as pilots especially PvP pilots could see this as being risk averse impacting the volume of +1 - +5 implants being traded on the market. Don't confuse the multi-purpose implants where they will always have a place in Eve, well at least for now. They won't be redundant or obsolete, they will still be a viable option for passively speeding up your skill training, especially if you don't want to use this upcoming travesty on principle, but even if you do use it.
Quote:Also I think CCP have tried in the past to reduce or constrain the amount of scams that go one which has been one of the major contributors to tarnishing the games image. This would surely be one of the new scamming opportunity, and as CCP has verbally stated that this feature is targeted at the "new" pilots. This could compound the issue of disgruntled pilots leaving early as they have been scammed. Scams in EVE are allowed and encouraged, and rather than tarnishing its image they improve it for a lot of people. EVE is one of the only, if not the only MMO which considers it a part of the game, which is one of the increasingly few features that distinguish it from all other casual crap out there. If someone leaves just because they got scammed (which would be their own fault, by the way), then EVE wasn't the game for them in the first place.
Quote:First scam could be that skill extractor is stated to be a skill injector, as both are going to be available on the market, a new pilot could easily be scammed to thinking its something that it's not. The other scam is the 4 different amount of skill injectors that will exist in the market will mean that pilots will easily be scammed with this as well. If they're stupid enough to the point of not being able to distinguish something called a "Skill Extractor" from something called a "Skill Injector", even after reading the descriptions on them, they deserve to be scammed. Same goes for pretty much every other scam. And no, there won't be 4 different injectors on the market, just a single item which will inject different amounts depending on the injecting pilot's SP.
Quote:So if CCP is so focused on the new pilot and there ability to fly ships through a purchase SP feature, how will they or have they put safe guards into the game to mitigate scammers from scamming the innocent? If CCP's true intention is to enable and empower new pilots to ascending SP quickly or quicker than the currently available training mechanism in a safer - less scammed risk, than its fair to say this is not it. They obviously aren't, they're focused on generating revenue. But you're right, if their true intention was helping new players, this wouldn't be the solution, which is painfully obvious to anyone with some common sense. And no, they shouldn't implement something against scams(not that they could, anyways), and there are no "innocents" in a scam - both parties are equally to blame, if you want to blame someone in the first place.
Quote:I think the aim should be to reduce the scamming to new pilots will result in a reduction of new pilots leaving in droves, cause like us, new pilots don't or at least shouldn't mind dealing with SP as it is, versus being scammed and/or shot out of the sky's in high sec. - what game mechanics are being focused in that area of the game?
One last consideration, with a further introduction of a feature that is best utilised with real world money would favour players who earn an income. Every statistic that I've seen for the last 15+ years has shown that the largest market of mmo gamers is in the 13+ - 15+ year bracket. And we all know that they don't have an income but have to depend on there parents. Hence why there's a million more "free" to play games as apposed to a monthly subscription games. And please don't try to argue that I should look at WoW or FF with there subscription as we all know that there not even scratching the surface of just how many mmo gamers there are out there in the world. Just look at PS and Xbox to show the real market potential as every child's parent is happy to buy a console and a game to start with and evolve from there - no monthly subscription is required there.
So bring on more programmers CCP I wait with baited breath for more content quicker being rolled out.
Reduce scamming? Please don't ask them to nerf the game any more, they're doing too good of a job at that already. Scamming is and has been an integral part of EVE since the beginning. As is risking getting shot every time you undock. High-sec =/= safe-sec.
"One last consideration, with a further introduction of a feature that is best utilised with real world money would favour players who earn an income." Of course it would, that's the whole reason behind this travesty being implemented - cash. I now see why you're so against scams, you're gullible and seem to actually buy CCPs bull about how this is intended for new players.
I wait with bated breath for more microtransactions to be rolled out. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 10:34:53 -
[1747] - Quote
The question is: how much of a difference will it really make?
Each injector gives you one week of skill training. So to catch up one year would require 52 injectors. To catch up 6 years would require 312 injectors.
Unless extractors are really cheap, I think only a very wealthy person would be able to afford to buy enough injectors to make a dent on game balance.
As far as the in game ISK trillionaires out there, most of themare probably long time vets who probably earned their ISK in game. If they earned it in game, then that's not "pay to win". That's "play to win." And "play to win" is fine with me. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2035
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 11:24:42 -
[1748] - Quote
Natsuko Kanami wrote:Kate S'jet wrote:With that, as far as SPT mechanics are concerned. Has CCP considered that by introducing this feature that it may compete with +1 - +5 implants. As the whole purpose of those implants are to speed up SP training. This could make the implants redundant or obsolete, as pilots especially PvP pilots could see this as being risk averse impacting the volume of +1 - +5 implants being traded on the market. Don't confuse the multi-purpose implants where they will always have a place in Eve, well at least for now. They won't be redundant or obsolete, they will still be a viable option for passively speeding up your skill training, especially if you don't want to use this upcoming travesty on principle, but even if you do use it. ....
I seem to remember a while back lots of nullsec people complaining about attribute implants and saying that they should be removed as they allowed people in hisec to more safely boost their training rate compared to PvP pilots in null.
I don't notice them complaining about this mechanic ( they very much support it) whereby the wealthy can perfectly safely increase their training rate simply by buying (or being given) SP a chunk at a time... |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2150
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 11:46:43 -
[1749] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:
The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
The bazaar character transfer charge is arbitrary. I don't think the AUR injector price needs to show any consideration for what I think is pretty much a handling fee to keep transfers serious and make up the cost of time. My guess was because in the devblog Rise(?) said that the extractor costs are comparable to the bazaar transaction fee ...
... BTW I did a mistake in my calculation above (nobody noticed ), so my guess for the extractor is 70-350 AUR. The value of 1/4 PLEX was for the raw skillpoints (PLEXed farming char) and already today people are trading chars below that threshold.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
167
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 14:24:20 -
[1750] - Quote
Dear Amarrian God in Heaven this thread is at 88 pages.
I feel like I represent a very small minority of forum users in that I don't have any opposition to this feature or suggestions to "fix" it.
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
|
|
Mnemosyne Ab aeterno
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 14:41:00 -
[1751] - Quote
As a new player into eve and using sites like EVE University Wiki, I have noticed that there are core skills Core skills. Why did you not just reimburse players with these skill points and give all new players 5'S in these? that is 81 - 120 days of remaps? Or in an ark mission you would get skill injects for certain skills like jerry rigging instead of books.
Why are you penalising Old players if they extract points from their body and re-inject them shouldn't they get the full SP as it is theirs? Yes if it was from someone else it would be understandable that they get a penalised amount.
If you look at it this way. In real life your body accepts skin graphs better if it is from its own body. But if you get a skin graph from another body you have to take medicine etc to allow it to heal faster.
These skill points injectors should also have a time period, for example, a week that you have to use them unless it's sat on the market. this way experienced well funded players can't stock pile it waiting for new releases. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
59
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 15:32:35 -
[1752] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:My guess was because in the devblog Rise(?) said that the extractor costs are comparable to the bazaar transaction fee ... ... BTW I did a mistake in my calculation above (nobody noticed ), so my guess for the extractor is 70-350 AUR. The value of 1/4 PLEX was for the raw skillpoints (PLEXed farming char) and already today people are trading chars below that threshold. I have suggested 100-200 AUR as "nice", with 500 AUR as "pain threshold", somewhere many pages ago in this thread. That fits nicely with your predicted range. Though I wouldn't call this a "prediction" in my case. It's more a statement of what I would consider as good for the game... and for myself, of course.
Honestly though, I think extractors should simply be a rare drop in game. Or at least to also be a rare drop.
I suggest using ghost sites (Covert Research Facility), with a probability of extractor drops growing with difficulty, from lowest "Lesser" over "Standard" and "Improved" to highest "Superior".
I reckon that would drive some fun content, and push more people into lower security regions. |
Zoe Jackes
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 15:34:01 -
[1753] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:
The maximum value of a 500k skillpack is 1/4 PLEX, on the market it will be traded lower as the figures from the bazaar show us, and also from the fact that training time per subscription is more efficient than PLEX. The extractor price on top needs to be balanced against the 2 PLEX fee for char transfers. Hence a fee much higher than the transfer fee per char/skillpack will make skill trading a niche market for snobs.
The bazaar character transfer charge is arbitrary. I don't think the AUR injector price needs to show any consideration for what I think is pretty much a handling fee to keep transfers serious and make up the cost of time. My guess was because in the devblog Rise(?) said that the extractor costs are comparable to the bazaar transaction fee ... ... BTW I did a mistake in my calculation above (nobody noticed ), so my guess for the extractor is 70-350 AUR. The value of 1/4 PLEX was for the raw skillpoints (PLEXed farming char) and already today people are trading chars below that threshold.
Yes, today there are some people selling their characters on the Bazaar below training cost. But there are a lot of factors that would contribute to that, once the sp is packaged up in nice 500 k chunks, those factors will disappear.
The only factor that would make a person sell their SP below training cost in injectors would be if the AUR cost was disgustingly high and the demand for the product wasn't much above that. |
Algarion Getz
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 16:37:22 -
[1754] - Quote
Its interesting how much the community has changed.
In 2010 CCP has already tried to monetize the skill system. Players didnt like it. From a dev blog:
Quote:ItGÇÿs clear that itGÇÿs the will of the community to keep virtual goods sales outside the spectrum of what we classify as the "merit economy". That refers to skills gained over time or items that have a gameplay impact. So after discussions, designs, brainstorming and all sorts of processes weGÇÿve come up with a strategy that weGÇÿve already polished with the help of the CSM and would now want to present to the larger community.
Virtual goods sales in EVE Online will evolve through sales of vanity items, first in Incarna but later in-space features. The scope will be that anything that doesnGÇÿt affect gameplay directly can be, potentially, sold for PLEX or other means. This whole P2W story peaked in the summer of rage, with mass protests and a mass exodus of players. It was 100% clear that players did not want any form of P2W or P2Progress.
5 years later: CCP: Hey guys, we will add skill trading and soon you will be able to pay for skill points with cash. Players: OH YEAH PAY 2 PROGRESS! FINALY INSTAGRATIFICATION!!!!111 WALLETS ONLINE WILL BE SO GUD!!!!!!111n++ OMG THX CCP!!!1
Seems like most players who really care about the game have already left.
CCP used Salami Tactics. . . . Its super effective! |
Zoe Jackes
Brutor tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 16:46:27 -
[1755] - Quote
It's not pay to win you scrublord, and the summer of rage was more than just a newseltter about what kind of things they could monetize. It was the ****** Incarna expansion they hyped so much, but it turned out to be just a room that melted your computer, it was 18 months before they could do anything else to improve the game, it was the let's see what they do and not what they say.
The main gripe I had with their greed back then was that they were toying with the notion of things being created out of thin air. You know like ammunition, ships that would only be sold for AUR, stuff like that. That's why they made the skins work the way they do. and that's why they're not selling the SP directly for AUR.
|
TheDamned
Galactic Relic Hunters Unity
15
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:10:52 -
[1756] - Quote
While I understand some of you that have played for years to obtain your skill points not wanting these injectors, I also sense some of you not wanting to level the playing field at all. The idea of new players being able to pay for someone elses time in game to benefit themselves and be more "difficult" to prey on.
Personally, I just want to be able to do the things I want to do in game with maximum efficiency. I want to max my scanning skills and stealth bomber skills. Nothing more. Right now, I get 120 dps with torpedos in a Purifier. I'm looking forward to be able to max some skills out from my alt characters.
I have a very old account (2004) but only have a little over 6million skills because for years I would come to eve, spend a week trying to learn something new about the game only to be roadblocked by the skill points over time system and then leave the game.
Now, I can actually do what I want. If CCP makes the cost of these fair and not a silly cash grab, it WILL spike the number of players who come back and new players wanting to dive into EVE which will be great for everyone all around.
I just wish they would launch it already. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:37:00 -
[1757] - Quote
MidnightWyvern wrote:Dear Amarrian God in Heaven this thread is at 88 pages.
I feel like I represent a very small minority of forum users in that I don't have any opposition to this feature or suggestions to "fix" it.
The one below this is 322 pages long
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:38:25 -
[1758] - Quote
Mnemosyne Ab aeterno wrote:As a new player into eve and using sites like EVE University Wiki, I have noticed that there are core skills Core skills. Why did you not just reimburse players with these skill points and give all new players 5'S in these? that is 81 - 120 days of remaps? Or in an ark mission you would get skill injects for certain skills like jerry rigging instead of books. Why are you penalising Old players if they extract points from their body and re-inject them shouldn't they get the full SP as it is theirs? Yes if it was from someone else it would be understandable that they get a penalised amount. If you look at it this way. In real life your body accepts skin graphs better if it is from its own body. But if you get a skin graph from another body you have to take medicine etc to allow it to heal faster. These skill points injectors should also have a time period, for example, a week that you have to use them unless it's sat on the market. this way experienced well funded players can't stock pile it waiting for new releases.
Skill Extractors
This item can be activated in a station, while in your pod, to create a Skill Injector by selecting 500,000 skillpoints from your character to be removed. When skill extraction is confirmed, the Skill Extractor will be consumed.
Skill Extractors may only be used by characters with at least 5,500,000 skillpoints.
Skill Extractor
This item can be activated in a station to grant the user unallocated skill points. Skill injectors are consumed immediately once activated.
The amount of skill points granted depends on the total skill points the using character possesses, according to the following scale:
Characters with less than 5,000,000 skill points will receive 500,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 5,000,000 and 50,000,000 skill points will receive 400,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 50,000,000 and 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 300,000 unallocated skill points Characters with more than 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 150,000 unallocated skill points
Skill Injectors are created using a Skill Extractor
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 17:44:19 -
[1759] - Quote
Suede wrote: Skill Extractors may only be used by characters with at least 5,500,000 skillpoints.
Skill Extractor
This item can be activated in a station to grant the user unallocated skill points. Skill injectors are consumed immediately once activated.
The amount of skill points granted depends on the total skill points the using character possesses, according to the following scale:
Characters with less than 5,000,000 skill points will receive 500,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 5,000,000 and 50,000,000 skill points will receive 400,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 50,000,000 and 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 300,000 unallocated skill points Characters with more than 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 150,000 unallocated skill points
Skill Injectors are created using a Skill Extractor
That minimum was probably set for the test server. I don't think it makes any sense to talk about how they benefit new players if you have to be here three months+ to use one. That is just silly. Nor do I think the 500k unpenalized injector would be bothered to be stated. They would begin with the 2nd line not with 5m but 5.5m SP and the following 400k rules.
Do NOT assume the test server restrictions will apply to the TQ extractor rules.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
149
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 18:09:21 -
[1760] - Quote
It seems like this entire topic was double-posted. The other thread I mentioned has many more CSM and large block representation and commenting on it. Probably why it has reached such high page count. Maybe time to shift over to there, guys. You won't be seeing me here anymore; My attention span probably died by page 186.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
|
Kalgeroth
The Monocled Elite
6
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 20:15:28 -
[1761] - Quote
Aquiileia wrote:Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks!
given it's going to cost 500m minimum and up to 1bn to buy an injector...i hope you have plenty of isk saved! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9800
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 20:29:20 -
[1762] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:That minimum was probably set for the test server. I don't think it makes any sense to talk about how they benefit new players if you have to be here three months+ to use one. You can't extract skills you don't have.
I think you are confusing extracting and injecting. I'm pretty sure you can inject skills on day one of a new character.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Zombeilord Zantra
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 20:37:00 -
[1763] - Quote
Kalgeroth wrote:Aquiileia wrote:Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks! given it's going to cost 500m minimum and up to 1bn to buy an injector...i hope you have plenty of isk saved!
Who said it was going to be 1billion isk, could be 2 billion but know that you lose the skill you trained up, I assume it will be high at first at least close to a battleship or a bit more then a battleship cost, maybe a bill but the price I am sure will even out around maybe 400 mil to 600 million isk and if we are lucky it could even out to a flat 500 mill, but I can see it being a billion in the beginning. Have to wait and see what it ends up looking like next week. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
150
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 20:50:26 -
[1764] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:That minimum was probably set for the test server. I don't think it makes any sense to talk about how they benefit new players if you have to be here three months+ to use one. You can't extract skills you don't have. I think you are confusing extracting and injecting. I'm pretty sure you can inject skills on day one of a new character. Mr Epeen
I did! That makes more sense.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom.
|
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 22:09:45 -
[1765] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:While I understand some of you that have played for years to obtain your skill points not wanting these injectors, I also sense some of you not wanting to level the playing field at all. The idea of new players being able to pay for someone elses time in game to benefit themselves and be more "difficult" to prey on. Can't speak for others, but leveling the playing field doesn't matter to me. I don't mind new people catching up to me in terms of SP (not that I have that much anyway), but this won't help them do that. It will help veterans who are well-off become even more well-off, and will in fact make the disparity between new and old players even bigger.
What I do mind is that CCP is doing something they explicitly said (multiple times) that they will never do, and that is offering an in-game advantage in exchange for cash.
What I do mind is that they're doing this despite the overwhelmingly negative response to it.
What I do mind is that they're doing this with one of the core mechanics that made EVE different from any other pay2win/grind2win MMO.
What I do mind is that they're lying about their reasons for doing it.
If they were interested in helping new players and insisted on doing it with this mechanic, the extractors would be available by means other than paying real cash, and the injectors would be completely unusable by any character above something like 10-20 million SP. Not to mention that there are plenty of better ways to help new players without also helping the older ones in the process.
TheDamned wrote:Personally, I just want to be able to do the things I want to do in game with maximum efficiency. I want to max my scanning skills and stealth bomber skills. Nothing more. Right now, I get 120 dps with torpedos in a Purifier. I'm looking forward to be able to max some skills out from my alt characters.
I have a very old account (2004) but only have a little over 6million skills because for years I would come to eve, spend a week trying to learn something new about the game only to be roadblocked by the skill points over time system and then leave the game. I want to as well, but not at the expense of the game as a whole. In fact, I would argue that having to wait for skills is a good thing. You need to plan what you want to do and what you need to do it, you need to decide what your priorities are and focus on a certain playstyle. You need to specialize.
That's one of the great things about EVE imo, that a pilot with 5 mil SP specialized in PvP skills can still pwn a 100 mil SP veteran who focused more on other things. You need to specialize, and people with different specialties need to group up and cooperate in order to cover each other's weaknesses and achieve something bigger than themselves. Now you'll just have a bunch of people running around going "buy all the skills \o/" and being jacks of all trades and masters of none.
And if you weren't playing because you waited for skills to train up, you're doing it wrong. You do the best with what you have at the moment and get better over time, and gain some actual gameplay experience in the process. Then when you get good enough at that aspect of the game and have the skills to match, you try something new and different. It's not so much about "I need X to do Y", it's about "I need to do Y, how do I do it with the tools I already have at my disposal". It's about thinking how to solve a problem or work around it instead of just throwing SP at it in the hopes that it will then solve itself.
Having to work with less will make you a better player when you have access to more. When this update goes live, you'll throw a bunch of SP at whatever you want to do, feel no accomplishment in doing so because it's instant gratification, and then realize you still suck at it simply because you don't have the gameplay experience to go along with and make good use of that SP. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
409
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 23:39:14 -
[1766] - Quote
Kalgeroth wrote:Aquiileia wrote:Please launch this soon so I can actually merge my characters and do what I actually wanna do in the game! Thanks! given it's going to cost 500m minimum and up to 1bn to buy an injector...i hope you have plenty of isk saved! I doubt it will cost as much as that. The ISK value of the skill points will be below 200mil due to the fact that skill farming will be appealing to anything around and above that mark.
CCP mentioned that they want to keep the transfer costs roughly similar to that of the bazaar, and if you consider a range of average character SP sold on the bazaar, your probably looking at around 10mil to 50mil SP, and both costing 2 PLEX will give a result between 20 and 100 extractors for 2 PLEX.
I'd guess CCP will be looking at the lower end meaning perhaps 10 extractors per PLEX.
So you have ( PLEX price / 10 ) + 200mil.
My guess is a single extractor will go for around 250 mil to 350 mil.
(This is of course all speculative dependant on how CCP prices the extractors)
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
20
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 04:08:11 -
[1767] - Quote
The problem with all these apocalyptic horror stories is that most potential pay2win players aren't going to have enough real world cash to buy more than a few months worth of injectors. Remember it's 4 injectors = 1 month until you reach 5 m SP. Then it's 5 injectors = 1 month until 50 m Sp. Then 6.66 injectors = 1 month till 80 m sp. Then 13.33 injectors = 1 month forever after.
But reaching 80 m SP from day one requires 223 injectors. How many people actually have enough money in RL to buy that many extractors?
Letting people skip a few months ahead isn't going to break the game. Letting people skip a few YEARS ahead might break it, but that's unlikely to happen unless injectors are dirt cheap.
I mean... I guess it could happen, like if Warren Buffet suddenly decides he wants to start playing EVe tomorrow. Or Amarrian god forbid Paul Allen starts an account!
|
Kalgeroth
The Monocled Elite
6
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 09:12:58 -
[1768] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:The ISK value of the skill points will be below 200mil due to the fact that skill farming will be appealing to anything around and above that mark.
500k SP can already be sold for 250-350m in the character bazaar...people already 'skill farm' in the sense that some characters are built specifically to sell, and they attain that kind of price
so the cost of the injectors will be a simple AUR/ISK conversion of the extractor + around 300m ISK
500m is the likely minimum cost of an injector |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
409
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 12:42:38 -
[1769] - Quote
300 mil per 500k of SP would effectively mean eve becomes free to play. I can't see that happening as many players such as myself pay the subscription to access the servers and not solely for the accumulation of SP.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Kalgeroth
The Monocled Elite
6
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 13:29:55 -
[1770] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:300 mil per 500k of SP would effectively mean eve becomes free to play. I can't see that happening as many players such as myself pay the subscription to access the servers and not solely for the accumulation of SP.
the things is, it already happens (in the character bazaar)
of course you have to factor in your time as well and the cost of the character transfer, but you can already make ISK from character sales if you create a desirable and focused character and attain a good price
I don't think people will sell SP for less than they can sell it for already |
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2105
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 13:40:02 -
[1771] - Quote
Kalgeroth wrote:Moac Tor wrote:300 mil per 500k of SP would effectively mean eve becomes free to play. I can't see that happening as many players such as myself pay the subscription to access the servers and not solely for the accumulation of SP. the things is, it already happens (in the character bazaar) of course you have to factor in your time as well and the cost of the character transfer, but you can already make ISK from character sales if you create a desirable and focused character and attain a good price I don't think people will sell SP for less than they can sell it for already Effort to do this is a huge factor. There goes a lot of planing and investment into this if you want to create and sell chars on the bazaar. SP extraction is however zero effort. This makes all the difference in the world.
I would never ever create a char to sell on the bazaar, but I will most certainly use the new mechanic to get free chars, and so will a lot of other people.
I expect a huge impact on PLEX price
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Memphis Baas
1025
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 13:43:36 -
[1772] - Quote
Kalgeroth wrote:I don't think people will sell SP for less than they can sell it for already.
That's where you're mistaken.
People will sell for many reasons, including laziness, lack of knowledge, or just simply acting irrationally / on a whim.
Also, it's not like the current Character Bazaar prices are set in stone.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6937
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 14:32:30 -
[1773] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:many players such as myself pay the subscription to access the servers and not solely for the accumulation of SP. Whoa whoa, you -sure- you want to say that here?
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Kudoku
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 15:01:41 -
[1774] - Quote
CCP Quant wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game. This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.
If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.
Silly No you're missing the point I am curious to see how players will value the skillpoint part of the injector, as you say we know the extractor prices. The injector prices are thus floored at extractor prices, but on top of that comes the unknown added isk value for the skillpoints themselves. THAT is the interesting thing to watch for when this goes live.
would make sense to base it on sp/month. let's say it's one plex per month. on plex is 1.2bil isk at the moment. one plex gives you one month of play time. i think i heard somewhere that sp/month is about 1mil without implants. so figure 510mil/500kSP probably. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2040
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:10:07 -
[1775] - Quote
Kudoku wrote:...
would make sense to base it on sp/month. let's say it's one plex per month. on plex is 1.2bil isk at the moment. one plex gives you one month of play time. i think i heard somewhere that sp/month is about 1mil without implants. so figure 510mil/500kSP probably.
I wonder if there's much point basing any price guesstimates on PLEX since when this hits the PLEX price is going to bounce around like a punk with ADHD at a Sex Pistols gig.
It'll take months most likely before prices for this settle (in my view to what the large alliance powers want it to be). It'll take months after that to see the impact on the wider market (which could be large) and on the player base (depending on whether those who have pre-paid 3, 6, 12 months on their accounts actually do quit).
In short this seems like a huge gamble to me for monetary gain. I hope I'm wrong about that but only time will tell. |
Memphis Baas
1025
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:13:22 -
[1776] - Quote
Predictions ARE based on SP / month, but paying via PLEX isn't the cheapest method. The cheapest method is $10.95 / month with a yearly subscription plan. So that's about HALF a PLEX per month.
Look at Character Bazaar prices, and if you convert the billion ISK character prices to PLEX at the current market values, you'll see that that's what SP/month is valued at (they're also using the maximum training speed, achievable with +5 implants remapped attributes to match the skill requisites). |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1451
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 17:08:59 -
[1777] - Quote
I still feel the extreme reduction that more skilled characters get from this is unwarranted.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
71
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 18:29:24 -
[1778] - Quote
Two things, this:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
Source CCP: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/
then this:
Skill Trading
The new skill trading system is coming to EVE Online, allowing players to turn skillpoints into a commodity for trade on the open market. This new method of sharing training will offer unparalleled options for skill tree customization, and assist new players in their quest to rapidly get ahead in the race for dominance in New Eden.
Source CCP: http://updates.eveonline.com/date/2016-02-09/
Nothing more to say really. |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 18:51:21 -
[1779] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Two things, this: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. Source CCP: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/ then this: Skill Trading The new skill trading system is coming to EVE Online, allowing players to turn skillpoints into a commodity for trade on the open market. This new method of sharing training will offer unparalleled options for skill tree customization, and assist new players in their quest to rapidly get ahead in the race for dominance in New Eden. Source CCP: http://updates.eveonline.com/date/2016-02-09/ Nothing more to say really. Uh where does it say we need money. It says "a commodity for trade on the open market".
So from what i understand, everything needed to do this will be available through the market, provided people sell it. Or through AUR/Plex from the market. |
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 18:54:49 -
[1780] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote: Uh where does it say we need money. It says "a commodity for trade on the open market".
So from what i understand, everything needed to do this will be available through the market, provided people sell it. Or through AUR/Plex from the market.
The injector is sold on the market. The extractor that gets turned into the injector is sold through the Exchange for Aurum, which is converted from Plex. Plex is sold by CCP for real money. |
|
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 19:00:28 -
[1781] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote: Uh where does it say we need money. It says "a commodity for trade on the open market".
So from what i understand, everything needed to do this will be available through the market, provided people sell it. Or through AUR/Plex from the market.
The injector is sold on the market. The extractor that gets turned into the injector is sold through the Exchange for Aurum, which is converted from Plex. Plex is sold by CCP for real money. So as long as people continue to inject Plex, its fair game. If people stop selling Plex, then i see the issue. |
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 19:09:16 -
[1782] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:Mintoko wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote: Uh where does it say we need money. It says "a commodity for trade on the open market".
So from what i understand, everything needed to do this will be available through the market, provided people sell it. Or through AUR/Plex from the market.
The injector is sold on the market. The extractor that gets turned into the injector is sold through the Exchange for Aurum, which is converted from Plex. Plex is sold by CCP for real money. So as long as people continue to inject Plex, its fair game. If people stop selling Plex, then i see the issue.
It's the same issue either way. Whether or not a person buys the Plex with someone else's money or their own, it's still real money paid for an advantage. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 19:39:02 -
[1783] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Two things, this: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. Source CCP: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/ then this: Skill Trading The new skill trading system is coming to EVE Online, allowing players to turn skillpoints into a commodity for trade on the open market. This new method of sharing training will offer unparalleled options for skill tree customization, and assist new players in their quest to rapidly get ahead in the race for dominance in New Eden. Source CCP: http://updates.eveonline.com/date/2016-02-09/ Nothing more to say really. then this http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf
Microtransactions and 'monocle-gate'
The development difficulties were only part of the Incarna problem. According to sources, CCP management had decided to introduce microtransactions, unbeknownst to most of the rank and file, charging real money for cosmetic items with which to customise character avatars. This is a familiar feature in online games, but usually a new outfit for a player character will cost $15-20. CCP decided to charge much more. The most notorious example was a monocle costing $70. The price tag infuriated fans kick-starting a major pricing controversy that would go on to become known as Monocle-gate.
The CEO had members of the fiction writing team put the apology together - he was either so out of touch, so arrogant, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words himself
The management response was elusive. In June 2011, senior producer Arnar Gylfason delivered an ambiguous statement, comparing the pixelated monocles to $1000 jeans and questioning whether people should buy clothes in real life at all. Eve subscriptions declined sharply and precipitously, and there were actual in-game riots in protest.
Eventually CEO Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson issued an apology to the players. But even this short appeasement wasnGÇÖt what it seemed; according to Blood, Petursson didnGÇÖt actually write it.
GÇ£He had members of our storyline team GÇô a group responsible for writing in-game content and fiction GÇô put it together,GÇ¥ he says. GÇ£He was either so out of touch, so arrogant, or perhaps both, that he couldnGÇÖt find the words to say himself. They bailed him out big time.GÇ¥
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 20:09:07 -
[1784] - Quote
The Age of Capsuleers is over. The Time of the Orcsuleer has come.
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6938
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 20:11:37 -
[1785] - Quote
People still haven't gotten tired of the same thing from like page .... 2 of the earlier thread.
RehashingV, I know what I need to train to get ahead on these forums.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Memphis Baas
1026
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 22:43:54 -
[1786] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.
So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever.
Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.
Actually, as hashed earlier, the TIME guy gets the advantage of enough time to find join a corp / make friends to fly with, which are things that cannot be bought by the MONEY guy (well, maybe mercenaries, if they can be trusted once hired). So again, no advantage. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6938
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 22:56:16 -
[1787] - Quote
It's pointless to start on that again, better to make a bunch of arguments about the aur cost by now
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Vile Swan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 23:10:00 -
[1788] - Quote
I have one more question will people be able to sell/contract the empty extractors has anyone found any word on that? |
Memphis Baas
1027
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 23:15:42 -
[1789] - Quote
Hasn't been explicitly declared, but I don't see why not. Once claimed from the redeeming window, the extractors are an item just like PLEX is. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2513
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 00:35:23 -
[1790] - Quote
The "fun" thing as Mike and Raine were discussing is the drastic changes.
So, you see some newish alt come in, you kill it easily and when you see it jump a gate, you rush to kill it again ... but now it is in a much tougher ship and hot drops you while hard tackling.
I see a lot more risk adverse game playing in the future. Far more crying about care bears docking up and not coming out to fight.
"Know thy enemy," goes flying out the window.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6938
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 05:36:36 -
[1791] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:So, you see some newish alt come in, you kill it easily and when you see it jump a gate, you rush to kill it again ... but now it is in a much tougher ship and hot drops you while hard tackling.
I see a lot more risk adverse game playing in the future. Far more crying about care bears docking up and not coming out to fight. Yes, the lowsec-highsec gate camping care bears... they were so non-risk adverse in the past ganking people on the gate.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 08:28:41 -
[1792] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:So, you see some newish alt come in, you kill it easily and when you see it jump a gate, you rush to kill it again ... but now it is in a much tougher ship and hot drops you while hard tackling.
I see a lot more risk adverse game playing in the future. Far more crying about care bears docking up and not coming out to fight.
"Know thy enemy," goes flying out the window. If you rush to a kill to the point of not even checking what ship your enemy is flying - then you deserve to die. D-scan is not a STD.
"I can kill this guy all day, every day - and I will" is really just a form of spawn camping. Having your ability to blow up new characters over and over again reduced is ruining the game for you? Well, good. Glad to hear it.
Trigger-happy newbie has just started playing EVE. Under what system is there a greater chance that he will be roaming dangerous space trying to blow things up a couple of weeks later?
Bored bittervet is bored. Under what system is there a greater chance that he will create an alt to blow up stuff for fun?
There are real problems that could come from this. I find the suggestion that corps might pressure members to spend big on "catching up" the most worrisome. But "more care bears" is really not one of the them. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 08:35:38 -
[1793] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Actually, as hashed earlier, the TIME guy gets the advantage of enough time to find join a corp / make friends to fly with, which are things that cannot be bought by the MONEY guy (well, maybe mercenaries, if they can be trusted once hired). So again, no advantage.
Let's see. One year of training for a respec'ed character with +5 implants is 24 mil SP. Approximately.
The first 5 mil costs 10 injectors. The next 19 mil costs 47 injectors (to get to 18.8, which I'll say is close enough.)
So 57 injectors.
If you shop around, you can probably get a decent character with 24 mil SP off the character Bazaar for 17 bil ISK. I got one with 21 mil SP for 14 b last Sunday. (But this character also had level 6+ standings with Caldari and Amar factions, so I was willing to pay a bit more to get that also.)
Come to think of it... let's use my new character for this comparison, because the math will be easy.
21 mil SP comes to 5 mil SP + 16 mil SP. The first 5 cost 10 injectors. The next 16 cost 40 injectors. So 50 injectors.
14 billion divided by 50 is 280 million, so the break-even price, then would be 280 mil ISK per injector.
How likely do you think it is that an injector will trade for a price anywhere near that low?
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 10:01:07 -
[1794] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Actually, as hashed earlier, the TIME guy gets the advantage of enough time to find join a corp / make friends to fly with, which are things that cannot be bought by the MONEY guy (well, maybe mercenaries, if they can be trusted once hired). So again, no advantage.
http://updates.eveonline.com/date/2016-02-09/?_ga=1.58000682.1280479534.1453896604
9 Feb 2016
Skill Extractors may only be used by characters with at least 5,500,000 skillpoints.
Skill Extractor
This item can be activated in a station to grant the user unallocated skill points. Skill injectors are consumed immediately once activated.
The amount of skill points granted depends on the total skill points the using character possesses, according to the following scale:
Characters with less than 5,000,000 skill points will receive 500,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 5,000,000 and 50,000,000 skill points will receive 400,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 50,000,000 and 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 300,000 unallocated skill points Characters with more than 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 150,000 unallocated skill points
Skill Injectors are created using a Skill Extractor |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
137
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 12:29:28 -
[1795] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Actually, as hashed earlier, the TIME guy gets the advantage of enough time to find join a corp / make friends to fly with, which are things that cannot be bought by the MONEY guy (well, maybe mercenaries, if they can be trusted once hired). So again, no advantage. You must be trolling ... |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 15:44:16 -
[1796] - Quote
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
CCP are Getting worse at replying to there Dev blogs. 2014 CCP uploaded 146 Dev blogs 2015 93 Dev blogs which is far less
Archive 2016 (6) 2015 (93) 2014 (146) 2013 (138) 2012 (132) 2011 (177) 2010 (104) 2009 (99) 2008 (76) 2007 (111) 2006 (98) 2005 (68) 2004 (120) 2003 (103)
Skill Extractors may only be used by characters with at least 5,500,000 skillpoints.
Skill Extractor
This item can be activated in a station to grant the user unallocated skill points. Skill injectors are consumed immediately once activated.
The amount of skill points granted depends on the total skill points the using character possesses, according to the following scale:
Characters with less than 5,000,000 skill points will receive 500,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 5,000,000 and 50,000,000 skill points will receive 400,000 unallocated skill points Characters with between 50,000,000 and 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 300,000 unallocated skill points Characters with more than 80,000,000 skill points will receieve 150,000 unallocated skill points
Skill Injectors are created using a Skill Extractor
Still no cost what so Ever from CCP and Update is 9 Feb 2016 nothing from Dev Side off CCP |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 16:08:42 -
[1797] - Quote
I don't think the Devs are going to release the price until the launch as if we know the price, it would cause a minor dip in the economy as people buy PLEX in mass.
Not to mention people would either complain its to expensive for the amount of SP given, or to cheap. Regardless of the price there will be people complaining, and people happy.
Best they can do is leave it a mystery until launch so people can't prepare, and thus lessen the launch day influx, and delay the cries of the people who are dissatisfied with the price until its already out.
Wise? Yes and no. Common Tactic by companies? Yes. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2042
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 16:48:03 -
[1798] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:I don't think the Devs are going to release the price until the launch as if we know the price, it would cause a minor dip in the economy as people buy PLEX in mass.
Not to mention people would either complain its to expensive for the amount of SP given, or to cheap. Regardless of the price there will be people complaining, and people happy.
Best they can do is leave it a mystery until launch so people can't prepare, and thus lessen the launch day influx, and delay the cries of the people who are dissatisfied with the price until its already out.
Wise? Yes and no. Common Tactic by companies? Yes.
The wealthy will be happy either way I think, if they are cheap then they'll buy loads, if they are expensive then they become a valuable commodity and they'll buy them just the same (whilst others can't afford them), |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
75
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 18:52:21 -
[1799] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities.
Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is:
Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not.
Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors.
Character 2 can not financially afford to do this.
So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status? |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 18:55:57 -
[1800] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is like this: Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not. Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therfore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors. Character 2 can not financially afford to do this. So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status? Character 1 sells PLEX for isk. Buys from character bazaar. (or ebay)
Whats the difference?
Character bazaar is cheaper. |
|
Lavitias Arjar
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 19:39:05 -
[1801] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is: Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not. Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors. Character 2 can not financially afford to do this. So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?
Character 1 can already do that it's called the character Bazaar and he'd probably get a character with a whole hell of a lot more skill points off the bazaar also. Don't forget SP doesn't necessarily = win |
Memphis Baas
1032
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 00:31:35 -
[1802] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?
It's not just Character Bazaar, though:
Neither 1 nor 2 are likely to compete against each other; both of them are facing the 30,000 veterans who are already flying big ships. The rich kid will jump in an expensive ship and get killed by veterans, whereas the poor kid will look like a true newbie and get showered with advice, small gifts, and invitations to join corps.
The SP's don't do anything if you sit in station; you need to buy and fly ships to do anything with the SP, and it's counter-intuitive, but big expensive ships are happiness for whoever kills you, not for yourself. The poor kid will have a better gaming experience than the rich kid.
The rich kid will get killed and harassed repeatedly by everyone who hates this change, for daring to use injectors.
|
Duke Paradox
MINOR THREAT.
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 05:16:06 -
[1803] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is: Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not. Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors. Character 2 can not financially afford to do this. So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?
Here's another scenario...
Rich kid subscribes to EVE while in his teenage years. Poor kid can't afford it so he doesn't subscribe. For eight years the poor kid works hard, finishes school, goes to college and then gets a real job. Now poor kid can fulfill his life long dream to subscribe to EVE and be a space pirate. All the while, rich kid has been subscribed to EVE accumulating SPs. He has like 200m SPs now and flies officer fit Tengus. Why the hell does rich kid get to have all the SPs and eight years of EVE awesomeness, while poor kid slaved away collecting soda cans and ****?
Now with SP trading, rich kid can sell SP to keep plexing his account because hes not rich anymore. He wasted 8 years playing EVE and developed a meth habit. He sells SPs to poor kid. Poor kid gets all the SP and the Bolsheviks rise up and slay the capitalist pigs. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
138
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 08:59:26 -
[1804] - Quote
The amount of flimsy excuses in this thread to justify Pay2Progress is mind-boggling.
Im not sure if the people who post these excuses are disguised CCP marketing employees or alts of space rich and powerblock leaders (who want a new tool to reinfoce their position) or just trolls. |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
24
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 09:17:04 -
[1805] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:The amount of flimsy excuses in this thread to justify Pay2Progress is mind-boggling.
Im not sure if the people who post these excuses are disguised CCP marketing employees or alts of space rich and powerblock leaders (who want a new tool to reinfoce their position) or just trolls. All of the above :D |
Venus Aka
sarocade
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 09:41:55 -
[1806] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. So, character 1 invests TIME to get a year of training and fly Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Character 2 invests MONEY to get the same damn skills trained and fly the same damn Falcon / Tengu / whatever. Where exactly is the "unfair advantage"? One invests money, the other invests time, both end up being able to use the same damn ship with the same capabilities. Hi Memphis. I see your point at its conclusion but the way i look at this is: Two new players join Eve online on the same day. Charatcer 1 is a rich kid. Character 2 is not. Character 1 doesn't want to train in the traditional time sense but does not have any ISK to buy SP from the market. Of course the way he can do this is buy buying PLEX for real money, selling the PLEX for ISK on the market and therefore obtaining the ISK to buy the SP Injectors. Character 2 can not financially afford to do this. So, in my example does charater 1 have an unfair advantage over charater 2 due to their personal financial status?
Tired about the nonesense analogies of rich/poor kid - eitherway, as of right now, rich-new-to-game kid can buy a high sp character from the bazaar. Which by logic is also contradicts the ''...investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time..''
At the end of each and everyone's agendas into this topic, there are only 2 sides; A) some people can afford years into the game to refine theirs skills, and farm for hours for ingame cash and/or refine their skills; and B) others cannot afford to invest that much time into the game - hence they'll rather pay to accelerate their SP gain or buy a high sp character. Only one difference is that, the former has more in-game experience than the latter - as in sitting in a ship and flying it are worlds apart.
And unless you actually care about the new players, and for the evolution of Eve online (versus your ego and wallet) and actively recruit and support new people into the game, you won't have a clue of the importance sp-trade in the eve-lives of newbros.
|
David Semris
House Semris
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 10:52:34 -
[1807] - Quote
So after all my heated posts in this topic I have decided to suck it up and pay to win.
