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CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:08:00 - [1] We have some interesting changes to Khanid and Nosferatus planned for Revelations 2.2 and it's already on the test server. Check out Revised Nosferatu Mechanics and Khanid mk 2 on the Test Server and then go try it out! Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Chronus26 Gallente Team Laser Explosion Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:17:00 - [2] Realy interesting on the NOS changes. I think you've chosen a very good solution that should keep everybody happy. Look forward to seeing how it all works out. -----
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:22:00 - [3] Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 30/07/2007 14:23:17 Fendahl, would you be so kind to tell us whoever decided to spoil Damnation that badly so we can add him to our KOS list? It just won't fit. NOS changes do sound good though ---
Phillipe d'Rothschild	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:25:00 - [4] Edited by: Phillipe d''Rothschild on 30/07/2007 14:30:54 I cannot seem to find a Test patch for my client. I think I'm running running version 3.21.35183. Any help? Found: http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/test/evepatch35183-35248_test.exe checking to see if this helps.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:27:00 - [5] Damnation change = bad, it lacks the speed to get in range to make its HAM bonus even remotely worth while, as for boosting its already insane tank why? TBH the DPS on the damnation with HAM's is so poor it makes the ship useless for anything, mines going to be going on the market before the nerf :( --------- Liberty Rogues Website
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:28:00 - [6] I like the NOS changes, it wont affect my Curse or Pilgrim too much, I'll just be fitting a neutraliser or two in order to kill tanks properly. Khanid changes: Well I hated them to start with, but then I realised how good these ships are going to be, closerange hardcore tanking and missiles. Nice. ============================================
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:28:00 - [7] lolcurse/pilgrim. Great job nerfing ships that get a NOS bonus while leaving lolsetups like a nosdomi intact.
Sylek Amarr Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:32:00 - [8] The Nos changes sound cool, will be interesting to see how they change things. I think the Khanid changes are pretty bad, restricting the bonus to one type of missiles wasn't a very good idea. You don't see ships with bonus to autocannons or pulse lasers, then why should the Khanid ships have bonuses to only close range weapons? HAMs and rockets are currently unfavoured because they require you to get very close while offering a very slight damage bonus when compared to other missiles with superior range.
Terranid Meester Knights Hospitalier	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:34:00 - [9] So I guesss the backstory of the Khanid having the most advanced shield generators outside of Caldari Space should be changed now? Or am I missing something?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:36:00 - [10] Edited by: N1fty on 30/07/2007 14:36:10 Originally by: Terranid Meester So I guesss the backstory of the Khanid having the most advanced shield generators outside of Caldari Space should be changed now? Or am I missing something? Yep and the bit where it says the Sacri is a flexible ship is just not true anymore! Closerange missile spam and tank only... EDIT: spelling. ============================================

Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:36:00 - [11] This will screw with Curse tactics a bit, but we'll adapt (I think). The problem that concerns me here isn't that, but the close-range missile only bonuses to the ships. In effect, you're locking them into a singular fighting style by forcing the bonuses to only apply to those modules - its one thing to say "CPU will be tight on a standard/heavy missile setup", that's fine, if it is tight and the player wants to attempt a long-range fit, let them try. Might as well build in the rocket or HAM launchers for the players. 50m Sig Contest!
Amanda Zeherah Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:37:00 - [12] Nice well-thought changes that will add some flavour to Amarr (Khanid) ships... Will have to train missiles now. NOS changes sounds ok... Also, in a battle, I dont think the GENERAL will be in the front line... in other words, is it intended that a FLEET command ship to fight at close range (even with long-range HAM fitted)?
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:39:00 - [13] interesting changes. Gonna be interesting to see how ppl change setups to reflect the new way nos works. nosmyrm n nosdomi look to be out the window . & looks like only real defence against tackling frigates for bs' (being able to nos em dry so cant scramble & mwd indefinately) is gone as well. A question on that though, will the noschanges affect NPCs as well or just for PvP? Im not sure I like it how it reads, but if it works for the better then all the better for it. Khanid changes look...interesting. Since i dont fly em i dunno ifits for better or worse but certainly its a move away from the current confused hybrid khanid ships seem to be. Just hope both changes get fully tested & feedback is listened to with due attention.
Amy Robbins	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:41:00 - [14] Thanks for ******* up the curse/pilgrim completely, any planned changes to them or are you just going to leave it as yet another useless ship?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:42:00 - [15] Edited by: N1fty on 30/07/2007 14:44:20 Originally by: Sakura Nihil This will screw with Curse tactics a bit, but we'll adapt (I think). The problem that concerns me here isn't that, but the close-range missile only bonuses to the ships. In effect, you're locking them into a singular fighting style by forcing the bonuses to only apply to those modules - its one thing to say "CPU will be tight on a standard/heavy missile setup", that's fine, if it is tight and the player wants to attempt a long-range fit, let them try. Might as well build in the rocket or HAM launchers for the players. Yeah if CPU is tight with longrange missiles then most people will fit closerange anyway, the HAM and Rocket specific bonuses might be a bit redundant. Originally by: Amanda Zeherah Nice well-thought changes that will add some flavour to Amarr (Khanid) ships... Will have to train missiles now. NOS changes sounds ok... Also, in a battle, I dont think the GENERAL will be in the front line... in other words, is it intended that a FLEET command ship to fight at close range (even with long-range HAM fitted)? A good leader always leads from the front . And commanders would be expected to be in the hardest ships, just so they can 'stick around' for longer. Originally by: Amy Robbins Thanks for ******* up the curse/pilgrim completely, any planned changes to them or are you just going to leave it as yet another useless ship? Nos serveral different targets at once and Neut the guy you are trying to break the tank of. Its called adaptation and any half decent Curse pilot could see this minor tactical tweak. ============================================
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:45:00 - [16] Uh, damn, glad I didn't spend the last month training for the curse/pilgrim. Because they'll suck now. Of all the suggested good solutions (poison the chalice, sig radius, tracking, etc), they pick a crappy one. At least the curse/pilgrim will suck as bad as everyone else's recons again! God, this thread delivers! Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
deadok Amarr Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:47:00 - [17] hehe, we need a HAM bonus on curse, since 1 hi slot will be fitted with neut, 1 with nos (who needs more?) but that is nice idea - to kill da tank thou shalt loose da tank.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:50:00 - [18] Nos changes are welcome. But wouldn't it make more sense to make it % based on the target ship alone. The restriction based on % of own cap is gonna mean nos is only really useful in passive shield tanked ships. Drake ftw ?
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:51:00 - [19] The NOS change is sort of up the right alley but not exactly what I'd do, but overall I guess I'm okay with it. I just hope it stays useful for killing capital ships, anyway. And yeah, with the Khanid ships, I'm okay with the armor tanking missile boat thing, but please, don't give the ships a capacitor recharge bonus if their base cap is going to be extra poor to begin with like how the Vengeance is now, if that is in fact what was planned already. For the frigates, I'd much rather have a decent capacitor from the start (Vengeance) or normal resists (Malediction) and a missile velocity bonus instead. That way, you'd have a better chance at hitting things with rockets, but the range still wouldn't really be that great, just pretty good.
Darian Hazedango Dawn of a new Empire Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:51:00 - [20] How would multiple NOS on a single target work? Would it just bring the two caps to their equilibrium faster? If so there would be a great amount of diminishing returns for having more than one. And if the equilibrium is measured in percent, surely the transfer amount can't be the same, is it? NOSing a frig of 1% of it's cap won't give a BS 1% of its cap, right? Sigh, I had my ideal setup too. I guess this is just going to drive up the cost of cap injectors.

Beef Hardslab Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Dav Varan Nos changes are welcome. But wouldn't it make more sense to make it % based on the target ship alone. The restriction based on % of own cap is gonna mean nos is only really useful in passive shield tanked ships. Drake ftw ? That's what I was thinking - passive tank drake capbuster lol Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:53:00 - [22] This is the best dev blog in ages. I can't tell you how happy you have made this Banana. Oh Gawd, armour tanking missile boats and the nossing domi gets a thump in the knackers. All my Christmasses have come at once.
LeviUK hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:59:00 - [23] Both changes are interesting.. watch the Khanid ship prices rocket (pun intended) and the Curse/Pilgim prices will drop. As someone who regularly flies a dual-rep pilgrim and a speed-fitted curse (the only ship I speed fit), I'm a little disappointed that both setups will be rendered useless (no I refuse to use neuts and rely on however many cap charges I can fit in my cargo hold). On the flip side, the Sacrilege in it's current state on Sisi is rather nice and not having to be as concerned about Nos sucking on my own ships is somewhat comforting. I would perhaps suggest, at the risk of being ridiculed, that the bonuses for the Curse/Pilgrim are change to compensate for the fact that what was regarded as their main bonuses are now lessened with the Nos changes. In fact, I'd argue that it makes the Amarr recons the weakest of any race, there are no comparable limits after all on the web/scramble/jamming bonuses of the other ships.
Mr Krosis The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:00:00 - [24] Edited by: Mr Krosis on 30/07/2007 15:01:40 One thing that stood out to me. Previously, the only Tech1 frigates that had a +5% resist / level were the Punisher and the Merlin. Previously, all T2 versions of these ships lost their resist all bonus to gain the 15/10% resist "bonus" that all assault ships have built in. Now the Vengeance is getting this resist bonus back on the AF skill, combined with the best natural T2 armor resists (+EX/KN). Could we either change it to a rep amount bonus or get the Hawk's boost amount bonus changed to a resist all bonus? As it is currently proposed, the Vengeance will have 70 / 85 / 71.875 / 51.25 base armor resist when fully skilled. My personal choice would be to drop the "dummy" +15/10% resist bonus that T2 ships get anyway, and give all AFs back their missing T1 bonus. -- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
Keira Black	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:00:00 - [25] In my opinion its all good..cept the nos change, the curse and pilgrim wont be of any use if they cant do what they do now...its like nerfing one ship and leaving all other ships in its class fine... curse and pilgrim dont realyl have weapons, just nos and drones, the nos is what makes them an effective ship. the way ive read this nerf is that u can only nos ur opponent till ur cap is effectively equal, tghen u have to use ur own cap to destroy theres. the curse atm has a very bad capacitor as it is. sorry but i dont like the changes to the nos, i liked the signiature radius idea one better. nos works better on ships bigger than its class. good on ships in its own class and worse on ships smaller than its class. meaning medium nos will work efficiently on a large ship ok on a medium sized ship and not so good on a frigate. this would work well not only for the amarr recons but for any ship using nos. a cruiser wont get uber sucked by a nos domi as bad as a raven would. what do u think of that?
Allan Robertson Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:01:00 - [26] Humm I guess it was only a matter of time before the Nos came face to face with the nerf bat, I'm not really that mich botherd about the changes, I'm just glad I don't take part in PvP in this game, it would drive you mad all these changes to get used to. --- Say YES! to Mining Cargo Holds on barges!
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Darian Hazedango How would multiple NOS on a single target work? Would it just bring the two caps to their equilibrium faster? If so there would be a great amount of diminishing returns for having more than one. And if the equilibrium is measured in percent, surely the transfer amount can't be the same, is it? NOSing a frig of 1% of it's cap won't give a BS 1% of its cap, right? Sigh, I had my ideal setup too. I guess this is just going to drive up the cost of cap injectors. If I'm running a neut and a MWD on my nanocurse . I'll want to NOS some other ships than my current NEUT target in order to feed the MWD and NEUT. Say I am on 30% cap as is my NEUT target [A] whos tank I want to break, then I NOS two more guys [B,C] who have 100% cap, I will take cap away from those two guys until my cap reaches theirs. So probably a meeting point at 40%. Clearly this will work on a per NOS basis, so ship B might drop to my 40% cap level quickly, while C has more cap and so takes longer. The NOS on B will stop transferring before that on C. Nossing A wont have any effect on anyone because if the NEUT has done its job then he will be on 0% cap. So by spreading several NOS around I can ensure a constant cap drain. ============================================
LukAsh Amarr LFC FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:08:00 - [28] Edited by: LukAsh on 30/07/2007 15:11:23 Ok, overall NOS should be nerfed somehow, sure... Tho the way its described in the blog is just weird. When you NOS a player and your cap rises the NOS get less effective.. you have 100% cap... he has 100% cap? This will be a quite a nerf for Amarr Pilgrim/Curse, they will need to now (need, while before it was an option) to fit neutralizers. Makes the fit less flexible, etc, etc... Maybe give more damage to Pilgrim/Curse then? Increase slightly their dronebays... they will need to use more costly fit to be able to break the tanks. Khanid MK2.. finally !! But... Damnation... Someone has been smoking something good I see # Fitting: 440tf (no change), 1300mw (-210mw) <- huge nerf, where is the buff then ?? Sacrilege... Could someone please try to make a projected (realistic) DPS graph for the old and new setups... please? Malediction... # 5% bonus to missile EM damage per Interceptor level (no change) Why only EM? why? Why???? Other Khanid have bonuses to all kinds of damage dealt with missiles, why this exception? ___ Selling T2 BPCs and Cap Ships, Components & Items.
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:11:00 - [29] Ok, the curse is now dead. I dont even fly one, i hate fighting them - but this is a stupid change. 1 Nos isn't a problem, it's people stacking nos that becomes an issue - once again ccp doesn't listen to the real complaints and just opt's to nerf everything in sight. Khanid mark II: Seems good, i like the idea 9although you broke my vengeance :( ) one thing though, stop going backwards with interceptors - make the lock range on the malediction longer, its absolution stupid that a ceptor cant lock up to the full range of a normal t1 warp disruptor. It defies the role of an intercetor. This new maledtion will be good for getting in close and fighting, which 'ceptors 'aint meant to do, the whole point is that they hold targets down while larger ships get there lock and EW on the taget ship.
Jotan Veer HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:11:00 - [30] Edited by: Jotan Veer on 30/07/2007 15:13:00 Quote: The Heretic has similar bonuses to the Flycatcher, but the rockets only damage bonus and the low CPU makes rockets more suitable than standard missiles. The Explosion velocity bonus makes the Heretic better for taking down high speed targets vs. low speed, low signature radius targets for the Flycatcher. Whoever wrote that smokes some really good stuff, please share. No one in their right mind ever fits flycatchers with standard missile launchers BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE THE CPU NOR THE POWERGRID to be able to fit a rack of (T2) standard launchers + bubble launcher + anything else. Either give the flycatcher more CPU/PG so it would be able to fit standards or stop implying that the new Heretic will be anything but superior to the Flycatcher. HUN Corp. recruitment status: frozen

FemmeFatal Control Theory	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:13:00 - [31] Can ts/db/etc faction neuts get the same ratio cap/neut ratio as medium unstable neuts :D
Ladyah Liandri A GmbH	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:15:00 - [32] Just looking forward to fly Malediction and Vengeance again.
1Of9 Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:15:00 - [33] Question: How will this affect a capital? Example: A carrier is bubbled by a dictor. Atm, best defence would be to put 1 or 2 NOS in the dictor to kill his MWD and send the dogs after him. But now, if the carrier cap is above 70% and dictor "tanking" the cap @ 55% ... nos wont work anymore?
Zkillz kun Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:17:00 - [34] these nos changes are great imo. they didn't make the curse useless, they just made it so you have to actually think when you fly one. instead of being able to fly around at 4k/s+ and just destroy every tank within 30k now you have to manage your capacitor and targets according your cap. it shouldn't be that hard to maintain a low cap % especially when you are running you mwd learn to adapt people. on the khanid ship, they look cool but i think the missile boni's should be give to every missile type. it will make it like useing lasers. you wont gbe able to fit long range(beams) without completely destroying your tank _____
Serilla The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:20:00 - [35] Originally by: 1Of9 Question: How will this affect a capital? Example: A carrier is bubbled by a dictor. Atm, best defence would be to put 1 or 2 NOS in the dictor to kill his MWD and send the dogs after him. But now, if the carrier cap is above 70% and dictor "tanking" the cap @ 55% ... nos wont work anymore? Fit neuts and kill their cap in one cycle? __________________
Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:21:00 - [36] Huzzah!!!
Keira Black	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:23:00 - [37] sorry but the nos idea is just not good. it would be like flying a BS without guns. or guns that dont work.
Sorted EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:24:00 - [38] /me boos and hisses at the NOS changes. Mainly due to the major detremental effect it will have on the NOS speciality ships (Curse, Pilgrim, Bhaalg etc) I can see some reasoning behind it (Big ships wiping a frigs cap - which they still can with 1 Neut), but its been in the game for years - forum whining seems to be at a peak and focused on NOS recently. BAM NERF BAT>.. whats next ? Dampners? I bet 50M. The great many late changes remind me very painfully off SOE and SWG. poor show. If you insist on the changes the NOS dedicated ships need an extra boost - same as the ECM dedicated ships got during that Nerf. ......... Sorted
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:25:00 - [39] Nos changes seem fine to me, even if it basically kill any possiblity for the Pilgrim to ambush a big target. Khanid changes are moving in the right direction, too, but there is two thing I don't agree with: - First, a bonus to only close-range missiles. That's only a half bonus. Are you going to restrict gallente damage bonuses to blasters only? Caldari bonuses to long-range missiles only? That what you'd have to do, for things to be balanced. And that would be carzy. So why restrict khanid bonuses to short-range missiles only? - Second, the Damnation: that is a fleet command ship, not a field command ship, and not an all-out assault platform. A fleet command ship is supposed to keep it's distances with enemy tacklers, interdiction bubbles and the like, not wade into them! I say this ship shouldn't get bonuses related to close-range combat. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:29:00 - [40] I've noticed that you're giving Khanid ships a bonus to close-range missiles only, and this seems to be a common complaint among the responses here. Given that, perhaps you should double the aforementioned bonuses to make up for the fact that you're limited to short-range missiles only? Just a thought. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION \| Forum Whiners - Unite!

m4jor dis4ster Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:30:00 - [41] When I rat I use a dual repping myrmidon with 4 medium nos which allows me to perma run the second rep should I need it. So my one question regarding the NOS nerf. How will this affect NPCs? Do they have cap levels or is nossing an NPC no longer going to provide cap?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Tar om Another victory for interceptor pilots. Am I the only person who enjoys flying battleships outside a massive blob? You don't need to be in a massive blob for your battleship to have an escort vessel. And there's nothing stopping you fitting a neutraliser or some ECM. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Clean Acceptable Losses	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:31:00 - [43] Oh yeha great Just continue fixing what works fine ... i just switched form an Arazu to a Curse so thanx for the waste of those 25 days You guys actualy consider there r peeps out there who wanne solo pvp and not blob around ? Sure i dont want the "i win" ship to pown and bbq every1 and the Curse in its current state cant do that. So maybe u wanne think about giving the Curse bonuses cause when i got like 60% cap left after my enemies cap is dry at the current state it will be useless when trying even on a dumb stabber or thorax that has 60% cap left with those changes. In other words all t1 cruiser > curse, but hey amarr was to uber anyway right ? ;) Lets see what comes next ...running on stations got nerfed to walking cuz of bumb at docking points ? Important bugs now fixed !
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:36:00 - [44] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 30/07/2007 15:40:55 Well, changes like these seperate the real (PvP'ing) men from the fotm babies.. EVE, harsh world, adapt or die, carebear bashing.. etc. I hope these phrases ring a bell. Once on the receiving side, one can really show is he's full of mettle. So stop the unfounded complaining and adapt! Actually I would have favoured a different approach, but this one is definitely best for large Nos against frigates issues. Apart from that, I don't think that Nos should be the way to kill capitals. Seems kinda stupid to me. The only thing I'm worried about is the still overpowered Drake and the possibility to use a neut/nos combo on passive shielded tanks. Perhaps that'll be the next fotm. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:38:00 - [45] Anyway thanks ccp You just killed the Bhaalgorn, Curse, Pilgrim every NOS using ship around. Havent amarr sufferd enough.. ? ->My Vids<-
Vaedian GER Excidium.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:38:00 - [46] Cute, now I can trash my Pilgrim and start soloing Battleships in an Inty. Good job CCP.
Niedar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:42:00 - [47] Good changes except for nos thats just pathetic. ------------------
Leigh Goslin	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Leigh Goslin on 30/07/2007 15:43:32 Edited by: Leigh Goslin on 30/07/2007 15:43:16 hmm
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:44:00 - [49] Awesome, now Minmatar ships are going to be even MORE Powerful because they can simply fit NOS and a MWD to burn up their own caps so they can continue to use NOS as though it were never nerfed whilst all ships that require cap to function are screwed. As an aside, I'm now glad I trained for the Rapier instead of the Curse, cause the Curse just got ruined. Nice job guys! ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets don't.
Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:48:00 - [50] I have looked at the changes and here's my two cents: Khanid Changes: I don't fly them but I do like the sound of it. As other have stated your guys are kind of pigeon holing khanid ships into close range uber tanks. The result I see of this is that they will be direct competitors to blaster boats, but blaster boats get bonuses that can apply to rails ... if they can fit them that is. They should be interesting though... By the sounds of it a khanid HAM boat could go toe to toe with a demios ... and likely win due to the uber tanking. very very interesting. NOS Changes: Thank god. I fly a NOS domi and its, to be honest, overpowered. Really. To the Curse pilots out there complaining, that ship was way overpowered. They are insta-runaway targets. I.e. you see one, you run away. You can complain as much as you like but they were in all honesty overpowered. The result of these change I think is that people are going to fit allot more Neuts ... or cap recharge damaging units along with boosters. (reduce your cap to zero and suck away ... then if you need cap turn on the booster for a cycle). So now its going to be Neut Domis instead of NOS domis. A good thing I think. Well see. Good job CCP. Glad to see you guys are addressing some of the really old imbalances.

Bonny Lee Caldari God's Army Corp OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Wizzkidy Nice work...now I have to train missiles up and forget about my 8million in gunnery People in these forums have TOLD you the problem with ammar yet you ignore This game bores me every day with the stuff you dev's come up with. Amaar whined about their damage types etc. ^^ now ccp changed so you have more options but not the way you would love it. Perhaps you learn that whining doenst result in the solution you desire.
BalderDK	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:51:00 - [52] Edited by: BalderDK on 30/07/2007 15:52:27 I don't like the changes to the noz it should be based on amount of cap AND percentage of cap, so a curse can nos a bs below 50% cap even if the curse has more than 50% cap my point here being lets say a curse has 2000 cap and when he is at 1000cap ergo 50% the bs he is nossing what has 8000cap cant go below 4000cap atm why would he not be able to nos the bs that has 8000cap down to 1000? Anyway the other changes are kinda okay imo IF and ONLY IF we get some turret slots back on, let ppl choose for them selvf, take the eagle and the vulture, both have same amount of turret and launcher, and are still shield tankers, but only gets bonus to turrets. But i would like to see a change to the interceptor and vengance because they will alwayse need to go into web range with these new changes, to do some damage, so you might wanna make the dmg bonus affect rockets and light missiles, or give the retribution another mid slot so it can tackle. Or give a range bonus to the rockets
RoCkEt X Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:52:00 - [53] I like the nos changes. now if capital ships get ganked then the nos wont completely hump them. tbh i dont personally care about the changes to khanid, but the nos is a change i like. one question no-one has asked yet: What about the effects of multuple ships nossing a single ship. Example. 3 nos domi's VS Carrier 2 of the domi's have full cap, the third has 45% cap and is attempting to tank the carrier, how low would the carrier's cap go? down to 45, or would nos have no effect because some of the ships nossing it have 100%? dosent that beg the question: If i fly carrier, my gangmate is in an inty, he nos's me and his cap is still 100%, does this mean that if the enemy nos me, because he has 100% cap, thier nos will be rendered useless by an inty thats not even on thier side? Plz answer. i am half curious, and half wondering if my alt should specialize in nossing interceptors for the purpose of making my carrier's cap invulnerable to nosferatu. If u CBA to read what i wrote and u dont know the answers anyway, for all u 'capital killers' capital ships just got ALOT harder to kill.
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:53:00 - [54] NOS QUESTION: How does a nosferatu work on NPCs now? Nos is not used just in PvP, you know. It would have been nice if there were some mention of if they will even work on NPCs now, since they don't really have cap to lose. I was under the impression that nossing reduced their shield boosting and armor repair. Will nos continue to work pretty much exactly the same on NPCs, or will spare high slots on PvE setups be a lot less useful now? Khanid range? Wow, I just don't understand how you can limit weapon effectiveness to a single system on the Sacrilege and Damnation. They just aren't fast enough for that. The Malediction and Heretic I can understand due to their speed, though even that makes them too predictable in combat. The Vengeance I'd think may not be fast enough, sort of caught in between. The Sac having no turrets is a little scary, too. Are the Vengeance, Sacrilege, and Damnation getting any kind of agility boost so they can turn more effectively? Even extra speed doesn't help much if you can't maneuver. Also, as armor tanks, they can't exactly stock up on speed or agility modules in lows. Blaster ships at least have the option of fitting rails and typically more/better drones. Speaking of drones, I think I would have slightly boosted the Curse and Pilgrim drone bays or bonuses to make up for nos being harder to use. I probably would have liked to see a little extra drone bay on the Sac, too, to make up for its lack of range. Plus, the bulk of NPC ships now are smart enough to keep a decent range. With slower ships and the NPC scatter effect, it's going to take a lot of tanking and slogging from one ship to the next during missions. In effect, that makes these ships sort of useless for mission running, since it will increase the time needed to complete missions.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:53:00 - [55] This is a huge boost to projectile guns and missiles. And a huge nerf to amarr. Since the new NOS will balance the cap between the 2 ships who are engaging, the one that cant attack without cap will die. If you have a passive tank (shield or even armor) it will be even more apparant. The amount leeched will be very high when you have no cap yourself (and dont need any). And the other part cant take any back. The amarr ships wich are very cap dependant will have tough times.
Graedlav	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:54:00 - [56] CCP... uve changed man, u used to be cool :P
Lumy Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Wizzkidy Nice work...now I have to train missiles up and forget about my 8million in gunnery People in these forums have TOLD you the problem with ammar yet you ignore This game bores me every day with the stuff you dev's come up with. What can I say... well, Ammar are new Matar. (At least required-skill-wise )
Femaref Caldari examined Inc. Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:01:00 - [58] In my oppinion, it would be better if the nos would leech energy if you have LESS cap then the enemy, as nos normaly is used to maintain something.
Wolfgang Jager Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:01:00 - [59] NOS changes = massively bad idea, way to tackle a very very minor problem with many good proposed solutions and pick the worst possible and implement game-wide sweeping changes. Scrap the proposed NOS changes entirely and pick one of the more reasonable options - diminishing returns, tracking etc. As it stands your changes will profoundly alter the small gang side of the game; perma-tanks that stabilize at 30% cap or so will become the norm - and virtually impossible to nos since the attackers will have to get below that cap before it does anything.
Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:02:00 - [60] Can a dev answer the following? How will the change to Nosferatu work against NPC targets? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru

Cardice Makar Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:03:00 - [61] First: I'm a curse pilot, and I endorse these changes... It's really really easy to work around them. Just keep your cap injectors on hand and let them burn by nos, part of the way into the battle, make sure you switch on your neuts and injectors because your nos are going to start eating cap. Big deal. If you can't come up with interesting solutions to these issues, you shouldn't fly recons. They're supposed to be combat support ships not cookie-cutter 'wtfpwn'-gang annihilators. To the others... wow. Just... wow. And people laughed that I spec'd Amarr/Caldari. [wait... yes, laughing is still a viable option] Also... how does this effect drones? They have 1 cap, and I assume it recharges fairly quick, so they should always be able to nos but if they didn't recharge normally, there'd be issues. Interesting indeed.
Darcha Republic University	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:07:00 - [62] I cannot believe u finally went ahead and changed it. NOS has been around a while and while I agree that there is very little disadvantage in using them, small highspeed orbitting ships will now definately kill a BS too easy. Sure it still takes long but I'm never gonna kill an inty attacking my bs if he keeps his range (outside webber) unless MAYBE with t2 warriors or so but he can still pop em and then I'm gone. with NOS I can at least slow em down. this new nos will be useless cross-class. for BS vs BS it sounds reasonable tho. And I still think my original idea solves the NOS problem a hell of alot better. ______________________________________ "There are NO bugs in EVE, just oversights" ----- Oveur and TomB, EvE fanfest 2006
Miss CJB Gallente In White Suits	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:11:00 - [63] i have to say, overall i like these changes noss definatly needed a nerf, i would have prefered the sig radious one, but any nurf is good (yess i am a curse piolet). still no love for the apoc though?
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:12:00 - [64] I'm thinking this through a bit more, and to be honest I'm starting to think this form of nos nerf isn't the right way to go - either basing it on sig-radius or the target's capacitor levels is the correct choice in my view. Let's look at the best uses of nos - it kills the cap of interceptors, breaks speed tanks and reduces the amount of time a shield or armor tank can run, and uses no cap in the process. With it being sig-based, MWDing interceptors and nanoships would still be hurt hard by the nerf and be forced to use injectors or use afterburners (lol speed limit? ) to tackle, but without high speeds in play the smaller a ship is the better it will do against the heavy or medium nos. The latter suggestion might mean that while each size nos sucks at a different rate and range, like a stacking penalty on the damage mods there's a maximum percentage you could reduce the capacitor of the ship to. Say, 1 nos stops sucking when it gets down to 25% of its target's max capacity, 2 nos would be 15%, 3 would be 10%, and so on down until an asymptote of say 5%. Get the idea? The fact that I'm still trying to figure out if the announced nos nerf is a good thing or bad thing after an hour of thought is usually a bad sign. 50m Sig Contest!
Vitrael Warriors of the Einherjar Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:13:00 - [65] Nos changes, for Amarr: Good! You guys never have enough cap anyway. for Gallente: Ha! Now you're forced not to fly 6 nod Myrmidons / Dominixes. Are you going to whine or just fit neuts? for Caldari: I guess this nerf doesn't really affect you guys all that much other than to help the friggies out. for we Minmatar: \0/ Time to start fitting nos/neut and wtfpwning cap while continuing to rock socks with our projectiles.
Gentlewind	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:14:00 - [66] Thank god you have finally nerfed the curse they were far too much fun I can now go back to fleet engagements where I pass the time wondering if I'll get my own km before or after everything loads. (sarcasm btw) Just a quick suggestion, if your so determined too kill anything remotely fun about the game just have 1 ship with exactly the same modules I'm sure that would solve the server problems as well
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:14:00 - [67] Ok, on a more constructive note: Fendahl, first of, if you decided that the nossed energy amount (40% of perfect BS cap regeneration, on an un-named module I'd like to add) is too much, why don't you just reduce it a bit as a first step? I mean, that would seem most logical and obvious to me. Anyway, I'd like to offer an alternative, or at least a bit food for thought. Would it be possible to make Nos capacitor-relative based in a slightly different way? Say you have a base energy transfer amount, and the effective transfer amount is modified by the relation between your cap and the target's cap. But you can't go above 100%, of course. Examples: Base transfer amount:100 Your cap: 2000 Target cap: 4000 Effective transfer amount: 100 (because 4000/2000=2, but capped at 1, so 100% of base amount) Base transfer amount:100 Your cap: 4000 Target cap: 2000 Effective transfer amount: 50 (because 2000/4000=0,5 and 0,5*100=50) Base transfer amount:100 Your cap: 4000 Target cap: 800 Effective transfer amount: 20 Base transfer amount:30 Your cap: 1200 Target cap: 150 Effective transfer amount: 3,75 (rounded up or down) Effectively this wouldn't make Nos a simple ON/OFF mechanic like with the now implemented cap% comparison, it would include a diminishing returns mechanic and an effective size-relevant adaption. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:14:00 - [68] Could we get some more powergrid on the domi so i can actually fit bs sized weapons and some semblance of a tank now?
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:16:00 - [69] Why for the love of good you add 1 thing and open so many many cans of worms ? Khanid MKII Good changes overall even thou the Damanation whit HAMs is just not gonna cut it and the Nanosacri isn't the Tanked Missile aka more minmatar then Amarr Nosferatu Curse/Pilgrim nerfed but not 2 badly Nos Domi not that nerfed . Interceptors : Hurray we are now total fuking invincibile . Now an skilled ceptor can render a BS imobile for hours whidout the BS being able do do anything , NOS was popular amonst BS pilots beacuse it gave them extra cap and the only whay to stop ceptors dead in their tracks now you need to be a special BS to do that Supercapitals/Capitals : Hurray , small gangs boo you don't have dreads you can't kill a capital thank you . /irony off Please for the love of god implement a staking nerf to NOS but NOT the change you are proposing . your change will only give us more serverside pain and lag and more whine topics then ever before . Test it a lot before you bring it to TQ . And please answer this question : How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut goon = A fool, or someone considered silly
Zikka The Establishment	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:18:00 - [70] The falcon got made useless with the ECM change, I think the pilgrim/curse is fairing better than it did. Overall I like the new changes, a real choice between Nos and Neuts, less need to fit a cap injector on every ship just to fight Nos. Amarr finally get some flexibility and have the choice of training up an alternate weapon system. Caldari can cross train armour tanking and Amarr and have a solo pvp option that doesn't waste their missile SP. One thing I will say though (and this is as a Caldari pilot) is that you don't need to make the bonus rocket/ham specific. With the restricted grid and cpu people will struggle to fit anything larger and will have to make compromises. In hybrid guns Gallente get damage bonuses, caldari get range bonuses In missiles Amarr get damage bonuses, Caldari get range (flight time/velocity/etc) bonuses. This sounds pretty fair to me and tends to encourage one particular use without making it the only option. Has anyone thought about switching one of the Ammarr battleships to match as well? They all seem to do the same thing at the moment so it might make sense for Khanid to refit one (perhaps the tier 2 one?) with their new ideas...It might need a change to torps and cruise though considering torps at the moment have higher fitting requirements than cruise despite being the short range weapon...

Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:20:00 - [71] Pretty poor nos changes. Dedicated nos ships should not suffer as greatly in the nerf as for ex. nos domi. I'm disappointed CCP did not realise this. Hopefully upon review they'll work on it - obviously it was notable curse was not listed in the khanid ship changes. Khanid changes look good, not sure about cutting back the range, that seems pointless to me and a "omg what if it's as good as caldari" hack bolted on at the end of a meeting. Nothing wrong with the whole idea of giving amarr pilots something extra to train so I disagree with those whines. A-WAR might be Recruiting!
G Dabak Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:23:00 - [72] If you do this, the curse and pilgrim at least need an energy neutralizer cap bonus so neuts sustain better. It's not just about some ideal of being able to drain while not running out of cap yourself, you need to actually hold cap at/near 0 and fight off cap boosting which is only made harder by the 12 sec ROF (twice that of nos).
Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:26:00 - [73] This is a hell of a boost for gate camps . One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Sucram Amarr North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:27:00 - [74] Thank god i can fly other things then amarr. -------------------------------------------- "From pain comes truth, let me show you the truth"
Dr Aryandi Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:28:00 - [75] Originally by: General Apocalypse And please answer this question : How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut Take off your Nos, replace it with a Neut... That's what I'm planning to do... Blueprint Research Service Available See thread for details.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:32:00 - [76] Originally by: Cypherous Damnation change = bad, it lacks the speed to get in range to make its HAM bonus even remotely worth while, as for boosting its already insane tank why? TBH the DPS on the damnation with HAM's is so poor it makes the ship useless for anything, mines going to be going on the market before the nerf :( No, its not. The change is good, with even only a modicum of skills the DPS on the hams will outstrip your previous DPS with pulse lasers. And its not like the Damnation wasnt the lowest DPS of all the command ships ANYWAY. All the changes are good, 100% good. Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious good.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:32:00 - [77] Originally by: General Apocalypse How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut [/b] You answered it yourself. Fit a neutralizer. Klick, 500 energy gone, ceptor dead. Also: maybe don't fly alone in a BS if you're not fit for it? _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:35:00 - [78] First - You have got to exempt Amarr recons from the nos nerf. They were specifically designed to do what you're nerfing :\ Second - Reduce the PG use of neutralizers to bring them in line with nos. I always fit a heavy nos on my fleet megas to run off interceptors. I'd have fit neuts instead, since I was using it as a weapon, but their fitting reqs are insane. Heavy Dim nos - 2000MW Heavy Unstable neut - 2500MW Med Dim nos - 175MW Med Unstable neut - 200MW Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go delete my "Pilgrim" skill plan from Evemon
Dr Felonius Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:38:00 - [79] The NOS changes strike me as a massive overnerf. Making it harder to totally kill someone's cap with a NOS would be good. Making nosDoms a little less awesome would be good. But there's nothing fundamentally wrong with letting ships with superior NOS capability utterly wreck an enemy's capacitor over time. It's a high slot module that uses a lot of grid, it ought to be nasty. I'd rather see some sort of stacking nerf, or perhaps an effectiveness curve that lets them hack off huge chunks of a full cap but smaller amounts of cap when the target is nearly drained anyway.
SirMolly	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:43:00 - [80] NOS change shouldn't affect curse/pilrim. Also neutrolizer PG requirement should be lowered to the level of NOS.

Dash Ripcock 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:43:00 - [81] It's great seeing Khanid Mk II finally being implemented. The Damnation might need a little bit of a twist (since it's rather slow, making its use of close-range missiles a little limiting - nice tank mind). The other ships, at a glance, look good. Especially the Sacrilege which I suspect will rocket in price due to it now being a fantastic mission runner. Nosferatu changes are interesting and I'll have to give them a go to see what they're like. I don't see it affecting the Curse or Pilgrim much, just carry a mixture of neutralisers and nosferatus. Kill their cap, leech it a little, kill it... rinse and repeat. Just takes a bit more thought than F1-F8. Outbreak - The Movie
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:44:00 - [82] Well that would've been another alternative: 1. Swap Nos and Neut fitting costs (but make Neuts a bit harder to fit than current Nos) and reduce Nos transfer amount by 25%. Increased fitting and reduced amount gives the target more time to kill the Nos ship before it runs out of cap (i.e. Blasterthron vs. Nos-Domi) 2. Re-implement a very minimal cap usage for projectiles and missiles. This would end the balancing problems totally cap-less setups cause. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Michayel Lyon The Corporation Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:44:00 - [83] Here's for CCP making a hen out of a feather, and then coming up with the stupidest, most complicated way of killing the hen. Seriously guys, what's wrong with tracking? Sig radius penalty? Diminishing returns? Percentage-based nossing? Nosferatu hardpoints? Seriously, just removing nos from the game would be a better solution... --- Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied? Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions GM Xamother: "Beeing online is not considered harassment or exploit."
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:46:00 - [84] Originally by: Dr Aryandi Originally by: General Apocalypse And please answer this question : How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut Take off your Nos, replace it with a Neut... That's what I'm planning to do... You fail at reading 101 Say NO to the NOS nerf
Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:47:00 - [85] Has there been any thought into extending the 'Khanid' changes to some of the T1 Amarr ships bereft of a role? Mainly talking about the inquisitor (a lot of T1 frigs could really use a revamp), maller, prophecy, apoc. I know it would break the canon surrounding Khanid ships a little bit, but overall I think it could be workable. Something like; Inquisitor: 3 missile slots, 5% rocket bonus, 5% armor resists on a fairly speedy frame Maller: 4 missile slots, 5% HAM damage bonus, 5% armor resists Prophecy: 5 missile slots, 5% HAM damage bonus, 5% armor resists Apoc: 6 missile slots, 5% Torpedo damage bonus, 5% armor resists That would allow a stronger thread for the ship types as follows; Inquisitor -> Purifier/Vengeance -> Maller -> Sacrilege -> Prophecy -> Damnation -> Apocalypse Punisher -> Retribution -> Omen -> Zealot -> Harbinger -> Absolution -> Geddon I realize that some models would need to be reworked too, but overall I think it would help add diversity to Amarr T1 as well as T2 and provide two distinct design philosophies to Amarr, similiar to what the other races have (drones/blaster, speed/alpha, missiles/rails). DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Shadow Dream Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:48:00 - [86] Originally by: Michayel Lyon Here's for CCP making a hen out of a feather, and then coming up with the stupidest, most complicated way of killing the hen. Seriously guys, what's wrong with tracking? Sig radius penalty? Diminishing returns? Percentage-based nossing? Nosferatu hardpoints? Seriously, just removing nos from the game would be a better solution... We just like to screw whit your mind and make you enjoy the game . We whant to reach 300k player soon .
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:51:00 - [87] Has anyone tested to see how this affects the Pilgrim and Curse? New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
Dr Aryandi Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:51:00 - [88] Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: Dr Aryandi Originally by: General Apocalypse And please answer this question : How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut Take off your Nos, replace it with a Neut... That's what I'm planning to do... You fail at reading 101 Not at all. I was pointing out that you listed your solution in with your complaint... Blueprint Research Service Available See thread for details.
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:54:00 - [89] Originally by: Dr Aryandi Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: Dr Aryandi Originally by: General Apocalypse And please answer this question : How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut Take off your Nos, replace it with a Neut... That's what I'm planning to do... You fail at reading 101 Not at all. I was pointing out that you listed your solution in with your complaint... Are you gonna fit a neut on your mega or do you like to have any 2 cents ceptor rendering you imobile forever Say NO to the NOS nerf
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:55:00 - [90] Doesn't anyone use nos to maintain cap, not just drain it? Certainly in PvE, it's nice to have a module that helps maintain your cap without blowing a medium slot on an injector. You don't get as much of a boost, but it does give a little extra and make spare high slots useful on some ships that would otherwise have nothing viable to put there. With this change, does the nos stop running when it detects the target has less cap than the attacker? If not, does it just keep cycling, and you never really know if it's having any effect?

Chi Quan Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:55:00 - [91] has anyone checked if the heretic (tech2 destroyer) is still a vaiable anti 'ceptor platform? with them going 12km+/sec i doubt it, maybe up the gun slots to the original 3. -- Tempus fugit --
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:58:00 - [92] Also, Why only HAM bonuses? Can we get heavy missles on there also? Is the rof bonus on the Sac only for HAMS or heavies as well? New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:59:00 - [93] I have an idea.... Use Neuts on your Curse/Pilgrim. Its still insanely powerful. Khanid ships are now so unbearably better then the other Amarr ships it will be sad. 4 REAL BONUSES!! For an Amarr ship this will really make the Khanid class boat almost as good as everyone elses. I thought this thread was a joke when I first saw it, then when I saw that it was real...... I haven't stopped crying tears of joy.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:01:00 - [94] Originally by: Sorted but its been in the game for years - forum whining seems to be at a peak and focused on NOS recently. BAM NERF BAT>.. whats next ? Dampners? I bet 50M. That's not a bet I'd take. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets don't.
1iskrental	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:02:00 - [95] I dont think there is anything wrong with it as is nerfing amarr again pilgrim will suck as will curse y dont mimys ever get stuff took of em like the fastest hac ability to shoot even without cap is a joke tbh what ships will amarr have left to fly vagas fleets of em everywhere there will be all doing 15k ffs
Vanst Keal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:02:00 - [96] Originally by: Michayel Lyon Seriously guys, what's wrong with tracking? Sig radius penalty? I have no idea who you are and I probably shouldn't even be posting here, but this is exactly what I started thinking when I read about these changes. Tracking works to keep guns balanced and could be applied to Nos fairly easily. Sig radius penalties work for missiles, drones, and guns equally well, why not Nos too? I'm sure the creative guys could come up with something to explain why heavy Nos doesn't work at 100% efficiency on anything smaller than a battleship. This sort of karmic-balance cap interlinkage whateverthehell change is ten tons of BS in a five ton crate. tl;dr: OMG CCP, wtf, gtfo
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:05:00 - [97] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Khanid ships are now so unbearably better then the other Amarr ships it will be sad. 4 REAL BONUSES!! Three and a half. We'll get four if they make the missile bonus apply to standard and heavy missiles, like any other ship, and up a little the CPU on some ships. If they do that, then I'll shed tears of joy. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:06:00 - [98] Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 30/07/2007 17:11:08 Ok, 3 pages in, and I read the whole thing. Point 1: Nos - NPC, the new mechanics apply? Simple yes or no will do. Point 2: The Curse/Pilgrim problem: I see a lot of 'adapt or die' stuff on the forums, and really its not productive. The truth is, the Curse/Pilgrim are designed to be nos boats while the Domi, with its drone&hybrid damage bonus was not supposed to be a nos boat. The changes, while welcome, have not differentiated the difference between the Domi and the curse/pilgrim. A very high stacking penalty and/or 'Nos points' like turret or missle points would have been a much more logical step. But this seems like an awfully complicated mechanic to fix something very simple. I would say - make NoS cost more cap to use then it takes (so you are burning cap to burn their cap) but less then a Neut. Something along those lines would have been fine - the problem with NoS was that people were using 4+ of them to fuel their duel rep tanks along with a cap booster. . .thats what needed to go - the duel-rep-perma-tank-till-your-opponent-runs-dry setups. . .Not the use of NoS to kill smaller ships. . .that was a good thing. Point 3: Fast Ships - Interceptors and Nano-setups will become more prevelent due to these changes. I expect to see the Vegabond become a very common ship very common ship (already is and lots of people flying in intercptor packs. If this is what is wanted then I will adapt to that playstyle and start using my Crusaider - Line ships will fair ok because of Neuts and such as well (if you fix the fitting requirements) but what will happen to the middle range ships, the cruisers and BC ranges? I know I fit my BCs with very little PG and CPU left in the end, and that is with one nos. . .it is simply not an option to drop the nos for a neut. So things are going to get faster. . .ok Point 4: Khanid - So things are going to get faster, it becomes difficult to stop a MWD/nano setup because its only weakness is its cap. Now we come to Khanid ships that are missle spamming armor tankers - perfectly fine, definatly preferable to shield tanking laser users - which would have been funney. But wait, we are taking an armor tanker and putting a close (and I mean very close) range setup on it? So we have 2 options, forget about the HAMs and whatnot and tank it to high hell. . .or nano it up. Now which do you think is going to happen. So now we have an oversized crow. So why make the bonus' range spacific. . .I see what is happening, but I also think there is a lack of real pvp use for these ships. Added to this is the PG/CPU problem, it needs a little more math to make it work. The damnation in particular is short a lot of PG to make this whole setup work. All in all, I am glad Nos is being changed, but in the end it does not address the main problem and further divides Cap-dependant from Cap-free in favor of Cap free. And forces a whole race of slow ships to play close range. So, the Minmatization of EvE continues and their popularity will only rise. I was hoping the FOTM would change, but I guess these changes are actually silent buffs. More defense, less offence. Oh, and did anyone see the "(and hopefully torpedos eventually)" comment? hint hint. . . ----
Mysa Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:08:00 - [99] i EXPECT a pg rise on the dominix now if this nos cut goes down!!! The old vamp-domi just hit the wall and died..... AND stop giving amarr any at all good changes, they are all slaves and should stay that way!(so tired of the damn roleplaying CVA/amarr fkrs..)
Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:17:00 - [100] Fe suggestions/changes, i would like to see Yeah, for the Khandid changes, Let them have a bonus to either missile, or you should really make it a double bonus. It would be like giving the Vaga a bonus for Arty only, it just restricts a set-ups already restricted by fittings/hardpoints, ect. Give them their normal, sized based bonuses, and let them go. Launcher total will keep them from replacing Caldari missile boats. Now, just need to give the poor Ferox that extra turret slot. NOS change, probably really won;t matter. People will move on to Neuts, and cap will get drained even faster than currently. But just a suggestion, the ships that have a bonus to NOS, change their bonus to Energy neutralized, or less cap for Neuts. Leaving the bonus to NOS, makes them more chance based than the Rook.

Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:19:00 - [101] Originally by: Mysa i EXPECT a pg rise on the dominix now if this nos cut goes down!!! The old vamp-domi just hit the wall and died..... AND stop giving amarr any at all good changes, they are all slaves and should stay that way!(so tired of the damn roleplaying CVA/amarr fkrs..) Keep expeciting... You wont get anything. The Vamp Domi was overpowered as many have reluctatly admitted. It needed to be nerferd. Now there will be neut domis out there. Amarr need a boost. Dont be a troll. As for Domi power grid ... Just fit a rack of Electrons on it. They will fit .. I have done it.
Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:21:00 - [102] Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Doesn't anyone use nos to maintain cap, not just drain it? Certainly in PvE, it's nice to have a module that helps maintain your cap without blowing a medium slot on an injector. You don't get as much of a boost, but it does give a little extra and make spare high slots useful on some ships that would otherwise have nothing viable to put there. With this change, does the nos stop running when it detects the target has less cap than the attacker? If not, does it just keep cycling, and you never really know if it's having any effect? Well, that's the intention. If your cap is less than your opponents, you can suck his cap to sustain yours. But if his cap is lower than yours, you get nothing.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:23:00 - [103] 1. Damnation ghange is bad. It's imposible to fit now. 2. Nos... it will be destruction of curse/pilgrim 1 or 2 activation of neutralizer and you have no capacitor. I dont' understand why not leave it as it is. The argument - it is affect to strong... there is no ship without it in fits. Both animies have the same opportunity to use them. As to the fight ceptor vs BS... ceptor is a small ship, no ,metter BS has nosf fitted or no. Amar recons use nosf as main weapon, if nos will be nurfed like this - they'll be useless, 2 activation of mnd & 2 neutralizzers will darin it's capacitor till 0. Everybody who say that it's ok don't fly on this ships enough.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:25:00 - [104] thanks for wasting 6 monhts of traning devs tottal retared ** nerf. i will not spend 6 monhts to skill up to other stuff, i will just stop playing. how can we players, skill something, it might be nerfed anytime the nos is not broken, its just some players whom dont want to fit cap boosters cuse it messes up with there sheild thank and pg so the wine, tottal bs changes, atlest make it so when the cap on the ships are 50% /50% the nos acts as a nut, so it only drains cap and do not transfer it. but making the nos useless is to mutch. what about the talsiman implants, they gona be useless now as well. so now the most powerfull races in eve will be those whom dont use cap to shot, like caldri and Min. tottal , i have trained gallante, and are now useless for 2 years, the domi sucks, cuse it cant fit a full rack of guns witch dont hit anyway, while the caldri is so powerfull its sick, you cant win vs a caldri ship its just to powerfull they dont need cap to fire missils, there missiles do max dam everytime, and they can sheild tank wich uses alot less Pg and have alot more improvent mods over armor tanking, great ide devs i wonder what your thinking, if you gona nerf something nerf caldri, they way to strong bs ** thees changes wont work well, the nos is a good wepon, no need to nerf it, most people just stay out of range. the nos was the only effective wepon vs caldri min and amarr ships for the domi atlest, and is now useless,
Mysa Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:25:00 - [105] Originally by: KolwrathThe Vamp Domi was overpowered as many have reluctatly admitted. It needed to be nerferd. Now there will be neut domis out there. Amarr need a boost. Dont be a troll. As for Domi power grid ... Just fit a rack of Electrons on it. They will fit .. I have done it.[/quote Ok neut domis work already tried it not that fun though, using cap boosters cuts med slots. Amarr didnt get a boost, they are planned to become kamikaze_closerange_slow_turning_easy_hits now, neuts on curse and pilgrim?? usch.. Electrons?.. i want neutrons + nos-domi tank(now thats overpowered)
SITH LORDVADER	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:27:00 - [106] Well what a shock Gratz all them that are amarr and fly hacs no need to bother now as they will all suck big time.
Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:27:00 - [107] Originally by: Kolwrath Originally by: Mysa i EXPECT a pg rise on the dominix now if this nos cut goes down!!! The old vamp-domi just hit the wall and died..... AND stop giving amarr any at all good changes, they are all slaves and should stay that way!(so tired of the damn roleplaying CVA/amarr fkrs..) Keep expeciting... You wont get anything. The Vamp Domi was overpowered as many have reluctatly admitted. It needed to be nerferd. Now there will be neut domis out there. Amarr need a boost. Dont be a troll. As for Domi power grid ... Just fit a rack of Electrons on it. They will fit .. I have done it. Actually, wonding if you can fit 4 Neuts, and 2 NOS. put the 4 Neuts on your enemy, and use NOS on your own Logistic drones to keep you cap up. Can pull them in and relaunch the for free recharge, then switch to combat Drones when enemy is drained dry.
Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:40:00 - [108] Originally by: Mysa Electrons?.. i want neutrons + nos-domi tank(now thats overpowered) Yeah no doubt :) People seem to forget that the Domi is a Tier 1 BS. Its not meant for the big weapons like neutrons. It is not supposed to have a huge PG. You cant fit a rack of tachyons on a Geddon, no full rack of torps on a raven (i dont think ... i dont fly caldari) ... so why should you be able to fit a rack of Neturons on a Dominix? (I dont think you can even fit a full rack of neutrons on a mega for f-sake ... not with any sort of tank .. or some pg mods ... and maxed skills, but its been a while since i have flown a mega so i could be wrong)
zoumau	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:43:00 - [109] So Amarr get nerfed again.. great.. damnation with less cpu than sacriledge and shortrange heavy assault missiles.. Vengeance.. no more damage bonus, which was added last patch. And since when do missile using damnations need better cap recharge. Not like you are using energy like with a beam setup. Hmm maybe rev 2.3 the other amarr ships can get nerfed as well and changed to armor tanking missile ships.. ravens with 8 low slots. Nos changes... lmao.. this gonna help the need for speed? more calculations needed for every action. ISO just checking if the target has cap, now it has to compare two ships cap to do something. Think it's time some people stop inventing nifty stuff and focus on need for speed.. And if this means, drop the idiotic devs that invent crap like missile using amarr ships and hire some programmers, pls don't wait too long. Or is this the second chance for heavy assault launchers? Missile users never liked them, let's see if we can turn beam users into short range crappy missile nobs. Been a while since we have seen a good patch. Hope this never makes tranquilety.. oh wait, it will, i forget, sisi is not good enough for stress tests.
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:44:00 - [110] Aside from destroying my vengeance, these changes seem good. I've been playing with the malediction lately, and the adjustments to it should be very useful. ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth

Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:44:00 - [111] Originally by: 1iskrental I dont think there is anything wrong with it as is nerfing amarr again pilgrim will suck as will curse y dont mimys ever get stuff took of em like the fastest hac ability to shoot even without cap is a joke tbh what ships will amarr have left to fly vagas fleets of em everywhere there will be all doing 15k ffs Do you and everyone else like you know of the concept of grammar? Seriously, learn to type properly, then get back to us. 50m Sig Contest!
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:46:00 - [112] Currently, the Pilgrim gets the Role bonus of: Quote:200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. I would recommend changing this (who uses a force recon for cyno's anyways Rolling Eyes).... to: Quote:75% reduction in capacitor use of Energy Emission modules and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. The "main" weapon system of the Pilgrim and the Curse is neutralizing the enemies capacitor, while the drones / gang do damage. Without the ability to drain the enemies capacitor while maintaining your own makes these ships more vulnerable than any other recon. How about we make Stasis Webifiers based upon these changes as well? Ex: A webber only lowers the speed of your opponent to match your own? Or, we can make Sensor Dampeners: Decreases the target's range / sensor strength up to your own. etc... The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:49:00 - [113] arrrg well i guees it aint that bad, thinking about it more, its a good change, i cant edit my post, so i think i was abit hasty in my omg omg omg eve is skrewed for me now ;) it dont look so bad, even tho the nos should maybe have lower pg now, and lower cpu to fit, as it aint so powerfull anymore, like maybe 1k pg to fit insted of 2k and so on half the pg on em, so they can be used as back up and such
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:50:00 - [114] Oh brilliant, just ******g brilliant. So with only a couple of decent ships (curse / pilgrim) available to the amarr pilot you decide to go stick it to them? What is this? "Nerf Amarr Online"??? Best I switch back to training minmatar then... C. - sig designer - eve mail
1iskrental	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:51:00 - [115] Do you and everyone else like you know of the concept of grammar? Seriously, learn to type properly, then get back to us. Hmmm numpty springs to mind
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:52:00 - [116] Edited by: Sebastien LeReparteur on 30/07/2007 17:52:41 Nice Amarr have decided to nerf their setup even more VS minmatar!!! Yeah we can now kite them even more since their CC missiles are useless on moving bricks!!! I sense a disturbance in the force, Oh wait it is my bandwidth going higher since my Amarr friend just quit... So with that NOS nerf any ship will be able to solo LVL 4 except the fricking Raven? -----------
Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:52:00 - [117] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: 1iskrental I dont think there is anything wrong with it as is nerfing amarr again pilgrim will suck as will curse y dont mimys ever get stuff took of em like the fastest hac ability to shoot even without cap is a joke tbh what ships will amarr have left to fly vagas fleets of em everywhere there will be all doing 15k ffs Do you and everyone else like you know of the concept of grammar? Seriously, learn to type properly, then get back to us. Lol I was thinking the same thing. Yeesh
Logan Fyreite Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:53:00 - [118] Seems a lot like the changes are going to focus the Khanid ships to one range role, but this is in fact not unprecedented. When Matari ships have bonus to falloff it would seem to indicate that they should fit Autocannons, and when they have bonuses to Optimal that they should fit Arties. Huge generalization there but for the most part it holds true, other than those breaking the mold setups that user arties on a ac setup or the reverse. Focusing on the closer ranged missile group is a change since there are no other ships in the game that do that. Oh - no you might have to skill up a new area, instead of just guns, drones, and armor. Seems like a good thing, at least in some small way, give you a bigger cross section of skills to choose from so amarr are not quite as one trick as everyone was complaining that they were. NOS/Neuts now seem to have changed roles, but fitting requirements definately need to be looked at! Nos/Neuts are going to be much more management heavy weapons unlike the lock target -> win that they are now. Interceptors get a slight ninja bonus since NOS will not be able to 1 hit them to zero cap but neuts still will. Besides, even before the changes a solo BS is in trouble if a single longer ranged (read crow) inty engages it outside of web range. If you have NOS fitted then you can live but if not, you better hope the pilot screws up or that your drones get him before he kills them, good luck there. Pilgrim/Curse pilots are not going to be as powerful Solo anymore but it's not like they are useless all of a sudden. Neuts are still going to be very effective, and it's not like drones + sensor damps do not still eqaul win. Just means their solo appeal with diminish some for a while until people figure out new ways to own in them, aka cap boosters and neuts or some setup like that. Overall the changes are about a 5.5/10, not as OMG world is ending as some are making them out to be and not that great either. How many responders are just jumping at this because it's a change and how many have actually gone on the test server and tried a few setups. I tried a few domi setups and came up with a few that were not bad, but I don't have the skills to test out the Curse/Pilgrim or any of the Khanid ships for that matter.
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:53:00 - [119] Killing NOS usefulness when our only two worthwhile ships have NOS bonuses, and then adding missiles as a focus, when those two useful ships are drone ships, and all of our other stuff is gunnery based, excellent idea. Thanks a pantload. Even when Amarr get loving, they get screwed. Awesome. Oh, well. I guess all these gunnery skill points will be useful in Minmatar ships. If you could let me know about six months in advance before you decide to make speed irrelevent in combat, so I could switch out of Minmatar and into Gallente, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Yuandin	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:54:00 - [120] CCP introduced heavy assault missiles not long ago, and as it turns out, nobody wants them... prices on the market prove that point. So, now, Amarr pilots get this short range bs rammed down their throats with A SHORT RANGE ONLY BONUS - that no other ships in the whole game have to put up with! This is garbage! like an earlier poster said, make the CPU fit tight, so its not easy to fit long range, but don't screw Amarr pilots AGAIN with a hokey bonus! The old -10% cap use "bonus" for lasers was always just a device to prevent other races from equiping lasers. In 2003, the phony bonus didn't matter cause there were no stacking nerfs yet, and you could produce an insane alphastrike capability with Amarr ships. But instead of just introducing stack nerfing right then, you first nerfed Amarr directly in several ways, and later on introduced stack nerfing, ending up with an over nerf, that by the looks of this is never going to be evened up...

Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:56:00 - [121] Originally by: 1iskrental Do you and everyone else like you know of the concept of grammar? Seriously, learn to type properly, then get back to us. Hmmm numpty springs to mind At least people can understand what I'm trying to say. 50m Sig Contest!
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:57:00 - [122] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: 1iskrental Do you and everyone else like you know of the concept of grammar? Seriously, learn to type properly, then get back to us. Hmmm numpty springs to mind At least people can understand what I'm trying to say. to write m8te, to write... -----------
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:00:00 - [123] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Cypherous Damnation change = bad, it lacks the speed to get in range to make its HAM bonus even remotely worth while, as for boosting its already insane tank why? TBH the DPS on the damnation with HAM's is so poor it makes the ship useless for anything, mines going to be going on the market before the nerf :( No, its not. The change is good, with even only a modicum of skills the DPS on the hams will outstrip your previous DPS with pulse lasers. And its not like the Damnation wasnt the lowest DPS of all the command ships ANYWAY. All the changes are good, 100% good. Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious good. I hope you are kidding, right? Otherwise you either don't fly Damnation or failed at eve completely. ---
Dreysine Endgame.	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:00:00 - [124] Originally by: BubbaZanetti Killing NOS usefulness when our only two worthwhile ships have NOS bonuses, and then adding missiles as a focus, when those two useful ships are drone ships, and all of our other stuff is gunnery based, excellent idea. Thanks a pantload. Even when Amarr get loving, they get screwed. Awesome. Oh, well. I guess all these gunnery skill points will be useful in Minmatar ships. If you could let me know about six months in advance before you decide to make speed irrelevent in combat, so I could switch out of Minmatar and into Gallente, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. ffs just add some neuts to your setup. problem solved. i still love my curse. i trained amarr just for the curse, and now i can actually make more use of it since i have good missile skills but no guns. i cant speak for the damnation since i dont fly one, but the fitting nerf seems uncalled for. ps. wheres the love for the Apoc? isnt that also a khanid ship? -------------------- Are you looking at my bum??
Dakisha Mining Bytes Inc. Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:03:00 - [125] Well.. Arn't I glad I decided to hold off changing races -- was going to go Amarr for the curse. Now a waste of time. 3 things that strike me. 1) Welcome to solo intys locking battleships down while support from 5 jumps away slowboats over with time to spare to kill you. 2) Curse/Pilgrim - reiteration of what people have said before with the addition of: wtf are people supposed to do in solo pvp? Magic up another few targets to nos at the same time? Let your own tank fail on a ship specificly designed to keep itself alive via nos? Now the only things a curse can kill are things it can break the tank of via DPS. 3) Dev clarification needed. If when you hit the equalibrium of both sides having the same ammt of cap - do you still gain cap from nos'ing them?
Minas Reul Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:03:00 - [126] With the Khanid Mk2 changes, the deimos will now be by far the slowest HAC at 170m/s, with the average HAC doing 201m/s. Ironically, this stands out because the Sac's speed was increased to make it a better close-range ship. Surely the time is right to admit that the deimos needs attention to be 'the ultimate close range blaster cruiser'?
PathetiQ Gallente The Rat Pack	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:04:00 - [127] Wow those NOS change are dumb! I mean... totally dumb! please dont put this on TQ
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:04:00 - [128] Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur Originally by: Sakura Nihil Originally by: 1iskrental Do you and everyone else like you know of the concept of grammar? Seriously, learn to type properly, then get back to us. Hmmm numpty springs to mind At least people can understand what I'm trying to say. to write m8te, to write... Touche . Back on topic - again, if the devs want to encourage use of the HAMs and RLs, don't use the bonus to do it. First off, because Khanid wouldn't be getting the flight time or velocity increases, roles like anti-frigate or say a Burn Eden style Raven spamming cruises from far away wouldn't be viable on Khanid ships. Likewise, if you constrain the CPU sufficiently, people will say something like "you know, I could go long-range with Standard Missiles on this Malediction, but I'm going to have to gimp my setup with a fitting mod for a weaker Crow... let's go rockets instead". Don't force the choice down our throats, "encourage" it in a subversive fashion . 50m Sig Contest!
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:07:00 - [129] Damnation needs more cpu 5x HAML best named 2x Gang Links Mwd, Injektor, web+24scram (best named) 2x rep 1x dcu2, 3x T2 hardener doesnt fit. that should not happen. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Musgrat	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:10:00 - [130] Yes, since NOS is getting extremely heavily nerfed, you need to loosen fittings please. The ways I'm reading this, I'm in a Velator with a small nos, I put it on a carrier, but don't get anything after about 2 seconds? This is screwed up, of all the ways to nerf NOS that make sense, you pick this one. It's confusing to start, and ends up making us fit salvagers instead of NOS... The sig radius one was the best, and made sense. You still did full NOS against a capitals, but against a frigate/interceptor a nosdomi would take a few cycles to cap it out, enough for it to get out. Now a frigate can fit 1 NOS and be able to laugh when it has 3 heavy NOS on it........ Does this sound balanced?

Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:10:00 - [131] question about the nos change... (only) (if victim-cap-% > my-cap-%) "the amount transferred by a Nosferatu is based on the relative capacitor charge levels" so basically, (after a few seconds) i'd leech ~25-30% of 120cap (heavy nosferatu right now) off any purely-cap-recharging target? this doesn't change a heck lot except the drain "speed" a few seconds into the fight - and the question of using 400's or 800's cap booster charges on your cruiser. it adds a sliiight advantage to cap amount rather than recharge. however, the difference in pg needs for batteries vs rechargers, ingredients for rigs and ranks of skills still won't be sufficiently explicable. only exciting outcome of this would be a game of mikado-in-space: he who panics first (and throws in a cap charge) looses. in addition to your own cap recharge, which you can use for one repper, you can still run a second (smaller) repper with the stuff you drained from others right after the nos got to work - especially outclassed targets who tend to have higher recharge anyway: who's more worried about his next invul II cycle? the BS or the inty? i don't read anything about the balance-whacking nos sizes either...? in a nutshell: nos&drones still pwns, neutralizers are still only "profitable"/useful against smaller targets and a few similar-sized ones. just get rid of nos altogether and put all focus on neutralizers (and cap transfer modules) - putting the gist back into logistics
Chaos Incarnate	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:11:00 - [132] Not to detract from the QQ, but, two reasonable questions: Nos/neuts vs NPCs : Still functional as before, or will the new changes apply to everything? Cap-draining Drones : Will they still function as before?
Airpizza II Virtual Warriors	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:12:00 - [133] Hmm, hard to say how much the Nos nerf will hurt Curse/Pilgrim until I test setups on sisi. But the changes will actually help the other Amarr ships believe it or not. If youÆve flown Amarr laser boats in PvP then you will have defiantly lost ships to Nos boats. ItÆs a horrible feeling just sitting there unable to fire due to enemy Nos. At least now you can go down shooting ;) Khanid changes will be interesting indeed. MissileÆs = Damage Variety = Nice. So basically, DEVÆs please fix sisi ASAP!!!! Last but not least, congrats to Sarmaul for some nice ideas.
Cookie Snatcher Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:12:00 - [134] ok, lets see: crow vs malediction. Since noone wants to tackle in web range we can easily say that crow will still be better ship to fly. Thats if you cant get your rockets over 20km. Crow wins. hawk vs vengeance. Lacks the range of the Hawk, but is faster and tanks better due to its slot layout and bonuses. CPU is tight when using standard missiles. Lol yeah, hawk sucks monkey balls. Most t1 frigs outdamage it when using standard launchers. Everyone is allready using rocket launchers on it. Vengeance wins. flycatcher vs heretic. The Heretic has similar bonuses to the Flycatcher, but the rockets only damage bonus and the low CPU makes rockets more suitable than standard missiles. The Explosion velocity bonus makes the Heretic better for taking down high speed targets vs. low speed, low signature radius targets for the Flycatcher. Hello, wtf? Do you even play this game? Flycatcher was the worst dictor and it still will be. It just doesnt have the grid/cpu to fit standard launchers. It lacks the speed and agilty, simply said it just sucks. Heretic wins. Sacrilege vs cerberus. The improved speed and mass helps getting the ship in close, though it remains slightly worse than for the Zealot. The armor resistance and capacitor recharge bonuses allow the Sacrilege to field a very hard tank, which helps it to compete against blaster ships (with its relatively lower damage output). Ill be recycling my cerberus's after this puppy gets out. Who gives a flying ** if you can shoot from 150km with papertowel dps. You got like 20+ ships that can do that better than cerb. Sacri is going to make such a nice close range solo pvp ship. Sacri wins easily. Dont care about cov ops. Got an alt to fly best cov op of them all - cheetah. Also damnation change is prolly good, no need to use cap to fire. Its a gang support ship after all. So basically caldari will now officially be the **tiest pvp race. Only exeption is of course crow, but im sure they will find a way to nerf it soon.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:14:00 - [135] Originally by: SITH LORDVADER Well what a shock Gratz all them that are amarr and fly hacs no need to bother now as they will all suck big time. I guess that is why the Sacrilege double in price today then... We're sorry, something happened.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:15:00 - [136] I think some of the changes are good but when you gonna take a look at the ares its got to be the worst interceptor and worst tech 2 ship in game. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Necronomicon Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:18:00 - [137] I think the NOS changes should be more of a skill based thing, i.e energy emissions gives 10% of captured cap to the ship (so 50% of maximum NOS amount) then a new lvl4-5 skill gives a further 2-5% per level (so 60-75% of full nossed amount), then ships like the curse/pilgrim keep their roles as they are + a 25% role bonus to successful transfer of energy via NOS. And then stacking nerf them so (for example with large) 1 = full strength (120), 2 = 80% each (192) 3 = 60% (216) when FITTED not ACTIVE. Therefore fitting a large NOS to a domi even with both skills at lvl5 will only ever give that pilot a max of 75% of the NOSed amount. And will kiss bye bye to uber 4 NOS domis, but still preserving the long time training for the NOS Specific ships like the Curse and Pilgrim. PLS Note that I have Amarr Frigate lvl1 only. Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:32:00 - [138] i am upset by the recent noz fix and ammar missle idea. i am fed up becasue i trained so long and invested time and ultimately money to have my ship now ****ed on. my harbinger cant fit a proper tank due to the last Eanm2 fix, i belive its the only BC to have this issue,(im 1cpu short). and it was sold as an ammar fix. and now my curse and pilgrim which took me months and months to train for are going to be next to useless. im not impressed with the heavy assult ship idea, i dont want to fly a slow ship with rubbish range, it will get owned. for the first time ever im considering jacking this game in.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:38:00 - [139] Originally by: Wyliee for the first time ever im considering jacking this game in. Three words sum this up. Adapt or die. 50m Sig Contest!
The Anointed Caldari Evolutionary Transhumanist Apperception The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:43:00 - [140] I like the changes, but while your at it, give caldari another bonus instead of kinetic missile damage, seeing as it must rate as one of the worst ship bonuses in the game, mmmm me feels a top 10 thread coming on.

Uhr Zylex	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:53:00 - [141] CCP, for god's sake, don't destroy the two only worthwhile amarr ships. I hope there's some sort of mitigating bonus effects introduced to the curse and pilgrim.
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:55:00 - [142] The NOS changes seem fair to me. Now when you get to equalized cap levels the NOS becomes a low intensity energy neutralizer. Until then the Nosser gets a boost to maintain their cap. It seems to me that a heavily capacitor dependent fit would benefit greatly from this arrangement. The change addresses the issues of size > all in capacitor warfare, without flipping the balance completely over to small ships. It also makes cap design important too. The question of recharge vs. capacity vs. boost will now have an effect on how you perform in capacitor warfare. I'd be curious to find out if they drain at the full transfer amount or not once you get to equilibrium. In other words, will a Heavy NOS drain both ships 100 energy per cycle when cap percentage equilibrium is achieved? If this is the case, a Heavy NOS will still be death for the unprepared interceptor. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:59:00 - [143] CCP needs to make changes from time to time, the day they start concerning themselves more with "this will make people mad" than "this is imbalanced and needs fixed" is the day we start to see substandard game balancing and a status quo. They need tweaking, but its a start. 50m Sig Contest!
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:00:00 - [144] Nos changes are GREAT. Really adds some power to smaller ships, while taking it away from larger ones. Example: frig with 1-2x small nos flying around with 30-40% cap running it's repper/afterburner/mwd/whatever is nossing a cruiser. The cruiser can't nos is back until the cruiser is down to the same cap level, even if it has 4x medium nos on it. Now the cruiser HAS to use weapons to kill/immobilize the frig. No more of this "two Diminishing nos and you're dead" stuff. Same thing does for BS vs. cruisers. Or anything else for that matter. Stacking no long is an issue. 20 nos on you? So what? If everyone is at 90% cap, they can't draw any more than that from you. AWESOME. Fixed. Neutralizers will finally get some use. The energy transfer skill will finally get trained. Nos/Neut combos will be the new design. Use Neuts to scoop huge chunks of cap from the target, and use Nos to leech any last remaining bits of the targets cap back into your own cap. No more self-sustaining speed setups! YIPPEEE!!!! FINALLY! No more all powerful nano Curses, and Vagabonds zooming around with 18km faction nos. Vaga giving you problems? 1-2 Heavy Neuts and boom, now he's a Stabber. Can you kill him? Probably not. Can you make him go away? Sure can. Inty 'defence'? Bring a Neut. Smash his cap, warp off. Not enough cap smashing? Use two Neuts. Finally this horrific little module gets fixed. Khanid changes? Awesome stuff. Can't really speak on the Damnation and Sac changes, but the Vengeance and Malidiction will be awesome. Heretic as well. LOL @ changing the cov ops for 'completeness'. NJ guys. Now can I have my CPU back from the EANM Nerf? Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:02:00 - [145] Originally by: murder one Nos changes are GREAT. Really adds some power to smaller ships, while taking it away from larger ones. Example: frig with 1-2x small nos flying around with 30-40% cap running it's repper/afterburner/mwd/whatever is nossing a cruiser. The cruiser can't nos is back until the cruiser is down to the same cap level, even if it has 4x medium nos on it. Now the cruiser HAS to use weapons to kill/immobilize the frig. No more of this "two Diminishing nos and you're dead" stuff. Same thing does for BS vs. cruisers. Or anything else for that matter. Stacking no long is an issue. 20 nos on you? So what? If everyone is at 90% cap, they can't draw any more than that from you. AWESOME. Fixed. Neutralizers will finally get some use. The energy transfer skill will finally get trained. Nos/Neut combos will be the new design. Use Neuts to scoop huge chunks of cap from the target, and use Nos to leech any last remaining bits of the targets cap back into your own cap. No more self-sustaining speed setups! YIPPEEE!!!! FINALLY! No more all powerful nano Curses, and Vagabonds zooming around with 18km faction nos. Vaga giving you problems? 1-2 Heavy Neuts and boom, now he's a Stabber. Can you kill him? Probably not. Can you make him go away? Sure can. Inty 'defence'? Bring a Neut. Smash his cap, warp off. Not enough cap smashing? Use two Neuts. Finally this horrific little module gets fixed. Khanid changes? Awesome stuff. Can't really speak on the Damnation and Sac changes, but the Vengeance and Malidiction will be awesome. Heretic as well. LOL @ changing the cov ops for 'completeness'. NJ guys. Now can I have my CPU back from the EANM Nerf? Vagabond still work. as for Neuting an inty? Great, then the web goes off, and you have to get up to speed. In which time, said inty has enough for a point again. Rinse, repeat. Izo Azlion. --- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig.
Aselus Amarr Stark Industries	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:21:00 - [146] my favorite ship int he game.. (the damnation)... is ruined... also the whole point of amarr being based around lasers...is ruined... I've always looked down on missile users, and used the missile slots in Khanid ships for REPS/CAPTRANSFERS/NOS/NEUTRALIZERS. Now you've reduced my ability, as an amarr, for damage output in these ships to NILL by transferring them into pretty much effin caldari ships(train few extra skills caldari pilots cause u just got free ships at the cost of your fellow players)! worthless worthless missile ships, this pretty much ruins any RP view of the amarr that was interesting. You have inadvertently decimated all the goals and pride that i had in eve as an amarr player. My guess is response to this will be "qq go home to your mother", or 'just deal with it", or something to the light, and I am dealing with it. I'm probably leaving until something comes up in this game that'll be worth coming back for. As my (and i am sure some other players) goals and positions within the game are now gone. It is a shame that the dev team would do such a thing to the Amarr players that chose to fly amarr ships, especialy those of us that where proud (lore wise) to be amarr, and even understanding that the khanid had 'melded' caldari tech with amarr ships to create khanid ships, there is a large difference between 'melded' and 'copied', or just made caldari ships. Yes I understand that the 'regular' amarr ships will still be as they are...but now you have reduced our options in half compared to the other races, given the caldari players an extra chain of ships and taken one our best non-capital ships to ****. Thank you for a good two years, and thanks even more for screwing my favorite race. ~Aselus de Zerlon "A faded tear for those that where once proud, now washed away within the sea of hopeless abandonment. Cry out brothers and stand firm against the coming storm, for the gods shake our world stronger then any mortal ever willed his sword to."
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:23:00 - [147] The nos change targets the PVP part or did anyone consider the consequences for PVE too? As for the Khanid changes, why does the sac only get a bonus to heavy assault missiles and not to heavy missiles? Ship lovers click here
Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:24:00 - [148] To the devs: The Nosferatu is a module that when fitted can help you in both, PVP and PVE. If I'm missioning in low sec and get probed down/attacked by a player gang I could still use the nos to try and disable a scrambling player frig/inty. But with this nerf the rift between PVE and PVP setups becomes greater. Why? Because if I want a chance of breaking free from a gate-camp or pirate assault on a belt or mission spot I'll need to fit neutralizers which do nothing against NPCs. Fitting Nosferatus will help in PVE but will not break me free from player PVPers. Not to mention that the fitting requirements neutralizers are higher. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Barthezz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:25:00 - [149] The NOS nerf is good except for 3 ships (none of which I fly fyi), the Curse, Pilgrim and Bhaalgorn. All 3 of those ships have bonuses especially setup for NOS. The Bhaalgorn is worst off as it doesnt have a Neutralizer bonus like the Pilgrim & Curse have.
StarCommWraith Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:29:00 - [150] Ok how about this. Simply remove Nosferatu because now with the change you have made it completely useless.

Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:31:00 - [151] Why not make the Sacrilege and Damnation missile damage bonus for BOTH heavy assault and light missiles? Then they could fit normal assault launchers as well and be a kick-butt frigate defense with extra fitting room for tanking.
Kwerkus Ilf Mutually Assured Distraction Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:33:00 - [152] It's always hard to say for sure how well the changes will work until they've been in game for a few weeks but in general I think they are fantastic. The NOS change will for people to have to think a bit more about setups (nos/neut balance will be key on former nos boats) as well as how they manage their cap in the middle of fights. Curse pilots will figure out how to fly it well with Neuts/Nos and injectors but will have to manage their cap a bit more carefully rather than just throwing those Nos everywhere... The Mk2 changes seem like a step in the right direction for making these ships useful again but limiting them to one weapon system (MAMs or rockets) seems like it makes them too predictable. I liked the idea about making the bonus for all missiles but allowing CPU and/or grid limit the fittings. My only real concern is that implementing this many changes in such a short amount of time will really shift balance of power in PvP. This will result in some pilots overreacting but more importantly may create a number of unintended consequences that will only come to light once they are in game. It's safer to balance pvp slowly in order to give players time to adapt and make sure that unintended consequences don't result in gross imbalances. -K
Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:40:00 - [153] Originally by: Izo Azlion as for Neuting an inty? Great, then the web goes off, and you have to get up to speed. In which time, said inty has enough for a point again. Rinse, repeat. Uhmm I totally disagree. I think you are very wrong here. If you neut and inty to zero, hes going to have to charge back up to 30% before doing anyhing. A smart pilot wont start tackling with anything less that 30% because his cap will break again if he starts that MWD too soon. Now he can do this quickly with a booster or wait slowly for natural recharge. So what will a pilot do? He will use boosters because waiting for natural recharge will be enough time for anything to regain speed and warp off. Now here is the important part: Boosters run out. Not only to they run out due to limited cargo space, they also need to be reloaded which takes 10 seconds. So All a BS pilot has to do is neut the inty until his cap booster needs reloading and then bam you have 10 seconds to reach 75% of max speed. Totally doable. You can also just MWD out of range now that the inty is dead in the water. Or just space the inty since he is now dead in the water. I would also mention that if you spread out the neut cycles instead of running them all at the same time you will further destroy the intys cap. Boosters even in this scenario would be rendered useless. There are probably other ways around this too.
Reticenti Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:50:00 - [154] Can I please have a skill that decreases my total cap by 20% per level?
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:53:00 - [155] Originally by: Reticenti Can I please have a skill that decreases my total cap by 20% per level? ECM Burst ^-^ Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:55:00 - [156] Thank you CCP for the nos changes love the amarr changes so much i might even train up both missiles and amarr ships
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:57:00 - [157] Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 30/07/2007 19:38:26 To the devs: The Nosferatu is a module that when fitted can help you in both, PVP and PVE. If I'm missioning in low sec and get probed down/attacked by a player gang I could still use the nos to try and disable a scrambling player frig/inty. But with this nerf the rift between PVE and PVP setups becomes greater. Why? Because if I want a chance of breaking free from a gate-camp or pirate assault on a belt or mission spot I'll need to fit neutralizers which do nothing against NPCs. I don't know exactly how it works, but both Neuts and NOS affect NPC reps. The multipliers are different, so presumably Neuts are better at it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:00:00 - [158] Originally by: Reticenti Can I please have a skill that decreases my total cap by 20% per level? Already in game: Large Energy Turret. Also, on SHC somebody's already pointed out a nasty offline mod trick. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Thommy	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:02:00 - [159] Damnation Bonus for HAM with max skills 25% Widowmaker heavy missile Explosion radius: 125m max flight time: 10 seconds max velocity: 3,750 m/sec thermal damage: 150 hellfire assault missile Explosion radius: 125m max flight time: 3 seconds max velocity: 2,250 m/sec thermal damage: 100 after bonus 125 so lower damage then heaby missiles AND alot shorter range. comparison 25 damage less on base and on base looses 30,75km range (not counting acceleration of missiles as i dont know for how much that would matter). Now the statistics for T2 missiles there are the precision and high yield damage for heavy missiles and the longer range and high yield damage for the heavy assault missiles. Widowmaker precision (no HAM comparison so closest missile would be the hellfire javelin assault missile) Explosion radius: 75m Max flight time: 5.25 seconds Max velocity: 3,250 m/sec Thermal damage: 135 Hellfire javalin AM Explosion radius: 125m max flight time: 8 seconds max velocity: 3,500 m/sec thermal damage: 85 Widowmaker fury (hellfire rage is comparable for the HAM variant) Explosion radius: 125m Max flight time: 6 seconds Max velocity: 3,000 m/sec Thermal damage: 175 Hellfire rage AM Explosion radius: 200m max flight time: 4 seconds max velocity: 1,500 m/sec thermal damage: 120 Damage wise NONE of these missiles will outperform heavy missiles unless you where useing widowmaker precision missiles and then only for the high yield damage version of the HAM's. Range wise NONE of these missiles will outperform heavy missiles unless you where useing Hellfire javelin's and those really give up alot in damage they do. Explosion radius? nope dont look here either to choose the HAM's over heavy. 5 T2 heavy launchers & 2 T2 turrets will fit fine with an 2x T2 adaptive, 1x T2 thermic and 1x MAR T2 an T2 sensor booster (why did i fit it i dont know seemed like fun ) and 2x cap rechargers (no rigs). So basicly the gain for this shipbonus is really useless (asside of no version of precision heavy assault missiles either and stats are all the same or worse). Not checked the other ships but when useing an higher tier (heavy missiles) still in range of the shipclass ourperforms the lower tier (HAM) and even with a 25% bonus makes HM prefferable over HAM's then surely there must be something wrong. Anyway i really liked the ship although i will agree with the large mayority of the people saying why short ranged HAM only bonus? Guide to fix eve problems. Patch day recommendations
Veng3ance Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:04:00 - [160] Edited by: Veng3ance on 30/07/2007 20:05:08 Khanid MK2 sounds good for the most part...however, I DO NOT think the Damnation changes are very good. The ship is to slow to be a short range missile boat, and with the change to powergrid you won't be able to fit longer range missiles (which suck anyways) Honestly, the Damnation was perfectly fine. Terrible change, why would anyone fly it over a Sacrilige now? Same Damage, same tank, slow as . Great.

Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:08:00 - [161] Edited by: Exlegion on 30/07/2007 20:11:22 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 30/07/2007 19:38:26 To the devs: The Nosferatu is a module that when fitted can help you in both, PVP and PVE. If I'm missioning in low sec and get probed down/attacked by a player gang I could still use the nos to try and disable a scrambling player frig/inty. But with this nerf the rift between PVE and PVP setups becomes greater. Why? Because if I want a chance of breaking free from a gate-camp or pirate assault on a belt or mission spot I'll need to fit neutralizers which do nothing against NPCs. I don't know exactly how it works, but both Neuts and NOS affect NPC reps. The multipliers are different, so presumably Neuts are better at it. Even when I cycle a neutralizer against small NPC targets they still shield boost, MWD, and attack what seems to be normally. On big NPC targets it seems to be a waste of time and cap (my own, mind you) as well. If the neut has an effect on NPC it seems to be minimal. On the other hand, a nos, even though doesn't seem to disrupt the NPC's capacitor (or does a minimal amount of disruption), does help mine maintain sustainability during missions. And they also help ward off smaller-than-my-own-ship player intruders somewhat. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
rodgerd Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:11:00 - [162] Edited by: rodgerd on 30/07/2007 20:12:13 Originally by: Vitrael Nos changes, for Amarr: Good! You guys never have enough cap anyway. for Gallente: Ha! Now you're forced not to fly 6 nod Myrmidons / Dominixes. Are you going to whine or just fit neuts? Nah, I'm gonna whine that the Khanid close-range fighters completely WTFPWN their blasterboat equivalents. The 'higher DPS' of a Deimos is going to be worthless against a Khanid HAC that has a never-miss weapons system, a cap bonus to run an MWD, and a passive tank bonus. On the other hand, as this thread shows, any change to Amarr ships that is anything other than "Press F1, everything on your overview explodes and your inbox fills with killmails" can apparently find an endless stream of whine... -- Not the opinions of my corp.
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:15:00 - [163] Originally by: Thommy Damnation Bonus for HAM with max skills 25% Widowmaker heavy missile Explosion radius: 125m max flight time: 10 seconds max velocity: 3,750 m/sec thermal damage: 150 hellfire assault missile Explosion radius: 125m max flight time: 3 seconds max velocity: 2,250 m/sec thermal damage: 100 after bonus 125 so lower damage then heaby missiles AND alot shorter range. comparison 25 damage less on base and on base looses 30,75km range (not counting acceleration of missiles as i dont know for how much that would matter). Now the statistics for T2 missiles there are the precision and high yield damage for heavy missiles and the longer range and high yield damage for the heavy assault missiles. Widowmaker precision (no HAM comparison so closest missile would be the hellfire javelin assault missile) Explosion radius: 75m Max flight time: 5.25 seconds Max velocity: 3,250 m/sec Thermal damage: 135 Hellfire javalin AM Explosion radius: 125m max flight time: 8 seconds max velocity: 3,500 m/sec thermal damage: 85 Widowmaker fury (hellfire rage is comparable for the HAM variant) Explosion radius: 125m Max flight time: 6 seconds Max velocity: 3,000 m/sec Thermal damage: 175 Hellfire rage AM Explosion radius: 200m max flight time: 4 seconds max velocity: 1,500 m/sec thermal damage: 120 Damage wise NONE of these missiles will outperform heavy missiles unless you where useing widowmaker precision missiles and then only for the high yield damage version of the HAM's. Range wise NONE of these missiles will outperform heavy missiles unless you where useing Hellfire javelin's and those really give up alot in damage they do. Explosion radius? nope dont look here either to choose the HAM's over heavy. 5 T2 heavy launchers & 2 T2 turrets will fit fine with an 2x T2 adaptive, 1x T2 thermic and 1x MAR T2 an T2 sensor booster (why did i fit it i dont know seemed like fun ) and 2x cap rechargers (no rigs). So basicly the gain for this shipbonus is really useless (asside of no version of precision heavy assault missiles either and stats are all the same or worse). Not checked the other ships but when useing an higher tier (heavy missiles) still in range of the shipclass ourperforms the lower tier (HAM) and even with a 25% bonus makes HM prefferable over HAM's then surely there must be something wrong. Anyway i really liked the ship although i will agree with the large mayority of the people saying why short ranged HAM only bonus? Not that I don't agree HAM-only is too limiting, but did you stop to consider DPS, not just damage? The ROF makes HAMs pretty darn good at DPS. The problem I see is the limited range making the Sac and Damnation too predictable and not very versatile. You could try ___ Javelin T2 HAMs, but they give a terrible speed nerf, so you still have a hard time maintaining the necessary range, plus you get less damage in the tradeoff.
AdmiralFreeman	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:17:00 - [164] Why changes and again changes to ships and modules and useless features like heat..... would prefer you would invest your time in giving us a lag-free/desync free gaming environement instead of making modules and ships useless. Nos has been around in its current form for as long as I play the game, and has always worked out fine.... implementing changes to satisfy the whiners is a weak thing to do !! what's the next thing they will start to complain about and that you will change to satisfy them ? Curse/pilgrim and very common Domi setup will be rendered useless by it.... Not happy at all about your proposed changes to Nos !!!! can't really comment on the Khanid changes as I never flew one, but looking at the posts from the guy's who know, they are not very happy about it too. Can't you guy's not leave things as they are, we all invested in ships and setups that now will become useless and worthless if you implement this.. experience learned us this time after time, just for a example look at the prices of the T2 nanofibre's before and after you nerf it...
Albreich	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:23:00 - [165] Edited by: Albreich on 30/07/2007 20:23:59 The NOS nerf is far far too heavy. I know everyone complains about the Curse/Pilgrim specifically (I just finished training recon V so I could use a curse effectively) but lets have a comparison shall we? No, you can't counter the Curse's 4-5 bonused Nos with your own single injector, but why should you be able to? Try countering 4-5 ECM with a single ECCM, or 4-5 webbers with a single MWD, or 4-5 Damps with a single sensorbooster, or 4-5 TDs with a TC. This nerf isn't just to a mod, its taking a specific racial ship into the toilet of its class, completely out of line with the other races. Boo on whoever thought this was a fair and balanced change. Come up with something else, or add mitigating bonuses to the ships that are quite literally dependant on the current functionality to be useful.
Velt Lhasar Generals Of Destruction Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:29:00 - [166] Fendahl...Tux...whoever thought up this wet turd can go stick a hairbrush where the sun dont shine. Ive been training up amarr since i started playing in the hope one day amarr will stop being the laughinstock of the eve universe. well now? sub is canceled, and its not like anybody will want any amarr stuff anyway.
Nyarlothotep The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:31:00 - [167] Why not the bonus of the curse and others affect the neuts as well as the nos?
Mithfindel Amarr Ordo Crucis Argenteus	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:39:00 - [168] On the Khanid changes: If they get a cap bonus, what about letting them have their turrets, as well? This would allow them fit lasers, if needed (basically, the Damnation, if having all three gang assist modules had left four slots, which the pilot could fit with either lasers or missiles). Naturally, they will be cap-wise a bit worse, but still it would be an option for those of us. Admittedly, the Khanid change I'd personally like (and one in line with the fiction) would be to make them shield tanking laser boats. If the resist bonuses would be applied to shields and slots changed accordingly, it would make them viable passive tankers, partially fixing the laser cap problem. Though again, it is mostly useless to call any Khanid boat to be in line in fiction, since their bonuses are anti-Minmatar whereas the only people they share border with are Amarr. (Anti-Amarr bonuses with a passive shield tank would be quite nice indeed.)
musgrattio Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:49:00 - [169] Edited by: musgrattio on 30/07/2007 20:50:40 The Damnation nerf is exceptionally bad. You surprise me there, leave it alone please. Also, the ONLY pilots that are liking this Amarr change are either: A) Pilots that got tired of Amarr nerfs and trained Caldari. B) Caldari pilots. You are totally ****ing off true Amarr pilots, why can't you just fix Amarr? As for NOS changes, they're not too bad, but please tweak pilgrim/curse/baalghorn, let them retain some of their former glory, and not become the worst recons/faction BS respectively. Also, since NOS is losing most of its appeal, please look at its fitting requirements, and take a look at the Neut's as well. Maybe reduce PG/CPU use of both by 5%? My main problem is this game is becoming a cap game. EDIT: Cap has always been important, this is just adding more work, though it does nerf nos to a good degree.
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:51:00 - [170] Originally by: Nyarlothotep Why not the bonus of the curse and others affect the neuts as well as the nos? From the Show Info on the Curse: "Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level" They do affect both modules. Some folks are making comments without even knowing the bonuses.

Gregster	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:53:00 - [171] If u want to give a ship bonus for rocket, give them velocity bonus for rockets too.Without it malediction will be useles. Try to hit something with t1 rocket or dmg rockets without 50% velocity bonus from ship. it will still be useless without it.
Hyuuga Veralis Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:53:00 - [172] Maybe my math sucks, but I fail to see how a 5 launcher damnation, with a dmg bonus, can outdamage a 6 launcher NH with a ROF bonus (dmg is 25%dps boost, rof is 33% rof boost). HAMs or HMs, the NH is superior DPS... Unless you plan to make the NH complete garbage again. The changes look awesome though, might have to train amarr so I can have a High DPS missile PvP ship with an outright insane tank. If people thought a passive NH wa trouble, Damnations look like hell on EVE>
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:56:00 - [173] This is what we like to see woot - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
wettestwillie Gallente Scotopia	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:00:00 - [174] First I trained caldari cruiser 5 hoping to use a rook, NERF. Now I thought id do amarr cruiser 5 and get a pilgrim, NERF. I demand a skill redistribution system for everyone with any amarr SP. Gallente cruiser 5 for me please, Ishtar is still the highest DPS HAC out there, untill they read this post and nerf it next patch.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:00:00 - [175] Well since giving the amarr such missiles, why not give The Domi 6 missile slots and boost its pg to 12500 same as a phoon atlest it could be usefull for something. without nos a domi is a stink bag, and cant beat bc or hacs, lol even 2 frigs could take out a domi now.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:01:00 - [176] Originally by: Sakura Nihil CCP needs to make changes from time to time, the day they start concerning themselves more with "this will make people mad" than "this is imbalanced and needs fixed" is the day we start to see substandard game balancing and a status quo. They need tweaking, but its a start. Lol, that is funny mate. You must not have been playing Eve long. I remember the day tomb announced drone user were getting bonuses to damage type when they made all the drone changes a while back. There was such a storm on the forums that Tomb finally admited how much of a tard he was and took it back (shame they just didnt fire his dumb butt) Yeah sure its fine for drone users to whine about crap bonuses but caldari are still stuck with that dumb kin bonuses... yeah whatever your a noob.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:01:00 - [177] Every race but the gallates have a Missile boat now fix the Domi to be a missile boat as well.
Yakumo Smith Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:03:00 - [178] Thanks for the Amarr boosts CCP. First EANM and now NOS. Let me know when we get to change our skill points to another race so I can start giving a damn again.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:04:00 - [179] The Damnation needs more cpu. Please. Not fitable with named stuff. It lost grid, give it cpu back. Thanks. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Ruff Ceyx Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:11:00 - [180] Nos changes - They do need a nerf atm, but wow, you do realise you just castrated Amarrian recons right, not to mention nos dependant amarrian ships.. Personally i think it should be diminishing returns the lower your targets cap is, perhaps to nothing when Capacitor reaches 25% or so, therefore if somone wants to completely drain you, they must use Neuts. Khanid MK whatever- Wow, just wow...Its so wrong on so many levels its not even funny. All i can say is, short range missles on a slow ship. Id like to say more, but then ill just get banned from the boards. -------------------------------------------

Granth Roden	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:14:00 - [181] Finally the Nosferatu is being looked into! The implementation being proposed presents some problems, though. 1 - The fact that it only works if the victim has more cap has a logic, but it totally constrains pvp. It creates ridiculous situations (target hoarding cap, nosfer throwing it away). It also means it is almost useless to carry unless you got an anti-cap setup on your ship. Make it depend on remaining target cap by all means, but not that way. Add a modifier for the ships own cap if you like (the more it has the less it drains) but make them independent. 2 - Make Nosf be dependent on target ship cap size or (cap per second) for its effect, thus effectively making it less effective for frigs and more on big ships. Nosf size would effectively "cap" that effect, thus a large nosf would take about the same from a frig as a small nosf more from cruiser and most from BS. A small nosf would take about the same from a frig, but no more from a cruiser or BS. This effectively fixes the "big nosfs pwn frigs" problem, while still keeping them viable. 3 - Add faloff modifiers to nosfs and neutralizers. Its totally ridiculous that at 20 klicks all works, and at 20 klicks + 1 centimeter it doesn't. Physics doesn't work that way and it feels wrong (same for webbers and such) The falloff should have an important effect (start at 50% of range), but if thats not desired make the falloff about 10% of range. Good patch everybody!
Acacia Everto State War Academy	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:19:00 - [182] I don't like the NOS nerf here. I could see it NOSing less as the target ran out, but not being able to NOS at all when their cap < your cap doesn't seem right. I'd suggest you look this over again and instead make it ratio based, so those running high cap need setups with NOS don't suddenly run out of cap at the worst times. I can see running my reps to be able to NOS, then a NOS cycle or two later our cap is equalized. I rep again and NOS more, but our combined cap will eventually get low enough to the point where I can't run reps, making both ships worthless defensively, but taking away an energy ship's greatest strength. The Dominix for example is a bit overpowered in that respect, but a good part of its offensive ability comes from being able to weaken enemy tanks and allow its drones to take out the target.
Stormchanter	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:20:00 - [183] there's no update patch for SiSi from the current tranqility version of 35183... How are we supposed to test this if we can't update, cause all your available SiSi patches are from some version other than the current game version
Alz Shado Ever Flow FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:24:00 - [184] Complicated fixes ftl. I'm all for a change to NOSes, but the procedure seems like jumping through hoops to fix a tiny, specific problem. It violates the "small and graceful" law of gaming rules: If you can't explain it in one sentence to someone who has never played before, it's a bad rule.
Johho Bulon Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:25:00 - [185] It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. --------------- Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:26:00 - [186] Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis Maybe my math sucks, but I fail to see how a 5 launcher damnation, with a dmg bonus, can outdamage a 6 launcher NH with a ROF bonus (dmg is 25%dps boost, rof is 33% rof boost). HAMs or HMs, the NH is superior DPS... Unless you plan to make the NH complete garbage again. The changes look awesome though, might have to train amarr so I can have a High DPS missile PvP ship with an outright insane tank. If people thought a passive NH wa trouble, Damnations look like hell on EVE> Its not your math it's your comparison. the Damnation is compared to the vulture/Eos/Claymore, the other Fleet command ships. So your comparison is worthless anyway. As for the NOS changes. If your running NOS you'll want a highly unstable cap setup on your own ship, forget trying to balance your cap. Also you'll want to start spreading your NOS onto ships your not trying to kill atm, Suggest low slots being Reactor controls instead of Power Diagnostics to allow for the more PG intensive neuts. A little thought and its not hard to figure out how to work with it. -----------------------------------------------
DEATHB1RD	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:31:00 - [187] Originally by: Johho Bulon for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. couldn't agree more! evolution! new modules that counter old modules... what you do looks like moving backwards.... make your balancing look like moving forward!
Shoukei	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:38:00 - [188] Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif Suggest low slots being Reactor controls instead of Power Diagnostics to allow for the more PG intensive neuts. A little thought and its not hard to figure out how to work with it. low slots for reactor controls instead of tank on a nos boat? great suggestion, you must fly the caldari. caldari nos boats are well known and renown throughout eve.
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:39:00 - [189] having had some time to think about it... You are leaving Amarr pilots with too few turret slots in the vengeance and malediction. You should take away 1 turret slot rather then 2, allowing for more variety in fitting, and to be fair to all the people who trained up t2 lasers to pilot maledictions and vengeances, who have now been left to freeze to death in the vacuum of space. If someone hasn't taken time to train up missiles, they are now left with a ship they have spent several million skill points to use, and they can no longer fit weapons onto it. This is really a giant kick in the balls to a lot of Amarr pilots, who will now need to train the several level 5 skills required to be an effective missile user. You're talking about over a month of training to be able to effectively use ships that were effective to begin with, even though they had some balance issues. Please note that the person who's idea you decided to use to modify Khanid ships clearly thought the same thing, and did not remove turret slots from the vengeance or the malediction in his proposed changes. Of course, I suppose you could use a retribution or a crusader if you wanted your turrets back.... ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth
Shin Ra Origin Unknown.	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:42:00 - [190] There is one really REALLY bad thing with the nos changes that must be addressed. The skill "Energy Emissions Systems" reduces cap need for neuts. If the changes are implemented the way they are now, it will be MORE desirable for nos ships that use a neut or two to have this skills lower (kind of like the old Electronic warfare skill everyone kept at lvl 1). Surely something here must be addressed as having Energy Emissions System are 5 is a huge disadvantage.

Abbadon Caldari Pukin' Dogs D0GMA	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:48:00 - [191] A sad day for Amarr We wanted more Amarr skilled pilots flying Amarr ships, not Caldari test drivers. .
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:50:00 - [192] Quit crying you big babies! Heavy Neuts stop ceptors better then a Nos anyway.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:53:00 - [193] Thanks for the blawg. :) Overall, my initial reaction is that the direction of the changes are mostly very promising, though I expect a lot of tweaking will need to be done. One criticism: both Khanid and NOS changes are so large, it might have made sense to split it in two, just for the sake of clarity and organization in all the ~~kneejerk blubbering~~...carefully considered feedback you're getting. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:53:00 - [194] While I love the changes to the Damnation's arsenal I seriously doubt taking away the grid is a good idea.
Callthetruth Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:54:00 - [195] well as a t2 amarr AF and HAC trained pilot i gotta say havent trained missile skills ( so thats on the cards) i mean the zealot, retribution etc stay as is ( CCP how about giving us some expanded amarr all round af laser platform now u nuttered the sacridege and vengence) perhaps one of hte other amarr sub groups can get their own t2 type ships ie 4 high 3 mid and 4 low laser AF, same goes with teh HACs. NOS changes are good i recon there will be some nerfage and chnages there. NOS changes hit the calderi to esp since their NOS to rechrage shield is getting castrated. NOS changes were always going to cause an uproar.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:55:00 - [196] First carriers, right before I finish training for it. Now the curse, right before I finish training for it. I'm afraid to train for anything else... "A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:57:00 - [197] damnation needs more cpu and please give it heavy missile bonus as well. damnation is slow as hell and with limited range kind of of useless Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:10:00 - [198] this nerf will boost everyone whoms sheild tank even,more cuse they use there cap faster than armor tankers, and those will be able to use there cap and drain alot better than anyone else.
Titus Lewis Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:12:00 - [199] Can you please just fix lasers? Please? Pretty Please?
IHaveTenFingers Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:17:00 - [200] I reccomend changing the tracking disruption bonus on the curse (i use an arbitrator if im planning to tracking jam, honestly) to a 10-15% cap use reduction for energy neuts only (not transfers), so the curse can still have a reason to exist. -TF

Temugen Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:20:00 - [201] ROFL...that NOS NERF is the stupidest idea ive ever seen. Im ok with a nos change of some sort but i couldnt even have imagined that it would be so stupid. ccp strikes again. I love carebears....Tastey >: )
Silpher The Blackstone Group Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:22:00 - [202] Edited by: Silpher on 30/07/2007 22:22:47 I can't believe there is so much support for this nonsense! I could care less about the Amarr changes, but nerfing the NOS? Wtf? You know what? Sensor damps are overpowered. I say, if the sensor Damp effectiveness is 50%, and you are 50km away from your target, and the targets base range is 100km, it should only affect the excess range beyond the target. i.e. W/ Out Damp (him)<50km>(you)<50km>(his base range) With Damp (him)<50km>(you)<25km>(his new base range) See, it still works, but not for you. You wanna change ** around in Eve? Fix your bugs first. Reimburse my ship when I lose it to lag/desync, better yet, fix desync. End high sec, suicide ganks. Keep griefers from bumping miners off roids repeatedly because they have small***s. This nerf is unnecissary, unnasked for, and just plane stupid. --- If after I post my opinion, you feel the need to say, "Oh, guess what BRUCE thinks," go put on a tinfoil hat and praise jesus. It's MY opinion, not BRUCEs.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:22:00 - [203] Originally by: Temugen ROFL...that NOS NERF is the stupidest idea ive ever seen. Im ok with a nos change of some sort but i couldnt even have imagined that it would be so stupid. ccp strikes again. Temugen of the molotov coalition said it, so it must be right.
Per Bastet Amarr B.O.O.M	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:24:00 - [204] I for one Welcome these new changes as my Malidiction will now have a use other than collecting dust
Temugen Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:25:00 - [205] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Originally by: Temugen ROFL...that NOS NERF is the stupidest idea ive ever seen. Im ok with a nos change of some sort but i couldnt even have imagined that it would be so stupid. ccp strikes again. Temugen of the molotov coalition said it, so it must be right. rofl..flaming other players in the dev blog?...nonono noob I love carebears....Tastey >: )
Silpher The Blackstone Group Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:27:00 - [206] Originally by: Per Bastet I for one Welcome these new changes as my Malidiction will now have a use other than collecting dust Not sure what you mean by that. I fly interceptors regularly, and NOS is rarely, RARELY used on me. I see SBs more often than I see NOS. If NOS kept you from flying your ceptor, you should just go ahead and keep it in the docking bay. --- If after I post my opinion, you feel the need to say, "Oh, guess what BRUCE thinks," go put on a tinfoil hat and praise jesus. It's MY opinion, not BRUCEs.
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:31:00 - [207] Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. You've hit the nail right on the head, and smashed it right through the plank of wood that is the Dev Teams idea Block at times. Sorry Devs, but this needs some serious contemplation. Customs has your gear - use this time to change the nos nerf to a nos FIX. Thanks. Izo Azlion. --- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:33:00 - [208] NOS - Cap-wastong tanks can still benifit largely from NOS (Shield tanker and Speed Tankers) This might put shield tanking back in on the PvP area, however speedtanking will also prob get a boost. Basically wasting alot of cap (taking little dmg and dishing good dmg) while draining when both are close to 0 Missiles and Projectiles can still fire. Khanid - Im caldari 100%.. im training for Sacrilage... this will be a Cerberus on *****! Great Tank/Gank with a speed advantage and medslots to MWD/AB, Web, Scram, Cap Boost. Plus a highslot for a nos/neut and 15 dronebay. Only advantage Cerberus have is Range... And we all know how good range is in PvP on HACs and Missiles. It will generally be heavy outdamaged, outtanked, outrunned... Really i believe all Caldarian Missile Boats (heck all Caldari ships) deserves better speed :/ The Sacrilage will be every Caldarians wet HAC dream! I might be wrong in these assumtions thou since perhaps fitting restrictions and such will make builds like these not happen... thoughts? :) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Silpher The Blackstone Group Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:34:00 - [209] Originally by: Izo Azlion Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. You've hit the nail right on the head, and smashed it right through the plank of wood that is the Dev Teams idea Block at times. Sorry Devs, but this needs some serious contemplation. Customs has your gear - use this time to change the nos nerf to a nos FIX. Thanks. /Signed /Signed /and signed some more. --- If after I post my opinion, you feel the need to say, "Oh, guess what BRUCE thinks," go put on a tinfoil hat and praise jesus. It's MY opinion, not BRUCEs.
Dern Morrow D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:34:00 - [210] Cry time. Command Ships 5 T2 Med Projectile + Med Arty + Med Beam + Med Pules Missile skills? Not even on my character sheet. WTS every ship I own. Going cheap. Actually I do own one Absolution, thank god you haven't touched that. But I guess my Damnation is gonna be somewhat worthless now... and my Sac... Malediction... Vengeance... -- im in ur stargate pwning ur noobz

yoni	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:41:00 - [211] seriously, can you just fix lasers instead of giving us CALMARR ships?
Temugen Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:44:00 - [212] Originally by: Silpher Originally by: Izo Azlion Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. You've hit the nail right on the head, and smashed it right through the plank of wood that is the Dev Teams idea Block at times. Sorry Devs, but this needs some serious contemplation. Customs has your gear - use this time to change the nos nerf to a nos FIX. Thanks. /Signed /Signed /and signed some more. /SIGNED and thanks for expressing what most ppl in eve think in such eloquent terms I love carebears....Tastey >: )
IHaveTenFingers Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:45:00 - [213] you know, im a frequent nos domi pilot, this doesnt upset me at all.. Triple-rep cap injected medium neut domi is on the way, methinks. -TF
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:48:00 - [214] Originally by: Fager NOS - Cap-wastong tanks can still benifit largely from NOS (Shield tanker and Speed Tankers) This might put shield tanking back in on the PvP area, however speedtanking will also prob get a boost. Basically wasting alot of cap (taking little dmg and dishing good dmg) while draining when both are close to 0 Missiles and Projectiles can still fire. Khanid - Im caldari 100%.. im training for Sacrilage... this will be a Cerberus on *****! Great Tank/Gank with a speed advantage and medslots to MWD/AB, Web, Scram, Cap Boost. Plus a highslot for a nos/neut and 15 dronebay. Only advantage Cerberus have is Range... And we all know how good range is in PvP on HACs and Missiles. It will generally be heavy outdamaged, outtanked, outrunned... Really i believe all Caldarian Missile Boats (heck all Caldari ships) deserves better speed :/ The Sacrilage will be every Caldarians wet HAC dream! I might be wrong in these assumtions thou since perhaps fitting restrictions and such will make builds like these not happen... thoughts? :) Emmm sheild tanking is allready the best option for pvp. you got alot more res, faster heal, more mods to fix your setup with free low slot witch ohhh you can use to imporve your sheilds with there aint alot of med slots to boost armor tanking other than making your cap better. but your right this will make the sheild tanks even better cuse they use there cap 3 times faster than armor tankers, and will be even more powerfull,
Orion Eridanus Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:59:00 - [215] I'm liking the Nos change, its finally giving me the option to drop my passive drake set up and fit some tackle gear on it for solo pvp. Unable to unanchor batteries? Dont dispair, it's not a bug its a feature
Yunii Oser's Shipping and Manufacturing Inc. Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:09:00 - [216] I got some fumunda cheese to go with the Nos whiners... Granted it needed some tweaking but that change is just R-tarded.. ------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Arkanon I think this thread also illustrates perfectly that we neither censor nor do we try to silence our customers.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:14:00 - [217] Originally by: General StarScream Originally by: Fager NOS - Cap-wastong tanks can still benifit largely from NOS (Shield tanker and Speed Tankers) This might put shield tanking back in on the PvP area, however speedtanking will also prob get a boost. Basically wasting alot of cap (taking little dmg and dishing good dmg) while draining when both are close to 0 Missiles and Projectiles can still fire. Khanid - Im caldari 100%.. im training for Sacrilage... this will be a Cerberus on *****! Great Tank/Gank with a speed advantage and medslots to MWD/AB, Web, Scram, Cap Boost. Plus a highslot for a nos/neut and 15 dronebay. Only advantage Cerberus have is Range... And we all know how good range is in PvP on HACs and Missiles. It will generally be heavy outdamaged, outtanked, outrunned... Really i believe all Caldarian Missile Boats (heck all Caldari ships) deserves better speed :/ The Sacrilage will be every Caldarians wet HAC dream! I might be wrong in these assumtions thou since perhaps fitting restrictions and such will make builds like these not happen... thoughts? :) Emmm sheild tanking is allready the best option for pvp. you got alot more res, faster heal, more mods to fix your setup with free low slot witch ohhh you can use to imporve your sheilds with there aint alot of med slots to boost armor tanking other than making your cap better. but your right this will make the sheild tanks even better cuse they use there cap 3 times faster than armor tankers, and will be even more powerfull, Well its true that a full shield tank is nasty, however that means no Gank (scram/web). Couple this with the fact the the sacrilage will have double resist bonuses to armor wich from start has better resist then shield, were talking some major resists here. a full T2 armor tank vs a full cerberus t2 shield tank, the cerberus might take that.. but the Sacri will in this case also have better dmg, web+scram, better speed, possibility of MWD+cap booster.. Well its all still in teory.. the fitting reqs might hinder the sacri to fit it all out.. A cerberus still shines in range+EW possibilities (gang fittings)... However its proven time after time how Range and missiles doesnt go togheter especially when you cant scram or web at range. They should make Scram and perhaps also Web a highslot really... this would put the fitting pain of them to hurt both armor and shield tankers (shield still has speed modules+cap+just about every Ewar modules while lows has dmg+speed mods) Missile ships has been longing for a way to tank&gank for a long time now, it was either give caldari back the speed and agility or give us armor tanked missiles boats!! (well amarr got em but who cares :) ) still dreaming of having my agility and speed back, atleast to caldari missile boats. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Zikka The Establishment	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:15:00 - [218] Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: Dr Aryandi Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: Dr Aryandi Originally by: General Apocalypse And please answer this question : How do you kill and interceptor whidout another interceptor or Neut Take off your Nos, replace it with a Neut... That's what I'm planning to do... You fail at reading 101 Not at all. I was pointing out that you listed your solution in with your complaint... Are you gonna fit a neut on your mega or do you like to have any 2 cents ceptor rendering you imobile forever I don't fly a mega...but I guess that is the choice you have to make now. Do you fit a neutralizer to deal with intercepters or do you fit a nosferatu to help on bigger targets - or do you find something else entirely to use that slot for. I know I will switch my nos to a neut on my raven...
Eidelon The Zero Nexus	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:23:00 - [219] With regard to Nos, this is depressing rather than interesting, in that one trains hard to fly expensive ships like the Curse, with specific bonuses, only to find them rendered ordinary. The same thing happened with EW. Ships designed to nos and neutralise should be able to do so very well, not quite well. CCP: you got us to lust after the black shiny buggers, so please don't giggle in our faces now we have spent a lot of time and money on them. More generally, I fully support the comments deploring the nerf mentality and calling instead for an improvement cycle. The game needs space and scope for the exceptional and the flamboyant to appear across all the different ways of fighting otherwise it becomes even more of an ship-fitting discussion group for techno-obsessives than it currently is. Hopefully the Curse and Pilgrim will not suffer the same cack-handed treatment dealt out to the Caldari EW ships and the Devs will remember they are actually specifically designed to use the energy sucking weapons for offense rather than defence. But of course whatever happens, we will adapt, albeit with some regret that the game has had another bit of interesting high ground scraped away to satisfy people who want to hike rather than mountaineer. Oh - and if the nerf goes through and nothing else changes, please give us a read-out that shows the target ship's capacitor so we can juggle nos and neut more effectively.
Brunswick2 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:28:00 - [220] I really don't like the new heretic changes. From what you described, it looks like the heretic will be a more limited harder to fit version of the flycatcher.

Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:30:00 - [221] For those that whine about missiles on amarr ships, take a look at other race¦s bonuses on their hacs. Gallente have drones/hybrids, caldari missiles/nybrids, minmatar howitzers/autocannons and amarr had lasers/lasers. I support the idea of a missiles spewing sac but the idea in the ships forum a year ago was better than this crap. I¦d like to see a dev reply from a dev that actually used the ships that he is changing in the this way. But thats just me dreaming, devs dont play nor do they have a clue how to effectivly change the game to the better. Nossing a target based on its cap... whatever you smoke, get yourself a better dealer. Ship lovers click here
Brunswick2 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:38:00 - [222] Originally by: Hellspawn01 For those that whine about missiles on amarr ships, take a look at other race¦s bonuses on their hacs. Gallente have drones/hybrids, caldari missiles/nybrids, minmatar howitzers/autocannons and amarr had lasers/lasers. But none of the other t2 variants have the bonuses limiting the ship to the short range. It would be slightly better if they changed the bonuses to all missiles and gave the pg to actually fit it well with missiles.
matsimo akura	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:39:00 - [223] terrible changes
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:41:00 - [224] Originally by: Brunswick2 Originally by: Hellspawn01 For those that whine about missiles on amarr ships, take a look at other race¦s bonuses on their hacs. Gallente have drones/hybrids, caldari missiles/nybrids, minmatar howitzers/autocannons and amarr had lasers/lasers. But none of the other t2 variants have the bonuses limiting the ship to the short range. It would be slightly better if they changed the bonuses to all missiles and gave the pg to actually fit it well with missiles. You think the one that came up with the idea thought that far? Ship lovers click here
Baynex Amarr Lasciate Ogne Speranza	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:49:00 - [225] Originally by: Temugen Originally by: Silpher Originally by: Izo Azlion Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. You've hit the nail right on the head, and smashed it right through the plank of wood that is the Dev Teams idea Block at times. Sorry Devs, but this needs some serious contemplation. Customs has your gear - use this time to change the nos nerf to a nos FIX. Thanks. /Signed /Signed /and signed some more. /SIGNED and thanks for expressing what most ppl in eve think in such eloquent terms /signed and if you implement this i might cancel my account....cause all my skill training will be rendered useless from the last 2 years ñ~Baynex
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:53:00 - [226] im gonna put neuts on a pilgrim ya cool. oh im also gonna have a large use for my +5% to SMALL lasers since a ret cant solo. meebe i should fly my malediction nope cant get a bonus on that. Vengeance? you know the answer to that. so for tech 2 frig ships i have the sader and well thats not really my style nor the dps to kill anything in my book. cool iin my book Confused oh and missiles on a sac yah ive always wanted that Sad trained up med pulse spec 5 for that very cause . so meh ill adapt prolly but unhappy regardless. why the **** do i need more cap on a missile ship thats plain stupid. if i can tank for a helluva long time in a sac with(real) medium pulses, with the cap nerf to lasers. then why would i need a boost with no cap needed from guns? so if i make countless whines on the forums to change it back will it work cause ive got alot of time. and id rather not waste it -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
Obeih	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:02:00 - [227] Khanid changes: good for the most part. makes sense with the backstory of the Khanid. NOS changes: SUCK. Thanks for ruining the curse. What next? You can only damp someone to your current scan res? I don't see what this accomplishes besides satisfying people who can't adapt to a tactic and instead whine until things become more 'balanced'. This game isn't about fairness and it pains me to have my gaming experience and my favorite ship, mind you, nerfed to all s*** because of the aforementioned player types unwillingness to think and act for themselves. I'm done.
Cmdr Delrox Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:08:00 - [228] Originally by: Obeih Khanid changes: good for the most part. makes sense with the backstory of the Khanid. NOS changes: SUCK. Thanks for ruining the curse. What next? You can only damp someone to your current scan res? I don't see what this accomplishes besides satisfying people who can't adapt to a tactic and instead whine until things become more 'balanced'. This game isn't about fairness and it pains me to have my gaming experience and my favorite ship, mind you, nerfed to all s*** because of the aforementioned player types unwillingness to think and act for themselves. I'm done. /signed! I just spend 20 days training amarr cruiser V to fly a curse and adamnation. and lo n behold. the damnation gets its ds cut in favor of "tanking". and the curse is screwed. ENOUGH with the nerfing. Life is unfair, deal with it, adapt and move on. My god CCP. stop turning this game into something an 8yr old can play. I play this game because its challenging, not because its easy. If I wanted easy I'd go play WoW.
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:10:00 - [229] CCP: If these NOS changes go live, you have my subscription until the day the EVE server goes down for the last time. Brilliant, chaps.
Alpha Type Gallente Belief in Antimatter	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:10:00 - [230] Excellent changes in this dev blog! The change to nos has been a long time coming, but it's a sensible, balanced approach that will go far to making nos and neuts a strategic module, rather than a no-brainer. Counter-modules have been shown time and time again to be counter-productive and unwanted on ships as we don't have a massive degree of freedom in fitting. The Khanid mk2 changes are also very welcome, and add variation to a race that has needed it badly for years now, as they have mentioned many times. A set of well-tanked close range ships is very much in line with the major aspects of the Amarr ethos, and missiles are an interesting path to vary the skills of Amarr pilots. I imagine some aspects of the changes will need tweaking, perhaps altering the curse and pilgrim's bonuses to help the preserve a niche role, whilst not being quite as overpowered as they were previously. Testing on sisi will surely give some clues as to the viabiliy and usefulness of the Khanid brand in combat, but overall the changes are promising. Please don't give into to naysayers who wish to keep a mechanic that has for too long spoiled the way battles in eve are fought; and keep faith with Khanid mark 2 for those Amarr pilots who need a bit of variation. Keep up the good work chaps!

Altaic Bits	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:12:00 - [231] Originally by: Oedus Caro CCP: If these NOS changes go live, you have my subscription until the day the EVE server goes down for the last time. Brilliant, chaps. Quote: Excellent changes in this dev blog! The change to nos has been a long time coming, but it's a sensible, balanced approach that will go far to making nos and neuts a strategic module, rather than a no-brainer. Counter-modules have been shown time and time again to be counter-productive and unwanted on ships as we don't have a massive degree of freedom in fitting. The Khanid mk2 changes are also very welcome, and add variation to a race that has needed it badly for years now, as they have mentioned many times. A set of well-tanked close range ships is very much in line with the major aspects of the Amarr ethos, and missiles are an interesting path to vary the skills of Amarr pilots. I imagine some aspects of the changes will need tweaking, perhaps altering the curse and pilgrim's bonuses to help the preserve a niche role, whilst not being quite as overpowered as they were previously. Testing on sisi will surely give some clues as to the viabiliy and usefulness of the Khanid brand in combat, but overall the changes are promising. Please don't give into to naysayers who wish to keep a mechanic that has for too long spoiled the way battles in eve are fought; and keep faith with Khanid mark 2 for those Amarr pilots who need a bit of variation. Keep up the good work chaps! Hear Hear! Excellent changes!
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:12:00 - [232] Originally by: Le Bon Curse/Pilgrim/Bhalgorn will need a bonus to stick to the old method else these ships will become useless. dont forget the domi it should have the 5% to large hybrid, and get something to nos as well
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:13:00 - [233] Originally by: Baynex Originally by: Temugen Originally by: Silpher Originally by: Izo Azlion Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. [stuff] Johho. You've hit the nail right on the head, and smashed it right through the plank of wood that is the Dev Teams idea Block at times. Sorry Devs, but this needs some serious contemplation. Customs has your gear - use this time to change the nos nerf to a nos FIX. Thanks. /Signed /Signed /and signed some more. /SIGNED and thanks for expressing what most ppl in eve think in such eloquent terms /signed and if you implement this i might cancel my account....cause all my skill training will be rendered useless from the last 2 years Totally not signed. This change fixes the problems with fighting with dissimilar ship sizes to a large degree, and really fixes the issue of nos being a module with zero downside. Amarr didn't get nerfed. There is still plenty of defence against inties for battleships. The Dominix is not useless overnight. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Minas Reul Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:13:00 - [234] Originally by: Alpha Type Excellent changes in this dev blog! The change to nos has been a long time coming, but it's a sensible, balanced approach that will go far to making nos and neuts a strategic module, rather than a no-brainer. Counter-modules have been shown time and time again to be counter-productive and unwanted on ships as we don't have a massive degree of freedom in fitting. The Khanid mk2 changes are also very welcome, and add variation to a race that has needed it badly for years now, as they have mentioned many times. A set of well-tanked close range ships is very much in line with the major aspects of the Amarr ethos, and missiles are an interesting path to vary the skills of Amarr pilots. I imagine some aspects of the changes will need tweaking, perhaps altering the curse and pilgrim's bonuses to help the preserve a niche role, whilst not being quite as overpowered as they were previously. Testing on sisi will surely give some clues as to the viabiliy and usefulness of the Khanid brand in combat, but overall the changes are promising. Please don't give into to naysayers who wish to keep a mechanic that has for too long spoiled the way battles in eve are fought; and keep faith with Khanid mark 2 for those Amarr pilots who need a bit of variation. Keep up the good work chaps! Aye, fantastic changes, this man has the right attitude.
Kherin Nighuur	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:14:00 - [235] Thanks to CCP, 5 months to skill gunnery ! 5 months for absolutly nothing ! i don't wanna become a Caldari ! You wants my reaction ... i think you just change names between amar and caldari, it's the same now ! you can simply wipe 5 or 6 amarian ships ... they become useless and they loose the amar spirit with yours changes
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:14:00 - [236] Originally by: Alpha Type Please don't give into to naysayers like they did to the nos whine *****s? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:15:00 - [237] Edited by: Mack Dorgeans on 31/07/2007 00:17:08 You know, the more I think about it, I would rather have no damage bonus to missiles and instead get an extra tanking bonus on Khanid ships. If they're supposed to be excellent tanks, then make them so. ROF bonus stays, so they can use all four damage types equally well. No missile-specific bonuses would be best -- let the pilots decide what works for them. Let the ROF affect all missile types in their size range. If you want to nudge them toward HAMs and rockets, then tweak the fitting a little, but don't force them to be short-range only. Caldari would remain the heavy hitters of missile boats, but Khanid would be the ones with unpredictable damage types, instead of being better at dealing EM/EXP/THERM but only at close range. This should be the mantra of a Khanid captain: "slow and steady wins the race." Make them the best pure armor tanks combined with missile variety offset by lower damage. Cap bonuses then play into that. They should aim to win a battle by attrition. (Edit: by the way, I mostly fly Caldari, but I have Gallente and Amarr up to command ships as well. It's nice to have different options to keep things fresh, and force me to learn new tricks.)
GetergdeKaasboer	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:17:00 - [238] Originally by: Beef Hardslab Originally by: Dav Varan But wouldn't it make more sense to make it % based on the target ship alone. The restriction based on % of own cap is gonna mean nos is only really useful in passive shield tanked ships. Drake ftw ? That's what I was thinking - passive tank drake capbuster lol I would fly a passive tanked minnie ship - with no power on the guns and now no power on the tank u could neutralize and nos a guy to death.
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:20:00 - [239] Originally by: matsimo akura terrible changes /signed Oh wait, nvm, I actually know what I'm talking about! These changes are way sweet. The only iffy change is the Damnation, but if it's way underpowered now I'll trust the blog that it will get a boost. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:27:00 - [240] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 00:31:33 You guys missed the obvious solution here. And the rest of you are idiots for cheering CCP on. The solution is to make NOS a special hardpoint, and let battleships (or almost every ship) only mount 1 or 2. However, NOS ships like pilgrim and curse should get a full rack of NOS hardpoints. Maybe Arbitrator too. You guys destroyed the only Amarr cruiser that was worth using, and you overnerfed the recons. THINK NEXT TIME CCP.. Lest this game is going to turn into Star Wars Galaxies. Oh and the changes to Khanid lack even more direction than they did before. You want Amarr to train lasers AND train missiles? What the hell?

Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:30:00 - [241] TBH I think this is an over nerf, it makes nos next to useless except for very specific purposes, and makes the pilgrim useless, and makes the curse next to useless (its going to become a missile spammer) Two Alternatives that still fix the issues with nos atm while still keeping them valid and useful 1. a straight Sig Radius Nerf (large nos do less to smaller ships) with a skill to adjust it somewhat (makes nos take skill!) with lvl 5 of the skill on a cruiser a heavy nos would be about the same as a medium nos, and a small nos on a frig. or a better option imo 2. Percentage Nerf simlar to this but not based on your own ships cap. At base skill it would allow you to take a ship down to 50% then a rank 5 skill would let you take 5% more level till you could take a ship to 25% Cap at level 5 which won't kill there tank but will put them in trouble, but would require a neut to fully dry them out. Since most will only have the skill to 4 that puts most ships at peak regen when there being nosed which means that ceptors won't lose there tackle, vagas can engage nos ships since it only needs cap for a rupter and a getaway mwd burst which being at 30% cap doesn't hurt. it really fixes 90% of the problems with nos. Gank ships with injectors can micro manage there cap below 30 and make sure the enemy ship gets now cap. also both these options keep amarr recons as viable ships where the current nerf makes it to much of a micromanaging pain that no one will both with them, since the sach will make a better missile spamming nano ship than the curse, nos boat would be pointless and neut boat is no realistic since neuts on a curse take cap like a BS neut which even with an injector will mean it can't support more than 2 with any sort of tank/speed tank
LordVodka Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:30:00 - [242] First off this nos nerf is REDICULOUS. I can name a great number of reason's why... As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet) Another over looked feature to this nos nerf is MWD ships, well how do you stop inty's vaga's, phoons that are mwd'ing outa web range. You throw some nos on them and you shut there MWD's off, but oh wait. CCP just did one of the lamest nerfs in the history of this game and now we can't shut there caps off just match there cap, whip de du dah. It's called a Energy Vampire, not a equalizer. If there needs to be a Nos nerf and in no way am I denying that nos needs a nerf, Do something more reasonable, stacking nerf the nos with the stacking system thats already in place. 1 nos is full effect, 2 nos is close to full effect, and then after that the 3rd, 4th, 5th nos's start to lose any effect to even fit. That is a nerf that could be imposed. In clonclusion, the nos nerf hurts amarr more then any other race with there highest cap use needs. secondly the nos nerf boost MWD ships to a lvl higher then they were at before the speed nerf. And finnally a new nerf needs to be imposed and this one deleted.
Azrael Maxim Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:30:00 - [243] Excellent work ccp!
LordVodka Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 - [244] Reading up i saw the nos hard point proposition, I find that acceptable. Seriously this can't actually go through, leave nos to its current effect just limit the number used or stacking penalty it PLEASE. Leave a dominix, and a geddon ships like that with 2 nos hard points, and then they will be acceptable!
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 - [245] My favorite whine in this thread is "Amarr didn't get boosted, just that Caldari got some free new ships" which can be paraphrased into. "Caldari got nerfed, train Amarr instead"
Belial Tempter Amarr Twisted Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 - [246] Edited by: Belial Tempter on 31/07/2007 00:36:55 NOS nerf is stupid. I train for months to get a curse, and then it's made useless in solo PvP. Great. I've just been testing quickly, and from what I can see the only way to kill someones cap is to kill your own, byebye MWD / tank as soon as you break their cap Havent bothered testing Pilgrim yet, same applies really tbh. Neuts kill your own cap as fast if not faster than theirs...maybe Neuts would work on a cap boosted setup? not for long tho, don't expect to kill much above cruiser I can't see flying one if this goes ahead, so guess I have to spend a month or so changing recon's / training something else to fly properly. Wonderful. So much for my carefully thought out skillplan. Maybe I should just train all races cruisers to 5 so I can be sure future 'fixes' won't affect me so much. Oh, but the passive tanked Drake Pilots are laughing their asses off as they cap you out without worrying bout theirs...guess I should have listened when someone told me it should really be called Calderi Online
Era Mercatrix	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:39:00 - [247] Excellent change! Nos/drone boats were ruining pvp, and curses being able to solo almost any non-passive tanked ship was definitely unbalanced. Great work ccp!
LordVodka Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:40:00 - [248] Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:43:59 Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:42:59 Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:42:32 Originally by: William Hamilton My favorite whine in this thread is "Amarr didn't get boosted, just that Caldari got some free new ships" which can be paraphrased into. "Caldari got nerfed, train Amarr instead" what the heck are you talking about, he's just saying amarr got missile ships now, and they may as well be caldari (As in a caldari boost not nerf), nothing in there saying to change race...
Callthetruth Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:43:00 - [249] how is this going to affect missions and NPCing, will missions be adjusted to account for NOS changes
TheDevilsLawyer	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:45:00 - [250] This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense. If I understand it correctly, the proposed nerf intends to make nosferatu a tool to sustain your own cap with instead of to suck your enemy's. While that's an excellent goal, the implementation is poor. With the proposed nerf, cap management becomes counterproductive. You'll want to lower your cap in order to sustain your cap. If you use a cap booster your nos cease to function. If you set up for cap recharge your nos cease to function. Since cap boosters and cap rechargers are more reliable than nos, is there really a point to using nos to sustain your own cap? To add to this point, rarely will nos actually take energy. Cap will drain at the same rate if all things are equal, so nos will do nothing. The nos then favours whoever uses the most cap, so whoever runs their hardeners before they need to or MWDs for the longest or whoever has LESS neutralizers. This nerf also makes nos favour people who have just come out of warp and people who are tanking rats over people who are doing nothing, as they'll have less cap so their nos will work. That doesn't make much sense, these people should be at a disadvantage. Another problem is that neuts on their own can't reliably break tanks. Tank-breaking setups relied on nos to provide the cap to run their neuts. With the changes, breaking the tank of a capital ship or another well-tanked ship is extremely difficult unless you have overwhelming firepower, since neuts cannot be sustained while cap recharging setups can. As for specific ships, the proposed nerf completely marginalizes the Curse and Pilgrim. The point of recon ships is to make the enemy helpless then kill them. Since you can't reliably do this with tracking disruptors, you rely on your nos and neuts and other types of ECM. Since nos are now incapable of making the enemy ship helpless, the new option is to fit energy neutralizers. However, fitting either a tank + neut or a speed + neut setup on either ship is already extremely difficult and using neuts with the changes is even harder because neuts on the Curse and Pilgrim rely on your nos to provide the cap to run them. In other words, there are no new viable setups for the Curse and Pilgrim that make use of their ship bonuses. Other ships also have fitting problems with neuts. too long didn't read summary: - Cap management issues make no sense with the new nos - Nosferatu can no longer be used to break tanks, neuts need to be used instead - Neutralizers need cap to sustain the energy drain, which until the nerf is provided by nos - Neutralizers without nos are unsustainable, making it difficult to break certain tanks (I'm concerned in particular with capital ships) - Because of the fitting requirements of neutralizers and the unsustainability of neutralizers, the pilgrim and the curse make poor use of the ship bonuses and the ship is not in the "recon ship" role of locking down a target and making it helpless. my suggestions: 1 Nos take an ammount of cap based on signature radius* (not tracking) -- It marginalizes the effect of heavy nos on smaller ships while still affecting the small ships in a way -- It allows the breaking of tanks with nos+neut combos, and it allows multiple specifically set up smaller ships to break the the tank of larger ships 2 (a compromise solution) Nos only take cap if the target has less cap than you, but this is based on ABSOLUTE value not percentage. So if the target has 5000 cap and you have 1000 and your nos takes 100 cap per cycle, your nos will hit for the full ammount, but if the target has 1050 cap and you have 1000 the nos will only hit for 1/2. -- It marginalizes the effect of heavy nos on smaller ships while still affecting the small ships in a way -- It allows for partial breaking of larger ship tanks 3 Change neuts to be more viable. Decrease fitting, change the way they use the user's cap, something.