Next week when the change is released I-¦m buying all the skills I really want to have in this game and from then my char will mostly serve as passive mining boosts provider plus I might RP a bit and maybe do a mission or two with my new marauder. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13530
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 15:24:28 -
[1808] - Quote
Venus Aka wrote:
Tired about the nonesense analogies of rich/poor kid - eitherway, as of right now, rich-new-to-game kid can buy a high sp character from the bazaar. Which by logic is also contradicts the ''...investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time..''
The rich kid who buys a character is also buying that characters warts. Such as skills that are useless to the buyer (if you are buying a pvp toon, thos emining skills are useless, for example), employment history, probably a silly as hell name etc etc.
The rich kid that can now buy SP is buying pure advantage with no down side. The Character bazaar is a necessary evil (because people will buy accounts/characters regardless) that just straddles the line of the principle involved and is balanced by it's faults.
SP trading doesn't just cross the line, it erases it. |
erg cz
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
394
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 15:26:35 -
[1809] - Quote
All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE. First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.
Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)
Farewell, EVE...
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
|
Duke Paradox
MINOR THREAT.
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 15:44:46 -
[1810] - Quote
erg cz wrote:All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE. First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.
Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)
Farewell, EVE...
This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V.
If you are looking at character's age before fighting them you're doing it wrong. My old main had 80m SP but I found it difficult to find fun fights because risk averse folks like yourself looking at my age. I rolled a new toon, trained him into a focused Atron and had a blast killing vets with a 1 month old guy. That isn't how it should be. The opinion that SP mean so freaking much is hurting the game. If this change does anything, I hope it does away with this mentality of checking a pilot's age before you engage. Just man-up and engage already!
EDIT: I want to add, the Pay-To-Win bullshit makes me laugh. EVE isn't a game you win. You may win a fight or lose a fight but at the end of the day you go on and do something bigger than that one fight. EVE is about building relationships and having fun however you decide to do it. In a sandbox game where you set your own goals, winning comes from within yourself and cannot be attained with just SP. So this idea that buying SP will help you win EVE is ridiculous. I've been playing a racing game from EA on my phone that pings me for an in-game purchase daily... drive new more powerful cars and win races... only $9.99. That's ******* pay-to-win. I cannot even play the stupid game without feeding them more money. Here, you can continue to play EVE and access all its content at the regular pace or you can accelerate it if you want. Nobody is forcing you one way or the other. |
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 16:30:00 -
[1811] - Quote
Duke Paradox wrote:
This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V.
If you are looking at character's age before fighting them you're doing it wrong. My old main had 80m SP but I found it difficult to find fun fights because risk averse folks like yourself looking at my age. I rolled a new toon, trained him into a focused Atron and had a blast killing vets with a 1 month old guy. That isn't how it should be. The opinion that SP mean so freaking much is hurting the game. If this change does anything, I hope it does away with this mentality of checking a pilot's age before you engage. Just man-up and engage already!
EDIT: I want to add, the Pay-To-Win bullshit makes me laugh. EVE isn't a game you win. You may win a fight or lose a fight but at the end of the day you go on and do something bigger than that one fight. EVE is about building relationships and having fun however you decide to do it. In a sandbox game where you set your own goals, winning comes from within yourself and cannot be attained with just SP. So this idea that buying SP will help you win EVE is ridiculous. I've been playing a racing game from EA on my phone that pings me for an in-game purchase daily... drive new more powerful cars and win races... only $9.99. That's ******* pay-to-win. I cannot even play the stupid game without feeding them more money. Here, you can continue to play EVE and access all its content at the regular pace or you can accelerate it if you want. Nobody is forcing you one way or the other.
the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol.
the only thing you can do is pay to save time nothing more nothing less you still have to not suck at the game to make use of what you buy this is actually weaker then the character bazaar i mean come on you know people are gonna over charge like hell for the injectors and if ur over 5 mill sp they are practicly worthless and you would get more bang for your isk buying a specialized character on the bazzar. either way you still have to learn how to do the stuff you plan to do other wise your just gonna make some one's day by becoming a tasty gank or kill for them. example is people who drop money on plex buy a character and then jump in a pirate BS or marauder and put 5-50 billion in officier/deadspace and faction gear on it then try to run missions in high sec then wonder why 20 catalyst gank them. people who buy a carrier or dread pilot then try to use it to do missions in low sec then get killed. (and before caps could use gates they would be at a gate trying to jump then get pissed when they get killed by a gang)
but like the terrorist who believe they get their 72 virgins (which will most likely be the 72 guys who went before them lol or wow players lol) the people who think any type of real life money into a game is pay to win will never change their views. i had some idiots in npc corp chat claim that the ship skins are pay to win lol you just cant change the perception of people with one track minds.
this system is limited and will be very expensive useless to any one who isnt a millionare in real life or a trillion iskare in game since the injectors will be very expensive since you have to factor the cost of aurm + the cost of isk/sp at 500 k sp just cause the injector will be worth less for people over 5 mill sp dont mean sellers are gonna care every sp is worth invested time to them.
cry babies who think this is pay to win get off your soap box and stop being trolls and learn to actually think before you rage. |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 16:34:15 -
[1812] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Duke Paradox wrote:
This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V.
If you are looking at character's age before fighting them you're doing it wrong. My old main had 80m SP but I found it difficult to find fun fights because risk averse folks like yourself looking at my age. I rolled a new toon, trained him into a focused Atron and had a blast killing vets with a 1 month old guy. That isn't how it should be. The opinion that SP mean so freaking much is hurting the game. If this change does anything, I hope it does away with this mentality of checking a pilot's age before you engage. Just man-up and engage already!
EDIT: I want to add, the Pay-To-Win bullshit makes me laugh. EVE isn't a game you win. You may win a fight or lose a fight but at the end of the day you go on and do something bigger than that one fight. EVE is about building relationships and having fun however you decide to do it. In a sandbox game where you set your own goals, winning comes from within yourself and cannot be attained with just SP. So this idea that buying SP will help you win EVE is ridiculous. I've been playing a racing game from EA on my phone that pings me for an in-game purchase daily... drive new more powerful cars and win races... only $9.99. That's ******* pay-to-win. I cannot even play the stupid game without feeding them more money. Here, you can continue to play EVE and access all its content at the regular pace or you can accelerate it if you want. Nobody is forcing you one way or the other.
the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. the only thing you can do is pay to save time nothing more nothing less you still have to not suck at the game to make use of what you buy this is actually weaker then the character bazaar i mean come on you know people are gonna over charge like hell for the injectors and if ur over 5 mill sp they are practicly worthless and you would get more bang for your isk buying a specialized character on the bazzar. either way you still have to learn how to do the stuff you plan to do other wise your just gonna make some one's day by becoming a tasty gank or kill for them. example is people who drop money on plex buy a character and then jump in a pirate BS or marauder and put 5-50 billion in officier/deadspace and faction gear on it then try to run missions in high sec then wonder why 20 catalyst gank them. people who buy a carrier or dread pilot then try to use it to do missions in low sec then get killed. (and before caps could use gates they would be at a gate trying to jump then get pissed when they get killed by a gang) but like the terrorist who believe they get their 72 virgins (which will most likely be the 72 guys who went before them lol or wow players lol) the people who think any type of real life money into a game is pay to win will never change their views. i had some idiots in npc corp chat claim that the ship skins are pay to win lol you just cant change the perception of people with one track minds. this system is limited and will be very expensive useless to any one who isnt a millionare in real life or a trillion iskare in game since the injectors will be very expensive since you have to factor the cost of aurm + the cost of isk/sp at 500 k sp just cause the injector will be worth less for people over 5 mill sp dont mean sellers are gonna care every sp is worth invested time to them. cry babies who think this is pay to win get off your soap box and stop being trolls and learn to actually think before you rage. I agree. But I do need to point out one thing.
That first paragraph of yours gave me the mind's image of them strapping interns to a chair with that giant metal helmet, and doing experiments to try to make that idea come true.
RIP Interns, they knew what they were getting into.
P.S. The 72 virgins are all US Marine Drill Sergeants. W8ing to make sure the terrorist regrets the afterlife as much as he regrets life. |
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
34
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 19:08:49 -
[1813] - Quote
Duke Paradox wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. .
If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you? |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
849
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 19:11:58 -
[1814] - Quote
I think I`m going to express my anger at this change ....in the form of expressive dance ! |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 19:18:09 -
[1815] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Duke Paradox wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. . If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you? We Americans delivering freedom whether you like it or not, or in this case progress.
and whether we in the right country we supposed to be liberating...or not https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/4f/83/274f83d9a316835555770c1289373c3c.jpg
(sorry i couldnt resist pulling the American joke and the "free random country" joke, you sorta set it up for me to say that so perfectly~) |
Zoe Jackes
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 19:55:49 -
[1816] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Duke Paradox wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. . If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?
Right. |
Duke Paradox
MINOR THREAT.
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 20:08:15 -
[1817] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Duke Paradox wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. . If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?
Hey *******, learn to quote. I didnt type this. |
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
34
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 20:33:46 -
[1818] - Quote
Duke Paradox wrote: Hey *******, learn to quote. I didnt type this.
Sorry...that's what happens when one tries to manually edit a multi-quote.
Also, language |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1890
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 21:33:57 -
[1819] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Venus Aka wrote:
Tired about the nonesense analogies of rich/poor kid - eitherway, as of right now, rich-new-to-game kid can buy a high sp character from the bazaar. Which by logic is also contradicts the ''...investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time..''
The rich kid who buys a character is also buying that characters warts. Such as skills that are useless to the buyer (if you are buying a pvp toon, thos emining skills are useless, for example), employment history, probably a silly as hell name etc etc. The rich kid that can now buy SP is buying pure advantage with no down side. The Character bazaar is a necessary evil (because people will buy accounts/characters regardless) that just straddles the line of the principle involved and is balanced by it's faults. SP trading doesn't just cross the line, it erases it. He may buy a character with "warts," he may not and buy a clean one instead, and it's up to him to decide how much those matter. It's in no way a consistent consequence as naysayers like yourself like to argue. And you can bet many players are buying characters selected to ensure that the "warts" don't interfere with their intended function for that character.
What we have is a system that already allows pure gain because not everyone has the same values when it comes to a character. If everyone thought like I did about building a character the Bazaar wouldn't exist. And I have no doubt that others fall on the opposite side of the spectrum with characters being simply tools rather than identities, and no amount of warts on a hammer affect how well it works on nails so long as the head is intact.
All that's really being argued with that logic is that people who do care about character identities need to not have similar functions available to them that those who don't have the same attachments have.
erg cz wrote:All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE. First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.
Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)
Farewell, EVE... And? What's the issue here? Even if both players didn't use injectors what reason is there to believe they'd be equal? What if player A decided to train up weapons instead of the base ship while player B went down some non-ship industry related skills and player C cross trained because he thought the [insert ship here] looked cool? Now none of them are equally effective.
And further how does any of that help players A, B and C when the come into competition with players X, Y, and Z who have been here longer and have an even more varied and divergent skillset?
SP is not an enforcer of fairness. It never has been. It's a means of granting chosen advantages over other players who haven't chosen those same advantages. The direct result of that is what we have now, where players don't have the same EHP, DPS, speed or access to ships as others.
If the rich can manipulate players who don't understand the game it's no different than anyone else doing the same, and we should all know we exploit a lack of knowledge on another players part already. What I'd personally love though is that the idea of "player is x old and thus this fight will be fair/easy" to die. That kills this supposed doom scenario right from the beginning. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2518
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 23:02:09 -
[1820] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:So, you see some newish alt come in, you kill it easily and when you see it jump a gate, you rush to kill it again ... but now it is in a much tougher ship and hot drops you while hard tackling.
I see a lot more risk adverse game playing in the future. Far more crying about care bears docking up and not coming out to fight.
"Know thy enemy," goes flying out the window. If you rush to a kill to the point of not even checking what ship your enemy is flying - then you deserve to die. D-scan is not a STD. ... Your blah doesn't change how people will behave.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
|
Ryoshu
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 00:46:38 -
[1821] - Quote
Do we have an official price for skill extractors yet? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1890
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 00:50:45 -
[1822] - Quote
Ryoshu wrote:Do we have an official price for skill extractors yet? Unfortunately no.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2264
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 02:07:22 -
[1823] - Quote
Ryoshu wrote:Do we have an official price for skill extractors yet?
This is really the only worthwhile piece of information CCP can give us at this point...
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
TheDamned
Quality Assurance
16
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 02:48:33 -
[1824] - Quote
So the Skill Extractors launch on Feb 9th, correct? So we wont know pricing until then I'm guessing.
|
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 03:46:17 -
[1825] - Quote
Any information regarding price of extractor in AUR store? |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 03:59:08 -
[1826] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Shova'k wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. . If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you?
your wrong cause it's not a belief its a proven fact by what happens in game all the time nice troll attempt tho.
also when do we get to see this skill trading thing in action on sisi so we can make sure its nice and balanced? |
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
36
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 04:59:11 -
[1827] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Mintoko wrote:Shova'k wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. . If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you? your wrong cause it's not a belief its a proven fact by what happens in game all the time nice troll attempt tho. also when do we get to see this skill trading thing in action on sisi so we can make sure its nice and balanced?
You're on one side and others are on the other side. It's one position or the other. It either is or it isn't. You can't dispute the logic, so you call me a troll?
In any issue, you as a supporter will call the opponent a whiner. If by some chance a change goes against you, you complain about the whiners always getting their way. It's always going to be about you and what you want. Everyone else is wrong. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 12:04:52 -
[1828] - Quote
BearStrikesBack wrote:Any information regarding price of extractor in AUR store? Well, on reddit somebody posted the following picture apparently from SiSi.
I would be happy with that price point. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
139
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 14:27:14 -
[1829] - Quote
Duke Paradox wrote:erg cz wrote:All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE. First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.
Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)
Farewell, EVE... This is a stupid point. Have you ever been in a 1v1 fight? The last thing you should be doing is calculating the other guy's skill points. RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL RANGE CONTROL and overheat all the things. That's what you need to be thinking about. A fight between two people with the exact same ships, fits, and SP, almost never happens. Someone always has an advantage. That's the name of the game... Theory crafting an unusual fit will win you more fight than a 5% increase to DPS for 20 days skill training to level V. 5% increase??? If you have your skills at level 1 you get a 5% increase. For example, gunnery skills at level 5 give you:
controlled bursts: -25% cap need for turrets gunnery: +10% fire rate motion prediction: +25% tracking speed rapid firing: +20% fire rate sharpshooter: +25% optimal surgical strike: +15% damage trajectory analysis: +25% falloff
weapon specific skill: +25% damage weapon specific skill for T2: +10 damage + access to T2 guns and ammo
Having max or high skills makes winning a fight much easier. It is right that you cant buy a win with skill trading, but you can definintly buy a big advantage.
Whats next after skill trading? Probably more pay for advantage! CCP selling blueprints for gold ammo? No problem after skill trading! You can use the same reasons to justify it. "Its not P2W because players create it." "Its not P2W because everyone can grind ISK for a PLEX and convert it to AUR to buy golden ammo blueprints." |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2151
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 16:08:38 -
[1830] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:BearStrikesBack wrote:Any information regarding price of extractor in AUR store? Well, on reddit somebody posted the following picture apparently from SiSi. I would be happy with that price point. I don't think this is the real price ... but I'm wondering why CCP makes such a secret about that only a couple of days before it goes live anyway.
EDIT: confirmed by CCP, it is NOT the real price on SiSi.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
|
Citizen 13263952
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 17:23:42 -
[1831] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP.
Was this answered? I'm of the same mind regarding skills you don't want on your board at all. |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 17:26:55 -
[1832] - Quote
Citizen 13263952 wrote:Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. Was this answered? I'm of the same mind regarding skills you don't want on your board at all. Not answered yet.
But the most popular theory is the skill is disabled when it hits 0, and can't be trained out of this disabled mode until its prerequisite requirements are met.
Second most popular theory is you can't take SP from a skill that's already fully trained.
|
Mintoko
Taedium In Perpetuam
37
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 18:24:01 -
[1833] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:Citizen 13263952 wrote:Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. Was this answered? I'm of the same mind regarding skills you don't want on your board at all. Not answered yet. But the most popular theory is the skill is disabled when it hits 0, and can't be trained out of this disabled mode until its prerequisite requirements are met. Second most popular theory is you can't take SP from a skill that's already fully trained.
A skill reduced to level 0 is not removed and can be retrained as long as the prerequisites still exist and skillpoints can be taken from a skill that's fully trained. |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 18:28:22 -
[1834] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote:Citizen 13263952 wrote:Kyt Thrace wrote:OK, My question is simple.
After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.
I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.
Please answer this CCP. Was this answered? I'm of the same mind regarding skills you don't want on your board at all. Not answered yet. But the most popular theory is the skill is disabled when it hits 0, and can't be trained out of this disabled mode until its prerequisite requirements are met. Second most popular theory is you can't take SP from a skill that's already fully trained. A skill reduced to level 0 is not removed and can be retrained as long as the prerequisites still exist and skillpoints can be taken from a skill that's fully trained. ty |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2043
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 18:41:54 -
[1835] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:... Whats next after skill trading? Probably more pay for advantage! CCP selling blueprints for gold ammo? No problem after skill trading! You can use the same reasons to justify it. "Its not P2W because players create it." "Its not P2W because everyone can grind ISK for a PLEX and convert it to AUR to buy golden ammo blueprints."
This is SP trading, not fully packaged skill trading...that's probably next on the list
My concern isn't necessarily about people buying skill points (though I loathe the idea for the many reasons already put forward),
rather it's that this is absolutely not for new players. Sure some will whip out the credit card and buy some, but only those left over that the large power blocks don't buy up. Also since when has taking more money off someone because they are new been good for them?
These will be bought, stockpiled and used as a strategic asset by big/rich groups. Other than that they will be used by players to shuffle SP between alts, either way this will directly impact PLEX price, which will impact the rest of the market. This is ignoring the secondary effects on the market of suddenly perfect skilled miners, mission runners, incursion runners, explorers and manufacturers. This change will affect just about everything to some degree.
We'll wait and see what it does to player numbers, but I doubt it'll massively increase retention of genuinely new (not returning) players.
People accepting monetization because they can benefit from it (probably by using a reserve of in game ISK already acquired) seems very short sighted to me. |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
79
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 18:54:12 -
[1836] - Quote
Well, one thing is for sure. Whether you are in the 'Yes' camp or 'No' camp on this issue there is at least one good thing about Feb 9th.....
.......Pancakes. |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 19:10:48 -
[1837] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Well, one thing is for sure. Whether you are in the 'Yes' camp or 'No' camp on this issue there is at least one good thing about Feb 9th..... .......Pancakes. waffles or death! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2043
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 19:22:29 -
[1838] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote: waffles or death!
If I ever form an alliance I'm using that for the name :D |
Charismus Kilon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 19:45:08 -
[1839] - Quote
aurum pricce posted on their twitter 1 for 999 10 for 7999 |
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 19:45:35 -
[1840] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote: waffles or death!
If I ever form an alliance I'm using that for the name :D long as you don't hold me hostage and demand my waffles <.<
i'd choose death first xD |
|
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 20:13:34 -
[1841] - Quote
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12657328_10153933304054394_6217410085722889067_o.jpg
<3 sooner i can use the sentries on my Stratios the better, 10 day waiting time at the moment. Plus i've got an old character who could use a reshuffle for SP. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
35
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 20:28:37 -
[1842] - Quote
The extractors and injectors should be free or something silly like 100 isk. How can CCP even consider charging real money for something that was introduced as a way of improving content? Also, it's just stupid to decrease the returns for SP's. Are you saying that a higher skilled player can't learn (through injection) as well as a newer player? Kind of insulting isn't it?
You stick with the, "Skills are based on 'real-time' training" but then you take away time? So the training was done in real-time, and a newer player gets 1 hour for 1 hour...but older players get a % of that "actual" time?
How does that even make sense? What if I wanted to extract my own skills from an area that I feel was wasted and inject them into my new priority? Why should I lose a percentage when "I" did the training on a 1:1 basis?
Come on CCP, think about it. If in the future this idea is deemed progressive you will make more money. Don't take a quick fix to the detriment of your loyal player base.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
|
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
197
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 20:40:45 -
[1843] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12657328_10153933304054394_6217410085722889067_o.jpg
<3 sooner i can use the sentries on my Stratios the better, 10 day waiting time at the moment. Plus i've got an old character who could use a reshuffle for SP.
Only ten more days wait..?? WTF..?? I have trained many skills that took over a month, why is it so hard to just wait like everybody else did before you..??
Instant gratification kiddies will be the reasoning behind this games demise, that and CCPs greed to fund other projects before Eve finally dies a horribly embarrassing death.
The huge influx of RL money CCP is going to be making off of this embarrassment is going to be monumental, I can't see a reason why they would not make the tiny step towards full pay to win withing the next few years since buying skills will obviously be a huge financial success, most likely right before this game goes completely WoW kiddie friendly will be my guess.
Was fun while it lasted though, was by far the best MMO ever.
Fellow Eve players please take note: In case you haven't yet noticed HTFU is going to be replaced with P(ay)TFU, that is all..
|
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4627
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 20:55:01 -
[1844] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:(...)
Not really. The price of a subscription can buy you 2700 AUR (3x 900 AUR packages @ 5Gé¼/$) whereas the price of a PLEX can buy you 4035 AUR (1x 3600 AUR package @ 20 Gé¼/$ + 435 AUR bonus),
That's why I estimate that the AUR cost of extractors will be between the 900 AUR package and 1/4 of the second tier package (4035 AUR).
I love being right. Thank you CCP, and don't ever change.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 21:13:42 -
[1845] - Quote
Alea wrote:Lasisha Mishi wrote:https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12657328_10153933304054394_6217410085722889067_o.jpg
<3 sooner i can use the sentries on my Stratios the better, 10 day waiting time at the moment. Plus i've got an old character who could use a reshuffle for SP. Only ten more days wait..?? WTF..?? I have trained many skills that took over a month, why is it so hard to just wait like everybody else did before you..?? Instant gratification kiddies will be the reasoning behind this games demise, that and CCPs greed to fund other projects before Eve finally dies a horribly embarrassing death. The huge influx of RL money CCP is going to be making off of this embarrassment is going to be monumental, I can't see a reason why they would not make the tiny step towards full pay to win withing the next few years since buying skills will obviously be a huge financial success, most likely right before this game goes completely WoW kiddie friendly will be my guess. Was fun while it lasted though, was by far the best MMO ever. never played WoW, but considering WoW is very successful. I don't see how being like WoW is a bad thing.
I like to play, i dislike waiting. If theres something I can do in game to speed up the training time, i do it as its a way to play.
When theres nothing i can do to speed it up through playing, it feels like i'm paying for the privilege of waiting. Is it that surprising i've played since 2010 and yet haven't been subbed for all of 2011,2012, most of 2013, and just returned in 2016. I pay to play, not to wait.
They discussed this when they considered a daily mission reward system. Where your first agent mission gives bonus rewards. No idea if thats still on the board, but it encouraged logging in to play more often, rather than subscribe and leave for a few months.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1891
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 21:35:55 -
[1846] - Quote
Thoughts on price:
With this pricing the character bazaar is obviously safe from any effects injectors may have from a pricing standpoint: - For 7200 AUR one can transfer 4.5million SP - Compare that to a flat 7000 AUR (2 PLEX) fee for a character transfer - Both still have the costs associated with the SP they offer - Looking at how this effects the argument of protecting an attachment to identity: maintaining that identity seems to have a VERY high price point in CCPs eyes, so much so that they're willing to make the price of building not only more expensive, but simply incomparable to Bazaar pricing. Personally that seems to negate the point considerably by making such an extreme advantage to the Bazaar.
This will also likely have an effect on availability of injectors: - I can see people re-evaluating the decision to liberate wasted SP from their heads based on the cost of doing so - This could also be a response to the idea of consolidating alts and CCP wanting to make it prohibitive
Personal opinions on how it affects stated goals and perception: - This is right about the place where the effective "double paying for SP" is a reality to create injectors - This pricing may reflect the desire for this to be an occasional augmentation to a character rather than a primary SP source - Any mechanism that raises the price floor of the item detracts from the stated goal of availability for newer players, and this creates a rather high floor price
I'm not really sure what to think here. The pricing as stated is something I can see negating any of the gainful effects of the idea based on pricing out a wider range of players wanting injectors than hoped on top of making people think twice before even making them. Perhaps there's some logic I'm missing or perhaps I'm just wrong about CCP wanting a robust injector market. That or I'm underestimating the willingness to buy in even at these levels. |
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
5
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:00:43 -
[1847] - Quote
Trading raw unallocated skillpoints, regardless of the diminshing returns, is an absolutely terrible idea and should never happen. There is no way this should be acceptable. I'm not going to say "worst idea ever" or anything like that, because there can always be a worse idea... but this is close. It was bad enough when the implication was that it would be specific skills being transferred and not unallocated SP.
How has this gained so much support? Terrible idea with too much room for abuse. Please, PLEASE, do not implement this. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:08:59 -
[1848] - Quote
Ty, ive stayed quiet but the price ..... I told you so springs to mind
Pure greedy bastards. |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
25
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:14:20 -
[1849] - Quote
Natsuko Kanami wrote:It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101.
Called it :D Obvious tactics are obvious. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1894
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:17:37 -
[1850] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Ty, ive stayed quiet but the price ..... I told you so springs to mind Pure greedy bastards. Now that we have it yes, there's nothing really to justify the price at least in my opinion.
You were correct.
|
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:20:54 -
[1851] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Ty, ive stayed quiet but the price ..... I told you so springs to mind Pure greedy bastards.
Worse thing about this is you can take 500K SP from any skill. some of the long level 5 skills only able to take 500K bring that skill down to level 4. but if your passed 80Mill SP you only getting 150K SP back it takes more SP from you and you are like loosing SP bit harsh on the old Vets or people passed 80Mill SP bit unfair very greedy from CCP
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12657328_10153933304054394_6217410085722889067_o.jpg
who ever came up with this idea to have ingame is one of the worse in a MMO I have ever seen. People at CCP should be a ashamed of them self as a business and CCP are ripping of it loyal old players |
Zoe Jackes
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:27:39 -
[1852] - Quote
Price is **** CCP hang your greedy heads in shame. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:38:07 -
[1853] - Quote
Zoe Jackes wrote:Price is **** CCP hang your greedy heads in shame.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-february-2016-release/
Patch Notes for February 2016 Release 2016-02-05 10:11 Patch Notes for February 2016 Release 1.0 Released on Tuesday, February 9th, 2016
FEATURES & CHANGES :
Skill Trading:
Summary: It will now be possible for players to trade skill points between each other on the in-game market using two new items, the GÇÿSkill ExtractorGÇÖ and GÇÿSkill InjectorGÇÖ. For a detailed overview of the feature please take a look at these two dev blogs: Exploring the Character Bazaar and Skill Trading, and Skill Trading in New Eden.
New Items: Skill Extractor and Skill Injector
Skill Extractor GÇó Skill Extractors are purchased from the new Eden Store for Aurum. GÇó Skill Extractors can be bought and sold in the in-game market. They are listed under GÇÿPilotGÇÖs ServicesGÇÖ. GÇó By consuming a Skill Extractor and extracting 500,000 Skill Points from previously trained skills, players can create a Skill Injector. GÇó There are a number of restrictions to the use of Skill Extractors: Gùª Skill Extractors may be only activated if the client was started using the fully supported game launcher. This is to ensure two-factor authentication support for skill trading. Gùª Characters must be docked and have no active ship. Gùª Characters must have more than 5,500,000 trained skill points. Gùª Skills which are a prerequisite of another trained skill cannot be extracted. (Note here that you can extract if all dependent skills have been extracted first) Gùª The following skills can not be extracted: Gù+ Infomorph Psychology Gù+ Advanced Infomorph Psychology Gù+ Cybernetics Gù+ Command Center Upgrade Gù+ Interplanetary Consolidation
Skill Injector GÇó Skill Injectors can be bought and sold in the in-game market. They are listed under GÇÿPilotGÇÖs ServicesGÇÖ. GÇó Skill Injectors can be consumed by a character to add unallocated skill points in to a characters skill point pool. Gùª These skill points can be distributed immediately, but will stay in the pool indefinitely if not used. Gùª The amount of skill points granted by Skill Injectors varies based on the total skill points trained previously on the character using the injector, according to the following scale: Gù+ Less than 5,000,000 skill points trained -> 500,000 unallocated SP injected Gù+ 5,000,000 - 50,000,000 skill points trained -> 400,000 unallocated SP injected Gù+ 50,000,000 - 80,000,000 skill points trained -> 300,000 unallocated SP injected Gù+ 80,000,000 or greater skill points trained -> 150,000 unallocated SP injected
Gùª The amount of skill points you will receive per injector will be highlighted for you in the show info page for the Skill Injector item.
In conjunction with the Skill Trading feature, weGÇÖve made a number of changes and improvements to skill book injection and the training queue, specifically: GÇó Skills can now be injected at any time, regardless of requirements. GÇó To begin training a skill, you must now either meet all prerequisites for the skill or have at least 1 skillpoint already trained in that skill. GÇó Skills with untrained prerequisites can now be added to the queue if they come after prerequisite training. GÇó Unallocated skillpoints can now be applied to your training queue.
|
Memphis Baas
1046
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:43:35 -
[1854] - Quote
Zoe Jackes wrote:Price is **** CCP hang your greedy heads in shame.
Oh, of course, of course, they're certainly going to change all their forum avatars to eyes-downcast "shame" portraits, but they're likely going from 30,000 online at peak to probably the equivalent of 50-60,000, and it's all "prepaid" transactions. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:49:59 -
[1855] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Zoe Jackes wrote:Price is **** CCP hang your greedy heads in shame. Oh, of course, of course, they're certainly going to change all their forum avatars to eyes-downcast "shame" portraits, but they're likely going from 30,000 online at peak to probably the equivalent of 50-60,000, and it's all "prepaid" transactions.
I wonder if CCP are going to reduce the subscription Or Monthly Subscription as we are getting Ripped off With SP Skill Trading
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 22:57:43 -
[1856] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Zoe Jackes wrote:Price is **** CCP hang your greedy heads in shame. Oh, of course, of course, they're certainly going to change all their forum avatars to eyes-downcast "shame" portraits, but they're likely going from 30,000 online at peak to probably the equivalent of 50-60,000, and it's all "prepaid" transactions.
You live in a dream world, although i found the idea of sp trading offensive to say the least you had all these new and prospective players thinking this was going to be there saving grace into a game based round time. This pricing is royally giving them the two fingered salute
As usual with CCP there aurum prices bare no correlation to the items being sold either, so now its just a case of watching to see how the alliance's and wallet warriors purchasing will effect the plex. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
411
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:15:01 -
[1857] - Quote
Natsuko Kanami wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101. Called it :D Obvious tactics are obvious. I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies.
Malcanis's Law comes to mind.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:24:30 -
[1858] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101. Called it :D Obvious tactics are obvious. I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies. Malcanis's Law comes to mind. This isn't a case of Malcanis' law. The pricing helps no one really. The cost for reallocating or consolidating, 2 vet centric applications, is beyond my willingness to entertain and I doubt I'm the only one. They could still be useful in alt creation, but that parallels the expected benefit to new players, just with a known and IMHO higher than healthy cost.
So unless Malc's law was recently revised to "Expensive for everybody" this doesn't fit. |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
35
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:26:51 -
[1859] - Quote
Has anyone done the math on how long will a new pilot take to train his SP's to 5.5m?
Basically the new players will have to train for 5-6 months before they can start buying/injecting skills.
So, is it really for the new players? Not so much as CCP's pocket.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:28:57 -
[1860] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Has anyone done the math on how long will a new pilot take to train his SP's to 5.5m?
Basically the new players will have to train for 5-6 months before they can start buying/injecting skills.
So, is it really for the new players? Not so much as CCP's pocket. A character can inject skills at any time, there is no minimum. The only limit is extracting which is the 5.5mill stated. |
|
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
35
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:33:38 -
[1861] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:pajedas wrote:Has anyone done the math on how long will a new pilot take to train his SP's to 5.5m?
Basically the new players will have to train for 5-6 months before they can start buying/injecting skills.
So, is it really for the new players? Not so much as CCP's pocket. A character can inject skills at any time, there is no minimum. The only limit is extracting which is the 5.5mill stated. I just read that part over again, I guess I need to train up my skimming skills.
I stand by my greedy CCP comment though.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
|
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
411
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:38:36 -
[1862] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101. Called it :D Obvious tactics are obvious. I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies. Malcanis's Law comes to mind. This isn't a case of Malcanis' law. The pricing helps no one really. The cost for reallocating or consolidating, 2 vet centric applications, is beyond my willingness to entertain and I doubt I'm the only one. They could still be useful in alt creation, but that parallels the expected benefit to new players, just with a known and IMHO higher than healthy cost. So unless Malc's law was recently revised to "Expensive for everybody" this doesn't fit. For big alliances and entrenched vets this will be easily affordable, for everyone else this will be prohibitive. Malcanis's Law applies perfectly.
And to make this gift to the big alliances the cost has been to knock down a fundamental pillar of the game.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
170
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:47:48 -
[1863] - Quote
This was never meant to be great for newbies just entering the game. This is still good for "newbies" who are maybe 8-10 months old, who can boost themselves over some SP hurdle with the ISK they've farmed.
Will this be abusable? While most scenarios people are crying about is not really an abuse or even something the abuser would profit from, it is still possible that the feature could be abused. But I'm sure CCP will monitor for exploits like any other exploit out there.
The facts are, that it is still much MUCH cheaper to buy a character off the bazaar. As well as, the free market should, in theory, counteract attempts on buying out SP on the market. Hopefully, this change will make people realize how pointless a metric for "power" SP actually are. If someone have subbed their account for 6 months longer than someone else, does that make them automatically better than the lower subbed player? And let's assume this actually was the case, is it fair to make characters more powerful, just based on the time they've subscribed? Isn't that basically P2W too?
SP is just a means to an end, but it doesn't tell you how good someone is at the game. More SP on your character does not mean you've "won" EvE more than someone else. It just means you can do more stuff. I supported this change from the start and personally I think it's great to see a method of accelerating the SP training, so people can be out in space doing more stuff. Compared to sitting in station or being offline, waiting for those skills to finish. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2046
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:52:21 -
[1864] - Quote
pajedas wrote:...How can CCP even consider charging real money for something that was introduced as a way of improving content?...
It's not to improve content, it's to improve cashflow. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:53:22 -
[1865] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies.
Malcanis's Law comes to mind. This isn't a case of Malcanis' law. The pricing helps no one really. The cost for reallocating or consolidating, 2 vet centric applications, is beyond my willingness to entertain and I doubt I'm the only one. They could still be useful in alt creation, but that parallels the expected benefit to new players, just with a known and IMHO higher than healthy cost. So unless Malc's law was recently revised to "Expensive for everybody" this doesn't fit. For big alliances and entrenched vets this will be easily affordable, for everyone else this will be prohibitive. Malcanis's Law applies perfectly. And to make this gift to the big alliances the cost has been to knock down a fundamental pillar of the game. In terms of raw isk it's "affordable," in terms of estimated cost for effect it's not. Estimates are looking towards 1B isk for 1 mill SP. At alliance levels the costs are unable to be reconciled with the alliance level gains. At personal levels, between diminishing returns and cost, there is no actual point of triviality since prices for use approach 1B isk for 300k SP.
If you count it as a benefit that the entrenched can afford them as a commodity while having a further penalty on the already abysmal return then there's no avoiding Malcani's law with or without this since anything for isk will be able to be leveraged more by them.
But that distinction is pretty meaningless don't you think?
|
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
35
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:57:15 -
[1866] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:pajedas wrote:...How can CCP even consider charging real money for something that was introduced as a way of improving content?... It's not to improve content, it's to improve cashflow. +1 for calling it like ya see it.
Just tired of people telling me they're doing me a favor and charging me for it.
*Why should I lose SP's if I pay $ for the extractor and then inject them into another area?
Should be 1:1 regardless. Say there are 100 trillion SP's total in Eve Online. Those were bought and paid for in way of subscriptions. Now they're saying those will simply be flushed down the toilet if a higher SP player uses them?
Does that make sense to anyone?
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 01:39:58 -
[1867] - Quote
I was such a huge supporter for these. Now prices are out and I was completely wrong. Seriously F**k you CCP for lying to us saying these are for newbros which by the pricing it's clearly all to line your pockets. Seriously considering unsubbing my four accounts for you re-tarded marketing schemes and blatant bs. |
Edwin Wyatt
New Eden Deep Space Industries Warped Intentions
82
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 01:58:37 -
[1868] - Quote
If i cannot remove the skill book after reducing the SP to 0, than I see no point in wasting my money on this. CCP has missed the mark from the players perspective. all I see is another reason for a CC to be used to gain an advantage in the game.
Shame on you CCP, you can only milk the cow for so long.
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 02:23:14 -
[1869] - Quote
Mintoko wrote:Shova'k wrote:Mintoko wrote:Shova'k wrote:the people who whine this is pay to win are like terrorist they are stuck in their one sided belief no matter what any one tells them they will not change their belief. i made multiple posts point out that pay to win does not exist in even and pretty much cant. UNLESS CCP finds a way to directly copy experience and knowledge from players who have been around a while then upload that into new players for a FEE that would be the only way you could pay to win at eve and since that isnt possible yet lol. . If the "whiners" are like terrorists in their one-sided belief, then what are you? Your belief that it's not pay to win is also one-sided and nothing anyone says will change your mind. So what are you? your wrong cause it's not a belief its a proven fact by what happens in game all the time nice troll attempt tho. also when do we get to see this skill trading thing in action on sisi so we can make sure its nice and balanced? You're on one side and others are on the other side. It's one position or the other. It either is or it isn't. You can't dispute the logic, so you call me a troll? In any issue, you as a supporter will call the opponent a whiner. If by some chance a change goes against you, you complain about the whiners always getting their way. It's always going to be about you and what you want. Everyone else is wrong. Skill trading is already active on Sisi. Extractors are available in the exchange in packs of 1, 5, and 10.
i never once supported this or opposed it have said so many times nice try tho, and its not a side or belief when its simple logic backed by solid evidence of the game itself. this game has proven time and time again that SP dont matter when you dont know what your doing. the only time it really mattered was when the game first came out and no one had experience or skill at the game yet. no matter how you look at it this isnt any more pay to win then buying a character on the bazaar which also is not pay to win. you save time nothing more specially since you cant win eve like some one mentioned before the closest you can come to winning at eve is figureing out how to make so much isk chribba gets jealous, and all you really won is the ability to afford to try everything in eve and get bored faster. i mean there are people who posted videos of low sp mining alt's in a hulk taking out cruisers who can flip them.
as mentioned many times i do not support or oppose this system i just enjoy educated people on the facts they cant seem to comprehend. tbh they should allow the skill extractors at the cost of 1 bill isk worth of aurm let u remove 1 entire skill with it (fully remove as in not in your head at 0 even) but lose that sp for ever be nice for those of us who regret a few skills in the past lol. |
Memphis Baas
1049
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 02:31:53 -
[1870] - Quote
Edwin Wyatt wrote:If i cannot remove the skill book after reducing the SP to 0, than I see no point in wasting my money on this.
The Patch Notes say that, as an added feature, they're letting us inject any skill book, regardless of prerequisites, so anyone could go to a school station, buy all the skills they need (they're probably thinking of introducing skill packs soon), and just inject away, basically ending up with "all skills at 0". Then all they have to do is set up their training queue to train prerequisites then skills then more prerequisites and more skills.
So there will be other people with a bunch of skills at 0, no worries. Extractor people won't be the only ones.
It frees newbies to let them go to school, inject a whole bunch of skill books, then head out to live in nullsec or wormhole space, and no longer be restricted by the need to visit high-sec schools periodically. |
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 02:53:35 -
[1871] - Quote
one question since some one always finds a way to abuse stuff in this game.
Will the injectors account for allocated SP when doing the calculation for how much to add to their pool? if not then people can just inject tons of injectors at 500 k then apply the sp later hope this wont be the case. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 02:56:41 -
[1872] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:one question since some one always finds a way to abuse stuff in this game.
Will the injectors account for allocated SP when doing the calculation for how much to add to their pool? if not then people can just inject tons of injectors at 500 k then apply the sp later hope this wont be the case. They weren't on the test server, but this was confirmed by a dev to be a bug and should be counting unallocated SP.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 03:01:19 -
[1873] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:For big alliances and entrenched vets this will be easily affordable, for everyone else this will be prohibitive. Malcanis's Law applies perfectly. they are more affordable (and more useful) for vets no matter what price they are |
OldWolf69
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
211
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 03:04:38 -
[1874] - Quote
Just . "Working as intended". Grats CCp for a new troll on the playerbase. |
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 03:45:51 -
[1875] - Quote
People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 03:59:06 -
[1876] - Quote
galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably.
Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period. |
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:07:16 -
[1877] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period.
No, they didn't "lie to us" - it's priced cheap enough regardless of the subscription model or not. Subscription+plex is more than affordable and something many people already do for isk. There's nothing about a 999aurum extractor that's beyond some newbies budget. Face it, you wanted to hate this no matter what price they used. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:22:01 -
[1878] - Quote
galtest12345 wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period. No, they didn't "lie to us" - it's priced cheap enough regardless of the subscription model or not. Subscription+plex is more than affordable and something many people already do for isk. There's nothing about a 999aurum extractor that's beyond some newbies budget. Face it, you wanted to hate this no matter what price they used.
lol, you should check my post history regarding this topic. I was one of the strongest supporters for it from the get go. The way they priced these extractors is a clear indicator that they're only after money and not really supporting newbros which is how they spun this originally. Due to the fact they priced it the way have + the spin for helping newbros = a flat lie to the player base.
|
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:24:15 -
[1879] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period. No, they didn't "lie to us" - it's priced cheap enough regardless of the subscription model or not. Subscription+plex is more than affordable and something many people already do for isk. There's nothing about a 999aurum extractor that's beyond some newbies budget. Face it, you wanted to hate this no matter what price they used. lol, you should check my post history regarding this topic. I was one of the strongest supporters for it from the get go. The way they priced these extractors is a clear indicator that they're only after money and not really supporting newbros which is how they spun this originally. Due to the fact they priced it the way have + the spin for helping newbros = a flat lie to the player base.
So 999 aurum for an extractor is prohibitively expensive? You might want to ask your boss for a raise. Maybe get a paper round on the weekends, you'd be able to afford one every week then. Seriously, It's 999 aurum. How much cheaper did you think it would be? A whole dollar cheaper? A dollar fifty? Oh goodness, the newbros can't afford it if it's 999 aurum instead of 799. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:26:45 -
[1880] - Quote
galtest12345 wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period. No, they didn't "lie to us" - it's priced cheap enough regardless of the subscription model or not. Subscription+plex is more than affordable and something many people already do for isk. There's nothing about a 999aurum extractor that's beyond some newbies budget. Face it, you wanted to hate this no matter what price they used. lol, you should check my post history regarding this topic. I was one of the strongest supporters for it from the get go. The way they priced these extractors is a clear indicator that they're only after money and not really supporting newbros which is how they spun this originally. Due to the fact they priced it the way have + the spin for helping newbros = a flat lie to the player base. So 999 aurum for an extractor is prohibitively expensive? You might want to ask your boss for a raise. Maybe get a paper round on the weekends, you'd be able to afford one every week then. Seriously, It's 999 aurum. How much cheaper did you think it would be? A whole dollar cheaper? A dollar fifty? Oh goodness, the newbros can't afford it if it's 999 aurum instead of 799.
You're missing the point entirely. Oh well, some are a lost cause, you're one of them. Fair well.
|
|
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:33:15 -
[1881] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:
You're missing the point entirely. Oh well, some are a lost cause, you're one of them. Fair well.
I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with you. See ya then.
|
Vile Swan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:36:10 -
[1882] - Quote
CCP I'd like to say on behalf of the whole game. Thank you for F*****g garbage price you put on the extractors. It will only cost $100 to get a new toon to 15 million skillpoints bahahahahaha. LONG LIVE CCP. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 04:53:56 -
[1883] - Quote
galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. People have been saying it's "not for new players" from the combination of the facts that the injectors are in game sold and more easily obtainable by veteran players. The group getting them without cost from the buyers perspective and having the ability to roll alts made this something with a decent vet use potential.
It's hard to consider it for new players when their the ones having to spend cash for it rather than their ability to do so making it for them. And we're talking about something that we now know to have a base cost of a bit under 1/4th of a PLEX before the markey even has a vhance to say what the SP is actually worth. That's not really anyone friendly much less players without in game assets to eat part f the cost. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:01:57 -
[1884] - Quote
As much as I would love to see this program wither and die I have to say this price point is absurd. 2 PLEX to move 3.5m sp? A slightly bigger cut than the character bazaar, no? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13536
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:03:10 -
[1885] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:Natsuko Kanami wrote:It's gonna be 1000 AUR. That way you buy a PLEX, convert it to 3500 AUR, buy 3 extractors, and have 500 AUR left over. Then you think to yourself "well, I have these 500 AUR left over, if I just buy another PLEX I'll have 4000 AUR and can buy 4 more, so I get one 'extra'". Milking 101. Called it :D Obvious tactics are obvious. I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies. Malcanis's Law comes to mind. This isn't a case of Malcanis' law. The pricing helps no one really. The cost for reallocating or consolidating, 2 vet centric applications, is beyond my willingness to entertain and I doubt I'm the only one. They could still be useful in alt creation, but that parallels the expected benefit to new players, just with a known and IMHO higher than healthy cost. So unless Malc's law was recently revised to "Expensive for everybody" this doesn't fit.
Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar).
Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking.
|
OldWolf69
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
212
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:04:13 -
[1886] - Quote
beakerax wrote:As much as I would love to see this program wither and die I have to say this price point is absurd. 2 PLEX to move 3.5m sp? A slightly bigger cut than the character bazaar, no? These items will collect a lot of dust in the AUR store hahahahahahaha
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33280
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:05:55 -
[1887] - Quote
I thought any nonzero AUR cost was excessive, but then I remembered there are real labor costs for developing the mechanic, bug fixing, and customer service / ticket support related to the transactions. Discounting those operating costs would be bad accounting just like high sec industrialists who discount their time as "free." It was ambiguous to say "the value is in the SP" but overall I think the AUR cost is fair.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:08:02 -
[1888] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar).
Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking. This doesn't abide by my way of thinking as evidenced by that and other post I've made. But hey, don't let the actual content of my posts get in the way of your narrative I suppose. The inevitable result of my way of thinking would have resulted in a much lower price point rather than something comparable to the price of creating the SP itself, as I've stated numerous times on at least 4 threads.
Remember Jen, hard as it may be to realize CCP isn't stuck with boolean choices of "this price or nothing at all." Each aspect was independent of the others with plenty of room to do it correctly.
Rain6637 wrote:I thought any nonzero AUR cost was excessive, but then I remembered there are real labor costs for developing the mechanic, bug fixing, and customer service / ticket support related to the transactions. Discounting those operating costs would be bad accounting just like high sec industrialists who discount their time as "free." It was ambiguous to say "the value is in the SP" but overall I think the AUR cost is fair. The development of the mechanic seems trivial compared to other changes of greater magnitude and gameplay effect, yet we don't see direct associated cost recovery there. That makes this a reasoning I can't really buy. I had no issue with a non-zero cost, but was of the opinion that the stated goals favored moving it to a low price point not comparable with the price points CCP has already placed on gaining SP normally (training certs). |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13536
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:16:49 -
[1889] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar).
Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking. This doesn't abide by my way of thinking as evidenced by that and other post I've made. But hey, don't let the actual content of my posts get in the way of your narrative I suppose. The inevitable result of my way of thinking would have resulted in a much lower price point rather than something comparable to the price of creating the SP itself, as I've stated numerous times on at least 4 threads.
Not so much talking about the price, more talking about your inability to understand the reasons some of us don't like the general idea. Now you will get to live with the consequences of your way of thinking, as the feature you were so gung ho about does nothing you wanted to and benefits ...folks like me who otherwise would not have benefitted.
Like I said, the Character Bazaar was balanced by it's faults and the fact that it is a necessary evil (against illegal character trading). Wise folk understand that trying to legitimize and monetize something that only exists as a necessary evil turns that thing into nothing but an 'actual evil'. In this case, the rich will get richer, the poor and new will suffer (as the gap between them and folks like me that can speed up training with a couple of injectors per month).
You would have seen it coming had you not been so obstinate.
|
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
25
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:20:24 -
[1890] - Quote
Oh CCP, you never learn, do you? One would think you have learned your lesson with Monoclegate, and then you decide to suicide gank yourself even harder.
I hope you'll enjoy your short influx of cash, because you'll start to lose more than you gain in the following months as subscription numbers drop off. I re-PLEXed a few days ago for one last time to tie up some loose ends with people before I ragequit, but I regret even doing that much. You don't deserve a single cent.
You're opening Pandora's box of cancer, and there is no going back. You're pushing the big, red self-destruct button for what is probably the best game ever created. There will not be another EVE for many years to come, despite your futile attempts to re-create something this great with your pet projects.
I'm off to play Blade & Soul. It's almost a joke putting that game in the same context as EVE. In comparison, it's simplistic, plain, not challenging at all, has no depth to it, and the endgame is boring. A braindead monkey can probably play it well. But guess what? It kills time, it's free to play and still not pay to win, and the company running it doesn't intentionally self-destruct it to squeeze out another buck from all the idiots willing to tolerate that.
For my parting words, I'll rephrase a proverb for you: "When the last core mechanic has been raped, the last challenge made easier, the last player unsubscribed, only then will you realize that one cannot milk a dead game." |
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:20:38 -
[1891] - Quote
oh god smugness overload |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33280
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:21:50 -
[1892] - Quote
Natsuko can't hear you, they're playing Blade & Soul.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:24:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Not so much talking about the price, more talking about your inability to understand the reasons some of us don't like the general idea. Now you will get to live with the consequences of your way of thinking, as the feature you were so gung ho about does nothing you wanted to and benefits ...folks like me who otherwise would not have benefitted.
Like I said, the Character Bazaar was balanced by it's faults and the fact that it is a necessary evil (against illegal character trading). Wise folk understand that trying to legitimize and monetize something that only exists as a necessary evil turns that thing into nothing but an 'actual evil'. In this case, the rich will get richer, the poor and new will suffer (as the gap between them and folks like me that can speed up training with a couple of injectors per month).
You would have seen it coming had you not been so obstinate. I understand the reasons many didn't like it.
Their still rooted in the same false overvaluation of SP and the attempts to twist a sense of fairness from a mechanically enforced inequality. This doesn't change that.
Further you're back to your imaginings about some advantage I would have anticipated you wouldn't get when again I've on several posts stated there is plenty of room for vet use, before the 80m+ bracket got boosted.
You still speak about the Bazaar being necessary You for some reason seem to not think it was already a monetization of an "evil" You don't actually understand what I expected from vets regardless of the price You think CCPs pricing actually validates the objections of those who overvalue SP
And yet none of this is actually the case. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:44:12 -
[1894] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Natsuko can't hear you, they're playing Blade & Soul. my remark was actually directed at Jenn but things worked out ok I guess
Tyberius Franklin wrote:They're still rooted in the same false overvaluation of SP and the attempts to twist a sense of fairness from a mechanically enforced inequality. wow those sound like very bad people, it's a good thing ccp didn't listen to them |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:46:49 -
[1895] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:They're still rooted in the same false overvaluation of SP and the attempts to twist a sense of fairness from a mechanically enforced inequality. wow those sound like very bad people, it's a good thing ccp didn't listen to them Indeed, though it's unfortunate that they still found a way to avoid achieving their stated goals.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 05:59:55 -
[1896] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:it's unfortunate that they still found a way to avoid achieving their stated goals. truly, no-one could have anticipated this |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1896
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 06:04:09 -
[1897] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:it's unfortunate that they still found a way to avoid achieving their stated goals. truly, no-one could have anticipated this The problem is this wasn't an inevitable result, but it is one that I now agree with given the AUR cost presented. But the root of this being an issue was that it was entirely avoidable. It wasn't something inherent to the idea, but is the likely result of one specific independent factor.
But I suppose we'll all see how this really plays out.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 06:19:31 -
[1898] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:But I suppose we'll all see how this really plays out. This is true.
I'm not fully convinced the twitter image was the official price announcement anyways. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6938
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 07:19:02 -
[1899] - Quote
Oh ho, now we've got something interesting to work with.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 07:26:43 -
[1900] - Quote
lol at the people assuming the low aurum price on extracts will make it cheap to use injectors ignoring the fact almost no one is gonna give away 500 k SP for free they are gonna milk every isk/sp they can in selling the injectors on the open market + the cost of aurum for the extractor. and weather your getting the full 500 k or only 150 k from an injector your still paying for 500 k worth of SP meaning buying a characater on the bazaar is much cheaper if you want more then the 5 mill sp u will get from injects before they become less effective.
tbh this over all isnt gonna be worth much seeing as extraction from what im seeing is gonna leave the skills in your head at 0 that basically removes all interest i had in it lol woulda been nice to delete a few skills but not if they gonna sit at 0 looking like **** :P |
|
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
432
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 08:34:38 -
[1901] - Quote
Shova'k wrote: also why are the 2 planetary interaction skill except from extraction? those are prolly 2 of the most desirable skills to get rid of lol 0_o
Build 6 PI farms, remove SP (skills only needed to create the farm, not to operate it!), move SP to your alt, build 5 PI farms (damn diminishing returns), repeat.
There are other skills which offer this kind of abuse, let's see how long it takes for CCP to exclude them vom SP extraction, too.
|
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 09:55:44 -
[1902] - Quote
Interesting, how everyone was complaining/crying/ragequitting because this feature would be abused en masse. Now everyone is complaining because the feature will be too expensive to be used en masse. Lol.
Anyway, let's look at some figures, shall we?
We want to calculate the minimum and maximum sustainable range of the price of injectors in terms of the price of PLEX. (= In the long run, how many injectors does one PLEX buy?)
I assume a moderate gain of 1.8 mil SP per month game time, and I assume that extractors are bought at discount, 4.3 extractors per PLEX.
The maximum price of injectors is given by skillpoint farming.
If you farm SP, you can sell (1.8 mio SP / month) / (0.5 mio SP / injector) = 3.6 injectors per month. Thus you have to break 3.6 / 4.3 = 0.84 PLEX into AUR into extractors, and you have to finance 1 day of training time. So you spend 1.84 PLEX to create 3.6 injectors.
This puts the maximum sustainable price of an injector at about half the price of a PLEX.
If the market price for injectors were short term higher than this threshold, SP farming became viable, and an infinite supply of injectors would be created, keeping the market price below this threshold in the long term.
A reasonable minimum price of injectors is given by free disposal of unwanted skillpoints.
Let's assume people are willing to rip out unwanted skillpoints "for free", but they are not willing to pay premium for the privilege of mutilating their chars. This is a sound assumption at least after an initial release of unwanted skillpoints for cosmetic reasons by the OCD crowd (myself, included).
Then by a similar calculation as above, you still need 0.84 PLEX to create 3.6 injectors, but you don't need that one additional PLEX to finance training time, because you are using up your existing skillpoints.
This puts the minimum sustainable price of an injector at about a quarter of the price of a PLEX.
Arguably, the market price, in the absence of any demand, could go as low as zero, but this is not a likely scenario. People are valuating SP a lot, given the price of a MPTC in comparison to PLEX prices. We might see a dip from mass character sheet clean ups on day one, but that's a one off effect.
So in the long term, the market price of an injector will be between 1/4 and 1/2 of the price of a PLEX.
So much for supply. Now let's look at the demand, the buyers' side.
In the best case (lowest price possible, new player with <5 Mio SP) you get four injectors worth 2 mio SP for the price of one PLEX. This PLEX would have netted you 1.8 mio SP and one month of playtime.
Seems like a 'fair' deal for a newer casual player. It's not great, and one would probably be better off buying a PLEX and activating for game time and training, but it's not a rip off, either. I think CCP nailed this price point.
In the worst case (highest price possible, high SP player) you get two injectors worth 0.3 mio SP for the price of one PLEX. You'll get less than 20% of the SP you would have gained from training, and you also don't get one month of playtime. Bad deal? Probably. A few space rich will still make their dream char, but it will most likely not be a game breaking mass phenomenon.
As for myself, I will probably use my 2.000 complementary AUR I once got to buy two extractors, clean up my character sheet and dump the injectors to whatever the market price is on day one. Then never touch this feature again. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2048
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 09:59:14 -
[1903] - Quote
Samsara Toldya wrote:Shova'k wrote: also why are the 2 planetary interaction skill except from extraction? those are prolly 2 of the most desirable skills to get rid of lol 0_o
Build 6 PI farms, remove SP (skills only needed to create the farm, not to operate it!), move SP to your alt, build 5 PI farms (damn diminishing returns), repeat. There are other skills which offer this kind of abuse, let's see how long it takes for CCP to exclude them vom SP extraction, too.
If this is possible then that's plain stupid and zhould be viewed as an exploit. In design terms I'd say it's a sign of a flawed mechanic once you have to dtart recoding for 'special' cases. |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
79
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 10:22:46 -
[1904] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:pajedas wrote:...How can CCP even consider charging real money for something that was introduced as a way of improving content?... It's not to improve content, it's to improve cashflow. +1 for calling it like ya see it. Just tired of people telling me they're doing me a favor and charging me for it. *Why should I lose SP's if I pay $ for the extractor and then inject them into another area? Should be 1:1 regardless. Say there are 100 trillion SP's total in Eve Online. Those were bought and paid for in way of subscriptions. Now they're saying those will simply be flushed down the toilet if a higher SP player uses them? Does that make sense to anyone?
I hear what you are saying but being able to redistribute SP, even just on your own char, at no % loss would destroy the game and the need for different skill areas.
Example: You fly a dread to your alliances skill and fitting requirements. Next week they change the dread flavour to another race. In your statement above the player could, at the price of paying CCP for extractors, redisrtibute the SP to another races Dread with no penalty. This mechanic would never be viable in anyway shape or form and would be abused until it hurts no more.
Also, and i have stated this many times, part of the beauty of Eve is your char sheet. Its a history of teh gaming decisions you have made through the years. No there will be the ability to manipulate this. For me this devalues your training decisions to almost nothing simply because all these decisions can be re-written simply by getting your credit card out. (Yes i accept it may not be the best finaclial decision but the fact is it now is possible..and there lies the problem). |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 10:31:33 -
[1905] - Quote
Samsara Toldya wrote:Shova'k wrote: also why are the 2 planetary interaction skill except from extraction? those are prolly 2 of the most desirable skills to get rid of lol 0_o
Build 6 PI farms, remove SP (skills only needed to create the farm, not to operate it!), move SP to your alt, build 5 PI farms (damn diminishing returns), repeat. There are other skills which offer this kind of abuse, let's see how long it takes for CCP to exclude them vom SP extraction, too.
thats a flaw on their part then :( i stopped using my PI skills about 30 minutes after trying them out i shoulda been less lazy and checked it out on sisi first lol but back then sisi was a chore to set up and patch vs now with the new launcher having it in a drop down list of servers. oh well guess those of us who dont even bother with them get punished lol. although since skills will stay in character sheet at 0 kinda moot anyway since that will basically cause my OCD to overload lol |
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
24
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 11:27:21 -
[1906] - Quote
YAY! It's lower than the price i was hoping for. THANKS CCP! Already converted 5 PLEX to 17,500 AUR, just waiting for the patch to hit now. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 12:44:13 -
[1907] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:CCP I'd like to say on behalf of the whole game. Thank you for F*****g garbage price you put on the extractors. It will only cost $100 to get a new toon to 15 million skillpoints bahahahahaha. LONG LIVE CCP.
Even Blizzard, the masters of sucking money out of their customers' wallets, 'only' charge -ú40 for a maximum level character.
If I want to extract 15M SP from one character (not a huge amount in the scheme of things) and give it to another - losing 3M in the process - it will cost roughly -ú100.
Sorry CCP, I might have spent -ú50, but -ú100 is too much. |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 13:18:35 -
[1908] - Quote
Samsara Toldya wrote:Shova'k wrote: also why are the 2 planetary interaction skill except from extraction? those are prolly 2 of the most desirable skills to get rid of lol 0_o
Build 6 PI farms, remove SP (skills only needed to create the farm, not to operate it!), move SP to your alt, build 5 PI farms (damn diminishing returns), repeat. There are other skills which offer this kind of abuse, let's see how long it takes for CCP to exclude them vom SP extraction, too.
I think the reason is more related to existing assets that are skill related (implants, PI, clones).
If you look at social skills - I would not call it an exploit to remove them once you have reached your desired (unmodified) standings.
Did not investigate deeper into Corporation management skills - I think extracting Anchoring after setting up a POS is something they will just not look into as it has only marginal effects. The other corporation management skills are interesting of course - what happens if you extract Empire Control and never update your corp? |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 13:41:55 -
[1909] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:one question since some one always finds a way to abuse stuff in this game.
Will the injectors account for allocated SP when doing the calculation for how much to add to their pool? if not then people can just inject tons of injectors at 500 k then apply the sp later hope this wont be the case.
They do on SiSi. |
Memphis Baas
1049
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 14:26:48 -
[1910] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:CCP I'd like to say on behalf of the whole game. Thank you for F*****g garbage price you put on the extractors. It will only cost $100 to get a new toon to 15 million skillpoints bahahahahaha. LONG LIVE CCP.
You are aware that the cheapest subscription plan is to pre-pay for 1 year, at $10 / month, $131.40 (with tax), and that gets you 20 million skillpoints trained the normal way? Most people use the monthly subscription and that's $225 for 20 million SP? So 15 million SP for $100 is what we already pay, just all at once, which I guess is a shock.
You are aware that on the Character Bazaar, a 15 million SP toon will go for 7-8B, which is 6 PLEX = $120?
So how did you expect them to price this new feature? So cheaply that it invalidates the slow training in-game AND the character bazaar?
5 pages back, there's 4-5 people who predicted the price "first", and it's because 1000 Aur is the most common sense prediction. It was the best guess as soon as they announced they were going to do this.
Best part is that the injectors don't cost AUR, just ISK, so the vets with 50-100 TRILLION in their wallets can afford skillpoints easily. As can all the players who currently play "for free", grinding ISK per month to pay for their sub costs. Now just a bit more grinding = accelerated training.
This feature makes it possible to grind harder to advance faster, which, while it may not be a desirable thing to have, is how all the other MMO's operate. You play non-stop and without sleep for a full weekend, you can get a max level character in Diablo3, WoW, SWTOR, etc.
EVE is the only one that blocks you from wasting your time like that... well, no more.
|
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 15:04:49 -
[1911] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Vile Swan wrote:CCP I'd like to say on behalf of the whole game. Thank you for F*****g garbage price you put on the extractors. It will only cost $100 to get a new toon to 15 million skillpoints bahahahahaha. LONG LIVE CCP. You are aware that the cheapest subscription plan is to pre-pay for 1 year, at $10 / month, $131.40 (with tax), and that gets you 20 million skillpoints trained the normal way? Most people use the monthly subscription and that's $225 for 20 million SP? So 15 million SP for $100 is what we already pay, just all at once, which I guess is a shock. You are aware that on the Character Bazaar, a 15 million SP toon will go for 7-8B, which is 6 PLEX = $120?
This is true. But if you want to shift SP between characters on your own account, not only are you not gaining any SP, you are actually losing SP (if the recipient character has over 5M SP).
What I would have liked to have seen is a process that allowed you to differentiate between creating an injector to trade, and swapping SP between characters on your account, although I don't know what that would look like. Hell, even if the donor character was destroyed in the process, that would be preferable to me than the current system. |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 15:20:56 -
[1912] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:[
You are aware that the cheapest subscription plan is to pre-pay for 1 year, at $10 / month, $131.40 (with tax), and that gets you 20 million skillpoints trained the normal way? Most people use the monthly subscription and that's $225 for 20 million SP? So 15 million SP for $100 is what we already pay, just all at once, which I guess is a shock.
You are aware that on the Character Bazaar, a 15 million SP toon will go for 7-8B, which is 6 PLEX = $120?
depends on the remap and focus if you stick to a perfect remap with +5's thats 2700 sp per hour which ads up to 23,652,000 of course if lower implants are used or u stray off your remap focus it can be as low as 15 mill for the year.
as for a 15 mill sp char on bazaar it will depend on the focus and what is in demand i seen some go for 15-20 bill cause of focus/good name and standings and some barely break eve cause of poor focus. injectors will prolly even have traders abuse them on the market unless ccp makes a rule against it. since sp you can do as u like with will be of high value. injectors may end up costing more on the market then a char of twice the sp with good focus on bazaar in the end of course only time will tell but its a high likely hood.
@ dibz just being able to 100% move sp to extra chars on same act would be broken and abused by character farmers they would buy crapy cheap chars after trolling the sell its worthless then move the sp to a new char sell for epic profit and repeat so ya that would not work out at all. |
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 15:40:42 -
[1913] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:@ dibz just being able to 100% move sp to extra chars on same act would be broken and abused by character farmers they would buy crapy cheap chars after trolling the sell its worthless then move the sp to a new char sell for epic profit and repeat so ya that would not work out at all.
Maybe they could make it so that if you transferred SP between characters on one account, that account would become ineligible for the transfer process for 12 months. Or something |
Soltys
61
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 15:55:29 -
[1914] - Quote
If that twitter pic is for real, then like someone else wrote earlier in this thread:
Are you stupidly greedy or greedily stupid ?
1k aur for a single extractor ? Did you fall on your head in the morning ? Didn't the meaning behind the word "micro" register ? Did you hire some marketing "guru" from Gameforge or so ?
That's not even mentioning non-aligining price with aur, which on its own is a primitive trick.
Oh well.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Driver
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 15:59:09 -
[1915] - Quote
Soltys wrote:If that twitter pic is for real, then like someone else wrote earlier in this thread: Are you stupidly greedy or greedily stupid ? 1k aur for a single extractor ? Did you fall on your head in the morning ? Didn't the meaning behind the word "micro" register ? Did you hire some marketing "guru" from Gameforge or so ? That's not even mentioning non-aligining price with aur, which on its own is a primitive trick. Oh well.
Worse, they hired someone from EA. |
Sarina Aideron
Aideron Corp
14
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 16:00:03 -
[1916] - Quote
I still can't believe that CCP is doing this. All the promises after the summer of rage, to never sell anyting for AUR that gives a direct advantage over other players, were emtpy talk. CCP makes the game less hardcore every year.
Also, what about all the talk about careful balancing and previsional planning of features .. Has CCP not thought about all the ways skill trading can be abused by rich players/alliances? They can now:
- easily switch doctrines
- instantly replace SP losses from T3s
- lure new players with injectors
- hoard injectors as "gold" item
- instantly use the newest overpowered toys/doctrines (i.e. Ishtar fleets before nerf)
- etc
I liked most of the changes CCP made in the last years but the skill trading feature ... WTF CCP. Could it be that there was a recent change in leadership? Some new producers or managers from EA maybe? Because skill trading looks like a typical EA cash grab. |
Sarina Aideron
Aideron Corp
14
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 16:02:32 -
[1917] - Quote
Driver wrote:Worse, they hired someone from EA. So my assumption was right? F*** this. CCP has opened Pandora's Box with skill trading. Prepare for gold ammo. |
Soltys
61
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 16:11:58 -
[1918] - Quote
Driver wrote:Soltys wrote:If that twitter pic is for real, then like someone else wrote earlier in this thread: Are you stupidly greedy or greedily stupid ? 1k aur for a single extractor ? Did you fall on your head in the morning ? Didn't the meaning behind the word "micro" register ? Did you hire some marketing "guru" from Gameforge or so ? That's not even mentioning non-aligining price with aur, which on its own is a primitive trick. Oh well. Worse, they hired someone from EA.
Oh the irony.
Well, from a supporter's perspective it's kind of sad to see this primitive pricing (both by scale and alignment) they decided for - and automatically explains why they waited up to the almost the last day with actual costs announcement.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
319
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 16:18:20 -
[1919] - Quote
The AUR price is ruinously low. The majority of SP extraction will be currently unneeded SP and it will be sold no matter how little profit is in it, making the injectors little more expensive than extractors long term. The bulk price of 800 AUR/extractor means that with the low margin on injectors, buying injectors is not only faster than buying multiple pilot training certificates, it's cheaper too. The long term effects of this on CCP's revenue and the health of the game will be disastrous, you need to double the AUR price. |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 16:21:14 -
[1920] - Quote
Sarina Aideron wrote:I still can't believe that CCP is doing this. All the promises after the summer of rage, to never sell anyting for AUR that gives a direct advantage over other players, were emtpy talk. CCP makes the game less hardcore every year. Also, what about all the talk about careful balancing and previsional planning of features .. Has CCP not thought about all the ways skill trading can be abused by rich players/alliances? They can now:
- easily switch doctrines
- instantly replace SP losses from T3s
- lure new players with injectors
- hoard injectors as "gold" item
- instantly use the newest overpowered toys/doctrines (i.e. Ishtar fleets before nerf)
- etc
I liked most of the changes CCP made in the last years but the skill trading feature ... WTF CCP. Could it be that there was a recent change in leadership? Some new producers or managers from EA maybe? Because skill trading looks like a typical EA cash grab.
extractor the only part that requires aurum does not give any one an advantage it removes sp derp the injectors are isk only on the open market.
even then no real advantage is gained since you still have to know what the hell your doing to utilize the sp in the first place as it has been said many times in this threads 90+ pages player skill/experience > skill points. it's like some one one buying a fake medical diploma isnt gonna make them a skilled surgeon... |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6938
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 17:01:31 -
[1921] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:The AUR price is ruinously low.
..
The long term effects of this on CCP's revenue and the health of the game will be disastrous, you need to double the AUR price. Well, this needs to be paid attention to
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3244
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 17:25:27 -
[1922] - Quote
Vile Swan wrote:CCP I'd like to say on behalf of the whole game. Thank you for F*****g garbage price you put on the extractors. It will only cost $100 to get a new toon to 15 million skillpoints bahahahahaha. LONG LIVE CCP.
I just hope that the whole rotten system becomes so expensive that absolutely no one uses it
This is not a signature.
|
Boe Harknes
The Scope Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 18:35:33 -
[1923] - Quote
Im still not sure what the difference between this or buying a character off the bazaar. Either way it is a way to convert real money to game power. Still doesnt change the fact that a crappy pilot is still a crappy pilot and wont last very long in game. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 18:46:56 -
[1924] - Quote
*slow clap*
Next time I think CCP is doing something right, I will just shut my face and leave the floor to the haters. Lesson learned. |
Tamara Jade
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 19:16:42 -
[1925] - Quote
OUCH, the cost of an Skill Extractor is about 300 mil ISK. I guess the injectors will be around the 700 mil ISK price. A bit expensive for gaining 10 days of training. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1898
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 19:46:39 -
[1926] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:The AUR price is ruinously low. The majority of SP extraction will be currently unneeded SP and it will be sold no matter how little profit is in it, making the injectors little more expensive than extractors long term. The bulk price of 800 AUR/extractor means that with the low margin on injectors, buying injectors is not only faster than buying multiple pilot training certificates, it's cheaper too. The long term effects of this on CCP's revenue and the health of the game will be disastrous, you need to double the AUR price. That's pretty presumptuous regarding the potential value of SP don't you think? The mandated price may taper demand some, but it's likely going to have some negative effect on supply compared to if it were more trivial as well. Also the initial rush of "waste" SP will meet the initial desire for SP that's been pent up here. I don't think these will have a marginal cost for a while. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 19:58:20 -
[1927] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:*slow clap*
Next time I think CCP is doing something right, I will just shut my face and leave the floor to the haters. Lesson learned.
Its not Haters mate, after 11 years you get to see when one of the CCP dudes decides to have one of these HUGE brain fart moments and they release information then stay totally silent on certain important details of said eureka moment. It becomes a please realize what your doing .... not !!!
Instead of just biting the bullet and selling them to everyone for a set fee you get this convoluted crap that now the price has been released a few days before it goes live all those poor sods who were hailing it as the second coming of EvE have realized they've been conned again.
Well played Rise, Maybe the masses would be better to remember next time - Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me |
Soltys
63
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 20:30:49 -
[1928] - Quote
Tamara Jade wrote:OUCH, the cost of an Skill Extractor is about 300 mil ISK. I guess the injectors will be around the 700 mil ISK price. A bit expensive for gaining 10 days of training.
It's like if they desperately wanted everyone to not use this feature.
If we mapped this cost directly to the character bazaar - 2 plexes is 7 (seven) extractors = 3.5m sp. Then the transfer fee for a 35m sp character would be 20 (twenty) plexes. Assuming they wouldn't try to emulate diminishing returns somehow.
How many people would be using character bazaar then ?
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Tamara Jade
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 20:36:21 -
[1929] - Quote
Soltys wrote:Tamara Jade wrote:OUCH, the cost of an Skill Extractor is about 300 mil ISK. I guess the injectors will be around the 700 mil ISK price. A bit expensive for gaining 10 days of training. It's like if they desperately wanted everyone to not use this feature. If we mapped this cost directly to the character bazaar - 2 plexes is 7 (seven) extractors = 3.5m sp. Then the transfer fee for a 35m sp character would be 20 (twenty) plexes. Assuming they wouldn't try to emulate diminishing returns somehow. How many people would be using character bazaar then ? How is this sp trading thing supposed to be better / more flexible / whatever alternative to bazaar ?
Basically what they are saying is PLEX is going up to 1.5 bil soon and toons sold on the Bazaar should go up in price as well. The Bazaar is way underpriced. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 21:54:42 -
[1930] - Quote
Now this turd is going live, remember what it said at the bottom of the original blog.
Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now
Why let folks give whole toons away for a measly 2 plex when we can ream them dry on 500k packets |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2054
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 22:21:23 -
[1931] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Now this turd is going live, remember what it said at the bottom of the original blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for nowWhy let folks give whole toons away for a measly 2 plex when we can ream them dry on 500k packets
They say you can't polish a turd but you really can...of course, that means you just end up with a shiny turd.... |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 23:05:38 -
[1932] - Quote
So is it 4.3 extractors per PLEX?
And I think the number was 223 Injectors to get from 0 SP to 80 m SP.
So 52 PLEX for the extractors, plus whatever the SP themselves cost.
And I guess SP is about 2 mil per month for a farm, so maximum price would be 1/4 PLEX to convert an extractor to an injector, so for 223 injectors we're looking at 56 PLEX for the SP. ... But that is an absolute max price.
So 108 PLEX buys you an 80 m SP character with a name chosen by you, and no corp history. A pay 2 win player buys PLEX for $17.50 each, unless they wait for a PLEX sale.
So if you are Pay2Win you're looking at paying $1,890.00.
So... if Warren Buffet decides to start playing Eve after this goes into effect, he's going to get quite a head start! |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
416
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 23:17:49 -
[1933] - Quote
Tamara Jade wrote:OUCH, the cost of an Skill Extractor is about 300 mil ISK. I guess the injectors will be around the 700 mil ISK price. A bit expensive for gaining 10 days of training. They'll be around 500 - 600mil assuming PLEX at 1.2B.
Roughly 275mil for an extractor, and around 300mil for the 500k SP.
My guess is they will stabilise between 500mil to 600mil.
Certainly if they go anything over 600mil then farmers will be jumping in.
A PLEX should buy a newbie 1M SP (for this they will have to use CC but then that was always obvious to anyone with common sense).
I'd say CCP has got the price about right, too low and it is easily abusable by the big alliances, and too high and it is prohibitive for the masses.
I still think this skill trading proposal is a stupid idea and detrimental to the game and is not at all very eve-like, but pricing at 800aur to 1000aur was the only option that CCP could realistically go with.
When they said it was going to be equivalent to the cost of using the bazaar I must admit I took it with a pinch of salt, this is priced way over cost of doing business in the bazaar.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
222
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 23:34:43 -
[1934] - Quote
Still well enough affordable for T3 pilots to keep an injector or two with their med clones.
Still would have liked an isk sink somewhere in this plan. Oh well, back to business...
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
447
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 00:02:38 -
[1935] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Tamara Jade wrote:OUCH, the cost of an Skill Extractor is about 300 mil ISK. I guess the injectors will be around the 700 mil ISK price. A bit expensive for gaining 10 days of training. They'll be around 500 - 600mil assuming PLEX at 1.2B. Roughly 275mil for an extractor, and around 300mil for the 500k SP. My guess is they will stabilise between 500mil to 600mil. Certainly if they go anything over 600mil then farmers will be jumping in. A PLEX should buy a newbie 1M SP (for this they will have to use CC but then that was always obvious to anyone with common sense). I'd say CCP has got the price about right, too low and it is easily abusable by the big alliances, and too high and it is prohibitive for the masses. I still think this skill trading proposal is a stupid idea and detrimental to the game and is not at all very eve-like, but pricing at 800aur to 1000aur was the only option that CCP could realistically go with. When they said it was going to be equivalent to the cost of using the bazaar I must admit I took it with a pinch of salt, this is priced way over cost of doing business in the bazaar. Well this is one of the things I was hoping for if they insisted with this SP trading garbage and that was to raise the prices soo high that the scrubs would have to work overtime (and maybe sell some of their personal belongings on Ebay) to pay for them, LOL.
I condone this decision by CCP because at the very least, it'll reduce the cancerous effects that SP trading will have on Eve and prolonged its lifespan.
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2168
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 00:05:48 -
[1936] - Quote
Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job!
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Dracnys
86
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 00:13:06 -
[1937] - Quote
The high aurum price and decreasing yield for high SP characters means that the character bazaar will be much cheaper than buying injectors. People who want to buy a lot of SP will continue to buy a character.
So this limits the SP injectors to people who just need a little SP to do get into a new ship, use a module or whatever. This is not very impactful to the overall balance of the game. So actually the high price makes me less worried about the consequences of SP trading, because it's so inefficient. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 00:58:32 -
[1938] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job!
The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting.
But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage.
If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week.
Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something. |
Memphis Baas
1057
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 00:58:53 -
[1939] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Still well enough affordable for T3 pilots to keep an injector or two with their med clones.
It's priced perfectly, from a business cash grab (let's use the forum vernacular) point of view: just under the "screw this crap" affordability point.
They missed the mark with the SKINs; hopefully they'll compare the sales numbers from this vs. from SKINs and adjust the SKINs (downward, and a lot). Clothing / outfits, too.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6939
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 05:31:46 -
[1940] - Quote
This is hilarious, yep.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 07:46:27 -
[1941] - Quote
Can someone (preferably who tested it on test server) clarify one thing: Assume I have 79KK trained SP. I consume 3 injectors, which gives me about 1kk free SP (300k per item). I don't allocate free SP, still having 79kk SP trained and about 1kk free.
So, the question is very simple - how much would I get from the 4th injector? 300 (as I have 79kk SP trained) or 150 (as I have 79+1 total SP)? |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
85
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 10:58:04 -
[1942] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Now this turd is going live, remember what it said at the bottom of the original blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for nowWhy let folks give whole toons away for a measly 2 plex when we can ream them dry on 500k packets They say you can't polish a turd but you really can...of course, that means you just end up with a shiny turd....
No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2055
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 11:09:46 -
[1943] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Now this turd is going live, remember what it said at the bottom of the original blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for nowWhy let folks give whole toons away for a measly 2 plex when we can ream them dry on 500k packets They say you can't polish a turd but you really can...of course, that means you just end up with a shiny turd.... No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter .
The y could name the next developer to join CCP Truffle....and just not tell them why :D |
Josef Djugashvilis
3252
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 12:07:19 -
[1944] - Quote
There seems to be a trend by some of those who say that cash for skills is more or less the same thing as the Character Bazaar.
Let me clear that up for you.
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose.
Cash for skills has been introduced by CCP, allegedly to help new players, (yeah right,) given that the new player would have to effectively pay more real life cash to avail themselves of this feature.
In reality, two groups will benefit by the introduction of cash for skills, CCP (primary purpose) and in-game wealthy veterans.
A money grab is a money grab - no amount of pretending that it is for the new players can cover this up.
This is not a signature.
|
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 13:20:18 -
[1945] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter .
actually you can mythbusters proved turds can be polished much like this pile of crap system :P |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2055
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 14:52:12 -
[1946] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter . actually you can mythbusters proved turds can be polished much like this pile of crap system :P
So mythbusters proved me right, you just end up with a shiny turd :D |
Memphis Baas
1069
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 14:59:51 -
[1947] - Quote
BearStrikesBack wrote:Can someone (preferably who tested it on test server) clarify one thing: Assume I have 79KK trained SP. I consume 3 injectors, which gives me about 1kk free SP (300k per item). I don't allocate free SP, still having 79kk SP trained and about 1kk free.
So, the question is very simple - how much would I get from the 4th injector? 300 (as I have 79kk SP trained) or 150 (as I have 79+1 total SP)?
First, please use mil or mio instead of kk, because a thousand thousands is a million.
Second, currently, on the test server, unallocated points don't count towards the limit (80 million), but a CCP dev has said they are fixing that by Tuesday as it's not intended.
If you have 79.000 million and add 3 injectors of 300k each, that's 79.900 million, so you're still under the limit for the fourth. Now, it would make sense that the fourth injector checks what you HAVE and gives you 300k because you're under the limit, but I don't know what CCP is actually doing.
It's only a 2 day wait, just wait for it, and then ask again, give people a chance to see what CCP actually implements on the live servers. It's not set in stone until then. |
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass
87
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 15:34:29 -
[1948] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Shova'k wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter . actually you can mythbusters proved turds can be polished much like this pile of crap system :P So mythbusters proved me right, you just end up with a shiny turd :D
I stand corrected. You can polish a Turd:
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/polishing-a-turd-minimyth/ |
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 15:40:41 -
[1949] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:BearStrikesBack wrote:Can someone (preferably who tested it on test server) clarify one thing: Assume I have 79KK trained SP. I consume 3 injectors, which gives me about 1kk free SP (300k per item). I don't allocate free SP, still having 79kk SP trained and about 1kk free.
So, the question is very simple - how much would I get from the 4th injector? 300 (as I have 79kk SP trained) or 150 (as I have 79+1 total SP)? First, please use mil or mio instead of kk, because a thousand thousands is a million. Second, currently, on the test server, unallocated points don't count towards the limit (80 million), but a CCP dev has said they are fixing that by Tuesday as it's not intended. If you have 79.000 million and add 3 injectors of 300k each, that's 79.900 million, so you're still under the limit for the fourth. Now, it would make sense that the fourth injector checks what you HAVE and gives you 300k because you're under the limit, but I don't know what CCP is actually doing. It's only a 2 day wait, just wait for it, and then ask again, give people a chance to see what CCP actually implements on the live servers. It's not set in stone until then.