TheDevilsJury GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:46:00 - [251] Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense. whoops wrong character, that was me
Sverre Haakonson Gallente SecuWay Industrial inc. SECUWAY.	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:57:00 - [252] Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense. If I understand it correctly, the proposed nerf intends to make nosferatu a tool to sustain your own cap with instead of to suck your enemy's. While that's an excellent goal, the implementation is poor. With the proposed nerf, cap management becomes counterproductive. /signed
Azumi Kurosawa	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:58:00 - [253] In the spirit of EvE i'm just going to say stop whining and adapt I certainly will be I just sold my cerbs and bought cheap sac's because these things are going to be monsters. And on that note ccp if the amarr keep moaning i'm pretty sure the caldari would be willing to do a straight swap the sac for the cerb think og it as a rp thing since there allies.
Idaeus Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:05:00 - [254] Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense. If I understand it correctly, the proposed nerf intends to make nosferatu a tool to sustain your own cap with instead of to suck your enemy's. While that's an excellent goal, the implementation is poor. With the proposed nerf, cap management becomes counterproductive. Agreed. I really don't have much more to add to that. The idea that I'll be better off letting my MWD *****my cap (then nos enemy, then eat cap boosters) is.. silly at best.
Ivan Milat GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:20:00 - [255] Originally by: Vanst Keal Sig radius penalties work for missiles, drones, and guns equally well, why not Nos too? I'm sure the creative guys could come up with something to explain why heavy Nos doesn't work at 100% efficiency on anything smaller than a battleship. This sort of karmic-balance cap interlinkage whateverthehell change is ten tons of BS in a five ton crate. Not saying that this is a perfect solution, but a sig radius penalty for Nos is the best idea so far in this thread. Even if it's not a linear radius/resolution penalty, and rather something like (radius/resolution)^x [where x > 1], that way the effect of huge nos boats on smaller ships would be minimal, and they would be reasonable on bigger ships that can handle it. Obviously transfer amounts would need to be adjusted as well,
ArcticFox Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:29:00 - [256] As a Curse pilot I'm annoyed... and as a Gistii inty pilot I'm ecstatic, and both over the exact same part of the blog... I think I need to do some soul searching. -------------------------- There is no +6 sword of WTFPWN in Eve.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:31:00 - [257] Originally by: Era Mercatrix Excellent change! Nos/drone boats were ruining pvp, and curses being able to solo almost any non-passive tanked ship was definitely unbalanced. Great work ccp! As a curse pilot - I have to agree. Curse's were FAR overpowered. In a curse, you could take on any ship 1v1 without a second thought. They were basically Vagabonds with drones and 30km Nos. Or they were cerbs depending on how you set em up. You could tank almost as much dps as a pre nerf passive tanked drake so that aspect is not going to change. They were great fun ships to have, but sadly all good things must end. -- Billion Isk Mission
Yellow Planet RONA Capital ShipYards RONA Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:46:00 - [258] ** YOU FOR *** UP THE ONLY SHIPS THAT I STILL LIKE IN THIS GAME. STUPID ICELAND*FAGGERS *** DIE AND BECOME ULTIMA ONLINE! ** OFF
Drash Kammatarr German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:50:00 - [259] Hi, I'm sick of nerfing things that need no nerf. Nos needs no nerf. period. I bet that at least 90% of the people who shout for "nerf this, nerf that" belong to the following groups: a. New players b. Players who lack skills to do better c. deriving from b, Players who will only play for a short amount of time, because they simply can't get it into their itsy bitsy tiny little brains that players who trained for months (curse/pilgrim) are actually able to destroy their mighty ibis/reaper/whatever 'of doom'. But CCP always listens to their baby-cries, and with every patch we get something dumbed down, and the gaming experience and a lot of time invested for skilltraining goes down the drain. And in the end, these nerf-crying Players leave the game for good because they notice that they need another skill for mining mercoxite when they finally arrive in 0.0 space. I have to ask my self: why do I put so much effort and time into a Game which gets destroyed piece by piece? Well...maybe I won't do so much longer ;)
Raydn James CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:50:00 - [260] Originally by: StarCommWraith Ok how about this. Simply remove Nosferatu because now with the change you have made it completely useless. Couldnt agree more. As i read the dev blog, the line that sticks out to me the most is this: "This means that the target is no worse off (energy wise) than the attacking ship." Did someone actually write that thinking it was a good idea? If the target ship is no worse off, whats the point? In the next patch, I'd also like it to be added that no ones weapons do more damage than mine so that I'm no worse off than they are. Also: tracking, # of targets locked, CPU, PG, total Cap, and number of high, medium and low slots should be the same across ship classes. What about races whose weapons take cap to fire and even more so whos AMMO also requires cap? One of the things that needs to be looked at is this: Say im in combat and I attack someone, I'm using NOS and sucking their CAP dry. Even though Im doing so, I still have to run my mods, im loosing cap to my weapons, and Im getting hit by nos at the same time. Normally I would hit a cap booster and keep going. With the proposed change (as I understand it) the NOS I had running just completly got wiped out of the equation because now my CAP is at 50% and my target is at 48% CAP. I've always been one to go after peoples CAP. Not just because I need it for my ship to function, but it's always been the easiest 'tank' to kill because very few pilots are willing to give up a mid slot to fit a cap booster. Shield tankers, Im sure, would start complaining about how they need the mids slots for their tank, and I would agree. Since that is the case, make cap boosters that fit in both mid and low slots. Lots of people have been saying 'Just fit neuts'. To them I say, look at the PG reqirement difference on a Large NOS and its corosponding Large Neut. On lots of ships, PG is so cramped as it is, and some people are already fitting Reactor Control's to just get full weapon fits on their ship. Amarr and Gallente take the biggest hits with this NOS nerf. If something must be done (and im on the fence about that) this definately shouldnt beit. I also had to agree with the post that we are constantally getting hit with nerf's to module after module instead of adding things to bolster our ships (or in this case CAP) against attack. A module to protect a ships cap against a NOS attack would be way more interesting than the proposed change. What happened to giving us the options and letting the pilot decide the best way to fit his ship?

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:05:00 - [261] Originally by: Yellow Planet ** YOU FOR *** UP THE ONLY SHIPS THAT I STILL LIKE IN THIS GAME. STUPID ICELAND*FAGGERS *** DIE AND BECOME ULTIMA ONLINE! ** OFF AAHHHH there we go, I was wondering if there was anyone that hated the changes :) I was like nos change? let me read the comments frist to see how my flames there are :) now to the dev blog. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:07:00 - [262] Edited by: Wrayeth on 31/07/2007 02:12:52 Wow...the sacrilege kicks ass. I think I'll be training Amarr cruiser 5 next, which will get me into both Amarr cruisers and command ships. I was thinking about buying another cerberus to replace the one I lost a while back due to a piloting error, but I think I'll be buying a sacrilege instead. P.S. Dammit, now I have to go buy faction neutralizers to replace the nos on several of my ships. Damn yooz! Damn yooz all to hell! -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:10:00 - [263] Coming from a seasoned Amarr pilot, specialised in Pilgrims, Curses, and other Amarr ships... The Pilgrim and Curse are now utterly useless... Particularly the Pilgrim, as it lacks the high slots to fit an effective NEUT/NOS combi. This nerf to NOS also promotes blobbing/ganking... When you're in a BS running away from a fleet, usual tactic is to NOS their ceptors dry, then warp off... Now the ceptor will always catch you and hold you for the blob to arrive... If you have to fit a NEUT now, it nerfs the setup for any other form of combat. Also... Rockets only on a Ceptor? Gratz on rendering the Malediction completely useless! The point of a ceptor is to tackle outside web range... Get webbed and you die, whether you have an extra 25% resists or not! Rockets force you in to web range, which forces you to lose a ship. This now leaves Amarr with no good Ceptors as the Crusader only has 2 mids (also useless). So after promising Amarr buffs for three years, we get another nerf... Great job, CCP, you've really excelled yourselves this time... And no, no-one can have my stuff... Latest Video, Click Here!
Calderio Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:22:00 - [264] changes to amarr are **, I should have stuck with traditional caldari roles from the start, now i have to train missles too. , , super , mega , and ** listen to me on bob radio, heavy metal, random babbling, and live forum coverage.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:24:00 - [265] I love the ammar boost CCP! Sacrilege (Heavy Assault Ship), OMG. also the new rocket smashing ship is fantastic. with the nos change (it's not a nerf by any means, you still get your increased cap recharge) it means this ship is able to actully tank even if webbed by the battleship. With the best cap in the game and no lasers equiped this makes the ammar danagerous as hell. however now for the ugly, (yes unlike most people I look for both good and bad in changes) nos change makes the cruse hard to fit because of the fitting requirements. you should increase it's bonus to nuet output by 200% but not the cap it uses. thus allowing one ship (and bloodraiders) the only ships in th game tht can use the old nos style. err why did you make the command ship so weak? it should be weapons that you use on other BC's not cruisers. increase it's PW a little and slap torp bonus on it. nos warfare is just a bit over nerfed but I think I'll posta thread about that in general :P ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:25:00 - [266] As a curse pilot (trained for it from day 1, absolutely my favourite ship) Im totally gutted. It might be possible to cobble together a half working ship, but tbh I think the curse is going in a hangar like an old classic car to gather dust, and I'll probably melt the pilgrim down and throw the arbi out of the airlock into space. Yeah, I'll adapt, (I'll train minmatar I think) but it just feels such a waste of a years training. Bitterly disappointed. C. - sig designer - eve mail
Lightof God Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:27:00 - [267] as a caldari Please for the love of god dont change my nos, i need it so. thank you.
LordVodka Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:32:00 - [268] Whats with the curse this curse that, ya 1 ship is in jeopordy your saying, look at the bigger picture, go on EFT and try looking at the cap life on your bs's when you have no nos's fit. The curse is not the only ship that won't be able to work with this change...
Arkin Longinus	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:32:00 - [269] CCP please dont do this....I just spent literally ages working on two ships that you now decide to nerf into the grave. For god sake dont take this away from me please. Dont change nos atm it's one of the most useful mods ingame for amarr ships especially now that you have turned this into a capacator game with all of the add on's to hp and emphasis on tanking. Kahnd mk 2 is pretty nice but please dont nerf nos.
Nathrezim Gallente Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:35:00 - [270] i dont get it.. why nerf NOSes to oblivion rather than adjusting them? i.e. you wtf-nerfed jammers some time ago, but at least the ECM sips had their bonuses fixed to counter that + rigs + new low slot mods = jamming on jamming-specifc ships got better than it used to be.. Why not simply reduce the NOS ammount of NOSes lets say like 33%? or what the heck..even to 50% and give a slightly better boost to NOS ships (i.e. pilgrim and cruse) so THOSE ships can NOS as good as pre-change but rest ships will kinda suck at NOSing? no... you have to take out the nerfbat and SPLAT.. you guys dont seem to learn from your mistakes eh? you cant see that it is different to DEAL with a problem and different to screw up whatever is causing the problem.. Its not your fault though.. its the fault of all those ''kids'' whining on the forums that ''i cant kill everything in my vaga-pownmobile cause i get nossed waaa waaa''.. So, with this change you make minmatar and caldari semi-invincible cause they DONT require cap to fire their weapons and caldari ships can make crazy passive shield tank setups anyway.. gg you managed to nerf amarr even more and slap gallente a bit with the NOS changes.. Ok for gallente, cause some of their ships are overpowered (nos-domi/myrmi/eos) but why nerf amarr into oblivion even more? and i dont even fly amarr.. I just finished training amarr cruiser to lvl5 to try out curse/pilgrim but looks like i wasted 25 days of training.. Not to mention the fact that with this move, you made capital ships even more difficult to kill which means more blobs to shoot them down which means more lag/desyncs/whatever.. Is anyone actually THINKING of these changes or are you guys over there flipping coins and laughing at the thousands of your subscribers? And a noobish question coming up.. Whats up with these ''khanid'' ships anyway? i thought that the playable races (and main races of the game) were amarr, caldari, minmatar and gallente... wtf is up with you batpizing some ships as Khanid? Like making a distinction between gallente ships that are created by roden shipyards and the other corp, i dont even remember its name Anyway, the NOS changes suck The missile thingy on the other amarr ships sucks aswell.. Cause imagine a damnation trying to get into range for those crappy missiles.. its funny to think of it.. ANYWAY, GG CCP in making another step towards ruining this game.. Only the isk-farmers will be left to 'play' this game within a year or two if you lot go on with stupid and rational changes like this.. But who cares eh? As long as you got enough subscribers to keep your golden goose running... pathetic

William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:36:00 - [271] Edited by: William Hamilton on 31/07/2007 02:37:26 Originally by: LordVodka Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:44:31 what the heck are you talking about, he's just saying amarr got missile ships now, and they may as well be caldari (As in a caldari boost not nerf), nothing in there saying to change race... Well, that's pretty thin logic, just as bad as saying that making Gallente better would boost Amarr because then all the Amarrians could switch to Gallente..... also.... Originally by: Yellow Planet ** YOU FOR *** UP THE ONLY SHIPS THAT I STILL LIKE IN THIS GAME. STUPID ICELAND*FAGGERS *** DIE AND BECOME ULTIMA ONLINE! ** OFF "RONA, the how to (whine) people!" (EDIT: no offence to anyone else in rona, i just thought it fit)
Emsee Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:38:00 - [272] Edited by: Emsee on 31/07/2007 02:38:35 Oh noes, now people will have to start using their brain when fitting nos and using it in fights.
Robert Sky	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:39:00 - [273] I literally just invested a lot of ISK into my alts Curse along with a full T2 set of Talisman implants. Now... its like I just spent over a billion on just +3 implants. What good is vamping my enemy faster if it has no affect. If you want to make the nos change for all ships EXCEPT the ships that are SUPPOSED to use nos as a weapon then that is fine. But I mean who is gonna fly a curse/pilgram/balra now??
Sinnbad Mayhem Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:50:00 - [274] Thanks for boosting Amarr. Not. Glad I trained Minmatar. Orbit outside web range and now never worry about a NOS ship again. Bye Bye Domi. lol You guys rock! p.s. Whats with the love of HAM? You guys really should play on Tranquility more. Nobody fits HAMS in PVP. Check the kill mails. Your relentless insistence on giving every Amarr ship a HAM bonus is like a Britney moment. And thanks again for making the Curse useless. S&M
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:52:00 - [275] ok here is my final word. now that nos is different and meant to be a I need to get more cap module. neuts need to be changed to 1 cap for 2 neut. as you don't get the enegry back, so it is balanced. plus the way it is now neuts will be the nos booster. so it's your choice. but neuts againt larger ships will allow you too... oh nvm I get it now. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Veng3ance Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:58:00 - [276] Edited by: Veng3ance on 31/07/2007 03:00:28 Just wanted to post again how BAD the Damnation change is. Kthx Oh and the NOS change is horrible to. IF the other player isn't worse off wtf is the point!
Sevenius Kaul	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:01:00 - [277] Originally by: Emsee Edited by: Emsee on 31/07/2007 02:38:35 Oh noes, now people will have to start using their brain when fitting nos and using it in fights. Anyone using their brain won't be fitting nos, they'll be fitting neuts. C.
Drash Kammatarr German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:01:00 - [278] Originally by: Raydn James Edited by: Raydn James on 31/07/2007 02:13:47 Edited by: Raydn James on 31/07/2007 02:11:59 Edited by: Raydn James on 31/07/2007 02:01:35 Edited by: Raydn James on 31/07/2007 02:00:00 Originally by: StarCommWraith Ok how about this. Simply remove Nosferatu because now with the change you have made it completely useless. Couldnt agree more. As i read the dev blog, the line that sticks out to me the most is this: "This means that the target is no worse off (energy wise) than the attacking ship." Did someone actually write that thinking it was a good idea? If the target ship is no worse off, whats the point? In the next patch, I'd also like it to be added that no ones weapons do more damage than mine so that I'm no worse off than they are. Also: tracking, # of targets locked, CPU, PG, total Cap, and number of high, medium and low slots should be the same across ship classes. What about races whose weapons take cap to fire and even more so whos AMMO also requires cap? Another quote: "This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved" The compromise is that you are using a high slot that would normally be reserved for a Railgun, Blaster, Launcher, Smartbomb, etc. and by doing so, reducing your own DPS. One of the things that needs to be looked at is this: Say im in combat and I attack someone, I'm using NOS and sucking their CAP dry. Even though Im doing so, I still have to run my mods, I'm loosing cap to my weapons, and I'm getting hit by NOS at the same time. Normally I would hit a cap booster and keep going. With the proposed change (as I understand it) the NOS I had running just completly got wiped out of the equation because now my CAP is at 50% and my targets CAP is at 48%. I've always been one to go after peoples CAP. Not just because I need it for my ship to function, but it's always been the easiest 'tank' to kill because very few pilots are willing to give up a mid slot to fit a cap booster. Shield tankers, Im sure, would start complaining about how they need the mids slots for their tank, and I would agree. Since that is the case, make cap boosters that fit in both mid and low slots. Lots of people have been saying 'Just fit neuts'. To them I say, look at the PG reqirement difference on a Large NOS and its corosponding Large Neut. On lots of ships, PG is so cramped as it is, and some people are already fitting Reactor Control's to just get full weapon fits on their ship. And what about the passive fit ships? There are pilots in my corp who have ships that shurg off Large NOS hitting it cuz they require nearly NO CAP to sustain their tank and fire weapons. Is that fair? Of course not, but I make the choice to fit NOS instead of weapons hoping that my enemy isn't a passive tanker. Amarr and Gallente take the biggest hits with this NOS nerf. If something must be done (and im on the fence about that) this definately shouldnt be it. I also had to agree with the post that we are constantally getting hit with nerf's to module after module instead of adding things to bolster our ships (or in this case CAP) against attack. A module to protect a ships cap against a NOS attack would be way more interesting than the proposed change. The Game is supposed to be about give and take, risk and reward. You fit your ship a certain way knowing good and well that you could run into a pilot out there who fit his ship specifically to counter yours. What happened to giving us the options and letting the pilot decide the best way to fit his ship? (4 edits in 13 minutes, I'm going to bed) /signed
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:03:00 - [279] Originally by: Drash Kammatarr Hi, I'm sick of nerfing things that need no nerf. Nos needs no nerf. period. I bet that at least 90% of the people who shout for "nerf this, nerf that" belong to the following groups: a. New players b. Players who lack skills to do better c. deriving from b, Players who will only play for a short amount of time, because they simply can't get it into their itsy bitsy tiny little brains that players who trained for months (curse/pilgrim) are actually able to destroy their mighty ibis/reaper/whatever 'of doom'. But CCP always listens to their baby-cries, and with every patch we get something dumbed down, and the gaming experience and a lot of time invested for skilltraining goes down the drain. And in the end, these nerf-crying Players leave the game for good because they notice that they need another skill for mining mercoxite when they finally arrive in 0.0 space. I have to ask my self: why do I put so much effort and time into a Game which gets destroyed piece by piece? Well...maybe I won't do so much longer ;) Your sig! ROFLMAO!!! Wins!! - sig designer - eve mail
blahhhblahh	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:04:00 - [280] Edited by: blahhhblahh on 31/07/2007 03:07:56 Originally by: Sorted /me boos and hisses at the NOS changes. Mainly due to the major detremental effect it will have on the NOS speciality ships (Curse, Pilgrim, Bhaalg etc) I can see some reasoning behind it (Big ships wiping a frigs cap - which they still can with 1 Neut), but its been in the game for years - forum whining seems to be at a peak and focused on NOS recently. BAM NERF BAT>.. whats next ? Dampners? I bet 50M. The great many late changes remind me very painfully off SOE and SWG. poor show. If you insist on the changes the NOS dedicated ships need an extra boost - same as the ECM dedicated ships got during that Nerf. ......... Sorted I agree the longer i play this game the more it reminds me of how Sony screwed up buy listening to too many whiners and pulled out the nerf bat 1 too many times. Frankly im sick of all the nerf this nerf that fools around here. If you dont like the bloody game the way it is DONT PLAY IT !! There are many many people who like things the way they are. If a BS hits a cruiser/or smaller with a nos EXPECT to get nos'd to death.. I bet you people screaming for nerfs all the time would like it so that a frig can take a titan solo.. That is unless it was your titan that got owned. Then you would be in here screamin for a nerf.. Grow the hell up people. Don't like the game go somewhere else. Let us people who enjoy the game the way it is be. NOS DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED AT ALL.. IF you do change it you will Loose lots of your paying customers. I do not know how else i could say this.

Max Tesla	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:15:00 - [281] I donÆt get it As far as I know Khanid is a small faction not the big 4 so does this mean they are getting ships? And will other small factions also get ships like the Sisters of Eve or Interbus or what ever?
Sarovin	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:15:00 - [282] This sucks, seriously, im an amarr pilot, trained energy turrets for pretty much all of my playing time. Missiles were not important. Now all of the sudden they turn everything around and make me shoot missiles. Are you kidding me. This has to be stopped. IM ****ed!
wolfgarrr Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:17:00 - [283] I have a suggestion CCP.. Why don't you listen to all these crys for the nerf bat and be done with it already. Make all ships have the same attributes right down the board. Weapons shield Armour high/med/low slots etc.. The only thing that will be different is the name of the ship and what the ship looks like.. ^^^ Doing this makes as much sense as what you have already planned. Wake up please. Btw.. While your at it why not just sit everyone into a ibs .. Would also make as much sense.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:23:00 - [284] Originally by: wolfgarrr I have a suggestion CCP.. Why don't you listen to all these crys for the nerf bat and be done with it already. Make all ships have the same attributes right down the board. Weapons shield Armour high/med/low slots etc.. The only thing that will be different is the name of the ship and what the ship looks like.. ^^^ Doing this makes as much sense as what you have already planned. Wake up please. Btw.. While your at it why not just sit everyone into a ibs .. Would also make as much sense. hows...does..a nos change.. justify this comment? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Raevenor GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:26:00 - [285] Man i gotta love this change, not only does CCP cave in to the stupid idiots who get ganked in low sec and simply don't 'get' PvP, the sole people against the change are those who have no idea how bad Nos will now be or are simply clueless and just don't know what the **. You cannot comprehend how bad Amarr is going to be, not only do the higher-end T2 Amarr ships will be using missiles instead of Lasers like they should be (lol +EM missile bonus) you nerf one of the only truly good ships Amarr have the Curse, making it a gigantic ** heap. Furthermore,
flashbang2277 The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:27:00 - [286] This is crap. Seriously, I spent over a year training for these ships with energy turrets, NOS, drones whatnot. I fly these khanid ships with energy turrets, not missiles, where all of the sudden did they decide to change the ships that people had spent years training for. This is very unfair if you ask me. Some of my favorite ships are khanid but I don't fly them with missiles. Ask any amarr pilot about this NOS change and ship change and the reply will not be positive. Im not much of a forum poster but when I was on vent chatting with friends someone brought this up I ran here to voice my opinion. If this change is implimented into the game many people will not be happy. I know i'm not the only one who feels this way so all you amarrian pilots who know this is crap please speak out so these changes can be stopped. Don't do this ccp, please I dont know who came up with these idiotic ideas but DON'T DO THIS!! I'm too busy killing people to have a good sig. . .
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:29:00 - [287] On the subject of the curse its a good job i use 2 TS neuts in my high slots ;) --------- Liberty Rogues Website
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:42:00 - [288] Originally by: flashbang2277 This is crap. Seriously, I spent over a year training for these ships with energy turrets, NOS, drones whatnot. I fly these khanid ships with energy turrets, not missiles, where all of the sudden did they decide to change the ships that people had spent years training for. This is very unfair if you ask me. Some of my favorite ships are khanid but I don't fly them with missiles. Ask any amarr pilot about this NOS change and ship change and the reply will not be positive. Im not much of a forum poster but when I was on vent chatting with friends someone brought this up I ran here to voice my opinion. If this change is implimented into the game many people will not be happy. I know i'm not the only one who feels this way so all you amarrian pilots who know this is crap please speak out so these changes can be stopped. Don't do this ccp, please I dont know who came up with these idiotic ideas but DON'T DO THIS!! It's kinda like when I spent the better part of a year training up for a Blasterthron, only to have it's DPS nerfed repeatedly and all the tanks in the game increased three and four times over. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
xaja	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:49:00 - [289] Need for Speed is going backwards at an alarming rate! the game lag and desync's are horrible and when you loose a ship due to desync, its apparently not even visible in the logs! And here you guys are twiddling with deckchairs, devising new complicated and network intensive calculations to nerf modules... just apply a stacking nerf to NOS and call it a day! I was stuck "in warp" for a full 20 minutes the other day with my gang at an enemy POS, because your servers can't handle running the game anymore... only advice I could get was "wait it out" Then I got primary, and no control over my ship's functions whatsoever, still being "in warp" and this crap happens every day. We're at the point where you can't even escape massive lag out in 0.0 anymore. And this game used to run better with the same number of concurrent players! Its your over-complex changes that keep bogging it down more and more! Originally by: Sinnbad Mayhem Thanks for boosting Amarr. Not. Glad I trained Minmatar. Orbit outside web range and now never worry about a NOS ship again. Bye Bye Domi. lol You guys rock! p.s. Whats with the love of HAM? You guys really should play on Tranquility more. Nobody fits HAMS in PVP. Check the kill mails. Your relentless insistence on giving every Amarr ship a HAM bonus is like a Britney moment. And thanks again for making the Curse useless. Whoever came up with HAM: take note that nobody wants them, and that no matter how you try to ram them down our throats, we still don't want them. Feel free to take them out of the game, nobody will notice, and we could really use the 0.000001% lag reduction from HAM items not clogging up loot tables and market slots anymore. ... _____________________________________ I'm Paper; Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
Zhulik wild frenzy	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:55:00 - [290] Edited by: Zhulik on 31/07/2007 03:59:50 Originally by: wolfgarrr I have a suggestion CCP.. The funny thing about posts like this one here is that their authors never seem to realize that not nerfing overpowered crap hurts diversity in much the same way, because when there are modules that good (not talking about nos per se, something ambiguous and not necessarily real, like the legendary Connection Scrambler II) there is no point in fitting anything else end everyone ends up flying the same setup tweaked slightly to fit on a ship of choice, which is basically the same thing you are jokingly proposing CCP to do. As a counter-proposal I advise CCP to introduce a highslot module "I-Win Button I" so that PvP would be narrowed down to whoever locks first and has better ping so that the Button activates without delay. Isn't that what you people want? Pure win without giving the opponent a chance to retaliate? Surely THAT makes more sense. How's them apples? P.S: do like Khanid Mk II, could care less about the nos. Could mention that I'd rather see a viable highslot alternative to nos(not a counter to nos, something new) than a nosnerf, because quite honestly there just isn't anything useful pvp-wise to stick in there. Smartbombs? Pft.

Sentinel Eeex Caldari Lords Of Amber	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:12:00 - [291] Ok, stupid question. If 100 battleships NOS a mothership - what happens?
Serric Caldari The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:26:00 - [292] Edited by: Serric on 31/07/2007 04:30:56 Great work CCP, and thank you for listening to the player base. The NOS change was desperately needed to bring some variety to ship setups. The Khanid ships are sexay too. Well done devs. edit: one nitpick if I may.. Malediction needs it's lock range back, after all it's the Amarr tackler.
Covenn Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:40:00 - [293] Here is a question that is being ignored: HOW WILL THE NOS CHANGES EFFECT PVE. From what I understand NPC's dont have the same Cap structure as players.
Truthbringer	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:45:00 - [294] While the NOS changes will likely fix the Domi/Myrm problems, you've just destroyed the Amarr recon and Blood Raider ships. The Khanid ideas are novel, but it seems like more of an excuse to not fix the real Amarr problems: laser damage and ship bonuses.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:48:00 - [295] Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 31/07/2007 04:50:14 Why, after all this time, did sarmual have to come up with this? I like the nos changes and im scared of khanid ships now but really, ccp should have been able to come up with this themselves... not like they've had a few years is it? Edit: can we get some kind of.. anti.. missle.. anything? tracking disruptors work wonders but wtf can you do to a missle ship (defenders = worthless)
Seisha Paradisium New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:05:00 - [296] Wow, incredible. I find the degree to which NOS has been nerfed a little extreme. I mean come on. Might as well remove the module altogether. I'm not a very skilled pilot as of yet, but I've loved the way the game has been since I started playing last year, and never felt the need to voice my opinion on the forums over any of the changes. I just went ahead and tried to adapt as best I could. This, however makes me a little angry. I'm trying not to sound like the millions of other poster whining about how they've lost the ability to fly the Curse but I mean it's a little justified don't ya think? I've just finished training up for Amarr recons and now I was better off training up missile skills when I'm Amarr/Gallente specced? What in the hell? Oh well I guess the Khanid changes are quite cool. I mean adding variety to once unused ships is pretty sweet, but rendering the 2 really awesome Amarr ships pretty much useless makes me want to punch infants all over the place. I agree NOS needed a nerf but seriously, this is extreme. Oh well I'll continue playing and I'll adapt and I'll do my best as always because I do love this game. However I hope there's never anything in the future that makes me want to post another reply like this. I DETECT SPACE WHALES
Acacia Everto State War Academy	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:06:00 - [297] Energy Vampires are supposed to be offensive. The idea that you should be worse off than your target to NOS is ****** in my opinion. There have been so many good ideas here and you disregard every single one so you can put in a half-ass change which requires little work on your part. What about the idea of smartbombs damaging someone using NOS, since you're draining the energy? This would make smartbombs useful and limit NOS in an acceptable way. Or a function of the signature radius and the target's capacitor, so you can still suck energy, just not as fast the lower their cap goes, giving them a chance and more use for Neuts. I'll say it. The NOS change sucks.** Rethink it. Bounce other ideas off us and I guarantee there's a better solution that satisfies most. I know you have devs in the game, but they obviously don't experience everything there is out there. When the majority of the people are saying that they wouldn't mind a NOS nerf as long as it was sensible, you know there's something wrong with your train of through. It angers me more than a little that NOS will be so carelessly made useless. At least EWAR had ships it works on, but NOS should be something that everyone can benefit from.
Nihilion Saro Gallente Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:18:00 - [298] Turrets and missiles totally need to be nerfed. I propose that missiles and turrets should only do damage if the enemy has more hit points than you do.
VinnyTheBull	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:25:00 - [299] I really like the nos change. I don't know much about Khanid ships so I can't speak on that with any credibility, other then the fact that it REALLY must suck to have millions of SPS in gunnery wasted because your being forced to use HAM's.
Bitchin Miner	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:27:00 - [300] Edited by: ***in Miner on 31/07/2007 05:29:54 Bah the Nos solution is terrible. Why should it be relative. A BS should be able to squash a smaller ship's cap no problem. A better solution to this would be you can only NOS till your Cap is full. If full the Energy has nowhere to go, therefor the NOS shuts down. Is this to blindingly obvious to get?

Ben Booley Mutually Assured Distraction Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:36:00 - [301] I love the nos and Khanid Mk II changes. Amarr have long needed some flavor and an actual second weapon system like all the other races, and armor tanked missile boats does that. I do think that the apoc should be re-configured as a missile boat, and possibly also proph / maller, so that there are some T1 ships leading into the T2 khanid ships, and its not a completely different thing than what' s been trained for. The nos change is great, nos is still good if used correctly, but needs some thought, and it boosts laserboats because they self-nos, making their cap too low to be nossed, while they can still nos poeple.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:37:00 - [302] Well i have hought about this changes, tryed them and can say now. 1. Malediction changes: i don't understand it's armor bonus, it's useless at all, give him missle velocity or explosion velocity. Ceptors don't pay attention to amount of it armor. 2. Vengeance: I do love it. But it's to slow.. i guess it's better to reduce it's weight more, and give +20 velocity. 3. Anathema: missiles... what for? Give him velocity or something like this. 4. Sacrilige: Good, good, 5. Damnation, give him +210 grid not -210, or it well be a headache to fit it. NOS change. I don't really understant it. If such a change well be deployed it well be useless module< that don't cost it's grid and cpu. I think it isn't imbalanced, becourse everybody can use it. Such a change will bost minmatar and caldary ships, and hits painfull to amar and galente. NOS is a weapon, but with such an effect it gives a chance to an enemy. Who need such a weapon? Why should i care about condition of his/her capasitor? Nobody says, that stasis web should affect only whe enemy faster than you are. But why should nos do? As to the neutralisers they can be use by ships that didn't pay attention to their capacitor: caldary and minmatar. Neither amar no galente can alow themselfs to sacrafice it capacitor only to deal damage to an enemy one. And in fight againts minmatar it's useless. The next: this change of Nos will make curse/pilgrim useless. It is not good in electronics as other recons, but it's power is the nos! It can't use neutralizer properly becourse of small capasitor size. Please don't change nos in such a way. They'll be only a string in market if you do. p.s. give the retribution 1 medium slot in expence of hi one, it well be more like amar ship.
Seisha Paradisium New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:37:00 - [303] Originally by: Nihilion Saro Turrets and missiles totally need to be nerfed. I propose that missiles and turrets should only do damage if the enemy has more hit points than you do. ROFL. This post is much win :) I DETECT SPACE WHALES
Phyridean Lionsgate Ionic Dispersion	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:41:00 - [304] It's fortunate that Amarr get a better Sacrilege. However, I'm not sure about the HAM-only bonus, but I'll get to that... The Damnation deserves its powergrid back, and really should have the option of turrets or missiles. Maybe give it 5 turret and 5 missile hardpoints, and then give it a bonus to HAMs and a bonus to only pulse lasers? That way, it remains a short-range combat ship, but has the versatility that is the real hallmark of a Khanid ship. Maybe do the same for the Sac (HAM/pulse bonii)? That might almost make up for the demise of the Curse, and make people think twice when choosing between Sac/Zealot and Abs/Damn, rather than going straight for the vanilla Amarr setup. Want armor tanking bonii? Then you'll have to go with the Khanid. Extra DPS? The Viziam ones. I'm currently working on the skill tree for an Amarr HAC/Command Ship, but don't yet fly either, so perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about, but hopefully I've presented something to consider. Frankly, the Nos change doesn't make a whole lot of sense to the storyline, the ingame physics, or cries for nerfing. As others have pointed out, War generally causes escalation, not reduction. Physics-wise, you may have been going for a water-in-buckets and siphoning analogy, but in that case, the battleship sucking on the frigate should do basically nothing, whereas a frigate should be able to draw an insane amount from a battleship (or cap ship). Also, you've alienated a bunch of PvPers who rely on the Nos to break tanks. It can't do that unless it sucks cap to zero. Perhaps using sig radius is the way to go to balance this, but I don't think the equalizing-to-a-percentage way is the way to go. In any case, if you're trying to boost Amarr, adding one good ship and taking one good ship away is more of a zero-sum thing to be reserved for those races that are already well-balanced.
Franconis Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:58:00 - [305] WOW... if whining on the forums causes this much of a change in the game, I ought to spend less time actually playing eve and more time ****ing all over the forums. On a less sarcastic note, these changes will totally change pvp. I'm not sure how it will all work out as it's a very complex change, but those that adapt the fastest will win for a while after the patch hits tq. I'd write about what I think these changes will do to pvp, but I'd rather not speed everyone else's learning curve . _________ Gallente FTW
Ledo4ka	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:46:00 - [306] bad ideas. however: i thing CCP should to implement an NOS/NET bonuses to the ships and boost CAP Boosters (cpu/grid). may be boost drones to ALL races.
Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:48:00 - [307] So can we have our capital NOS and neuts now please...
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:06:00 - [308] launcher hardpoints on a domi could be fun? :) id gladly shelve nos on a domi if i could fit a decent ammount of guns and at least 1 lar... is that to much to ask? more pg on the domi please.
Raenni II	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:09:00 - [309] I'am AMARR. And i don't want be Caldari! What CCP think?!?!? Its a crazy ideas. I'dont want teach missile skills, it is NOT AMARR WAEPON!
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:14:00 - [310] CCP will probably never read this, but by far the easiest, least disruptive change to Nos would be basing it on signature radius. This way, Frigates aren't hellnuked by a single heavy Nos, and Interceptors would be even less affected. A Cruiser could also escape if careful. Obviously turning on a MWD would hurt your cap, but you could theoretically get away from a ship fitting a lot of heavy nos if you were careful about it and timed your MWD. Increasing the duration from 12 seconds to 16/18 seconds (while changing the amount drained to be proportionate) would also help, as frigates and cruisers would have more time to react - and one of CCPs apparent goals is to give people more time to react: DPS nerfs, speed nerfs, etc. This would also not completely destroy the effectiveness of the Curse and Pilgrim, and make them more vulnerable to frigates and cruisers, meaning they would no longer be solo killing machines. I don't fly Amarr but the Khanid changes, if done correctly, might breathe new life into the Amarr T2 line. But please CCP, the current Nos changes are completely bogus. They shouldn't be called 'energy vampires' after this, and rather 'Energy Equalizers.' Changing Nos to signature-radius-based would also add the possibility for capital nos/neuts, as they wouldn't completely drain a frigate, cruiser or battleship in one go. Please consider switching Nos to be based on signature radius, not this "equalizer" crap that has no place in any conventional PvP situation.

Morkus Rex Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:19:00 - [311] Whoa, I can't wait to try my new Sac Don't know what to think of the Nos nerf... but the Khanid ships look great
Roidpwning101	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:20:00 - [312] Originally by: Raenni II I'am AMARR. And i don't want be Caldari! What CCP think?!?!? Its a crazy ideas. I'dont want teach missile skills, it is NOT AMARR WAEPON! There's a lot of stupid going around. I think you may have caught it. Please seek medical attention.
Raenni II	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:22:00 - [313] DON'T KILL CURSE! This Dev BLOG. Its a big mistake. Many amarrs delete subscription.
Raenni II	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:27:00 - [314] It is a "amarr boost"?!?!?!?!? Its a big mistake.
Bernard Ireland Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:28:00 - [315] Have been playing this great game for some years now and have never felt the need to make any comments until now... Some (Hopefully!) constructive criticism coming up... Changes to Khanid: I, like many others respect the felt need for new options when it come to choosing ships and setups and also the evidently with spread opinion that Amarr are underpowered BUT why not "just" put new ships or versions of older vessels into the game? Even an mk2 of an existing ship with different setup with a different focus seem better to me then letting millions of ep go to waste for Amarr gun lovers. If this kind of thing happened to Caldari, turning my beloved Raven into a gunboat I can only start to imagine the kind of language that would be used! Adapt yes, of course, but still... Also, just think of all the fun balancing another ship will result in (!) NOS changes (Well, this kind of changes in general): My personal opinion is that it¦s better to either slightly change the effect of equipment (But normally avoid changing the cpu and grid needed) OR even better produce some sort of countermeasures then to drastically change how things work both as this to me seem highly unrealistic (Don¦t think that a game must be realistic but it¦s always nice if it appears to be... Don¦t like the idea of Khanid using their magic wands to make drastic changes to existing ship classes and ships!) AND more importantly ruins players ability to plan ahead as equipment that at one point seem useful doesn¦t only get less useful, it gets totally changed! I have the deepest respect for your work and I¦m confident that the important work to improve the game will continue and bring changes that are needed, good or less good, popular among everyone or not BUT my opinion is that it¦s better to make several small changes then a few drastic ones, that all changes should have a seemingly logic reason and that it¦s important not to limit the players ability to plan and evolve with some degree of trust in the relative stability of the game world and its mechanisms... Keep up the good work! Well, that¦s just my opinion...
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:38:00 - [316] Once upon a time, everyone run around in Gankageddons. They got nerfed. Now, everyone runs around in Domis or Curses and pretends to be a super skilled PvP, when infact they barely manage to find the orbit command. Awesome Changes. And yes, i have Recon 5 and a Pilgrim BPO. Nerf Nos more, please. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Eben Rochelle Gallente The Plebians	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:39:00 - [317] Edited by: Eben Rochelle on 31/07/2007 07:41:55 Edited by: Eben Rochelle on 31/07/2007 07:41:45 Absolutely bloody marvelous, gj CCP just what the doctor ordered. I find all the Caldari, nerf Amarr buff Caldari threads hilarious. As for the NOS changes out of all the suggestions i have seen on these forums this tops them all, well thought out and skillfull bit of balancing there! And in response to the "i spent xx amount of time training gunnery and now i have to train something else" threads. seriously people you should stop and think, caldari: missiles+rails, gallente: blasters+drones, Minnie: missiles+projectiles+drones+shiled tanking+armor tanking+kitchen sink ------------------------------------------------
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:43:00 - [318] Edited by: Mr Breakfast on 31/07/2007 07:43:18 Originally by: Bernard Ireland Have been playing this great game for some years now and have never felt the need to make any comments until now... Some (Hopefully!) constructive criticism coming up... Changes to Khanid: I, like many others respect the felt need for new options when it come to choosing ships and setups and also the evidently with spread opinion that Amarr are underpowered BUT why not "just" put new ships or versions of older vessels into the game? Even an mk2 of an existing ship with different setup with a different focus seem better to me then letting millions of ep go to waste for Amarr gun lovers. If this kind of thing happened to Caldari, turning my beloved Raven into a gunboat I can only start to imagine the kind of language that would be used! Adapt yes, of course, but still... Also, just think of all the fun balancing another ship will result in (!) NOS changes (Well, this kind of changes in general): My personal opinion is that it¦s better to either slightly change the effect of equipment (But normally avoid changing the cpu and grid needed) OR even better produce some sort of countermeasures then to drastically change how things work both as this to me seem highly unrealistic (Don¦t think that a game must be realistic but it¦s always nice if it appears to be... Don¦t like the idea of Khanid using their magic wands to make drastic changes to existing ship classes and ships!) AND more importantly ruins players ability to plan ahead as equipment that at one point seem useful doesn¦t only get less useful, it gets totally changed! I have the deepest respect for your work and I¦m confident that the important work to improve the game will continue and bring changes that are needed, good or less good, popular among everyone or not BUT my opinion is that it¦s better to make several small changes then a few drastic ones, that all changes should have a seemingly logic reason and that it¦s important not to limit the players ability to plan and evolve with some degree of trust in the relative stability of the game world and its mechanisms... Keep up the good work! In response to your comments about the Khanid changes: The Khanid ships that are becoming missile boats were previously underpowered and lacked a clear role. The Malediction was really only useful as a tackler, but it couldn't do much damage on its own because it received a bonus to EM missile damage but lacked the missile slots to take full advantage of that bonus. The Vengeance had pitiful damage. Its armor tank was strong compared to other AFs, but vulnerable to NOS (about to be fixed) and slow to boot. Now the Vengeance is getting a speed boost, even better armor, and a DPS bonus if you use missiles. The Sacrilege was one of the cheaper HACs because it did its job decently, but failed in comparison with HACs from other races. The switch to missiles should give it a role. Finally the Damnation, originally one of the worst fleet commands--as the HAMnation its DPS still won't be great, but it'll be comparable to lasers with the new missile damage bonus per level. More importantly, the Damnation now has a +5% cap recharge rate per level bonus, which combined with the NOS nerf and its 4th mid slot (for cap boosters) makes it the best Fleet CS tanker and a viable ship for gangs where it risks being called primary. As for the NOS nerf, I agree with earlier posters that combinations of NOS and neutralizers in the high-slots will preserve the usefulness of NOS. I know that the Curse/Pilgrim are losing their solo strength along with the NOS nerf, but I don't think those ships were intended to be solo pwnmobiles anyway--they're reconnaissance vessels, not ships of the line. In small groups where neut boats can be used more safely, the Curse/Pilgrim are still deadly.
Mark Hamill Galactic Waste Management	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:46:00 - [319] My 2 cents. Nice. In one fell swoop, CCP, you managed to ignore every real problem with Amarr, nerf them, AND find a way to make more REAL money at the same time. My Malediction - Hey look everyone, it's the Inquisitor on an Executioner hull. (which coincidentally means that very few Amarr pilots now have the skills to fly one as the Inquis is the only 'rocket' frig and a rather bad one at that. If you wanted us to spend even more real cash on a pointless time-sink, congrats, you found it.) My Vengeance - (see above) My Anathema - (Oh, Slap!) My Curse - They were already useless against missile and heavy drone using ships anyway as TD's have no effect on them. Now, the one thing they are good at, taking on gunships, gets nerfed. My Pilgrim - (see above magnified due to less slots) I think if these changes go through and I decloak on someone in my Pilgrim, you should add the words LOL to the subject line when you send me my insurance payment. My Sacrilige - This... angers me the most. The ONLY Amarr ship that actually has the cap recharge to run beams, rep and AB gets whacked. First, it will require weeks of training skills to make it even useful again, skills that I'll only need to fly it and the Damnation. Then, as if adding insult to injury, you give me MORE cap. Well, that's good news for Gallante. Since, I won't need the cap for those heavy assaults, I'll be the PERFECT NOS target for that MWD Deimos, which coincidentally my missiles will bounce off of. Not to worry though, I won't be in my Sac and heavy assaults anytime soon as I'll be too busy investing in the OTHER time-sink you've found for Amarr, UBER ROCKETS! My Guardian - Ok, I see a funny here. My gang shouts, 'DON'T ETA ME, HE'S GOT NOS!' The Damnation I was training for - The exact place I want to put a LOGISTICS ship, point blank off my enemy's nose. Seriously, if these are your solutions to giving Amarr something other than EM/Thermal damage types, I'm not impressed. Regarding the NOS changes. Agreed, something needs to be done. However, these changes appear assinine. Now, instead of cap being something desirable, I forsee trying burn up cap before a fight in order to NOS your target. Great for MWD's (which no Amarr ships gets a bonus to I might add) and to those dual rep Hyperions who get those nice rep bonuses. Cap boosters? No way, that just gives you something they can NOS. You nerfed the hell out of ECM and gave that to the Caldari. Now you're going to nerf NOS and take that away from the Amarr? I'd rather see sig radius penalties, specific NOS hardpoints, stacking penalties on non-nos ships, anything but this insane mathematical fubar you've engineered. I do see one benefit though. When I light off those 8 Tachyons on my Abaddon with multi-freq's and my cap plummets to 0, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I can't be nossed any further.
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:47:00 - [320] It should also be noted that all of the new Amarr missile boats are BC sized at the most. This means that Amarr pilots won't have to train for torps, and it really doesn't take that long to train up to T2 HAMs. If the Apoc were switched to a missile boat then the training time for T2 torps would be too much, but because these Khanid Mk II vessels are smaller ships, I don't think missile training time is a serious factor.

n0thing omen.	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:48:00 - [321] I really dont wanna read whole thread, since I have read all of em over past night. So well my points: - Curse and Pilgrim arent supposed to solo BSes better then HACs. Thus, if you need to drop dampers to fit injector its fine. Your not supposed to use em. If you need to put PG rig, also fine, you loose pretty much small amount of speed and you still can outrun turret tracking. - Nosf change was really needed, now big ships using neuts have more risk because now killing 500 cap of their own they also risk that target ship will sue it to their advantage. - Nano pilots need to be more carefull as they can get caught with their pants down and if before you could see the trouble of nosfs, now 50% of your cap down in one go, that may lead to MWD turning off and well...you might get shot. - Nosf-domies and other all-nosf setups now need to be more carefull with managing its own capacitor. - The target ships capacitor indicator already exists. Its called ship scanner. But well, if you have enough expirience you will be able to predict enemy setup maybe few seconds after combat starts. Thus not hard to know how his cap is doing. - Khanid MK II changes are great and even more. Amarr got great fix since now their cap using weapons can fire, and thier Khanid boats got usage. - Amarr pilots who whine about missles. Tbh, each race have split training: Gallente Turrets/Drones, Caldari Turrets/Missiles, Minmatar Turrets/Missiles. Amarr had like 90% of turret based ships, well, that now been brought in line with other 3 races. Now you focus on main race skill tree like Gunnery but also need to cros-s-train drones/missles just like other races. Nothing new here. For the record: I am a Gallente only pilot, who does have nosf-domi in his hangar, and I fully support the change. Devs scored 9/10 on Khanid & Nosfs combined tbh. ---
R3DSKULL Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:50:00 - [322] Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. Umm this guy is the one you should have advising you on how to develop this game. He seems to have a clue as how to get foward progress. Im a little miffed that half my ships no longer have the option of lasers. Im kinda miffed that as an amarr trained for two years, i have to train missle skills now. Something i never wanted to do. I think options. SO whats the backstory one day khanid came in and transformed all our ships? they were always really caldari. Nos nerf is a poor choice it needs to be redone. Nos should be changed but in an evolutionary way. And i like how CCP pulls out the nano sac. 5 lows, 5 missle turrets. Hhaha the next nano ship. I think you should nerf nano ships and make it like the old days where fast ships were intercepters. And vagabonds were mean armor tankers. MWD were created to get close range ships in close range. But i guess thats evolution or is it? Really it would be nice to see some verbal interaction in this post to not just all of us talking to you with no response. Answer for yourselves. Explain why your doing what you do. Dont we all atleast deserve a level of interactive feedback. Very disappointed with you people of late.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:54:00 - [323] Thank you CCP for making Amarr "oomphffs" - sound that comes when you punch us to our ribs for insult injury. About Damnation: Removing lasers and saying amarr ship is overpowered? FFS! I'm not going to train single missile skills to operate AMARR ship! There is NO other race that has SPLIT personality for ships but still AMARR has to suffer from that. Why is that CCP hates AMARR? How about we split up Gallente .. oh wait, all their T2 ships requires BOTH of their dominant offensive skills: Gunnery AND drones. Amarr is now forced to learn gunnery, drones AND missiles?! YAY! FFS, eighter REALLY boost amarr or delete whole race and give us dedicated amarr people to redistribute our skillpoints, thanks! Luckily I have 2nd alt that is Gallente specialised. Perhaps I will start using EOS then .. sigh CCP giving "oomph" to Amarr's: Nerffing most of ships via Khanid Mk2. Enjoy your "oomphffs" people! :rolleyes:
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:57:00 - [324] So now that there will be fast as hell amarr missle ships.... can us caldari get our mass and agility un nerfed? How are we supposed to utilize our long range against anyhting if we are the slowest ships in the game?
Igus Green Gecko Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:58:00 - [325] Eh, a better change would to make the nos work on a potential based system. So that the size of the nos compared to the size of the target ship's cap, would control how much % of cap could be drained per cycle. So a BS draining a frig would drain very little of the frigs total cap, because the frig has very little cap potential, but the other way around, a BS nos'ing another BS would drain significantly more cap because the cap potential of the larger ship is very high. Would have to put a limit on the other way around so a small nos would not be overpowered, easy way would be to put a limit on max cap nos per cycle. -- Uhg, I think I need a flux capacitor
Dimagus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:59:00 - [326] The reported changes from the devblog can be good but I think there needs to be one minor tweak to keep NOS balanced and usuable: Always have the NOS neutralize cap regardless of %, but only leech energy if your capacitor % is less. This makes more sense from a logistical standpoint, your capactior vampiries until it reaches equilibrium with your target. Once equilibrium is reached however, it can't sustain the drain and the energy is dissipated like a neutralizer before reaching your capacitor.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:59:00 - [327] Originally by: Mr Breakfast .. If the Apoc were switched to a missile boat then the training time for T2 torps would be too much, but because these Khanid Mk II vessels are smaller ships, I don't think missile training time is a serious factor. Oh you have no idea. Check out T2 BS's .. I fear Apoc is rather "black" CCP giving "oomph" to Amarr's: Nerffing most of ships via Khanid Mk2. Enjoy your "oomphffs" people! :rolleyes:
iiOs Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:02:00 - [328] good change ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
n0thing omen.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:02:00 - [329] Originally by: Kuolematon There is NO other race that has SPLIT personality for ships but still AMARR has to suffer from that. O rly? Eris Ares Typhoon All caldari turret ships Lanchesis Tristan Breacher And many more. Tbh, each race has to cross-train for some ships. Get used to it, thats how things been for others. ---
MinRray Minmatar FireTech Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:04:00 - [330] Almost finished training on my alt for ammar recons . After reading all this ... id just say dont nerf them that bad .

Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:07:00 - [331] Urgh... First of all then I don't know about NOS: I've heard alot about it and it was used quite alot and as Amarr I feared of running into the module. The change now needs alot of strategy combining NOS with Neuts, which prolly makes it a headache in large scale pvp. I don't get it. Most people vouch for a stacking nerf when using NOS. A friend of mine suggested to make NOS slots on ships, to prevent the overall abusing of the module. The Khanid part is highly overrated and I don't like it at all. There's a reason I have my skillpoints in gunnery. Kinda silly to work on Missiles now just to get the decent t2 ships. Khanid ships now have to restock alot on ammo for damage (I don't care what people say. Lasers using no ammo was about the only good thing about it). I was planning on getting the Damnation, but now it does not look interesting anymore due to the silly HAM bonus. First of you'll most likely have to fit t2 HAM launchers, which will be very very tight when using armor reparing modules as you now lowered the pg on it. Second is the range...HAMs don't go very far so you'll have to get Javelins which are t2. Overall close range combat is bad due to scramblers, webbers and NOS. That's why the bonusses on Malediction and Heretic are totally odd. I'm gonna stick to my Carthum ships and my Abaddon. --- Member of the Danish Evefan.DK corp
DarkFollower Amarr Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:08:00 - [332] The guys who say that curses/pilgrims are nerfed should think a bit more before saying that actually even nos domis will be ok , just a bit of twiking in their setups this "nerf" makes modules like the neutralizer and cap flux coil worth to fit, a good thing imo about the curse/pilgrim .. think about it, they are cruisers => low cap , with a mwd even lower cap , activate mwd /rep and the target has alot more % cap than u => nos works , think if u put a neut it gets bonuses aswell => kills more cap , all these thigs combined makes the target lose cap even faster than before => u kill u're target faster ,only downnside is that it won't be as effective agains frigs as before , still good , but not like godlike like it used to be @ the khanid ships , waaaaaaaay better than before , even if it **s me up to train rockets and HAm's it's faaar better than not worth flying as they were before Cap recharges on PvP ships Suxxor monkey ballzorz!!**
Igus Green Gecko Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:08:00 - [333] Edited by: Igus on 31/07/2007 08:11:52 Originally by: MinRray Almost finished training on my alt for ammar recons . After reading all this ... id just say dont nerf them that bad . They are still great ships, it just makes fitting them a bit more interesting. the new point will be to lower your cap as low as possible while still taking them out. -- Uhg, I think I need a flux capacitor
Plave Okice Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:09:00 - [334] Well it was the best proposal for NOS I'd seen (I couldn't think of anything better) and I'm glad it seems to be implemented. Something needed doing, surely we all agree on that, and without removing the power of NOS completely this still allows it to be effective in more than a few scenarios without it being all powerful all of the time. I was one of those who fitted NOS when I had a spare high slot or two, so yes I admit it won't affect me hugely from an offensive point of view.
VanNostrum Cataphract Securities	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:10:00 - [335] While i welcome the Khanid MK II changes, (non-khanid) amaar ships are still worst for pvp choice even after the nos changes. An amarr ship can't fire, forget tanking, when cap is gone, while drone and missile ships, along with projectiles still can fire. So in theory a passive tanked minmatar ship equipped with neutralizers and projectiles can kill all other races. So we still have to use projectiles on amarr ships now. Amarr ships still need an oomph
Shin Mao Caldari AFC Ultima Rati0	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:11:00 - [336] Thank you CCP you give good PVP missile boats for caldary players P.S. I gues you forgot transform Abadon to Khanid Abadon, this will be realy nice X-ray nuclear pumped laser:
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:11:00 - [337] They should make warpscramblers only allow to scramble to their own ships warpscramble strength! Eg a ship that can warp out can't scramble anymore, according to this logic that would be a perfect fix! /end sarcasm --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:12:00 - [338] Originally by: blahhhblahh Edited by: blahhhblahh on 31/07/2007 03:07:56 Originally by: Sorted /me boos and hisses at the NOS changes. Mainly due to the major detremental effect it will have on the NOS speciality ships (Curse, Pilgrim, Bhaalg etc) I can see some reasoning behind it (Big ships wiping a frigs cap - which they still can with 1 Neut), but its been in the game for years - forum whining seems to be at a peak and focused on NOS recently. BAM NERF BAT>.. whats next ? Dampners? I bet 50M. The great many late changes remind me very painfully off SOE and SWG. poor show. If you insist on the changes the NOS dedicated ships need an extra boost - same as the ECM dedicated ships got during that Nerf. ......... Sorted I agree the longer i play this game the more it reminds me of how Sony screwed up buy listening to too many whiners and pulled out the nerf bat 1 too many times. Frankly im sick of all the nerf this nerf that fools around here. If you dont like the bloody game the way it is DONT PLAY IT !! There are many many people who like things the way they are. If a BS hits a cruiser/or smaller with a nos EXPECT to get nos'd to death.. I bet you people screaming for nerfs all the time would like it so that a frig can take a titan solo.. That is unless it was your titan that got owned. Then you would be in here screamin for a nerf.. Grow the hell up people. Don't like the game go somewhere else. Let us people who enjoy the game the way it is be. NOS DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED AT ALL.. IF you do change it you will Loose lots of your paying customers. I do not know how else i could say this. at least we that wanted a nos nerf posted with our mains
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:13:00 - [339] I have the impression that Dev decisions turned for the worse when they decide about gamplay changes. However they did demonstrate some infrastructure/technology boosts that helped. NOS change - bad bad bad bad BAD !!! The poor Amarr ships with NOS bonuses are screwed now. I'd propose they get a Neut effectivnes bonus - lower neut cap need, so they can still neutralize capacitor effectively. NOS usability is now very limited and a cap booster becomes a must have module to power your ship. Khanid MKII - I like the changes. BUT please remove the stupid rocket/HAM bonuses and apply general missile damage bonuses. Make the restriction by fitting. Right now, Khanid ships will still make mediocre PvP ships (because some missile issues), while they'll make horrible mission ships. With general missile bonuses, they could be very good mission ships (you need the range in missions). Also the fitting requirement pattern should be equalized across missile classes. Rocket launchers take less fitting than standard launchers, HAL/HL are about equal, siege needs more fitting than cruise. Those Khanid ships transfering from shield tankers should get a grid boost. As someone mentioned, getting Amarr frigate to 5 will open more ships to the Caldari folks (armor skills are not that expensive). Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Belial02 Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:19:00 - [340] NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw Originally by: Omeega diplomacy is f1, f2, f3, really...

BCBArclight Odessa Operations	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:22:00 - [341] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have some interesting changes to Khanid........ Interesting.... mmmm yeah I would have said Rubbish changes to Khanid, sorry but I've been thinking about this over night since I heard and I still can't see how this helps Amarr pilots, they have more training to do to use weapons they dont want to use. Maybe giving the Khanid ship the same turret slots as they have now AND missile slots would have been better at least then we could have chose to train missiles. What can we expect from Rev 2.3? The deletion of the Amarr race? Theres no point having them tbh for all I love the ships they have no area where they arent 2nd/3rd best. Odessa Operations are Recruiting
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:23:00 - [342] Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw It is the change to **** Veterans even more Say NO to the NOS nerf
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:24:00 - [343] Edited by: Garia666 on 31/07/2007 08:29:57 I am still very angry and upset even a day after they posted this. I have spend so much training time on ships and setups that making it a waste of time. People who learned for lasers now need to learn missles otherwise you cant even fit your ship. You just force people.. You also killed the flags ships of amarr yet another big inpacting nerf how much can someone take. sigh... i feel a long eve brake comming up.. ->My Vids<-
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:28:00 - [344] Originally by: DarkFollower The guys who say that curses/pilgrims are nerfed should think a bit more before saying that actually even nos domis will be ok , just a bit of twiking in their setups this "nerf" makes modules like the neutralizer and cap flux coil worth to fit, a good thing imo about the curse/pilgrim .. think about it, they are cruisers => low cap , with a mwd even lower cap , activate mwd /rep and the target has alot more % cap than u => nos works , think if u put a neut it gets bonuses aswell => kills more cap , all these thigs combined makes the target lose cap even faster than before => u kill u're target faster ,only downnside is that it won't be as effective agains frigs as before , still good , but not like godlike like it used to be Eh... WTS Clue... It's % based, it doesn't matter if a ship has 100 cap or 10000 cap. If you are the first one when you got 90 cap left you can't drain the opponent to lower then 9000 cap. The only advantage of having lower cap total is that the % impact of activating a module is bigger. Also having lower cap doesn't increase the speed at which you drain. Nor does this change boost neuts in any way so you won't drain your opponents cap faster (there is a reason nosses are used a lot more then neuts, if neuts where so awesome already they would be used a lot more). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Byzan Zwyth Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:29:00 - [345] I agree NOS needs a nerf but this one is over the top how about lower the drain by ~10% on all NOS No ship can fit more than 2 NOS modules Nos can not reduce a ships cap below 15% A single pulse of nos can not take more than 10% of a ships max cap, same change should be for neuts but ~30% bang, the above is a very hard nerf but it does not make NOS so useless and unpredictable with this change, you cant instakill small ships with it and you cant totaly kill any ship with it and you cant fill up your high slots with it and make your targets cap your personal cap like you can now. But if you work together with other ships you can still criple a ship with NOS (reduce it's cap to 15%) and it can help you keep your guns running if you fit one or two. Anyway good luck with it, from what it looks like on paper it will be over nerfed. No one likes to see that ---------------------- Rank: Tech 1 and a 1/2 cannon fodder Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc?
LordVodka Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:30:00 - [346] Some people are suggesting that people now use neuts instead of nos, I don't know if they realized severall amarr ship need nos to even sustain cap, try throwing a neut on there you'll last 30 seconds, cut me a break, theres no way around the fact taht this is a way over done nerf.
Zerv Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:31:00 - [347] MAKE NOS TRANSFER AMOUNT DEPENDENT ON SIG RADIUS.
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:32:00 - [348] Originally by: Byzan Zwyth I agree NOS needs a nerf but this one is over the top how about lower the drain by ~10% on all NOS No ship can fit more than 2 NOS modules Nos can not reduce a ships cap below 15% A single pulse of nos can not take more than 10% of a ships max cap, same change should be for neuts but ~30% bang, the above is a very hard nerf but it does not make NOS so useless and unpredictable with this change, you cant instakill small ships with it and you cant totaly kill any ship with it and you cant fill up your high slots with it and make your targets cap your personal cap like you can now. But if you work together with other ships you can still criple a ship with NOS (reduce it's cap to 15%) and it can help you keep your guns running if you fit one or two. Anyway good luck with it, from what it looks like on paper it will be over nerfed. No one likes to see that Fendahl dosen't like sipme changes he must destroy everything . At least TomB lesft the special ships alone when he used the nerfbat . Say NO to the NOS nerf
Marine Commander	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:32:00 - [349] Originally by: LordVodka Some people are suggesting that people now use neuts instead of nos, I don't know if they realized severall amarr ship need nos to even sustain cap, try throwing a neut on there you'll last 30 seconds, cut me a break, theres no way around the fact taht this is a way over done nerf. It's the way of the forum ***** to say stuff whiout testing
CHAOS100 Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:38:00 - [350] So much for the best amarr ship the Curse... This NOS nerf is too much for the race that specializes in NOS. Also the NOS should be signature based - now they are basically a waste of a high slot. --------------

IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:38:00 - [351] Yay amarr has gone from having 1 solo pvp ship to having none, lets fix amarr by nerfing them more. Im so happy i trained recon 5 :( Instead of nerfing Nos just limit the ships that can use it, the high slot idea was a great idea, limit BS's to 1 or 2 nos and only role specific ships like the curse and pilgrim should be able to use more than 2 nos. I think a lot of people that only play this game for pvp will now only train minmitar i cant see any reason anymore to be amarr just delete them from the game move their ships to caldari and all the amarr players can now go and play another game.. The changes to the Khanid ships are awefull the only people that are going to fly these are caldari.. Amarr players with all their SP's in gunnery are going to have so much fun flying these ships that they can no longer use, and i dont think they will train missiles for pvp because they are useless against nano ships like vagabonds, rapier's and huginn's and now with no NOS to stop them MWDing only ships i see left in this game for solo pvp is the Vaga/huginn/rapier :(
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:39:00 - [352] Nosferatu should not be changed. What is needed is a counter to nos - and you've done the hard work in designing how it could function, so why not go the whole way? What is needed is a "Capacitor Sa***uard" module that prevents a nosferatu module from draining your ship down below the 30% mark, and makes the attacker waste his energy trying. This way, everyone wins. So please, don't nerf nos - give us something to fight it with instead! -- Don't take the carebears out of empire - take the empire out of carebears!
Schroni coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:43:00 - [353] nos needed a nerf, i'm happy how it's gonna be implemented. the khanid stuff looks ok too... thumbs up. ---
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:46:00 - [354] Originally by: Schroni nos needed a nerf, i'm happy how it's gonna be implemented. the khanid stuff looks ok too... thumbs up. Test it , then be happy and cearbear cudly NOS is the worst choice they coud imagine Say NO to the NOS nerf
Arthur Frayn	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:48:00 - [355] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 31/07/2007 08:48:24 Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw There are counters to this change. I see irony at its best when the ones who used nos with such glee and so little skill have now become the whiners and refuse to admit their advantage was inequitable and that they claim such an unchallengeable right to it.
Sucram Amarr North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:52:00 - [356] Originally by: Zerv MAKE NOS TRANSFER AMOUNT DEPENDENT ON SIG RADIUS. I agree with this one. Make so that a heavy nos dont get full amount of cap from a smaller ship. But a smaller nos will get full amount of cap from a bigger target. -------------------------------------------- "From pain comes truth, let me show you the truth"
Waut 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:55:00 - [357] I approve both products and/or services In Soviet EVE, roids pop YOU
Suithar Insidious Existence Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:57:00 - [358] Please un-implement these horrid horrid changes, especially to nos....what were you thinking? Autocannons need a nerf to keep the vagabond in line..maybe like the earlier poster said, they only do damage when your enemies HP are greater than your own...or other clever ideas. Seriously do you test these changes or even play the damn game?
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:01:00 - [359] Originally by: Suithar Please un-implement these horrid horrid changes, especially to nos....what were you thinking? Autocannons need a nerf to keep the vagabond in line..maybe like the earlier poster said, they only do damage when your enemies HP are greater than your own...or other clever ideas. Seriously do you test these changes or even play the damn game? Nope they just lisen to the whining dinos Say NO to the NOS nerf
Yukiyo	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:04:00 - [360] Hi CCP, Can you give my Tristan an uber big gun to kill BS with? I am tired of big nasty BS hurting my little ship, or maybe 5 heavy drones? Please thankyou. Why don't you guys just leave it alone. I personally am sick and tired of your 'balancing.' Leave it alone already. Amarr with launchers? BS not able to kill a frigs cap with a hvy nos? This game has always been artifical and contrived, it is now becoming a complete farce. And another thing. NONE of the changes you have introduced on 'Need for speed' have reduced lag. None of them. Desync? Don't even get me started. 2 years of this cr@p and i have pretty much had enough.

Mindless Slave	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:06:00 - [361] TO wrangler, Tuxford, and the newest nerf-bat wielder Fendahl: Thank you for listening to the community. Samurel (sp?) had a good idea in Khanid MK II and the community as a whole supported it. Unlike alot of MMO companies you guys actually saw an eloquent answer to problems that plagued amarr and took it. I appluad that. The Nos thing is good too, it will of course require some monitoring and fine tuning, but with this new guy(CCP Fendahl) on the team I am confident you guys can do it.
Arkios Odymei D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:06:00 - [362] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 31/07/2007 09:07:06 Im loving these changes, both Nos and Khanid! And all the whiners need to stop whining. All they did was make nos so it is no longer idiot proof. Now it needs a little thinking to function properly (just as it should be with any module, there should be no works-at-all-times-insta-pwn button) Note: I fly both a Curse and a Pilgrim regularly. ------------------------------------------------------------------
VunnaX Cardshark Influence	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:07:00 - [363] This patch is good, but not for the curse, the curse are specialy on nos , why nerf her specialist ? Change the nos system ok fait ship abuse it, but not for the curse, its her specialist, if you change it , change all specialist of all recon...
Artemis Dragmire	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:07:00 - [364] Gonna have to think on these NOS changes, NOS is overpowered, I'll give you that, but the changes suggested and implemented on the test server seem a little over the top... though I have no argument for an alternative or why it should be changed at this point, so I'll refrain from further comments until I put more thought into it.
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr The Plebians	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:07:00 - [365] Am I the only person who thinks the nos change buffs the amarr? Take an apoc for example... Fit 2 x lar IIs and 6 x mega pulse IIs and you'll find your cap sits around zero after a couple of cycles (might need a mwd in there to really gimp your cap) Once in this capless state you can use your 2 heavy nos to your hearts content Then add a cap injector probably to make sure you can still fight if theres no cap available for you to nos (probably with 400's instead of 800's so your cap doesn't go too high) And there we go a nice short ranged nos gank and tank ship... Or have I got it wrong somehow?
Mindless Slave	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:08:00 - [366] Edited by: Mindless Slave on 31/07/2007 09:08:25 Oh and BTW, don't listen to the babies who are loosing their I-win button. You guys have the vision that is eve so go with it. Listening to the whiners pre-release/nerf will only end up with craptastic results (i.e. myrmidon's 125 M3 drone bay... wtf man???)
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:11:00 - [367] Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw Counters to Nos boats currently on TQ: -fly a nos boat -don't undock -bring tons of people If a nos user knows what he's doing, the only way to beat him solo is to fly a better nos boat. As for boosting the Vaga, fit a damn neut. It'll zap more cap than a nos. _____ CPU Love
n0thing omen.	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:18:00 - [368] Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw Ah right. So, what are counters? Boosters that use huge charges? What about ships with 3 med slots? Gimp what? 6 nosf domies? I fly one, and I am not gimped. I just refit it and make it same, riskier, but same. ---
Mindless Slave	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:19:00 - [369] Does half of eve fly Nos-boats or are the Nos-boat users really this whiny?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:22:00 - [370] Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 09:27:16 So the curse isn't as uber in solo 1v1 combat anymore, big deal. Sacri is wicked, Khanid changed breathe new life into Amarr! Oh and I was on the test server last night, you know, actually testing the changes before I came and whined like a little girl on the forums. I can tell you my Curse killed battleships and battlecruisers just like before. I fit one neut to kill my targets tank and nossed someone else to feed the neut. In this way I killed an Abaddon and then a Claymore. I used the Claymores cap against the Abaddon by using it to feed my neut. I enjoyed that. All the time I had enough cap to run my MWD, damps, tracking disrupters, and scram; I was even dual repping at one point when the Claymore got close. This is just one example of what I did last night, there were many other examples of my supposedly nerfed Curse killing ships. It just took a bit of thought about who to nos and when. So its not as easy as clicking orbit, then just setting all nos, ew, and drones on the target. Todays Curse pilot is forced to think . Good players will still be solo killing with any ship they turn their hand to; people with no skill will come whine on the forums about their mindless flavour of the month solo pvp ships being ruined. Oh well EDIT: CCP, please ignore the whiners who want easy to fly solo ships. Veteran players like myself will always adapt to changes, and go kill the unadaptive forum whiners. Your NOS changes make complete logical sense, please keep them in. [This coming from a specialised Curse pilot with Talisman implants] ============================================

Daimos Bellurdan Black Reign FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:23:00 - [371] Thank you ccp for the nos nerf. Every ship out there using a rack of Nosferatus was overpowered. I just love to see the curse/pilgrim pilots going berserk because their solopwnmobile is being nerfed. Priceless! As I see it the new nos has gained a different role. First thing is: It is useless against ships with high cap usage or ships that start fights with low cap. Im thinking about the blaster ships that have to mwd to the target while using armor repairers. You arrive with 50% cap while the target has got 100% cap, so at first you are immune against nos and you are guaranteed a few good nos cycles for yourself. Its an indirect boost to blaster setups or setups that lose cap fast. Im sure people will adapt and come up with some very nice setups. Some may not like the way the nosferatu was changed, but one thing is definately true: A change was needed.
Kel Dario Amarr M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:25:00 - [372] Thirteen pages already.... me wonder if the devs really read everything or if any further posting is pointless. Anyway here goes.... I like most of the changes to the Khanid ships except one, locking their missile bonus to one specific weapon system is just bad for so many reasons, the Damnation one the most obvious. And the nosferatu changes is stupid, when you now fix 3 ships out of 4 you also make the 3 good amarr ships that was made for it useless; Pilgrim, Curse, Bhaalgorn. It would make sense if the new nosferatu was based on signature radius and diminishing returns, but not this. If you going to stay with it then at least revise the 3 amarr nos-ships first. //Kel
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:26:00 - [373] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 09:29:24 Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 09:29:06 Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 09:27:44 I remember when I was a noob, I hated NOS as well. I wished for an anti-nos, and that day came with the advent of super-charged Remote Sensor Dampeners. You noobs who are getting nos'd in low-sec by wardec'd dominixes should try fitting an RSD sometime. They work. CCP, please end this insanity. Continue to boost Amarr, and read this thread here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566624 The solution is to limit NOS hardpoints to 1 or 2 slots on all ships, except for the curse, pilgrim, and arbitrator which are dedicated NOS boats with NOS bonuses.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:27:00 - [374] Ok, basically a repost of points I've put in other threads, but seeing as this is the discussion thread now: Point 1. Nos needs a change, but this current proposal is overly complicated and hits the actual NOS ships (Curse/Pilgrim/Blood Raider) too hard. Yes there are other setups that can be used, but this change has suddenly made nos a very occasional module. The biggest single complaint I keep seeing is with large nos being an I-win button against smaller ships. If thats the case, use the sig radius suggestion and limit the ability of larger nos to hit smaller ships. Point 2 HAM's have too short a range. The Standard HAM has only 18% of the range of a Heavy Missile, compare this to the large launchers where Torps have 68% of the range of Cruise. Even the small launchers where Rockets have 24% of the range of Light missiles. I suggest upping the base flight time of T1 and Faction HAM's to 6 seconds. There is a very good reason why people are not using HAM's on TQ at the moment. Their range is far too short (note i'm not talking about Javelin HAM's here). Point 3 Damnation needs the bonuses to all missile types. It's a slow ship and is using HAM's on it (even if given a longer range) will not be common or useful. Point 4 The Malediction does not need a lock range reduction. 24 km scramblers are common today, your going to introduce a change that will make a tackling ship unable to utilise one of its primary modules to full effect. Why? Give the new Malediction it's old lock range back and whilst your at it give the Claw a better lock range as well. They shouldn't be hamstrung like that in this day and age. ~fin
Belial02 Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:28:00 - [375] Originally by: n0thing Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw Ah right. So, what are counters? Boosters that use huge charges? What about ships with 3 med slots? Gimp what? 6 nosf domies? I fly one, and I am not gimped. I just refit it and make it same, riskier, but same. Yes cap booster is one of em, ECM, speed and using your brain are others. And no I wasnt thinking about domi, I was thinking about curse. So do me a fevour and stfu. Originally by: Omeega diplomacy is f1, f2, f3, really...
Tronm Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:28:00 - [376] As an Amarr pilot, I say no thanks to the Khanid mk2 changes. I trained Amarr for the lasers. If I wanted to use missiles I would train up Caldari. This change is stupid. Give Amarr a boost to lasers instead.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:30:00 - [377] Originally by: LordVodka Some people are suggesting that people now use neuts instead of nos, I don't know if they realized severall amarr ship need nos to even sustain cap, try throwing a neut on there you'll last 30 seconds, cut me a break, theres no way around the fact taht this is a way over done nerf. If you need nos to keep your guns and modules running, then the change will not affect you, since your capacitor will typically be lower than your opponent's. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:33:00 - [378] Originally by: Tronm As an Amarr pilot, I say no thanks to the Khanid mk2 changes. I trained Amarr for the lasers. If I wanted to use missiles I would train up Caldari. This change is stupid. Give Amarr a boost to lasers instead. Caldari pilots have to train both hydrids and missiles to get the full benefit of all of their ships. Why shouldn't the Amarr have some variety in their shiptypes? And if you don't want to train up missiles, you'll still have the majority of Amarrian ships to play with. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:34:00 - [379] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: LordVodka Some people are suggesting that people now use neuts instead of nos, I don't know if they realized severall amarr ship need nos to even sustain cap, try throwing a neut on there you'll last 30 seconds, cut me a break, theres no way around the fact taht this is a way over done nerf. If you need nos to keep your guns and modules running, then the change will not affect you, since your capacitor will typically be lower than your opponent's. Flogging a dead horse there mate, they dont want to hear about how High Cap usage ships are getting a huge boost here. People need to go away, play on the test server for a few hours, then come back and say well done to CCP. ============================================
Xeron Silverblade Esthar Industries	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:37:00 - [380] t2 frigs will be trained next and since those changes i know exactly which frig to bring to 5 ;-) vengenance will be loads of fun als t2 rocket kessy which never has been stable enough for anything serious. as well as the malediction will do fine as a hawk-counterpart. i like those changes to the frigs, 'though i can not comment on the hac/cs as i'm too far away from flying them with my skills. regarding the nos change: i don't think it will make much of a change since people will simply mix neuts/nos on draining-setups and switch them on/off as needed. what i would have liked more to see is a drainage depending on the targets total cap, f.e. 10% of total cap transfered per cycle target ship hast 500 cap, is drained with a nos which can drain 10% of total cap, but not more than 100 in total, so it drains 50 per cycle while target ship has 5000 cap it will drain the 100 which is its maximum. it would still make it possible to suck a ship's cap empty but not that fast which would mean a real chance for close range ceptors/af -- (This space intentionally left blank for now)

Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:37:00 - [381] I endorse this product. "Ruuunaaawayy!!! Run Nos-Jockeys!! Run for your Liveeesss!!!!..." I keep seeing people ask, "ZOMG!!! how R u supposed to kill an inty in a BS now!!111??" Well, I've not used Nosferatu on any of my Blasterthron setups for 2 years. Either: Get them in web range and vaporise them in one volley, or don't and just ignore them - you are not supposed to be able to fit one setup to effortlessly kill everything out there... Oh and the people moaning about the Curse/Pilgrim, ask yourselves; are you really supposed to be able to solo the big ships? You want to solo, risk something bigger, or use the Recon's in their proper place - as part of a mixed gang, a wingman in a HAC for example. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Sailon	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:39:00 - [382] Originally by: n0thing Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw Ah right. So, what are counters? Boosters that use huge charges? What about ships with 3 med slots? Gimp what? 6 nosf domies? I fly one, and I am not gimped. I just refit it and make it same, riskier, but same. theres module called remote sensor dampener it reduces locking range and locking time
Yukiyo	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:41:00 - [383] A sig based change would have made sense, making a Large Nos on a BS as effective as a Small Nos on a Frigate for example, regardless of how much cap each ship has. If you really want to level the playing field so a large Nos type does not disadvantage a smaller ship. Quite why the hell one ship should alwalys be on a level field with another class altogether is beyond me. What irks me is how contrived and artificial all these changes are. CCP really have a great old history of fiddling and mucking about with things to 'balance.' Personally the game is so unrecognizable to the good old days i am getting fed up of it. Tbh, were it not for the real time skills system i would have bailed a long time ago.
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:51:00 - [384] i like a lot nosf and khanid changes. But i have a few concerns: Malediction: Why we got em bonus damage? em bonus already sucks on armor, so intys usually only fit plate or dc. if we fight vs another inty and i have to chose em rocket i would be doing less damage than if i use my explosive rocket vs any inty any day. Also there is another problem with malediction. It need to fly over web range or you gonna be toast in matter of seconds. I would change the 5 rockets damage to 10 rocket damage. And add flight time or velocity to rockets in the free bonus. Although i have say HAM bonus for sacri and damn are good. Since i guess if not we would had EM bonus damage instead and that sucks. There is one problem with HAM missiles and its their very very short range. With max skills a HAM missile can travel to 15km. The difference between max range rocket and max range ham are only 5km but when you compare vs torpedos (next tier short range missile) the range up until 80km. The difference is too high. Range missiles: rocket 10km - light missiles 40km HAM 15km - Heavy missiles 83km Torpedo 83km - Cruise missiles 166km Each time we upgrade a tier in long range missiles they double their max range plus a few km. So if rocket had 10km. HAM should have bewteen 22km - 25km range to be in line with the other missiles. if you fix ham missiles then im OK with khanid changes The last problem are curse and piligrim. Those ships should have a bonus to let them use neuts a lot more cap efficiently. So they can kill caps enemy without completly killing their own cap
Drunken Cajun F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:55:00 - [385] Thanks for trying to help bring the prices of my curse and pilgrim down CCP laissez les bon temps rouler
Dadoes The Valour United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:55:00 - [386] Edited by: Dadoes on 31/07/2007 09:58:28 Firstly I like the Khanid changes, however the NOS changes I'm not so sure about - not the fact it's being changed just that the changes seem overcomplicated and a little illogical? My proposed change for the NOS would be as follows: (Percentage and fixed capaciter values are just examples used to show the principle) Small NOS: Frigate Class 2.5% leech against a fixed max capaciter value of 250. Medium NOS: Cruiser Class 2.5% leech against a fixed max capaciter value of 1000. Large NOS: Battleship Class 2.5% leech against a fixed max capaciter value of 5000. The max capaciter value only comes into play if the target capaciter is larger than the max capaciter value - If the targets capaciter is smaller than the max capaciter value, its the targets capaciter value that is used (therefore no insta-drains from BS's to frigates). NOS's can continue to leech once a target has reached 0 cap, but cannot transfer more energy than is left in the targets capaciter to your own capaciter (therefore when the target is at 0 cap, you get no cap back yourself). As the leech amount is now % this means NOS's can be stacking nerfable. Faction mods could just have a larger fixed capaciter values.
MinRray Minmatar FireTech Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:56:00 - [387] what about the usefullness of talisman implants ?
ChapterMaster	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:56:00 - [388] incoming rant I just have to say that I am shocked and disgusted to say the least, Hasn't enough been done cripple Amarr? how about you make lasers generate heat when they fire? that makes sense right? the only thing "interesting" about this change is that you found something else to hinder and hurt the Amarr.
IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:58:00 - [389] Can CCP move all SP's relating to Amarr over to Minmitar skills for thos that dont want to be amarr after this change ?
IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:00:00 - [390] CCP can shove all my Amarr acounts up their #@($ if these changes comes in.. any of them. I cant belive we pay them to come up with this crap

ChapterMaster	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:00:00 - [391] Originally by: IPyric Can CCP move all SP's relating to Amarr over to Minmitar skills for thos that dont want to be amarr after this change ? I second this, 1 SP or any other race is as good as 2 Amarr SP. it boggles the mind. for Amarr to succeed, they might as well skip lasers, and go straight to Missiles.
Yukiyo	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:00:00 - [392] It shouldnt matter how much cap another ship has. Are you trying to tell me that all our ships are going to be retrofited so we all have sensors which tell us how much cap our target has? How will my Nos know how much cap the target ship has otherwise? Can i have a read out of that? Will all these extra calculations cause yet more damn lag? These contrived mechanics make suspension of disbelief impossible.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:02:00 - [393] Originally by: Ovno ConSyquence Am I the only person who thinks the nos change buffs the amarr? Take an apoc for example... Fit 2 x lar IIs and 6 x mega pulse IIs and you'll find your cap sits around zero after a couple of cycles (might need a mwd in there to really gimp your cap) Once in this capless state you can use your 2 heavy nos to your hearts content Then add a cap injector probably to make sure you can still fight if theres no cap available for you to nos (probably with 400's instead of 800's so your cap doesn't go too high) And there we go a nice short ranged nos gank and tank ship... Or have I got it wrong somehow? Nope, completelly agree with you. These nos changes are a huge boost to Amarr laser ships.
Trade JCache	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:03:00 - [394] Thanks for removing half of the T2 laser vessels. I really had a hard time deciding which one to skill, but now things are so much easier for me. The Damnation was(!) a command ship with the option to use almost any weapon system, now it is supposed to be just another armor tanked missile boat... not that we were missing that kind of ship. What the hell was wrong with the option to fit missiles or lasers?! Limiting a ship to a weapon system that most people of that race don't use for a good reason is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen. Or can we expect a Nighthawk/Vuture with lasers to compensate that loss? With all my skill plans turned into dust some brilliant minds tend to say adapt or die. Considering the given options dying sounds like a winner to me...
Crazy Yuri	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:03:00 - [395] Just wondering, will there be any T1 Amarr missile boats other than the inqusitor to bridge the gap between frigate and Khanid Mk II? (other than fly Caldari).
Vanst Keal GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:09:00 - [396] Edited by: Vanst Keal on 31/07/2007 10:09:38 Originally by: Zerv MAKE NOS TRANSFER AMOUNT DEPENDENT ON SIG RADIUS. Quoting for page 15.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:10:00 - [397] Originally by: ChapterMaster Originally by: LvxOccvlta Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 10:04:58 If this NOS nerf comes about, we might see a resurgence of 100-man Frigate Gangs. Battleships will become limp like putty against a group of tacklers. And it will have to be 100 non-amarr frigates as well, because under the next round of restrictions, all Amarr ships will self destruct 10 mins after leaving the station. Can I have your stuff then?
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:12:00 - [398] Originally by: Holy Cheater Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one. In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think. Stop crying. You know how "solo pvp curse combat" looks like now? Set orbit 18-20km, f1-f8 (1-4 launcher+nosf, 5-7 3x damps, 8- scrambler), send drones, go afk, collect loot. If your cap is getting low nosf sth else (can be NPC). If you cant kill target, recall drones warp away (not like you were hit thx to damps anyways). I gladly welcome back old f1-f8 ganks vs tank slugfests rather than f1-f8 "cant touch me i kill you" ganks. At least when you commit to combat "old style" you risk your ship.
The Amarrien	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:15:00 - [399] WTF!! They turning all my amarr ships into rocket ship! i have 0 SP in missiles. Brilliant job
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:19:00 - [400] Dear god after reading this thread I now know Amarr were not underpowered it's just most amarr pilots are frickin idiots this is not a nerf to most amarr ships listen to the 10% of amarr pilots who have tried it on test server and are trying to point out it still works well. Theres even 2 posts on how to setup and use the curse so it still wtfbbq's most things you just cannot set orbit at 25km start the mods and go wipe the drool off your chin anymore and come back to a dead hostile. And HAM's I saw somone say there not used because of there short range while this is technically right it's also *******s there not used because putting short range weapons on slow unagile sheild tanking ships is stupid HAM's are just pointless on cal ships but the sac is going to kick ass.

N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:21:00 - [401] Originally by: ChapterMaster Originally by: LvxOccvlta Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 10:04:58 If this NOS nerf comes about, we might see a resurgence of 100-man Frigate Gangs. Battleships will become limp like putty against a group of tacklers. And it will have to be 100 non-amarr frigates as well, because under the next round of restrictions, all Amarr ships will self destruct 10 mins after leaving the station. BS are not supposed to be able to kill small fast ships, thats what destroyers, assault frigs, and other support ships are for. If you want to knock out inties in a BS, fit a neut, or neut drones, or all small guns, or use your brain. ============================================
Count Hades	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:23:00 - [402] Originally by: R3DSKULL Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. Umm this guy is the one you should have advising you on how to develop this game. He seems to have a clue as how to get foward progress. Im a little miffed that half my ships no longer have the option of lasers. Im kinda miffed that as an amarr trained for two years, i have to train missle skills now. Something i never wanted to do. I think options. SO whats the backstory one day khanid came in and transformed all our ships? they were always really caldari. Nos nerf is a poor choice it needs to be redone. Nos should be changed but in an evolutionary way. And i like how CCP pulls out the nano sac. 5 lows, 5 missle turrets. Hhaha the next nano ship. I think you should nerf nano ships and make it like the old days where fast ships were intercepters. And vagabonds were mean armor tankers. MWD were created to get close range ships in close range. But i guess thats evolution or is it? Really it would be nice to see some verbal interaction in this post to not just all of us talking to you with no response. Answer for yourselves. Explain why your doing what you do. Dont we all atleast deserve a level of interactive feedback. Very disappointed with you people of late. /signed. Those of you not flying amarr stop telling us what you think about these changes. The changes to the Khanid ships just don't fit the philosphy of the entire amarr race and do not go with the Khanid own history. From shield to armor, and from lasers to missiles. It is so wrong in so many ways...
Count Hades	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:24:00 - [403] And as for the Nos... I think there are better sollutions out there than this announced one.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:26:00 - [404] Great changes. Nos is now a defensive weapon, Neuts are the offensive one. Pilots now have to use some modicum of intelligence in knowing when to apply - and to whom - nos, neuts, cap boosters and tank etc. Cap warfare just got interesting, rather than the mindless F1-F8 wait-for-the-pop easymode beforehand. HAM/rocket damage bonus on Khanid is fine. Javelin HAMs and rockets aren't short-ranged weapons anyway, and applying the bonuses to standard missiles and heavies would obsolete Caldari missile boats, so isn't viable.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:28:00 - [405] Originally by: Holy Cheater Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one. In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think. You better point your destructive energy into fixing the lags than implementing some insane ideas. Excuse me if it sounds too offensive, but I'm being killed by EVE's "evolution" for over half of year.. PS: Damnation now have no free pg and you adding it a launcher slot and removing 210pg.. Hi, let me introduce you to a module you may not be aware of... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
VunnaX Cardshark Influence	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:29:00 - [406] The real solution is to do nos hardpoint on ship with no NOS specialist , why curse was nerf for all man use NOS ? ! Nerf nosboat not specialist, not the recon specialist or nerf all recon ... -_-'
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:31:00 - [407] Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 10:32:09 Originally by: Count Hades Those of you not flying amarr stop telling us what you think about these changes. The changes to the Khanid ships just don't fit the philosphy of the entire amarr race and do not go with the Khanid own history. From shield to armor, and from lasers to missiles. It is so wrong in so many ways... Khanid have good relations to the Caldari, and as such always integrate Caldari technology into their ships. They might not fit with TRUE Amarrian philosophy, but they fit PERFECTLY with Khanid philosophy. EDIT: Go see for yourself! ============================================
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:31:00 - [408] Khanid boost: Amarr: We want versality, we are stuck to our damagetypes!1!!1 CCP: Allright you get superstrong armor tanking boats, that spam missiles so you can use all your cap on tanking, which you get a dual bonus for. We even make you faster, than closerange vessels!1!1!11 Amarr: WTF I need to train missiles, onoes i suck. This is unfair CCP!1!1! Caldari: ONOES, amarr owns us now! But we have been overal decent since beta, we never really sucked. And now we still dont really suck... For the record im gallente and have good drone + gunnery skills and i trained light missiles lvl 5 just to fly the ares (Which sucks balls). So stop whining. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:33:00 - [409] Re-think the Khanid ships too, if Amarr pilots wanted caldari ships they would train caldari ;/
maGz Invicta.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:35:00 - [410] NOS needed a nerf but this is just ******ation at its best. There has been many suggestions as to how you could nerf NOS, yet you decide to go with an extremely poor and illogical solution that in reality just shows how unimaginative you are. NOS should be nerfed with tracking penalties, sig radius dependency etc., as has been described by many others in this thread. It's kinda ironic that a majority of this dev blog revolves around you actually listening to the community (re. Khanid MKII), and then at the same time you introduce changes that, while obviously satisfying the whiners, are completely out of touch with what the general consensus has been in regards to what should be done to NOS. Might be time to actually give that whole nerf-bat a rest and maybe, just maybe, play the game, listen to the community and maybe you'll realise that the ones knowing the game best is not the ones sitting on their flat behinds up in Iceland. ____________

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:36:00 - [411] Originally by: IPyric Re-think the Khanid ships too, if Amarr pilots wanted caldari ships they would train caldari ;/ Learn to play the game and stop complaining!
h3llrayser	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:37:00 - [412] First of all i'm a caldari pilot , i don't fly anything else but caldari but i've been in eve for a long time to notice that amar needs a boost and making them missile boats won't do that , and more , balancing the game is not about making all races the same because it's stupid to have for races if u give them the same weapons and btw short range missiles SUCK on caldari ships i don't think they wolud be any diferent on amar ships or maybe u want to turn eve into need for speed nano missile boats witch the nerfing on the nos will help alot (stupid ideea) What amar need right now is to make their lasers better or work on the ships bonuses or fitings. If u want to do something about the nos this is the way to go: if u have 2 nos on u-re ship everything is the same but if u put a third one it will be only 30% efective the 4'th only 5% Dont leave bs'es defenceles against smaller ships it's just not fair , if u are in an interceptor u can't expect to live forever or in a vaga (vaga is so popular not because it can fight so well in a battle but because it can run so efective if the ods get even close to 50/50) if u are in a fast ship it means u want to run more than fight and running won't get u any killmails that's all i have to say
Jonny Magellan	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:38:00 - [413] Pick one of the following or a combo to balance NOS, they are ordered by my preference: 1.The best Nos nerf would be IMO add a charge to nos usage like cap booster. In fact make it very similiar to Cap Booster. Might not be totally balanced, as cap booster isnt, but since it requires charges no one would whine. Kinda like us Amarr accept having gimped weapons since they use no ammo over others that do hehehe. 2.Make it hurt your max cap kinda like mwd and cap flux coil. 3.Sig radius dependant. 4.Mess around with powergrid reqs and cpu. 5.Stacking penalty. 6.% drained adjustment. 7.Increase ammount drained and activation time, add an activation energy cost. Ex: Small nosferatu atm is 3 seconds activation time and drains 8 energy with no skills. Make it like activation cost 20 energy, drains about 76 energy after 20 seconds. Quote: I dont like the Nos change as its overly complicated and makes nos too specialized to use, more so than smartbombs and neuts. About Khanid overall good changes. Imo a good change would be get rid of all weapon upgrades like heat sinks bla bla and make a global turret upgrade so dual weapon ships wouldnt be so gimped, fixing a whole load of ships with a simple fix.
IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:38:00 - [414] Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 09:27:16 So the curse isn't as uber in solo 1v1 combat anymore, big deal. Sacri is wicked, Khanid changed breathe new life into Amarr! Oh and I was on the test server last night, you know, actually testing the changes before I came and whined like a little girl on the forums. I can tell you my Curse killed battleships and battlecruisers just like before. I fit one neut to kill my targets tank and nossed someone else to feed the neut. In this way I killed an Abaddon and then a Claymore. I used the Claymores cap against the Abaddon by using it to feed my neut. I enjoyed that. All the time I had enough cap to run my MWD, damps, tracking disrupters, and scram; I was even dual repping at one point when the Claymore got close. This is just one example of what I did last night, there were many other examples of my supposedly nerfed Curse killing ships. It just took a bit of thought about who to nos and when. So its not as easy as clicking orbit, then just setting all nos, ew, and drones on the target. Todays Curse pilot is forced to think . Good players will still be solo killing with any ship they turn their hand to; people with no skill will come whine on the forums about their mindless flavour of the month solo pvp ships being ruined. Oh well EDIT: CCP, please ignore the whiners who want easy to fly solo ships. Veteran players like myself will always adapt to changes, and go kill the unadaptive forum whiners. Your NOS changes make complete logical sense, please keep them in. [This coming from a specialised Curse pilot with Talisman implants] !! Duel REP and Talisman implants in a curse LOL no wonder these changes dont affect you.. you dont even know how to fit a curse.
Mighty Baz HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:47:00 - [415] Only one question, tell us what extra bonuses will be implemented for "NOS" ships like curse/pilgrim if you are going to nerf NOS ? There is the same sitauation regarding nerfed ECM moduls...even extra bonus for falcon/rook is worth nothing atm... maybe the better way is remove NOS, ECM and dampners in the future. What for that moduls? if all of them will be nerfed ...again. ______________________________________________ based on legendary XVII century Polish winged cavalry
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:48:00 - [416] Originally by: IPyric !! Duel REP and Talisman implants in a curse LOL no wonder these changes dont affect you.. you dont even know how to fit a curse. Translation : "OMG you don't fit your ship like every other ftm bandwagon jumper, how dare you use your brain and come up with a diferent fit?!?"
Inflexible InNova Tech Inc	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:49:00 - [417] Very nice job CCP. Now, if you want cripple enemy ship you need to pay for it (aka use neut). You can still use NOS to feed your tank/guns. Excellent. Khanid ships look sexy too
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:49:00 - [418] Originally by: IPyric Originally by: N1fty [This coming from a specialised Curse pilot with Talisman implants] !! Duel REP and Talisman implants in a curse LOL no wonder these changes dont affect you.. you dont even know how to fit a curse. Right, my cruiser which can take nos at the rate equivalent to 6 Heavy Diminishing, and Neut the cap of battleships very quickly with just one Med Neut. At the same time Dual Rep tanking... So its not a Shield extender Nanocurse like most FOTM huggers fly, its more than able to kill battleships AND take a beating. I fly it my way. ============================================
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:52:00 - [419] Regarding the nos changes in terms of curse & pilgrim: Curse will be ok, needs some modifications and will be a bit weaker in 1v1 but overall it will not break the ship. It's a different thing for the pilgrim however. It does not have a nos range bonus (meaning its operational range is only 12k without faction gear) and is relatively slow - which makes it no good gangship. Its sole purpose is a 1v1 hunter of bigger ships (since it cannot really catch small agile craft). Due to its low operational range it cannot use fully disabeling EW and needs to tank some of the dps of its target - and is reliant on nos to do so. It plain out does not have cap regen to tank some of the dps of its target, run scram and EW - and that is before using neuts to kill the targets remaining cap. Cap injectors were mentioned here as solution, however this works for both sides - and the pilgrim has a cruisersized cargoroom. It will run out of breath before its target will. My own pilgrim is sitting in my jita hangar since months, now I fear it will be a permanent placement.
MECTO Xenobytes Stain Empire	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:54:00 - [420] Well, Whole changes are good, except the wa Curse And Pilgrim got killed, they should have a special bonus (role maybe) for unnerf it to today state of nos. ! i like new khanid ships too :) except maybe lack of dps for damnation and sacrilage in feature It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright

Count Hades	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:56:00 - [421] Edited by: Count Hades on 31/07/2007 10:59:04 Edited by: Count Hades on 31/07/2007 10:58:40 Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 10:32:09 Originally by: Count Hades Those of you not flying amarr stop telling us what you think about these changes. The changes to the Khanid ships just don't fit the philosphy of the entire amarr race and do not go with the Khanid own history. From shield to armor, and from lasers to missiles. It is so wrong in so many ways... Khanid have good relations to the Caldari, and as such always integrate Caldari technology into their ships. They might not fit with TRUE Amarrian philosophy, but they fit PERFECTLY with Khanid philosophy. EDIT: Go see for yourself! True.. but missiles seem a bit too much.. Anyway i am sure we are just wasting breath here. Clearly noone from CCP even reads this. Otherwise maybe they would fix the other more important problems in this game, starting with lag and de-sync. In the end CCP is god. Its will will be done no matter what we say and think.
Azuse The Brotherhood Of The Blade The Makhai	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:00:00 - [422] Nos needs some type of change, obviously, you can never please everyone, though admitedly in this case amarr pulse boats arn't going to worry about being nossed to death . My confusion, and my problem, is if the equilibrium is based on recharge what use will nos be vs. a larger target? Hacs and recons already have a higher base cap recharge than a bs, or indeed, any bc. So while this will indeed help the amarr ships (\o/) it also means the nos will only be effective, or simply, it will only work if the ship your nossing is smaller than you. A pilgrim has a much higher cap recharge rate than a bs, so no effect (the opposite rather), my ishtar also has a higher cap rechage, demios, zelot.... so what's happening to them? So you've got controls in effect, but really, as it stands ill still be fitting nos on my hacs, after all, what choice do i have? If i know a bs will be carrying a nos i have little choice but to use 1/4 - 1/5 of my fitting room to fit nos not to benefit myself but to offset the nos of my target, sucks tbh. More over, if this does chance what will happen to the nos implants? K, it isn't final but as it stands only the bs gain anything (and the amarr ship ofc \o/).
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:02:00 - [423] Originally by: Count Hades Edited by: Count Hades on 31/07/2007 10:59:04 Edited by: Count Hades on 31/07/2007 10:58:40 Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 10:32:09 Originally by: Count Hades Those of you not flying amarr stop telling us what you think about these changes. The changes to the Khanid ships just don't fit the philosphy of the entire amarr race and do not go with the Khanid own history. From shield to armor, and from lasers to missiles. It is so wrong in so many ways... Khanid have good relations to the Caldari, and as such always integrate Caldari technology into their ships. They might not fit with TRUE Amarrian philosophy, but they fit PERFECTLY with Khanid philosophy. EDIT: Go see for yourself! True.. but missiles seem a bit too much.. Anyway i am sure we are just wasting breath here. Clearly noone from CCP even reads this. Otherwise maybe they would fix the other more important problems in this game, starting with lag and de-sync. In the end CCP is god. Its will will be done no matter what we say and think. Its Amarrian armour combined with Caldari shortrange missiles. Which is much better than Armour and Shields as it used to be. Even if CCP arent reading this, at least a few people might be... ============================================
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:03:00 - [424] Goodbye nosdomi. Hello passive draindomi. I don't know enough about the amarr stuff to be able to tell whether the khanid changes are good or not, but there is a chance that it's something that will make me branch out to amarr ships in a few years when my current plans are done. 2007-07-19 20:26
4rc4ng3L Gallente C R Y O	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:04:00 - [425] Edited by: 4rc4ng3L on 31/07/2007 11:11:10 This is a ridiculous way to nerf Nos. Of all the good suggestions you picked the absolute worst. Almost every other suggested solution to the almight nos was better than what you are planning. You are rendering Nos a coompletely USELESS weapon, why not go for the stacking penalty or sig radius idea, honest to god sometimes the way you decide to balance everything in this game makes my head hurt and makes me question the amount of time iv put into this game. You listen to the forum whiners which are roughly 10% of the PvP population within eve then to keep them happy you gimp the rest of us, the ones who actualy use what you are catacylsmicly beating with the nerf stick! GOD DAMIT! Clearly you dont want to keep the older members within eve, too busy making it a happy little populous for your influx of new players! Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live...
Drash Kammatarr German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:06:00 - [426] Originally by: Ben Booley I love the nos and Khanid Mk II changes. Amarr have long needed some flavor and an actual second weapon system like all the other races, and armor tanked missile boats does that. I do think that the apoc should be re-configured as a missile boat, and possibly also proph / maller, so that there are some T1 ships leading into the T2 khanid ships, and its not a completely different thing than what' s been trained for. .... err, pal, are u thinking about what you are writing before u write it? and its not a completely different thing than what' s been trained for. If I trained Lasers all the way up to tech 2 it's not completely different from training Missiles up to tech2?????? These changes are crap! Even for the Malediction, the smallest ship in the pack I now would have to invest at least another 20 days of skilltraining to fly it with full efficiency. I've been flying this ship for the whole last year with full efficiency, using Lasers, and now it's back to school for me. This sucks bigtime. I will simply have to fly another ship. Thank god CCP didn't destroy all my possibilities yet, but they are getting close and they are trying hard. DO NOT NERF!!!!
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:08:00 - [427] Originally by: Kalazar Originally by: MECTO Would be nice for the Maled to get the bonus to standard missiles as well as rockets though, as opposed to JUST making it a suicide ship (going into web range with an interceptor = suicide), Javelin Rocket's reach 13K BASE, alright you have a velocity penalty, but its not as severe as getting webbed now is it? ============================================
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:09:00 - [428] Originally by: Gypsio III HAM/rocket damage bonus on Khanid is fine. Javelin HAMs and rockets aren't short-ranged weapons anyway, and applying the bonuses to standard missiles and heavies would obsolete Caldari missile boats, so isn't viable. A ship if fine IF you use T2 weapons AND T2 ammos? What kind of crap argument is that? If a ship isn't fine with the standard, T1 stuff he's supposed to use, there is a problem with the ship, period. The use of T2 is a bonus, it is not, it should never be, a prerequisite for being fine. As for obsolote caldari boats, no, they'd just be different and just as good. And they should be just as good, not inferior caldari variants. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:12:00 - [429] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Gypsio III HAM/rocket damage bonus on Khanid is fine. Javelin HAMs and rockets aren't short-ranged weapons anyway, and applying the bonuses to standard missiles and heavies would obsolete Caldari missile boats, so isn't viable. A ship if fine IF you use T2 weapons AND T2 ammos? What kind of crap argument is that? If a ship isn't fine with the standard, T1 stuff he's supposed to use, there is a problem with the ship, period. The use of T2 is a bonus, it is not, it should never be, a prerequisite for being fine. As for obsolote caldari boats, no, they'd just be different and just as good. And they should be just as good, not inferior caldari variants. T2 Ships demand T2 equipment, thats what they are designed for. If you want to use T1, use T1 ships. ============================================
pSiKo	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:12:00 - [430] sigh such a loss. i rigged some of my sacrilege for long range laser fights. 100km range with extreme tracking. god damn, i hope i get my rigs back. why do you have to toy around with existing ships? just make new ones if you feel it should be that way. i have no missile skills and never was interested in that - i use lasers (poor me, yes), but now i am even more f****ed, i cant use the weapons i have to. that idea sux. give me working lasers, no need for flipping everything upside down.

Kaakao Insidious Existence Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:13:00 - [431] Originally by: Kalazar However, the Khanid ships I like, don't have any missile skills so to speak at the moment, but they can be trained. Would be nice for the Maled to get the bonus to standard missiles as well as rockets though, as opposed to JUST making it a suicide ship (going into web range with an interceptor = suicide), Not sure, but I think you should get +10km rocket range with the velocity bonus. ------- [EXIT] - IAC
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:15:00 - [432] First i'd like to say, that after reading a good portion of the posts, this is only to one half the amarr ships, meaning gun bonus's will not be wasted. I do however agree that it should not be soley close range missles, as this is unfair balance, and leaves no options for FOF's which leaves amarr still easy to EW. I also noticed people are taking the NOS change the wrong way, this means you will never be complety drained of your cap by a swarm of NOS, allowing you to survive longer. Damntion is by far my most used ship, and the extra missle point will be great for missions, but i will NEVER use hams on it, only heavy launchers. To my understanding, your expecting a ship inteded to sit far back and snipe, to now get up front where the absoultion would normally be, this plain doesn't sound right, and i do not agree. What ammar with half brain ever sheild tanked any of his ships? Retorical question. Love the nos changes, don't forget about the energy destabs people, using one will lower your cap allowing you to nos more, even if your not primary and using your tank. I defintly think it should be duel bonus, to both long and short range missles, i don't care if the Caldari pilots whine or not, it's only fair, just cause no one else wants to use HAMS, don't force them on us, give us some flexiblity. Cheers
Dendron RebelsUnited	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:19:00 - [433] Feck CCP, first you nerf my curse speed/agility and now my nosferatus! When you gonna nerf my dampeners some more and drones? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:19:00 - [434] Originally by: Azuse ...A pilgrim has a much higher cap recharge rate than a bs, so no effect (the opposite rather).. Uh... cap recharge time alone is pretty meaningless here. Firstly you ignore that a BS also has on average 4 times the cap of a pilgrim. A neut does with max skills kill 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if the pilgrim tries to kill the targets cap it will run out of cap BEFORE the BS. Secondly you ignore that it will have to tank damage, too - unlike the other recons it cannot disable a target completely. Your average BS can kill the pilgrim 4 times before it runs out of hitpoints if neither side runs a rep/booster.
Drash Kammatarr German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:20:00 - [435] Originally by: Shin Mao Thank you CCP you give good PVP missile boats for caldary players P.S. I gues you forgot transform Abadon to Khanid Abadon, this will be realy nice here you go: Isk-Farmers love you, CCP
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:29:00 - [436] Edited by: Happster on 31/07/2007 11:29:40 Lets see if i understand this correct. Now the cap warfare has become like this. To destroy a targets cap, you have to destroy your own cap too?
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:31:00 - [437] I would like to test these new bonus's out, but can't seem to find a patch, or a way to patch my existing version. I geuss i can't really comment to much further till i've flown them and can see what their true potenial is. I know it says it's curently on the test server, but i'm lost, can someone point me in the right direction?
Miss CJB Gallente In White Suits	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:32:00 - [438] i've seen alot of ppl wining about the noss nerf, though i havent seen any perticuly good reasesn (though i havent read all 16 pages), so i'll give one:- the new noss system would mean that, whenever you try to noss someone, your own cap skills work against you. hance the skills will be giveing you a negitive affect. last time i checked, this was not the way skills were ment to work, since you cant de-train them. but this noss nerf is better than none, since currently you, you can spend 10 bill on a tank, but is compleatly meaninless if you run into a ship packing a couple of noss.
Azuse The Brotherhood Of The Blade The Makhai	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:33:00 - [439] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azuse ...A pilgrim has a much higher cap recharge rate than a bs, so no effect (the opposite rather).. Uh... cap recharge time alone is pretty meaningless here. Firstly you ignore that a BS also has on average 4 times the cap of a pilgrim. A neut does with max skills kill 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if the pilgrim tries to kill the targets cap it will run out of cap BEFORE the BS. Secondly you ignore that it will have to tank damage, too - unlike the other recons it cannot disable a target completely. Your average BS can kill the pilgrim 4 times before it runs out of hitpoints if neither side runs a rep/booster. Not how i woud have put it but that's pretty much what i ment (looks like it wnet over your head tho ). If a pilrgims cap recharged twice as fast as the bs cap, nothing would happen, if the bs nossed the pilgrim, then the pilgrims cap would fall but bear in mind that its recharge rate is still lower than that of the bs, so despite its nos bonus, it isn't sucking squat. Enter neuts stage left. Now the little pilgrim turns a neut on, bs cap drops but unless it drops below 35% (peak recharge) all your doing is increasing the difference in both ships recharge rates, meaning that not only is your own cap dropping and your nos not nosing but the bs is nossing even more from you. N.B "Uh... cap recharge time alone is pretty meaningless here." - if cap recharge time is the basis for the amount of cap transfered, how can it be meaningless? Lastly, this is only for the pilgrim, which with carefull neuting could break the bs cap, but for other hacs there is just no point in carrying nos, other than countering (which it wont really do) a bs nos.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:35:00 - [440] Originally by: egal069 I would like to test these new bonus's out, but can't seem to find a patch, or a way to patch my existing version. I geuss i can't really comment to much further till i've flown them and can see what their true potenial is. I know it says it's curently on the test server, but i'm lost, can someone point me in the right direction? clicky And please read this before going onto SISI ============================================

Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:40:00 - [441] Well, the NOS changes are drastic, if your going to go changing Energy emmissions systens, might as well make it a complete overhaul, instead of just nerfing one module. 1. Neuts adjusted. currently, 24 seconds for the large module to work, and if they get outta range in that 24 seconds, your still out your cap. Cut the cycle time (as well as cap cost and cap neutralized) by at least 50% (12 second cycle, 300 cap activation, 300 cap zapped for large) 2. Energy Emmissions systems spec skill, that increases the trnsfer % by 5% per level, so players can spec in NOS/Neut. 3. Give the curse/Pilgrim something, like a bigger Cap/faster recharge rate. Something that makes it not kill itself attacking an enemy. 4. Been a while since I fit Neuts, but I seem to recall ENergy Emissions skill not giving them the 5% reduction per level it should. Also, never fit the Energy emission rigs, but they should reduce cap for them as well.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:42:00 - [442] You know, you also need to change the name of the module now... Afaik your role model vampire does NOT go like 'oh my now I got more Blood than my victim, I must stop!' Heck the very name implies sucking something dry. Stacking penalty would be a much more reasonable fix. Like, the first vampire gets to suck on the carotid, the second and third get the wrist arteries, and any others only get to suck on the fingers... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Soulbound Bob Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:44:00 - [443] Energy neutralizers. This is a welcome change. You must understand that anyone asking you to give money to get money is scamming you one way or another.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:44:00 - [444] Originally by: Baynex Originally by: Temugen Originally by: Silpher Originally by: Izo Azlion Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. And no I'm not going to threaten to quit or other silly things infact I just got a year long sub, evolve or die someone said I'll evolve, and I quite like neuts anyhow but for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works. I mean I can't help but pity the ammar guys who suddenly discover that their ship they have trained months to use well is gonna lose a fair chunk of pg with no upside and this is advertised as an 'interesting change' interesting as in time to sell your Amarr char and become Caldari maybe? Anyhow I've gone on far to long. Johho. You've hit the nail right on the head, and smashed it right through the plank of wood that is the Dev Teams idea Block at times. Sorry Devs, but this needs some serious contemplation. Customs has your gear - use this time to change the nos nerf to a nos FIX. Thanks. /Signed /Signed /and signed some more. /SIGNED and thanks for expressing what most ppl in eve think in such eloquent terms /signed and if you implement this i might cancel my account....cause all my skill training will be rendered useless from the last 2 years NOT SIGNED!! Nos needed a nerf and that's the bottom line. Nos was too good, now its a defensive module. A cap boost would have just made cap charges over powered. And to Mr. "2 years of training....gone " guess what? Amarr still have other classic ships you know. Such as the Zealot or maybe the Retribution, also try the crusader. Perhaps all 3 battleships will fit your taste? Or all of the T1 cruisers? I heard the Absolution is pretty nice as well. That uses lasers! I also liked the Punisher myself. Our Battlecruisers are so-so but they have their uses. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:45:00 - [445] It's funny, because my favorite ships (obviously with maxed skills) are the Crow and the Curse/Pilgrim. So the NOS nerf affects them in opposite ways and I think that this renders my opinion nonpartisan. I won't be too hard on CCP because the proposed changes only exist on SiSi, so I hope there's still room for changes. It's more the methodology which seems very unfortunate to say the least. If devs are really genuinely interested by the opinion of the community, you simply open a dedicated thread asking for feedback about desired NOS changes, pick up the most pertinent solutions proposed, quietly discuss them and finally test them, instead of doing exactly the inverse which can only lead to the classic whine party we are seeing. NOS nerf: I don't deny the power of NOS. However, we are talking about a module that everybody can easely fit. Among the plethora of ships existing in EVE, only 3 have been optimized for NOS use, and there's no way of fitting NOS/NEUTS without automatically lowering your DPS since these use high slots. For all those who always whined about NOS, there's always been a perfectly valid counter: use NOS yourself. Therefore, I can't see the proposed NOS change as being anything else than a boost to those who never either wanted to use and/or did not understand how to use NOS. Besides, as previously said the 3 ships optimized for NOS, namedly Bhaalgorns, Curses and Pilgrims, will not be able to fulfill the function of their intended design if they do not escape the NOS nerf, since nowhere has it ever been stated that these ships would only be able to fully use their bonuses when facing multiple foes, what automatically will place them in a situation of inferiority or will deny their use as solo ships. There is something that CCP should understand once and for all: don't nerf things but create conditions of reduced effectivity of given modules by either handing out additional options to counter said modules or by creating penalties on other relevant aspects. What amused me the most is the principle that X% capacitor of whatever ship = X% capacitor of nossing ship, because it's already like that when the two ships belong to the same class and both fit the same number and class of NOS'es (with the 3 optimized NOS ships as exception). But to come with an algorithm were X% cap of whatever ship class = X% cap of the nossing ship does not make sense regardless of the perspective you might choose. Maybe we should apply the same principle to our subscriptions, and pay them in Zimbabwean or Sudanese currency...
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:46:00 - [446] Originally by: Azuse Not how i woud have put it but that's pretty much what i ment (looks like it wnet over your head tho ). If a pilrgims cap recharged twice as fast as the bs cap, nothing would happen, if the bs nossed the pilgrim, then the pilgrims cap would fall but bear in mind that its recharge rate is still lower than that of the bs, so despite its nos bonus, it isn't sucking squat. Enter neuts stage left. Now the little pilgrim turns a neut on, bs cap drops but unless it drops below 35% (peak recharge) all your doing is increasing the difference in both ships recharge rates, meaning that not only is your own cap dropping and your nos not nosing but the bs is nossing even more from you. N.B "Uh... cap recharge time alone is pretty meaningless here." - if cap recharge time is the basis for the amount of cap transfered, how can it be meaningless? Lastly, this is only for the pilgrim, which with carefull neuting could break the bs cap, but for other hacs there is just no point in carrying nos, other than countering (which it wont really do) a bs nos. Cap recharge time is not the basis for amount of cap transfered, you must have misunderstood the changes. The base for the amount of cap transfered is current cap percentage, cap recharge rate has nothing to do with it. You don't even need to defend against a BS nos if you are cap stable, unless the BS drains its own cap to 0 to be able to drain your cap with nos alone. After the changes the nos will become a tool to help stabilize your own cap (even at the expense of the cap of your enemy). Cap warfare (totally draining your opponents cap), will be transfered to energy neuts where it should belong.
Issle Gallente VentureCorp	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:51:00 - [447] It doesn't matter if it's polished mahogany or real Nerf(tm) material - you're still hitting a good portion your customers in the face. I fly Amarr. Lots of Amarr. Sure, I'm Gallente trained, but added other races for some utility. I've owned numerous Maledictions, and a handful of Vengeance frigs, in addition to their larger cousins. This change completely destroys my ability to use those ships for their originally intended purpose. Now I have to train to be Caldari just to keep flying neutered Amarr ships? Perhaps I missed it- did you expand the cargo bay of these ships to account for the fact that they must now carry large payloads of ammunition? If not, that's a double-slap, because you wont be able to loot & pillage as before, either. I won't touch the NOS topic, there's a good supply of people far better suited to that than I. Ship changes, though - that stings. In the past, there have been relatively minor tweaks made to ships (the Mal getting missile points at all, for example), but completely changing ships to the point of utterly annihilating the way the entire playerbase that owns them can use them? There's a word for that. Dumb. You want to call it Khanid Mk II? That's a great idea. How about seeding new blueprints for these new variants? Rather than utterly shafting people who have invested good time and money in your company to enjoy the game (and ruin their enjoyment), this provides you with yet another Isk-sink opportunity to keep the monkeys grinding for their treats.
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:51:00 - [448] I personaly think this is an excellent soultion to NOS, and that people are simply misunderstanding how it's going to work, the pilgrim/curse or anything that gets a nos bonus will not be hurt by this. I understand it to be, the person attacking can not drain the target beyond his cap lvl, so a curse could support it's mwd off a BS, untill the BS got to the same cap amount percent wise, meaning if your cap is holding at 1/3, than there's will be drained to 1/3 as well, and them running their tank to repair, will finish off their cap the rest of the way. Speaking as a amarr pilot, I'd rather finish my own cap off than let the other guy have it. As for the curse/pilgrim pilots, use one nuet and two or three nos, as your cap drops closer to 0%, the nos will replinsh your cap enough to make their bone dry. Just my 2cents.
Mysa Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:51:00 - [449] Originally by: General StarScream Every race but the gallates have a Missile boat now fix the Domi to be a missile boat as well. Im hitting you whit the stupid stick now m8, why you say?? you are stupid, yep plain stupid you need a good bashing! What CCP should do is to remove that 5% bonus to Large hybrids since there is no pg to fitt Large hybrids(no no no Mega Electrons is not an option here, crap dmg) and replace it what a Energy neut 5% bonus instead. that will make the dominix usefull.. Still im gonna use 2xE500 and 4xMed Neut II, it just gave me the oppertunity to fitt a plate or 1 more eamn II damnit
Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:52:00 - [450] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azuse ...A pilgrim has a much higher cap recharge rate than a bs, so no effect (the opposite rather).. Uh... cap recharge time alone is pretty meaningless here. Firstly you ignore that a BS also has on average 4 times the cap of a pilgrim. A neut does with max skills kill 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if the pilgrim tries to kill the targets cap it will run out of cap BEFORE the BS. Hmm, is that with max skills, Energy Emission Rigs? I figure you should be able to reduce the Cap cost of a Neut by more than 50% with 2 Emission Rigs and Emission 5, then you get the 100% bonus to energy zapped from the Curse, it should kill at least 4 cap for every cap invested, probably slightly higher.

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:52:00 - [451] Originally by: Leandro Salazar You know, you also need to change the name of the module now... Afaik your role model vampire does NOT go like 'oh my now I got more Blood than my victim, I must stop!' Heck the very name implies sucking something dry. Stacking penalty would be a much more reasonable fix. Like, the first vampire gets to suck on the carotid, the second and third get the wrist arteries, and any others only get to suck on the fingers... Actually, in some versions of the vampire myth, totally sucking a victim dry results in death for the vampire. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:01:00 - [452] NOS vs NEUT: NOS will be used to sustain your gank and tank, Neut will be th offensive type wich kills your enemies gank and tank (you can train skills and buy named modules making your cap drain less then your targets). NOS can be used as a counter measure against Neut making sure that if you go down your taking your enemies CAP with you. This will make Offensive Cap draining ships abit less powerful in its own cap but still GOOD SHIPS. NOS will help Tanks&Ganks that depletes CAP fast. (Passive tanks wont be able to use it since its CAP should stable out around 50-70% with hardeners, or 100% on total passive). Heck try to fit Neut on a drake with a passive tank LOL, passive tanks are powergrid heavy, caldari boats dont have that power grid, even with PDUs) Curse; GOOD curse pilots have already tested and come up with solutions making this ship DEADLY still, perhaps not a nobrainer anymore but its NOT USELESS PPL WTF! Sacrilage: Ok every caldarian on this forum is drooling over this ship.. doesnt that say something amarrians? perhaps it is a good ship god forbid? pun intended. HAMs are useless today true, becouse caldari ships are stationary batteries. The Sacri will get a massive speed bonus and a mass reduction. HEAVY tank and 4 slots for GANK (Havent seen a slot change atleast). Included with a short range high damage of any type (comparing to other missile boats and systems here, not guns). Its a missile version of a blaster boat with lower damage but a SICK tank and the speed to use it. (some Caldari auto-whine) As a Caldarian pilot all i can say HELL YEAH, a gank and Tank missile boat (\o/) and NOS wich most my ship never could fit nerfed! At the same time im crying my own missile boats are still ******* slow, give us Agility and speed back CCP! Amarr will still have shortrange DMG, give caldari our kiting back rawr (still long range = no gank so please pretty please /beg ) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:03:00 - [453] Originally by: egal069 I personaly think this is an excellent soultion to NOS, and that people are simply misunderstanding how it's going to work, the pilgrim/curse or anything that gets a nos bonus will not be hurt by this. I understand it to be, the person attacking can not drain the target beyond his cap lvl, so a curse could support it's mwd off a BS, untill the BS got to the same cap amount percent wise, meaning if your cap is holding at 1/3, than there's will be drained to 1/3 as well, and them running their tank to repair, will finish off their cap the rest of the way. Speaking as a amarr pilot, I'd rather finish my own cap off than let the other guy have it. As for the curse/pilgrim pilots, use one nuet and two or three nos, as your cap drops closer to 0%, the nos will replinsh your cap enough to make their bone dry. Just my 2cents. Actually, you would have to NOS a different target, cause if your Neuting an enemy, he is losing cap as well, so NOS still won't work Vs. him. As for Khandid MkII, just give them the bonus for all missiles of their size, and let them fit for the role they want. Forcing them into short range is not a cool idea, it cramps people's playstyles.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:05:00 - [454] Originally by: xaja Originally by: n0thing - Amarr pilots who whine about missles. Tbh, each race have split training: Gallente Turrets/Drones, Caldari Turrets/Missiles, Minmatar Turrets/Missiles. Amarr had like 90% of turret based ships, well, that now been brought in line with other 3 races. Now you focus on main race skill tree like Gunnery but also need to cros-s-train drones/missles just like other races. Nothing new here. You're wrong. Amarr already had to train guns / drones, like gallente - and with less benefit from the drone training, yet couldn't live without it. Congratulation, now you have to almost do the same training a Minmatar needs. Drones, missiles and guns. Minnies also need shield skills as half our ships are shield tankers. Be happy for what you got
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:07:00 - [455] Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 31/07/2007 11:29:40 Lets see if i understand this correct. Now the cap warfare has become like this. To destroy a targets cap, you have to destroy your own cap too? No.. TO DESTROY YOUR ENEMIES CAP YOU GOTTA USE NEUTs. NOS will help you keep your gank up, and make sure that if your cap is going down, your target sure as hell is gonna follow giving you more cap for Gank&Tank, This helps setups that use Cap Faster then its enemie or against ppl trying to KILL YOUR CAP WITH NEUTs. Please ppl you can still use cap warfare, it just costs you some cap to like using your GUNs to kill your enemies is. Sorry for Caps but its getting abit annoying, seems most ppl on this forums doesnt know NEUTs exists (dont blame them much thou with the way NOS has been). "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:07:00 - [456] i like the change. atleast for the khanid...the nos might need a bit more work to keep the NOS ships like pilgrim alive... Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Grayplate Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:09:00 - [457] Im honestly trying to understand the change, now NOS will look at your current Cap % and only take the targets Cap to that % as well, regardless of size? Are you going to make NOS work against NPC's as well? Currently it doesnt seem to do so. ΦConcord, the ultimate noob ganksquad!Φ ΦFYI. I am not allowed to mount a bayonet on a crew-served weapon.Φ
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:10:00 - [458] The sac can deal out more dmg now like it used to before the missile bonus got removed. Its a tank, not a gank ship. But it can be both now due to the lack of low slots it can deal out good dmg now with maybe a dmg mod inbetween the tankslots. The only drawback is the lack of missile skills for most amarr pilots. I have them and I will use them but the ship will be useless if it cant use heavy missiles effectivly. I still think this nos nerf is idiotic. Ship lovers click here
onyu	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:10:00 - [459] Originally by: BCBArclight What can we expect from Rev 2.3? The deletion of the Amarr race? Theres no point having them tbh for all I love the ships they have no area where they arent 2nd/3rd best. Or at least display a warning in the character generation screen for new players.
Rafein	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:12:00 - [460] Originally by: Grayplate Im honestly trying to understand the change, now NOS will look at your current Cap % and only take the targets Cap to that % as well, regardless of size? Are you going to make NOS work against NPC's as well? Currently it doesnt seem to do so. Pretty much. If you have 50% of your max cap, and your opponent has 75% of max cap, Nos works as normal. If you have 50% max cap, and your opponent has 45% max cap, Nos does not affect them. They lose no energy, you get no energy back.

Kayscha	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:17:00 - [461] Thank you very much for handing over half of all Amarr Tech 2 ships to Caldari and other missile-loving freaks. I have no skills in that area whatsoever - now I may either scrap all my beloved Khanid ships or start learning missiles from scrap - which I won't, since I don't like them. Neither continuity nor role-playing seems to be high on your agenada, CCP, does it? Otherwise one might wonder why Amarrian ships suddenly lack the very gun their race has a bonus in... I guess I might scrap RP in Khanid space as well, since I can forget about my role as a loyal defender of Khanid interests.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:18:00 - [462] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 31/07/2007 11:29:40 Lets see if i understand this correct. Now the cap warfare has become like this. To destroy a targets cap, you have to destroy your own cap too? No.. TO DESTROY YOUR ENEMIES CAP YOU GOTTA USE NEUTs. NOS will help you keep your gank up, and make sure that if your cap is going down, your target sure as hell is gonna follow giving you more cap for Gank&Tank, This helps setups that use Cap Faster then its enemie or against ppl trying to KILL YOUR CAP WITH NEUTs. Please ppl you can still use cap warfare, it just costs you some cap to like using your GUNs to kill your enemies is. Sorry for Caps but its getting abit annoying, seems most ppl on this forums doesnt know NEUTs exists (dont blame them much thou with the way NOS has been). I do know Neuts, i also know they empty your cap when using them. So basicly, while draining your targets cap your also draining your own cap. In other words. To destroy enemy cap you have to destroy your own cap. This is being followed up on tank=broken. Which again follows to biggest dps = I win!
Vardemis Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:20:00 - [463] I like the changes.
Ombrae Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:25:00 - [464] To sum myself : 2 char ; 1 amarr pvp focused, 1 carebear also trained into amarr pvp (recon/has) + dominix About the NOS change, I didnt check it all nor do much testing, so it's mostly theorics. - before : NOS is used 1/ to kill someone else tanking/firepower 2/ to sustain your own firepower/tanking - tomorrow : NOS can only help sustain your own firepower/tanking (I include mwd'ing into tanking), NOS skill (energy emission system) don't affect NOS. Killing someone else cap look now devoted to cap neutralizer. Have to check on curse/pilgrim how that will work, I always fit a cap neut on curse. Against enemy using cap but not needing it to tank/kill (passive shield, missile/projo), look like we will get in trouble even more than before. Against inty, nos can be switch to neut, its not the same, pple will hate that (me as well), but that a viable solution. More testing needed anyway :) Khanid¦ : I dont like it. Like some other pple sum it up, Khanid will be double penalized with long range missile (both CPU and no-bonus issue). The close-range setup look ok, but that will be one of the very few (or only?) ships that limited to close-range bonus only. Even deimos/astarte/vaga etc... beneficy of their bonus with long range guns, even if they dont work as well for some or have to fine twink PG/CPU. Can the dmg/rof bonus be generalized to missile, and not only HAM/rocket? Double bonus for HAM/rocket will greatly spec those ships, but that dont look fair on the long run. Malediction specific problem : rocket malediction wont be able to kill any interceptor. Not only is it short range, but its also very low speed. Rocket = 2250m/s base speed, that can go up to 3375m/s. That around half the speed of any basic interceptor.... Add a very low range, and most rocket will be wasted unless you manage to both web his speed below 3000m/s and stay at point blank of another interceptor. To compare with crow : 3750m/s base speed, that can go up to 5625m/s with skill, and with crow bonus up to 8437m/s will keeping a long range. Also i'm pretty sure the crow bonus also apply to rocket speed? Vengeance : unable to shine at long range, make a very tough short range tackler if he manage to come that close. Sacrilege : pretty much like vengeance. Damnation I never fly, dunno if it's intended to fire or not in figth, with patch he wont be able to fire anyway :) Ombrae & Goramath - Altera Odyssea -
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:28:00 - [465] Originally by: Azuse I do not understand what you are talking about and still utterly miss the point. Have you even read what I wrote? Lets try if an example works. A pilgrim has 1250 base cap. A geddon has 5132 base cap. This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim. A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if you try to neut the cap of the geddon you will run out of cap BEFORE it. Azuse: But there is the cap recharge! Yes. But what you fail to understand is that this cap recharge is already in use. A pilgrim cannot even sustain a single rep (which it needs to run since it cannot completely disable targets), EW and scram with its cap recharge. It has no free recharge left to power the neut.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:30:00 - [466] Originally by: xaja Originally by: n0thing - Amarr pilots who whine about missles. Tbh, each race have split training: Gallente Turrets/Drones, Caldari Turrets/Missiles, Minmatar Turrets/Missiles. Amarr had like 90% of turret based ships, well, that now been brought in line with other 3 races. Now you focus on main race skill tree like Gunnery but also need to cros-s-train drones/missles just like other races. Nothing new here. You're wrong. Amarr already had to train guns / drones, like gallente - and with less benefit from the drone training, yet couldn't live without it. EVERY race has to train drones. So take these right out of the equation, meaning Caldari, Minmatar and Amarr are now on par and Gallente have it better in getting a bonus to a weapon system everyone must train anyway. Actually Minmatar have it harder since they need both armor- and shieldtank. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:33:00 - [467] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azuse ...A pilgrim has a much higher cap recharge rate than a bs, so no effect (the opposite rather).. Uh... cap recharge time alone is pretty meaningless here. Firstly you ignore that a BS also has on average 4 times the cap of a pilgrim. A neut does with max skills kill 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if the pilgrim tries to kill the targets cap it will run out of cap BEFORE the BS. So you're saying that the Curse will have a lower % cap than the BS after activating its neut? If only there were a module that would steal cap from the BS and give it to the Curse when the Curse has a lower % cap... Quote: Secondly you ignore that it will have to tank damage, too - unlike the other recons it cannot disable a target completely. Your average BS can kill the pilgrim 4 times before it runs out of hitpoints if neither side runs a rep/booster. Are you talking fleet, gang, or solo? Fleet -Rook/Falcon don't have to tank b/c they're instapopped. Also, ability to disable is chance-based. -Other recons - out of range to use ewar. Gang -Rook/Falcon (same as in fleet, but may be able to distance tank depending on opposing gang competition) -Arazu/Lachesis - can disable a handful of targets. All other targets can fire at them. Drones/FOF's from the disabled targets can hit them. Still need to tank (or instapop) -Huginn/Rapier - Can't disable any targets (in terms of preventing damage) without using unbonused damps. Can't tank much damage at all, so speed tank. -Curse/Pilgrim - Can disable 1 turret BS per TD or, if using 2x damp setup, can disable 1 BS. Should be able to get any target below peak recharge or, using multiple targets, use multiple targets' cap to nuke 1 target's cap. Will have to tank if it can't outrun/out distance damage from other ships, like the other Recons. Solo -Rook/Falcon - HA -Arazu/Lachesis - Could solo gunship w/o drones. Solo of active tanked BS impossible (but can prevent it from fighting back against NPC's). Vulnerable to FOF's and drones. -Huginn/Rapier - could solo droneless ship with no range. Will have trouble with BS without using damps. -Curse/Pilgrim - Should still be able to get any ship below peak recharge without using injector. 2x damp nanocurse may not be viable against everything anymore, but 1x TD nanocurse should be. This may limit the Curse's solo ability to turret ships of all classes and missile BS's. That's still better than just about any other ship. You'll have to watch your drones until you kill his, and a cruise raven that goes after your drones may not be worth the micromanagement. Cruiser-class missile boats and other drone boats would be pretty much your only concern, and you should be able to disengage if things go poorly. Curse will probably be buffed before the nos nerf goes live, but even without a buff it will be the best or second-best sub-BS solo ship in the game. _____ CPU Love
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:34:00 - [468] Originally by: Happster Originally by: Fager Originally by: Happster Edited by: Happster on 31/07/2007 11:29:40 Lets see if i understand this correct. Now the cap warfare has become like this. To destroy a targets cap, you have to destroy your own cap too? No.. TO DESTROY YOUR ENEMIES CAP YOU GOTTA USE NEUTs. NOS will help you keep your gank up, and make sure that if your cap is going down, your target sure as hell is gonna follow giving you more cap for Gank&Tank, This helps setups that use Cap Faster then its enemie or against ppl trying to KILL YOUR CAP WITH NEUTs. Please ppl you can still use cap warfare, it just costs you some cap to like using your GUNs to kill your enemies is. Sorry for Caps but its getting abit annoying, seems most ppl on this forums doesnt know NEUTs exists (dont blame them much thou with the way NOS has been). I do know Neuts, i also know they empty your cap when using them. So basicly, while draining your targets cap your also draining your own cap. In other words. To destroy enemy cap you have to destroy your own cap. This is being followed up on tank=broken. Which again follows to biggest dps = I win! Well with skills your killing your enemies cap faster then your own. Kinda like using lasers to kill you enemies ship. If you feel the need to kill enemies CAP y'its still very viable with NEUTs. NOS is abit more defensive but can still be used to make your enemies cap and cap recharge work for your tank or guns. You cant destroy enemies cap and Gain cap anymore, youll have to use some of your own cap to kill your enemies cap totally. This favors good cap and powergrid ships like the gasp amarrian ones since having a big cap yourself makes your NEUTs better then your enemies with lower max cap and recharge. This will also be a nerf in the BIG vs SMALL. Small ships cant use Neuts very good VS big ships while BIG ships will demolish small ships with Neuts kinda like NOS used to do. The more i think about these changes the more i like them, both NOS and NEUTs will now require thinking before using... not just a win/win module(NOS). Im sure NOSing pwnmobile pilots dont like it, but i still says these changes make these wpns interesting and balanced to other wpn systems now. Also with it being harder to kill the Cap, the Tanks will be slightly boosted to, not much but still... ++ to the Tank vs Gank scenario. /Good Job CCP, so many fixes in such a small change (this ought to add some gasoline to the fire hehe, j/k) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:38:00 - [469] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azuse I do not understand what you are talking about and still utterly miss the point. Have you even read what I wrote? Lets try if an example works. A pilgrim has 1250 base cap. A geddon has 5132 base cap. This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim. A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if you try to neut the cap of the geddon you will run out of cap BEFORE it. Azuse: But there is the cap recharge! Yes. But what you fail to understand is that this cap recharge is already in use. A pilgrim cannot even sustain a single rep (which it needs to run since it cannot completely disable targets), EW and scram with its cap recharge. It has no free recharge left to power the neut. Since when was a cruiser supposed to be able to solo a battleship anyway? Nos the battleship down to 40% then use neut to break his tank finally. Or use a Cap Booster, or nos one of his mates instead, or or or, ADAPT. ============================================
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:39:00 - [470] Originally by: Kayscha Thank you very much for handing over half of all Amarr Tech 2 ships to Caldari and other missile-loving freaks. I have no skills in that area whatsoever - now I may either scrap all my beloved Khanid ships or start learning missiles from scrap - which I won't, since I don't like them. Neither continuity nor role-playing seems to be high on your agenada, CCP, does it? Otherwise one might wonder why Amarrian ships suddenly lack the very gun their race has a bonus in... I guess I might scrap RP in Khanid space as well, since I can forget about my role as a loyal defender of Khanid interests. If you really think that this change goes AGAINST Khanid RP and backstory, you are not much of a Khanid RPer in the first place. They are a Caldari/Amarr hybrid. And Missiles+Armortank is the perfect solution to put that in game. The old spilt slot/split tanking did not work and just made them crappy ships. Shieldtanking laserboats would not work due to cap issues (would have to give them SO much cap that it would make them overpowered for other uses). So this is perfectly in line with the Khanid backstory. Now if your REAL problem is that you won't have cheap Khanid junk to fly anymore, come out and say it because that is really the only valid complaint that I can see about this. (Besides the obvious lack of bonus for long range missiles). There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones

Iog Krugar The Rising Stars Dark Horizon Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:40:00 - [471] i do like the NOS/NEUT changes and think they make the game better (for everyone but amarr recons, that is. they should get a bonus of "i can nos someone with 5% less cap than me per recon level"), but my main complaint is the long duration of the large neut. in a battleship fight, currently you need 2 well timed neuts to make sure you kill every second cap booster 800 before the other guy can use them. if you only use one neut, they get one for free and might even get to cycle their tank from a second charge before your neut hits them. i'd like to keep the neuts cap/s ratio as it is, but make it cycle faster, so you have a little more control over how much cap you want to waste on keeping someones cap at "below useful" level. having neut only deplete your own cap related to how much it actually kills on the other side would be too much to ask for i guess, but i'd take that any second oh, and i smell a market for Egress Port Maximizer I rigs... --- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:42:00 - [472] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azuse I do not understand what you are talking about and still utterly miss the point. Have you even read what I wrote? Lets try if an example works. A pilgrim has 1250 base cap. A geddon has 5132 base cap. This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim. A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if you try to neut the cap of the geddon you will run out of cap BEFORE it. Azuse: But there is the cap recharge! Yes. But what you fail to understand is that this cap recharge is already in use. A pilgrim cannot even sustain a single rep (which it needs to run since it cannot completely disable targets), EW and scram with its cap recharge. It has no free recharge left to power the neut. I was thinking about this before. NEUT is now a double-edged weapon. It kills your opponents cap, but since it kills more than you use to cycle it, you are basicaly enabling your opponent to NOS you. I expect "bleeding" setups to appear. They will rely on passive tanking and weaponry while bleeding the enemy cap and their own to 0. Once both reach 0, passive tank and weaponry will kill the opponent. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:48:00 - [473] Capboosters + Neuts = the New Nos. -- Billion Isk Mission
Tobber Harley Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:48:00 - [474] I think the NOS changes sounds really good. They where WAY overpowered, also on the Amarr recons. Just use neuts (which they also have bonus to) and stop whining. Loving the Khanid ship changes, now these ships will actually be an interesting alternative to Caldari ships. But shouldn't the Damnation get at least 6 launchers slots like the Nighthawk, since it's going all out on missiles now? I also can't see why they only get bonus to HAM/rockets when Caldari gets it to all launcher types... And are you not forgetting that ballistic controls are lowslot, taking from the armor tank, making it even harder to get some good DPS going?
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:51:00 - [475] Quote: Have you even read what I wrote?Lets try if an example works.A pilgrim has 1250 base cap.A geddon has 5132 base cap.This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim.A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested.This means if you try to neut the cap of the geddon you will run out of cap BEFORE it. Use Nos in conjunction with the neuts, to keep your neuts running as you cap out. Or a cap booster.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:51:00 - [476] Originally by: Santa Anna So you're saying that the Curse will have a lower % cap than the BS after activating its neut? If only there were a module that would steal cap from the BS and give it to the Curse when the Curse has a lower % cap... The tiny detail you miss is with that tactic both ships will eventually sit at 0% cap. The curse or pilgrim cannot keep using nosses to power neuts while keeping its cap at 30%. Which it needs to, because it needs its peak recharge to power scram & EW. So the catch-22 is: - in order to kill the target it needs to kill it's cap - in order to kill its cap below peak recharge it needs to get its own cap below peak recharge - in order to kill its target it needs EW to avoid getting killed by it and a scram to stop it from fleeing - in needs it's peak recharge to power these modules And in case you say now "cap booster" - guess what its target can fit, too. This works for both sides. Quote: Pointless text which is missing the point The curse will be weakened, but ok. We are talking about the pilgrim, though. Notice how you conveniently ignored it? The pilgrim is no gangship. It is slow and has a very poor range with it's secondary weapon (nos/neuts) which makes it only really useful as 1v1 hunter. The nos changes essnetially kill that role since it won't be able to hunt anything but cruiser. For which you do not need a pilgrim really. Mine sits already in jita since months, with that changes it will probably never undock anymore.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:52:00 - [477] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Azuse I do not understand what you are talking about and still utterly miss the point. Have you even read what I wrote? Lets try if an example works. A pilgrim has 1250 base cap. A geddon has 5132 base cap. This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim. A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested. This means if you try to neut the cap of the geddon you will run out of cap BEFORE it. Azuse: But there is the cap recharge! Yes. But what you fail to understand is that this cap recharge is already in use. A pilgrim cannot even sustain a single rep (which it needs to run since it cannot completely disable targets), EW and scram with its cap recharge. It has no free recharge left to power the neut. I was thinking about this before. NEUT is now a double-edged weapon. It kills your opponents cap, but since it kills more than you use to cycle it, you are basicaly enabling your opponent to NOS you. I expect "bleeding" setups to appear. They will rely on passive tanking and weaponry while bleeding the enemy cap and their own to 0. Once both reach 0, passive tank and weaponry will kill the opponent. Sadly the pwoergrid usage of NOS/Neuts dont go well with the heavy powergrid usage of passive shield tanking and the low base powergrid of missile boats. I have a T2 fitted drake in my hangar, using 3lows and 4meds for extenders and power diags. I got 1228.9/1228.98 powergrid left. lvl3 in Adv Wpn Upg. I guess lvl 5 and another power diag instead of a BCU could help. But each Neutralizer II uses 120 more powergrid then my tech2 launchers. You might get 1or2 neuts on when you lose the BCU (sacrificing DMG). Otherwise your gonna have to lose extenders and gimp the tank to get the bleeding effect, not to say you gonna ahve to waste yet enother med for a scram. I just dont see it, atleast not for caldari ships... Perhaps passive shield tanked minmatar boats can pull it off? Using passive shield tanking doesnt go well with the scrams thou, and even the web thats most of the time needed to keep targets in place... Generally i dont worry of passive shield tanked draining builds, but it might be probven wrong. I am not flyin gon the test server after all :) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Iog Krugar The Rising Stars Dark Horizon Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:53:00 - [478] Originally by: Hugh Ruka I expect "bleeding" setups to appear. They will rely on passive tanking and weaponry while bleeding the enemy cap and their own to 0. Once both reach 0, passive tank and weaponry will kill the opponent. not sure if that'll work fitting wise (neut/standard missile drake? neut/cruise rokh?), but yeah. for amarr recons, they will propably run out of cap for EW shortly before the other guys tank collapses and thats when hp buffers make the difference. at least its a fight then and not just a wtfpwn versus BC and up. --- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:53:00 - [479] Hello - I'm a caldari pilot and I'm jealoux... Nosferatu overhaul seems very very well thought and should balance the use rather well... The Khanid Mk II - Hmm... I am very impressed... But especially the Sacriledge bothers me a lot. Remember we are playing a game where most action for PvP is sub 24km range making caldari range a bit iffy bonus. The HAM missiles was a cool and long awaited bonus - and actually the caldari range on certain ships really helped getting some range. We need that since we are very slow and kind of maneuver like bricks... But the Sacriledge gets better speed to close and HAMs are not that poor range (I am using a HAM Drake myself) but it has a damage bonus to ALL damage types. An Issue Tuxford spent tons of text explaining that caldari would only get kinetic bonus because racial damage was here to stay Well - if it wasn't for the great tanking bonus on the sacriledge I didn't mind the versatility... but those tanking bonus AND damage bonus to ALL damage types is a bit over the edge and will most likely make the Cerb STFU without breaking a sweat. Pinky Denmark - I'm a nice guy!! MOA is NOT UGLY!!! It's A FREAK SHOW!!!!
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:56:00 - [480] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/07/2007 13:02:06 Originally by: N1fty Since when was a cruiser supposed to be able to solo a battleship anyway? Nos the battleship down to 40% then use neut to break his tank finally. Or use a Cap Booster, or nos one of his mates instead, or or or, ADAPT. Hello? Is that so difficult to understand? It doesn't matter where the BS is. If a geddon and you are at 40% and you use a neut to bring you from 40% to 30% the geddon will be at 33% because the very things I said. Reread it if you fail to understand that! A cap booster works for both sides. And BSs have more room for charges than a recon. The only way for this to work is if you have multiple targets. Which is fine for the curse. However the pilgrim is no gangship, nor is it any good to fight vs 2 targets at once due to its very low nos range. It is a 1v1 ship - and with those changes it will only be able to kill cruisers. Originally by: Gypsio III Use Nos in conjunction with the neuts, to keep your neuts running as you cap out. Or a cap booster. Answered in the last 2 posts. Originally by: Hugh Ruka I expect "bleeding" setups to appear. They will rely on passive tanking and weaponry while bleeding the enemy cap and their own to 0. Once both reach 0, passive tank and weaponry will kill the opponent. You forget that tackling gear needs cap.