Unallocated SP curently counts on the test server. Tested today. If you have 79 trained and 1 unallocated, it is counts as 80 total, leaving you with only 150k per injector.
The only SP range where AUR-bought SPs can compete (by price) with character bazaar is 0-5m SP character range. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
72
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 20:52:41 -
[1950] - Quote
So you get 3 extractors for a converted PLEX with about 500 left over
That's ok you can always convert the leftovers into to a 500 Aurum Token and sell it on the Market |
|
Annia Aurel
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 21:20:19 -
[1951] - Quote
Iowa Banshee wrote:So you get 3 extractors for a converted PLEX with about 500 left over
That's ok you can always convert the leftovers into to a 500 Aurum Token and sell it on the Market
No, you can't. |
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
72
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 21:37:02 -
[1952] - Quote
Annia Aurel wrote:Iowa Banshee wrote:So you get 3 extractors for a converted PLEX with about 500 left over
That's ok you can always convert the leftovers into to a 500 Aurum Token and sell it on the Market No, you can't.
Your right, you can't - but you can round up your 3500 to 4000 --> buy some of the 500 Aurum tokens I've been buying since last April -Goldmine |
Soltys
64
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 23:22:46 -
[1953] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Still well enough affordable for T3 pilots to keep an injector or two with their med clones. It's priced perfectly, from a business cash grab (let's use the forum vernacular) point of view: just under the "screw this crap" affordability point. They missed the mark with the SKINs; hopefully they'll compare the sales numbers from this vs. from SKINs and adjust the SKINs (downward, and a lot). Clothing / outfits, too.
Well, the concept of "less is more" seems to be uncomprehensible to CCP at this point. Gate prices rarely work well. 3.5 extractors per 1 plex (or 0.9 per 5$ for those prefering direct cash approach) is exactly that, and it's positioned at the extreme end of desperation (of both players' and CCP's). It's not even enough to extract what 1 character can farm in 1 plex of subscription time.
Thank goodness the person that "designed" this pricing wasn't responsible for bazaar (or if that's not the case, said person had more sanity back then). Otherwise 20 plexes transfer fee for 35m sp character would be the standard today (mapping this pricing directly onto bazaar).
Perhaps they should hire some people from Steam/GoG instead of EA.
Jita Flipping Inc.: Solmp / Kovl
|
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
23
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 00:29:37 -
[1954] - Quote
If they charged less, it would unbalance the game more. That's why WoW is no fun to play. There is no point if you don't want to pay for the upgrades.
Under this new system, if I wanted to pay2win my way to enough extractors to make a real difference, I'd need to go find myself a better job.
And if this game somehow gives me the motivation to go find a better job, I'm not sure whether I should resent CCP...... or thank them? |
Nuclear Nut Zack
CK-0FF Bad Intention
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 00:44:52 -
[1955] - Quote
I really hope CCP notices all the outrage about the pricing and fixes it before release or there will be trouble down the road. These prices hurt everyone. They hurt buyers who have to foot the bill, sellers who won't be able to get a decent price for their SP due to lack of demand, CCP who won't sell nearly as many extractors, and the people who say the mechanic shouldn't exist because it still will. If these prices don't change I predict an initial surge of people trying to sell useless SP and others buying it. But it won't take long for the buyers to run low and force the price down till the SP itself is only valued at 15-25% of what it cost to train. That will screw over the sellers, which will obviously make them unhappy, while still keeping the total price far above what the SP costs to train, significantly limiting buyers and making them unhappy too. Even worse, once the extractors have been launched with a certain price it can't really be lowered without offending everyone who bought any up to that point.
I propose changing the pricing to 120 individually, 450 for 4, 900 for 9, and 3500 for 35 or 36. That would eliminate most of the rage over the price as well as the rage over the "hotdog bun" mismatch. It would allow buyers to pay a reasonable price for injectors while sellers get a reasonable value for their SP and CCP get more revenue after the initial surge because people would actually continue to use the feature. It would also help keep players happy because they won't be seeing a 50-75% tax every time they look at injector prices. The only losers in that situation are the people who don't want the feature to exist.
TL;DR: CCP please reconsider the pricing and change it to about 100 per extractor in packages that align with Aurum packages. And please do it before launch lest people get screwed over and hate you. |
OldWolf69
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
214
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 03:21:58 -
[1956] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:There seems to be a trend by some of those who say that cash for skills is more or less the same thing as the Character Bazaar.
Let me clear that up for you.
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose.
Cash for skills has been introduced by CCP, allegedly to help new players, (yeah right,) given that the new player would have to effectively pay more real life cash to avail themselves of this feature.
In reality, two groups will benefit by the introduction of cash for skills, CCP (primary purpose) and in-game wealthy veterans.
A money grab is a money grab - no amount of pretending that it is for the new players can cover this up. Thing is, this change is trully pointed a new players only. This is a bad trade for older dudes, also noone except nubs would go into spending RL cash for this game particullary atm. But clearly as hell noone will spend for this a second time. or at least not so many to make a difference for realz. Like i said many times before: the Aurum project belongs to a such high ranked guy that they *must* implement it and make it succesfull. Or at least pretend it was a succes. Else some will learn really quick that they can get a job at McDonalds in case **** hits the fan.
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
223
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 03:53:37 -
[1957] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote: Else some will learn really quick that they can get a job at McDonalds in case **** hits the fan.
Iceland doesn't have McDonalds anymore... |
OldWolf69
Applied Anarchy ChaosTheory.
214
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 04:05:18 -
[1958] - Quote
Now this is sad. But i'm shure they will find something. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1902
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 04:30:39 -
[1959] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose... 2 things: 1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient. 2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6941
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 04:44:44 -
[1960] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose... 2 things: 1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient. 2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle? Nothing like selective outrage.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
|
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
626
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 08:32:41 -
[1961] - Quote
With the given cost for extractors, it looks like the cost of injectors will figure to be around 0.55 PLEX cost, on market.
At that price point, I rather doubt that this new feature is going to benefit noobs, who are probably going to be unlikely/unable to pay for them with either RL cash or in-game ISK. So, I do not expect that this new feature will result in any significant boost in new player attraction nor retention - ie. no new subs.
However, I do expect that a significant number of older players, esp. the space-rich with PLEX stockpiles and with a bunch of old alts with mis-distributed SP, will use their PLEX to buy extractors, create injectors, and move around SP.
The funny thing is that, even if no new PLEX are purchased for RL cash, the increased use of the PLEX from existing stockpiles *will* improve CCP's revenue, at least on paper, since CCP apparently does not record purshased PLEX as revenue, until *after* the PLEX has actually been consumed in game.
So, this new feature may be nothing more than a creative accounting trick, in order to realize more revenue, on the income statement, by getting players to use up more of the already existing in-game PLEX.
LOL |
BearStrikesBack
Sequent Industry Out of Sight.
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 09:32:51 -
[1962] - Quote
The funniest thing is that the more money you want to invest in game (assuming buying SPs), the less you get. It is almost indifferent for you whether to use this new supa-dupa feature or go straight to the character bazaar for low-SP characters. For high-SP characters you must be really insane not to use character bazaar.
This whole system doesn't stimulate gamers to invest their money ingame. Well played marketing department.
P.S. I was planning to do some stuff with this feature with one of my alts. When I did calculations, I noticed that I would save like 50% of budget by selling char and buying a new one. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 10:00:13 -
[1963] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose... 2 things: 1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient. 2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?
I'm not a hater of the bazaar, I find it serve's a unique purpose within the game and its been there for almost as long as the game itself. I suppose if your in game rich enough to transfer characters with plex its an easier method but i'd rather pay -ú17 to transfer a character than the 2 plex method which is equivalent to -ú30 to -ú34.
The gripe with a lot over this is simple one.
The Nexx store will not ever sell anything that will give anyone an in game advantage with the use of monies over time - Yet another lie.
No product can be purchased from the nexx store with aurum that has a like for like value - Its a con. It's like going to buy a computer finding one for -ú1000 then being told at the checkout its actually -ú1150 but we'll give you a credit note for -ú150 you can spend at a later date.
The players who have supported this game from the beginning are the ones who are getting shafted.
If they wanted a money grab like i said before they should of just just sold skill point packages to anyone who needed / wanted them without interfering with anything in game, also as Moac Tor suggested some form of skill realigning packages. As a vet i have no need for isk but thats all i can get out of this because the penalty clause within the injectors.
The game is already overwhelming to many new players, now its becomes even more convoluted with this mechanic over simply visiting a page to purchase an upgrade. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2184
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 10:44:40 -
[1964] - Quote
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job! The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting. But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage. If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week. Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something. I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles.
So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2058
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 11:01:49 -
[1965] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job! The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting. But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage. If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week. Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something. I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles. So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players.
Ye Gods, I'm agreeing with a CODE member...it feels so wrong...yet it feels so right... |
Josef Djugashvilis
3266
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 12:17:02 -
[1966] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose... 2 things: 1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient. 2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?
I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.
I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.
The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!
For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?
This is not a signature.
|
Nuclear Nut Zack
CK-0FF Bad Intention
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 12:47:54 -
[1967] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.
I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.
The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!
For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?
On the other hand, if PLEX and the Character Bazaar didn't exist, how many new players would look at subscription prices or training times, think 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun? I know I would have. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2060
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 13:06:57 -
[1968] - Quote
Nuclear Nut Zack wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.
I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.
The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!
For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?
On the other hand, if PLEX and the Character Bazaar didn't exist, how many new players would look at subscription prices or training times, think 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun? I know I would have.
On the other other hand (hmmm, too much time in the nuclear physics lab maybe...) /i didn't know that either PLEX or the character bazaar existed but liked the game for what it was and /i stayed.
I still think it is the NPE that's the problem, not the skill system. |
Memphis Baas
1079
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 13:28:26 -
[1969] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?
Repeating an idea posted earlier in the thread: after the feature is released, CCP should set up a donation bin, so that they can verify true newbies from alts, and distribute some skill injectors. I'm sure we'll donate, especially if enticed with special edition t-shirts or ship skins as rewards or prizes.
Otherwise, the newbies who make it into player corps or alliances will get some of these injectors as a bonus for joining, based on how generous the corp / alliance is. But making newbies feel welcome is already something that we do, via the free ship / skills programs and tutorials / mentoring.
The donation bin would just cover the newbies who don't get into a player corp right away.
|
Ein Herje
Disturbing-Behavior
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 13:57:48 -
[1970] - Quote
As long as you keep your character under 5 mill sp guys you will be fine, just strip all your characters down to below 5 mill sp, then take all the injectors from all your chars and inject them into your favourite char, then delete everyone else and you'r good to go these restrictions on the injectors don't mean ****, It would be better if they could hardcap it at 40-60 mill sp say ...
All I know is one thing, 5 characters will become one, discontinuing the 4 other subs as soon as I have sucked the skills out of them. |
|
Nuclear Nut Zack
CK-0FF Bad Intention
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 14:15:46 -
[1971] - Quote
Ein Herje wrote:As long as you keep your character under 5 mill sp guys you will be fine, just strip all your characters down to below 5 mill sp Extractors can't take a character below 5 mil. You need to have 5.5 mil to use one. |
Bill Maverick
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 14:18:08 -
[1972] - Quote
- CCP Cash Grab - absolutely, however as the creators, developers and maintainers, they have every right to do so. The employees need to be paid, and the equipment needs top be maintained With inflation comes wage increases, with expansion comes new equipment, with breakdowns comes new parts etc, etc. none of which pays for itself. If CCP didn't come up with new cash grab ideas, perhaps the price of subscriptions or PLEX would increase instead, which way would you prefer?? I know I would rather see these smaller ideas implemented rather than my subscription increase, but that's my opinion.
- Rich players prosper- I do believe IMO that the wealthy in game will benefit from this more than the intended newbies. Not quite sure how it was intended is how it will work out to be honest, we shall see in the next couple of months I guess. I reckon there maybe a few overhauls of the system before it settles, only time will tell.
Bottom line though is this -
There will always be the for and against, the believers and the haters, we are all entitled to our own opinions but:
- Don't like the price - don't pay for it
- Don't like the idea - don't use it
It will more than likely be used as a useless skill remover to put elsewhere relevant, rather than wiping old characters to build new ones, or to build one from scratch, or a newbie build himself up to a super pilot lol, that would be just a waste of money, when you can just go to bizarre and buy one for a fraction of the cost. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
87
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 16:00:21 -
[1973] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:galtest12345 wrote:People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?
This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.
I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably. Ya this works in a free to play game not subscription based model. This is point blank a money grab from CCP no if's, an's, or but's. There isn't a right, wrong, left, or right, it's very clear cut. CCP is being greedy and lied to us period.
There is a Very old saying dates back to long time ago
Money For Old Rope
CCP Should change there name
What Is the Origin of the Saying "To Make Money from Old Rope"? To make money from old rope means to make money by selling something that has been used and ought to be worthless. This extends to profiting from knowledge or using skills that were learnt for another purpose. This term has a nautical history. In the days of sailing ships, sailors would cut damaged rope into smaller undamaged lengths and sell it when ashore. At sea, long ropes are required, but on land, shorter lengths were still useful and could be sold. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2063
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 16:06:42 -
[1974] - Quote
Suede wrote:...
Money For Old Rope
CCP Should change there name
...
'Bite size Brains' has a nice ring to it... |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 16:41:47 -
[1975] - Quote
The balance price for 500k SP is 1/4 of a PLEX (because one can generate about 2M SP per month, and sub for a PLEX).
The extractor price is 1000/3500 = 2/7 of a PLEX (because one can exchange a PLEX for 3500 AUR, and an extractor is 1000 AUR - well, 999 AUR, but that's just CCP's lovely way of telling nerds that they are a numerically challenged...).
The overhead is hence (2/7) / (1/4) = 8/7 or 114.3%. CCP is more than doubling the price of skill injectors for you.
If you like to consider this as fraction of the total: (2/7) / (1/4 + 2/7) = 15/28 = 53.4% of the total price is CCP's take.
Another way of looking at this is to compare two use cases:
1) Have a main and an alt subscribed, for independent usage: 2 PLEX sub per month.
2) Have a main and alt subscribed, where the alt supplies its SP to the main to double its training speed: 2 PLEX sub per month + 4 * 2/7 = 8/7 PLEX for extractors per month = 22/7 PLEX per month.
Do you see a good reason why 2) should be more expensive than 1)? I don't, really... But CCP does:
(22/7) / 2 = 11/7 = 157. 1%
So a new player using multiple subscriptions in the attempt to make just one character "catch up" (for an in-game advantage, or simply to access more game content) pays 57.1% premium as compared to a veteran switching between alts / multi-boxing for an in-game advantage. Of course, the (ISK) rich may shrug at the premium and multi-train this way anyway. It is the poorer players (in real life or in-game) for whom this is a major disincentive.
Compare all this to my suggestion of 100 AUR. That would have been a 11.4% overhead (10.2% of total price), with a 5.7% premium for speed training in the use case. That would have made some kind of sense, being in the same ballpark as station tax... |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9817
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 17:06:26 -
[1976] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: 1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
In the same vein, PLEX was introduced to give CCP control over the illegal RMT trade. But it's still RMT.
No one seems to have a problem with that, so why should they have a problem with any of the other things that - instead of being fixed- are just being moved under CCP control?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
47
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 19:17:36 -
[1977] - Quote
DEAR CCP,
I want to know - is there a person employed with the specific job of putting people off buying these things?
RANT :: 999 each......not 900.....but 999..... FFS... $5 Aurum packet has 900 aurum.... Can I get an extractor for that ... HELL NO
AND RANT MORE :: if I buy the $10 packet it has F**K***G 1950 AURUM... I get ONE F**K**G extractor with 951 left over WHAT THE F**K CAN I BUY WITH 951 Aurum
Its like shopping at F***%$#g wallmart - 12 hotdog buns and 8 Franks please.
I would have bought a $5 Aurum package just to try one out but it's far to difficult to get one
I have a suggestion to gouge more:- Lets change the transfer fee at the Bazaar from 2 PLEX to AURUM bought transfer tokens We could buy I transfer token for say .... 4036 AURUM |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1903
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 19:21:21 -
[1978] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:I'm not a hater of the bazaar, I find it serve's a unique purpose within the game and its been there for almost as long as the game itself. I suppose if your in game rich enough to transfer characters with plex its an easier method but i'd rather pay -ú17 to transfer a character than the 2 plex method which is equivalent to -ú30 to -ú34. Others would rather avoid spending their money altogether and go the PLEX route, trying to bake as much if that isk cost into the character price. The point here being that the bazaar has never been a charitable venture: CCP allows character purchases, which means more trades, which means more trade fees.
Berrice Silf wrote:The gripe with a lot over this is simple one.
The Nexx store will not ever sell anything that will give anyone an in game advantage with the use of monies over time - Yet another lie. The issue being missed again is this: When was that proven a lie? When this was proposed? Or years before it was uttered? If this is wrong so are the things that came before, and everyone who bought that line did anything but consider there was a different meaning behind that than the one they wanted.
Basically what CCP never committed to not do, and was instead doing the whole time, was allowing players to buy each other's advantages while they take a cut.
Berrice Silf wrote:No product can be purchased from the nexx store with aurum that has a like for like value - Its a con. It's like going to buy a computer finding one for -ú1000 then being told at the checkout its actually -ú1150 but we'll give you a credit note for -ú150 you can spend at a later date.
E.G. In wow if i want to transfer a toon its -ú17, If i want a pet or vanity item its -ú6 to -ú9 NOT its -ú22 and we'll stick you -ú4 in your battlenet account for a later date. No, that's not a con. you're buying vouchers for services from CCP, and you're getting vouchers for services from CCP. Further, CCP is honoring those vouchers. No "con" has occurred. Yes, there is a less than consumer friendly practice at play, but the numbers are there for everyone to see and judge whether they want to give their patronage. Nothing in the NEX is a mandatory feature. If you hate having leftover AUR, buy what you want on the market, or better, if you're really that principled regarding the prior idea of selling advantages and believe that's what this, PLEX or the bazaar are, simple don't contribute to them.
Berrice Silf wrote:The players who have supported this game from the beginning are the ones who are getting shafted.
If they wanted a money grab like i said before they should of just just sold skill point packages to anyone who needed / wanted them without interfering with anything in game, also as Moac Tor suggested some form of skill realigning packages. As a vet i have no need for isk but thats all i can get out of this because the penalty clause within the injectors.
The game is already overwhelming to many new players, now its becomes even more convoluted with this mechanic over simply visiting a page to purchase an upgrade. They of course didn't do that because that would have crossed a line from allowing players to sell their accumulated advantages to each other to actually selling the advantages themselves. As stated above, the former is something they never said they wouldn't do where as the latter wasn't. Fact is the "victory" that occurred ending the summer of rage forbids this solution from coming into being. That's the reality of the promise that was made.
The funny thing though to me is this. People keep claiming the mechanic convolutes things for new players. It really doesn't. Go to the market, buy the item, use it. The rest to them is a mechanic we never decided was too hard for them to use, PLEX and isk earning. If the contention is that they're not going to play because there is an extraction mechanic they can't even use, what other mechanics that they don't understand right away need to be axed to make the game more accessible? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1903
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 19:27:02 -
[1979] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose... 2 things: 1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient. 2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle? I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now. I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc. The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah! For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun? Whether you like it or not isn't really the issue. What is the issue is the reality those features have created. They've been generally accepted and in the case of PLEX at least, widely patronized by players at different levels. For every aspect of new player perception about what money can do in the game, how much already exists as a result of PLEX alone?
And yes, there was another way, to simply outright ban it. But they didn't. And now we are where we are, a game with rampant RMT and character trades without EULA violation because CCP is the other party on the monetary transactions. |
Memphis Baas
1081
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 19:54:09 -
[1980] - Quote
Hamish McRothimay wrote:DEAR CCP, RANT :: 999 each......not 900.....but 999..... FFS... $5 Aurum packet has 900 aurum.... Can I get an extractor for that ... HELL NO
if I buy the $10 packet it has F**K***G 1950 AURUM... I get ONE F**K**G extractor with 951 left over WHAT THE F**K CAN I BUY WITH 951 Aurum
Its like shopping at F***%$#g wallmart - 12 hotdog buns and 8 Franks please.
A sensible change would be:
$5 = 1000 aur $10 = 2050 aur $20 = 4100 aur etc.
And change the extractors to 1000 aur.
Why should they do this? Because they'll save a whole lot of headache and negative publicity by having round numbers and not employing sleazy sales techniques. Because the 999 aur trick is not necessary with things as desirable as skill extractors.
|
|
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
47
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 19:58:03 -
[1981] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Hamish McRothimay wrote:DEAR CCP, RANT :: 999 each......not 900.....but 999..... FFS... $5 Aurum packet has 900 aurum.... Can I get an extractor for that ... HELL NO
if I buy the $10 packet it has F**K***G 1950 AURUM... I get ONE F**K**G extractor with 951 left over WHAT THE F**K CAN I BUY WITH 951 Aurum
Its like shopping at F***%$#g wallmart - 12 hotdog buns and 8 Franks please.
A sensible change would be: $5 = 1000 aur $10 = 2050 aur $20 = 4100 aur etc. And change the extractors to 1000 aur. Why should they do this? Because they'll save a whole lot of headache and negative publicity by having round numbers and not employing sleazy sales techniques. Because the 999 aur trick is not necessary with things as desirable as skill extractors. Hey already changed it 1000 Aurum & the Aurum packs have bonus 100 for this months |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
629
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 20:06:15 -
[1982] - Quote
Well, on the plus side, since the price of extractors has been announced, there now isn't much reason for anyone to rage and unsub.
Since the price of injectors makes them a suboptimal choice, in terms of SP per ISK or per PLEX, most players should just continue doing things the old way - ie. train your main with the queue, use the toon bazaar to buy already-trained toons, and use MCT to create new alts from scratch. Even for the big alliances, this will still make the most sense, esp. over the long haul.
I expect that we'll see some initial use of extractors by players who still have free Aurum lying around, to move or sell SP which is currently wasted in unused skills (or skills which got nerfed by CCP) on mains and alts, but that should be over and done fairly quickly. And, some space-rich folks will probably buy and use injectors, even at 150K SP per injector, since they have nothing else on which to spend their billions and trillions of ISK. And, maybe a very, very few players who have RL cash buring holes in their pockets, and nothing better on which to spend their money, may be silly enough to use the injectors to attempt to "catch up" to older players.
Beyond that limited use, though, I now think that players can relax and simply choose to ignore the whole thing. I don't think we are going to see much P2W activity here. |
Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
5
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 20:30:48 -
[1983] - Quote
FYI the 6x and 12x packs of PLEX don't make financial sense in GBP, it's cheaper to buy multiples of 2x
As a consequence, the "you save x" is basically a lie. |
Memphis Baas
1082
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 01:07:27 -
[1984] - Quote
You save X compared to the single, and advertising like that is common everywhere, even on TP rolls, where you always save more or get twice the sheets or whatever.
For US currency, buying 3 x 2-pack PLEX costs exactly the same as buying a 6-pack, and all the large packs are exact multiples of the 2-pack. You just click less, and your bank / cc / financial institution doesn't trigger a security lockdown for "too many purchases per second."
Do you guys get taxed more for costly items than for cheap items? Extra tax / VAT would explain what you're seeing. |
Tamara Jade
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 02:21:50 -
[1985] - Quote
I can already see this happening, noob starts game and subs account. Buys some PLEX to purchase a few injectors from the market. This will make the noob feel invincible and go do stupid stuff (which is fine with me, easy kills), or they try running a harder mission now that they think they can fly a battleship properly. They will fail, lose a ton of isk, get frustrated with EVE, and quit. It might attract new players, with the idea of catching up, but there is no way they can catch up in game-time experience or learning game mechanics. Unless they are with a good corp that can show them the ropes. Just because you can sit in a ship, doesn't mean you know how to fly or fit it.
By no means is this pay to win. It's just pay to have SP.
My opinion on the SP trading is, it's a short term solution to a long term problem. I see these being a hot item in the very beginning, but they will fade. The rich will control the market on them after a few months when the volume slows down. By mid summer PLEX will be close to 2 bil. |
Zozoll Neblyn
Ziggurat Forge
24
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 02:57:01 -
[1986] - Quote
Nuclear Nut Zack wrote:I really hope CCP notices all the outrage about the pricing and fixes it before release or there will be trouble down the road. These prices hurt everyone. They hurt buyers who have to foot the bill, sellers who won't be able to get a decent price for their SP due to lack of demand, CCP who won't sell nearly as many extractors, and the people who say the mechanic shouldn't exist because it still will. If these prices don't change I predict an initial surge of people trying to sell useless SP and others buying it. But it won't take long for the buyers to run low and force the price down till the SP itself is only valued at 15-25% of what it cost to train. That will screw over the sellers, which will obviously make them unhappy, while still keeping the total price far above what the SP costs to train, significantly limiting buyers and making them unhappy too. Even worse, once the extractors have been launched with a certain price it can't really be lowered without offending everyone who bought any up to that point.
I propose changing the pricing to 120 individually, 450 for 4, 900 for 9, and 3500 for 35 or 36. That would eliminate most of the rage over the price as well as the rage over the "hotdog bun" mismatch. It would allow buyers to pay a reasonable price for injectors while sellers get a reasonable value for their SP and CCP get more revenue after the initial surge because people would actually continue to use the feature. It would also help keep players happy because they won't be seeing a 50-75% tax every time they look at injector prices. The only losers in that situation are the people who don't want the feature to exist.
TL;DR: CCP please reconsider the pricing and change it to about 100 per extractor in packages that align with Aurum packages. And please do it before launch lest people get screwed over and hate you.
The price is just great for a noob who wants to fly a mining barge the same week he/she starts. Most of the carebear professions only require a few injectors to get into.
When I started, the idea that I'd have to wait a whole week in order to get "manufacturing efficiency" to V seemed outrageous, because I knew I had no hope of manufacturing at a profit without it, and the game was still new and exciting enough that I didn't know what to do with myself while I waited.
Now, 20 m SP later (or actually I haven't looked in a while, it might be 30 m). I don't mind waiting months for a new skill.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job! The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting. But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage. If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week. Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something. I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles. So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players. Ye Gods, I'm agreeing with a CODE member...it feels so wrong...yet it feels so right...
I've tried Pay2Win in the past. I found that, in most cases, it wasn't Pay2win. It was Pay-or-else-be-absolutely-guaranteed-to-lose. If you payed, you might still lose.
Having an insanely high price prevents that. You can refuse to pay and still win. That's really the important thing.
|
Never Enough
NPC corps suck
10
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 03:41:35 -
[1987] - Quote
Do I need to cancel and re-subscribe to get my "Free Skill Extractors with Subscription Offers", as mentioned here: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/skill-trading-launch-offers-on-aur-subscriptions-and-plex/ ? |
Aphatasis
Evoke. Ev0ke
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 06:37:38 -
[1988] - Quote
My subscription renewed automatical on 2016-02-05 for 3 month. Please don't tell me "bad luck"... If i change all my subscriptions to a 1 year cycle and 3d later change back to 3 month ?
Plz more detailed infos about that "Free Extractors for Subscription"-thingy!! |
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen
7
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 07:00:43 -
[1989] - Quote
So any guesses what the market price for injectors will be ?
An extractor is 800 AUR minimum, about 300 mil ISK + the time you need for training the skillpoints.
My guess would be at least 500 mil per injector, but I am sure they will be more expensive |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 08:18:44 -
[1990] - Quote
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:So any guesses what the market price for injectors will be ?
An extractor is 800 AUR minimum, about 300 mil ISK + the time you need for training the skillpoints.
My guess would be at least 500 mil per injector, but I am sure they will be more expensive
I don't think you will get a marginal price for them yet, need to wait out the surge to see where it will settle but keeping in mind the purpose of them i suppose anywhere between 550 to 650 anymore and the people that theyre intended for will be priced out or have deep pockets.
I will give them a thumbs up for breaking the bonds with them being entirely tied to the plex and aurum and you can just purchase the extractors directly. |
|
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
68
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 09:02:17 -
[1991] - Quote
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:So any guesses what the market price for injectors will be ? Sure. It's going to be (1/4+2/7+small_profit) PLEX, once the pool of "unwanted" SP is depleted and SP farms running on ISK (rather than real money) take over. So any sell price significantly below 0.54 PLEX is good for long term investment. Well, at least if you believe that PLEX prices themselves are going to hold steady or increase, which seems likely.
I doubt that there will be enough "unwanted" SP hitting the market to overcome both the "consumer" demand and the demand from people trying to stock up as investment. Other than triggering OCD or weird pride in a "lean" SP configuration, there is no real downside to keeping SP on your character. The number of people who need ISK right now, but have SP to spare, is not going to be that huge. It's more the demand side that needs ISK right now, if they try to shop for injectors. (So I expect people selling off other stuff to pay for the injector investment.) People who have spare SP, but no immediate need for ISK, will watch the market for a while, and thus witness it go up (due to a lack of the supply they would provide). We may never see prices below 0.54 PLEX...
Though if we do, I will throw what ISK I can free up at this. So will others. Hence, we may never see prices below 0.54 PLEX. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
631
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 09:52:09 -
[1992] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Hence, we may never see prices below 0.54 PLEX. It isn't likely to go much above this price, either.
SP farming will be a completely risk-free, passive activity, which most players will be able to easily do (Cybernetics 5 and the two cheapest +5 attribute plug-ins in an alt should be all you need, right?), so anytime the price rises beyond 0.54 PLEX, you can expect more people to start farming SP, thus pushing the prices back down. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33284
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 10:44:31 -
[1993] - Quote
Congratulations you guys figured out relative hard cost.
Here's the rub: PLEX will be consumed for extractors, while ISK can be won by playing. And then due to the SP penalty, the consumption to production ratio is worse than 1:1.
PLEX will look something like 2 to 2.5 Billion, .54 PLEX will be 1 B.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Memphis Baas
1092
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 11:22:33 -
[1994] - Quote
Aphatasis wrote:My subscription renewed automatical on 2016-02-05 for 3 month. Please don't tell me "bad luck"... If i change all my subscriptions to a 1 year cycle and 3d later change back to 3 month ? Plz more detailed infos about that "Free Extractors for Subscription"-thingy!!
You pre-pay when you pick a subscription, so I would guess you can cancel the 3 months, and you'll still have 3 months of play, just won't bill you again. Then you can immediately pre-pay for a year, picking up 4 free extractors. Then cancel again. And then pre-pay for another year, picking up 4 more free extractors. Then cancel again. etc.
You'll just end up pre-paying (and being able to play for 3 months + several years, of course).
You can test this by canceling your 3 months right now (you'll still be able to play), and then checking account management to see if you can see the extractor deals available.
|
Nuclear Nut Zack
CK-0FF Bad Intention
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 11:59:01 -
[1995] - Quote
...And it went live without pricing changes. Well, time to grab some popcorn and watch the show. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33285
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 12:34:13 -
[1996] - Quote
players are fighting for lowest sell order when The Americans haven't woken up yet.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Nuclear Nut Zack
CK-0FF Bad Intention
3
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 12:46:43 -
[1997] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:players are fighting for lowest sell order when The Americans haven't woken up yet. I stayed up just to unload a couple million useless SP before the market crashes. Mission accomplished. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33285
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 12:49:26 -
[1998] - Quote
I quit my job just to witness the SP apocalypse
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33288
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 12:56:43 -
[1999] - Quote
I have an alt in Jita AMA
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Memphis Baas
1093
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 14:01:34 -
[2000] - Quote
Market pricing updates are being posted in a thread in General Discussion. |
|
Nuclear Nut Zack
CK-0FF Bad Intention
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 14:01:49 -
[2001] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I have an alt in Jita AMA What will the injector price be in 10 minutes? |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
4653
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 14:42:38 -
[2002] - Quote
Nuclear Nut Zack wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I have an alt in Jita AMA What will the injector price be in 10 minutes?
Your question is being processed and your answer should be available within 11 minutes.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
220
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:32:59 -
[2003] - Quote
Sad day indeed.
There are some short term benefits for minor amount of players who will be able to afford these and know how to utilize it properly. I doubt that it will significantly increase revenue in the long term. Especially since i expect the number of subscriptions to go down.
Side effects will hit much harder I am afraid, lots of people feel betrayed and will question is this game worth investing their time and money when they are not provided with any consistency. When such game fundamentals can be changed, anything can. And after all CCP is company which provides us service for a fee, they should thoroughly think about customer relations and how they are handling those. It is much more than handling petitions. Beside this whole fail idea, very concerning is total lack of communication with the player base and provided feedback and it is quite disappointing that reddit is more important to them than their own game official forums. Plus, it is continuum of wrong direction, this will not fix eve in any way, quite contrary.
Beside that you have managed to fail even harder on the part of your original fail idea (protect sp prestige - which was not doable without hardcap) you have made it even more easier, with higher return for chars over 80mil sp. For ~80bil isk I can be top1 sp player. Nice way to tell Dr Caymus "thanks for your loyalty through all the years" CCP?
I predict that after first "boom" when people will get back to try it out, sell unneeded sp, buy sp to try out some ship, activity will go down since they will quit for the very same reasons they had quit in the first place. I doubt SP was the main issue there. Beside them disappointed players will quit and the numbers will shrink again.
in 1-2 year eve will have even less players and plex prices will go even higher. Anyone want to bet on it?
P.S. Maybe this is just CCP`s hidden plan to listen to vets for real and make it like 2005 again, I mean with the player numbers :D
P.P.S. I will not enter discussion with spammers/trolls/idiots from previous topic, you have failed to provide any counter arguments for the side effects in past and i really have no need to waste time on your gibberish. The change is here, CCP did not care about the feedback, future will show who was right. For the sake of game I really do hope it would be you, even though it is really hard to believe. I think the game is going in wrong direction and this is just another nail in the coffin (might be the most significant so far).
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
67
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 22:19:31 -
[2004] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Sad day indeed.
There are some short term benefits for minor amount of players who will be able to afford these and know how to utilize it properly. I doubt that it will significantly increase revenue in the long term. Especially since i expect the number of subscriptions to go down.
Side effects will hit much harder I am afraid, lots of people feel betrayed and will question is this game worth investing their time and money when they are not provided with any consistency. When such game fundamentals can be changed, anything can. And after all CCP is company which provides us service for a fee, they should thoroughly think about customer relations and how they are handling those. It is much more than handling petitions. Beside this whole fail idea, very concerning is total lack of communication with the player base and provided feedback and it is quite disappointing that reddit is more important to them than their own game official forums. Plus, it is continuum of wrong direction, this will not fix eve in any way, quite contrary.
Beside that you have managed to fail even harder on the part of your original fail idea (protect sp prestige - which was not doable without hardcap) you have made it even more easier, with higher return for chars over 80mil sp. For ~80bil isk I can be top1 sp player. Nice way to tell Dr Caymus "thanks for your loyalty through all the years" CCP?
I predict that after first "boom" when people will get back to try it out, sell unneeded sp, buy sp to try out some ship, activity will go down since they will quit for the very same reasons they had quit in the first place. I doubt SP was the main issue there. Beside them disappointed players will quit and the numbers will shrink again.
in 1-2 year eve will have even less players and plex prices will go even higher. Anyone want to bet on it?
P.S. Maybe this is just CCP`s hidden plan to listen to vets for real and make it like 2005 again, I mean with the player numbers :D
P.P.S. I will not enter discussion with spammers/trolls/idiots from previous topic, you have failed to provide any counter arguments for the side effects in past and i really have no need to waste time on your gibberish. The change is here, CCP did not care about the feedback, future will show who was right. For the sake of game I really do hope it would be you, even though it is really hard to believe. I think the game is going in wrong direction and this is just another nail in the coffin (might be the most significant so far).
This.
This change is so arrogant! I hope CCP goes belly up. Seriously.
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
810
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 00:23:20 -
[2005] - Quote
Damn, I was way off, I predicted around 600 mil and was constantly told I was wrong and they would be far cheaper.
900 mil + to inject 500K SP for a player who won't be effected by diminishing returns. Who more than likely won't have 900 mil unless they buy plex. Damn marketing at CCP went all out to make as much as possible for this didn't they.. This has EA game stores smell all over it. EA marketing strategies, profit before players - Hint, I've played EA games for many years and NEVER use their scam ripoff store. Seems New Eden Store remains off limits for now too. Shame really, if the store were more reasonably priced, there is a few skins I would like and be prepared to spend money on, except Aurum packs do not work for me unless I spend $74AU for a couple (yes TWO) of skins -- - -- - -- - --
I wonder if any of the marketing people at CCP have ever heard of - Selling more at cheaper prices (especially when you have very limited overhead) will show a much larger long term profit, than selling a few at high prices to a limited customer base. Digital products can be as cheap as the producer wants them to be, seems CCP would rather have a limited, smaller market for expensive items than a large (more customers using) market with more reasonably priced items.
For Devs - The new banner ad for 2X "bonus" Aurum. What a clever little advertising trick that is Your $20 will get you an extra 450 Aurum - Which is all but useless you are buying 5 skill extractors, which seem to be priced just so - Once the "extra bonus Aurum" is removed (in a week or two) You will always need to buy more Aurum than you need. Clever marketing for a quick profit but not good for long term. It's like CCP marketing knows SP trading will be a niche thing so have set out to profit as much as possible from it initially, knowing it won't be a long term income stream.
How many more items could be sold through the store long term, if they were say, 25% cheaper? How much income would CCP lose if they were 25% cheaper yet 50% more of the player base could justify spending money in the store because "whatever" is 25% cheaper and therefore players X and Y as well as A (player with more ready cash) can afford it?
Rant Over............
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6941
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 01:45:20 -
[2006] - Quote
Did someone link the mystical "everything Vs" gooed up character (which was born just today) already?
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
777
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 02:28:27 -
[2007] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Did someone link the mystical "everything Vs" gooed up character (which was born just today) already?
no but there are some of the who had injected a lot since yesterday (eveboard->most unlocated SP's) |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
29
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 05:11:42 -
[2008] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Natsuko can't hear you, they're playing Blade & Soul. I pop in every few days to see how the cancer is unfolding now that it's actually live, until my account expires. Honestly, going EVE -> Blade & Soul is tragic as all ****, might as well play Tetris. But I have a craving for MMOs, and nothing really approaches EVE anyway.
Unfortunately, CCPs business model is downright insane and I have no desire to keep supporting their insanity and greed, no matter how much I love the game. I keep playing it, they keep raping the very reasons I'm playing it for, all the while milking cash and laughing their ass off all the way to the bank. Screw that, it's just not worth it. The only thing the people in charge there seem to understand is revenue and loss of said revenue, so there they go. It's just -4 subscriptions on my part, but I'm sure I'm not the only one leaving over this - it'll add up. Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag and it ain't going back in. Only time will tell the extent of their screwup.
It's unfortunate, I was pretty happy with some of the other stuff that was being done. Damage effects are cool, so are killmarks, and I was pretty excited about all the Drifter content and how stuff was going to unfold with them. Citadels seemed interesting as well. But no amount of positives can quite balance out the cancer that is this SP trading system, at least as far as I'm concerned.
You can have a subscription-based game with no pay2win microtransactions, or a free2play game with pay2win microtransactions. CCP wants both, so they can go choke on a cactus instead. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
813
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 05:47:22 -
[2009] - Quote
Quote:Skill Extractors may be only activated if the client was started using the fully supported game launcher. This is to ensure two-factor authentication support for skill trading. So does this mean you can't use skill trading if you don't use 2 factor authentication? Or like the login process, 2 factor authentication is an option but not required?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1905
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 05:56:14 -
[2010] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Quote:Skill Extractors may be only activated if the client was started using the fully supported game launcher. This is to ensure two-factor authentication support for skill trading. So does this mean you can't use skill trading if you don't use 2 factor authentication? Or like the login process, 2 factor authentication is an option but not required? You can't use extractors if you started the game from the .exe file rather than the launcher because that bypasses 2FA if I understood correctly. You don't need 2FA, just the use of the launcher. |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
237
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 08:00:38 -
[2011] - Quote
Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk.
Thank you CCP for showing us on the very first day of implementing your stupid idea how much efforts, time and money of long lasting customers has been appreciated. Customers who have helped you built everything your game was. Really sends a strong message.
Remember the good old days since you wont have them again, karma is a *****.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1905
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 08:27:46 -
[2012] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk and 13 years of training. Thought I'd fix that for you. It's actually interesting that it's a contest now rather than a given. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
237
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 08:32:28 -
[2013] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk and 13 years of training. Thought I'd fix that for you. It's actually interesting that it's a contest now rather than a given.
Because you are unable to comprehend. I have already explained in previous topic that training queue was not always there, remaps either. So it has taken efforts to time skills, sometimes you had to wake up in the middle of the night in order to not lose training time. It has taken efforts to time them, to utilize attributes for the most SP/hour because people actually cared about it. It was a contest for 13 years. Just because you do not care does not mean others feels the same.
Edit: The point is, if there was no cash investment option he would be no 1 as others who trained even longer than him did not plan, execute, perform that well. But CCP decided to show us that time, money and efforts or the players who have been their customers longest are not worth a dime. GJ CCP!
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1905
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 08:38:26 -
[2014] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk and 13 years of training. Thought I'd fix that for you. It's actually interesting that it's a contest now rather than a given. Because you are unable to comprehend. I have already explained in previous topic that training queue was not always there, remaps either. So it has taken efforts to time skills, sometimes you had to wake up in the middle of the night in order to not lose training time. It has taken efforts to time them, to utilize attributes for the most SP/hour because people actually cared about it. It was a contest for 13 years. Just because you do not care does not mean others feels the same. Players A and B enter the game in 2003, put in the same effort, prioritize learning skills, pick the best race/bloodline for fastest potential learning, stick to their best attributes, alarmclock at the same frequency, take advantage of implants and remaps as introduced, but A got here a month before B. Which one would inherently and invariably have more SP before the prior downtime?
Funny thing is at one point it was something of a contest, but the skill queue killed that IIRC in 2009.
Edit: Also screw everyone who didn't min/max from near day 1 right? Those scrubs don't deserve to even enter the area of the arena on the 13 year vets. They think they're CCP customers because they pay a sub too? **** those guys amirite? |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
69
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 09:16:26 -
[2015] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk and 13 years of training. Thought I'd fix that for you. It's actually interesting that it's a contest now rather than a given. Because you are unable to comprehend. I have already explained in previous topic that training queue was not always there, remaps either. So it has taken efforts to time skills, sometimes you had to wake up in the middle of the night in order to not lose training time. It has taken efforts to time them, to utilize attributes for the most SP/hour because people actually cared about it. It was a contest for 13 years. Just because you do not care does not mean others feels the same. Players A and B enter the game in 2003, put in the same effort, prioritize learning skills, pick the best race/bloodline for fastest potential learning, stick to their best attributes, alarmclock at the same frequency, take advantage of implants and remaps as introduced, but A got here a month before B. Which one would inherently and invariably have more SP before the prior downtime? Funny thing is at one point it was something of a contest, with massive head starts, but the skill queue killed that last bit IIRC in 2009. Edit: Also screw everyone who didn't min/max from near day 1 right? Those scrubs don't deserve to even enter the area of the arena on the 13 year vets. They think they're CCP customers because they pay a sub too? **** those guys amirite?
If you remember ty, there were a few of us who said from the off the price they would be - the destruction of years of dedication - All in the name of the money grab. Everything is coming to fruition beautifully now and as much as i've loved and stayed loyal to this game i hope they ******* choke on this abomination that they have done. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
240
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 09:30:47 -
[2016] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk and 13 years of training. Thought I'd fix that for you. It's actually interesting that it's a contest now rather than a given. Because you are unable to comprehend. I have already explained in previous topic that training queue was not always there, remaps either. So it has taken efforts to time skills, sometimes you had to wake up in the middle of the night in order to not lose training time. It has taken efforts to time them, to utilize attributes for the most SP/hour because people actually cared about it. It was a contest for 13 years. Just because you do not care does not mean others feels the same. Players A and B enter the game in 2003, put in the same effort, prioritize learning skills, pick the best race/bloodline for fastest potential learning, stick to their best attributes, alarmclock at the same frequency, take advantage of implants and remaps as introduced, but A got here a month before B. Which one would inherently and invariably have more SP before the prior downtime? Funny thing is at one point it was something of a contest, with massive head starts, but the skill queue killed that last bit IIRC in 2009. Edit: Also screw everyone who didn't min/max from near day 1 right? Those scrubs don't deserve to even enter the area of the arena on the 13 year vets. They think they're CCP customers because they pay a sub too? **** those guys amirite?
If you have a system which works time + effort, of course those who had more time could have more awards. If you change some of those fundamentals after 13 years, you just screw those who have invested their time and efforts in that. And if you start playing the game with such system, it is quite obvious you will not be able to overcome those who invested more time and effort than you., unless you outlast them in the long run. Simple as that.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1905
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 10:26:39 -
[2017] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:If you remember ty, there were a few of us who said from the off the price they would be - the destruction of years of dedication - All in the name of the money grab. Everything is coming to fruition beautifully now and as much as i've loved and stayed loyal to this game i hope they ******* choke on this abomination that they have done. Yet here we are and nothing is destroyed. The issue as always is placing false importance on a competition that most of the players, including those who have played for years, can't even think about participating in, but for need of maintaining it can't actively advance their characters, even if at the expense of the advancement others put up for sale.
And the irony of it is that the gains from that dedication aren't lost. In fact today's lack of price explosion demonstrates that those same individuals, with their abundance of SP gained from that dedication, were willing participants in the mechanic at hand.
Don ZOLA wrote:Your story would maybe make sense if Dr Caymus was here since day 1. But he was late 10 days to that, so there are thousands of players who had head start on him, meaning he is top 1 without head start. Why? Cuz he performed better. And even with skill queue you still need to plan and optimize your attributes in order to gain max SP/h all the time.
Regardless of that, if you have a system which works time + effort, of course those who had more time could have more awards. If you change some of those fundamentals after 13 years, you just screw those who have invested their time and efforts in that. And if you start playing the game with such system, it is quite obvious you will not be able to overcome those who invested more time and effort than you., unless you outlast them in the long run. Simple as that. What I stated isn't changed by whether Caymus was here first or started yesterday. It's simple math Don. 2 people with equal rates of return over time using the same methods will only differ by how much time they've had to accrue SP. And that goes to great lengths to ignore every other reason why someone just as dedicated to SP, but perhaps with a worse starting attribute set, or taking time to train alts or whatever other reason.
Did he perform better? We don't even know, not every character is even on EB, and no manner of accounting for training efforts over the set attribute of the past of training multiple characters can be accounted for.
What we did know is that of those entering the game after a certain point couldn't even try to approach that effort because there was literally no way. Beyond that there's a certain irony that a pilot actively using a pirate implant set and taking risks in game and playing is considered less effort than someone sitting in station in +5s because they make his ticker move slightly faster by your reasoning. So here we are, with a means to actually have effort and SP progress intertwine again, yet you're still complaining, which makes it clear that it's not about effort, but tenure. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 10:29:22 -
[2018] - Quote
I bought a few yesterday to see if the prestige of the character is lost on injecting skill points and guess what, nothings been included to indicate that i'm a lazy B'stard so where is the protected " Prestige " now
Also on a side note i've found 2 sites offering them for sale and another taking enquiries for them already ..... Black Market much |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1905
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 10:37:45 -
[2019] - Quote
Compared with the number selling characters or isk that's actually amazingly low. But wait, that can't be since CCP so successfully disincentivized those via PLEX and the Bazaar.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 10:47:46 -
[2020] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Compared with the number selling characters or isk that's actually amazingly low. But wait, that can't be since CCP so successfully disincentivized those via PLEX and the Bazaar. Seeing as they have been out less than 24 hrs and all i did was google it you can bet there's a hell of a lot more doing it. Point being though it has now added yet another RMT to the growing product line of game items you can purchase externally. |
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
243
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 10:49:19 -
[2021] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Your story would maybe make sense if Dr Caymus was here since day 1. But he was late 10 days to that, so there are thousands of players who had head start on him, meaning he is top 1 without head start. Why? Cuz he performed better. And even with skill queue you still need to plan and optimize your attributes in order to gain max SP/h all the time.
Regardless of that, if you have a system which works time + effort, of course those who had more time could have more awards. If you change some of those fundamentals after 13 years, you just screw those who have invested their time and efforts in that. And if you start playing the game with such system, it is quite obvious you will not be able to overcome those who invested more time and effort than you., unless you outlast them in the long run. Simple as that. What I stated isn't changed by whether Caymus was here first or started yesterday. It's simple math Don. 2 people with equal rates of return over time using the same methods will only differ by how much time they've had to accrue SP. And that goes to great lengths to ignore every other reason why someone just as dedicated to SP, but perhaps with a worse starting attribute set, or taking time to train alts or whatever other reason. Did he perform better? We don't even know, not every character is even on EB, and no manner of accounting for training efforts over the set attribute of the past of training multiple characters can be accounted for. What we did know is that of those entering the game after a certain point couldn't even try to approach that effort because there was literally no way. Beyond that there's a certain irony that a pilot actively using a pirate implant set and taking risks in game and playing is considered less effort than someone sitting in station in +5s because they make his ticker move slightly faster by your reasoning. So here we are, with a means to actually have effort and SP progress intertwine again, yet you're still complaining, which makes it clear that it's not about effort, but tenure.
It is perfectly fine that you admit that you do not know it. Your lack of knowledge and understanding is visible in every post you make.
He did perform better. Or should he be blamed for making better starting attributes, is it his fault someone else did not do it? Is his fault someone has chosen worse training path? Is his fault someone died and lost implants while he was training in the station? People with lot of sp know how hard is to keep everything optimized even with remaps.
We know he performed better. If your theory was right, there would be almost no gaps in top 3 places or it would be lined according to age. But look at them, it is 10mil gap above #2 which was born at the same day. 10 Million! 17mil over #3 who waster playing before him. He OBVIOUSLY performed way better in terms of sp training.
As I already wrote but it seems you failed to understand (:shocker:):
if you have a system which works time + effort, of course those who had more time could have more awards. If you change some of those fundamentals after 13 years, you just screw those who have invested their time and efforts in that. And if you start playing the game with such system, it is quite obvious you will not be able to overcome those who invested more time and effort than you., unless you outlast them in the long run. Simple as that.
Those who join the game should play the game for fun or some other aim. It would be quite stupid to expect they can run for top sp player. Which still does not limit them in any way. They can become the richest, the best pvper or whatever else they want over time, but sp should have stayed off limits.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Morgan Agrivar
Happy Endings Massage Parlor
275
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 11:05:58 -
[2022] - Quote
Took this toon from 44m sp to just about 49.8m sp just today. Happy for the result and now time to go cold turkey from the skill injectors. It also allowed me to remove the mining skills I had when I first started that has bothered me for so long, skills that I haven't used in over two years, plus a few miscellaneous skills I didn't want there. Plus, big kudos to them for being able to inject any skill you want, regardless of whether you have the prerequisites. It is great for tiding up skill training.
Thank you CCP.
Just something about me...
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
71
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 12:03:50 -
[2023] - Quote
Morgan Agrivar wrote:Took this toon from 44m sp to just about 49.8m sp just today. Happy for the result and now time to go cold turkey from the skill injectors. It also allowed me to remove the mining skills I had when I first started that has bothered me for so long, skills that I haven't used in over two years, plus a few miscellaneous skills I didn't want there. Plus, big kudos to them for being able to inject any skill you want, regardless of whether you have the prerequisites. It is great for tiding up skill training.
Thank you CCP.
And it cost you how much for your 5 mill skill points, those mining skills that grieved you so much that you've drained whats it like still looking at the same mining skills now with no skill points but the books still there |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 19:16:00 -
[2024] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Compared with the number selling characters or isk that's actually amazingly low. But wait, that can't be since CCP so successfully disincentivized those via PLEX and the Bazaar. Seeing as they have been out less than 24 hrs and all i did was google it you can bet there's a hell of a lot more doing it. Point being though it has now added yet another RMT to the growing product line of game items you can purchase externally. Considering that list is added to with any new item that's not surprising in the least. There are offers for ships out there, does that mean we shouldn't add any more of those?
Don Zola wrote:Your lack of knowledge and understanding is visible in every post you make. Feel free to give specifics, else this line is just the same BS you were doing in the other thread, making erroneous claims and doubling down on pure rhetoric without support. I stated specific factors. You should be able to point to something if you have a leg to stand on.
Quote:He did perform better. No, we don't. And I've stated why. A player could have a superior performance split between characters and we'd have no way of knowing. Or they could have had superior performance even from before but due to a poor bloodline choice that effort and performance became irrelevant over time until remaps became a factor. Considering we're talking years with static attributes that creates sizable gaps in itself. Your position isn't taking into account the mechanics that would have affected those players and the impact single decisions made back then on having a top character 13 years later.
The only thing shocking here is that you insist on doubling down on saying people don't know what their talking about yet never actually provide evidence of it.
And thanks for admitting it was about time over effort. Thanks for recognizing that yes, you are entirely stating a players worth and investment was dictated first by tenure to even have high SP opportunities. Thanks for realizing that until yesterday no avenue for effort existed to close that gap save those explicitly allowed by those on top.
It's not really a contest if the player behind caymus has to quit the race in order for it to actually become a race. If he wants the throne back he can take it and has posted as much on the subject.
And the bigger irony is that for most it's not about closing on Caymus, it's about improving their own abilities for their own gameplay. They ARE doing it for fun and their own aims, but you refuse to entertain the idea that affecting advancement contributes to that at any level. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 22:27:05 -
[2025] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Considering that list is added to with any new item that's not surprising in the least. There are offers for ships out there, does that mean we shouldn't add any more of those?.
Didn't expect you to resort to smart ass comments but hey ho, I was referring to the fact that it could of been avoided if CCP had just sold the TSP for cash or traded with them for plex the same as transfers on the bazaar.
I spent the afternoon looking into just what is being sold and it's quite an eye opener, they can't take there RMT problem to serious as i've seen tournie ships and special edition ships on offer - Seeing as they're of very limited supply you telling me that they cannot be traced back to a point of origin.
Anything for a quick buck - very sad !!! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 22:33:22 -
[2026] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Didn't expect you to resort to smart ass comments but hey ho, I was referring to the fact that it could of been avoided if CCP had just sold the TSP for cash or traded with them for plex the same as transfers on the bazaar. It may have seemed like a smart comment, but it was intended just as asked. If the idea is bad as a potential vector for RMT and should have been avoided for that reason, should the reasoning be expanded to all similar cases? If not it seems hardly fitting to hold against this and only this mechanic.
Berrice Silf wrote:I spent the afternoon looking into just what is being sold and it's quite an eye opener, they can't take there RMT problem to serious as i've seen tournie ships and special edition ships on offer - Seeing as they're of very limited supply you telling me that they cannot be traced back to a point of origin.
Anything for a quick buck - very sad !!! It really is, but I personally think the game loses more by trying to design around this rather than simply letting designers design what's good for game play and letting the teams responsible for handling EULA violating RMT do just that. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 22:42:02 -
[2027] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Didn't expect you to resort to smart ass comments but hey ho, I was referring to the fact that it could of been avoided if CCP had just sold the TSP for cash or traded with them for plex the same as transfers on the bazaar. It may have seemed like a smart comment, but it was intended just as asked. If the idea is bad as a potential vector for RMT and should have been avoided for that reason, should the reasoning be expanded to all similar cases? If not it seems hardly fitting to hold against this and only this mechanic. Berrice Silf wrote:I spent the afternoon looking into just what is being sold and it's quite an eye opener, they can't take there RMT problem to serious as i've seen tournie ships and special edition ships on offer - Seeing as they're of very limited supply you telling me that they cannot be traced back to a point of origin.
Anything for a quick buck - very sad !!! It really is, but I personally think the game loses more by trying to design around this rather than simply letting designers design what's good for game play and letting the teams responsible for handling EULA violating RMT do just that. How cheap you can pick up plex packs out of game is staggering, you telling me that they can't in some way digitally ID tag them with some form of unique number same as the old cheques used to have - -ú16.99 from CCP 6 euro's from blackmarket traders.
Sorry but there security is dreadful. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1909
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 22:53:11 -
[2028] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:How cheap you can pick up plex packs out of game is staggering, you telling me that they can't in some way digitally ID tag them with some form of unique number same as the old cheques used to have - -ú16.99 from CCP 6 euro's from blackmarket traders.
Sorry but there security is dreadful. Probably could and would work fine until there were stacks involved. One could compensate by not allowing them to stack, not sure how bad that is for QoL though since I'm not a PLEX trader/hoader. Would probably bug the crap out of me though given how I handle in game inventory of the items I do have.
Though I'd wonder the gains there. Yes, you could track the PLEX back to its origin, but that doesn't really tell you who the RMTing party is any more that seeing that specific illicit transaction happen. It does tell you the original buyer, though unless done through stolen payment information it's a losing proposition. If it is there is a bigger issue than simply PLEX RMT for at least 1 unwittingly involved party.
|
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1057
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 00:41:38 -
[2029] - Quote
Its like the do not give a sh*t what older players want! And this is one update that proof my point here. Its a shame that this is become the norm of gaming. Money money money. Thats it. ****** laughing at older people that sponsor this game and then laughing at them while the wasting time over time and money for SP points.
Now we can now al say lets see how this will work out. There is one point thats the only plus point. That is ccp is going to make money again. Then the bring new players in there game (short time only) because when the notice the game is 3/4 of there time boring the will leave the first 2 months. Or waiting and hoping its gets better. Spending some 100 dollars in skill injectors and plex will give new players a happy short start when the understand that the only get bent over and get f*ck in there..... because sp do not make you pro....
So i`m not happy with it but if the are stupid well this is what we all get. Fun i think i hoop and to get more people in this game. i want to see 60k people at the end of this year back in or game. At a daily base. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
263
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 01:34:03 -
[2030] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Feel free to give specifics, else this line is just the same BS you were doing in the other thread, making erroneous claims and doubling down on pure rhetoric without support. I stated specific factors. You should be able to point to something if you have a leg to stand on.
You mean a thread where you have failed to provide a single counter argument to the side effects I mentioned and where you twisted out anything you could while digressing? Where you were denying economy laws? Stating that TSP will be cheap and everyone will be able to afford it easily? Where you denied official game and market data? Are you kidding me, get lost :D
Quote:No, we don't. And I've stated why. A player could have a superior performance split between characters and we'd have no way of knowing. Or they could have had superior performance even from before but due to a poor bloodline choice that effort and performance became irrelevant over time until remaps became a factor. Considering we're talking years with static attributes that creates sizable gaps in itself. Your position isn't taking into account the mechanics that would have affected those players and the impact single decisions made back then on having a top character 13 years later.
The only thing shocking here is that you insist on doubling down on saying people don't know what their talking about yet never actually provide evidence of it.
And thanks for admitting it was about time over effort. Thanks for recognizing that yes, you are entirely stating a players worth and investment was dictated first by tenure to even have high SP opportunities. Thanks for realizing that until yesterday no avenue for effort existed to close that gap save those explicitly allowed by those on top.
It's not really a contest if the player behind caymus has to quit the race in order for it to actually become a race. If he wants the throne back he can take it and has posted as much on the subject.
And the bigger irony is that for most it's not about closing on Caymus, it's about improving their own abilities for their own gameplay. They ARE doing it for fun and their own aims, but you refuse to entertain the idea that affecting advancement contributes to that at any level.
He did. Everyone could do the same he did, everyone had the same options to be contestant for top1. But its him there. He made good choices. With bloodline, with skills, with attributes. Should it be his faults others did not? Is it his faults he invested in implants and others (maybe) did not? Should he be banned cuz of that? :D Is it his fault he did EVERYTHING in order to be top 1 for 13 years?
Thousands of players had advantage on him. THOUSANDS. He was top 1 because he worked for his aim and performed better. Be it by purchasing implants, not losing pods without upgraded clones, or whatever else. He outperformed.
Of course you do not know, check top10 chars, most of them are not making max sp/h. Do you know why? Because it is quite hard to optimize everything to do it constantly. Dr Caymus was better than them obviously so far, but things change as he cannot keep max rate either + remaps are limited. So yes, it is a race. A long term race as every serious planning in eve demanded to be long term and commitment to the game had to be long term in order to achieve something. After changing game fundamentals after 13 years, what consistency can we count on, to be sure this game is worth our time+effort investment? After this change, we cant, there is obviously no sacred ground for ccp`s cash rush. Lot of players will find that it is not worth making long term plan and stick with it since they can be screwed any time over anything at all.
And of course someone who played way much less and invested way less time + effort should not get there. It is not about tenure it is about customers relations. People can buy high sp chars if they need them, they can even buy sp now, but they should never ever be provided option to take someone 13 years of loyalty. With this change, CCP send wrong message to the players. Even though some cannot understand it or do not want to think about it at all as short term personal gain is all they need. In the long run game loses and players with it as well.
I have proven many evidences already, they are still in all those topics, reason why you do not want to try to understand but prefer to troll is your problem.
And again you take things out of context. It was clearly written in my post that it takes TIME + EFFORT. It is obvious that you cannot comprehend what effort, so I give up. You will keep trolling/spamming anyway. Because choosing attributes, skill plans, remaps takes no effort. It is so simply whole eve player base trains at max sp/h, right?
Improving own abilities and gameplay is totally fine. Screwing up very loyal customers is not. That is why CCP HAD to put a hardcap on this. I cannot say I am shocked that they have failed, ever since they even brought up this idea they cannot shock me any more. Only the time will tell what will be the consequences. I bet on bad ones.
Since I have said I will stop replying to trolls etc, this is my last reply to you. I am looking forward your taking things out of context, with lack of ability to look at the whole picture, change POV, lack of comprehensions, knowledge etc to twist it any way you want and claim your forum victory. Cheers!
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1910
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 02:20:59 -
[2031] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:You mean a thread where you have failed to provide a single counter argument to the side effects I mentioned and where you twisted out anything you could while digressing? Where you were denying economy laws? Stating that TSP will be cheap and everyone will be able to afford it easily? Where you denied official game and market data? Are you kidding me, get lost :D Feel free to point out where I didn't directly address your BS. Funny thing here is that the numbers I did were actually pretty much right, the only factor not accounted for was the one we didn't have, the extractor price, which is something I admitted I speculated incorrectly on. So those economic laws played out as expected. Better than I expected really given what the extractor price actually was, and far from the doom scenarios and non-availability argued against. And no market data was denied, you just twisted things to try to mean what you wanted them to mean rather than what they actually did mean.
Don ZOLA wrote:Cut for length To start, you're again conflating the top SP with best performance when that doesn't result in top character unless the ability to split training time between characters doesn't exist and all training time was equal, but we know that's not the case.
And you state thousands had the jump on him, well for lack on information on my part lets just ask. Best info I can find suggests launch on May 6th, 2003. Caymus was created on May 16th. He at worst had 10 days training to overcome, regardless of how many thousands of players that may have entailed unless of course some manner of progress was kept from beta, feel free to advise if that was the case. So we're not talking an actual strong deficit here, despite your attempt to hind that behind a player count rather than the trivial potential SP it actually entails.
Regarding maximizing SP, that's actually pretty easy. Easy enough that over 7 years my best SP/hour is within 5 points of 2700. Why? Because aside from sitting in a station with +5's there's need for at best a years worth of skills to shove in the queue. And I really can't even be screwed over on it due to CCP making a habit of not changing attribute sets for skills. As conceded prior yes, there is some level of accomplishment there prior to the queue, but that removed most of the competition at that point and trivialized effort. As far as being banned, aside from being unnecessarily dramatic what point was there in even mentioning that? Who ever suggested he should be punished for accumulating SP?
Now to the point at hand, there really isn't a way for any amount of effort to close the time gap. I can do everything perfectly under the prior system and not see the top. Ever. Or be even remotely close as the peak moves as fast as it can be chased. As such it's a non competition. Something not worthy of preserving. A not really trophy for the guy at the front of the race for 13 years.
The problem is that this non-race tells everyone else that their progress needs to be capped, and that the cap can be reached with no continuous effort, or better is achieved through non-effort. It very much simply boils down to time rather than time+effort since the effort part is capped incomparably lower than time. I mean really, I know you mean to suggest the opposite but yes, skill plans, implants and attributes are no effort. Their extremely trivial.
And all this comes without screwing over anyone, because no one lost what they had unlocked and gained. They just didn't get to further their exclusivity of that SP. How horrid. End of the game. Bad consequences.
Quote:Since I have said I will stop replying to trolls etc, this is my last reply to you. I am looking forward your taking things out of context, with lack of ability to look at the whole picture, change POV, lack of comprehensions, knowledge etc to twist it any way you want and claim your forum victory. Cheers! This is probably your 3rd or 4th time claiming that, if you actually stick to it I might even miss our exchanges. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2192
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 07:39:56 -
[2032] - Quote
I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part.
Also, the claims about Freighter ganking harming new players seams to become true now since CODE. already ganked a 9bil ISK Ark of a 4 day old player.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1914
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 08:48:15 -
[2033] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part. Not really much of a side effect considering it was already paid in training time prior.
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Also, the claims about Freighter ganking harming new players seams to become true now since CODE. already ganked a 9bil ISK Ark of a 4 day old player. Does anyone honestly look at that cargo and think the was a 4 day old player as opposed to a 4 day old alt of someone who can fly a variety of ships or is hauling for those that can?
I mean honestly, who instantly goes for the closest things to flying coffins in game first?
|
Morgan Agrivar
Happy Endings Massage Parlor
277
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 08:57:31 -
[2034] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Morgan Agrivar wrote:Took this toon from 44m sp to just about 49.8m sp just today. Happy for the result and now time to go cold turkey from the skill injectors. It also allowed me to remove the mining skills I had when I first started that has bothered me for so long, skills that I haven't used in over two years, plus a few miscellaneous skills I didn't want there. Plus, big kudos to them for being able to inject any skill you want, regardless of whether you have the prerequisites. It is great for tiding up skill training.
Thank you CCP. Actually i'll rephrase it how much did your 6.5/7 mill skill points cost, those mining skills that grieved you so much that you've drained whats it like still looking at the same mining skills now with no skill points but the books still there True, it would be better if we could remove the skillbooks too, but I was able to take those skill points and put them into finishing my gunnery skills (15.8m sp perfect subcap with all guns) instead of it sitting there, doing nothing in the mining skillbook. I can just keep that tab closed and my OCD will not have an issue with it.
Just something about me...
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 11:10:31 -
[2035] - Quote
Initially I was excited about this change, but now I just feel quite cynical and a bit disillusioned with EVE and CCP.
I was hoping to siphon some SP from one character to another, but then the cash cost of the extractors sank in (I'm not space rich). I would need to spend -ú80 to get the AUR for enough extractors.
I logged in to the AUR store and considered buying the big AUR pack. Then I considered what -ú80 could buy me elsewhere. I could buy The Last Of Us, Fallout 4 and Divinity: Original Sin for my PS4 and still have change out of -ú80. That's three great games for the price of 15m skill points - actually 12m due to diminishing returns. -ú80 will also buy two max level characters in World of Warcraft, or sixteen albums from Bandcamp.
And so the cost has made me consider whether EVE is worth investing my money in. I could of course simply continue as before and earn my sp the normal way. But now the injectors are part of the game there is always going to be this feeling that I could be advancing my character much faster, and that bugs me. (Before someone says "but character bazaar", that's not the same. That's not advancing my character, it's paying for someone else's).
Earning sp via the normal time-based subscription method now feels like playing the crappy low xp f2p version, and earning sp via injectors is like the premium or 'upgraded' pay monthly version. - except I'm still paying a monthly sub. |
Ajantschin
Brigade of Guards Orion Empire
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 11:33:11 -
[2036] - Quote
Dibz wrote: Earning sp via the normal time-based subscription method now feels like playing the crappy low xp f2p version, and earning sp via injectors is like the premium or 'upgraded' pay monthly version. - except I'm still paying a monthly sub.
I totally agree to that
Proud member of the Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S.)
#Are you a gambling addict? Then this is the right place for you IwantIsk!
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
83
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 13:44:23 -
[2037] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Initially I was excited about this change, but now I just feel quite cynical and a bit disillusioned with EVE and CCP.
I was hoping to siphon some SP from one character to another, but then the cash cost of the extractors sank in (I'm not space rich). I would need to spend -ú80 to get the AUR for enough extractors.
I logged in to the AUR store and considered buying the big AUR pack. Then I considered what -ú80 could buy me elsewhere. I could buy The Last Of Us, Fallout 4 and Divinity: Original Sin for my PS4 and still have change out of -ú80. That's three great games for the price of 15m skill points - actually 12m due to diminishing returns. -ú80 will also buy two max level characters in World of Warcraft, or sixteen albums from Bandcamp.
And so the cost has made me consider whether EVE is worth investing my money in. I could of course simply continue as before and earn my sp the normal way. But now the injectors are part of the game there is always going to be this feeling that I could be advancing my character much faster, and that bugs me. (Before someone says "but character bazaar", that's not the same. That's not advancing my character, it's paying for someone else's).
Earning sp via the normal time-based subscription method now feels like playing the crappy low xp f2p version, and earning sp via injectors is like the premium or 'upgraded' pay monthly version. - except I'm still paying a monthly sub.
Its been an exercise in making money fast, I've noticed a lot of the gobsh*tes who were in full support of this in the original thread have not made an appearance here saying how wonderful it is. It has nothing to do with being cynical either you are now paying for the privilege of a subbed f2p base model with the benefits of being RL rich or space rich to gain you time perks. How this mess is going to draw new players in is laughable. |
Memphis Baas
1108
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 14:02:44 -
[2038] - Quote
It's absolutely wonderful!
Not only that, but it's opened the door for more microtransactions, so I'm looking forward to CCP making more money, and spending some of it to code more EVE stuff, including quality-of-life things.
Basically, looking forward to seeing everything you hate. Your rage is delicious. Also, not posting much here, because General Discussion is full of threads, keeping me busy.
And also, I'm switching over to the upcoming Carriers / FAUX threads. Gonna **** that up for you. Again, because I love the rage. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2197
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 16:17:19 -
[2039] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part. Not really much of a side effect considering it was already paid in training time prior. How is that comment even remotely relevant to what I wrote? No one cares where that SP came from. It's on the market now and it has a price tag.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 17:05:08 -
[2040] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:It's absolutely wonderful!
Not only that, but it's opened the door for more microtransactions, so I'm looking forward to CCP making more money, and spending some of it to code more EVE stuff, including quality-of-life things.
Basically, looking forward to seeing everything you hate. Your rage is delicious. Also, not posting much here, because General Discussion is full of threads, keeping me busy.
And also, I'm switching over to the upcoming Carriers / FAUX threads. Gonna **** that up for you. Again, because I love the rage. No rage, i've shut 5 accounts down now i just have this to watch the mess unfold - Pretty much gone back to WoW / Destiny at present. Certainly not subbing to play a f2p game anymore. |
|
Memphis Baas
1108
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 17:07:15 -
[2041] - Quote
You playing 5 accounts on WoW / Destiny? |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
118
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 17:25:06 -
[2042] - Quote
Not alot of use crying about extractors/injectors now is it really, YOU voted for this addition to the game when you sat back and drooled down your vest about Arum, CQ and the Nex store.
All the work put in by past and current players regarding ''Pay-to-Win'', all for nothing in the end, CCP brought it in via the back door and only now because ''You did not listen did you stanley'', are you realising the full implications of what CCP are upto.
As for the cash they make out of you over this, Don't look to Eve improvements, look instead at the money being syphoned off into VR for were your hard earned dollars are going, Chasing the Mug money there.
And still numbers continue to fall, Motivation to play bleeds away, and people who once supported the game now find it difficult to find a good word to say about it if they can be bothered to say anything at all.
Congratulations CCP, Keep up the good work. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 17:25:46 -
[2043] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:You playing 5 accounts on WoW / Destiny? You illiterate or something, i've shut 5 accounts down now i just have this to watch the mess unfold I just have this account Berrice Silf to keep track of what is happeneing. Soft really as the dev's seem to pay more attention to whats said on reddit than where they paying customers actually post |
Mishra San
Spaceships Anonymous
33
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 18:05:42 -
[2044] - Quote
Courtesy of Amarr Local [666]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BdyIGtYcg
How could you possibly leave this grandeur?
sending virtual hug, virtual hug sent!
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33291
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 18:05:54 -
[2045] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:You playing 5 accounts on WoW / Destiny? You illiterate or something, i've shut 5 accounts down now i just have this to watch the mess unfold I just have this account Berrice Silf to keep track of what is happeneing. Soft really as the dev's seem to pay more attention to whats said on reddit than where they paying customers actually post I think Memphis was just asking if you multibox WoW or Destiny
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1914
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 19:14:43 -
[2046] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part. Not really much of a side effect considering it was already paid in training time prior. How is that comment even remotely relevant to what I wrote? No one cares where that SP came from. It's on the market now and it has a price tag. That would make sense to argue if market SP were the only source. It's not. Regular training still works, allowing you to move into new content for no more than the price of your sub as before. There is no additional side effect here since being able to bank unallocated SP is both a player choice and the direct intended effect of skill injectors.
So the cost to play new content is an additional $0, how terribly greedy indeed. You can make it more if you want, but that's the players choice, not a CCP mandate. |
Reiisha
Repracor Industries
803
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 19:19:30 -
[2047] - Quote
Oh, look, what i said would happen has happened:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/451s7q/injector_addict_tops_eveboard_for_highest_sp/
What a surprise.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
|
Memphis Baas
1108
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 19:23:11 -
[2048] - Quote
Yes, I'm asking if you multi-box WoW or Destiny / or are as involved with those games as you are were with EVE. Trying to figure out if you're an avid gamer, or if you were so involved with EVE only. And I'm asking because ragequitting 5 accounts due to a patch that you could clearly ignore by not paying a cent for injectors or extractors seems like over-reacting to me. |
Mnemet
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard.
112
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 20:12:04 -
[2049] - Quote
Farewell my dear Eve.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/51944865/
http://i.imgur.com/wtckQR6.jpg
4 days account in JF...
Welcome to F2P game :( |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
90
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:13:05 -
[2050] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Yes, I'm asking if you multi-box WoW or Destiny / or are as involved with those games as you are were with EVE. Trying to figure out if you're an avid gamer, or if you were so involved with EVE only. And I'm asking because ragequitting 5 accounts due to a patch that you could clearly ignore by not paying a cent for injectors or extractors seems like over-reacting to me. I've played eve - wow for 11 years occasionally favoring one over the other as the years have passed but pretty much solid subs althrough, i've never multiboxed anything and pre those two i was very active with competition quakeworld / quake3.
Yes i was an avid gamer now its more for fun, but this is without doubt the worst thing i've ever seen any developer do and say its for the good of the game and also what the community wanted. what person in there right mind is going to cough up -ú10 a month and stick with the grind for a while or be told if you get your wallet out you can fly anything you want. I dont pay subs for a game that has now a full on f2p model and locked to only 3 characters per account.
Every single aspect of eve is now advanced with payment, characters / skill points / ships / modules / plex / minerals / everything plus you have to pay a subscription. Who's the bigger mug the one that quits or the one's that keep on feeding the corporate greed. |
|
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
185
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:28:09 -
[2051] - Quote
Farewell dear Eve?
This is ******* AMAZING! If the SP change creates these kinds of lossmails, the change was indeed for the better. |
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
17
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:30:14 -
[2052] - Quote
I have been doing a little thinking about this change. I am sorry if that proces takes a little more time for me, but i believe the results to be decent. I believe that there is a rather significant difference between someone trying to relocate skillpoints from an area he does not need to one he does, and someone trying to simply sell his skillpoints. Or to put it more accurately, i believe there should be a difference. To that end i would like to suggest putting a penalty of some sort on injecting the skillpoints on a character other then the one they where extracted from, or a bonus to injecting them to the same character. The way i see it, the two most valuable commodities in EVE have always been time and contacts, and i do not believe it does justice to the game to change that so strongly in such a short time. |
Dingoo Ridgeback
Bitten By Science
2
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:52:35 -
[2053] - Quote
Hi, I went through the discussion only briefly so please excuse me if the point I'm trying to make was already debated. First I want to say I'm all for skill transfers and I think this is a good idea. I don't realy see selling SPs as a pay2win mechanism. Is there even a way to win EvE? Pay2win here seems to mean pay2unlock-game-content and that's OK by me, especially since that content can otherwise be unlocked only by waiting. What else is training SPs but waiting and slowly aging? So the question is if it's OK to skip waiting. And remember that theese SPs had to be acquired by other player, so somebody must be willing to trade their SPs - in other words the age of their character - for ISK. Since you have to pay subscription fee or invest PLEX in order to obtain SPs on multiple accounts, I don't see any danger in farming those. - there is no real danger of farming SPs to obtain ISK (PLEX allows you to convert RM to ISK more effectivelly) - few characters can become a kind of SP supermen, but this is a momentary thing since less and less players will be willing to part with their SPs. - high SP characters won't break the game since there are a lot of areas where acquiring more SPs over a certain limit won't do anything for you, and a lot of players are already at that threshold This is a new interesting mechanic we'll have to adapt or compensate for, nothing more. That being said keep in mind that I'm 60M+ SPs "old" and that I've never sold PLEX for ISK, just to give you a context. Sorry for the long love-letter, fly safe!
We had to work hard to become the top of the food chain so enjoy your steak and stop babbling about some healthy vegies.
|
Memphis Baas
1108
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 22:13:22 -
[2054] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:What person in there right mind is going to cough up -ú10 a month and stick with the grind for a while...
Me. Others. I'm not going to pay $15,000 for a game. $15 / month + the occasional PLEX so I can avoid grinding are sufficient payment for the entertainment I'm getting, from this game or any other. I've played EQ, WoW, COH, Aion, SWTOR, and EVE and they all have microtransactions which I've had no trouble ignoring.
In case you're wondering, I have 2 accounts, 100m and 20m, started years ago (with breaks) and year ago, respectively. I don't feel the need to "clean up" my skills on the 100m even though they're all over the place, and while it's tempting to jump the 20m to 50m so I could skip over having to train boring support skills, I won't. I used to have more high-SP characters, but I sold them, because I get bored and start over periodically.
I've used a total of 9 injectors, to get 2 "trading" alts from 3 to 5 million SP so they have decent trading skills and a decent industrial ship with good support skills to haul stuff if they need to. That's reasonable, don't you think?
I support the skill trading feature because I believe CCP was stuck with the decreasing subscriptions and the monument shooting whenever they tried to implement anything, and this gives them much needed revenue, as well as shutting us the hell up, a little. It's done, it's implemented, it's over, it's reason for a lot of people to ragequit; looking forward to the blissful silence after they're gone.
And then CCP can go and implement whatever tf they want within their game, and we won't be addicted to keeping subscriptions going just for the sake of skillpoints, if they implement truly horrible ****. It'll be like any other game: if it sucks, everybody quits. You don't feel the need to keep your WoW subscription going if they release a truly horrible expansion, say, pandas, or pizzas, or whatever, do you? EVE will now be the same.
So if CCP screws up the upcoming carrier changes, or the citadels, or the force auxiliaries, and don't revitalize the nullsec wars like they should have a while ago, this game will fail, and there are 10 or so other games waiting on my hard disk to play them. On the other hand, if they manage to make the game FUN, they should be proud, and I'll buy a bunch of extra injectors to show my appreciation with my wallet.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 22:28:16 -
[2055] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:What person in there right mind is going to cough up -ú10 a month and stick with the grind for a while... Me. Others. I'm not going to pay $15,000 for a game. $15 / month + the occasional PLEX so I can avoid grinding are sufficient payment for the entertainment I'm getting, from this game or any other. I've played EQ, WoW, COH, Aion, SWTOR, and EVE and they all have microtransactions which I've had no trouble ignoring. In case you're wondering, I have 2 accounts, 100m and 20m, started years ago (with breaks) and year ago, respectively. I don't feel the need to "clean up" my skills on the 100m even though they're all over the place, and while it's tempting to jump the 20m to 50m so I could skip over having to train boring support skills, I won't. I used to have more high-SP characters, but I sold them, because I get bored and start over periodically. I've used a total of 9 injectors, to get 2 "trading" alts from 3 to 5 million SP so they have decent trading skills and a decent industrial ship with good support skills to haul stuff if they need to. That's reasonable, don't you think? I support the skill trading feature because I believe CCP was stuck with the decreasing subscriptions and the monument shooting whenever they tried to implement anything, and this gives them much needed revenue, as well as shutting us the hell up, a little. It's done, it's implemented, it's over, it's reason for a lot of people to ragequit; looking forward to the blissful silence after they're gone. And then CCP can go and implement whatever tf they want within their game, and we won't be addicted to keeping subscriptions going just for the sake of skillpoints, if they implement truly horrible ****. It'll be like any other game: if it sucks, everybody quits. You don't feel the need to keep your WoW subscription going if they release a truly horrible expansion, say, pandas, or pizzas, or whatever, do you? EVE will now be the same. So if CCP screws up the upcoming carrier changes, or the citadels, or the force auxiliaries, and don't revitalize the nullsec wars like they should have a while ago, this game will fail, and there are 10 or so other games waiting on my hard disk to play them. On the other hand, if they manage to make the game FUN, they should be proud, and I'll buy a bunch of extra injectors to show my appreciation with my wallet. No game double dips like CCP have undertaken with this last patch and primetime hours 27k PCU ive played beta weekends in games with 4 times the playerbase. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1914
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 22:41:56 -
[2056] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:No game double dips like CCP have undertaken with this last patch and primetime hours 27k PCU ive played beta weekends in games with 4 times the playerbase. We've been around that PCU for a while, including the months before the first announcement. Looking at the numbers it seems this has had no significant effect on PCU at all. |
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 00:09:35 -
[2057] - Quote
Also, i am supprised CCP has not taken the opportunity presented by the introduction of falloff on reppers to introduce skills that effect that falloff or optimal range. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33293
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 04:31:43 -
[2058] - Quote
I want to believe this is the intermediate step before making reps fully turret-formula.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2203
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 08:00:02 -
[2059] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part. Not really much of a side effect considering it was already paid in training time prior. How is that comment even remotely relevant to what I wrote? No one cares where that SP came from. It's on the market now and it has a price tag. That would make sense to argue if market SP were the only source. It's not. Regular training still works, and was what I was referring to as opposed to filling injectors, allowing you to move into new content for no more than the price of your sub as before. There is no additional side effect here since being able to bank unallocated SP is both a player choice and the direct intended effect of skill injectors. So the cost to play new content is an additional $0, how terribly greedy indeed. You can make it more if you want, but that's the players choice, not a CCP mandate. Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.
It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.