N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:01:00 - [481] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Santa Anna So you're saying that the Curse will have a lower % cap than the BS after activating its neut? If only there were a module that would steal cap from the BS and give it to the Curse when the Curse has a lower % cap... The tiny detail you miss is with that tactic both ships will eventually sit at 0% cap. The curse or pilgrim cannot keep using nosses to power neuts while keeping its cap at 30%. Which it needs to, because it needs its peak recharge to power scram & EW. So the catch-22 is: - in order to kill the target it needs to kill it's cap - in order to kill its cap below peak recharge it needs to get its own cap below peak recharge - in order to kill its target it needs EW to avoid getting killed by it and a scram to stop it from fleeing - in needs it's peak recharge to power these modules And in case you say now "cap booster" - guess what its target can fit, too. This works for both sides. If the enemy fits a cap booster then his cap will go higher than yours and you nos/neut it back down again, while using your own boosters. Originally by: Aramendel Quote: Pointless text which is missing the point The curse will be weakened, but ok. We are talking about the pilgrim, though. Notice how you conveniently ignored it? The pilgrim is no gangship. It is slow and has a very poor range with it's secondary weapon (nos/neuts) which makes it only really useful as 1v1 hunter. The nos changes essnetially kill that role since it won't be able to hunt anything but cruiser. For which you do not need a pilgrim really. Mine sits already in jita since months, with that changes it will probably never undock anymore. Pilgrim is a gangship, it can tackle a ship and wait for friendly gang members to warp in. What about its cyno gen bonus, what about covops role? Think outside your tiny specific bubble, PLEASE. ============================================
Urm	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:04:00 - [482] What saddens me most is that (once again) CCP encourages us to comment, after posting a Dev Blog, but do not have the courtesy to reply to any concerns raised (or praise given). Having been in the game for several years I have learnt there is no way to properly counter any changes CCP intend to make to the game. They always have, and always will look out for the new players, chasing them to get that year subscribtion (and sell collectible cards). And they do that over the backs of the dedicated fans who have been loyal for years. Now, on the subject, the moment I noticed NOS become a regular whining subject on these forums, I started cross training, knowing CCP will keep the (new) masses happy and ruin that module as well. My predictions have come true and now I am horrified to see that people are already shifting to the next "overpowered" module. The time it takes between these nerfs is getting shorter as well and its getting tricky to predict the next nerf. The Khanid changes are very sudden. Though I do not nessecarily disagree with the reasoning behind the decision, I think that doing it this way, Amarr is being hurt (again). Caldari pilots are not using rockets and HAM for a reason, and to simply force them on Ararr specialized pilots, this way, tells me it will be a long time before we will see Amarr ships once again dominate the battlefield, if not to say that we won't see them on the battlefield at all anymore. And a lot of people will have to do some serious skilling to catch up, which is unfair. It would be somewhat the same as removing the dronebays of Gallente ships (OMG I may just have given them an idea). I am more and more looking forward to the patch where we can walk in the stations, as we are approaching the time where there is no point going out in ships anymore since thay are pretty much the same. The only way to get some satisfaction from playing this game will be sat in the station playing cards with your corpmates... I challange CCP to step up to plate and explain a bit on their reasoning behind these changes. (Oh and while your at it, pls look into my petition as well, its been a month and I still have had no reply...)
anillation	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:06:00 - [483] This will really kill a lot of gallente setups. My myrm, brutix, domi, thorax all use 1-2 nos to keep the blasters going. Most of those ships I use a dual rep and no plate so cap is crucial. With this change in nos I wouldn't be able to keep my cap going to run the rep. Gallente suck cap wise as is, even with nos I still carry a few cap charges just in case. Also that would really hurt the EOS since you basically wait for your opponents cap to run before yours does. I think this will seriously damp a lot of gallente ship setups. Thats like saying lets nerf blasters so if they can only get the targets ship armor down to what your ships amor is at. The other thing I could see this seriously affecting amarr ships like the armageddon. They must have nos to run the guns and still use cap charges so they can run heavy hitting guns. I know if this nerf happens I will need to train for minmatar so I can have a nice setup for pvp.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:08:00 - [484] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/07/2007 13:11:33 Originally by: N1fty If the enemy fits a cap booster then his cap will go higher than yours and you nos/neut it back down again, while using your own boosters. Only an utter moron uses cap boosters like that. It's boost -> cap -> activate reps/weapons/tackling/propulsion -> no cap within 1 sec. You will only nos some of that if you are very lucky with the timing. Quote: Pilgrim is a gangship, it can tackle a ship and wait for friendly gang members to warp in. What about its cyno gen bonus, what about covops role? Think outside your tiny specific bubble, PLEASE. Everything of that can be done far better by other recons. You might as well claim that the scorpion is a heavy tackler because it can be fitted like that. That does not make it good in it. To repeat myself, a pilgrim is no gangship because its plain out the worst recon in that role. Obviously it can be used like that (just as you can use a scorpion as tackler or dominix as fleet sniper) but that does not make it a good idea or its intended role.
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:11:00 - [485] I would say that the bonus to only close range weapons is a bad precedent, and heavy handed with no reason. There is no other ship in the game that I can think of that is only limited to a close or long range variety of a weapon this way, and there is no reason to start now. I believe a much more elegant solution is to limit these ship's CPU, and tweak the HAM CPU use in such a way as to make their fitting geared to close range missiles instead of forcing the players to use only the short range varieties. Apart from that, thew changes are pure, 100% gold. Congratulations. --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Inflexible InNova Tech Inc	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:15:00 - [486] Originally by: Aramendel A pilgrim has 1250 base cap. A geddon has 5132 base cap. This means the geddon has 4.1 cap for every 1 cap of the curse/pilgrim. A neut with maxxed recon and energy emission skills kills 3.2 cap for every cap invested. ... It is perfectly ok if cruiser can not kill BS. Try killing geddon in falcon or rapier.
Kopesse	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:15:00 - [487] My only gripe re what i personally fly is the Malediction. I use it for the magic 3 midslots. I have 0 skill points in missiles on that account but T2 small lasers... Now i'll have to train Rockets due to the lack of turret spots or fly a Crusader and lose one of my midslots. Guess i'll have to adapt blah blah. The Nos change is good IMO, but then i dont fly the NOS specific Amarr ships, maybe those ships and their bonus need looking at to keep them balanced. Instead of only Nos'ing with less cap than the target maybe give them a bonus so they can Nos so long as they are not above the targets cap level by a certain amount, eg with numbers picked out my backside.. You have 60% cap they have 50% and you can still Nos, once the difference is bigger you cannot Nos anymore.?
Corvin Demeter	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:16:00 - [488] When will MMO players realise that pointless nerfing will never go away until the MMO companies stop employing dev teams whose sole remit is ....'balancing'. Think about it...if your full-time occupation involved class balancing in Eve, would you ever tell the CEO "guess what boss...we did it... the races are now 'balanced'." It would be like a turkey voting for Christmas. Overall class balancing needs to be done when a game is in pre-launch beta. Additional balancing needs to be done when a new ship,mod or skill is developed...before it goes live. I guess what I am suggesting is that class balancing should primarily be a 'contract job'...if you employ full-time teams you get the full-time need for that team to justify its existence.
Dane Hur Caldari x13	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:16:00 - [489] Congrats to the 3 amarr pilots that have trained missilesskills.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:19:00 - [490] Originally by: Sailon Originally by: n0thing Originally by: Belial02 NOS nerf is just another whiners victory. There were counters to it, ppl just wouldnt use em. Its gonna gimp alot of ships horribly. Oh and its gonna boost the vaga even more btw Ah right. So, what are counters? Boosters that use huge charges? What about ships with 3 med slots? Gimp what? 6 nosf domies? I fly one, and I am not gimped. I just refit it and make it same, riskier, but same. theres module called remote sensor dampener it reduces locking range and locking time That'll take care of those nos snipers. RSD's are very useful against a lot of ships, but NOS domis aren't among them. They want to be up close and personal. I saw someone else mention ECM, but apparently he hasn't logged on since last October. In a gang an ecm-bonused ship can shut down a nos user, but if you're going to bring a blob to kill one guy it doesn't really matter. A lone multispec ECM against a domi or curse won't jam frequently enough to make a difference. It may allow you to disengage, but a domi should be bumping you and its damage is not impacted by ecm. There are currently two counters to nos - more nos, and an injector. If the opposing pilot is a fool, he won't stagger his nos and the injector will work. If he has the brain of a gnat, however, the injector will do you very little good. If you are quick, you can keep your tank going until you run out of charges, but no hardeners, point, mwd, web, cap-using guns, etc. Speed is only an effective counter insofar as it allows you to avoid fighting. In that sense, not undocking is also a counter. Half the people complaining about the nerf don't like it because nos currently counters speed, not the other way around. _____ CPU Love

Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:21:00 - [491] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/07/2007 13:22:04 Originally by: Inflexible It is perfectly ok if cruiser can not kill BS. Try killing geddon in falcon or rapier. A falcon and rapier are exellent gang ships. A pilgrim isn't. Its only real use is as solo hunter. Imagine how "good" the falcon and rapier would be if their ECM or webs would have an optimal range of 12k.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:22:00 - [492] Originally by: Corvin Demeter When will MMO players realise that pointless nerfing will never go away until the MMO companies stop employing dev teams whose sole remit is ....'balancing'. Think about it...if your full-time occupation involved class balancing in Eve, would you ever tell the CEO "guess what boss...we did it... the races are now 'balanced'." It would be like a turkey voting for Christmas. Overall class balancing needs to be done when a game is in pre-launch beta. Additional balancing needs to be done when a new ship,mod or skill is developed...before it goes live. I guess what I am suggesting is that class balancing should primarily be a 'contract job'...if you employ full-time teams you get the full-time need for that team to justify its existence. You've made my day ---
Rennard Aku Soku Zan	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:22:00 - [493] Your NOS nerf in next patch is completely unlogical. Among the possible nos nerfes: 1. Signature radius to nos. 2. Stacking nerf to nos. 3. Dropping NOS cap amounts. any of these were expected by community. But you have chosen a different path which will kill all NOS usage in game as well as specialized ships like Pilgrim, Curse, Ashimmu, Bhaalgorn. It is also unlogical for the fictional science of the game. How will you explain it by physics means? How come you come up with a good science description for NOS module? and how can people kill capitals now? It's nearly impossible. Don't tell me to use neutralizers, this is a NOS change, not a "use neutralizer" change. Good pvpers are already using neutralizers. Please do not bring this crap to tranquility and think of an alternative way that community offers you. Thank you.
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:24:00 - [494] Originally by: Rafein Originally by: egal069 I personaly think this is an excellent soultion to NOS, and that people are simply misunderstanding how it's going to work, the pilgrim/curse or anything that gets a nos bonus will not be hurt by this. I understand it to be, the person attacking can not drain the target beyond his cap lvl, so a curse could support it's mwd off a BS, untill the BS got to the same cap amount percent wise, meaning if your cap is holding at 1/3, than there's will be drained to 1/3 as well, and them running their tank to repair, will finish off their cap the rest of the way. Speaking as a amarr pilot, I'd rather finish my own cap off than let the other guy have it. As for the curse/pilgrim pilots, use one nuet and two or three nos, as your cap drops closer to 0%, the nos will replinsh your cap enough to make their bone dry. Just my 2cents. Actually, you would have to NOS a different target, cause if your Neuting an enemy, he is losing cap as well, so NOS still won't work Vs. him. As for Khandid MkII, just give them the bonus for all missiles of their size, and let them fit for the role they want. Forcing them into short range is not a cool idea, it cramps people's playstyles. The setup i suggested was in refernce to against a BS, where supporting your cap till there's is dead is quite easily done given the total amount diffence. Putting NOS on a secondary target would be usless, as odds are they are not primary and have 100% cap, and therefore you will get nothing, but if the the battleships cap is higher than yours, you will get what you need, and when you can't anymore , mission complete. Honestly if your cap can handle running a destab and micro-warp, the nos is just a bonus when it works.
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:27:00 - [495] Originally by: egal069 Originally by: Rafein Originally by: egal069 I personaly think this is an excellent soultion to NOS, and that people are simply misunderstanding how it's going to work, the pilgrim/curse or anything that gets a nos bonus will not be hurt by this. I understand it to be, the person attacking can not drain the target beyond his cap lvl, so a curse could support it's mwd off a BS, untill the BS got to the same cap amount percent wise, meaning if your cap is holding at 1/3, than there's will be drained to 1/3 as well, and them running their tank to repair, will finish off their cap the rest of the way. Speaking as a amarr pilot, I'd rather finish my own cap off than let the other guy have it. As for the curse/pilgrim pilots, use one nuet and two or three nos, as your cap drops closer to 0%, the nos will replinsh your cap enough to make their bone dry. Just my 2cents. Actually, you would have to NOS a different target, cause if your Neuting an enemy, he is losing cap as well, so NOS still won't work Vs. him. As for Khandid MkII, just give them the bonus for all missiles of their size, and let them fit for the role they want. Forcing them into short range is not a cool idea, it cramps people's playstyles. The setup i suggested was in refernce to against a BS, where supporting your cap till there's is dead is quite easily done given the total amount diffence. Putting NOS on a secondary target would be usless, as odds are they are not primary and have 100% cap, and therefore you will get nothing, but if the the battleships cap is higher than yours, you will get what you need, and when you can't anymore , mission complete. Honestly if your cap can handle running a destab and micro-warp, the nos is just a bonus when it works. I'm soooooo srry, this why one should get some sleep before reading forums, your 100% right, i'm 100% wrong. Brain no worky on no sleepy. Coffe FTW.
gogeta23	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:33:00 - [496] ccp what are you doing. STOP THE NERFING the nos is fine the way it is, it's not too powerful just because everyone can use this mod. You are effectively ruining any ship that requires cap to repair, this is a sad day for all armor tanks, please do not nerf the nos, I fly a Myrmidon, I love my Myrmidon, I get killed lot in my Myrmidon, but I might as well stop playing if I do not have nos the way it is now. Maybe I should have been Caldari
OneSock Silentia Mortalis	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:35:00 - [497] Have to say this Nos change makes no sense to me. NOS isn't really what is the killer. The killer is running out of cap and not being able to run a tank. To this end, Neuts do exactly the same job. So we all switch to Neut setups and things are as they were before (more or less). Just means to use Neuts you need to start off with a bigger cap then you opponent/have better regen/boosting. If you'd nerf neuts too it would make a bit of sense. What concerns me now is whether cap dependant armor tanks are at a serious disadvantage.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:39:00 - [498] Originally by: anillation This will really kill a lot of gallente setups. My myrm, brutix, domi, thorax all use 1-2 nos to keep the blasters going. Most of those ships I use a dual rep and no plate so cap is crucial. With this change in nos I wouldn't be able to keep my cap going to run the rep. Gallente suck cap wise as is, even with nos I still carry a few cap charges just in case. Also that would really hurt the EOS since you basically wait for your opponents cap to run before yours does. I think this will seriously damp a lot of gallente ship setups. Thats like saying lets nerf blasters so if they can only get the targets ship armor down to what your ships amor is at. The other thing I could see this seriously affecting amarr ships like the armageddon. They must have nos to run the guns and still use cap charges so they can run heavy hitting guns. I know if this nerf happens I will need to train for minmatar so I can have a nice setup for pvp. Damn some of you guys really must be stupid beyond belief! Warning: sorry about the caps THIS IS A BOOST TO SHIPS THAT ARE NOT CAP STABLE WITHOUT HELP! If you need a nos in your current setup to keep your modules going, then this change won't affect you very much. Infact it will help you because your enemies won't be able to nos you dry UNLESS they spend more cap than you! Warning: sorry about the caps again THIS CHANGE IS ONLY A NERF TO THOSE SHIPS WHO RELIED ON NOS TO KILL THE ENEMIES CAP!
Brominder	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:50:00 - [499] CCP, ARE YOU INSANE? The community asks for a minor Amarr buff and you in effect NERF half the ships! Curse and Pilgrim are completely screwed by this change. Solo kills are out the window with the nos changes. These ships need either immunity from the nos change or some other significant bonus. Secondly, the khanid changes are stupid. Missiles? Missiles?!? The problem with Amarr ships was damage per second, and you want to fix this by making them all missile boats? There's a race for that, it's called Caldari, AND THEY SUCK AT DPS TOO. I have an idea, let's kill the Damnation by killing it's grid, yeah, that'll be a hoot. Oh, and let's force all the Amarr pilots to train three months of missile skills to use half their ships again. This is the WORST fix I've ever seen from CCP. It doesn't resolve any of the problems with existing Amarr ships and ruins the Curse/Pilgrim, the only ships that worked under current rules. If you believe these changes "fix" Amarr, you are an idiot.
Soulbound Bob Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:54:00 - [500] Originally by: Soulbound Bob Energy neutralizers. This is a welcome change. Stacking, sig radius, and special NOS hardpoints are NOT ever going to work. Thank you and bless you CCP for originally not making any such dumb factors to NOS and dont ever listen to these whines to ever implement something so dumb. You must understand that anyone asking you to give money to get money is scamming you one way or another.

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:54:00 - [501] Originally by: Brominder CCP, ARE YOU INSANE? The community asks for a minor Amarr buff and you in effect NERF half the ships! Curse and Pilgrim are completely screwed by this change. Solo kills are out the window with the nos changes. These ships need either immunity from the nos change or some other significant bonus. Secondly, the khanid changes are stupid. Missiles? Missiles?!? The problem with Amarr ships was damage per second, and you want to fix this by making them all missile boats? There's a race for that, it's called Caldari, AND THEY SUCK AT DPS TOO. I have an idea, let's kill the Damnation by killing it's grid, yeah, that'll be a hoot. Oh, and let's force all the Amarr pilots to train three months of missile skills to use half their ships again. This is the WORST fix I've ever seen from CCP. It doesn't resolve any of the problems with existing Amarr ships and ruins the Curse/Pilgrim, the only ships that worked under current rules. If you believe these changes "fix" Amarr, you are an idiot. Please turn on your brain before posting again. Thank you. P.S.- Can I have your stuff?
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:54:00 - [502] Suggestion for how to nerf the nos using the same basic method, but not making it completely useless : Instead of a flat out change from 100% to 0% effectiveness when the cap is the same, you could make it depend on the amount of cap left in the target ship (100% left = 100% drained, 10% left = 10% drained). Another method would be to use the difference in cap amounts to calculate the final cap drainage. If the nossing ship is at 50% cap, and the nossed ship is at 25%, the cap taken would be 50% of what the nos is capable of stealing. Also, the nos should not try to fill the cap of the nossing ship beyond 100% (so if the cap of the nossing ship needs 10 more cap to fill it, and the nos can drain 20 cap, it'll still only take 10). The numbers might have to be tweaked but you should be able to understand the general idea. 2007-07-19 20:26
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:56:00 - [503] Quote: Since when was a cruiser supposed to be able to solo a battleship anyway? Nos the battleship down to 40% then use neut to break his tank finally. Or use a Cap Booster, or nos one of his mates instead, or or or, ADAPT. look at any modern cruiser compared to any battleship still afloat in use by any navy in the world today. tech2 cruisers are the equivalent of modern naval cruisers today. they are expensive, require lots of skills to use and are very dangerous. don't tell me that investing 10m SP in a toon to fly tech 2 ships is any comparison to the 14 day go rat in a battleship toon. in reference to the post above - any ship that relies on nos to kill is nerfed...exactly. hello pilgrim, hello curse, hello baalg. //sometimes less is more...zero
Drykor Minmatar Warriors of the Einherjar Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:02:00 - [504] I don't know if this has been said already, but won't this make energy neuts way overpowered? Heavy neuts have a range of 25.5 km, and will totally drain a frigate in 1 cycle. This fix won't change anything to small ship combat and it could very well be the death of cruiser sized ships fighting battleships. Take for example the vagabond which will be out of cap after getting hit by 2 cycles of 1 heavy neut. After that you mwd up to it and start taking it down. Now I know this was possible before, but there was no good reason to fit a neutralizer before, while after patch everyone will have at least 1. I really approve of a nos nerf but consider doing it in a different way like stacking penalty or sig radius modifier. At least do that for neuts if you don't do that for nos, or they will quickly become the new flavour of the month, and this whole nos nerf thing won't do anything to prolong combat.
Voltaeis Gemini	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:10:00 - [505] Agree with the overwhelming majority of posters this NOS nerf is quite possible the most ill considered peice of mal administration i have seen in MMO.. The "fix" lacks vison, creativity and any sensability. Even this topic with 9 pages of responses is hidden away in a thread called information portal where only a few players will find it.. Many threads now exist on this topic and the overwhelmingly opinion expressed by majority of posters is the NOS nerf is extreme to say the least. The implications for Gallentae and Amarr players are massive.. the curse and pilgrim are next to useless now.. the cap intensive Gallentae blaster vessels will melt in both PVP and PVE.. NOS even under the existing framework is not a win button, it limitations are many the range is short, a nos fitting has a large impact on DPS and is easily avoided by fast vessels, ranged combatants and cap boosters. There have been many player whining in the past petitioning for a nerf and it would appear that rather than displaying a backbone and standing firm on the current frame work u have caved. TBH i am absoloutly flabbergasted with the response of CCP to the NOS issue.. Not sure i can bring myself to say more given all these replies and no ccp response to any concerns appears to be falling on deaf ears.. Its not too late too change your mind.. Wasthere ever a worse idea?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:10:00 - [506] Originally by: zero2espect Quote: Since when was a cruiser supposed to be able to solo a battleship anyway? Nos the battleship down to 40% then use neut to break his tank finally. Or use a Cap Booster, or nos one of his mates instead, or or or, ADAPT. look at any modern cruiser compared to any battleship still afloat in use by any navy in the world today. tech2 cruisers are the equivalent of modern naval cruisers today. they are expensive, require lots of skills to use and are very dangerous. don't tell me that investing 10m SP in a toon to fly tech 2 ships is any comparison to the 14 day go rat in a battleship toon. in reference to the post above - any ship that relies on nos to kill is nerfed...exactly. hello pilgrim, hello curse, hello baalg. Using real world scenarios to prove a point in a fictional game is stupid. Dont tell me that a BS specialist can't handle himself against a T2 Cruiser. Comparing a newb battleship to an experienced T2 cruiser is comparing apples and pears. ============================================
Corvin Demeter	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:12:00 - [507] To follow up my previous post... 1. Why were the implications of Nos/Neut not fully thought through before they went live? 2. Why have the Amarr been left hanging out to dry for so long? 3. Why have Gallente/Minmatar ships been allowed to assume the ascendancy in PvP for so long. 4. Why are Caldari ships so slow and ugly. Balancing team...we want answers...please.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:13:00 - [508] Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini Agree with the overwhelming majority of posters this NOS nerf is quite possible the most ill considered peice of mal administration i have seen in MMO.. The "fix" lacks vison, creativity and any sensability. Even this topic with 9 pages of responses is hidden away in a thread called information portal where only a few players will find it.. Many threads now exist on this topic and the overwhelmingly opinion expressed by majority of posters is the NOS nerf is extreme to say the least. The implications for Gallentae and Amarr players are massive.. the curse and pilgrim are next to useless now.. the cap intensive Gallentae blaster vessels will melt in both PVP and PVE.. NOS even under the existing framework is not a win button, it limitations are many the range is short, a nos fitting has a large impact on DPS and is easily avoided by fast vessels, ranged combatants and cap boosters. There have been many player whining in the past petitioning for a nerf and it would appear that rather than displaying a backbone and standing firm on the current frame work u have caved. TBH i am absoloutly flabbergasted with the response of CCP to the NOS issue.. Not sure i can bring myself to say more given all these replies and no ccp response to any concerns appears to be falling on deaf ears.. Its not too late too change your mind.. Wasthere ever a worse idea? Another very interesting post on why the ppl fighting against the nos nerf don't even engage their brain before spewing this kin of garbage on the forums. See the wholle thread for the reasons why you are wrong on everything that you wrote...
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:16:00 - [509] Originally by: Corvin Demeter To follow up my previous post... 1. Why were the implications of Nos/Neut not fully thought through before they went live? 2. Why have the Amarr been left hanging out to dry for so long? 3. Why have Gallente/Minmatar ships been allowed to assume the ascendancy in PvP for so long. 4. Why are Caldari ships so slow and ugly. Balancing team...we want answers...please. I'll answer these for them: 1. What implications are your really talking about? This question makes no sence. 2. This nos nerf is a boost to amarr pulse laser ships so stfu. 3. What type of PVP are you talking about? 1v1 PVP, yes, Gallente are kings there, small scale and fleet PVP... not so much so your point is not valid. 4. Because they are supposed to be like that. Now do you have any more absurd questions?
Sky'stale	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:17:00 - [510] All recon ships have the same attributes (regarding range, ej, lachesis-arazu, rapier-huging) , except the amarr. I could understand that, since Curse with covert ops cloak would be even more powerfull than it already is... But now? Pilgrim should at least have the same range bonuses. my 2 cents...

egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:20:00 - [511] Ok, i hate the forums, no offense, but i'm on dial-up so it's make it difficut. This NOS change will benfeit every amarr ship, because they will no longer be able to be striped by a group of nos. As for the curse and pilgrim, it will still be just as effective, you just need to learn to read. As for everyone complaining about all there gunnery skills, these changes arn't really to the guns boat side of things, had they wanted to turn the absolution into a missle boat, or the zealot, crusader and such, than yes, your gunnery would be wasted. The only issue i can see with this, is that it's limited to short range missles. Forcing all those ships to get up close and personal where someone may want to acutally sit far away and use warfare mods and Beam lazers on their damnation like i do. I fully expect CCP to do whatever BoB tells them to, wish i could get some freinds like that on my MSN. So i'm voicing my opions, not epecting it make a lick of difference, but at least i can say i said something about it. Lastly, I followed the directions on how to patch for the test server, all i'm getting is "unable to connect to 87.237.38.50 on port 26000" can anyone help me here, did they change there minds already or something, or just having their usaly issues?
IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:21:00 - [512] Edited by: IPyric on 31/07/2007 14:24:02 can caldari ships get some lasers too :P maybe a new wepon type for amarr ? perhaps ballista or trebuchetes
Voltaeis Gemini	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:22:00 - [513] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini Agree with the overwhelming majority of posters this NOS nerf is quite possible the most ill considered peice of mal administration i have seen in MMO.. The "fix" lacks vison, creativity and any sensability. Even this topic with 9 pages of responses is hidden away in a thread called information portal where only a few players will find it.. Many threads now exist on this topic and the overwhelmingly opinion expressed by majority of posters is the NOS nerf is extreme to say the least. The implications for Gallentae and Amarr players are massive.. the curse and pilgrim are next to useless now.. the cap intensive Gallentae blaster vessels will melt in both PVP and PVE.. NOS even under the existing framework is not a win button, it limitations are many the range is short, a nos fitting has a large impact on DPS and is easily avoided by fast vessels, ranged combatants and cap boosters. There have been many player whining in the past petitioning for a nerf and it would appear that rather than displaying a backbone and standing firm on the current frame work u have caved. TBH i am absoloutly flabbergasted with the response of CCP to the NOS issue.. Not sure i can bring myself to say more given all these replies and no ccp response to any concerns appears to be falling on deaf ears.. Its not too late too change your mind.. Wasthere ever a worse idea? Another very interesting post on why the ppl fighting against the nos nerf don't even engage their brain before spewing this kin of garbage on the forums. See the wholle thread for the reasons why you are wrong on everything that you wrote... I have read it and your point is?? Simply put i am responding to the invitation to submit my thoughts.. so pull your head in flame merchant and disengage your brain for a bit.. looks like its been running online cause u make no point whatsoever with garbage replies like the trash u used to comment on my feedback to the creators of this abomination.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:23:00 - [514] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 31/07/2007 13:22:04 Originally by: Inflexible It is perfectly ok if cruiser can not kill BS. Try killing geddon in falcon or rapier. A falcon and rapier are exellent gang ships. A pilgrim isn't. Its only real use is as solo hunter. Imagine how "good" the falcon and rapier would be if their ECM or webs would have an optimal range of 12k. I think you underestimate the usefulness of tracking disruptors, especially against Amarr and Gallente ships. TD on most AC ships will also force them to slow down or stop doing damage, and slow AC ship tends to be dead AC ship. Nos/neut is also far less useful in gangs than solo because the people not getting nossed/neuted to death can shoot back. _____ CPU Love
IPyric	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:26:00 - [515] Originally by: IPyric Edited by: IPyric on 31/07/2007 14:24:02 can caldari ships get some lasers too :P maybe a new wepon type for amarr ? perhaps ballista or trebuchetes yeah Ballista for close range and trebuchetes for long range on the khanid
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:29:00 - [516] Edited by: N1fty on 31/07/2007 14:29:11 Originally by: IPyric Originally by: IPyric Edited by: IPyric on 31/07/2007 14:24:02 can caldari ships get some lasers too :P maybe a new wepon type for amarr ? perhaps ballista or trebuchetes yeah Ballista for close range and trebuchetes for long range on the khanid Talking to yourself Caldari dont need Lasers, they have Hybrids as their 2nd weapon. Now Amarr have a secondary as well. ============================================
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:32:00 - [517] Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini Agree with the overwhelming majority of posters this NOS nerf is quite possible the most ill considered peice of mal administration i have seen in MMO.. The "fix" lacks vison, creativity and any sensability. Even this topic with 9 pages of responses is hidden away in a thread called information portal where only a few players will find it.. Many threads now exist on this topic and the overwhelmingly opinion expressed by majority of posters is the NOS nerf is extreme to say the least. The implications for Gallentae and Amarr players are massive.. the curse and pilgrim are next to useless now.. the cap intensive Gallentae blaster vessels will melt in both PVP and PVE.. NOS even under the existing framework is not a win button, it limitations are many the range is short, a nos fitting has a large impact on DPS and is easily avoided by fast vessels, ranged combatants and cap boosters. There have been many player whining in the past petitioning for a nerf and it would appear that rather than displaying a backbone and standing firm on the current frame work u have caved. TBH i am absoloutly flabbergasted with the response of CCP to the NOS issue.. Not sure i can bring myself to say more given all these replies and no ccp response to any concerns appears to be falling on deaf ears.. Its not too late too change your mind.. Wasthere ever a worse idea? Another very interesting post on why the ppl fighting against the nos nerf don't even engage their brain before spewing this kin of garbage on the forums. See the wholle thread for the reasons why you are wrong on everything that you wrote... I have read it and your point is?? Simply put i am responding to the invitation to submit my thoughts.. so pull your head in flame merchant and disengage your brain for a bit.. looks like its been running online cause u make no point whatsoever with garbage replies like the trash u used to comment on my feedback to the creators of this abomination. Are they? So care to elaborate on how exactly this is a nerf to Amarr laser ships instead of a buff? Or on how your pathetic whining isn't based on any actual evidence, beeing on TQ or Sisi? Let me elaborate using a few of your "pearls" as an example: - "The implications for Gallentae and Amarr players are massive.. ": Yes they are, this is a pretty good boost for their weapon using ships. Nos will still be able to be used as a suplement to your cap when you are using more cap than your enemy, wich laser and blaster boats usually do. Appart from this, these changes effectivelly PREVENT you from beeing nossed dry by your opponent. - "NOS even under the existing framework is not a win button, it limitations are many the range is short, ": Really?! And what limitations are those? Before these changes it effectivelly killed your opponents active tank and gank whille giving you the means to increase yours... Where exactly do you see a limitation here? And limited range?!?! A BS sized nos has a 25km+ range, thats alot more than the short range BS weapons have! Every other word in your post isn't even worth mentioning or discussing so again I renew my advice to put your brain in the ON position before posting, or at least to actually know what you're talking about before making a fool of yourself...
IlluminatedOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:36:00 - [518] What saddens me most is the absence of any developer response/reply in any anti-NOS/anti-nerf topic. Is Fendahl/Oveur/whoever are so scared to meet players face-to-face? (not so, but you understand what I mean...)
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:38:00 - [519] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/07/2007 14:42:13 Originally by: Santa Anna ~4:1 cap ratio, ~3:1 neut ratio => neut then nos works. BS has 36 cap, curse has 9 ==neut== BS has 33 (92%), curse has 8 (89%) ==> curse can nos Please show me where I said otherwise? You are missing the point. In order to get a targets cap below optimal recharge the curse needs to get below its own optimal recharge too. If you want to bring it at zero cap you will be near zero cap too. Quote: If you can't break someone's tank from 20% cap when they can't fight back (damps), you shouldn't complain about not being able to kill them. WTB cap boost for the amarr recons so the can sustain EW and scram with 20% cap. Guess what, they cannot, even with max skills. Quote: The Curse isn't an AFK Iwin machine with this change, but you should still be able to solo any turret BS, any non-passive turret Cruiser/BC, any frigate/destroyer, and any torp BS. Cruise BS may be doable too, unless they packed FOF cruise. It can only kill BCs and BSs if either it has an injector and it's target hasn't or if its target peack recharge cannot fuel it's tank (which is actually relatively likely). It cannot get the target below peak recharge because it needs its own peak recharge to fuel EW and scram. Note that I am not saying this makes the curse underpowered. It will be weaker, but it was frankly too strong 1v1 before. The pilgrim is another matter though. Quote: The other Force Recons work well in gangs b/c their damage tends to be worse and the cloak allows them to avoid being primary, secondary, or tertiary. Why wouldn't the pilgrim be similarly useful? One word: range. How useful would the rapier be if it would get a web efficieny bonus but no web range bonus? 95% webs at 10k range. Yay. Thats what the pilgrim is. If they would switch the nos strength bonus with the nos range bonus the pilgrim would be useful in gangs, without it is a force recon which cannot use its t2 bonus efficiently exept soloing. Because it's "great tank" can barely tank another cruiser, it simply cannot allow itself to get close vs another ship of a gang. Originally by: Santa Anna I think you underestimate the usefulness of tracking disruptors,... TDs are only half of it's bonus. Has a rapier only a painter bonus? Has the arazu only a dampener bonus? And I think you are wildely overestimating the efficiency of TDs. Have you hever used them? I did. They work okayish vs large guns, but if you think they will stop a medium AC or blaster ships from hitting you you are in for a rude awakening.
Iog Krugar The Rising Stars Dark Horizon Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:38:00 - [520] what amuses me most about this is how Unstable Power Fluctuator prices just skyrocketed --- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods

Conmen Jell-O	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:42:00 - [521] Ok this is crazy, yah I know everyone is stroking the devs for the new changes. OK lets think about this we are taking a race of laser fireing, armor tanking group, and we want to mix that with a shield tanking missle boat race. Ok whats the strengths and weakness of caldari and amarr. Amarr Strengths - High raw DPS on beams weapons, great armor tanks, great cap, High power grid. Amarr Weakness - Low cpu, lack of mids, small drone bay. Caldari Strengths - The strongest tanks in the game, high cpu, vary damage, Caldari Weakness - lack of lows, HORRIBLE DPS, low cap, low grid. Now lets take some of the good some of the bad and come up with something that does not step on the toes of caldari or any other races and isnt ridclously overpowered. Ok first off every race has its primary weapons play a massive role in it ship design why change that now? Laser ok they eat up cap the reduction places them inline however with hybrids so not too bad. High dps is well worth the cap if the ship has cap to spare. Shield tanking eats up cap also need decent cpu to run it but provides you with the strongest tank in the game lets see what bonus and ship configurations we would need to make this work. The cap recharge bonus would fit into this role perfectly cap extensive ships works perfectly. Sacrilege 5Xturret 2xmissles 6 mids (maybe only 5 mids) 3 lows (maybe 4 lows) Bonus -10% reduction to cap medium lasers Amarr cruiser skill 5% bonus to shield resistance Amarr cruiser skill 5% bonus to medium beams damage 5% bonus to cap recharge rate Damnation 8 highs 5 turrets 3 missles 6mids 4lows same bonus I will leave the rest to the CCP gods and hope that it gets resolved This proposed idea is taking into account that ccp want khanid to have the best tanks and its also a way for amarr to keep their primary weapons but still do the hybrid thing with haveing the ships actually able to shield tank
Zikka The Establishment	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:44:00 - [522] The new HAC looks very nice, I'm gonna train Amarr cruiser 5 for sure. The new Command ship though will actually do less damage than the HAC (5 launchers, 1 bonus vs 5 launchers, 2 bonuses). I really think the damnation could use some loving, as currently it really does seem very weak.
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:47:00 - [523] Originally by: Conmen Sacrilege 5Xturret 2xmissles 6 mids (maybe only 5 mids) 3 lows (maybe 4 lows) Bonus -10% reduction to cap medium lasers Amarr cruiser skill 5% bonus to shield resistance Amarr cruiser skill 5% bonus to medium beams damage 5% bonus to cap recharge rate 5x gun mwd, injector, 3x damp, scram 2x heatsink, 1x overdrive (or just 3x od) 2x polys Here ya go - another no-brainer sac you really want. Keep at 20km, blast everything with lasers coz noone can kill you anyways. If youy give midslots they WILL NOT be used to shieldtank in PVP. Period. Only ships that use shieldtank in pvp are minmatar ones (because of nice base resist + shield boost bonus + no need to use web for most of em) and some caldari (commands, drake, raven). Even Cerb is better with damp midslots than shieldtank fyi. So are all recons. So is raven lately and so is damp-drake.
John Quicksilver Caldari The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:48:00 - [524] WTS curse + Pilgrim :( ___________________________
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:48:00 - [525] Perhaps your tracking distruptor skills suck, or you don't acount for falloff and sit still. I personally use two and don't stop moving, no gun boat can hit me, even without and a/b or mwd. ANYWAYS, what's up witht sisi, i want try these things out and see if they are any good, i can think about it all i want, and talk about it even more, but untill i can fly them, i can't judge them. I got the patches, i followed the directions, anyone, anyone at all>??????
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:50:00 - [526] Originally by: John Quicksilver WTS curse + Pilgrim :( Evemail me and I'll buy them of you, or just contract them to me: 100 mill for both.
YA MAM	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:52:00 - [527] WTF, so by doing this, you remove nos ships out of the game. so which member of bob( which is also a dev) got poped by a nos domi in low sec. y dont you just say you carnt your missile if your target is looking at at asteroid while hopping on one foot. co it makes more sense. i would have prefered you to thnk of your cap as battery, and once its full you can longer fit any more in. so your nos would stop.
Alrione Amarr Black Lagoon Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:56:00 - [528] Originally by: Rennard Your NOS nerf in next patch is completely unlogical. Among the possible nos nerfes: 1. Signature radius to nos. 2. Stacking nerf to nos. 3. Dropping NOS cap amounts. any of these were expected by community. But you have chosen a different path which will kill all NOS usage in game as well as specialized ships like Pilgrim, Curse, Ashimmu, Bhaalgorn. It is also unlogical for the fictional science of the game. How will you explain it by physics means? How come you come up with a good science description for NOS module? and how can people kill capitals now? It's nearly impossible. Don't tell me to use neutralizers, this is a NOS change, not a "use neutralizer" change. Good pvpers are already using neutralizers. Please do not bring this crap to tranquility and think of an alternative way that community offers you. Thank you. Completely agreed. NOS needs rebalancing, but currently new patch just rendering it useless. --------------------------------
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:56:00 - [529] To all you whiners of NOS changes, IT"S CALLED SUPPLY AND DEMAND, if you don't need it, you don't get it. Which is fair, if you had 100%cap, where would the leeched energy go? NOWHERE, so why should it be any different at 80% or 20%, if you got more cap than them, you obviously don't need it. being getting the same dman error for sisi for two hours now, can anyone help me out here, i'm impatient and want to test these out.
Dr Wellesley Burden of Mars	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:01:00 - [530] I don't... understand. Was this some effort to get rid of the dev=BoB hullabaloo by proving that you guys don't even play the game and thus have no idea about the changes you're making, or is it a joke? You've completely nerfed Amarr and made Nos useless. There are people in this thread who by all counts should be being paid by CCP to advise them on this sort of change. Exactly who do you have working there, coming up with these recent changes. The carrier nerf was completely whack, and this is just... I mean, it truly confounds me. Surely you don't need to put these changes on the test server to know that they are dumb. The person who thought this change up is going to burn in a very special level of hell - one reserved for child molesters and people who talk at the theatre. Seriously. What? //--< We like trees. We like trees. They're so green and ... BRANCHY!

Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:11:00 - [531] Originally by: The Amarrien WTF!! They turning all my amarr ships into rocket ship! i have 0 SP in missiles. Brilliant job Maybe all of your specific ships you own... the Zealot, the Absolution, the Crusader, and the Retribution are all untouched and are still the same exact laser boats they were before.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:17:00 - [532] Quote: Please show me where I said otherwise? You are missing the point. In order to get a targets cap below optimal recharge the curse needs to get below its own optimal recharge too. If you want to bring it at zero cap you will be near zero cap too. If you neut the BS when you are both near your optimal recharge, then nos him, he will be below his optimal, you will be above yours. If you want him to have no cap, you must cap out or use injector+neut. You can still cap anyone out, you just may not be able to do it to everyone with the same uncounterable setup. Someone upthread took a Claymore and an Abaddon 2:1 on Sisi with the changes, so the Curse can't be that bad. Quote: WTB cap boost for the amarr recons so the can sustain EW and scram with 20% cap. Guess what, they cannot, even with max skills. Neut, then nos. You'd have more than 20% cap. Quote: It can only kill BCs and BSs if either it has an injector and it's target hasn't or if its target peack recharge cannot fuel it's tank (which is actually relatively likely). When the curse injects an 800 charge (say) it can neutralize 3 800 charges with that energy. The target is also presumably using energy from its injector, so if you both have injectors it's a war of attrition. If your target ship has a cargo bay smaller than 1035 or so, you should have a pretty good shot. Most of my active tank pvp fits use unsustainable rep + cap inject. I don't think I fly a ship that a well-piloted curse couldn't kill with the right setup, even after the nerf. Quote: One word: range. How useful would the rapier be if it would get a web efficieny bonus but no web range bonus? 95% webs at 10k range. Yay. IMO the TD bonus is more important than the nos bonus for gang work. Disabling 3 turret BS does more for my gang than capping out 1. If I take fire, I can always move into nos range of one and nos to run my tank, even after the change. The covops cloak is important in this, as it prevents you from being primaried without killing your lock time. Force recons are often overlooked after they decloak (at least in my experience) unless your gang gets pulverized. A nos/neut range bonus would be better than the amount bonus for gang work, but I think it'd make it incredibly powerful for solo. Maybe with the nos nerf in its current form swapping the bonus wouldn't be as overpowered for solo. 2x nos, 1x neut from 24 km with 2 damps may be able to get any BS under peak recharge over time. You might have trouble getting everything to fit and still having a tank, though. _____ CPU Love
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:18:00 - [533] Originally by: Conmen Originally by: egal069 To all you whiners of NOS changes, IT"S CALLED SUPPLY AND DEMAND, if you don't need it, you don't get it. Which is fair, if you had 100%cap, where would the leeched energy go? NOWHERE, so why should it be any different at 80% or 20%, if you got more cap than them, you obviously don't need it. being getting the same dman error for sisi for two hours now, can anyone help me out here, i'm impatient and want to test these out. Refer to the post just before this one, about my rambling about NOS becoming purly defensive leaving energy nuets as the only offensive means to kill cap, and i do use NOS, i just don't fit a rack of it, that's p$%^y s%&t. wow this is econ class didnt know that its a damn module you are seriously wow get help IF YOU HAVE MORE CAP THEN THEM YOU DO NOT NEED IT... um you fit nos to drain the enemies cap and keep your up... yah wow have you even fit nos?
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:19:00 - [534] oppps.....that sprta went out of order, no sleep FTL, srry about that.
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:21:00 - [535] Bottom line is that the NOS changes gimped 3 overpowered, overused ship setups (Curse, Pilgrim, NOSdomi) while boosting pretty much every other ship setup in the game that formerly got owned by those 3. In one case, the Vagabond, the boost from removing NOS may be too much, but the Vaga had other problems--before you can energy drain a Vaga you have to get close enough to use the NOS, which is its own unrelated issue. Someone said in an earlier post that the NOS changes have nerfed the "flagships" of Amarr. The fact that the Curse/Pilgrim were the best Amarr ships is sad. Shouldn't Amarr BSes, BCs, and HACs have a role? Now that NOS has been weakened these bread and butter Amarr ships actually have a chance to do something useful. Note that Amarr gunships with cap problems actually have more of a reason to fit NOS now. If they activate their 1-2 NOS while low on cap, they can bring their opponent down to a cap level where the enemy's tank becomes unsustainable.
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:22:00 - [536] Refer to the post just before this one, about my rambling about NOS becoming purly defensive leaving energy nuets as the only offensive means to kill cap, and i do use NOS, i just don't fit a rack of it, that's p$%^y s%&t. (that's my reply) now anyone know what's up with sisi, they redoing the patchs now or something, i thought it was supposed to be
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:26:00 - [537] Edited by: egal069 on 31/07/2007 15:26:57 I have found with the right skills, the absolution is by far the most devastaing amarr ship. It's biggest issue was people using a ton of NOS, this would finally give it a decent shot agian. And for those complaining about wasted gunnery, buy one, it will not be wasted.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:29:00 - [538] Originally by: egal069 (that's my reply) now anyone know what's up with sisi, they redoing the patchs now or something, i thought it was supposed to be This may be a stupid proposal but: you did remember to install a fresh client for Sisi didn't you? I'm at work so I have no way to check if it actually working right now or not.
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:29:00 - [539] I don't get all this whining about having to train missiles. They're only medium size weapons, that's maybe 3 weeks of training time to get to T2 with decent missile support skills in another week or two. You have more than enough time to train up missiles before these changes are patched into Tranquility. And if you don't want to train missiles, just fly the other Amarr ships. Congratulations, thanks to NOS nerf they can actually kill **** now.
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:31:00 - [540] Edited by: Haradgrim on 31/07/2007 15:32:12 I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? Edit: I mean aside from the fact that the only thing that this "nerfs" is Nos ships ability to PWN amarr cap eating ships, which was a stupid advantage in the first place....... - Haradgrim [-WB-] That.which.does.not.bend.breaks

Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:32:00 - [541] Originally by: gogeta23 ccp what are you doing. STOP THE NERFING the nos is fine the way it is, it's not too powerful just because everyone can use this mod. You are effectively ruining any ship that requires cap to repair, this is a sad day for all armor tanks, please do not nerf the nos, I fly a Myrmidon, I love my Myrmidon, I get killed lot in my Myrmidon, but I might as well stop playing if I do not have nos the way it is now. Maybe I should have been Caldari Maybe you should try fitting some guns to your Myrmidon ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:32:00 - [542] So what is to keep the non-cap dependent ships (i.e. Minmitar) from fitting a neut or two and bringing the Amarr ship down and the Amarr ship can not NOS because the Minmitar ship has a lower cap and the Amarr ship still dies because the Minmitar ship can get cap all the way down and still shoot and now the Amarr cap is down and the cap runs out completely because lasers suck up the rest. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:32:00 - [543] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: egal069 (that's my reply) now anyone know what's up with sisi, they redoing the patchs now or something, i thought it was supposed to be This may be a stupid proposal but: you did remember to install a fresh client for Sisi didn't you? I'm at work so I have no way to check if it actually working right now or not. Oh, i'll have to go find that link again, i could of sworn it said to patch off the current live version, and than download a second patch and update both manually, as the automatic one was not working right.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:34:00 - [544] Originally by: Rennard It is also unlogical for the fictional science of the game. How will you explain it by physics means? How come you come up with a good science description for NOS module? Don't even try bringing physics into this, especially with the 'explosive damage' 'thermal damage' 'kinetic damage' and 'EM damage' nonsense... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Hamcraft	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:34:00 - [545] Edited by: Hamcraft on 31/07/2007 15:41:29 Edited by: Hamcraft on 31/07/2007 15:37:42 Okay, no comment on the nos stuff. but for all of you Amarrians who are complaining about heavy assaults, I am here to try and brighten your day, well more specifically for the Sacrilege. I fly Drakes with HAMs all the time, and I get oodles of kills. When Caldari get damage bonuses it is usually only to kinetic damage. Half the time, kinetic is not the damage type to use. In missile combat, you compensate for the lower overall DPS of missiles with the flexibility of choosing your own damage types. With my HAM Drake setup, I can and have done nothing but MURDER to all longer range Drake setups, because I am able to get in close and out-damage them using the correct damage type. I have to sacrifice my tank down to three midslots because of tackling. Powergrid is also a big problem for passive tank HAM Caldari pilots (2/4 of my lows have to be RCU's). Finally, the fact that I get 25% extra damage to only my Terror missiles screws with the split-second decision-making I have to make as to which missiles I am going to use before I engage. If I choose the wrong damage type, I die, and often times I have chosen fulmination when it turned out that just keeping the Terrors would've brought more damage, or vice-versa. With the new Sacrilege, you are looking at a ship that does slightly more damage than the Cerberus in kinetic (becuase you have a drone bay), and oodles more damage in every other damage type. A ship built with the powergrid for HAMs. And a heavy armor tank with 4 free midslots, where you have ample fitting for tackling, ewar and perhaps a cap injector. You have the agility and speed of a cruiser. You don't need range, you can go in and out-tank the enemy while taking full advantage of their resistance gap, whatever it may be. What I am trying to do here is show you the beauty of the new Sacrilege. Yes, you have to get in close, that means no pansy nano plus ewar setups. Who cares? It's easy to get in close. Yes, here I am solo PVPing in a Caldari battlecruiser with no cap injector and I am saying it is easy to get in close for the HAMS. Just remember to fit a 90% webber. You have the ability with this new sacrilege to out tank the enemy and use heavy assault missiles to their complete and full advantage. I am seriously considering training for a Sacrilege for when these changes come out. Missile combat is all about damage types--I would rather have a bonus to just heavy assaults in general than restricting to a single damage type for all missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles are the bomb, you just have to fly smart and give them a chance. Besides, getting down and dirty, up-close and personal is, imho, the most intense and thus genuinely fun way to PVP.
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:35:00 - [546] Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:36:00 - [547] Nos was like the flipping perfect storm or something and now is strictly defensive and not "a perfect module". That's good. Neuts are offensive and have a pretty cool role. Also Good. Khanid ships are very clearly defined and the Sacrilage is one insane murderous HAC now. Also Good. I am happy. A lot of people are whining that their stuff is broken, my stuff however has been boosted. Excellent
Ace Frehley Minmatar Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:38:00 - [548] Edited by: Ace Frehley on 31/07/2007 15:38:38 IF WE WHO FLIES AMARR GETS ROCKET BONUS I DEMAND THAT GALLENTE ONLY GETS BLASTERBONUS, CALDARI RAILBONUS AND US MINMATAR AC OR HOWIZTER BONUSES ON SOME OF THEIR SHIPS!! Can¦t just make some ships fitting to obvius... Drop the crap you smokin, Fix the damnation bonus to some usefull all launcherbonuses, the other ships i dont care about, keepin anyway out of webrange and just tackle, the shortrange weapons wont reach anyway so =P Btw, how will the damntaion dronebay be? We need some sort of longrange defence like the gallente shortranged blaster/nos droneships who just spit out drones to get longer range...
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:38:00 - [549] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Nos was like the flipping perfect storm or something and now is strictly defensive and not "a perfect module". That's good. Neuts are offensive and have a pretty cool role. Also Good. Khanid ships are very clearly defined and the Sacrilage is one insane murderous HAC now. Also Good. I am happy. A lot of people are whining that their stuff is broken, my stuff however has been boosted. Excellent Everyone's stuff has been boosted except cookie cutter NOSdomi pilots. Even if you're a Khanid or Curse pilot who disagrees with the changes, presumably you can fly other Amarr ships that are de facto boosted by the NOS nerf.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:40:00 - [550] Originally by: Almarez So what is to keep the non-cap dependent ships (i.e. Minmitar) from fitting a neut or two and bringing the Amarr ship down and the Amarr ship can not NOS because the Minmitar ship has a lower cap and the Amarr ship still dies because the Minmitar ship can get cap all the way down and still shoot and now the Amarr cap is down and the cap runs out completely because lasers suck up the rest. Fly a Sacrilage

Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:40:00 - [551] Quote: TDs are only half of it's bonus. Has a rapier only a painter bonus? Has the arazu only a dampener bonus? No, though IMO the Arazu's damp bonus is more important in gangs than its scram bonus. Both are useful, but if I had to pick I'd choose the damp bonus. TP's are nearly useless without web as almost anything small enough to not get full damage from size for a missile goes fast enough to not get full damage when unwebbed. Without the web bonus there'd be little reason to fly the Rapier. Quote: And I think you are wildely overestimating the efficiency of TDs. Have you hever used them? I did. They work okayish vs large guns, but if you think they will stop a medium AC or blaster ships from hitting you you are in for a rude awakening. You can run the numbers yourself. 1 well-skilled TD will give 220 or 425 AC's big trouble with tracking and Barrage and make Hail even more useless. Very few pilots adapt to TD's so they just stop hitting. Those that do are adapt are much easier targets and you can generally beat their tracking by moving yourself. TD'd blasters with Null or Void have similar problems. If you have only 1 extra mid slot, TD is always the best thing to pack. 2 or more mid + rig is damp. 3 or more mid, 2 low then ECM. I cheat a bit and use racial ecm with only 1 distortion amp on some setups when I know my opponent before I undock. _____ CPU Love
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:42:00 - [552] Originally by: Almarez So what is to keep the non-cap dependent ships (i.e. Minmitar) from fitting a neut or two and bringing the Amarr ship down and the Amarr ship can not NOS because the Minmitar ship has a lower cap and the Amarr ship still dies because the Minmitar ship can get cap all the way down and still shoot and now the Amarr cap is down and the cap runs out completely because lasers suck up the rest. There are several ways around this, but I'm not going to tell you what they are. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:42:00 - [553] Originally by: Almarez So what is to keep the non-cap dependent ships (i.e. Minmitar) from fitting a neut or two and bringing the Amarr ship down and the Amarr ship can not NOS because the Minmitar ship has a lower cap and the Amarr ship still dies because the Minmitar ship can get cap all the way down and still shoot and now the Amarr cap is down and the cap runs out completely because lasers suck up the rest. So how exactly does a non-cap dependant ship using only neuts have a lower cap percentage than an Amarr ship that is beeing neuted and using cap for its lasers as well?!??! In that kind of situation the nos on the Amarr ship would help it keep its cap long enough for its weapons to finish of the Minnie ship (hoppefully). But since this is all baselless speculation, neither of us will ever trully know...
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:49:00 - [554] Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released. Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:50:00 - [555] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Originally by: Almarez So what is to keep the non-cap dependent ships (i.e. Minmitar) from fitting a neut or two and bringing the Amarr ship down and the Amarr ship can not NOS because the Minmitar ship has a lower cap and the Amarr ship still dies because the Minmitar ship can get cap all the way down and still shoot and now the Amarr cap is down and the cap runs out completely because lasers suck up the rest. Fly a Sacrilage Some of us like having more than one option. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:52:00 - [556] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Almarez So what is to keep the non-cap dependent ships (i.e. Minmitar) from fitting a neut or two and bringing the Amarr ship down and the Amarr ship can not NOS because the Minmitar ship has a lower cap and the Amarr ship still dies because the Minmitar ship can get cap all the way down and still shoot and now the Amarr cap is down and the cap runs out completely because lasers suck up the rest. So how exactly does a non-cap dependant ship using only neuts have a lower cap percentage than an Amarr ship that is beeing neuted and using cap for its lasers as well?!??! In that kind of situation the nos on the Amarr ship would help it keep its cap long enough for its weapons to finish of the Minnie ship (hoppefully). But since this is all baselless speculation, neither of us will ever trully know... Lasers my friend, lasers. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:53:00 - [557] still no comment from the dev department i see. The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:53:00 - [558] I followed the directions, applied the patch 35183-35248 and than applied the patch 35248-35366 and have been receving the message "unable to connect to 87.237.38.200 on port 2600" for around three hours now, can anyone help me out here, point me in the right direction at least, even just simply tell me if the test server is actually up and what the current version may be. Cheers
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:54:00 - [559] Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released. Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time. O'RLY?!? Give me a specific ship with a specific non-cap dependant fit to corroborate your assumptions and we can take it from there...
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:58:00 - [560] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released. Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time. O'RLY?!? Give me a specific ship with a specific non-cap dependant fit to corroborate your assumptions and we can take it from there... The only real non cap dependent ships are passive tanked shielders, which weren't affected by NOS anyway.

RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:58:00 - [561] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released. Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time. How is that different from how Nos was in the past?
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:00:00 - [562] Originally by: Rennard It is also unlogical for the fictional science of the game. How will you explain it by physics means? How come you come up with a good science description for NOS module? actually now it would be pretty easy to explain as opposed to before where nos was a freakin perpetuum mobile. as to the op, i like the new nos, have to see how it works out ig ofc, about the khanid ships i'm a bit unsure. imho the heretic is way too close to the flycatcher with it's rockets boni. malediction and crow are virtually the same ship (actually i think the resist bonus for an interceptor is maybe a bit too much). the new vengeance could be nice i think, as well as the sacrilege (though i'm not sure if the lowered pg is a good idea considering the fitting requirements of hams). these 2 give amarr a nice possibility to rat in gurrista space for example. i like the new damnation but am a bit unsure on what the reduced pg will do to it's tank and have absolutely no opinion on the weapon hardpoints or boni of the anathema (or any other covops ) would have hoped for the black khanid omen tho
egal069	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:03:00 - [563] Originally by: egal069 I followed the directions, applied the patch 35183-35248 and than applied the patch 35248-35366 and have been receving the message "unable to connect to 87.237.38.200 on port 2600" for around three hours now, can anyone help me out here, point me in the right direction at least, even just simply tell me if the test server is actually up and what the current version may be. Cheers http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566657&page=1
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:12:00 - [564] Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released. Since you would still be using cap for guns/tank you would constantly be going below that equilibrium point, dragging your opponents cap down with it..... The only part of this change that is a nerf that I can see, is that Amarr will have a harder time with passive tank, no-cap guns, ships, although they get a boost to fighting NOS dependant ships..... - Haradgrim [-WB-] That.which.does.not.bend.breaks
Alkier	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:13:00 - [565] Hi guys With this nos nerf will this will make the curse and pilgrim a pretty useless ship the curse and pilgrim rely on the target ship having no cap to be used in any PVP but if both ships have 50 % cap and the curse/pilgrim cant drain any more and having to use neutralizers but this will make the curse/pilgrim very vulnerable
Tao Han Caldari Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:16:00 - [566] Dont forget to update the descriptions on the Khanid ships, bragging about strong shields on armor tankers doesnt look good
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:21:00 - [567] I will give both thumbs up for the new changes. Congratulations CCP. This time you hit the nail If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:25:00 - [568] Originally by: Almarez Abaddon/Apocalyse/Armageddon vs. Tempest/Typhoon/possibly Raven I remember asking for a "specific" fit. Just throwing out ship names doesn't prove anything. But just so you don't acuse me of trolling, I believe that a Raven with a complete passive shield tank would have a hard time fitting heavy neuts and decent missiles to really be a threat to a Geddon / Abaddon.
Kadesh Priestess	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:31:00 - [569] Personally, i like this idea. Like RL-capacitors :P But ofc with diminishing retirns formula. However, it may change gameplay alot from the one suggested by devs... 1) For example, this may help swarm of smaller ships to drain capitals. 2) Or, in other words, make small ships with naturally nosf-immune. 3) Balance skills affecting capacitor capacity and cap recharge rate. Currently it's always better to increase max cap 5% more than reduce recharge rate by the same amount (since cap recharge time doesn't change) and all corresponding modules. Etc... This won't affect curse so much (when sucking energy from the large ships) while killing in some way nosf-drone ships...
eeski Amarr kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:32:00 - [570] Amarr race nerfed for a few months now on these's ships till ppl get there skills up

Silver Shine	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:34:00 - [571] GREAT the nos changes are a VERY good idea ! Finaly ! no more gallente overpower .. thx dev's
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:35:00 - [572] How can anyone say that now curse and pilgrim will be the worst form its class? Are you drunk? Which of the other recons can kill a BS? NONE only curse was able to and will coontinue to be able to, just a take a bit longer!!! For god sake, just turn your MWD on and you will be able to NOS the other guy to almost dead dry!! All the negative response is comming in sucha childishway that i am starting to think CCP is grabbing too many players form WOW. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Holy Cheater Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:41:00 - [573] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Holy Cheater Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one. In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think. You better point your destructive energy into fixing the lags than implementing some insane ideas. Excuse me if it sounds too offensive, but I'm being killed by EVE's "evolution" for over half of year.. PS: Damnation now have no free pg and you adding it a launcher slot and removing 210pg.. Hi, let me introduce you to a module you may not be aware of... Hi, thanks for the link, but I have a bunch of blasterthron-like (big and small) ships, so I'm a bit tired of them. These two (dominix and myrm) were some kind of unique ships, and now we're going back to blasters..
LiBraga Project Gemini Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:45:00 - [574] Wow.... nerfing nos to nerf nos-domis etc = good. But it's nerfs amars nos ships = bad. Reminds me of ECM.. and the Rook still is nowhere as good as it used to be. I feel for the curse pilots. However... HAMs were made to allow predominantly the caldari pilots to get close and have some dps. Ideally the cerb. Lets compare the Cerb with the Sacrilage... what a surprise the missile specialist has been outdone and the sacrilage has a better tank aswell. It seems that all these nerfs and buffs are sending Caldari pilots out of pvp. Instead of nerfing things how about looking at the ships and setups which are unbalanced and fixing them without affecting those which are fine. Every action causes a reaction. Knock on effects. I sometimes wonder if your balancing team actually know about balancing... if not send them to uni, part time on a BSc Games Programming or Development course. Because its proven that they lack the fundimentals which are taught in year 1. I'll stop ranting now. --------------- What! Caldari have dps now... noooo Aye, T2 HAMs FTW!!!!!
Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:47:00 - [575] I'm loving this. Nos nerf, Khanid mk II and some guy with 50 alts trying to convince CCP nobody wants this.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:50:00 - [576] I very much like the changes, especially as they complement each other. Giving Khanid Innovations technology a close-range active-tank missile flavour would have ruined the line had nos remained unchanged. The marginally useful ships in particular would have been forced into an evolutionary dead end overnight (eg AF forced into rocket range with even T1 cruisers packing multiple nos). The nos change removes the no-brainer anti-(everything smaller than you) fitting option. Aside from giving the Khanid ships a fighting chance on their own strengths, it increases the survivability of smaller ships vs larger ones in general, which for a while has been sadly lacking. It's good news for all small ship pilots. People can still rob the enemy of cap to an extent, but fully draining a target's capacitor now involves a fitting and performance compromise in the form of neuts which do not pay off 100% of the time, as nos did by design. For a long time I was a nos supporter, it seemed reasonable enough, but player behaviour broke it. The nos bonus ships will adapt, remember the bonus applies to neuts. The rest, maybe people should use the weapon bonuses now like they are supposed to. Everyone who hates this change simply hates having to spend the time changing their setups and methods, nothing more. This does actually make things a lot better because everyone will be spending less time twiddling their thumbs waiting for their hitpoints to ablate before they can warp their pod. Now that is boring gameplay. If you think the Khanid ships are overpowered, you will just have to use webs, drones and guns without nos prepping the victim. And in fact all ships which use cap for damage just got a little survivability boost. I am very happy with these changes and can't wait to see them put into practice in their current form. Logoffs
Commander Spectre	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:55:00 - [577] Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:56:54 Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:55:18 Well I think this change sucks. The only difference is I'm not a CCP puppet that is afraid to say so. This was obviously done to further boost Amarr ships while leaving the rest of the races behind. Of course it doesn't affect minmtar much which is another requirement of a patch. The NOS domi is now going to be a thing of the past making it a totally usless ship. It doesn't have the firepower to take on any of the other tier 1 BS so it is just a plain drone boat. Might get some use outta it by sticking some miner IIs and mining drones on it. So if you make a new character make sure you train up Amarr or Minmtar. CCP is out to ruin the other races with thier "Patches". Another stupid idea from CCP. What is the deal anyways? Do you only listen to Amarr whiners before you make a patch?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:57:00 - [578] One (similarly made up) scenario for fighting a cap-independent ship equipped with NEUT with an Amarr laser boat... As the CIN (cap-independent NEUT) ship NEUTs your energy away, you NOS him down as well... the CIN is paying to kill your cap (and his cap from your NOS drain), too. Once you both get to zero cap, pop a cap booster charge, CIN doesn't have the cap to use the NEUT and your NOS cost you nothing to use (still). If the CIN pops a cap booster, you'll get energy from it. Your lasers keep running somewhat, CIN can't NEUT you and if it pops a cap booster charge, you'll NOS it down to equal anyway. So... even though you both death-spiral down to zero, the ship with NEUT will be at a disadvantage since it can no longer NEUT but the NOS ship can cap boost after that point all it wants. Put a NEUT on the NOS ship in addition and once you hit zero, the CIN will never regain cap. It's kind of like the Amarr and CIN death spiral down to 0 but then the Amarr ship bounces back up while the CIN just sits flat on the ground. This is much better than today when everybody equips NOS and once you hit 0, you don't have any options because active NOS sucks it away (even on the CIN above).
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:59:00 - [579] Quote: The only real non cap dependent ships are passive tanked shielders, which weren't affected by NOS anyway. Which means that any NOS ship is free to suck their cap down just as before. You may have to engage your armor rep a cycle or two even if you don't need it to keep your cap lower than your target, but you'll be able to drain the target the whole while.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.31 16:59:00 - [580] You can stop posting here. Its useless. The changes are already coming if we like it or not. Talking about it wont change anything. Devs, you suck. Ship lovers click here

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:01:00 - [581] Originally by: Commander Spectre Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:56:54 Edited by: Commander Spectre on 31/07/2007 16:55:18 Well I think this change sucks. The only difference is I'm not a CCP puppet that is afraid to say so. This was obviously done to further boost Amarr ships while leaving the rest of the races behind. Of course it doesn't affect minmtar much which is another requirement of a patch. The NOS domi is now going to be a thing of the past making it a totally usless ship. It doesn't have the firepower to take on any of the other tier 1 BS so it is just a plain drone boat. Might get some use outta it by sticking some miner IIs and mining drones on it. So if you make a new character make sure you train up Amarr or Minmtar. CCP is out to ruin the other races with thier "Patches". Another stupid idea from CCP. What is the deal anyways? Do you only listen to Amarr whiners before you make a patch? Ok, let me reply to your post by saying: "Oh noes, the nos-domi now actually requires some thought and isn't an I-Win boat vs almost everyother ship out there!" Again:
Fozters	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:03:00 - [582] Chance HAM's to heavy missiles insted
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:06:00 - [583] Edited by: Fallorn on 31/07/2007 17:06:13 The Khanid MK II is wonderful because it makes for something new and fun looking. The nos change is something that is in the process of killing all the blood raider ships along with the Curse, and changes many other fittings. One other thing is the fact the Curse is developed by Khanid Innovation but it is not receiving a change. If you are going to neuter it you might as well just scrap it and give it a completely new look like the damnation and others. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:07:00 - [584] The one thing i dont like about the khanid changes is that it leaves all amarr pilots, who specialized in lasers, with 1 AF that can't properly tackle on its own. This was the vengance niche so far, since the retribution cant do it with just one med slot. So if the vengance is changed so drastically the retribution needs at least one more med slot, preferrably by sacrificing one low slot. In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP (why isnt that fixed? there are multiple proposals on that..!). Another thing is that few people fly amarr because amarr ships are very predictable, especially in this case. seriously, would you fly a sacrilege, if a caracal pilot can kill you, while you dont stand a chance to hit him, because he has a longer range and more med slots to dampen you? if you really wanna boost khanid ships, give em a bonus on missiles in general, not just close range, because thats a nerf in (a bad) disguise, and people dont like that... _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:14:00 - [585] Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa The one thing i dont like about the khanid changes is that it leaves all amarr pilots, who specialized in lasers, with 1 AF that can't properly tackle on its own. This was the vengance niche so far, since the retribution cant do it with just one med slot. So if the vengance is changed so drastically the retribution needs at least one more med slot, preferrably by sacrificing one low slot. In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP (why isnt that fixed? there are multiple proposals on that..!). Another thing is that few people fly amarr because amarr ships are very predictable, especially in this case. seriously, would you fly a sacrilege, if a caracal pilot can kill you, while you dont stand a chance to hit him, because he has a longer range and more med slots to dampen you? if you really wanna boost khanid ships, give em a bonus on missiles in general, not just close range, because thats a nerf in (a bad) disguise, and people dont like that... WHAT?!?! "In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP" - Do you know ANYTHING about this game?!?! The reason "missile ships" aren't regarded as very usefull in PVP is because they where all Caldari, i.e. shield tankers, and so had to sacrifice their tank to tackle, use speed mods, EW, etc. Guess what the Khanid ships are? Armour tankers, so this isn't an issue anymore. And a Sacriledge can't kill a Caracal because the Caracal has more mids and a bigger range?!?! WTF are you smoking! I can kill non-AM Caracals in my Punisher! With 2 midslots and a range of 2km on my guns! Please, please, please, for the guys arguing against these changes, at least find some arguments that aren't actually absurd and some people qho actually know anything about PVP in this game!
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:15:00 - [586] I have flown with blasters, so I don't have a problem with close range. Hardly anyone used the Vengeance before, hardly anyone used the Damnation. The proof will be when you start seeing them in PVP. If you see them in PVP, it means the patch was good. And Amarr being boosted with other races being left behind? Give me a break, the Devs admitted Amarr had serious problems months ago. This isn't the last boost you will see before they are brought back up to scratch. The Dominix can be used with hybrids by the way. I have my skills maxed in that thing on two characters, I am not complaining about it either. Logoffs
JCache	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:20:00 - [587] Originally by: Hellspawn01 You can stop posting here. Its useless. The changes are already coming if we like it or not. Talking about it wont change anything. Devs, you suck. You're probably right, but at least we should let them know how ****ty they are. They will definitely lose some customers because of this crap. Let's see if they can adapt or will die...
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:21:00 - [588] Originally by: JCache Originally by: Hellspawn01 You can stop posting here. Its useless. The changes are already coming if we like it or not. Talking about it wont change anything. Devs, you suck. You're probably right, but at least we should let them know how ****ty they are. They will definitely lose some customers because of this crap. Let's see if they can adapt or will die... Can I have your stuff?
Phyridean Lionsgate Ionic Dispersion	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:29:00 - [589] Originally by: Tao Han Dont forget to update the descriptions on the Khanid ships, bragging about strong shields on armor tankers doesnt look good You mean like they did on the Manticore? Originally by: Manticore Description The Manticore differs from other stealth bombers by virtue of its additional launcher hardpoint.
Gentlewind	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:37:00 - [590] Eve online-mediocrity in space. I love all the pro-nos change monkeys, yet another shining star of a ship the Curse is dragged back down into the general mire that eve is becoming. God forbid that there should actually be a ship thats exciting to fly, what people really want is every ship to be exactly the same. Maybe I'll go back to fleet engagements where I can play the exciting game of 'will my km arrive before the grid loads'. Oh by the way ccp I'm sure all the 0.0 23/7 raven farmers that you seem to turn a blind eye to, which the curse was so good at killing, will reward you by bringing lots of their friends to the game.

Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:39:00 - [591] I don't have time to read all 22 pages to see if it's been added, so I'll keep this brief: BHAALGORN NEEDS TO HAVE A NEUTRALIZER BONUS ALONG WITH ITS NOS BONUS! That's it. Done and done. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:40:00 - [592] Originally by: PhantomVyper Can I have your stuff? You can't have all the quitters' stuff... where would you put it? At least let me have some of the Sacs/Vengences they think are somehow worthless now!
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:58:00 - [593] Originally by: Zerv MAKE NOS TRANSFER AMOUNT DEPENDENT ON SIG RADIUS. The reason this didn't happen is that it doesn't solve all the imbalance issues with NOS (among other reasons). Current NOS fix is good. PS Just think of it as a modification to all ships' grid systems to make them NOS resistant. ...
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:58:00 - [594] ok dev's.. tell us how you want us to set up our Pilgrim's, please? Here is my loadout, please.. tell me how I'm to fit a cap injector (I'm leaving out 1 mid slot for the cap injector). Highs: 2x TS (true sansha) Medium Nosferatu 1x TS medium energy neutralizer 1x Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Mids: 1x Y-T8 Microwarpdrive 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x Domination Stasis Webifier 1x Balmer Tracking Disruptor (I normally fit 2 of these) Lows: 1x Co-processor II 2x Energized Adaptive Nano-membrane II 1x 800mm Rolled Tungstun Plate 1x Medium Armor Repairer II Rigs: Ancillary Current Router (Powergrid Rig) Auxiliary Nano Pump (Armor rep rig) This leaves me with 86.75 powergrid, and 56.25 CPU left. A Medium Cap Booster II uses 165MW Powergrid. Exactly what are your intended roles for these ships? I am using True Sansha NOS / Energy Neuts so I can operate in the 13,500km range, which leaves me vulnerable to getting webbed (by faction webbers).. NOS'd / Energy Neutered by Battleship sized modules, smartbombs, not too mention scoop / re-deployed drones. What, are you telling us you WANT us to go on "suicide runs" just to neutralize someone's capacitor? Well.. guess what, a battleship can do the job better (running 2x neuts).. AND have left over capacitor to run his tank. How EXACTLY do you want us to play the game? You are obviously FORCING people to play one exact way (called pigeonholing). As it is now, with my current build, I go in, run the NOS and 2 cycles of the energy neut. Guess what? This leaves me at 1/2 capacitor. Yes.. I have MAXED skills. Are you telling us you want us to run the energy neut indefinately? WTF? If this change goes through, I want the following changes, because they are overpowered too: 1) Stasis Webifiers (The enemy can hold me still / can go faster than me) 2) Warp Scramblers / Disruptors (Its not fair that I can't warp when he can) 3) All weapons (Again, not fair that he can get my shields / armor / hull down before he can) 4) Probes (Not fair that an enemy can probe me out and I can't do the same to him) 5) Drones (Its not fair that my T1 small drones can't outdamage Fighter Drones) 6) Warp Bubbles (Why can't I warp away when in a warp bubble? Not fair) 7) Asteroid belts (Why do I have to spend all day mining for ore?) 8) Missions (Its not fair that I have to do missions to earn ISK) 9) The Market (Why do I have to pay for something, and someone else gets my ISK? WTF?) 10) Ships (Why do these ships have faster speed / lock range / Shield / Armor / Hull HP that I do? Not FAIR!!) And for ** sakes... where the is the god damn response to these concerns? Jesus Christ.. This is getting VERY sloppy. (sorry about this rant.. my coffee tastes like ** this morning.. I'm still no less upset ) The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.31 17:59:00 - [595] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: PhantomVyper Can I have your stuff? You can't have all the quitters' stuff... where would you put it? At least let me have some of the Sacs/Vengences they think are somehow worthless now! That would be too much, each time you'd open your assets you'd crash the node. I support the nos change, and the new cald...errr, I mean Khanid design, appart for the half-bonus thingy. Either you give a real missile bonus, or you don't, but those half-bonuses are bad in themselfes, and set a bad precedent, on top of it. And I'd like to hear something from CCP, there's nothing worse than dropping discutables changes and then refusing to discuss them with those they will affect... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:05:00 - [596] Yup... I think the Sacrilege and Vengence will be really good ships as they are. If CCP "opens up" the bonus to include all launchers for each class (mediums for the Sac and lights for the Vengence), they'll just be even better... I imagine the Caldari Cerberus pilots will complain a lot and get the damage bonus nerfed to just EM, if that happens though. The Hawk pilots will just lay eggs over the Vengence.
Ta chaina	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:10:00 - [597] I see that if you train Amarr you get the short end of the stick again Well maybe someday someone will make a new space game.
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:13:00 - [598] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Holy Cheater Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one. In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think. Stop crying. You know how "solo pvp curse combat" looks like now? Set orbit 18-20km, f1-f8 (1-4 launcher+nosf, 5-7 3x damps, 8- scrambler), send drones, go afk, collect loot. If your cap is getting low nosf sth else (can be NPC). If you cant kill target, recall drones warp away (not like you were hit thx to damps anyways). I gladly welcome back old f1-f8 ganks vs tank slugfests rather than f1-f8 "cant touch me i kill you" ganks. At least when you commit to combat "old style" you risk your ship. Well put. ...
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:15:00 - [599] Originally by: Razin Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Holy Cheater Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one. In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think. Stop crying. You know how "solo pvp curse combat" looks like now? Set orbit 18-20km, f1-f8 (1-4 launcher+nosf, 5-7 3x damps, 8- scrambler), send drones, go afk, collect loot. If your cap is getting low nosf sth else (can be NPC). If you cant kill target, recall drones warp away (not like you were hit thx to damps anyways). I gladly welcome back old f1-f8 ganks vs tank slugfests rather than f1-f8 "cant touch me i kill you" ganks. At least when you commit to combat "old style" you risk your ship. Well put. Agreed.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:20:00 - [600] I love it. Can't wait for it to be deployed. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."

Gentlewind	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:22:00 - [601] Edited by: Gentlewind on 31/07/2007 18:22:18 Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Razin Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Holy Cheater Nos-nerf means you kill 4 ships at a time (dominix, myrmidon, curse, pilgrim). Congratulations, CCP. It is a sad tendency to kill solo ships one by one. In a half of year PvP will turn into F1-F8 with a latency of 10 min in a lagged-fleet fights, I think. Stop crying. You know how "solo pvp curse combat" looks like now? Set orbit 18-20km, f1-f8 (1-4 launcher+nosf, 5-7 3x damps, 8- scrambler), send drones, go afk, collect loot. If your cap is getting low nosf sth else (can be NPC). If you cant kill target, recall drones warp away (not like you were hit thx to damps anyways). I gladly welcome back old f1-f8 ganks vs tank slugfests rather than f1-f8 "cant touch me i kill you" ganks. At least when you commit to combat "old style" you risk your ship. Well put. Agreed. Yeah because other types of eve combat are so different, lets see:- Gatecamp-->bubble-->f1-f8 gang gank--->bubble or points-->f1-f8 fleet engagement-->target primary--->f1-f8 etc, etc When I fly my curse its worth over 300 million and I go up against odds that give me a buzz, nos is important for many reasons in my setup and nerfing it because its the whiney *****es flavour of the month irritates me a tad.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:23:00 - [602] Neuts are the new nos, and nos is the anti-neut by the looks of things. Of course, cap boosters etc help both sides. I think its a very intresting change. -- Billion Isk Mission
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:26:00 - [603] Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Mr Breakfast Originally by: Haradgrim I still don't see how people are thinking this is that huge of a nerf to Nos, any ship that used it before to sustain cap is still going to be able to Nos the other ship to zero, you just won't be able to outpace it (which you should be using neuts for anyhow. Anyone? Am I missing somehting? If your cap is going up from NOS and the target's cap is going down, you would reach a point of equilibrium where the two caps are equal and NOS stops working. At that point you can shut off NOS and kill them while their guns/tank drain the rest of their cap. This doesn't apply in close fights where both players are using NOS and their cap is neck-and-neck. I'm not sure how that kind of battle would work out, but we'll see after the patch is released. Also doesn' apply to Amarr ships fighting non-cap depedent ships as the Amarr ship will now lose every time. O'RLY?!? Give me a specific ship with a specific non-cap dependant fit to corroborate your assumptions and we can take it from there... The only real non cap dependent ships are passive tanked shielders, which weren't affected by NOS anyway. Passive or active tank doesn't matter. Let's assume an Abaddon goes up against an actively tanked Raven and we get into the whole low cap situation, hell let's say they both run out of cap, the Abaddon can now no longer shoot or tank while the Raven can just no longer tank, who do you think will win? New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much poontang you were missing-PRICELESS
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:44:00 - [604] Ya know, I fly Gallente and I have seen how broken Nos ships could be. And I see how this change will eliminate the your out of cap and I'm at full haha now die, aspect of the game. However, This will only encourage small gangs to make ships that drain cap AND then tranfer cap and burn as much cap making bigger tanks than before. Basically, fine, I'll burn my cap and help my friends while you still suffer anyway. Mathematically depending on how its coded, a BS with half cap could drain a frig in one shot. Why? Because frig = 100% cap and I'm at 50%, so my nos will activate; now the frig is at 0% and I'm at 60%. Thanks for the cap buddy! This still doesn't protect the smaller ships from getting cap drained by larger ships. However, unless its coded to say, will this activate drop the cap below my current 50% then it won't be balanced. Then the goal for fights would be for both ships to maintain caps at low as possible with still holding a tank instead of "burst tanks" which people currently seem to equip for. This isn't an end all be all fix, and will just cause people to re-fit their ships to again compensate so that somebody cries wolf that some other module is just too powerful.
Adjuticator	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:47:00 - [605] So no more use for amarr recon ship ..... So need to train for missile (currently 500 sp) ..... Wts 20M sp amarr char
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:53:00 - [606] Originally by: Donathan Slade Ya know, I fly Gallente and I have seen how broken Nos ships could be. And I see how this change will eliminate the your out of cap and I'm at full haha now die, aspect of the game. However, This will only encourage small gangs to make ships that drain cap AND then tranfer cap and burn as much cap making bigger tanks than before. Basically, fine, I'll burn my cap and help my friends while you still suffer anyway. Mathematically depending on how its coded, a BS with half cap could drain a frig in one shot. Why? Because frig = 100% cap and I'm at 50%, so my nos will activate; now the frig is at 0% and I'm at 60%. Thanks for the cap buddy! This still doesn't protect the smaller ships from getting cap drained by larger ships. However, unless its coded to say, will this activate drop the cap below my current 50% then it won't be balanced. Then the goal for fights would be for both ships to maintain caps at low as possible with still holding a tank instead of "burst tanks" which people currently seem to equip for. This isn't an end all be all fix, and will just cause people to re-fit their ships to again compensate so that somebody cries wolf that some other module is just too powerful. It's percentage based. So if you have 60% cap on BS you can only drain to 60% on the frig. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much snip - removed; inappropriate. -Ivan K you were missing-PRICELESS
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:53:00 - [607] Originally by: Adjuticator So no more use for amarr recon ship ..... So need to train for missile (currently 500 sp) ..... Wts 20M sp amarr char What ***es me off is I was told not to train to recon lvl 5 because NOS would get nerfed, I just didn't think it would be to the point where the Pilgrim and the Curse would become pointless. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much snip* - removed; inappropriate. -Ivan K you were missing-PRICELESS
Syrin Wildfire Laboratrories The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:10:00 - [608] Damnations and sacrileges are so terrible now they doubled in price in oursulaert.
Octavio Santillian Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:11:00 - [609] TBH, they should just get rid of NOS and rework Neuts to be a little more viable as a weapon system. NOS was always a bad game mechanic, it was like having a gun that damaged your target and repaired your tank at the same timeànuts. Now they make zero conceptual sense to boot. I mean, why would NOS stop draining the enemiesÆ cap just because your cap percentage was equal with the targets?????? IÆm sure you could pull some explanation out of your buttàbut why. Lower activation cost (and other reworks) on Neuts would be sufficient. Anyway I realize the total loss of NOS would be a hit to Amarr cap drain ships, so you would have to rework their bonus so they would be able to realistically use Neuts to great effect. PS, I haven't read the entire thread so sorry if I am just reiterating somone else.
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:13:00 - [610] I can't say that the NOS changes are anything above poor. But I think we'll be able to adapt. If these changes take place when I see a curse IÆm just gona have to laugh at him a bit as my vaga eats him alive with no worry about him tanking the DPS because if I have no cap I'm sure he's pretty screwed also. On a positive note I believe giving them a bonus that decreases how much cap neuts use would make up for the poor changes. But even with the changes a skilled pilot when facing more than one target could manage his NOS properly an still NOS others. Jumping to the Amarr T2 Ships... Something about a missile spamming armor tanker seems well.. off. An it's really unfair to the other races to have Amarr of all races a missile boat. But I've seen stranger things (Not Really). I would expect something like this to take place with Minmatar. Turning the Claymore into a missile boat makes since. However.. Some changes in eve are starting to make less since an more SWG. Like scanning cloakers..?? The NOS changes are drastic but could work out with skill changes allowing you to NOS even when you have less cap an ship changes to have Neuts use less cap. However Amarr missile boats...... OMG Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])

Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:15:00 - [611] After a day or so to think about it I realized the problem with the NOS nerf isn't that there is going to be a nos Nerf its that this particular nerf is a really bad way to do it. Yea, NOS is a bit overpowered when a BS not meant to specialize in it can fit 4 of them but Id still like to fit a Nos to keep my blasters firing or my Neuts working. There have been suggestions on this forum that are far better thought out that this crap CCP has come up with. A nice stacking penalty is the best Ive heard so far. It would reduce the effectiveness of nos on ships not meant to stack them and a boost for the Nos specialty ships would easily balance it out. Someone mentioned lowering the activation costs for Neuts. This would at least give us an alternative to nos. As is, Nuets are just suicide modules without nos. Nos are set to become the only modules meant to even out a battle. We don't fit mods to even a battle we fit them to give us an advantage. Come on CCP. Nos needs a screwdriver and a few minuets of work not a swing of a sledgehammer. This fix is Lazy.
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:18:00 - [612] Edited by: Wyliee on 31/07/2007 19:21:33 Edited by: Wyliee on 31/07/2007 19:19:21 its 22 pages in now.. most people here are saying the same thing..plenty of feed back and most of it negative. i have been paying ú10+ a month on both my accounts now for over a year. And i demand that the dev's give some offical response to the current feed back regarding the issues people have flagged (expecaily with noz and ammar recons). and if you agree with me go ahead and endorse this post. W
Asterixm Minmatar Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:27:00 - [613] thanks a lot ccp i just finished heavy assault ship lvl5, now i can't fly sacrilege because i have 0 sp in missile great job
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:30:00 - [614] Originally by: Asterixm thanks a lot ccp i just finished heavy assault ship lvl5, now i can't fly sacrilege because i have 0 sp in missile great job Now that you're done training HAC 5, you have plenty of time to cross train missiles. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:30:00 - [615] Originally by: Vampire Lord Edited by: Vampire Lord on 31/07/2007 19:26:42 I can't say that the NOS changes are anything above poor. But I think we'll be able to adapt. If these changes take place when I see a curse IÆm just gona have to laugh at him a bit as my vaga eats him alive with no worry about him tanking the DPS because if I have no cap I'm sure he's pretty screwed also. On a positive note I believe giving them a bonus that decreases how much cap neuts use would make up for the poor changes. But even with the changes a skilled pilot when facing more than one target could manage his NOS properly an still NOS others. Jumping to the Amarr T2 Ships... Something about a missile spamming armor tanker seems well.. off. An it's really fair to the other races to have Amarr of all races a missile boat. But I've seen stranger things (Not Really). I would expect something like this to take place with Minmatar. Turning the Claymore into a missile boat makes since. However.. Some changes in eve are starting to make less since an more SWG. Like scanning cloakers..?? The NOS changes are drastic but could work out with skill changes allowing you to NOS even when you have less cap an ship changes to have Neuts use less cap. However Amarr missile boats...... OMG Have you read the description of Khannid? They are a mix of Amarrian and Caldari technology, it was either armor tanking missle spewers or shield tanking laser boats, either way, it would be off, this way at least Amarr pilots have some options. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much snip - removed; inappropriate. -Ivan K you were missing-PRICELESS
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:32:00 - [616] Originally by: Wyliee Edited by: Wyliee on 31/07/2007 19:21:33 Edited by: Wyliee on 31/07/2007 19:19:21 its 22 pages in now.. most people here are saying the same thing..plenty of feed back and most of it negative. i have been paying ú10+ a month on both my accounts now for over a year. And i demand that the dev's give some offical response to the current feed back regarding the issues people have flagged (expecaily with noz and ammar recons). and if you agree with me go ahead and endorse this post. W Hmm, I think I agree here, give us your thoughts. New outpost-30 bil isk, Items to save up for cap ships-700 mil isk, Going to bed early now that you don't have to work for that and realizing how much snip - removed; inappropriate. -Ivan K you were missing-PRICELESS
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:36:00 - [617] Edited by: Wyliee on 31/07/2007 19:38:11 ok is this not a fact? if you have rubbish cap skills noz's are gonna work better for you. your target has good cap skills he wil always have a better cap than you, then you can noz him and drag his cap down to your level. if you have rubbish neut skills you wil burn more cap to run your neuts lowering your cap quicker therefore your noz's will pull down your targets cap to your level. infact you can apply that rule to any mod that get cap benenfit per skill level you train. i see it will benefit people with rubbish skills and nerf those with better skills. i been chewing this over and i think that a better fix would be that noz's drain a certain percent of the remaining cap in your target. with an upper limit dependent on noz size. or a stacking penatly or anything other than this!!
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:36:00 - [618] I disagree with the Amarr recon doom and gloom crowd. The Curse has been brought in line with the other Combat Recon ships. It is still effective, and it's not a solopwnmobile. I would HOPE that a battleship should be able to have a chance against a cruiser class ship, and thinking otherwise is selfish. The Curse, as well as Nos, was overpowered. Fixed. The Pilgrim... it has been hurt, and at this point I would prefer the Minmatar Force Recon... but it's far from useless as a scout quite capable of picking off Cruisers and below, and likely even BC's to some extent. My solution? Sell my Pilgrim now before prices plummet, and buy a new one in a week or so :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:40:00 - [619] Welcome to Eve-Online where now the flycatcher can be seen sporting a new set of mid and low slots and be flown with a Coercer hull. W T F? I'm Caldari and that is the stupidest thing I've seen. Atleast give the Heretic 5/5 slots. Amarr wouldn't be caught dead letting their only dictor not be able to use guns... that's SACRILEGE!(lol, poor ship is not much better off) I really think the changes just turned the entire Amarr race against itself in the t2 field. You've just managed to pidgeon-hole half the race's t2 ships so that everyone has to retrain to use them. Congrats on that one. If they hurry and train Caldari, they can just start flying sansha faction ships too. Next thing you know, they'll be shield tanking Abaddons. Nos changes though... I feel kinda bad for Curse/Pilgrim pilots. So far you've just managed to create the lordship of Arazu/Lachesis(Which I can fly) and Rapier/Huginn(which I can't) in the recon world. My Rook will RIP after the last recon nerf, even though I have about 2m in skills wasted on it. Nos needed a stacking nerf(per player) not a complete re-do like this. Capitals are going to be an issue with this change. The question will be then... When is Capital Nos/Neuts coming out then? :P The honest truth is... Khanid take inspiration from Caldari. But why not extend that inspiration into a long-range combat platform since almost every single Caldari gun ship is long range? Just cause we can use missiles doesn't mean that we need another minmatar-type training race. I'll post my examples: Vulture to Damnation: Vulture is 100% range bonuses. Fleet ships would be similar, not completely the opposite don't you think? Eagle to Sacrilege: Eagle is another range bonus ship. Raptor to Malediction: Another range bonus. Hawk/Harpy to Vengeance: Originally the Hawk had mixed setup. Changed to missiles because a primary AF for Caldari needed to be missiles right? So that means the Harpy is actually the 'secondary' AF now, which, oddly enough, has a range bonus. Flycatcher to Heretic: Flycatcher is a missile boat, but the Cormorant? Range bonus. Give the Amarr a sniping class. Not a missile class. For the love of god, it would only be fair to challenge the habitually close-ranged setups for Blasters and Autocannons in Gallente and Minmatar. Cythrawl DEFY Director Nerf Amarr Protester =+=+=+=+=+=+= Originally by: Black Torment OH GOD, DROWNING IN TINFOIL.
Octavio Santillian Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:43:00 - [620] The more I think about this the more laughable it is. Poor Amarr, I almost feel sorry for the slaving b-stards. Lets see: 1) Core issues with lasers/Omni tanks not addressed. 2) Only really good ships they had have been nerfed (though this had to happen because NOS is just stupid). 3) Now need to train entirely new tree to use half of their ships. 4) Forced into short range combat on half their ships.

Suicide Joe	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:49:00 - [621] Ship changes are great. Nos changes, just don't make any sense to me. I agree NOS is overpowered, and needs a change, but the change makes no sense to me. Why does it stop if a ship has less cap than me? I can think of no easy explanation, other than "cause it does" Also (if I'm in a cruiser at 50%) Why does a BS at 40% (with loads more actual cap than me)not get noss'd? while a frig at 60% does? I'd drain the Frig, but only dent the BSs cap. Anyway, the proposal is SO POOR IT'S NOT FUNNY - makes the Nos unnecessarily complicated, and just feels like a clumsy nerf. If you want to balance it, they should make the Nos affect your max cap, like a MWD (although maybe not as much!) - say 5% each nos, with a skill to reduce it. (silly numbers off the top of my head, so don't scream at me). So, you loose some maximum, (and with it rate) yourself. But you gain the ability to replace that loss with other peoples cap. insert some unnecessary game reasoning here: 'Due to the intricacies of interfacing the Nosferatu device with the main capacitor systems, some loss of maximum charge with be incurred' shrug*
Vandalzzz Red Assault Brigades United Legion	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:49:00 - [622] haven't read all topic yet(omg 22 pages.. ), but there is one good idea from one player in Russian eve community: do not "boost" NOS that way, instead of this apply to them "signature resolution" characteristic. For example, Heavy NOS wouldn't drain cap from inty in full scale, but will do it with other BS. Same way with the Neut. Think about it.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:53:00 - [623] Originally by: Suicide Joe Nos changes, just don't make any sense to me. I agree NOS is overpowered, and needs a change, but the change makes no sense to me. Why does it stop if a ship has less cap than me? I can think of no easy explanation, other than "cause it does" As if Nosferatu has any sort of plausible explanation at all. Capacitors store charge. How can you get a charge in one capacitor to flow to another capacitor with a higher charge? That doesn't make any sense, either, yet it's just how Nosferatu has worked all along. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:57:00 - [624] I fail to even see how NOS is now a "defensive" module. If my victim is going down, and he's losing cap... my NOS won't give me the cap I need to fire my lasers. I end up losing cap too, and we're equal. But if my victim continues to fire missiles or projectiles, I am dead. Also... Amarr recons are not "Cruisers." They cost about 50x as much as regular cruisers and take months and months to train. Please stop saying this nerf is good because "cruisers shouldn't be able to take down battleships." A curse or a pilgrim is, and should be way more powerful than any tech 1 battleship.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:58:00 - [625] BS CHANGES, Most of those whom agree to thees changes are caldri take a raven now, with 3 pg rigs, 5 launchers and 3 large nos this will pawn the ** out of anyship why? well cuse the sheild rep takes 4sec to burn the cap while the armor rep takes 12 sec, that means it uses its cap 3 times faster and say vs a mega, that allso uses cap to fire it guns it will be drained to hell, due the raven uses its cap 3 times faster, and will pawn every armor tanking ship in eve. officer fitted or not, the raven will win, tottal bs ** changes, making caldri more powerfull, dump changes, think befor you nerf, and the poor people whom lose sp time and cant use there ships, wtf? Nerf the Caldri to atlest be the same as the rest of the races,
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:59:00 - [626] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Suicide Joe Nos changes, just don't make any sense to me. I agree NOS is overpowered, and needs a change, but the change makes no sense to me. Why does it stop if a ship has less cap than me? I can think of no easy explanation, other than "cause it does" As if Nosferatu has any sort of plausible explanation at all. Capacitors store charge. How can you get a charge in one capacitor to flow to another capacitor with a higher charge? That doesn't make any sense, either, yet it's just how Nosferatu has worked all along. Multiple capacitor cells along a line, each broken into switchable links, so that an empty one can be filled from a full one. I say they just make an anti-nos module that lowers the effectiveness of nos. And a stacking nerf per player using it on a ship. =+=+=+=+=+=+= Originally by: Black Torment OH GOD, DROWNING IN TINFOIL.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:01:00 - [627] I don't see many Rooks and Falcons solo-killing BS, so the Amarr recon nerf crowd is missing the point. Do you guys even fly mainstream Amarr? Or did you just train the tree specifically for the Curse and Pilgrim, and fit sensor dampeners so you could solo? No sympathy from me if you did. Pair nos with neuts, fit tracking disruptors and get a couple of wingmen like everyone else. And there is nothing wrong with missiles. Read Khanid description. It's overdue. I bet this autumn the same people will be complaining they're being owned by overpowered Khanid. I'll tell you know who will be flying them. People who flew Amarr as the whole package and learned to deal with every limitation. And what's wrong with learning rockets if you are Amarr? If you haven't taken that tiny step already, it means you have been limiting your options with the Malediction this whole time. Rockets are a rookie weapon, the ships are frigates, we are not talking training for capitals here. Logoffs
Asterixm Minmatar Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:01:00 - [628] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Asterixm thanks a lot ccp i just finished heavy assault ship lvl5, now i can't fly sacrilege because i have 0 sp in missile great job Now that you're done training HAC 5, you have plenty of time to cross train missiles. nah seriously .... amarr recon specialist ... amarr hac specialist 1.5 years training .... just one patch and he become TOTALY useless
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:04:00 - [629] nos stack penalty. just like damage mods easy and totaly fair with out screwing game dynamics. let new ammar ships use all missles not just short range ones. i think this is the fairest way forward and if enough people agree maybe they will take notice?
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:06:00 - [630] Originally by: Cmdr Sy I don't see many Rooks and Falcons solo-killing BS, so the Amarr recon nerf crowd is missing the point. Do you guys even fly mainstream Amarr? Or did you just train the tree specifically for the Curse and Pilgrim, and fit sensor dampeners so you could solo? No sympathy from me if you did. Pair nos with neuts, fit tracking disruptors and get a couple of wingmen like everyone else. And there is nothing wrong with missiles. Read Khanid description. It's overdue. I bet this autumn the same people will be complaining they're being owned by overpowered Khanid. I'll tell you know who will be flying them. People who flew Amarr as the whole package and learned to deal with every limitation. And what's wrong with learning rockets if you are Amarr? If you haven't taken that tiny step already, it means you have been limiting your options with the Malediction this whole time. Rockets are a rookie weapon, the ships are frigates, we are not talking training for capitals here. The Curse/Pilgrim were the only two capable ships in Amarr's entire fleet. And if you are one of those guys who sunk all your SP into training a passive drake, a NOS domi, or a t2 sniper Rokh then I have no sympathy for you either.

LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:06:00 - [631] Originally by: Wyliee nos stack penalty. just like damage mods easy and totaly fair with out screwing game dynamics. let new ammar ships use all missles not just short range ones. i think this is the fairest way forward and if enough people agree maybe they will take notice? I think that the implementation of special NOS hardpoints would be even simpler.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:08:00 - [632] someone on the fourm said it quite well Edited by: SauronTheMage on 25/03/2007 22:24:01 I would suggest getting someone in your gang to equip damps / ecm. If you can get a minnie & gallente recon in the gang, even better. Drop the domi's range under 15km-20km and there you go. The trick is having the right gang members, and the right modules on your ships. Nos isn't overpowered, people just don't know how to fit to counter it!
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:16:00 - [633] Edited by: Borasao on 31/07/2007 20:17:33 Originally by: Asterixm Originally by: murder one Originally by: Asterixm thanks a lot ccp i just finished heavy assault ship lvl5, now i can't fly sacrilege because i have 0 sp in missile great job Now that you're done training HAC 5, you have plenty of time to cross train missiles. nah seriously .... amarr recon specialist ... amarr hac specialist 1.5 years training .... just one patch and he become TOTALY useless Yeah... because they removed the Zealot from the game. The Pilgrim has issues but the Curse has alternate play modes to still be a pretty good solopwn ship, if you have the open mindedness to try some different setups, just maybe not quite as good as before. In gangs, they can still be very useful. Just because you limit yourself to one style of play does not mean that others are invalid. The good players will adapt fairly easily from what I've seen in other posts. The poor ones will cry about the changes without considering any other setups than the ones they've been using to afk pvp for some time now. AND, all of this is still proposed changes... we haven't seen (if there will be) any changes to the Curse or Pilgrim because of these changes. The Sacrilege sucked and the only reason people used it was because it was cheap and had a decent tank (meaning they were targeted last and didn't die first... classic camper motive). Just FYI: I fly pretty much all Amarr ships (tech1 and tech2) except battleships up to Command Ships except for Interdictors and I'm pretty happy with the changes. I think they bring something exciting to Amarr for a change. I think my Curse will be OK. Plus, I can even see how the NOSs help the cap sucking laser boats by making them harder to NOS because those laser boats can play with the cap level to keep the enemies from NOSing them.
Grackis	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:29:00 - [634] Ok im going to go through every Ridiculus Statment CCP has just announced. Quote: The problem, then, is that Nosferatus allows one to both leech energy off a target and at the same time neutralize its capacitor. This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved.] Are you Kidding me We have to Sacrafice Our High slots for a very SMALL amount of Capacitor Neut compared to an Actaully Neut this statment is ridiculus the Compromise is we LOSE OUR HIGH SLOTS for a SMALL amount of Capacitor Neut. Quote: Under the new system, the amount transferred by a Nosferatu is based on the relative capacitor charge levels (measured in percent). Energy is only transferred while the charge percentage of the targeted ship is higher than the charge percentage of the ship that activated the Nosferatu. This means that the target is no worse off (energy wise) than the attacking ship. Ok So now the only real difference between heavy Bos and Small is the RANGE? what a joke so.. if u use a Heavy nose on a Frigate it has the same effect as it would on a BS % wise so on a BS u take out 120 CAP on a Frig u take out like 10 That is absolutly Ridiculus and NOT only that you can no longer NOS someone to 0? OK Explain to me the LOGIC behind why this Decive known as an "Energy Vampire" cannot LEECH a target to 0? u VAMP energy from the Target! not "Borrow" Energy u VAMP#!!@#
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:30:00 - [635] WTB SACRILEGE ! BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:34:00 - [636] Originally by: Cythrawl Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Suicide Joe Nos changes, just don't make any sense to me. I agree NOS is overpowered, and needs a change, but the change makes no sense to me. Why does it stop if a ship has less cap than me? I can think of no easy explanation, other than "cause it does" As if Nosferatu has any sort of plausible explanation at all. Capacitors store charge. How can you get a charge in one capacitor to flow to another capacitor with a higher charge? That doesn't make any sense, either, yet it's just how Nosferatu has worked all along. Multiple capacitor cells along a line, each broken into switchable links, so that an empty one can be filled from a full one. I say they just make an anti-nos module that lowers the effectiveness of nos... They did. The new module will be built into every ship. Amarr recons will have to use Neuts + cap boosters. ...
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:35:00 - [637] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 20:35:41 Quote: Ok So now the only real difference between heavy Bos and Small is the RANGE? what a joke so.. if u use a Heavy nose on a Frigate it has the same effect as it would on a BS % wise so on a BS u take out 120 CAP on a Frig u take out like 10 That is absolutly Ridiculus and NOT only that you can no longer NOS someone to 0? OK Explain to me the LOGIC behind why this Decive known as an "Energy Vampire" cannot LEECH a target to 0? u VAMP energy from the Target! not "Borrow" Energy u VAMP#!!@# This latest proposal to nerf NOS is obviously an outgrowth of European socialism.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:36:00 - [638] Originally by: LvxOccvlta The Curse/Pilgrim were the only two capable ships in Amarr's entire fleet. And if you are one of those guys who sunk all your SP into training a passive drake, a NOS domi, or a t2 sniper Rokh then I have no sympathy for you either. No, actually I can fly just about anything. And no, they weren't. The Arbitrator, Armageddon, Crusader and Absolution are very good. I fly them all. I don't see them being nerfed. A friend has had excellent results in a really bizarre Maller setup (no, not nos, not ACs), and the Apoc can snipe with Tachyons perfectly well. Amarr have problems that need fixing, but you are hindering constructive advocacy by cheap shots like "only two capable ships". Please don't exaggerate. Logoffs
Johho Bulon Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:37:00 - [639] Edited by: Johho Bulon on 31/07/2007 20:38:52 Thanks to the guy who'd vote me as president and all the other kind words. I was thinking about this at work today and I think that an exciting way to counter Nos would be to add a nos feedback pump module to the high mods. An anti energy vampire. Have us able to load it with cap charges and and when a nos is activated you counter activate and the ultra high charge of a Cap booster 800 surges up the nos energy chain and damages the module, which after all, is designed to suck only so much in one gulp. Feedback enough and you bust the mod, or even the entire rack. The Nosing player has to choose, does he stop nossing avoiding further risk to his mod or even rack, or does he continue to drain and hope that the opponent runs out of charges before the nos pops. The game mechanics, via Thermodynamics, are already in place to simulate module and rack damage, lets make use of them in a new creative way. This way instead of Nos becoming a genuinely worthless 'balanced' tool for PVP that is fit only for reprocessing, the sort I tut at when I find them in rat cans, it remains a deadly weapon, but one that runs real risks if used under cautiously and over liberally. In short, instead of this 'interesting' change, which simply results in Devs deciding exactly how a ship should be fitted and flown (some decisions you make are good, others bad), you give us the power, the players, to make our own decisions. Do we leave out a blaster or missile launcher and fit an AEV? Or do we take the risk that our opponent wont have nos because he is worried about the AEV we may have. Put an element of excitment into the choice of whether to use Nos please, instead of simply nullifying that choice into a simple shift to neuts. --------------- Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:37:00 - [640] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 20:43:07 Originally by: Cmdr Sy And no, they weren't. The Arbitrator, Armageddon, Crusader and Absolution are very good. I fly them all. I don't see them being nerfed. A friend has had excellent results in a really bizarre Maller setup (no, not nos, not ACs), and the Apoc can snipe with Tachyons perfectly well. Amarr have problems that need fixing, but you are hindering constructive advocacy by cheap shots like "only two capable ships". Please don't exaggerate. But there is oh, a 500% price and skill difference between those ships and TECH TWO CRUISERS. Tachyon snipers work very well? What? Also, did you say excellent results on a bizarre Maller setup? Hah, you just lost your credibility with me. I was going to make an obvious point but it's no use.

Areaulius Caldari Mad Mercs	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:41:00 - [641] I don't know if anyone suggested this in addition to the current change... The number of Nos/Neuts you can fit on a ship should be restricted in some way. Nos/Neuts were meant to be for utility, not as a main weapon system. Set them up similar to the Warfare link modules if you want to fit more Nos/Neut. At base, ships can fit two Nos/Neut, if you want more fit some sort of mid slot item that allows more Nos/Neut modules. The current change is okay I guess. I would probably have changed it to drain a percentage of the targets cap, getting almost none at a certain percentage, but at least draining some.
Kitia STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:48:00 - [642] The problem I see with this at the moment, is that it forces the curse and pilgrim to seek cap recovery in other ways, for example a cap booster. It also forces the ship's to move to using for example turret/nut/nos combo. As fitting all nos now is pointless, this leaves the ship seriously short of grid. On test I fitted 2 turrets 2 nos and 1 nut with normal tank and damps/tracking disruptor. But I needed to fit 2 T2 Grid rigs just to get a fit even with best named all-round. I think in order to keep these ships balanced and true to there roles they need the grid changed to fit these other things as options. Kitia
silken mouth	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:49:00 - [643] Originally by: PhantomVyper WHAT?!?! "In general i dont like missile ships since they are not very useful in PVP" - Do you know ANYTHING about this game?!?! The reason "missile ships" aren't regarded as very usefull in PVP is because they where all Caldari, i.e. shield tankers, and so had to sacrifice their tank to tackle, use speed mods, EW, etc. Guess what the Khanid ships are? Armour tankers, so this isn't an issue anymore. No, there are also considered bad PVP ships, because compared to other ships of their class, they basically have no alpha, missiles can be outrun, and targets can warp off, before being hit. Allthough i admit that this wont be a problem with rockets Originally by: PhantomVyper And a Sacriledge can't kill a Caracal because the Caracal has more mids and a bigger range?!?! WTF are you smoking! I can kill non-AM Caracals in my Punisher! With 2 midslots and a range of 2km on my guns! And i can kill a BS in an Ibis, if the BS pilot is a ******... Whats your point? All i am saying is that with these changes these ships would be too predictable, because they would be always limited to close range. Which is bad for the amarr pilot for three reasons: 1. he can only fit short range rocket/missile weapons (so much choice, how exciting...) 2. he and is tactic are very predictable ("look, a sacrilege..., lets take him at 20k..") 3. all pure amarr pilots (and dont tell me nobody trains just one race, i wouldnt, but some people did) loose almost half of the t2 combat ships they can use...
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:51:00 - [644] Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is oh, a 500% price and skill difference between those ships and TECH TWO CRUISERS. Tachyon snipers work very well? What? Also, did you say excellent results on a bizarre Maller setup? Hah, you just lost your credibility with me. Hey, don't go back to cruisers. You said "only two capable ships in Amarr's entire fleet". I gave examples of other ships which I have found to perform fine. You can't hop around the scope of the discussion. I don't care how little a Crusader costs with respect to a recon, and I can assure you a good Gankageddon costs as much. Within their respective classes, they are great. Yes, Tachyon snipers work on Apocs, 160km+ range, 10-11x damage modifier, RoF of a few seconds, flies with one or two dozen friends OK and helps instapop BS. Also you can switch to MF L and at medium range top killmails for damage. 425mm rails on a Megathron aren't bad either, but given the nature of the combat in question, I really don't care which I take or which someone else brings. And yes, I am sure all the people my corpmate ate felt a bit sheepish after being owned by a Maller. It can be a one-trick pony, but if you choose the situation, the trick works again and again. Logoffs
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:51:00 - [645] Originally by: Grackis Quote: The problem, then, is that Nosferatus allows one to both leech energy off a target and at the same time neutralize its capacitor. This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved.] Are you Kidding me We have to Sacrafice Our High slots for a very SMALL amount of Capacitor Neut compared to an Actaully Neut this statment is ridiculus the Compromise is we LOSE OUR HIGH SLOTS for a SMALL amount of Capacitor Neut. You might want to rerun the numbers there if you think your effect on both your and your target's cap is negligible and that a neut is much more significant. Every 24 seconds, a Heavy Unstable neut makes you 100 cap better off than your opponent. Every 24 seconds, a Heavy Diminishing nos makes you 240 cap better off than your opponent. If you feel that you're making a huge sacrifice to fit nos, though, then don't fit nos. _____ CPU Love
wolfgarrr Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:54:00 - [646] Wait a second.. I think CCP is missing a C infront of their name. shouldn't it be CCCP ?
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 20:55:00 - [647] Originally by: Cmdr Sy blah blah... Apoc can snipe with Tachyons perfectly well. blah blah Please don't exaggerate. Yeah please dont. Why on earth would you pay approximately 33 million ISK extra for a ship that does around one tachyon II less damage? Actually, don't answer that, it wasn't a question. CCP, is that the best you got? Hit me again, the left side now! ------ When you say "no one's perfect", Chuck Norris takes this as a personal insult.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:04:00 - [648] Originally by: Vito Parabellum Why on earth would you pay approximately 33 million ISK extra for a ship that does around one tachyon II less damage? Actually, don't answer that, it wasn't a question. CCP, is that the best you got? Hit me again, the left side now! Because the Armageddon's cap doesn't handle Tachyons well enough. I don't want to be a quarter of an hour into a fleet battle in a Tachyon (or mega beam for that matter) Armageddon ever again. Wrong tool for the job in my experience. Given enough time, the damage comparison swings the other way. Logoffs
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:12:00 - [649] People are just going to have to learn to fit cap regeneration modules or lvl up their cap skills. Instead of stacking nos, they will be stacking other things. As for the Curse, energy Neut is now just as good and will do the job of a complete drain. Its not just going to be "free" cap any more. Honestly, I have never seen a point in neuts except for their lower equipment cpu/pg requirements over a nos. Why? Because nos was free cap and had zero drawbacks in combat.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:17:00 - [650] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 21:20:37 Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 31/07/2007 21:18:25 Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is oh, a 500% price and skill difference between those ships and TECH TWO CRUISERS. Tachyon snipers work very well? What? Also, did you say excellent results on a bizarre Maller setup? Hah, you just lost your credibility with me. Hey, don't go back to cruisers. You said "only two capable ships in Amarr's entire fleet". I gave examples of other ships which I have found to perform fine. You can't hop around the scope of the discussion. I don't care how little a Crusader costs with respect to a recon, and I can assure you a good Gankageddon costs as much. Within their respective classes, they are great. Yes, Tachyon snipers work on Apocs, 160km+ range, 10-11x damage modifier, RoF of a few seconds, flies with one or two dozen friends OK and helps instapop BS. Also you can switch to MF L and at medium range top killmails for damage. 425mm rails on a Megathron aren't bad either, but given the nature of the combat in question, I really don't care which I take or which someone else brings. And yes, I am sure all the people my corpmate ate felt a bit sheepish after being owned by a Maller. It can be a one-trick pony, but if you choose the situation, the trick works again and again. We're talking about cruisers because tech two amarr cruisers were built to be NOS boats. And this is a NOS thread. Now let me address your comment: Amarr Inties like the Crusader get beat at their own game by Minmatar Inties. No explanation needed. A T1 Gankageddon is cheap as hell and can be trained in a matter of weeks, and destroyed by a T1 Drake in a matter of minutes. By comparison, a Force Recon, taking MONTHS to train and costing much, much more...should, on principle, be able to destroy a Gankageddon and a Drake at the same time. And they can. Tachyon Snipers are a laugh, since get beat at their own game by Gallente. They can only get off a few shots before the cap is dry. They cost way too much for minimal return. Plus they have no real tank. Rokh, please. And I won't even talk about the comedy Maller. That thing even sucks at being a flying brick. There is NO fitting you can tell me that hasn't already been tried to make that thing even half-way usable. I'll own your friend's Maller with a Thorax, and you can choose any setup you like. Amarr HACs can't compare either-- not with HACs like the Vagabond running circles around outside of optimal while pinging it to pieces. And that brings me to my point. The Curse/Pilgrim were innocent victims in this proposed NOS castration. The rest of the Amarr series of ships require NOS to keep up a tank, and if those ships can only have as much cap as its dying victim, this NOS nerf is not a buff to the amarr, but instead a very devastating nerf. I'm just glad I cross-trained Gallente.

Helena OfThorns	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:20:00 - [651] what about NOS drones? does the change affect them too ? if yes, then how? do they have "cap" ?
Gawain Edmond	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:23:00 - [652] ok after reading most of the thread (i realised i could have stopped at page 2 and not missed anything) i have come to realise that most the amarr players here 1) don't like the nos nerf even though it pretty much makes all amarr immune to nos as it's kinda difficult to use as much nos as a active armour tanking light show and 2) most amarr players in this thread want the khanid ships to be just like the new ones only with lasers and more choice in damage types... ok i like the nos nerf i'm happy to drain someone elses cap as fast as my own let them see how long cap lasts when you're spewing out lasers then see if they moan that lasers are fine and don't need a cap use reduction you have to train missiles? no you don't just don't use the new T2 ships wow problem solved it's not like they were any good before vengence had more mid slots than a retribution but did naff all damage and couldn't tank all that well come on none of you REALLY wanted shield tanking laser ships did you? or would you then moan that you had to train shield skills? see where i'm going stop moaning the changes are good you have a chance to fly something different that has an uber tank just like an amarr ship is ment to have p.s. please change the rocket launcher description i don't want to train up missiles and have to use... Quote: A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system.
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:23:00 - [653] I like the khanid changes a lot. The problem with the nos is it screws the amarr hard. Laser boats aren't the most effective right now. I would like to see the nerf happen then have amarr ships get nos bonuses. Instead of the crappy laser cap bonus they get give them all a nos/neut bonus similar to what the curse has now. Then the amarr become the nos specialists. Nos the enemy ships and then finish them off with lasers. Make the amarr the masters of cap! Amarr would be effective again. And they'd have an entirely different playstyle from the other races. My .02 isk.
NUBIARN MAJORITY	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:27:00 - [654] Well i initialy thought, well i best not type that, to the nos changes. Then i calmed down looked at my curse and pilgrim and thought about it. All i can say is i endorse the changes as with slight tacticle and fitting changes and i mean slight both these ships will still work great, in fact a shade better than before. As with all changes adapt thats the only way with thinking out of the box instead of whineing. also if you think about it som other ships not that i`m going to mention them or there setups actually become more useful at nos and nueting muhahaha. PS. the damnation will tank like hell, the heretic will be better than the flycatcher and the sac will still suck. so in summary good patch adapt or cry
Leo Balthur Koshaku Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:29:00 - [655] Edited by: Leo Balthur on 31/07/2007 21:29:38 yay for killing amarr recons \o/ gallente wimn once again, tbh if nos would be stacking nerfed it would be ok. now after the changes how do devs think a curse can dry someone's cap ? EDIT: or change it to sth like that if the target ship has less cap, the cap gets killed but you dont gain any Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Red Harvest Originally by: VJ Maverick Best Fleet Commander? Hmm. it's a 3-way tie between Admiral Thrawn, Mon Mothma, and Admiral Akbar. Not even close! Admiral Thrawn i
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:33:00 - [656] Sacrilege: 5 missile hardpoints. Eagle: 4 turrets hardpoints. Seek the error. If it's THAT hard to change the ship models (Moa, Eagle, Ferox) and they are made under 3DS Max, send them to me, I'll fix it for you. I rejoice for our Amarr friends, the new Khanid ships look very nice on paper, but FFS is it possible to have some punch on the Caldari turret ships, pretty please? ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:34:00 - [657] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Vito Parabellum Why on earth would you pay approximately 33 million ISK extra for a ship that does around one tachyon II less damage? Actually, don't answer that, it wasn't a question. CCP, is that the best you got? Hit me again, the left side now! Because the Armageddon's cap doesn't handle Tachyons well enough. I don't want to be a quarter of an hour into a fleet battle in a Tachyon (or mega beam for that matter) Armageddon ever again. Wrong tool for the job in my experience. Given enough time, the damage comparison swings the other way. How about you add around 10M iskies, get 2 ccc rigs and a higher cap recharge than the apoc, and according to you, the damage comparison would swing again in the long run! But wait, there is more! For a measly 10M isk we will throw in ANOTHER TACHYON worth of dps if you want for those more common, shorter fleet fights! And a free highslot! Your gangmates will be thrilled! ------ When you say "no one's perfect", Chuck Norris takes this as a personal insult.
R3DSKULL Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:36:00 - [658] Originally by: wolfgarrr Wait a second.. I think CCP is missing a C infront of their name. shouldn't it be CCCP ? Ummm no that names already taken
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:38:00 - [659] Originally by: Vito Parabellum Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Vito Parabellum Why on earth would you pay approximately 33 million ISK extra for a ship that does around one tachyon II less damage? Actually, don't answer that, it wasn't a question. CCP, is that the best you got? Hit me again, the left side now! Because the Armageddon's cap doesn't handle Tachyons well enough. I don't want to be a quarter of an hour into a fleet battle in a Tachyon (or mega beam for that matter) Armageddon ever again. Wrong tool for the job in my experience. Given enough time, the damage comparison swings the other way. How about you add around 10M iskies, get 2 ccc rigs and a higher cap recharge than the apoc, and according to you, the damage comparison would swing again in the long run! But wait, there is more! For a measly 10M isk we will throw in ANOTHER TACHYON worth of dps if you want for those more common, shorter fleet fights! And a free highslot! Your gangmates will be thrilled! Say it aint so! The Amarr BS needs to waste precious rig slots, just to make it even with the other races? WOW! And it's still got a flimsy tank! [/derail]
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:39:00 - [660] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 31/07/2007 21:41:12 Originally by: LvxOccvlta I'm just glad I cross-trained Gallente. I cross-trained Gallente also, but still fly Amarr a lot of the time because I find I can get around the limitations no problem. Nos needed addressing because Amarr ships generally died to it rather than benefitted from it, so needless to say I disagree with you on that score. The Curse and Pilgrim can be adapted, laser Amarr will actually stand a better chance at close range now. Gankageddon vs Drake comparison does not hold up because the problem is with the Drake, not the Gankageddon. T1 Gankageddon is cheap as hell, love it, but T2 with rigs remotely tanked is worth the extra ISK and investment in teamwork. Yes, Blasterthrons do it well too. I don't care, I'm glad Amarr also have the option. Makes a forewarned opponent split their ECM. Yes, I can do Megathron and Rokh sniping also. Yes, they're good. The Apoc could be improved in that role, but that's another boost thread. I agree Amarr HACs have not been great for PVP for a while, but let's see how the Sacrilege change turns out. Inties, who cares what the inty vs inty tree is these days, Crow pwns all. Thorax vs Maller, it's been tried. Look, I agree that Amarr have their problems and need to be boosted, but you need to get used to a nos nerf being part of the boost. The EM damage thing and weapon cap intensiveness we can come to later. In the meantime, the sky is not falling. Logoffs

Photon Divine Retribution	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:45:00 - [661] Originally by: Leo Balthur Edited by: Leo Balthur on 31/07/2007 21:29:38 EDIT: or change it to sth like that if the target ship has less cap, the cap gets killed but you dont gain any That's genious, they should do that, at least to the curse/pilgrim
Drykor Minmatar Warriors of the Einherjar Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:47:00 - [662] Originally by: General StarScream someone on the fourm said it quite well Edited by: SauronTheMage on 25/03/2007 22:24:01 I would suggest getting someone in your gang to equip damps / ecm. If you can get a minnie & gallente recon in the gang, even better. Drop the domi's range under 15km-20km and there you go. The trick is having the right gang members, and the right modules on your ships. Nos isn't overpowered, people just don't know how to fit to counter it! Yes, because a ship that needs multiple attackers (even battleships) to die isn't overpowered at all
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:47:00 - [663] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 31/07/2007 21:41:12 Originally by: LvxOccvlta I'm just glad I cross-trained Gallente. I cross-trained Gallente also, but still fly Amarr a lot of the time because I find I can get around the limitations no problem. Nos needed addressing because Amarr ships generally died to it rather than benefitted from it, so needless to say I disagree with you on that score. The Curse and Pilgrim can be adapted, laser Amarr will actually stand a better chance at close range now. Gankageddon vs Drake comparison does not hold up because the problem is with the Drake, not the Gankageddon. T1 Gankageddon is cheap as hell, love it, but T2 with rigs remotely tanked is worth the extra ISK and investment in teamwork. Yes, Blasterthrons do it well too. I don't care, I'm glad Amarr also have the option. Makes a forewarned opponent split their ECM. Yes, I can do Megathron and Rokh sniping also. Yes, they're good. The Apoc could be improved in that role, but that's another boost thread. I agree Amarr HACs have not been great for PVP for a while, but let's see how the Sacrilege change turns out. Inties, who cares what the inty vs inty tree is these days, Crow pwns all. Thorax vs Maller, it's been tried. Look, I agree that Amarr have their problems and need to be boosted, but you need to get used to a nos nerf being part of the boost. The EM damage thing and weapon cap intensiveness we can come to later. In the meantime, the sky is not falling. Agreed-- but the sky fell for Amarr Recons. I recommend they implement a 20% damage bonus to Drone Damage and Mining Yield per Level to make up for it.
Kusariqqu Gallente CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:52:00 - [664] I dont like the nos changes one bit but i guess we have to go with it. But why do ccp constantly downgrade races and ships to satisfy wining noobs on the forums?? Nos was fine and it was balance, it did exactly what it said on the tin, sucks energy from one ship to another. It doesnt do that no more!!! so is the new nos going to be called something different? Nos was easy counterable use ECM or speed. Most cruisers used the nos to keep a healthy balance of cap, other ships like domis or phoons you expect nos so you dont enagage with anything small. It was that simple, common sence was your perfect solution to nos, just as it is not to engange a vaga with a ceptor. The khanis mk2's well im not so sure of either, i was under the impression that the amarr would never use anyother weapons but weapons of light, but if the devs want to change the history of the characters to suit forum *****s so be it. No to the changes... Fix the current problems with the servers and the constant lag, been on the game for 3 yrs now and the same problems get pushed asside until it his a critical point then a hotfix comeout that works for a month then we all get dropped out again. Booo at ccp for not doing there job correctly. Yey for every1 who has put up with the constant crap for to long, I salute you
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:52:00 - [665] Originally by: Santa Anna If you neut the BS when you are both near your optimal recharge, then nos him, he will be below his optimal, you will be above yours. Yes. But in case you haven't noticed it, a curse or pilgrim have weak dps. There is literary nothing which stops you target from stopping their tank for a few secs till it is back at optimal recharge and continue tanking there. Yes, you just have killed 500 out of 8k HP that way, which you cannot repeat since your own caprecharge is needed by EW + tackling and you won't get any cap from him from your nosses. How "useful". Get a clue. Your "tactics" are at the same time utterly obvious and utterly ineffective. Quote: Someone upthread took a Claymore and an Abaddon 2:1 on Sisi with the changes, so the Curse can't be that bad. With a talisman set which you choose to overread or ignore. There are pretty stories about shieldtankers with crystal sets taking out multiple targets, too. Also, the mechanics for 2 ships are completely different to a single ship since you can put your nosses on your secondary target and your neuts on your primary. Quote: When the curse injects an 800 charge (say) it can neutralize 3 800 charges with that energy. The target is also presumably using energy from its injector, so if you both have injectors it's a war of attrition. If your target ship has a cargo bay smaller than 1035 or so, you should have a pretty good shot. Assuming one of your charges will automatically disable 3 of his, which isn't the case. The amount of cap is "hidden", so you have to guess when to drain it. Which will result unless you have the 2nd sight in quite a few wasted shots. Quote: Most of my active tank pvp fits use unsustainable rep + cap inject. I don't think I fly a ship that a well-piloted curse couldn't kill with the right setup, even after the nerf. Unsustainable if they run it constantly. Which they not necessarily need to do vs the weak dps of a curse. Quote: IMO the TD bonus is more important than the nos bonus for gang work. Disabling 3 turret BS does more for my gang than capping out 1. If I take fire, I can always move into nos range of one and nos to run my tank, even after the change. Excuse me, but now I am starting to plain out disbelieve you that you ever flown one. Going vs multiple BS into range and TANK them? A dual rep pilgrim with max skills and rep amount and repair can tank at peak around 330 dps. If each BS is completely disabled by a single TD (which they won't unless they are all right next to each other) and there are no other hostile ships, even if every BS only sends unbonused 5 medium drones on it would kill that tank. You seem to have no real experience with that ship and believe some disinformed fairy tales about "OMG it has an uber tank!!!". And in either case, the whole point is that a pilgrim can only use half it's boni when in a gang. An arazu can damp (which is a better disablerer than TDs) and scram. A rapier can (technically) paint and web. A falcon can use the full extend of it's boni as well (which is in general more effective than TDs as well). The pilgrim is no gang ship in its current state.
Alejah Anshi	Posted - 2007.07.31 21:58:00 - [666] [poem].. an new ugly time for khanid first wie tanked shield and had lasers then we had to tank armor and all shield hp was gone now we have to train for missiles and throw away all whispering lasers how many changes to ships, tank and guns, will have khanid pilots to suffer in future? why do you not change minmatar to hybirds and caldari to lasers and gallente to rockets as you do with khanid? in future we will get a ship with a mixed hybrid-laser-projectil-missile slot - correct ? who gave you that insane idea? expanding_kos_list
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:00:00 - [667] Edited by: Wyliee on 31/07/2007 21:59:52 Originally by: Donathan Slade Honestly, I have never seen a point in neuts except for their lower equipment cpu/pg requirements over a nos. neuts require more PG and less CPU than noz
Iog Krugar The Rising Stars Dark Horizon Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:00:00 - [668] Originally by: Helena OfThorns what about NOS drones? does the change affect them too ? if yes, then how? do they have "cap" ? they actually are NEUT drones, if that answers the question. and imho they are the best way mess with the opponents cap injectors since their cycle time is a lot faster than that of the hvy neut. --- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods
Baynex Amarr Lasciate Ogne Speranza	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:03:00 - [669] so for the next patch.... Dominix (Battleship) * Hardpoints: 6 launchers * Fitting: 240tf , 1000mw * Drone Bay: 50m3 Bonuses * 5% bonus to Cruise Missiles per BS level * 5% bonus to max velocity per BS level ñ~Baynex
Luna Nilaya Black-Mesa THE V I G I L	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:10:00 - [670] Edited by: Luna Nilaya on 31/07/2007 22:10:33 WTF CCP? Hire better designers, that NOS nerf is just ********. Oh, and thanks for stealing 25 days wort of skillpoints to train for a ship that is now going to be useless(Curse).

Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:15:00 - [671] Edited by: Long Fang on 31/07/2007 22:18:21 Sooooooo I should do what with my maxed gunnery skills now? Just to clear this matter up, Amarr .... Caldari two separate races eh? If i wanted to cross train that many races i'd have made a mimitar character! And as Kus said above isn't there some old RP story about the Emperor saying lasers only eh? So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again oh and thanx for screwing the dmanation up, the ship doesn't have enough grid as it is. And for the record yes. you can't please everyone all of the time. But why is it that i (and amarr in general) never seem to be on the happy side of things. More CPU on nano's help amarr my eye.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:18:00 - [672] Originally by: Asterixm thanks a lot ccp i just finished heavy assault ship lvl5, now i can't fly sacrilege because i have 0 sp in missile great job Since you had the patience to train up HAC 5 - I am sure you have the patience to spent a week or two training up missiles. A weeks worth of missile skills is surprisingly quite effective. Perhaps a month for pimp missiles skills + t2 HAM's. Either way, do you really fly that Sac's? The only people I know that fly sacs do so because they are either doing pve or they want a cheap zealot. -- Billion Isk Mission
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:20:00 - [673] Since you had the patience to train up HAC 5 - I am sure you have the patience to spent a week or two training up missiles. A weeks worth of missile skills is surprisingly quite effective. Perhaps a month for pimp missiles skills + t2 HAM's. ] -Cough- pure Amarr, some of us don't wanna have Caldari missile *****s in the empire eh.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:21:00 - [674] Originally by: Long Fang So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again No you dont. You only need, 400-500k Missile skills for t2 hams + supporting skills to be effective. Missiles are very easy to train, unlike gunnery. I know - I have both -- Billion Isk Mission
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:24:00 - [675] Edited by: Long Fang on 31/07/2007 22:27:34 Edited by: Long Fang on 31/07/2007 22:26:42 Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again No you dont. You only need, 400-500k Missile skills for t2 hams + supporting skills to be effective. Missiles are very easy to train, unlike gunnery. I know - I have both 500k in missiles vs my 10mill in gunnery, yeah thats gonna be the same What this boils down to is that i've trained pure amarr and maxed it and now i'm being penalized for creating a focused char, i guess CCP likes noobs who train the shotgun approach to skill training. Fire it at yeh head and train what sticks eh
Layrex Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:27:00 - [676] /signed
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:31:00 - [677] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again No you dont. You only need, 400-500k Missile skills for t2 hams + supporting skills to be effective. Missiles are very easy to train, unlike gunnery. I know - I have both 500k in missiles vs my 10mill in gunnery, yeah thats gonna be the same Yep. 500k sp to be effective with Missiles vs 5mil+ Gunnery to be effective with Lasers. It really is that easy. Missiles are fine for close range stuff. At long range (e.g 100km+) missiles are useless, and thats where your 10mil+ gunnery skills kick in. Apples and oranges. I too have pimp gunnery skills, and pimp missile skills - it really is a shock for Amarr pilots when they relise how easy it is to train for missiles. -- Billion Isk Mission
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:51:00 - [678] cal/min/gal knew they had to train for 2 things before this patch. amarr never needed to train for anything other than lasers. so for the people posting aboot how everyone else needs to thats fine, save if they added another weapon req to use your ships with a new patch, i think youd be unhappy . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
Iohan Sjet Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:22:00 - [679] Damn, Amarrian Assault frigates were relatively cheap ( < 10mil) during a recent regional price check. It looks like this may drive the price back up again. There goes my cheap AF plan.....
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:22:00 - [680] 25 pages and nada from the dev's Even a simple, "we're looking into it" would suffice. On a side note.. this thread has to be hell on the Forum GMs... The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(

Captin Lawdogg Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:35:00 - [681] Why is the solution always to NERF? I mean things can be fixed without a nerf. I hate NOS Domis but guess what? if I wanted to pop one I bring someone with ECM so the Domi can't use his NOS, surely there are others that did the same. I'm getting tired of reading the patch notes and everytime theres another nerf. How about instead of nerfing you add something to the game to counter the mod/ship in question rather then taking the easy way and nerfing it? It's really annoying to develop tactics either for or against something and then it gets nerfed. Nerfing is easy, apparently creating new items for the game is difficult.
SunTzuRaven Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:36:00 - [682] Originally by: vile56 cal/min/gal knew they had to train for 2 things before this patch. amarr never needed to train for anything other than lasers. so for the people posting aboot how everyone else needs to thats fine, save if they added another weapon req to use your ships with a new patch, i think youd be unhappy . you don't have to use these ships, just go fly normal amarr laser boats if you love lasers so much ________________________________________ <("<) <('')> (>")>
DestroyerofX	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:39:00 - [683] I really don't see the advantage in the NOS nerf. I mean anyone who trains the skill can use a NOS. So I'm not sure how it's unbalanced. Sure I read the logic behind it. I'm a curse pilot, now what do I do ? Yeah I know I can put neuts on there. But still, I trained a while to fly this thing. Shouldn't I have an edge ? I put in my time...everyone who flies a curse did. There should be benefits for being an older player and have more SP. You should be HARDER to kill. In the right hands any weapon is dangerous. And if you think about it, if a BS with a couple of e500's goes up againse a frig, why they heck wouldn't I be able to drain his cap completely ? He's outclassed. It happens. This just makes no sense to me. you planning on exitnction of Amarr ? I think this NOS nerf is a bad idea. I would ask to NOT put this any upcoming patch.
Gan Ja	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:43:00 - [684] As an Amarr loyalist, I have never learned to use missiles effectively. It is greatly troubling that my Sacriliges will now be mostly useless until I spend a considerable amount of time learning missile skills. I agree that adding launcher hardpoints is a good idea, I disagree with the idea of removing turret hardpoints from an Amarr ship, especially from a fantastic ship like the Sacrilige. It is easy to add a feature to the game, but very difficult to remove it without displeasing some players. I would urge the developers to reconsider removing all turrets from the Sacrilige. -gj /emote starts training missles
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:45:00 - [685] Edited by: Long Fang on 31/07/2007 23:48:06 Originally by: vile56 cal/min/gal knew they had to train for 2 things before this patch. amarr never needed to train for anything other than lasers. so for the people posting aboot how everyone else needs to thats fine, save if they added another weapon req to use your ships with a new patch, i think youd be unhappy . Well Amarr where in theroy the 2nd drone race but.... thats a bit of a jump i admit. I was planning to do missiles at some point to make the sac more effective, but there is no longer a choice about it. with this the sac has 0 turrets, to take an example, the eagle can still be fitted as a missile boat, i know bonus' for guns but the opition for missiles was still there. Here we have ships with NO abilty to use there races weapons. I think that a HAM sac should be quite fun to use, but theres no choice about it now, b4 it was missiles or now its missiles or find something else to fly. Same with the malidiciton, vengenace, hereitc and tbh the damnation as well, this hasn;t allowed us to use missiles effectively its completely removed the abilty to use amarr weapons on these amarr ships. As much as i like to be able to try different things and change the setups from the 'norm' I'm not caldari. lasers are my primary and now i can;t fit them on some of my fav ships. A bit of balance perhaps an ability to choose. you don't have to use these ships, just go fly normal amarr laser boats if you love lasers so much So as a gallente char you'd be happy if we say removed your abilty to use drones on an ishkur? an ishtar? an eos?
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:59:00 - [686] er one thing are we gonna get more cargo on these ships that now have to carry ammo and didn't have to before hand? 25 pages and no CCP response eh.....
Rens Broker	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:02:00 - [687] Edited by: Rens Broker on 01/08/2007 00:02:35 To me it looks like boost of Matars, becuse they needn't so much capacitor like Ammar and Gallente and can use neutralizers instead nosferatu. And this is nerf of some good ships like Curse and Dominix that can fly not worse than Vagabonds and Tempests before patch -_- P.S. that ships was writen by me for example ^_~
Jhereck	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:15:00 - [688] Edited by: Jhereck on 01/08/2007 00:18:44 Is there some real Amarr pilots or just Curse/Pilgrim ones ?? Is it to hard to think/try (on sisi) before posting ?? The only thing I see is people who don't want to change their overpowered fit (understand full nos). How to kill an Amarr ship ?? Just suck his cap dry and you're done. What a challenge !! :) So now you will need to fit neut(s) if you want to do the same thing, and it will be wayyy more difficult :) Nos were designed to steal energy from enemies, but their ability to neutralize the enemy's capacitor was an error : there is another module to do that :) I understand gallente pilot's sadness because they will no more be able to kill amarr ship as fast as they were accustomed to do, but this was unavoidable : it was to easy to fit 4 nos and kill at least amarr ships without any challenge (if the amarr pilot fly for fun and fit lasers instead of one or two nos more than the enemy, which, in this case, are requiered to be able to run a decent armor tank while firing...). Curse/Pilgrim pilots just have to exchange one or two nos for neut or another module : so hard !! :) To conclude whith nos nerf : stop crying, nos had a problem until this patch and now they can do the job they were designed for. So let's speak of Khanid ships now : how many Amarr pilots were flying Sacrilege or Damnation ??? They were useless from an amarr point of vue. Now they can be fun to fly. The other Khanid ships are forced to be modded by the same way (from a RP point of vue). So it has to be tryed before crying, but it's really a good idea to try to make these ships usefull. And Amarr who are complaining because they will need to train missile skills should stop Eve and start WOW : what a pity to read that their 10M SP in gunnery will be loose whereas only Khanid Mk II are concerned by this modifications..... To conclude I want to thank CCP for these changes and encourage people to go on Sisi to try to balance them instead of crying like little children to whom one stole their toy. Thanks for reading.
Rens Broker	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:18:00 - [689] Edited by: Rens Broker on 01/08/2007 00:17:53 Jhereck, You not right about Galentians, now they will fit neutralizers + nosf so your capacitor will end quite fast
Deadly Desires Caldari System-Lords	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:18:00 - [690] This is a pretty heavy nerf on pilgrim/curse I think 1 solution to this would be to only apply the intended changes to ships without nos bonuses, thus leaving curses, pilgrims (and other nos skilled ships) with a particular role during combat and forcing all those other nos boats (domi`s and myrms) into fitting more appropriatly another idea would be to lower the activation costs of neuts on nos/neut specific ships so thats its not such a hit on there cap

Ryan Darkwolf Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:19:00 - [691] The Nos change has really messed up my active tank setup.... As an Ammar we tank ARMOR (pun intended)...and to tank armor you need Cap....which is something Ammar seriously hurt in...Ok Ok so the Khanid missle/armor hybrids will make up for it(yes I have trainded SOME missle skills)..but that isn't the point. The point is that Laserboats will no longer be able to keep up with any other ship type. Why you ask. Look at this...with the new Nos change I fire my already cap chewing lasers and lower my cap by ALOT...so I Nos my enemy...good for me...it regulates both capacitors (according to what Ive read in the forums) until both are at the same percentage (meaning that if I'm fighting annoying inties or Minnie fast ships well they will more than likely have less ca than me anyway with MWD.) So slowly but surely I will run out of cap...because my enemies ALWAYS will have more cap or be using missles to kill my laser fitted BS. This means..I can't fire my guns...I can't rep damage...I can't warp out. Well why don't you use a neut? Because moron...a Neut on a Bs causes it to drain my cap in order to neutralize my enemies cap...therefore I am LOSING cap...cap that I could be using to shoot stuff with. Don't get me wrong, i would love a khanid Apoc...I will be a missle spamming armor tank ***** with the coolest looking ship in the game...but it will make me lose the flavor of having lazors going BZZZZZT. So CCP...in order to fix what you have broken...I demand you lower lazer cap needs by 25 percent...it costs about 37 energy to fire a laser (i think I havent been playing recently) while it only costs about 15-20 energy to fire projectile or hybrid weapons... And now I have lost track of what I was talking about...damn crazy middle eastern time ------------------- New account on EvE-Online...$19.95 100 Day GTC...$49.95 2 Month supply of German beer...$200.00 Having your computer die because of Hello Kitty online...Priceless
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:27:00 - [692] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:30:26 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at AF or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage, assuming that a larger punch equals more explosive content, and given the trade-off of also packaging a guidance electronics payload: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing** in space!!!
Mr Li Suicidal Mercenaries	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:34:00 - [693] I really have to appreciate this balance; it is being so many things back into equilibrium. for example: a BS can no longer make an interceptor lose all cap with one module (unless that one mod is a neut). As a result the Assault Frigates, Eagle, and other long range cruisers and below have a new (old really) role. Or at least, the role isn't taken by the Heavy nos module. A BS now requires support, as it should. Amarr, arguably the cap race (in most cases) now isn't hurt as bad by their cap guzzling guns and have more cap (an advantage) to gamble with when it comes to using neutralizers. 2 of the worst t2 ships in game were given a new life (sac and damnation. Even if the current versions are tweaked, they are much, much better than previously. 2 of the best ships in game where brought down to an appropriate level (curse and pilgrim) cap boosters counter nos, and nos counters cap boosters. Using one or the other requires a tactical decision. If I am in the new Sacrilege and an nos ishtar decides to engage me, i know that when I am at 50% cap, i will still have 1000 more cap then the enemy. Therefore, using cap boosters will be a disadvantage. It's very interesting. overall I couldn't think of a better way to fix nos. As it is, nos is a neutralizer and then some. Nos should work on a principle where you can only take so much energy in relation to target cap. Before, there was no reason NOT to fit nos if you had an empty slot, there was no drawback aside from fitting an odd missile bay or turret. Now nos requires some more thought not only in the decision to fit it, but also in it's implementation in combat i have to commend this one change, which actually introduces myriad changes
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:46:00 - [694] I agree with a lot of the posters here that the NOS change is too complicated and radical. I agree that they need to be balanced, but there are far more elegant solutions, such as sig radius based balancing, stacking penalties, etc. The Khanid MkII ships sound pretty boring to fly and fit. There isn't too much versatility built in the setup options when you mandate both the hardpoint type and the module-type as much as you have here. Either do one, or the other, but doing both just makes the ships "one trick ponies," and not very interesting to play around with and use. Giving us greater options in our setups is better than radical specialization.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:47:00 - [695] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 01/08/2007 00:47:36 Originally by: Mr Li I really have to appreciate this balance; it is being so many things back into equilibrium. for example: a BS can no longer make an interceptor lose all cap with one module (unless that one mod is a neut). As a result the Assault Frigates, Eagle, and other long range cruisers and below have a new (old really) role. Or at least, the role isn't taken by the Heavy nos module. A BS now requires support, as it should. Amarr, arguably the cap race (in most cases) now isn't hurt as bad by their cap guzzling guns and have more cap (an advantage) to gamble with when it comes to using neutralizers. 2 of the worst t2 ships in game were given a new life (sac and damnation. Even if the current versions are tweaked, they are much, much better than previously. 2 of the best ships in game where brought down to an appropriate level (curse and pilgrim) cap boosters counter nos, and nos counters cap boosters. Using one or the other requires a tactical decision. If I am in the new Sacrilege and an nos ishtar decides to engage me, i know that when I am at 50% cap, i will still have 1000 more cap then the enemy. Therefore, using cap boosters will be a disadvantage. It's very interesting. overall I couldn't think of a better way to fix nos. As it is, nos is a neutralizer and then some. Nos should work on a principle where you can only take so much energy in relation to target cap. Before, there was no reason NOT to fit nos if you had an empty slot, there was no drawback aside from fitting an odd missile bay or turret. Now nos requires some more thought not only in the decision to fit it, but also in it's implementation in combat i have to commend this one change, which actually introduces myriad changes Some of what you re-stated simply is not true. Amarr does not have more cap. And the pilgrim is now useless.. compared to the disposable arbitrator.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:47:00 - [696] Can I have all your curses? I mean, since they'll be useless I'll buy em for maybe a couple isk and sell em for 100 or so. While I'm at it, can I have your domis? and pilgrims too? You guys whine more than my lil sister...
Rens Broker	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:04:00 - [697] Dominix suffer less than Curse, because you can fit nosf+neut and hold your and enemy capacitor on zero level. But Curse can't do that imho. I think input of dependence on enemy signature of nosf would be better. Or using nosf to steal all capa to 30% and if you want more - use neut
Falun Assad Caldari New Career Move Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:08:00 - [698] About the Nos solution: Sorry CCP, but this approach is nonsense, you have by now 25 pages full of reasons, so i wont go into detail. I would propose an alternate solution: small Nos drains 5%, medium 10% and heavy 15% of the energy present in the targets capacitor. This would mean that the longer you nos the lesser you get and it would also act as a stacking penalty. As for Khanid Mk2: please reread Samauls proposal, it was so much better, since he did not limit khanid ships to short range missiles/rockets and since he did not remove all turret points from the ships.
Veng3ance Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:26:00 - [699] Because its still on the test server. The Damnation change sucks! MAKE NOS DEPENDANT ON SIG RADIUS. Please, please, please change it before you release the patch!
Veng3ance Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:27:00 - [700] Originally by: Falun Assad As for Khanid Mk2: please reread Samauls proposal, it was so much better, since he did not limit khanid ships to short range missiles/rockets and since he did not remove all turret points from the ships. Oh, I would also like to agree with this post.

DestroyerofX	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:28:00 - [701] Originally by: Mr Li I really have to appreciate this balance; it is being so many things back into equilibrium. for example: a BS can no longer make an interceptor lose all cap with one module I think this is how it should be. A interceptor is outclassed by a BS. this make perfect sense. Like when a harpy attacked my alts raven, what did he expect. I shut his cap down and killed him. why shouldn't I be able to ? I'm in a BS ! Nature's way of saying hands off if you're smaller then me. And yes I know, I would have killed him anyway blah blah blah....but when a BS opens up on something smaller it should pwn it....cap or whatever. most interceptors outfly missles these days anyway, so please.
Rens Broker	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:28:00 - [702] Originally by: Veng3ance Because its still on the test server. The Damnation change sucks! MAKE NOS DEPENDANT ON SIG RADIUS. Please, please, please change it before you release the patch! About Damna +1 With less powergrid it will be worst comand ships in game
zeroh Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:48:00 - [703] I vote no changes plz
Antaean	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:50:00 - [704] No change !!!
DerArt1st	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:03:00 - [705] Edited by: DerArt1st on 01/08/2007 02:13:35 Originally by: Octavio Santillian The more I think about this the more laughable it is. Poor Amarr, I almost feel sorry for the slaving b-stards. Lets see: 1) Core issues with lasers/Omni tanks not addressed. 2) Only really good ships they had have been nerfed (though this had to happen because NOS is just stupid). 3) Now need to train entirely new tree to use half of their ships. 4) Forced into short range combat on half their ships. I see exactly the same here. The real usefull PVP ships i have atm are Curse/Pilgrim. After the patch they will suck(and i dont mean with nos) but i will have missiles that can fly 10km -> YAY! 350 Millions down the window for Heavy Assault Missiles. What a good trade. Is it possible to petition ur choice of Race? I really want to trade my skillpoints against gallente/minmatarstuff.
Blue Ryth Lasciate Ogne Speranza	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:15:00 - [706] The Nos patch is simply too radical to work. Even from a theoretical point of view (I know it is sci-fi, but the 'sci' is short for 'science'), what sort of module would only be able to limit the targets capacitor to the percentage of the aggressor? I mean seriously, it doesn't make sense. Not to mention, couldn't we just have nerfed the drain drastically (in essence upping the transfer percentage/efficiency) making all the modules simply less effective? In this new setup, I don't see the patch doing much but promoting blob tactics. The Nos has not really been nerfed at all, but open to a different style of use. A passive/active tanked ship could sacrifice its capacitor to completely eliminate a target's if only they had backup. Suicide purpose ships are already a common tactic, and I'd fear this would be a new one. ------ The Khanid topic is just depressing. The backstory is changing because the Kahnid ships lack direction!? For crying out loud, we could come up with something better. Maybe the ships were re-imagined for a better purpose. Suppose the shield technology was kept and instead of missiles went to projectiles? At least we're still using turrets and in the gunnery skill set. But missiles, of all things, are almost completely unused by Amarr pilots. The "if you don't like the change, fly different ships" argument is old. What if we took your Ravens and gave them bonuses to strip mining? Much like the Nos change, its just too arbitrary and radical. Besides, if nothing else, shouldn't there be an absolutely exuberant amount of warning involved with a change like this? We're talking about an entire branch of T2 ships completely changing its premise. Let's quit with the "Khanid ships were useless" junk because if they were all that bad, you wouldn't ever see them in space. And all that training into guns... we need a lot of time to get our skill tree switched over to the missile branch. --------- These changes are so radical that I don't think anyone can reliably predict the balance issues, which is part of the problem. Instead of fixing the problems in front of us, we just opened up Pandora's box. Now we've got entirely new ships with an entirely rethought energy vamp system. All I know, is I'm sure we won't get this right the first time and we are definitely taking a step back away from a balanced game.
SunTzuRaven Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:20:00 - [707] Originally by: Blue Ryth The Nos patch is simply too radical to work. Even from a theoretical point of view (I know it is sci-fi, but the 'sci' is short for 'science'), what sort of module would only be able to limit the targets capacitor to the percentage of the aggressor? I mean seriously, it doesn't make sense. Have you heard of osmosis? ________________________________________ <("<) <('')> (>")>
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:28:00 - [708] Edited by: vile56 on 01/08/2007 02:40:30 Originally by: SunTzuRaven Originally by: vile56 cal/min/gal knew they had to train for 2 things before this patch. amarr never needed to train for anything other than lasers. so for the people posting aboot how everyone else needs to thats fine, save if they added another weapon req to use your ships with a new patch, i think youd be unhappy . you don't have to use these ships, just go fly normal amarr laser boats if you love lasers so much show me a pvp non gang amarr t2 frig with enough mids to fit ab/mwd and scram/web. oh and uses lasers. oh and can kill a cruiser.. crusader you say? show me a cruiser that cant tank its dps. edit if ccp is so gunho about allowing ships to have dual weapon systems make it so it allows me to choose my abilitys for the sac or male or vengance, lets say i want it the good old way i choose laser dmg thingy and ect ect then i can fit 5 guns and go on with life. or lets say i think hams will own in gang. so i select hams dmg thing ect ect and fit missiles. instead of ****ing on things that arnt broken -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
Hamcraft	Posted - 2007.08.01 03:13:00 - [709] Edited by: Hamcraft on 01/08/2007 03:17:26 You are darn right I will complain if the cruiser-sized Khanid ships get general damage bonuses to all missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles are awesome for PVP. Everyone is so engrossed with pansy tactics of orbiting out of web range and using ewar these days. Range is not all that missiles are good for. Now if you look at the Cerberus compared to the new Sacrilege, it has a bonus to Kinetic damage on it. Yeah kinetic damage. With each Khanid ship, I say you choose to either have a bonus to HAM damage, or a bonus to EM missile damage. You must limit it in some way. A bonus to all missiles INCLUDING all damage types is too much. So choose one or the other. And if I were you, I would choose the limitation to be to HAMs. Yes, HAMs have the range of blasters, but they rock because of their missile advantages. With missiles, you can always have the damage type advantage if you use good judgement! And missile disadvantages, such as time to reach target, matter less and less the closer you are to your target. Use 90% webbers, they rock with HAMs. I kill vagabonds in my HAM drake, I'm dead serious, it just takes smart tactics and a mwd/webber. Amarr pilots, Heavy Assault Missiles are AWESOME. As a Caldari player experienced with using them, you can trust me. Read the last post I made in this topic. Train up t2 Heavy Assault Missiles and then fly your new Sacrilege--you will not be disappointed. While you are training up missiles, I will be training up Amarr ships and armor tanking. I agree however that these Khanid changes pigeonhole the setup flexability available for the ships. Just keep the turret hardpoints as they were, that keeps more possibilities open while, to compensate, the bonuses will not be in favor of them. Now for NOS. I didn't comment the last time, but I am not sure how I like the new nos mechanics. I assume the idea is to nerf the nos domi and myrmidon and make them fit not just nos but a combination of it and hybrids for a change. Why not just implement a combination of a signature radius nerf and a stacking nerf rather than make it all complicated? And don't kill the nos specialty ships, offer a little bit of compensation in their bonuses like you did with ECM ships after nerfing ECM. But not too much, becuase I agree the curse needs to have some nerf action.
Joe Canoe	Posted - 2007.08.01 03:17:00 - [710] I think that the changes listed basically break most of amarr pilots or atleast nerf them for a time... The Khanid ships are basically useless now until i am able to train up missile skills and then yes they will be very nice.. But as someone who was training the skills to fly a Curse... Theres now no point at all. A curse that cant nos properly will be USELESS. People are saying just use cap boosters. But thats rediculous that instantly wasteds a med slot which could be used for EW. The whole point of the ship was to drain cap so that people couldnt rep then slowly ping them down with drones... they will no longer be able to do that because there victims cap will always be lower then theres. AS well what about the Faction ships such as the Bhaalgorn and Ashimmu they will now become majorly weekend as well.. Overall i dislike the changes that are bieng made but mainly the nos changes, Id honestly say leave the nos alone unless you want to give all the nos boats some sort of a boost in some other way...

Matuk Grymwal Impartial Predjudices	Posted - 2007.08.01 03:29:00 - [711] Nice to see the amarr dictor doesn't suck so hard now. It would be nice if the gallente one got a little love as well...triple weapon system 4TL. NOS changes seem quite workable. ---------- Life isn't fair. Get over it.
Baynex Amarr Lasciate Ogne Speranza	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:05:00 - [712] IMO, if you're gonna do this to NOS...you have to give the curse/pilg a new tank then, because in their current setup Nosing their opponents out of cap WAS their tank. ñ~Baynex
Man1ac Xenobytes Stain Empire	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:12:00 - [713] Why just not to introduce a special "NOS hardpoint"? One per ship? More for specialized NOS ships? That would kill all monstrous setups, and leave specialized ships undamaged.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:24:00 - [714] Originally by: Man1ac Why just not to introduce a special "NOS hardpoint"? One per ship? More for specialized NOS ships? That would kill all monstrous setups, and leave specialized ships undamaged. The way it currently is on Sisi all the 'specialized' ships are undamaged as it is. Nano Curses still run around nossing/neuting everything into dust. The Sac is really dangerous now. It can tank the DPS of a gank Neutron Blasterthron. Good DPS with HAMs. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:42:00 - [715] Originally by: Dav Varan Nos changes are welcome. But wouldn't it make more sense to make it % based on the target ship alone. The restriction based on % of own cap is gonna mean nos is only really useful in passive shield tanked ships. Drake ftw ? yep, becuase 5 light drones do so much dps....
SleepyOSU	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:41:00 - [716] I agree Nos needs hit with the Nerf bat. With your current resolution I see a few issues. Drone boats Curse, Pilgram, Ishtar, Eos, Myrmidon, Ishkur, [Dominix I will exclude as it has a big enough cap to neut and tank]) IMO if this neut nerf is applied without compensating these drone boats, the ships will be over nerfed. Curse and Pilgram basically useless solo. I think these ships should either get a bonus to cap recharge to allow them to still tank and neut, or a bonus that would allow drain at 1/2 value if the target is lower. Some way to tank and drain or modified in some way not to be over nerfed...these ships that rely on nos drone combo. Lastly, supper cap killing, you can no longer offset neuts with nos. IE have 3 nos running and 1 neut and stay neutral cap.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:04:00 - [717] Originally by: Blue Ryth The Nos patch is simply too radical to work. Even from a theoretical point of view (I know it is sci-fi, but the 'sci' is short for 'science'), what sort of module would only be able to limit the targets capacitor to the percentage of the aggressor? I mean seriously, it doesn't make sense. Take a charged capacitor and hook it up to an empty one with a wire (aka our Nosferatu). The filled capacitor will drain to the smaller one until they're balanced. The rate at which this occurs depends on the thickness of the wire (Small, Medium, Heavy Nos). I know ill prob get flamed for usin RL examples but you started it. Taking energy and moving it about in a balanced system (aka both cap levels equal) requires energy to do (aka the neut). Physics FTW.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:30:00 - [718] I for one think this is a terrible idea and cannot understand why dev won't leave it currently as is. As a pilgrim/curse pilot I think this very much nerfs the ship and kills your ability to drain a target dry for drone damage which is the whole point of Amarr recons. As an Amarr pilot overall I think its horrible to further damage an already cap vulnerable line of ships which depends on NOS to supplement its cap. I anticipate that CCP will compensate those of us who fly NOS DEPENDENT ships with specific changes that make them work with this nerf, but I know this is not likely to happen. One big thing that needs to change then is the NOS duration so that it constantly updates cap status. If the duration was 2 sec or so then this may not be that bad of a change by CCP.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:39:00 - [719] Originally by: Bad Liz I for one think this is a terrible idea and cannot understand why dev won't leave it currently as is. As a pilgrim/curse pilot I think this very much nerfs the ship and kills your ability to drain a target dry for drone damage which is the whole point of Amarr recons. As an Amarr pilot overall I think its horrible to further damage an already cap vulnerable line of ships which depends on NOS to supplement its cap. I anticipate that CCP will compensate those of us who fly NOS DEPENDENT ships with specific changes that make them work with this nerf, but I know this is not likely to happen. One big thing that needs to change then is the NOS duration so that it constantly updates cap status. If the duration was 2 sec or so then this may not be that bad of a change by CCP. As someone else further up pointed out, Amarr ships in battle even with Nos often stabilize in the 40% ish range. As a minmatar I find myself barely breaking 70% in my "cap-dependant" setups. Therefore you have the advantage of being almost immune to Nos, as he put it, because Amarr ships are the most likely race of ships to have low cap, as you guys like to whine about all the time. Listen to the pilots who have tried it out on sisi, its not broken. Some say nothing noticeable has changed. Maybe your setup needs tweeking :D If anything, this favors Amarr cause you guys have such terrible cap ;D
a51 duke1406	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:54:00 - [720] Well no one from CCP will proberly ever read this, but as I write it there is 26 pages, which must consist of at least 95% of CPP for the love of god stop! Hopefully it will get through, but after only playing this game for 10 months I have noticed that CPPs notion of balancing only involves nerfing stuff. And somehow in the process you add yet more lag to the servers while doing it. I started playing when the new tier 3 stuff came into the game, and I taught oh wow a game that makes me think and has a constantly changing game dynamic, with new ships etc. Now I begining to think that, ah I wonder what will do less damage or will be less effective in the next few months, Not: I wonder what ccp are going to add to make it better and keep people more entertained and keep me playing. Why take away from the game, I constantly try to imagin what kind of insane comittee thinking and procedures lead to a group of people to contradict their own aims for a project at every corner. Your 'balencing' usually leave the eve community, as the so far 26 pages this tread has reached indicate, angry and wanting more. Please, Please CPP stop taking away from the game that has built up a near fanactical community of loyal and devoated subscribers, and start thinking about what to add. Even those god awfull wow players look forward to new dragans or gardon knomes Sum up; you dont need to nerf every single thing you percive as unblancened.

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:59:00 - [721] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again No you dont. You only need, 400-500k Missile skills for t2 hams + supporting skills to be effective. Missiles are very easy to train, unlike gunnery. I know - I have both 500k in missiles vs my 10mill in gunnery, yeah thats gonna be the same Yep. 500k sp to be effective with Missiles vs 5mil+ Gunnery to be effective with Lasers. It really is that easy. Missiles are fine for close range stuff. At long range (e.g 100km+) missiles are useless, and thats where your 10mil+ gunnery skills kick in. Apples and oranges. I too have pimp gunnery skills, and pimp missile skills - it really is a shock for Amarr pilots when they relise how easy it is to train for missiles. HAM 5 on its own is 768,000 skill points. and that doesn't take into account standard missiles rockets rocket spec ham spec missile lancher op missile bombardment rapid launch target navigation projection warhead upgrades 400k sp eh..... ok.. done the math, i'm gonna need a further 3,194,039 sp to make theses changes 'wrk' guess i won't train bs 5 then I have already said that you need only around 400-500k sp for t2 Hams to be effective. This is just the supporting skills for the weapon. I am not talking about pimp supporting skills all at lvl5, nor I am taling about including the t2 ham or rocket skills etc. Further up the thread, I mentioned that it would take a month for t2 hams and the supporting skills, however my post to you was not clearly worded, so for this I apologise. The supporting skills for HAM's to be effective (and not pimp - remember, this is minimum) Rapid Launch 4 Missile Operation 4 Missile Projection 4 Missile Bombardment 4 Standard Missle launcher 3 (so you can train HAMS) Warhead Upgrades 4 Thats pretty much the minimum you need to be effective, as well as whichever missile type added in top (e.g rockets or whatever). Ideally, you would train the above to lvl5 to qualify for pimp missile skills status. Once you have these skills, you can train up for t2 hams or t2 rockets (Rockets 5 is a rank 1 skill). Remember - you can train up t2 missiles in any order so you dont need to train them all! Also note that I missed out target Navigation prediction and Guided Missile. These skills do not effect Hams or rackets. -- Billion Isk Mission
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:32:00 - [722] Lol its not a setup that needs tweaking. When you make a ship based around 1 weapon, and then change the whole concept behind it without changing the ship then you're in big trouble. And I agree with the previous poster, CCP needs to learn how to change things in the game without nerfing as their only tool (obvious lack of imagination). NOS always had a clear tradeoff, you sacrifice a hardpoint for it. It would have been far more of a tradeoff if CCP made ships with all turret or launcher possible hardpoints. As usual there is little logic in the CCP decision and obviously far less input from the community. But we all know it was best for drone based ships...like the Pilgrim or the Curse. I spend everyday killing people in these ships and can't wait for the next raven to finally kill me thanks to this nerf...I mean balancing.
Ryan Darkwolf Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:52:00 - [723] I know multiple people have posted this but...CCP can we get a responce please? Look the NOS nerf sucks...I hate it...now I need to figure out some new way to keep my cap up without having to depend on a cap booster because i absolutely refuse to use one of my precious mid slots and my cargo space for one. So far I see more of the community leaning towards "wtf ccp don't do this" and i am jumping on their bandwagon. A lot of ideas were set...make Nos drainage depend on percentage of targets cap...have a stacking penalty...a vampire drains the life away while gaining it...they don't do halvsies caping off when their life reaches the same as their victims (sorry I read alot of mythology and this only happens when they wish to turn a victim into a vampire). So again...we need a responce CCP. ------------------- New account on EvE-Online...$19.95 100 Day GTC...$49.95 2 Month supply of German beer...$200.00 Having your computer die because of Hello Kitty online...Priceless
TigerWoman	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:52:00 - [724] From the dev blog: "As always, the above changes are not final and subject to change if they turn out to be overpowered or under-performing. Of course we would like to hear your feedback on the Nosferatu and Khanid changes (from Caldari pilots too). More balacing changes for Revelations 2.2 to follow." so we only have one piece of the picture yet. other changes will come and will eventually turn the tides again. i will not rate a picture which isnt complete yet.
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:52:00 - [725] Finally the amarr also have to train for 2 different weapons type to be able to perform 100% in the own race Like ALL other races. so quit the complaining and adapt,
Ryan Darkwolf Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:57:00 - [726] Originally by: Sir JoJo Finally the amarr also have to train for 2 different weapons type to be able to perform 100% in the own race Like ALL other races. so quit the complaining and adapt, Alot of Ammar (including myself) already train 2 or more weapons systems...it isn't the fact that we no HAVE to...its the fact that our own weapons cost so much cap that the only thing we used to keep ourselves going has been taken away. I mean every now and then I fit my apoc with 2 torp launchers to the surprise of the Nos domi.. Nos wasn't relly overpowered...it was hard to overcome but the thing was that it was possible to do it. ------------------- New account on EvE-Online...$19.95 100 Day GTC...$49.95 2 Month supply of German beer...$200.00 Having your computer die because of Hello Kitty online...Priceless
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:18:00 - [727] Originally by: Octavio Santillian The more I think about this the more laughable it is. Poor Amarr, I almost feel sorry for the slaving b-stards. Lets see: 1) Core issues with lasers/Omni tanks not addressed. 2) Only really good ships they had have been nerfed (though this had to happen because NOS is just stupid). 3) Now need to train entirely new tree to use half of their ships. 4) Forced into short range combat on half their ships. You sad it all ->My Vids<-
Captain Kaizoku Deniz Mahsulleri Ofisi	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:32:00 - [728] Stop saying "use neutralizers", this is a NOS patch, not "use neutralizer instead" patch. Good pvpers are already using neutralizers, and neutralizer is still ESSENTIAL for capital ship killing. I don't know which dev suggested you to change NOS like this, but one thing is for certain, you haven't asked your EvE community about it. This is the most ridiculous idea ever. Change the NOS idea to one of these: 1. Signature radius to NOS. 2. Stacking penalty to NOS. 3. Reducing NOS leech amounts. We have so many good options on the table, yet you select a ridiculous idea. Consider these situations: * 15 battleships nossing 1 battleship, only 1 ships nos will be working, he'll simply tank them forever. Hows this logical? * 100 battleships nossing 1 capital ship, only 1 of them will really be nossing. Capital ship is undefeatable. How's this logical? (Don't tell me to use neutralizer, this is not a "use neutralizer instead" patch. This is NOS) * Not to mention that all "Nos amount" bonuses in game will be nothing and meaningless. Who cares a nos amount increase while you cannot really nos. Example ships with nos amount bonuses are pilgrim, curse, bhaalgorn, ashimmu etc.
Mo adib	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:40:00 - [729] tbo I would like to see one more missle hardpoint on damnation at which point I would drop whatever I was training and go all out to fly one of the sexiest ships in the game that also happens to be quite powerful, gallente get a powerful logistics command why not toss one amarrs way as well :) other then that love the changes
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:57:00 - [730] Actually itÆs quite an awesome idea, making combat more tactical, and is the most 'believable' one in a quasi-æphysicsÆ senseà(Physics in inverted commas because, well Eve-æPhysÆ and real-æPhysÆ donÆt see eye to eye on a lot of things ) Nosferatu's sucking away charge from capacitors doesn't make any sense. BUT, think about it as the flow of heat through conduction, with the Nosferatu 'beam' being the conducting 'material': Not being able to transfer any more heat for 'free' once the 'temperature' (i.e. capacitor %) is equalised in both ships, is equivalent to having two identical lumps of metal at the same temperature û no flow of heat between the two (no capacitor energy flow). Neutralisers on the other hand would be more like heat pumps û Yes they can still pump from a æcoldÆ ship (capacitor lower than yours) but they require æworkÆ (capacitor energy) to pump the æthermal energyÆ (capacitor energy) from one ship to the other. In short, stop whining and get on Sisi and test the specifics, this change IS needed and IS an awesome way to go about it. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'

max bygraves	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:58:00 - [731] Originally by: Sanzorz Urgh... First of all then I don't know about NOS: I've heard alot about it and it was used quite alot and as Amarr I feared of running into the module. The change now needs alot of strategy combining NOS with Neuts, which prolly makes it a headache in large scale pvp. I don't get it. Most people vouch for a stacking nerf when using NOS. A friend of mine suggested to make NOS slots on ships, to prevent the overall abusing of the module. The Khanid part is highly overrated and I don't like it at all. There's a reason I have my skillpoints in gunnery. Kinda silly to work on Missiles now just to get the decent t2 ships. Khanid ships now have to restock alot on ammo for damage (I don't care what people say. Lasers using no ammo was about the only good thing about it). I was planning on getting the Damnation, but now it does not look interesting anymore due to the silly HAM bonus. First of you'll most likely have to fit t2 HAM launchers, which will be very very tight when using armor reparing modules as you now lowered the pg on it. Second is the range...HAMs don't go very far so you'll have to get Javelins which are t2. Overall close range combat is bad due to scramblers, webbers and NOS. That's why the bonusses on Malediction and Heretic are totally odd. I'm gonna stick to my Carthum ships and my Abaddon. you dont know much judging by this post.
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:00:00 - [732] nos dont need a nerf, caldri need a nerf, now they even more stronger bs ****
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:03:00 - [733] Oh and to the Amarr 'purists' who think its all laser laser laser, and deadpan voice "we don't touch missiles in the empire..." What the heck is that then?! ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:11:00 - [734] I like the NOS changes, it was long overdue tbh. We're sorry, something happened.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:16:00 - [735] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:39:40 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:35:09 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:33:53 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:30:26 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! To my knowledge searching Amarr friend. Missiles 101: Guided Missile Precision - Proficiency at this skill increases the accuracy of a fired missile's exact point of impact, resulting in greater damage to small targets. 5% decreased factor of signature radius for light, heavy and cruise missile explosions per level of skill. GMP is the only skill not applicable to rockets/HAMs/torps. ALL OTHER skills affect all missile types. Aren't you glad that all the turret whiners did not succeed in making Missile training dependencies like for Turrets? Now you can use the advantage you so much hated for your own good. FASTER TRAINING TIMES to T2 missiles !!! Future holds many surprises and past mistakes may turn to good. Originally by:** JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Ruffles	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:23:00 - [736] Nosferatu Changes: Haven't been back in game long enough to effectively comment on these, sorry. Khanid Changes: I don't think that the Purist Amarrian thing is the issue. The fact is that most of us that have specialized into these ships have a huge investment in gunnery, and now we are given missile only ships. I'm sure you can see that the vast majority of happy commentors on this are Caldari characters/pilots, for the obvious reasons. As a Sac pilot, I have to admit I dislike the changes in the respect of huge time investments already in Laser Turrets and Specializations. Yes we all liked the Sac for the ability to fit launchers, but what it lacked was a bonus for them. We all liked being able to deal an additional damage type, but the lack of bonus for both types of weapons on the HAC is the issue. It strikes me that the obvious choice here is to give them dual-specialization, rather then solely one. Give them Laser and Missile turrets, say up to 4 potentially for each whilst keeping high points the same. Just give them a double bonus for the HAC skill, this gives the Pilot the choice. Sacrilege (Heavy Assault Ship) Suggestions: High Points: 6 (Missile Options 5, Turret Options 4) * 5% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile damage per Amarr CC level AND Medium Turret Damage * 5% bonus to armor resistances per Amarr CC level (no change) * 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time per HAS level (This is a really useless bonus for a missile only ship isn't it? * 5% reduction of missile launcher ROF per HAS level AND Medium Laser ROF PS One of the reasons no one uses Heavy Assault Missiles is their range is just too short. Increase the flight time fractionally, so they are a distance around 10-12km and you might see more use. With the Sac current HAC skill bonus being to Laser Optimal Range, most pulse laser loadouts put them shooting even Multifrequency crystals just out of range for the Heavy Assault Missiles to hit. If you changed this Laser Optimal range to Laser Damage, you bring the craft closer again, albeit fractionally, but you still would likely need to just increase the Heavy Assault flight times fractionally. PS In the old days I thought doing a Show Info on missiles in your hold or fitted would show them adjusted to your skills. Has this been changed, because it doesn't seem to adjust their attributes, so it's rather harder to determine accurate maximum ranges.
Chromakey Dreamcoat	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:25:00 - [737] Edited by: Chromakey Dreamcoat on 01/08/2007 09:30:49 This nerf will be the death of the pilgrim. I tried fitting a pilgrim with 2 neuts and 1 nos. I couldn't fit a 800mm plate so I replaced it with another medium armor repair. One nosferatu pre and post nerf isn't going to sustain the cap on this ship when running tracking disruptors, web, and warp disruptor. You'll cap out in 30 seconds. Replace the web with a cap booster? Not enough PG, unless you spend a billion on faction/officer mods. The pilgrim will turn out to be as overpowered as a thorax except you can sneak up on people to get owned.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:37:00 - [738] Originally by: Lord WarATron Also note that I missed out target Navigation prediction and Guided Missile. These skills do not effect Hams or rockets. GMP does not effect HAMs/rockets. TNP however most definately effects HAMs and I would be surprised if rockets would be uneffected.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:41:00 - [739] Edited by: Garia666 on 01/08/2007 09:41:16 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Oh and to the Amarr 'purists' who think its all laser laser laser, and deadpan voice "we don't touch missiles in the empire..." What the heck is that then?! hahah indeed but we always get EM bonusses not thermal.. sadly enough.. check our stealth bomber ->My Vids<-
Itburnz Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:45:00 - [740] why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi.

Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:52:00 - [741] Originally by: Ruffles Edited by: Ruffles on 01/08/2007 09:28:27 * 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time per HAS level (This is a really useless bonus for a missile only ship isn't it? A mixed ship using lasers, and this bonus is again useful) Useless? You fly Amarr and you're looking down your nose at more cap? Cap = Life as you know well, and with the nos nerf, you might actually be able to keep a bit of it for yourself. If your missiles don't take cap, and you're getting up to 33% more from recharge (admittedly most will come from your Injector), you can run your reps more and make that Sac's tank even sicker. Keep the turret slots, but not the bonuses, I'll agree with you there. Plus, you can easily boost the HAM's range to 10km or more with a few fairly quick skills, 15km theoretical (13-14km in practice) with maxed skills, and Javelins are quite long range. You'll be amazed how few SP you really need in missiles to be effective with them, they take no finesse whatsoever. (I flew a Caracal with 47k in missiles for a while, sure it didn't wtfpwn anything but it did what I asked of it and ran most L3s well enough) Only concern I have is with the cargo bay, it should be buffed a bit if this ship is to spew HAMs, considering their high RoF. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
TheDevilsLawyer	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:54:00 - [742] Edited by: TheDevilsLawyer on 01/08/2007 09:54:56 Originally by: PhantomVyper THIS IS A BOOST TO SHIPS THAT ARE NOT CAP STABLE WITHOUT HELP! If you need a nos in your current setup to keep your modules going, then this change won't affect you very much. Infact it will help you because your enemies won't be able to nos you dry UNLESS they spend more cap than you! Sorry, you and everyone else who is saying this is wrong. I will assume a "NOT CAP STABLE" ship goes up against a ship that does not depend on boosters or nos. Firstly, your ship is more cap-reliant than theirs. If you nos them down to your level they care far less than you that they are at a low cap. If the enemy is smart and realizes your setup depends on nos, they will purposely run themselves to low cap, your setup won't be able to nos the cap you need, and you will die. You're giving the enemy player control of a situation you previously had control over. If you nos them down to zero, then you are dead, not them, as your setup is cap-reliant. Additionally, you fail to take into account neutralizers. The best PvPers already use neuts as an alternative to or in combination with nos, if fitting neuts becomes common your cap-relaint setup will suffer FAR more than others. This change will make cap-reliant setups (pulse dual rep and the like) obselete. They won't be able to obtain the cap they need using nos because nos are unreliable and the enemy players know this. Sure, they don't have to face being nosed to death, rather, they commit nos-suicide or get neuted to death instead.
Ruffles	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:01:00 - [743] Quote: Useless? You fly Amarr and you're looking down your nose at more cap? Cap = Life as you know well, and with the nos nerf, you might actually be able to keep a bit of it for yourself. If your missiles don't take cap, and you're getting up to 33% more from recharge (admittedly most will come from your Injector), you can run your reps more and make that Sac's tank even sicker. Yes I fly amarr, and this ship also has a pretty decent cap recharge rate with our current loadouts. Adding more when we use less cap because the missile launchers use far far less cap then lasers seems like an incorrect bonus to me, and obviously many others that have already voiced it before me. If it was along side Laser skills, then we would love that bonus I'm sure, but along side missile launchers that require how much cap use? Minimal/negligable/none? Why do we need the bonus in that situation?
Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:06:00 - [744] wow talk about not thinking about something lol , just give nos a stacking penalty or tracking or both gezz. Tell u wat guys now the drake is even more uber lol , nos drake lol , passive tanked drake only has to keep his cap m/t an nos the other guy to death , no more nos domi , nos/drake FTL!!111!! so i guess i will start trainging caldari. gezz an i wasted a month on the pilgrim i could have had t2 large lasers if i knew this was commming , thank god i didnt train up recon ships .....
Titus Lewis Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:15:00 - [745] Alright, I'm starting to come around on the Khanid changes. At first, I was a little on the bandwagon of the people that were so upset about all the gunnery skills going to waste and having to train missiles. I think the thing they don't understand is that it's relatively easy to train missiles, and compared to the gunnery skills needed to make lasers semi-effective its a breeze. Also, as long as this isn't the only plan to fix Ammar, we are okay. Lasers still need to be looked at, (cap? actual ship bonuses?) and beams still need to be able to be fit on our ships. Ammar still needs to be made more useful, but I'm starting to see this as at least a step in the right direction. And the NOS thing? Yeah, long overdue. Freedom is Slavery
Zikka The Establishment	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:15:00 - [746] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again No you dont. You only need, 400-500k Missile skills for t2 hams + supporting skills to be effective. Missiles are very easy to train, unlike gunnery. I know - I have both 500k in missiles vs my 10mill in gunnery, yeah thats gonna be the same Yep. 500k sp to be effective with Missiles vs 5mil+ Gunnery to be effective with Lasers. It really is that easy. Missiles are fine for close range stuff. At long range (e.g 100km+) missiles are useless, and thats where your 10mil+ gunnery skills kick in. Apples and oranges. I too have pimp gunnery skills, and pimp missile skills - it really is a shock for Amarr pilots when they relise how easy it is to train for missiles. HAM 5 on its own is 768,000 skill points. and that doesn't take into account standard missiles rockets rocket spec ham spec missile lancher op missile bombardment rapid launch target navigation projection warhead upgrades 400k sp eh..... ok.. done the math, i'm gonna need a further 3,194,039 sp to make theses changes 'wrk' guess i won't train bs 5 then Why are you doing standard missiles and rocket spec? For tech 2 hams you need missile launcher op 3, standard missiles 3, ham V. That is around 2 weeks training. To get all the support skills you need (nav prediction, warhead upgrades, rapid launch, projection, bombardment) to 3 or 4 will take about another week. Yes getting the support skills to 5 will take longer, but that's hardly surprising. The point is you can be very effective in a sacrilige in 3 weeks. Hell train HAM to 4 instead of 5 and use faction missiles in arbie launchers and you don't lose much effectiveness and shave most of two weeks off the training time.
Ruffles	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:27:00 - [747] Quote: Yes getting the support skills to 5 will take longer, but that's hardly surprising. The point is you can be very effective in a sacrilige in 3 weeks. The one point being there, that those of us with the ship are then unable to use it for weeks, something we already own and use effectively with lasers (having specialized mediums for use on the Sac/Zea, etc). Sure, give the ship the potential to use missiles as well, but not the only thing for a race that is turret centric. That's primarily what most people are saying. The option alone on the ship to use lots of launchers IF the pilot wants too will allow the choice.
Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:30:00 - [748] Originally by: Titus Lewis Alright, I'm starting to come around on the Khanid changes. At first, I was a little on the bandwagon of the people that were so upset about all the gunnery skills going to waste and having to train missiles. I think the thing they don't understand is that it's relatively easy to train missiles, and compared to the gunnery skills needed to make lasers semi-effective its a breeze. Also, as long as this isn't the only plan to fix Ammar, we are okay. Lasers still need to be looked at, (cap? actual ship bonuses?) and beams still need to be able to be fit on our ships. Ammar still needs to be made more useful, but I'm starting to see this as at least a step in the right direction. And the NOS thing? Yeah, long overdue. hey im with u man , im going to train caldari an get me into a drake lol , nos/passive tanked drake ftw!!!
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:39:00 - [749] Edited by: Lord Loom on 01/08/2007 10:40:54 Originally by: Ruffles PS In the old days I thought doing a Show Info on missiles in your hold or fitted would show them adjusted to your skills. Has this been changed, because it doesn't seem to adjust their attributes, so it's rather harder to determine accurate maximum ranges. missiles in your hold don't show info after skills, only those loaded into launchers do IIRC (press ctrl-shift-f in space for the loadout screen, or use showinfo on your ship and check them in your modules tab) ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:51:00 - [750] The thing that is really bugging me about this nos change is that it gives crappy pilots (read low skills) an advantage over skilled pilots. A percentage based approach is more useful, while i find the sig radius approach to hard to implement. I would rather see Nos removed entirely then the implementation of the suggested changes. The Khanid changes by Sarmaul were very good, i really like em and CCP would be well advised to stick to the original proposals. _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec

Xyton Zatnox	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:54:00 - [751] This is the most ridiculous patch ever. Among all those NOS changes, you decided to use this? I mean how come you jump into any random idea without thinking consequences. This is not only a battleship vs frigate fight. There are many aspects of Nos, and this is the worst solution to it. Not to mention 100000 ships nossing 1 ship but only 1 of them is in effect. What a bull.sh.t
Jon Engel APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:57:00 - [752] Originally by: Xyton Zatnox This is the most ridiculous patch ever. Among all those NOS changes, you decided to use this? I mean how come you jump into any random idea without thinking consequences. This is not only a battleship vs frigate fight. There are many aspects of Nos, and this is the worst solution to it. Not to mention 100000 ships nossing 1 ship but only 1 of them is in effect. What a bull.sh.t I could not agree more, dude. You must think before you swing that Nerf bat CCP. Or alternatively give us a decent boost in cap recharge for all ships. Ah well, you have forced me to become a sniper now. Thanks a bunch.
Ruffles	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:03:00 - [753] Originally by: Lord Loom missiles in your hold don't show info after skills, only those loaded into launchers do IIRC (press ctrl-shift-f in space for the loadout screen, or use showinfo on your ship and check them in your modules tab) Thank you Loom, always good to learn new short-cuts since my return.
Dajjal Amarr Rage Academy oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:05:00 - [754] the more i look at the changes the more i like them and yes i am Amarr spec'd - but did train missiles to be able to use Khanid ships (more) effectively (although most of their ships had been 'inferior' the rest of the Amarr available ships due primarily to the mish mash of bonuses and slot layout) i would, however, like to see PIE's views (seen a few posts by Rodj) as this affects them greatly (flying only Amarr...) plus having flown with them (and against them on the odd occasion since ) i greatly respect their knowledge and opinion of all things Amarr ship-related.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:13:00 - [755] Originally by: Ruffles Yes I fly amarr, and this ship also has a pretty decent cap recharge rate with our current loadouts. Adding more when we use less cap because the missile launchers use far far less cap then lasers seems like an incorrect bonus to me... Then maybe you should take a look at what amount of cap the ship needs instead to guess how it "seems" to you. The sacriledge is per its weapon boni a short range cruiser, the means it really needs a MWD to be effective. Which has a cap penality. With the MWD cap penality and max skills the sac has 20.2 cap/sec recharge. A MAR2 needs with max skills 17.8 cap/sec, a WD2 3.75. So it cannot even keep the scram and rep running permanently, WITH the cap recharge boost. The cap recharge skill is rather useful.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:18:00 - [756] I've built a new nosdomi to take advantage of the new changes, should be pretty awesome when they hit. It'll not be affected by the changes significantly except that instead of running my cap as high as I can, I'll be purposefully keeping it low and using the cap as soon as I nos it out of the enemy. I have a few variations on it so far but my favourite is the passive tanked nos/neut domi for gang pvp. At first I thought the change was insane, then I began to think about it a bit and draw some conclusions. It would have helped immensely if they had actually explained WHY they were choosing the solution they were, but nevertheless I came to a few conclusions. Nos will now balance out over the course of a fight. Your nos will become effective if you're losing a fight (cap-wise) but will become defective once you start winning. For cap-intensive ships that use a few nos, this will balance your cap to around the same level as your enemy's in the long term. If your enemy's using cap boosters to keep his cap at about 30%, your nos will help your cap stabilise around that mark since if you have more than that, the nos will not suck anything. Before the change, it would just keep sucking and you could easily get your cap above the enemy's. This means that those using nos have a smaller advantage in a battle. The unfortunate side-effect is that the optimum strategy for dedicated nos ships will now be to dump all of your capacitor to maximise nossing. Whether you dump it into an armour repairer or a shield booster doesn't matter, what matters is that you get rid of your capacitor. The lower your cap is, the better your nos will work and the less the enemy's nos will work on you. my personal favourite for a dedicated nos ship will be to mix nos and neuts in equal proportions as neuts use up the same amount of energy per second that their same-sized counterparts obtain. Activate the nos and then the neuts. This way, you can keep your cap near 0% and pull cap in then dump it into the neuts. This all depends on what kind of balancing is done to the AMOUNT of cap the new nos suck. If they suck a percentage of the rated number on the module and the percentage is based on the difference between your two relative cap levels, they should be less of a force for ships fitting one or two and amazing for real dedicated capless nos ships. The trick would be to use a ship which requires no cap, a passive shield tanked drone ship with a wingman for tackling. The mydmidon and Dominix are still prime ships for this. It'll be interesting to see how this makes it to tq. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Wataru Amnesia Amarr Black Lion Legion	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:21:00 - [757] Dear ccp game-concept devs(i guess this issues are your part): Khanid MK2: Is it so hard to implement more crystals paired with the Energy Beam weapon Specialization skills and give them the other damage-types? tbh i like Caldari, i like Missiles (hell i played missile boats in other MMORPGs for years), but i choose amarr cause of their unique insectoid behaviors and their LASERS.(Jenquai in heart, as amarr reborn:-) let the Progen rest within thou) We all know how Amarr suck at this times, but since you add an non possible scientific addition like Heat, you cant really have probs with adding multi-damage crystals? Its called revelations, reveal that the khanids stole some Jove-tricks and added them to the whole Amarr-fleet laser-technics? Or simple add a secound ammo-slot to current lasers and give a damage multiplier penalty if using both for the balance(well that one will need some graphic changes, too, but it is within eve¦s scientific possibilities). Seriously, the changes, will of course fix amarr, but after all its more or less just caldari-armor tanks you try to introduce(with different bonuses) Cant be that much database work, some ammo BPOs, some tables with attributes & Info; database flush; seeding, done--> Balance-researchment(and no flames all the time)......i know it is less work to do then the one you announced, but i wish you luck anyway, it is your game and i am not your CEO or Teamleader(if i win in lotto that could change:-) ) Nos changes: i dont care much about Nos, i need it in Pvp, once it gets nerfed that way as announced, i just switch to something else. Since rigs are in the game i guess many things can be compensated and Nos is more or less 1 of it. Thx tough for removing the Nos-Domi that way. We will adapt:-) Wataru out ----Less is more---- PS: i thought over the time you devs needed to develope the announced changes active on Singularity. This is a message to the CEO of yours: dont stress your employees with time-frames, and let them read some good Sci-fi Technic novels. Good ideas are born in freaks, but freaks need time to reveal themselve to their CEO as geniuses!!! :-)
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:23:00 - [758] Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer Edited by: TheDevilsLawyer on 01/08/2007 09:54:56 Originally by: PhantomVyper THIS IS A BOOST TO SHIPS THAT ARE NOT CAP STABLE WITHOUT HELP! If you need a nos in your current setup to keep your modules going, then this change won't affect you very much. Infact it will help you because your enemies won't be able to nos you dry UNLESS they spend more cap than you! Sorry, you and everyone else who is saying this is wrong. I will assume a "NOT CAP STABLE" ship goes up against a ship that does not depend on boosters or nos. Firstly, your ship is more cap-reliant than theirs. If you nos them down to your level they care far less than you that they are at a low cap. If the enemy is smart and realizes your setup depends on nos, they will purposely run themselves to low cap, your setup won't be able to nos the cap you need, and you will die. You're giving the enemy player control of a situation you previously had control over. If you nos them down to zero, then you are dead, not them, as your setup is cap-reliant. Additionally, you fail to take into account neutralizers. The best PvPers already use neuts as an alternative to or in combination with nos, if fitting neuts becomes common your cap-relaint setup will suffer FAR more than others. This change will make cap-reliant setups (pulse dual rep and the like) obselete. They won't be able to obtain the cap they need using nos because nos are unreliable and the enemy players know this. Sure, they don't have to face being nosed to death, rather, they commit nos-suicide or get neuted to death instead. And again I ask, show me a cap independent setup that relies on neuts. Cap unstable setups (dual reps and such), have never relied on nos alone to keep going, you'll always need a cap injector and always have. This change is a boost to that kind of setups, if they die to neuts or not is irrelevant, the fact that they did die whennever they found a nos (wich everyone was using in their PVP ships), and now they won't IS a boost.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:31:00 - [759] Originally by: Roninwolfie Originally by: Titus Lewis Alright, I'm starting to come around on the Khanid changes. At first, I was a little on the bandwagon of the people that were so upset about all the gunnery skills going to waste and having to train missiles. I think the thing they don't understand is that it's relatively easy to train missiles, and compared to the gunnery skills needed to make lasers semi-effective its a breeze. Also, as long as this isn't the only plan to fix Ammar, we are okay. Lasers still need to be looked at, (cap? actual ship bonuses?) and beams still need to be able to be fit on our ships. Ammar still needs to be made more useful, but I'm starting to see this as at least a step in the right direction. And the NOS thing? Yeah, long overdue. hey im with u man , im going to train caldari an get me into a drake lol , nos/passive tanked drake ftw!!! Damn these whiners are a riot!
IPyric	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:35:00 - [760] Originally by: Wataru Amnesia PS: i thought over the time you devs needed to develope the announced changes active on Singularity. This is a message to the CEO of yours: dont stress your employees with time-frames, and let them read some good Sci-fi Technic novels. Good ideas are born in freaks, but freaks need time to reveal themselve to their CEO as geniuses!!! :-) NOS Domi is not gone, its now going to be a domi with neuts and it has the cargo bay to use lots of cap injectors.. unfortunatly for poor amarr their ships have very small cargo bays and will not compete with the Neut/Cap booster setups.. but hey this is a boost for amarr right ohh and now they have to carry missiles with their small cargo bays too

Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:37:00 - [761] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Roninwolfie Originally by: Titus Lewis Alright, I'm starting to come around on the Khanid changes. At first, I was a little on the bandwagon of the people that were so upset about all the gunnery skills going to waste and having to train missiles. I think the thing they don't understand is that it's relatively easy to train missiles, and compared to the gunnery skills needed to make lasers semi-effective its a breeze. Also, as long as this isn't the only plan to fix Ammar, we are okay. Lasers still need to be looked at, (cap? actual ship bonuses?) and beams still need to be able to be fit on our ships. Ammar still needs to be made more useful, but I'm starting to see this as at least a step in the right direction. And the NOS thing? Yeah, long overdue. hey im with u man , im going to train caldari an get me into a drake lol , nos/passive tanked drake ftw!!! Damn these whiners are a riot! hey whiners whineing about whiners are even more of a riot lolololol , but hey im going caldari an going to nos/passive tank a drake lol hey a scorp be even better :O
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:38:00 - [762] Originally by: Bad Liz Lol its not a setup that needs tweaking. When you make a ship based around 1 weapon, and then change the whole concept behind it without changing the ship then you're in big trouble. And I agree with the previous poster, CCP needs to learn how to change things in the game without nerfing as their only tool (obvious lack of imagination). NOS always had a clear tradeoff, you sacrifice a hardpoint for it. It would have been far more of a tradeoff if CCP made ships with all turret or launcher possible hardpoints. As usual there is little logic in the CCP decision and obviously far less input from the community. But we all know it was best for drone based ships...like the Pilgrim or the Curse. I spend everyday killing people in these ships and can't wait for the next raven to finally kill me thanks to this nerf...I mean balancing. Next time try and use tactics instead of the fotm ship. try it out on Sisi, the Curse is still more than capable of killing BSs...
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:42:00 - [763] Originally by: Roninwolfie Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Roninwolfie Originally by: Titus Lewis Alright, I'm starting to come around on the Khanid changes. At first, I was a little on the bandwagon of the people that were so upset about all the gunnery skills going to waste and having to train missiles. I think the thing they don't understand is that it's relatively easy to train missiles, and compared to the gunnery skills needed to make lasers semi-effective its a breeze. Also, as long as this isn't the only plan to fix Ammar, we are okay. Lasers still need to be looked at, (cap? actual ship bonuses?) and beams still need to be able to be fit on our ships. Ammar still needs to be made more useful, but I'm starting to see this as at least a step in the right direction. And the NOS thing? Yeah, long overdue. hey im with u man , im going to train caldari an get me into a drake lol , nos/passive tanked drake ftw!!! Damn these whiners are a riot! hey whiners whineing about whiners are even more of a riot lolololol , but hey im going caldari an going to nos/passive tank a drake lol hey a scorp be even better :O You cannot make a setup like that work on a Drake you moron, less of all in a Scorp! Do you even know anything about this game?! And I'm not whining about anything, for me CCP has done a great job with this patch, all they need to do is add a neut bonus and a few more PG to the faction ships that only have a nos bonus.
Enech Felbar	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:42:00 - [764] Originally by: Drash Kammatarr Hi, I'm sick of nerfing things that need no nerf. Nos needs no nerf. period. I bet that at least 90% of the people who shout for "nerf this, nerf that" belong to the following groups: a. New players b. Players who lack skills to do better c. deriving from b, Players who will only play for a short amount of time, because they simply can't get it into their itsy bitsy tiny little brains that players who trained for months (curse/pilgrim) are actually able to destroy their mighty ibis/reaper/whatever 'of doom'. But CCP always listens to their baby-cries, and with every patch we get something dumbed down, and the gaming experience and a lot of time invested for skilltraining goes down the drain. And in the end, these nerf-crying Players leave the game for good because they notice that they need another skill for mining mercoxite when they finally arrive in 0.0 space. I have to ask my self: why do I put so much effort and time into a Game which gets destroyed piece by piece? Well...maybe I won't do so much longer ;) Pretty much what he said. I dont get the 'nerf' mentality at all. Why not improve other ships instead of making the Curse / Pilgrim useless? Or give NOS a stacking penalty to avoid overuse on BS's or whatever.(But obviously not for the Curse / Pilgrim, they should be allowed to do the things they are supposed to do properly.) Or you could even just leave NOS alone!! It's been fine for the last 3 years..
TheDevilsLawyer	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:50:00 - [765] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer Edited by: TheDevilsLawyer on 01/08/2007 09:54:56 Originally by: PhantomVyper THIS IS A BOOST TO SHIPS THAT ARE NOT CAP STABLE WITHOUT HELP! If you need a nos in your current setup to keep your modules going, then this change won't affect you very much. Infact it will help you because your enemies won't be able to nos you dry UNLESS they spend more cap than you! Sorry, you and everyone else who is saying this is wrong. I will assume a "NOT CAP STABLE" ship goes up against a ship that does not depend on boosters or nos. Firstly, your ship is more cap-reliant than theirs. If you nos them down to your level they care far less than you that they are at a low cap. If the enemy is smart and realizes your setup depends on nos, they will purposely run themselves to low cap, your setup won't be able to nos the cap you need, and you will die. You're giving the enemy player control of a situation you previously had control over. If you nos them down to zero, then you are dead, not them, as your setup is cap-reliant. Additionally, you fail to take into account neutralizers. The best PvPers already use neuts as an alternative to or in combination with nos, if fitting neuts becomes common your cap-relaint setup will suffer FAR more than others. This change will make cap-reliant setups (pulse dual rep and the like) obselete. They won't be able to obtain the cap they need using nos because nos are unreliable and the enemy players know this. Sure, they don't have to face being nosed to death, rather, they commit nos-suicide or get neuted to death instead. And again I ask, show me a cap independent setup that relies on neuts. Cap unstable setups (dual reps and such), have never relied on nos alone to keep going, you'll always need a cap injector and always have. This change is a boost to that kind of setups, if they die to neuts or not is irrelevant, the fact that they did die whennever they found a nos (wich everyone was using in their PVP ships), and now they won't IS a boost. The fact is nos were used to break tanks. Now they can't be used to do this. People will look for the next best thing to break tanks and that is the neutralizer. It will be used, and it is just as effective at this purpose than nos. I'm not saying neuting ferox (genius! ), I'm saying a heavy neut, maybe two, will be used along with a cap booster. The end result is the problem isn't fixed at all. This nerf won't change anything except make nos useless in combat. There are better nerfs out there that balance nos better and can be used on neuts as well should that be necessary. The signature radius one comes to mind, or the stacking penalty, or the slots for nos/neuts similar to turret/launcher slots, among many others.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:56:00 - [766] Originally by: IPyric PhantomVyper stop forum spaming i dont think anyone really cares what you have to say, its quite clear your a tool :P I'm not forum spamming I'm replying to knee jerk posts that don't have a shred of evidence in them.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:04:00 - [767] Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer The fact is nos were used to break tanks. Now they can't be used to do this. People will look for the next best thing to break tanks and that is the neutralizer. It will be used, and it is just as effective at this purpose than nos. I'm not saying neuting ferox (genius! ), I'm saying a heavy neut, maybe two, will be used along with a cap booster. The end result is the problem isn't fixed at all. This nerf won't change anything except make nos useless in combat. There are better nerfs out there that balance nos better and can be used on neuts as well should that be necessary. The signature radius one comes to mind, or the stacking penalty, or the slots for nos/neuts similar to turret/launcher slots, among many others. Finnally a well thought out post, thank you. I agree with you on most of the things you said. The advantage to this is that whille a setup as you suggest will probably be made (the obvious ship for it is a Dominix for example), and also be fairly effective, you can't just slap a heavy neut on any setup and expect for it to work the same way as the nos did... For starters a neut requires more PG than nos and it also needs to use a fair bit of your own cap to function, so that cap booster will have to support the neuts and any active tank you may have (I really doubt a passive tank / neut setup is possible to achieve). So, well will this lead us? The neut alternative will not be used nearly as extensivelly as the nos currently are, wich means that cap dependant setups are more viable to use since they won't have a readilly available counter that everyone uses, so its a boost to those kind of setups, more notably to laser ships and to a lesser extent (since they are less cap hungry), to blaster setups as well.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:25:00 - [768] I would love to hear the new dev's thoughts on WORKING pilgrim/curse setups along with what most amarr pilots should do now without a key tool that actually makes their ships function in combat. And yeah way to boost caldari who already did not need any help. I can't wait to start fitting my ships with missiles or some nonsense like that + perhaps we can paint them over now and call Amarr ships Minmitar without the capacitor. All pvp pilots train for multiple weapons and NOS has nothing to do with it...CCP should wait and watch this threat grow with the number of people who disagree.
happymappy Amarr Fallout.	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:30:00 - [769] The nos Nerf makes pilgrims and curses more scary ebil neuts ftw. and yay time to do some more missile skills for meh damnation
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:38:00 - [770] I'm sympathetic that CCP wanted to do something to rein in the NOS Domi, but it's irresponsible to do so in a way that completely renders a wealth of other ships useless (Curse/Pilgrim). These are ships designed with NOS bonuses, and are not meant to be fitted with weapons. Nerf the Domi. Screw with its power grid. Add NOS penalties specific to that ship. I'd be interested in hearing CCP's suggestion on how to outfit my pilgrim's high slots now. Either that, or see if they'll refund every Amarr Recon pilot's Amarr Cruiser V skillpoints.

Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:43:00 - [771] This change simply leaves many ships broken and a number of key fitting setups not viable. I cannot believe that among all the options available to balance the NOS issue CCP chose this one. It will render the NOS useless and the NEUT is not a replacement for it. The NOS was largely used to help sustain double armor rep ships that also had a cap booster which paid for the repping while the NOS helped run everything else. Heavy cap dependent ships will simply not be able to use the neutralizer as a substitute and I don't understand why people talk about it as though it were. And yes us Amarr will enjoy carrying missiles along with cap boosters which already fill our cargo bays. As do those of us who fly ships which are based entirely on NOS bonuses and are not going to be adjusted whatsoever to compensate for this nerf.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:48:00 - [772] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Bad Liz Lol its not a setup that needs tweaking. When you make a ship based around 1 weapon, and then change the whole concept behind it without changing the ship then you're in big trouble. And I agree with the previous poster, CCP needs to learn how to change things in the game without nerfing as their only tool (obvious lack of imagination). NOS always had a clear tradeoff, you sacrifice a hardpoint for it. It would have been far more of a tradeoff if CCP made ships with all turret or launcher possible hardpoints. As usual there is little logic in the CCP decision and obviously far less input from the community. But we all know it was best for drone based ships...like the Pilgrim or the Curse. I spend everyday killing people in these ships and can't wait for the next raven to finally kill me thanks to this nerf...I mean balancing. Next time try and use tactics instead of the fotm ship. try it out on Sisi, the Curse is still more than capable of killing BSs... Thanks for the advice Viper, I've already been there and know what I'm talking about - its far from anything like what those ships used to work like. Any other jems you have while forum trolling or is that it? Hate people who's existence is based off making asinine comments to other people's posts.
altey mcalt	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:48:00 - [773] Been pure amarr for years. This is the straw that broke the camels back. Finally gonna succumb to the pressure and train another race. Gratz CCP.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:57:00 - [774] What's with this using bonuses to dictate range and fitting crap? Seriously, is this some kind of incredibly unfunny joke? Why not change the geddon bonus to beams only while you're at it, or maybe a raven that only gets bonuses to sieges? Nice job, you're set to nerf khanid ships in a way that no other ships in the game are nerfed, way to break new ground. OH btw..... Don't reduce the damnation's pg, let it keep 4 turret hardpoints and for the love of god make these new missile bonuses apply to more than just one sodding missile type!!!
Kranisos	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:59:00 - [775] Edited by: Kranisos on 01/08/2007 12:59:19 Bad News Can't we have a vote ingame for this Nos Nerf?
Falun Assad Caldari New Career Move Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:07:00 - [776] Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.47.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s So we result in one NOS behaiving exactly the same as before, adding a second gives a severe stacking penalty, but its good enough to halt the majority of regen, while giving the nosser a nice cap boost to sustain tank and whatnot, adding a third nos onto one target is pretty fruitless. In terms of big NOS vs Small ships, you're only taking the cap regenerated and not the reserves, so a small ship can't be zapped in one or two cycles of a nos. Issues* Small ships vs Big ships will need some sort of limit on how much energy NOS can steal, because if Small NOS take 40% of a Battleships regen then thats a huge amount of cap. But I dont think you can say small nos only takes 10% because then thats useless against other frigs. In order to fix this problem we simply take the transfer amount from before and use that as a MAX Cap/s transfer figure. In this way Frigates using Small Nosferatu I can only take a maximum of 2.6 Cap/s, no matter what ship they attack. What if the mega is on 100% cap? I get 40% of 0 regen! Fit a neut/make him activate some mods, pull his cap down until you think it is around 30% and then switch to nos, thus adding a tactical element to Neut/NOS combo's. Ideally you want to get someone at 30% with your nos because this is where maximum regen is achieved. EDIT: Made a big mistake on my maths - fixed. EDIT: Added some more of that maths stuff. EDIT: Added answers to possible issues, formatting. This is a nice and very elegant approach, because: a.: you have to use neuts to kill the targets cap b.: a heavily nossed ship can still survive for quite some time (cap booster) c.: it doesnt break dedicated NOS ships Excellent! Much better than what CCP has in mind.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:08:00 - [777] Originally by: Bad Liz Thanks for the advice Viper, I've already been there and know what I'm talking about - its far from anything like what those ships used to work like. Any other jems you have while forum trolling or is that it? Hate people who's existence is based off making asinine comments to other people's posts. Are the Curse / Pilgrim worse than they where before? Yes they are, no one is saying otherwise. Are you actually saying that you can't find a Curse / Pilgrim setup that can perform in a similar faction as it did before the patch?
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:10:00 - [778] I hope this is a joke. CCP Dev's have obviously not played Eve in sometime so I will help out. Amarr players play Amarr because they want to use lasers, while Caldari players play Caldari because they like using missiles. See the purpose of having ships oriented around different weapons is so that players can choose different gameplay styles and FOCUS their skills. I wont talk about the NOS thing, which is just absurd but the Khanid changes are beyond hilarious. Here is what will rapidly follow. 1.) The price of all those ships dropping since nobody is going to buy them. 2.) Amarr players switching to playing another race or switching to play a game with more rational devs. 3.) A continuous cry from many of us who wish to have our time training Amarr and also our ships now refunded. I am sure everyone will be excited to find they now have several mil in SP to train before their currently owned ships work again. goes to sleep and hopes upon awaking this will have been a bad dream
Delnas White-Noise Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:11:00 - [779] Edited by: Delnas on 01/08/2007 13:12:02 Ouch. Logged on this morning, noticed I had 12 hours left till I could fly Amarr Recons. It was a very good moment. ^_^ Then the new guy in our corp broke the news that NOS has been utterly nerfed to hell. Imagines of useless Curses & Pilgrims filled my mind, all being trashed. Went to the Dev Blog to see what the big mess is all about. Does not look all that bad. I'm not a pilot of a Curse yet, but it seems to me I can just run my MWD to kill my cap, as I'd be doing most of the time anyway, all the while killing there cap. Once I kill both our CAP, switch to a neut, hit my Cap Booster, and finish the job. Not a big deal, even if there are not other targets around to NOS after my primary goes down. Not much of a nerf. Just an alternation. **** White-Noise Nuff said.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:14:00 - [780] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Bad Liz Thanks for the advice Viper, I've already been there and know what I'm talking about - its far from anything like what those ships used to work like. Any other jems you have while forum trolling or is that it? Hate people who's existence is based off making asinine comments to other people's posts. Are the Curse / Pilgrim worse than they where before? Yes they are, no one is saying otherwise. Are you actually saying that you can't find a Curse / Pilgrim setup that can perform in a similar faction as it did before the patch? Sure. You're right. One can use a fork as a knife, to slice things sideways. I can also steer my car with my knees, but that doesn't make it a good idea. So yes, in that sense, the ship can perform in a similar fashion. While we're at it, let's take the Raven, subtract all missile launchers and replace them with laser bonuses. Can the raven now perform in a similar fashion? Sure.

Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:18:00 - [781] Originally by: Delnas Edited by: Delnas on 01/08/2007 13:12:02 Ouch. Logged on this morning, noticed I had 12 hours left till I could fly Amarr Recons. It was a very good moment. ^_^ Then the new guy in our corp broke the news that NOS has been utterly nerfed to hell. Imagines of useless Curses & Pilgrims filled my mind, all being trashed. Went to the Dev Blog to see what the big mess is all about. Does not look all that bad. I'm not a pilot of a Curse yet, but it seems to me I can just run my MWD to kill my cap, as I'd be doing most of the time anyway, all the while killing there cap. Once I kill both our CAP, switch to a neut, hit my Cap Booster, and finish the job. Not a big deal, even if there are not other targets around to NOS after my primary goes down. Not much of a nerf. Just an alternation. Trust me, get the curse and fit it out with those ideas in mind and see how it goes...been Amarr recons for some time. Don't put rigs on it though because you will be selling it soon.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:20:00 - [782] Originally by: Delnas Edited by: Delnas on 01/08/2007 13:12:02 Ouch. Logged on this morning, noticed I had 12 hours left till I could fly Amarr Recons. It was a very good moment. ^_^ Then the new guy in our corp broke the news that NOS has been utterly nerfed to hell. Imagines of useless Curses & Pilgrims filled my mind, all being trashed. Went to the Dev Blog to see what the big mess is all about. Does not look all that bad. I'm not a pilot of a Curse yet, but it seems to me I can just run my MWD to kill my cap, as I'd be doing most of the time anyway, all the while killing there cap. Once I kill both our CAP, switch to a neut, hit my Cap Booster, and finish the job. Not a big deal, even if there are not other targets around to NOS after my primary goes down. Not much of a nerf. Just an alternation. That setup will work like magic. As long as you find a way to get more powergrid... and as long as no one shoots at you, forcing you to tank some damage. If no one shoots at you, yeah, you're set.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:21:00 - [783] I've assembled a list of personal quotes in other threads to apply to this Dev watched Thread. They are about the Damnation. Quote #1 I liked the flexibility the Damnation gives me. The Damnation gave me options, four Lasers, or four Heavy Missiles with three Armor warfares. With three high-slots already used, I had a choice, True Amarr Lasers, or Caldari Missiles, four of either or a mix. This is not the case any more. Quote #2 (Interesting to see this has already been mentioned on the first page of this Thread) Someone mentioned the speed, that is true, a Damnation doesn't go very fast and with Heavy Assault Missiles you need to be in tight to be effective. I think at least let it be Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles if you simply MUST nerf it's Amarr origin. Quote #3 You have to train Amarr skills to get this ship.. and there is NOT ONE Amarr bonus to them. All the ships leading up to a Damnation all have Lasers bonuses now you have to spend additional time learning a rather large skill set to be effective in a Damnation after a rather long time to get to fly one. You thought Damnations where RARE now, after the "Newish" factor wears off after a couple of weeks the Damnation might as well be retired from service. No one is going train months for an Damnation, when you have the Vulture available in the same amount of time. And while you're training the Vulture all your Caldari ships along the way need Missiles to be effective. Honestly this is the worse thing to happen, train a Amarr based ship only to turn around and train a weapons system that no other Amarr ship uses.. Might as well convert it to a Faction ship. Quote #4 (From the heart) What I really feel was wasting time training is the Lasers skills. Just like every other Amarr player out there training laser skills to support your available ships is now wasted. Laser skills are just getting more the more tossed aside as half the Amarr fleet turns to Missile Boats. It's pretty simple here, if you turn a Damnation into a short range missile boat why would anyone train for it? You can get a Vulture (Fleet Command Ship) in the same time. Take a look at the specs for Vulture. 7 High 6 Med 4 Low 5 Launchers 5 Turret CPU 545 Power 1275 Ok so what?!? Well It can fit 3 Warfare Mods and it has a choice of going Hybrid Turrets or Missile Turrets. And it can fit Heavy Missiles Damnation 7 High 4 Med 5 Low 4 Launchers (+1) 4 Turret (-2) CPU 440 Power 1510 (-210, 1300) Who in EVE would want to fly a Damnation with those specs when looking at the Vulture side by side... If you want to bring it out of the frozen waste land the Damnation is already in you should leave it the way it is and bump up the Launcher AND Turrets to +1 and give it Laser Bonuses instead of removing all sighs of Amarr origin. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Amaldor Themodius	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:22:00 - [784] Wow.. i am so happy such a great turn out of feedback on this terrible nerf of amarr and NOS has attracted such a large response.. The only point missing now is a response from CCP.. are they even reading this forum.. do they have nothing to contribute to the topic.. Silence imho is a much worse response than a poor response... Come on CCP put urselves into the fray and lets hear your thoughts many good suggestions have been offered in these 28 pages dont we deserve a response ?? Personally i hope the nerf gets nerfed my gaming experience is better in this current environ and i dont fly dedicated PVP NOS boats or fly Amarr....
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:25:00 - [785] One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens. I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too. Yay.
Agent Tarvits	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:30:00 - [786] NOS changes look good, but not the Khanid Changes, armor tanked Missile boats arent a good idea imo.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:30:00 - [787] This patch simply wont work and if CCP attempts to implement it they will quickly see why. I am hopeful this thread wont disintegrate into pure ***ing but if thats what it takes for CCP to see their own idiocy then I'm signing on. It is one thing to give people the option of training additional skills to create more diverse setups, but its totally different to force them to do so - completely kill their skill training and ruin entire lines of ships that people own or have grown to love. I think CCP is going to see this thread explode very quickly with "input from the community" of **ed of people.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:41:00 - [788] Originally by: Slade Bolgard One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens. I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too. Yay. Strange then that I can't seem to find a single solo kill of yours involving a Pilgrim...
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:43:00 - [789] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Slade Bolgard One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens. I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too. Yay. Strange then that I can't seem to find a single solo kill of yours involving a Pilgrim... Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it.
IPyric	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:44:00 - [790] Maybe CCP can just keep everyone happy by letting amarr players that like these changes go on with them and the ones that dont, prolly most of us.. have our SP's put into another race like minmitar or gal.

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:49:00 - [791] Originally by: Slade Bolgard Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it. Not a problem, I'm bored at work so don't really have anything better to do atm. So for some positive input, how exactly does this change affects your gang running ship then? Because most ppl complaining about the Curse / Pilgrim are doing so in regard to their solo abilities.
IPyric	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:49:00 - [792] Originally by: Wizzkidy Well I have been messing about with the setups on the test server. The Khanid Changes are just wrong The range on those HAM's are SO POOR! Ok I have some skilling to do in missiles but WTF? there travel time is SO SHORT I have to be so close to my target. My Sac didn't last 5 minutes. The dmg was poor too, yea alright I only have HAM lvl 2 atm but even then I cannot see this a ship I will use in the future, not when they have such short range its silly. Thats why no one uses them :P they giving them to amarr cause caldari didnt want them :)
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:50:00 - [793] It's true - Hammar should name his Pilgrim "Farmerbane." He's the authority on anti-farmer Pilgrimages.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:53:00 - [794] Originally by: Agent Tarvits NOS changes look good, but not the Khanid Changes, armor tanked Missile boats arent a good idea imo. No? As minmatar, I would kill for a armor tanked missile ship. No tracking involved means you can use a extreme speed setup and still hit for full damage. Thats why the Vaga doesnt have many missile points - it would be overpowered. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:54:00 - [795] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Slade Bolgard Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it. Not a problem, I'm bored at work so don't really have anything better to do atm. So for some positive input, how exactly does this change affects your gang running ship then? Because most ppl complaining about the Curse / Pilgrim are doing so in regard to their solo abilities. Simple: The pilgrim is usually getting fired upon in a gang of 2-4 people. Most of the killing is done with 2 man squads, and sometimes it's a 1 on 1. Just the way it is sometimes. The problem is that the pilgrim relies on the Nos to break the enemy's tank, since it has no guns. Under this new setup, with a combination of neutralizers and Nosses, the pilgrim will have next to no cap left over by the time it's able to break a tank. This means that the pilgrim has virtually no way to run its own already modest tank in the midst of the fight, so it ends up being a battleship firing missiles against a tech 2 cruiser with hardly any armor, that can't rep. The pilgrim NEEDS to be able to run its modest tank.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:54:00 - [796] Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2007 13:54:49 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Agent Tarvits NOS changes look good, but not the Khanid Changes, armor tanked Missile boats arent a good idea imo. No? As minmatar, I would kill for a armor tanked missile ship. No tracking involved means you can use a extreme speed setup and still hit for full damage. Thats why the Vaga doesnt have many missile points - it would be overpowered. Jim, The Sac won't last 5 minutes unless you ignore the bonus and put heavy missiles on it which even then its a poor craft and you will die cause your so slow. HAMS have terrible range its almost stupid
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:55:00 - [797] Originally by: Hammar Wolf The CPU killboard is new. But keep trolling you might find our forums and keep posting there in case this thread dies. Check my pilgrim kills while you're out there - I also post here as Bad Liz and I'd love to meed someone here who kills more per day in a Pilgrim than I do. I'm not trolling I'm trying to get you guys to post some reasonable coments on how this changes really are that bad for the Curse / Pilgrim. So I extend the question I just made to the alliance mate to you: how does this change affects your gang going Pilgrim? You also mentioned as Bad Liz that you had tested the changes on Sisi. How badly did it wen't? What ships where you able to kill before that you can't kill now? What wen't wrong in those fights? What kind of weaknesses did you find in your setup that you think can't be overcome with a diferent setup?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:56:00 - [798] Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 13:55:50 Originally by: Falun Assad Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.47.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s So we result in one NOS behaiving exactly the same as before, adding a second gives a severe stacking penalty, but its good enough to halt the majority of regen, while giving the nosser a nice cap boost to sustain tank and whatnot, adding a third nos onto one target is pretty fruitless. In terms of big NOS vs Small ships, you're only taking the cap regenerated and not the reserves, so a small ship can't be zapped in one or two cycles of a nos. Issues* Small ships vs Big ships will need some sort of limit on how much energy NOS can steal, because if Small NOS take 40% of a Battleships regen then thats a huge amount of cap. But I dont think you can say small nos only takes 10% because then thats useless against other frigs. In order to fix this problem we simply take the transfer amount from before and use that as a MAX Cap/s transfer figure. In this way Frigates using Small Nosferatu I can only take a maximum of 2.6 Cap/s, no matter what ship they attack. What if the mega is on 100% cap? I get 40% of 0 regen! Fit a neut/make him activate some mods, pull his cap down until you think it is around 30% and then switch to nos, thus adding a tactical element to Neut/NOS combo's. Ideally you want to get someone at 30% with your nos because this is where maximum regen is achieved. EDIT: Made a big mistake on my maths - fixed. EDIT: Added some more of that maths stuff. EDIT: Added answers to possible issues, formatting. This is a nice and very elegant approach, because: a.: you have to use neuts to kill the targets cap b.: a heavily nossed ship can still survive for quite some time (cap booster) c.: it doesnt break dedicated NOS ships Excellent! Much better than what CCP has in mind. Lets just hope someone from CCP is reading this epic thread and flags the idea up for consideration. Prays ============================================ NOS change based on %regen
IPyric	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:59:00 - [799] indeed lets hope they come to their sences
Olaf Rasmussen Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:01:00 - [800] Great changes! Really good boost to Amarr and blasterboats.

Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:04:00 - [801] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Hammar Wolf The CPU killboard is new. But keep trolling you might find our forums and keep posting there in case this thread dies. Check my pilgrim kills while you're out there - I also post here as Bad Liz and I'd love to meed someone here who kills more per day in a Pilgrim than I do. I'm not trolling I'm trying to get you guys to post some reasonable coments on how this changes really are that bad for the Curse / Pilgrim. So I extend the question I just made to the alliance mate to you: how does this change affects your gang going Pilgrim? You also mentioned as Bad Liz that you had tested the changes on Sisi. How badly did it wen't? What ships where you able to kill before that you can't kill now? What wen't wrong in those fights? What kind of weaknesses did you find in your setup that you think can't be overcome with a diferent setup? Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death. Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly.
aldarrin	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:05:00 - [802] on the bright side, Amarr players will finally be able to deal kinetic, explosive damage. Maybe the damnation will replace the nighthawk as the ultimate PVE ship.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:07:00 - [803] There is also simply no way a pilgrim can have 2 NOS power a running neutralizer and an armor rep at the same time. Again, instant cap death.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:08:00 - [804] Originally by: aldarrin on the bright side, Amarr players will finally be able to deal kinetic, explosive damage. Maybe the damnation will replace the nighthawk as the ultimate PVE ship. With heavy assault missiles? I know where you're coming from because I have been there myself, most refer to its as happy fun drug land.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:09:00 - [805] I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. -------------
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:10:00 - [806] Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer.
Elliminator Amarr Dark and Light inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:11:00 - [807] i think the kanid mk 2 changes are stupid amarr is a laser based race not missiles now all amarr pilots hav to learn missile skills. we are putting or hav put alot of time in lasers to make them effective now we hav to train all over again to be able to use missiles/ use the ships effective like we did before if i wanted a missile based race i would hav choosen the bloody caldari race. but i didnt and want to keep the lasers instead of the missiles as alot of amarr ppl will agree to i think plz dont nerf the khanid mk2 ships Pod Or Be Podded..
Quilan Masaq Caldari Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:12:00 - [808] Love the new Khanid ships, they fit nicely into a niche not usually explored. Short range missile brawlers, lovely jubbly.
Maximus Caelum Clan Eshin	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:12:00 - [809] W00T. I'm glad you're nerfing nos. I hate it. Go go cap guns. But seriously: Dont do a Sony, listen to your players. The stacking penalty idea sounds good. Coulnt you just add it in the missiles/guns limitations where you can have a max number on your ship? my 2 cents. Max
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:14:00 - [810] Originally by: Maximus Caelum W00T. I'm glad you're nerfing nos. I hate it. Go go cap guns. But seriously: Dont do a Sony, listen to your players. The stacking penalty idea sounds good. Coulnt you just add it in the missiles/guns limitations where you can have a max number on your ship? my 2 cents. Max Exactly - I have no problem with them tweaking Nos - adding diminishing returns, or whatever. As long as it's well-thought out and doesn't completely break a line of ships.

Quilan Masaq Caldari Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:14:00 - [811] Originally by: Elliminator i think the kanid mk 2 changes are stupid amarr is a laser based race not missiles now all amarr pilots hav to learn missile skills. we are putting or hav put alot of time in lasers to make them effective now we hav to train all over again to be able to use missiles/ use the ships effective like we did before if i wanted a missile based race i would hav choosen the bloody caldari race. but i didnt and want to keep the lasers instead of the missiles as alot of amarr ppl will agree to i think plz dont nerf the khanid mk2 ships There's nothing making you use the missile ships, Amarr is still packed with laser boats... hell everything bar half the T2 ships are laser based... so its not like all your SP are suddenly wasted. Furthermore, training up missiles isn't like training up guns its considerably less SP to be half decent with missiles, and you only need concentrait on HAM and Rockets... and only HAM if you don't plan on flying anything smaller than a cruiser...
khosta	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:16:00 - [812] Edited by: khosta on 01/08/2007 14:17:46 Sorry havent had time to read through whole thread in case this has been covered already. I have a serious concern about the nos changes. Nos works the same as before if you have less cap than your opponent. Those who use capless weapons (missiles and proectiles) can always afford to have lower cap levels than those who use cap consuming weapons (blasters and lasers), and could therefore exploit the proposed nos changes by deliberately running with cap dry. With both ship types on empty or near empty cap, the capless weapon users will now be able to dump all their cap boosters into their tanks, while the cap consuming weapon users will need to split their cap booster charges between weapons and tank, with intermittent weapon fire at best. The capless weapon users will continue to be able to run their weapons 100% and eventually wear down the opponent in the cap booster attrition war. So in short, nos becomes useless for cap consuming weapon users, and pretty much same as before to capless weapon users. Therefore major nerf to amarr, considerable nerf to gallente, significant boost for minmatar, major boost to caldari. Hope i'm wrong
Dinkums Magoo	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:20:00 - [813] these changes are complete garbage... I never thought I'd say this... but, if implemented, I think I'll be quiting eve.... and yes! You can have my stuff... eve mail me why you deserve it, and I'll consider.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:20:00 - [814] Khanid have only six ships, one of which is the Anathema. Basically all the rest of the ships use lasers. You don't have to train missile skills. Even if you think that you absolutely have to fly one of these five ships, you can train T2 Rockets and all the support up to 4 in around 20 days. Three of the five use rockets. -------------
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:21:00 - [815] Simplest and easiest solution is to create NOS/Neutralizer specific slots on a ship limiting how many could possibly be put on. It keeps the amarr recons in their role and prevents the crazy all NOS ship setups that others are prone to, i.e. the Dominix which finds a way to break everything that is good in eve.
aldarrin	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:24:00 - [816] HAMs get **** range, but excellent dps. And you get to choose your damage type. Setting the ship up is just like setting up a ship for autocannons, blasters, or pulses. Fit an AB for PVE, or MWD for PVP. Lock, close range, pop. An Arbalest HAM has a higher dps than dread guristas heavy missile launchers / caldari navy heavy missile launchers. They do a decent bit a damage. And the DEVs promised faction HAMs soon too, so they'll get the usual 14% increase to dps that faction missile launchers get. I think you'll be fine. On a different note, DEVs: you promised to look into capital shield module fitting requirements / caldari capital ships for Rev 2.2. You haven't forgot us have you?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:25:00 - [817] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Simplest and easiest solution is to create NOS/Neutralizer specific slots on a ship limiting how many could possibly be put on. It keeps the amarr recons in their role and prevents the crazy all NOS ship setups that others are prone to, i.e. the Dominix which finds a way to break everything that is good in eve. This in NO WAY addresses the issue of Large NOS vs Small Ships. However this does. ============================================ NOS change based on %regen
Miss Hue	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:26:00 - [818] If its so over powered why dont we see only domis or only curses? Because its not over powered. 2000 grid versus 9 grid. You should get more effect out of the nos! Its a risk you take going in your inty, that your going to get nossed. Everyone knows what they do and how theyre going to work, and the tactics have worked so far. I spent the time training rook only to get that nerfed, then I get a curse and you nerf that too. perhaps you should nerf the arazu, after all thats the next one. Perhaps crank up the price of the domi with increased mineral reqs? then make the mega cheaper by reducing the minerals. Or just give the domi 3 high slots. Theres so many ideas: PLEASE DONT USE THIS ONE.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:27:00 - [819] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death. Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly. You make some interesting points, and most ppl are saying that the Pilgrim is hit alot harder than the Curse, mainly because of its shorter range and bigger dependence on actually having to tank some damage. All in all you are probably right. the Pilgrim as it is is finished as a an all-purpose EW platform. The 2 damps + burst ecm can't really be sustainable when used with one or two neuts simply because you'd need to cram a cap booster in there and you can't really remove anything from your mids without cripling you... On the other hand, it still is a very good TD platform since you can use just 2 TDs without any problem and use the other mid-slot to fit in a cap booster. Is this so wrong? That is up to CCP to decide I guess.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:30:00 - [820] Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. Im a Curse pilot (a khanid ship design) and its really pretty stuffed by the nos changes (post sisi testing yesterday and today). However I can probably live with it 'just'. The Pilgrim on the other hand is now not worth the trit its made from. Lacking the Curses option to go to range and damp the effect of the nos change means it can support its EW (tracking distruptors) at a pinch - but without being able to penalize the targets cap it simply doesnt have the dps. The Sacri looks 'ok' and the meta gaming effect of less nos being used - well we'll have to wait and see how that plays out. It might advantage Amarr ships (with their typically higher cap) but I think its more likely to benefit Stabber / Vagabond pilots. It's quite a boost to many minmatar ships. And thats what I'm training now - minmatar. Adapt or die, or so they say. C. PS If ccp have to change the malediction please leave the option to fit guns - it looks naf without them. - sig designer - eve mail

SleepyOSU	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:33:00 - [821] I have read most of this thread, and I must say that there are a lot of good ideas here. From a Gal background I am most interested in the nos Nerf. I am glad to see that there are so many people here so passionate about improving the game and providing options to CCP, so that they don't make such a nos nerf that would be unfairly adversely affecting a selection of the population that has come to rely on this module to pvp. I would like to see a post from CCP stating the following. That they are reading every post that includes proof by summary of ideas offered; and the problems identified by players here and most importantly, what specifically is the goal they are trying to achieve. And that they are using this information in consideration of the best option to achieve their goals and that they welcome further input, and that the currently proposed nerf is not to be expected as currently proposed. And lastly, that they projected problems are addressed individually as to how the new projected changes have taken into consideration these problems. My thoughts as of now... I believe the best proposed resolution to date is, nos being limited to cap regen. I think that to not penalize pilots with good regen skills that the limit should be calculated on non skilled regen (still including mods). It still allows you to effectively drain out a target. It still allows u to still use additional cap to tank. and allows target to use injectors for regen for longer battles.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:40:00 - [822] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Hammar Wolf Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death. Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly. You make some interesting points, and most ppl are saying that the Pilgrim is hit alot harder than the Curse, mainly because of its shorter range and bigger dependence on actually having to tank some damage. All in all you are probably right. the Pilgrim as it is is finished as a an all-purpose EW platform. The 2 damps + burst ecm can't really be sustainable when used with one or two neuts simply because you'd need to cram a cap booster in there and you can't really remove anything from your mids without cripling you... On the other hand, it still is a very good TD platform since you can use just 2 TDs without any problem and use the other mid-slot to fit in a cap booster. Is this so wrong? That is up to CCP to decide I guess. The only problem I have with that is this: If you just look at it as a TD platform, then it's essentially just an arbitrator that can cloak, and its Tech II bonus goes out the window.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:41:00 - [823] The pilgrim in many respects is totally shot. Its value as an EW platform is mainly in a fleet role for which everyone uses the curse anyway. And as I see curse pilots complaining as well the value in purchasing it is also questionable. I will try to make the pilgrim work, broken as it is now, but am very upset about the prospect of these changes. I think CCP devs took a long ride on the crazy bus before dropping these ideas on us.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:52:00 - [824] Originally by: SleepyOSU I have read most of this thread, and I must say that there are a lot of good ideas here. From a Gal background I am most interested in the nos Nerf. I am glad to see that there are so many people here so passionate about improving the game and providing options to CCP, so that they don't make such a nos nerf that would be unfairly adversely affecting a selection of the population that has come to rely on this module to pvp. I would like to see a post from CCP stating the following. That they are reading every post that includes proof by summary of ideas offered; and the problems identified by players here and most importantly, what specifically is the goal they are trying to achieve. And that they are using this information in consideration of the best option to achieve their goals and that they welcome further input, and that the currently proposed nerf is not to be expected as currently proposed. And lastly, that they projected problems are addressed individually as to how the new projected changes have taken into consideration these problems. My thoughts as of now... I believe the best proposed resolution to date is, nos being limited to cap regen. I think that to not penalize pilots with good regen skills that the limit should be calculated on non skilled regen (still including mods). It still allows you to effectively drain out a target. It still allows u to still use additional cap to tank. and allows target to use injectors for regen for longer battles. The easiest way to fix this is to just add NOS slots for particular ships. That allows CCP to fix the Domi problem by just giving it, say, one NOS slot, while not rendering ships that were made specifically for NOS (curse/pilgrim) useless.
Falun Assad Caldari New Career Move Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:07:00 - [825] i agree, allthough it is not the best way to nerf the nos, it is definitely the easiest. i wouldnt even call it a Nos slot, but rather a slot for remote reppers, cloaks, nos, neuts and alike...
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:09:00 - [826] Originally by: Slade Bolgard The only problem I have with that is this: If you just look at it as a TD platform, then it's essentially just an arbitrator that can cloak, and its Tech II bonus goes out the window. It doesn't really go out the window because you can use the cap booster to help sustain the neut. A fully skilled Pilgrim drains around 30 energy/s with neuts, its is a really strong bonus. But the easier way for CCP to keep the Pilgrim up without changing the nos nerf (wich I ultimatelly think its really good), would be to give it a bonus to allow it to use nos even when the target is bellow your cap, this bonus would probably have to replace the drone bonus (dropping its sub-par DPS even lower), or the TD bonus (making amarr the "energy EW" race). This is off course assuming that CCP thinks that the Curse / Pilgrim are fine the way they are right now wich none of us really knows...
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:13:00 - [827] Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand, Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school. Quote: and it leaves quite a few ships broken [bloodraider factionals] and in need of fixing (having played on SISI more with my curse, it is sorely lacking in DPS to make other players break their own tanks) I would agree... At this time, I would at least give CCP some credit in thinking that they'd fix these somehow (probably just change the NOS only skill bonuses to NOS/NEUT bonuses like on the Curse/Pilgrim). The Pilgrim, however, is hurting a bit. Maybe change it from an amount to the range bonus would help, I dunno. However, the Curse appears to be fine for anyone who isn't just a FOTM/solopwn trainer (they are the ones who seem to have problems grasping any new tactics or accepting that it's almost the same, you just have to pay attention to the game instead of F1-F5 /afk).
Falun Assad Caldari New Career Move Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:23:00 - [828] The point i dont get is, why are people for this nerf, although they agree that it is a problem for many of the dedicated nos ships, while there are much better solutions out there...
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:23:00 - [829] Originally by: Liang Nuren Uh, damn, glad I didn't spend the last month training for the curse/pilgrim. Because they'll suck now. Of all the suggested good solutions (poison the chalice, sig radius, tracking, etc), they pick a crappy one. At least the curse/pilgrim will suck as bad as everyone else's recons again! God, this thread delivers! Liang Yeah its a shame less idiots flying them now, now if I see one I know the pilot most likely knows what he is doing and is less likely to feck up. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 667mhh 3-3-3-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:27:00 - [830] Originally by: Slade Bolgard Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Slade Bolgard Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it. Not a problem, I'm bored at work so don't really have anything better to do atm. So for some positive input, how exactly does this change affects your gang running ship then? Because most ppl complaining about the Curse / Pilgrim are doing so in regard to their solo abilities. Simple: The pilgrim is usually getting fired upon in a gang of 2-4 people. Most of the killing is done with 2 man squads, and sometimes it's a 1 on 1. Just the way it is sometimes. The problem is that the pilgrim relies on the Nos to break the enemy's tank, since it has no guns. Under this new setup, with a combination of neutralizers and Nosses, the pilgrim will have next to no cap left over by the time it's able to break a tank. This means that the pilgrim has virtually no way to run its own already modest tank in the midst of the fight, so it ends up being a battleship firing missiles against a tech 2 cruiser with hardly any armor, that can't rep. The pilgrim NEEDS to be able to run its modest tank. Just nos every time you are low, 5% BS cap can run a cruiser MWD --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 667mhh 3-3-3-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.

Skool Daze	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:45:00 - [831] Do not bring this crap to tranquility. NOS is good as it is, it just needs stacking nerf because people are equipping 4-5 of them on same ship. It should stacking nerf like all other modules like 1. 1.0 2. 0.8 3. 0.5 4. 0.2 so on. About Khanid changes, the game didn't have an armor tanking missile ship, it's good to have few.
Kel Dario Amarr M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:47:00 - [832] After giving this nosferatu change a fair bit of thought I am certain that I can adapt most of my characters ship setups for it. I will use neutralisers instead where I can. However the Amarr nos-ships will still suffer from this "fix", especially the Pilgrim. It will have a harder time soloing. Also I believe that within a few weeks we will start to see people whining about energy neutralisers instead. They will write threads with: "WHAAA MY CAP GOT NEUTED MY GUNS COULDN'T FIRE CCP NERF IT NOW!!!11" But that's life I guess. //Kel
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:57:00 - [833] I'd like to see energy vampires affect cap recharge rather than pure cap. Rather than one-for-one energy transfer, it would improve cap recharge rate percentage on the nossing ship and reduce the recharge percentage on the target ship. That way, the nos user still gets a benefit, but can't wipe out the cap of their opponent. Neutralizers would still be necessary and would be more unique without an "easy" module like the current nos minimizing its usefulness. Nos plus neut could allow dedicated teams to both drain cap and significantly slow its regeneration. It would require a combination of fittings and tactics, and would better level the playing field between large and small ships. Maybe the combination of killing both cap and recharge rate is too overpowered, but it does intrigue me.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 15:59:00 - [834] Edited by: Aramendel on 01/08/2007 16:01:13 Originally by: Arana Tellen Just nos every time you are low, 5% BS cap can run a cruiser MWD And then it's 4..3..2..1..0%..he is out of cap, you are too and he warps away cause you cannot maintain scram. Nevermind that as was said a pilgrim needs to tank since it has only 12k range with its nosses. And it cannot maintain a single rep tank, EW and scram with it's own cap recharge. Getting yourself to 0% cap and using the targets cap to keep that up is no option either, because by the time your taget is out of cap it won't instantly explode but will still have plenty of hitpoints left, more than a pilgrim has with full health.
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:11:00 - [835] The NOS change is ABSOLUTELY NONSENSE. Curse: Repeatedly tested on Sisi (recon lvl 5 + talisman implants) against a Megathron (gallente bs lvl 5) using hvy cap injector, a full load of 800cap charges and hammerheads. The Curse has become a shadow of what it once was. Basically you have to maintain your cap between 15% to 25% in order to NOS reasonably. Since now the fight becomes much longer than it was due to the decreased NOS drain, you CANNOT use a neutralizer effectively coupled with NOS against a battleship using charges because at the end it hurts more your cap than his. Also the damage received by the Curse is higher since the fight stands longer, therefore you need to regenerate either your shield or armor according to your flavor. This also means that you can forget to use an MWD since you will run out of cap and get a crapload of damage between the moment your speed drop until you have enough cap to sustain your MWD again in parallel to the warp & tracking disruptors which cannot go offline at that precise moment if you don't want to be toast. CCP's algorithm makes that the NOS effectivity is inversely proportional to the capacitor load of your target. When you inflict damage to your target, you induce said target to repair the damage which as interesting side effect decreases the differential between the respective capacitor loads of the ships, this in turn renders your NOS less effective. If we were to apply the same principle to weapons & armor or shield, it would mean that without switching ammo, less armor/shield your target has left and less damage your ammo inflicts. If someone finds the principle smart, I can point him to a good shrink... Pilgrim: R.I.P. It's so depressing I won't even go into the details. Those who have recon 5 and know the ship inside out will understand what I mean. For all I care the other ones can go to hell and back...
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:11:00 - [836] I feel utterly embarrassed I have level 5 BC, level 4 Command ship and my Armor tanking Damnation, that now costs more the battleship can't kill anything larger then a cruiser.. Tested it on the test server it's a complete joke. Took me 15 minutes to get into range of a battleship webbing me. Sure I tanked it the whole time, and when I got there I did a whopping 20% damage to his shields before my cap finally gave in. I want my Logistics SP refunded for HAC skills please, I'll go fly a real Amarr ship, the Absolution.. It may be called the Damnation, but if this patch goes though the name will suite it more then you think.. You'll be damned if you can find anyone willing to fly it, and if you are I'll be damned if you can kill anything in it. Worse patch ever. The NOS changes don't bother me, in fact I welcome it. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:12:00 - [837] Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06 Originally by: Borasao Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand, Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school. Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water... ============================================ NOS change based on %regen
Xtro 2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:13:00 - [838] so can i just confirm a few things incase i dont quite understand fully. Is the nos change only based on a % of ship A and B's cap, so that if you have say 2 battleships, the qty of cap drained would be usefull to either but only if the nossing ship is lower in cap to the second (meaning the person you attack is always going to have more cap than you because you have to have less for them to do anything usefull other than make pretty flashing lights?). If so, what happens when a cruiser nosses a battleship, is it still % vs %, the cruiser having a much lower cap size total compared to the battleship, would this mean the cruiser still cannot nos any decent qty of cap from the battleship because its low size cap is at say 80% and the battleships much higher cap is also at its 80% meaning the battleship would not lose any significant/useful amount of cap ? if ive got it bang on, i dont see how they can be usefull at all, it certainly wouldnt let me tackle a larger size/class of ship in a smaller one, as i see it id be better of with cap rechargers and cap rigs and just fitting more guns. And id only use neuts if i was in a ship class larger attacking a smaller target, just because id have cap to burn anyways. Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder.
Xtro 2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:14:00 - [839] Originally by: Falun Assad The point i dont get is, why are people for this nerf, although they agree that it is a problem for many of the dedicated nos ships, while there are much better solutions out there... because they throw a tantrum and want mummy and daddy to make it all better. Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder.
Asterixm Minmatar Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:19:00 - [840] Originally by: Kel Dario Also I believe that within a few weeks we will start to see people whining about energy neutralisers instead. They will write threads with: "WHAAA MY CAP GOT NEUTED MY GUNS COULDN'T FIRE CCP NERF IT NOW!!!11" yup it was same for ecm ship, nanoship, now it's nos ship .... who is next ? will bet on vaga nerf. /me thinks that eve is going to be designed for carebears.

Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:21:00 - [841] Quote: The only problem I have with that is this: If you just look at it as a TD platform, then it's essentially just an arbitrator that can cloak, and its Tech II bonus goes out the window. Which, in comparison to Falcon and Blackbird, makes it balanced perfectly. It's absurd that people are expecting a recon - especially the force recons! - to be able to solo battleships.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:23:00 - [842] Originally by: Slade Bolgard Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer. 90% are simply "I've trained lasers and I'm mad the ship doesn't have lasers. It's not 'true' Amarr. All Amarr ships are worthless now that these six were changed.". 5% are things along the lines of "HAM missles don't have enough range to really be effective". and 5% are "HAMs don't make sense on the Damnation". 10% have actual arguments as to why the changes aren't adequate (not necessarily bad, just not far enough). The other 90% is whine. Hopefully, HAM missiles will get a slight adjustment in addition (hopefully in speed to increase the range to around 10-12k without skills so that they'll hit 20-24k with maxed skills, IMO).
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:28:00 - [843] Edited by: Slade Bolgard on 01/08/2007 16:30:11 Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: The only problem I have with that is this: If you just look at it as a TD platform, then it's essentially just an arbitrator that can cloak, and its Tech II bonus goes out the window. Which, in comparison to Falcon and Blackbird, makes it balanced perfectly. It's absurd that people are expecting a recon - especially the force recons! - to be able to solo battleships. And there's nothing absurd with the notion that a ship that takes months and weeks of training to be able to fly should be able to compete with a Raven that any dolt can fly in a week or so. Let alone the amount of drone skills required to excel in the Pilgrim. Excuse me? Ok, under that logic, let's remove the Rapier's web range bonus. It's target painter bonus is obviously good enough. Let's also axe the Arazu's warp scram range bonus. It doesn't need it's Tech II bonuses obviously. And, of course, the Rook. let's get rid of it's ECM strength bonus. They're different ships suited for different roles. The scram/damp Pilgrim is fantastic for taking out PvE fitted farmer Ravens. That's no shock. But it's absurd to completely nullify the Recon Ship skill bonus for the Pilgrim. Utterly absurd.
Mifter Hogdido Amarr The 0ri	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:29:00 - [844] Just doing a fast-reply to this topic, since I have to leave. Personally I think this nos nerf is bullstuff (said stuff only due to the word censor, you know what I'm really thinking). How the heck is my curse going to perform now? Taking away the abilities of the best ship in my race, sigh. ----------------- Its "the" by the way, not whatever the made up use of letters "teh" means.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:32:00 - [845] Not to mention the fact that there's nothing absurd about expecting a Tech II cruiser that takes months to train for to be able to compete with Tech I battleship that takes a week or two to be able to fly. Not to mention all the drone skills required to make the Pilgrim effective.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:32:00 - [846] Originally by: Count Hexar I've just spent a month training for a curse and you nerf it to death. If you wanted to just stop those domis, make nos have a stacking penatly. Dont completely cripple it. As soon as people decide on somthing they like doing/flying and skill to be good at it, you change the way the game works. This is not fair at all! Skilling up for a solopwn ship, eh?
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:34:00 - [847] Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 16:25:29 Originally by: Slade Bolgard Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer. 90% are simply "I've trained lasers and I'm mad the ship doesn't have lasers. It's not 'true' Amarr. All Amarr ships are worthless now that these six were changed.". 5% are things along the lines of "HAM missles don't have enough range to really be effective". and 4% are "HAMs don't make sense on the Damnation". and 1% are folks mistakingly thinking that these changes are the "Amarr Boost" and not simply the "Khanid Unsuckification" 9% have actual arguments as to why the changes aren't adequate (not necessarily bad, just not far enough). 1% are just... off in their own world. And the other 90% is whine. Hopefully, HAM missiles will get a slight adjustment in addition (hopefully in speed to increase the range to around 10-12k without skills so that they'll hit 20-24k with maxed skills, IMO). Different people are ****ed for different reasons. Some are angry at the ship changes, some are angry and the NOS changes. Some are angry at the whole enchilada. I'm angry about having two skill-intensive ships being rendered useless by an ill-thought out NOS nerf when several other more viable options exist.
Falun Assad Caldari New Career Move Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:38:00 - [848] agreed.., same here.
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:39:00 - [849] With neutralizers becoming more important again, can you PLEASE give them back their old visual effect? I really loved those glowing balls flying from ship to ship. I don't understand why you switched those for the nos visual. Forsch Defender of the empire
Blosphere Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:40:00 - [850] Originally by: Gypsio III Which, in comparison to Falcon and Blackbird, makes it balanced perfectly. It's absurd that people are expecting a recon - especially the force recons! - to be able to solo battleships. Pilgrie was designed to take on solo pve fitted ratting bs's, nothing absurd in that. It looses pretty fast if it encounters an actual pvp fitted bs. With these changes, I'm not sure I'd try cruisers anymore. It's pretty obivious that pilgrim was not overpowered (like curse) and doesn't need this nerf. Maybe CCP will see that and does something about it. If not, I'd like CCP to transfer my Recon V sp's to HAC. -- br, Blo

Valadeya uthanaras	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:43:00 - [851] dear CCP, I am again upset by how you handle thing you ask for review from the community, yet, you dont make a single comment, stating your point of view for ships/setups, that people take month to train. I am a amarrian pilot, and I withdrew from the laser line SIMPLY because the DEV team DID nothing to help laser ship, I dont know how many amarrian pilot, and even other race pilot stated the problem was with FITTING and CAPACITOR use. Now , I think everyone here would agree that NOSFERATU needed some kind of nerf, but your idea simply kick off: THE last amarr ship that was worth flying: curse/pilgrim THE NOSSING was in their DESIGN, you implented it in game, yet you dont make any statement about THE pilot community that spent months of training to fly it properly and nerf it because a mass of uncreative pilot was Whining. So unless you make a clear statement, while trying to fly them, even if for some odd reason, THe entire COMMUNITY now agree not a Single dev fly amarr ships, simply because, you keep making change that nerf AMARR more than any other race. For Khanid, That a complete 2 edged sword, to use missile properly, amarr pilot will now have to spent month to get the correct skill. After that, the ships look ok, far below the minmatarr and gallente lines, but, at least decent compared to what they are now on TQ Let me remind to you , OP of this tread, that you are yet to make a single statement about 2 ships that player love to fly. Unless you make one, People will go on thinking the DEV team only want to keep the new community, and make DEV blog that are a jokes, because they never answer to the concern of players.... Valadeya P.S. as an chemical engineer let me state you one thing 1. If you are to make a change on a project/design , you are better advise and get review from your clients, else you lose your job. 2. If your client dont want that change, you dont make it, ITS SIMPLE, and IT COST LESS, because the cost of losing clients is ALWAYS worst than the cost you invested in R&D in this situation, more than 30 pages of concern , should be proof enought, so state something before you lose more player.
E Vile	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:44:00 - [852] I don't see what all the crying is about with Nos. Now it just takes cap to suck cap dry. Just mix in more neutralizers. Personally I like the change. Now if you want to suck someone dry you need to risk having your own cap low. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:47:00 - [853] Originally by: E Vile I don't see what all the crying is about with Nos. Now it just takes cap to suck cap dry. Just mix in more neutralizers. Personally I like the change. Now if you want to suck someone dry you need to risk having your own cap low. It helps to know the ships before saying everything's OK. Hammar said it best: "Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death. Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly."
Asterixm Minmatar Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:57:00 - [854] Originally by: E Vile I don't see what all the crying is about with Nos. Now it just takes cap to suck cap dry. Just mix in more neutralizers. Personally I like the change. Now if you want to suck someone dry you need to risk having your own cap low. have you ever try to fit one of those ship ?? check neutra pg needs, check for nos .... and remember that Amarr got problems with crappy powergrid
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:11:00 - [855] Another perfect example of someone just whinning without any freaking clue of what he is talking about. Lets take the time to break his post appart shall we?! Originally by: Asterixm "The other 90% is whine" Amarr is the only race who is unable to npc everywhere because of laser damages ---> nothing done for it. It seems like the missile change on some ships is something done for it, now you can choose wich type of damage to do whille ratting... Originally by: Asterixm Switching laser for missiles on half of t2 amarr ship ---> What about changing raven missile slot for laser slot ? yeahh i think the raven is overpowered for npcing, do it and you will see what "whining" means because nothing whine more than a carebear army. This is totaly same things than switching laser for milles. So you say a missile shis is overpowered for PVE, you complain that Amarr in its current form is bad in PVE, but when Amarr gets missile ships you complain about it?!?!? Originally by: Asterixm Powergrid issue, still so few powergrid on amarr ship, harder difficulties to fit if we change nos for neutra .... ---> Nothing done for it. Read the hundreds of posts done on this subject, Amarr is probably the race that gets the most benefit from the new nos. Why on earth would you wan't to put a neut instead of a nos in our already cap hungry laser ships?!?!? Originally by: Asterixm Before this patch was able to fly all amarr ship fully t2 fitted, now i can only fly half of them and i'm not talking about curse/pillgrim nerf. But caldari would be happy they just won new ships. Some reasons to be angry, isn't it ? Caldary will have to train armor tankin skills and amarr ships to fly the new ships. You'll find that training the missile skills to use them takes alot less time...
DogTyred Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:15:00 - [856] "This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved." Perhaps I'm being silly here, but isn't the compromise in the fact that you can't fit a Turret or Launcher in the slot that you've got a NOS in ? I think a stacking penalty would have worked better here, CCP solution is kinda "Hammer and Nut". If ya gonna do it it'll need a cap indicator on the target ship, much like we have for shield, hull and armour or an indicator on the mod itself to report when it's no longer draining. OOH I'm being attacked by a NOS boat, I'll just turn on all my mods to make sure my cap is lower than his..... and i'll use autocannons so i can keep shooting after his launchers stop.
Asterixm Minmatar Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:23:00 - [857] Originally by: PhantomVyper It seems like the missile change on some ships is something done for it, now you can choose wich type of damage to do whille ratting... lmao farming with heavy assault missile ? need skills to be efective for missiles it would be more simple to change damage on laser ammunitions than giving month of skilling for crappy gears. Originally by: PhantomVyper So you say a missile shis is overpowered for PVE, you complain that Amarr in its current form is bad in PVE, but when Amarr gets missile ships you complain about it?!?!? --> you fit torpedoes or cruise on a BS, gime a fit if you can put it on a sacrilege. amarr just need change in laser damage to be effective in pve. Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Asterixm Powergrid issue, still so few powergrid on amarr ship, harder difficulties to fit if we change nos for neutra .... ---> Nothing done for it. Read the hundreds of posts done on this subject, Amarr is probably the race that gets the most benefit from the new nos. What about powergrid ? and no nos nerf just killed curse/pilgrim, try it on test server if you can ... Originally by: PhantomVyper Why on earth would you wan't to put a neut instead of a nos in our already cap hungry laser ships?!?!? Lmao you don't know what you are talking about ..... curse pillgrim don't fit turret or the fit is bad. Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Asterixm Before this patch was able to fly all amarr ship fully t2 fitted, now i can only fly half of them and i'm not talking about curse/pillgrim nerf. But caldari would be happy they just won new ships. Some reasons to be angry, isn't it ? Caldary will have to train armor tankin skills and amarr ships to fly the new ships. You'll find that training the missile skills to use them takes alot less time... we don't take anything to caldari we just give them something.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:28:00 - [858] Edited by: Matroshka on 01/08/2007 17:32:10 Originally by: DogTyred OOH I'm being attacked by a NOS boat, I'll just turn on all my mods to make sure my cap is lower than his..... and i'll use autocannons so i can keep shooting after his launchers stop. Good luck having lower cap than Amarr with you using autocannons. Anyways, nos is now a defensive module for the most part. So you won't really need to adjust your tactics against a ship with nos, except for the Pilgrim or Curse perhaps. edit: spelling -------------
Xonax Jyria Caldari Aku Soku Zan	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:44:00 - [859] Isn't it stupid that 10 bs nossing 1 bs and only 1 of them working. What about capitals, how come people can kill capitals? If your answer is "use neutralizers", then it means "don't fit NOS anymore". Remove NOS entirely from game if you gonna apply this stupid patch.
Eardianm Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:44:00 - [860] Originally by: Asterixm Originally by: PhantomVyper It seems like the missile change on some ships is something done for it, now you can choose wich type of damage to do whille ratting... lmao farming with heavy assault missile ? I routinely rat with HAMs in a drake. And it's quite a bit slower than the Sac will be. (no idea on Damnation relative speed, but who rats in a Fleet CBC, other than the Eos?) Mission farming, you might have a point, with the lack of MWD use + close range weapon bonus. But, if I'm reading the bonus correctly, you still get a 5% ROF bonus on the Sac, even if fitting heavy missiles. So you lose out versus a Cerb when fighting Guristas (kin damage bonus), and are about on par with a Drake regardless of rats. --------------

Eulogy Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:45:00 - [861] Originally by: Johho Bulon It sounds like all downside and no upside once again. Nos nerf? why not cap charge boost? make all cap charges smaller or allow some form of cap armouring with a new module? Or any one of the sensible suggestions already put forward? But more importantly why is it always a nerf? Why always go this retrograde way about doing things? In RL if a nation develops a powerful weapon then counters are made by opposing forces, things that gradually diminish the power of the opposing weapon system, and so you get a cylce of development. In our RL history the British empire persuaded the world to nerf its battleships in 1921, except the Japanese decided to ignore this and build titanic battleships that left everyone far behind in terms of firepower, only the coming of age of carriers redressed the balance. I understand the game balancing argument, but tbh it doesn't wash and feels totally artificial, instead of constant retrograde nerfing, why not go the evolutionary way? Produce modules that counteract overpowered game mechanics by giving power to the players to decide how to play. Because tbh as a relatively new player I look at all these great toys and instead of giving me more you are simply stealing the ones I already have and that sucks. And it isn't the nos thing in particular, I have looked back through the forums reading about nerf after nerf after nerf. A perfect balance is not only not possible it isn't desirable, let nos be king today and let nos resists or maybe nos feedbacks be king in three months. But please stop this constant levelling because to be frank it is depressing and backwards and instead of us all looking forward to the delights a new patch brings we all dread to think that our particular specialization will be next to become teh suxxor. .... Johho. /SIGNED I'm not opposed to these and other changes and will adapt, BUT I think that the above is the best way to deal with over-powerful items already released in-game. (aside from removing them completely). Evolve the game by adding not subtracting. Tweaking items - slight adjustments to CPU or PG usage and other attributes etc I can understand but fundamentally changing something as with the NOS and/or the Khanid mk2 from turrets to missiles seems flawed. You're essentially hitting the universe reset button and/or rewriting the rules of the universe to create a new timeline while everyone else remembers and is stuck in the current timeline. The cries you're hearing is the whiplash effect due to temporal displacement . I'd much rather see counters in the form of new modules like a NOS/Cap firewall or mk3 ships that reflect the evolution of technology/science in a "living world". I recommend doing the same thing here and for further changes. Eulogy "Evolve the game by adding not subtracting"
DoctorBautz	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:51:00 - [862] Mk 2 looks good and it is not that much training time for amarrians to get HAMs t2. Caldari Pilots get a new hac when they train up amarr cruisers to lvl 5. what will come in the future? amarr players will whine about having trained minmatar guns when the laser boost arrives.
Acacia Everto State War Academy	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:53:00 - [863] Wow, NOS nerf. Now we have two types of energy neutralizers, only difference is one is useless. Can you guess which?
Price Checka Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:03:00 - [864] Edited by: Price Checka on 01/08/2007 18:03:03 Just wanted to put this up for page 31, just in case CCP missed it Sac change is OK Damnation change is horrible (PLEASE PLEASE, Don't change it) Nos change should be dependent on sig radius. Thank you that is all
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:08:00 - [865] Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06 Originally by: Borasao Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand, Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school. Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water... Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and boom you got it.
Rylai	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:12:00 - [866] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06 Originally by: Borasao Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand, Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school. Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water... Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and boom you got it. hurr hurr Osmosis is, by definition, the diffusion of water If you're going to nerf nos...nerf amount or do the sig radius...don't make it useless
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:13:00 - [867] Originally by: Slade Bolgard Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 16:25:29 Originally by: Slade Bolgard Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer. 90% are simply "I've trained lasers and I'm mad the ship doesn't have lasers. It's not 'true' Amarr. All Amarr ships are worthless now that these six were changed.". 5% are things along the lines of "HAM missles don't have enough range to really be effective". and 4% are "HAMs don't make sense on the Damnation". and 1% are folks mistakingly thinking that these changes are the "Amarr Boost" and not simply the "Khanid Unsuckification" 9% have actual arguments as to why the changes aren't adequate (not necessarily bad, just not far enough). 1% are just... off in their own world. And the other 90% is whine. Hopefully, HAM missiles will get a slight adjustment in addition (hopefully in speed to increase the range to around 10-12k without skills so that they'll hit 20-24k with maxed skills, IMO). Different people are ****ed for different reasons. Some are angry at the ship changes, some are angry and the NOS changes. Some are angry at the whole enchilada. I'm angry about having two skill-intensive ships being rendered useless by an ill-thought out NOS nerf when several other more viable options exist. The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different... 80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:13:00 - [868] Originally by: Forsch With neutralizers becoming more important again, can you PLEASE give them back their old visual effect? I really loved those glowing balls flying from ship to ship. I don't understand why you switched those for the nos visual. Signed. While we're at it, can we have the Castor "lights off, crump, disintegration and expanding blast wave" effect back for exploding player ships? The effect we got with Exodus is really boring. Logoffs
Lanu Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:17:00 - [869] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Forsch With neutralizers becoming more important again, can you PLEASE give them back their old visual effect? I really loved those glowing balls flying from ship to ship. I don't understand why you switched those for the nos visual. Signed. While we're at it, can we have the Castor "lights off, crump, disintegration and expanding blast wave" effect back for exploding player ships? The effect we got with Exodus is really boring. Agreed.. changes are nice and all.. but also give the neut its effect back.. it really looked nice. __________________ I'm not obsessing. I'm just curious.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:17:00 - [870] Originally by: Asterixm "The other 90% is whine" Amarr is the only race who is unable to npc everywhere because of laser damages ---> nothing done for it. You fall into that 1%. Quote: Switching laser for missiles on half of t2 amarr ship ---> What about changing raven missile slot for laser slot ? yeahh i think the raven is overpowered for npcing, do it and you will see what "whining" means because nothing whine more than a carebear army. This is totaly same things than switching laser for milles. What has that got to do with the Khanid ships currently sucking and these changes are to make them more useful to more people? Quote: Powergrid issue, still so few powergrid on amarr ship, harder difficulties to fit if we change nos for neutra .... ---> Nothing done for it. 1% Quote: Before this patch was able to fly all amarr ship fully t2 fitted, now i can only fly half of them and i'm not talking about curse/pillgrim nerf. But caldari would be happy they just won new ships. Some reasons to be angry, isn't it ? Only for those who are stuck in a rut, IMO. I can't fly Amarr BS but I can fly everything else (Absolution and Damnation included) besides the interdictor that's a combat ship and I can't wait for the new Khanid designs to go live. I've not stuck myself in a rut or pigeonholed (handicapped) myself by declaring that I will train nothing other than lasers. That's a self imposed limitation and gets no sympathy from me, sorry.

Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:25:00 - [871] Originally by: Borasao The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different... 80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in. Well, I haven't been going through these pages with a calculator trying to do the math, but I fall into the latter category: I'm ****ed that my Pilgrim is going to become completely useless. It takes finesse to fly, and is far from a "wtfpwnmobile," but for my purposes it works as intended. The NOS nerf completely removes the point of the Pilgrim even being in the game, along with my 1.2 million skill points I sunk into the damn thing (before Recon Ships).
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:29:00 - [872] Originally by: Skool Daze Do not bring this crap to tranquility. NOS is good as it is, it just needs stacking nerf because people are equipping 4-5 of them on same ship. It should stacking nerf like all other modules like 1. 1.0 2. 0.8 3. 0.5 4. 0.2 so on. About Khanid changes, the game didn't have an armor tanking missile ship, it's good to have few. Doesn't fix the problem of BS nos being able to absolutely nuke a frigate's cap in short order. 1-2 heavy nos will still cap out a frig in 2-4 cycles, a cruiser in 4-8. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:29:00 - [873] Originally by: Rylai Originally by: Borasao Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06 Originally by: Borasao Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand, Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school. Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water... Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and boom you got it. hurr hurr Osmosis is, by definition, the diffusion of water If you're going to nerf nos...nerf amount or do the sig radius...don't make it useless Yes, by definition it is about water but the concept is very similar, as explained. An area of high free electron density is connected to an area of low free electron density... what do you think will happen? The low density will be sucked up by the high density? No... current will flow from the higher charge area to the lower charge area (positive charge terminal to ground terminal) just like it works in your iPod when you connect the battery to a circuit. Since ground is "zero", the battery will eventually even out with the other terminal and both terminals will be equal with each other in charge. See also: connecting batteries in parallel. NOS isn't useless as has been discussed over and over. It does eliminate some use of it but it isn't completely useless, particularly for laser boats that routinely are low on cap. If you're up against a target that has cap, they work exactly as they did before. If your target is also a cap sucker, then you're both in trouble or, if your target doesn't need cap but the pilot is smart enough to dump their cap, you're in trouble. You just have to think a little bit more, is all... it's no longer a solopwnmobile.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:31:00 - [874] Originally by: Slade Bolgard Originally by: Borasao The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different... 80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in. Well, I haven't been going through these pages with a calculator trying to do the math, but I fall into the latter category: I'm ****ed that my Pilgrim is going to become completely useless. It takes finesse to fly, and is far from a "wtfpwnmobile," but for my purposes it works as intended. The NOS nerf completely removes the point of the Pilgrim even being in the game, along with my 1.2 million skill points I sunk into the damn thing (before Recon Ships). Yup... Pilgrim is in a world of hurt, I agree. Faction ships need their bonuses to apply to both NOS and NEUT. Khanid changes are nice. Curse is still reasonably nice and usable (in fact, it's just like it was before really... you just have to not be afk is all).
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:34:00 - [875] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Rylai Originally by: Borasao Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06 Originally by: Borasao Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand, Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school. Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water... Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and boom you got it. hurr hurr Osmosis is, by definition, the diffusion of water If you're going to nerf nos...nerf amount or do the sig radius...don't make it useless Yes, by definition it is about water but the concept is very similar, as explained. An area of high free electron density is connected to an area of low free electron density... what do you think will happen? The low density will be sucked up by the high density? No... current will flow from the higher charge area to the lower charge area (positive charge terminal to ground terminal) just like it works in your iPod when you connect the battery to a circuit. Since ground is "zero", the battery will eventually even out with the other terminal and both terminals will be equal with each other in charge. See also: connecting batteries in parallel. NOS isn't useless as has been discussed over and over. It does eliminate some use of it but it isn't completely useless, particularly for laser boats that routinely are low on cap. If you're up against a target that has cap, they work exactly as they did before. If your target is also a cap sucker, then you're both in trouble or, if your target doesn't need cap but the pilot is smart enough to dump their cap, you're in trouble. You just have to think a little bit more, is all... it's no longer a solopwnmobile. Diffusion -------------
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:46:00 - [876] Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 18:46:59 Originally by: Matroshka Diffusion Yup. Thanks :) For an electrical model, it can be easily modeled as a two batteries connected in parallel with a diode and a load between the two positive terminals.
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:00:00 - [877] There are a few ways to fix this problem without rewriting code. Make modifications to the mods that have some logical since. Like increasing the power grid upwards to match Neuts. Add rigs or mods the increase your resistance to NOS.. Option 1: NOS Increase the power grid NOS takes to be fitted. Upwards to almost match Neuts. This change alone fixes most of the problems with NOS.. As stated NOS is overpowered and has been. It's widely used an easy to fit. So you change the ease to fit. Forcing NOS tanks to lose a large Portion of their tank to be a NOS boat. While still allowing EVE.. The player controlled environment to remain controlled by players. Also add in a MOD an rig that increases NOS resistance. Rigs add 20% Resistance... Stacking Penalty Mods add 25% Resistance... Stacking Penalty By using this option you can tell the people who cry wolf about NOS to fit a resistance rig or mod on their ship. While at the same time limiting how many NOS can be fitted on your ship. Debuffing NOS all together without modifying what it does. Yes this option still means that some people will still use NOS boats but it will cost them and they have to worry about facing ships that are NOS resistance. T2 Ships Alongside with the Shield Resists bonus T2 ships get a 3-5% per lvl to NOS & Neut Resists. Changes that could be made with a good reason an yet again nurfing NOS but with good reason an logic behind it. This also allows T2 Pilots to feel a little bit better about training hard to fly the ships. They deserve it. What do you guys feel about what I've just talked about? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:32:00 - [878] Edited by: Feng Schui on 01/08/2007 19:32:29 Originally by: Vampire Lord There are a few ways to fix this problem without rewriting code. Make modifications to the mods that have some logical since. Like increasing the power grid upwards to match Neuts. Add rigs or mods the increase your resistance to NOS.. Option 1: NOS Increase the power grid NOS takes to be fitted. Upwards to almost match Neuts. This change alone fixes most of the problems with NOS.. As stated NOS is overpowered and has been. It's widely used an easy to fit. So you change the ease to fit. Forcing NOS tanks to lose a large Portion of their tank to be a NOS boat. While still allowing EVE.. The player controlled environment to remain controlled by players. Also add in a MOD an rig that increases NOS resistance. Rigs add 20% Resistance... Stacking Penalty Mods add 25% Resistance... Stacking Penalty By using this option you can tell the people who cry wolf about NOS to fit a resistance rig or mod on their ship. While at the same time limiting how many NOS can be fitted on your ship. Debuffing NOS all together without modifying what it does. Yes this option still means that some people will still use NOS boats but it will cost them and they have to worry about facing ships that are NOS resistance. T2 Ships Alongside with the Shield Resists bonus T2 ships get a 3-5% per lvl to NOS & Neut Resists. Changes that could be made with a good reason an yet again nurfing NOS but with good reason an logic behind it. This also allows T2 Pilots to feel a little bit better about training hard to fly the ships. They deserve it. What do you guys feel about what I've just talked about? and how exactly is a pilgrim supposed to fit that? using a powergrid rig as it is now, and i'm at 30 some odd left why dont you re-read my post asking the dev's how we're supposed to fit. edit: Page 32 and no dev response yet The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
Trebor Notlimah Gallente Gunfleet Logistics Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:33:00 - [879] /not signed. The NOS nerf is wayyyyyyyy too much. Back to the drawing boards.
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:37:00 - [880] <<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>> please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna. something i dont think ccp have even thought about. if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target.. then noz are going to be less effective for me? if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place.... then noz are going to be great for me? so nerf high skills and boost low skills? or have i got this completely wrong?

Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:57:00 - [881] Originally by: Wyliee <<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>> please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna. something i dont think ccp have even thought about. if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target.. then noz are going to be less effective for me? if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place.... then noz are going to be great for me? so nerf high skills and boost low skills? or have i got this completely wrong? yea pretty much can't get on sisi though but that pretty much looks right to me wishes he didn't max cap skills and controled bursts just imagine how quick i could nuke someones cal with 7 mega pulse II on an abaddon :D
Devourment	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:06:00 - [882] I am very disappointed in these changes. NOS This makes the NOS useless. 1) NOS was used for keeping tank going. Now with the changes, a tank will not be maintained, especially in multiple ship engagements. NOS a target, hit equilibrium and tank stops, all the while all the other ships are still pounding on you. 2) NOS were also an effective anti-frigate weapon seeing as even light drones cannot keep up with the current ultra fast interceptors. A NOS or 2 could keep the ceptors at bay while not draining precious cap that is needed for tanking. Thumbs Down Khanid MKII I am all for adding another missile specific and initially was for changes until I looked into the details. These changes have made the Khanid ships one dimentional. They can ONLY be close range ships to take advantage of their bonuses. All other ships have options for close AND long range fighting, enabling the player to tailor the fitting to thier style or current situation. You cannot do that with thee changes. 1) Malediction is dead. Only close range means it HAS to be ultra fast and close before long range Caldari, Gal and Min ships. I have also noticed a trend in fleet type engagments to include 1 or 2 Smart Bomb BS's to take out drones and tacklers. Malediction does not have a way to avoid these ships and add DPS to the engagement. 2) Heretic with Missiles or Med Beams could drop a bubble and then orbit at range and add DPS. Now it is in the same boat as Malediction. I see the Heretic becoming a ultra cheap interdictor with 2 Bubble launchers and dropping all weapon systems. 3) Absolution..DOA No DPS...who would want to fly one? Total nerf of one of the more fun to fly command ships. Over all the concept of making another line of ships missile capable is a good idea. Forcing the issue to only close range is very shortsighted (no pun intended). It is almost as someone felt they needed to find a way to get players to use the underpowered Rocket and Hvy Assault weapon systems and are forcing the issue with the Khanid ships creating a Ship/weapon system that will go into mothballs.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:11:00 - [883] Originally by: Santa Anna 210 for an EWar cruiser is pretty good. Complain to a Rook or Lachesis pilot about your dps. WTS: clue. It is actually sub-average for the EW cruisers. Rook does with navy ammo 175 dps which is barely below and unlike the curses/pilgrims dps not destroyable. Lachesis does with plain out t1 ammo around 100 more dps. In both cases without damagemods. Come again? Quote: You can tell when someone is repping and when they stop if you look at their ship. The thing that stops them from getting to their peak recharge is you. Hello? You still fail to understand the problem. You sit at 30% cap. Which you NEED to keep to keep your scram and EW up. So by which magical means will you stop them from getting from lets say 20% to 30% cap again? Nos does not work. And you have no free cap for neuts. Those-tactics-do-no-work-for-1v1. What is so difficult to understand there? Quote: You can always repeat the process if he does manage to get over peak recharge. Exept you do not have the cap for it, as you apparently do not understand. Quote: No one on Sisi seems to be having any problems with the new nos on the Curse. OH RLY? In gang vs gang it works. In 1v1 however it does not - unless you fit a cap injector and your target doesn't. Otherwise you have zero-zip-zilch chance to get your target below optimal cap recharge. You can get it with good timing slightly below optimal recharge, but have then no way to stop it from recharging to optimal because you have no cap reserves left to use your neuts. Quote: Half the curse pilots on TQ have snakes. Why is that a big deal? And half of all shieldtankers use gistii boosters, right? Faction modules and implants give a significant boost. They are no the rule but the exeption. A faction fitted curse can of cource disable multiple targets. ANY factionfitted ship can. The "big deal" is that comparing a factionfitted ships performance vs a t2 fitted ships performance = fallancy. You might as well compare a t1 fitted ship vs a t2 fitted ship. Yes, thats gonna be a balanced comparsion... Quote: Get on Sisi and play around with it. You seem to be whining an awful lot without trying it. I am not whining, I am stating facts. You could use some testing, since you quite obviously haven't tested your "smart" tactics. Quote: The second ship the guy killed was soloed with a handicap (curse was already damaged and that ship's cap was already down). Funny, I never saw him writing that his ship was damaged or how much down its cap was. Ah, you are now desperate enough to starting to draw assumptions as you please? Quote: You can tell when he reps. If you have him down to charges, he'll be repping after he uses a charge. Cap injectors and medium neuts have the same cycle time. You also don't need to be anywhere near perfect (no BS has 1035 m3 cargo, and they also have ammo). Newsflash: he does not need to rep instantly after a charge. If he does he will use it in that way that way that there will be no cap left after it. Aaaand a wasted cap charge for you. Quote: A nos/neut curse or a curse with an injector would make waiting a bit of a gamble. Noooo? If you need to run your rep only once every 20 sec to negate the complete damage you get why on EARTH would you run it continuously? You would only make it easier for the curse to get your cap down? Think then post. Quote: Well obviously if you get primaried by a BS gang you get out. In a Force Recon if you get anything more than stray drone damage in a gang environment your tank will have trouble. And getting into webdistance of a target which won't die quickly will really help a pilgrim to get out, right? Also, your standard 2 LSE rapier fit can actually take quite a bit of a beating. A falcon will be out of drone control range if he has any clue. And an arazu can field nearly the same tank as a pilgrim.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:12:00 - [884] Originally by: Santa Anna Quote: And in either case, the whole point is that a pilgrim can only use half it's boni when in a gang. I already agreed with you that a nos range bonus would be more useful than a nos amount bonus. I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue with someone who agrees with you on a subject. So you say you were wrong and agree that the pilgrim is no good gangship? Quote: 2x damps = disabled. 1x damp < 1x TD for SR turret bs. A 1 TDed BS will still hit your own BS in the gang just fine. 1 TD is only a partial disabeling. Nevermind that there are still missiles, drones, nos/neuts, webs, scrams and EW. Quote: 3x multi, 2x racial > 1 TD. Less, TD is better vs turret BS. Se above. Also, in both cases you ignore that the arazu and falcon have 2-3 more slots available for EW then the pilgrim. Quote: Curse gets 2 ewar bonuses for recon. Rook is only analogue. Pilgrim keeps the less useful bonus. 3x bonused TD's + covops cloak can be useful in gangs if you fly it We are talking about the pilgrim here, not the curse. And to repeat myself: And in either case, the whole point is that a pilgrim can only use half it's boni when in a gang. Yes, a pilgrim can be "useful" as in "better than nothing" in a gang. Every ship is. A dominx can be "useful" in a sniper gang. That does not make it a good idea to use it there.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:29:00 - [885] Edited by: SencneS on 01/08/2007 20:32:19 Whoever said "Training Missile skills takes less time then Armor Tanking skills" needs to grow a brain. I took a Gallente Character, no Missile, No Armor, no Amarr or Caldari skills. All of these training times are with no learning skills and no implants Actual time would be considerably less if Implants and Learning skills where included. Time to Train EVERY SINGLE ARMOR TANKING skill you need to level 5 141d 21h. Time to Train EVERY SINGLE HAM and Missile skill to make them effective to level 5. 496d 12h. Here is the same toon direct path to Command Ship 5 Damnation. 443d 21h. Damnation from scratch with Cap skills to level 5, Damnation to level 5 and Armor to level 5 637d 19h. Here is a Damnation with Heavy Beam Lasers II's to level 5 and all it's support skills to level 5. 1248d 7h. Now here is a Damnation with HAM II to level 5 and all it's support skills to level 5. 1314d 8h. You have to be aware this is from a Gal noob character with no Missile, Laser, or Armor skills. The reason I chose Heavy Beam Lasers II is the current Damnation has Distance bonuses which is what Beam Lasers are designed for, Range rather then speed. As you can CLEARLY see, the current Damnation takes 66days less time to completely MAX out training, then with the new proposed Damnation. Also keep in mind, the HAM-II layout HAS NO LASER SKILLS at all! which means you're spending 637 days training for the Damnation and you have NO WEAPONS on any of the other Amarr ships you train alone the way! Here is skill set for the Damnation minus the weapons. Keep in mind these is CAP and Armor + Damnation itself. Although you would train more skills to be even more effective this skill set is JUST for what the Damnation is designed for. Advanced Weapon Upgrades V Amarr Cruiser V Amarr Frigate IV Battlecruisers V Command Ships V Electronics II EM Armor Compensation V Energy Management V Energy Systems Operation V Engineering III Explosive Armor Compensation V Gunnery II Hull Upgrades V Kinetic Armor Compensation V Leadership V Logistics IV Long Range Targeting V Repair Systems V Signature Analysis V Spaceship Command V Thermic Armor Compensation V Warfare Link Specialist IV Weapon Upgrades V Here is the HAM-II and Missile support skills. (1314days, 102,483,000 ISK) Guided Missile Precision V Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V Heavy Assault Missiles V Missile Bombardment V Missile Launcher Operation V Missile Projection V Rapid Launch V Standard Missiles III Target Navigation Prediction V Warhead Upgrades V Here is the HBL-II and Turret Support Skills. (1248days, 102,903,000 ISK) Gunnery V (although Gunnery II is in Missiles it's required to get Advance Weapons Upgrades) Medium Beam Laser Specialization V Medium Energy Turret V Motion Prediction V Rapid Firing V Sharpshooter V Small Beam Laser Specialization IV Small Energy Turret V Surgical Strike V Trajectory Analysis V Yes, Missiles you have to learn 1 additional skill over HBL-II skill set. Like I've said before and I'll say it again - You'll be lucky if you find anyone flying Damnations after this patch.. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Ryan Darkwolf Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:09:00 - [886] Originally by: CCP Wrangler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for. Ive quoted Jim's Siggy and Wranglers words for this small blurb of mine: Wrangler's words are exactly the opposite of what is happening to Eve-online. Ok the Khanid changes came...it was needed since I always wondered why it had armor bonuses when supposedly the Khanid used shields like caldari... But the Nos thing is too much. CCP is starting to cave into the whining and moaning of new players. I've played Eve for 3 years. I hated Nos because of the Nos domi and thought it needed nerfing, but I learned how to adapt...This nerf is taking it to such an extreme that it damages an entire faction. Lemme get this straight then....does that mean that the extra Nos ability of the Bhaalgorn, cruor and Ahimu get changed now to Neut? This used to be Eve-online: play at your own risk, while having fun and seeing the harshness of life in space. Now it has become that happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures that I was trying to avoid with WoW. ------------------- New account on EvE-Online...$19.95 100 Day GTC...$49.95 2 Month supply of German beer...$200.00 Having your computer die because of Hello Kitty online...Priceless
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:10:00 - [887] Originally by: Wyliee <<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>> please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna. something i dont think ccp have even thought about. if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target.. then noz are going to be less effective for me? if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place.... then noz are going to be great for me? so nerf high skills and boost low skills? or have i got this completely wrong? That's one way to look at it... the other is to know you're going to have more cap so burn more of it to compensate (meaning you'll be doing more stuff). For example, turn your armor rep on before you really need it to bleed off just a little more. Cycle a webber/scram on a target even if you don't need to. Enter the fight really low by onlining an offlined module. There are plenty ways to bleed off a little cap.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:10:00 - [888] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 01/08/2007 21:12:28 No reply from ccp, may be they forgot about us? I've found one positive moment - i don't care about loosing my curse, soon it will be useless string in market... nos will be to. Everybody, who says that nos can be used don't understand, that they won't be usefull enough to spend you grid/cpu i/d better fit smart o use more powerfull turrets
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:14:00 - [889] Quote: Hello? You still fail to understand the problem. You sit at 30% cap. Which you NEED to keep to keep your scram and EW up. So by which magical means will you stop them from getting from lets say 20% to 30% cap again? Nos does not work. And you have no free cap for neuts. Those-tactics-do-no-work-for-1v1. What is so difficult to understand there? If you are at 30% and your target is at 20%, it is going to NOS you. Ignoring that... why not plan ahead and charge up to 35% (instead of 30%) so you can use that neut and drop back down to 25% to 30%?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:15:00 - [890] Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 21:18:48 Quote: 3) Absolution..DOA No DPS...who would want to fly one? Total nerf of one of the more fun to fly command ships. There was no change to the Absolution at all. You might mean 'Damnation'. Quote: 1) Malediction is dead. Only close range means it HAS to be ultra fast and close before long range Caldari, Gal and Min ships. I have also noticed a trend in fleet type engagments to include 1 or 2 Smart Bomb BS's to take out drones and tacklers. Malediction does not have a way to avoid these ships and add DPS to the engagement. Must you add DPS to the engagement? I fly a Malediction now with only launchers on it as it is to save cap for other things. I don't feel the need to always even be doing DPS at all. You can tackle just fine without firing any high slot module at all. DPS on the Malediction is just icing on the cake and the Mk II adds even more icing. Quote: 2) Heretic with Missiles or Med Beams could drop a bubble and then orbit at range and add DPS. Now it is in the same boat as Malediction. I see the Heretic becoming a ultra cheap interdictor with 2 Bubble launchers and dropping all weapon systems. Heh... for the previous lines about being worried about not contributing DPS... this doesn't make sense. The Heretic should be able to do decent DPS at a decent range without using any cap at all or worrying about tracking plus the rocket launchers use small amounts of grid. It doesn't make sense not to put rocket launchers on it unless you just don't have the skills... and then that's OK too because you can still perform the main task which is drop bubbles.

Darian Hazedango Dawn of a new Empire Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:19:00 - [891] I've been thinking and thinking, and I still can't feel good about the NOS nerf. Diminishing returns, reduced effectiveness vs ships with less cap than yourself, there are other options out there that would take far less to impliment and would not be such a huge punch in the gut to players that have well settled into their preferred play stile. To the folks that say "FIT A NEUT!", yes, that is an option. It would be nice if the nerf made it so that it would be a decent alternative. But I think these changes will pound NOS so far into uselessness that neuts become the ONLY practical option, not an alternative. This isn't an ajustment, it's a complete restructuring for something I don't believe requires a complete restructuring. If a smaller ajustment still isn't enough, then you can always ajust it some more later. As for the Amarr ships, I don't really fly Amarr so I can't relate too much. But it does seem as if you're asking a lot of players to greatly change their style of play and spend a lot of paid time in game to train skills they wouldn't otherwise want to invest time into. I wouldn't be taken back so much if you kept the large changes down to a couple of ships. Hell, I'd think it'd be great to have one or two ships for each race bust out of the box a bit. (A projectile Gallente ship or a beam Minmatar anyone?) But you just made sweeping changes to an entire line of ships. I think you would do better to focus your attention to a smaller amount of ships that need it more. I'm impressed with your willingness to go great lengths to improve upon game mechanics, but lets reel it back in a little bit before clubbing it about the head, eh? You can always tweak it more later. Baby steps people. :P
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:20:00 - [892] Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 01/08/2007 21:12:28 No reply from ccp, may be they forgot about us? They usually don't reply in these... they just watch the turmoil. Quote: I've found one positive moment - i don't care about loosing my curse, soon it will be useless string in market... nos will be to. Can I have it? I'll give you 10m isk for it... since it's worthless, you'll be making out like a bandit!
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:22:00 - [893] No... the same Nos setup on the Curse after the Nos nerf does NOT work like it used to. What the hell are you guys thinking? The Curse used the Nos first to bust the cap (and drain cap injectors) of it's target so it can't deploy modules. Then the Drones come in and damage it while the Nos holds the cap down so that the target can't repair. Because Nos does not empty the cap, the Curse no longer breaks tanks. Therefore, it does not work like it did before.. The pilgrim is even worse off, and after months and months training to use these ships, we have every reason to be a little ****ed. Give Nos a special hard point AND make it Sig radius dependent, if you want to nerf it.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:23:00 - [894] I don't think that the "curses and pilgrims will have kind of a hard time taking out Battleships 1v1 after the NOS nerf" is a valid argument against the NOS nerf. If anything it is a reaffirmation that they are doing something right. The fact that a Curse still can take out most BS 1v1 even after the nerf is actually pretty humorous. Also, the argument that "I now have to train missles to fly sweet Khanid ships! That's awful!" is not a good argument against that change either. Oh well, don't train up the skills. If you could fly the Khanid ships well before the patch, then you can fly the other T2s better anyways. Now the Khanid are finally different enough to be more effective.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:24:00 - [895] Quote: Like I've said before and I'll say it again - You'll be lucky if you find anyone flying Damnations after this patch.. Can I has ur Damnation? It's not like it can't give gang bonuses anymore.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:26:00 - [896] Originally by: RossP Zoyka I don't think that the "curses and pilgrims will have kind of a hard time taking out Battleships 1v1 after the NOS nerf" is a valid argument against the NOS nerf. If anything it is a reaffirmation that they are doing something right. The fact that a Curse still can take out most BS 1v1 even after the nerf is actually pretty humorous. Also, the argument that "I now have to train missles to fly sweet Khanid ships! That's awful!" is not a good argument against that change either. Oh well, don't train up the skills. If you could fly the Khanid ships well before the patch, then you can fly the other T2s better anyways. Now the Khanid are finally different enough to be more effective. Well said... those who can fly Sacrileges well now can, even now, fly Zealots well (and it's even a better ship). Same for all the rest. If you don't want to train missiles, don't. I, for one, welcome the new Khanid ships. I think they'll be fun to pilot.
SleepyOSU	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:27:00 - [897] Originally by: E Vile I don't see what all the crying is about with Nos. Now it just takes cap to suck cap dry. Just mix in more neutralizers. Personally I like the change. Now if you want to suck someone dry you need to risk having your own cap low. M8, don't screw all the armor tankers just cauz u fly a passive myrmidon thats not effected. They way they want to do it makes nos a defensive weapon the only way cap drain could be used offensively now will be if ur in a bigger ship, and this hurts high class ships also. However if they do this change it will be passive tanked neut boats that will come from it. This also makes it crazy hard to kill a supper cap.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:31:00 - [898] Wanna hear a good argument against the NOS nerf? I can fit a 4 million ISK Arbitrator with 3 rigs, and it'll be nearly as effective as an 80 million ISK Pilgrim with 2 rigs.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:36:00 - [899] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death. Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly. Yeah I think its the fact that this change breaks ships which are supposed to rely on Nos feeding tanks in 1v1. The Curse can do as well as before if it has a couple of targets to work on, same with the Pilgrim, but the Pilgrim really is a 1v1 ship. Fact is that to break a tank you have to kill your own which is fine for non specialist ships, but specialists will always die in this situation, especially if the enemy is firing with no cap [now most ships with Khanid changes]. ============================================ NOS change based on %regen
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:41:00 - [900] Originally by: Feng Schui Edited by: Feng Schui on 01/08/2007 19:32:29 Originally by: Vampire Lord There are a few ways to fix this problem without rewriting code. Make modifications to the mods that have some logical since. Like increasing the power grid upwards to match Neuts. Add rigs or mods the increase your resistance to NOS.. Option 1: NOS Increase the power grid NOS takes to be fitted. Upwards to almost match Neuts. This change alone fixes most of the problems with NOS.. As stated NOS is overpowered and has been. It's widely used an easy to fit. So you change the ease to fit. Forcing NOS tanks to lose a large Portion of their tank to be a NOS boat. While still allowing EVE.. The player controlled environment to remain controlled by players. Also add in a MOD an rig that increases NOS resistance. Rigs add 20% Resistance... Stacking Penalty Mods add 25% Resistance... Stacking Penalty By using this option you can tell the people who cry wolf about NOS to fit a resistance rig or mod on their ship. While at the same time limiting how many NOS can be fitted on your ship. Debuffing NOS all together without modifying what it does. Yes this option still means that some people will still use NOS boats but it will cost them and they have to worry about facing ships that are NOS resistance. T2 Ships Alongside with the Shield Resists bonus T2 ships get a 3-5% per lvl to NOS & Neut Resists. Changes that could be made with a good reason an yet again nurfing NOS but with good reason an logic behind it. This also allows T2 Pilots to feel a little bit better about training hard to fly the ships. They deserve it. What do you guys feel about what I've just talked about? and how exactly is a pilgrim supposed to fit that? using a powergrid rig as it is now, and i'm at 30 some odd left why dont you re-read my post asking the dev's how we're supposed to fit. edit: Page 32 and no dev response yet The fix to that would be: IÆm almost sure youÆre using a nano set-up with a MWD. Also note that ships weren't made so that you can fit everything on them. Rigs allow ships to go that extra limit to try to get that perfect set-up. Another easy fix which makes since is make NOS require Cap to be activated. This would be the simplest way to nerf it without thinking too much an coming up with some unrealistic reason or dumb rule that doesn't equate. You say it increases your ships recharge rate too much... so just add a activation of 1/2 the amount it drains. T2 would obviously have a better ratio. What you propose fixes one thing and breaks another. Maybe IÆm missing something but you could do something like start a thread can ask the peoples option an then work from there. At least for major things such as changing NOS which affects a large portion of EVE in almost all races. Over all to me the NOS changes are a Amarr buff. Being that Amarr pilots complain the most about being NOS'd. All these changes are pro Amarr but they do cripple what is now considered the best Amarr ships (pilgrim/curses). An the best recon for that matter. So they payment for better Amarr ships is the lost of solopwning in the curse. CCP are you even reading this??? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])

Darius Amir	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:42:00 - [901] "A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as cheap supplementary weapon system." Right from their own description of rockets.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:01:00 - [902] Heavy Assault Missiles flight time is still too low, increase it from 3 to 6 seconds and then we can have a proper look at the Damnation and Sacrilege.
XiticiX Gallente Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:02:00 - [903] I can't read this whole thread (it's become too long) but has there been any Dev response to why they just didn't use sig radius to nerf NOS a bit? ~~~ This is my sig. Do you like it? ~~~
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:11:00 - [904] Originally by: XiticiX I can't read this whole thread (it's become too long) but has there been any Dev response to why they just didn't use sig radius to nerf NOS a bit? Devs arent smart enough to even consider it. Instead they just make idiotic changes that only forum whiners asked for and not even in this way like they are going to implent it. Ship lovers click here
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:35:00 - [905] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 01/08/2007 20:32:19 Whoever said "Training Missile skills takes less time then Armor Tanking skills" needs to grow a brain. Time to Train EVERY SINGLE ARMOR TANKING skill you need to level 5 141d 21h. Time to Train EVERY SINGLE HAM and Missile skill to make them effective to level 5. 496d 12h. Here is the HAM-II and Missile support skills. (1314days, 102,483,000 ISK) Guided Missile Precision V Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V Heavy Assault Missiles V Missile Bombardment V Missile Launcher Operation V Missile Projection V Rapid Launch V Standard Missiles III Target Navigation Prediction V Warhead Upgrades V You have never flown a missile ship, have you? You don't need ridiculous amounts of SP to be effective with missiles. Why do you think mission farmers like them so much? First, ditch Guided Missile Precision, it doesn't affect rockets or HAMs. Second, take all those V's and drop them to IVs, except Missile Launcher Operation and Heavy Assault Missiles. For supports at IV and T2 HAMs, we're looking at 1.9 million SP, which will give you quite effective missiles. It'll take 148 Days with 6 perception, 6 willpower. Or 42 with a very realistic 21 perception, 21 willpower. Armor Tank to non-pimp but respectable levels will take less time, admittedly. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Si Raven Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:37:00 - [906] I haven't read all of this topic (who's bright idea was it for 1 thread for both NOS and Khanid? Would it really have been a bad idea for 2 threads?) I don't fly Amarr and I hardly use Nos, but... someone seems to be very stupid, and I don't think it's me I've seen this concept mentioned in a few posts and it doesn't make any sense to me: Quote: NOS was used for keeping tank going. Now with the changes, a tank will not be maintained, especially in multiple ship engagements. NOS a target, hit equilibrium and tank stops, all the while all the other ships are still pounding on you. If the Nos stops, then you have cap, so your tank doesn't stop. (If the target runs out of cap, you're in the same situation as before the nerf) If the Nos starts, you might have no cap and that's when you have to worry about your tank. In a "multiple ship engagements", just stick your nos on the passive shield tank missile spamming monster, not the blasterthon! Save the neut for them. As for the Khanid, sounds good. I haven't even learnt the HAM skill yet as the Caldari are very sluggish with poor cap. I don't see the point trying to shoehorn HAM and a MWD into them. Hopefully the Khanid will make proper close range ships. I'm very tempted to learn to fly Amarr ships. As a RP idea, would it not make sense to change the developers of the anathema and the purifier as well? Leave the anathema's bonus as they are and change the purifier's Small Energy Weapon capacitor bonus to the rocket bonus.
Namo Iluvatar Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:43:00 - [907] Originally by: CCP Fendahl ...This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved. I totally disagree. When you switch out a high slot item that deals damage in exchange for an item that takes up just as much cpu/power than the weapon you replaced (and sometimes more)... then that now is your new weapon! You don't exactly get something for nothing... you devote a tremendous amount of ships resources to fitting that module. Just like a blaster boat is focused around fitting the basters to do the upmost amount of damage... ships can be focused around stealing/neutralizing another ships cap. And in doing so, change their offensive tactics. I personally don't think of NOS/neuts as an accessory module. I think of them as a weapon that is not spicificaly assigned a turret or launcher hard point. All this as it may be. My commenting on this topic will likely prove fruitless and CCP will do what it feels it must to ensure "fare and ballanced game play." Indeed, capital pilots are no doubt breathing a sigh of relief over the matter... But I would caution them to not get too comfortable/confident over the matter. People always find a way around adversity and new (and probably even better) ways to take down capital ships will immerge. * All skill is in vain when an angel spits in the flintlock of your musket. *
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:01:00 - [908] Edited by: vile56 on 01/08/2007 23:03:58 just ****ing in the wind i guess but since i have no use for assault ships 5 could you bring that back to 1 please bring inty to 1 for me also please and add it to something usefull please. oh and recon 5n ya thats wasted delete that to ... i have been on sisi and hate it -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:06:00 - [909] Originally by: Namo Iluvatar Originally by: CCP Fendahl ...This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved. All this as it may be. My commenting on this topic will likely prove fruitless and CCP will do what it feels it must to ensure "fare and balanced game play." Indeed, capital pilots are no doubt breathing a sigh of relief over the matter... But I would caution them to not get too comfortable/confident over the matter. People always find a way around adversity and new (and probably even better) ways to take down capital ships will immerge. You and many others have raised the same point to CCP.. but it seems like the voice of reason is calling out into the wind.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:15:00 - [910] Edited by: Aramendel on 01/08/2007 23:15:54 Originally by: Borasao If you are at 30% and your target is at 20%, it is going to NOS you. And that would do you what good? In fact this is just another way how you will run out of cap yourself in a pilgrim/curse. Of cource, the curse can at least outrange enemy nos. The pilgrim has no chance at all vs a BC or BS which has a nos or neut. Quote: Ignoring that... why not plan ahead and charge up to 35% (instead of 30%) so you can use that neut and drop back down to 25% to 30%? For the curse, possible, but it will take rather long since you have very little free caprecharge left after EW & scram. And, of cource, the effect of this will be neglectible. Target will wait a bit till it is at 30% cap again and continue to permatank. Also, unless it can only tank your 230 dps and one a single dps more will repair again the damage done while it was below 30% cap. You'll hammer against a stonewall which you can dent briefly every 30-60 seconds only to see it repair itself again and again. A huginn or lachesis will be more likely to kill a single target than a curse. For the pilgrim not really an option since it needs to tank some of its target dps since it cannot disable it completely at 12k. It cannot even sustain rep + scram + EW at peak, it is more likely to run out of cap than to charge some of it up.

Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:21:00 - [911] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 01/08/2007 23:21:55 'Voice of reason' hah!... I think not. Nosferatu's are one of the final weapons systems that hasn't been re-balanced (smartbombs are the last), missiles have been re-visited, turrets have been revisited, drones have been re-visited (twice), nosferatu's time has come and this IS the right way of going about it. The posts against the change here remind one much of those when turret tracking got changed (actually they we're much more against at the time), or when drones got changed ("ZOMG!! this is the end of Battleships!!!"), or when missiles got the added explosion radius and explosion velocity ("Wwwagghhh!! this is the end of the Caldari race!!!")... ...they we're wrong, as most of you are now. It fixes issues of Large nos vs. small ships, fixes issues of cookie-cutter Dominix setups, fixes remaining nano-nonsense, puts a certain pair of recon ships back into the supporting role (though granted the pilgrim may need looking at), and makes that last high slot choice more than simply the no-brainer of "add nos nub..." All in all, jobs a good 'un. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Callista Jael	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:27:00 - [912] Khanid changes: I favor rockets / heavy assault so I can't really complain. Though, setups are predictable. A few players anticipate range problems w/ these ships. T2 ammo to adapt to changing circumstances? NOS changes: Engineering wars. I foresee the necessity of developing effective piloting skills by broadening the current boring use of the NOS module. I still plan for my Pilgrim / Curse.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:39:00 - [913] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 01/08/2007 23:21:55 'Voice of reason' hah!... I think not. Nosferatu's are one of the final weapons systems that hasn't been re-balanced (smartbombs are the last), missiles have been re-visited, turrets have been revisited, drones have been re-visited (twice), nosferatu's time has come and this IS the right way of going about it. The posts against the change here remind one much of those when turret tracking got changed (actually they we're much more against at the time), or when drones got changed ("ZOMG!! this is the end of Battleships!!!"), or when missiles got the added explosion radius and explosion velocity ("Wwwagghhh!! this is the end of the Caldari race!!!")... ...they we're wrong, as most of you are now. It fixes issues of Large nos vs. small ships, fixes issues of cookie-cutter Dominix setups, fixes remaining nano-nonsense, puts a certain pair of recon ships back into the supporting role (though granted the pilgrim may need looking at), and makes that last high slot choice more than simply the no-brainer of "add nos nub..." All in all, jobs a good 'un. Hey look pal, there are other (better) options than the ones CCP proposed, the options which you obviously like the most. Also, every ship has a supporting role. Your point makes no sense.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.01 23:55:00 - [914] Edited by: Bad Liz on 01/08/2007 23:55:37 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 01/08/2007 23:21:55 'Voice of reason' hah!... I think not. Nosferatu's are one of the final weapons systems that hasn't been re-balanced (smartbombs are the last), missiles have been re-visited, turrets have been revisited, drones have been re-visited (twice), nosferatu's time has come and this IS the right way of going about it. The posts against the change here remind one much of those when turret tracking got changed (actually they we're much more against at the time), or when drones got changed ("ZOMG!! this is the end of Battleships!!!"), or when missiles got the added explosion radius and explosion velocity ("Wwwagghhh!! this is the end of the Caldari race!!!")... ...they we're wrong, as most of you are now. It fixes issues of Large nos vs. small ships, fixes issues of cookie-cutter Dominix setups, fixes remaining nano-nonsense, puts a certain pair of recon ships back into the supporting role (though granted the pilgrim may need looking at), and makes that last high slot choice more than simply the no-brainer of "add nos nub..." All in all, jobs a good 'un. Are you serious? Fairly sure you didn't read even 1 page of this thread. The NOS change breaks a number of ships it does not change their role. It is not like the nano and ecm nerfs, but rather a serious change in gameplay that is beyond moronic. Now welcome to the battle of 50 ships NOSing 1 with zero effect. Pilgrim, Curse, Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu, and many other setups that were NOS viable for ships whos cap doesn't last are now dead. The curse and pilgrim cannot be fit with nos, neut and cap boosters period...it does not work at all. Its like taking something, smashing it with a hammer and saying dont worry guys this thing will still work it just has a different role now - as scrap metal in the trash. Of all the great ideas to change nos this is by far the most poorly thought through. The Khanid ships are simply not going to be bought, period. Changing them into caldari ships without the range and HAMs (which nobody uses since they are a half brained idea from CCP that doesn't work to begin with) will simply mean that nobody will fly them. Watch the damnation and the sacrilidge stop being made period.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:06:00 - [915] Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 00:06:32 I'm going to save everyone lots of time posting here now since I'm sure probably everything possible has already been said. If you think the NOS change is the worst idea ever, or simply the Khanid ships are simply now made a joke...which I think they are simply state so. Would like to slowly start converting this into a petition since I doubt CCP is going to read all of it anyway.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:11:00 - [916] Worst nerf ever. At the same time it makes the raven an nber powerful nos boat when it runs out of cap it completely destroyes all nos ships. After this patch the pilgrim/curse/domi in some instances myrm and alot of setups on other ships completely useless. To me this looks like CCP wants to limit the ways you can set up your ship. Might as well just give us a fully setup ship every time we buy one and then let the amount of sp we got determine if we win or lose. I mean, damps/nos is a way for the noobs to be able to combat the 15m+ sp in gunnery chars. Not anymore though! Yay for no variation. Yarr
Nomme Mugen Shipyards	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:16:00 - [917] After looking over the changes in Sisi for the Malediction and the Vengeance I would like to add my feedback. Interceptors. The reduced max locking range across all ceptors,whilst forcing them into the under 26km range of heavy nos,now means that dogfights are hampered badly. With ceptors reaching rapid speeds now all you have during dogfights is constant locking relocking as ships get out of range so quickly totally kills the immersion and fun of maneuvering and playing with range. Malediction. clearly it is now a close range rocket tackler and nothing more,able to deal damage across all rocket types(good) but no buff for missiles,and 24 km max range(this is with max gang bonus),poor at being a med to long range tackler. I am concerned as from what I can see of CCP thinking each race has a short range tackler and a med to long range tackler in their respective slots. The change effectively retires the malediction from this role,and although with the rocket buff she does a great job of webb and spam,its predictable and the sader with its recent MedPulse tracking buff does this better,and tanks better too. Vengeance I like the 4 rocket high slot changeout,again predictable ,which is a shame as I always thought Khanid to be the Maverick out of the box oddball race. With nice mids and no weap cap use and cap recharge bonus,lowered req for Rocket Launchers,and free grid for MWD,I predict this will be a great frig for piracy,like the AC Punisher was. So to add my pennys worth I like the missile changes,hate the range nerf on ceptors and bemoan the loss of versatility of the "Oddball" Khanid. Thats it.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:28:00 - [918] Originally by: Namo Iluvatar Originally by: CCP Fendahl ...This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved. I totally disagree. When you switch out a high slot item that deals damage in exchange for an item that takes up just as much cpu/power than the weapon you replaced (and sometimes more)... then that now is your new weapon! You don't exactly get something for nothing... you devote a tremendous amount of ships resources to fitting that module. Just like a blaster boat is focused around fitting the basters to do the upmost amount of damage... ships can be focused around stealing/neutralizing another ships cap. And in doing so, change their offensive tactics. I personally don't think of NOS/neuts as an accessory module. I think of them as a weapon that is not spicificaly assigned a turret or launcher hard point. All this as it may be. My commenting on this topic will likely prove fruitless and CCP will do what it feels it must to ensure "fare and ballanced game play." Indeed, capital pilots are no doubt breathing a sigh of relief over the matter... But I would caution them to not get too comfortable/confident over the matter. People always find a way around adversity and new (and probably even better) ways to take down capital ships will immerge. Well id sure love if my missiles and turrets agve me some Shield/armor when they took it away from my enemies, not to say that some wpns uses cap to be fired also and still do dmg to your enbemie and nothing else. Love to see wpn systems that does 2 things for me besides the nos, how about missiles unaligning ships so the cant warp couse of the explosins? Heck on a serious note... buffing other wpns to do 2 effects would be cooler and balance them with the NOS wpn system... hehe. Neuts are in line with other wpns, takes resources to fit and cap to Fire. Nos takes resources to fit, gives you more cap and still dmges your enemies Cap. Fact: aLL wpn systems takes resources to fit, all but NOS gives you 1 advantage and some even uses Cap as a second resource drain.... while NOS gives you 2 advantages (both very good) and 1 drain(nothing special here, standard resource drain). "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:42:00 - [919] Edited by: General StarScream on 02/08/2007 00:45:45 Ye this is very bad, sucks makes all the cap saving skills crap for those whom like to use nos, bad bad bad bad And what about dampers???? sensor dampers now thats something that need a nerf, a nos you can counter with your own or cap inj, but a sensor damping small ship, your ****, from 100km range to 10km range if your hit with 3 of em, and thats with a sensor booster but noooooooooo you neeed to fix ** that works fine and everyonce ok with i think you should start making votes befor you nerf stuff and see what your players want.!!
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:43:00 - [920] Most people use 1 nos which equalizes things and the drawback is that you sacrifice a slot and fitting space for it. NOS is not a weapon like other weapons and it shouldn't be because many ships and setups depend on it in order to function. Please stop making completely ridiculous arguments trying to compare NOS to missiles or somesuch. Its in the ENGINEERING section not turrets and bays, maybe that why it is different. Its a system intended to support capacitors and help break tanks, without it drone ships are going to be completely dead since drones alone can't break tanks. You guys might notice that most EW creates 2 negative penalties on the opponent at minimal cost, maybe CCP will kill all that too and we can throw out TDs and Damps in the future when they swing the nerfing bat again.

Brainpd	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:44:00 - [921] ffs if it's such and unfair module: CHANGE the drain rate or amount then. instead of comming up with weird complex formulas for it. Don't think that's good enough ? SWITCH around the range for large and small NOS. /me thinks real problem is there are TOO MUCH WHINERS.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 00:55:00 - [922] Originally by: Bad Liz Edited by: Bad Liz on 01/08/2007 23:55:37 Are you serious? Fairly sure you didn't read even 1 page of this thread. The NOS change breaks a number of ships it does not change their role. It is not like the nano and ecm nerfs, but rather a serious change in gameplay that is beyond moronic. Now welcome to the battle of 50 ships NOSing 1 with zero effect. Pilgrim, Curse, Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu, and many other setups that were NOS viable for ships whos cap doesn't last are now dead. The curse and pilgrim cannot be fit with nos, neut and cap boosters period...it does not work at all. Its like taking something, smashing it with a hammer and saying dont worry guys this thing will still work it just has a different role now - as scrap metal in the trash. Of all the great ideas to change nos this is by far the most poorly thought through. The Khanid ships are simply not going to be bought, period. Changing them into caldari ships without the range and HAMs (which nobody uses since they are a half brained idea from CCP that doesn't work to begin with) will simply mean that nobody will fly them. Watch the damnation and the sacrilidge stop being made period. Wow a anti focus fire ninjad into the change... focusing NOS is bad better spread em out, good thing. I dunno about all khanid ships, but the sacrilage will be popular, every Caldari pilot in this forums are drooling over the missile boat the will be usable in PvP. And to the amarrs whining about training a Gunnery system and a missile system... WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF CALDARI "Q#ñ&"#ñ!! Half of our ship layout are gunner systems, but wait thats not all they are gimped with turret slots couse there are some sucky missile slots on them, Caldarians would KILL to see our secondary wpn system boats be made for that system and not some "jack of no trade" slowboats. Its a Fact that you Laser boats are still there and Boosted with the nerf to NOS, sure Cap draining ships will still be there but not to the same extent and power. Now your seoncadry wpn boats comes and WTF your HAC version pwns the Caldari Missile boats in PvP usability by far... and some of you got the guts to whine about it? NOS changes = CAP is more safe in space, good to be amarr, aint it? Khanid ships = some went from shuttles to Sucky, some are now total pwn. I dont know about the DOMINATION thou, tend to agree that a fleet command ship should stay at some range atleast.... perhaps give this a Heavy missile EM dmg bonus? instead of a all Close missile dmg bonus? Recon = Curse got nerfed, it was needed as the NOSdomi. I can however see some problems with the pilgrims... however these boats still got the Cov-ops and TDs so the groupuse of these ships are still VERY viable.. all gangs needs covops and scouts/probers. Some other things this does to amarr on the top of my head: Amarr boats uses Lasers, wich are the most powergrid heavy wpn system, witht the bigger ones on par or above the powergrid usage of a neutraliser. This means the amarr boats will be the ones that can actually make CAP fighting fittings possible, atleast easier then other ships, since a neutraliser is somewhat like a Laser in fittings. Now to help them even more in the Neutralizer war, Amarr ships have naturally good Capacitors and ships like the Apocalypse wich has outstanding Max Cap make these ships wonderful Neutralizer boats. The countermeasrue against a Neutralizer will be the new NOS, so a Neutralizer boat wont be a Join-me-or-Die-ship like certain Dominixes and others. The patch might stoep on some toes, but i see LOTS of potential with this change. I agree the Pilgrom might be in need of some love, but what about ships like our Cerberus? Many Caldarians time invested in Caldari HAC are now wasted (lol eagle?) are now wasted (i guess some like the eagle and the range of a cerberus still thou). Most of use will now go for a sacrilage to replace our Cerberus in PvP.... i could rant on... "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:01:00 - [923] Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 01:01:55 Originally by: Brainpd ffs if it's such and unfair module: CHANGE the drain rate or amount then. instead of comming up with weird complex formulas for it. Don't think that's good enough ? SWITCH around the range for large and small NOS. /me thinks real problem is there are TOO MUCH WHINERS. Or they could make the NOS more of a Defensive module, better fitted for ships that has spare CPU but less powergrid, and a natural countermeasure to its cousin the neutralizer. It still has alot of flavour, is balanced to other systems and gives neutralizers some place to shine. Alot of pros using this change... i see the downsides to, Pilgrims/Curses/Bloodraiderships take a beating with this change (the curse deserved it). Hopefully this will be looked into. Khanid Sacrilage made my caldari Cerberus alot less atractive, but the change has alot of pros in it to and i can take that hoping the cerberus will in someway be improved. /Caldari auto-whine ahead: Give CALDARI its AGILITY and Speed back, atleast to missile boats pretty please. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

CCP Fendahl	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:02:00 - [924] I can't believe that I finally finished reading close to 1000 posts Nosferatu Changes There still seem to be some confusion about the exact mechanics, so I'll try to clarify. Suppose you are in a ship with a capacitor capacity of 2000en and have 600en left (30%). Further suppose that you activate a Nosferatu on a ship with 350en out of 1000en left (35%). The Nosferatu can then transfer up to 5% of the targeted ships capacitor capacity (the difference between the charge percentages), i.e. up to 50en (5% of 1000en). If you're using a Heavy Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 120en, then the actual transfer amount is capped at the maximum 50en, leaving you with 650en (32.5%) and your opponent with 300en (30%). If you're using a Medium Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 36en, then the transfer amount is not limited since 36en is below the maximum allowed transfer amount. This means that you end up with 636en (31.8%) and your opponent ends up with 350en - 36en = 314en (31.4%). A second Medium Nosferatu II would then not transfer anything since you now have a higher charge level than your opponent, but it would remain active (and not auto-deactivate). This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Effect on Capital Ships The new nosferatu mechanics should not affect the tactic of using nosferatus and neutralizers to tackle capital ships. Capital ships can only jump with they have more than 70% cap left, so it is just a matter of mixing in a few neutralizers and maintaining your own cap below 70%. As 70% is significantly beyond the peak recharge this shouldn't be an issue. Migration to Neutralizers With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before. However then fitting requirements on neutralizers are higher than for nosferatus, so we are considering to lower the fitting requirements a bit (this might happen and it might now happen). Constructive feedback is useful as always. Another issue is that neutralizers are generally used in combinations with nosferatus to reclaim some most of the energy spent on neutralizers. After the change, cap warfare will become harder since you now have to expend energy yourself in order to drain an opponent. Notice that ships with a bonus to energy drain amount have a significant advantage when using neutralizers since they can neutralize a lot more energy in the target ship for the energy spent. The duration on the Neutralizers is also an important aspect. Currently the duration of neutralizers is twice that of nosferatus, which means that they hit harder but less often. There are trade offs either way whether we keep them hard hitting as now (kill cap fast) or move them closer to the frequency of nosferatus (kick 'em while they're down). Ships Specializing in Capacitor Warfare Ships that specialize in capacitor warfare will naturally still be supported with the change of mechanics. The blood raider ships (Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu and Cruor) will get their bonuses to Nosferatus transfer amount extended to Neutralizers as part of the general balancing changes. As noted in the dev blog, more to follow on this once the aftershock of the dev blog settles.


CCP Fendahl	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:02:00 - [925] As noted above, the ships still retain a significant advantage since they can neutralize cap more efficiently. Ships such as the curse can mitigate the Nosferatu equilibrium by spreading out the nosferatus and concentrate the neutralizers on a single target. If the fitting requirements on the neutralizers don't get adjusted in general, then we will most likely boost the fitting on these ships a bit since they have to be able to support neutralizers in order to function properly. Graphical Effect For Neutralizers One request brought up was that the neutralizer graphical effect be swapped back to the (really) old one with shiny glowing balls . Being able to easily tell the difference between nosferatus and neutralizers would certainly be very useful, so I'll ask around and see what we can do. Energy Emission Systems One interesting concern brought up was that it might be a disadvantage to train the energy emission systems skill since it reduces the energy need of neutralizers. The issue is that if you want to completely drain a single enemy target with a mix of nosferatus and neutralizers and keeping it down with nosferatus, then you would need to expend all of your own energy. The energy saved would then slow you down, in a sense. While I can see how this might seem problematic, I must admit that I don't see any issue with it. In my opinion it would be better to put the energy saved to good use. One could either run shield boosters/armor reps and regain some hp, relay the energy to a friend with an energy transfer array or use it to kill the capacitor of the target even faster with an additional neutralizer. Khanid mk 2 Let me start by saying that the Khanid mk 2 changes address the Khanid ships and are not intended as the solution(tm) to Amarr problems, but rather to boost a group of under-performing ships. Close Range Missiles Only This is a point brought up quite frequently: why give a bonus to only close range missiles and "force" the Khanid ships to fit for close range only? The bonus should be seen in the light of the Caldari bonus to kinetic missiles which similarly "restricts" the Caldari ships to kinetic damage. All-round bonuses to damage for Khanid ships would be unacceptable if the Caldari ships only get kinetic damage bonuses, so the alternative (as pointed out by some) would be a racial damage bonus instead, i.e. an EM damage bonus. This would also cause the Khanid ships to step too much on the toes of the Caldari in my opinion since fitting restrictions alone are not sufficient to prevent an overlap. With the bonus to close range missiles, the Khanid ships can still use long range missiles fairly decently, but they make some sacrifices to do so and are still outclassed by their Caldari counter parts. Turret slots for Khanid Ships A fair complaint brought up is that many Amarr pilots have not trained any missile skills and would suddenly find themselves unable to fit weapons to ships they have used for a long time. The main reason for restricting the turret hardpoints with the revision was to emphasize the focus on missiles, but I don't see anything wrong with letting them have more turret hardpoints if that would make the transition easier, so it is certainly something we are considering to change. Most of the revised khanid ships have a few turret hard points anyway and could max out their high slots with weapons if they wanted to.


CCP Fendahl	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:03:00 - [926] One problem, however, is the Sacrilege. With the planned changes the sacrilege has 6 high slots, 5 missile hardpoints and no turret hardpoints. If the Sacrilege was given any turret hardpoints then it would be able to fit weapons in all its high slots and boost its damage to unacceptable levels. The only way to restrict the damage would then be to move a high slot to medium/low, which would take away the auxiliary high slot and make the ship overpowered by adding a med/low slot to an already very powerful ship. In short I don't see how the Sacrilege could be given turret hardpoints without changing its performance as a missile platform. Damnation The most criticised ship is probably the Damnation. Both for the loss of turret hardpoints and for its shortcomings as a fleet command ships with close range weapons. Like most of the other fleet (not field) commands does not support fleet operations well (the exception being the Vulture which can function as long range anti support). We plan to revise the fleet commands to better support fleet operations, but unfortunately we do not have the resources to do so for Revelations 2.2. In the mean time the Damnation is still able to support fleets with warfare links and a heavy tank, just as before the Khanid mk 2 changes and we are also looking into the fitting issues that people have. More suggestions are welcome, of course. Malediction One point brought up for the Malediction is the EM damage bonus. Without its stats and bonuses the Malediction is already a very able heavy tackler, but an additional bonus was needed without making it overpowered. An additional bonus to rockets would make it overpowered with rockets and pigeonhole it too much as a rocket ship, so a racial damage bonus seemed reasonable (in my opinion the 10% kinetic damage bonus on the Crow is problemative since the gap between kietic and other damage types becomes too large). Another point is the range. As the Crusader lacks flexibility for tackling with its 2 medium slots, the Malediction is the primarly Amarr interceptor tackler, but it is gimped by the low targeting range. Increasing the targeting range to normal levels might not be too problematic as the reduced CPU already keeps the Malediction sufficiently in check with standard missiles compared to the Crow, so we are certainly considering an increase. The armor bonus is not spectacular in general, but give the Malediction a bit more oomph and make it extremely deadly for other interecptors when going in close. T1 Khanid ships We do not currently have any plans for T1 Khanid ships, though we are working on Khanid faction modules (but not faction ships) for the loyalty point store, including HAMs. Weak Heavy Assault Missiles Two complaints about the HAMs (relevant since Khanid rely on HAMs) is that they are too slow to catch up with high speed targets and that the range is too short when compared with Heavy Missiles relative to Rockets/Standard Missiles and Torpedos/Cruise Missiles. We plan to revise the close range missiles, but unfortunately not for Revelations 2.2. Rocket Launcher Description Quote: A tiny launcher that can carry a very limited supply of rockets. Not really intended as a primary weapon but rather as a cheap supplementary weapon system. I'll see what I can do about that one That's it for now More feedback would be appreciated as allways (positive or negative). If you oppose the changes then that's fine of course, but please try to be constructive and specify precisely what sucks and why (and even better: what might be done differently). Back to work

RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:06:00 - [927] Originally by: Namo Iluvatar Originally by: CCP Fendahl ...This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved. I totally disagree. When you switch out a high slot item that deals damage in exchange for an item that takes up just as much cpu/power than the weapon you replaced (and sometimes more)... then that now is your new weapon! You don't exactly get something for nothing... Ya, its now called a neut dude...... Guns don't rep your ship when you're shooting people.
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:07:00 - [928] I don't see, why the change would've negative effects. You've just to be a bit more clever, instead of fitting at least 2 NOS. NOS will change into a defensive module, which helps you to level out the playingfield between ships with heavy cap-usage and those, which don't use so much cap. Also: NOS is not menr to break an enemies tank. Thats what Neutralizers are for. For the Curse/Pilgrim, well, they'll need to rethink their setups: Cap-Booster + Neutralizers anyone? We'll see much more interesting fights with the changes to NOS Solo Battleships will get the shaft, not beeing able to kill Interceptors by NOSsing them dry in a second. And thats how it should be. An Interceptor can't kill a Battleship 1 vs 1, but now, the Interceptor can fulfill it's role, and the Battleships need to have support, as it's intended. Khanid MK II: I love it .
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:12:00 - [929] Originally by: CCP Fendahl I can't believe that I finally finished reading close to 1000 posts Nosferatu Changes There still seem to be some confusion about the exact mechanics, so I'll try to clarify. Suppose you are in a ship with a capacitor capacity of 2000en and have 600en left (30%). Further suppose that you activate a Nosferatu on a ship with 350en out of 1000en left (35%). The Nosferatu can then transfer up to 5% of the targeted ships capacitor capacity (the difference between the charge percentages), i.e. up to 50en (5% of 1000en). If you're using a Heavy Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 120en, then the actual transfer amount is capped at the maximum 50en, leaving you with 650en (32.5%) and your opponent with 300en (30%). If you're using a Medium Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 36en, then the transfer amount is not limited since 36en is below the maximum allowed transfer amount. This means that you end up with 636en (31.8%) and your opponent ends up with 350en - 36en = 314en (31.4%). A second Medium Nosferatu II would then not transfer anything since you now have a higher charge level than your opponent, but it would remain active (and not auto-deactivate). This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Migration to Neutralizers With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before. However then fitting requirements on neutralizers are higher than for nosferatus, so we are considering to lower the fitting requirements a bit (this might happen and it might now happen). Constructive feedback is useful as always. Ships Specializing in Capacitor Warfare Ships that specialize in capacitor warfare will naturally still be supported with the change of mechanics. The blood raider ships (Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu and Cruor) will get their bonuses to Nosferatus transfer amount extended to Neutralizers as part of the general balancing changes. As noted in the dev blog, more to follow on this once the aftershock of the dev blog settles. Pretty much the points i was trying to get out in my posts above the DEV post. Also as it is now Ships with bigger Capacitors and greater POWERGRID can use Neutralizers more effective then others, this is a ninja boost to amarr. Why not make them happy and let em have that advantage? NOS has less CPU reqs so if you deside to lessen powergrid of neuts, you should lessen cpu or powergrid on NOS to IMO. To give ships an easier time to fit NOS to counter NEUTs. Also your fixing the bloodraider ships, Nice CCP /clap! Perhaps check into pilgrim to? Caldari feedback a.k.a Caldari auto-whine: Im abit jealous that amarrs secondary wpnsystem-boats are this effective compared to Caldarian gunships (Rokh excluded). In all fairness drop a missile launcher from the sacri or add +1 turret to many caldari gunboats (especially Eagle). Amarrians have a point with the Domination being a closerange fleet command ship also, if you wish it to be then it shall be. Otherwise give them EM dmg bonus to all Heavy missiles or something ;) would give me yet another reason for amarr ship training. Armor tanked/armor bonus CS/missile boat = much PVP missile <3 "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Loocoh Seven.	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:19:00 - [930] I haven¦t read all of the replies, but I feel the nos change is too much nerfing it. Perhaps with some tweaking it could be more acceptable: Make nos remove cap of your target down to i.e. 50% of your current cap. So, if you have 100% cap, you can nos the target down to 50% cap. If you have 40 % cap left, you can only nos his down to 20%. If you have 20% cap left, could nos him down to 10% So, you could weaken his cap, but not killing it without killing your cap too. Still, nos would let you to tank longer than him. This would also mean: * BS still would need to fit neuts to counter tacklerss. However, if you meet an equally fitted BS, except it has 1 nos instead of neut, you (theoretically) lose. * Smaller ships could still use nos from larger ships to feed it¦s tank. Lesser nerf to Curse/Pilgrim (nos target down to 50%, then activate neuts).

Veng3ance Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:23:00 - [931] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Damnation The most criticised ship is probably the Damnation. Both for the loss of turret hardpoints and for its shortcomings as a fleet command ships with close range weapons. Like most of the other fleet (not field) commands does not support fleet operations well (the exception being the Vulture which can function as long range anti support). We plan to revise the fleet commands to better support fleet operations, but unfortunately we do not have the resources to do so for Revelations 2.2. In the mean time the Damnation is still able to support fleets with warfare links and a heavy tank, just as before the Khanid mk 2 changes and we are also looking into the fitting issues that people have. More suggestions are welcome, of course. So the most criticised ship change out of the entire thread will not be touched? Because you are supposedly changing the other fleet command ships in the future. Thats a poor excuse, and is just setting the Damnation up to be a terrible ship for months to come. I don't see why you can't just give back the original 4 turret hardpoints to make the change less harsh. The 5% () to optimal range was never a good bonus to begin with, so you don't even have to switch the bonuses around. Im sorry, but the Damnation is NOT a close range brawler no matter how much you want it to be.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:26:00 - [932] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Weak Heavy Assault Missiles Two complaints about the HAMs (relevant since Khanid rely on HAMs) is that they are too slow to catch up with high speed targets and that the range is too short when compared with Heavy Missiles relative to Rockets/Standard Missiles and Torpedos/Cruise Missiles. We plan to revise the close range missiles, but unfortunately not for Revelations 2.2. As a Caldarian missile user, id like to see a shortrange missile version with really high DPS (Say longer range then blasters and abit less DPS) As it is today missile users have a choise between longrange mediocre DPS or shortrange mediocre DPS+1. I know the new khanid missile users are gonna hate me saying this, but keep the short range on them, increase the DPS + add more speed to missile boats (bot long range and close range needs speed to either get close with high dmg or kite with mediocre dmg) On the sacrilage subject of giving it turretslot, to balance it with a Eagle. Id say give the amarrians some turretslots and only 4 missile slots and then see what they say, im still loving missile boats so i would like 5 missiles thank you ;) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:26:00 - [933] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Revelations 2.2. Thanks for the information, just one question: when (or in which timeframe) do you plan to release rev 2.2?
PathetiQ Gallente The Rat Pack	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:30:00 - [934] Great post of: CCP Fendahl i still belive this is the worst nerf ever (nos). They just lose their meaning, and its unlogic that a HEAVY nos cant drain out a frig.
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:33:00 - [935] Originally by: CCP Fendahl One could either run shield boosters/armor reps and regain some hp, relay the energy to a friend with an energy transfer array or use it to kill the capacitor of the target even faster with an additional neutralizer. so how long before you nerf transfer arrays? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:47:00 - [936] Originally by: Fager Originally by: vile56 Originally by: CCP Fendahl One could either run shield boosters/armor reps and regain some hp, relay the energy to a friend with an energy transfer array or use it to kill the capacitor of the target even faster with an additional neutralizer. so how long before you nerf transfer arrays? it would still mean the NOS user would have to kill its CAP (by shooting, tanking or whatevah) to kill its targets CAP as stated in the dev blog (if it wasnt im just swambling couse im tired..) right but since im always fitting my ships with energy transfer arrays i figured a nerf is comming soon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
SleepyOSU	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:48:00 - [937] I GOT AN IDEA! Lets get this back on track.... *Here is the plan!* I don't have time to execute this plan so I will try to organize it. I need 3 people willing to do some work. One to make 5 polls. One for NOS Nerf. One for MK2 changes. Over the last 33 pages there have been many good ideas, alternatives, and important considerations that need to be weighted when CCP makes their decision. The Goal- To create a detailed organized and systematic review of thoughts here. Goals: Polls will provide CCP with quantifiable data that will allow them to act on. The overviews will: Summarize info for new readers Allow others to build on the organized overview both in missing info, and details that are missing. Keep the conversation productive. Provide valuable information for CCP so they can make educated decisions, so we donÆt end up on the wrong end of a stupid idea. Poll Setup Q1 ôDo you feel that NOS could use SOME (Not specific to what CCP proposed) sort of Nerf?ö A1Yes A2Yes STRONGLY A3No A4No STRONGLY Q2 ôAs described in the dev Blog, do you think the patch should go forward as planned (NOS Specific)?ö A1Yes A2Yes STRONGLY A3No A4No STRONGLY Q3 ôOverall thoughts to proposed NOS Changes?ö A1Good A2Agreeable but not delighted. A3Agreeable but only if NOS Drone ships, get a bonus so they are not over nerfed A4Needs much refinement. (Different or additional mechanics.) A5Needs much refinement. (Different or additional mechanics.) + NOS drone ship bonuses Q4 ôDo you feel that MK2 ships could use modification of SOME Sort. (Not specific to what CCP proposed) that offers more concentrated direction?ö A1Yes A2Yes STRONGLY A3No A4No STRONGLY Q5 ôAs described in the dev Blog, do you think the patch should go forward as planned (MK2 Specific)?ö A1Yes A2Yes STRONGLY A3No A4No STRONGLY A5Yes but ONLY after further refinement. NOS (General) Reason for proposed changes Proposed Changes: (General Pattern for MK2 Proposal) Pros from Changes: Listà General Problems Proposed Changes Cause: Listà Disparate Racial Impact: Listà Alternatives Solutions: Listà Important Considerations (General): Listà Alternative/ Addition 1 Pros: Cons: Notes / Considerations Alternative/ Addition 2 Pros: Cons: Notes / Considerations Etcà MK 2 Outline (General) Reason for proposed changes Proposed Changes: (General Pattern for MK2 Proposal) Pros from Changes: Listà General Problems Proposed Changes Cause: Listà Disparate Racial Impact: Listà Alternatives Solutions: Listà Important Considerations (General): Listà Ship Specific Problems: List I hope all here will respect the time and work I put into this for the sake of the game, and that some will step up to the plate, to help finish the project I organized, and that it builds to a useful document for CCP. It will need updated as the discussions refine issues/ideas outlined and organized here. Links to interactive pools should be posted with the ôquestionö above each link.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:51:00 - [938] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Migration to Neutralizers With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before. However then fitting requirements on neutralizers are higher than for nosferatus, so we are considering to lower the fitting requirements a bit (this might happen and it might now happen). Constructive feedback is useful as always. Another issue is that neutralizers are generally used in combinations with nosferatus to reclaim some most of the energy spent on neutralizers. After the change, cap warfare will become harder since you now have to expend energy yourself in order to drain an opponent. Notice that ships with a bonus to energy drain amount have a significant advantage when using neutralizers since they can neutralize a lot more energy in the target ship for the energy spent. The duration on the Neutralizers is also an important aspect. Currently the duration of neutralizers is twice that of nosferatus, which means that they hit harder but less often. There are trade offs either way whether we keep them hard hitting as now (kill cap fast) or move them closer to the frequency of nosferatus (kick 'em while they're down). Ships Specializing in Capacitor Warfare Ships that specialize in capacitor warfare will naturally still be supported with the change of mechanics. The blood raider ships (Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu and Cruor) will get their bonuses to Nosferatus transfer amount extended to Neutralizers as part of the general balancing changes. As noted in the dev blog, more to follow on this once the aftershock of the dev blog settles. 1.) Neutralizers must be lowered in fitting requirements to be swapped out for NOS on cruisers, there is simply no other way to make many current existing setups work. The two systems should be equivalent alternatives. 2.) Neut duration should be lowered to NOS in order to make cap warfare ships still function similarly. A mixed nos/neut setup on a curse or pilgrim will kill the ship now as one heavy neut thrown on it by a battleship will instantly decimate its cap before it has time compensate. 3.) You must explain how cap warfare ships will be supported. As far as every pilgrim pilot is concerned that ship is now dead. It CANNOT function on a nos/neut setup and without the ability to quickly drain another person's cap its drone damage is ineffective. I would still like my refund on the ship and time spent training amarr recon. 4.) Devs must understand that this now makes it so that cap warfare ships kill their cap at the same time as their opponents. Being Amarr that means death, especially for the recons. The neut lowers your cap to just above theirs and the NOS rule prevents you from ever gaining it back meaning your cap dies at the same rate as theirs period. Cruisers cannot in any way shape or form pay with cap for running a NEUT. 5.) Thanks for mentioning faction ships as the only cap warfare ships, Amarr recon pilots really appreciate the concern. TO ALL DEVS, please post your new proposed Pilgrim or Curse fittings that may somehow, in some way shape or form work.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:55:00 - [939] Originally by: Karandor Well I think it is very clear what CCP wanted from the NOS change: 1. NOS is now for supporting your own cap and not killing cap. 2. Neuts are now for killing cap. Now neuts and NOS have different roles. If you are worried about interceptor tacklers fit a neut. If you have a dual rep tank on a mega fit a NOS. I personally love seeing all the bandwagoners saying "OMG I JUST TRAINED FOR MY SOLOPWNMOBILE AND NOW I MAY HAVE TO THINK TO USE IT!!!!1111!!111eleven" being screwed. If you didn't see that BSs being easily solo'd in a recon ship was broken I want some of what you're having because it must be one hell of a drug. I have no sympathy for whines of having to train missiles. Be minmatar where you need missiles, guns, drones, shield tanking and armour tanking in order to use the different ships to their potential and THEN ***** about having a lot of training to do. You are obviously not a recon pilot, nor do you fly amarr recons at all and have zero clue as to what we are talking about. Try to take on a BS in a curse or a pilgrim and see exactly how hard it is, how many skills it takes, how much isk in fittings and implants to do it right and not get owned yourself. Now these ships are worthless. Please post on the Khanid issue where your opinion may have validity. Im getting frustrated with people coming on here to talk about something they don't know, don't use and likely never will. All the best.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 01:59:00 - [940] a little more of the caldari auto-whine: I think i speak for most of our caldarian friends when i say exchange all our 5% kinetic dmg to a 5% dmg bonus to Light/heavy missiles instead! This will put em in line with the khanid ships. Be gone foul 5% kinetic dmg! The greatest advantage of missiles is choosing dmg-type. Perhaps Amarr pilots should realise the advantage of a fast closecombat armortanked missile ship that can use all dmg types at the cost of no range fitting. Well its ot like you cant fit them to long range Missiles either, just have to sacrifice some bonuses (for those who wants to PvE with range abilities, for PvP LongRange+missies is a joke) /end auto-whine "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:08:00 - [941] Originally by: CCP Fendahl ..We plan to revise the fleet commands to better support fleet operations, but unfortunately we do not have the resources to do so for Revelations 2.2. In the mean time the Damnation is still able to support fleets with warfare links and a heavy tank, just as before the Khanid mk 2 changes and we are also looking into the fitting issues that people have. More suggestions are welcome, of course.... This will probably earn me a good deal of flames, but look at me not caring. Anyway, what about this: Lets face it, no amount of boosts to their weapons will make anyone who is using them for the ganglinks make put them on the front lines in fleet battles. The relatively minor dps they bring is not worth having the risk of loosing ganglink bonuses to the 50-200 people fleet they are supporting. So scrap the concept of them being weapon plattforms alltogether. The fleet commands, mind you. Instead give them real support bonuses, like the logistic ships whose skill is required to fly the fleet commands in the first place. To avoid a conflict with logistics they could only get a bonus for one module and also no range bonus for it. For example, t1 bonuses could be remote armor rep amount or fitting and remote armor rep cap use, t2 bonuses could be the racial ganglink bonuses and ganglink cap use or cap recharge.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:11:00 - [942] Originally by: Bad Liz Originally by: Karandor Well I think it is very clear what CCP wanted from the NOS change: 1. NOS is now for supporting your own cap and not killing cap. 2. Neuts are now for killing cap. Now neuts and NOS have different roles. If you are worried about interceptor tacklers fit a neut. If you have a dual rep tank on a mega fit a NOS. I personally love seeing all the bandwagoners saying "OMG I JUST TRAINED FOR MY SOLOPWNMOBILE AND NOW I MAY HAVE TO THINK TO USE IT!!!!1111!!111eleven" being screwed. If you didn't see that BSs being easily solo'd in a recon ship was broken I want some of what you're having because it must be one hell of a drug. I have no sympathy for whines of having to train missiles. Be minmatar where you need missiles, guns, drones, shield tanking and armour tanking in order to use the different ships to their potential and THEN ***** about having a lot of training to do. You are obviously not a recon pilot, nor do you fly amarr recons at all and have zero clue as to what we are talking about. Try to take on a BS in a curse or a pilgrim and see exactly how hard it is, how many skills it takes, how much isk in fittings and implants to do it right and not get owned yourself. Now these ships are worthless. Please post on the Khanid issue where your opinion may have validity. Im getting frustrated with people coming on here to talk about something they don't know, don't use and likely never will. All the best. On another note, id like to se a other races Recons solo Battleships ;(. But i believe that the Curse/Pilgrim needs to be looked and observed, The NOS nerf might have hit them to hard (or to little i dunno). But fact is ppl on the test server says the curse works very well still. Perhaps not in everysingel occasion or even the 1on1. But lets face it no other recon can face a PvP BS 1on1 on most occasions either. No or little word about the pilgrim thou. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:13:00 - [943] Originally by: CCP Fendahl As noted above, the ships still retain a significant advantage since they can neutralize cap more efficiently. Ships such as the curse can mitigate the Nosferatu equilibrium by spreading out the nosferatus and concentrate the neutralizers on a single target. If the fitting requirements on the neutralizers don't get adjusted in general, then we will most likely boost the fitting on these ships a bit since they have to be able to support neutralizers in order to function properly. Energy Emission Systems One interesting concern brought up was that it might be a disadvantage to train the energy emission systems skill since it reduces the energy need of neutralizers. The issue is that if you want to completely drain a single enemy target with a mix of nosferatus and neutralizers and keeping it down with nosferatus, then you would need to expend all of your own energy. The energy saved would then slow you down, in a sense. While I can see how this might seem problematic, I must admit that I don't see any issue with it. In my opinion it would be better to put the energy saved to good use. One could either run shield boosters/armor reps and regain some hp, relay the energy to a friend with an energy transfer array or use it to kill the capacitor of the target even faster with an additional neutralizer. 1.) I appreciate recognition of the obvious fitting problem for these ships. I agree with your proposed solution there. 2.) I do not think you have truly read the posts made here by experienced curse/pilgrim pilots who have clearly explained how such setups currently do not work as tested on singularity. Please test them yourself before posting on this issue again and do not theorize about it. 3.) This clearly kills the curse as a solo ship since you have no idea about what it should do if there is only one target. I see a lot wrong with a cap warfare based ship killing its own capacitor in order to conduct cap warfare - how do you not see the logical problem here. This has now converted passive tank ships into excellent cap warfare ships and cap warfare ships into a waste of money since they cannot win the cap war... 4.) The pilgrim is obviously dead since you are refusing to even mention it here, or how its going to work because its clear that it will be unable to run a NOS/NEUT setup and stay alive.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:32:00 - [944] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Damnation The most criticised ship is probably the Damnation. Both for the loss of turret hardpoints and for its shortcomings as a fleet command ships with close range weapons. Like most of the other fleet (not field) commands does not support fleet operations well (the exception being the Vulture which can function as long range anti support). We plan to revise the fleet commands to better support fleet operations, but unfortunately we do not have the resources to do so for Revelations 2.2. In the mean time the Damnation is still able to support fleets with warfare links and a heavy tank, just as before the Khanid mk 2 changes and we are also looking into the fitting issues that people have. More suggestions are welcome, of course. As a Damnation flier here is my suggestion. In Fleet ops a Fleet Command ship is never close in the battle, 300km off or orbiting a carrier etc. What I've always found odd about the Fleet Command ship is Logistics if a requirement for their training but they have no Logistics bonuses apart from three warfare links. The BC Skill bonuses should be weapon driven, 10% damage etc. In all honesty they should have limited shots but they need to do comparable damage if all slots had weapons. Have it 4 Missile and 4 turret slots and 3 Aux slots. But Boost the damage bonus on the Battlecuriser skill. The Command ship skill needs to be support related. These Fleet Command ships are support ships, not PVP, PVE ships. Cut from Damnation and pretty much every "Fleet" Command ship:- Fleet Command ships represent the ultimate in warfare link efficiency; while not packing the punch of their field command counterpart, the boosts they give their comrades in combat make them indispensable assets to any well-rounded fleet. Battlecruiser Ship bonuses - 10% decrease in rate of fire for weapons (Missile and/or turret) and 5% bonus to all (races specific bonus) per level. Command Ship bonuses should be exactly that - 10% Less cap usage for Warfare Link Modules, and 7.5% bonus to effectiveness of warfare link modules per level. Note "Warfare link modules" as in all warfare link mods not just specific ones. Let the field command ships have specific warfare link bonuses, the fleet command ships should be able to run any link. Leave the option 4 Missiles or 4 Lasers but no Fleet Command ship should have any more then 4 Weapons. These are NOT PVP, tackler, brawler, or PVE ships. They are support ships, they support the fleet while being able to take a LOT of damage but not deal a lot. Anyone that thinks otherwise shouldn't be flying them in the first place. If the Damnation goes though with the current plan, it's best option would be to fit 5 Heavy Assault Launchers, load up defender missiles and just tank it up in fleet ops. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:38:00 - [945] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Originally by: CCP Fendahl As noted above, the ships still retain a significant advantage since they can neutralize cap more efficiently. Ships such as the curse can mitigate the Nosferatu equilibrium by spreading out the nosferatus and concentrate the neutralizers on a single target. If the fitting requirements on the neutralizers don't get adjusted in general, then we will most likely boost the fitting on these ships a bit since they have to be able to support neutralizers in order to function properly. Energy Emission Systems One interesting concern brought up was that it might be a disadvantage to train the energy emission systems skill since it reduces the energy need of neutralizers. The issue is that if you want to completely drain a single enemy target with a mix of nosferatus and neutralizers and keeping it down with nosferatus, then you would need to expend all of your own energy. The energy saved would then slow you down, in a sense. While I can see how this might seem problematic, I must admit that I don't see any issue with it. In my opinion it would be better to put the energy saved to good use. One could either run shield boosters/armor reps and regain some hp, relay the energy to a friend with an energy transfer array or use it to kill the capacitor of the target even faster with an additional neutralizer. 1.) I appreciate recognition of the obvious fitting problem for these ships. I agree with your proposed solution there. 2.) I do not think you have truly read the posts made here by experienced curse/pilgrim pilots who have clearly explained how such setups currently do not work as tested on singularity. Please test them yourself before posting on this issue again and do not theorize about it. 3.) This clearly kills the curse as a solo ship since you have no idea about what it should do if there is only one target. I see a lot wrong with a cap warfare based ship killing its own capacitor in order to conduct cap warfare - how do you not see the logical problem here. This has now converted passive tank ships into excellent cap warfare ships and cap warfare ships into a waste of money since they cannot win the cap war... 4.) The pilgrim is obviously dead since you are refusing to even mention it here, or how its going to work because its clear that it will be unable to run a NOS/NEUT setup and stay alive. 2) actually ppl have tried the curse on the test server and reports that its still good. 3a) a curse versus a BS will have problem draining its cap without taking heavy if not all of its own cap. As stated before no other recon can in most cases kill a BS solo either. Put a curse up vs smaller ships and it Can use its very powerful neutralizers to kill enemies Cap with Cap of its own to spare (skills + bonuses should help make it cap efficient) and then use noncap wpns such as missiles and drones to kill it. Other recons can often kill other smaller ships very effectively 1on1 to. Also still ppl on test server has killed BSes with this ship... 3b) Passive shield tanks requires loads of powergrid, and shield boats lack of powergrid makes this option not very sought for, add to the fact that passive shield tanks have a general bad Cap recharge from shield power relays... its not very good at its use of neutralizers since it cant kill lots of cap with what it got unless it stacks up on NOS+Neuts(wich i doubt is possible, atleast not on drakes) wich will give it closeto 0 DPS.... 4) Pilgrims use as a Cap killer has been severly reduced, its use as a TD/prober/Cov OP ship is still 100% functional. Generally i agree with you here thou.. needs observation. Its not as bad as you make it sounds. And they are looking into the Bloodraider ships. So im pretty confident that if they feel the curse / pilgrim got nerfed to bad theyll see it. As it stands on paper and comments form testers it seem there usability has been lowered but only to the level of most other recons. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:39:00 - [946] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Most logical solution that fits this criteria and also satisfies the hordes of angry people here, representing a compromise and not a "CCP is implementing it so don't bother arguing": Use the cap ratios on the two ships do set a basic diminishing formula whereby if the opponents cap is below yours then the NOS only drains at 50% or 25% en. Separates NOS from NEUT, prevents ships from being insta drained unless its by a huge fleet in which case it makes sense, having large capacitor is an advantage, keeps NOS effective for leeching cap. This will rebalance some NOS issues and solve the DEV's needs (since I don't think the community's needs are being served by this nerf)
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:39:00 - [947] It's good to finally get an official reply but I think most people understood what CCP was trying to do from the start with NOS and yes the nerf addresses those issues nicely. That said the nerf is still very clumsy unless without some serious changes to Nos, Neuts, some ships' bonuses, and likely the nerf itself. I still think the stacking penalties or limited slots are a better solution but if this is implemented lets hope the requirements for both Neuts and Nos are dropped since they are both far less useful now. Also the idea of allowing a ship to be Nosed slightly below their cap is a good one. If I'm leeching do I really care if my host is running a bit low?
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:41:00 - [948] Yes NOS has to be nerfed, yes there are a lot of good ideas and changes for Kali 2.2 but please don't nerf NOS this way. I fly gallente and this change (CCP like) is the death for >> Vexor, Myrmidon, EOS, Dominix Domi is a problem I agree. But today at least I have a chance to withstand any Battleship with a Myrmidon or EOS... tomorrow this is no longer possible. Why? Because I can't use Neutralizer on a smaller ship like an EOS to drain a BS, it's just suicide, no one will do that. In the past, this chance for a smaller ship was great. And for all the Vaga and Ceptor Pilots, at least you had the chance to escape through your speed, that's the advantage you skilled and that's the advantage you should use against NOS-Domis. If you get catched, it's your problem and you probably made a mistake. I like the idea here for example to nerf NOS... but please CCP, your idea is just wrong. Far better idea !!! br speed
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:41:00 - [949] Fendahl can read faster than we can whine. Wow. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:47:00 - [950] Originally by: Trent Nichols It's good to finally get an official reply but I think most people understood what CCP was trying to do from the start with NOS and yes the nerf addresses those issues nicely. That said the nerf is still very clumsy unless without some serious changes to Nos, Neuts, some ships' bonuses, and likely the nerf itself. I still think the stacking penalties or limited slots are a better solution but if this is implemented lets hope the requirements for both Neuts and Nos are dropped since they are both far less useful now. Also the idea of allowing a ship to be Nosed slightly below their cap is a good one. If I'm leeching do I really care if my host is running a bit low? In that official note they said they were looking into Neut/Nos fittings, and changing many of the CAPwarboats bonuses . Also the fittings are pretty good, its not that the usefulness is becomming so low that it needs lower fittings, its that the NOS where to good before with only the fitting requirements as a drawback. Also as you say Neuts are less useful now and should have fitting reqs lower... well nothing has change to the neutralizer mod.. its as effective as it is now. If the fitting reqs are to harsh for neuts, then please CCP give ships supposed to use em higher powergrid, and let highpowergrid/high cap ship be able to use em (amarr ships mainly) they are still worth their fittings in gold i say ;) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:49:00 - [951] Originally by: speedcat Yes NOS has to be nerfed, yes there are a lot of good ideas and changes for Kali 2.2 but please don't nerf NOS this way. I fly gallente and this change (CCP like) is the death for >> Vexor, Myrmidon, EOS, Dominix Domi is a problem I agree. But today at least I have a chance to withstand any Battleship with a Myrmidon or EOS... tomorrow this is no longer possible. Why? Because I can't use Neutralizer on a smaller ship like an EOS to drain a BS, it's just suicide, no one will do that. In the past, this chance for a smaller ship was great. And for all the Vaga and Ceptor Pilots, at least you had the chance to escape through your speed, that's the advantage you skilled and that's the advantage you should use against NOS-Domis. If you get catched, it's your problem and you probably made a mistake. I like the idea here for example to nerf NOS... but please CCP, your idea is just wrong. Far better idea !!! br speed I agree with this link posted http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566794&page=1 Far better idea on that thread. Please read it and sign if you agree.
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:52:00 - [952] Edited by: zero2espect on 02/08/2007 02:52:37 I am getting more and more angry about this, the nos changes. amarr have a USELESS utility slot designed to house a NOS to keep feeding our cap unstable need to armour repair setups. we cannot run (either speed or quick to align and warp) and for the most part we don't have the med-slots to EWAR. our only ability to play PVP is to get close (AB or MWD), tackle (SCRAMER) and web (WEBBER). Note that the khanid changes only enhance this. we then need to be able to tank for as long as it takes for our easily identifiable and counterable damage types to have an effect on the target. On every single ship apart from a very selected few, this is all of our MED SLOTS GONE. So the continued reference to just fit a cap booster is rubbish. Unlike every other race we cannot even fit a full range of guns/missiles to our highslots to even "make a decision to sacrifice dps for a neut/nos". fitting a neut to an amarr ship completely makes the funding of the way that we play, and even ccp's writings suggest we play, unviable. we need the cap to shoot, rep and even keep the target in a position where it can be engaged. if this goes ahead we need CCP to either completely remove the utility slot and replace it for a turret/missile hardpoint or move it to a medium slot. this way amarr (like every other race) can make a choice between nos/neut for DPS, fund power hungry reps with cap boosters or fit cap chargers. some common sense must prevail. //sometimes less is more...zero
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 02:54:00 - [953] Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 02:58:30 Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 02:57:54 Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 02:57:17 Originally by: speedcat this change (CCP like) is the death for >> Vexor, Myrmidon, EOS, Dominix ...and everyone lived happily ever after in the world of eve. I seriously doubt theyll be useless. They wont however have a MAD tank while killing its enemies tank anymore. I already see ppl shrugging of the NOSdomi for a NEUdomi saying well its gonna tank less but still be deadly. However a few NOSes can counter a NEUTwarship with these changes... So i doubt the neutralizers will be the new NOSwin, just a powerful wpntype. also the solution posted here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566794&page=1#8 Does not solve the problem of a NOS giving you cap and killing your enemies cap at the same time with little drawback. Its still a Win-Win activate and go get coffee module. It would still be able to kill enemies cap 100%, not solving some of the points the DEVs listed recently. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:04:00 - [954] Originally by: zero2espect Edited by: zero2espect on 02/08/2007 02:52:37 I am getting more and more angry about this, the nos changes. amarr have a USELESS utility slot designed to house a NOS to keep feeding our cap unstable need to armour repair setups. we cannot run (either speed or quick to align and warp) and for the most part we don't have the med-slots to EWAR. our only ability to play PVP is to get close (AB or MWD), tackle (SCRAMER) and web (WEBBER). Note that the khanid changes only enhance this. we then need to be able to tank for as long as it takes for our easily identifiable and counterable damage types to have an effect on the target. On every single ship apart from a very selected few, this is all of our MED SLOTS GONE. So the continued reference to just fit a cap booster is rubbish. Unlike every other race we cannot even fit a full range of guns/missiles to our highslots to even "make a decision to sacrifice dps for a neut/nos". fitting a neut to an amarr ship completely makes the funding of the way that we play, and even ccp's writings suggest we play, unviable. we need the cap to shoot, rep and even keep the target in a position where it can be engaged. if this goes ahead we need CCP to either completely remove the utility slot and replace it for a turret/missile hardpoint or move it to a medium slot. this way amarr (like every other race) can make a choice between nos/neut for DPS, fund power hungry reps with cap boosters or fit cap chargers. some common sense must prevail. Common sense turn on! With all that cap wasting you will in almost everycase have less cap then your enemies. NOSing them will work like today, and with only one nos its gonna take ages until hes down to your % of cap lvl. Please read some of my post up abit on the forums explaining how amarrians can actually benefit from the neutralizer fittings. Generally the ships wasting lots of cap fast can use NOS to keep them stable, but not to kill your enemies Cap anymore. Its also a effective countermeassure against being neutralized. Note also the fact that most other races have utility slots left over after filling racks of main wpn system. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:09:00 - [955] also the solution posted here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566794&page=1#8 Does not solve the problem of a NOS giving you cap and killing your enemies cap at the same time with little drawback. Its still a Win-Win activate and go get coffee module. It would still be able to kill enemies cap 100%, not solving some of the points the DEVs listed recently. No but it makes it less powerful and solves the actual problems that NOS created without breaking the module and the ships that rely on it.
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:09:00 - [956] Originally by: Fager Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 02:58:30 Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 02:57:54 Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 02:57:17 Originally by: speedcat this change (CCP like) is the death for >> Vexor, Myrmidon, EOS, Dominix ...and everyone lived happily ever after in the world of eve. I seriously doubt theyll be useless. They wont however have a MAD tank while killing its enemies tank anymore. I already see ppl shrugging of the NOSdomi for a NEUdomi saying well its gonna tank less but still be deadly. However a few NOSes can counter a NEUTwarship with these changes... So i doubt the neutralizers will be the new NOSwin, just a powerful wpntype. also the solution posted here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566794&page=1#8 Does not solve the problem of a NOS giving you cap and killing your enemies cap at the same time with little drawback. Its still a Win-Win activate and go get coffee module. It would still be able to kill enemies cap 100%, not solving some of the points the DEVs listed recently. As mentioned by many many people, the inherent sacrifice in using NOS is giving up a high slot and for us Amarr it was easier since CCP doesnt allow us to put anything there in the first place (many of us would rather have a gun point). Choosing to use a NOS is a fitting sacrifice either way especially if you fly any of the powergrid lacking ships. Without the mid slots of a gallente ship Amarr ships will now simply not be able to function in the same manner and as usual we are losing choices in how we fit or what we do.
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:31:00 - [957] Originally by: CCP Fendahl One problem, however, is the Sacrilege. With the planned changes the sacrilege has 6 high slots, 5 missile hardpoints and no turret hardpoints. If the Sacrilege was given any turret hardpoints then it would be able to fit weapons in all its high slots and boost its damage to unacceptable levels. The only way to restrict the damage would then be to move a high slot to medium/low, which would take away the auxiliary high slot and make the ship overpowered by adding a med/low slot to an already very powerful ship. In short I don't see how the Sacrilege could be given turret hardpoints without changing its performance as a missile platform. Take away the missile damage bonus and put in another tank bonus, or even a nos/neut bonus if you want to get crazy. Give them enough fitting space to choose heavy launchers (or a mix) instead of HAMs only. OR Replace the damage bonus with a SIGNIFICANT missile speed bonus. This allows them to use HAMs at longer range and against faster targets. Either of the above lets you put back in turret options, but doesn't result in the uber-DPS you are afraid of. I also think they deserve more than 15 m3 of drone bay so they have another range option for when HAMs can't reach -- 25 m3 would be just right. Finally, if you do stubbornly stick with HAM-only damage bonus, please extend it to light missiles/assault launchers. At least it makes them a tiny bit less predictable. Originally by: CCP Fendahl Damnation The most criticised ship is probably the Damnation. Both for the loss of turret hardpoints and for its shortcomings as a fleet command ships with close range weapons. Like most of the other fleet (not field) commands does not support fleet operations well ... We plan to revise the fleet commands to better support fleet operations, but unfortunately we do not have the resources to do so for Revelations 2.2. In the mean time the Damnation is still able to support fleets with warfare links and a heavy tank, just as before the Khanid mk 2 changes and we are also looking into the fitting issues that people have. More suggestions are welcome, of course. See Sac suggestions above. Also, I sense a disturbing trend. If you're counting on ship balance to depend upon future changes, WHY CHANGE THEM NOW? Shouldn't you wait until all changes can go in, so the ships aren't lame in the meantime? Originally by: CCP Fendahl Malediction One point brought up for the Malediction is the EM damage bonus. With its stats and bonuses the Malediction is already a very able heavy tackler, but an additional bonus was needed without making it overpowered. An additional bonus to rockets would make it overpowered with rockets and pigeonhole it too much as a rocket ship, so a racial damage bonus seemed reasonable (in my opinion the 10% kinetic damage bonus on the Crow is problemative since the gap between kietic and other damage types becomes too large). Another point is the range. As the Crusader lacks flexibility for tackling with its 2 medium slots, the Malediction is the primarly Amarr interceptor tackler, but it is gimped by the low targeting range. Increasing the targeting range to normal levels might not be too problematic ... so we are certainly considering an increase. Rockets are still too limited even with longer targeting range. Give them a good missile speed bonus instead of EM damage. Originally by: CCP Fendahl Weak Heavy Assault Missiles Two complaints about the HAMs (relevant since Khanid rely on HAMs) is that they are too slow to catch up with high speed targets and that the range is too short when compared with Heavy Missiles relative to Rockets/Standard Missiles and Torpedos/Cruise Missiles. We plan to revise the close range missiles, but unfortunately not for Revelations 2. Again, don't do a half-change now, or make the ships so they aren't so badly pigeonholed into one specific weapon. Nobody else has so few viable options.
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:33:00 - [958] Quote: Common sense turn on! LOL. I don't know of any amarr pilot with any skill who wants to drain their target completely dry. we want to be able to drag every last bit of power sure, but to drain our target dry means we probably die - becuase we get out damaged and cannot repair OR shoot OR run. your comments may be in reference to gallente technique but does not align with amarr tactics. more to this point engaging minmatar ships with these rules in force will completely nerf amarr. basically handing minmatar the "i win eve" icon again. this gives any amarr ship no ability to even nos them down to de-activate a scrammer - because the clever minmatar pilot will maintain the absolute minimum level of cap to be un-nossable. at least today, if they want to play that game we can drain them for every watt and warp away. rebalancing utility slots is required. //sometimes less is more...zero
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:33:00 - [959] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Edited by: CCP Fendahl on 02/08/2007 01:22:03 One problem, however, is the Sacrilege. With the planned changes the sacrilege has 6 high slots, 5 missile hardpoints and no turret hardpoints. If the Sacrilege was given any turret hardpoints then it would be able to fit weapons in all its high slots and boost its damage to unacceptable levels. Point of fact. The sac currently has 6 hi's 3 launcher hardpoints 4 turret hardpoints. Thats a total of 7, so.... We're going from 7 hardpoints to 5, losing a possible weapon whichever way you look at it. Also a turret in the 6th hi wouldn;t have any ship bouns's to boost it, only natural skills, as all the ships weapon bonuses are now linked to missiles At present the Sac doesn't have enough DPS to break out of a wet paper bag, nor would it have the grid to fit a proba 6th weapon, normally having to fit focused med pulses opposed to Heavies. Also with the ship losing 70 powergrid it will be even harder to fit this many weapons and maintain a good tank, so i think the choice tank or gank is forced with lower grid even with 6 weapons in hi. Furthermore there is still the question of cargo capacity. These ships never HAD to carry missiles before but now they will. The caldari ships in the same class have nearly twice the cargo. Sac 450, cerb 650, damnation 350, nighthawk 700 (damnation/nighthawk fill diff roles i know), vengence 135, hawk 300, Still theses ships now have to carry missiles without a cargo upgrade to match. Sooo all in all a few things to complain about but i do like the look of the ven with rockets should be fun as will the sac, but they now lack weapon flex abilty and as pure Amarr trained this is gonna cost me 3.2mill sp in missiles to to make rockets/hams effective. could do it with less sp but if yer gonna train something its worth doing to level 5 :D
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:35:00 - [960] Fendahl, you did not address this question raised several times so far: HOW WILL NOS WORK VS. NPC SHIPS? It's sort of a big deal to those of us who use the agent system that so much work goes into, after all.

Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:47:00 - [961] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/08/2007 07:19:15 Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Long Fang So all in all i now need another 5-7 mill SP to make my ships effective again No you dont. You only need, 400-500k Missile skills for t2 hams + supporting skills to be effective. Missiles are very easy to train, unlike gunnery. I know - I have both 500k in missiles vs my 10mill in gunnery, yeah thats gonna be the same Yep. 500k sp to be effective with Missiles vs 5mil+ Gunnery to be effective with Lasers. It really is that easy. Missiles are fine for close range stuff. At long range (e.g 100km+) missiles are useless, and thats where your 10mil+ gunnery skills kick in. Apples and oranges. I too have pimp gunnery skills, and pimp missile skills - it really is a shock for Amarr pilots when they relise how easy it is to train for missiles. HAM 5 on its own is 768,000 skill points. and that doesn't take into account standard missiles rockets rocket spec ham spec missile lancher op missile bombardment rapid launch target navigation projection warhead upgrades 400k sp eh..... ok.. done the math, i'm gonna need a further 3,194,039 sp to make theses changes 'wrk' guess i won't train bs 5 then I have already said that you need only around 400-500k sp for t2 Hams to be effective. This is just the supporting skills for the weapon. I am not talking about pimp supporting skills all at lvl5, nor I am taling about including the t2 ham or rocket skills etc. Further up the thread, I mentioned that it would take a month for t2 hams and the supporting skills, however my post to you was not clearly worded, so for this I apologise. The supporting skills for HAM's to be effective (and not pimp - remember, this is minimum) Rapid Launch 4 Missile Operation 4 Missile Projection 4 Missile Bombardment 4 Standard Missle launcher 3 (so you can train HAMS) Warhead Upgrades 4 Thats pretty much the minimum you need to be effective, as well as whichever missile type added in top (e.g rockets or whatever). Ideally, you would train the above to lvl5 to qualify for pimp missile skills status. Once you have these skills, you can train up for t2 hams or t2 rockets (Rockets 5 is a rank 1 skill). Remember - you can train up t2 missiles in any order so you dont need to train them all! Also note that I missed out target Navigation prediction and Guided Missile. These skills do not effect Hams or rockets. So you can remove those from the list you posted. You can also remove rockets if you have no intention of ever using them from your list as well. Guided missile isn;t on there and Target navigation prediction - Proficiency at optimizing a missile's flight path to negate the effects of a target's speed upon the explosion's impact. 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles. and i say again, 400-500k won;t even get you t2 ham's let alone the support skills. Training to be OK is not what i said. For this to wrk for me i will need 3.2mill sp. If its worth training its worth training to level 5. As for being able to train t2 missiles in any order thats simply because T2 missiles where implemented to late to have them make any sense TBH. Thats really for another thread tho. One thing tho, HAM'S as light missiles 3 as a pre-rec shouldn;t that be rockets eh? but again i digress. In my opinion missiles t2 tree needs to be changed to match all the other weapon types. rockets-->hams-->torps lights-->heavies-->cruise tho i understand that its to late to do this now. Only other thing i haven't mentioned is NOS changes. but i only have 216 chars left on this post so no space
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:49:00 - [962] Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. /signed
R3DSKULL Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:55:00 - [963] Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. Someone give this guy the spotlight. Here is the most simple and effective way with the least amount of change to the game pvp mechanics as is. All you do is limit the ships that arent nos designed Brillaint give this guy a job...
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 03:57:00 - [964] Originally by: Zikka Why are you doing standard missiles and rocket spec? For tech 2 hams you need missile launcher op 3, standard missiles 3, ham V. Sorry my bad. This also includes having to train for the new vengence layout.
BelinuS Grettistak	Posted - 2007.08.02 04:07:00 - [965] i like the nosferatu change but the missile change on the khanid sucks ass sense it's just like copying caldari race with same junk but it only specs in short range missile still... comeon u most have better idies than that, tho i agree on some point khanid ship could add some launchers on there fitting but this is just stupid trained as a Suicider but lives with the madness
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 04:34:00 - [966] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. /signed Beyond that i would agrue that 4 ships NOSing one should be able to kill its cap even if the target has lower cap 4-1 nosing however no longer wrks, this man has got this covered, it is a winning idea i urge you all to support his idea, as it will have the effect of limting NOS on most ships without changing the way they work.
Stu Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 04:41:00 - [967] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. /signed Beyond that i would agrue that 4 ships NOSing one should be able to kill its cap even if the target has lower cap 4-1 nosing however no longer wrks, this man has got this covered, it is a winning idea i urge you all to support his idea, as it will have the effect of limting NOS on most ships without changing the way they work. Fang pulled me outta killin some stuff to read this but its excellent. ItBurnz, great idea mate, you got my vote.
Anator Namon	Posted - 2007.08.02 05:10:00 - [968] I really don't see why people can't just fit Neuts if they want to destroy someone's capacitor. Having NOS be for increasing your own, while Neut be for decreasing the enemy is very reasonable, and has the one that is a weapon have a cost. If people want to use it as a weapon, they should use Neuts. NOS will mostly be for high cap use setups, to supplement their own cap. It won't be used in large numbers, but as a utility. Note that the NOS ships (Bhaalgorn, Pilgrim, and others) need fixed, but they noted that and will do that.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 06:57:00 - [969] Originally by: Anator Namon Note that the NOS ships (Bhaalgorn, Pilgrim, and others) need fixed, but they noted that and will do that. Sadly I don't think this is the case. CCP's notion of fixing them will be simply to add the same bonus to neutralizers and increase the power grid. That is not fixing whatsoever - the pilgrim is dead with this change and I have now decided to self-destruct it in jita when this change comes out. The curse may be adaptable but is horribly nerfed as a solo killer and will probably stand no chance against passive tanked missile ships.
Zamemee KHM Corporation Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:06:00 - [970] Edited by: Zamemee on 02/08/2007 07:06:24 I just want to know if someone can explain this one little tid bit concerning the Damnation to me: why would you give a ship a bonus to HAMs, which use more grid than regular heavies, while simultaneously decreasing the ships total power grid and expecting us to use even more of these grid intensive launchers than before the power grid reduction? In what twisted reality does that make sense? I apoligize if I missed the answer somewhere in the past 34 pages

zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:13:00 - [971] i think posters in this topic need to specify whther their comments regarding nos are in relation to a "normal" amarr fit or the extreme case of nos-domi and nos-myrmi. it seems strange to me that ccp would invest such a critical and catastrophic change to nos on the back of basically 2 ships that use nos, not because they "have to" but because it fits and gives a better result than fitting weapons. i have been suggesting for eons that the matter can be resolved simply and elegantly by making them fit to specialty ships only or ships with a utility slot not able to fit a weapon. //sometimes less is more...zero
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:16:00 - [972] Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 30/07/2007 15:28:18 Edited by: Garia666 on 30/07/2007 15:20:17 Yet another nerf to amar.. and yet another **ed of player. Pilgrim, damnation, Curse, Dictor, Bhaalghorn! is made useless now You have no idea how **ed off i am about these changes.. Ill bet there is NO DEV who has his main char an AMARR one! Amarr is the worst race in EVE and with these changes you do it even more. WE spend so much time on turret training that now we have to train them on missles.. What are you guys thinking.. This is a sad day for amarr.. The game balance fals more and more apart with every change. How much can an amarr player take. The Sacrilege was a good ship. A pilot had the Drones, Lasers and Missiles to fight with. Now, the Lasers are gone. It was fun for awhile, now all the fun is gone. You have to buy Missiles. You don't have to my Ammo for Lasers Turrets. But, remember you as a player have no say in this game. You pay your dues and if you don't like it, well, you can always go play another game. Sad Day for Amarr Pilots.
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:21:00 - [973] Originally by: LukAsh Edited by: LukAsh on 30/07/2007 15:11:23 Ok, overall NOS should be nerfed somehow, sure... Tho the way its described in the blog is just weird. When you NOS a player and your cap rises the NOS get less effective.. you have 100% cap... he has 100% cap? This will be a quite a nerf for Amarr Pilgrim/Curse, they will need to now (need, while before it was an option) to fit neutralizers. Makes the fit less flexible, etc, etc... Maybe give more damage to Pilgrim/Curse then? Increase slightly their dronebays... they will need to use more costly fit to be able to break the tanks. Khanid MK2.. finally !! But... Damnation... Someone has been smoking something good I see # Fitting: 440tf (no change), 1300mw (-210mw) <- huge nerf, where is the buff then ?? Sacrilege... Could someone please try to make a projected (realistic) DPS graph for the old and new setups... please? Malediction... # 5% bonus to missile EM damage per Interceptor level (no change) Why only EM? why? Why???? Other Khanid have bonuses to all kinds of damage dealt with missiles, why this exception? I'm sure glad I trained up for the last 45 days to get T2 Lasers for my Sacrilege, now I can train up for Stupid Missiles.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:29:00 - [974] scared of surgery? show some balls and cut out the cancer: remove nos change nos-boats to neut-boats ??? profit! - putting the gist back into logistics
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:32:00 - [975] Once there was a great MMOG it was called Eve. When it started out it was small, then people started to come and the game grew. Within a numbers of years it was given many awards. Then somethings began to change. The voices of the players were ignored. The developers begain doing what they wanted. Soon, the game began to fall apart. People just left. After many years people forgot the game. They were too busy playing other games where the customers, (the players) were listened too. Thanks for recking Amarr.
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:36:00 - [976] Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 02/08/2007 07:38:09 Originally by: bellator militaris Once there was a great MMOG it was called Eve. When it started out it was small, then people started to come and the game grew. Within a numbers of years it was given many awards. Then somethings began to change. The voices of the players were ignored. The developers begain doing what they wanted. Soon, the game began to fall apart. People just left. After many years people forgot the game. They were too busy playing other games where the customers, (the players) were listened too. Thanks for recking Amarr. Khanid Mk II is based on Player feedback. The changes to Khanid ships are actually quite good. And, as has been stated by many others, Amarr still have their laser platforms (ok, so you have to fly a zealot instead of a damnation). If you still feel that the Khanid changes are crap, i would be more than happy to take all those crappy ships off your hangers for however much you paid for them. What's funny, is that the changes have been talked about for several months now. In light of that, i've been training my missile skills for some time, especially all the support skills, since I knew they would be upgrading the ships. I didn't know whether they were going to be making them into HAM or Heavy Launchers, so I have both of those at 4 within the next few days, and will train the spec skill for HAM's now. My medium lasers are also at 4. So, either way, the informed amarr pilot should have seen this coming. ----- free bree!
Pudgy McFudge	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:54:00 - [977] You're all a bunch of republicans
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:02:00 - [978] Well the rest of us who were not complaining before to have these changes are going to actively argue, suggest and do whatever it takes to shape them into something that makes sense. Of course in general it would have been best to do nothing at all. There are a few basic laws in the universe. Applying a solution to address an issue inherently creates negative consequences which force you to make more changes again and again because every solution raises new problems. I am certain when this is all over the devs and the community will realize things were far better off without any of these changes. P.S. Start the neutralizers are overpowered threads now so we can start that debate ahead of time
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:19:00 - [979] Originally by: bellator militaris The Sacrilege was a good ship. A pilot had the Drones, Lasers and Missiles to fight with. Now, the Lasers are gone. It was fun for awhile, now all the fun is gone. You have to buy Missiles. You don't have to my Ammo for Lasers Turrets. But, remember you as a player have no say in this game. You pay your dues and if you don't like it, well, you can always go play another game. Sad Day for Amarr Pilots. Not true anymore, T2 and faction cristals have a limited life span, like everything else, and they're a must-have for pvp. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
LoneCold Gallente Mojo Mercs	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:44:00 - [980] Omg, I only just found about this nos nerf. I'm not usually one to whine but jeez! This is seriously gonna mess up some people tactics like myself. My vexor is going in the bin, thats for sure, oh and maybe my domi too. Nos is too vital how could you do this ccp! You could have at least nerfed the amounts a little bit or something rather than just like completly change the way it works and ruin it. sigh back to the drawing board for how to support a darn tank. I think that if nos is nerfed, cap rechargers should be "UBERFIED!" or all ships should have more med slots to fit more cap rechargers so we can at least half support our tanks grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:01:00 - [981] Originally by: Bad Liz Well the rest of us who were not complaining before to have these changes are going to actively argue, suggest and do whatever it takes to shape them into something that makes sense. Of course in general it would have been best to do nothing at all. There are a few basic laws in the universe. Applying a solution to address an issue inherently creates negative consequences which force you to make more changes again and again because every solution raises new problems. I am certain when this is all over the devs and the community will realize things were far better off without any of these changes. P.S. Start the neutralizers are overpowered threads now so we can start that debate ahead of time According to that law, we should never change anything for fear of its potential consequences. At what point does the consequences of staying with a bad system outweigh the consequences of trying to make said system better? I would say that Nosferatu and the Khanid Ships were past that point where fear of change should allow them to ossify. Funnily enough, these changes were alluded to some time ago in one of the live dev blogs (I cba to find which one though), when they were asked if anything was to be done with nos. The nerf on Sisi is one of the changes they spoke of there. Khanid Mk II was suggested by Sarmaul, a player. His thread on those changes dates from 2006, and is now pushing 25 pages. I forget (again) which dev blog mentioned potentially using Khanid Mk II. Pity Sarmaul is banned from the forums presently. Free Sarmaul! Now, I'm really going to regret asking this, but what would you do if you were in charge of screwing around with the Khanid ships and Nosferatu, and told that the status quo was not an option. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Radioactive Babe Red Frost	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:15:00 - [982] I fly a Damnation a lot, and have been training up missles skills (alas went for heavies instead of HAMS's) because I fit my Fleet Command Ship as GASP a Fleet Command Ship. So fitting 3 x gang mods and lasers was never an option (gang mods use 50 cap ever 10 seconds) ... so I wanted missles for that no-cap use goodness. And for the people who say that the Damnation will be blown up on its way towards you.... have you ever fitted a full T2 tank with good supporting skills, while said Damnation is in a fleet with 3 x armoured warfare gang mods ... One of the best, if not the best, T2 tanks in the game. My only gripe is that the gits with too much money have bought all the 71 - 73mil Damnations and are trying to resell in Jita for 130+ mil. Hope you get burned with those guys Alas, poor risk vs reward, I knew you well
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:27:00 - [983] Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 09:27:50 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: Bad Liz Well the rest of us who were not complaining before to have these changes are going to actively argue, suggest and do whatever it takes to shape them into something that makes sense. Of course in general it would have been best to do nothing at all. There are a few basic laws in the universe. Applying a solution to address an issue inherently creates negative consequences which force you to make more changes again and again because every solution raises new problems. I am certain when this is all over the devs and the community will realize things were far better off without any of these changes. P.S. Start the neutralizers are overpowered threads now so we can start that debate ahead of time According to that law, we should never change anything for fear of its potential consequences. At what point does the consequences of staying with a bad system outweigh the consequences of trying to make said system better? I would say that Nosferatu and the Khanid Ships were past that point where fear of change should allow them to ossify. Funnily enough, these changes were alluded to some time ago in one of the live dev blogs (I cba to find which one though), when they were asked if anything was to be done with nos. The nerf on Sisi is one of the changes they spoke of there. Khanid Mk II was suggested by Sarmaul, a player. His thread on those changes dates from 2006, and is now pushing 25 pages. I forget (again) which dev blog mentioned potentially using Khanid Mk II. Pity Sarmaul is banned from the forums presently. Free Sarmaul! Now, I'm really going to regret asking this, but what would you do if you were in charge of screwing around with the Khanid ships and Nosferatu, and told that the status quo was not an option. (I am also Bad Liz) Read many many of my posts earlier in this thread where I suggest alternative solutions to these problems or support those made by others which I consider to be far superior to the path currently proposed by CCP. The fact that some of these changes were considered from time ago I find irrelevant and the notion that dev's are spurred to change something every time these "nerf" threads begin very frustrating. There is a nerf thread for almost everything in Eve on the forums. Change can be good, but must always be thought through and as subtle as possible so as to avoid creating lots of negative consequences. CCP has clearly taken the blunt hammer approach to the NOS issue and avoided the many other better suggestions. I would never argue that Khanid ships didn't need some changes but turning them into the backwards **** of caldari ships was not the way I would have gone. And perhaps would have turned HAMs into a useful weapon prior to creating ships that are based around them as many other players have commented here. However, I was never a fan of Khanid ships and have left most of the recommendation on that subject to those who fly them and are far more ed about these changes than I am. Still confident that these ships are now worth more in mins. Note: I have good caldari skills and am more **ed about these changes than many Amarr pilots I know.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:37:00 - [984] Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 09:40:03 Will make a comment on the malediction though because this change eliminates any possibility of amarr interceptors fighting against another ceptor. The crusader doesn't have the mid slots to web and scram while the new malediction is only geared to rockets which give it no chance of killing another interceptor - especially since there is no bonus there to rocket velocity. Thus, amarr interceptors now have no hope of going up against another ship in their own class because they either cannot catch it or they simply can't hit it. What it needs is a rocket velocity bonus or bonuses that are equally applicable to rockets and light missiles.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:56:00 - [985] Originally by: LoneCold Nos is too vital how could you do this ccp! Nos being vital is exactly why it needed to be changed.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:57:00 - [986] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 09:40:03 Will make a comment on the malediction though because this change eliminates any possibility of amarr interceptors fighting against another ceptor. The crusader doesn't have the mid slots to web and scram while the new malediction is only geared to rockets which give it no chance of killing another interceptor - especially since there is no bonus there to rocket velocity. Thus, amarr interceptors now have no hope of going up against another ship in their own class because they either cannot catch it or they simply can't hit it. What it needs is a rocket velocity bonus or bonuses that are equally applicable to rockets and light missiles. Epic Epic Epic fail. The Crusader was, and is, the Anti-Crow. The Malediction before hand couldnt fit for combat outside 10km anyway. Either you could catch something, Or you wouldnt hurt it. Same as it was. The crusader is worthless because it cant fit a web. That has got to be the most intelligent eve related thing I've heard this week. And the forums have been full to the brim with smarts lately.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:13:00 - [987] Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 10:17:13 Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Hammar Wolf Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 09:40:03 Will make a comment on the malediction though because this change eliminates any possibility of amarr interceptors fighting against another ceptor. The crusader doesn't have the mid slots to web and scram while the new malediction is only geared to rockets which give it no chance of killing another interceptor - especially since there is no bonus there to rocket velocity. Thus, amarr interceptors now have no hope of going up against another ship in their own class because they either cannot catch it or they simply can't hit it. What it needs is a rocket velocity bonus or bonuses that are equally applicable to rockets and light missiles. Epic Epic Epic fail. The Crusader was, and is, the Anti-Crow. The Malediction before hand couldnt fit for combat outside 10km anyway. Either you could catch something, Or you wouldnt hurt it. Same as it was. The crusader is worthless because it cant fit a web. That has got to be the most intelligent eve related thing I've heard this week. And the forums have been full to the brim with smarts lately. Its not worthless, its just not good. And the forums are filled with people referring to other ideas with awesome commentary like "epic fail" those who do are usually the first to be flamed and thoroughly deserve it. My comments are what I've heard from a number of other interceptor pilots and yes the crusader is limited by a lack of midslots like all amarr ships while the malediction now clearly can't hold its own in combat - and this comment is about the malediction. Maybe you know better about the crusader, though its not under discussion here since its NOT a Khanid ship. Love the offtopic people who pick on a comment you make which has almost nothing to do with the point of your post.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:19:00 - [988] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Hammar Wolf Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 09:40:03 Will make a comment on the malediction though because this change eliminates any possibility of amarr interceptors fighting against another ceptor. The crusader doesn't have the mid slots to web and scram while the new malediction is only geared to rockets which give it no chance of killing another interceptor - especially since there is no bonus there to rocket velocity. Thus, amarr interceptors now have no hope of going up against another ship in their own class because they either cannot catch it or they simply can't hit it. What it needs is a rocket velocity bonus or bonuses that are equally applicable to rockets and light missiles. Epic Epic Epic fail. The Crusader was, and is, the Anti-Crow. The Malediction before hand couldnt fit for combat outside 10km anyway. Either you could catch something, Or you wouldnt hurt it. Same as it was. The crusader is worthless because it cant fit a web. That has got to be the most intelligent eve related thing I've heard this week. And the forums have been full to the brim with smarts lately. Its not worthless, its just not good. And the forums are filled with people referring to other ideas with awesome commentary like "epic fail" those who do are usually the first to be flamed and thoroughly deserve it. My comments are what I've heard from a number of other interceptor pilots and yes the crusader is limited by a lack of midslots like all amarr ships while the malediction now clearly can't hold its own in combat - and this comment is about the malediction. Maybe you know better about the crusader, though its not under discussion here since its NOT a Khanid ship. I fly the Malediction. Did it today, did it yesterday, gonna do it tomorrow. How do you think the Mk1 Malediction was fitted? It cannot fit a rack of beams, or 2beams/2standards. Thus it was in some manner -- be it dual nos dual rockets, 3dpl 1 rocket, 3dlp 1 nos -- same range as it will have now with rockets. It's always been an 'inside web range' ship, its why most people didnt fly it. You got flamed for making absolute statements about things you have no experience with. I apologise, and will keep the rest of my posts towards you on the up and up.
TheDevilsJury GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:21:00 - [989] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Effect on Capital Ships The new nosferatu mechanics should not affect the tactic of using nosferatus and neutralizers to tackle capital ships. Capital ships can only jump with they have more than 70% cap left, so it is just a matter of mixing in a few neutralizers and maintaining your own cap below 70%. As 70% is significantly beyond the peak recharge this shouldn't be an issue. Speaking as someone who has been at a fair few capital ship battles (although never yet in a capital ship), you might have the wrong idea here. Capital ships are never tackled via capacitor. They are tackled via conventional means; warp scrams and interdictor bubbles. The purpose of the nos/neut is to break tanks, and tanks break when the energy gets too low to run any more rep cycles (near 0 in other words). If you rephrase your statment but say "10%" isntead of "70%", then it becomes far more difficult to be "maintaining your own cap below 10%". Even in conventional fights, the reason ships like the nosdomi fit so many nos is to break tanks. Fitting an equivalent number of guns wouldn't have the same effect on tank-breaking; this itself should be evidence that something is wrong. Smaller fights where nosboats are most effective are usually tank dependent. With the nos changes cap warfare becomes somewhat harder, except the problem persists; neuts can be used to break tanks and adding an equivalent ammount of more more weapons (measured in slots OR in fitting OR in cap use) remains ineffective at breaking tanks. While your four stated objectives are items that would reduce the effectiveness and change the role of nosferatu the module, they don't fix why nos are so extremely effective. Point 1: If you want to make that distinction then that's good, but leeching by definition involves at least some draining, so it is hard to balance the drain ammount properly. Point 2: You've solved this problem Point 3: Having a larger capacitor has never really been a drawback. The enemy can leech off you for longer BOTH before and after the changes the larger cap you have (assuming the same cap use rate). If you have a large cap then you can't use nos as effectively, which is a disadvantage. Point 4: See point 1. I believe the problem is one of "draining capacitor should not be necessary to break a tank" or "draining capacitor should not completely kill most of a ship's functions". None of your objectives follow back to this problem, which begs me to ask, what have you determined is the problem with nosferatu? In other words, why do you believe nosferatu are so effective in the current enviroment? I don't deny that they are too effective, but I want to know the reasoning behind your choice of changes.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:25:00 - [990] Right and I'm talking about why the current change to it is not an improvement which is the intended purpose of these changes. Anyone serious about fixing the malediction would have addressed its range issue not the rocket damage. Im no expert on it but feel this thread has given plenty of attention to the Sac and Damnation (most of that feedback was negative) while others have been little discussed. Do you think the malediction is really improved by this change and will more people fly it now?

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:25:00 - [991] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 09:40:03 Will make a comment on the malediction though because this change eliminates any possibility of amarr interceptors fighting against another ceptor. The crusader doesn't have the mid slots to web and scram while the new malediction is only geared to rockets which give it no chance of killing another interceptor - especially since there is no bonus there to rocket velocity. Thus, amarr interceptors now have no hope of going up against another ship in their own class because they either cannot catch it or they simply can't hit it. What it needs is a rocket velocity bonus or bonuses that are equally applicable to rockets and light missiles. Fit a webber in the third mid? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:26:00 - [992] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 01/08/2007 23:21:55 'Voice of reason' hah!... I think not. Nosferatu's are one of the final weapons systems that hasn't been re-balanced (smartbombs are the last), missiles have been re-visited, turrets have been revisited, drones have been re-visited (twice), nosferatu's time has come and this IS the right way of going about it. The posts against the change here remind one much of those when turret tracking got changed (actually they we're much more against at the time), or when drones got changed ("ZOMG!! this is the end of Battleships!!!"), or when missiles got the added explosion radius and explosion velocity ("Wwwagghhh!! this is the end of the Caldari race!!!")... ...they we're wrong, as most of you are now. It fixes issues of Large nos vs. small ships, fixes issues of cookie-cutter Dominix setups, fixes remaining nano-nonsense, puts a certain pair of recon ships back into the supporting role (though granted the pilgrim may need looking at), and makes that last high slot choice more than simply the no-brainer of "add nos nub..." All in all, jobs a good 'un. Wrong
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:31:00 - [993] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Weak Heavy Assault Missiles Two complaints about the HAMs (relevant since Khanid rely on HAMs) is that they are too slow to catch up with high speed targets and that the range is too short when compared with Heavy Missiles relative to Rockets/Standard Missiles and Torpedos/Cruise Missiles. We plan to revise the close range missiles, but unfortunately not for Revelations 2.2. So you are going to put these changes though even though at the moment flying a sac with HAM's is just not going to happen in PVP? These changes should be made WITH the change of the ship and if you "dont have the resources" then you shouldn't make the change until you do. HAM's are rather crap at the moment and I do wonder why you made these ships use them, maybe because you think not enough people use HAMs anyway because of there crappy range and damage, you only have yourselfs to blame for that one as you designed the damn things!!!!!
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:58:00 - [994] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Right and I'm talking about why the current change to it is not an improvement which is the intended purpose of these changes. Anyone serious about fixing the malediction would have addressed its range issue not the rocket damage. Im no expert on it but feel this thread has given plenty of attention to the Sac and Damnation (most of that feedback was negative) while others have been little discussed. Do you think the malediction is really improved by this change and will more people fly it now? The reason I was quick to flame, is that a lot of the negative feedback has been unfounded, regarding the sac for instance. It's got a ROF bonus to all launchers, if people are really afraid of using HAMs heavy missles are a viable option. But onto the Malediction. It's range has never been an issue for me. The biggest threat was Nos, followed by bonused drones. Nos is pretty much out of the picture, with capless weapons and the nos nerf. Rockets and a web will do just fine for clearing out drones, as well as any other option you're gonna fit on a ship that size. As it works out for me at least, rockets provide the following over pulses. No tracking issues, use no cap use, ability to use explosive dammage against armor tanks. Also, while tackling for a gang, my DPS is far far secondary to my ability to get somewhere fast and lay down the warp disrupt. With javs I can provide some form of DPS in warp disruptor range. If they are MWD'ing they wont do dmg, but if they are chances are I need to be webbing them to be doing my job fully anyway, in which case faction rockets will work fine. Solo, my dps is similar. Range is similar. Cap is more stable. The armor resist bonus will work well with my DC2, giving me better staying power all around - cap and tank. If you must fight at range with a Malediction, it recieves a 25% bonus to EM dammage for all missles. You can with good fitting skills fit 3 standard launchers if you wish. You'd probably be better off with a beam sader though, just trust me that the lack of a web is not an issue. The sader is pretty much the fastest int there is, and its beams tag out to 20k easily. No need for a web there.
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:06:00 - [995] Edited by: Phaedruss on 02/08/2007 11:12:26 The only thing that makes the rocket Crow capable in the interceptor role is the 10% bonus it gets to missile velocity. Malediction pilots without that bonus are going to have problems. I will say however that getting rid of the split weapon system is a positive step in itself. I believe though that the changes being made to the khanid ships in general will for some time exclude many established Amarr pilots who previously had no need for advanced missile skills.
RtoZ	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:08:00 - [996] I haven't read this thread, so my apologies if I repeat anything. I stated in this thread a possible workaround to the NOS nerf: Passive tanking and NOS The basic idea is that with the new NOS mechanics it is actually beneficial for a ship to get rid of its capacitance so that it can completely drain an enemy with NOS. With a passive shield tank and FoF missiles it is possible to maintain offensive even without cap, so this might be something to consider. While neutralizers require cap to be used, this system is, imo, better, because it can be used even under heavy assault from energy drain, while still maintaining a degree of defense. Add in one module dedicated to draining cap (a shield booster is ideal, as it will give you more hitpoints while active while quickly draining your cap so your onboard NOS is more effective) and you have a very nasty ship according to the new game mechanics. A passive raven imo is ideal for this setup.
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:15:00 - [997] Originally by: RtoZ A passive raven imo is ideal for this setup. That's true, passive tanked ships that don't require cap to run their weapon systems will love these changes. The question is, is that an ideal situation, especially given how much the changes are hurting the specialized NOS boats?
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:17:00 - [998] Originally by: RtoZ I haven't read this thread, so my apologies if I repeat anything. I stated in this thread a possible workaround to the NOS nerf: Passive tanking and NOS The basic idea is that with the new NOS mechanics it is actually beneficial for a ship to get rid of its capacitance so that it can completely drain an enemy with NOS. With a passive shield tank and FoF missiles it is possible to maintain offensive even without cap, so this might be something to consider. While neutralizers require cap to be used, this system is, imo, better, because it can be used even under heavy assault from energy drain, while still maintaining a degree of defense. Add in one module dedicated to draining cap (a shield booster is ideal, as it will give you more hitpoints while active while quickly draining your cap so your onboard NOS is more effective) and you have a very nasty ship according to the new game mechanics. A passive raven imo is ideal for this setup. Please post a setup for a ship like that. I'm betting you can't find one that is even remotelly effective.
RtoZ	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:28:00 - [999] Edited by: RtoZ on 02/08/2007 11:28:07 Ship: Stock Raven. Rigs: Shield recharge. Lows: Shield recharge. Mids: 1 x-large sb II, 1 large shield extender, 2 resistance amps, 2 shield rechargers. Highs: 5 or 6 cruise or torps, 2 or 3 heavy NOS II. Ammo: Faction FoF cruise or torps. I have access to all of these in a cost effective manner with a mission runner character, and there are thousands of us in eve. Alternatly you can swap in the amps for a web and a scramler if you feel confortable with default resistances. All depends on what you're fighting and how much support you have I guess. As for effectiveness... Well, EVE is a game of tactical superiority, and so much of the pvp is based on cowardness that in this logic effectiveness is a bit of a moot point. Judge the setup 1v1 I guess. Point is I think this would be an effective ship, and more importantly, it would be a COMMON ship. So my fear is the "NOS Nerf" is mearly a caldari boost. Anyways, I don't usually log onto Singularity, so feel free to test variations of the above setup. If they don't work they don't work I guess. But I have a feeling they will.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:38:00 - [1000] I love the changes. All of em. The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. Yeah it sucks that i have to train T2 HAMs and rockets(i have t2 HM, there just never was a reason to use hams or rockets for me), but if people fail to see the advantage of a bonused, capless, primary weaponsystem on amarr ships(which just happen to have the strongest capacitor anyway) in combination with this nosnerf i think no amount of pictures and explanations will help em. I mean people have fitted unbonused low damage weapons on amarr ships for years(projectiles), just to get capless weapons. Now we get a HAC with res bonus, cap bonus, and dual!! damage bonus with cap less weapons. That also brings me to the nos changes, first things first, i have flown curses, pilgrims and nosdomis myself(stopped flyign em cause i felt stupid wasting millions of gunnery SP and getting bored). That being said i knew full well how the prevelance of nos and nosships in this game ruined it for pretty much everyone else, i mean thats the whole reason i and many others have flown those ships. Nos where a countermodule to pretty much everything apart from missiles, projectiles and passive shieldtanks. Luckily we got damps to fix the missile/projectile problem and just left passive shield tanks alone. This change will also help ships like the deimos, zealot, AFs in general and many other ships that have trouble fitting cap injectors. Did the amarr recons get nerfed? Yes. Are they now worse than the other races recons? No. If anything the thought of meeting a neut heavy curse now makes me more nervous than a nos curse. With the noscurse i atleast had some time to react, neut curse will instantly nuke any HACs/recons cap instantly. P.S. This brings back feelings of nostalgia for me. Remembers me of the times when fitting a capinjector was optional and cap skills where more important than the size of your cargohold for sustaining your setup. Atleast if i get nuked by a neut i know he gimped his setup in several ways(higher fitting +cap use vs nos, burning capcharges faster) in order to deal with me. Also this is going to show the difference between people who skillfully manage a mixed neut/nos setup and those that only sprung onto the bandwagon to fly the FoTY ships.

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:49:00 - [1001] Originally by: RtoZ Edited by: RtoZ on 02/08/2007 11:28:07 Ship: Stock Raven. Rigs: Shield recharge. Lows: Shield recharge. Mids: 1 x-large sb II, 1 large shield extender, 2 resistance amps, 2 shield rechargers. Highs: 5 or 6 cruise or torps, 2 or 3 heavy NOS II. Ammo: Faction FoF cruise or torps. I have access to all of these in a cost effective manner with a mission runner character, and there are thousands of us in eve. Alternatly you can swap in the amps for a web and a scramler if you feel confortable with default resistances. All depends on what you're fighting and how much support you have I guess. As for effectiveness... Well, EVE is a game of tactical superiority, and so much of the pvp is based on cowardness that in this logic effectiveness is a bit of a moot point. Judge the setup 1v1 I guess. Point is I think this would be an effective ship, and more importantly, it would be a COMMON ship. So my fear is the "NOS Nerf" is mearly a caldari boost. Anyways, I don't usually log onto Singularity, so feel free to test variations of the above setup. If they don't work they don't work I guess. But I have a feeling they will. I'm at work atm so I can only judge that setup on a theoretical pov. First the obvious flaws: that setup is slow, you have a huge signature, you have no way of pinning you opponent in place and you have pathetic DPS and a sub-par tank. In a maxed skill char you can tank 269 DPS (or 514 with the shield booster active wich even with the 3 heavy nos doesn't last long) and you do an amazing 244 DPS. I'm fairly sure I could kill a raven like that with my crappy Amarr BC, let alone a BS. In the of chance that you do find someone who doesn't just laugh at you and kill you, whats keeping them from simply warping away?!? Its a good setup for killing cruisers and frig sized ships... probably.
Zikka The Establishment	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:54:00 - [1002] First up: Thanks for the dev reply and for reading the thread. Overall I think these changes are a good thing... ...however: HAMS need fixing now if you are changing this many ships to use them. In particular: Why does short range missiles have higher fitting requirements than long range ones? This is the opposite of all other weapon systems. It makes no sense as a short range boat needs more tank and more speed than a long range one - so needs more fitting to achieve that. 1. Reduce HAM (and potentially torp - but that's a subject for another day) to the same fitting as heavies or even lower. (compare blasters to rails, rockets to lights) 2. Double the speed of HAM and reduce the flight time by 40 or 50%. This will only slightly or not at all increase range but will give them a chance of catching fast ships. Sacrilige: I don't see a problem with adding laser hard points, will a single extra laser make that much difference? I certainly think the current solution is better than removing that utility slot though. Damnation: This ship has the same number of launchers as the sacrilige and one less damage bonus. It really needs some love if you want it to be any use as an actual combat ship. Even as simple as giving it another few launcher hardpoints so people can fit weapons instead of gang mods if they want to.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:59:00 - [1003] Bah now i completly forgot to mention the short range only problematic. I agree with people that its not so great to be "forced" into using a certain weapon by boni instead of the more subtle fitting requirements. But i also understand that ccp wants to make sure these ships fill a different role than caldari ships. Some people also said HAMs dont get used atm cause they are bad, well thats only half the truth. Actually HAMs are pretty good, there just never existed a ship able to use them properly. Let me elaborate: HAMs are part of what i would call the dumbfire line of missiles(rockets, hams, torps), i.e. they dont profit from the skills that got introduced after the big missile nerf(sig and speed affecting damage) to counter the damage loss due to speed and sig, apart from torps these dumbfire missiles also have quite limited range. The combination of the facts above pretty much meant you had to go into webrange, and preferably also web the target to keep it a) in range, and b) increase damage for fast moving ships. There pretty much never was a ship that could fit mwd(to get in range), web, points + cap injector and any form of reasonable tank while having a HAM effecting missile bonus before. Now there is such a ship, and i really would like to see how it developes before calling for more damage/range or something. Same thing applies to vengeance, you cant really compare it to a hawk because a vengeance can fit full tackle + tank, being able to fit the same weapons is about the point where the similaritys end. P.S. And please for the love of amarr stop complaining about the low speed of your new missile ships, your going to make the gallente blastership pilots cry.
ZenTex Trade and Research Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:01:00 - [1004] 1stof all, I ddint feel the need for a NOS nerf at all, yes, it was a powerful module, but everyone could fit one. The best thing was that it was both an offensive weapon and a defensive one, and a last resort to escape scrambling ceptors. I knew something was coming, but I expected a adjustment in cap drained, what we got is a sledgehammer nerf. Nerfing is bad, mkay? So now people are posting crazy setups trying to make them even remotely useful. And no, neuts can never replace NOS's. This was a bit over the edge, for a module everyone could use. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:01:00 - [1005] WARNING: RANT INSIDE So i went to Testserver to check out the new Damnation and how its fitting would stack up against my Eos: EOS 4x Electron Blaster II + 3x Warfare Mod 10mn MWD + WEB II + 20km Disruptor named + Medium Cap Booster II + Drone Mod 2x Rep II + DC II + Explosive II + EANM II 5x Ogre II 2x Nano Pump I --------------------- = 561/562 cpu, 1660/1781mW, 486dps, 609tank DAMNATION 4x HAML II + 3x Warfare I 10mn MWD II + WEB named + Disrutor named + Medium Inj Named 2x MREP II + DC II + 3x Hardener II 5x Warrior II 2x Nano Pump I -------------------- 625/550cpu, 1735/1625mW, 250dps, 823tank Conclusion: *Screw you, i want my old Damnation Back! Impossible Fitting, half the dps for only a third better tank. NOT AMUSED.* Dont tell me to downgrade everything to named or basic or ill come to you ingame and show you my eos. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:04:00 - [1006] Originally by: Zikka Damnation: This ship has the same number of launchers as the sacrilige and one less damage bonus. It really needs some love if you want it to be any use as an actual combat ship. Even as simple as giving it another few launcher hardpoints so people can fit weapons instead of gang mods if they want to. This is inline with caldari and minmatar ships. Only the eos has a significant damage improvement over its racial HAC, and it always was the weird one among the fleet command ships(weird as in "how weird im bbqing fieldcommands that are supposed to be the combat variant solo" ).
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:07:00 - [1007] Edited by: speedcat on 02/08/2007 12:10:31 Edited by: speedcat on 02/08/2007 12:09:12 Why people are that hard to understand? This NOS-Nerf is NO SOLUTION CCP !! NOSDomi will change into NeutDomi... because there I have enough Cap to spend for Neuts. The real problem are smaller ships that in the past had a chance to dry down bigger ships... you can't be serious if you mean we put Cap Boosters on for having energy for the Neuts... :-( And for all the people hating NOS... I also hate the speed of a vagabond, I also hate the interceptors flying 9k but I don't want to nerf them... it's the way it should be. As I said before... Minmatar-Pilots train for this and as a Gallente I train for tank and short range. And if I finally managed to do a fight against a Raven in close range I want to drain it down maybe with a smaller ship. The idea with limitating NOS on the Domi per slots is also acceptable or maybe on every ship... Is the problem solved for NOSDomi haters??? NO!!! It isn't... the just use a single Neutralizer on your Crow and you stand still... so what's the idea behind this nerf? I also can fit 2 Neuts on an EOS and dry a interceptor. No problem! But the problem is not solved. Because I don't need to dry a ceptor, I need to have chance against bigger targets. Not everyone misuse the NOS on their ships... I WANT MY CHANCE AGAINST BIGGER SHIPS BACK ! br speed
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:07:00 - [1008] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/08/2007 12:08:25 Originally by: Fager 3a) a curse versus a BS will have problem draining its cap without taking heavy if not all of its own cap. As stated before no other recon can in most cases kill a BS solo either. The hole in this argumentation is that every recon can do something other recons cannot do. The huginn is a very strong counter against speedsetups, which makes it an essential ship in any gang of any size. The lachesis is a better tackler than the curse and more efficient at disabeling enemy ships. And as added bonus both the lach and hug have almost 50% more dps than the curse (which make them post-nosnerf actually a good deal more efficient in 1v1 than it). The rook is even better at disabeling enemy ships than the lachesis. The nos/neut ability of the curse however is only really useful solo or in very small gangs - in bigger gangs a primaried ship will die before it will run out of cap, which make nosses & neuts rather pointless there. Being able to kill targets alone efficiently is its specialisation.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:10:00 - [1009] Originally by: Perry WARNING: RANT INSIDE So i went to Testserver to check out the new Damnation and how its fitting would stack up against my Eos: EOS 4x Electron Blaster II + 3x Warfare Mod 10mn MWD + WEB II + 20km Disruptor named + Medium Cap Booster II + Drone Mod 2x Rep II + DC II + Explosive II + EANM II 5x Ogre II 2x Nano Pump I --------------------- = 561/562 cpu, 1660/1781mW, 486dps, 609tank DAMNATION 4x HAML II + 3x Warfare I 10mn MWD II + WEB named + Disrutor named + Medium Inj Named 2x MREP II + DC II + 3x Hardener II 5x Warrior II 2x Nano Pump I -------------------- 625/550cpu, 1735/1625mW, 250dps, 823tank Conclusion: *Screw you, i want my old Damnation Back! Impossible Fitting, half the dps for only a third better tank. NOT AMUSED.* Dont tell me to downgrade everything to named or basic or ill come to you ingame and show you my eos. Thats a very reasonable fit and comparsion. If the setup would actually fit on the damnation i would argue half dps for a third more tank might be a fair tradeoff(especially as alot of the EOS dps isnt instant and destructible to boot), as it doesnt fit though i agree that this should be adressed since you cant downgrade from hams and are pretty much forced to use them.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:12:00 - [1010] Good post, hopefully CCP calls in the 'subject to change' chip on the Damnations fitting stats.