And sorry, but to just pretend that there is no such side effect while this is actually happening in other threads is plain stupid. So IF you feel the need to share your not so big insights into thing, at least try to address the issues people are talking about?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1914
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 08:27:57 -
[2060] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people. So what you're saying is that taking advantage of the headstart being opened to all those pilots now, which due to the train involved and related justifiable complaints could result in an even better deal as CCP reconsiders somehow means all those nullsec alliances not buying SP will get caught with their pants down?
Really?
How did this completely oblivious alliance ignoring months forewarning and opportunity actually manage to take sov?
Ima Wreckyou wrote:It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.
And sorry, but to just pretend that there is no such side effect while this is actually happening in other threads is plain stupid. So IF you feel the need to share your not so big insights into thing, at least try to address the issues people are talking about? No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes. It takes either intentional stretching of the truth if not flat out deception for the scenario you panted to become reality for any decently knowledgeable group, much less a sov holding alliance. Yes the option is available, no it's still not mandated even just to be ready for the upcoming changes as those seem to be getting potentially less intensive on top of the head start.
So yes, even with the most SP intensive change in quite a while the slow way is still entirely viable. And especially so on that scale where the numbers and planning game matter far more than making sure each pilot has level 5 everything. That's where the individual SP game is mitigated the most.
The rest is unsupported projection. Now more than ever players are moving towards more and more trivial trains for each new thing that comes out. Some will want to be at the top first, but I'd imagine the vast majority here, with an understanding of how skills work and the massive investment involved, won't feel the need to be nearly so eager.
And really no, we haven't seen threads stating the effects you've claimed. We've seen people who wanted and did make the decision to participate, but seem to lack any claims of coercion by CCP on the part of the buyers. The only real complaints we've actually seen came from the opposite end of the spectrum claiming CCP strong armed them into selling SP, boredom and disenfranchisement. |
|
Dibz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 11:11:06 -
[2061] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.
It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.
Yep. The game feels different now. Even if you don't want the carrot CCP is dangling in front of you, you are continuously being reminded it's there, you have to keep ignoring it.
Fact is, if you're not buying skill injectors your character is progressing much more slowly than the game allows for. Some will be okay with that, others will watch their skill queue slowly ticking down with a nagging sense that they're wasting time and being left behind. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 11:26:04 -
[2062] - Quote
Dibz wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.
It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations. Yep. The game feels different now. Even if you don't want the carrot CCP is dangling in front of you, you are continuously being reminded it's there, you have to keep ignoring it. Fact is, if you're not buying skill injectors your character is progressing much more slowly than the game allows for. Some will be okay with that, others will watch their skill queue slowly ticking down with a nagging sense that they're wasting time and being left behind. I find now this game has entered some very dangerous territory, in any game whether it's free 2 play or subscription if there are micro transactions for anything you don't loose it, may have to be repaired or again upgraded but never lost.
This has now become a almost like a fantasy space poker sim where you can invest hundreds to thousands of dollars and one mistake can see you losing the lot. This is fine if money is no object but chasing that carrot to some could be costly.
Another first for CCP an MMO that needs to have a Gambleaware status .
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2520
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 11:36:43 -
[2063] - Quote
Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors?
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17464
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 11:42:47 -
[2064] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors?
It's in this month's Accounts Receivable statement.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 12:21:21 -
[2065] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors? It's in this month's Accounts Receivable statement. A sublime reply |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
99
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 15:34:33 -
[2066] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes. If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1916
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 17:28:50 -
[2067] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes. If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points No, my reply to that was, "Who cares if they do? Skills are capped at lvl V for a reason and only so much SP can be applied to any ship or fit" to paraphrase. I never expected that to be an exaggeration long term, but also consider it not a problem.
I also asked, since our existing training was unaffected and we retained all those abilities gained, why it was so important to deny those skills to others based purely on tenure. Still haven't gotten a direct reply. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 17:49:13 -
[2068] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes. If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points No, my reply to that was, "Who cares if they do? Skills are capped at lvl V for a reason and only so much SP can be applied to any ship or fit" to paraphrase. I never expected that to be an exaggeration long term, but also consider it not a problem. I also asked, since our existing training was unaffected and we retained all those abilities gained, why it was so important to deny those skills to others based purely on tenure. Still haven't gotten a direct reply. Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??
Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1916
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 18:05:20 -
[2069] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??
Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base. First, our levels are non-linear and nothing here takes 10 years to get to. Second, because the vast majority of the ships and tools are locked behind SP which is what makes training desired in the first place. Third, not everyone wants to be at the same SP as a 10 year old vet, some just want a boost to one year from 6 months. Others may just want to top off a skill the missed which is now off map.
The whole, "why do you need to be on par with 10 year old characters" is pretty much the type of exaggeration I was trying to point out. It seems most aren't using it for that so much as building a particular competency rather than the multiple competencies gained in 10 years.
The question I'd pose to your doom prediction is "Why, if we're to the point of squeezing what's left out of it" is there still costly active development going on? Why the hardware upgrade? Why does nothing actually match up with that line of thinking yet it still keeps popping up?
Or is squeezing what's left not the intended sentiment? Maybe just supplementing income? Possible, though from CCPs last published financials Eve itself was profitable so unless the numbers dropped significantly more than login activity suggests and we're all just playing more individually to make up for it I don't see why that would change. |
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 18:07:25 -
[2070] - Quote
First people argue that SP don't matter and that noobs will be tricked into buying it when the reality is that training for the long term is the most satisfying part of the game ..
.. and now people are arguing that if you don't immediately buy your way into every new shiny thing then you'll be left behind!
Which is it, guys? Some people in here are just determined to hate the injectors regardless of what "logic" they implement. It's fine if you hate it, that's fine, but thousands and thousands of them were traded in Jita alone in the last few days. You are the minority.
It might be slightly sad to see Caymus drop off the #1 spot but he'll always be remembered as the guy that trained his way to #1, but perhaps now with him knocked down it'll free up people from thinking or worrying about who has "the most" skillpoints - it's irrelevant now. What is relevant is what you do in the game, what you have fun doing, how you develop and use your brain and social connections. This game is not about watching a number that you cannot really influence beyond a certain point count up anymore. Great! |
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 19:10:02 -
[2071] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??
Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base. First, our levels are non-linear and nothing here takes 10 years to get to. Second, because the vast majority of the ships and tools are locked behind SP which is what makes training desired in the first place. Third, not everyone wants to be at the same SP as a 10 year old vet, some just want a boost to one year from 6 months. Others may just want to top off a skill the missed which is now off map. The whole, "why do you need to be on par with 10 year old characters" is pretty much the type of exaggeration I was trying to point out. It seems most aren't using it for that so much as building a particular competency rather than the multiple competencies gained in 10 years. The question I'd pose to your doom prediction is "Why, if we're to the point of squeezing what's left out of it" is there still costly active development going on? Why the hardware upgrade? Why does nothing actually match up with that line of thinking yet it still keeps popping up? Or is squeezing what's left not the intended sentiment? Maybe just supplementing income? Possible, though from CCPs last published financials Eve itself was profitable so unless the numbers dropped significantly more than login activity suggests and we're all just playing more individually to make up for it I don't see why that would change. You are the one who always brings up tenure, its like your little twist out mechanism then when responded to you bleet like a lamb with a slit throat ..... make your mind up ty.
I'm not on about doom im talking of pure unadulterated greed by CCP - They offered this garbage and most wanted a change as in reallocation of skills, something to speed up training - We get this heap of shite thats ripped the heart out of a game thats stood by it's principles ..... until now. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
787
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 19:18:53 -
[2072] - Quote
http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/11/eve-online-player-buys-nearly-7000-worth-of-skill-injectors/
Success! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1916
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 19:29:02 -
[2073] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:You are the one who always brings up tenure, its like your little twist out mechanism then when responded to you bleet like a lamb with a slit throat ..... make your mind up ty. Where did I say tenure = 10 years? Please point that out. Why is it that you insist on these false dichotomies? Why is tenure only equal to 10 years now? I've made up my mind, and explained CONSISTANTLY several times what's going on. So how about we stop playing this word game shall we? Tenure isn't just specific numbers of months or years and you know that.
You also know training exclusively took time before so there was absolutely no reason for this little diversion.
Berrice Silf wrote:I'm not on about doom im talking of pure unadulterated greed by CCP - They offered this garbage and most wanted a change as in reallocation of skills, something to speed up training - We get this heap of shite thats ripped the heart out of a game thats stood by it's principles ..... until now. We got both of those things. We know their both functioning fine. Now we're complaining that it comes at cost. A higher cost than necessary? IMHO yes, but it's moving along just fine despite that, so most likely my price expectations were completely wrong and the feature as a whole indeed can sustain a higher price point than I anticipated.
And the only principle violated is the one people asked to be violated per your own words. The only change is the inviolability of SP itself. You could already buy people's time, now we have what is simply another method. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
428
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 22:39:14 -
[2074] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk.
Thank you CCP for showing us on the very first day of implementing your stupid idea how much efforts, time and money of long lasting customers has been appreciated. Customers who have helped you built everything your game was. Really sends a strong message to existing player base and to potential new players.
Remember the good old days since you wont have them again, karma is a *****.
Edit: And be ashamed of what you have become. I remember CCP which actually had some morale stands and care for customers...
And this just shows those idiots on previous topics how much they lack a clue, since I wrote this will happen and they were all denying it...
Every gamer outside of new eden, on gaming related (media) websites / forums, show in their comments how CCP sucks
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games pay More to win at skill training time, now with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6941
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 00:08:34 -
[2075] - Quote
galtest12345 wrote:First people argue that SP don't matter and that noobs will be tricked into buying it when the reality is that training for the long term is the most satisfying part of the game ..
.. and now people are arguing that if you don't immediately buy your way into every new shiny thing then you'll be left behind!
Which is it, guys? Some people in here are just determined to hate the injectors regardless of what "logic" they implement. It's fine if you hate it, that's fine, but thousands and thousands of them were traded in Jita alone in the last few days. You are the minority. What do you expect, we're starting from the end and working backwards to figure out which base beliefs are needed to justify the outrage.
galtest12345 wrote:It might be slightly sad to see Caymus drop off the #1 spot It's time to riot.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2520
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 04:28:25 -
[2076] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors? It's in this month's Accounts Receivable statement. Already planned for next month after I vote for Xenuria.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
Enki Martok
DragonForge Industries The Southern Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 20:40:45 -
[2077] - Quote
Julien Brellier wrote:Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.
A sad day.
Definitely!!! |
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
17
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 23:23:21 -
[2078] - Quote
Get us back The Sp loss/winning mechanics with The Sp thievering robbering smuggling mechanics: in Game ! Face to face! Player vs Player! |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
108
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 12:29:07 -
[2079] - Quote
So how can you class eve now the skill gate has been removed.
Previously it did not matter how wealthy you were in game or real life and the bazaar offered certain buyer beware concerns to gaining a character worked on by a previous owner.
We have the standard ( what now seems like f2p ) version that at best you can accumulate 2700 ph and generally work the markets / pvp / pve / mine - In for the long haul True EvE style.
Pay CCP subscription
OR
Pay CCP - Extractors Pay plex - aurum - Extractors Pay plex - aurum - skins Pay plex- Injectors - skill points - accelerated toon Pay plex - Isk - Ships Pay plex - Isk - Modules Pay plex - Isk - ????
and
Pay CCP subscription
Its definitely pay 2 something ....... laugh there bollox off all the way to the bank. |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
824
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 14:05:09 -
[2080] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/11/eve-online-player-buys-nearly-7000-worth-of-skill-injectors/ Success! http://eveboard.com/pilot/IronBank
Here it is folks - Eves onlines 1st ever 100% skill trained character 473,344,000 SP
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17486
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 14:44:44 -
[2081] - Quote
On the bright side, that's ~900M skillpoints permanently destroyed.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
825
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 15:12:06 -
[2082] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:On the bright side, that's ~900M skillpoints permanently destroyed. Is that a bright side though?
I'm on the fence when it comes to removing SP from the game other than via EULA breaches (Banned accounts).
At 1.2 trillion isk, I don't think this is likely to start a trend
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2523
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 16:03:01 -
[2083] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:...On the bright side, that's ~900M skillpoints permanently destroyed. The SP farms are being nurtured, it will take awhile for them to start delivering their fruit.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2016.02.14 22:45:54 -
[2084] - Quote
I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.
After watching what Ironbank did was the final nail in this games coffin for me and decided to end this one too, good luck all have fun |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2540
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 14:37:27 -
[2085] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:...of course someone who played way much less and invested way less time + effort should not get there. It is not about tenure it is about customers relations. People can buy high sp chars if they need them, they can even buy sp now, but they should never ever be provided option to take someone 13 years of loyalty. With this change, CCP send wrong message to the players. ... I agree.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9877
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:47:36 -
[2086] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:...of course someone who played way much less and invested way less time + effort should not get there. It is not about tenure it is about customers relations. People can buy high sp chars if they need them, they can even buy sp now, but they should never ever be provided option to take someone 13 years of loyalty. With this change, CCP send wrong message to the players. ... I agree. I don't.
If there was loyalty in the sense of what you just quoted, there would be no need for this thread as all the 'loyal' players would not be gutting their 13 year old characters en mas for something as easy to acquire as ISKies.
Every one is blaming the victims here. It's not the people buying SP, it's the people selling it. And the people selling it are by definition, vets.
It always comes back to it being the veterans doing the actual screwing up of things in this game, doesn't it?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33344
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:57:21 -
[2087] - Quote
Ironbank should have kept going with more unallocated SP for the sake of future proofing.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1039
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 22:16:55 -
[2088] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:So how can you class eve now the skill gate has been removed.
Previously it did not matter how wealthy you were in game or real life and the bazaar offered certain buyer beware concerns to gaining a character worked on by a previous owner.
We have the standard ( what now seems like f2p ) version that at best you can accumulate 2700 ph and generally work the markets / pvp / pve / mine - In for the long haul True EvE style.
Pay CCP subscription
OR
Pay CCP - Extractors Pay plex - aurum - Extractors Pay plex - aurum - skins Pay plex- Injectors - skill points - accelerated toon Pay plex - Isk - Ships Pay plex - Isk - Modules Pay plex - Isk - ????
and
Pay CCP subscription
Its definitely pay 2 something ....... laugh there bollox off all the way to the bank.
You forgot pay isk for Aurum tokens. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 23:06:05 -
[2089] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:...of course someone who played way much less and invested way less time + effort should not get there. It is not about tenure it is about customers relations. People can buy high sp chars if they need them, they can even buy sp now, but they should never ever be provided option to take someone 13 years of loyalty. With this change, CCP send wrong message to the players. ... I agree. I don't. If there was loyalty in the sense of what you just quoted, there would be no need for this thread as all the 'loyal' players would not be gutting their 13 year old characters en mas for something as easy to acquire as ISKies. Every one is blaming the victims here. It's not the people buying SP, it's the people selling it. And the people selling it are by definition, vets. It always comes back to it being the veterans doing the actual screwing up of things in this game, doesn't it? Mr Epeen No. As previously stated its human nature to seek out and try to find the easiest way to do something, CCP have handed it to them on a plate. If it wasn't implemented then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
With the pve being flimsy at best in the game its reliant on it's pvp, without players there is no pvp. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1923
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 23:43:56 -
[2090] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:...of course someone who played way much less and invested way less time + effort should not get there. It is not about tenure it is about customers relations. People can buy high sp chars if they need them, they can even buy sp now, but they should never ever be provided option to take someone 13 years of loyalty. With this change, CCP send wrong message to the players. ... I agree. I don't. If there was loyalty in the sense of what you just quoted, there would be no need for this thread as all the 'loyal' players would not be gutting their 13 year old characters en mas for something as easy to acquire as ISKies. Every one is blaming the victims here. It's not the people buying SP, it's the people selling it. And the people selling it are by definition, vets. It always comes back to it being the veterans doing the actual screwing up of things in this game, doesn't it? Mr Epeen No. As previously stated its human nature to seek out and try to find the easiest way to do something, CCP have handed it to them on a plate. If it wasn't implemented then we wouldn't be having this discussion. With the pve being flimsy at best in the game its reliant on it's pvp, without players there is no pvp. A value isn't a value when it's a mandate. Only when that "loyalty" can be traded can we really see what it's worth. And apparently it's worth ~300mill per optimal week. All the talk of ease and human nature only highlights the minimal worth of SP even for those who have demonstrated their "loyalty" to the game.
But it's still always someone else' fault. When given options we can't and apparently refuse to collectively acknowledge our own individual agency. |
|
Chrysa Narfatu
Joint Shipbuilding Industries Ltd
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 02:32:33 -
[2091] - Quote
***Took a lot of time editing this one so it may have salt, tears or salty tears out of the picture :)***
Well, for better or worse, Skill Extractors/Injectors have been implemented. It will be interesting to see how the scales of power will look like at the end of this month - in all possible notions.
One of the wow factors that hooked me into the game was the new player first contact experience, which even before Trinity was a marvel to behold, in my eyes at least. This included a wonderful music score, amazing visuals, starting out in a deadspace training complex and actually having Aura talking to you GÇô the very first time I saw a tutorial speaking to the player GÇô not many MMO games could boast that feature at the time, sadly gone now. Of course, I knew what I was roughly getting into: a game that requires actual brainpower, painful trial and error and time investment, as the intro stressed upon its first launch.
Seems that joining EvE back in whenever-I-joined was a bad idea, but no one can glance into the future. I'd saved myself a lot of time getting to the SP total I have for all of my 3 main account Characters had I joined from this point onwards. And no - the Bazaar is only good for a particular type of gamer - not my style of play.
Regardless of whatever goals CCP seems to pursue, I don't mind the time-grinding nor will I lament over its (stated or implied) degeneration. Since I never was thirsty for fame or glory, I will also skip the in-game politics section, thank you very much. One of the many things that kept me going in this game for so long was the notion of Democracy in it - beginning with the introduction of the so much venerated (or hated) CSM and the micro and macro-politics this meant.
CCP made a promise to listen to us players. I believe that the EvE Monument was the peak of it. Having followed this thread as far as I could, considering that I have not much spare time to invest in the game and the out of game-related activities as I used to, I have come to the personal conclusion that we are facing a Deficit in this respect. Of course I will try reviewing the CSM minutes for the past year to see if this implementation was gauged (pardon my expressed ignorance on this subject and correct me if I am wrong), but I get the feeling that this topic was not discussed in session.
Of course, I think that the whole problem simply boils down to the game needing to be competitive: CCP promised frequent new features so they must deliver, trying to stay one step ahead of the storm of free to play (and pay to win) MMOs out there. I think it best to slow down on the expansions, so that everyone gets a go to express their opinion, mechanics are better thought out and discussed etc., instead of blindly rushing to keep deadlines and as a result throw trinkets around to keep the easily bored player engaged for a few more months. I donGÇÖt mind waiting for expansions, as long as the changes introduced are actually improving the game because this universe had (in its initial conception) two ever-present keywords: patience and perseverance.
Going forward, I'd make a point of instead of getting the feel from post forums or any other indirect or non-transparent methods of gauging player opinions, direct polling/voting should be implemented, especially for features that can offset the game mechanics. Creating an in-game money and time siphon with real money involved yet again with a direct impact on the player base is a double edged sword (please ponder on this phrase, youGÇÖll see what I mean) and does not feel like a good way forward. Direct polling should really be easy to deploy, and would ensure transparency and player input maximization with fractional costs - after all, the loyal player base is not what it used to be and may be bound to change in the near future.
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read through this (rather) ponderous post.
"The Voice of Reason"
-- Tau Ethereal
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 07:21:51 -
[2092] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:...of course someone who played way much less and invested way less time + effort should not get there. It is not about tenure it is about customers relations. People can buy high sp chars if they need them, they can even buy sp now, but they should never ever be provided option to take someone 13 years of loyalty. With this change, CCP send wrong message to the players. ... I agree. I don't. If there was loyalty in the sense of what you just quoted, there would be no need for this thread as all the 'loyal' players would not be gutting their 13 year old characters en mas for something as easy to acquire as ISKies. Every one is blaming the victims here. It's not the people buying SP, it's the people selling it. And the people selling it are by definition, vets. It always comes back to it being the veterans doing the actual screwing up of things in this game, doesn't it? Mr Epeen No. As previously stated its human nature to seek out and try to find the easiest way to do something, CCP have handed it to them on a plate. If it wasn't implemented then we wouldn't be having this discussion. With the pve being flimsy at best in the game its reliant on it's pvp, without players there is no pvp. A value isn't a value when it's a mandate. Only when that "loyalty" can be traded can we really see what it's worth. And apparently it's worth ~300mill per optimal week. All the talk of ease and human nature only highlights the minimal worth of SP even for those who have demonstrated their "loyalty" to the game. But it's still always someone else' fault. When given options we can't and apparently refuse to collectively acknowledge our own individual agency. What ? Where were the expectations that this was the norm, it was released as a blog and then nothing not a word for a few months then they released the second one saying they were going ahead with it. Certainly not on general consensus was it adopted, but forced upon. Loyalty is not there to be traded - maybe that's why you seem to struggle with this. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1926
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 08:07:55 -
[2093] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:What ? Where were the expectations that this was the norm, it was released as a blog and then nothing not a word for a few months then they released the second one saying they were going ahead with it. Certainly not on general consensus was it adopted, but forced upon. Loyalty is not there to be traded - maybe that's why you seem to struggle with this. The only thing forced upon anyone is the availability of the mechanic that determined SP wouldn't need to be tied exclusively to a character. The reality of that was and is in our hands though. We're the ones selling the SP, not CCP. All the excuses about human nature don't change that.
If that's what you consider loyalty, SP, then the definition was shallow and second it was entirely worth selling to any who saw fit to do so. As stated, that "loyalty" is free to be traded and your fellow players seem eager to do so. No hands were forced, so no excuses can be made. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 10:00:13 -
[2094] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:What ? Where were the expectations that this was the norm, it was released as a blog and then nothing not a word for a few months then they released the second one saying they were going ahead with it. Certainly not on general consensus was it adopted, but forced upon. Loyalty is not there to be traded - maybe that's why you seem to struggle with this. The only thing forced upon anyone is the availability of the mechanic that determined SP wouldn't need to be tied exclusively to a character. The reality of that was and is in our hands though. We're the ones selling the SP, not CCP. All the excuses about human nature don't change that. If that's what you consider loyalty, SP, then the definition was shallow and second it was entirely worth selling to any who saw fit to do so. As stated, that "loyalty" is free to be traded and your fellow players seem eager to do so. No hands were forced, so no excuses can be made. Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this it was just pushed through ergo it was forced on us after some 13 years of preaching that they would never alter said system. Of course now implemented people are going to fully use and abuse it as we've seen. Loyalty is earned over time - hard to get and very easily lost, and certainly not a tradeable commodity something those tools and you don't seem to grasp, i now see why Don feels like he's banging his head against a brick wall speaking to you. |
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 17:15:53 -
[2095] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:What ? Where were the expectations that this was the norm, it was released as a blog and then nothing not a word for a few months then they released the second one saying they were going ahead with it. Certainly not on general consensus was it adopted, but forced upon. Loyalty is not there to be traded - maybe that's why you seem to struggle with this. The only thing forced upon anyone is the availability of the mechanic that determined SP wouldn't need to be tied exclusively to a character. The reality of that was and is in our hands though. We're the ones selling the SP, not CCP. All the excuses about human nature don't change that. If that's what you consider loyalty, SP, then the definition was shallow and second it was entirely worth selling to any who saw fit to do so. As stated, that "loyalty" is free to be traded and your fellow players seem eager to do so. No hands were forced, so no excuses can be made. Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this it was just pushed through ergo it was forced on us after some 13 years of preaching that they would never alter said system. Of course now implemented people are going to fully use and abuse it as we've seen. Loyalty is earned over time - hard to get and very easily lost, and certainly not a tradeable commodity something those tools and you don't seem to grasp, i now see why Don feels like he's banging his head against a brick wall speaking to you.
whaaaaaat?????
SP comes from those who have the surplus, accumulated trough time or the bazar. There is a difference between having options and being forced to do something. Even if progressions you think is now tied to buying SP, it starts with the decision of another player to extract in the first place, and that is certainly not forced on anyone.
I guess you could go and experiment, see if you can tackle someone in low-sec and make them extract skill points, let me know how that goes.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1930
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 19:02:35 -
[2096] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this Actually they did, not in the introduction of the mechanic, but in it's apparent success. We could have easily stifled that by simply NOT EXTRACTING OUR SP. So I guess it's bullshit now to point to an act people are doing voluntarily because it doesn't conform to the latest series of objections?
That's great and all that you think your opinion gets to override what people are actually doing with the feature. That said it's also pretty arrogant to believing you're acting as some kind of spokesperson for those who don't know better or can't make the informed decision on their own about what they're doing.
It can't be because there is a lack of actual compromise of principle or betrayal, it has to be simply seeking ease that people just can't resist, right? Everyone is a victim and you're their advocate but I'm the self righteous one here. Right.
Berrice Silf wrote:it was just pushed through ergo it was forced on us after some 13 years of preaching that they would never alter said system. When and where? I haven't seen it but I also can't say I've paid complete attention to every communication presented by CCP, so I'll simple ask when and where was this promise made regarding training and SP?
Berrice Silf wrote: Of course now implemented people are going to fully use and abuse it as we've seen. Loyalty is earned over time - hard to get and very easily lost, and certainly not a tradeable commodity something those tools and you don't seem to grasp, i now see why Don feels like he's banging his head against a brick wall speaking to you. Good thing there is no potential for abuse as the uses we've seen from the mild to the extreme are exactly what the system was built for.
Yes, that even includes ironbank.
And it's specifically because the skill system is built the way it is capping how far SP helps with any given ship. There is no abuse.
And no, when you equate loyalty to SP as Don Zola did you aren't talking about actual loyalty, you're talking about bittervet "loyalty": the bleating of entitlement to their SP lead for having been here for a while. Because that's what this is all really about. Can't let the noobs have more SP because it makes the vets feel bad. It "betrays" them to have someone on their level in SP total without being here as long.
And I'm sure you'll want to pitch another fit about me bringing up tenure, but since that's all you do rather than even try to explain why that and SP must be linked for anything other than selfish grandstanding that condemnation lacks any real bite now. |
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 19:33:47 -
[2097] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this Actually they did, not in the introduction of the mechanic, but in it's apparent success. We could have easily stifled that by simply NOT EXTRACTING OUR SP. So I guess it's bullshit now to point to an act people are doing voluntarily because it doesn't conform to the latest series of objections?
That is not entirely correct. You forget that this is EVE, and any one person MUST presume that any next person will use any and all means provided to him. It is the nature of the game to use this, even if it destroys the game.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1930
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 19:41:00 -
[2098] - Quote
Ed Bever wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this Actually they did, not in the introduction of the mechanic, but in it's apparent success. We could have easily stifled that by simply NOT EXTRACTING OUR SP. So I guess it's bullshit now to point to an act people are doing voluntarily because it doesn't conform to the latest series of objections? That is not entirely correct. You forget that this is EVE, and any one person MUST presume that any next person will use any and all means provided to him. It is the nature of the game to use this, even if it destroys the game. That view is actually more problematic from the seller's standpoint because there was already a mechanic which did the same thing in providing isk: PLEX.
So there was already an out for that demand without any compromise. Buyers are different, but they are enabled by sellers.
Edit: It's interesting to invoke "This is Eve" as a reason for participation when the objection this stemmed from was based in the notion of how Un-Eve this was and how the entire idea breaks an eve fundamental concept. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 20:28:46 -
[2099] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ed Bever wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this Actually they did, not in the introduction of the mechanic, but in it's apparent success. We could have easily stifled that by simply NOT EXTRACTING OUR SP. So I guess it's bullshit now to point to an act people are doing voluntarily because it doesn't conform to the latest series of objections? That is not entirely correct. You forget that this is EVE, and any one person MUST presume that any next person will use any and all means provided to him. It is the nature of the game to use this, even if it destroys the game. That view is actually more problematic from the seller's standpoint because there was already a mechanic which did the same thing in providing isk: PLEX. So there was already an out for that demand without any compromise. Buyers are different, but they are enabled by sellers. Edit: It's interesting to invoke "This is Eve" as a reason for participation when the objection this stemmed from was based in the notion of how Un-Eve this was and how the entire idea breaks an eve fundamental concept. our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time So every single aspect of eve is now monetized, that statement means nothing he even had a lackey write it. He has no integrity neither does CCP as a whole. since the original crew have all but departed your left with the crap to keep on eking out every single penny they can and try to sell it as what everyone wanted.
Even if 99% of the player base refused to use it but the 1% did the whole game now is based around real world transactions to progress, what ever way you paint it the original eve is over now. All this will draw to it is wallet warriors and maybe some ex trialer come to see what its about. There is nothing to work towards anymore, time is irrelevant when you can pay to jump into anything buy anything basically do anything its like being given the /giveall command so long as you get your CC out.
When you don't have to do anything to get everything what is the point of even starting. Remember the old cartoon about eve's learning curve guy looking up a cliff, the new joke one now is sitting in a titan waving a credit card with him shouting 1 day old. The game has gone from having the reputation of being the harshest pvp game out there to flexing a card gets you anything and you'll be lucky to bump into a player out of the main hubs. In such a short space of time its gone from having a good rep for being a hard game to master to almost jokes about how lame its become.
General consensus carries weight and what's being written in forums in alot of places now is that its just gone p2w all stemming from ironbanks stunt. |
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 20:44:14 -
[2100] - Quote
Another idea that may be worth thinking about, in this context: The introduction of Citadels, the removal of medical clone upgrades, the introduction of Multiple Character Training Certificates, now the skill injectors, all contribute to one and the same thing, at least in the long term: a strong decrease in the need for multiple accounts. CCP, being a corperation which still seeks (and has to seek) ways to make more money, lowers the incentive for subscriptions to be paid.
Am i the only one seeing a potential problem here? |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6944
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 21:25:54 -
[2101] - Quote
This is definitely eve. The responses are as expected, both in the market and in the forums.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 21:37:11 -
[2102] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:This is definitely eve. The responses are as expected, both in the market and in the forums.
The same can be said about the entities that post the responses, i suppose. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1930
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 21:50:53 -
[2103] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time So every single aspect of eve is now monetized, that statement means nothing he even had a lackey write it. He has no integrity neither does CCP as a whole. since the original crew have all but departed your left with the crap to keep on eking out every single penny they can and try to sell it as what everyone wanted. Allow me to ask then, back when those words were uttered:
Did you question their intent with PLEX and the Bazaar and how they violate the letter of the written promise at the same moment and even before and clarify what was meant? Did you notice from PLEX, the Bazaar, Power of 2 promotions and later MCTCs that they were never shy about selling time or training and further allowing us to trade it? Did you notice how that effective monetization of SP already existed? Did you not notice that those "vanity items" were still an effective vector for isk? Did you think that the leap from forum sold GTCs to PLEX would never possibly be replicated in any form with the Bazaar and SP?
I ask because for someone who speaks of integrity, it seems you're doing so with an idealistic and less than real view of the past. One where CCP didn't promote and profit from RMT and character trades as a means to bypass isk earning and training. One where they weren't doing it while making promises that according to you would have prevented it. We in our relative silence effectively confirmed that selling time between each other was fine. They just took our word on it.
Now you're are trying to put the genie back in the bottle and pretend this is some new sort of evil. It isn't, it's admittedly less limited to those specifically in the know about it, but I find that higher accessibility preferable to more exclusive advantages.
Berrice Silf wrote:Even if 99% of the player base refused to use it but the 1% did the whole game now is based around real world transactions to progress, what ever way you paint it the original eve is over now. All this will draw to it is wallet warriors and maybe some ex trialer come to see what its about. There is nothing to work towards anymore, time is irrelevant when you can pay to jump into anything buy anything basically do anything its like being given the /giveall command so long as you get your CC out.
When you don't have to do anything to get everything what is the point of even starting. Remember the old cartoon about eve's learning curve guy looking up a cliff, the new joke one now is sitting in a titan waving a credit card with him shouting 1 day old. The game has gone from having the reputation of being the harshest pvp game out there to flexing a card gets you anything and you'll be lucky to bump into a player out of the main hubs. In such a short space of time its gone from having a good rep for being a hard game to master to almost jokes about how lame its become.
General consensus carries weight and what's being written in forums in alot of places now is that its just gone p2w all stemming from ironbanks stunt. We were always based around real world transactions. That's what subs are regardless of whether the end user partook in that step. And "based around" is entirely deceptive even in the sense you mean it since all SP is sourced the same way it always has been, making progress based on and dependent upon traditional skill training.
As for what the point is? Leaving aside the fact that the "shortcuts" only work as a direct result of other players finding a point, as has always been the case, isn't the point to determine that point yourself? No one specifically themselves needs to earn isk so long as someone else who buys PLEX is still doing it, but enough people still earn their isk AND demand PLEX to raise and hold the price at and now slightly above 1.2B.
What's funny about the rep though, is that it's no more true than it ever was, but with individuals like yourself regurgitating the same talking points it's no wonder it's the belief being spread. Fact is the perception is controllable most by players and when they go out of their way to whine about everything that's the perception that the outside world sticks with for lack of knowing enough to determine for themselves. The story largely gets interpreted as "CCP sells SP" but when I actually explain it to non-players they go from thinking "money grab" to "that's pretty clever" with some understanding of the skill system and how the origin of SP is unchanged.
For those who know, ironbank is nothing more than a non-gameplay affecting publicity stunt. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1930
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 21:59:06 -
[2104] - Quote
Ed Bever wrote:Another idea that may be worth thinking about, in this context: The introduction of Citadels, the removal of medical clone upgrades, the introduction of Multiple Character Training Certificates, now the skill injectors, all contribute to one and the same thing, at least in the long term: a strong decrease in the need for multiple accounts. CCP, being a corperation which still seeks (and has to seek) ways to make more money, lowers the incentive for subscriptions to be paid.
Am i the only one seeing a potential problem here? Clone upgrades and citadels really don't have a direct effect on subs.
MCTCs and injectors are all the cost of a PLEX based sub (actually more in the case of the latter) with a fraction of the benefits.
Basically CCP is finding ways to entice single sub players to pay or entice others to pay multi-sub levels of money.
The irony is that unless you're already making a lot of isk for PLEXing accounts and are fine with that, the price point of the alternatives makes having multiple accounts look attractive for the benefit. At least in my opinion.
|
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 22:11:53 -
[2105] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Clone upgrades and citadels really don't have a direct effect on subs.
MCTCs and injectors are all the cost of a PLEX based sub (actually more in the case of the latter) with a fraction of the benefits.
Basically CCP is finding ways to entice single sub players to pay or entice others to pay multi-sub levels of money.
The irony is that unless you're already making a lot of isk for PLEXing accounts and are fine with that, the price point of the alternatives makes having multiple accounts look attractive for the benefit. At least in my opinion.
I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way. Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion). |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1931
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 22:19:35 -
[2106] - Quote
Ed Bever wrote:I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way. So on a subset of players who were willing to spread training between characters to reduce clone fees but didn't have the slots to do so this may have increased subs? Possible, but not a likely driver. Hundreds of millions per month plus time training redundancies to avoid tens of millions on pod loss isn't smart math. Paying the account is cash removes the in game cost, but again, to reduce some relatively trivial fees? I can't see how the practice was anything more than extremely rare.
Ed Bever wrote:Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion). That's why people had holding alts for supers, which actually does contribute to your point, but as above, not in considerable numbers. |
Ed Bever
Evolution Northern Coalition.
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 22:28:05 -
[2107] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Ed Bever wrote:I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way. So on a subset of players who were willing to spread training between characters to reduce clone fees but didn't have the slots to do so this may have increased subs? Possible, but not a likely driver. Hundreds of millions per month plus time training redundancies to avoid tens of millions on pod loss isn't smart math. Paying the account is cash removes the in game cost, but again, to reduce some relatively trivial fees? I can't see how the practice was anything more than extremely rare. Ed Bever wrote:Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion). That's why people had holding alts for supers, which actually does contribute to your point, but as above, not in considerable numbers.
It is true that each inividual point by itself does not contribute a whole lot to this effect. Subscriptions have been in decline for a while now, and i would have expected to see changes that, in the long term would increase subscriptions. It makes me sad to, instead, see changes that would increase CCP's revenue for a short period of time, only. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1932
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 23:05:08 -
[2108] - Quote
Ed Bever wrote:It is true that each inividual point by itself does not contribute a whole lot to this effect. Subscriptions have been in decline for a while now, and i would have expected to see changes that, in the long term would increase subscriptions. It makes me sad to, instead, see changes that would increase CCP's revenue for a short period of time, only. Not sure that last characterization is fair. It's not really "instead" when the game is going through some big changes for the very reasons of making things more engaging.
Also PCU hasn't really signaled a decline for a while now so much as stagnation. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
148
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 10:23:02 -
[2109] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:So how can you class eve now the skill gate has been removed.
Previously it did not matter how wealthy you were in game or real life and the bazaar offered certain buyer beware concerns to gaining a character worked on by a previous owner.
We have the standard ( what now seems like f2p ) version that at best you can accumulate 2700 ph and generally work the markets / pvp / pve / mine - In for the long haul True EvE style.
Pay CCP subscription
OR
Pay CCP - Extractors Pay plex - aurum - Extractors Pay plex - aurum - skins Pay plex- Injectors - skill points - accelerated toon Pay plex - Isk - Ships Pay plex - Isk - Modules Pay plex - Isk - ????
and
Pay CCP subscription
Its definitely pay 2 something ....... laugh there bollox off all the way to the bank. PvE in EVE is ... underwhelming. Skill training is slow. Its Pay 2 Skip Boring Grind. A classic F2P monetization strategy. In a subscription game. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
123
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 10:47:32 -
[2110] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Allow me to ask then, back when those words were uttered:
Did you question their intent with PLEX and the Bazaar and how they violate the letter of the written promise at the same moment and even before and clarify what was meant? Did you notice from PLEX, the Bazaar, Power of 2 promotions and later MCTCs that they were never shy about selling time or training and further allowing us to trade it? Did you notice how that effective monetization of SP already existed? Did you not notice that those "vanity items" were still an effective vector for isk? Did you think that the leap from forum sold GTCs to PLEX would never possibly be replicated in any form with the Bazaar and SP?
I ask because for someone who speaks of integrity, it seems you're doing so with an idealistic and less than real view of the past. One where CCP didn't promote and profit from RMT and character trades as a means to bypass isk earning and training. One where they weren't doing it while making promises that according to you would have prevented it. We in our relative silence effectively confirmed that selling time between each other was fine. They just took our word on it.
Now you're are trying to put the genie back in the bottle and pretend this is some new sort of evil. It isn't, it's admittedly less limited to those specifically in the know about it, but I find that higher accessibility preferable to more exclusive advantages.. All that basic waffle above is irrelevant as all was introduced way before that statement helmar made.
Ive been playing since end of december 2004 - The bazaar was already in full swing, same as selling GTC's for isk also. The plex didnt hit until 2009 i think, still 3 years before that statement was made - Plex was a grey area but i understood the need for alot of people and also the RMT ramifications it helped stem. None of the above gave anyone the ability to add time to an individual character from multiple sources either. Vanity items are just that they have no impact on anything in game you either want them or dont.
MCTC i've always found useless to be honest, what was the point of having 2 / 3 characters on one account that you can only use 1 at a time, now though its different as you can fully utilize the farming of skill points from each and every spare slot.
There is not legal RMT and illegal RMT either, You have the ToS laid out in the EULA you either abide by the rules set out in said document or you break them by some form of RMT.
Since the statement was made though we have now had this released, pretty much made a mockery of CCP / helmar / the game itself. The skill point is at the very core of the game enabling all aspects of play and you can buy it for cash, it has gone against everything that was held in the highest regard for the game - time investment.
Im not trying to put any genie back either, that boat sailed as soon as this hit, your trying to gloss it as accessibility which is just BS, It's nothing but pure greed. If it was in anyway to help the game they wouldnt have been the price they are and certainly do not help the average new joe. Don't you remember this yet your still a CCP suckass :
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Ty, ive stayed quiet but the price ..... I told you so springs to mind Pure greedy bastards. Now that we have it yes, there's nothing really to justify the price at least in my opinion. You were correct.
|
|
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
831
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 11:22:58 -
[2111] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.
Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.
At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ???? February 17, the 9th was only a prelude. Having more money than the next guy
Can you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33371
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 11:38:43 -
[2112] - Quote
I want to see the end of the NES sale on extractor packs.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2568
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 13:23:16 -
[2113] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:It always comes back to it being the veterans doing the actual screwing up of things in this game, doesn't it? Mr Epeen Which veterans are you talking about? All of them? Perhaps you mean the ones that sit down with their time and teach new players how to play the game? The one that make tutorials? The ones that help for free and let new players go on their merry way to find their fun in the game?
Do you think it sounds like those veterans?
Perhaps you mean the veterans that farm new players to pad their killboards? Now, those sort of veterans, yes, I have seen quite a few of them. They tend to be cold, calculating and squeeze everything out of everywhere. Strangely enough they also have a lot of alts and they wouldn't care about their creations. Bottom lines matter and what ever goal they have set themselves.
Try using a teaspoon rather than a shovel when you apply the tar, please.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3294
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 13:42:30 -
[2114] - Quote
I never really think of myself as a vet, but having started in early 2007, I suppose I am.
I would never buy or sell skill points as I believe it is bad for the game overall.
I do, some of the time, try to help new players in any way I can, including occasionally giving isk to new players (10m or so) and suggesting sensible ways they can spend it.
Mostly, I try to encourage new players to stick with the game and to try everything at least once to find out what suits them as a play style.
When I started, the then 'vet' players used to laugh at me for mining in an Itty 3, but they also gave me invaluable advice on the mechanics of the game.
Not all vets are bitter.
This is not a signature.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 13:47:43 -
[2115] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.
Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.
At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ???? February 17, the 9th was only a prelude. Having more money than the next guyCan you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,.
This just gets better all the time, remember the original blog from Rise CCP Rise wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Now we have there new advert saying : Skill Extractors. Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. These skillpoints are loaded into a Skill Injector which can then be sold or traded to other players on the in-game marketplace.
So what actually is it, you don't want to be able to respec easily or you can as long as it involves the trusty flexible friend. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2070
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 14:14:07 -
[2116] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.
Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.
At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ???? February 17, the 9th was only a prelude. Having more money than the next guyCan you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,. This just gets better all the time, remember the original blog from Rise CCP Rise wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Now we have there new advert saying : Skill Extractors.Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. These skillpoints are loaded into a Skill Injector which can then be sold or traded to other players on the in-game marketplace. So what actually is it, you don't want to be able to respec easily or you can as long as it involves the trusty flexible friend.
Next will be pre-packed skills in the injectors at the required levels to 'fly your dream ship'...just like the new advert says...
Natural extension of this of course is saying 'Meh! Why have skills at all, just let people buy the ships straight off and fly them.' |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 14:51:25 -
[2117] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Next will be pre-packed skills in the injectors at the required levels to 'fly your dream ship'...just like the new advert says...
Natural extension of this of course is saying 'Meh! Why have skills at all, just let people buy the ships straight off and fly them.' Does kind of make you wonder if the dev's - marketing - customer support talk to each other.
Dev's - well if we try to make it sound like its for the good of X it will lessen the burden on us for Y
Marketing - Its my precious .... i want all the money ..... give give give precious money.
Customer Support - Oh crap here we go again !!!
Red Faces all round. Please Ty drop a wisdom bomb on this one |
Bones Outten
Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs
14
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 15:32:27 -
[2118] - Quote
I have run out of reasons to login to Eve.
Oh yes, I need a way to buy NPC Corp standings so I can access any mission as anytime, then I can stay out :D
BTW: Skill injectors & SP trading have just devalued the reason most of us have invested thousands of pounds & decades of our lives. We could have just waited & bought what we have :S
Scribbles calculations 4 accounts 10+ years subscription + a few PLEX here & there = I could have had 2 decent titan pilots & cash left over, no more need to subscribe Yippee!
Goes to log into Elite Dangerous or another MMO ready to **** over their Beta/long term players. |
Captain IQ
Innocent Traders Ltd
81
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 15:42:36 -
[2119] - Quote
Don't worry Bones, I've heard this is in development:
Introducing
Devflight
That's right for a small consideration of AUR you could hire your very own Dev to actually fly your ship for you!
Imagine being able to sit spinning in your station doing absolutely nothing? That's right, we've made things even easier, thanks to the wonder of us, the clever people at CCP, it's all being done for you. Now with all that spare time you could be with your kids instead or take the dog for a walk or maybe play a completely different game all together.
Go get your credit card now!
DevMiner- 10,000 Aur DevMiner Booster Bro-5,000 Aur DevPVP-10,000 Aur DevPVP Repper-5,000 Aur DevAlliance Leader-15,000 Aur DevLogin/Logoff - That's right we'll even log you in and out of the game. -30,000 Aur
Special Discounts*
Buy 5 Devs and make your own leet corp (with bonus apparel)! Buy 10 Devs and get your own game studio!
Now you don't even have to waste your time playing Eve, just pay somebody else to play it for you, it really couldn't be simpler.
*Only applies if you're not actually your own credit card. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2570
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 16:22:57 -
[2120] - Quote
NOW! You can get a bot to play for you! (For a small daily AUR fee) It will be much like watching Twitch, however (and here is the kicker!) you can take over and control it at any point!
Feel you are losing fights? Pay for a super skilled bot today!
Is your bot still losing? Pump more SP into it with our new offer on Skill Injectors!
Is your bot still losing? Buy a hardwire set and a ship with PWN them all fit!
PWN them n00bz!!1! Conquering EVE is as close as your wallet!!!
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
|
Vabanaz Arjar
Damned Nebula Privateers
31
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 17:56:25 -
[2121] - Quote
Nah, you guys are wrong. The next thing they come up with wil be removal of attributes. By setting the fixed amout of skillpoints one can get per month to a value lower than you can get now (with remaps and +5 Imps) they will increase the demand of Plex because everything will take longer (one can of course choose to buy injectors to shorten the time). Of course they will look for a nice cover story for this one, too. So noone will notice... Oh, wait!
who pulls the strings?
|
Mishra San
Spaceships Anonymous
39
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 18:47:58 -
[2122] - Quote
I just used skill injectors on a nice hew pair of PI whores, but I failed to realize beforehand that by doing so I'd win the game.
Now that I've won the game, I have nothing else left to do..these injectors should come with a warning label..
sending virtual hug, virtual hug sent!
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3294
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 18:52:00 -
[2123] - Quote
This really will be a case of CCP saying, 'watch what they do, not what they say'
By this, I mean that even though some of us are not happy with cash for skills and indeed some may quit, CCP will simply wait to see if cash for skills bring in more money than they lose in subscription fees.
It is all about the dollar...
This is not a signature.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
3294
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 18:54:54 -
[2124] - Quote
Mishra San wrote:I just used skill injectors on a nice hew pair of PI whores, but I failed to realize beforehand that by doing so I'd win the game.
Now that I've won the game, I have nothing else left to do..these injectors should come with a warning label..
Lordy...once again, no is claiming that cash for skills means that one can win at Eve as there is no win.
BUT, cash for skills is a way for those with more disposable real life money to gain an advantage over those who cannot afford or have no desire to avail themselves of cash for skills.
This is not a signature.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
132
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:33:13 -
[2125] - Quote
Vabanaz Arjar wrote:Nah, you guys are wrong. The next thing they come up with wil be removal of attributes. By setting the fixed amout of skillpoints one can get per month to a value lower than you can get now (with remaps and +5 Imps) they will increase the demand of Plex because everything will take longer (one can of course choose to buy injectors to shorten the time). Of course they will look for a nice cover story for this one, too. So noone will notice... Oh, wait! Even the kissass brigade would kick off if it was lower than actual training times now, unless your referring to a f2p model with a subs bonus's package
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:34:42 -
[2126] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:All that basic waffle above is irrelevant as all was introduced way before that statement helmar made... So a promise broken before it was made is somehow a promise you still believe? A promise no one takes steps towards keeping as you would have it interpreted is one you chose to value?
Please tell me I'm wrong here because you're just sounding painfully naive about how things tolerated in the past could shape how CCP views it's promises in the future. And without doubt that's exactly what happened here.
Berrice Silf wrote:MCTC i've always found useless to be honest, what was the point of having 2 / 3 characters on one account that you can only use 1 at a time, now though its different as you can fully utilize the farming of skill points from each and every spare slot. So you're now arguing the point of it not being personally attractive and thus is a non issue? Or was this just to state your opinion on them while realizing it has no bearing on the very real advantage they bring even as a NES item.
Berrice Silf wrote:There is not legal RMT and illegal RMT either, You have the ToS laid out in the EULA you either abide by the rules set out in said document or you break them by some form of RMT. Wrong, PLEX is RMT. Selling NES goods in game is RMT. Both are legal under the EULA. I'm not sure whether it's a lack of competence or integrity that has you eating the BS that it's not (which makes your later jab really ironic, especially when around the first unholy rage RMT ban campaign the directly equated the 2 in their ads for PLEX, detailing that you could buy isk without getting banned), or whether it's simply a matter of being incapable of being critical of things that were here in some form before you were since that somehow renders them beyond criticism question.
Berrice Silf wrote:Since the statement was made though we have now had this released, pretty much made a mockery of CCP / helmar / the game itself. The skill point is at the very core of the game enabling all aspects of play and you can buy it for cash, it has gone against everything that was held in the highest regard for the game - time investment.
I'm not trying to put any genie back either, that boat sailed as soon as this hit, your trying to gloss it as accessibility which is just BS, It's nothing but pure greed. If it was in anyway to help the game they wouldnt have been the price they are and certainly do not help the average new joe. Don't you remember this yet your still a CCP suckass : You were right about the price prediction, I conceded that, but that doesn't change much about the rest of the idea and its uses of functions. And that function IS trading time more accessibly than the Bazaar. It is accessibility by any definition of the word, but your irrational bitterness certainly shows in your blatant mis-characterizations regardless of who they're aimed at.
As a side point my time investment works just fine, so is everyone else' as evidenced by the stock on the inlector market. All that traded time is coming from somewhere and someone.
So lets recap: You didn't question the trade of time or RMT because they were here before you. You refuse to recognize them as such. You didn't question them because they were here before you were. You saw one change to a more accessible in game form but for some reason assumed it couldn't/shouldn't happen to the other. You took at face value a promise that by your interpretation was already being broken, and unquestioningly gave them a series of passes. You expanded that promise to a direct assurance about that handling of SP despite your prior tolerance of paid mechanics giving no room for it. You saw a new form of another paid for advantage introduced despite the promise and ignored it, possibly because you just didn't consider it personally worthwhile. You're now trying any means by which to separate this and the past so you can justify your outrage. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:39:54 -
[2127] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Mishra San wrote:I just used skill injectors on a nice hew pair of PI whores, but I failed to realize beforehand that by doing so I'd win the game.
Now that I've won the game, I have nothing else left to do..these injectors should come with a warning label.. Lordy...once again, no is claiming that cash for skills means that one can win at Eve as there is no win. BUT, cash for skills is a way for those with more disposable real life money to gain an advantage over those who cannot afford or have no desire to avail themselves of cash for skills. Those who heard of the game and spent their or others money on a sub had the same advantage prior. Regardless, someone is going to have an advantage and either way the SP all comes from training.
What's really ironic is that the first max character didn't even use cash. He use in game assets and can't have his skills exceeded, meaning there is actually no way possible cash can give a skill advantage over him.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
132
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:46:16 -
[2128] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:All that basic waffle above is irrelevant as all was introduced way before that statement helmar made... So a promise broken before it was made is somehow a promise you still believe? A promise no one takes steps towards keeping as you would have it interpreted is one you chose to value? Please tell me I'm wrong here because you're just sounding painfully naive about how things tolerated in the past could shape how CCP views it's promises in the future. And without doubt that's exactly what happened here. Berrice Silf wrote:MCTC i've always found useless to be honest, what was the point of having 2 / 3 characters on one account that you can only use 1 at a time, now though its different as you can fully utilize the farming of skill points from each and every spare slot. So you're now arguing the point of it not being personally attractive and thus is a non issue? Or was this just to state your opinion on them while realizing it has no bearing on the very real advantage they bring even as a NES item. Berrice Silf wrote:There is not legal RMT and illegal RMT either, You have the ToS laid out in the EULA you either abide by the rules set out in said document or you break them by some form of RMT. Wrong, PLEX is RMT. Selling NES goods in game is RMT. Both are legal under the EULA. I'm not sure whether it's a lack of competence or integrity that has you eating the BS that it's not (which makes your later jab really ironic, especially when around the first unholy rage RMT ban campaign the directly equated the 2 in their ads for PLEX, detailing that you could buy isk without getting banned), or whether it's simply a matter of being incapable of being critical of things that were here in some form before you were since that somehow renders them beyond criticism question. Berrice Silf wrote:Since the statement was made though we have now had this released, pretty much made a mockery of CCP / helmar / the game itself. The skill point is at the very core of the game enabling all aspects of play and you can buy it for cash, it has gone against everything that was held in the highest regard for the game - time investment.
I'm not trying to put any genie back either, that boat sailed as soon as this hit, your trying to gloss it as accessibility which is just BS, It's nothing but pure greed. If it was in anyway to help the game they wouldnt have been the price they are and certainly do not help the average new joe. Don't you remember this yet your still a CCP suckass : You were right about the price prediction, I conceded that, but that doesn't change much about the rest of the idea and its uses of functions. And that function IS trading time more accessibly than the Bazaar. It is accessibility by any definition of the word, but your irrational bitterness certainly shows in your blatant mis-characterizations regardless of who they're aimed at. As a side point my time investment works just fine, so is everyone else' as evidenced by the stock on the inlector market. All that traded time is coming from somewhere and someone. So lets recap: You didn't question the trade of time or RMT because they were here before you. You refuse to recognize them as such. You didn't question them because they were here before you were. You saw one change to a more accessible in game form but for some reason assumed it couldn't/shouldn't happen to the other. You took at face value a promise that by your interpretation was already being broken, and unquestioningly gave them a series of passes. You expanded that promise to a direct assurance about that handling of SP despite your prior tolerance of paid mechanics giving no room for it. You saw a new form of another paid for advantage introduced despite the promise and ignored it, possibly because you just didn't consider it personally worthwhile. You're now trying any means by which to separate this and the past so you can justify your outrage. Like i said all irrelevant as it was prior to the statement or before i even started to play, what does concern me is in that statement he said time over money and rise also said that skill decisions should still have priority over rapid respec's and now they've advertising it as a reskill / respec tool and not even including that it carries penalties |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:48:36 -
[2129] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Mishra San wrote:I just used skill injectors on a nice hew pair of PI whores, but I failed to realize beforehand that by doing so I'd win the game.
Now that I've won the game, I have nothing else left to do..these injectors should come with a warning label.. Lordy...once again, no is claiming that cash for skills means that one can win at Eve as there is no win. BUT, cash for skills is a way for those with more disposable real life money to gain an advantage over those who cannot afford or have no desire to avail themselves of cash for skills. Those who heard of the game and spent their or others money on a sub had the same advantage prior. Regardless, someone is going to have an advantage and either way the SP all comes from training. What's really ironic is that the first max character didn't even use cash. He use in game assets and can't have his skills exceeded, meaning there is actually no way possible cash can give a skill advantage over him. Hang fire here ty, he liquidated some of his alt's which have to be trained the natural way so have been paid for also either by plex or subs - are they not with cash ???
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:53:09 -
[2130] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said all irrelevant as it was prior to the statement or before i even started to play, what does concern me is in that statement he said time over money and rise also said that skill decisions should still have priority over rapid respec's and now they've advertising it as a reskill / respec tool and not even including that it carries penalties It's entirely relevant because it forms the basis for the rules that guide future decisions. We have an example here of exactly that.
Also time still works WITH money over just money. It's those who invest time that control what money is worth, after all.
As far as the ads, we all know what the tools are and how they work. We know their not lossless and the ads don't change that.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 19:59:06 -
[2131] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Mishra San wrote:I just used skill injectors on a nice hew pair of PI whores, but I failed to realize beforehand that by doing so I'd win the game.
Now that I've won the game, I have nothing else left to do..these injectors should come with a warning label.. Lordy...once again, no is claiming that cash for skills means that one can win at Eve as there is no win. BUT, cash for skills is a way for those with more disposable real life money to gain an advantage over those who cannot afford or have no desire to avail themselves of cash for skills. Those who heard of the game and spent their or others money on a sub had the same advantage prior. Regardless, someone is going to have an advantage and either way the SP all comes from training. What's really ironic is that the first max character didn't even use cash. He use in game assets and can't have his skills exceeded, meaning there is actually no way possible cash can give a skill advantage over him. Hang fire here ty, he liquidated some of his alt's which have to be trained the natural way so have been paid for also either by plex or subs - are they not with cash ??? Depends, since by the poster who claims the cash advantage only exists with injectors by way of buying PLEX RL and selling them in game to fund progress, by his logic no.
For me and my position that all SP is made from cash, yes, though that makes injector SP and trained SP indistinguishable, meaning one can't have a paid for advantage over the other since their both paid. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:00:25 -
[2132] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said all irrelevant as it was prior to the statement or before i even started to play, what does concern me is in that statement he said time over money and rise also said that skill decisions should still have priority over rapid respec's and now they've advertising it as a reskill / respec tool and not even including that it carries penalties It's entirely relevant because it forms the basis for the rules that guide future decisions. We have an example here of exactly that. Also time still works WITH money over just money. It's those who invest time that control what money is worth, after all. As far as the ads, we all know what the tools are and how they work. We know their not lossless and the ads don't change that. We asked for a way to respec and were told it's inefficient to and now its not mentioning helping the new player its a ****** expensive respecing mechanic - Explain ??
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:02:40 -
[2133] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said all irrelevant as it was prior to the statement or before i even started to play, what does concern me is in that statement he said time over money and rise also said that skill decisions should still have priority over rapid respec's and now they've advertising it as a reskill / respec tool and not even including that it carries penalties It's entirely relevant because it forms the basis for the rules that guide future decisions. We have an example here of exactly that. Also time still works WITH money over just money. It's those who invest time that control what money is worth, after all. As far as the ads, we all know what the tools are and how they work. We know their not lossless and the ads don't change that. We asked for a way to respec and were told it's inefficient to and now its not mentioning helping the new player its a ****** expensive respecing mechanic - Explain ?? Wait, what the ad says overrides the way it works?
Explain?? |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:06:59 -
[2134] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Like i said all irrelevant as it was prior to the statement or before i even started to play, what does concern me is in that statement he said time over money and rise also said that skill decisions should still have priority over rapid respec's and now they've advertising it as a reskill / respec tool and not even including that it carries penalties It's entirely relevant because it forms the basis for the rules that guide future decisions. We have an example here of exactly that. Also time still works WITH money over just money. It's those who invest time that control what money is worth, after all. As far as the ads, we all know what the tools are and how they work. We know their not lossless and the ads don't change that. We asked for a way to respec and were told it's inefficient to and now its not mentioning helping the new player its a ****** expensive respecing mechanic - Explain ?? Wait, what the ad says overrides the way it works? Explain?? Im trying to find the part about it helping the new player, must be in the small print:
Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK.
Really really small print. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2580
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 20:42:53 -
[2135] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So a promise broken before it was made is somehow a promise you still believe? . From here.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:19:08 -
[2136] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:So a promise broken before it was made is somehow a promise you still believe? . From here. Question still stands. The timeline is as such, Bazaar and time codes - 2003, PLEX - 2009? I think?, The promise not to give advantages for cash - 2011, MCTCs - 2014.
So we had cash capable advantages via GTC/PLEX since the beginning, but a line from a blog overrides that somehow?
Berrice Silf wrote:Im trying to find the part about it helping the new player, must be in the small print: Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. Really really small print. EDIT: Ok from a marketing stand point and all the horse crap we were fed over this in the original blog don't you think the advert should of atleast led with : Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is a great way to introduce your friends or corp mates to a speedier introduction into the vast eve universe. you could alternatively customize your skills or make some isk. but no they went straight for the wallet shot Are the only valid uses are the ones explicitly stated in that particular ad?
More importantly how is extracting SP to give to new players somehow less of a "wallet shot" than redistributing your SP. The cost is the same for the SP you want to part with either way, so what makes appealing to one stated goal morally reprehensible compared to another? |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:29:30 -
[2137] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:So a promise broken before it was made is somehow a promise you still believe? . From here. Question still stands. The timeline is as such, Bazaar and time codes - 2003, PLEX - 2009? I think?, The promise not to give advantages for cash - 2011, MCTCs - 2013. So we had cash capable advantages via GTC/PLEX since the beginning, but a line from a blog overrides that somehow? Berrice Silf wrote:Im trying to find the part about it helping the new player, must be in the small print: Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. Really really small print. EDIT: Ok from a marketing stand point and all the horse crap we were fed over this in the original blog don't you think the advert should of atleast led with : Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is a great way to introduce your friends or corp mates to a speedier introduction into the vast eve universe. you could alternatively customize your skills or make some isk. but no they went straight for the wallet shot Are the only valid uses are the ones explicitly stated in that particular ad? More importantly how is extracting SP to give to new players somehow less of a "wallet shot" than redistributing your SP. The cost is the same for the SP you want to part with either way, so what makes appealing to one stated goal morally reprehensible compared to another?
CCP have Trashed this game
http://eveboard.com/pilot/IronBank http://eveboard.com/pilot/Stromgren
Ironbank who ever he is 2016 toon over 475M SP. total joke on CCP what a waste of 10 years of paying CCP sub to get to 220mill SP |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:30:48 -
[2138] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:So a promise broken before it was made is somehow a promise you still believe? . From here. Question still stands. The timeline is as such, Bazaar and time codes - 2003, PLEX - 2009? I think?, The promise not to give advantages for cash - 2011, MCTCs - 2013. So we had cash capable advantages via GTC/PLEX since the beginning, but a line from a blog overrides that somehow? Berrice Silf wrote:Im trying to find the part about it helping the new player, must be in the small print: Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. Really really small print. EDIT: Ok from a marketing stand point and all the horse crap we were fed over this in the original blog don't you think the advert should of atleast led with : Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is a great way to introduce your friends or corp mates to a speedier introduction into the vast eve universe. you could alternatively customize your skills or make some isk. but no they went straight for the wallet shot Are the only valid uses are the ones explicitly stated in that particular ad? More importantly how is extracting SP to give to new players somehow less of a "wallet shot" than redistributing your SP. The cost is the same for the SP you want to part with either way, so what makes appealing to one stated goal morally reprehensible compared to another? what's with your playing dumb approach ?? Rise stated that rapid respeccing of skills was not the stated goal now the first line of the ad is respecing of skills, when helmar released his grovel letter about the money and time it drew a line under all that has previously passed, from 2012 clean slate no under handed tactics, MCTC are not under handed no different than having multiple accounts until now where you can use the slots as farming characters to increase the main or sell.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:37:57 -
[2139] - Quote
Nothing is the least bit trashed unless your time only amounted to 220mill SP and nothing more. If that's the case the fault lies squarely on you, not CCP. I'm happy with my best char @ 7 years, 150m SP as I was back at the beginning of October before even the initial announcement. None of what I trained was taken from me, and I have no desire to deny it to anyone else just because the way I got it was mandated at the time.
Berrice Silf wrote:what's with your playing dumb approach ?? Rise stated that rapid respeccing of skills was not the stated goal now the first line of the ad is respecing of skills, when helmar released his grovel letter about the money and time it drew a line under all that has previously passed, from 2012 clean slate no under handed tactics, MCTC are not under handed no different than having multiple accounts until now where you can use the slots as farming characters to increase the main or sell. This isn't underhanded. There is no deception involved. Everything is so incredibly straightforward and clear to everyone, so much so that no one denies a profit motive played a hand in this, that the claim of being underhanded doesn't even make any remote sense.
Beyond that note how the statement you point out doesn't say the loss mechanic was placed to prevent respecing, just rapidly doing so by introducing loss. It acknowledges that this is a thing people are expected to do with it and as a result their limiting efficiency, which they later raised to make it more usable for that purpose. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 21:51:53 -
[2140] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nothing is the least bit trashed unless your time only amounted to 220mill SP and nothing more. If that's the case the fault lies squarely on you, not CCP. I'm happy with my best char @ 7 years, 150m SP as I was back at the beginning of October before even the initial announcement. None of what I trained was taken from me, and I have no desire to deny it to anyone else just because the way I got it was mandated at the time. You really don't understand why people feel so disgusted with what CCP have done do you, the time they've taken to create and shape there characters and the money they've spent on it's journey. If the time investiture means nothing then theyre banging there heads trying to explain anything else to someone who has just an analytical approach to the problem.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 22:05:50 -
[2141] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:You really don't understand why people feel so disgusted with what CCP have done do you, the time they've taken to create and shape there characters and the money they've spent on it's journey. If the time investiture means nothing then theyre banging there heads trying to explain anything else to someone who has just an analytical approach to the problem. You're the one making the erroneous assumption that time investment means nothing to me. The real difference here is that for me that past time still has and future time continues to have value, which is why I'm actually having an odd time making sense of the whole "now I can just unsub and inject up later" approach.
With this mechanic in place I still have an objective best rate of return on investment that only requires patience. It also maintains my decisions, which is important to me. Even the ones I didn't really make persay (no, 2% reduction on manufacturing time was not worth ~10 days, but when skills change I don't get to determine how).
And the best part is my actual journey isn't and can't be touched by this. It doesn't work retroactively. Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. It's not something Stromgren or Ironbank can take. But apparently I'm banging my head trying to explain anything to someone determined to be outraged by this rather than think about it. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2582
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 03:04:02 -
[2142] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. .... Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 04:05:27 -
[2143] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. .... Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them. The things which Eve was supposedly most about don't have credit card options, or so I thought.
Turns out it was just a skill ticker.
Edit: And even the ones that do have the option of a CC you have the option of adding meaning to by not swiping yours. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 08:08:48 -
[2144] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. .... Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them. The things which Eve was supposedly most about don't have credit card options, or so I thought. Turns out it was just a skill ticker. Edit: And even the ones that do have the option of a CC you have the option of adding meaning to by not swiping yours. Everything you have done in the game now means very little, there is no prestige attached to a game where the wave of a credit card gives you anything you desire. Just because you say your not going to use it doesn't alter the perception of the gaming community. The cohesive bonds that create comradery don't happen when you can advance through an injection of real world currency infact it deters people before they even start.
Just another sell out that's chasing the money. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1933
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 08:27:57 -
[2145] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Everything you have done in the game now means very little... Going to have to cut that thought right there and point out first and foremost that for me as a player that was never something for you to determine.
So far as the wider reaching absolutes you're now trying to deal in: The social structure of the game isn't built on SP. If there's any mechanical building block it's the fact that regardless of SP individual players have limits to what they can do at any point in time and other players help bypass those limits in ways SP can't.
And as far as perception, we've been "spreadsheets in space" and more relevantly "the game you don't play for the first year" for the very aspect you're now defending. Perception is an argument of convenience which frankly doesn't even amount to an absolute. The few places I've seen that have even cared are actually more positive than this and pretty even split overall.
Edit: It's funny because looking around eve has it's fair share and more of haters at a conceptual level considering the actual size/population of the game (that's in news unrelated to this mind you). |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6944
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 09:00:53 -
[2146] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Everything you have done in the game now means very little... Going to have to cut that thought right there and point out first and foremost that for me as a player that was never something for you to determine. Oh snap, you mean people have values other than the magnitude of their SP counter? No way...
Tyberius Franklin wrote:So far as the wider reaching absolutes you're now trying to deal in: The social structure of the game isn't built on SP. If there's any mechanical building block it's the fact that regardless of SP individual players have limits to what they can do at any point in time and other players help bypass those limits in ways SP can't. So, blobbers.
Also ecm and offgrid boosts.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Unless you're meaning to suggest that gaining SP via injectors itself in a game that has seen desirability of it's members increase with their SP count in certain social circles will now shun greater availability of such increases. That's certainly possible. But at that point one has to question the value of such a connection when so many less "elite" groups are available.
ncdot still needs 30mil sp minimum to join? But perhaps my "kill:death ratio" or "isk effiiency" aren't good enough
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Bones Outten
Council of Economic Advisors Bitter Vets n Noobs
19
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 14:18:47 -
[2147] - Quote
Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? |
Ayumi Shekki
Thee Almitee Ones Paragons Of Virtue
14
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 16:31:32 -
[2148] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nothing is the least bit trashed unless your time only amounted to 220mill SP and nothing more. If that's the case the fault lies squarely on you, not CCP. I'm happy with my best char @ 7 years, 150m SP as I was back at the beginning of October before even the initial announcement. None of what I trained was taken from me, and I have no desire to deny it to anyone else just because the way I got it was mandated at the time. You really don't understand why people feel so disgusted with what CCP have done do you, the time they've taken to create and shape there characters and the money they've spent on it's journey. If the time investiture means nothing then theyre banging there heads trying to explain anything else to someone who has just an analytical approach to the problem.
Just hard to want to stay and play eve anymore it just feel like CCP have just backstabbed all it loyal alpha/beta players who have pay sub for over 10 years to train skill from each hr to each passing day to get to where we are today. Just sad to see a game turn in to a Pay To Win.
CCP might as well just make this game to Free To Play
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob! |
jason hill
Government The Blood Covenant
854
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 20:19:07 -
[2149] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:jason hill wrote:yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?
its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo Not sure this argument even holds fully true with the number of skills that have changed function or prerequisites that have shifted.
To an extent and in a way your 100% correct .Hence removing the learning skills ... I was bloody furious when they were removed yes ok we got the a refund ...but we weren't refunded for the time it took to train them AFAIK .
Like I said in one of my previous posts this new crop of Devs don't have the same vision that the original devs had hence their "im stamping my foot on the game mechanics" |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1934
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 04:39:05 -
[2150] - Quote
Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? Obviously no.
But there being a train doesn't stop people from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. And being on the train obviously means you aren't doing the cycle run, but doesn't stop anyone else from doing it.
Well, maybe it does for some people here I suppose as evidenced by the fact this logic was even be used.
jason hill wrote:To an extent and in a way your 100% correct .Hence removing the learning skills ... I was bloody furious when they were removed yes ok we got the a refund ...but we weren't refunded for the time it took to train them AFAIK . Not sure how both the idea that we got refunded the SP AND the idea that we didn't get refunded the time can both be true.
Since SP is a function of time x training speed and they can't literally give you the time they gave you the SP representing that time to apply to other skills as if you used that same time to train them instead.
Can't say I'm really mad about their removal, are you mad because of the idea that the time wasn't refunded or something else? |
|
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
207
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 08:17:23 -
[2151] - Quote
Suede wrote:CCP have Trashed this game
eveboard.com/pilot/IronBank eveboard.com/pilot/Stromgren
Ironbank who ever he is 2016 toon over 475M SP. total joke on CCP what a waste of 10 years of paying CCP sub to get to 220mill SP It's 4,630 days from Stromgren's birth on 17.6.2006 until today. Assuming a constant training of the skills (with the maximum of 2.700SP/h) Stromgren would be at 300 Million SP. Stromgren currently is at 411 Million SP. The spike on SP/time happened after the introduction of stkill trading. That's when he started injecting SP beyond the 238 Million he had.
I'm not sure if the 10+ years are wasted, as I'm pretty sure that Strommgren played eve all the time. It's hard for me to believe that anybody would stick with a game for that time if it's not fun, at least not for such a long time. You may ask him.
Any player in eve should discover and stick to their own defintion of fun with the game. Don't let your fun be ruled by what was, you'll end up wishing "vanilla wow" back. And don't let your fun be ruled by other players' definitions of fun with eve.
However, I see that skill trading already did and most likely will have impact on this definition of fun by some players. And new players, will most definitely discover the game in an environment where instant carrier is at least an option/something to strive for. New players don't have to experience the change of paradigm that some existing players have do. And they way CCP handled the disuccion of this matter before it got introduced. But that is just another example of CCPs dedication to open communication with the community (read:duck and cover).
It's the perception and conclusions of what eve is, that worry me. At least the trailer which attempts to show "this is eve", though, would still be possiible no matter if skill trading existed back then.
Neuspielererfahrung - ISD - pwned by linguistic
|
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
207
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 08:36:46 -
[2152] - Quote
Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? To keep it with real world examples:
I have a disability (MS) which has a negative impact on the sports I love (cycling). My previous employer sponsored a cycling race event that happens each year (on a road race track in southern denmark) and invited all employees to participate.
I was the only employee that participated (and got removed by the broom wagon after the second lap) It was great fun!
Neuspielererfahrung - ISD - pwned by linguistic
|
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 08:43:08 -
[2153] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:You really don't understand why people feel so disgusted with what CCP have done do you, the time they've taken to create and shape there characters and the money they've spent on it's journey. If the time investiture means nothing then theyre banging there heads trying to explain anything else to someone who has just an analytical approach to the problem.
What I don't understand is how them introducing the SP trading, changes the value of your time retroactively? That just makes no sense at all. You have have enjoyed your time playing EVE for X number of years. You made the journey, which according to some philosophies, is more worth than the end point. That they introduce something now, that you don't like, would at most ruin your enjoyment of the game now. It does not negate the X years you enjoyed, as you already have had your fun. That is not being taken away. If you feel like it is, then it is a mentality thing on your part. Just be happy about the time you enjoyed, and if you don't enjoy it now, then stop playing. Being bitter will severely affect your general life quality, and it is not worth that.
In the past I have played other MMOs that I have stopped enjoying due to tedium or changes they made. I just quit, leaving all my stuff behind and found something I enjoy ot play instead. I did not, bring a lot of drama to the forums, claiming the time I had enjoyed was wasted. I will probably never understand that mentality. The world is dynamic, and so are your gaming choices, don't get too attached to the pixels, it is just a waste of life.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2072
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 09:44:17 -
[2154] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? Obviously no. But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. And being on the train obviously means you aren't doing the cycle run, but doesn't stop anyone else from doing it. Well, maybe it does for some people here I suppose as evidenced by the fact this logic was even be used. ...
The problem here is in the fact that some people can't afford this hypothetical train to Brighton. And as far as they can tell Brighton must be where all the fun is as you can buy your way there faster. By this thinking you must be missing out on the fun if you can't afford the train ticket and have to slog your way there in the meantime.
Without SP the fun was in the journey, it had to be as there was no other choice. SP trading has turned this journey into an inconvenience for those who can't afford the train tickets but want to get to Brighton at the same time as those who can.
SP trading will change new players (and older players) perception of what EvE is. In my opinion (based on how I play the game) EvE lost something of itself with SP trading and now the genie is out of the bottle it can't get that back. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1934
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 10:36:18 -
[2155] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? Obviously no. But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. And being on the train obviously means you aren't doing the cycle run, but doesn't stop anyone else from doing it. Well, maybe it does for some people here I suppose as evidenced by the fact this logic was even be used. ... The problem here is in the fact that some people can't afford this hypothetical train to Brighton. And as far as they can tell Brighton must be where all the fun is as you can buy your way there faster. By this thinking you must be missing out on the fun if you can't afford the train ticket and have to slog your way there in the meantime. Without SP the fun was in the journey, it had to be as there was no other choice. SP trading has turned this journey into an inconvenience for those who can't afford the train tickets but want to get to Brighton at the same time as those who can. SP trading will change new players (and older players) perception of what EvE is. In my opinion (based on how I play the game) EvE lost something of itself with SP trading and now the genie is out of the bottle it can't get that back. So what we have then is a question purely of perception vs reality.
Since we're running this analogy for all it's worth: We all know not being in Brighton doesn't mean not having fun, or so I would have though since those of us still accruing SP for whatever reason never got all the way there. At the same time I'm assuming we're still here because we enjoyed the game for more than simply counting the steps to it.
Yet this conversation has done everything to paint that as not the case.
Another factor here is that the perception of "it's more fun in Brighton" didn't start with skill injectors/extractors. I'm certain that the sentiment has been exasperated because of the strong opposition. 2003 players speaking of their achievements and how it's all ruined by younger players using injectors certainly doesn't tell those newer players that low SP is something you can have fun with. It says that SP was something to be envious and covetous of, but would take over a decade to achieve themselves.
We have a decade thick brick wall of perception already. And it was actually a great deal sturdier before the first blog.
I won't argue there are no inevitable mechanical changes, though quantifying them as inherently harmful still seems a stretch. Most of the harm seems to rather come from the perception that being poor in game didn't hold you back somehow before and real life wealth was never employed to resolve that. And further we're reinforcing the notion that, per the vets insistence that this is P2W, it is necessary to have fun. Problem is that even if that argument killed the idea itself it also reinforces the notion that even isn't worth playing the first few years. And to many that means just plain not worth playing.
I get the argument of appearances, but since no one cares how bad the skill system looks overall so long as they can tarnish injectors we're not gaining progress either way. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3303
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 12:04:11 -
[2156] - Quote
The only sensible solution to this is to give everybody all the skills to level V, immediately.
Then, no one will have to wait to do anything due to lack of skills and players will have to rely on superior mental ability to use said skills.
The very idea that any one should have to wait to fly ships etc due to lack of money or the fact that they did not start playing Eve on day one is just old fashioned and unfair to the 'I want it all and I want it now ' folk.
This is not a signature.
|
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 13:00:43 -
[2157] - Quote
Interesting how this threads ethos has turned in the past few days as players begin to realise the depth of this apparently simple change to the game. Seems you cannot take the skill out the player but you can now at a swipe of a credit card suck it out of the heads of your toons.
Apart from the obvious disgust at this change some now belatedly exhibit the real issue here is in that simple statement, were is the skill actually based, Give a ten years player a noob toon and they can work wonders in game with it, but give a ten year old toon to a noob player and is the reverse true, Very doubtful, more than probably all they will do is get themselves continually blown up, become utterly disillusioned with Eve and leave the game in short order. CCP will be happy they got the short term dollar injection but will soon find this dries up, Players on the other hand, Well not so much will they find that same dollar bought them the satisfaction they initially believed it would.
As with the so called 'New Player Experience'. That freebie grapple that CCP injected into the game to get players over the initial vertical learning curve and into Eve properly and quickly in there view, Has this been a success, again very doubtful it has as the reality of it by the nature of humans in general means that the vast majority not having to undergo that initial baptism of fire will soon find that not only have they been deceived by CCP, but that they have arrived in Eve proper utterly ill equipped to cope with day to day life in game. Soon loose interest as it bites them daily and find there ability to progress gimped simply because they never had the chance to learn even the basics.
Skill Extractors, Well you either take em or leave em, either way Players should never ignore what brought them into the game, Once fully understanding the implication of them there is only one way to combat this creeping disease currently making it's way into the game, and that is not to participate in it, a far more powerful voice than the CSM ever gave you.
|
Stromgren
Forcas armadas DARKNESS.
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 00:58:22 -
[2158] - Quote
Darkblad wrote:It's 4,630 days from Stromgren's birth on 17.6.2006 until today. Assuming a constant training of the skills (with the maximum of 2.700SP/h) Stromgren would be at 300 Million SP. Stromgren currently is at 411 Million SP. The spike on SP/time happened after the introduction of stkill trading. That's when he started injecting SP beyond the 238 Million he had.
I'm not sure if the 10+ years are wasted, as I'm pretty sure that Strommgren played eve all the time. It's hard for me to believe that anybody would stick with a game for that time if it's not fun, at least not for such a long time. You may ask him.
Darkblad,
You are right, my account was active and i was playing all these years, unfortunately my choice to live in nullsec space and my option to practice PVP prevented me to be able to train at max speed...
After so many years i still enjoying the game, I have 5 accounts and 15 pilots, and in the last 13 years I've done pretty much everything there is to do in this game.
- I played in Highsec, Lowsec, nullsec and WH space - Did PVP in small, medium and large scale - I built supercapitals - I deployed outposts - I led an alliance in Syndicate for nearly three years. - Etc, Etc...
And this list can probably go for a while...
But there is something that i always belived that i was never going to achieve in this game: the hability to recover the skill points that I missed in all this years due my playstyle, and with the advent of skills injectors it became possible.
Ok i agree that probably the ISK that i used in the process can be more useful if I choose to invest it in something else, but to tell the truth, I'm quite happy with the use that I gave to it :)
There is nothing that I`m able to do now that i wasn't able to do 10 days ago when i had 238 million SPs, my choose to boost my skill points do not harm any other player, and the major part of skill points that disappeared from the game in the process came from my Alts.
Stromgren |
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 03:03:44 -
[2159] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. .... Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them.
On the contrary, life can be rendered "futile" when present events cause one to re-cast the joys of one's past into sorrow in the present. So many people like to say "I live for the present." or "I live in the moment."
Tiberius actually understands those words and lives them. Though I don't know him/her, I bet there is a very joyful person behind that avatar.
"Credit cards" are "waved" every day at every conceivable type of human endeavor. Sports. Science. Medicine. Games. Philanthropy. You name it. We celebrate all of them. Often the people that celebrate new achievements most loudly are the people who's prior achievements (goals) were surpassed.
Good on you, mate, Tyberius.
Ken |
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 03:41:52 -
[2160] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:What I don't understand is how them introducing the SP trading, changes the value of your time retroactively? That just makes no sense at all. You have have enjoyed your time playing EVE for X number of years. You made the journey, which according to some philosophies, is more worth than the end point. That they introduce something now, that you don't like, would at most ruin your enjoyment of the game now. It does not negate the X years you enjoyed, as you already have had your fun. That is not being taken away. If you feel like it is, then it is a mentality thing on your part. Just be happy about the time you enjoyed, and if you don't enjoy it now, then stop playing. Being bitter will severely affect your general life quality, and it is not worth that.
For those for whom an event in the present can alter their enjoyment of their past, no explanation will be sufficient.
I've spent all of my adult life married to a woman who had a choice to let the death of her husband at 25 recast all of the goals they'd achieved as a young couple into dross OR celebrate the many goals they'd achieved, then go on to build new ones.
That's true mastery at life.
L5 achieved.
The same mindset is possible vis-a-vis Eve and CPP.
|
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 09:01:14 -
[2161] - Quote
Ken Bekle wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. .... Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them. On the contrary, life can be rendered "futile" when present events cause one to re-cast the joys of one's past into sorrow in the present. So many people like to say "I live for the present." or "I live in the moment." Tiberius actually understands those words and lives them. Though I don't know him/her, I bet there is a very joyful person behind that avatar. "Credit cards" are "waved" every day at every conceivable type of human endeavor. Sports. Science. Medicine. Games. Philanthropy. You name it. We celebrate all of them. Often the people that celebrate new achievements most loudly are the people who's prior achievements (goals) were surpassed. Good on you, mate, Tyberius. Ken That was a truly awesome analogy, Bribes - back handers - covert payments - more bribes, philanthropy i dont see anyone giving there skill points away either
Before pay for (Insert your favorite meaning ) deployed, the game was engaging and immersive. each few days giving you the buzz that you were going to be flying something either bigger or diverse in the role you were playing obviously moving to weeks / month for bigger and better but its what kept you coming back all the time - The goals.
Now all it's become is he/she who has access to the cash wins, win being instantly attaining the level of character they desire to fly said ship/doctrine. If you have nothing to aim for or others around you see that with cash you can instantly jump from weeks to years ahead of the crowd what incentive is there to carry on except you jump on the band wagon ( CCP Hopes ) or you get left behind and say screw it. You have taken a game that was a completely level playing field and turned it into the have's and have not's - people play games to take a break from real life not to have it rubbed in there faces once again and this is whats happened here.
Working towards a goal and getting it is an achievement - flexing your wallet to get the same result is not at all the same thing and certainly not an achievement. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2587
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 12:00:10 -
[2162] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like: I did the London to Brighton Cycle run. I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
21
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 14:48:55 -
[2163] - Quote
This is Eve in 2016
Source
Last time that GÇ£greed was goodGÇ¥, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
|
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
39
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 15:43:32 -
[2164] - Quote
I'll just leave this here. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6946
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 16:17:15 -
[2165] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:philanthropy i dont see anyone giving there skill points away either If I was quitting eve i wouldn't give you anything either (maybe 0.01isk)
Goes to our newbies who have other things to do besides post on eveo
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1939
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 19:37:04 -
[2166] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like: I did the London to Brighton Cycle run. I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line. The problem with that analogy is that there is 0 room for interference or impedance. Training isn't something that someone else can stop you from using in any way. They can rent motorcycles all they want, they're now free to do so and it doesn't bother me at all since we were all never in a race to begin with.
When I sought peak SP per hour it was for my own benefit in expanding my own skills faster that I myself would otherwise, not catching up of keeping up with others. I've had years to learn to deal with people having more SP than me while still enjoying the game, so even if the broke out F1 cars, so long as those cars can harm my bike I'm still not going to insist they can't have then to make me feel better or pretend it means I have to get an F1 car now to in order to try to be happy with the game. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
145
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 20:03:38 -
[2167] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like: I did the London to Brighton Cycle run. I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line. The problem with that analogy is that there is 0 room for interference or impedance. Training isn't something that someone else can stop you from using in any way. They can rent motorcycles all they want, they're now free to do so and it doesn't bother me at all since we were all never in a race to begin with. When I sought peak SP per hour it was for my own benefit in expanding my own skills faster that I myself would otherwise, not catching up of keeping up with others. I've had years to learn to deal with people having more SP than me while still enjoying the game, so even if the broke out F1 cars, so long as those cars can harm my bike I'm still not going to insist they can't have then to make me feel better or pretend it means I have to get an F1 car now to in order to try to be happy with the game. The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry. Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex. They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping.
A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1939
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 20:28:00 -
[2168] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry. Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex. They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping. Then we have the sellers now banging each unit out for a profit - to which i remember people in the other thread saying pffft i'd of given them away A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in. Problematically to you objection, with the exception of sov changes, every single factor in that complaint is both voluntary and completely avoidable.
You want a 1x charge for you time or are concerned about $/SP the course is simple. Sub your account and train normally. Stop acting like this is somehow compulsory. Just don't use it.
The only way CCP makes more money from this is people using it, and if they're using it they must find it worthwhile. And it's their choice made under their values. I don't find it worthwhile, as you point out, so I don't use it. Simple. Still paying for 30 (or 90/180/360) days at a time and nothing more (save the occasional aur skin for personal use).
As also stated before: I gave what I believed was a good balance point on this but was overruled by CCP, now for those that participate the market consequences for the pricing, if any, will become apparent. But since the numbers don't match up to what I think is appropriate it makes it easier to just do as I'd originally planned on doing since the first thread, not using the mechanic. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
146
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 20:45:03 -
[2169] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry. Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex. They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping. Then we have the sellers now banging each unit out for a profit - to which i remember people in the other thread saying pffft i'd of given them away A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in. Problematically to you objection, with the exception of sov changes, every single factor in that complaint is both voluntary and completely avoidable. You want a 1x charge for you time or are concerned about $/SP the course is simple. Sub your account and train normally. Stop acting like this is somehow compulsory. Just don't use it. The only way CCP makes more money from this is people using it, and if they're using it they must find it worthwhile. And it's their choice made under their values. I don't find it worthwhile, as you point out, so I don't use it. Simple. Still paying for 30 (or 90/180/360) days at a time and nothing more (save the occasional aur skin for personal use). As also stated before: I gave what I believed was a good balance point on this but was overruled by CCP, now for those that participate the market consequences for the pricing, if any, will become apparent. But since the numbers don't match up to what I think is appropriate it makes it easier to just do as I'd originally planned on doing since the first thread, not using the mechanic. That was very eloquently put, what i asked you is it double dipping a some what jaded client base, also with the advancement mechanics in full swing now doesn't it seem more like a f2p model.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1939
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 20:58:43 -
[2170] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:That was very eloquently put, what i asked you is it double dipping a some what jaded client base, also with the advancement mechanics in full swing now doesn't it seem more like a f2p model. The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that).
As such no, I don't see an F2P model here, but as posted in the past I do agree on the concept of double dipping, but that's an opinion on a personal level. Other have argued the current price beneficial and I'm willing to concede they may have a point given the mechanic is both new and as of yet not collapsing.
Besides, the core of all SP advancement is still training, which is sub based. If'when CCP introduces trainingless subs we'll have room to re-evaluate and discuss this further alongside the willingness to continue playing/paying. Till then I'm content with the current choice to not participate from both a fair price standpoint as well as personal preference in how I develop my characters.
|
|
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 23:37:09 -
[2171] - Quote
withdrawn |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2589
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 04:19:02 -
[2172] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like: I did the London to Brighton Cycle run. I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line. The problem with that analogy is that there is 0 room for interference or impedance. . Books.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 06:57:04 -
[2173] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Books. Don't provide a means of impedance for training. |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 13:32:10 -
[2174] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that).
Although this is obviously correct, the individual perspective is different. If I do not pay money from my wallet, it is F2P for me - if I do, it is not. I can play for free for many years with money that someone else paid in the past and that has already been spent by CCP (it might have been accrued in the balance sheet, but a good portion of the liquidity has already been used).
The major problem I see at the current stage is, that with character progression over time, more and more players do not need to pay for the game with their own wallets. This growing number of potential F2Players has to be substituted by more players who are willing to spend RL money or by players, who are willing to spend more money.
There are not so many options for CCP:
a) make it far more difficult to pay for your gametime with ISK
This implies the danger of decreasing player numbers and such be bad for marketing and option b) - and the game, but I am talking business only
b) get more new players in and keep them
This will require a bundle of measures that might include changing game mechanics to cater to a younger customer base, which might have different expectations compared to the current average customer base. If I think of my 14 year old son who tried EvE for a while - the game would have to be very different from its current stage in order for him to stay interested in. His friends did not even give it a try when he was playing and advertising it - most of them are "playing" SC on the other hand.
c) find other ways to monetize on your IP
This is what is currently enforced - now for the first time with the visible goal to support option b), I am not so sure how succesful this will be in the long run.
It will very likely be a combination of all three options and I assume that we "older" players might not like all of them as we are not the primary target group. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2590
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 13:42:57 -
[2175] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Books. Don't provide a means of impedance for training. Can be. Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 14:25:55 -
[2176] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that). As such no, I don't see an F2P model here. I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then to speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:As posted in the past I do agree on the concept of double dipping, but that's an opinion on a personal level. Other have argued the current price beneficial and I'm willing to concede they may have a point given the mechanic is both new and as of yet not collapsing. No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen. |
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 21:10:11 -
[2177] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that). As such no, I don't see an F2P model here. I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design. Tyberius Franklin wrote:As posted in the past I do agree on the concept of double dipping, but that's an opinion on a personal level. Other have argued the current price beneficial and I'm willing to concede they may have a point given the mechanic is both new and as of yet not collapsing. No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen.
CCP should make eve in to a F2P Model
Free-to-play (F2P) refers to video games which give players access to a significant portion of their content without paying. There are several kinds of free-to-play games, but the most common is based on the freemium software model. For freemium games, users are granted access to a fully functional game, but must pay microtransactions to access additional content. Free-to-play can be contrasted with pay-to-play, in which payment is required before using a service for the first time.
The model was first popularly used in early massively multiplayer online games targeted towards casual gamers, before finding wider adoption among games released by major video game publishers to combat video game piracy and high system requirements. Without up front payment, publishers may charge money for in-game items or integrate advertisements into the game.
i don't see the point in paying a sub to CCP in regards to how CCP is as company or even a business. if they going more down the Pay to win model to a company might as well overprice the gold ammo.
Least CCP will get more player playing eve might even make more money in the SP Trading. F2P model for eve online is best road to drive down. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 21:48:07 -
[2178] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design. Sounds like you're taking an overly broad yet somehow amazingly narrow approach to the definition of F2P design. To draw from my limited F2P experience:
GW2 and WoT wouldn't count as F2P despite actually being free to play due to not having, so far as I remember when I played them, daily allowances of resources where you could have bought our way around limits.
Meanwhile a sub game, in this case Eve, does count as F2P due to what is in my view still a mischaracterization of an already existing condition being enabled by other mechanics prior.
We're just getting more divergent here, before we were just disagreeing on whether this made Eve F2P, now I think we've moved into disagreeing on what F2P design is.
Berrice Silf wrote:No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen. CCP charges to move anything around, as such the expectation to do so for free would have to be made in ignorance of concepts like PLEX prices relative to a sub and character transfer fees. Further while stock will decrease to just that produced by farms demand for SP shouldn't stay constant I'd estimate. Especially with rising costs for diminishing returns as buyers build more SP.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Can be. Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy. Maybe you should be less cryptic and state what you mean. How does having friends or not having friends prevent me from purchasing, injecting, and queuing skills? Seems to be working fine either way. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 21:56:22 -
[2179] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design. Sounds like you're taking an overly broad yet somehow amazingly narrow approach to the definition of F2P design. To draw from my limited F2P experience: GW2 and WoT wouldn't count as F2P despite actually being free to play due to not having, so far as I remember when I played them, daily allowances of resources where you could have bought our way around limits. Meanwhile a sub game, in this case Eve, does count as F2P due to what is in my view still a mischaracterization of an already existing condition being enabled by other mechanics prior. We're just getting more divergent here, before we were just disagreeing on whether this made Eve F2P, now I think we've moved into disagreeing on what F2P design is. Berrice Silf wrote:No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen. CCP charges to move anything around, as such the expectation to do so for free would have to be made in ignorance of concepts like PLEX prices relative to a sub and character transfer fees. Further while stock will decrease to just that produced by farms demand for SP shouldn't stay constant I'd estimate. Especially with rising costs for diminishing returns as buyers build more SP. Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Can be. Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy. Maybe you should be less cryptic and state what you mean. How does having friends or not having friends prevent me from purchasing, injecting, and queuing skills? Seems to be working fine either way. Maybe your confused because GW2 is buy to play not f2p.
In an interview with Polygon earlier this week to prepare for the announcement, O'Brien told us that this shift to free for the base game doesn't change the studio's core approach buy-to-play, a model he has "been championing since the original Guild Wars a decade ago."
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 22:10:29 -
[2180] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Maybe your confused because GW2 is buy to play not f2p.
In an interview with Polygon earlier this week to prepare for the announcement, O'Brien told us that this shift to free for the base game doesn't change the studio's core approach buy-to-play, a model he has "been championing since the original Guild Wars a decade ago." I'm genuinely uncertain how that works, where one can and does enter the game and play for free while not being free to play. Further I'm not sure how that statement alters the facts of the strategy.
Reminds me of DC Universe online really, to the point of being indistinguishable (tiered membership with locked areas, limited character slots, inventory, currency and abilities, and various other limits) buy they had no qualms calling it F2P.
|
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 22:38:16 -
[2181] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Maybe your confused because GW2 is buy to play not f2p.
In an interview with Polygon earlier this week to prepare for the announcement, O'Brien told us that this shift to free for the base game doesn't change the studio's core approach buy-to-play, a model he has "been championing since the original Guild Wars a decade ago." I'm genuinely uncertain how that works, where one can and does enter the game and play for free while not being free to play. Further I'm not sure how that statement alters the facts of the strategy. Reminds me of DC Universe online really, to the point of being indistinguishable (tiered membership with locked areas, limited character slots, inventory, currency and abilities, and various other limits) buy they had no qualms calling it F2P. You have to purchase the product in question and register it, once completed you then play online at no additional cost.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 22:44:30 -
[2182] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:You have to purchase the product in question and register it, once completed you then play online at no additional cost. The page blatantly starting with "Play Guild Wars 2 for free" and ending with "Sign Up and Play For Free." suggest otherwise.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2016.02.22 22:52:44 -
[2183] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:You have to purchase the product in question and register it, once completed you then play online at no additional cost. The page blatantly starting with "Play Guild Wars 2 for free" and ending with "Sign Up and Play For Free." suggest otherwise. They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.
"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."
EDIT: "We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 00:02:25 -
[2184] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.
"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."
EDIT: "We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money. Which factually describes a F2P scenario with a content gate. They could have just as easily stopped selling the vanilla game and replaced it with expansion + vanilla packs exclusively to those who didn't already have the game creating the same lack of division for a single purchase.
Instead they created a second and third tier between the expansion, grandfathered buy to play players, and new free to play accounts.
This just comes off as semantics. Their using the same model and taking the same actions as other F2P games, but aren't because he says so. I think I'm pretty far in the right here not buying it. Basically I think ArenaNet is being about as straightforward there as you believe CCP is being here.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2590
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 02:25:38 -
[2185] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Can be. Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy. Maybe you should be less cryptic and state what you mean. How does having friends or not having friends prevent me from purchasing, injecting, and queuing skills? Seems to be working fine either way. They are objects that cost ISK. Either try and drive someone to being poor or try and limit their access. You can do this as a consequence of other more "fun" actions.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
Now that everything can be bought for $, EVE has no goals - empty shell.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 02:45:25 -
[2186] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Can be. Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy. Maybe you should be less cryptic and state what you mean. How does having friends or not having friends prevent me from purchasing, injecting, and queuing skills? Seems to be working fine either way. They are objects that cost ISK. Either try and drive someone to being poor or try and limit their access. You can do this as a consequence of other more "fun" actions. So basically normal training is in no way impeded by the "motorcyclists" even through skill books.
What you're referring to is an entirely separate group than injector users at this point, and that's IF said group has the capacity to deny skill book purchases, something not reasonable given NPC seeding for most of them, and neither made beneficial nor enabled by skill trading for the rest.
I'm just trying to figure out the vector of impalement that these motorcyclists are doing to us normal training users. What you're giving me instead is just some existing means to mess with markets not related to the advent of skill trading. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 07:46:26 -
[2187] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.
"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."
EDIT: "We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money. Which factually describes a F2P scenario with a content gate. They could have just as easily stopped selling the vanilla game and replaced it with expansion + vanilla packs exclusively to those who didn't already have the game creating the same lack of division for a single purchase. Instead they created a second and third tier between the expansion, grandfathered buy to play players, and new free to play accounts. This just comes off as semantics. Their using the same model and taking the same actions as other F2P games, but aren't because he says so. I think I'm pretty far in the right here not buying it. Basically I think ArenaNet is being about as straightforward there as you believe CCP is being here. No because there is no content gate all is available to play you have restrictions on when you can join the world pvp and have less inventory space on the base model only but on purchasing the expansion all restrictions are lifted. CCP have gradually over the years turned there pay to play model into some kind of cash sucking hybrid, we still have to pay to play but everything that you do in it's base play design can now be speeded up by purchasing in game.
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 12:53:41 -
[2188] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.
"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."
EDIT: "We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money. Which factually describes a F2P scenario with a content gate. They could have just as easily stopped selling the vanilla game and replaced it with expansion + vanilla packs exclusively to those who didn't already have the game creating the same lack of division for a single purchase. Instead they created a second and third tier between the expansion, grandfathered buy to play players, and new free to play accounts. This just comes off as semantics. Their using the same model and taking the same actions as other F2P games, but aren't because he says so. I think I'm pretty far in the right here not buying it. Basically I think ArenaNet is being about as straightforward there as you believe CCP is being here. No because there is no content gate all is available to play you have restrictions on when you can join the world pvp and have less inventory space on the base model only but on purchasing the expansion all restrictions are lifted. CCP have gradually over the years turned there pay to play model into some kind of cash sucking hybrid, we still have to pay to play but everything that you do in it's base play design can now be speeded up by purchasing in game.
I think CCP should make eve online to Free To Pay Model as it just don't justify in paying a subscription fee for time or to wait on skill to train when CCP went and changed way eve is as a model and more to Pay To Win or Get your money out to jump the skill queue.
There just no value for money for money in paying a subscription Fee to Wait on skills when you can just Pay for the Skill there no justification. CCP will do better if they just make Eve to Free to play model instead of milking it Alpha/Beta players
Just a Sad way of CCP to rob all its loyal based players twice over on subscription Fees. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1943
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 19:32:29 -
[2189] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.
"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."
EDIT: "We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money. Which factually describes a F2P scenario with a content gate. They could have just as easily stopped selling the vanilla game and replaced it with expansion + vanilla packs exclusively to those who didn't already have the game creating the same lack of division for a single purchase. Instead they created a second and third tier between the expansion, grandfathered buy to play players, and new free to play accounts. This just comes off as semantics. Their using the same model and taking the same actions as other F2P games, but aren't because he says so. I think I'm pretty far in the right here not buying it. Basically I think ArenaNet is being about as straightforward there as you believe CCP is being here. No because there is no content gate all is available to play you have restrictions on when you can join the world pvp and have less inventory space on the base model only but on purchasing the expansion all restrictions are lifted. CCP have gradually over the years turned there pay to play model into some kind of cash sucking hybrid, we still have to pay to play but everything that you do in it's base play design can now be speeded up by purchasing in game. Yes, there is a content gate, it's called the Heart of thorns expansion. That's on top of the various level gates imposed on accessing content that isn't present on core accounts. Add to that to the other restrictions and the free account basically amounts to classic restricted F2P.
At this point I'm not sure why you're clinging to the idea that a F2P game is somehow not F2P. The website for the game calls it F2P, players call it F2P, gaming news sites call it F2P. A single interview claimed it wasn't, but the rest of the company didn't seem to get the memo since everywhere else it's being marketed as F2P.
So are the vast majority of people wrong about what F2P means because one person got to redefine it? Or is that just a positive spin on what some players may see as a negative move invalidating their prior purchase? I'm leaning towards the latter. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 21:15:20 -
[2190] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Yes, there is a content gate, it's called the Heart of thorns expansion. That's on top of the various level gates imposed on accessing content that isn't present on core accounts. Add to that to the other restrictions and the free account basically amounts to classic restricted F2P.
At this point I'm not sure why you're clinging to the idea that a F2P game is somehow not F2P. The website for the game calls it F2P, players call it F2P, gaming news sites call it F2P. A single interview claimed it wasn't, but the rest of the company didn't seem to get the memo since everywhere else it's being marketed as F2P.
So are the vast majority of people wrong about what F2P means because one person got to redefine it? Or is that just a positive spin on what some players may see as a negative move invalidating their prior purchase? I'm leaning towards the latter.. I take it you don't realise who Mike O'brien is then seeing as he's just one person ??
Heart of thrones is not a content gate, Once you purchase the expansion your free account gets upgraded to a full access core account unlocking the world pvp for lower level characters and your inventory is maxxed. What don't you possibly understand about Buy 2 play lol.
"This is a buy-to-play game, and we are making the core game free."
"LetGÇÖs make it so that anybody who wants to check out Guild Wars 2 can check out Guild Wars 2. And can really check out the game, not some free-to-play monetised version of the game."
Seeing as you struggle with whats happening in eve it's hardly surprising you dont grasp basic business models
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1944
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 21:30:30 -
[2191] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:I take it you don't realise who Mike O'brien is then seeing as he's just one person ?? Not sure what you're asking here. Are you saying he's more than one person? Or that who he is specifically has the capacity ti qualify him as more than one person?
Or perhaps this is some appeal to his authority that makes his statement worth more than all the people stating the contrary including those responsible for the materials presenting the game?
Berrice Silf wrote:Heart of thrones is not a content gate, Once you purchase the expansion your free account gets upgraded to a full access core account unlocking the world pvp for lower level characters and your inventory is maxxed. What don't you possibly understand about Buy 2 play lol. Wait, so there is content locked behind this expansion, but the expansion isn't a content gate. Also the expansion isn't needed to play the core game, in fact no purchase is. You can obtain and play it for free, not on a trial basis but actually for free, but it's not free to play.
Ok.
Berrice Silf wrote:"This is a buy-to-play game, and we are making the core game free." "LetGÇÖs make it so that anybody who wants to check out Guild Wars 2 can check out Guild Wars 2. And can really check out the game, not some free-to-play monetised version of the game." Seeing as you struggle with whats happening in eve it's hardly surprising you dont grasp basic business models Whelp, I'll stick with actually identifying the model over taking a single person's word that their not using that model because they say so. And further lets be honest, gems and gem related purchases were additional monetization on top of buy to play back when it was exclusively buy to play. They already had an additionally monetized version of the game, complete with XP boosts and currency purchases.
I'll take to heart what you think I can't grasp when you can actually get some facts about what you're talking about somewhere in the general vicinity of actually correct instead of basing your stance on corporate swill. Especially from a man who says one thing but has his own company publish another. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:27:20 -
[2192] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:I take it you don't realise who Mike O'brien is then seeing as he's just one person ?? Not sure what you're asking here. Are you saying he's more than one person? Or that who he is specifically has the capacity ti qualify him as more than one person? Or perhaps this is some appeal to his authority that makes his statement worth more than all the people stating the contrary including those responsible for the materials presenting the game? Berrice Silf wrote:Heart of thrones is not a content gate, Once you purchase the expansion your free account gets upgraded to a full access core account unlocking the world pvp for lower level characters and your inventory is maxxed. What don't you possibly understand about Buy 2 play lol. Wait, so there is content locked behind this expansion, but the expansion isn't a content gate. Also the expansion isn't needed to play the core game, in fact no purchase is. You can obtain and play it for free, not on a trial basis but actually for free, but it's not free to play. Ok. Berrice Silf wrote:"This is a buy-to-play game, and we are making the core game free." "LetGÇÖs make it so that anybody who wants to check out Guild Wars 2 can check out Guild Wars 2. And can really check out the game, not some free-to-play monetised version of the game." Seeing as you struggle with whats happening in eve it's hardly surprising you dont grasp basic business models Whelp, I'll stick with actually identifying the model over taking a single person's word that their not using that model because they say so. And further lets be honest, gems and gem related purchases were additional monetization on top of buy to play back when it was exclusively buy to play. They already had an additionally monetized version of the game, complete with XP boosts and currency purchases. I'll take to heart what you think I can't grasp when you can actually get some facts about what you're talking about somewhere in the general vicinity of actually correct instead of basing your stance on corporate swill. Especially from a man who says one thing but has his own company do another. There is a huge difference between a game that was buy 2 play being released to all free as opposed to a free 2 play game. You say to me semantics lol.
It wasnt an additional monetized version, gem store has been there all the time and you can't go to it and oh look instant max toon or buy the latest best flavour of anything - XP boosters - tomes - scrolls arn't just from the store either theyre from event weeks / weekends holiday specials, Freebies for doing things in game ....... not having the hand always out, we want more style.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1944
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:41:14 -
[2193] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:There is a huge difference between a game that was buy 2 play being released to all free as opposed to a free 2 play game. You say to me semantics lol. Feel free to quantify it. Further please explain how a pay to play game is easier to equate to free to play due to allowing players to trade experience than a game that is actually free to play in the very real and factual sense that you do not have to pay to play it.
Berrice Silf wrote:It wasnt an additional monetized version, gem store has been there all the time and you can't go to it and oh look instant max toon or buy the latest best flavour of anything - XP boosters - tomes - scrolls arn't just from the store either theyre from event weeks / weekends holiday specials, Freebies for doing things in game ....... not having the hand always out, we want more style. It has always been additional monetization, it was never a necessary part of a buy to play model. It still isn't. That's what makes it additional, not when it was added, it was there when I played well prior to F2P being an option.
And yes, it's exactly hand out we want more. Because that's what their offering. You have the events, rewards and gifts, but then there's the "more" in the store that people pay for because they want it, and the dev has the hand out offering it because they want more cash. Kinda like how there's training here but injectors for those that want it. And ironically SP comes easier here, but this is the game you condemn.
And yes, you can use XP boosters to max out, granted when combined with activity, but then the isk used to buy injectors always originates with some activity. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:22:54 -
[2194] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:you can use XP boosters to max out, granted when combined with activity, but then the isk used to buy injectors always originates with some activity. Yeah takes alot of determination to crack open the wallet and type them into the website to buy your plex !!!
|
Suede
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
104
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 14:33:59 -
[2195] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.
"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."
EDIT: "We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money. Which factually describes a F2P scenario with a content gate. They could have just as easily stopped selling the vanilla game and replaced it with expansion + vanilla packs exclusively to those who didn't already have the game creating the same lack of division for a single purchase. Instead they created a second and third tier between the expansion, grandfathered buy to play players, and new free to play accounts. This just comes off as semantics. Their using the same model and taking the same actions as other F2P games, but aren't because he says so. I think I'm pretty far in the right here not buying it. Basically I think ArenaNet is being about as straightforward there as you believe CCP is being here. No because there is no content gate all is available to play you have restrictions on when you can join the world pvp and have less inventory space on the base model only but on purchasing the expansion all restrictions are lifted. CCP have gradually over the years turned there pay to play model into some kind of cash sucking hybrid, we still have to pay to play but everything that you do in it's base play design can now be speeded up by purchasing in game. Yes, there is a content gate, it's called the Heart of thorns expansion. That's on top of the various level gates imposed on accessing content that isn't present on core accounts. Add to that to the other restrictions and the free account basically amounts to classic restricted F2P. At this point I'm not sure why you're clinging to the idea that a F2P game is somehow not F2P. The website for the game calls it F2P, players call it F2P, gaming news sites call it F2P. A single interview claimed it wasn't, but the rest of the company didn't seem to get the memo since everywhere else it's being marketed as F2P. So are the vast majority of people wrong about what F2P means because one person got to redefine it? Or is that just a positive spin on what some players may see as a negative move invalidating their prior purchase? I'm leaning towards the latter. Suede wrote:I think CCP should make eve online to Free To Pay Model as it just don't justify in paying a subscription fee for time or to wait on skill to train when CCP went and changed way eve is as a model and more to Pay To Win or Get your money out to jump the skill queue.
There just no value for money for money in paying a subscription Fee to Wait on skills when you can just Pay for the Skill there no justification. CCP will do better if they just make Eve to Free to play model instead of milking it Alpha/Beta players
Just a Sad way of CCP to rob all its loyal based players twice over on subscription Fees. There is only 1 type of player who can realistically see skill trading as a better dollar/isk value than skill training: those who are bad at math. Also if you don't want to pay twice over on sub fees, don't pay twice over on sub fees. CCP isn't forcing you to do that in any way shape of form and probably shouldn't need to feel bad that you're throwing money at them because they simply offered a service. As stated prior Eve hasn't changed at all in cost for me since this launched. But then I guess having agency over ones own spending on a luxury is considered rare around here.
Free-to-play (F2P) refers to video games which give players access to a significant portion of their content without paying. There are several kinds of free-to-play games, but the most common is based on the freemium software model. For freemium games, users are granted access to a fully functional game, but must pay microtransactions to access additional content. Free-to-play can be contrasted with pay-to-play, in which payment is required before using a service for the first time.
I don't have a problem with people paying money to progress faster towards the point of a game that they consider to be enjoyable. Now, keep in mind, "Pay-to-Progress" is different from "Pay to Win", where cash shops will have items or perks that can't be obtained without paying. I do not agree with a "Pay-to-Win" model.
It goes hand-in-hand with the work-ethic philosophy of "time = money".
GÇó Let's say you make $15 per hour at your job. GÇó Now, lets say it takes 5 hours to grind the equivalency of $15 worth of in-game items. GÇó You are better off grinding your job for 1 hour to buy those items instead of grinding the game for 5 hours. GÇó This way, you can play the game for the remaining 4 hours instead of grinding it.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1945
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 21:42:56 -
[2196] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:you can use XP boosters to max out, granted when combined with activity, but then the isk used to buy injectors always originates with some activity. Yeah takes alot of determination to crack open the wallet and type them numbers into the website to buy your plex !!! Im so pleased you mentioned activity because i will point you back to one of the first things i said to you, what is the point of even starting something when with no effort you can have everything in the game ? PLEX doesn't originate isk. That should be obvious enough to go without saying. One cannot pay directly to create isk, so any mention of credit card numbers is wholly irrelevant to the time it takes to actually generate isk. I'm not here to judge what people spend their isk or money on though, we apparently have you for that.
Suede wrote:Free-to-play (F2P) refers to video games which give players access to a significant portion of their content without paying. There are several kinds of free-to-play games, but the most common is based on the freemium software model. For freemium games, users are granted access to a fully functional game, but must pay microtransactions to access additional content. Free-to-play can be contrasted with pay-to-play, in which payment is required before using a service for the first time. So looking at this definition, a game that allows access to the entirety of it's base content free of charge for either the client software or continued access would and should be classed as free to play even if a portion of the content is locked behind a paywall of some sort.
I'd call the entirety of the base GW2 game significant unless the content exclusively accessible in HoT manages to somehow completely dwarf the whole vanilla game experience in scale. If the claim is that it does, reducing the base game to being synonymous with a brief trial, then that's different. If not, we have easily defined it as F2P.
Suede wrote:I don't have a problem with people paying money to progress faster towards the point of a game that they consider to be enjoyable. Now, keep in mind, "Pay-to-Progress" is different from "Pay to Win", where cash shops will have items or perks that can't be obtained without paying. I do not agree with a "Pay-to-Win" model.
It goes hand-in-hand with the work-ethic philosophy of "time = money".
GÇó Let's say you make $15 per hour at your job. GÇó Now, lets say it takes 5 hours to grind the equivalency of $15 worth of in-game items. GÇó You are better off grinding your job for 1 hour to buy those items instead of grinding the game for 5 hours. GÇó This way, you can play the game for the remaining 4 hours instead of grinding it. I don't really have an issue either, especially in the case where the positive effects on a personal level get routed back to other players, which is the case here. There is a positive feedback that's obviously supposed to be created, people wanting isk but not SP engage for mutual benefit with those wanting more SP than training allows and in turn either generate isk and promote activity themselves or entice others to do so via PLEX. Fact is both the sub and game activity are still happening, they're just shifting to the people who want to do them the most. |
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
153
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 22:43:12 -
[2197] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:you can use XP boosters to max out, granted when combined with activity, but then the isk used to buy injectors always originates with some activity. Yeah takes alot of determination to crack open the wallet and type them numbers into the website to buy your plex !!! Im so pleased you mentioned activity because i will point you back to one of the first things i said to you, what is the point of even starting something when with no effort you can have everything in the game ? PLEX doesn't originate isk. That should be obvious enough to go without saying. One cannot pay directly to create isk, so any mention of credit card numbers is wholly irrelevant to the time it takes to actually generate isk. I'm not here to judge what people spend their isk or money on though, we apparently have you for that. CCP don't seem to agree with you
Since the collapse of the EVE Gate, humans in New Eden have longed for never-ending piles of ISK. CCP recognizes this demand, and provides PLEX GÇô as a completely legal option for turning your real life cash into precious space bucks.
Source |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1945
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 00:13:59 -
[2198] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:you can use XP boosters to max out, granted when combined with activity, but then the isk used to buy injectors always originates with some activity. Yeah takes alot of determination to crack open the wallet and type them numbers into the website to buy your plex !!! Im so pleased you mentioned activity because i will point you back to one of the first things i said to you, what is the point of even starting something when with no effort you can have everything in the game ? PLEX doesn't originate isk. That should be obvious enough to go without saying. One cannot pay directly to create isk, so any mention of credit card numbers is wholly irrelevant to the time it takes to actually generate isk. I'm not here to judge what people spend their isk or money on though, we apparently have you for that. CCP don't seem to agree with you Since the collapse of the EVE Gate, humans in New Eden have longed for never-ending piles of ISK. CCP recognizes this demand, and provides PLEX GÇô as a completely legal option for turning your real life cash into precious space bucks. Source Sweet, so we're back on semantics over reality. Glad we took this productive turn. Lets just ignore what we know about how PLEX and RMT work due to that statement, even though that's the relevant context of the statement.
|
Berrice Silf
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
155
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 08:08:34 -
[2199] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:you can use XP boosters to max out, granted when combined with activity, but then the isk used to buy injectors always originates with some activity. Yeah takes alot of determination to crack open the wallet and type them numbers into the website to buy your plex !!! Im so pleased you mentioned activity because i will point you back to one of the first things i said to you, what is the point of even starting something when with no effort you can have everything in the game ? PLEX doesn't originate isk. That should be obvious enough to go without saying. One cannot pay directly to create isk, so any mention of credit card numbers is wholly irrelevant to the time it takes to actually generate isk. I'm not here to judge what people spend their isk or money on though, we apparently have you for that. CCP don't seem to agree with you Since the collapse of the EVE Gate, humans in New Eden have longed for never-ending piles of ISK. CCP recognizes this demand, and provides PLEX GÇô as a completely legal option for turning your real life cash into precious space bucks. Source Sweet, so we're back on semantics over reality. Glad we took this productive turn. Lets just ignore what we know about how PLEX and RMT work due to that statement, even though that's the relevant context of the statement. No this is the whole point you just don't grasp, they're not even unabashed about the whole affair that your so vehemently defending as something other than a huge cash grab and making lame excuses to pass it off as anything but what it actually is.
There is no presupposition to there actions and they have sat by watching all this unfold probably laughing regardless of it's implications knowing that once your hooked the first thing your going to need is an easy access route to isk and now skill points. So they're certainly not going to be letting RMT take a big slice of what has probably been the largest generator of cash they have produced even out stripping the plex.
I think if anyone is in need of a reality check its you. Edit : Ever noticed that when you get to something that your silver tongued approach can't explain it's way out of you cry semantics. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1945
|
Posted - 2016.02.25 20:13:49 -
[2200] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:No this is the whole point you just don't grasp, they're not even unabashed about the whole affair that your so vehemently defending as something other than a huge cash grab and making lame excuses to pass it off as anything but what it actually is. No, you're not getting that I never said it wasn't a cash grab. I said it wasn't detrimental, cash grab or not, since CCP getting paid from it doesn't make it inherently bad. I actually detailed the whole idea of this cycling cash in conjunction with PLEX and how well it could work, so I'm not sure how through anything other than not reading my posts and instead working from random assumptions that you would think I don't see the profit motive here.
Berrice Silf wrote:There is no presupposition to there actions and they have sat by watching all this unfold probably laughing regardless of it's implications knowing that once your hooked the first thing your going to need is an easy access route to isk and now skill points. So they're certainly not going to be letting RMT take a big slice of what has probably been the largest generator of cash they have produced even out stripping the plex. Non-CCP RMT was always illegal so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Of course they aren't going to let this or any other mechanic be RMTd. That leaves aside the fact that even if skill injectors were RMTd the only income even potentially lost is the PLEX income from those who want injectors and selling PLEX to afford them, not the extractor or training time income.
Berrice Silf wrote:I think if anyone is in need of a reality check its you. Edit : Ever noticed that when you get to something that your silver tongued approach can't explain it's way out of you cry semantics. There is a big difference between semantics and misrepresentation. You stating that I don't recognize this as a cash grab when I've said as much is just plain misrepresentation. It's a lie in the face of what I've stated. That's not semantics, but nice try.
On the other hand, just taking a line from the blog to derail what you and I both know about how PLEX works is just a semantic argument. Unless you actually believe PLEX creates isk, in which case I'd be wrong calling it semantics instead of simply ignorance regarding PLEX. I'll let you decide which it is. |
|
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.27 20:04:01 -
[2201] - Quote
Tiberius,
Must you always play with your prey?!
|
Emmer Doodle
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.03.08 07:25:08 -
[2202] - Quote
Happy Now?Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nothing is the least bit trashed unless your time only amounted to 220mill SP and nothing more. If that's the case the fault lies squarely on you, not CCP. I'm happy with my best char @ 7 years, 150m SP as I was back at the beginning of October before even the initial announcement. None of what I trained was taken from me, and I have no desire to deny it to anyone else just because the way I got it was mandated at the time. Berrice Silf wrote:what's with your playing dumb approach ?? Rise stated that rapid respeccing of skills was not the stated goal now the first line of the ad is respecing of skills, when helmar released his grovel letter about the money and time it drew a line under all that has previously passed, from 2012 clean slate no under handed tactics, MCTC are not under handed no different than having multiple accounts until now where you can use the slots as farming characters to increase the main or sell. This isn't underhanded. There is no deception involved. Everything is so incredibly straightforward and clear to everyone, so much so that no one denies a profit motive played a hand in this, that the claim of being underhanded doesn't even make any remote sense. Beyond that note how the statement you point out doesn't say the loss mechanic was placed to prevent respecing, just rapidly doing so by introducing loss. It acknowledges that this is a thing people are expected to do with it and as a result their limiting efficiency, which they later raised to make it more usable for that purpose.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1953
|
Posted - 2016.03.09 01:22:32 -
[2203] - Quote
Are my skill sheet and skill queue functioning normally?
|
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1083
|
Posted - 2016.03.19 04:11:19 -
[2204] - Quote
The question here is : why do we even play this game? If we can find the answer then well the got lucky. There database already failing fast. To few online people in this game. from 60k to 20k drop in 4 years. GG. If the had release the god damn WiS project none of this bullshit was ever happen. Now we get this nonsense. The "easy cash grap" tactics. To ensure there "secret future project" will not be unfinished. And there for lets destroyed eve online and cripple the game more to milk the last money out of it before the game gets dark.. And then move on with a new game.
Very st*pid move CCP.
Now what now? Clearly the do not answer because of every (old) player hate this idea. And (new/meta trolls) love it. I do not care TBH because SP do not make you pro. So there is not the harm. The harm is (that little progress) what eve had is totally gone now. Thats what i do not like. No progress means no meaning to stay playing. My sub is in 8 month over then i stop buying subs because i can wait till the finish a better "dlc/upgrade/patch" and just use SP inject to fly that new ship or whatever the release. No need to pay monthly.
Well done CCP |
OutCast EG
Very Industrial Corp. Legion of xXDEATHXx
45
|
Posted - 2016.05.20 14:49:02 -
[2205] - Quote
Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training.
HA HA |
Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
968
|
Posted - 2016.05.20 20:26:45 -
[2206] - Quote
OutCast EG wrote:Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training. HA HA CCP are getting pretty good at contradicting (telling lies) themselves and moving the goal posts as it suits them.
Roll on Dailies - Coming May 24 2016 - SP on the market that wasn't trained by anyone at the "normal rate". Player driven economies (the key to eve design) have been replaced with CCP driven manipulation of the value of SP.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
|
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
284
|
Posted - 2016.06.23 14:58:05 -
[2207] - Quote
Skill Injectors should be a unique item that is awarded to Rookie Pilot's on a special mission they are given after completing all of the Rookie Missions. The Rookie Mission to achieve the Skill Injector would not be simple and would take at least five months of learning mission specific skills in order to complete.
Other areas of the Skill Injector that would need to be upgraded is that Skill Injector's found in Drifter Space, trust me its out there, as well as W-Space would be found in Ghost Sites for both types of space. These types of injectors would provide bonuses when injecting skills into them such as compartmentalized injectors that can hold more skill volume than a normal injector up to cost reduction in skill points lost when transferring.
Watch out for the Black Egg Injector though as its use will cause a skill drain of all skills placed into it.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33959
|
Posted - 2016.06.23 15:00:09 -
[2208] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:OutCast EG wrote:Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training. HA HA CCP are getting pretty good at contradicting (telling lies) themselves and moving the goal posts as it suits them. Roll on Dailies - Coming May 24 2016 - SP on the market that wasn't trained by anyone at the "normal rate". Player driven economies (the key to eve design) have been replaced with CCP driven manipulation of the value of SP. This is the bait and switch I can't seem to convey to people.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
46
|
Posted - 2016.06.23 19:10:32 -
[2209] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:OutCast EG wrote:Quote:ItGÇÖs very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate. Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system GÇô training. HA HA CCP are getting pretty good at contradicting (telling lies) themselves and moving the goal posts as it suits them. Roll on Dailies - Coming May 24 2016 - SP on the market that wasn't trained by anyone at the "normal rate". Player driven economies (the key to eve design) have been replaced with CCP driven manipulation of the value of SP. This is the bait and switch I can't seem to convey to people.
Was it bait and switch?
I re-upped my accounts just to liquidate a lot of them. 230 extracted so far, probably somewhere around 600 more left to do - and that's before I touch my 5 "mains"...
It's not really a "Bait and Switch" that is going on here, but what they are doing could seriously drain PLEX AND without putting in the huge desire for players to buy ISK. (Err, I mean buy PLEX to conver to ISK).
This was probably not a great idea in the long run. Old players will get fed up one day and liquidate most of their skills. Those chars will then have fixed roles (much of what CCP wants), but once that char wants to go back to something else they will not have the skills for it. So perhaps a loss of a old timer.
New players will not "Value" earnings as much either, as now they will look at it along the lines of "if I buy PLEX, to get ISK, I can buy INJECTORS", so now SP has a direct $/SP Ratio... Not idea.
For now I think it's okay, Game still has a lot of life in it I think, let them take risk. At worst they make a lot of extra cash before they drop EVE, at best the game changes and new blood joins.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 .. 74 :: [one page] |