Lana Bird	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:13:00 - [1011] Originally by: CCP Fendahl I can't believe that I finally finished reading close to 1000 posts Nosferatu Changes There still seem to be some confusion about the exact mechanics, so I'll try to clarify. Suppose you are in a ship with a capacitor capacity of 2000en and have 600en left (30%). Further suppose that you activate a Nosferatu on a ship with 350en out of 1000en left (35%). The Nosferatu can then transfer up to 5% of the targeted ships capacitor capacity (the difference between the charge percentages), i.e. up to 50en (5% of 1000en). If you're using a Heavy Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 120en, then the actual transfer amount is capped at the maximum 50en, leaving you with 650en (32.5%) and your opponent with 300en (30%). If you're using a Medium Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 36en, then the transfer amount is not limited since 36en is below the maximum allowed transfer amount. This means that you end up with 636en (31.8%) and your opponent ends up with 350en - 36en = 314en (31.4%). A second Medium Nosferatu II would then not transfer anything since you now have a higher charge level than your opponent, but it would remain active (and not auto-deactivate). This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Effect on Capital Ships The new nosferatu mechanics should not affect the tactic of using nosferatus and neutralizers to tackle capital ships. Capital ships can only jump with they have more than 70% cap left, so it is just a matter of mixing in a few neutralizers and maintaining your own cap below 70%. As 70% is significantly beyond the peak recharge this shouldn't be an issue. Migration to Neutralizers With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before. However then fitting requirements on neutralizers are higher than for nosferatus, so we are considering to lower the fitting requirements a bit (this might happen and it might now happen). Constructive feedback is useful as always. Another issue is that neutralizers are generally used in combinations with nosferatus to reclaim some most of the energy spent on neutralizers. After the change, cap warfare will become harder since you now have to expend energy yourself in order to drain an opponent. Notice that ships with a bonus to energy drain amount have a significant advantage when using neutralizers since they can neutralize a lot more energy in the target ship for the energy spent. The duration on the Neutralizers is also an important aspect. Currently the duration of neutralizers is twice that of nosferatus, which means that they hit harder but less often. There are trade offs either way whether we keep them hard hitting as now (kill cap fast) or move them closer to the frequency of nosferatus (kick 'em while they're down). Ships Specializing in Capacitor Warfare Ships that specialize in capacitor warfare will naturally still be supported with the change of mechanics. The blood raider ships (Bhaalgorn, Ashimmu and Cruor) will get their bonuses to Nosferatus transfer amount extended to Neutralizers as part of the general balancing changes. As noted in the dev blog, more to follow on this once the aftershock of the dev blog settles. leave my game alone silly little man.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:20:00 - [1012] Originally by: Aramendel The nos/neut ability of the curse however is only really useful solo or in very small gangs - in bigger gangs a primaried ship will die before it will run out of cap, which make nosses & neuts rather pointless there. Being able to kill targets alone efficiently is its specialisation. What makes you think that a nos/neut combination is worse than a pure nos setup for 1vs1 against non BS? You can nuke the cap of most targets of similar size 3x over even with pure neut setup, and i disagree that any recon should be able to solo a properly setup pvp BS easily, thats not a role, thats BS(excuse the language). Recons should provide support to small/med sized gangs, and neut curse properly used are awesome there. Single neut on a curse can kill 360 cap for 113cap use, thats pretty serious stuff. And whatever cap charges you need to do that with several neuts, you can be sure sure that your enemy is going to use 2x as many and still wont be able to keep his stuff running.
MrRon	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:45:00 - [1013] Nos change = realy bad! Oh no that battleship is wtf pwning my inty/cruiser/battle cruiser by draining all cap.. yeh correct, its a frakin battleship..the daddy, what we all wanted to fly when we started playing (now theres cap ships but hey), a battleship should be able to defend its self against smaller ships..because its weapons cant.. inty sees solo battleship..scrams him..battleships guns/cruise/torps cant do anything..battleship maybe has a few small drones..inty shoots drones..battleship still fraked. Yes you can neut him but a neut is not always what you want in a fight, many battleships rely on nos during fights. Any way, my point is..its a battleship and it should not fear any other smaller ship. Keep nos as it is please
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:52:00 - [1014] Originally by: MrRon Nos change = realy bad! Oh no that battleship is wtf pwning my inty/cruiser/battle cruiser by draining all cap.. yeh correct, its a frakin battleship..the daddy, what we all wanted to fly when we started playing (now theres cap ships but hey), a battleship should be able to defend its self against smaller ships..because its weapons cant.. inty sees solo battleship..scrams him..battleships guns/cruise/torps cant do anything..battleship maybe has a few small drones..inty shoots drones..battleship still fraked. Yes you can neut him but a neut is not always what you want in a fight, many battleships rely on nos during fights. Any way, my point is..its a battleship and it should not fear any other smaller ship. Keep nos as it is please You sir, have no clue, what Battleships are for. A Battleship is not supposed to do everything on it's own, and you'll hardly find any solo Battleship outthere today without a support-fleet of smaller vessels. A Battleship is ment to deal damage, lot's of it and small Frigates are there to protect those. So you wan't to defend against Interceptors? Bring support! .
molto malo	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:54:00 - [1015] I dont like the way the nos is going to be nerfed while i do agree it needs doing there are better ways for this to happen. making the ammount of engery drained linked to the size of the ship you are nos'in would be a more a effective way of making nos fair within the game. Molto
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:54:00 - [1016] Originally by: Bentula What makes you think that a nos/neut combination is worse than a pure nos setup for 1vs1 against non BS? You can nuke the cap of most targets of similar size 3x over even with pure neut setup, and i disagree that any recon should be able to solo a properly setup pvp BS easily, thats not a role, thats BS(excuse the language). Recons should provide support to small/med sized gangs, and neut curse properly used are awesome there. Single neut on a curse can kill 360 cap for 113cap use, thats pretty serious stuff. And whatever cap charges you need to do that with several neuts, you can be sure sure that your enemy is going to use 2x as many and still wont be able to keep his stuff running. In bigger gangs primaried ship die long before they run out of cap. Capwarefare past the small gang area has no real effect. Which makes amarr recons the worst recons in medium-big gangs. They have a disadvantage there. What advantage do you think makes up for that? With the nos changes it will make the lach and huginn (which have a better gangperformance than the curse) also better in 1v1 since they have, as said, almost 50% more dps. Without any damagemods. A curse sure can try to neut the cap of a single target - however it cannot allow itself to get below peak cap recharge of 30% cap because it needs that to power its EW and scram. So it can do nothing at all from stopping the target recharging cap up to its peak recharge. Nosses won't give it any cap and it cannot use neuts without running out of cap itself.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.02 12:58:00 - [1017] Originally by: CCP Fendahl More feedback would be appreciated as allways (positive or negative). If you oppose the changes then that's fine of course, but please try to be constructive and specify precisely what sucks and why (and even better: what might be done differently). Back to work Are you kidding??? What do you think ppl have done in the last 2 years in the ships forum in a 100 pages long thread about amarr? There are tons of constructive and better ideas than you can even think in your little world that is your desk. Talk to some amarr pilots ingame and they tell you the truth about amarr ships and how to use them effectivly. And about amarr pilots without missile skills: The sacrilege had a missile bonus when it got introduced and many ppl used it and trained (heavy!!!) missile skills. Yes it was a great ship but lacked in damage cuz it had a split laser and missile bonus. Now you transform it back into the missile boat but limit it to T1 damage output cuz you leave out the heavy missiles which would make it more effective. A caracal does more damage than this Sacrilege. The racial damage bonus is great, I love it. Now just give it a bonus to heavy missiles and we can start talking about it as a cruiser. I have a better idea. Show us some of those nice graphs that came with the last ship changes. If you can prove that the sacrilege will be a better ship, then I¦ll shut up and use it as you think its intended. I let you figure out what you should do if you fail. Ship lovers click here
Don Shadow Spectrum Solutions INC Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:03:00 - [1018] hmm, let me think about some feedback....hmm.. oh, i got it: I don't want any more ****ing changes, i want first of all that you guys can fix the lag problems, fix the other well-known bugs, and maibe then, we can sit at a coffe/juice/bier and talk about changes P.S. all i can think right now is this: all that nos nerf will bring more lag to the server, cose the hamsters will have to "measure" my cap now, then the one of my enemy, then to compare who has a bigger cap, then to calculate how much they have to cut of my cap and add to my enemy....and i can't stop asking myself, "how many noses are online" in a sunday night with +30k of players ... so pls, let the nos alone, you have others problems to look after
Persephone Heaven	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:08:00 - [1019] I dont fly Amarr so I cant comment with any authority on the Khanid changes but seems stupid to tie a ship to a specific weapon. DonÆt bother with the NOS Nerf, just take NOS out of the game because they wont be worth jack s**t if this change is implemented. Seems like it was devised by a 2 year old for all the thought thatÆs gone into it. Agreed, instant cap death to small ships is a problem but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. How about finding a solution to this problem without completely destroying the NOS. I'm a NOS Domi pilot and at the moment when I fight another BS itÆs a gamble whether his Damage dealing will out do my repping and NOSing. If this change goes ahead I will never be able to break a tank and win against a damage dealer. HereÆs my view about NOS and how they should work:- Agreed, instant cap death to small ships is a problem NOS is a high slot weapon and should be dangerous. ItÆs an alternative to a turret or a missile bay. By fitting a NOS you are choosing to attack cap instead of shield/Armour/Hull. You cant kill someone with a NOS!!!! So sacrificing a turret for a NOS should return a benefit to the pilot and it should be pilot choice about how many to fit without a stack nerf deciding the limit to fit. It should aways be possible to break a ships Cap with many NOS be it on one ship or many if that how you choose to play. Otherwise whatÆs next, a stacking penalty for blasters to reduce the amount damage they do just in case you fit too many? NOS should continue to be as effective against the same size of ship eg BS vs BS and effectiveness should reduce against smaller ships eg BS vs Inty Interceptors can fly faster than any drone or missile and faster than any gun can track. At the moment the only thing that stops everyone from flying inites instead of BS is the fear that a larger ship might have a NOS fitted. How the hell is a BS pilot meant to defend himself against a wolf pack of frigs now or even a single interceptor? You would be crazy to fly a BS after this Nerf. NOS are also used to feed other things on the NOS boat and are part of the Cap regen calculation. If you cant predict at all how much cap you will get from the NOS again it is useless Large NOS should always draw more power than smaller NOS Please see next post for a propsed solution
OneSock Silentia Mortalis	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:15:00 - [1020] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Nosferatu Changes This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap Ok so what about making Nos drain relate to sig radius ? Sperates Nos from Neuts. Yes. Protects ships being insta-drained. Yes. Having large cap an advantage. Erm, Yes generally helps ! Keeps Nos effective. Yes. Er sooo ? What am I missing ? Anyway what was the problem with Nos ? Too powerful ? Weaken it. Too similar to Neut. Merge them to a single module. And how much lag with this add ? rather than suckin a set ammount your now having to query each ship cap percentage work out the difference and then subtract that from the Nos figure. "Need for speed" mean anything ?

Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:16:00 - [1021] Originally by: Aramendel In bigger gangs primaried ship die long before they run out of cap. Capwarefare past the small gang area has no real effect. Which makes amarr recons the worst recons in medium-big gangs. They have a disadvantage there. What advantage do you think makes up for that? With the nos changes it will make the lach and huginn (which have a better gangperformance than the curse) also better in 1v1 since they have, as said, almost 50% more dps. Without any damagemods. A curse sure can try to neut the cap of a single target - however it cannot allow itself to get below peak cap recharge of 30% cap because it needs that to power its EW and scram. So it can do nothing at all from stopping the target recharging cap up to its peak recharge. Nosses won't give it any cap and it cannot use neuts without running out of cap itself. What you said about large gangs is true, and the reason i switched to a huginn some weeks ago. My point is nothing ccp did with this patch affected this. The curse is not any worse in large gangs just cause the nos dont work the same way any more. And i think you severly underestimate the power of neuts on a curse. A single neut on curse will drain 30cap/s for a drain of 9.4 cap/s. You can keep that single neut running pretty much indef but i doubt there is any ship that can handle a drain of 30cap/s while trying to fight. Also you can run 5 med neuts for a few cycles atleast, thats the cap drain of 150cap/s or the equivalent of 15 heavy nos. In other words a neut curse is pretty much ridicolously awesome if engaging anything with less than 2k cap, and even BS better hurry with whatever they are trying to do cause not even a heavy capinjector with 800eds will keep them going for more than a few cycles.
Persephone Heaven	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:16:00 - [1022] Introduce the following attributes to NOS Attribute Large T2 NOS Medium T2 NOS Small T2 Nos Max energy Xfer 120 36 10 base energy Xfer 60 18 5 NOS efficiency 1% 2.5% 100% The idea is to introduce the concept of NOS efficiency, which is how good the NOS is at sucking energy from the target capacitor. Large NOS have a large maximum energy transfer amount but are very in-efficient. Against large capacitors this inefficiency isnÆt visible but when an attempt is made to use the NOS on a smaller capacitor the in-efficiency starts to show. NOS would retain their current energy transfer amounts as a new maximum transfer amount so against same size or larger ships they could be as effective as they are today. The amount of energy transferred in a single cycle would be made up from a fixed base value and a variable value based the size of the targets capacitor. The fixed energy transfer value is determined by size and type of NOS and would be derived from the existing energy transfer amounts for NOS today. As an example I have taken the existing T2 values and halved them. Thus Larger NOS would always be more dangerous than smaller NOS to any ship size. The variable energy transfer value is basically the efficiency with which the NOS sucks energy and is expressed as a percentage of the capacitor size of the target ship. Small NOS are much more efficient at drawing power than large NOS. This means that a small NOS will be as effective today against any ship size but the larger the NOS size the less effective it is against smaller capacitors The flowing table shows how the effectiveness of the NOS would be reduced against ships with smaller capacitors Ship Incursus Thorax Dominx Capacitor Size 325 1375 5000 Large T2 NOS60 + 3.25 = 63.25 60 + 13.75 = 73.7560 + 100 = 120* Medium T2 NOS18 + 8.25 = 26.25 18 + 34.4 = 36 18 + 125 = 36 Small T2 NOS5 + 325 = 10* 5 + 1375 = 10* 5 + 5000 = 10* += Adjusted to Max energy transfer value for this NOS As I said this is just an example. There are infinite possibilities with this system and the numbers can be tweaked to end up with the right result. For example, the base value could be decreased and the efficiency numbers increased to end up with the desired effect. This would also mean that the Curse & Pilgrim would remain viable ships. PS I dont know how to do tables in this post so sorry for data presentation.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:22:00 - [1023] Originally by: bellator militaris I'm sure glad I trained up for the last 45 days to get T2 Lasers for my Sacrilege, now I can train up for Stupid Missiles. Your T2 Lasers don't work on the Zealot? I haven't seen a "Medium Energy Turret Specialization (Sacrilege)" skill book anywhere. Where did you find it and how much did it cost?
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:23:00 - [1024] Originally by: OneSock Originally by: CCP Fendahl Nosferatu Changes This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap Ok so what about making Nos drain relate to sig radius ? Sperates Nos from Neuts. Yes. Protects ships being insta-drained. Yes. Having large cap an advantage. Erm, Yes generally helps ! Keeps Nos effective. Yes. Er sooo ? What am I missing ? Anyway what was the problem with Nos ? Too powerful ? Weaken it. Too similar to Neut. Merge them to a single module. And how much lag with this add ? rather than suckin a set ammount your now having to query each ship cap percentage work out the difference and then subtract that from the Nos figure. "Need for speed" mean anything ? Hmm well you know ... sometimes there are more than two ships involved in a fight i heard(several nos with small drain = still insta cap death). And sometimes ships use modules that increase their signature size in exchange for speed if those foul rumors i heard are true ... maybe ccp didnt want nos to be able to kill the cap of those fast and big(signature wise) ships?
zeho	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:24:00 - [1025] I'm not usualy one to moan, or indeed post in a forum, but I feel I must vent my feelings on the proposed 2.2 changes. NOS :O KHANID 2.2 WTH! Lack of direction with khanid ship? Missile boats? WRONG! And what about all the skillpoints trained? I sure hope you bring in a redistribution system of some kind. It amazes me that this crazy half-baked idea was taken seriously. Ok, please do spend some dev dollars on khanid ship.. but changing the entire nature of them is nothing short of butchery. 1. Knahid ships should be versatile. 2. THINK ABOUT IT - you're not introducing some new ships.. you tampering with ships that have taken MILLIONS of skillpoints to pilot effectivly. By making these drastic changes your pulling the rug out from under a great many players. This sort of thing can happen in long running MMOS - the devs seem to loose the plot or become bored and make some drastic change that gimps/alienates/annoys much of their player base. SWG is a prime example. I'm a returning player too - all the aditional content (late content) was enough to make me reactivate my account. These Khanid changes are enough to make me close it again. sigh z
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:25:00 - [1026] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Bentula What makes you think that a nos/neut combination is worse than a pure nos setup for 1vs1 against non BS? You can nuke the cap of most targets of similar size 3x over even with pure neut setup, and i disagree that any recon should be able to solo a properly setup pvp BS easily, thats not a role, thats BS(excuse the language). Recons should provide support to small/med sized gangs, and neut curse properly used are awesome there. Single neut on a curse can kill 360 cap for 113cap use, thats pretty serious stuff. And whatever cap charges you need to do that with several neuts, you can be sure sure that your enemy is going to use 2x as many and still wont be able to keep his stuff running. In bigger gangs primaried ship die long before they run out of cap. Capwarefare past the small gang area has no real effect. Which makes amarr recons the worst recons in medium-big gangs. They have a disadvantage there. What advantage do you think makes up for that? With the nos changes it will make the lach and huginn (which have a better gangperformance than the curse) also better in 1v1 since they have, as said, almost 50% more dps. Without any damagemods. A curse sure can try to neut the cap of a single target - however it cannot allow itself to get below peak cap recharge of 30% cap because it needs that to power its EW and scram. So it can do nothing at all from stopping the target recharging cap up to its peak recharge. Nosses won't give it any cap and it cannot use neuts without running out of cap itself. Curse ability to WTF pwn any BC or smaller size ship cap is still there with neutrons, the smaller the better for your own Cap. BS sized ship is troublesum and will require you to get dirty with your own cap, still possible to effectively kill BS sized cap in favor of your small gang. No other reconn can kill a BS either solo, while the curse will still have opssibilities for this, however it wont do it 100% anymore. Thats balance imo. On another note i still see ppl saying this is a nerf to amarr: 1)new _NEUTwarboats_ will be most efficient on high powergrid/Cap boats, thats where amarr boats shine. Amarr boats will have the easiest time to fit CAP warfare modules. Boost. 2)NOS-win-boats (generally Drone boats) will have to fit neutralizers, sacrificing even more powergrid hurting their tank, and using some of its own TankingCap to kill its enemeis Cap so the drones can finish it off. Not to note the droneships wont get extra cap for tank anymore also. Sure there is the NEUTdomi.. but its not half as scary as the NOSdomi but still it should be powerful. Droneboats can still sacrifice their guns for CAPwarfare but it wont make them 5 times as powerful as with using Guns anymore. 3)Cap is more safe in space, please ask yourself wich race has been since the start of this game whined about not having Cap for their flashlights? 4)NOS is a viable option of you feel your Cap hungry ship needs extra Cap from enemies not needing its cap so you can borrow it. Also works perfectly as a countermeassure for NEUTboats. NOS IS NOT DEAD. 4)NOS will be most efficient on cap hungry ships, Amarr being high on that list. 5)Passive Tanking wont have powergrid and Drones in most of the cases (atleast for Caldari boats) to efficiently use NOS as todays droneboats can. Ships like Raven are better of Active Tanking and NOSing truying to waste its cap just abit more then its apponent to tank with its own and its enemies Cap while shooting to even out its lack of DPS with missies. Fact is also Gankfittings 100% kills half your shield Tank so i seriously doubt it will put Raven at the status of todays NOSdomi. 6)if the bloodraider ship bhaalgorn get a neutbonus, its gonna be one hell of a Capwarfare-boat. I know im repeating myself, but as i read on it seem i have to. PPL say passive tanks will rule without understanding its flaws "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:25:00 - [1027] Originally by: Persephone Heaven I dont fly Amarr so I cant comment with any authority on the Khanid changes but seems stupid to tie a ship to a specific weapon. DonÆt bother with the NOS Nerf, just take NOS out of the game because they wont be worth jack st if this change is implemented. Seems like it was devised by a 2 year old for all the thought thatÆs gone into it. You can't coment with any authority on anything aparently because you don't seem to have a clue on how things work in the game... Nos is far from useless its just been turned form an IWin button into a defensive module, me and all the Amarr pilots who have a clue will continue to use it on our pulse laser ships whenever possible. Originally by:** Persephone Heaven Agreed, instant cap death to small ships is a problem but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. How about finding a solution to this problem without completely destroying the NOS. I'm a NOS Domi pilot and at the moment when I fight another BS itÆs a gamble whether his Damage dealing will out do my repping and NOSing. If this change goes ahead I will never be able to break a tank and win against a damage dealer. That means you are a really crappy NOSDomi pilot because I've never found one who had trouble against almost all the BSs in game, apart from top-of-the-line multi-billion worth BSs that some ppl fly that is! Originally by: Persephone Heaven HereÆs my view about NOS and how they should work:- Agreed, instant cap death to small ships is a problem NOS is a high slot weapon and should be dangerous. ItÆs an alternative to a turret or a missile bay. By fitting a NOS you are choosing to attack cap instead of shield/Armour/Hull. You cant kill someone with a NOS!!!! So sacrificing a turret for a NOS should return a benefit to the pilot and it should be pilot choice about how many to fit without a stack nerf deciding the limit to fit. You can kill someone with a nos, every kill you got on that NOSDomi of yours was because of the nos, the drones where just the final nail in the coffin. Fit a neut instead of a nos and you'll achieve a similar effect, only change is that ubber tank AFK-PVP of yours is now a thing of the past - EVE rejoices! Originally by: Persephone Heaven It should aways be possible to break a ships Cap with many NOS be it on one ship or many if that how you choose to play. Otherwise whatÆs next, a stacking penalty for blasters to reduce the amount damage they do just in case you fit too many? You can still break a ships tank with energy destabilizers, adapt and move on. Originally by: Persephone Heaven NOS should continue to be as effective against the same size of ship eg BS vs BS and effectiveness should reduce against smaller ships eg BS vs Inty There always existed and offensive cap warfare module, it is called a "energy destabilizer" or a "neut" for short. Originally by: Persephone Heaven Interceptors can fly faster than any drone or missile and faster than any gun can track. At the moment the only thing that stops everyone from flying inites instead of BS is the fear that a larger ship might have a NOS fitted. How the hell is a BS pilot meant to defend himself against a wolf pack of frigs now or even a single interceptor? You would be crazy to fly a BS after this Nerf. Fit a neut if you're so scared of smaller ships, it has the same range of the nos and it will zap their cap even faster. Also, BS where never menat to be solo0wnmobiles, use your own support to kill them. Originally by: Persephone Heaven NOS are also used to feed other things on the NOS boat and are part of the Cap regen calculation. If you cant predict at all how much cap you will get from the NOS again it is useless If you need the nos ONLY to help support your own cap, then this change will hardly affect you, the only thing uselless here is your post.
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:28:00 - [1028] On Khanid Mk. II, I have some concerns over how this affects Caldari ships, specialically the Hawk and Cerebrus which have traditionally been close range ships. To explain my concerns in detail, let's first look at the roles played by the two Assualt Frigates and the two HACs available to the Caldari. Both these of ship are split into two roles. The Hawk and the Cerebrus are designed for close range combat using Missiles. Neither of these ships has a particulary great tank and rely in getting in under a turret ships optimal where the damage recieved is less. This also provides flexibility in ranges for the Caldari. By limiting the ability of a Hawk or Cerebrus to using Heavy missiles you're reopening the age old argument of Missiles at long range are useless due to your target's ability to warp away before the msisiles reach it. That means any Caldari Assualt Frigate or HAC pilot that's going to fly at range will be using a Harpy or Eagle and thus have their skills pointed towards Rails and not Missiles or any Hawk or Cerb pilot is going to be considerably disadvantaged at combat against a Khanid ship because the Vengence and Sacrilege have better tanks so can survive the travel distance to get in range of what will also be their superior weapons. Whilst I'm not against giving Khanid ships missile/armour tanking capabilities, but as things stand right now, the Caldari have a very flexible arsenal in their Tech 2 ships, i.e., with the exception of the Recons, one Sniper and one Missile boat. By forcing the Caldari Missisle boats to go long range, I foresee many Hawk and Cerb pilots moving to the Vengence and Sacrilege which will better take advantage of their skill sets whilst being able to take advantage of those ships superior tanks. One possible way to avoid this would be to remove the Sacrilege's drone bay whilst giving the Hawk and the Cerb a modest drone bay therefore giving it the ability to field either EW drones or introduce Warp Scrambling drones so at least it makes the concept of a med to long range missiles based Frigate/Cruiser a viable option. Make a Difference
galphi	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:33:00 - [1029] Not sure if this was mentioned in the comments, but why is the Heretic the only one not given the 5% armour resist per level bonus? If you want it to get up close and personal with rockets, it really really needs some more protection. It's not like it has the Maledictions low signature. Or it's new armour bonus
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:34:00 - [1030] Originally by: zeho I'm not usualy one to moan, or indeed post in a forum, but I feel I must vent my feelings on the proposed 2.2 changes. NOS :O KHANID 2.2 WTH! Lack of direction with khanid ship? Missile boats? WRONG! And what about all the skillpoints trained? I sure hope you bring in a redistribution system of some kind. It amazes me that this crazy half-baked idea was taken seriously. Ok, please do spend some dev dollars on khanid ship.. but changing the entire nature of them is nothing short of butchery. 1. Knahid ships should be versatile. 2. THINK ABOUT IT - you're not introducing some new ships.. you tampering with ships that have taken MILLIONS of skillpoints to pilot effectivly. By making these drastic changes your pulling the rug out from under a great many players. This sort of thing can happen in long running MMOS - the devs seem to loose the plot or become bored and make some drastic change that gimps/alienates/annoys much of their player base. SWG is a prime example. I'm a returning player too - all the aditional content (late content) was enough to make me reactivate my account. These Khanid changes are enough to make me close it again. sigh z Boats like Sacrilage got a MAJOR boost. Damnation while still having closerange bonus can now Tank even better then before and still do its role of a fleetcommand ship. Generally Boosted. Amarr Laser Lovers still have their better Laser ships untouched, no SP wasted there. Pilgrim/Curse are questionable thou, but it seems it not that bad from ppl testing them. I think you should be happy really... I know many Caldarians are jealous atleast. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:36:00 - [1031] Originally by: John McCreedy On Khanid Mk. II, I have some concerns over how this affects Caldari ships, specialically the Hawk and Cerebrus which have traditionally been close range ships. To explain my concerns in detail, let's first look at the roles played by the two Assualt Frigates and the two HACs available to the Caldari. Both these of ship are split into two roles. The Hawk and the Cerebrus are designed for close range combat using Missiles. Neither of these ships has a particulary great tank and rely in getting in under a turret ships optimal where the damage recieved is less. This also provides flexibility in ranges for the Caldari. By limiting the ability of a Hawk or Cerebrus to using Heavy missiles you're reopening the age old argument of Missiles at long range are useless due to your target's ability to warp away before the msisiles reach it. That means any Caldari Assualt Frigate or HAC pilot that's going to fly at range will be using a Harpy or Eagle and thus have their skills pointed towards Rails and not Missiles or any Hawk or Cerb pilot is going to be considerably disadvantaged at combat against a Khanid ship because the Vengence and Sacrilege have better tanks so can survive the travel distance to get in range of what will also be their superior weapons. Whilst I'm not against giving Khanid ships missile/armour tanking capabilities, but as things stand right now, the Caldari have a very flexible arsenal in their Tech 2 ships, i.e., with the exception of the Recons, one Sniper and one Missile boat. By forcing the Caldari Missisle boats to go long range, I foresee many Hawk and Cerb pilots moving to the Vengence and Sacrilege which will better take advantage of their skill sets whilst being able to take advantage of those ships superior tanks. One possible way to avoid this would be to remove the Sacrilege's drone bay whilst giving the Hawk and the Cerb a modest drone bay therefore giving it the ability to field either EW drones or introduce Warp Scrambling drones so at least it makes the concept of a med to long range missiles based Frigate/Cruiser a viable option. The Cerberus is a close range ship??!?!?!? I don't understand much about Caldari boats but I always thought that "10% to missile velocity", "10% to missile flight time" meant that maybe they are expected to use the missiles from a longer range?! Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:37:00 - [1032] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/08/2007 13:37:33 Originally by: CCP Fendahl Edited by: CCP Fendahl on 02/08/2007 01:22:03 One problem, however, is the Sacrilege. With the planned changes the sacrilege has 6 high slots, 5 missile hardpoints and no turret hardpoints. If the Sacrilege was given any turret hardpoints then it would be able to fit weapons in all its high slots and boost its damage to unacceptable levels. The only way to restrict the damage would then be to move a high slot to medium/low, which would take away the auxiliary high slot and make the ship overpowered by adding a med/low slot to an already very powerful ship. In short I don't see how the Sacrilege could be given turret hardpoints without changing its performance as a missile platform. If this is the case, how can you justifiy the Eos, Myrmidon, and dominix getting not only the full rack of weapons on top, but also an extra mid/low slot compare with its competitors? edit: that being said, this has been the best feedback post ive seen in a long time.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:38:00 - [1033] Edited by: Rikeka on 02/08/2007 13:43:28 Now Amarr have to train Missiles too? We had to train Drones to fly the only good Amarr ship, now we have to train Missiles like an ordinary Caldari? Thanks for the months and months wasted training Turrets! I mean, now we are FORCED to train again for ships we could already fly well! Be serious and admit it, you hate us, Amarrians! +-+-+-+-+ Booya! It¦s red! Run from the red!
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:41:00 - [1034] Originally by: zeho KHANID 2.2 WTH! Lack of direction with khanid ship? Missile boats? WRONG! And what about all the skillpoints trained? I sure hope you bring in a redistribution system of some kind. It amazes me that this crazy half-baked idea was taken seriously. Ok, please do spend some dev dollars on khanid ship.. but changing the entire nature of them is nothing short of butchery. Khanid ships have always been about mixed Caldari / Amarr tecnology, what would you prefer, laser shield tankers?! Originally by: zeho 1. Knahid ships should be versatile. 2. THINK ABOUT IT - you're not introducing some new ships.. you tampering with ships that have taken MILLIONS of skillpoints to pilot effectivly. By making these drastic changes your pulling the rug out from under a great many players. I love this argument, really I do, there where so many players using them that they have always been the most underpriced ships on the market (you could get Vengeances and Maledictions for 3 mill), the Sacriledge had the nickname "suckriledge" and was considered the worst HAC around, among other pearls. Now CCP gives them a precise role and all of a sudden, millions of players where using this ships without anyone knowing! Originally by: zeho I'm a returning player too - all the aditional content (late content) was enough to make me reactivate my account. These Khanid changes are enough to make me close it again. sigh Can I have your stuff?
Luna Nilaya Black-Mesa THE V I G I L	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:43:00 - [1035] Originally by: Fager No other reconn can kill a BS either solo, while the curse will still have opssibilities for this, however it wont do it 100% anymore. Thats balance imo. Lachesis? Rook might be able with a clever fit and good skills.
Sal Tuskin	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:47:00 - [1036] I have about enough of this single frig againsts battleship debate HISTORY LESSON: in ww2 would a frig attack a battleship solo hell no, would the bs even fire its main guns 16in on us bs, no the ww2 bs had 10 5in guns on each side to swat those frigs now if 10 frigs attacked a bs thats a different story present day we dont have bs we have missile crusiers and frig they dont even see each other so doest work in todays world fast forward to eve should a single frig be able to lock down a bs, hell no that frig shouldnt last 4 sec with the bs guns on it, now but 10 frigs now we are talking. is the nos fix right or wrong there are better ways of doing it but CCP is like all other game companys 95% of there dev dont play the game so they have no clue of how to fix ****. All i can say is a single frig should stand no chance against a bs out
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:51:00 - [1037] Originally by: Sal Tuskin I have about enough of this single frig againsts battleship debate HISTORY LESSON: in ww2 would a frig attack a battleship solo hell no, would the bs even fire its main guns 16in on us bs, no the ww2 bs had 10 5in guns on each side to swat those frigs now if 10 frigs attacked a bs thats a different story As you just said, in WW2 a battleship would fit several smaller guns, to better hit smaller more agile targets. In eve, not many battleship pilots fit smaller weapons alongside their Large <insert> counterparts. And thus cannot deal with fast agile ships.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:52:00 - [1038] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: John McCreedy On Khanid Mk. II, I have some concerns over how this affects Caldari ships, specialically the Hawk and Cerebrus which have traditionally been close range ships. To explain my concerns in detail, let's first look at the roles played by the two Assualt Frigates and the two HACs available to the Caldari. Both these of ship are split into two roles. The Hawk and the Cerebrus are designed for close range combat using Missiles. Neither of these ships has a particulary great tank and rely in getting in under a turret ships optimal where the damage recieved is less. This also provides flexibility in ranges for the Caldari. By limiting the ability of a Hawk or Cerebrus to using Heavy missiles you're reopening the age old argument of Missiles at long range are useless due to your target's ability to warp away before the msisiles reach it. That means any Caldari Assualt Frigate or HAC pilot that's going to fly at range will be using a Harpy or Eagle and thus have their skills pointed towards Rails and not Missiles or any Hawk or Cerb pilot is going to be considerably disadvantaged at combat against a Khanid ship because the Vengence and Sacrilege have better tanks so can survive the travel distance to get in range of what will also be their superior weapons. Whilst I'm not against giving Khanid ships missile/armour tanking capabilities, but as things stand right now, the Caldari have a very flexible arsenal in their Tech 2 ships, i.e., with the exception of the Recons, one Sniper and one Missile boat. By forcing the Caldari Missisle boats to go long range, I foresee many Hawk and Cerb pilots moving to the Vengence and Sacrilege which will better take advantage of their skill sets whilst being able to take advantage of those ships superior tanks. One possible way to avoid this would be to remove the Sacrilege's drone bay whilst giving the Hawk and the Cerb a modest drone bay therefore giving it the ability to field either EW drones or introduce Warp Scrambling drones so at least it makes the concept of a med to long range missiles based Frigate/Cruiser a viable option. The Cerberus is a close range ship??!?!?!? I don't understand much about Caldari boats but I always thought that "10% to missile velocity", "10% to missile flight time" meant that maybe they are expected to use the missiles from a longer range?! Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... There is no sniping with missiles, traveltime even with velocity bonuses is lose-lose situation. In Mid range its viable but still outclassed by midrange gunners. Note also that Cerberus is slow, so its easily catch in midrange. The fact that there are no scrambling in midrange also proves to hurt the Cerberus since even if it can on occasion kite abit, nothing is stopping its target from warping away before the missiles start doing dmg. This puts the only real PvP distance of a cerberus relatively short couse it can more easily catch it targets then a more heavy DPS drake. If you really want midrange dmg a drake or otherships heavely outperforms a cerberus for less cost. Its outdmg in Midrange, when Sacrilage changes its outperformed in closerange. And its speed is already nerfed so using its range for kiting against gunships is just not there. The cerberus can still use the popular Non-tank Dampening+speed fit to utalize its missile range. The low speed thou makes this tactic pretty much useless against anything thats faster then yourself and still makes the cerberus unable to take. However its a Ewar+DMG fitting that only works couse of the powerful dampener module. Wich is generally a Gallantean wpn. Longrane+missiles doesnt work. Medrange requires higher speeds. Low range it will be heavily outperformed by sacrilage. It speed makes it unusable to shift ranges efficiently also. Wich would be a powerful advantage if it got a speed increase. Hope this spreads some light why missiles dont snipe. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:52:00 - [1039] Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 02/08/2007 13:43:28 Now Amarr have to train Missiles too? We had to train Drones to fly the only good Amarr ship, now we have to train Missiles like an ordinary Caldari? Thanks for the months and months wasted training Turrets! I mean, now we are FORCED to train again for ships we could already fly well! Be serious and admit it, you hate us, Amarrians! No wai! Amarr have to train lazors and drones, and even missiles to be able to utilize all their ships! Tehr is no other race that has to train 3!! Besides the ham skill has two!! skills required at lvl 3, one even a rank 2!! thats wai to much!! P.S. sorry couldnt resist, told ya id take yer name P.P.S. Just kidding .
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:53:00 - [1040] Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do ** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship. People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap. Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight. But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats. Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111). ** it. Yarr

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:56:00 - [1041] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/08/2007 13:37:33 Originally by: CCP Fendahl Edited by: CCP Fendahl on 02/08/2007 01:22:03 One problem, however, is the Sacrilege. With the planned changes the sacrilege has 6 high slots, 5 missile hardpoints and no turret hardpoints. If the Sacrilege was given any turret hardpoints then it would be able to fit weapons in all its high slots and boost its damage to unacceptable levels. The only way to restrict the damage would then be to move a high slot to medium/low, which would take away the auxiliary high slot and make the ship overpowered by adding a med/low slot to an already very powerful ship. In short I don't see how the Sacrilege could be given turret hardpoints without changing its performance as a missile platform. If this is the case, how can you justifiy the Eos, Myrmidon, and dominix getting not only the full rack of weapons on top, but also an extra mid/low slot compare with its competitors? edit: that being said, this has been the best feedback post ive seen in a long time. I say give it 4 missile and some turrets, this way the cerberus still have an advantage of 1 more missile slot. It will also be comparable with caldaris EAGLE then. As a missileuser i want it to have 5 missiles thou so i can get a good PvP missile boat. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:56:00 - [1042] Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 02/08/2007 13:43:28 Now Amarr have to train Missiles too? We had to train Drones to fly the only good Amarr ship, now we have to train Missiles like an ordinary Caldari? Thanks for the months and months wasted training Turrets! I mean, now we are FORCED to train again for ships we could already fly well! Be serious and admit it, you hate us, Amarrians! No.... you aren't required to fly any Khanid (Mk II) ships. You are still free to never train missiles of any kind and continue to fly the Crusader, the Retribution, the Zealot, and the Absolution as good as you ever did (which were the ones with turret bonuses anyway) because no change was made to them at all.
Kel Dario Amarr M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:56:00 - [1043] CCP Fendahl, you completely avoided to address how the pilgrim will fare with these changes. I take that as proof that you have no clue how to not break it after the nos-change hits. While it will not be completely useless it will no longer work as a solo ship against targets bigger then a cruiser. Neutralisers need their fitting requirement lowered. As it is now it's not really an alternative for nos. Something I discovered after I took a closer look on my setups and saw how much grid/cpu I had to work with. The HAM's also need their fitting requirement lowered (it should be lower then heavy missiles), and their range/speed increased a bit or we will have a gimped weapon system. How can you not address this before revelation 2.2 hits is beyond me. But enough whining, here I will give you an idea for a possible pilgrim fix: how about a 10% reduction of neutraliser energy cost per level of recon? Probably not enough but its the best I can think of at the moment. //Kel
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:57:00 - [1044] Originally by: Sal Tuskin I have about enough of this single frig againsts battleship debate HISTORY LESSON: in ww2 would a frig attack a battleship solo hell no, would the bs even fire its main guns 16in on us bs, no the ww2 bs had 10 5in guns on each side to swat those frigs now if 10 frigs attacked a bs thats a different story present day we dont have bs we have missile crusiers and frig they dont even see each other so doest work in todays world fast forward to eve should a single frig be able to lock down a bs, hell no that frig shouldnt last 4 sec with the bs guns on it, now but 10 frigs now we are talking. is the nos fix right or wrong there are better ways of doing it but CCP is like all other game companys 95% of there dev dont play the game so they have no clue of how to fix ****. All i can say is a single frig should stand no chance against a bs out And it still doesn't... just fit a NEUT (which is even more devastating against a frigate than the NOS).
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:59:00 - [1045] Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 02/08/2007 13:43:28 Now Amarr have to train Missiles too? We had to train Drones to fly the only good Amarr ship, now we have to train Missiles like an ordinary Caldari? Thanks for the months and months wasted training Turrets! I mean, now we are FORCED to train again for ships we could already fly well! Be serious and admit it, you hate us, Amarrians! Drones... all races have to train for them as a THIRD wpn system, gallente as a Second. Caldari has for ages have to train Missiles for 60% of their ships and HYBRIDS for 40%. Drones for almost all. Not to speak of the minmatarians.... Welcome to the world of EvE outside the empire. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Sal Tuskin	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:59:00 - [1046] that is true most bs pilots dont fit small guns for frig but even if they did wouldnt do any good a friginty will just sit at 15-20k orbiting at 1000-5000speed and just scram them till they can get help if a bs fitted guns to hit the frig it wouldnt reach them or if they fit long range small guns it couldnt track them nos is the answer to the bs single frig prob no if a frig could only use a 7.5k scram that is a differnt story then nef nos to hell and back i dont care hey i just came up with a better idea scram range= ship size frig/inty/cruser= 7.5sram bc/bs=20k or more scram kind of fixes the frig/inty prob bs fits 1small gun to kill frig or webs it ok didnt think of web but as u see there are pleanty of ideas, as i said before 95% of eves dev dont play so they dont know how to realy fix
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:00:00 - [1047] Reiterating some points from discussion that I think should be emphasized to the Devs. 1.) Current Khanid changes do not function without changes to HAMs - almost everyone has agreed on that and these should be implemented simultaneously (range and damage) 2.) Khanid ships are not meant to be caldari ships with armor tanks, but should be viable and as good as in their own role. Currently it seems they are definitely different but not as viable meaning a sensible person would just fly caldari (bonuses should be rethought and made more applicable to other missile types) 3.) The Neuts need reworking if this NOS change is to be implemented (fitting requirements, duration). 4.) The Curse and the Pilgrim require serious attention. Namely the Pilgrim, which is now dead - I mean dead dead not "I think with enough cross-wiring it still works." Nobody here has yet tried to claim that the Pilgrim should not be self-destructed (including the Dev himself) Personal points: the Dev's will regret this approach to the NOS change and I think its going to yield many negative consequences worse than the current situation.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:02:00 - [1048] Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 14:02:56 Originally by: William DeMeo Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do ** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship. People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap. Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight. But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats. Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111). ** it. This post is an amazing example of irony... or sarcasm... i can't really tell which because it is that amazing!
Bad Liz	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:12:00 - [1049] Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 14:02:56 Originally by: William DeMeo Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do **** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship. People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap. Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight. But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats. Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111). I support this post. Everything is too had to beat, every well thought through setup is overpowered because it obviously cannot be dealt with, tanks are too tough to break and damage is too hard to tank. We need to nerf everything, and call it balancing, as per the wishes of those able to click the post button. I am slowly realizing something very important, it takes far more time to train to use something effectively than it does to post threads and complain until CCP simply takes it out of the game.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:14:00 - [1050] Originally by: Sal Tuskin I have about enough of this single frig againsts battleship debate HISTORY LESSON: in ww2 would a frig attack a battleship solo hell no, would the bs even fire its main guns 16in on us bs, no the ww2 bs had 10 5in guns on each side to swat those frigs now if 10 frigs attacked a bs thats a different story Why compare a scifi game to ww2? Atleast compare it to present day, and present day reality is that no big ship will let a frigate armed with modern day torpedos get anywhere near a big ship no matter the armament. There where even those horrible experiments with dolphins in cold war, which where trained to bring explosives near big targets. Recent history is full a very small ships posing a huge danger to even the biggest seefaring vessels. Actually even a rubber dinghy would be extremly dangerous with a Davy Crockett, so be thankful for frigates not instantly blasting your BS, cause thats what RL implies.

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:16:00 - [1051] Originally by: William DeMeo Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do ** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship. People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap. Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight. But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats. Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111). ** it. The problem is NOS was the only WPN system giving 2 effects for 1 drawback. This made it too useful and needed a nerf. NEUT are balanced in gain vs loss compared to most other wpn systems. In similar matter Damps are the only EW giving 2pros althou it has 2 drawbacks. Its countermeasure also has 2pros vs 2drawbacks, so its debatable if its unbalanced or not. Its a fact that only the EW of damps are usuable on non EWAR ships... Its abit unbalanced compared to other EW and i suspect a nerf there to in the future to balance them. this is for another thread thou. PPL are _not_ whining couse they dont know how to beat the modules. PPL are whining couse they are unbalanced vs other wpn systems. PPL want balance! When some say whiners want a carebare land couse they made CCP nerf their favorite PWNship-of-the-day id say its those ppl who are the ppl destroying the game couse they want their super no-brainer modules... "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:19:00 - [1052] Originally by: Bentula I love the changes. All of em. The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. The Amarr are meant to be self rightous, un-wavering highly arrogant and have unshakeable faith in there own abiltys. Variety is not the spice of life its HERESY.
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:21:00 - [1053] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. /signed I liked itburnz idea that much that i'm going to mention it again
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:26:00 - [1054] Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do ** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship. People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap. Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight. But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats. Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111). ** it. The problem is NOS was the only WPN system giving 2 effects for 1 drawback. This made it too useful and needed a nerf. NEUT are balanced in gain vs loss compared to most other wpn systems. In similar matter Damps are the only EW giving 2pros althou it has 2 drawbacks. Its countermeasure also has 2pros vs 2drawbacks, so its debatable if its unbalanced or not. Its a fact that only the EW of damps are usuable on non EWAR ships... Its abit unbalanced compared to other EW and i suspect a nerf there to in the future to balance them. this is for another thread thou. PPL are _not_ whining couse they dont know how to beat the modules. PPL are whining couse they are unbalanced vs other wpn systems. PPL want balance! When some say whiners want a carebare land couse they made CCP nerf their favorite PWNship-of-the-day id say its those ppl who are the ppl destroying the game couse they want their super no-brainer modules... No. Fact of the matter is that though you do get a little cap from a nos the damage it does is VERY low in comparison to other weapons. It takes several minutes before the nos's start having some real effect and many battles can take up to 10-20 minutes if you're in a nos ship, nos is not a no brainer module just as little as a gun is a no brainer module. With guns you can put out 1000+ dps np, enough to break most tanks fairly quickly. So the nos ship has gotta tank those 1000 dps for maybe 5 minutes Yarr
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:26:00 - [1055] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. /signed I liked itburnz idea that much that i'm going to mention it again That sugestion doesn't change anything, bigger ships would still kill frigate's cap in 1 or 2 cycles with no drawback making wholle classes of ships completelly uselless (Inty's and AF's).
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:28:00 - [1056] Originally by: Fager The problem is NOS was the only WPN system giving 2 effects for 1 drawback. This made it too useful and needed a nerf. NEUT are balanced in gain vs loss compared to most other wpn systems. In similar matter Damps are the only EW giving 2pros althou it has 2 drawbacks. Its countermeasure also has 2pros vs 2drawbacks, so its debatable if its unbalanced or not. Its a fact that only the EW of damps are usuable on non EWAR ships... Its abit unbalanced compared to other EW and i suspect a nerf there to in the future to balance them. this is for another thread thou. PPL are _not_ whining couse they dont know how to beat the modules. PPL are whining couse they are unbalanced vs other wpn systems. PPL want balance! When some say whiners want a carebare land couse they made CCP nerf their favorite PWNship-of-the-day id say its those ppl who are the ppl destroying the game couse they want their super no-brainer modules... NOS should have never been considered a weapon system like others and imo there was never anything wrong with it. It gives 2 benefits and this is wrong, why? It gives them to everyone - everyone can put on a NOS, every ship of every bloody size with any slot. People don't like it because they don't want to play with it but are tired of being decimated by NOS ships and the reason this happens is because they don't want to change their setups to deal with those realities. There is NO rule in EVE that everything must work like everything else. Step outside of the box, just because the dev is stuck there doesn't mean you have to repeat it. Yes it has 2 benefits, and everyone has access to them - yes the damps have 2 benefits and everyone can fit them which is equal and balanced. And once again, most of the thought through post here are not people upset over change its people upset what it is being changed to over all the other much better proposals.
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:29:00 - [1057] Originally by: William DeMeo Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do ** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship. People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap. Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight. But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats. Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111). ** it. Couldn't have said it better myself. And the really twisted thing is it's not like you can just click a button and respec your skills. Even if you COULD, it would still be wrong; but under these conditions, when you have changes that grossly alter the fundamental principles of an entire class of ships that people have spent weeks and months of their game time training for... it's beyond comparison.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:29:00 - [1058] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Bentula I love the changes. All of em. The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. The Amarr are meant to be self rightous, un-wavering highly arrogant and have unshakeable faith in there own abiltys. Variety is not the spice of life its HERESY. Khanid Kingdom description: "The Khanid Kingdom, also known as the Dark Amarr, was founded a few centuries ago when the last Amarr Emperor was chosen. Khanid was one of the royal heirs at the time and, in accordance with tradition, should have killed himself after failing to become emperor. This Khanid refused to do and split his vast domains from the Amarr Empire. The empire retaliated, but only managed to conquer some of the vulnerable outer regions from Khanid. The Kingdom still upholds many of the tradition of Amarr society, but has also wholeheartedly embraced the customs of others, mainly the Caldari. Many visitors to the Kingdom feel like it is a surreal mix of the Amarr and Caldari empires." -------------
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:30:00 - [1059] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Reiterating some points from discussion that I think should be emphasized to the Devs. 1.) Current Khanid changes do not function without changes to HAMs - almost everyone has agreed on that and these should be implemented simultaneously (range and damage) 2.) Khanid ships are not meant to be caldari ships with armor tanks, but should be viable and as good as in their own role. Currently it seems they are definitely different but not as viable meaning a sensible person would just fly caldari (bonuses should be rethought and made more applicable to other missile types) 3.) The Neuts need reworking if this NOS change is to be implemented (fitting requirements, duration). 4.) The Curse and the Pilgrim require serious attention. Namely the Pilgrim, which is now dead - I mean dead dead not "I think with enough cross-wiring it still works." Nobody here has yet tried to claim that the Pilgrim should not be self-destructed (including the Dev himself) Personal points: the Dev's will regret this approach to the NOS change and I think its going to yield many negative consequences worse than the current situation. 1)HAMs range is fine, dunno about dmg vs ordinary Heavies.HAMs suck on caldari slowboats, they will ROCKnROLL on the new sacrilage. 2)Most caldarians on these boards are debating on fittings for the sacrilage andplanning on training amarr cruiser 5. You amarrians can take our cerberus if ya want, just hand over those sacrilages! Domination will now be the most heavies tanker of the fleetcommand ships. Not all about this is bad. Not to add that Domination gives Armor bonuses wich is the preffered PvP Tankversion. 3)CCP has stated they are looking into this. Perhaps ships made for these modules need some more fittingpossibilies instead of lowering the modules? 4)Curse seems to work according to testers. Pilgrim still has Cov-Op, Cyno(lol), TD and a nerfed neut/nos. PPL needing cov up will still use this over Curse. Its not DEAD, nerfed YES, DEAD not. To heavy nerfed perhaps but not DEAD. Just pointing out why DEVs might not be lissening to your points up there... Personal point: I think the DEVs made a smart move and will reap rewards in the future. The change bring some bad dead rats with it. But it fixes loads of other problems connectied with NOS, Amarr ships Cap are safer, Amarr ships are the best suited NEUTwarboats, Droneboats wont be EXTREEMLY hard to fight when they fit neuts instead of NOS. NOS still has GREAT use for anti-neutralizer or sustaining your heavy capusage ship. Some BS need to sacrifice more to fight small ships with neuts instead of NOS (sacrificing CAP and powergrid, instead of gaining cap and sacrificing more cpu). I can go on here... /rant "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Slade Bolgard Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:34:00 - [1060] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Hammar Wolf Reiterating some points from discussion that I think should be emphasized to the Devs. 1.) Current Khanid changes do not function without changes to HAMs - almost everyone has agreed on that and these should be implemented simultaneously (range and damage) 2.) Khanid ships are not meant to be caldari ships with armor tanks, but should be viable and as good as in their own role. Currently it seems they are definitely different but not as viable meaning a sensible person would just fly caldari (bonuses should be rethought and made more applicable to other missile types) 3.) The Neuts need reworking if this NOS change is to be implemented (fitting requirements, duration). 4.) The Curse and the Pilgrim require serious attention. Namely the Pilgrim, which is now dead - I mean dead dead not "I think with enough cross-wiring it still works." Nobody here has yet tried to claim that the Pilgrim should not be self-destructed (including the Dev himself) Personal points: the Dev's will regret this approach to the NOS change and I think its going to yield many negative consequences worse than the current situation. 1)HAMs range is fine, dunno about dmg vs ordinary Heavies.HAMs suck on caldari slowboats, they will ROCKnROLL on the new sacrilage. 2)Most caldarians on these boards are debating on fittings for the sacrilage andplanning on training amarr cruiser 5. You amarrians can take our cerberus if ya want, just hand over those sacrilages! Domination will now be the most heavies tanker of the fleetcommand ships. Not all about this is bad. Not to add that Domination gives Armor bonuses wich is the preffered PvP Tankversion. 3)CCP has stated they are looking into this. Perhaps ships made for these modules need some more fittingpossibilies instead of lowering the modules? 4)Curse seems to work according to testers. Pilgrim still has Cov-Op, Cyno(lol), TD and a nerfed neut/nos. PPL needing cov up will still use this over Curse. Its not DEAD, nerfed YES, DEAD not. To heavy nerfed perhaps but not DEAD. Just pointing out why DEVs might not be lissening to your points up there... Personal point: I think the DEVs made a smart move and will reap rewards in the future. The change bring some bad dead rats with it. But it fixes loads of other problems connectied with NOS, Amarr ships Cap are safer, Amarr ships are the best suited NEUTwarboats, Droneboats wont be EXTREEMLY hard to fight when they fit neuts instead of NOS. NOS still has GREAT use for anti-neutralizer or sustaining your heavy capusage ship. Some BS need to sacrifice more to fight small ships with neuts instead of NOS (sacrificing CAP and powergrid, instead of gaining cap and sacrificing more cpu). I can go on here... /rant Let me assure you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, with these changes, the Pilgrim needs to be taken off life support and gently put out to the pasture. Its entire teir-2 bonus is now worthless, and along with it, any chance of holding even a modest tank. It's like a puppy that just got hit by a car, has three legs broken, internal bleeding, and is whimpering and squirming around a table, begging to be put down. It's sad.

William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:34:00 - [1061] sorry about double post: before their weapons start having any real effect on the enemy, so even though nos's don't have any drawback in stats it has ALOT of drawbacks in real use: Fighting in a BS for 20 minutes is asking to get wtfbbq'd by a gang You gotta take ALOT of dps for a long time, nos helps with this of course. Not useful in gangs, people will die before they run out of cap and nosboats have no use in gangs and every time they try to go at someone solo it's a very real risk of getting ganked they're taking. This is all fine, you get drawbacks and you get good things with nos like with anything else. Drawback is it takes a long time to kill anything if you can even take it out, and it's easy to get ganked. Good thing is you can support a nice active tank and absorb a decent amount of damage for a while. gunships might not have as nice tanks, but they can toast most other ships very quickly and fights will be over in 1-2 minutes mostly. Both mods take almost the same pg, so it is balanced. Nos can beat guns, guns can beat nos. It comes down to the individual setup and skills of the pilot and that is what EVE is about, player skill and intellegence. Not "fair fights" and sp amount. PvP is tough, learn to deal with it. And another thing is I don't see why people whine so much, EVE is so much about ganking these days nos doesn't really play a major part of engagements anyway. Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:37:00 - [1062] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Originally by: Fager The problem is NOS was the only WPN system giving 2 effects for 1 drawback. This made it too useful and needed a nerf. NEUT are balanced in gain vs loss compared to most other wpn systems. In similar matter Damps are the only EW giving 2pros althou it has 2 drawbacks. Its countermeasure also has 2pros vs 2drawbacks, so its debatable if its unbalanced or not. Its a fact that only the EW of damps are usuable on non EWAR ships... Its abit unbalanced compared to other EW and i suspect a nerf there to in the future to balance them. this is for another thread thou. PPL are _not_ whining couse they dont know how to beat the modules. PPL are whining couse they are unbalanced vs other wpn systems. PPL want balance! When some say whiners want a carebare land couse they made CCP nerf their favorite PWNship-of-the-day id say its those ppl who are the ppl destroying the game couse they want their super no-brainer modules... NOS should have never been considered a weapon system like others and imo there was never anything wrong with it. It gives 2 benefits and this is wrong, why? It gives them to everyone - everyone can put on a NOS, every ship of every bloody size with any slot. People don't like it because they don't want to play with it but are tired of being decimated by NOS ships and the reason this happens is because they don't want to change their setups to deal with those realities. There is NO rule in EVE that everything must work like everything else. Step outside of the box, just because the dev is stuck there doesn't mean you have to repeat it. Yes it has 2 benefits, and everyone has access to them - yes the damps have 2 benefits and everyone can fit them which is equal and balanced. And once again, most of the thought through post here are not people upset over change its people upset what it is being changed to over all the other much better proposals. sigh you missed my point entirely. Ofcourse NOS is balanced against itself, as is damps. How can i think outside of the box when the no-brainer says fit NOS or die? If you dont want to balance NOS to wpn system, how about balance them to Neutralizers? NOS is not BALANCED to other systems, its balanced to itself meaning to fight the system you fit one yourself.. great out of the box system here. Same arguments for the Damps, is balanced to itself... but do you see standard ships sometimes fitting some ECM instead of some Damps? There are balance problems here aswell. We wont systems to be different, but if NOS is stornger then all other alternatives it goes against the out-of-box thinking. And yes there are ways to fight nos, that is using nos or boosters wich most ships can use, and damps (gasp). Its a too powerful system, this change will make it used on some ships, neutralizers on others depending on type, goal and such the pilot wants. This promotes out of the box thinking. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:41:00 - [1063] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Hammar Wolf Reiterating some points from discussion that I think should be emphasized to the Devs. 1.) Current Khanid changes do not function without changes to HAMs - almost everyone has agreed on that and these should be implemented simultaneously (range and damage) 2.) Khanid ships are not meant to be caldari ships with armor tanks, but should be viable and as good as in their own role. Currently it seems they are definitely different but not as viable meaning a sensible person would just fly caldari (bonuses should be rethought and made more applicable to other missile types) 3.) The Neuts need reworking if this NOS change is to be implemented (fitting requirements, duration). 4.) The Curse and the Pilgrim require serious attention. Namely the Pilgrim, which is now dead - I mean dead dead not "I think with enough cross-wiring it still works." Nobody here has yet tried to claim that the Pilgrim should not be self-destructed (including the Dev himself) Personal points: the Dev's will regret this approach to the NOS change and I think its going to yield many negative consequences worse than the current situation. 1)HAMs range is fine, dunno about dmg vs ordinary Heavies.HAMs suck on caldari slowboats, they will ROCKnROLL on the new sacrilage. 2)Most caldarians on these boards are debating on fittings for the sacrilage andplanning on training amarr cruiser 5. You amarrians can take our cerberus if ya want, just hand over those sacrilages! Domination will now be the most heavies tanker of the fleetcommand ships. Not all about this is bad. Not to add that Domination gives Armor bonuses wich is the preffered PvP Tankversion. 3)CCP has stated they are looking into this. Perhaps ships made for these modules need some more fittingpossibilies instead of lowering the modules? 4)Curse seems to work according to testers. Pilgrim still has Cov-Op, Cyno(lol), TD and a nerfed neut/nos. PPL needing cov up will still use this over Curse. Its not DEAD, nerfed YES, DEAD not. To heavy nerfed perhaps but not DEAD. /rant Fager you are one of a very few people that think there is anything fine about HAMs, even the DEVs have admitted they may need work and frankly I don't think most of us care what caldarians think of the new Amarr ships... The pilgrim is totally and completely dead period please stop commenting otherwise you clearly have never flown the ship (thanks for reminding us it has a cyno function and a cloaking device so according to you that makes it still viable)
Swifhizldizl	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:45:00 - [1064] NOS changes... I dunno, think there are way better solutions to this "problem" than this. As stated by others, what about the pilgrim/curse/bhaalgorne now? Shouldn't they negate the nerf atleast a little, just like ECM boats did back in the ECM nerf? Khanid changes... Think the "idea" is good, but for the love of god, why would you gimp the damnation like that? Removing a huge chunk of PG!? You know how much PG gang mods take to fit right!? And the HAM only bonus!? no no no nononononon no! Please reconsidder the khanid changes. Leave the Damnation's PG, and let the bonus be a general missile bonus, not just HAMs.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:47:00 - [1065] Originally by: William DeMeo No. Fact of the matter is that though you do get a little cap from a nos the damage it does is VERY low in comparison to other weapons. It takes several minutes before the nos's start having some real effect and many battles can take up to 10-20 minutes if you're in a nos ship, nos is not a no brainer module just as little as a gun is a no brainer module. With guns you can put out 1000+ dps np, enough to break most tanks fairly quickly. So the nos ship has gotta tank those 1000 dps for maybe 5 minutes It takes several minutes to empty a enemies BS sized ship that is not using Cap on wpns and refuses to hit any sort of tank that your dmg forces him to use. If your tanking and getting heavy nossed you renemie will tank better and you alot worse. A nos with twice drain amount but not deleting cap from its target(rewersed Neut with 1 drawback only) would be more balanced, since it would strengthen your cap but hurt your capabilities to break your enemies. Heck a Neutralizer using no Cap is more balanced then current NOS. Dual Pros of a wpn system with only 1 drawback is not balanced. And NOS is more of a no-brainer then a Gun. Guns has lots of other stuff to them: Ammo type, range, tracking and so on. NOS has Range... all you have to really think about using one. Rest is win-win compared to other wpn system. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:52:00 - [1066] Originally by: Bentula My point is nothing ccp did with this patch affected this. The curse is not any worse in large gangs just cause the nos dont work the same way any more. And my point is that the curse previously balanced its weaker performance in bigger gangs by an increased performance for solo work. Its performance in gangs was no changed much, but it was significantly decreased for 1v1. Drawback = same, advantage = reduced. To repeat my question, what balances the reduced efficiency of the curse in larger gangs if not its increased 1v1 performance? Quote: And i think you severly underestimate the power of neuts on a curse. A single neut on curse will drain 30cap/s for a drain of 9.4 cap/s. Which is almost the complete natural caprecharge of a curse. Which it won't be able to use to fuel them because it needs them to maintain EW and scram. With maxxed skills everywhere those need 80% of your natural peak cap recharge. This means if you go only slightly below 30% cap your own scram and EW will drain you. And if your target has not more cap than you you cannot regain that cap. Basically, 1v1 the curse has to relay on its cap reserves between 30-100% cap. With max skills and a MWD fitted this means it can disable around 2600 cap with that. Which is OK for cruisers, but frankly you do not need a curse for that. A BC will be after that still at around 30% cap, nevermind battleships.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:52:00 - [1067] Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 14:53:05 No what you don't realise is, neuts will NOT be balanced. It drains you as much as your enemy and if you had actually flown a nos ship ever you would realise that it won't work. That's like using 2000 pg to nerf your own cap while your enemy can still deal just as much damage and you both get as drained. Neutralizers are never used because they are complete and utter bull**. My point is, damn guys. The game is fine, fix the lag and desynchs instead of this **. Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:54:00 - [1068] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Originally by: Fager Originally by: Hammar Wolf Reiterating some points from discussion that I think should be emphasized to the Devs. 1.) Current Khanid changes do not function without changes to HAMs - almost everyone has agreed on that and these should be implemented simultaneously (range and damage) 2.) Khanid ships are not meant to be caldari ships with armor tanks, but should be viable and as good as in their own role. Currently it seems they are definitely different but not as viable meaning a sensible person would just fly caldari (bonuses should be rethought and made more applicable to other missile types) 3.) The Neuts need reworking if this NOS change is to be implemented (fitting requirements, duration). 4.) The Curse and the Pilgrim require serious attention. Namely the Pilgrim, which is now dead - I mean dead dead not "I think with enough cross-wiring it still works." Nobody here has yet tried to claim that the Pilgrim should not be self-destructed (including the Dev himself) Personal points: the Dev's will regret this approach to the NOS change and I think its going to yield many negative consequences worse than the current situation. 1)HAMs range is fine, dunno about dmg vs ordinary Heavies.HAMs suck on caldari slowboats, they will ROCKnROLL on the new sacrilage. 2)Most caldarians on these boards are debating on fittings for the sacrilage andplanning on training amarr cruiser 5. You amarrians can take our cerberus if ya want, just hand over those sacrilages! Domination will now be the most heavies tanker of the fleetcommand ships. Not all about this is bad. Not to add that Domination gives Armor bonuses wich is the preffered PvP Tankversion. 3)CCP has stated they are looking into this. Perhaps ships made for these modules need some more fittingpossibilies instead of lowering the modules? 4)Curse seems to work according to testers. Pilgrim still has Cov-Op, Cyno(lol), TD and a nerfed neut/nos. PPL needing cov up will still use this over Curse. Its not DEAD, nerfed YES, DEAD not. To heavy nerfed perhaps but not DEAD. /rant Fager you are one of a very few people that think there is anything fine about HAMs, even the DEVs have admitted they may need work and frankly I don't think most of us care what caldarians think of the new Amarr ships... The pilgrim is totally and completely dead period please stop commenting otherwise you clearly have never flown the ship (thanks for reminding us it has a cyno function and a cloaking device so according to you that makes it still viable) As ive said in many other post i agree the pilgrim might have gotten a to short stick in this draw. I dont agree that a CovOp ship with lowered combat abilities is useless no. But its true that pilgrim EW is subpar to other EW system if the CAPwarfare has infact become useless for it in Group-combat. Repeating myself this needs close observation from DEVs!. OBS the (lol) beside Cyno.. its was more of a joke really.. And as MANY other caldarian missile users have POINTED out about HAMs before me, i still agree that HAMs are generally fine. Reason they suck so badly today is couse there are no fast missile ship that can tank closerange today. Sacrilage will change that. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 14:58:00 - [1069] Originally by: Fager sigh you missed my point entirely. Ofcourse NOS is balanced against itself, as is damps. How can i think outside of the box when the no-brainer says fit NOS or die? If you dont want to balance NOS to wpn system, how about balance them to Neutralizers? NOS is not BALANCED to other systems, its balanced to itself meaning to fight the system you fit one yourself.. great out of the box system here. Same arguments for the Damps, is balanced to itself... but do you see standard ships sometimes fitting some ECM instead of some Damps? There are balance problems here aswell. We wont systems to be different, but if NOS is stornger then all other alternatives it goes against the out-of-box thinking. And yes there are ways to fight nos, that is using nos or boosters wich most ships can use, and damps (gasp). Its a too powerful system, this change will make it used on some ships, neutralizers on others depending on type, goal and such the pilot wants. This promotes out of the box thinking. Don't think I did, and nothing I said implied you must use NOS to beat NOS - I never have and its a dumb notion. What is this really about? 1 NOS has never decided a battle and all NOS ships can be beaten by other setups that dont involve using any NOS yourself. Yes NOS was a no-brainer system but frankly so is the NEUT it just involves managing your cap which is what you are doing the entire time anyway. I have always thought that NOS should involve a stacking penalty, or be limited in how many ships can fit which was the obvious and simple way of dealing with it. NOS is not stronger and all the domi pilots on here are explaining that its not better than a full gunboat and involves serious tradeoffs. Its not the NOS that takes skill to use its the drones. Passive tanks, missile boats, jammers and other ships have found clear ways of nullifying all NOS setups.
Falun Assad Caldari New Career Move Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:00:00 - [1070] Edited by: Falun Assad on 02/08/2007 15:03:40 Originally by: CCP Fendahl This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Please reread one of the made proposals: Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.47.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s So we result in one NOS behaiving exactly the same as before, adding a second gives a severe stacking penalty, but its good enough to halt the majority of regen, while giving the nosser a nice cap boost to sustain tank and whatnot, adding a third nos onto one target is pretty fruitless. In terms of big NOS vs Small ships, you're only taking the cap regenerated and not the reserves, so a small ship can't be zapped in one or two cycles of a nos. Issues* Small ships vs Big ships will need some sort of limit on how much energy NOS can steal, because if Small NOS take 40% of a Battleships regen then thats a huge amount of cap. But I dont think you can say small nos only takes 10% because then thats useless against other frigs. In order to fix this problem we simply take the transfer amount from before and use that as a MAX Cap/s transfer figure. In this way Frigates using Small Nosferatu I can only take a maximum of 2.6 Cap/s, no matter what ship they attack. What if the mega is on 100% cap? I get 40% of 0 regen! Fit a neut/make him activate some mods, pull his cap down until you think it is around 30% and then switch to nos, thus adding a tactical element to Neut/NOS combo's. Ideally you want to get someone at 30% with your nos because this is where maximum regen is achieved. EDIT: Made a big mistake on my maths - fixed. EDIT: Added some more of that maths stuff. EDIT: Added answers to possible issues, formatting. With this mechanic Neuts are clearly seperated from Noses. Ships wont get zapped aka insta drained. Having a big capacitor gives you more time before suffering from the Noses effects. The Nos is still effective for leeching, although it can be debated if there should be a stacking penalty. Additionally this change allows you to stay alive for a very long time although being nossed by using a cap booster. So, why dont you try this one?

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:01:00 - [1071] Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 14:53:05 No what you don't realise is, neuts will NOT be balanced. It drains you as much as your enemy and if you had actually flown a nos ship ever you would realise that it won't work. That's like using 2000 pg to nerf your own cap while your enemy can still deal just as much damage and you both get as drained. Neutralizers are never used because they are complete and utter bull**. My point is, damn guys. The game is fine, fix the lag and desynchs instead of this **. Neutralizers drains your enemies more then you. And if ppl will use NOS and Neutralizers somewhat equially much then id say they are balanced. And as ive prevously said CAPwarfare boats(bloodraiders/Amarr recons mainly) might need looking into with fittings for Neutralizers or maybe neutralizers needs lowered fittings. CCP has also said they will look into this to balance it. I do NOT consider droneboats CAPwarfare specialists. Droneboats will sacrifice cap for either DMG or CAPwarfare. Or improve your cap hungry uber tank with the easier fitted NOS. NOSdomi PPL have already stated the NEUTdomis are possible. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:03:00 - [1072] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Fager you are one of a very few people that think there is anything fine about HAMs, even the DEVs have admitted they may need work and frankly I don't think most of us care what caldarians think of the new Amarr ships... The pilgrim is totally and completely dead period please stop commenting otherwise you clearly have never flown the ship (thanks for reminding us it has a cyno function and a cloaking device so according to you that makes it still viable) Lows: Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Meds: Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I Faint Warp Prohibitor I Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Highs: Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Rigs: Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I There you go, a pretty effective Pilgrim setup against turret ships. Can tank 276 DPS and if CCP is right about increasing its PG then you'll be able to replace that SAR II with another MAR II for even more tank. Can permarun everything except the AB whille the Cap 800 last. Its neuts alone drain 60en/s. I agreed with you that Pilgrim is nerfed with this patch, but it still is a pretty effective platform for its MAIN EW armament: cap warfare with TDs.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:04:00 - [1073] The Damnation needs more CPU. A passive fitting is about 75cpu short, an active fitting is also 75cpu short. The Grid is okay for a Passive one, but please look at the CPU it does not add up. DAMNATION +60CPU ! Do it please! I can fit all command ships no problem with perfect tanks and lacking damage (except eos it has more damage lol) but the Damnation is just GIMPED. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:07:00 - [1074] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 02/08/2007 14:54:54 Originally by: Bentula My point is nothing ccp did with this patch affected this. The curse is not any worse in large gangs just cause the nos dont work the same way any more. And my point is that the curse previously balanced its weaker performance in bigger gangs by an increased performance for solo work. Its performance in gangs was no changed much, but it was significantly decreased for 1v1. Drawback = same, advantage = reduced. To repeat my question, what balances the reduced efficiency of the curse in larger gangs if not its increased 1v1 performance? Quote: And i think you severly underestimate the power of neuts on a curse. A single neut on curse will drain 30cap/s for a drain of 9.4 cap/s. Which is almost the complete natural caprecharge of a curse. Which it won't be able to use to fuel them because it needs them to maintain EW and scram. With maxxed skills everywhere those need 80% of your natural peak cap recharge. This means if you go only slightly below 30% cap your own scram and EW will drain you. And if your target has not more cap than you you cannot regain that cap. Basically, 1v1 the curse has to rely on its cap reserves between 30-100% cap. With max skills and a MWD fitted this means it can disable around 2600 cap with that. Which is OK for cruisers, but frankly you do not need a curse for that. A huggin can do the same thing, and better since it can web & damp its target. A BC will be after that still at around 30% cap, nevermind battleships. These are actually some valid points imo. If curse soloability is so hurt it aint better then other force recons, and its gangability is sub par.. its not very balanced. This problem might be more becouse of TD efficiency vs especially Damps and also ECM, I dont realyl know how good TDs are in big gang combat. PPL on test server have confirmed the curse to still be very deadly in solo pvp against even the larger ships thou... It might not be 100% win anymore but it sounds like it still smacks the other recons in soloability. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Shannaria Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:15:00 - [1075] A lot of negativity here, but I would imagine there's a silent group of people (myself included) who think the changes are great but just don't feel the need to post here. That being said... I'm going to post here. Nos/Neut. I love it. Neutralizers should be the "thing to be feared". And if you have a module that is feared it should have some downside.. that being a charge to cap. I'm not quite sure if the Nos mechanics are exactly what I had in mind, but, they will work, I think. My biggest complaints were fitting requirements and activation durations and the latest update seems to alleviate most of those concerns. Khanid changes are just what the doctor ordered. Yes. For those hardcore lazOrs users, it's going to take some time to get setup with the changes, but I think in the end it'll be all good. As most have said, all the other races really require two sets of skill trainings for full racial effectiveness anyways (some more: Minmatar). Again. My concerns are over the Damnation with the new change. But I believe that'll be eliminated with a HAM re-vamp. PLEASE, though, PLEASE don't take long in that revamp. HAMS are a neat system (I'd love to see a nice HAM Cerberus setup or HAM supplements to minny ships) that is woefully underused due to them not quite being up to snuff range/speed/fitting-wise. If you are going to tweak them, please do it soon. PLEASE! I'm interested to see how it all plays out, but I like the changes so far.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:16:00 - [1076] Edited by: Hammar Wolf on 02/08/2007 15:20:00 Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Hammar Wolf Fager you are one of a very few people that think there is anything fine about HAMs, even the DEVs have admitted they may need work and frankly I don't think most of us care what caldarians think of the new Amarr ships... The pilgrim is totally and completely dead period please stop commenting otherwise you clearly have never flown the ship (thanks for reminding us it has a cyno function and a cloaking device so according to you that makes it still viable) Lows: Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Meds: Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I Faint Warp Prohibitor I Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Highs: Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Rigs: Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I There you go, a pretty effective Pilgrim setup against turret ships. Can tank 276 DPS and if CCP is right about increasing its PG then you'll be able to replace that SAR II with another MAR II for even more tank. Can permarun everything except the AB whille the Cap 800 last. Its neuts alone drain 60en/s. I agreed with you that Pilgrim is nerfed with this patch, but it still is a pretty effective platform for its MAIN EW armament: cap warfare with TDs. No bloody way. For one you are resolving the complete NOS nerf by using a cap booster on the one ship that was not supposed to fit it, but fine lets use the mid slot for that. Then you are using up another mid slot for the AB to compensate for putting in 2 auxiliary nano pumps, which I think have little place on a pilgrim since a well armored pilgrim with good resistance could easily tank with 1 armor rep and none of those rigs before. Essentially it is a cap warfare ship that has been nerfed into the most standard double-armor rep/cap booster ship there is and we all know it wont win the cap booster war. It is neither an effective EW ship in this circumstance nor can it survive as the drones of most ships will wear you down alone - especially once those cap charges are gone. Truth be told the Pilgrim was good because it was able to take on gunboats and missile boats and it could kill solo. Now it can hold only against gunboats with crap for drones, not at all against missile boats and will doubtfully kill anything solo since I anticipate the new BS to have heavy NEUT themselves. I personally applaud the effort to turn the pilgrim into something like a double armor rep myrmidon but we both know what will happen to it when it hits a missile boat or anything else with a cap booster setup. The whole point of the ship was cap warfare without cap boosters - it was one of 2 ships in the game made with this idea in mind...as I said it is dead and thank god I own gallente ships. Also, if you can't sustain the current setup with cap booster 800s how will it ever manage with 2 medium reps? sorry for the rant
Fesch Fleisch	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:22:00 - [1077] These Khanid changes have to be a joke. I should say that I am a pure Minmatar pilot and have never flown another races ship, short of a shuttle =). However, I would be bloody .. peeved .. if anyone removed even one turret hardpoint from any of my ships so I feel for those amarr pilots. Also, one of the draws to amarr is just the sheer aesthetics of lasers and the fact that they don't use up ammo. Also 5 missile HPs on a Damnation? The guy I knew who flew one fit 4 lasers and 3 gang assist mods .. since it is the '3 gang assist mod ship' if you want people to be able to use this 'boost' give it another highslot. Nerf Amarr!
Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:25:00 - [1078] Originally by: Goumindog how can you justifiy the Eos, Myrmidon, and dominix getting not only the full rack of weapons on top, but also an extra mid/low slot compare with its competitors (and the Sacri not)? This. Very much so. HAM need tweakage at the same time. It really can't wait. 1) Because missiles need time to accelerate, at full skills HAM range isn't 15km. It's more like 13. With MAX skills. Thats a bit too short. Please increase HAM range to roughly 18km so that with acceleration it will realistically be 16km with MAX skills. This is more reasonable. 2)HAM's are too slow when compared to other unguided systems. Please increase speed/decrease flight time so that they can actually hit faster ships. Missile damage formula will decrease damage, but they need to be able to at least hit. Nyxus PS- An extra mid or low will not unbalance the Sac. Another low most certainly will not. An extra turret point up high (inbonused) is such a minor dps boost that it's laughable. If you do keep the high, please make sure the Sac has the fitting to be able to fill it with a nos/neut without completely gimping it's setup. The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:25:00 - [1079] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Don't think I did, and nothing I said implied you must use NOS to beat NOS - I never have and its a dumb notion. What is this really about? 1 NOS has never decided a battle and all NOS ships can be beaten by other setups that dont involve using any NOS yourself. Yes NOS was a no-brainer system but frankly so is the NEUT it just involves managing your cap which is what you are doing the entire time anyway. I have always thought that NOS should involve a stacking penalty, or be limited in how many ships can fit which was the obvious and simple way of dealing with it. NOS is not stronger and all the domi pilots on here are explaining that its not better than a full gunboat and involves serious tradeoffs. Its not the NOS that takes skill to use its the drones. Passive tanks, missile boats, jammers and other ships have found clear ways of nullifying all NOS setups. It seem showever that you agree that NOS needed some kind of nerf thou. The nerf CCP choosed fixed many problems they wanted fixed that a stacking nerf, slot nerf or most others wouldnt have solved. Mainly putting neutralizers on the table, and in a smart move make NOS the Counter measure for them. And most of the bad parts of the nos change are being adressed (Blood raider ships). Pilgrim/Curse might need tweaking also, but as many pilgrim/curse pilot have already pointed out and tested... they are still good. You have to agree to some point that this kind of NERF has its ups also. p.s comparing medslot modules like ECM/damp/boosters wich is made to counter lots of system and has their own countermeasure isnt fair to use as a point to justifie the power of NOS really. They counter Neuts and guns just as well. But i do see the point that NOS was all that i-win button. But it still needs to be somewhat balanced to its cousin systems (mainly the neutralizer) like i think guns/missiles should be balanced to eachother with drawbacks and uses. Like EWAR modules should be balanced in use to eachother. Hope you see the point im trying to make. Ofcourse they could have booste neutralizers instead also like taking away its cap use or something ;) would make it another option to NOS and usable against NOS. /rant "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:28:00 - [1080] Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 14:53:05 No what you don't realise is, neuts will NOT be balanced. It drains you as much as your enemy and if you had actually flown a nos ship ever you would realise that it won't work. That's like using 2000 pg to nerf your own cap while your enemy can still deal just as much damage and you both get as drained. Neutralizers are never used because they are complete and utter bull**. My point is, damn guys. The game is fine, fix the lag and desynchs instead of this . Neutralizers drains your enemies more then you. And if ppl will use NOS and Neutralizers somewhat equially much then id say they are balanced. And as ive prevously said CAPwarfare boats(bloodraiders/Amarr recons mainly) might need looking into with fittings for Neutralizers or maybe neutralizers needs lowered fittings. CCP has also said they will look into this to balance it. I do NOT consider droneboats CAPwarfare specialists. Droneboats will sacrifice cap for either DMG or CAPwarfare. Or improve your cap hungry uber tank with the easier fitted NOS. NOSdomi PPL have already stated the NEUTdomis are possible. Neutdomi's are not possible and it's obvious you haven't flown one. How will you set it up? Cargo expanders and dual cap injectors or what? It'll suck cuz neuts take away like 5% less cap from you then from your enemy and at the same time nerfs a slot you can have dps in. Fly nosboats before you tell people how easy it'll be to refit them with energy neuts. Might be a slim chance the curse can be "somewhat" effective with 1 neut, but fact remains it's an insanely stupid and heavy nerf to an entire class of ships and a fighting style and CCP should get their act together and stop listening to whiny carebears that can't fight for **. - Will Yarr

Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:43:00 - [1081] Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:43:07 Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 14:53:05 No what you don't realise is, neuts will NOT be balanced. It drains you as much as your enemy and if you had actually flown a nos ship ever you would realise that it won't work. That's like using 2000 pg to nerf your own cap while your enemy can still deal just as much damage and you both get as drained. Neutralizers are never used because they are complete and utter bull**. My point is, damn guys. The game is fine, fix the lag and desynchs instead of this . Neutralizers drains your enemies more then you. And if ppl will use NOS and Neutralizers somewhat equially much then id say they are balanced. And as ive prevously said CAPwarfare boats(bloodraiders/Amarr recons mainly) might need looking into with fittings for Neutralizers or maybe neutralizers needs lowered fittings. CCP has also said they will look into this to balance it. I do NOT consider droneboats CAPwarfare specialists. Droneboats will sacrifice cap for either DMG or CAPwarfare. Or improve your cap hungry uber tank with the easier fitted NOS. NOSdomi PPL have already stated the NEUTdomis are possible. Neutdomi's are not possible and it's obvious you haven't flown one. How will you set it up? Cargo expanders and dual cap injectors or what? It'll suck cuz neuts take away like 5% less cap from you then from your enemy and at the same time nerfs a slot you can have dps in. Fly nosboats before you tell people how easy it'll be to refit them with energy neuts. Might be a slim chance the curse can be "somewhat" effective with 1 neut, but fact remains it's an insanely stupid and heavy nerf to an entire class of ships and a fighting style and CCP should get their act together and stop listening to whiny carebears that can't fight for **. The fact there are "nosboats" should be a huge sign that something is wrong... a module that isn't a weapon as has no downsides whatsoever being used to replace slots on a ship with weapon bonuses is certainly "odd" if nothing else. As far as a NeutDomi not being possible, perhaps the idea that a Domi sitting with a full cap or running dual reps continuously while it trains 6x NOS on a ship and keeping it at zero cap is the problem in itself. Once you let go of that idea, it makes a lot of sense that destroying someone else's cap should not come for free... much less destroying someone else's cap and improving your own at the same time. Why not make blasters add 10 cap every time you fired them? The first step to relieving the addiction of afk pvp is to realize that the NOS changes are mostly just making you sit at the keyboard to pvp. You have to watch your cap a little more, use modules in highs other than NOS, and actually think a little bit. It's actually a fairly interesting solution... it really does touch every problem of NOS while not leaving any out... small ships aren't instantly neutralized by NOS while leaving large ships completely vulnerable (the sig radius solution has this problem). The 'dedicated slots' solution doesn't fix the fact that many ships fit a single NOS just for free small ship neutralization (a heavy NOS will still render that interceptor useless). The stacking penalty doesn't either (a single heavy NOS will still zap that interceptor). That being said, the Pilgrim is rather severely hit but the dev post said they would look at it. A Pilgrim 'fix' along with the faction ships fix (add neut bonus) should clear out most problems. The real downside is that all the folks who lose their afk pvp ships have to L2P again and they're upset.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:44:00 - [1082] Originally by: William DeMeo Neutdomi's are not possible and it's obvious you haven't flown one. How will you set it up? Cargo expanders and dual cap injectors or what? It'll suck cuz neuts take away like 5% less cap from you then from your enemy and at the same time nerfs a slot you can have dps in. Fly nosboats before you tell people how easy it'll be to refit them with energy neuts. Might be a slim chance the curse can be "somewhat" effective with 1 neut, but fact remains it's an insanely stupid and heavy nerf to an entire class of ships and a fighting style and CCP should get their act together and stop listening to whiny carebears that can't fight for ****. - Will You mean that now you have to actually manage your cap usage to keep the neuts and tank working in a NeutDomi, instead of "activate nos, activate tank, put drones on target, go grab lunch"? Seems like a positive fix to me...
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:48:00 - [1083] Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong. That being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim).
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:54:00 - [1084] Originally by: PhantomVyper The Cerberus is a close range ship??!?!?!? I don't understand much about Caldari boats but I always thought that "10% to missile velocity", "10% to missile flight time" meant that maybe they are expected to use the missiles from a longer range?! Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... Insofar as Missiles have a flight time so their damage is reduced at long range and your target will invarably warp out before the missiles arrive. It's the age old problem - as a long range weapon, Missiles just fall a long way behind turrets therefore if you want to use a long range Caldari HAC, you're going to use an Eagle, not a Cerberus. Make sense? Make a Difference
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 15:56:00 - [1085] Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 14:53:05 No what you don't realise is, neuts will NOT be balanced. It drains you as much as your enemy and if you had actually flown a nos ship ever you would realise that it won't work. That's like using 2000 pg to nerf your own cap while your enemy can still deal just as much damage and you both get as drained. Neutralizers are never used because they are complete and utter bull**. My point is, damn guys. The game is fine, fix the lag and desynchs instead of this . Neutralizers drains your enemies more then you. And if ppl will use NOS and Neutralizers somewhat equially much then id say they are balanced. And as ive prevously said CAPwarfare boats(bloodraiders/Amarr recons mainly) might need looking into with fittings for Neutralizers or maybe neutralizers needs lowered fittings. CCP has also said they will look into this to balance it. I do NOT consider droneboats CAPwarfare specialists. Droneboats will sacrifice cap for either DMG or CAPwarfare. Or improve your cap hungry uber tank with the easier fitted NOS. NOSdomi PPL have already stated the NEUTdomis are possible. Neutdomi's are not possible and it's obvious you haven't flown one. How will you set it up? Cargo expanders and dual cap injectors or what? It'll suck cuz neuts take away like 5% less cap from you then from your enemy and at the same time nerfs a slot you can have dps in. Fly nosboats before you tell people how easy it'll be to refit them with energy neuts. Might be a slim chance the curse can be "somewhat" effective with 1 neut, but fact remains it's an insanely stupid and heavy nerf to an entire class of ships and a fighting style and CCP should get their act together and stop listening to whiny carebears that can't fight for **. - Will Domixes are not CAPwarfare dedicated boats, as such a full rack of NOS/neuts shouldnt be more effective then full rack of Guns wich it has bonus to or a MIX. Perhaps using some NOS to strenghten Tank and get Anti neutralizer and fit some guns on your domi now? I dunno. Promotes out-of-the-box-thinking really... Im no domi expert but seeing as they prefer a nonbonused full rack of NOS instead of some guns wich they got bonus to makes me wonder... CAPwarfare dedicated ships should and some already have been cleared for a go get boosts. Curse/pilgrim + bloodraider ships are the ones getting a shaft here. Not full racks of NOS on Dominixes. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:00:00 - [1086] Originally by: PhantomVyper There you go, a pretty effective Pilgrim setup against turret ships. Can tank 276 DPS and if CCP is right about increasing its PG then you'll be able to replace that SAR II with another MAR II for even more tank. And it will die vs everything which either has a web or a MWD because it will simply fly out of its nos/neut range. Originally by: Fager PPL on test server have confirmed the curse to still be very deadly in solo pvp against even the larger ships thou... It might not be 100% win anymore but it sounds like it still smacks the other recons in soloability. It depends. The only positive report which I have seen regarding that was one of a curse pilot with a talisman set vs 2 targets. Firstly, well..faction implants give you obviously quite an edge. Secondly, those mechanics are very different vs multiple targets since you can nos one to neut nother.
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:03:00 - [1087] Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong. That being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim). In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets. Also, since it was not a racial weapon properly speaking, efficient NOS setups also originated in other races like Gallente and Minmatar. This gave the possibility to use NOS or not, according to your own philosophy and class of targets. Does the community not realize that after each successive nerf, we are going each time closer towards a framework were ships will be able to use modules efficiently only as long the ship has apposite bonuses for the module in question ? I like surprise and variability, and when I loose a ship to someone who used a setup I couldn suspect, I'm happy because I learned something. Those who are advocating for nerfs are simply putting the game on a track were ship setups will become static designs according to the race, ship class and age of the player. If that's what you want then I ask myself if half a million years of human evolution to get a brain was worth after all...
Monique Balthur	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:03:00 - [1088] with the nerfage bandwagon I came upon sth liek this: introduce: - insurance for equipment - pvp mode (aka /pvp off, and you cannot be engaged in 0.0) - concord escorts (you can enroll up to 5 concord battleships, more with drone controle units) - ravens should have an auto-iskfarm mode, once activated it would do all those cool things that a capable chinese isk farmer can do NERF PVP, LET US FARM ISK IN PEACE
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:10:00 - [1089] Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong. That being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim). In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets. Also, since it was not a racial weapon properly speaking, efficient NOS setups also originated in other races like Gallente and Minmatar. This gave the possibility to use NOS or not, according to your own philosophy and class of targets. Does the community not realize that after each successive nerf, we are going each time closer towards a framework were ships will be able to use modules efficiently only as long the ship has apposite bonuses for the module in question ? I like surprise and variability, and when I loose a ship to someone who used a setup I couldn suspect, I'm happy because I learned something. Those who are advocating for nerfs are simply putting the game on a track were ship setups will become static designs according to the race, ship class and age of the player. If that's what you want then I ask myself if half a million years of human evolution to get a brain was worth after all... Im gonna resist the temptaion to flame ehre and give it to you straight. NOS can still be used by all races. Will still be good enough to see a heavy use. also where is the suprise and variability when everyone and there mother fits NOS couse there is no other modules in its class that has similar win-win properties? Now your gonna be wondering is that ship fitted with neuts or NOS.. or perhaps fill out slots with 2x wpn systems for extra DPS? The changes will promote what you are wishing for... dont complain. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Crym Synistar	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:18:00 - [1090] I noticed mtalking about it being good that Nos isnt as harsh on frig sized ships. This is a problem if my Bs can't nos a single frig into retreat then there is no longer any fear factor in going up against the BS. Any frig fleet can nullify a BS's targeting by damping/jamming which is the reasoning behind fleet tactics. If one ceptor can now kite a BS without fear of nos then whats the point? So you folks have effectively taken out the NoS platforms and made everyone have to choose damper boats etc. Theres a reason for leaving some things as they are: Amarr basically suck but the Curse and Pilgrim made them worth while. Caldari basically suck but the Drake made it possible to shield tank in pvp. Now they have only pve left to them. Gallente were fine before yet now the cheap NOS Dom platform seem useless. They lacked in dps versus other ships but had a strong tank which is now limited even more. Minmatar has..well they have the Rifter and its AF...Oh wait did they change the cap charge rates on their BC? Anyhoo I spent the last few years training Caldari for nothing...ravens blow arse I much prefer lvl 4's in a Drake. Oh and now my gallente NOS Dom and Amarr recon alt have nothing promising in their future. Guess i'll have to go for Dread...oh wait you nerfed them too...well guess it's time to sit around in a carrier looking stoopid. OMG wait I have an Exhumer...quick get to work nerfing those! while yer at it Nerf POS's and make them easier to run so I can have a bat cave that my uber drake and Dom chasis can lay around collecting space dust. Crym Nerfhater

Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:18:00 - [1091] Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. Cannot begin to explain how much is wrong with that comment, but feel free to read up as it has been done so repeatedly. Being an Amarr recon pilot I will take the insult as intended - yes it was very easy to become good in the pilgrim and the curse and they are total afk solo boats. So easy you should do it yourself and check it out before speaking on this topic again because you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to fly amarr and to kill a BS with an Amarr recon - those who can do it deserve it.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:26:00 - [1092] Originally by: John McCreedy Insofar as Missiles have a flight time so their damage is reduced at long range and your target will invarably warp out before the missiles arrive. It's the age old problem - as a long range weapon, Missiles just fall a long way behind turrets therefore if you want to use a long range Caldari HAC, you're going to use an Eagle, not a Cerberus. Make sense? Its the same thing with long range turret ships, yes the damage is instant but unless you insta-pop them, chances are they will warp away before you get the chance to shoot again. Also Caldari have always sufered from a lack of solo-PVP ability, but seems to me that a Cerb can be quite effective as a med-long range ship if used with a dedicated tackler. That beeing said, I've seen some nano-damp Cerb who where pretty good in small gang warfare.
Crym Synistar	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:26:00 - [1093] Originally by: Monique Balthur with the nerfage bandwagon I came upon sth liek this: introduce: - insurance for equipment - pvp mode (aka /pvp off, and you cannot be engaged in 0.0) - concord escorts (you can enroll up to 5 concord battleships, more with drone controle units) - ravens should have an auto-iskfarm mode, once activated it would do all those cool things that a capable chinese isk farmer can do NERF PVP, LET US FARM ISK IN PEACE If CCCP even attempts to use anything like suck SWG's /pvp off crap ima set nukes off in Jita Daily till i run outta money and then ima burn the hard drive my character is on and never pay another cent to anything resembling that company. As for insurance in general its pretty screwy...ceptors give you a teeny %'age payback on a huge investment...not to mention the millions of ISK spent on equipment to gear any ship. Killboards are able to tally equipment and give (yes a screwy estimate) estimate of the amount of ISK lost. How about at least work something out with smaller ships insurances. I know it would be hard to get an accurate equipment tally due to peeps fitting faction gear then plopping in civi mods and having a friend popping them, but at least estimate a general fitting cost fopr a ship and add that as an optional buy in to go along with platinum coverage. Crym Nerfhater
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:28:00 - [1094] Originally by: Crym Synistar Anyhoo I spent the last few years training Caldari for nothing...ravens blow arse I much prefer lvl 4's in a Drake. Oh and now my gallente NOS Dom and Amarr recon alt have nothing promising in their future. Guess i'll have to go for Dread...oh wait you nerfed them too...well guess it's time to sit around in a carrier looking stoopid. OMG wait I have an Exhumer...quick get to work nerfing those! while yer at it Nerf POS's and make them easier to run so I can have a bat cave that my uber drake and Dom chasis can lay around collecting space dust. Crym Nerfhater So what you are admiting to is that you train specific chars to use the fotm ship and then get mad when those ships get nerfed?!?
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:29:00 - [1095] Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:29:42 Originally by: Fager Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong. That being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim). In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets. Also, since it was not a racial weapon properly speaking, efficient NOS setups also originated in other races like Gallente and Minmatar. This gave the possibility to use NOS or not, according to your own philosophy and class of targets. Does the community not realize that after each successive nerf, we are going each time closer towards a framework were ships will be able to use modules efficiently only as long the ship has apposite bonuses for the module in question ? I like surprise and variability, and when I loose a ship to someone who used a setup I couldn suspect, I'm happy because I learned something. Those who are advocating for nerfs are simply putting the game on a track were ship setups will become static designs according to the race, ship class and age of the player. If that's what you want then I ask myself if half a million years of human evolution to get a brain was worth after all... Im gonna resist the temptaion to flame ehre and give it to you straight. NOS can still be used by all races. Will still be good enough to see a heavy use. also where is the suprise and variability when everyone and there mother fits NOS couse there is no other modules in its class that has similar win-win properties? Now your gonna be wondering is that ship fitted with neuts or NOS.. or perhaps fill out slots with 2x wpn systems for extra DPS? The changes will promote what you are wishing for... dont complain. Flame all you want nublet. A lot of PvP'ers use cap injectors rather than massive NOS'es, because except for the Curse and a NOSDomi, the NOSboat will not withstand the DPS of a gank setup long enough for its draining capacity to make the difference, specially when facing passive tanks. You seem to belong to the same class of people who say that tackling was impossible due to hvy NOS. Well I tackle all the time because a True Sansha, Dark Blood or Domination disruptor puts you out of hvy NOS range. Now if you can't even invest 80 mil on a module which allows you to play the way you want, this tells volumes about your overall ingame performance.
Valadeya uthanaras	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:32:00 - [1096] Finally a response from a dev, I really want to thank you to have taken the time to read and post your view. Needless to say , I think you are really courageous, cause you are still inviting people to give idea, while lot already called for artillery support..... BAck on the topic, NOS change: thinking about it carefully there is many ways to "balance" the change for the 2 ships so many people here, including myself, without redesigning the entire "nos change". Proposition 1: I think most ppl will agree, and quite simply, the reason why people used nosferatu over energy neutralizer was: 1. No capacitor use for Nosferatu, IT even gave you capacitor, compared to a 10 cap/s used for medium neutralizer(exemple) 2. Much higher fitting requirement for neutralizer(12.5 % increase for PG), while nosferatu already had the above advantage. To remedy to the situation, while keeping the current "NOS-Nerf" design, simply remove the capacitor use of neutralizer. This will clearly make the neutralizer a "offensive" weapon, and nosferatu a defense agaisnt it(If you are neutralized....you have less capacitor) this will allow setup, that while compromising with the higher fitting requirement(really hard to fit, let me tell you), to keep a "offensive" cap-warfare, without completly gimping your own cap (nos/neut combo does not work, sadly...), and , will only involve some small change to keep everyone happy with curse/pilgrim: for curse, give 75 to 125 powergrig for pilgrim, remove all turret slot, add 50 cpu and 75 powergrig, move a low-slot to medium To resume, for the curse most used fitting speed/damp: you will need to remove the Large sheild extender, and add a capacitor booster. IT's a decent balance considering you will kill your target capacitor faster, but it will be able to defend itself with new nos mechanic. Also, it will balance the "sheild extender tank ftw" we had on this one, allowing it to escape situation where it should die, that so many whiner were "upset with" because they are not even slightly creative.... I mean FoF missile for exemple?? is it hard to have a few in cargo For pilgrim, we are gimping the tank ( 1 less low), true, but we are also making it kill the target capacitor faster( neutralizer oriented), allowing a balance with older setup, (+1 mid can add an injecter, leaving it the possibility to tank till it out of charge, while not being able to fit a mwd easely and so on, the small neutralizer range keeping it from playing into the curse territory...hence no turret....dont want twisted pilgrim setup..) and for all other class of ship neutralizer, bot offensive( only mod able to kill cap) and defensive ( big ship against small defense) , huge fitting requirement while compared to nosferatu, 12.5% lower fitting requirement, and best mod to counter a neutralizer(and...slight boost, much needed , to amarr laser boat), because, the one using a neutralizer continuously expose itself to being nossed and we wont have any more monster like the nos domi, killing an other ship cap, while using it to feed its monstruous tank..... 2. For my second option, still cooking the numbers (engineering teached me, that being to quick on evaluating change is never a good idea)so will have to wait a bit for it There is also the talisman implant I am yet to found a solution about it, this change will render them almost useless if it stay like this ( unless they implant my proposition)
Kegstand Mcfarland Caldari Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:36:00 - [1097] And on top of all this the %'age of cap is pretty lame. MY BS cant NOS a Frig lower then 50% if im at 50% cap...yet A. It costs me more to run everything I have. B. My cap at 50% is still thousands more then the frigs. C. I dont ever expect a Mack truck to hit my Yugo less hard just because its unfair that im smaller then it is. If your Frig got popped by my BS due to you being dumb enough to stay close and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can damp then you deserve to die. I am not gonna ask Dev's to nerf Titans AE just cause my frig cant handle the pulse....why should you folks expect a NOS Dom to drain any less just because yer small. They say LARGE Nosferatu for a reason.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:39:00 - [1098] Originally by: Hammar Wolf Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. Cannot begin to explain how much is wrong with that comment, but feel free to read up as it has been done so repeatedly. Being an Amarr recon pilot I will take the insult as intended - yes it was very easy to become good in the pilgrim and the curse and they are total afk solo boats. So easy you should do it yourself and check it out before speaking on this topic again because you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to fly amarr and to kill a BS with an Amarr recon - those who can do it deserve it. You didn't read far enough... I commented specifically on those who have gone pretty far in their training/implantes/etc. to specifically be able to kill battleships. And... I am able to fly Amarr Recons myself (and have a few kills in both the Curse and the Pilgrim, though not solo against a BS).
Crym Synistar	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:45:00 - [1099] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Hammar Wolf Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. Cannot begin to explain how much is wrong with that comment, but feel free to read up as it has been done so repeatedly. Being an Amarr recon pilot I will take the insult as intended - yes it was very easy to become good in the pilgrim and the curse and they are total afk solo boats. So easy you should do it yourself and check it out before speaking on this topic again because you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to fly amarr and to kill a BS with an Amarr recon - those who can do it deserve it. You didn't read far enough... I commented specifically on those who have gone pretty far in their training/implantes/etc. to specifically be able to kill battleships. And... I am able to fly Amarr Recons myself (and have a few kills in both the Curse and the Pilgrim, though not solo against a BS). Any BS that hangs out in deep space when a recon tackler is present deserves to die. Cause even if it is a solo ship...you don't really know that, and there could be 8 others waiting on the oppisite side of a gate. In which case you still deserve to die for sticking around.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:49:00 - [1100] Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets. Ignoring any nerf proposals currently on, or off, the table, isn't this somewhat unbalanced as it is then? If a single module means a 3M SP character is 'balanced' against your 40M SP character, what does that mean when the same module is then also in the hands of the 40M SP player? Plus, doesn't that bother you that a 3M SP character with little experience in the game can make your 40M SP and years of experience pretty much worthless? Wouldn't it also mean that it's much more desirable for anyone to just NOS it up since not only does it balance you at low SP against high SP characters but will continue to 'increase your balance' against everyone more and more? What's the point of training past 3M SP then?

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:49:00 - [1101] Originally by: Kegstand Mcfarland And on top of all this the %'age of cap is pretty lame. MY BS cant NOS a Frig lower then 50% if im at 50% cap...yet A. It costs me more to run everything I have. B. My cap at 50% is still thousands more then the frigs. C. I dont ever expect a Mack truck to hit my Yugo less hard just because its unfair that im smaller then it is. If your Frig got popped by my BS due to you being dumb enough to stay close and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can damp then you deserve to die. I am not gonna ask Dev's to nerf Titans AE just cause my frig cant handle the pulse....why should you folks expect a NOS Dom to drain any less just because yer small. They say LARGE Nosferatu for a reason. Well this is very easy to reverse: If your BS got popped by my frig because you where dumb enough to not fit a tank that can witstand a single frigs DPS and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can kill frigs then you deserve to die...
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:53:00 - [1102] Can i have all my skillpoints that I trained up for using a pilgrim be switched into my raven / producion skills? The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:56:00 - [1103] Originally by: Crym Synistar Any BS that hangs out in deep space when a recon tackler is present deserves to die. Cause even if it is a solo ship...you don't really know that, and there could be 8 others waiting on the oppisite side of a gate. In which case you still deserve to die for sticking around. Erm... OK? To repeat my other post... there are those who have trained Amarr Recons because with the current NOS mechanics, they are easy mode afk killers. Then there are those who have invested massive amounts of time and isk into their Amarr Recons and can kill BS because of it. The former are hit pretty hard because they're just FOTW players anyway... they'll gripe and move on to the next FOTW after threatening to quit, to recycle their ships, demand skill refunds, etc. (can I have your stuff?) The latter have been hit somewhat, but I've seen a number of them post that solo killing BS is still possible on SiSi with the proposed NOS mechanics and are smart enough to adapt even though NOS is nerfed somewhat.
Kegstand Mcfarland Caldari Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:58:00 - [1104] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Kegstand Mcfarland And on top of all this the %'age of cap is pretty lame. MY BS cant NOS a Frig lower then 50% if im at 50% cap...yet A. It costs me more to run everything I have. B. My cap at 50% is still thousands more then the frigs. C. I dont ever expect a Mack truck to hit my Yugo less hard just because its unfair that im smaller then it is. If your Frig got popped by my BS due to you being dumb enough to stay close and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can damp then you deserve to die. I am not gonna ask Dev's to nerf Titans AE just cause my frig cant handle the pulse....why should you folks expect a NOS Dom to drain any less just because yer small. They say LARGE Nosferatu for a reason. Well this is very easy to reverse: If your BS got popped by my frig because you where dumb enough to not fit a tank that can witstand a single frigs DPS and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can kill frigs then you deserve to die... Well now isnt that funny... You missed the point though. Please refer back tot he list and re- read point a-c.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 16:58:00 - [1105] Originally by: Feng Schui Can i have all my skillpoints that I trained up for using a pilgrim be switched into my raven / producion skills? We haven't seen what fixes the dev has said they're looking into for the (known issues with the) Pilgrim regarding the NOS changes. In the worst case if they go live as-is, fly a Curse or switch to another FOTW.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:00:00 - [1106] Originally by: Semkhet Flame all you want nublet. A lot of PvP'ers use cap injectors rather than massive NOS'es, because except for the Curse and a NOSDomi, the NOSboat will not withstand the DPS of a gank setup long enough for its draining capacity to make the difference, specially when facing passive tanks. You seem to belong to the same class of people who say that tackling was impossible due to hvy NOS. Well I tackle all the time because a True Sansha, Dark Blood or Domination disruptor puts you out of hvy NOS range. Now if you can't even invest 80 mil on a module which allows you to play the way you want, this tells volumes about your overall ingame performance. What i said still nullified most of what you said in my quote. Now you bring new comments to the table. Saying a Gank setup wins VS a NOS setup, ok. Does this balance NOS vs its counterparts? Thats like saying blaster setup wins against damps... Does that make Damps Balanced to other EWAR? The fact is everyone and their mother used left over highslot for NOS even if they could fit Neutralizers/second wpn system. The NOS system needed a nerf or its counterparts a boost. The NOS wasnt i-win module. But it was not balanced. And you may put me in whatever class you can come up with. I havent said a **** about tacklers. And as far as they go they will still have to Fear some Neutralizer boats. However if they find a ship who prefers a NOS over a Neutralizer, it will have alot easier to tackle. And not everyone will anymore Fit nos or neutralizer. Heck with this change some pilots might actually fill all slots with dual wpn systems, its a possibility since the NOS isnt all that powerful anymore and Neutralizers has drawbacks. This change makes for better balance. Shame you cant see it and as a PvP youd want balance between systems as it creates more versitile setups. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:11:00 - [1107] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets. Ignoring any nerf proposals currently on, or off, the table, isn't this somewhat unbalanced as it is then? If a single module means a 3M SP character is 'balanced' against your 40M SP character, what does that mean when the same module is then also in the hands of the 40M SP player? Plus, doesn't that bother you that a 3M SP character with little experience in the game can make your 40M SP and years of experience pretty much worthless? Wouldn't it also mean that it's much more desirable for anyone to just NOS it up since not only does it balance you at low SP against high SP characters but will continue to 'increase your balance' against everyone more and more? What's the point of training past 3M SP then? Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck. There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:12:00 - [1108] Originally by: Feng Schui Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Feng Schui Can i have all my skillpoints that I trained up for using a pilgrim be switched into my raven / producion skills? We haven't seen what fixes the dev has said they're looking into for the (known issues with the) Pilgrim regarding the NOS changes. In the worst case if they go live as-is, fly a Curse or switch to another FOTW. I am a Pilgrim pilot... there will be no other ship. Then why would you want to switch your skills into a Raven
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:13:00 - [1109] 40 pages. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Natasha Kerensky The Company Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:25:00 - [1110] Someone care to sum up the last 40 pages for me? I dont have alot free time ------- Is that a Templar? The Amarr fighter used by carriers?

Crym Synistar	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:27:00 - [1111] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Kegstand Mcfarland Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Kegstand Mcfarland And on top of all this the %'age of cap is pretty lame. MY BS cant NOS a Frig lower then 50% if im at 50% cap...yet A. It costs me more to run everything I have. B. My cap at 50% is still thousands more then the frigs. C. I dont ever expect a Mack truck to hit my Yugo less hard just because its unfair that im smaller then it is. If your Frig got popped by my BS due to you being dumb enough to stay close and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can damp then you deserve to die. I am not gonna ask Dev's to nerf Titans AE just cause my frig cant handle the pulse....why should you folks expect a NOS Dom to drain any less just because yer small. They say LARGE Nosferatu for a reason. Well this is very easy to reverse: If your BS got popped by my frig because you where dumb enough to not fit a tank that can witstand a single frigs DPS and not either come with a tac force or at least a friend who can kill frigs then you deserve to die... Well now isnt that funny... You missed the point though. Please refer back tot he list and re- read point a-c. Points A through C don't make any sense to this discussion but I'll address them if you wish: A: Yes it does, and as a counter to this you do more damage, have a better tank and a wholle lot more energy to pay for those costs, so what exactly are you trying to say?!? B: Again, yes it does and again what the hell does this has to do with the nos nerf?? C: Comparing real life to a computer game, do I really have to say more?!? But just to humour you, take the nos change and compare it to how conecting 2 bateries together works. The battery with the most charge will be drained into the battery with the lowest charge untill the 2 have the same charge. See? An example of RL actually using physics and that neatly explains how the new nos works... Of course its just as pointless as your car example because THIS IS A GAME! Well right back at ya: A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron. B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled. C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time. Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:29:00 - [1112] Originally by: Semkhet Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck. There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming. Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos. And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be. Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more. Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once. I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:32:00 - [1113] Originally by: Borasao Then why would you want to switch your skills into a Raven raven = high sec pve. I also have a hoarder for hauling stuff. And a hurricane for salvaging. I'll only fly a pilgrim for pvp (used to fly an arbitrator before i got cruiser 5... so i could get used to fighting with that ship). so, now.. pvp is out of the question for me ... can't see myself playing eve for much longer. The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:36:00 - [1114] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Semkhet Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck. There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming. Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos. And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be. Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more. Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once. I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu. learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you know And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap Yarr
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:42:00 - [1115] Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above: The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong. That being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim). In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets. Also, since it was not a racial weapon properly speaking, efficient NOS setups also originated in other races like Gallente and Minmatar. This gave the possibility to use NOS or not, according to your own philosophy and class of targets. Does the community not realize that after each successive nerf, we are going each time closer towards a framework were ships will be able to use modules efficiently only as long the ship has apposite bonuses for the module in question ? I like surprise and variability, and when I loose a ship to someone who used a setup I couldn suspect, I'm happy because I learned something. Those who are advocating for nerfs are simply putting the game on a track were ship setups will become static designs according to the race, ship class and age of the player. If that's what you want then I ask myself if half a million years of human evolution to get a brain was worth after all... Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds a good setup it gets nerfed. Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:42:00 - [1116] Originally by: Crym Synistar Well right back at ya: A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron. B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled. C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time. Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad. A) NOS helps you sustain dmg and gimps your raw DPS but it also gimps your Enemies Tank and in some Cases DPS, so the DPs loss is negliable. However after changes it isnt, you will hurt your DPS and streangthen your tank with NOS. You will hurt your tank and streanghten your DPS(by disabeling enemies Tank and sometimes even DPS) with neutralizers. NOS wont be able to do the job of the neutralizer anymore. B) Neutralizer will be used to counter small ships just like NOS used to automaticly do. Big ships can still defend like they used to against small ships. Perhaps a tad bit worse thou. C) This change doesnt hurt the balance BS vs Frig much, hardly at all. However it balances a flawed system in BS vs BS and many other fights. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
SiLkYsOfT Antipodean inc.	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:46:00 - [1117] Well all I have to say is... http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/players/T2KhanidBS_20070802192652.jpg Ahkragan (Command Battleship) * Hardpoints: 8 High Slots (8 launchers), 5 Mid Slots, 7 Low Slots * Fitting: 1024tf , 12567mw * Sensors: 135mm scan res , 123,000m max targeting range, 36 RADAR, 9 Max Locks * Shields: 9500 Hitpoints, 20%EM, 70% EX, 50%KN, 35%TH * Armor: 10250 Hitpoints, 75%EM, 70%EX, 50%KN, 35%TH * Capacitor: 7250 Capacity, 1000 Recharge time * Drone Bay: 100m3 * 3 Rig hardpoints, 500 Calibration Bonuses * 5% bonus to Torpedo/Cruise damage per Amarr Battleship level * 5% bonus to armor resistances per Amarr Battleship level * 10% reduction of explosion radius of Tordepo/Cruise per Command Battleship level * 5% bonus to missile EM damage per Command Battleship level * 99.99% CPU reduction for fitted command modules Lacks the range of the CNR, but has a bonus to armor resistances, a better capacitor and targeting range. Pretty much an supercharged armor tanking CNR. Tachyons?? ___________________________ I don't even need to train Caldari to become another drone. Just use my T2 Amarr
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:46:00 - [1118] Originally by: Natasha Kerensky Someone care to sum up the last 40 pages for me? I dont have alot free time 95% Rabble Rabble. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Crym Synistar	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:47:00 - [1119] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Crym Synistar Well right back at ya: A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron. B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled. C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time. Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad. A) NOS helps you sustain dmg and gimps your raw DPS but it also gimps your Enemies Tank and in some Cases DPS, so the DPs loss is negliable. However after changes it isnt, you will hurt your DPS and streangthen your tank with NOS. You will hurt your tank and streanghten your DPS(by disabeling enemies Tank and sometimes even DPS) with neutralizers. NOS wont be able to do the job of the neutralizer anymore. B) Neutralizer will be used to counter small ships just like NOS used to automaticly do. Big ships can still defend like they used to against small ships. Perhaps a tad bit worse thou. C) This change doesnt hurt the balance BS vs Frig much, hardly at all. However it balances a flawed system in BS vs BS and many other fights. Well at least yer not taking the arguement to the gutter! Thanks for the decent response and will try and see how this goes...just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:48:00 - [1120] Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: murder one Originally by: Semkhet Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck. There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming. Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos. And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be. Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more. Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once. I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu. learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you know And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap They are not removing the NOS. They removing the NOS ability to perform a Neutralizers Job efficently and at the same time performing its own. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:54:00 - [1121] Originally by: Crym Synistar Originally by: Fager Originally by: Crym Synistar Well right back at ya: A. NOS=CPU Guns=PG ...Most nos boats have crap for PG due to large tanks which sustain DPS taken due to lower dps output. Hence a Dom versus a Thron. B. Has everything to do with NOS I am using a gigantic NOS against a tiny frig...IT has everythign to do with nos nerf because My 100mil BS with giant nos effectively nos's worse against a 5 dollar ship that should be insta crippled. C. This is a comparison that is quite easy to see and make the connection. People sometimes lack the ability to realize (like you obviously) that sometimes comeplete balance isnt meant to be there. The mack truck/ yugo is exactly what is happening when a frig takes on a BS. A Bs fit with Large turrets already has slim to no chance of hitting due to crappy tracking hence why AF's farm Bs spawns...now with a nos fitted the Bs effectively scres the fly away for a time. Be mean if ya want, but just expect it to come back 2x as bad. A) NOS helps you sustain dmg and gimps your raw DPS but it also gimps your Enemies Tank and in some Cases DPS, so the DPs loss is negliable. However after changes it isnt, you will hurt your DPS and streangthen your tank with NOS. You will hurt your tank and streanghten your DPS(by disabeling enemies Tank and sometimes even DPS) with neutralizers. NOS wont be able to do the job of the neutralizer anymore. B) Neutralizer will be used to counter small ships just like NOS used to automaticly do. Big ships can still defend like they used to against small ships. Perhaps a tad bit worse thou. C) This change doesnt hurt the balance BS vs Frig much, hardly at all. However it balances a flawed system in BS vs BS and many other fights. Well at least yer not taking the arguement to the gutter! Thanks for the decent response and will try and see how this goes...just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way. Im glad to shine some light over the changes and its effects. Try not to see your ship as nerfed.. more of Balanced (however if your flying Curse/pilgrim id say you got couse to worry). General rule for all MMOs is that fotm classes/ships will be BALANCED... .. unless you play Lineage2, crazy over there with fotm classes getting more boosts becouse they were good PvP classes hehe. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Crym Synistar	Posted - 2007.08.02 17:57:00 - [1122] Edited by: Crym Synistar on 02/08/2007 17:59:02 Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: murder one Originally by: Semkhet Nope, because experienced and older people usually have more isk, hence fly fancier ships than noobs. That linked with their enormous advantage in skill points make that a noob flying a NOS setup might have a chance at least to fend off an attack. What made NOSdomi's so powerfull was the synergy of 3 completely distinct aspects: massive NOS coupled with drones coupled with ECM. Since ECM has been taken out of the equation there's frankly little chances a NOSdomi can resist against a well piloted BS in 1vs1. FYI, my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector, so any ship is welcome except a Curse. But even a Curse can only field 5 meds and 5 lil drones, and Machariel the same. What happens when you pop the Curse's drones instead of going after him ? When you run out of cap all the Curse's advantages disappear since it can't maintain its MWD coupled with its disruptors simultaneously. That's when you relaunch your drones and fire a good volley which can even instapop him with a bit of luck. There's nothing that can't be coped with in the game. And the game will never be balanced because we aren't even balanced with our respective IQ's to start with... That's why nerfing is by essence a monument to mediocrity. Balancing is proceeding by little touches, and it's not what we are seeing coming. Without ECM, the Dominix is still one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful BS in the game, 1v1. Why? Nos. This is a TIER ONE battleship. It can effectively overpower just about any other setup in the game due to Nos. And why is this? Because nos does double duty in both breaking an enemy tank and sustaining your own. Completely overpowered. A Domi with neutralizers can also break a target's tank and kill it quickly, but it can't sustain itself without using a cap injector, and it also has a harder time running it's active tank. This is how it should be. Furthermore, all the Curse/Domi pilots etc. worrying about their current ship setups being 'useless': modify your current ship setups. Or just fly different ships all together. Blasterthrons have been nerfed over and over again. Solution: I don't fly them any more. Everyone's answer when I complained that Bthrons were crap: "Suck it up. Adapt." I think the nos change is great. It'll give smaller ships a better chance now against larger ships, and actually bring neutralizers out of the shed and into the battlefield for once. I really hope they don't change a thing. The nos change is wonderful. I can't wait. All the people who haven't trained up for multiple styles of fighting: you've screwed yourself by being too narrow and not having a diverse skill set. You're going to go the way of the dinosaurs and die off while everyone else carries on. Buhu. learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you know And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap Agree totally... The main problem is that alot of the people who whined that these setups are over powered usually at some point lost their ship and a friend or 2's ships fighting this setup....BUT the one thing that most people fail to realize is that 3 ships fit with a combined 150 mil in mods and piloted by unskilled and low SP toons against someone with 300+ mil alone in mods in there supersetup are sometimes destined to fail. I tried it personally...raven/drake/scorpion all (me included) setup wrong and unskilled against a guy with a fully decked out t2/faction dom...and we wonder why we lost. I knew why and I didn't cry I just never undocked another BS till I had the skills to back it up.
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:04:00 - [1123] agreed _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
Phyridean Lionsgate Ionic Dispersion	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:06:00 - [1124] Edited by: Phyridean on 02/08/2007 18:07:01 Hehe...Why not replace nosses with a highslot module that increases your capacitor without bothering with the enemy? Maybe it sucks down your own shields and uses the energy for cap? All those "I can't use neuts on my curse/pilgrim without running out of cap before my BS opponent does" become much less of a problem. Neuts can still be used to suck cap to zero, and it doesn't help a passive shield tanked setup. Hmmmmmmm.... I am joking unless this is actually a good idea.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:08:00 - [1125] Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 18:11:33 Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 18:08:49 Originally by: Fager Edited by:**er on 02/08/2007 17:55:26 Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: murder one shortened for easier forum reading learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you know And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap They are not removing the NOS. They removing the NOS ability to perform a Neutralizers Job efficently and at the same time performing its own No, they're removing nos's and adding some new thing that I will hearby call; meh, since that is what it'll be. Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:11:00 - [1126] Originally by: William DeMeo Yarr /Beer "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Jack Forge Gallente Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:19:00 - [1127] perhaps having a sliding scale of how much energy is recovered by the noss would be better.... like, you get less and it takes less as the targets cap gets smaller, noss only removes a % of the cap or amount depending on which is smaller? so if you noss a ship at 100% cap (target) a t2 heavy noss would take 20% or a max of 250 energy units (whichever is the smaller amount) of the targets.... (lets go with 2000) so one cycle would take 20% or 200, 20% of 2000 is 400 so the noss takes 200. 2000 ---> 1750 next cycle target cap 1775 (recharge) and noss goes again for 20% (355) or 250, takes 250 1775 ---> 1525 1580 (recharge % increase) noss hits for 20% (316) or 250, takes 250 1580 ----> 1330 1390 --> noss 20% (278) or 250. takes 250 1390 ---> 1140 1220 (close to peak recharge) --- noss 20% (244) or 250, takes 244 ----> 976 1010 20% (202) ---> 808 828 20% (166) ---> 662 etc. of course the % and the max # would not be like this and would be different for each type.... this allows for noss to still be effective but also give the target some more leeway or at least the ability to shoot back for a short time __________________________________________________ Stupid is as stupid does...
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:21:00 - [1128] Originally by: Feng Schui so, now.. pvp is out of the question for me ... can't see myself playing eve for much longer. Can I have your stuff?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:22:00 - [1129] Originally by: William DeMeo Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed. T,FTFY
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:25:00 - [1130] Originally by: Crym Synistar just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way. I'm guilty of this myself... but it is the way things go when you always try to fly the FOTM.

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:26:00 - [1131] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: William DeMeo Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed. T,FTFY t,ftfy = ? Also ppl say this and that gets nerfed.. you should see it more of this and that gets balanced! I cant understand why ppl especially dedicated PvPer wouldnt want some form of balance between systems. That makes all system more usable and the fights more unpredictable. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:29:00 - [1132] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: William DeMeo Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed. T,FTFY l2p n00b. Yarr
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:32:00 - [1133] Originally by: Natasha Kerensky Someone care to sum up the last 40 pages for me? I dont have alot free time Look at CCP's answer (posts 970 or so), that the only thing that really matter. Basically, CCP aknowledge the objections, some will be corrected when the patch goes live, some will be at a later time, and others just won't be. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.02 18:44:00 - [1134] Originally by: Bentula The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. But if people fail to see the advantage of a bonused, capless, primary weaponsystem on amarr ships(which just happen to have the strongest capacitor anyway) in combination with this nosnerf i think no amount of pictures and explanations will help em. From a Damnation point of view we already had a capless primary weapon, or a weapon with bonuses... or if we wanted to fit Projectile or even Hybrid turrets, we could, if we wanted to fit HAMS and Heavy's, Rockets, standard missiles and if you really wanted to at great expense, a Torpedo! CCP turned in my opinion the most flexible and variety ship in the game and shut the window down to a small ***** that only HAMS can fit into. Check this out if you don't believe me. With the skills and the current Damnation... You can do, EM, EX, KI, and TH damage types and do a decent amount of it. Drones Hornet II Hornet II Hornet II Hornet II Hornet II High Slots Armor Warfare Link Armor Warfare Link Heavy Beam Laser II - Gleam M Heavy Beam Laser II - Gleam M Heavy Beam Laser II - Gleam M Heavy Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Med Slots 10MN After Burner II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Low Slots Armor EM Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Capacitor Power Repay II Rigs Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I I can actually run all those mods apart from the AB-II non-stop 24/7/365, If I need to get somewhere fast I stop a MAR-II and AB it to the location then turn back on the MAR-II to recover my tank. This is with 80-87% Resistances on ALL damage types. Power Grid Left over - 45.5 CPU left over - 20.45 If CCP left the weapons slots alone but changed the bonuses and reduced the power grid, I can't FIT THIS! I'm too low on Power grid. Now here is the kicker... If I take that EXACT SAME SETUP but remove the weapons and put HAM-II's on there instead. Guess what happens. I'm left with the following Power Grid Left over - 240.5 CPU left over - [-12.75] As in Negative 12.75 CPU Plenty of Power grid but I CAN'T FIT MY TANK! I need just a smigg more CPU. Either way whoever thought a Damnation with HAMS is a brilliant idea needs to actually fly one before they go spouting off about how cool it would be to have one. Like I said, we can already, if we so choose, fit HAMs to the Damnation, we can also fit Heavy Missiles, Lasers, Projectile and Hybrids, neither one of those gave any real damage benefit, lasers for a Range boost only. The Damnation is now as flexible as a ship you could possibly want. If this patch goes though it's no longer flexible, it comes with 1 standard setup and that's utter garbage. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:07:00 - [1135] Edited by: Bentula on 02/08/2007 19:12:51 Originally by: Semkhet ... my favorite BS is Machariel with 8 guns and a cap injector ... Tbh i stopped reading there. Edit: How can people expect the devs taking their arguments seriously if they show such a lack of knowledge about even their "faviorite" ships? How many people here are even commenting about ships they have never flown, fighted against, and how many did even bother to test new setups on sisi before they whine about these changes? Imho these changes are far from unreasonable. The only ships as such getting a nerf are those with nosboni, which will hopefully get addressed in some way. No other ships can claim nos as their primary highslot module, and you cant tell me you invested millions of SP purely into nos either, so we are all in the same boat. If worst comes to worst you might actually have to fit some guns on ships like the domi and use the hybrid bonus a bit.
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:08:00 - [1136] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Originally by: Falun Assad Edited by: Falun Assad on 02/08/2007 15:03:40 Originally by: CCP Fendahl This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Please reread one of the made proposals: Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s With this mechanic Neuts are clearly seperated from Noses. Ships wont get zapped aka insta drained. Having a big capacitor gives you more time before suffering from the Noses effects. The Nos is still effective for leeching, although it can be debated if there should be a stacking penalty. Additionally this change allows you to stay alive for a very long time although being nossed by using a cap booster. So, why dont you try this one? Probably the only valid argument against the NOS nerf I've read so far on this entire damn thread. That being said, I still like the Dev's idea better because if someone Neuts you to hell you can make a comeback by using bunches of NOS. Your idea will gimp it 2much I dont see your point, because if he Neuts you at 20.83 while using 15,625 (at best skill with Heavy Neut I), you will still regen at 7,17 (Heavy Nos I) while reducing his regen down to 12 Cap/s. Bottom line, he neuts, you nos, you win. so Neuts only make sense in combo with Noses, and vice versa if you want to kill his cap, but nos will work fine alone to sustain your own tank with out being overpowered.. _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
Mark Hamill Galactic Waste Management	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:29:00 - [1137] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: bellator militaris I'm sure glad I trained up for the last 45 days to get T2 Lasers for my Sacrilege, now I can train up for Stupid Missiles. Your T2 Lasers don't work on the Zealot? I haven't seen a "Medium Energy Turret Specialization (Sacrilege)" skill book anywhere. Where did you find it and how much did it cost? I don't think you quite get the picture here. Right now, it's not IF someone can fly a Zealot, it's if they PREFER to fly the Zealot. I personally prefer the Sac for it's superior tank and cap regenen though it has lower damage output. Right now, I have a choice as to which to fly as my skills work on both of them. If this NERF goes through, my Sac will be sitting in the hangar for months until I can find the time to train a host of missile skills up so I can mount and use ONE SPECIFIC FLAVOR of missile. It's like telling every Caldari that CCP is going to IMPROVE the Drake by changing all of it's launcher hard points to MEDIUM PULSE LASER hard points and then me pointing out to you that hey, your Ferox still uses hybrids!
joahn	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:44:00 - [1138] well one idea i have for helping out nuets wiht there timing is make a skill called energy nuetrilization (rank 4) which in turn deceases energy nuet time by 5% per lvl
Mark Hamill Galactic Waste Management	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:51:00 - [1139] Quote: Two complaints about the HAMs (relevant since Khanid rely on HAMs) is that they are too slow to catch up with high speed targets and that the range is too short when compared with Heavy Missiles relative to Rockets/Standard Missiles and Torpedos/Cruise Missiles. We plan to revise the close range missiles, but unfortunately not for Revelations 2.2. Translation: Screw you, we're CCP and we're gonna ram these changes down your throat whether you like it or not. You opinions will only matter when it comes to TWEAKING what we've already decided is best for you. Let me point out something to you CCP. Mythic Entertainment was once quoted regarding Dark Age of Camelot as saying, "The players don't know what they want, but we do." Continue to take that approach and you too will see your MMO on the short list.
Sanilnar	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:53:00 - [1140] What about this idea, Im sure it already has been asked but under the miniscule chance it hasnt... how about this: Keep NOS at a percentage, say small do 2%, medium 4%, and large 6%. We have no stacking penalty but either way, the nos stays the same... For example, A BS warps in on a frigate and engages with nos. Rather than draining 120 cap instantly crippling the frigate, it takes only 6% of the frigates cap. This way, it solves the big ship little ship quarrel while still doing what nos's do best, transferring cap. Now, we could debate about that... Because obviously 6% of a BS's cap is MUCH more than 6% of a frigates cap... Therefore you can make the Battleship either gain 6% and the frigate lose 6% or you can make the frigate lose 6% and the BS only gain the frigates 6%... To make that more clear, Say a frigate has 100 cap, and the BS has 1,000 (way off i know... just for easy purposes). The Battleship uses a heavy nos and drains 6%. Option numer one is that the frigate loses 6 cap, and the battleship gains 60, due to the change in cap. Option two is that the frigate loses 6 and the battleship only gains 6... Its either percentage of both or percentage of the ship being nossed. This way it still keeps battleships in check with frigates. There is no more insta-take of nos but it is still used as its primary function, a WEAPON. Also, this way the curse and pilgrim are not completely butt-raped by this nerf. It allows for the primary role of the curse and pilgrim to be fulfilled (say a curse gets a 2% bonus to nos per level, unstacked), and that way each medium nos the curse uses gives it 14% cap and takes away that same amount from the target ship. it takes into consideration almost the same plan that N1fty camp up with here: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: N1ftyEdited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Idea: Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can see the similarity, the only difference i believe is that he suggested a stacking nerf... I dont agree with that only because of the curse's predicament in that area... This would make nos ships still somewhat effective, but on a BALANCED level, not a NERFED level. This way a frigate has time to get away having only 6% of its cap be drained... And if a BS warps in on a frigate, he should know that the nos is not going to help him at all (6 cap to a BS is not even enough to shoot a single gun once) except by helping to drain the other's cap, which will happen over a VERY long time. I am open to any and all suggestions, or for anyone to point me to where a post basically exactly like mine is at... =)

Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:54:00 - [1141] yup, especially as infinity progresses more and more, did anyone try the combat simulator yet? _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 19:59:00 - [1142] Originally by: Sanilnar What about this idea, Im sure it already has been asked but under the miniscule chance it hasnt... how about this: Keep NOS at a percentage, say small do 2%, medium 4%, and large 6%. We have no stacking penalty but either way, the nos stays the same... For example, A BS warps in on a frigate and engages with nos. Rather than draining 120 cap instantly crippling the frigate, it takes only 6% of the frigates cap. This way, it solves the big ship little ship quarrel while still doing what nos's do best, transferring cap. Now, we could debate about that... Because obviously 6% of a BS's cap is MUCH more than 6% of a frigates cap... Therefore you can make the Battleship either gain 6% and the frigate lose 6% or you can make the frigate lose 6% and the BS only gain the frigates 6%... To make that more clear, Say a frigate has 100 cap, and the BS has 1,000 (way off i know... just for easy purposes). The Battleship uses a heavy nos and drains 6%. Option numer one is that the frigate loses 6 cap, and the battleship gains 60, due to the change in cap. Option two is that the frigate loses 6 and the battleship only gains 6... Its either percentage of both or percentage of the ship being nossed. This way it still keeps battleships in check with frigates. There is no more insta-take of nos but it is still used as its primary function, a WEAPON. Also, this way the curse and pilgrim are not completely butt-raped by this nerf. It allows for the primary role of the curse and pilgrim to be fulfilled (say a curse gets a 2% bonus to nos per level, unstacked), and that way each medium nos the curse uses gives it 14% cap and takes away that same amount from the target ship. it takes into consideration almost the same plan that N1fty camp up with here: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: N1ftyEdited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Idea: Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can see the similarity, the only difference i believe is that he suggested a stacking nerf... I dont agree with that only because of the curse's predicament in that area... This would make nos ships still somewhat effective, but on a BALANCED level, not a NERFED level. This way a frigate has time to get away having only 6% of its cap be drained... And if a BS warps in on a frigate, he should know that the nos is not going to help him at all (6 cap to a BS is not even enough to shoot a single gun once) except by helping to drain the other's cap, which will happen over a VERY long time. I am open to any and all suggestions, or for anyone to point me to where a post basically exactly like mine is at... =) No offense, but you missed the most important part of niftys post: he wants noses to leech the cap regen instead of the cap. _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
Sanilnar	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:01:00 - [1143] Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa Originally by: Sanilnar What about this idea, Im sure it already has been asked but under the miniscule chance it hasnt... how about this: Keep NOS at a percentage, say small do 2%, medium 4%, and large 6%. We have no stacking penalty but either way, the nos stays the same... For example, A BS warps in on a frigate and engages with nos. Rather than draining 120 cap instantly crippling the frigate, it takes only 6% of the frigates cap. This way, it solves the big ship little ship quarrel while still doing what nos's do best, transferring cap. Now, we could debate about that... Because obviously 6% of a BS's cap is MUCH more than 6% of a frigates cap... Therefore you can make the Battleship either gain 6% and the frigate lose 6% or you can make the frigate lose 6% and the BS only gain the frigates 6%... To make that more clear, Say a frigate has 100 cap, and the BS has 1,000 (way off i know... just for easy purposes). The Battleship uses a heavy nos and drains 6%. Option numer one is that the frigate loses 6 cap, and the battleship gains 60, due to the change in cap. Option two is that the frigate loses 6 and the battleship only gains 6... Its either percentage of both or percentage of the ship being nossed. This way it still keeps battleships in check with frigates. There is no more insta-take of nos but it is still used as its primary function, a WEAPON. Also, this way the curse and pilgrim are not completely butt-raped by this nerf. It allows for the primary role of the curse and pilgrim to be fulfilled (say a curse gets a 2% bonus to nos per level, unstacked), and that way each medium nos the curse uses gives it 14% cap and takes away that same amount from the target ship. it takes into consideration almost the same plan that N1fty camp up with here: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: N1ftyEdited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Idea: Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can see the similarity, the only difference i believe is that he suggested a stacking nerf... I dont agree with that only because of the curse's predicament in that area... This would make nos ships still somewhat effective, but on a BALANCED level, not a NERFED level. This way a frigate has time to get away having only 6% of its cap be drained... And if a BS warps in on a frigate, he should know that the nos is not going to help him at all (6 cap to a BS is not even enough to shoot a single gun once) except by helping to drain the other's cap, which will happen over a VERY long time. I am open to any and all suggestions, or for anyone to point me to where a post basically exactly like mine is at... =) No offense, but you missed the most important part of niftys post: he wants noses to leech the cap regen instead of the cap. whatever. Either way my post remains the same.
Yaay Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:03:00 - [1144] Originally by: Crym Synistar Thanks for the decent response and will try and see how this goes...just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way. Flavor of the month club? There are ships in this game that are overpowered, it's not a bad thing to change that. Do I agree with the change, sorta, it could have been handled better. Do I agree with the people who ship hop whenever their ship is changed... NO. Adapt. On MK II, I like the idea of missles on the ships, but you went way to the extreme and just ruled out guns? WHY? What's so wrong with making the Sacriledge a split setup like the Phantasm? Same bonuses, different ability. If you're scared that the phantasm won't be used as much, drop the Sac's energy use bonus in place of a range bonus for missles. Or something. But FFS, quit taking people so litteral and build the game the way is should be. With each patch, this game get's worse, not better. I mean honestly, how many people have left the game because of an overpowered domi, or khanid ship sucking? Small changes until right, not big leaps that only break ships completly (and then a year of "fixing it")! http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Khorian/war_progress.jpg
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:19:00 - [1145] I tried out the malediction on the test server, with a couple different setups. One with 3 small missile launchers and the other with 3 rocket launchers. I don't have my rocket/missile skills maxed out yet like my pulse lasers are, but it seems like the rockets actually do MORE DPS then the missiles do, because of their RoF. The small missiles do more damage then the old pulse lasers would, but the RoF is so slow that they are not as effective (I'm using named modules as well to reduce firing time as much as possible.) Rockets do less damage then pulse lasers, but it still feels gimped compared to the old malediction. I used to be able to take out npc battlecruisers with no trouble. With the rockets and missiles, I cant even break hard cruiser's tanks, even when using the right damage type. Can anyone else confirm what I'm seeing here? or is this a result of my pulse laser skills being better then my missile skills? ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth
gregory j Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:23:00 - [1146] Nice to see that NOS won't be such a determining factor anymore. I only see this as an advantage, personally, since I fly gallente. However...these changes do seem to hurt some ships tremendously...passive tanks, for instance, which typically rely on cap-independent endurance builds, will no longer be able to NOS their targets effectively. On the same note, cap-intensive setups will be more effective since they will typically be immune to the NOS effects of a ship using less cap. I like the amarr boosts as well...they look so cool so it's about time they have some really nice setups. However, I find the sacrilege to be a little overpowered...2 DPS bonuses, a tank bonus, and a cap bonus? ------------------------------------------------ 2007.02.22 03:34 This evemail message is subject to a CSPA service charge of 2,000,000,000 ISK, which you must accept to complete the invitation.
General Xenophon Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:25:00 - [1147] Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:31:11 Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:27:52 Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:26:21 I am against this nos nerf! Maybe if you knew how to balance the game to begin with you wouldn't have to nerf things... What will CCP deem necessary to nerf next? Ridiculous!!! Maybe you should implement another patch that screws up the economy next. Or better yet, just destroy all BPOs.... Hey, who needs balance! Let's just nerf the hell out of everything! This is VERY agrivating. (hence the editing... First few posts were very angry rants - believe it or not this last post is a lot ... kinder...) I will wait and see what the changes will be, but from what I have heard so far, I really don't like the sound of it. Can we please focus on existing issues like lag and such? And by the way, will ALL nos be nerfed? Even npc nos?
ntronic	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:30:00 - [1148] well this is the funyest nerf so far, at list the ones i have seen. I cant wait the day when you do the same thing to guns. Ill ignore medium and smal nos as it was fine as it ... About Heavy Nos well is now just a crapy mod, at list for the 2000 or so pg that it uses. If you think you fixed nosing than your wrong,lets have a chat in 6 or so months when your nerfing neutrilizers. And about ceptors and other smaller than bc ships are now ****** more than before my point off view is form a bs - heavy nosing - neuting as thats the only ones i used before. Anyway you suck more cap whit one neutrilizer than you do whit 4 heavy nos. So i hope, that now peeps will come in a fight and say, ow a domi hehe his nerfed lests get him and when thay get in range of my 25 km zaper.. Zzaapp and thay dont have cap mm, i cant wait for a vagas or ceptors. Im not sure what you tryed to do whit this nos change, nothing will change at list not that i see.oh wait maybe im wrong curse price will go down abit same as domi i recon and someone is lafing his ass off whit his t2 neut bpo, and offcurse cap boosters will stay on ships .... If your realy wont to fix nosing just give the same mods stacking penalties and leave nos as it is or something. To bad you didnt just lower pg need for neutrilizers and made me happy, after that we can just call it a nosing buff. anyway lets start training enargy emissions systems 5 and start zapping ow and sory about my english i know its crapy. have fun and stay frosty
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:43:00 - [1149] Edited by: SencneS on 02/08/2007 20:52:35 Originally by: Mari Onette Can anyone else confirm what I'm seeing here? or is this a result of my pulse laser skills being better then my missile skills? Confirmed... all that time you spent on your Pulse Laser skills will be tossed down the toilet. You have two options 1) Stop training whatever you're training and train up Missile skills. "Adapt or die" some like to say, but don't worry those months of training those laser skills may come in handy at some point down the road when they turn the Galentee Drone skills into Laser skills in an effort to diversity everyones characters. Specialization anyone? Yes I Specialized in flying Khanid ships which pretty much allows me to train any ship from any race and use it effectively right out of the BOX! 2) Sell off any ship you have that has Khanid anywhere in it's description. Instantly cutting you're available ships in half. Which some people say "Suck it up and use the other ships that DO allow you to use your trained skills." Think of it this way, you also cut down the amount of equipment you need to buy. If you planned on BPO's you now only need to buy a select few as the ships you fly have been narrowed from 16 to 8, Yes there are 8 Khanid T2 ships out of the total 16 T2 Amarr ships. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.02 20:58:00 - [1150] Originally by: General Xenophon Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:31:11 Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:27:52 Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:26:21 I am against this nos nerf! Maybe if you knew how to balance the game to begin with you wouldn't have to nerf things... What will CCP deem necessary to nerf next? Ridiculous!!! You've never played an MMO before, I take it.

Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:08:00 - [1151] Originally by: CCP Fendahl I'm not gona lie and say what you want to do doesn't create a balance. It's just the manner in which youÆre doing it. If you will not falter on the changes adding a skill which allows you to NOS a target 5% below yours per lvl will make the changes a little bit easier to swallow for both NOS and the Amarr recon ships. This will allow only highly skilled pilots to drain ships below equal cap. Also 2 Changes which one you talked about need to happen. NOS should require less CPU & Power grid. As there usefulness has dropped massively they should be easy to fit. Also like you stated before neuts need a power grid reduction. They should be something closer to the power grid of Ranged Guns. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
tikinish	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:11:00 - [1152] Edited by: tikinish on 02/08/2007 21:11:00 wow i LOOOOOOOOVEEEEEE the kanid boost:D although i hate the fact that as a caldari i am setting here thinking... ahhh.... ahhh.... i want those ships :S where is my boost to shield res:P and no s change
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:11:00 - [1153] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 02/08/2007 20:52:35 Originally by: Mari Onette Can anyone else confirm what I'm seeing here? or is this a result of my pulse laser skills being better then my missile skills? Confirmed... all that time you spent on your Pulse Laser skills will be tossed down the toilet. You have two options 1) Stop training whatever you're training and train up Missile skills. "Adapt or die" some like to say, but don't worry those months of training those laser skills may come in handy at some point down the road when they turn the Galentee Drone skills into Laser skills in an effort to diversity everyones characters. Specialization anyone? Yes I Specialized in flying Khanid ships which pretty much allows me to train any ship from any race and use it effectively right out of the BOX! 2) Sell off any ship you have that has Khanid anywhere in it's description. Instantly cutting you're available ships in half. Which some people say "Suck it up and use the other ships that DO allow you to use your trained skills." Think of it this way, you also cut down the amount of equipment you need to buy. If you planned on BPO's you now only need to buy a select few as the ships you fly have been narrowed from 16 to 8, Yes there are 8 Khanid T2 ships out of the total 16 T2 Amarr ships. You are exaggerating just a bit. There are only 5 Khanid ships that will use missile skills. They were for the most part broken before this fix. Not the end of the world. -------------
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:25:00 - [1154] Originally by: Matroshka There are only 5 Khanid ships that will use missile skills. They were for the most part broken before this fix. Not the end of the world. Here let me fix the last statemt. Originally by: SencneS 2) Sell off 60% of the Khanid ships. Instantly cutting you're available ships in 2/3rd. Which some people say "Suck it up and use the other ships that DO allow you to use your trained skills. That's an Impel (Lovely transport ship, very PVP resistant! The Heretic, besides we need to see more warp bubble throwers. Stop WHINING!" Think of it this way, you also cut down the amount of equipment you need to buy. If you planned on BPO's you now only need to buy a select few as the ships you fly have been narrowed from 16 to 11, Yes this patch effectively negates 1/3rd of the ships you have the skill sets to use effectively ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Fesch Fleisch	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:29:00 - [1155] Edited by: Fesch Fleisch on 02/08/2007 21:31:51 Funny thing about the new Khanid ships. According to this blog Khanid == missiles. But let's look at two amarr ships, the anethema(covops) and purifier(stealth bomber). Let's ignore the ridiculousness of rockets on a covops ship, beam lasers at least are usable outside of decloaking range, not that covops need weapons. However, with the definition of khanid I'm getting from the blog, it would make more sense to switch which one is khanid and (to keep things in line) give the stealth bomber torp bonuses ... but wait, that would actually be a boost, not a slap in the face. We can't have none of that. Let's go on boosting Minmatar so it keeps looking like that's the reason I chose to fly them, instead of them being the underdogs like I assumed they were.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:35:00 - [1156] Originally by: Fesch Fleisch Funny thing about the new Khanid ships. According to this blog Khanid == missiles. But let's look at too amarr ships, the anethema(covops) and purifier(stealth bomber). Let's ignore the ridiculousness of rockets on a covops ship, beam lasers at least are usable outside of decloaking range, not that covops need weapons. However, with the definition of khanid I'm getting from the blog, it would make more sense to switch which one is khanid and (to keep things in line) give the stealth bomber torp bonuses ... but wait, that would actually be a boost, not a slap in the face. We can't have none of that. Let's go on boosting Minmatar so it keeps looking like that's the reason I chose to fly them, instead of them being the underdogs like I assumed they were. Stealth bombers do not use their racial large weapons though (although I think it could be cool), they all use cruise missiles across the board. And wait, you don't even fly these ships? -------------
Yuma Beech	Posted - 2007.08.02 21:59:00 - [1157] Thanks loads guys, and i do mean loads for changing the NOS to a nothing module. i have spent the last month training for the curse and pilgrim. i have purchased the ships and all necessary components and I'm just waiting for my last 5 days of training to elapse, and now you go pull this CRAP! What type of drugs are you guys using?
Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM Caldari W33D Corp. O X I D E	Posted - 2007.08.02 22:25:00 - [1158] As always CCP does a very "good" thing. They destroy something good. NOS are the only good for amarr. Now u take that too from amarr. The new Khanid ships are interesting but most pvp amarr players don't have missile skills. IF U NERF NOS MAYBE IS TIME TO DO SOMETING ABOUT AMARR. SOMETGING TO LOWER THE LASER CAPACITOR NEED OR AMARR WILL BE ONCE AGAIN USELESS WHAT ABOUT CURSE? IF NOS WILL BE LIKE THIS U CAN DELETE CURSE
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.02 22:47:00 - [1159] Originally by: Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM As always CCP does a very "good" thing. They destroy something good. NOS are the only good for amarr. Now u take that too from amarr. The new Khanid ships are interesting but most pvp amarr players don't have missile skills. IF U NERF NOS MAYBE IS TIME TO DO SOMETING ABOUT AMARR. SOMETGING TO LOWER THE LASER CAPACITOR NEED OR AMARR WILL BE ONCE AGAIN USELESS WHAT ABOUT CURSE? IF NOS WILL BE LIKE THIS U CAN DELETE CURSE The nos change is going to benefit Amarr the most. Since Amarr are cap hogs with lasers and armor tanking, you will most likely always have lower cap than your opponent. Also the Curse/Pilgrim and all other ships that have a bonus to nos and/or neuts are being looked closer as not to gimp them. And as far as missiles skills, yeah most Amarr don't have missile skills... yet.
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.02 22:50:00 - [1160] When it comes down to it even if NOS needed to be nurfed a little bit what youÆre doing just doesn't make since. Changing the mod in this manner doesn't fit into the role-playing aspect of EVE. This is the kind of change other MMO's make. First add a stacking bonus & sig penalty. Plz do things within the confines of the game instead of going about it the easiest way possible. What you should do is nurf this idea. After reading, thinking, reading & thinking this is the best way to do it to keep the customer base happy and the whinny nubs: Heavy NOS - signature resolution 400mm Accuracy falloff 0km Optimal range 20km Stacking Penalty for using more then on type of this mod This is by far the better way to fix it then anything else. Pretty much what it would boil down to is a Large NOS would hit a frigate just a little bit better the a small nos.. Give or take some. These changes are logical. Lowering the power grid on Neuts so other races besides Amarr can fit the effectively would also make since. However Curses still remain a solopwning machine. But you should nurf the ship instead of nurfing NOS. If you fix one thing an break the next youÆre not really fixing anything....???! Take the time an really think about this. Create a thread on how people would feel about these options instead of the one youÆre proposed which is plainly sickening with great modifications. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])

akim	Posted - 2007.08.02 23:05:00 - [1161] Make NOS signature based. Don't nerf the damnations PG! Make it a general missile bonus, and not just HAM/rockets. Rest is fine. There, that's the patch I want to see.
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.02 23:41:00 - [1162] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 02/08/2007 20:52:35 Originally by: Mari Onette Can anyone else confirm what I'm seeing here? or is this a result of my pulse laser skills being better then my missile skills? Confirmed... all that time you spent on your Pulse Laser skills will be tossed down the toilet. Thats not quite what i asked. Unlike most poster's here I'm more interested in exploring the changes then whining about them. What I'm wondering about is the math related to DPS on pulse lasers vs rockets vs missiles. IE:All skills being equal, Is my DPS going to be better or worse with rockets and missiles vs my old pulse lasers? Rockets seem to do more DPS then missiles when you calculate the rocket/missiles damage score and divide it by the launchers RoF. Pulse lasers seem to consistently hit harder then rockets, even when taking into account things like tracking, chance to hit, and damage type. I have tested this on singularity, and it seems to me that pulse lasers do the most damage, followed by rockets, then light missiles when dealing with the malediction. HOWEVER, i don't have all my skills up in rockets yet so I can't be sure. I am looking forward to the changes, but it will be very disappointing if my DPS drops off in exchange for an armor resist bonus that only comes into play when you've done something wrong, (like getting webified). On tranqulity, i can take down 500k battlecruisers with the malediction and dual light pulse laser II's. On SiSi, I cant even break the tank of a 125k cruiser. IF this is because my missile skills suck, thats fine. I'm willing to train skills. If this is some sort of trade off for armor resists, I'd rather keep my DPS. ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.02 23:57:00 - [1163] Maybe this is the solution to the Curse and Pilgrim.... Give the Curse and Pilgrim an insane bonus that drastically decreases cap usage for activating Neuts. Problem solved.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.02 23:57:00 - [1164] With max skills, no rigs, implants or damagemods and t1 ammo you get mostly EM 94.5 dps for the new version with 3 rocket launchers and a dual light pulse. With 3 dual light pulse and 1 rocket launcher you deal 105 dps currently. So you will deal less dps, not much though. If you shoot sansha/bloods you should do about the same dps as now due to hitting the weakest resistance more often. Vs other targets it will deal a good deal less effective dps, though.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.02 23:58:00 - [1165] Edited by: Matroshka on 02/08/2007 23:59:24 Wish I could run some numbers for you but I am not sure on the math. The new Mal gets 2 bonuses to rocket damage as opposed to 1 damage bonus to lasers on the old model. Missiles also have the advantage of not using any cap and ability to change damage types, although on the Mal one of the bonuses is for EM only. edit: Aramendel took care of the math -------------
Agmamenon Exinferis Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.03 00:56:00 - [1166] I think this might be where my 3 accounts and CCP parts ways The Nos-nerf settles it for me personally, it seems pointless. I have never seen nos as overpowered, and I've been on both sides of it. I'm tired of training up skills for stuff that becomes useless (ref the T2 lottery) after spending my money, and time on it. I'm tired of the ever spiralling path of more and more content, while quality is not improved enough. And finally, I'm not a big fan of your entire pos-warfare concept. The reality for so many players now, is that we spend stretches of 2 and 6 and 12 and more hours sitting at pos'es, waiting for an enemy slip-up. Repping pos modules are virtually impossible without carriers or at least 2 logistics ships, 2 BS and tons of time. It gets really old, really really fast. I never decide stuff when angry, so I'll give it a day to think, but, yeah...I'll probably leave at this point. Good Fun CCP...it might not suit me anymore, but your effort was worth it, I had a blast! ( someone toss me a cigar, I won the game! ) Old friends In dark places Old scars On their faces One good friend Makes up for Ten bad ones Tenfold Amarr Victor!
Jonathan Xavier Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.03 01:19:00 - [1167] Can I have your stuff? Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis I think this might be where my 3 accounts and CCP parts ways The Nos-nerf settles it for me personally, it seems pointless. I have never seen nos as overpowered, and I've been on both sides of it. I'm tired of training up skills for stuff that becomes useless (ref the T2 lottery) after spending my money, and time on it. I'm tired of the ever spiralling path of more and more content, while quality is not improved enough. And finally, I'm not a big fan of your entire pos-warfare concept. The reality for so many players now, is that we spend stretches of 2 and 6 and 12 and more hours sitting at pos'es, waiting for an enemy slip-up. Repping pos modules are virtually impossible without carriers or at least 2 logistics ships, 2 BS and tons of time. It gets really old, really really fast. I never decide stuff when angry, so I'll give it a day to think, but, yeah...I'll probably leave at this point. Good Fun CCP...it might not suit me anymore, but your effort was worth it, I had a blast! ( someone toss me a cigar, I won the game! )
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.03 01:38:00 - [1168] Edited by: Long Fang on 03/08/2007 01:39:03 Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Itburnz why not instead of nerfing nos dont you have them , have there own slot like the missile and turrent slots that way ships not nos neut specialized can only fit 1 or 2 nos. this way you dont need to change the effect of nos and fix the problem of people fitting a full rack of nos on ships like the domi. /signed I liked itburnz idea that much that i'm going to mention it again That sugestion doesn't change anything, bigger ships would still kill frigate's cap in 1 or 2 cycles with no drawback making wholle classes of ships completelly uselless (Inty's and AF's). A battleship has vastly superior energy systems to a frigate should it would make sense that it would be able to overwhelm a friagtes energy systems, secoundly regardless of NOS if you attack a battleship with a frigate it should kill you. The ooo NOS domis are overpowered agrument is pointless, if u know that a ship is likely to have lots of NOS then use tactics to get around it, EW, more range. take your pick. The point is atm countering NOS requires thought and experience, that is no longer the case. A Nosferatu (or vampire) drains the life from its victim to sustain itself, it doesn't stop cos it has the same amount of blood as its victim. At the end of the day theres plenty of ways round NOS even in little ships at present, you just have to be willing to think creatively. My frigate can't kill a BS is not an argument thats makes any sense at, of course it won;t you'd need a pack at which point said BS could only NOS 2 things(with this surgestion) leaving the rest of the pack un-molested.
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.03 01:48:00 - [1169] Enuf is enuf :-) No serious... READ THIS... this discussion getting ugly. 1) The people who tells us that everything a curse or gallente pilot wants to, he can also after the new patch... >> then WHY, WHY you want to change it ??? huh? 2) The people who fears Large NOS on a battleship (I repeat: BATTLESHIP), that kind of ship in every movie destroys everything almost alone... it's not for fun called large NOS, and NO, a battleship pilot don't want to be scrambled through a single Rifter for the whole day... it's called BATTLEship for a reason !!! It's called LARGE NOS for a reason. And believe it or not, I hate those ships, I don't even fly a NOS-Domi... my Domi (rest in peace) was fitted with a tank and gang support instead of the dan NOS. 3) CCP... please, stop nerfing. Some people said it already in here. They learnt from others fittings, they learnt from getting NOSed because of getting to close to a Domi, this is a lesson which I learnt also by myself. But there are also possibilites to withstand a NOS-Domi. Not even the Passive-Shield-Tank-Nerf was that hard. This NOS Nerf changes a lot of fittings, funny fittings, excellent fittings for absolutely no reason. Only because some incompetent (not even Noobs) wanna be professionals whined the whole day instead of train themselfs. The Domi has already been nerfed in speed together with the Phoon. And this was great, it really gave no reason a Battleship was flying that fast. It was a joke and it's history. 4)To everyone thinking after this the NOS-Domis will vanish. You're wrong, as I said in another posting, a Domi has the Powergrid and the CAP to maintain the Neuts. But all the smaller ships with great fittings haven't. 5) JUST DON'T DO IT THIS WAY CCP... IT's WRONG AND YOU NOW IT ! 6) Others said it before. The people who can think out of the box can also think about a method to get a NOS-Domi down. It happens, every day, NOS-Domis exploding and people are happy with their idea to get them down. THIS IS EVE! Stop being happy with this patch as it is... think for everyone and not only for your ship you currently flying... or should we nerf that dmn speed of the Vagabond... Stabber? Other Minmatar-Ships... should this also been nerfed? Or is just "standard" for Minmatar-Pilots that they are 5 times faster than everyone else, can deal every damage and can take quite good? Is it? NO, okey then stop... and CCP... your fans inside this game gave you some very good ideas to implement good solutions which are not "nerfing", they are just great. br speed
MEEATYOU Gallente Life Extermination	Posted - 2007.08.03 02:02:00 - [1170] Originally by: speedcat Enuf is enuf :-) No serious... READ THIS... this discussion getting ugly. 1) The people who tells us that everything a curse or gallente pilot wants to, he can also after the new patch... >> then WHY, WHY you want to change it ??? huh? 2) The people who fears Large NOS on a battleship (I repeat: BATTLESHIP), that kind of ship in every movie destroys everything almost alone... it's not for fun called large NOS, and NO, a battleship pilot don't want to be scrambled through a single Rifter for the whole day... it's called BATTLEship for a reason !!! It's called LARGE NOS for a reason. And believe it or not, I hate those ships, I don't even fly a NOS-Domi... my Domi (rest in peace) was fitted with a tank and gang support instead of the dan NOS. 3) CCP... please, stop nerfing. Some people said it already in here. They learnt from others fittings, they learnt from getting NOSed because of getting to close to a Domi, this is a lesson which I learnt also by myself. But there are also possibilites to withstand a NOS-Domi. Not even the Passive-Shield-Tank-Nerf was that hard. This NOS Nerf changes a lot of fittings, funny fittings, excellent fittings for absolutely no reason. Only because some incompetent (not even Noobs) wanna be professionals whined the whole day instead of train themselfs. The Domi has already been nerfed in speed together with the Phoon. And this was great, it really gave no reason a Battleship was flying that fast. It was a joke and it's history. 4)To everyone thinking after this the NOS-Domis will vanish. You're wrong, as I said in another posting, a Domi has the Powergrid and the CAP to maintain the Neuts. But all the smaller ships with great fittings haven't. 5) JUST DON'T DO IT THIS WAY CCP... IT's WRONG AND YOU NOW IT ! 6) Others said it before. The people who can think out of the box can also think about a method to get a NOS-Domi down. It happens, every day, NOS-Domis exploding and people are happy with their idea to get them down. THIS IS EVE! Stop being happy with this patch as it is... think for everyone and not only for your ship you currently flying... or should we nerf that dmn speed of the Vagabond... Stabber? Other Minmatar-Ships... should this also been nerfed? Or is just "standard" for Minmatar-Pilots that they are 5 times faster than everyone else, can deal every damage and can take quite good? Is it? NO, okey then stop... and CCP... your fans inside this game gave you some very good ideas to implement good solutions which are not "nerfing", they are just great. br speed I am in total agreement. I invested lots into the game, devoted hours training and working to get the perfect ship with NOS. Now, with 2 characters (On 2 Accounts) I want to petition to get compensation for me (And the rest of the professional, Non Whiners of EVE Association) so that maybe, just maybe, we might think about continuing to play. I wish that I had never heard of the game. When I started, it was fun, then the nerf happened to the shield tank, so I switched to Gallente. Now, it's their turn and personally, the game has become dull. Thank you CCP for wrecking your greatest creation. And if I hear a reply from a DEV, god help him for I will go up one side and down the other. Why am I replying to this again?

Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.03 02:09:00 - [1171] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Nosferatu Changes There still seem to be some confusion about the exact mechanics, so I'll try to clarify. Suppose you are in a ship with a capacitor capacity of 2000en and have 600en left (30%). Further suppose that you activate a Nosferatu on a ship with 350en out of 1000en left (35%). The Nosferatu can then transfer up to 5% of the targeted ships capacitor capacity (the difference between the charge percentages), i.e. up to 50en (5% of 1000en). If you're using a Heavy Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 120en, then the actual transfer amount is capped at the maximum 50en, leaving you with 650en (32.5%) and your opponent with 300en (30%). If you're using a Medium Nosferatu II with a transfer amount of 36en, then the transfer amount is not limited since 36en is below the maximum allowed transfer amount. This means that you end up with 636en (31.8%) and your opponent ends up with 350en - 36en = 314en (31.4%). A second Medium Nosferatu II would then not transfer anything since you now have a higher charge level than your opponent, but it would remain active (and not auto-deactivate). This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Migration to Neutralizers With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before. However then fitting requirements on neutralizers are higher than for nosferatus, so we are considering to lower the fitting requirements a bit (this might happen and it might now happen). Constructive feedback is useful as always. Another issue is that neutralizers are generally used in combinations with nosferatus to reclaim some most of the energy spent on neutralizers. After the change, cap warfare will become harder since you now have to expend energy yourself in order to drain an opponent. Notice that ships with a bonus to energy drain amount have a significant advantage when using neutralizers since they can neutralize a lot more energy in the target ship for the energy spent. The duration on the Neutralizers is also an important aspect. Currently the duration of neutralizers is twice that of nosferatus, which means that they hit harder but less often. There are trade offs either way whether we keep them hard hitting as now (kill cap fast) or move them closer to the frequency of nosferatus (kick 'em while they're down). Thanks for the clarifications. One interesting tweak to your system would be to not only make Neuts faster firing, but also NOS slower, and with drain per second remaining the same as currently. (I think it might even be worth experimenting with slowing NOS down so much that they get an "alpha strike" advantage over Neuts.) I'm not sure but I think this would partly address some of the concerns that have been brought up in the thread: - It restores -some- of NOS's offensive capability by virtue of its potential alpha strike, though unless the change were extreme it would still remain less offensive than now. - It makes Neuts more responsive, and better able to deal with a target's fast cap recharge or injectors. - It makes NOS and Neuts work a bit better together on single target then the system you've outlined. But it preserves the basic design you've come up with, and cap warfare would still take more thought and have severe drawbacks compared to the situation now. I have a hard time getting my brain around all the possible ramifications, but it could be worth considering. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
CoLe Blackblood Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.03 02:32:00 - [1172] After NOS I think missiles need looking into. Right now they fly too far and hit for too much damage, effectively destroying all targets within a given time.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.03 02:56:00 - [1173] Am I the only one that thinks that all the Gallente players complaining about the nos nerf actually supports the fact that it was imbalanced? -------------
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.03 02:58:00 - [1174] Originally by: Matroshka Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Bentula I love the changes. All of em. The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. The Amarr are meant to be self rightous, un-wavering highly arrogant and have unshakeable faith in there own abiltys. Variety is not the spice of life its HERESY. Khanid Kingdom description: "The Khanid Kingdom, also known as the Dark Amarr, was founded a few centuries ago when the last Amarr Emperor was chosen. Khanid was one of the royal heirs at the time and, in accordance with tradition, should have killed himself after failing to become emperor. This Khanid refused to do and split his vast domains from the Amarr Empire. The empire retaliated, but only managed to conquer some of the vulnerable outer regions from Khanid. The Kingdom still upholds many of the tradition of Amarr society, but has also wholeheartedly embraced the customs of others, mainly the Caldari. Many visitors to the Kingdom feel like it is a surreal mix of the Amarr and Caldari empires." There is of course one small problem with this, The ships have been around longer than the khanid chars/new back story. Therefore shouldn't the new chars fit there pre-existing ships rather than the other way round eh? Rather than re-writing three years of history.....
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.03 03:08:00 - [1175] Edited by: Matroshka on 03/08/2007 03:08:50 Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Matroshka Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Bentula I love the changes. All of em. The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. The Amarr are meant to be self rightous, un-wavering highly arrogant and have unshakeable faith in there own abiltys. Variety is not the spice of life its HERESY. Khanid Kingdom description: "The Khanid Kingdom, also known as the Dark Amarr, was founded a few centuries ago when the last Amarr Emperor was chosen. Khanid was one of the royal heirs at the time and, in accordance with tradition, should have killed himself after failing to become emperor. This Khanid refused to do and split his vast domains from the Amarr Empire. The empire retaliated, but only managed to conquer some of the vulnerable outer regions from Khanid. The Kingdom still upholds many of the tradition of Amarr society, but has also wholeheartedly embraced the customs of others, mainly the Caldari. Many visitors to the Kingdom feel like it is a surreal mix of the Amarr and Caldari empires." There is of course one small problem with this, The ships have been around longer than the khanid chars/new back story. Therefore shouldn't the new chars fit there pre-existing ships rather than the other way round eh? Rather than re-writing three years of history..... Basically the Khanid Kingdom was formed on heresy is what I was showing you. -------------
CoLe Blackblood Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.03 03:26:00 - [1176] Originally by: Matroshka Am I the only one that thinks that all the Gallente players complaining about the nos nerf actually supports the fact that it was imbalanced? most people crosstrain races
Natsuki Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.03 03:27:00 - [1177] Originally by: CoLe Blackblood After NOS I think missiles need looking into. Right now they fly too far and hit for too much damage, effectively destroying all targets within a given time. what are you smoking? ever seen heavy precision missiles hit a vaga for 0.0 damage? cause they do 99% of the time. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Sanilnar	Posted - 2007.08.03 03:35:00 - [1178] how aboput we just cut to the chase on this game and forget all the month by month nerfing... one you hit the end of the line (which is coming quite quicklly) and you finish nerfing, everything is just going to be back where it was and your going to start the entire nerfing process all over again.... So how about this. You cut your losses, either listen to what were trying to say, DO NOT BY ANY MEANS LET THIS PATCH GO LIVE and find a new solution, or just end the game. Please, please please please please dont end up like SOE. Star Wars Galaxies was by far the best game ever, but SOE refused to listen and thought they knew best. They were very wrong, and perhaps you need to rethink this as well.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.08.03 03:40:00 - [1179] Originally by: William DeMeo learn to fail less. Tier 3 BS's can easily kill a dominix and so can a properly setup blasterthron. If you can't set one up thats not my problem, but the game mechanics to do it are already there, no reason to completely REMOVE a weapon (because basically thats what this is about) because some people can't find a way to beat it. EVE isn't hello kitty online you know And by the way, blasterthrons are not crap I can build a generic T2 Domi tank that can tank any BS in the game long enough to kill the opposing ship. Nos simply feeds my tank until theirs is dry. The only way it doesn't work is if the enemy BS has more nos. CCP isn't removing or ruining nos. They're redefining it's role in PVP. Now it will be a defensive module instead of offensive, and neutralizers will now have a greater role in PVP. There is zero downside to this change. I fly plenty of ships that are supposed 'nos boats': Ishtar, Vexor and Dominix chief among them, and IMO all three ships will be just fine after the nos nerf. I also think that the Curse and Pilgrim will be just fine. Maybe the days of the super insane nanoCurse are gone, but I really don't feel bad about that in the least. They (the Pilgrim and Curse will still be very effective, but they won't be the solo machines that they are now. Again, not a problem. As for the Khanid ships requiring missile skills: LOL. Who cares. Skill 'em up or don't use them. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.03 04:15:00 - [1180] Originally by: Matroshka Edited by: Matroshka on 03/08/2007 03:08:50 Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Matroshka Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Bentula I love the changes. All of em. The new khanid ships are awesome, finally bringing some variety to amarr. The Amarr are meant to be self rightous, un-wavering highly arrogant and have unshakeable faith in there own abiltys. Variety is not the spice of life its HERESY. Khanid Kingdom description: "The Khanid Kingdom, also known as the Dark Amarr, was founded a few centuries ago when the last Amarr Emperor was chosen. Khanid was one of the royal heirs at the time and, in accordance with tradition, should have killed himself after failing to become emperor. This Khanid refused to do and split his vast domains from the Amarr Empire. The empire retaliated, but only managed to conquer some of the vulnerable outer regions from Khanid. The Kingdom still upholds many of the tradition of Amarr society, but has also wholeheartedly embraced the customs of others, mainly the Caldari. Many visitors to the Kingdom feel like it is a surreal mix of the Amarr and Caldari empires." There is of course one small problem with this, The ships have been around longer than the khanid chars/new back story. Therefore shouldn't the new chars fit there pre-existing ships rather than the other way round eh? Rather than re-writing three years of history..... Basically the Khanid Kingdom was formed on heresy is what I was showing you. Well the kingdom can have its heresy tho doesn't change the fact the ships are older than the chars/kingdom, can only guess the ships are loyal but the ppl are not :P

Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.03 04:47:00 - [1181] Originally by: Natsuki Originally by: CoLe Blackblood After NOS I think missiles need looking into. Right now they fly too far and hit for too much damage, effectively destroying all targets within a given time. what are you smoking? ever seen heavy precision missiles hit a vaga for 0.0 damage? cause they do 99% of the time. I doubt he has, since a lot of Vaga pilots never get hit with Heavy Missiles at all. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
s1n1ster m1n1ster Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.03 06:11:00 - [1182] Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis I think this might be where my 3 accounts and CCP parts ways I love it when people react to the point that they sound crazy.... if you quit eve over this then the universe is better for it. CCP have made a great game... and most of them play so let's all cut them some slack. I'm sure they will make the right choices for their game. Bring back duel MWD
Kaker Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.03 06:16:00 - [1183] CCP saddens me much :( Nosf nerf is disapointing Main Entry: nosferatu Part of Speech: n Definition: a hideously ugly vampire Etymology: Slavonic nosufur-atu Vampire suck on things to live! not till they match the other ones blood level ******** in my opinion [url=http://www.eve-triumvirate.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=4059] [/url]
Jita Johnny	Posted - 2007.08.03 06:33:00 - [1184] Edited by: Jita Johnny on 03/08/2007 06:36:38 Edited by: Jita Johnny on 03/08/2007 06:33:13 The NOS nerfs just seems like too much, too fast. CCP has a history of pushing out sweeping and unbalancing game changes without testing them thoroughly. Titan DD capability, t2 ammo, and the new battlecruiser shield recharge times are some of the most obvious ones. And then it takes months for them to get around to fixing it. I would hope that they would reconsider a change to NOS which dwarfs all of those. This change is going to make it ineffective to fit more than one NOS in a spare high slot, and even that won't be very often. Maybe CCP intended energy vampires to be a very rarely used mod. But given that the way the game has evolved around them, it would be more prudent to make any balances with their current place within EVE in mind, rather than trying to force players to adhere to CCP's "Vision".
Mortuus Minmatar Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:03:00 - [1185] Oh noes, I can no play without Nos, I have no skills. Or...Wait, none of my ships use nos. Sweet, so I don't have to worry about it so much. Good no more "hmmm, that ships probably has nos, I don't use them, time to move along and leave it alone" decisions. All you noobs who needed nos on your ships to live are fresh meat. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:18:00 - [1186] Originally by: Natsuki Originally by: CoLe Blackblood After NOS I think missiles need looking into. Right now they fly too far and hit for too much damage, effectively destroying all targets within a given time. what are you smoking? ever seen heavy precision missiles hit a vaga for 0.0 damage? cause they do 99% of the time. That's because speed tanking hasn't been nerfed enough yet. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Tsunamisan	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:32:00 - [1187] What i would like to know is with th Khanid bonuses why isn't the Curse receiving a upgrade? Specially with the NOS changes it will pretty much be a ship that isn't used for its bonuses rather just a combat role without the NOS. since it gets the range and nos yield bonus. Unless the bonus was to allow the ship to draw past the hard cap with th new nos rules IE: your cap is 30% so you cant draw past 30% on your enemy but get a bonus that allows you to draw more thus making it more like but not equal to the nos before the patch.
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.03 08:36:00 - [1188] I think everyone has just grown tired of the nerfing, and the people who argue for change are the ones who will move to *****ing about the next thing that needs to be nerfed because frankly they are never happy with the way the game is - you know their kind. When this is done they will complain about the NEUTs, or the Damps, or the speedtank, or minmitar ships, or caldari passive tank. Devs need to do two things, 1.) stop listening to everyone and 2.) leave the bloody game alone. So far they got part 1 down real well - based on their NOS solution its obvious they are not listening. For every person that likes the NOS change there are probably at least 2 that don't. And frankly I am becoming sick and tired of the dominix being one of the prime ships that ruins most things in Eve (no offense to Domi pilots). Devs have to rethink the bloody Spacepotato not game mechanics.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:17:00 - [1189] CCP has let this game grow too quickly, and out of control. A little over a year ago, things were fine.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:23:00 - [1190] Originally by: Matroshka Am I the only one that thinks that all the Gallente players complaining about the nos nerf actually supports the fact that it was imbalanced? LoL. Yeah thats exactly what i thought by the time i came to your post. The amount of people stating they specifically trained nosships to the exclusion of every other ships of that race is staggering, ofc all of them say nos are fine or should be changed in a less drastic way. Newsflash. Nospilot is not a specialization in eve. You can be a blastershippilot or a minnie speedfreak and complain all you want when the nerfbat hits you, but dont pretend that training a rank 2 skill to lvl 5 makes you the specialist with nos. And if you trained amarr cruiser 5, just to fly the curse and pilgrim, without even getting some laser skills, yes this nerf was for you. Its a nerf for all those fotm people that never even would think about adapting their fittings in order to fly a ship they like. This nos change wont stop any serious curse pilot one bit. If you think you got it hard try flying a blastership like the deimos a go up vs a neut curse, happy times.

Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:26:00 - [1191] I think the main-problem with people is, that they get used to their cookie-cutter-setups and don't want them to be changed. Sure, when something gets nerfed, than it's frustrating. Like I'm a bit frustrated as I'm training Amarr Cruiser LvL 5 atm for flying a Curse, now that I can fly all of the fancy T2-Stuff Gallente is offering. But guess what... I'm playing this game 10-12 hours a day atm, and I sure will find a way to make the Curse powerful enough to have fun with it. I like the changes and I'm looking forward into some more interesting fights. It was impossible for a small gang of 5 AF/Inties to engage a Battleship with 2+ Heavy NOS. Those days are gone, and I'm waiting for the first Battleships to explode beeing attacked by a small frigsized gang as it should be. When the Battleship-Pilot is smart enough, then he'll have fitted Neutralizers or just not flying solo. I think the main point is: EvE is not a "Solo Space Video Game". MMO means, that you've to form up in gangs! Soloing around in a Curse/Domi/Typhoon/whatever NOS-ship will become more uneasy, but it will still be possible. .
Angelus Fade Amarr The Black Ops	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:40:00 - [1192] I think the NOS nerf is to much and they did not think about all the consequences. Not tested enough. ------- Angelus Fade ------- I once was a badass fighter for the Amarr Empire, but they screwed me over and de-fanged me, so currently I am just a fluffy puppy space miner.... until the time
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:41:00 - [1193] Originally by: s1n1ster m1n1ster Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis I think this might be where my 3 accounts and CCP parts ways I love it when people react to the point that they sound crazy.... if you quit eve over this then the universe is better for it. CCP have made a great game... and most of them play so let's all cut them some slack. I'm sure they will make the right choices for their game. Bring back duel MWD Hah! you're vagabond isn't fast enough is it?
MinRray Minmatar Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:45:00 - [1194] Edited by: MinRray on 03/08/2007 09:45:52 This complete revamps of some ships will make some players happy and upset some players ... give or take the numbers should be equal . So atm u are curently pleasing only half of those pilots ... Why not just make Khanid Mk2 as you want it atm BUT leave the Mk1 ( curent modules ) still in production ... Yeah im nuts ... Yeah lotsa work ... BUT you could make Mk2 of other ships ... Yeah im nuts :) BUT think of the posibilities ... :D
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:57:00 - [1195] If Nosferatu mechanics really must be changed, then I still say they should deal with cap recharge rate rather than actual cap. Look, there are multiple ways to increase cap, and multiple ways to increase cap recharge. Obviously you want to make neutralizers more prominent, which is fine so long as the modules are adjusted so they make sense for most ships, not just the battleships. What we're still missing is an offensive option for reducing an opponent's cap recharge. Why not stop having two modules so closely related, and change Nosferatus so they fill the void? Keeping cap drain for the Nos but imposing arbitrary restrictions that make no sense is a waste of effort. Why not ADD something to the game instead of only taking away? If you deal in cap recharge percentages, a larger ship doesn't necessarily have the advantage over everything smaller anymore. Small ships, even with a lower recharge percentage effect on their vampires, can be just as effective in groups as large ships. Come on, put those game-design minds to work and come up with something positive!
Don Shadow Spectrum Solutions INC Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:18:00 - [1196] Originally by: speedcat Enuf is enuf :-) No serious... READ THIS... this discussion getting ugly. 1) The people who tells us that everything a curse or gallente pilot wants to, he can also after the new patch... >> then WHY, WHY you want to change it ??? huh? 2) The people who fears Large NOS on a battleship (I repeat: BATTLESHIP), that kind of ship in every movie destroys everything almost alone... it's not for fun called large NOS, and NO, a battleship pilot don't want to be scrambled through a single Rifter for the whole day... it's called BATTLEship for a reason !!! It's called LARGE NOS for a reason. And believe it or not, I hate those ships, I don't even fly a NOS-Domi... my Domi (rest in peace) was fitted with a tank and gang support instead of the dan NOS. 3) CCP... please, stop nerfing. Some people said it already in here. They learnt from others fittings, they learnt from getting NOSed because of getting to close to a Domi, this is a lesson which I learnt also by myself. But there are also possibilites to withstand a NOS-Domi. Not even the Passive-Shield-Tank-Nerf was that hard. This NOS Nerf changes a lot of fittings, funny fittings, excellent fittings for absolutely no reason. Only because some incompetent (not even Noobs) wanna be professionals whined the whole day instead of train themselfs. The Domi has already been nerfed in speed together with the Phoon. And this was great, it really gave no reason a Battleship was flying that fast. It was a joke and it's history. 4)To everyone thinking after this the NOS-Domis will vanish. You're wrong, as I said in another posting, a Domi has the Powergrid and the CAP to maintain the Neuts. But all the smaller ships with great fittings haven't. 5) JUST DON'T DO IT THIS WAY CCP... IT's WRONG AND YOU NOW IT ! 6) Others said it before. The people who can think out of the box can also think about a method to get a NOS-Domi down. It happens, every day, NOS-Domis exploding and people are happy with their idea to get them down. THIS IS EVE! Stop being happy with this patch as it is... think for everyone and not only for your ship you currently flying... or should we nerf that dmn speed of the Vagabond... Stabber? Other Minmatar-Ships... should this also been nerfed? Or is just "standard" for Minmatar-Pilots that they are 5 times faster than everyone else, can deal every damage and can take quite good? Is it? NO, okey then stop... and CCP... your fans inside this game gave you some very good ideas to implement good solutions which are not "nerfing", they are just great. br speed Look here, if i ever need to play a "balanced" game, i'll go and play chess!! until then i like eve just how it is right now, "unbalanced". What balance we will get next month? damps? vaga? LET THOSE **ING NOSES ALONE! @CCP your main problem right now, is the *ing LAG!!! try at least to reduce him, not to make him bigger!
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:25:00 - [1197] Originally by: Mack Dorgeans If Nosferatu mechanics really must be changed, then I still say they should deal with cap recharge rate rather than actual cap. Look, there are multiple ways to increase cap, and multiple ways to increase cap recharge. Obviously you want to make neutralizers more prominent, which is fine so long as the modules are adjusted so they make sense for most ships, not just the battleships. What we're still missing is an offensive option for reducing an opponent's cap recharge. Why not stop having two modules so closely related, and change Nosferatus so they fill the void? Keeping cap drain for the Nos but imposing arbitrary restrictions that make no sense is a waste of effort. Why not ADD something to the game instead of only taking away? If you deal in cap recharge percentages, a larger ship doesn't necessarily have the advantage over everything smaller anymore. Small ships, even with a lower recharge percentage effect on their vampires, can be just as effective in groups as large ships. Come on, put those game-design minds to work and come up with something positive! Caprecharge is utterly useless in todays battles. You either have capcharges, or you have run out of em and die. For all i care there could be a module setting cap recharge to 0 for an enemy ship, it wouldnt make even a minuscle difference to ships equipped with a injector. Well actually it would make a difference, but it would still be useless. Caprecharge is simply to small to even be remotly able to run offensive and defensive modules together on BS.
akim	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:25:00 - [1198] People are focussing too much on the NOS nerf, and not enough on the fact that the khanid changes are somewhat rubbish. NOS will be nerfed, doubt anything will change that. The flavour of the month whiners, have won yet another round of destroying the diversity of this game, 1 module/ship at a time. But please don't ruin the damnation, it's not needed, it's already the worst fleet command ship in the game, why nerf it even further? By removing the PG, you'll gimp 1 of the 2 things that it actualy is good at. Running gang mods and tanking. I'd like to see the HAM bonus changed to a general missile bonus as well. Or boost the speed of HAMs without changing flight time, so they can actually be used. The speed should be boosted enough, to put them in 20-30km range depending on skill. This would just about match light missile range, and the added speed would enable them to actually hit something before it's out of range.
Baynex Amarr Lasciate Ogne Speranza	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:51:00 - [1199] Originally by: Mortuus Oh noes, I can no play without Nos, I have no skills. Or...Wait, none of my ships use nos. Sweet, so I don't have to worry about it so much. Good no more "hmmm, that ships probably has nos, I don't use them, time to move along and leave it alone" decisions. All you noobs who needed nos on your ships to live are fresh meat. Yeah, tell that to people who pilot ships like the pilgrim and curse, who used it not as a defensive device, but as a weapon. How would you like it if we nerfed all gunnery by making it unable to deal damage to structure. ñ~Baynex
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:53:00 - [1200] Edited by: Mack Dorgeans on 03/08/2007 10:53:22 Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Mack Dorgeans If Nosferatu mechanics really must be changed, then I still say they should deal with cap recharge rate rather than actual cap. Look, there are multiple ways to increase cap, and multiple ways to increase cap recharge. Obviously you want to make neutralizers more prominent, which is fine so long as the modules are adjusted so they make sense for most ships, not just the battleships. What we're still missing is an offensive option for reducing an opponent's cap recharge. Why not stop having two modules so closely related, and change Nosferatus so they fill the void? Keeping cap drain for the Nos but imposing arbitrary restrictions that make no sense is a waste of effort. Why not ADD something to the game instead of only taking away? If you deal in cap recharge percentages, a larger ship doesn't necessarily have the advantage over everything smaller anymore. Small ships, even with a lower recharge percentage effect on their vampires, can be just as effective in groups as large ships. Come on, put those game-design minds to work and come up with something positive! Caprecharge is utterly useless in todays battles. You either have capcharges, or you have run out of em and die. For all i care there could be a module setting cap recharge to 0 for an enemy ship, it wouldnt make even a minuscle difference to ships equipped with a injector. Well actually it would make a difference, but it would still be useless. Caprecharge is simply to small to even be remotly able to run offensive and defensive modules together on BS. Maybe it's useless to some, but not to everyone, just like any tactic. Sometimes you just can't fit a large enough booster. Besides, given a choice, I'd rather have a module that actually DOES SOMETHING when I turn it on, instead of one that will MAYBE do something, depending upon conditions that you can't verify, since we don't have a targeted ship cap readout.

Baynex Amarr Lasciate Ogne Speranza	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:54:00 - [1201] WARNING LOGIC PRESENT BELOW THIS LINE! --------------------------------------------- Nos is a weapon, make it use a hardpoint! ñ~Baynex
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.08.03 10:58:00 - [1202] ok people stop saying nos is fine it's really not hell i even had a lil play with it with a corp mate same ship different fittings i decided to go with a high damage dual injected lotsa guns kinda thing to start with.... i ran out of cap charges while being nosed and slowly died then i went with 7 nos and 1 mega pulse against 5 nos and 3 pulse i'll tell you what 7 nos wins out right with cap and tank to spare along with a cargo hold full of cap boosters nos shouldn't be the way to kill anything it's slow dull no fun and i even went afk for a while to come back to an almost dead corp mate asking me to stop shooting as he couldn't do anything about it (yea i scrammed him as i was bored) now it did take a while to suck him dry with nos but if you want to kill cap use neuts it's what they are ment for as for nos-domi sure they are evil but a nos-baddon with a couple of large smart bombs 6 heavy nos and 2 smart bombs wins out right since you can't be out tanked or out nosed and his drones go pretty quickly too (though i've never tried it because it's no fun to fly)
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.03 11:16:00 - [1203] Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:22:40 Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:21:12 Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:20:39 A while back when CCP first mentioned it was thinking about nerfing NOS down the road(not so far down the road it turned out), you mentioned one possible nerf as making NOS sig radius penalized. This seems to me both a far fairer solution, but a more elegant one as well. I think it's fair to say that 90% of the whining about NOS is due to heavy NOS. That's because nosferatu are the only offensive highslot module that are completely unaffected by the target's qualities. Sig radius, velocity, tracking, none of it matters. Unlike missiles or turrets, it's just as effective against a tiny interceptor doing 5km/s in orbit, and a huge battleship doing 10m/s. That becomes the biggest problem when the disparity between the target's ship class and the module size of the NOS is largest, which means heavy NOS. That means that a heavy nosferatu is 100% effective against anything from a frigate up to a dreadnought. Since you're draining the same amount of cap per module activation in fact, that makes heavy nos far more effective against smaller ships than it is against larger ones, comparatively. You can blow away the cap of anything BC sized or smaller pretty quickly, and with it MWD and repping capability, if not weapon use as well. So instead of overreacting and turning one of the most prominent modules in EVE all but useless, why not take the obvious solution that has been raised again and again in the "nerf NOS" threads and simply make nosferatu dependent on sig radius? A heavy diminishing nos will drain the full amount from a target with a sig radius of 400 or larger, but against a target the size of a thorax, or even more so a crow, it will drain far less capacitor while its activation cost for the battleship remains the same regardless. The proposed solution changes none of this. Instead of fitting a large NOS on every battleship, players will stick on a heavy neut instead. It's still not sig penalized, which means it's still as effective as absolutely destroying the cap of any smaller ships that try to engage. Smart PvPers will still fit cap boosters because it'll let them field more durable tanks. The reason NOS are so ubiquitous in that last empty slot on pretty much all battleships is because they're effective against everything. It means that ratting ships can very effectively deal with things like interceptor tacklers, or even hostile HACs, because a battleship-sized NOS will nuke their cap. Make nos sig radius penalized and all of a sudden it is like other offensive modules only completely effective against ships the same class or larger. It no longer becomes the no-brainer choice to fill the final slot on a battleship but a module that has to be weighed against the other options. To quote the devblog, NOS are "too powerful since there is no compromise involved." IT goes on to bring up the example of a battleship using its NOS against a frigate. The sig radius solution solves that exact issue. Even if CCP doesn't think this is the right way to go, I'd at least like to know why. After all, they were considering as a solution a while back. Why did they think it was insufficient to fix NOS?
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 11:32:00 - [1204] Originally by: torN Deception Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:22:40 Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:21:12 Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:20:39 A while back when CCP first mentioned it was thinking about nerfing NOS down the road(not so far down the road it turned out), you mentioned one possible nerf as making NOS sig radius penalized. This seems to me both a far fairer solution, but a more elegant one as well. I think it's fair to say that 90% of the whining about NOS is due to heavy NOS. That's because nosferatu are the only offensive highslot module that are completely unaffected by the target's qualities. Sig radius, velocity, tracking, none of it matters. Unlike missiles or turrets, it's just as effective against a tiny interceptor doing 5km/s in orbit, and a huge battleship doing 10m/s. That becomes the biggest problem when the disparity between the target's ship class and the module size of the NOS is largest, which means heavy NOS. That means that a heavy nosferatu is 100% effective against anything from a frigate up to a dreadnought. Since you're draining the same amount of cap per module activation in fact, that makes heavy nos far more effective against smaller ships than it is against larger ones, comparatively. You can blow away the cap of anything BC sized or smaller pretty quickly, and with it MWD and repping capability, if not weapon use as well. So instead of overreacting and turning one of the most prominent modules in EVE all but useless, why not take the obvious solution that has been raised again and again in the "nerf NOS" threads and simply make nosferatu dependent on sig radius? A heavy diminishing nos will drain the full amount from a target with a sig radius of 400 or larger, but against a target the size of a thorax, or even more so a crow, it will drain far less capacitor while its activation cost for the battleship remains the same regardless. The proposed solution changes none of this. Instead of fitting a large NOS on every battleship, players will stick on a heavy neut instead. It's still not sig penalized, which means it's still as effective as absolutely destroying the cap of any smaller ships that try to engage. Smart PvPers will still fit cap boosters because it'll let them field more durable tanks. The reason NOS are so ubiquitous in that last empty slot on pretty much all battleships is because they're effective against everything. It means that ratting ships can very effectively deal with things like interceptor tacklers, or even hostile HACs, because a battleship-sized NOS will nuke their cap. Make nos sig radius penalized and all of a sudden it is like other offensive modules only completely effective against ships the same class or larger. It no longer becomes the no-brainer choice to fill the final slot on a battleship but a module that has to be weighed against the other options. To quote the devblog, NOS are "too powerful since there is no compromise involved." IT goes on to bring up the example of a battleship using its NOS against a frigate. The sig radius solution solves that exact issue. Even if CCP doesn't think this is the right way to go, I'd at least like to know why. After all, they were considering as a solution a while back. Why did they think it was insufficient to fix NOS? Yeah but the thing is though if they do that they'd need to take a serious look at interceptors since basically nothing but nos can defeat it, but if the nos has gotta get nerfed I'd rather see this happen or just make nos increase sig radius. This nos nerf is a serious overkill and not necessary in any way, shape or form. I really hope CCP read some of these posts. Got some good suggestions that'd be alot more fair then just completely screwing up nos. Yarr
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 11:41:00 - [1205] Originally by: William DeMeo Yeah but the thing is though if they do that they'd need to take a serious look at interceptors since basically nothing but nos can defeat it, but if the nos has gotta get nerfed I'd rather see this happen or just make nos increase sig radius. This nos nerf is a serious overkill and not necessary in any way, shape or form. I really hope CCP read some of these posts. Got some good suggestions that'd be alot more fair then just completely screwing up nos. Really? Nothing than nos can defeat an interceptor? Sensor dampers, neut, there are several anti-inty ships out there. That the nos was a catch-all solution to a number of threats AND increased your own cap at the same time was one of the reasons it was unbalanced. As for the sig radius sugestion, it wasn't used probably because the moment a smaller ship used a MWD for anything it would be sucked dry.
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.03 11:44:00 - [1206] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok people stop saying nos is fine it's really not hell i even had a lil play with it with a corp mate same ship different fittings i decided to go with a high damage dual injected lotsa guns kinda thing to start with.... i ran out of cap charges while being nosed and slowly died then i went with 7 nos and 1 mega pulse against 5 nos and 3 pulse i'll tell you what 7 nos wins out right with cap and tank to spare along with a cargo hold full of cap boosters fly) What ships and what fittings? You're in the worst case scenario since you're doing this with amarr: he's going to tank your damage types very well and you've going to be the most vulnerable of any race to NOS. A raven or maelstrom, even a blasterthron, would have blown him away. Even then, unless you were in the worst case of the worst scenarios and were in abaddons, two heavy cap boosters should be enough to sustain your guns. Besides, if your opponent had fit guns instead and two heavy injectors of his own, he could have run a dual-rep setup with guns blazing and blown you away even faster.
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.08.03 11:59:00 - [1207] Originally by: Gawain Hill ok people stop saying nos is fine it's really not hell i even had a lil play with it with a corp mate same ship different fittings i decided to go with a high damage dual injected lotsa guns kinda thing to start with.... i ran out of cap charges while being nosed and slowly died then i went with 7 nos and 1 mega pulse against 5 nos and 3 pulse i'll tell you what 7 nos wins out right with cap and tank to spare along with a cargo hold full of cap boosters nos shouldn't be the way to kill anything it's slow dull no fun and i even went afk for a while to come back to an almost dead corp mate asking me to stop shooting as he couldn't do anything about it (yea i scrammed him as i was bored) now it did take a while to suck him dry with nos but if you want to kill cap use neuts it's what they are ment for as for nos-domi sure they are evil but a nos-baddon with a couple of large smart bombs 6 heavy nos and 2 smart bombs wins out right since you can't be out tanked or out nosed and his drones go pretty quickly too (though i've never tried it because it's no fun to fly) and who would have won that fight if one of you had fitted more guns and less NOS and engaged from outside 25km?
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 12:10:00 - [1208] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: William DeMeo Yeah but the thing is though if they do that they'd need to take a serious look at interceptors since basically nothing but nos can defeat it, but if the nos has gotta get nerfed I'd rather see this happen or just make nos increase sig radius. This nos nerf is a serious overkill and not necessary in any way, shape or form. I really hope CCP read some of these posts. Got some good suggestions that'd be alot more fair then just completely screwing up nos. Really? Nothing than nos can defeat an interceptor? Sensor dampers, neut, there are several anti-inty ships out there. That the nos was a catch-all solution to a number of threats AND increased your own cap at the same time was one of the reasons it was unbalanced. As for the sig radius sugestion, it wasn't used probably because the moment a smaller ship used a MWD for anything it would be sucked dry. Damps don't kill inty's, neuts count as nos in this case. Yarr
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 12:13:00 - [1209] Originally by: Natsuki Originally by: CoLe Blackblood After NOS I think missiles need looking into. Right now they fly too far and hit for too much damage, effectively destroying all targets within a given time. what are you smoking? ever seen heavy precision missiles hit a vaga for 0.0 damage? cause they do 99% of the time. I think he was being ironic Yarr
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.03 12:29:00 - [1210] Originally by: William DeMeo Damps don't kill inty's, neuts count as nos in this case. A single unbonused t2 RSD is going to bring a LRT V crow to a lock range of about 15 km, and an orbit inside that if it doesn't want to worry about losing lock. Two RSDs brings it inside web range, and it's bye-bye crow. It's even worse for other interceptors with shorter base targeting ranges. Damps themselves may not kill intys, but it forces them to either choose between losing the tackle or putting their ships in far greater danger.

Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.03 12:36:00 - [1211] Zealot Ohmpf +Powergrid Armageddon Ohmpf +Cpu ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Vrikshaka Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.08.03 12:45:00 - [1212] Sorry if this suggestion has already been made: Add skills for cap drain mods. To me it defies all logic that there should be no skill at all to influence nos/neuts. They are weapons and all other weapons have corresponding skills that improve their performance. As it is, a noob with Energy Emission Systems III can use a heavy nos just as effectively as someone who has been specialising exclusively in the nos/drones tactic for years. It just doesn't make sense. I'm fine with the way in which nos is being nerfed, but I think it needs further balancing. Skills for cap drain mods would solve this elegantly - while at the same time acknowledging the nos/drones tactic and giving new means to those who choose to spend their skill training time on it. My suggestion would be to keep the nerf as it is, but introduce skills which would reduce it's effect: -one skill which allows nos to transfer more than the cap charge of the aggressing ship, by some % per skill level. Not so much that nos could totally drain the target's cap, but maybe to at least 50% of the aggressor's cap charge level (with skill lvl V). -one skill that would lower the cap use of neuts. Make them high level skills so that people can't train them without sacrificing something else, maybe with for instance Signal Suppression as a model. Sensor Dampeners aren't all that uber for people that don't have any skills for them, but very powerful for those who train Signal Suppression IV/V and Sensor Linking V - which takes a good amount of time away from other skill training. Let it be the same way with nos. As an example, the Curse right now (after nerf) is just a little too tough to fly. Sure, one can use injectors and more neuts, but it's just too easy to get totally drained oneself and very quickly become a total sitting duck. With skills, those that specialise in flying it could tip that balance somewhat, without it ever having to again become as all-powerful as before the nerf. Again: nos/neuts are weapons, and all other weapons are dependant on skills. That there should be no skills for cap drain mods just doesn't make any sense.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.03 12:45:00 - [1213] Originally by: Perry Zealot Ohmpf + 90Powergrid Armageddon Ohmpf +30Cpu
Angelus Fade Amarr The Black Ops	Posted - 2007.08.03 13:12:00 - [1214] If I read this topic I think CCP will lose a massive ammount of players due to this nerf... ------- Angelus Fade ------- I once was a badass fighter for the Amarr Empire, but they screwed me over and de-fanged me, so currently I am just a fluffy puppy space miner.... until the time
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.03 13:20:00 - [1215] Lets see who will leave EvE: -Gallente easy mode nos/drone pilots -Amarr Recon Alts with curses on their skillplan -Amarr turret-only khanid lovers with too much ego Can i have their stuff? Now lets see who will stay: -Amarr loyalists who sticked with amarr hoping for balance -New players who picked amarr -Skilled Pilots who know other tricks then orbit/damp -Me ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 13:36:00 - [1216] Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: William DeMeo Yeah but the thing is though if they do that they'd need to take a serious look at interceptors since basically nothing but nos can defeat it, but if the nos has gotta get nerfed I'd rather see this happen or just make nos increase sig radius. This nos nerf is a serious overkill and not necessary in any way, shape or form. I really hope CCP read some of these posts. Got some good suggestions that'd be alot more fair then just completely screwing up nos. Really? Nothing than nos can defeat an interceptor? Sensor dampers, neut, there are several anti-inty ships out there. That the nos was a catch-all solution to a number of threats AND increased your own cap at the same time was one of the reasons it was unbalanced. As for the sig radius sugestion, it wasn't used probably because the moment a smaller ship used a MWD for anything it would be sucked dry. Damps don't kill inty's, neuts count as nos in this case. Really, you are trully an expert in this game, I bow to your superior logic and knowledge! /sarcasm 1: Interceptors have crappy lock ranges, one skilled or two normal damps will force the interceptor to flee or close into web range. Do you know what happens to a webbed interceptor?!? 2: No a neut is nothing like a nos because not only a neut is harder to fit but takes away your cap at the same time as it takes away theirs, has pretty much the same counters as the nos currently has and will also be countered by the new nos version. So its not an automatic module for that last high slot...
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 13:49:00 - [1217] Hey, dumbass. An inty pilot with an IQ of 2 will never allow themselves to get into web range since, YES, they do die to webs. But they also do 5km/s. So all you can do with damps is make inty's run away, not kill it. So I said, damps do not kill inty's, do they now? Also, neuts do exactly the same thing as nos but less well. So in this particular case, I will count them as nos's as they are indeed effective for inty killing (though they suck for everything else) Thanks for not thinking yourself and reading my post. bai. Yarr
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 13:58:00 - [1218] Originally by: William DeMeo Hey, dumbass. An inty pilot with an IQ of 2 will never allow themselves to get into web range since, YES, they do die to webs. But they also do 5km/s. So all you can do with damps is make inty's run away, not kill it. So I said, damps do not kill inty's, do they now? Also, neuts do exactly the same thing as nos but less well. So in this particular case, I will count them as nos's as they are indeed effective for inty killing (though they suck for everything else) Thanks for not thinking yourself and reading my post. bai. Damn you really are a ****** aren't you? What good is an inty that can't lock you let alone tackle?!?! Who cares if you killed him or not, you're big bad BS is now safe to go wherever you wan't. And you didn't said anything about killing the inty in your original post, you said that only a nos could "defeat" it. An interceptor who can't fullfil its role is defeated, doesn't mater if its dead or not.
Viashivan Amarr FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:01:00 - [1219] Edited by: Viashivan on 03/08/2007 14:01:46 I'm fine with the NOS nerf. The module simply united too many advantages for next to no drawback. Still I think that for ships that have a bonus for using nos (namely bloodraider and amarr recons) another solutions should be found. The argument simply nos other hostiles around und use neuts on the primary target is not a fair argument. Because that intentionally limits the ships usage to a small number of situations. Furthermore after this change ships with nos bonuses are not consistent to the nos module anymore. What is the point of having a bonus for cap drainage, when you simply reach the point faster where no cap is drained? Via
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:01:00 - [1220] Just strange that a nos takes mostly more than 1 cycle to kill an inty¦s cap while a neut kills it instantly and then call nos overpowered. Large named nos eats 120cap/12s at 25km range Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) So a L named neut kills 5x (!) times more cap than a nos and it isnt overpowered??? 3 of those damage active tanked ships in 2-3 cycles very hard so you need 5 L named nos to counter 1 L named neut and on top of that at 30% cap of your target, he can neut you but you cant nos him. Where is the logic behind this crap? Ship lovers click here

Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:04:00 - [1221] Originally by: Phaedruss Originally by: Gawain Hill ok people stop saying nos is fine it's really not hell i even had a lil play with it with a corp mate same ship different fittings i decided to go with a high damage dual injected lotsa guns kinda thing to start with.... i ran out of cap charges while being nosed and slowly died then i went with 7 nos and 1 mega pulse against 5 nos and 3 pulse i'll tell you what 7 nos wins out right with cap and tank to spare along with a cargo hold full of cap boosters nos shouldn't be the way to kill anything it's slow dull no fun and i even went afk for a while to come back to an almost dead corp mate asking me to stop shooting as he couldn't do anything about it (yea i scrammed him as i was bored) now it did take a while to suck him dry with nos but if you want to kill cap use neuts it's what they are ment for as for nos-domi sure they are evil but a nos-baddon with a couple of large smart bombs 6 heavy nos and 2 smart bombs wins out right since you can't be out tanked or out nosed and his drones go pretty quickly too (though i've never tried it because it's no fun to fly) and who would have won that fight if one of you had fitted more guns and less NOS and engaged from outside 25km? the guy who dosent warp off...
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:04:00 - [1222] Originally by: William DeMeo Hey, dumbass. An inty pilot with an IQ of 2 will never allow themselves to get into web range since, YES, they do die to webs. But they also do 5km/s. So all you can do with damps is make inty's run away, not kill it. So I said, damps do not kill inty's, do they now? Also, neuts do exactly the same thing as nos but less well. So in this particular case, I will count them as nos's as they are indeed effective for inty killing (though they suck for everything else) Thanks for not thinking yourself and reading my post. bai. Exactly... so a damped interceptor pilot (or any way you can make it run away) can't scramble you and hold you down while his buddies arrive. You warp off to safety. That is a 'win' for you. You don't have to blow a ship up to win... just neutralize it and/or drive it off is plenty sufficient much of the time (when solo particularly).
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:10:00 - [1223] Originally by: William DeMeo Fact remains it's almost impossible to kill an inty without nos. Drones, jammers, small guns, missiles work too I¦ve heard. Ship lovers click here
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:15:00 - [1224] Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini This is the worst example ever... the game is rock paper siccors not rock rock rock.. how would your nos boat have handleld a sniper rokh at 200 km? He would have warped away...
Amaldor Themodius	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:31:00 - [1225] Would be nice if CCP developed a quarterly player census by evemail inviting players to vote on these core rules modifications.. The forum trolls have far too much sway in this game and exert heavy influence. A reasonably small number of players (by comparison to total player base) post similar / identical threads and spin there ideas from mole hills into mountains that dont appear to align with the broader player community.. The current forum system is so rotten it borders on corrupt and steps should be taken to prevent it from worsenin. Already the large mega allainces have developed strategies to encourage members to lobby the forums / ccp to undertake their interests as game development(Goons & BOB being the most obvious). What is needed imho is transparency and a quarterly census would achieve that by providing a snap shot of the quantitative values recieved once the voting player had cast their vote. Alliances would still group think and use collaboration but at least their influence would not extend beyond the single vote of each eve player. Light me up flamers / forum trolls im sure u have a comment or twenty to pass on why you disagree with introducing fairness and transparency to the game.. OH and in relation to what prompted this post -- THE NOS NERF IN THIS FORMAT IS THE SINGLE WORST GAME INNOVATION OF 2007 (TO DATE)---
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:37:00 - [1226] Originally by: Amaldor Themodius OH and in relation to what prompted this post -- THE NOS NERF IN THIS FORMAT IS THE SINGLE WORST GAME INNOVATION OF 2007 (TO DATE)--- Care to give any reason why this nos nerf is bad? Because I haven't seen a single reason written here on why this Nos change is such a bad thing. We have seen people post some very usefull thoughts on why certain ships who are supposed to use Nos are now nerfed, and CCP has replied that they will look into, but other than that, not a single coerent post about it...
Amaldor Themodius	Posted - 2007.08.03 14:59:00 - [1227] Originally by: PhantomVyper Care to give any reason why this nos nerf is bad? Because I haven't seen a single reason written here on why this Nos change is such a bad thing. We have seen people post some very usefull thoughts on why certain ships who are supposed to use Nos are now nerfed, and CCP has replied that they will look into, but other than that, not a single coerent post about it... there are 43 pages before this one with numerous criticisms im not going to reiterate that which has already been discussed, likewise there are some strong veiws in the ships and modules forum same topic.. or was it that u didnt consider them coherent?
Hammar Wolf	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:01:00 - [1228] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Amaldor Themodius OH and in relation to what prompted this post -- THE NOS NERF IN THIS FORMAT IS THE SINGLE WORST GAME INNOVATION OF 2007 (TO DATE)--- Care to give any reason why this nos nerf is bad? Because I haven't seen a single reason written here on why this Nos change is such a bad thing. We have seen people post some very usefull thoughts on why certain ships who are supposed to use Nos are now nerfed, and CCP has replied that they will look into, but other than that, not a single coerent post about it... Vyper come on man get over yourself. There are pages and pages of posts about why its bad, terrible, wont work out, etc. and many with good reasoning. Sorry that all the thousands of posts have not been sufficiently coherent for you. And please stop wearing kneepads for the devs.
Amaldor Themodius	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:03:00 - [1229] Originally by: torN Deception Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:22:40 Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:21:12 Edited by: torN Deception on 03/08/2007 11:20:39 A while back when CCP first mentioned it was thinking about nerfing NOS down the road(not so far down the road it turned out), you mentioned one possible nerf as making NOS sig radius penalized. This seems to me both a far fairer solution, but a more elegant one as well. I think it's fair to say that 90% of the whining about NOS is due to heavy NOS. That's because nosferatu are the only offensive highslot module that are completely unaffected by the target's qualities. Sig radius, velocity, tracking, none of it matters. Unlike missiles or turrets, it's just as effective against a tiny interceptor doing 5km/s in orbit, and a huge battleship doing 10m/s. That becomes the biggest problem when the disparity between the target's ship class and the module size of the NOS is largest, which means heavy NOS. That means that a heavy nosferatu is 100% effective against anything from a frigate up to a dreadnought. Since you're draining the same amount of cap per module activation in fact, that makes heavy nos far more effective against smaller ships than it is against larger ones, comparatively. You can blow away the cap of anything BC sized or smaller pretty quickly, and with it MWD and repping capability, if not weapon use as well. So instead of overreacting and turning one of the most prominent modules in EVE all but useless, why not take the obvious solution that has been raised again and again in the "nerf NOS" threads and simply make nosferatu dependent on sig radius? A heavy diminishing nos will drain the full amount from a target with a sig radius of 400 or larger, but against a target the size of a thorax, or even more so a crow, it will drain far less capacitor while its activation cost for the battleship remains the same regardless. The proposed solution changes none of this. Instead of fitting a large NOS on every battleship, players will stick on a heavy neut instead. It's still not sig penalized, which means it's still as effective as absolutely destroying the cap of any smaller ships that try to engage. Smart PvPers will still fit cap boosters because it'll let them field more durable tanks. The reason NOS are so ubiquitous in that last empty slot on pretty much all battleships is because they're effective against everything. It means that ratting ships can very effectively deal with things like interceptor tacklers, or even hostile HACs, because a battleship-sized NOS will nuke their cap. Make nos sig radius penalized and all of a sudden it is like other offensive modules only completely effective against ships the same class or larger. It no longer becomes the no-brainer choice to fill the final slot on a battleship but a module that has to be weighed against the other options. To quote the devblog, NOS are "too powerful since there is no compromise involved." IT goes on to bring up the example of a battleship using its NOS against a frigate. The sig radius solution solves that exact issue. Even if CCP doesn't think this is the right way to go, I'd at least like to know why. After all, they were considering as a solution a while back. Why did they think it was insufficient to fix NOS? Here is one fellow who makes some good points and valid criticisms of the NOS nerf in its current form.. i think his idea is much better than the CCP nerf..
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:05:00 - [1230] Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 15:12:48 Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 15:06:48 Originally by: Baynex WARNING LOGIC PRESENT BELOW THIS LINE! --------------------------------------------- Nos is a weapon, make it use a hardpoint! Make it a turret? Dominix still fits a rack of them. Make it a launcher? We get even more whining than this nerf. Make it a new type of weapon hardpoint? We have no idea how much of a code change and database change this will introduce and doesn't even address some of the core concerns (one of which is making interceptor pilots' life hard) because the NOS mechanism itself is unchanged.

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:13:00 - [1231] Originally by: Amaldor Themodius Originally by: torN Deception stuff Here is one fellow who makes some good points and valid criticisms of the NOS nerf in its current form.. i think his idea is much better than the CCP nerf.. No it is not. Like alot of people said, the sig radius proposal doesn't solve the problem that an entire class of ships is completelly rendered uselless (Interceptors), by a module that in todays environment is overused because it possesses much more advantages than drawbacks. As soon as the Interceptor (or any frigate for that matter), used its MWD it see itself completelly without cap. So that sugestion wouldn't solve what CCP perceives as one of the issues with the current Nos. The neut will not replace the nos in most setups, therefore interceptors (and assault frigates), will be allowed to perform their role. Not only this but active tanks / energy using weapons will become more powerfull because not only will the nos continue to work for them, they won't be affected by it. If there are so many posts on why this change is so bad, again without getting into the specific nos ships that CCP said they would be getting into, then it won't be so hard for you to find one.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:31:00 - [1232] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Amaldor Themodius OH and in relation to what prompted this post -- THE NOS NERF IN THIS FORMAT IS THE SINGLE WORST GAME INNOVATION OF 2007 (TO DATE)--- Care to give any reason why this nos nerf is bad? Because I haven't seen a single reason written here on why this Nos change is such a bad thing. We have seen people post some very usefull thoughts on why certain ships who are supposed to use Nos are now nerfed, and CCP has replied that they will look into, but other than that, not a single coerent post about it... Care to explain whats so good about the change? Ship lovers click here
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:58:00 - [1233] Edited by: Argen Tano on 03/08/2007 15:58:37 Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Amaldor Themodius Originally by: torN Deception stuff Here is one fellow who makes some good points and valid criticisms of the NOS nerf in its current form.. i think his idea is much better than the CCP nerf.. No it is not. Like alot of people said, the sig radius proposal doesn't solve the problem that an entire class of ships is completelly rendered uselless (Interceptors), by a module that in todays environment is overused because it possesses much more advantages than drawbacks. As soon as the Interceptor (or any frigate for that matter), used its MWD it see itself completelly without cap. So that sugestion wouldn't solve what CCP perceives as one of the issues with the current Nos. The neut will not replace the nos in most setups, therefore interceptors (and assault frigates), will be allowed to perform their role. Not only this but active tanks / energy using weapons will become more powerfull because not only will the nos continue to work for them, they won't be affected by it. If there are so many posts on why this change is so bad, again without getting into the specific nos ships that CCP said they would be getting into, then it won't be so hard for you to find one. Care to explain why you missed the part, where someone suggested it should be based on base sig, and not modified sig, such as when the MWD is active?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 15:58:00 - [1234] Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 16:00:26 Originally by: Hellspawn01 Care to explain whats so good about the change? a) Interceptor pilots could function against NOS. To kill an interceptor, you have to fit NEUT which you'll have to use at a cost (no longer free to be immune from intercteptors) b) Killing someone's cap completely would no longer be "free". You have to use your own cap to completely kill a target's cap. c) It nerfs the FOTM setups like DomiNOS. To achieve the same thing fit NEUTs but it will make the overall ship weaker (no longer able to fit super strong tank in addition to killing target's cap) d) FOTM Curse setups would not be as good. You actually have to think and work a little to remain strong with that ship. No more F1-F5, launch drones, /afk, sammich, return to loot wreck... if you see a Curse when you're in a BS, it may actually be either really dangerous because the pilot is good or piloted by a FOTM pilot and you can kill him. Even FOTM pilots will still be deadly to almost anything smaller than a BS. It also brings its soloability more in line with other recon ships. FOTM pilots will obviously be hit hardest by the NOS nerf (and will whine the loudest). e) Cap unstable setups (Megathrons use these a lot and almost all Amarr BS setups) would have some defense against NOS since their cap is always pretty low. Those setups will still benefit from fitting a NOS but if you want to kill the cap of someone in that setup, you have to fit a NEUT. f) "Cap warfare" actually has meaning... you have to fight it like a battle instead of F1-Fx, /afk g) NOS is still viable defensively (and for free other than fittings) to help maintain your cap but is no longer an offensive weapon. NEUT is the offensive weapon (as it always had been). How about those to start with?
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:01:00 - [1235] Originally by: speedcat Enuf is enuf :-) 1) The people who tells us that everything a curse or gallente pilot wants to, he can also after the new patch... >> then WHY, WHY you want to change it ??? huh? 2) The people who fears Large NOS on a battleship (I repeat: BATTLESHIP), that kind of ship in every movie destroys everything almost alone... it's not for fun called large NOS, and NO, a battleship pilot don't want to be scrambled through a single Rifter for the whole day... it's called BATTLEship for a reason !!! It's called LARGE NOS for a reason. And believe it or not, I hate those ships, I don't even fly a NOS-Domi... my Domi (rest in peace) was fitted with a tank and gang support instead of the dan NOS. 3) CCP... please, stop nerfing. Some people said it already in here. They learnt from others fittings, they learnt from getting NOSed because of getting to close to a Domi, this is a lesson which I learnt also by myself. But there are also possibilites to withstand a NOS-Domi. Not even the Passive-Shield-Tank-Nerf was that hard. This NOS Nerf changes a lot of fittings, funny fittings, excellent fittings for absolutely no reason. Only because some incompetent (not even Noobs) wanna be professionals whined the whole day instead of train themselfs. The Domi has already been nerfed in speed together with the Phoon. And this was great, it really gave no reason a Battleship was flying that fast. It was a joke and it's history. 4)To everyone thinking after this the NOS-Domis will vanish. You're wrong, as I said in another posting, a Domi has the Powergrid and the CAP to maintain the Neuts. But all the smaller ships with great fittings haven't. 5) JUST DON'T DO IT THIS WAY CCP... IT's WRONG AND YOU NOW IT ! 6) Others said it before. The people who can think out of the box can also think about a method to get a NOS-Domi down. It happens, every day, NOS-Domis exploding and people are happy with their idea to get them down. THIS IS EVE! Stop being happy with this patch as it is... think for everyone and not only for your ship you currently flying... or should we nerf that dmn speed of the Vagabond... Stabber? Other Minmatar-Ships... should this also been nerfed? Or is just "standard" for Minmatar-Pilots that they are 5 times faster than everyone else, can deal every damage and can take quite good? Is it? NO, okey then stop... and CCP... your fans inside this game gave you some very good ideas to implement good solutions which are not "nerfing", they are just great. br speed 1)Curse and pilgrims will have a harder time doing what they did if they even can do what they did. Most ppl point out that they are still effective and balanced not DEAD. 2)Battleships can still use neutralizers to fend of small ships. They cant use a universal NOS for it thou. 3) They are just taking away the ability of NOS performing its own and the neutralizers job, it truly was Universal in use and even easier to fit then the neutralizer. They are Balancing NOS to neutralizers and many other systems. When most of the suggestion said to ppl whining about NOS is train it yurself.. it shows how bad it really is. NOS is to good and have no other module in its category as good as itself. This isnt balanced. 4)If the new era will bring Neutralizer Domis then yeahaa good for them, the domis will still be good if it works. However a Neutdomi won kill its enemies CAP/Providing its Tank/Fending Of small and big ships alike with one module. NEUT domis can fend of small ships, kill Big ships CAP but at expense of its own Tank and Cap. 5)I trust CCP takes and valuates both the bad and good points with this change and make a decision if they can find and use a better change. 6)Please see out of your little domi box, there are more wrongs with NOS then just on domis Domis. I want to fit other stuff then it, but currently all other options are inferior in all ways. Thinking out of the NOS-Box is pointless. Im flying caldari for the record. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:02:00 - [1236] Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 16:00:26 Originally by: Hellspawn01 Care to explain whats so good about the change? a) Interceptor pilots could function against NOS. To kill an interceptor, you have to fit NEUT which you'll have to use at a cost (no longer free to be immune from intercteptors) b) Killing someone's cap completely would no longer be "free". You have to use your own cap to completely kill a target's cap. c) It nerfs the FOTM setups like DomiNOS. To achieve the same thing fit NEUTs but it will make the overall ship weaker (no longer able to fit super strong tank in addition to killing target's cap) d) FOTM Curse setups would not be as good. You actually have to think and work a little to remain strong with that ship. No more F1-F5, launch drones, /afk, sammich, return to loot wreck... if you see a Curse when you're in a BS, it may actually be either really dangerous because the pilot is good or piloted by a FOTM pilot and you can kill him. Even FOTM pilots will still be deadly to almost anything smaller than a BS. It also brings its soloability more in line with other recon ships. FOTM pilots will obviously be hit hardest by the NOS nerf (and will whine the loudest). e) Cap unstable setups (Megathrons use these a lot and almost all Amarr BS setups) would have some defense against NOS since their cap is always pretty low. Those setups will still benefit from fitting a NOS but if you want to kill the cap of someone in that setup, you have to fit a NEUT. f) "Cap warfare" actually has meaning... you have to fight it like a battle instead of F1-Fx, /afk g) NOS is still viable defensively (and for free other than fittings) to help maintain your cap but is no longer an offensive weapon. NEUT is the offensive weapon (as it always had been). How about those to start with? /win!
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:08:00 - [1237] Originally by: Argen Tano Care to explain why you missed the part, where someone suggested it should be based on base sig, and not modified sig, such as when the MWD is active? Ok, how about that change wouldn't make anything for the fact that even against ships its own size its incredibly overpowered when compared to other modules of its category (neuts are considerably harder to fit and kill your own cap whille nos helps it), and completelly ruins setups that are perfectly viable without the after-patch nos (Amarr pulse ships mostly)? Good enough?
me bored	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:11:00 - [1238] The curse is the single most brokenly imbalanced ship in the game and it needed to be nerfed. It's no good crying because your pwnmobile is getting put in line with other ships. So you can't kill every ship in the game 1v2 anymore boohoo.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:13:00 - [1239] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Just strange that a nos takes mostly more than 1 cycle to kill an inty¦s cap while a neut kills it instantly and then call nos overpowered. Large named nos eats 120cap/12s at 25km range Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) So a L named neut kills 5x (!) times more cap than a nos and it isnt overpowered??? 3 of those damage active tanked ships in 2-3 cycles very hard so you need 5 L named nos to counter 1 L named neut and on top of that at 30% cap of your target, he can neut you but you cant nos him. Where is the logic behind this crap? Your logic is flawed mate. Nos drain 5x faster then Nos. Nos Drains and gives wich makes it 2x effective. Now Neut is only on paper 2.5x effective. Then account that Neut also kills your cap 60% as good approx according to your stats. This Halves it yet again on paper in usefulness to 1.25x NOS. Then you have another drawback of harder to fit and the fact is has twice the activation time and such... NOS is to good couse it was so universal, easy to fit and only had fitting as a drawback. NOS can today be used on anything from a BS to a Frig just as effective doing the job of neutralizer and NOS at the same time. With this change the Neutralizers uses and NOS uses will be VERY different. Making both valid options to different setups. Hope you can see some of the logic behind the neutralizer. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Ashhtar	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:13:00 - [1240] stoOop that change !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm an amarrian, and i never chose my 'race' for having all this launcher on my ships !!! don't change anything on our ships !!! AMARR like and skill energy turret, and if i would like have missile i choose caldari and skill missile !!!!!!!!!! who is the stupid guy have say all that change ??? if you change that what i do ?? i skill and wait 5 month for using it ??

Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:16:00 - [1241] Originally by: Ashhtar if you change that what i do ?? Continue flying the turret ships just as good as you ever did? (Crusader, Retribution, Zealot, Absolution)
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:18:00 - [1242] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 16:00:26 Originally by: Hellspawn01 Care to explain whats so good about the change? a) Interceptor pilots could function against NOS. To kill an interceptor, you have to fit NEUT which you'll have to use at a cost (no longer free to be immune from intercteptors) b) Killing someone's cap completely would no longer be "free". You have to use your own cap to completely kill a target's cap. c) It nerfs the FOTM setups like DomiNOS. To achieve the same thing fit NEUTs but it will make the overall ship weaker (no longer able to fit super strong tank in addition to killing target's cap) d) FOTM Curse setups would not be as good. You actually have to think and work a little to remain strong with that ship. No more F1-F5, launch drones, /afk, sammich, return to loot wreck... if you see a Curse when you're in a BS, it may actually be either really dangerous because the pilot is good or piloted by a FOTM pilot and you can kill him. Even FOTM pilots will still be deadly to almost anything smaller than a BS. It also brings its soloability more in line with other recon ships. FOTM pilots will obviously be hit hardest by the NOS nerf (and will whine the loudest). e) Cap unstable setups (Megathrons use these a lot and almost all Amarr BS setups) would have some defense against NOS since their cap is always pretty low. Those setups will still benefit from fitting a NOS but if you want to kill the cap of someone in that setup, you have to fit a NEUT. f) "Cap warfare" actually has meaning... you have to fight it like a battle instead of F1-Fx, /afk g) NOS is still viable defensively (and for free other than fittings) to help maintain your cap but is no longer an offensive weapon. NEUT is the offensive weapon (as it always had been). How about those to start with? /win! Nice compressed list of many pros there mate (hellspawn01) /signed c) i think its more of a FOTYear in the case of NOSdomi heh. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:19:00 - [1243] every day i'm going to post the same thing. the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful. there is a difference in this thread b/n amarr need for nos and the overpowered gallente argument. i am sick an tired of pilots stating how useful this will be for amarr....how does it benefit our laser and repping requirements to fit a neut and bring the targets cap down AFTER ours. again..having 5 ships NOS another and have NONE OF THEM leach any cap out of the target is plain stupid. end. //sometimes less is more...zero
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:21:00 - [1244] Edited by: Vampire Lord on 03/08/2007 16:24:45 Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Amaldor Themodius Originally by: torN Deception stuff Here is one fellow who makes some good points and valid criticisms of the NOS nerf in its current form.. i think his idea is much better than the CCP nerf.. No it is not. Like alot of people said, the sig radius proposal doesn't solve the problem that an entire class of ships is completelly rendered uselless (Interceptors), by a module that in todays environment is overused because it possesses much more advantages than drawbacks. As soon as the Interceptor (or any frigate for that matter), used its MWD it see itself completelly without cap. So that sugestion wouldn't solve what CCP perceives as one of the issues with the current Nos. The neut will not replace the nos in most setups, therefore interceptors (and assault frigates), will be allowed to perform their role. Not only this but active tanks / energy using weapons will become more powerfull because not only will the nos continue to work for them, they won't be affected by it. If there are so many posts on why this change is so bad, again without getting into the specific nos ships that CCP said they would be getting into, then it won't be so hard for you to find one. NOS/Webbers are anti inty mods. NOS forces them to keep distance and Webbers if they inty pilot is smart enough to get into range will get them killed. STFU plz. Inty's used properly are one of the hardest ships to kill. They fly 5-12km/s. That is there role dumbass. Fast moving hit and run ships. They only have to worry about Large NOS as they can fly out of any other NOS's range an tackle. There only fear is Large NOS. If people stopped crying an start thinking Eve would be a better place. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
me bored	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:24:00 - [1245] Originally by: Ashhtar stoOop that change !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm an amarrian, and i never chose my 'race' for having all this launcher on my ships !!! don't change anything on our ships !!! AMARR like and skill energy turret, and if i would like have missile i choose caldari and skill missile !!!!!!!!!! who is the stupid guy have say all that change ??? if you change that what i do ?? i skill and wait 5 month for using it ?? It's not like anyone used khanid ships before this change and you're perfectly free to continue not to. I don't think I've seen a sac in pvp since pre missile nerf.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:24:00 - [1246] Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa Originally by: RossP Zoyka Originally by: Falun Assad Edited by: Falun Assad on 02/08/2007 15:03:40 Originally by: CCP Fendahl This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Please reread one of the made proposals: Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s With this mechanic Neuts are clearly seperated from Noses. Ships wont get zapped aka insta drained. Having a big capacitor gives you more time before suffering from the Noses effects. The Nos is still effective for leeching, although it can be debated if there should be a stacking penalty. Additionally this change allows you to stay alive for a very long time although being nossed by using a cap booster. So, why dont you try this one? Probably the only valid argument against the NOS nerf I've read so far on this entire damn thread. That being said, I still like the Dev's idea better because if someone Neuts you to hell you can make a comeback by using bunches of NOS. Your idea will gimp it 2much I dont see your point, because if he Neuts you at 20.83 while using 15,625 (at best skill with Heavy Neut I), you will still regen at 7,17 (Heavy Nos I) while reducing his regen down to 12 Cap/s. Bottom line, he neuts, you nos, you win. so Neuts only make sense in combo with Noses, and vice versa if you want to kill his cap, but nos will work fine alone to sustain your own tank with out being overpowered.. Misread your post, my bad. But now this just turns things back around against the neuts. Guy neuts you, so you nos him back, his cap is gone quick and yours is regained completely. NOS outperforms neuts in every way. Sure the NOS loses effectiveness as he gets lower, but his NEUTS are not only pointless to use vs. NOS but utterly detrimental vs. NOS. At least with Dev suggestion guy neuts you, you NOS him back up till the point your capacitor match up in recharge % and the NOS stops. NOS would be the clear counter to neuts but not going to drain him to zip forever and ever after you turn it on to do this counter. So NEUTS are pointless to use vs. NOS, however you aren't sure to lose if you do get NOS'd while NEUTing.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:27:00 - [1247] Ok, we have mixed thoughts about the pvp use of those changes. I¦m not that of a pvp expert like some of those long-post-writers above. But what about the pve part? Ship lovers click here
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:39:00 - [1248] Originally by: Hellspawn01 But what about the pve part? Yeah... that's a big question that wasn't even touched in the Dev response. I know at one time I used NOS in PvE a bit (but don't anymore) and it definitely made a difference. If I were to guess, I think they'll say that it won't change for NOS on NPC ships but who knows.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:44:00 - [1249] Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing. the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful. And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are still immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT at all.
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:44:00 - [1250] Originally by: Aramendel With max skills, no rigs, implants or damagemods and t1 ammo you get mostly EM 94.5 dps for the new version with 3 rocket launchers and a dual light pulse. With 3 dual light pulse and 1 rocket launcher you deal 105 dps currently. So you will deal less dps, not much though. If you shoot sansha/bloods you should do about the same dps as now due to hitting the weakest resistance more often. Vs other targets it will deal a good deal less effective dps, though. So basically, if I'm not firing EM rockets, I loose 25% of my damage potental. If feels to me there should be a 5% bonus to therm missiles as well. ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth

PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 16:52:00 - [1251] Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing. the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful. there is a difference in this thread b/n amarr need for nos and the overpowered gallente argument. i am sick an tired of pilots stating how useful this will be for amarr....how does it benefit our laser and repping requirements to fit a neut and bring the targets cap down AFTER ours. again..having 5 ships NOS another and have NONE OF THEM leach any cap out of the target is plain stupid. end. I don't care how many times you'll post it it doesn't make it true. Why would you wan't to put a neut in an Amarr laser ship?! That doesn't make any sense... Yes Amarr is the race that is boosted the most from this change. Why? Because thanks to our heavy energy requirements to keep our guns and tanks running the Nos will continue to be just as effective in helping us with our cap problems, whille we will be safe from the overabundance of Nos that are in the game currently! How is this so dificult to understand? And the nos slots proposal doesn't solve the problem that a single nos ruins an Interceptor pilot's day without having any real drawback to its user. Finnally fit neuts to those 5 ships and the target will be out of energy in no time, or better yet, fit some guns in them and watch that target ship die...
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:11:00 - [1252] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa Originally by: RossP Zoyka Originally by: Falun Assad Edited by: Falun Assad on 02/08/2007 15:03:40 Originally by: CCP Fendahl This specific mechanics was chosen for Nosferatus since it has the following desirable properties: Separates Nosferatus from Energy Neutralizers: Nosferatus for leeching cap, neuts for draining Protects ships from being insta-drained by Nosferatus Having a large capacitor capacity should be an advantage, not a drawback Keeps nos effective for leeching cap While many of the alternative solutions address one or more of these points, the mechanics we are now testing is the only one that satisfies all of the above. Please reread one of the made proposals: Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23 Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates. Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems: OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen. Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs. NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.420 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.412 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s With this mechanic Neuts are clearly seperated from Noses. Ships wont get zapped aka insta drained. Having a big capacitor gives you more time before suffering from the Noses effects. The Nos is still effective for leeching, although it can be debated if there should be a stacking penalty. Additionally this change allows you to stay alive for a very long time although being nossed by using a cap booster. So, why dont you try this one? Probably the only valid argument against the NOS nerf I've read so far on this entire damn thread. That being said, I still like the Dev's idea better because if someone Neuts you to hell you can make a comeback by using bunches of NOS. Your idea will gimp it 2much I dont see your point, because if he Neuts you at 20.83 while using 15,625 (at best skill with Heavy Neut I), you will still regen at 7,17 (Heavy Nos I) while reducing his regen down to 12 Cap/s. Bottom line, he neuts, you nos, you win. so Neuts only make sense in combo with Noses, and vice versa if you want to kill his cap, but nos will work fine alone to sustain your own tank with out being overpowered.. Misread your post, my bad. But now this just turns things back around against the neuts. Guy neuts you, so you nos him back, his cap is gone quick and yours is regained completely. NOS outperforms neuts in every way. Sure the NOS loses effectiveness as he gets lower, but his NEUTS are not only pointless to use vs. NOS but utterly detrimental vs. NOS. But that is the good thing, if you really wanna do cap warfare you have to use Noses and Neuts, just one of them wont work. If u just want to boost your cap, you can either use a booster(saves u from noses as well) or trade a weapon for a nos. So mounting a nos means protection from nos or neuts but not dedicated cap killers, while neuts only make sense against ships without noses or in combo with a nos. Thats a huge variety, which is imho desirable _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:13:00 - [1253] Quote: And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless incorrect. when i fly ceptors. and when i warp onto solo battleships as a scout for a gang. i have faction gear fitted to stay beyond nos range. i don't know how you people play the game, but for the last 3 months, every battleship my ceptor, or the ceptor in my gang, warps in on, cloaks! that or it warps before the ceptor gets there. SOLO ratting battleships DON'T FIT NOS ANYMORE, THEY FIT CLOAKS. and solo BS that are not ratting but are looking for trouble, have more to worry about than a single ceptor. the quote above is like 99% of the posts in this forum, it represents the gallente perspective of an amarr problem. YOU FIT NOS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. we have to fit nos because WE HAVE TO AND CAN'T FIT ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT SLOT. example. zealot. 5 highs. 4 turrets. 1 "utility slot". 3 med slots. so we try to fit. 4 medium lasers. HIGH CAP USAGE. armour repper or 2. HIGH CAP USAGE. under these new changes. we have to run our cap LOWER than a caldari or minmatar ship that we are engageing to utilise a "UTILITY SLOT" that has a nos fitted - meaning we cant fire the lasers or rep. that doesn't make sense. OK, let me fit a neut then in my "utility slot". so how does leaching zeroing the cap on a caldari ship or minmatar ship help me shoot them or armour repair? answer it doesn't unless i UNFIT A GUN AND FIT A NOS AS WELL - oh, but hang on, if i neut the target down, there's NO CAP FOR ME TO LEACH ANYWAY. oh, but you say, just fit a cap booster (well i do on my zealot, but guess what, that means i have to choose between a webber or an AB or MWD, meaning wither way, I can't catch a minmatar, gallenta or caldari ship anyway..... guess what...the prophecy, the absolution, the gheddon, the prophecy, the maller are all the same. and lets not mention the impact to the pilgrim or the curse. bugger me. the curse. my standard fit atm is dual heavy launchers, 2x nos, 1x neut, ewar mids, armour repping (old skool fitting). if you want every single curse engagement to be "wait until gang engages, warp in at 30km, damp and neut" this change will only accellerate this behaviour. it also takes away any ability the curse has to solo pvp (the ONLY AMARR SHIP THAT CAN - unless you're hunting people who in these days of PC are called "special" and can't warp away from a harby or absolution). Every race has a solo ship or ships apart from amarr if the curse is taken away. Note that the pilgrim has been broken for quite some time - too slow, too weak and no range bonus to really make it useful, or even expendable with it's cost when u factor in the mods required to make it work. it's quite simple. the suggestion for the NOS fix is a knee jerk reaction to nos-myrmi and nos-domi "over balancing". either move to nos-slots, sheesh, even make NOS classified as a missle launcher and only enable it to fit to launcher hardpoints. then u can rebalance amarr utility slots to launcher slots and hence make missile skills "usable" across the board. <- in fact thinking about it, this solves almost every "issue" raised in this 40+ page thread atm. GIVE US THE CHOICE TO CHOOSE DPS or NOS and if we choose DPS, make us work for it with launcher skills that also fit into the khanid changes. otherwise, convert out utility slot to a turret or a mid depending on the ship and give us a crystal with an alternate damage type (breaking the curse but making the zealot and battlecruisers useful). end x2. //sometimes less is more...zero
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:20:00 - [1254] Originally by: zero2espect the quote above is like 99% of the posts in this forum, it represents the gallente perspective of an amarr problem. YOU FIT NOS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. we have to fit nos because WE HAVE TO AND CAN'T FIT ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT SLOT. example. zealot. 5 highs. 4 turrets. 1 "utility slot". 3 med slots. so we try to fit. 4 medium lasers. HIGH CAP USAGE. armour repper or 2. HIGH CAP USAGE. under these new changes. we have to run our cap LOWER than a caldari or minmatar ship that we are engageing to utilise a "UTILITY SLOT" that has a nos fitted - meaning we cant fire the lasers or rep. that doesn't make sense. Ok, just focusing on this part of your post here. You must have really misunderstood the nos changes. If you fire your lasers and run your reps your cap will go down, it will go down faster than a gallente or caldari or minmatar because their weapons use less cap than ours. So if your cap is lower that theirs, you can use the nos, just like you have been using it so far to steal their energy.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:21:00 - [1255] Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing. the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful. there is a difference in this thread b/n amarr need for nos and the overpowered gallente argument. i am sick an tired of pilots stating how useful this will be for amarr....how does it benefit our laser and repping requirements to fit a neut and bring the targets cap down AFTER ours. It doesnt.. Fitting a NOS will help your Lasers and Rep since youll be lower in Cap then your enemie, and NOS gives you defence against NEUT ships. Imagine a Amarr NEUT boat with perhaps say some proj/miss or all neut and drones, think out of the bos or whatevah here. Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really... Atleast other races will have more trouble killing YOUR cap and YOU can use NOS very good still to geep you going. How is this NOT more useful for amarr then others? Having 5 ships with a neut each will DECIMATE 1 ships cap also, CAPwarfare is still very valid tactic in gang.... NOS wont do the neutralizer job anymore, this is balanced. NOS slots wont even the balance between NOS and NEUTs only nerf ships like NOSdomi. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:21:00 - [1256] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing. the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful. And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are still immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT at all. If most people had a brain cell they would figure a way around it. That's the problem with eve now. People like you cry because your ship can't deal with one aspect yet it's nearly impossible for other class ships to catch an kill you. I vote for STFU an stop crying. How about you cry about something that really matters like lag??? PS: I used to enjoy telling people adapt or die. Now I'll have to tell them go to the forums an cry an the DEV's will change it. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:37:00 - [1257] Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:41:06 Quote: If you fire your lasers and run your reps your cap will go down, it will go down faster than a gallente or caldari or minmatar because their weapons use less cap than ours. i under stand the mechanics just fine. with the way the responses are flowing in this thread i think it may be you that is confused. today, the easiset and most used tactic for caldari or minmatar is to zero their cap and watch the amar ship starve. but denying me the ability to tip them over the edge and bottom out the cap to break a scram is madness. every time i fire or rep, a nos attack from my opponent to me will do nothing that's ok. unless of course he/she is prepared to zero their cap...which minatar or caldari are quite capable of doing. this has the added bonus of meaning that i cannot consume any cap from them because their cap is below mine - i can't even suck out the cap that is funding their scrammer which is the only power draw they may have. this is MADNESS. if i'm in a zealot, prophecy, absolution it's even worse because the only answer is a neut that i can't fire for the risk of compromising my damage and tank. under these rules, any minmatar or caldari pilot only needs to hold onto enough cap to keep me scrammed and they win. i cannot nos them for cap and i must choose between 2 of the following 3 modules -> web, scram or speed (AB/MWD). because i will need a cap booster to supply me my cap requirements <- just fitting a cap booster effectively makes nos a non-usable module because my cap will ALWAYS be higher because i'm boosting cap. add to the fact that if it's a khanid ship, half my cargo is now consumed with ammo and now cap boosters as well. //sometimes less is more...zero
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.03 17:49:00 - [1258] Quote: Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really... and incorrect again. the amarr trademark is lasers and armour. the power requirements are a requirement to fund this, not the reason for it. if you look closely, our power grid and cap charge isn't much better than any other race - especially when u factor in how power hungry lasers and reppers are. again i come back to the point that NEUTS DON'T HELP US SHOOT OR REP and in fact COMPROMISE OUR ABILITY TO SHOOT OR REP because we loos the same amount of cap as our opponents - but guess waht, if they're caldari or minmatar thay can still shoot us and thier shilds repair themselves without energy assistance. //sometimes less is more...zero
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.03 18:00:00 - [1259] On a second note, Neuts alone make sense if combined with a cap booster, you could basically keep the enemies cap dry. Naturally passive tanks are immune, and ships with weapons that dont require cap have the advantage, but thats nothing new. _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.03 18:15:00 - [1260] Originally by: Vampire Lord Originally by: Borasao Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing. the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful. And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are still immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT at all. If most people had a brain cell they would figure a way around it. That's the problem with eve now. People like you cry because your ship can't deal with one aspect yet it's nearly impossible for other class ships to catch an kill you. I vote for STFU an stop crying. How about you cry about something that really matters like lag??? PS: I used to enjoy telling people adapt or die. Now I'll have to tell them go to the forums an cry an the DEV's will change it. This is funny, because it's what I've been saying all along... the people who can figure stuff out have already worked with the proposed changes and figured out how to deal with it. There are a few suggestions (faction ships need the NEUT bonus as well) and one notable breakage (Pilgrim). I already work around it. I don't have a problem with the NOS now or with the proposed changes. I can work with it either way. Who exactly needs to figure stuff out?

Il Reverendo Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.03 18:25:00 - [1261] Damnation, Command Ships, Weapon Systems and Balance
Vampire Lord World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.03 18:34:00 - [1262] Originally by: zero2espect Quote: Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really... and incorrect again. the amarr trademark is lasers and armour. the power requirements are a requirement to fund this, not the reason for it. if you look closely, our power grid and cap charge isn't much better than any other race - especially when u factor in how power hungry lasers and reppers are. again i come back to the point that NEUTS DON'T HELP US SHOOT OR REP and in fact COMPROMISE OUR ABILITY TO SHOOT OR REP because we loos the same amount of cap as our opponents - but guess waht, if they're caldari or minmatar thay can still shoot us and thier shilds repair themselves without energy assistance. Yes I've already figured out a way to adjust to the changes but it still doesn't put any logic behind the changes. I should adapt to players tactics not the Dev's changing code & mods. It's about logic and the reason there changing it. How they are changing and so on. The DEV's need to learn how to adapt as well. Instead of hey letÆs just change this an see what happens. In reality the people with great logic can see this a Amarr buff in every way. It's just the Curse/Pilgrim get hurt in it. Every other Amarr ship is boosted. Crappy ships are now usable. In the same aspect it's buffing all small ships increasing their life expectancy. All in All this a drastic change that will affect all of eve. As I said before this NOS idea needs to get nurfed :). Even cutting the NOS amount by half would be better than this idea. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Countess Narcissa	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:01:00 - [1263] I liked my Damnation as it was, would expand on that, but I¦m on holiday
Tsunamisan	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:14:00 - [1264] Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:16:32 Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:15:12 Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis CCP have made a great game... and most of them play so let's all cut them some slack. I'm sure they will make the right choices for their game. Bring back duel MWD Hah! you're vagabond isn't fast enough is it? This is also part of the problem. They care more about nurfing and filling there needs rather than satisfying the broad player base
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:23:00 - [1265] Originally by: Tsunamisan Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:16:32 Edited by: Tsunamisan on 03/08/2007 19:15:12 Originally by: Agmamenon Exinferis CCP have made a great game... and most of them play so let's all cut them some slack. I'm sure they will make the right choices for their game. Bring back duel MWD Hah! you're vagabond isn't fast enough is it? This is also part of the problem. They care more about nurfing and filling there needs rather than satisfying the broad player base Because CCP care nothing about having a prosperous business? How does nerfing fulfill CCP's needs other than satisfying the broad player base? Actually, I bet they did it to personally **** you off Tsunamisan I think you are having paranoid delusions.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:30:00 - [1266] Originally by: PhantomVyper Originally by: Hellspawn01 Just strange that a nos takes mostly more than 1 cycle to kill an inty¦s cap while a neut kills it instantly and then call nos overpowered. Large named nos eats 120cap/12s at 25km range Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) So a L named neut kills 5x (!) times more cap than a nos and it isnt overpowered??? 3 of those damage active tanked ships in 2-3 cycles very hard so you need 5 L named nos to counter 1 L named neut and on top of that at 30% cap of your target, he can neut you but you cant nos him. Where is the logic behind this crap? - Neuts are harder to fit than Nos. - Neuts don't nearly has many advantages as a Nos. For starters they drain your own cap at the same time instead of helping it. So from those two facts: Neuts will not be used as comonly as Nos currently is effectivelly boosting a wholle lot of ship fittings that where perfectly viable if it wheren't for the overabundance of Nos. Dedicated Neut ships should still be a viable option and CCP has said that they are looking into it to make it so. Damn haven't you realised neuts DO NOT work? It is just not possible, why do you think they are not used? Because they're not any good! 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. The target will still easily be able to keep their guns going, especially caldari or minmatar ships since they don't even use cap. On top of that your damage output would suck. Maybe 5 T2 heavy drones (can be tanked by a battlecruiser) and a few med/small guns. And while you're hitting your enemy for nothing at all (if you find it hard to tank 5 drones in a battleship you fail and should stop posting) you also got to run a dual rep tank (don't fool yourself people, a 1 rep tank can't tank a decent gunship, hell, it's tough enough with dual reps and nice resists). So, let's break it down to a megathron 1 vs. 1. mega: 600-1000 dps depending on skills and setup, let's say 800. Domi: Don't top 500 in a nos setup. Let's say 400. Note, I can't be arsed to count on this or try it in quickfit so dps counts may be a little bit of but whatever. Megathron capdrain: roughly 2000 cap every 24 seconds. Domi capdrain: roughly 2800 cap every 24 seconds. (note: roughly) Domi dps is half of the mega dps. It's quite easy to see who would win this fight. Not only would the Domi (and the mega) run themselves straight out of cap the domi would also be breaking or barely breaking during the entire attack while the mega would be able to quite nicely tank the damage even with only 1 rep running. So my question to you is, is this balance? Is this what people will use instead of nos? Are neuts "good"? If neuts are gonna work they're gonna need to get insanely buffed or nosboats are over. CCP are forcing everyone to fly gunboats, they've nerfed the living ** out of ecm so it's hardly viable anymore. Nos as we know it are going to disappear and dampeners will be next. After that they'll probably go back to passive tanks and nano's to finally finish them off so that everyone can have a fair little fight without having to think at all. It's probably about this time you can buy ships with CCP approved setups so you can get the most out of the closerange gun battleship of CCP's choice. Shortly after this EVE will die. That **es me off. The game balance is fine go fix the lag and desynchs, that's the REAL issue with EVE. Yarr
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:40:00 - [1267] Originally by: William DeMeo 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted: Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest. If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:43:00 - [1268] Originally by: MEEATYOU I am in total agreement. I invested lots into the game, devoted hours training and working to get the perfect ship with NOS. Now, with 2 characters (On 2 Accounts) I want to petition to get compensation for me (And the rest of the professional, Non Whiners of EVE Association) so that maybe, just maybe, we might think about continuing to play. I wish that I had never heard of the game. When I started, it was fun, then the nerf happened to the shield tank, so I switched to Gallente. Now, it's their turn and personally, the game has become dull. Thank you CCP for wrecking your greatest creation. And if I hear a reply from a DEV, god help him for I will go up one side and down the other. Why am I replying to this again? Wow you spent hours training to perfect a Nos-boat, congrats, I've spent well over 2 years solely perfecting the skills for the Blasterthron, easily de-fanged by excessive Nosferatu (never been killed by a solo nos-domi before anyone pipes up) Gallente doctrine does not, and never has revolved around the nos-domi, good riddance to it. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:48:00 - [1269] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: William DeMeo 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted: Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest. If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%. Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps. Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:51:00 - [1270] Originally by: zero2espect Quote: Few other ships will match the amarr ships power in neut with its good pwoergrid and good cap. You can effectively build a CAPwarfare boat wich kinda is a trademark of amarr really... and incorrect again. the amarr trademark is lasers and armour. the power requirements are a requirement to fund this, not the reason for it. if you look closely, our power grid and cap charge isn't much better than any other race - especially when u factor in how power hungry lasers and reppers are. again i come back to the point that NEUTS DON'T HELP US SHOOT OR REP and in fact COMPROMISE OUR ABILITY TO SHOOT OR REP because we loos the same amount of cap as our opponents - but guess waht, if they're caldari or minmatar thay can still shoot us and thier shilds repair themselves without energy assistance. NOS HELP YOU SHOOT OR REP - way more then other races ships since you so point out amarr are most CAP hungry. - please NOTE im not saying NEUTs will help your LASERS. LASERS + NEUTs seems like you say a BAD IDEAD. AMARR will have the best oportunities to fit NEUTRALIZER RACKS couse AMARR ships are made for powergrid hungry WPNS such as NEUTRALIZERS or LASERS. Also MAX CAP and BEST regen will WIN or CREATE a better NEUTRALIZER warboat. Also AMARR recons use NEUTRALIZERS and NOS - this fact points that CAPwarfare is more of a AMARR treat. Maybe more caps can help you understand im just repeating myself here. Nautralizers: - Powergrid hungry like LASERS, amarr are best equip to fit both these wpns systems. - NEUTRALIZERS Kill your enemies cap faster then yours. Also this makes the cap regen and MAX cap very important. If you got 30%+ cap when you have depleeted your enemies cap you have a GREAT ADVANTAGE in the CAPWAR. NOS: - Ina fight the ship with lesses % based CAP can use this WPN. In most cases this is AMARR ships. - NOS helps CAP HUNGRY ships to sustain their TANK/WPNS against Less CAP hungry ships. - NOS is a great countermeasure against NEUTRALIZER boats. But the more neutralizers the more NOS is needed. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 19:58:00 - [1271] Originally by: zero2espect Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:57:30 Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:50:21 Edited by: zero2espect on 03/08/2007 17:41:06 Quote: If you fire your lasers and run your reps your cap will go down, it will go down faster than a gallente or caldari or minmatar because their weapons use less cap than ours. i under stand the mechanics just fine. with the way the responses are flowing in this thread i think it may be you that is confused. today, the easiset and most used tactic for caldari or minmatar is to zero their cap and watch the amar ship starve. but denying me the ability to tip them over the edge and bottom out the cap to break a scram is madness. every time i fire or rep, a nos attack from my opponent to me will do nothing that's ok. in fact, i doubt whether a caldari or minmatar ship would sacrifice a slot to fit a nos with these changes, they'll just fit a salvager to eat up all the amarr wrecks. a minmatar or caldari pilot is prepared to zero their cap...which they are quite capable of doing. this has the added bonus of meaning that i cannot consume any cap from them because their cap is below mine - i can't even suck out the cap that is funding their scrammer which is the only power draw they may have. this is MADNESS. if i'm in a zealot, prophecy, absolution it's even worse because the only answer is a neut that i can't fire for the risk of compromising my damage and tank AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL TURRET SLOT JUST TO MAKE THIS A POSSIBILITY. under these rules, any minmatar or caldari pilot only needs to hold onto enough cap to keep me scrammed and they win. i cannot nos them for cap and i must choose between 2 of the following 3 modules -> web, scram or speed (AB/MWD). because i will need a cap booster to supply me my cap requirements <- just fitting a cap booster effectively makes nos a non-usable module because my cap will ALWAYS be higher because i'm boosting cap. add to the fact that if it's a khanid ship, half my cargo is now consumed with ammo and now cap boosters as well. If a Pilot kills it cap to use nos to drain a amarr ship, and the amarr ship is GANK fitted like many of them are. How do you suppose that no cap ship is gonna kill you. I mean even today a NOS domi has trouble against extreem Ganking ships and that is WITH a HEAVY tank. DMG will force any opponent to Tank (exceptions are speed tanks and passive tanks) or die. While any enemie you fight kills it cap so you cant NOS well.. guess what they just help you kill them faster. Some fights you might lose and some win. I mean a ship who killed its cap to NOS will not be able to tank. And with 0 cap no MWD works. Ships that will be out there after this patch with the goal to 100% kill your preacious amarr cap wil be NEUTRALIZER boats. Wich GASP Amarr ships on paper have serious advantages of creating. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Callthetruth Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:02:00 - [1272] moving along
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:16:00 - [1273] Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: William DeMeo 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted: Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest. If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%. Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps. Now say your enemy has 4x of these fitted, and is a amarr say Apoc. Now your enemy has ****load of more cap then you and BAM just took of 2400cap from you at the cost of arouundsay 1800cap im to lasy to count. Now this pilot has 4 slots over for DPS (or lets say more neuts killing over 50% of your cap in one go) and drones to force you to tank also. To Boost he got plenty of cap himself to tank with and since hes going for CAPwarfare he might even have a capbooster. If he manages to kill your cap to 0 while hes at 30%+ hell have a recharge that wtf pwns your and can keep you down in cap while tanking. If your unlucky your ship uses cap to fire its guns also... to bad. _Ok this is all wishful thory_ But anyone with more then 2 braincells has to admit Neutralizers are a valid and usable wpn. So why dont we see them used... NOS its to powerful and on top of helping yourself althou it does it slower then its cousin it will kill its targets cap to 0%. NOS is to universal - and this is the only change to NOS that will put Neutralizers back in its full role while also balancing it and keeping it useful for its own purpose. Unless the Hardpoints for NOS wouldnt count for neutralizers or something... (witch would mean ppl would fil the NOS hardslots and the rest with Neuts heh) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Ashhtar	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:30:00 - [1274] about Kanid mk 2 : is too bigger that change, and why only on amarr ships ??? i see here maybe only 40 people,i think 40 people is not all the 30000 connection and in this 40 there is a lot of non-amarrian talking a lot, but why (by the way) not have this sort of change on all race and class ships ?? mmmm ?? egoist !! that a ridiculus nerf for amarrian people, be fair and doing that nerf on all ships on all race if nerf is an obligation !! i repete; i use and i had skilled for turret ... actual fitt is good don't touch it by the way i hope CCP dev's heard me, and a lot of ammarian who play at eve with me think like me, but they didn't speak well in english ... end of transmission and maybe subscription for a lot of amarrian .. crr . ctrr...
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:41:00 - [1275] Originally by: Ashhtar about Kanid mk 2 : is too bigger that change, and why only on amarr ships ??? i see here maybe only 40 people,i think 40 people is not all the 30000 connection and in this 40 there is a lot of non-amarrian talking a lot, but why (by the way) not have this sort of change on all race and class ships ?? mmmm ?? egoist !! that a ridiculus nerf for amarrian people, be fair and doing that nerf on all ships on all race if nerf is an obligation !! i repete; i use and i had skilled for turret ... actual fitt is good don't touch it by the way i hope CCP dev's heard me, and a lot of ammarian who play at eve with me think like me, but they didn't speak well in english ... end of transmission and maybe subscription for a lot of amarrian .. crr . ctrr... The other races already have half of our ships changed.. all other races can only fight in 50% their ships when they train only one system.. heck some races even fewer then that with 1 system... (ecm+rail+missiles for caldari) (shield+armor+speed+guns+missies for minmatarians) Dunno about gallante really.. even their dronboats seem to be somewhat guns to... ofcourse their all NOSed to hell these days thou. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:42:00 - [1276] Originally by: Borasao And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are still immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT at all. Even with CCP's proposed NOS nerf, a Dominix with 1 or 2 Neuts will still destroy the cap of your little inty. Your solution fails to address that fact, and focuses more on Nos for some reason.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:48:00 - [1277] Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: William DeMeo 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted: Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest. If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%. Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps. Now say your enemy has 4x of these fitted, and is a amarr say Apoc. Now your enemy has ****load of more cap then you and BAM just took of 2400cap from you at the cost of arouundsay 1800cap im to lasy to count. Now this pilot has 4 slots over for DPS (or lets say more neuts killing over 50% of your cap in one go) and drones to force you to tank also. To Boost he got plenty of cap himself to tank with and since hes going for CAPwarfare he might even have a capbooster. If he manages to kill your cap to 0 while hes at 30%+ hell have a recharge that wtf pwns your and can keep you down in cap while tanking. If your unlucky your ship uses cap to fire its guns also... to bad. _Ok this is all wishful thory_ But anyone with more then 2 braincells has to admit Neutralizers are a valid and usable wpn. So why dont we see them used... NOS its to powerful and on top of helping yourself althou it does it slower then its cousin it will kill its targets cap to 0%. NOS is to universal - and this is the only change to NOS that will put Neutralizers back in its full role while also balancing it and keeping it useful for its own purpose. Unless the Hardpoints for NOS wouldnt count for neutralizers or something... (witch would mean ppl would fil the NOS hardslots and the rest with Neuts heh) Dude. What the hell are you on about? Would he beat me by running 4 neuts AND lasers the most cap heavy weapon in game? What're you saying? Yarr
Sith Vador	Posted - 2007.08.03 20:54:00 - [1278] Amarr as a whole is one step closer to perfection. Sept of course now my curse/pilgram are turned into a nice display. But i'm fine with that. The Curse was the pride of amarr becuase most everything else was ****ty. Now everything else is better all around an well... most amarrians get what they want even if they don't know it. Now we don't have to worry about NOS killing our guns. An we have some missile boats so they dont' have to worry about cap as much. However the NOS changes are pretty stupid. But hey... Amarr FTW.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 21:03:00 - [1279] Edited by:**er on 03/08/2007 21:07:47 Edited by:**er on 03/08/2007 21:05:43 Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: William DeMeo 2 heavy neuts would drain you out of almost 1000 cap EVERY CYCLE. So instead of guns, you drain your target of 1k cap, drain yourself out of 1k cap. Incorrect. It is even in the text you quoted: Large named neut eats 600cap/24s at 25,2km range while draining less than 500cap (depends on skill, down to 375cap if I¦m correct) With the best named and max skills you are killing 1200 cap for 750 of your own. Or in other words, you are killing 1.6 cap for every 1 cap you invest. If you use them on a target with the same amount of cap as you have you will still have 37.5% cap left after neuting his cap from 100% to 0%. Didn't count skills. And not counting I'd have to dual rep full time and they wouldn't since I would do no dps. Now say your enemy has 4x of these fitted, and is a amarr say Apoc. Now your enemy has ****load of more cap then you and BAM just took of 2400cap from you at the cost of arouundsay 1800cap im to lasy to count. Now this pilot has 4 slots over for DPS (or lets say more neuts killing over 50% of your cap in one go) and drones to force you to tank also. To Boost he got plenty of cap himself to tank with and since hes going for CAPwarfare he might even have a capbooster. If he manages to kill your cap to 0 while hes at 30%+ hell have a recharge that wtf pwns your and can keep you down in cap while tanking. If your unlucky your ship uses cap to fire its guns also... to bad. _Ok this is all wishful thory_ But anyone with more then 2 braincells has to admit Neutralizers are a valid and usable wpn. So why dont we see them used... NOS its to powerful and on top of helping yourself althou it does it slower then its cousin it will kill its targets cap to 0%. NOS is to universal - and this is the only change to NOS that will put Neutralizers back in its full role while also balancing it and keeping it useful for its own purpose. Unless the Hardpoints for NOS wouldnt count for neutralizers or something... (witch would mean ppl would fil the NOS hardslots and the rest with Neuts heh) Dude. What the hell are you on about? Would he beat me by running 4 neuts AND lasers the most cap heavy weapon in game? What're you saying? Well ok that was just a example to show potential of the neutralizers. Lets say an apoc fits 2 missies and 6 neuts then. Hed be killing cap VERY fast. And the faster he does it the less his enemy tanks. And his spare cap goes to his tank. Like Apoc uses 350cap/7500 to kill 600/5000 of his enemies cap. (these numbers wont be correct couse i cant be arsed to check up real numbers but the APOC will have huge cap advantage) It can also field 1heavy and 4 light drones. Apoc can also with this use pretty much all lows for a great tank but might have to sacrifice a slots for extra powergrid(1bcu at max for 2 lauchers). If enemy use Booster ofcourse this apoc does to. Actually id fit a booster to it and it would have even playing field against other booster ships and have even greater advantage over those chooseing not to. Perhaps not the all win 1on1 couse it will actually have some low DPS (but creat DPS against CAP). but we dont want another NOSdomi on our hands. Also a good skilled pilots Laser takes the Cap comparable to Rails i believe doesnt it? On ships like apocalypse. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 21:42:00 - [1280] Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25 And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button. Next. Yarr

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 22:06:00 - [1281] Edited by:**er on 03/08/2007 22:09:08 Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25 And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button. Next. Yay balance, the ship has uses but are weak against some other systems. Its not an I-WIN button.. wich is a GOOD THING. I was trying to prove that Neutralizers didnt suck. They are not the replacement for the today powerful multiuse NOS thou. However i believe these changes will make ppl swift NOS for Neutralizers in some Cases and in others keep the New NOS on their ships. Making both systems USABLE and somewhat balanced. Also if were look above 1vs1 having 1 neut on a few ships that focus fire on one... youll get a nasty effect. Neuts are a Good wpn but outshined by the powerful NOS. But if these changes means you lost an i-win button and wants a new one then by all means... /beer "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.03 22:56:00 - [1282] Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25 And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button. Next. Heavens help Do you mean there are actually countersetups to neutheavy ships? This is soooo wrong, neuts are supposed to take nos place as a i-win button, we cant have have people beat them in everyday pvp setups. /sarcasm off This goes to show how warped peoples perceptions are. You actually take the fact that his setup can be countered by some other setups as a imbalance. As if fitting for capwarfare should mean you deserve to kill every non capwarfare ship out there. What are the "problematic" ships out there atm? The ships people tell n00bs to use if they want to pwn? Vexor/arbitrator, myrmidon, curse/pilgrim, vagabond. Why do people talk about gallente being OP? Because their blasterships are teh pwn? Is it the deimos and the megathron that kills everything left right and center with hardly any skills invested? Is it maybe the arazu? Why is the ishkur considered the best AF? Its neither news nor a disputable fact(well you can dispute everything but sometimes it makes you look stupid) that the combination of drones + nos + ew in meds + armortank isnt exactly very easy to counter. Dont get me started with damps or ecm either cause domi for example could easily fit countermodules to that and still pwn with nos + drones + armortank. This noschange addresses the obvious problems with nos, and no, none of the other solutions offered convinced me. The base sig approach in combination with nosslots got close though, but imho this is alot more subtle cause it still allows ships fitting for heavy capwarfare. Besides this also adresses ships like ishkur/ishtar, whose small/med nos would hardly be affected by a sig reduction when fighting ships in their sizeclass. Its like ccp said, this is the only approach that really fixes all the things they percieve as the current problems with nos. Dont blame them for not coming up with a better solution if you didnt manage either, and arguing about what the current problems with nos are and what not isnt helpful either, someone has to have the last word and nothing will ever please everyone so they can only do what they think is right themselves.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.03 23:15:00 - [1283] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25 And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button. Next. Heavens help Do you mean there are actually countersetups to neutheavy ships? This is soooo wrong, neuts are supposed to take nos place as a i-win button, we cant have have people beat them in everyday pvp setups. /sarcasm off This goes to show how warped peoples perceptions are. You actually take the fact that his setup can be countered by some other setups as a imbalance. As if fitting for capwarfare should mean you deserve to kill every non capwarfare ship out there. What are the "problematic" ships out there atm? The ships people tell n00bs to use if they want to pwn? Vexor/arbitrator, myrmidon, curse/pilgrim, vagabond. Why do people talk about gallente being OP? Because their blasterships are teh pwn? Is it the deimos and the megathron that kills everything left right and center with hardly any skills invested? Is it maybe the arazu? Why is the ishkur considered the best AF? Its neither news nor a disputable fact(well you can dispute everything but sometimes it makes you look stupid) that the combination of drones + nos + ew in meds + armortank isnt exactly very easy to counter. Dont get me started with damps or ecm either cause domi for example could easily fit countermodules to that and still pwn with nos + drones + armortank. This noschange addresses the obvious problems with nos, and no, none of the other solutions offered convinced me. The base sig approach in combination with nosslots got close though, but imho this is alot more subtle cause it still allows ships fitting for heavy capwarfare. Besides this also adresses ships like ishkur/ishtar, whose small/med nos would hardly be affected by a sig reduction when fighting ships in their sizeclass. Its like ccp said, this is the only approach that really fixes all the things they percieve as the current problems with nos. Dont blame them for not coming up with a better solution if you didnt manage either, and arguing about what the current problems with nos are and what not isnt helpful either, someone has to have the last word and nothing will ever please everyone so they can only do what they think is right themselves. Wall of Text (Common Sense Dmg) hits you for 546.7 dmg. QFE(QoutedForEeffect) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.03 23:45:00 - [1284] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 21:42:25 And then he meets a tempest and the tempest goes straight through his non-existing tank while it keeps on firing and have to tank a minimal amount of damage while the tempest pilot got one of the "new" nosses and ninja's the little cap the apoc has got left. So the geddon is left with no cap, no dps, no tank. it r truly an i-win button. Next. Heavens help Do you mean there are actually countersetups to neutheavy ships? This is soooo wrong, neuts are supposed to take nos place as a i-win button, we cant have have people beat them in everyday pvp setups. /sarcasm off This goes to show how warped peoples perceptions are. You actually take the fact that his setup can be countered by some other setups as a imbalance. As if fitting for capwarfare should mean you deserve to kill every non capwarfare ship out there. What are the "problematic" ships out there atm? The ships people tell n00bs to use if they want to pwn? Vexor/arbitrator, myrmidon, curse/pilgrim, vagabond. Why do people talk about gallente being OP? Because their blasterships are teh pwn? Is it the deimos and the megathron that kills everything left right and center with hardly any skills invested? Is it maybe the arazu? Why is the ishkur considered the best AF? Its neither news nor a disputable fact(well you can dispute everything but sometimes it makes you look stupid) that the combination of drones + nos + ew in meds + armortank isnt exactly very easy to counter. Dont get me started with damps or ecm either cause domi for example could easily fit countermodules to that and still pwn with nos + drones + armortank. This noschange addresses the obvious problems with nos, and no, none of the other solutions offered convinced me. The base sig approach in combination with nosslots got close though, but imho this is alot more subtle cause it still allows ships fitting for heavy capwarfare. Besides this also adresses ships like ishkur/ishtar, whose small/med nos would hardly be affected by a sig reduction when fighting ships in their sizeclass. Its like ccp said, this is the only approach that really fixes all the things they percieve as the current problems with nos. Dont blame them for not coming up with a better solution if you didnt manage either, and arguing about what the current problems with nos are and what not isnt helpful either, someone has to have the last word and nothing will ever please everyone so they can only do what they think is right themselves. A neut fitted ship can be countered. Thus it is not imbalanced, correct? Nos, however, as has been shown many times CANNOT possibly be countered by any dampeners, counter nos, ganksetups, other battleships that do not suck or targets with brain power that can pop drones or call for backup if they're losing the 10 minute long fight that is about to follow. Nos ships are thus HEAVILY imbalanced since NOTHING can kill them, not even damage because they can nos all cap out of ships which leaves ALL SHIPS unable to fire back, especially caldari/minmatar ships using projectiles and missiles. Your logic rules supreme, the nos ship is truly imbalanced and the code for the dominix must be found and destroyed at all cost. This should be the mission of all true* EVE players and I shall now hack the CCP database and delete any reference to nosferatu's and nos ships BECOURZ IT IS RUININ THE GAMEW FOR EVERY1!!111 And stop with the /sarcasm will you? I get it. *true eve player = a person that believes EVE should rely only on sp amount and not on strategy and thinking since this is unfair because some people obviously don't have the same amount of brainpower as others. Welcome to EVE Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 00:13:00 - [1285] Edited by:**er on 04/08/2007 00:13:48 Originally by: William DeMeo A neut fitted ship can be countered. Thus it is not imbalanced, correct? Nos, however, as has been shown many times CANNOT possibly be countered by any dampeners, counter nos, ganksetups, other battleships that do not suck or targets with brain power that can pop drones or call for backup if they're losing the 10 minute long fight that is about to follow. Nos ships are thus HEAVILY imbalanced since NOTHING can kill them, not even damage because they can nos all cap out of ships which leaves ALL SHIPS unable to fire back, especially caldari/minmatar ships using projectiles and missiles. Your logic rules supreme, the nos ship is truly imbalanced and the code for the dominix must be found and destroyed at all cost. This should be the mission of all true* EVE players and I shall now hack the CCP database and delete any reference to nosferatu's and nos ships BECOURZ IT IS RUININ THE GAMEW FOR EVERY1!!111 And stop with the /sarcasm will you? I get it. *true eve player = a person that believes EVE should rely only on sp amount and not on strategy and thinking since this is unfair because some people obviously don't have the same amount of brainpower as others. Welcome to EVE NOSship are more imbalanced even if its not unkillable its still extreemly harder to kill then a NeutShip. NOS can counter NEUTs. However todays NOS doesnt have a countermodule. Sure there are strategies against ships Racking NOS. There is a difference. There are strategies to fight snipers also, still i see snipers from both proj/rail/laser. Imagine Rails were so good that even if you had projectile bonuses youd use rails instead. Thats how NOS is... I still cant understand how ppl cant agree that NOS is imbalanced... NOS doesnt make GOD-Mode but they are to powerful. I mean why did they Balance Nanoboats... there where ways to kill them to right? The more balance there are between races/wpns/ships the more all different ships will be used and the harder it will be to predict what your enemy will be using or flying. Leaving NOS as it is and tell ppl to learn how to fight it will just narrow more and more ppl into the ships that are more usable and univerally better then others. I dont want just half om my sandbox filled with sand and the rest grass or something unusable to play with. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.04 00:18:00 - [1286] yeah and I never whined over nanoboats, even though I never flew any of them. The players can't be blamed for using only one type of nos though, since there only is 1 type of nos. I'd be extremely happy if CCP would make different types of nos's, maybe some that are working as on the test server currently or nos's that can nos BS's more heavily and frigs less. But as it is, there is one type of nosferatu. There are 3 types of sniping weapons. If CCP would give some more ships then the curse nos bonus's and actually made some more nos's I'm sure we'd see more different types of nos's come into play Yarr
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 00:22:00 - [1287] Originally by: William DeMeo yeah and I never whined over nanoboats, even though I never flew any of them. The players can't be blamed for using only one type of nos though, since there only is 1 type of nos. I'd be extremely happy if CCP would make different types of nos's, maybe some that are working as on the test server currently or nos's that can nos BS's more heavily and frigs less. But as it is, there is one type of nosferatu. There are 3 types of sniping weapons. If CCP would give some more ships then the curse nos bonus's and actually made some more nos's I'm sure we'd see more different types of nos's come into play So you dont agree that neutralizer is of same sort as NOS, kinda like Proj/Laser/Hybrid are all guns? And yeah would be cool with more _wpns_ that fights in the CAPwar. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.04 00:28:00 - [1288] Yes I actually do. But neuts suck hard (please don't make me explain how they suck more) and people will always go for whats better because people like to win. So nos > neuts. Yarr
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.04 01:07:00 - [1289] Originally by: Fager 1)Curse and pilgrims will have a harder time doing what they did if they even can do what they did. Most ppl point out that they are still effective and balanced not DEAD. 2)Battleships can still use neutralizers to fend of small ships. They cant use a universal NOS for it thou. 3) They are just taking away the ability of NOS performing its own and the neutralizers job, it truly was Universal in use and even easier to fit then the neutralizer. They are Balancing NOS to neutralizers and many other systems. When most of the suggestion said to ppl whining about NOS is train it yurself.. it shows how bad it really is. NOS is to good and have no other module in its category as good as itself. This isnt balanced. 4)If the new era will bring Neutralizer Domis then yeahaa good for them, the domis will still be good if it works. However a Neutdomi won kill its enemies CAP/Providing its Tank/Fending Of small and big ships alike with one module. NEUT domis can fend of small ships, kill Big ships CAP but at expense of its own Tank and Cap. 5)I trust CCP takes and valuates both the bad and good points with this change and make a decision if they can find and use a better change. 6)Please see out of your little domi box, there are more wrongs with NOS then just on domis Domis. I want to fit other stuff then it, but currently all other options are inferior in all ways. Thinking out of the NOS-Box is pointless. Im flying caldari for the record. You can't read right? And as everbody else (especially Viper) you have your fun in not reading good ideas and not getting the point that more than 2 ships are affected. Of course not you Raven because of the IWin in every Mission 6 Torpedo-Launcher fitting. Because you never saw a spaceship from close expect of your own you think this NOS-Modules are for nothing else than the Domi and this is a cheat, that's what your thinking. And it's wrong. Fittings from all races are affected man, good fittings, Small NOS on frigates, Medium NOS on Cruisers... (all can't NOS my Battleship after the patch if their Cap is not below mine). The module is worthless to a frigate, who will spend a high-slot on a frigate against something bigger if he can't go for sure that he gets a bonus from it? Ahh, he can fit a Neut... yeah sure and leech a Cruiser with a frigate and pumping 20 Cap Boosters in 2 minutes to it. But maybe he just wanted some energy from the bigger cruiser which has a hell of a cap and will never come under 80% cap... ;-) One last time for rookies like you. I think I have 95% of the people behind me if I tell this... ;-) 1) I don't even fly a Domi at the moment, I fly several other Gallente-Ships and Caldari also. I know the Domi and I'm not thinking about a Domi at the moment, I think about all ships of this d*amn universe which has to change the fitting because of a small NOS (useless in future) or some med NOS (also useless in future) because they are worthless on any other ship than a Curse which at least has a bonus. 2) Do you have more toys at home after this patch is implemented and everyone in a Domi will fit a Neutralizer instead of the NOS? Do you think you can escape from this Domi? NO! Your Crow will get kissed by the Domi and the problem is not solved. Even that he spent some energy is not a problem, he will laugh the whole day about your Crow. 3) Why don't you get it. I count at min. 3-4 perfect solutions which all are better than CCP's (sorry CCP). Some have complex math behind, some are easy to integrate and logic like the (Signature Solution). 4) How far can human stupidity go? You want to penalize people in EvE for your bad experience with NOS. Maybe your Crow got splashed by some Domis or whatever. But that's no reason why to deny every good solution in this forum from people who got their fingers out of the a$$ and made some good comments with great solutions to our big NOS-Problem. br, sry for typos speed
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.04 01:46:00 - [1290] Short example why I got that angry: ----------------------------------- Crow vs. Domi: Here we have a problem without nerfing... >> Crow engages, maybe to close, Domi uses Large NOS, Crow is empty, bang he got ya! That's our imbalanced problem which you don't like and I can understand. every Frigate, Cruiser with low signature from T1 to T2 vs. a Raven, Mega, Abaddon, bla bla bla, any Battleship: Here we have a problem WITH your pretty CCP-Nerf. >> I'm engaging the Domi with a stabber or an assault frig or whatever... at the moment I decide to use one slot for a NOS, deciding to not fit a Cap Booster, it seriously helps me maintaining my Cap against the BIG Domi and is an insurance if I keep at distance that I not get drained, i'll getting managed to tackle this Battleship and I'm tanking his low damage because of my low signature. I'm happy, maybe I also have some E-War drones or ECM or something like that to hold him. Mooooeeep... not possible after the patch... because of my low damage that I do to the Battleship, the Battleship don't have to tank and because he don't used his Cap, I cannot use my NOS... it's worthless. --- This situation happens every day man... some small fights, larger fights, people with T2-Fitted Battleship thinks they are the greatest and getting popped by a well balanced fitting (including NOS to engage bigger targets) from a T1-Cruiser and his friends waiting at the safespot. May be it's a ratting Raven who didn't watched the Local, maybe it's in a fleet fight where people fighting to death and everybody tells afterwards: "GF Man, it was close... I almost had ya!" Why to the hell you want to destroy such fittings, why you wann nerf a module everyone can use on every ship and not just a Domi 4 times looking like a cheap cheat? People come on... never fitted a NOS on a frigate and survived because of the extra CAP for tanking you had against an evil Thorax? You seriously want that everyone fits a Neut and drain his own cap while he needs a med slot for Cap Booster to get some new Cap? This NERF has HUGE impact on a MASS of fittings. Fittings on every ship of every race. That's what you don't want to understand... :-( THERE ARE BETTER SOLUTIONS !!! WHY NOT USE THEM ? br, speed

murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.08.04 02:09:00 - [1291] Originally by: speedcat stuff The way CCP is balancing nos is absolutely perfect. It removes nos as an 'offensive' and primary weapon system, allowing neutralizers to have a role in combat and it levels the playing field from a capacitor standpoint between ships if dissimilar size. No longer will every single HAC and AF be crushed by a single large Nos, or even multiple Nos. Now it will require that battleships give up some of their cap in order to cripple a target's cap. There will still be a huge advantage with larger ships over smaller ships, but this change will really help situations where you have multiple ships against a single target, and everyone is equipped with Nos. This change will actually HELP smaller ships by a large amount. Small nos will absolutely 100% have a role in combat with the upcoming changes. Frigates will be able to leech cap from larger targets because they'll be running their cap at a much lower level than cruisers or battleships, and will be achieving a lower level of cap much earlier in the fight. Nos will still be extremely usefull for fighting larger ships with smaller ships, but it won't be the crushing 'I win' button for larger ships that it is now. But then there are always neutralizers for that. I really don't fly any setups that are that dependant on Nos. Even my Domi and Ishtar setups arn't based on killing a targets cap. It's just too limiting when you come across a target not requiring cap to use it's weapons. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.04 02:10:00 - [1292] The proposed NOS changes do nothing to change the dangers of larger energy warfare modules to tacklers. A heavy neut is even more effective at taking out an inty or frigate trying to tackle a battleship. Secondly, NOS does not render an "entire ship class" useless. Interceptors are still great at taking out other frigate class ships, many cruisers, barges, industrials, shuttles, getting warp-ins, and more. The presence of a heavy nos/neut means that they can't tackle a battleship with impunity since the BS's guns can't track and missiles won't hit. Even then, all the tackler needs to do is overload their warp disruptor, gang up with a pilot fitting skirmish warfare mods, or invest in a faction disruptor. So even if you think heavy NOS are overpowered because they provide a counter for battleships against many frigate-class tacklers, there are a)ways for inty pilots to avoid them and b)the proposed NOS "fix" won't do a thing to rectify it.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.04 02:36:00 - [1293] Originally by: torN Deception The proposed NOS changes do nothing to change the dangers of larger energy warfare modules to tacklers. A heavy neut is even more effective at taking out an inty or frigate trying to tackle a battleship. Yup... you are 100% correct. The main difference is that when you use NOS, it's even better than free... you gain cap by damaging your target's cap. Would you expect your hybrid blasters to heal your armor when you shot at a target and damaged the target's armor?
Captain Alcatraz Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.08.04 04:55:00 - [1294] Edited by: Captain Alcatraz on 04/08/2007 05:02:50 Thanks for screwing up the Curse and Pilgrim CCP... Give them a role bonus or something before this patch hits live or its just ridiculous, your nerf hurts as bad the NOS-Domi and the Curse/Pilgrim... The Domi is overpowered atm, Curse / Pilgrim are not (or not too much), you have to revise the NOS change or Amarr will loose its (pretty much only) two decent ships for solo pvp, you dont have to be a genius to understand this... This is for you CCP, Grats! Edited link because the word R3t4rd3d is censored on these boards
Teramaxus	Posted - 2007.08.04 05:55:00 - [1295] I've given this some though, and I fail to see how this doesn't completely nerf Caldari. It's exactly what Caldari players have been asking for for years. Lose the Kinetic bonus: check Gain a damage bonus: check Gain a ROF bonus: check Speed boost: check ... Amarr: The New Caldari Tera
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.04 07:00:00 - [1296] Edited by: zero2espect on 04/08/2007 07:00:27 LOL. can some of the pro-ccp experts who seem to have endorsed this change and believe that if they shout-down every post in this thread it makes them more right, please explain how this nos change will "improve" the fitting or balancing of almost the entire amarr ship base. forget the pilgrim and curse (they are ruined) - pick some ships and see how you go. prophecy, absolution, zealot, maller. let's see what masterstroke of a fitting you can come up with that this patch would improve their usage...? i've spent the last 3 days on and off in quickfit playing around and can't come close. i think every1 assumes amarr have huge drone bays or deal massive amounts of damage or something which means we can fit "racks of neuts" and still do damage? we can't even fit missile launchers to the majority of our ships, we can't change damage types to augment our modest dps output nor fit "passive tanks" that can outlast naturally regenning shield tankers. as stated before, we cannot zero our cap to use nos or neuts and still deal damage OR repair. maybe i need to draw diagrams or something...? //sometimes less is more...zero
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.04 07:08:00 - [1297] I read a dev post earlier in this thread stating that one of the reasons for the way the change was designed was that having a large capacitor should be a benefit rather than a detriment. I've been doing a bit of a thought experiment to try and prove that the change works in that respect and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't. Imagine that we have two ships, one with 6000 max cap and the other with 7500 max cap. They both have two heavy nos fitted. If they are both at 3000 cap, the first will be at 50% and the second will be at 40%. That means that the one with more cap will be less vulnerable to nos at a given cap level. However, you need to consider cap recharge and the cap levels that people will be fighting at. Let's assume they're fighting at about 35% cap each: Scenario 1: Ship 1 is on 30% cap Ship 2 is on 32% cap The cap difference is 150. 240 cap transfers from ship 2 to ship 1. Scenario 2: Ship 1 is on 32% cap Ship 2 is on 30% cap The cap difference is 120. 120 cap transfers from ship 1 to ship 2. Essentially, a ship with more cap has more to suck out at a given difference in cap level percentage, and we DO need to think about percentages rather than absolute levels because cap recharge is based on percentages. Only ships that operate sub-20% using cap boosters will really benefit from having more cap. I don't think it's a problem, of course, and the changes are still the best thing that could have been implemented in my opinion but I'd like it known that the idea that a ship with more cap isn't penalised under the new system is incorrect. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Cansu	Posted - 2007.08.04 07:20:00 - [1298] It's Stupid because: * 100 ships nossing 1 ship, only 1/100 in effect. It's stupid as hell. * This shouldn't be a "sell your nos, buy a neutralizer" patch. * Don't think only like small ship vs big ship. Nos can be perfectly nerfed with a signature radius which will give same effect. * Nos bonus means nothing. Nos bonus ships like pilgrim, curse, ashimmu, bhaalgorn screwed big time.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 08:49:00 - [1299] CCP, REMOVE NOSF FROM GAIM, AND DON'T MAKE US CRY ABOUt GOOD TIMES IN PAST I have a sugestion: let's guns not deal damage if you have more hp, than target. It's stupied. And you donn't want to listen to peoples. Why don't you simply boost neut's???? Why alway nerf, nerf, nerf. I'm afraied of learning new ships, cause it can be nerfed, when i spoent a couple of months!!! I wish you happy way of sony. You r showing your attitued 2 your customers again
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:01:00 - [1300] By the way, curse have no capacitor enourph to neut cap for more, than 18 sec. I don't now another ship, that have such a useless weapons. Why do you want to do such a change. You simply DESTROING the amars recons. THey have 1 strategy: nos target, distrupts it guns and hit wiyh drones. Now nosfing is impossible. Neut. Curse neut 2 times quicklier than loss capacitor. Good. But if i'me fighting against minmatar cruisr, HAC, BC. He has 0% cap, he can shoot,. I have 0% he can shoot, but my weapon can be destroyed and i cant tank, Can't neut, ( i cant nos from the very beginning neut too god) i cant kill anybody with such a nos. I'd better use arbitaritor with the same tracking distraptors and drones, but 20 times cheaper. Don't say, i can do something to my target, i can't and i do know it from all my tries in test serv. THANK YOU CCP, FOR MY WASTE OF 3 MONTH TRAINIGN TO AMAR RECON!!!!!!!!!

Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:18:00 - [1301] Originally by: William DeMeo A neut fitted ship can be countered. Thus it is not imbalanced, correct? Nos, however, as has been shown many times CANNOT possibly be countered by any dampeners, counter nos, ganksetups, other battleships that do not suck or targets with brain power that can pop drones or call for backup if they're losing the 10 minute long fight that is about to follow. Nos ships are thus HEAVILY imbalanced since NOTHING can kill them, not even damage because they can nos all cap out of ships which leaves ALL SHIPS unable to fire back, especially caldari/minmatar ships using projectiles and missiles. Your logic rules supreme, the nos ship is truly imbalanced and the code for the dominix must be found and destroyed at all cost. This should be the mission of all true* EVE players and I shall now hack the CCP database and delete any reference to nosferatu's and nos ships BECOURZ IT IS RUININ THE GAMEW FOR EVERY1!!111 And stop with the /sarcasm will you? I get it. true eve player = a person that believes EVE should rely only on sp amount and not on strategy and thinking since this is unfair because some people obviously don't have the same amount of brainpower as others. Welcome to EVE You fail at sarcasm. Please tell me the counter to nos that isnt at the same time a counter to every other* shipsetup. Yes we all know there is stuff called EW and it can be used to disable ships, according to your logic a module that remotly selfdestructs another ship would be completly fine cause it could be countered by EW. Im not disputing that there are setups to specifically counter nos, but those setups will have huge drawbacks for fighting normal shipsetups. People thought nanophoons where a problem, truth is nos was a problem since it allowed them to keep their mwd running without wasting capcharges by the dozen and at the same time cap killing their enemies tank and breaking it with pathetic dps. P.S. Yes you can kill a nosdomi with superior dps, but that would need many millions of SP and even then you better pray he doesnt triple damp you and just stays at range with you frantically trying to keep your mwd running and getting over the >1 min locking time. Cause you know, EW can be also used to counter YOUR dps ship, and the domi actually has the medslots to pull it off.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:21:00 - [1302] I can't sleep... i;m thinking about this change... please if you want to nerf nos like this, make compoair be in %. For example nos can't darain not when you habe 29 % an enemy <28.99% but when you have 100 units in capacitor an ememy 99 or lower. And to amar recon when you have capacitor three times more, than enemy do. at any other time big target can't be drained at all
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:23:00 - [1303] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: William DeMeo A neut fitted ship can be countered. Thus it is not imbalanced, correct? Nos, however, as has been shown many times CANNOT possibly be countered by any dampeners, counter nos, ganksetups, other battleships that do not suck or targets with brain power that can pop drones or call for backup if they're losing the 10 minute long fight that is about to follow. Nos ships are thus HEAVILY imbalanced since NOTHING can kill them, not even damage because they can nos all cap out of ships which leaves ALL SHIPS unable to fire back, especially caldari/minmatar ships using projectiles and missiles. Your logic rules supreme, the nos ship is truly imbalanced and the code for the dominix must be found and destroyed at all cost. This should be the mission of all true* EVE players and I shall now hack the CCP database and delete any reference to nosferatu's and nos ships BECOURZ IT IS RUININ THE GAMEW FOR EVERY1!!111 And stop with the /sarcasm will you? I get it. true eve player = a person that believes EVE should rely only on sp amount and not on strategy and thinking since this is unfair because some people obviously don't have the same amount of brainpower as others. Welcome to EVE You fail at sarcasm. Please tell me the counter to nos that isnt at the same time a counter to every other* shipsetup. Yes we all know there is stuff called EW and it can be used to disable ships, according to your logic a module that remotly selfdestructs another ship would be completly fine cause it could be countered by EW. Im not disputing that there are setups to specifically counter nos, but those setups will have huge drawbacks for fighting normal shipsetups. People thought nanophoons where a problem, truth is nos was a problem since it allowed them to keep their mwd running without wasting capcharges by the dozen and at the same time cap killing their enemies tank and breaking it with pathetic dps. P.S. Yes you can kill a nosdomi with superior dps, but that would need many millions of SP and even then you better pray he doesnt triple damp you and just stays at range with you frantically trying to keep your mwd running and getting over the >1 min locking time. Cause you know, EW can be also used to counter YOUR dps ship, and the domi actually has the medslots to pull it off. Nos domi ... rofl. Kill drones and forget about it. ! web< and it's no problem, than shoot him and by by
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:31:00 - [1304] Originally by: Crash Sagramo By the way, curse have no capacitor enourph to neut cap for more, than 18 sec. I don't now another ship, that have such a useless weapons. Why do you want to do such a change. You simply DESTROING the amars recons. THey have 1 strategy: nos target, distrupts it guns and hit wiyh drones. Now nosfing is impossible. Neut. Curse neut 2 times quicklier than loss capacitor. Good. But if i'me fighting against minmatar cruisr, HAC, BC. He has 0% cap, he can shoot,. I have 0% he can shoot, but my weapon can be destroyed and i cant tank, Can't neut, ( i cant nos from the very beginning neut too god) i cant kill anybody with such a nos. I'd better use arbitaritor with the same tracking distraptors and drones, but 20 times cheaper. Don't say, i can do something to my target, i can't and i do know it from all my tries in test serv. THANK YOU CCP, FOR MY WASTE OF 3 MONTH TRAINIGN TO AMAR RECON!!!!!!!!! If your target looses cap 2x(more like 3x btw) as fast as you you basicly will be at 50% when he is at 0%. You know you can turn off a module before the enemy explodes? Also dont put 5 neuts on a hac, well maybe for one cycle ... once your cap is at around 40% you can assume his cap to be dead, so turn off your neuts and cycle them on him infrequently as you have cap. For BCs you need to stay at range cause they are perfectly able to waste you before you cap them out, the only BC that should give you serious trouble is the passive tanked drake and that has nothing to do with the noschange. Tip of the day, use atleast 1 small t2 neut. It will have a range comfortly above 10km, is easily sustainable, and cycles as fast as a med nos while having the capdrain of 2 heavy t1 nos, thats more than enought to keep someones caprecharge down and it also will help you with fitting since it requires much less pg.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:33:00 - [1305] Originally by: Crash Sagramo Nos domi ... rofl. Kill drones and forget about it. ! web< and it's no problem, than shoot him and by by. Or keep at range 25km, and then destroy drones, than come closer and kill him. Nos ship like dominix, curse pilgrim use drones to fight, and nos to tank and brake enemy tank. Kill drones and you got him, he can only run. But nos domi has another fit's then nos one, but amar recon hasn't. Amar recon can't neut good, becourse it hasn't cpacitor enouph. And try to neut large ship like batttle cruiser (tech 1!!!!!) is useless. Oh no, i have been found out . And here i was thinking that bringing your locktime to dreadnaught lvls with damps and periodically rescooping my drones before you ever got a lock on them would help me.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:34:00 - [1306] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 09:36:39 Quote: Also dont put 5 neuts on a hac, well maybe for one cycle ... once your cap is at around 40% you can assume his cap to be dead, so turn off your neuts and cycle them on him infrequently as you have cap. For BCs you need to stay at range cause they are perfectly able to waste you before you cap them out, the only BC that should give you serious trouble is the passive tanked drake and that has nothing to do with the noschange. What should i do next? I will wait for 30-40 seconds till a be able to activate at least 1!!! neut. During this time i'll be dead, becourse i can't tank. Smal neut... do you fit small guns on you hac? Curse becomes useless with such nos. I usealy fit 2 nos 2 neut & 1 small nos. And there are times i have no enorph cap to run 2 neut. What will be now. What for curse will be needed? I don't say about pilgrim, he wil be dead simply.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 09:48:00 - [1307] Originally by: Crash Sagramo What should i do next? I will wait for 30-40 seconds till a be able to activate at least 1!!! neut. During this time i'll be dead, becourse i can't tank. Smal neut... do you fit small guns on you hac? Please think a bit instead of just doing kneejerk reactions at a change you dont like. You cant compare fitting small guns to a cruiser to this because you actually get boni for small neuts. But to answer your question, you need to wear the enemy BC down. How many BCs can damage you from outside 15km after you put a couple of tracking disruptors on them? You need a mwd to stay at that range ofc, but then again they also need that mwd, have 2x the drain from your neuts and are naturally alot slower. You probably get away with pulsing your mwd a couple of times once they have to rely on their capcharges to do anything. Yes you probably need a capinjector to pull that off reliably, but keep in mind that while BCs have significantly more cap to start, their recharge isnt actually that much better. P.S. I never said it didnt get harder to defeat people if your flying capwarfare ships(and pilgrim and bhaal REALLY need some help), but then again i might actually start to respect people who successfully fly these ships, cause now it requires alot of knowledge about the ships you face and also some skill at estimating how many neuts you need to cycle for how long in a given situation.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 10:00:00 - [1308] I'm thinking about new set up of curse since i've read that dev blog. It's impocible to make curse of any use. Neut can't be used becourse of small capacitor size, nos can't be use, becourse without neut they didn't leach anything, with them they can't also, becourse your neut works too good. Cap injector? Well it is silly to fit cap module to neutralize enemy cap. Iven then 800 cap at 22 sec = 36 per sec = 432 per 12 sec you can activate only 2 neut, and so on, and so on. My math education says to me, that buing curse is waste of money, it's as usefull as destroyer is.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 10:13:00 - [1309] Edited by: Bentula on 04/08/2007 10:14:01 Originally by: Crash Sagramo I'm thinking about new set up of curse since i've read that dev blog. It's impocible to make curse of any use. Neut can't be used becourse of small capacitor size, nos can't be use, becourse without neut they didn't leach anything, with them they can't also, becourse your neut works too good. Cap injector? Well it is silly to fit cap module to neutralize enemy cap. Iven then 800 cap at 22 sec = 36 per sec = 432 per 12 sec you can activate only 2 neut, and so on, and so on. My math education says to me, that buing curse is waste of money, it's as usefull as destroyer is. Look at capinjectors and ways to incorporate them into your setup. Every time you have to inject a boostercharge you can feel pleased that your enemy needed 3 in the same time(which isnt possbile). Also the curse never was about getting huge amounts of cap, cause unlike a nosdomi it would be hardpressed to convert that cap into a tank anyway. It always was about purely destroying your enemys cap while avoiding direct fire by either speed or ew(inferior tank but more speed, better sig and more medslots than domi). Quote: Iven then 800 cap at 22 sec = 36 per sec = 432 per 12 sec you can activate only 2 neut, and so on, and so on. Curse gets a bonus on capuse of neuts. Activating a med neut costs you around 120cap with good skills, so you can run 3 neuts in 12 sec, have some to spare, and your natural recharge. 3 med neuts however will kill up to 1080 cap of your enemy per 12 sec, even if he injects a 800 charge every 12 secs(that means dual cap injector btw) he still would have -23cap/s and be unable to use whatever that cap was intended for in the first place. Edit: I understand that fitting small neuts and capinjectors sounds wrong for you considering your setup worked fine without them before, but atleast give em a chance before you ditch the curse.
jam6549 Malicious Intentions Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.04 10:55:00 - [1310] Originally by: Le Bon Curse/Pilgrim/Bhalgorn will need a bonus to stick to the old method else these ships will become useless. AGREED Jam6549

Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 10:59:00 - [1311] CUrse/pilgrim will be useless. I'll be very happy if you have a fit, that will prove another
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 11:12:00 - [1312] Edited by: Bentula on 04/08/2007 11:12:49 Originally by: Crash Sagramo CUrse/pilgrim will be useless. I'll be very happy if you have a fit, that will prove another Yes ofcourse i could go to the testserver, and mess around with fittings and do testfights until i find a setup that works for me. Then again the same setup might not work for you, and WHY again do i have to work out your setups? Make a thread in ships and modules about that specific ship or go on the testserver and find one of the people with a working setup if you feel lazy. I told you what imho is a possible way, which is fitting neut heavy(not necessarily all neut), including a cap injector and using a small neut instead of nos to keep caprecharge of your enemy at 0. I would also advise fitting EW, either tracking disruptors and stay away from non turret ships or damps.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 11:45:00 - [1313] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 11:46:21 You have only your opinion, and i have facts and my practice! I'll say again: 1)without nosfs, curse will be useless. 2) With nosfs working like was said in dev blog curse will be useless. It will be beble to destroyed even with tech 1 cruiser
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.04 11:54:00 - [1314] When will this Amarr-Recon-Whining stop? This patch will hurt the Curse not the slightest. After the Patch I'll still destroy 1000 Cap in one cycle (6 seconds) with 3x Med Neuts fitted, spending around 250 Cap myself. Every Frig, Cruiser or Battlecruiser will still instantly die to that. I like the idea, that I can fly around in Ceptors/AFs/HACs engaging uncovered Battleships. If they're smart, they've Neuts instead of NOS, and they'll be fine, but if they go for the lame NOS(I'm lazy as hell and want to suck every d**k dry)solution, then they'll be screwed. So stop complaining, and use your brains to get the job done. Playerskill > Skillpoints .
Jitterian	Posted - 2007.08.04 12:31:00 - [1315] Originally by: Amaldor Themodius Would be nice if CCP developed a quarterly player census by evemail inviting players to vote on these core rules modifications.. The forum trolls have far too much sway in this game and exert heavy influence. A reasonably small number of players (by comparison to total player base) post similar / identical threads and spin there ideas from mole hills into mountains that dont appear to align with the broader player community.. The current forum system is so rotten it borders on corrupt and steps should be taken to prevent it from worsenin. Already the large mega allainces have developed strategies to encourage members to lobby the forums / ccp to undertake their interests as game development(Goons & BOB being the most obvious). What is needed imho is transparency and a quarterly census would achieve that by providing a snap shot of the quantitative values recieved once the voting player had cast their vote. Alliances would still group think and use collaboration but at least their influence would not extend beyond the single vote of each eve player. Quote: true true true i completely agree
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 12:31:00 - [1316] Originally by: Grytok When will this Amarr-Recon-Whining stop? When people who have no experience with those ships stop posting that they are "not hurt in the slightest". Quote: This patch will hurt the Curse not the slightest. After the Patch I'll still destroy 1000 Cap in one cycle (6 seconds) with 3x Med Neuts fitted, spending around 250 Cap myself. Every Frig, Cruiser or Battlecruiser will still instantly die to that. Neut cycle is twice as long as a nos cylce. Medium neuts have a 12 sec ROF. And BCs have over 3000 cap.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.04 13:40:00 - [1317] Edited by: Shadowsword on 04/08/2007 13:43:31 Originally by: Crash Sagramo 1)without nosfs, curse will be useless. An Arbitrator with tanked resists, more HP, +2 mid slots for tracking disruptors, +1 high and 2 more launchers . Whose price will probably be around 50-60 millions. Not to mention some not so minor things, like a +15m/s, a bigger capacitor that also recharge faster, +80km locking range, +40mm scan resolution and +16 sensor strenght... How will that be useless? The Nano-Curse won't be a solopwn machine anymore, but a standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 13:56:00 - [1318] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 13:59:15 Originally by: Shadowsword The Nano-Curse won't be a solopwn machine anymore, but a standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets Small (like less than 5 people total small), yes. And it won't be more useful than the other recons there. Anything above, not really. In medium+ gangs ships die before their cap fails even with a curse neuting them, so that ability is pretty pointless there. Webs, damps, increased scramrange and ECM will still be very useful. Yes, a curse has also TDs but those do not make up for the abilites of the other recons. And in fleets it is utterly pointless. You cannot use TDs as counter to snipers. With maxxed EW range skills they have an optimal of 60k and a falloff of 36k. This means you have a 50% failure rate for them at 96k and a 94% failure rate for them at 132k. Basically the curse will be Ok for small gangs and worse than the other recons for medium - large gangs and utterly pointless in fleets. What makes up for these disadvantages? The curse will not be useless, mind you, but it WILL be a good deal weaker on average than the other recons.
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:05:00 - [1319] Edited by: Long Fang on 04/08/2007 14:05:53
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:06:00 - [1320] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: murder one This change will actually HELP smaller ships by a large amount. Small nos will absolutely 100% have a role in combat with the upcoming changes. Frigates will be able to leech cap from larger targets because they'll be running their cap at a much lower level than cruisers or battleships, and will be achieving a lower level of cap much earlier in the fight. That makes no sense at all, just because a battleship has more cap than a frigate doesn't mean the frigate is going to cap out first. I've seen plenty of stable frigate setups and plenty more un-stable battleship setups. In a straight fight a frigate has no business taking on a battleship as its gonna get crushed. However what this does do is allows a single frigate to pin down a battleship for large amounts of time. A battleship has vastly superior engery systems to a frigate so it makes sense that the BS could NOS it dry. When attacking BS with frigates you should be doing it in groups anyway where the BS can;t NOS everyone, this is one of the many reasons why i support ether the 'NOS with sig radius' or 'NOS hard points' ideas, as ether will still stop you from NOS small ships or at least lots of small ships at once. At the end of the day tho as NOS stands atm its simply something that needs some careful thought and tactics to get around. My personal fav's are having more NOS than the enemy , electronic warfare, or using range, all of which are valid tactics and also effective.

Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:12:00 - [1321] Originally by: Shadowsword A standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets Except now it can't fill its role as its not getting any boost to its NOS which is the entire point of the ship. As an EW boat it is only effective against turrets which many ships don't use, as an EW platform it is surpassed by both the Arazu and Rook which can effect ALL ships.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:18:00 - [1322] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: William DeMeo stuff You fail at sarcasm. Please tell me the counter to nos that isnt at the same time a counter to every other shipsetup. Yes we all know there is stuff called EW and it can be used to disable ships, according to your logic a module that remotly selfdestructs another ship would be completly fine cause it could be countered by EW. Im not disputing that there are setups to specifically counter nos, but those setups will have huge drawbacks for fighting normal shipsetups. People thought nanophoons where a problem, truth is nos was a problem since it allowed them to keep their mwd running without wasting capcharges by the dozen and at the same time cap killing their enemies tank and breaking it with pathetic dps. P.S. Yes you can kill a nosdomi with superior dps, but that would need many millions of SP and even then you better pray he doesnt triple damp you and just stays at range with you frantically trying to keep your mwd running and getting over the >1 min locking time. Cause you know, EW can be also used to counter YOUR dps ship, and the domi actually has the medslots to pull it off. Sorry for failing at sarcam But you fail at logic. You have, in your thread made my point. Let me show you: Quote: Yes we all know there is stuff called EW and it can be used to disable ships Quote: Im not disputing that there are setups to specifically counter nos, but those setups will have huge drawbacks for fighting normal shipsetups. of course a dampening ship would never be able to kill any other closerange battleship that can't target them. Infact I'm as sure about that as I'm sure a heavy dps ship would never be able to kill any other ship then a nosdomi because against other ships they have huge drawbacks Quote: according to your logic a module that remotly selfdestructs another ship would be completly fine cause it could be countered by EW. Wait, I thought you wanted people to fit guns? to the PM Concerning the midslots of a domi; five midslots: 1x warp disruptor 1x 100mn microwarpdrive 3 damps. The insane nossing power of the nosdomi's two heavy nos's can permarun the mwd and thus keep their range, even though all gunships fit mwd's AND webs (something you will not have with this setup). After that you will fit cap boosters and your OMG INSANE tank and your top speed will be at 800m/s. If you're lucky you can take a battleship down to under 20km with three damps, no way if he's got a sensor booster. Assuming you can actually keep your range vs. the hostile you'd still have the problem of your drones getting raped. Webbed heavy drones = slow as hell sentry drones = slow as hell Domi with dead drones = TEH IMBA UNKILLABLE SHIP WITH NO COUNTERZ Get a clue, I hope you're an alt because 2006.12 highsec missionrunners I fear don't know so much about the game or it's balance. Yarr
silken mouth	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:21:00 - [1323] The nos change is crap, because it gives bonuses to badly skilled pilots over well skilled pilots. You think you will see less noobs in nosphoons or nosdomis? You are wrong, you will see more, because with this 'fix' finally the noobs have the advantage over the old players that made CCP big. Its a kick in the face of the people that made CCP prosper in the early days.. Thanks alot, and go ahead do a sony, you will pay the price eventually, since infintys development is progressing.
IPyric	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:30:00 - [1324] yep your correct. to use NOS now your better of with no CAP Skills and we cant untrain them :/ as to nos someone to close to 0% without using Neuts you need to kill your cap so a new player with no cap skills will make better use of the nos. Also i would like to point out that what i find anoying is that some people seem to think that this will benifit amarr the most because of their high cap dependent ships,, well as everyone moves from nos to neut/capbooster setups guess what race has the least mid slots for capbooster mod's and the smallest cargo bays for boosters :S
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.04 15:05:00 - [1325] Originally by: Aramendel [ Originally by: Shadowsword The Nano-Curse won't be a solopwn machine anymore, but a standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets Small (like less than 5 people total small), yes. And it won't be more useful than the other recons there. Anything above, not really. In medium+ gangs ships die before their cap fails even with a curse neuting them, so that ability is pretty pointless there. Webs, damps, increased scramrange and ECM will still be very useful. Yes, a curse has also TDs but those do not make up for the abilites of the other recons. And in fleets it is utterly pointless. You cannot use TDs as counter to snipers. With maxxed EW range skills they have an optimal of 60k and a falloff of 36k. This means you have a 50% failure rate for them at 96k and a 94% failure rate for them at 132k. Basically the curse will be Ok for small gangs and worse than the other recons for medium - large gangs and utterly pointless in fleets. What makes up for these disadvantages? The curse will not be useless, mind you, but it WILL be a good deal weaker on average than the other recons. I didn't say the Curse was fine with nos nerfed, but that there was a steep difference between subpar, and useless. To say the Curse is useless would be like saying the Arbitrator is, and it's one of the best cruisers around. However, you're right to point out that a Curse without nos/neut would be subpar, compared to other force recons. But I think you're underestimating it in a fleet support role: First, a fleet isn't only interceptors and sniping battleships, there's also a lot of HAS, command ships etc going in close. Second, you can easily, with a 1600mm plate, 2 EANM II and gang bonuses, get to 10k armor with 65-70% minimal resists. That's nothing to sneeze at. Third, there's always rigs for ECM optimal range, and you can go closer to the enemy, even if it's very risky. But with 10k armor, you should have time to warp out, if need be, and if not, then the enemy will have spend on you almost as much time than on a BS, and one lost Curse would cost your side less than one lost T2 fitted BS. Then, how about this? The Curse lose it's nos/neut bonuses, get a fifth launcher and a Rof or Em bonus, or a 5% resists or 10% armor HP, and a 20% bonus to tracking disruptor optimal. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 15:48:00 - [1326] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 15:53:15 Originally by: Shadowsword But I think you're underestimating it in a fleet support role: First, a fleet isn't only interceptors and sniping battleships, there's also a lot of HAS, command ships etc going in close. HACs will be in sniping mode, too. And I have barely seen any command ships in fleet battle outside in sitting at the POS and running gang link modules. Quote: Second, you can easily, with a 1600mm plate, 2 EANM II and gang bonuses, get to 10k armor with 65-70% minimal resists. That's nothing to sneeze at. 8000 if you have an armor mindlink pilot as gang boost. And you can fit a lachesis just the same with identical average resistances. Quote: Third, there's always rigs for ECM optimal range, and you can go closer to the enemy, even if it's very risky. Do the numbers before suggesting something which does not work. With 2 EW range rigs TDs still have only a 10% chance for a TD to work at 150k. To compare: a lachesis with 2 EW range rigs has a 52% chance for a damp to work at 150k and will damp a 220k lock range 2 sensorbooster mega down to 65k. Hell, the amarr recon will be better with damps, same chance for them to work, the mega will just be "only" damped to 86k instead 65k. Of cource, then you will not use a single shipbonus of the curse and might just as well use any other ship with 6 medium slots. The "go closer" shouldn't really be worth an answer. A slow as hell ship due to an 1600mm plate which will have with the MWD the sig of a small moon presenting a juicy single isolated target..yes, that will work very well. Quote: Then, how about this? The Curse lose it's nos/neut bonuses, get a fifth launcher and a Rof or Em bonus, or a 5% resists or 10% armor HP, and a 20% bonus to tracking disruptor optimal. So instead making it an average solo & small gang, suppar medium-large gang and useless fleet recon you want to make it a useless solo & small gang, suppar medium-large gang and average fleet recon?
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.08.04 15:54:00 - [1327] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/08/2007 15:57:32 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 13:59:15 Originally by: Shadowsword The Nano-Curse won't be a solopwn machine anymore, but a standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets Small (like less than 5 people total small), yes. And it won't be more useful than the other recons there. Ding! Correct, the curse is now balanced with the other recons. Change ++. In larger actions, wow, you might need to use it in a different role to that which is is currently employed. //Maya
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 15:57:00 - [1328] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 16:03:26 Originally by: Maya Rkell Ding! Correct, the curse is now balanced with the other recons. Change ++ Server rollback. Try reading the whole post. Right now it is better solo, about equal in small gangs and worse in med gangs-fleets. Higher solo performance balanced worse group performance. After the patch it is worse-equal solo, equal in small gangs and still worse in everything above. Originally by: Maya Rkell In larger actions, wow, you might need to use it in a different role to that which is is currently employed. There is none which is not better filled by other recons. Anti-tackler? Huggin webs, lachesis damps below 10k. Disabeling enemy ships with EW? Rook and lachesis are far more efficient in that. So what is the magical "different role"? As DPSer?
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:04:00 - [1329] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/08/2007 16:05:13 "Higher solo performance balanced worse group performance." That's not balance, it's a specalisation. Big difference. Anyway, the Curse is deverstating in groups when properly combined with other ships, and it's going to remain so. You have BOTH midslots and highslots. You may wish to consider this. That before your highslots and drones did everything..yea. //Maya
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:28:00 - [1330] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 16:31:32 Originally by: Maya Rkell That's not balance, it's a specalisation. Big difference. And it pays for this specialisation by being worse in other areas. How is that not balanced? Quote: Anyway, the Curse is deverstating in groups when properly combined with other ships, and it's going to remain so. You have BOTH midslots and highslots. You may wish to consider this. That before your highslots and drones did everything..yea. In a small group, yes. In a medium and bigger group however, no, because targets die before they run out of cap. Capwarefare is simply not useful then. If you think it can be made equally effective as the other recons there say how, otherwise all you are saying "it is so because I say so" which is nothing but hot air. Both the huginn and the lachesis deal around 100 more dps than the curse with drones, so even if it uses 4 missile launchers it will still at best only deal equal dps. The only thing which remains is its EW, and if you think TDs are equally useful to 40k webs or damps and 40k scrams or high efficiency ECM from 100k+ you probably have never used those modules.

Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:33:00 - [1331] You're arguing that a ship can destroy any frigate in 1 second but cannot harm cruisers and battleships is balanced? Again, that's specalisation and not balance. "targets die before they run out of cap" Heh. And here we start to hit the issue. This is somewhat true. So in that situation, why are you killing the cap of the fire target? Kill the cap of the enemy frigates, swipe the cap of that supporting HAC. You can lock multiple ships, ffs. You're saying "I can only think of one tactic". Well, tough. Just becsuse you can't be creative dosn't mean I have your limits. //Maya
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:43:00 - [1332] Edited by: Grytok on 04/08/2007 16:47:11 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 12:38:41 Originally by: Grytok When will this Amarr-Recon-Whining stop? When people who have no experience with those ships stop posting that they are "not hurt in the slightest". Quote: This patch will hurt the Curse not the slightest. After the Patch I'll still destroy 1000 Cap in one cycle (6 seconds) with 3x Med Neuts fitted, spending around 250 Cap myself. Every Frig, Cruiser or Battlecruiser will still instantly die to that. Neut cycle is twice as long as a nos cylce. Medium neuts have a 12 sec ROF. And BCs have over 3000 cap. And you will spend 340 cap (with unstable neuts and max skills), not "around 250 cap". Are you proposing an extra -25% capuse bonus for neuts on the curse? Neuts are in the discussion of getting their Cycletime lowered to NOS-cycle, and even if not, you'll still destroy 1000 Cap with one shot = dead Frig or Cruiser instantly. When I do outfit my soon to be flying Curse - yes I'm training Amarr Cruiser LvL 5 atm - then a Med Unstable will have 88.xx activation cost and destroys 324 Cap. Hint: Rigs! With 800 CapCharges I can run the 3 Neuts long enough, to kill any Cap up to BS, because they'll not get in Range to do me any harm. Damps ftw Topspeed is around 3000m/sec So please... stop complaining now. EDIT: I do fly an Arazu with skills @ LvL 4/5 and I can do **** solo, so don't tell me again, how uber the other Recons are. Curse does 200 DPS with only the Med T2 Drones, Arazu does even lower DPS (3x 200mm + 4 Med T2) and isn't able to kill the targets tank. .
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:43:00 - [1333] Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 04/08/2007 01:37:45 Yes I actually do. But neuts suck hard (please don't make me explain how they suck more) and people will always go for whats better because people like to win. So nos > neuts. Also, I'd like to point out in a previous post I classed neuts as nos to make things easier and some guy tried to flame me, though he failed horribly. Thats the problem NOS>NEUT... its not balanced. And thi sway of changing NOS will not make NEUT>NOS or NOS>NEUT anymore. And also in the last posts i tried to prove the NEUTs wasnt useless... its just they are useless in the shadow of NOS wich make ppl use NOS only. This is imbalanced and makes the game less of a sandbox game. Its harder to think outside of the box if one module so clearly outclasses its cousins. Its the balance here we are looking for as one of th meajor points, CCP stated that in the last post they made even. Originally by: speedcat Shortened speedcats 2 posts for easier reading, refer to them here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566234&page=46#1357 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566234&page=46#1358 First i cant even fly a crow, and these changes doesnt make BS unable to defend against them with cap warfare. Small ships have it harder now to NOS big ships for sustaining itself? Well from case to case thats sometimes true, sometimes not. Depends on what you fight really and how your fighting yourself. And even if its harder for small to NOS big its also impossible for BIG to kill your CAP with NOS, theyll have to fit NEUTS wich means you can fit a NOS to effectively defend somewhat against it. I also stated in my point 6 that you quoted that please think outside of the domi and yet you claim i only talk about the domi? o_0 There is an unfair advantage for NOS vs NEUTs. This is a FACT. There are more problems with nos then their powerful use on droneboats... Althou the droneboat problem will be adjusted here to. And i have read many other changes that make sense and solves some NOS problem. But as CCP stated this change is the ONLY option solving ALL the problems at the same time. The problems they wanted fixed are listed in their posts a few pages back. >> I'm engaging the Domi with a stabber or an assault frig or whatever... at the moment I decide to use one slot for a NOS, deciding to not fit a Cap Booster, it seriously helps me maintaining my Cap against the BIG Domi and is an insurance if I keep at distance that I not get drained, i'll getting managed to tackle this Battleship and I'm tanking his low damage because of my low signature. I'm happy, maybe I also have some E-War drones or ECM or something like that to hold him. Mooooeeep... not possible after the patch... because of my low damage that I do to the Battleship, the Battleship don't have to tank and because he don't used his Cap, I cannot use my NOS... it's worthless. I think you really misunderstand how the new NOS will work if thats your view on it. You can still use your NOS if your opponent is using his hell have higher %Cap then you, hence you can use that nos to hold up your modules just like before. Difference is the DOMI wont be fitted with NOS anymore and you Can NOS him to your hearths content, just watch out becouse the domi might use other systems like guns/neuts... you have to guess now becouse the NOS isnt the all be for the DOMI anymore... Perhaps he still has some NOS and GUNS to fight against BS or using a NEUT setup for CAPwarfare... NOS in ITSELF is a problem... And shows the MOST clear on ships that stack them wich is mostely DroneBoats. And im not saying this change doesnt have possible troubles with it, all changes do. Im here arguing that this change is very good and providing why with examples and such. Not just "OMGADEPT". The point your making about small/medium NOS taking a to heavy hit looks like a valid concern thou. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:51:00 - [1334] Originally by: IPyric yep your correct. to use NOS now your better of with no CAP Skills and we cant untrain them :/ as to nos someone to close to 0% without using Neuts you need to kill your cap so a new player with no cap skills will make better use of the nos. Also i would like to point out that what i find anoying is that some people seem to think that this will benifit amarr the most because of their high cap dependent ships,, well as everyone moves from nos to neut/capbooster setups guess what race has the least mid slots for capbooster mod's and the smallest cargo bays for boosters :S Well isnt this better then what noobs could do with NOS today? This nerfs noobs just marginally less then older players. Also amarr have smallest cargo and lowest midslot, But guss who have more powergrid BY FAR and more more CAP and better recharge then other ships? Guess what ships _cant_ fit full racks of NEUTS and gues wich ships that _can_ in the first place. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Mark Hamill Galactic Waste Management	Posted - 2007.08.04 16:54:00 - [1335] Dear CCP, Everone seems to agree that a. NOS in general is overpowered. b. Most seem to realize that no matter how you look at it, this nerf will hit Amarr pilots from both sides by 1. Changing the way Amarr recons work (and not for the better). 2. Drastically changing the way 8 Amarr ships funcion. Your solution is to hire a psychologist (and I'm being serious, not sarcastic). It's apparent none of you have even a basic understanding of child, much less adult psychology. Allow me to enlighten you. I personally dislike all of these changes, and not just because they nerf half my fleet or the changes are unworkable or unadaptable. I oppose them because I am a 42 year old Amarr child and I expect you to treat me as such. You are taking and you are not giving and just like a child, I don't like having my toys taken away from me. If you so much as pick up that nerf bat and look at it... I'm going to get defensive. The nerf bat implies that you're about to take something away from me. Regardless of how insignificant you may assume that thing is, I have it now and you don't want me to have it which makes it very significant. Everything I have in the game now, I've spent over a year trying to achieve. If you take one thing from me, you trivialize the time and money I've spent trying to achieve it. If you take away my toys and tell me I now have to go sit in the corner and learn how to use them again, I'm going to get angry. I have them now and I don't want to have to wait to use them again. I don't want you to change my toys for what you think is the better. Like a child who becomes accustomed to a certain worn-out stuffed animal, I have adapted to my Khanid ships and rather than you take them away from me for whatever length of time to fix them, I'd rather have them just as they are. I have adapted to my nosferatus and whether you think I'll end up hurting someone with them or not, I have them, they're mine. I don't tend to play with them as much as some other pilots because only 2 of my ships get bonuses for them and they're limited in the targets they can take on (For those of you who think Amarr recons are a WTFPWNMOBILE, I suggest you fly one then say that.). However, I do play with them on some ships and if you change them, I'm going to get mad. If you take them away, I'm going to get even more angry. You keep taking, taking, taking.... However, if you were to give me new toys to play with, I'd be quite happy. Even if you didn't just hand me the toy but told me I COULD get it if I spent a little time, I'd then be elated. I'd sit and look at all the things I don't have that you say I can and wish I did and I'd scheme and plot as to how I'm going to get them. You'd be giving me goals to achieve rather than punishing me by taking things away. And just like a rat who's trying to wind his way through a maze, I'm more likely to accept your changes if you lead me down the path with some cheese rather than thump me in the head and put me back at the beginning when I go the wrong way. Consider why you have all of these irate posts. Consider why all this flaming back and forth is occurring. You're taking and not giving. I just read the dev blog on the new capital industrial on Sisi and I'm going to bet you're not going to get any flaming over that! You're giving new toys and new goals to achieve (HAM's are not new). I strongly suggest that if you want to appease both those that agree with and those that oppose these changes and not lose any subscribers that you sit back down at your round table, look at some of these players suggestions and start thinking of ways you can GIVE the playerbase something that will balance nosses and Khanid ships rather than taking things away. Because if these changes do go through, I might just throw a 42 year old temper tantrum and TAKE my credit card away from YOU. -Sincerely, -Wet Diaper (and no, nobody can have my toys, they're MINE, MINE, MINE)
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:03:00 - [1336] Well... trying to persuade yourself isn't a good thing. I learned curse very good. Another idea: a person, who has bad skills, i.e. energy menegment, control burst an so on can use nosf better, then a person who has all 5 in this skills. Interestinf indeed. A noob, who didn't learn control burst use more capacitor with one shoot, but now he can compensate his bad skills with nosf. Great idea, i should say... now noobs got stronger. I have the same question: why insta damage to armor/shield/hull, insta damage to speead (web), insta damage to tracking (weapon distruption), an many many others is ok, but insta drain is bad??? Why should i fit module, that requir thinking of enemy capacitor? I will complain! It the strangest idea i ever see in EVE. I'm ok with signuter, with seperating distance to optimal faloff, eve with the nosf that can't work when you have simply MORE (not in persents) capacitor than target. But persents!!! I can't drain any battleship on curse! When he has 1000 capactitor and its 25% pn BS and i have 300 capacitor and it's a 28+ percents for curse ! I find this strange. Recons is a headeache to any ship, but curse woun't be if nosf will be nerfed. CCP, think of my words. There are many players who are thinking just as i do. Only those, who don't want to fint counter messure to nosf are glad. By the way neut will not br of any use on amars and galente ships. We can't allow oureselfs to lost so many grid and cpu questionable opportunity to lose 155 capacitor when enemy losses 180.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:09:00 - [1337] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 17:09:42 Originally by: Mark Hamill Dear CCP, (and no, nobody can have my toys, they're MINE, MINE, MINE) Great words! SIGNED
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:20:00 - [1338] Originally by: Fager The point your making about small/medium NOS taking a to heavy hit looks like a valid concern thou. Yes, ooh thank god you understand me. And that's my only problem with this patch. Yes I accept NOS-Changes in general, yes I see the point with NOS vs. Neuts and the different usage, but... I see other solutions that will work better (CCP checklist approved or not) which in my opinion don't destroy the usage of Medium or Small NOS like the patch from CCP. I want to fight against a Battleship in a smaller ship than a battleship and I want to NOS him... not to destroy his Cap, no, I want to maintain my own Cap without Neutralizing myself to death. And the problem of this thread is, that we have more than one critic. 1.) NOS & the Curse / Pilgrim 2.) NOS in general !!! (Small, Med, Large, fittings with one NOS, two NOS) 3.) Khanid-Problematic Thx for understanding my issue... I get angry if I see all those postings not getting the point of this. Not every one flies a Curse/Pilgrim/NOS-Domi... and those people won't to fit a neutralizer instead of NOS because they liked it the way it was and didn't misused 5 highslots for 5 NOS to drain the enemy without a loss. For this people the NOS (Small, Med) is a part if their Fitting-Calculations to maintain a tank long enough to fight against a enemy which is stronger by default. With this NOS-Nerf you destroy also Ships and Fittings which are not mentioned here in all those postings. PRO: "1 or 2 Slot NOS-Users" -Guild ^^ ANTI: "ENEMY-Cap-Neut with no loss" -Guild ^^ Originally by: Mark Hamill Dear CCP, Everone seems to agree that a. NOS in general is overpowered. b. Most seem to realize that no matter how you look at it, this nerf will hit Amarr pilots from both sides by 1. Changing the way Amarr recons work (and not for the better). 2. Drastically changing the way 8 Amarr ships funcion. Your solution is to hire a psychologist (and I'm being serious, not sarcastic). It's apparent none of you have even a basic understanding of child, much less adult psychology. Allow me to enlighten you... Haha... Mark Hamill as I know him. Quite good post, thank you mate. br, speed
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:23:00 - [1339] I personally dislike all of these changes, and not just because they nerf half my fleet or the changes are unworkable or unadaptable. I oppose them because I am a 42 year old Amarr child and I expect you to treat me as such. You are taking and you are not giving and just like a child, I don't like having my toys taken away from me. Most see these changes as a Boost to amarr overall. Cap being safer in space, Amarr having advantage in the new CAPwarfare, NOS Saving Amarr ships more often then others and so on... All these points has been repeated over and over again. The changes boost the amarr fleet and ppl have already started adapting and working around it thinking outside of the box. But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, atleast some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation. Its true that some amarr ships are nerfed also like Curse and Pilgrim. But as even the most FOTM ppl admits the Curse was a soloPWNmobile. Its also true what ppl say that the new curse could have deserved a better fate. Also the pilgrim ofcourse. There are also ppl stating that with some modification and some new mods in the loop the curse are still a VERY deadly 1on1 foe. I myself cannot say how useful the curse is after the patch couse i cant fly it, but im trying to ignore the namecallers and read some fact from ppl saying it cant 1on1 fight anymore and from ppl giving new example how they still are dangerous even to BS. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:30:00 - [1340] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 17:33:17 Originally by: Maya Rkell You're arguing that a ship can destroy any frigate in 1 second but cannot harm cruisers and battleships is balanced? Again, that's specalisation and not balance. A hugin can get nearly the same tank and dps as a vagabond. If you think it can only really kill frigates you either have no experience with that ship or are flat out lying. Quote: Heh. And here we start to hit the issue. This is somewhat true. So in that situation, why are you killing the cap of the fire target? Kill the cap of the enemy frigates, swipe the cap of that supporting HAC. You can lock multiple ships, ffs. The point you miss is that other recons can do that better. A huginn will disable frigs faster. A rook can permajam HACs and frigs with one module. Quote: You're saying "I can only think of one tactic". Well, tough. Just becsuse you can't be creative dosn't mean I have your limits. No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs where it is EQUALLY effective as the other recons. It has a disadvantage vs the other recons vs med+ gangs. It is not useless there, but it is less effective than its alternatives. What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing. Now it is plain out less effective on average than the other recons. --------------------- Originally by: Grytok Neuts are in the discussion of getting their Cycletime lowered to NOS-cycle, ...and in exchange their strength decreased. Their cap destroyed/sec will stay the same. Quote: and even if not, you'll still destroy 1000 Cap with one shot = dead Frig or Cruiser instantly. And a curse which will be out of cap soon too. Unless it fits a cap booster...ohh..guess what other ships can fit too. And a huginn is better vs frigs. ECM recons can permajam cruisers with a single module. Hell, a t1 BC is a better anti-cruiser ship. A curses strength was countering bigger ships, vs cruisers and frigs it is one of the less effective counters. Quote: When I do outfit my soon to be flying Curse - yes I'm training Amarr Cruiser LvL 5 atm - then a Med Unstable will have 88.xx activation cost and destroys 324 Cap. Hint: Rigs! Hint: rigs are not free. All recons can boost their power with rigs. Quote: EDIT: I do fly an Arazu with skills @ LvL 4/5 and I can do **** solo, so don't tell me again, how uber the other Recons are. Curse does 200 DPS with only the Med T2 Drones, Arazu does even lower DPS (3x 200mm + 4 Med T2) and isn't able to kill the targets tank. I commented this already with you ignoring it so I fear you are into denial here, but let me try one last time: You are comparing a FORCE recon vs a COMBAT recon. You might just as well compare a claymore vs an absolution and whine "Why do I not do more dps???". A lachesis does 330 dps with t1 ammo. Also, a lachesis is far more useful than a curse in med-large gangs. I am sure neuting that BSs cap in 40 seconds will be increadibly useful when it dies in 30. Better in med-large gangs, worse solo. Better solo, worse in med-large gangs.. I think we are getting close to something....

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:33:00 - [1341] Originally by: speedcat Originally by: Fager The point your making about small/medium NOS taking a to heavy hit looks like a valid concern thou. Yes, ooh thank god you understand me. And that's my only problem with this patch. Yes I accept NOS-Changes in general, yes I see the point with NOS vs. Neuts and the different usage, but... I see other solutions that will work better (CCP checklist approved or not) which in my opinion don't destroy the usage of Medium or Small NOS like the patch from CCP. I want to fight against a Battleship in a smaller ship than a battleship and I want to NOS him... not to destroy his Cap, no, I want to maintain my own Cap without Neutralizing myself to death. And the problem of this thread is, that we have more than one critic. 1.) NOS & the Curse / Pilgrim 2.) NOS in general !!! (Small, Med, Large, fittings with one NOS, two NOS) 3.) Khanid-Problematic Thx for understanding my issue... I get angry if I see all those postings not getting the point of this. Not every one flies a Curse/Pilgrim/NOS-Domi... and those people won't to fit a neutralizer instead of NOS because they liked it the way it was and didn't misused 5 highslots for 5 NOS to drain the enemy without a loss. For this people the NOS (Small, Med) is a part if their Fitting-Calculations to maintain a tank long enough to fight against a enemy which is stronger by default. With this NOS-Nerf you destroy also Ships and Fittings which are not mentioned here in all those postings. PRO: "1 or 2 Slot NOS-Users" -Guild ^^ ANTI: "ENEMY-Cap-Neut with no loss" -Guild ^^ But With less Heavy NOS in the air, and its effectiveness reduced against your little ship and less ships using racks of NEUTs couse of the different and harder fitting issues and more drawbacks. Dont you think your smaller ships are boosted in itself. Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. When it works against bigger ship it will work at 100% also (1lower frig vs BS can drain at full power for a long time, 1%lower BS vs Frig can drain what? 2cap). Also since a small ship will have very less NOS to worry about in space he can easier get close. Smaller NOS can keep your cap up even when faced with NEUTs. Its true what your saying, small and medium NOS wont work 100% just like the Heavy. However there where some medium NOS dron ships also. And even if the smaller ships takes a nerf they also became mush more useful against larger versions of itself. Its not all bad i believe ;) thoughts? "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:35:00 - [1342] Hmmm. Interesting changes The NOS nerf is not so bad, only problem is that nerfs the curse/pilgrim (one of the good ships of amarr) The khanid boost is good too, but there is a small problem again: Why rocket/ham bonuses? why not rocket/light and hm/ham bonus? so the ships would be usefull
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:43:00 - [1343] Originally by: Aramendel It has a disadvantage vs the other recons vs med+ gangs. It is not useless there, but it is less effective than its alternatives. What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing. Now it is plain out less effective on average than the other recons. Would be nice if you backed up with examples of how other reconns can solo better. I mean there are suggestions and builds using for example Capacitor Boosters to effectively kill Even BS sized ships solo with Curse, dunno about Pilgrim. I dont believe many other reconns got the power kill BSes, but prove me wrong. Just would be nice with some constructive arguments explaining why you think other reconns do the job as good or better. That way other experienced reconn fighters can add or disaprove of your logic. Im not saying your wrong, just give some examples, not everyone are as good as reconns and can simply out your comment of as a "noob-comment". As it stands imo is that amarr reconns are taking a hit undeniable. But ppl saying its still alot better then other reconns soloing gives examples how it can still be 1on1 boat. I also agree with you that CAPwarfare is for smaller battles, and TD is subpar in Big fights and even medium fights. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.04 17:56:00 - [1344] Edited by: Wyliee on 04/08/2007 17:55:59 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=568837&page=1 this is worth reading.....
Mark Hamill Galactic Waste Management	Posted - 2007.08.04 18:17:00 - [1345] Originally by: Fager I personally dislike all of these changes, and not just because they nerf half my fleet or the changes are unworkable or unadaptable. I oppose them because I am a 42 year old Amarr child and I expect you to treat me as such. You are taking and you are not giving and just like a child, I don't like having my toys taken away from me. Most see these changes as a Boost to amarr overall. Cap being safer in space, Amarr having advantage in the new CAPwarfare, NOS Saving Amarr ships more often then others and so on... All these points has been repeated over and over again. The changes boost the amarr fleet and ppl have already started adapting and working around it thinking outside of the box. But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, atleast some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation. Its true that some amarr ships are nerfed also like Curse and Pilgrim. But as even the most FOTM ppl admits the Curse was a soloPWNmobile. Its also true what ppl say that the new curse could have deserved a better fate. Also the pilgrim ofcourse. There are also ppl stating that with some modification and some new mods in the loop the curse are still a VERY deadly 1on1 foe. I myself cannot say how useful the curse is after the patch couse i cant fly it, but im trying to ignore the namecallers and read some fact from ppl saying it cant 1on1 fight anymore and from ppl giving new example how they still are dangerous even to BS. I suggest you look at my quote that you so eagerly pulled and didn't bother to read. It's not a case of if I can adapt or even if these changes to end up being a benefit to Amarr. It's about CCP TAKING things away in order to achieve a goal instead of giving. Anytime you TAKE away features, you'll **** people off. Anytime you add features you'll make people happy. The Khanid changes are merely shuffling around features which ends up being taking. And as for the Curse/Pilgrim, I can read people's opinions just as well as you can. Until you fly one and you try to take on that Myrmidon or that Gallante HAC or a Domi with 5 heavy drones or even a ship with 5 medium drones... or that Caldari that just ignores your drones and nos and tosses missles at you which you have no defense against, don't tell me what a solowtfpwnmobile it is. I know, I fly both. Some thing's it's very good at. Some things, it's very bad at. And that's good balance in my opinion.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 18:31:00 - [1346] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Aramendel It has a disadvantage vs the other recons vs med+ gangs. It is not useless there, but it is less effective than its alternatives. What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing. Now it is plain out less effective on average than the other recons. Would be nice if you backed up with examples of how other reconns can solo better. I mean there are suggestions and builds using for example Capacitor Boosters to effectively kill Even BS sized ships solo with Curse, dunno about Pilgrim. Where did I say there that other recons solo better? "Less effective on average than the other recons." does not mean that, it means literary that for the whole spectrum of solo, small gang, med gang, large gang, fleet taken together other recons have a better average performance. People constantly use seldgehammer arguments a la "other recons cannot solo either" and ignore that those are better in group support. The curse either needs its solo power to be balanced or needs a buff for its group power. Quote: I dont believe many other reconns got the power kill BSes, but prove me wrong. Just would be nice with some constructive arguments explaining why you think other reconns do the job as good or better. That way other experienced reconn fighters can add or disaprove of your logic. An injected neut curse will still be halfway able to do kill a BS (while being rather fragile). Other recons are not that bad at that either, though - lachesis and huginns do not have the nos of the curse, but they have in exchange almost 50% more dps. Another thing which has to be taken into account here is that killing a ratting BS in a belt (if you can catch it before it cloaks or logs) is not all of 1v1. A curse is rather useless for gate combat since it has no way of stopping enemies from getting back to the gate. A huginn is perfect there, and killing haulers or frigs which try to make a run for empire with valuable cargo is quite often more profitable and does more damage than trying to kill ratters. In "real" PvP 1v1 targets have quite often also a cap injector which will give a curse significant problems, mainly because it cannot "see" what the cap of its target is, which makes it easy to waste charges. Another thing which has been ignored or just mentioned as a sidenote is the pilgrim. The curse can live through the change. It will be weaker, possibly too wek, but it will not be something for the recycle bin. The pilgrim however..its problem is its range. It has no rangebonus so its 12k or closer to him, which is web distance (it could technically try to hover at 10-12k, but it is not very efficient and an overloaded web will still get him. It cannot disable all enemy dps like the other recons at this range, so it needs to tank. For which it was dependant on its target cap. It cannot maintain neuts and tank with an injector - and nevermind that it also has only 5 med slots. Scram, propulsion, web, injector..yay for 1 slot for a single TD. It will be able to kill cruisers 1v1, but that is now something the other recons really can do better.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 18:41:00 - [1347] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25 Quote: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him. He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor. 3 ideas: 1) 1 nosf works better than 2+ 2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you 3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good. Strange mechanic. Really Strange Hands of my toyes!
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:12:00 - [1348] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Fager Would be nice if you backed up with examples of how other reconns can solo better. I mean there are suggestions and builds using for example Capacitor Boosters to effectively kill Even BS sized ships solo with Curse, dunno about Pilgrim. Where did I say there that other recons solo better? "Less effective on average than the other recons." does not mean that, it means literary that for the whole spectrum of solo, small gang, med gang, large gang, fleet taken together other recons have a better average performance. People constantly use seldgehammer arguments a la "other recons cannot solo either" and ignore that those are better in group support. The curse either needs its solo power to be balanced or needs a buff for its group power. Quote: I dont believe many other reconns got the power kill BSes, but prove me wrong. Just would be nice with some constructive arguments explaining why you think other reconns do the job as good or better. That way other experienced reconn fighters can add or disaprove of your logic. An injected neut curse will still be halfway able to do kill a BS (while being rather fragile). Other recons are not that bad at that either, though - lachesis and huginns do not have the nos of the curse, but they have in exchange almost 50% more dps. Another thing which has to be taken into account here is that killing a ratting BS in a belt (if you can catch it before it cloaks or logs) is not all of 1v1. A curse is rather useless for gate combat since it has no way of stopping enemies from getting back to the gate. A huginn is perfect there, and killing haulers or frigs which try to make a run for empire with valuable cargo is quite often more profitable and does more damage than trying to kill ratters. In "real" PvP 1v1 targets have quite often also a cap injector which will give a curse significant problems, mainly because it cannot "see" what the cap of its target is, which makes it easy to waste charges. Another thing which has been ignored or just mentioned as a sidenote is the pilgrim. The curse can live through the change. It will be weaker, possibly too wek, but it will not be something for the recycle bin. The pilgrim however..its problem is its range. It has no rangebonus so its 12k or closer to him, which is web distance (it could technically try to hover at 10-12k, but it is not very efficient and an overloaded web will still get him. It cannot disable all enemy dps like the other recons at this range, so it needs to tank. For which it was dependant on its target cap. It cannot maintain neuts and tank with an injector - and nevermind that it also has only 5 med slots. Scram, propulsion, web, injector..yay for 1 slot for a single TD. It will be able to kill cruisers 1v1, but that is now something the other recons really can do better. Im sorry i worded that wrong, meant to say explin how other recons can kill similar to or better then Curse. Wasnt trying to sledgehammer you mate, sorry. A Curse using a 800 can waste more then 800 from his enemie using 800. Gives advantage in Cap war witch it fights and also not all enemies uses 800 and when they dont you got even more advantage. And with the general use of NOS less ppl would i suspect use 800s as many use them as the only means to fight NOS in closerange. However you bring many other valid points and construct them with godo instead of "Curse is DEAD i mquitting my 25 accounts CCP". I would also like to bring another thing to the table. Cant you use a Curse to efficently kill of a ships cap and targeting in fleet? Kinda like a damper can kill its locking abilities? I mean just couse primary dies wihtout wasting all its cap doesnt mean you cant drain other ships like say.. Blasterboats or stop speeders. I dunno about the pilgrim thou.. does sounds like it could use range instead of power. Also TDs+drain gotta be good in bigger fights to. Atleast not as bad as ppl say? "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:21:00 - [1349] Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36 Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25 Quote: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him. He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor. 3 ideas: 1) 1 nosf works better than 2+ 2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you 3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good. Strange mechanic. Really Strange Hands of my toies! I agree with u. is a crazy change that a noob would be able to use same effective or even more effective the nos on a non bonused ship, like a 15m sp pilot with maxed energy skills in a curse or pilgrim(bonused ship). I think this nos change is very very unlucky in the form as it is. Sure the skilled pilot can use neuts, but with this change the nosbonus is useless :( Again a not correct change from Dev's. Here on forums was lot of good idees for noschange and from all this idees take the worst possible :( I hope this change would never activated on TQ
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:26:00 - [1350] Originally by: Mark Hamill Originally by: Fager I personally dislike all of these changes, and not just because they nerf half my fleet or the changes are unworkable or unadaptable. I oppose them because I am a 42 year old Amarr child and I expect you to treat me as such. You are taking and you are not giving and just like a child, I don't like having my toys taken away from me. Most see these changes as a Boost to amarr overall. Cap being safer in space, Amarr having advantage in the new CAPwarfare, NOS Saving Amarr ships more often then others and so on... All these points has been repeated over and over again. The changes boost the amarr fleet and ppl have already started adapting and working around it thinking outside of the box. But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, atleast some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation. Its true that some amarr ships are nerfed also like Curse and Pilgrim. But as even the most FOTM ppl admits the Curse was a soloPWNmobile. Its also true what ppl say that the new curse could have deserved a better fate. Also the pilgrim ofcourse. There are also ppl stating that with some modification and some new mods in the loop the curse are still a VERY deadly 1on1 foe. I myself cannot say how useful the curse is after the patch couse i cant fly it, but im trying to ignore the namecallers and read some fact from ppl saying it cant 1on1 fight anymore and from ppl giving new example how they still are dangerous even to BS. I suggest you look at my quote that you so eagerly pulled and didn't bother to read. It's not a case of if I can adapt or even if these changes to end up being a benefit to Amarr. It's about CCP TAKING things away in order to achieve a goal instead of giving. Anytime you TAKE away features, you'll **** people off. Anytime you add features you'll make people happy. The Khanid changes are merely shuffling around features which ends up being taking. And as for the Curse/Pilgrim, I can read people's opinions just as well as you can. Until you fly one and you try to take on that Myrmidon or that Gallante HAC or a Domi with 5 heavy drones or even a ship with 5 medium drones... or that Caldari that just ignores your drones and nos and tosses missles at you which you have no defense against, don't tell me what a solowtfpwnmobile it is. I know, I fly both. Some thing's it's very good at. Some things, it's very bad at. And that's good balance in my opinion. Kinda like its better to Boost then to Nerf, i agree its more fun to see new toys boosted then others nerfed or changed. But many amarr have not like you complained about the uselessnest of the khanid ships, and hence CCP is changing them. I think you need to be mad at Amarr crowd who wanted em changed. Its not like CCP could just add another 6-8 ships to amarr... Its a touchy subject but the big Amarr crowd (dont care if you call your brothers whiners or not) asked for a change, CCP responded knowing that most ppl complained about the crappy split wpn systems sucked (just like on the caldari Gun boats) they probably focused on making it specialized. They choosed Missies+Armor over Shield+Lasers. No matter what theyd choose theyd get the same complains that TOYs where taken away, Amarr dont train other thing then armor+lazers and so on. I would probaly also be a ticked of if i flew a missile Eagle and all my missies on it got taken away for another turret slot. But the big crowd would probably like it. About the curse/pilgrim, your bringing some good points for it. Instead of saying ITS DEAD YOU ALL SUCK!! I appaloud that and the more i read from these more constructive posts defending the curse i believe its taken a heavy beating. This is the stuff that CCP needs to be reading isntead of whines in capital letters. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:35:00 - [1351] Originally by: William DeMeo Sorry for failing at sarcam But you fail at logic. You have, in your thread made my point. Let me show you: Quote: Yes we all know there is stuff called EW and it can be used to disable ships Quote: Im not disputing that there are setups to specifically counter nos, but those setups will have huge drawbacks for fighting normal shipsetups. of course a dampening ship would never be able to kill any other closerange battleship that can't target them. Infact I'm as sure about that as I'm sure a heavy dps ship would never be able to kill any other ship then a nosdomi because against other ships they have huge drawbacks If you rip my post apart atleast have the decency to quote whole sentences. The part about EW countering setups was mentioned in conjunction with a imaginery module destroying ships, to show that just cause something is counterable it doesnt mean its automatically balanced. Since when is a damp or a dps setup a part of setups to specifically counter nos? My whole point is that damps and other ew modules or high damage ships dont counter nos, but every single offensive module apart from fof and smartys, hardly a specific counter is it? Originally by: William DeMeo Concerning the midslots of a domi; five midslots: 1x warp disruptor 1x 100mn microwarpdrive 3 damps. The insane nossing power of the nosdomi's two heavy nos's can permarun the mwd and thus keep their range, even though all gunships fit mwd's AND webs (something you will not have with this setup). After that you will fit cap boosters and your OMG INSANE tank and your top speed will be at 800m/s. If you're lucky you can take a battleship down to under 20km with three damps, no way if he's got a sensor booster. Assuming you can actually keep your range vs. the hostile you'd still have the problem of your drones getting raped. Webbed heavy drones = slow as hell sentry drones = slow as hell Domi with dead drones = TEH IMBA UNKILLABLE SHIP WITH NO COUNTERZ Get a clue, I hope you're an alt because 2006.12 highsec missionrunners I fear don't know so much about the game or it's balance. Ah getting down to insults, if it soothes your mind, yes this is a alt cause my alliance has a policy about bull**ting on forums, using a alt i dont have to worry about insulting allies or making political statements like "xy sucks anyway and your a perfect example of the stupidness of your whole alliance". If it really bothers you that much i can also contact you ingame with my main, rest be assured im a player from 2004 that can fly all the ships he talks about. But lets also get to your thoughts about the domi, first the domis "OMG awesome tank" is a 7 slot large dual rep tank. There are exactly three armortanking BS in the game that can pull of a better tank slot/boni wise, and all of them rely on turret damage and usually will fit atleast a couple damagemods. So now that we established the domis tank indeed is formidable, lets go to the damps. Dampeners not only reduce your locking range, but also increase the time needed to lock things, especially small things like drones. Do you have any idea how long you will take to lock heavy drones with 3 damps on you? Even with a sensorbooster, which basicly only minmatar have the spare medslots for, you wont be able to lock them ever** if i get in close and rescoop them every 20 sec or simply recall them to my ship and out of your sensorrange. Not to mention that certain ships need all the cap their injector gives them just to run their guns, not even mentioning trying to run a mwd or tank. Also sentry drones are not slow, they are immobile. Webbing requires locking, and i never heard about a domi loosing ALL its drones in a 1on1 anyway. Fact is the domi was a royal pain in the ass for every single BS, hac or CS out there, for like 4 mil SP requirements and a fricking tier 1 BS. I can only say good riddance.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:41:00 - [1352] Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36 Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25 Quote: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him. He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor. 3 ideas: 1) 1 nosf works better than 2+ 2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you 3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good. Strange mechanic. Really Strange Hands of my toies! Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers. Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time. Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back. Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1. If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP. Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:50:00 - [1353] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 17:33:17 Originally by: Maya Rkell You're arguing that a ship can destroy any frigate in 1 second but cannot harm cruisers and battleships is balanced? Again, that's specalisation and not balance. A hugin can get nearly the same tank and dps as a vagabond. If you think it can only really kill frigates you either have no experience with that ship or are flat out lying. Did I say Hugin? No, I did not. I was talking about a hypothetical ship. Try again. Quote: The point you miss is that other recons can do that better. A huginn will disable frigs faster. A rook can permajam HACs and frigs with one module. But the rook won't make them vulnrable to fire when they're next on the target list. The Rook won't also damp another enemy, the Rook is vulnrable to failure on its jammers, the Rook dosn't have the same drone ability, etc. Quote: No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs Your loss then, I can. Quote: What previously made up for this disadvantage was its advantage for soloing. Repeating over and specalist==balance won't help. It's not. //Maya
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:51:00 - [1354] Originally by: Damned Force I agree with u. is a crazy change that a noob would be able to use same effective or even more effective the nos on a non bonused ship, like a 15m sp pilot with maxed energy skills in a curse or pilgrim(bonused ship). I think this nos change is very very unlucky in the form as it is. Sure the skilled pilot can use neuts, but with this change the nosbonus is useless :( Again a not correct change from Dev's. Here on forums was lot of good idees for noschange and from all this idees take the worst possible :( I hope this change would never activated on TQ A nos on a low-sp ship will be MARGINALLY better at DRAINING cap. You all seem to be afraid of Low-SP players sitting at 0 cap being able to Drain you so they can get back in fight. I mean how much can you fear a Low-SP player with 0 cap... If that Low-SP player trained up some CAP skills he might not need to use that NOS to drain so much anymore... This also means a high SP player will have a slight disadvantage in DRAINING cap from a low sp player. However hell have advantage since he got more cap and cap recharge. Compare this with todays low sp players running NOSdomis... Wich do you fear most low SP in NOSdomi or a low sp with a slight advantage in a NOS vs NOS module fight. If you feel noobs needs to be nerfed ppl, you should vote YES for this. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 19:58:00 - [1355] Originally by: Maya Rkell Quote: No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs Your loss then, I can. please tell us more about this statement, im sure many of use reading from both those who hate the new curse and those who like would want the hear what pros you are talkinga about here. Im sure thats the kind of stuff CCP want to read to, to decide weather the Curse needs to be adjusted. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:03:00 - [1356] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36 Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25 Quote: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him. He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor. 3 ideas: 1) 1 nosf works better than 2+ 2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you 3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good. Strange mechanic. Really Strange Hands of my toies! Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers. Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time. Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back. Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1. If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP. Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that. You are wrong/ Curse cann't destroy capacitor even from tier1 BC with such a nosfs. Curse uses nosf to keep his own capacitor, but when taget has not mamy capacitor 10-15% Curse won't be able to do anything. Even if i destroy capacitor what should i do? I can't keep my EW... Drones can be killed easilly You don't get that 2 neuts uses 320 capactior/per activation(12 sec ) and destroy 650 capacitor, And i have SB, Tracking destruptors an so on. 1100 Capacitor (with mwd) is enougph to keep active modules at about 25-20 seconds, then your only hope is nos. BUT! 1) if you have 4 nosd you cant destroy capacitor = you can't drain 2) 3 nosf 1 capacitor - the same 3) 2/2 set up not enouph capacitor, becourse sometimes you can drain, some times not. And the most important thing - you never know when you are able to drain, and when - not. These are the curse future. Sad one, i should say.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:07:00 - [1357] Originally by: Fager A Curse using a 800 can waste more then 800 from his enemie using 800. Gives advantage in Cap war witch it fights and also not all enemies uses 800 and when they dont you got even more advantage. And with the general use of NOS less ppl would i suspect use 800s as many use them as the only means to fight NOS in closerange. The problem is that you cannot see what amount of cap a target has. It might have 2%, 20% or 50%. This makes you wasting charges rather likely. As for the popularity of injectors, that goes both ways. People cannot rely on nos as energysource that much anymore so injectors also get more important as energysource. Quote: I would also like to bring another thing to the table. Cant you use a Curse to efficently kill of a ships cap and targeting in fleet? Kinda like a damper can kill its locking abilities? Assuming with fleet you mean fleets as in large scale POS sniper warfare of 50+ people? If not clarify it more. Kill a ships cap: Unless they are frigs pretty pointless. Stuff pops far quicker than you can suck it dry. And vs frigs an huginn will be better. Tracking disruptors: Utterly pointless.I explained that in detail a page ago. Copy-paste: Originally by: Aramendel Do the numbers before suggesting something which does not work. With 2 EW range rigs TDs still have only a 10% chance for a TD to work at 150k. To compare: a lachesis with 2 EW range rigs has a 52% chance for a damp to work at 150k and will damp a 220k lock range 2 sensorbooster mega down to 65k. Hell, the amarr recon will be better with damps, same chance for them to work, the mega will just be "only" damped to 86k instead 65k. Of cource, then you will not use a single shipbonus of the curse and might just as well use any other ship with 6 medium slots. Even if we ignore the range problems: TDs are extremly limited. It's not only not useless vs missiles. It is also pointless vs nos/neut. Webs. Scrams. All kinds of EW. And also does not limit drone control like ECM and damps do. Neither are they more effective per module. I can have 2 of them on a ship of equal size and if it is faster than me and counters the range limitations and my transversal it can hit me fine. Quote: I mean just couse primary dies wihtout wasting all its cap doesnt mean you cant drain other ships like say.. Blasterboats or stop speeders. Against speeders a huginn is far far better. All blasterboats but the thorax/deimos will have a cap injector fitted. Neuting them in preperation is pretty dumb - since you simply cannot know if they boosted their cap up or not. I'd rather jump in a caldari recon and keep on average 3-4 targets disabled instantly. And for these fights I will be able to do just that in 7 more days. It's agin, not that it is "useless". It just has a lot better alternatives.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:09:00 - [1358] Edited by: Damned Force on 04/08/2007 20:11:27 Originally by: Crash Sagramo Originally by: Fager Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36 Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25 Quote: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him. He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor. 3 ideas: 1) 1 nosf works better than 2+ 2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you 3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good. Strange mechanic. Really Strange Hands of my toies! Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers. Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time. Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back. Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1. If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP. Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that. You are wrong/ Curse cann't destroy capacitor even from tier1 BC with such a nosfs. Curse uses nosf to keep his own capacitor, but when taget has not mamy capacitor 10-15% Curse won't be able to do anything. Even if i destroy capacitor what should i do? I can't keep my EW... Drones can be killed easilly You don't get that 2 neuts uses 320 capactior/per activation(12 sec ) and destroy 650 capacitor, And i have SB, Tracking destruptors an so on. 1100 Capacitor (with mwd) is enougph to keep active modules at about 25-20 seconds, then your only hope is nos. BUT! 1) if you have 4 nosd you cant destroy capacitor = you can't drain 2) 3 nosf 1 capacitor - the same 3) 2/2 set up not enouph capacitor, becourse sometimes you can drain, some times not. And the most important thing - you never know when you are able to drain, and when - not. These are the curse future. Sad one, i should say. Exatly. I braek amarr recon training and train something else
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:20:00 - [1359] Originally by: Maya Rkell Did I say Hugin? No, I did not. I was talking about a hypothetical ship. Try again. Exept we are not talking about "hypothetical ships" we are talking about existing ships. Quote: But the rook won't make them vulnrable to fire when they're next on the target list. The Rook won't also damp another enemy, the Rook is vulnrable to failure on its jammers, the Rook dosn't have the same drone ability, etc. Your first sentence makes no sense. A rook can disable with ECM far more targets than a curse can with damps or TDs. A curse can with damps in bigger gangs only disable one single target, it is by enemy fire just as vulnerable as the rook. Neither is the rook vulnerable to drones since it can operate outside it. Quote: Your loss then, I can. No arguments = white noise. Everyone can say "this is so." Quote: Repeating over and specalist==balance won't help. It's not. Advantages in one area counter disadvantages in another area. If a ship is bad in one area it has to be good in another area to stay balanced. You can say "it is not" like a child throwing a tantrum as often as you want, I'll reply to you again when you start behaving like an aduld and substantiate what you say with arguments.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:22:00 - [1360] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Maya Rkell Quote: No. I am saying that I can think of NO use for the curse in something in med and bigger gangs Your loss then, I can. please tell us more about this statement, im sure many of use reading from both those who hate the new curse and those who like would want the hear what pros you are talkinga about here. Im sure thats the kind of stuff CCP want to read to, to decide weather the Curse needs to be adjusted. I allready have. Nos the next target in line. For many ships that'll affect their firing ability, and when the primary target is dead the secondary will go quickly too. In the meantime the Curse has moved on again... (oh, and use a single neut to swat those pesky frig's cap...) //Maya

Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:27:00 - [1361] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Maya Rkell Did I say Hugin? No, I did not. I was talking about a hypothetical ship. Try again. Exept we are not talking about "hypothetical ships" we are talking about existing ships. Right. Dodge, twist, turn, don't answer my question. Amusing. Quote: But the rook won't make them vulnrable to fire when they're next on the target list. The Rook won't also damp another enemy, the Rook is vulnrable to failure on its jammers, the Rook dosn't have the same drone ability, etc. Your first sentence makes no sense. Makes perfect sense. A jammed target loses no ability to use modules. A cap-drained target does. You're still trying to brush off a question which you fundermentally cannot answer in terms favourable to you. There is a difference between balance issues in a fight and specalised ships. For example, the covert ops ship is specalised. It also happens not to be able to fight more generally. The curse was specalised as a solo killer, and it could fight more generally. It's now been placed on the same level as other ships, that a ship with general fighting abilities does not also have a specalisation in which it cannot ever be matched. //Maya
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:35:00 - [1362] Originally by: Crash Sagramo Originally by: Fager Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 19:03:36 Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 18:42:25 Quote: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. Smart use?! You use 175 grid 20 cpu. You have bonuses to use nosf/neut. But when you activate you good module you don't know, will it work or not. If i'm minmatar and figting single curse on vaga, muninn, huginn, i'll get to 500 meters to this poor curse and then burn start nosf him. He couldn't becourse: he do it better->he drains more capacitor->he has more capacitor->he can't drain capacitor. 3 ideas: 1) 1 nosf works better than 2+ 2) If you have better energy skills then your target he would be able to nosf you 3) If your ship has bonus to nosf you can't nosf target, becouse you do it too good. Strange mechanic. Really Strange Hands of my toies! Correct me if im wrong, but fighting a curse wouldnt the curse prime goal be to kill your cap before his? using neutralizers. Since he has more cap, does it better and all that he can use nautralizers VERY good against a low Max Cap ship. Your vaga will be drained in no time. Now that means NOS should be effective since hell make sure your cap is down and you use your NOS to get back at him and get Cap back. Having 2 NOS will counter 2 Neuts faster then 1. If you have bonus to nos and Neuts you can use NOS to keep a heavy CAP setup stable sicne your planning on wasting CAP, or Neuts if you plan on killing the enemies CAP. Also i believe most small ships dont have NOS/Neut bonuses, wich was the kind of ships i was talking about in that quote you put in. I wasnt pointing any of post against the curse/pilgrim. I was just saying that even thou smaller NOS version also got hit by the change i put some points in how they were also made better and asked for some thoughts by the poster i qouted and what he thought about that. You are wrong/ Curse cann't destroy capacitor even from tier1 BC with such a nosfs. Curse uses nosf to keep his own capacitor, but when taget has not mamy capacitor 10-15% Curse won't be able to do anything. Even if i destroy capacitor what should i do? I can't keep my EW... Drones can be killed easilly You don't get that 2 neuts uses 320 capactior/per activation(12 sec ) and destroy 650 capacitor, And i have SB, Tracking destruptors an so on. 1100 Capacitor (with mwd) is enougph to keep active modules at about 25-20 seconds, then your only hope is nos. BUT! 1) if you have 4 nosd you cant destroy capacitor = you can't drain 2) 3 nosf 1 capacitor - the same 3) 2/2 set up not enouph capacitor, becourse sometimes you can drain, some times not. And the most important thing - you never know when you are able to drain, and when - not. These are the curse future. Sad one, i should say. Good points, seems one of the greatest disatvantages for the new curse would be its unability to see its targets CAP and use its NOS/Neuts in the right way... I mean if you knew the cap it would be possible to use NOS/neuts in combo to first drain him down and then when your equal you wack his cap under 30% while your is above to win the CAP fights... But to the origin of your first quote to me: Also the fact that a medium or small NOS will work in many cases still if you fit for a smart use of them. please understand this statement was meant to the standard use on standard ships using NOS to sustain CAP on smaller ships. It had nothing to do with the curse/pilgrim issue. I was pointing out that using NOS on smaller ship didnt seem broken compared to what the one i quoted was implying. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:47:00 - [1363] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Fager A Curse using a 800 can waste more then 800 from his enemie using 800. Gives advantage in Cap war witch it fights and also not all enemies uses 800 and when they dont you got even more advantage. And with the general use of NOS less ppl would i suspect use 800s as many use them as the only means to fight NOS in closerange. The problem is that you cannot see what amount of cap a target has. It might have 2%, 20% or 50%. This makes you wasting charges rather likely. As for the popularity of injectors, that goes both ways. People cannot rely on nos as energysource that much anymore so injectors also get more important as energysource. Quote: I would also like to bring another thing to the table. Cant you use a Curse to efficently kill of a ships cap and targeting in fleet? Kinda like a damper can kill its locking abilities? Assuming with fleet you mean fleets as in large scale POS sniper warfare of 50+ people? If not clarify it more. Kill a ships cap: Unless they are frigs pretty pointless. Stuff pops far quicker than you can suck it dry. And vs frigs an huginn will be better. Tracking disruptors: Utterly pointless.I explained that in detail a page ago. Copy-paste: Originally by: Aramendel Do the numbers before suggesting something which does not work. With 2 EW range rigs TDs still have only a 10% chance for a TD to work at 150k. To compare: a lachesis with 2 EW range rigs has a 52% chance for a damp to work at 150k and will damp a 220k lock range 2 sensorbooster mega down to 65k. Hell, the amarr recon will be better with damps, same chance for them to work, the mega will just be "only" damped to 86k instead 65k. Of cource, then you will not use a single shipbonus of the curse and might just as well use any other ship with 6 medium slots. Even if we ignore the range problems: TDs are extremly limited. It's not only not useless vs missiles. It is also pointless vs nos/neut. Webs. Scrams. All kinds of EW. And also does not limit drone control like ECM and damps do. Neither are they more effective per module. I can have 2 of them on a ship of equal size and if it is faster than me and counters the range limitations and my transversal it can hit me fine. Quote: I mean just couse primary dies wihtout wasting all its cap doesnt mean you cant drain other ships like say.. Blasterboats or stop speeders. Against speeders a huginn is far far better. All blasterboats but the thorax/deimos will have a cap injector fitted. Neuting them in preperation is pretty dumb - since you simply cannot know if they boosted their cap up or not. I'd rather jump in a caldari recon and keep on average 3-4 targets disabled instantly. And for these fights I will be able to do just that in 7 more days. It's agin, not that it is "useless". It just has a lot better alternatives. Nicely put. In the curse versus caldari. The caldari ship wont be able to stop fast ships thou. A Curse can cap em out to make em stop, and even web drones to slow en down more. I know a minmatar recon can slow em down better but minmatar reconns cant do stuff amarr reconns can with capwarfare. But its true i agree with you... it seems very situational and sub par. Hopefully CCP will check into this like they are checking into the bloodraider ships who are also capwarfare specialists. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.04 20:58:00 - [1364] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 21:01:45 Originally by: Maya Rkell Makes perfect sense. A jammed target loses no ability to use modules. A cap-drained target does. Utterly, completely wrong. A jammed target cannot use all modules which require a target to work. Because you cannot target anything. A cap drained target can use all modules which do not require cap to work just fine. And also instantly can "cure" this by using a cap booster. ECCM will only boosts your chance not to be effected in the next cycle. Also using ECM is instant disabeling. Draining a targets cap is delayed. In bigger gangs killing the target happens before that. Quote: You're still trying to brush off a question which you fundermentally cannot answer in terms favourable to you. How can I avoid to answer something which was never asked or explained? Until now all you said regarding this "it is not the same thing." Quote: There is a difference between balance issues in a fight and specalised ships. For example, the covert ops ship is specalised. It also happens not to be able to fight more generally. The curse was specalised as a solo killer, and it could fight more generally. It's now been placed on the same level as other ships, that a ship with general fighting abilities does not also have a specalisation in which it cannot ever be matched. Specialization can happen in every order of magnitude. Comparing the extreme specialisation of a cov ops to that of a recon ship is rather silly. All recon ships are specialized in disabeling ships in a certain way. The curse by draining their cap (which is a delayed disabeling) and reducing the efficiency of their turrets. The huginn by killing their speed. The lachesis by reducing their targeting range & speed and warp scrambling them from high ranges. The rook by removing their ability to lock anything & being able to do that from high ranges. The very nature makes them more effective in certain situations and less effective in other situations. Due to nos being delayed as disabeling device it is unlike damps and ECM not alyways useful. Its main advantage over these is that unlike them it can disable tanks. This can also be done by simple dps. In medium and bigger gangs dps "disables" targets before cap warefare does. Instant disabeling of targets by damps and ECM however is still useful, as are longrange webs. TDs on their own cannot compete with those. Solo the reverse is the case, there cap warfare can disable a targets tank before dps does. The very nature of capwarefare makes it more efficient solo than it is in larger groups. It has an advantage in one area which is balanced by a disadvantage in another area. Just like with all the other recons.
Neo Providence	Posted - 2007.08.04 21:04:00 - [1365] I'm somewhat confused. What would happened if two ships were to use nos on each other. how would that be worked out?
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 21:37:00 - [1366] Originally by: Neo Providence I'm somewhat confused. What would happened if two ships were to use nos on each other. how would that be worked out? The one with lower CAP% would drain CAP from the one with higher %CAP. The one with higher % wouldnt be able to drain his opponent with lower %CAP. The one with lower %CAP will be able to drain until both %cap are at the same lvl or unthill his enemies cap went under his for different reasons like using TANKmods or something. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.04 21:58:00 - [1367] Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 11:46:21 You have only your opinion, and i have facts and my practice! I'll say again: 1)without nosfs, curse will be useless. 2) With nosfs working like was said in dev blog curse will be useless. It will be beble to destroyed even with tech 1 cruiser Maybe useless for you, but there have been a number of Curse pilots who have reported that they have adapted and, while they have to be more careful and better pilots, they can still use their Curse very effectively. Obviously, not everyone (particularly those who do nothing but fit cookie-cutter setups) will be able to cope and will have to stop using the Curse because it will be useless to them with the current cookie-cutter setups. The Pilgrim, however, has been hurt too bad and needs fixes. The Dev post said they are looking into it.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.04 21:58:00 - [1368] (Can't quote Bentula for some reason but this is in reply to Bentula anyways) First of all, post with your main. I wanna know who I'm talking to, secondly, not insulting you just saying a young mission runner wouldn't have much experience to determine if nos's should get nerfed or not. Moving on to the actual post I gotta say I'm actually getting bored explaining the obvious. Yes, I know sentry drones can't move, that's why they're quite easy to kill. So are heavy drones, even though you're damped you'd be able to get them if you tried hard enough. AND even if you couldn't actually catch them (which is likely considering so many people are whining over nosboats) there is NO WAY IN HELL the domi can keep everything running long enough to kill another BS without fitting a cap injector on the domi. Thing about the damp setup is it's not that great, and it's not that common and it's not that hard to beat. The Domi doesn't have a bad tank, indeed it's not bad. But EVERY other gallente BS is able to have a just as good or better tank and still have much better damage output. Fair enough, since it's a tier 1 BS. But it's definetly not overpowered. Just because you can fit damage mods on the mega/hyp doesn't mean you have to you know. The Dominix breaks quite fast under fire alot easier then say a hyperion's tank does. So you don't even have to worry about running the domi out of cap before you can kill it, which the domi has to worry about in every single fight. It's a different way of playing, some setups are better then others and some fights you just can't win. That's fine, that's balanced, and it makes for fun and interesting pvp. And if you need all your cap boosters just to run maybe you shouldn't be engaging a domi in the first place. Just because you have guns don't mean you should pwn every other ship. And if you're worried about cap you can always fit a non cap-reliant weapon on your amarr ship, AC's anyone? I will not ******* explain this any more in any post and people should try flying Domi's before saying it's overpowered, just like anything else you don't really know the ship if you haven't flown it. Yarr
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.04 22:00:00 - [1369] Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Shadowsword A standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets Except now it can't fill its role as its not getting any boost to its NOS which is the entire point of the ship. As an EW boat it is only effective against turrets which many ships don't use, as an EW platform it is surpassed by both the Arazu and Rook which can effect ALL ships. If you read really close and carefully, you'll see the bonus is to both NOS and NEUTs... not just NOS... and, last time I looked, NEUTs work against ALL ships.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.04 22:01:00 - [1370] Originally by: IPyric yep your correct. to use NOS now your better of with no CAP Skills and we cant untrain them :/ Reading, FTL... the Dev post has already said they are looking into this.

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 22:03:00 - [1371] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 04/08/2007 21:01:45 Originally by: Maya Rkell Makes perfect sense. A jammed target loses no ability to use modules. A cap-drained target does. Utterly, completely wrong. A jammed target cannot use all modules which require a target to work. Because you cannot target anything. A cap drained target can use all modules which do not require cap to work just fine. And also instantly can "cure" this by using a cap booster. ECCM will only boosts your chance not to be effected in the next cycle. Also using ECM is instant disabeling. Draining a targets cap is delayed. In bigger gangs killing the target happens before that. Well if you want to compare ECM to CAPwarfare there are som more points to consider. - ECM stops your enemies offensive/defensive targeting required modules. - ECM doesnt stop Tank or Speed. Doesnt stop F.O.F or to some extent drones. - ECM requires lowslots. - ECCM lowers ECM effectivness effectively, this module is rarely fitted thou for good reasons. - ECCM dont have Racial proportions when used. (if you minmatar and use a gallante EECM then GG you) - ECM is also VERY cap hungry ofthen taken the ECMships out of CAP if they use full racks. - ECM is instant when it hits, but only for a timelimit. - ECM has RACIAL proportions... ECM in itself is over 6 modules. I mean TDs work only on guns rights, but a minmatar jammer works only on minmatar. - ECM has great Range and actually since it used mostely in fleets can use that range. its not all a catwalk with ECM, theres a reason ppl prefer DAMPs these days... Also Amarr reconns have TDs above CAPwarfare althou its uses are limited. Amarr has Dronespace wich is a huge advantage over Caldari reconns. Drones can be used for the standard dmg but also for EW itself.. web, neuts, TD, paint, ecm.... Do you think a Curse could kill BS ships cap easier with NEUT drones perhaps? or use webdrones to keep a speeder in place after you stopped him once with cap... Caldari is ECM only, amarr have CApwarfare+TD and can usually in someway tank and do their job... and to top it a dronebay. A falcon/rook is more "if fire comes your way warp out unless you got another ECM of the right and cap to use it to make the attacker go away..." Amarr reconns migth not be able to take out a ship as fast as ECM, but it can do lots of other things to... The ECM ships can tank, cant move, cant take speeders, cant kill tanks, its system is chance based. Perhaps you can understand why i dont see the Curse as DEAD as some others here.. atleast not compared to caldari reconns. Still i agree and understand how it can also be seen as pretty useless.. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.04 22:11:00 - [1372] Quote: Exatly. I braek amarr recon training and train something else Good... we don't need another FOTM pilot flying a solopwnmobile
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 22:38:00 - [1373] Originally by: William DeMeo (Can't quote Bentula for some reason but this is in reply to Bentula anyways) First of all, post with your main. I wanna know who I'm talking to, secondly, not insulting you just saying a young mission runner wouldn't have much experience to determine if nos's should get nerfed or not. Moving on to the actual post I gotta say I'm actually getting bored explaining the obvious. Yes, I know sentry drones can't move, that's why they're quite easy to kill. So are heavy drones, even though you're damped you'd be able to get them if you tried hard enough. AND even if you couldn't actually catch them (which is likely considering so many people are whining over nosboats) there is NO WAY IN HELL the domi can keep everything running long enough to kill another BS without fitting a cap injector on the domi. Thing about the damp setup is it's not that great, and it's not that common and it's not that hard to beat. The Domi doesn't have a bad tank, indeed it's not bad. But EVERY other gallente BS is able to have a just as good or better tank and still have much better damage output. Fair enough, since it's a tier 1 BS. But it's definetly not overpowered. Just because you can fit damage mods on the mega/hyp doesn't mean you have to you know. The Dominix breaks quite fast under fire alot easier then say a hyperion's tank does. So you don't even have to worry about running the domi out of cap before you can kill it, which the domi has to worry about in every single fight. It's a different way of playing, some setups are better then others and some fights you just can't win. That's fine, that's balanced, and it makes for fun and interesting pvp. And if you need all your cap boosters just to run maybe you shouldn't be engaging a domi in the first place. Just because you have guns don't mean you should pwn every other ship. And if you're worried about cap you can always fit a non cap-reliant weapon on your amarr ship, AC's anyone? I will not ******* explain this any more in any post and people should try flying Domi's before saying it's overpowered, just like anything else you don't really know the ship if you haven't flown it. Lets say for the argument that the Droneboats w/NOSracks arent overpowered (as meaning they can kill way to many ships and there are to few countermeasures to it, none is still not saying that they are i-win boats. Just to powerful generally.) This doesnt solve the Balancing issue with the module NOS. If its balanced then explain to me why 99.9% of the population thinking about fitting a CAPwarfare wpn doesnt fit a neutralizer? It sucks in comparison to the NOS. as said before there are more problems to NOS then just on droneboats, however thats a point where its problem shines alot and gets alot of attention. If the dronboats truly were balanced and as easy to kill as most otherships, ppl wouldnt scream so much about it. I mean why dont ppl whine about the blasterthron? i mean how much can win against that in closerange, but ah its got enough drawbacks on other places so most ppl feel its ok if you get cought by it and go down in a large pile of glowing wreck of blasterammo. Its not that ppl cant find any way to kill a NOS domi, its that ppl feel that there are to few ways and to few ships and setups that can fight that ship fair and square and even fewer that actually got advantage on it. And saying there are some ways to kill a DOMI only means its not i-win. Doesnt mean it isnt to powerful. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Zorok Tactical Precision	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:22:00 - [1374] After reading many of the opinions here, I can't add any new suggestions to the current argument over the proposed NOS nerf. I like the limited engineering slot idea. As far as CCP's idea goes, I can only say that it appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to a non-issue. If they go through with this change, the Nosferatu will no longer be used and I don't think this is what CCP would want to do. (Kind of like inertial stabs used to be). At best you should put this kind of change up to a vote before implementing something that can tilt the game in favor of another race's ships. Thanks!! -Zorok
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.04 23:38:00 - [1375] Edited by:**er on 04/08/2007 23:39:08 Originally by: Zorok After reading many of the opinions here, I can't add any new suggestions to the current argument over the proposed NOS nerf. I like the limited engineering slot idea. As far as CCP's idea goes, I can only say that it appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to a non-issue. If they go through with this change, the Nosferatu will no longer be used and I don't think this is what CCP would want to do. (Kind of like inertial stabs used to be). At best you should put this kind of change up to a vote before implementing something that can tilt the game in favor of another race's ships. Thanks!! -Zorok Ill be using NOS after the change... And as far as chaning pvp balance between races.. well its not like CCP hasnt done it several times before. Once upon a time Caldari was the pvp race of choise.. laughable huh considering their status today. And if one race has to much advantage dont you think they should try and tip the balance? Or will that perhaps waste to many precious SP spent in a race that wasnt at the top anymore? And as far as other ideas go, i like the current one and a mix of the one having NOS getting a NOS slot and targeting qualities, leaving NEUTs as they where. However i can see why CCP wanted to avoid having to REBALANCE every ship in existence to new slot layouts.. if one ship has to many NOS slots compared it need to have less in others. with this change they just have to worry about a few selective ones. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.05 00:00:00 - [1376] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 05/08/2007 00:01:01 Words, words, words, many words. Curse will be dead with such a nosfs. Every pilot, who used it understand me. The others don't. Ive read about cap injector... Funny. 350 cargo (6 batteries 800) and at about 1125 grid. and you have to fit neuts (200 each) mwd (165) armor repair (150) Everybody: do you really want to spent you grid and cpu to fit a module that will nit work when you need it? Neuts - expencive to grid and capacitor. The time of smartboms came. I'm very sad.
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance	Posted - 2007.08.05 00:12:00 - [1377] Originally by: Fager Once upon a time Caldari was the pvp race of choise.. Yeah, but you also remember that once upon a time there were absolutely no skills to go with missiles except the skill to use them. They did full damage to EVERY single ship, and you could fit 4 cruise launchers on a kessie. It got nerfed for a damn good reason, when a battleship with 6 torps could instapop almost every ship below its class instantly. The problem with drone boats though are that they tend to lack the kinda fitting to allow them an affective top slot config that doesn't kill their tank. My alt's domi was a nos domi. I used medium nos instead of heavies, but it goes down the same path. Changes will wreak havoc on the effectiveness of my setup, but it wasn't like I could kill everything in the game. Any recon ship can take a domi 1-1, even the rook. They might not be able to kill it that quickly, but given enough time, it's possible to do anything. Before the nerf to ECM, I've held a nos domi in place with a scorpion for 5 minutes, slowly killing it, and dying at the same time, while help flew to assist me. Plenty of ships out there can go 1-1 with a domi if they're expecting it. Amarrian ships tend to fall down when it comes to fighting one, but the other races, including gallente, tend to stand toe-to-toe and go the distance. It's just that usually, when you find one domi, you find it's friends... =+=+=+=+=+=+= Originally by: Black Torment OH GOD, DROWNING IN TINFOIL.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 00:32:00 - [1378] Edited by:**er on 05/08/2007 00:32:37 Yeah, but you also remember that once upon a time there were absolutely no skills to go with missiles except the skill to use them. They did full damage to EVERY single ship, and you could fit 4 cruise launchers on a kessie. It got nerfed for a damn good reason, when a battleship with 6 torps could instapop almost every ship below its class instantly. aah the good old days hehe... PPL wanted balanced, they got balanced. Same **** here, perhaps not as urgent and is also perhaps why it has taken so long before CCP got to it. The problem with drone boats though are that they tend to lack the kinda fitting to allow them an affective top slot config that doesn't kill their tank. My alt's domi was a nos domi. I used medium nos instead of heavies, but it goes down the same path. Well.. we all got fitting problems.. im having serious troubles fitting a good tank with scram+ew and those kind of EWAR modules on my missile ships. Changes will wreak havoc on the effectiveness of my setup, but it wasn't like I could kill everything in the game. Any recon ship can take a domi 1-1, even the rook. They might not be able to kill it that quickly, but given enough time, it's possible to do anything. The old Torp raven could be killed also, and it was far from impossible. Did that balance it? How about the Nanophoon, was it really unkillable. I bet you many ppl felt that there where enough setups that brought it down. Look im not saying its the same thing, but the principle is. Just cause the domi wasnt unkillable didnt mean it wasnt to effective, just like the old Torp Raven was. I mean seriously if the NOSdomi was balanced there wouldnt be so many cries on it, personally i fly ECM ships mostely and arent really effected by the NOSdomi but i can understand when a ship stands out so much that it needs tp be put back in line. There are also more problems to NOS then just the ones on a domi, but as said before it was on the droneboats that they shined throu the most and ppl want that ship balanced. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Judician Nar	Posted - 2007.08.05 01:35:00 - [1379] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have some interesting changes to Khanid ... <snip> Vengeance (Assault Ship) Hardpoints: 4 launchers (+2), 1 turret (-2) Typo anyone?? the Vengeance has 4 high slots currently, one of which is a launcher. 1 current + 2 new = 3, then +1 turret = the current 4 high slots. Unless you're planning on giving it another high?? Though this wasn't mentioned in the overall description... Clarification please! PS. On the whole the idea of the Khanid changes is great. Some minor tweaks will bring it through.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.05 02:08:00 - [1380] Originally by: Fager Well if you want to compare ECM to CAPwarfare there are som more points to consider. ... Mostly correct, a few points are wrong or unneeded here however. Doesnt stop F.O.F or to some extent drones. - applies for every single EW (and nos). (And also damps. There is a frequent disinformation that drones and/or FoF do not attack outside targeting range..they do.) ECM is also VERY cap hungry - depends. On t1 ships yes, however on the falcon and rook multispecs need as much cap/sec as damps and racials only 0.66 of them. TDs need still less though. I mean TDs work only on guns rights, but a minmatar jammer works only on minmatar. - Not exactly. It has higher efficiency vs minmatar, but it still has reduced efficiency vs everything else. And it does make a difference. For example if I use 1 single racial of strength 12 vs a 21 sensorstrength target I have a 57% chance of jamming it. If I use 1 of each racial (aka 1 * 12 and 3 * 4) I have a 77% chance of jamming it. And there are still multies (where 4 would be an 85% chance). Quote: its not all a catwalk with ECM, theres a reason ppl prefer DAMPs these days... Jepp, but that is mostly because damps are too strong atm. They are not hugely overpowered, but they are too strong at range ( 3 t1 EW rigs and a scorpion is better as anti-sniper EW ship with damps at 150k than with racial ECM, max skills and 4 SDA2s. Better as in "each module has an higher chance to efficiently disable a sniper." Being able to fit a 4 slot tank is only a bonus.) and the dual targeting range and sig resolution makes "getting closer" an somewhat ineffective counter against them. Quote: Also Amarr reconns have TDs above CAPwarfare althou its uses are limited. Amarr has Dronespace wich is a huge advantage over Caldari reconns. Drones can be used for the standard dmg but also for EW itself.. web, neuts, TD, paint, ecm.... All combat utility & EW drones but ECM, web & neuts are more or less useless - stacking penalities make them have a very minor effect. Also effect web drones, but those have an high enough bonus to have at least some effect. And I would still never ever use those on a curse or pilgrim since there are only heavy web drones (meaning you can carry 3 and your dronebay is full) and they are very fragile. And no drones = no damage. A rook does with navy ammo 175 dps, which is not much below that of the curse. So addng the curses dronebay as additional advantage is a bit unfair. Different story for the falcon, but its equivalent is the pilgrim which as quite a few additional problems of his own. Quote: Do you think a Curse could kill BS ships cap easier with NEUT drones perhaps? or use webdrones to keep a speeder in place after you stopped him once with cap... I am not sure how familiar you are with it, but the curse usually is utterly dependant on its drones for dps. So using web or neut (or in general anything other than damage drones) makes its drone dps bonus go to waste and will remove its only real dps source. It has only a 75m¦ dronebay, thats enough for 5 meds, 5 lights. Using missiles in its high is an option, but no real effective one. Quote: Amarr reconns migth not be able to take out a ship as fast as ECM, but it can do lots of other things to... The ECM ships can tank, cant move, cant take speeders, cant kill tanks, its system is chance based. Tank is relative. It is more a "tank". They can, if they fit for it, tank stray drone damage, but thats about it. Any form of concentrated damage and the pop rather quickly. In gang combat they can in the end only survive by avoiding damage. Caladari recons have basically no tank, but their high range makes up for that quite a bit (for example they can avoid drone damage entierly by it).

William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.05 02:34:00 - [1381] Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo (Can't quote Bentula for some reason but this is in reply to Bentula anyways) First of all, post with your main. I wanna know who I'm talking to, secondly, not insulting you just saying a young mission runner wouldn't have much experience to determine if nos's should get nerfed or not. Moving on to the actual post I gotta say I'm actually getting bored explaining the obvious. Yes, I know sentry drones can't move, that's why they're quite easy to kill. So are heavy drones, even though you're damped you'd be able to get them if you tried hard enough. AND even if you couldn't actually catch them (which is likely considering so many people are whining over nosboats) there is NO WAY IN HELL the domi can keep everything running long enough to kill another BS without fitting a cap injector on the domi. Thing about the damp setup is it's not that great, and it's not that common and it's not that hard to beat. The Domi doesn't have a bad tank, indeed it's not bad. But EVERY other gallente BS is able to have a just as good or better tank and still have much better damage output. Fair enough, since it's a tier 1 BS. But it's definetly not overpowered. Just because you can fit damage mods on the mega/hyp doesn't mean you have to you know. The Dominix breaks quite fast under fire alot easier then say a hyperion's tank does. So you don't even have to worry about running the domi out of cap before you can kill it, which the domi has to worry about in every single fight. It's a different way of playing, some setups are better then others and some fights you just can't win. That's fine, that's balanced, and it makes for fun and interesting pvp. And if you need all your cap boosters just to run maybe you shouldn't be engaging a domi in the first place. Just because you have guns don't mean you should pwn every other ship. And if you're worried about cap you can always fit a non cap-reliant weapon on your amarr ship, AC's anyone? I will not ******* explain this any more in any post and people should try flying Domi's before saying it's overpowered, just like anything else you don't really know the ship if you haven't flown it. Lets say for the argument that the Droneboats w/NOSracks arent overpowered (as meaning they can kill way to many ships and there are to few countermeasures to it, none is still not saying that they are i-win boats. Just to powerful generally.) This doesnt solve the Balancing issue with the module NOS. If its balanced then explain to me why 99.9% of the population thinking about fitting a CAPwarfare wpn doesnt fit a neutralizer? It sucks in comparison to the NOS. as said before there are more problems to NOS then just on droneboats, however thats a point where its problem shines alot and gets alot of attention. If the dronboats truly were balanced and as easy to kill as most otherships, ppl wouldnt scream so much about it. I mean why dont ppl whine about the blasterthron? i mean how much can win against that in closerange, but ah its got enough drawbacks on other places so most ppl feel its ok if you get cought by it and go down in a large pile of glowing wreck of blasterammo. Its not that ppl cant find any way to kill a NOS domi, its that ppl feel that there are to few ways and to few ships and setups that can fight that ship fair and square and even fewer that actually got advantage on it. And saying there are some ways to kill a DOMI only means its not i-win. Doesnt mean it isnt to powerful. Nos isn't overpowered. It's neuts that need a buff. Why don't people fit HAM's instead of regular heavy missiles? Nos is fine, neuts needs to get buffed. Yarr
Sanilnar	Posted - 2007.08.05 02:50:00 - [1382] The best part about this post was one that, due to the large amount of whining about the nos and khanid changes, probably went unnoticed. "...but the revised Khanid ships focus more on close range combat with bonuses to rockets/heavy assault missiles (and hopefully torpedos eventually)..." Do you guys understand what that means? t2 Battleships!!!!! \0/ On another note... all the changes you guys have on the nosferatu, and most of the ones for the khanid ships... blow ass.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 02:52:00 - [1383] Originally by: Aramendel Doesnt stop F.O.F or to some extent drones. - applies for every single EW (and nos). (And also damps. There is a frequent disinformation that drones and/or FoF do not attack outside targeting range..they do.) Ok i admit that had little to do with comparing to NOS, my bad I mean TDs work only on guns rights, but a minmatar jammer works only on minmatar. - Not exactly. It has higher efficiency vs minmatar, but it still has reduced efficiency vs everything else. And it does make a difference. For example if I use 1 single racial of strength 12 vs a 21 sensorstrength target I have a 57% chance of jamming it. If I use 1 of each racial (aka 1 * 12 and 3 * 4) I have a 77% chance of jamming it. And there are still multies (where 4 would be an 85% chance). Ok but still you gotta fit different ECMs and theres possibilities to fit wrong types wich creates extreemly subpar and dangerous situations for the ECM user. TDs and especially CAPwarfare dont suffer such situations. Quote: Also Amarr reconns have TDs above CAPwarfare althou its uses are limited. Amarr has Dronespace wich is a huge advantage over Caldari reconns. Drones can be used for the standard dmg but also for EW itself.. web, neuts, TD, paint, ecm.... All combat utility & EW drones but ECM, web & neuts are more or less useless - stacking penalities make them have a very minor effect. Also effect web drones, but those have an high enough bonus to have at least some effect. And I would still never ever use those on a curse or pilgrim since there are only heavy web drones (meaning you can carry 3 and your dronebay is full) and they are very fragile. I was generally pointing out that the Curse could fit for NEUT drones or WEB drones to do perform more tasks like stopping speeders or draining cap faster. This was intended in more gang fights where you were not the center of attantion comming to DPS. Kinda like a Rook in group is smarter by staying far far away just ECMing. comments in BOLD above Was just generally trying to show that Curse had a jack-of-all-trades in it wich caldari reconns dont due to its dronbay and how its EWAR works. But your points are well made, many of my arguments are very situational also i realise reading them again and close to sometimes being silly :p All in all i still believe the NOS change CCP has choosen is overall the best, and i hope that they look after the curse/pilgrim as they said they would look after the bloodraider ships. Otherships i feel will hurt from the Khanid changes are the Cerberus, but ill just do the old adept thingy and train for sacri instead heh. Just to show that i dont think all is well with this patch and it hurts me to see the cerberus so outdone. But aslong as Damps are overp.... very powerdul i can still use it as an expensive Caracal heh. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 03:11:00 - [1384] Originally by: William DeMeo Nos isn't overpowered. It's neuts that need a buff. Why don't people fit HAM's instead of regular heavy missiles? Nos is fine, neuts needs to get buffed. PPL dont fit HAMs couse there are no missile ship fast enough to use em. Tell me what kinds of buff to NEUTs would make them balanced. I mean why use rack of NEUTs when a RACK of NOS gives you the same effect just abit slower, but at a astronomical lower cost and even some more gains? Youd have to boost neutralizers to the skies to match the NOS, wich proves its worth and power. Also the ships that can use full racks of EW are most usually the ships who got an alternative source of dmg, drones. To boost Neuts and keep NOS will lead to a boost the ships who can most efficiently use these modules. Ah well, i can see the logic in this change, and if CCP keeps its records that once its on the test server itll hit Tranq itll all be fine. Hopefully with some few changes to some ships and perhaps tweaks to NEUTs and NOS in some way. I feel like im only repeating myself now, CCP has deemed NOS overpowered, a FIX is comming and i believe the option they choosed has been reasonable and above most other options. Arguments against it that has serious value is the curse/pilgrim. As for the khanid ships i dunno, ppl whining about training more skills dont get my sympathy thou and im loving the new sacrilage. Finally a missile boat that armor tanks and got the speed for HAMs. R.I.P Cerberus. NOSdomi pilots who feels there ship could be kill by some tactics and was balanced can keep crying, they cant convince me and many others and i cant convince them. I feel for the curse/pilgrim pilots thou. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.05 08:39:00 - [1385] Originally by: Judician Nar Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have some interesting changes to Khanid ... <snip> Vengeance (Assault Ship) Hardpoints: 4 launchers (+2), 1 turret (-2) Typo anyone?? the Vengeance has 4 high slots currently, one of which is a launcher. 1 current + 2 new = 3, then +1 turret = the current 4 high slots. Unless you're planning on giving it another high?? Though this wasn't mentioned in the overall description... Clarification please! PS. On the whole the idea of the Khanid changes is great. Some minor tweaks will bring it through. Would like some clarification on this aswell. I think it means 4 highslots and you have to choose wether to fit a turret or launcher in the last(note it doesnt say highslots but hardpoints), still the 4 launchers and the +2 dont add up.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.05 08:42:00 - [1386] About nosf fix again. I'm ok with a nosf fix, but not this one. It kills curse/pilgrim, as i've said many times befour.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.05 08:55:00 - [1387] Edited by: Bentula on 05/08/2007 08:57:59 Originally by: Crash Sagramo About nosf fix again. I'm ok with a nosf fix, but not this one. It kills curse/pilgrim, as i've said many times befour. Ok, just for the sake of the argument, lets assume this change REALLY kills the curse and pilgrim and brings them to the lvl of ... lets say the bellicose. Lets also assume ccp wont buff these ships to compensate. Maybe ccp thinks its worth it? Trading 2 recons for what they percieve as the greater gamebalance. I mean this change means ALOT for entire shipclasses like the AFs, it will also bring HACs into play again since they cant rely on EW for nos protection. Just playing devils advocate here to show that even if your right, it doesnt mean that they will not still pull it through, personally i think ccp will address the curse/pilgrims problems in some way.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.05 09:19:00 - [1388] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 05/08/2007 09:21:59 Originally by: Bentula Edited by: Bentula on 05/08/2007 08:57:59 Originally by: Crash Sagramo About nosf fix again. I'm ok with a nosf fix, but not this one. It kills curse/pilgrim, as i've said many times befour. Ok, just for the sake of the argument, lets assume this change REALLY kills the curse and pilgrim and brings them to the lvl of ... lets say the bellicose. Lets also assume ccp wont buff these ships to compensate. Maybe ccp thinks its worth it? Trading 2 recons for what they percieve as the greater gamebalance. I mean this change means ALOT for entire shipclasses like the AFs, it will also bring HACs into play again since they cant rely on EW for nos protection. Just playing devils advocate here to show that even if your right, it doesnt mean that they will not still pull it through, personally i think ccp will address the curse/pilgrims problems in some way. But there is no reason to sacrifice two of Amarr's good ships. They could give Amarr recons a Neut bonus that reduces cap usage 25% per level or something similar.
Kaelen Tao	Posted - 2007.08.05 09:38:00 - [1389] The changes to the Damnation Command Ship listed here are absolutely and completely devestating to my demoralization versus enjoyment ratio in EVE. I've been playing EVE for over four years (this character is my 2nd). That's over $1000 real life US dollars of investment in EVE and CCP. I long ago saw the pattern of changing skills and bonuses to set everyone back where they have to train half a year worth of skills in order to reclaim the abilities they had before those changes took place. I've gotten used to it; expect it; anticipate it; but still loathe it. The changes proposed here though take this concept to the next level. I created this alt roughly a year and a half ago for the sole purpose of being a Damnation pilot. I'm very stingy with my money in RL but committed to two monthly account payments just so I could have a dedicated command ship pilot in my corp. Almost half of this character's career has been dedicated to Medium Lasers. He's nearly maxed on EVERY skill that can boost Medium Lasers in any way. What you're proposing changes to on the Damnation completely negates about nine months of my efforts and PAYMENTS for a second account. Here in the States we call changes that severe to a product criminal... especially after the sale has been made. These types of changes over the last four years constantly serve only to disenfranchise me from what I otherwise consider the most awesome game in all the history of mankind. The Damnation is in fact the only ship in this game I have never had a complaint about. I think you had it right... leave it alone... please! I can tell you for a fact that this ship has, on atleast one occassion, been the sole inspiration for the purchase of a second account. As game developers and a business, what more than that could you ask for from a single in-game item? Please don't waste my 9 months and $135 real dollars invested in laser skills! For me, this change would be enough cause for me to abandon my aspirations for a second account/character. Don't anybody start flaming at me for whinning, or threatening to close my account either... All I'm doing here is stating an honest to goodness, real life, business minded, observation; stating some displeasure in a product I've been a long-time supporter of; and making a request as to its continued development.
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.08.05 09:44:00 - [1390] Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 05/08/2007 09:49:30 CCP, what will you do with amar recons? Or will you fix nosf another way? Many YOU CUSTOMERS said, that they doon't like it, that this fix kills amar recon. Quote: As always, the above changes are not final and subject to change if they turn out to be overpowered or under-performing. Of course we would like to hear your feedback on the Nosferatu and Khanid changes (from Caldari pilots too). More balacing changes for Revelations 2.2 to follow. Was this only words or you'll really listen to you CUSTOMERS? Or this one reaction (post 977) will be the only one try to calm down players? I just want ot know what will you do. If you kill my favorite ship, it'll be very questional what to do. I'm just afraid to train new ship becourse it will take at about 3 month, and it could be nerfed to up to this time! CCP i Don't like this nosf changes. i spend money and i want to get pleasure from the game, not disappointment from waste of time and money.

Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.05 09:49:00 - [1391] Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is no reason to sacrifice two of Amarr's good ships. They could give Amarr recons a Neut bonus that reduces cap usage 99% or something similar. Well like i said it was a worst case "what if" scenario. Personally i think they will wait a few months to see how the curse handles and then boost it if deemed necessary. The pilgrim, bhaalgorn and ashimmu i expect getting changed rather soonish. The domi i doubt will get changed, cause that one works fine with blasters. But thats just my take on this, personally i think nerfing and boosting at the same time doesnt work out to well. Rather have a ship be underpowered a few months and see how the people adapt to keep using it, then you can boost it in the role people have adapted to use it in.
William DeMeo Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.05 10:08:00 - [1392] Originally by: Fager Originally by: William DeMeo Nos isn't overpowered. It's neuts that need a buff. Why don't people fit HAM's instead of regular heavy missiles? Nos is fine, neuts needs to get buffed. PPL dont fit HAMs couse there are no missile ship fast enough to use em. Tell me what kinds of buff to NEUTs would make them balanced. I mean why use rack of NEUTs when a RACK of NOS gives you the same effect just abit slower, but at a astronomical lower cost and even some more gains? Youd have to boost neutralizers to the skies to match the NOS, wich proves its worth and power. Also the ships that can use full racks of EW are most usually the ships who got an alternative source of dmg, drones. To boost Neuts and keep NOS will lead to a boost the ships who can most efficiently use these modules. Ah well, i can see the logic in this change, and if CCP keeps its records that once its on the test server itll hit Tranq itll all be fine. Hopefully with some few changes to some ships and perhaps tweaks to NEUTs and NOS in some way. I feel like im only repeating myself now, CCP has deemed NOS overpowered, a FIX is comming and i believe the option they choosed has been reasonable and above most other options. Arguments against it that has serious value is the curse/pilgrim. As for the khanid ships i dunno, ppl whining about training more skills dont get my sympathy thou and im loving the new sacrilage. Finally a missile boat that armor tanks and got the speed for HAMs. R.I.P Cerberus. NOSdomi pilots who feels there ship could be kill by some tactics and was balanced can keep crying, they cant convince me and many others and i cant convince them. I feel for the curse/pilgrim pilots thou. Neuts drain the user out of cap too fast while not actually dealing much damage to the targets. It's like having guns that do damage to yourself and your target. They need a serious reduction in cap use. Yarr
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.05 10:16:00 - [1393] Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is no reason to sacrifice two of Amarr's good ships. They could give Amarr recons a Neut bonus that reduces cap usage 99% or something similar. By using such rediculous numbers the only thing you are doing is making it less likely for them to be changes...
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.05 10:30:00 - [1394] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is no reason to sacrifice two of Amarr's good ships. They could give Amarr recons a Neut bonus that reduces cap usage 99% or something similar. By using such rediculous numbers the only thing you are doing is making it less likely for them to be changes... Actually I'm not. That setup is not so far-fetched if you think about it.
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.05 12:01:00 - [1395] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is no reason to sacrifice two of Amarr's good ships. They could give Amarr recons a Neut bonus that reduces cap usage 99% or something similar. Well like i said it was a worst case "what if" scenario. Personally i think they will wait a few months to see how the curse handles and then boost it if deemed necessary. The pilgrim, bhaalgorn and ashimmu i expect getting changed rather soonish. The domi i doubt will get changed, cause that one works fine with blasters. But thats just my take on this, personally i think nerfing and boosting at the same time doesnt work out to well. Rather have a ship be underpowered a few months and see how the people adapt to keep using it, then you can boost it in the role people have adapted to use it in. Yea lets nerf your favourite ships to a point of being useless for a two months and see how you like to "adapt". I don't see any good use for a Curse of Pilgrim if this nerf is going to happen, so I'm not even going to try. Hopefully these khanid changes will happen so that I didn't waste 23 days for nothing when I trained Amarr cruiser to lvl5.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.05 12:15:00 - [1396] Originally by: LvxOccvlta Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: LvxOccvlta But there is no reason to sacrifice two of Amarr's good ships. They could give Amarr recons a Neut bonus that reduces cap usage 99% or something similar. By using such rediculous numbers the only thing you are doing is making it less likely for them to be changes... Actually I'm not. That setup is not so far-fetched if you think about it. A single neut needs after skills 9.4 cap/sec. This is about the curses/pilgrims own peak recharge. With your "suggestion" 5 neuts would need 0.5 cap/sec which is essentially = nothing. Amarr recons are specialized cap warfare ships, yes. However there is a very definite line between "specialized" and "rediciously overpowered" and that suggestion is even beyond the latter thing. As a dev that suggestion alone would lead me to skip all posts by you because you seem to have no sense of propotion at all.
speedcat Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.08.05 12:43:00 - [1397] Fager... what the hell is going on? Respect for posting a lot these days on this topic, respect for reading all postings and give answers to almost any constructive critic. But I don't get it... why can't you understand that other pilots from other races accepted for a long time that there is a misuse of the Dominix and that this should be nerfed but not the way CCP like it. People have better ideas, most of them cover all of CCP Fehndal's requirements. Maybe also the requirements are bad. Why there are other people not getting it... I mean**er... you did PvP as I saw on your killboard. Mostly with a Caracal and T1-Fitting... if not, then you were in a Scorpion with T2-Fitting as a support. Can't you understand that there are a few more ships in EvE which are messed up with their fittings than your's and the Dominix, maybe Curse/Pilgrim. The NOS change is BAD (CCP Method)... and it's crystal clear to almost everyone expect of you and CCP. Go for SIGRAD-NOS-CHANGE is all I can tell !!!** At least you are quite polite in your postings. br speed
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.08.05 12:55:00 - [1398] Post-NOS nerf Curse setup: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=570009
Judician Nar	Posted - 2007.08.05 12:59:00 - [1399] Edited by: Judician Nar on 05/08/2007 13:02:52 Anyone who's just whingeing about this 'huge NOS nerf' without actually paying attention to the statistical and tactical discussions behind these changes should either: a) if you have nothing constructive to offer then stfu - things change get used to it b) read this http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=566794&page=2 and get involved in suggesting better changes With so many useless comments in these threads I really hope CCP see and take note of the useful and constructive suggestions. [edit: added active http link for convenience]
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 13:45:00 - [1400] Edited by:**er on 05/08/2007 13:48:16 Edited by:**er on 05/08/2007 13:47:42 Originally by: speedcat Fager... what the hell is going on? Respect for posting a lot these days on this topic, respect for reading all postings and give answers to almost any constructive critic. But I don't get it... why can't you understand that other pilots from other races accepted for a long time that there is a misuse of the Dominix and that this should be nerfed but not the way CCP like it. People have better ideas, most of them cover all of CCP Fehndal's requirements. Maybe also the requirements are bad. Why there are other people not getting it... I mean**er... you did PvP as I saw on your killboard. Mostly with a Caracal and T1-Fitting... if not, then you were in a Scorpion with T2-Fitting as a support. Can't you understand that there are a few more ships in EvE which are messed up with their fittings than your's and the Dominix, maybe Curse/Pilgrim. The NOS change is BAD (CCP Method)... and it's crystal clear to almost everyone expect of you and CCP. Go for SIGRAD-NOS-CHANGE is all I can tell !!!** At least you are quite polite in your postings. br speed Actually here is another soultion that extreemly good imo, it doesnt solve exactely all problems lists but its dam close, and i also think it nerf pilgrim/curse but just not that hard as CCPs idea. Its pretty cool idea actually. Click Me I still havent seen an idea that fix NEUT vs NOS and balances Droneboats yet thou, except from CCPs choise of idea and also from hardpoints for NOS (wich btw i commented on before, but also stating the issue of having to balance each ship for their new slotlayout comsared to other tiers). NOSboats and NOS balanced are 2 major concerns for many players that has brought up these problems in eve to CCP. And i still vote for theirs since it has many PROs(CAPwarefare harder for droneships, NEUTs a cool option vs NOS, Smaller ships safer and able to tackle more, 2 totally different areas of use between NOS and NEUTs and so on i have rambled for many pages about this here) and some serious drawbacks to some ships like curse/pilgrim (bloodraiders, Cerberus, some one had arguments for smaller ships NOS, heck DOMI might need a boost after this, Damnation) wich i have also agrees should need looking into for this patch ;) I also like to say respect for you arguing back without the namecalling and with constructive posts. I try to argue with facts and ideas and avoid namecalling myselfs, im not IN CAOD after all heh ;) p.s please link to SIGRAD-NOS-CHANGE, i have probably read it but would be nice to see witch it is you prefer. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.05 14:01:00 - [1401] ah i see still nothing from any of the "experts" on how any amarr ship benefits from this change. apart from having to run lower cap (no repair or shooting) than a target (who doesn't need cap to do anything but scram) just checking. will go back to lurking. hint ladies and gents: forget all the focus on the pilgrim/curse (just understand that they are completely broken by this change). start examining your other ship setups and see what a difference it makes. in quickfit or whatever, do a cap simulation on your standard zealot, prophecy, absolution, maller, harbringer, arbitrator, whatever. do it without the nos (and without anything else in the slot apart from a. empty or b. neut) - try to find a fitting that works - i cant. simulate yourself against a minmatar ship. then do a combat simulation and see how the damages, resists, times stack up. if your results come out like mine, you'll apply for the beta to another game like i have. it always bothers me when u have minmatar and gallente pilots telling us "no amarr is not broken by these changes". it also worries me when someone says everythings fine but they haven't even droppend amarr cruiser 5 yet. and like i'm going to believe the developer who promises that obviously something will have to be done to the curse/pilgrim on the back of these changes when these changes, plus then ean2 debarkle, were supposed to be buffs for our race in the first place.....for 2 big changes (ean2 and nos) that are marketed at buffs for amarr they smell mightly like nerfs for nos domis/myrmies that just happens to break amarr worse. //sometimes less is more...zero
Long Fang Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.08.05 15:18:00 - [1402] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Long Fang Originally by: Shadowsword A standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets Except now it can't fill its role as its not getting any boost to its NOS which is the entire point of the ship. As an EW boat it is only effective against turrets which many ships don't use, as an EW platform it is surpassed by both the Arazu and Rook which can effect ALL ships. If you read really close and carefully, you'll see the bonus is to both NOS and NEUTs... not just NOS... and, last time I looked, NEUTs work against ALL ships. No i didn;t notice anything that blindingly obvious The point is with NOS the curse can damage its enemies and tank, with neut's this is not the case. As far as working against all ships if you read really close and carefully you'll see that that comment was directly related to ew, and specifically how the curse is not an effective EW boat as it has a limited set of targets that it is effective against.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 15:24:00 - [1403] Originally by: zero2espect ah i see still nothing from any of the "experts" on how any amarr ship benefits from this change. apart from having to run lower cap (no repair or shooting) than a target (who doesn't need cap to do anything but scram) just checking. will go back to lurking. hint ladies and gents: forget all the focus on the pilgrim/curse (just understand that they are completely broken by this change). start examining your other ship setups and see what a difference it makes. in quickfit or whatever, do a cap simulation on your standard zealot, prophecy, absolution, maller, harbringer, arbitrator, whatever. do it without the nos (and without anything else in the slot apart from a. empty or b. neut) - try to find a fitting that works - i cant. simulate yourself against a minmatar ship. then do a combat simulation and see how the damages, resists, times stack up. if your results come out like mine, you'll apply for the beta to another game like i have. it always bothers me when u have minmatar and gallente pilots telling us "no amarr is not broken by these changes". it also worries me when someone says everythings fine but they haven't even droppend amarr cruiser 5 yet. and like i'm going to believe the developer who promises that obviously something will have to be done to the curse/pilgrim on the back of these changes when these changes, plus then ean2 debarkle, were supposed to be buffs for our race in the first place.....for 2 big changes (ean2 and nos) that are marketed at buffs for amarr they smell mightly like nerfs for nos domis/myrmies that just happens to break amarr worse. Do you agree that the NOS was used better against amarr then for it? Then with these changes NOS as a wpn against Amarr will be severly reduced to ashes. NOS for amarr is also reduced but will still work in many cases to help you keep cap up at cost of your enemy. Also Amarr doesnt have to worry about NEUTs as much as NOS since they are not as powerful and FIT best on amarr ships. Capless wpns and tanks had an advantage against NOS before, and will still have that. However you can nos a passivtanker since hes not wasting cap you can use it to some advantage instead and perhaps kill his recharge 30% wich in the hardcore passive tanks isnt hard and if he has active hardeners wich most does hell have less resist after awhile. Im not trying to say this is the amarr buff, but when ppl come in and say this will hurt Amarr more then others i believe they are wrong. Perhaps the experst you speak of can correct me if im wrong, im sure am no expert. Didnt CCP say that this wasnt the LASER or Amarr fix? i also though amarr wouldnt get a single patch to improve them but they would try to boost em abit at the time? Im just using my common sense here wich tells me Amarr isnt getting the short stick with the new NOS, sure there NOS doesnt work 100% for them anymore (althou still more often then others if they are so CAP hungry) but it wont for your enemie either, and some of the enemies ship will have severly reduced effect now (droneboats) and your CAP will be safer. (excluding the curse/pilgrim here ppl since where talking about the general amarr fleet. I dont have much to add to curse/pilgrim. I believe most have proved alot that its getting the short stick). Im probably have missed something and if i have that argues that amarr fleet actually hurts from the NOS above others then please enlighten me. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:17:00 - [1404] Its not a bad change, but the pilgrim/curse need a role change now. The curse/pilgrim is now completely useless with these changes. If another ship cant be shut down by a pilgrim that its just an expensive toy thats going to die everytime to a battleship or anything else.
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:20:00 - [1405] Also, please dont force ships to be close range. Especially speed ships like the malediction and heretic. Nobody is stupid enough to come close with ceptors/interdictors. I dont know which person thought that up, but when you think about it, its REALLY stupid.
Argen Tano	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:21:00 - [1406] Edited by: Argen Tano on 05/08/2007 17:22:06 You're right. Amarr isn't hurt more than others. Except for the fact that we _have_ to use nos and/or cap injectors (wich takes away a mid slot, from the race with the fewest mid slots) to compensate for broken lasers. And many amarr ships have a spare hi-slot. What would you have us put in that slot now? Neut? Not realy an option, due to obvious cap problems from broken lasers. Smartbomb? Same issue, cap cap cap. So continue with the NOS you say? Seeing as we're always so low on cap, they should work right? Wrong! Defeating an amarr ship will be as simple as draining your own cap to a point (20-30%?), either using a neut yourself, or simply leave your reppers/boosters on. Only race that will have some difficulties with this, is galante. But at 0 cap, they're still better of than amarr, because of drones. And this is not even adding the obvious, that it's complety ruining the curse, pilgrim and bhaal. In all honesty. If this change is to go through. I think all amarr ships should be given an extra mid-slot, and the pg/cpu of a cap injector. Our ships may aswel come with the cap injector equipped right of market. Can we have some more cargo space aswel then please?
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:38:00 - [1407] Originally by: Argen Tano Edited by: Argen Tano on 05/08/2007 17:22:06 You're right. Amarr isn't hurt more than others. Except for the fact that we _have_ to use nos and/or cap injectors (wich takes away a mid slot, from the race with the fewest mid slots) to compensate for broken lasers. And many amarr ships have a spare hi-slot. What would you have us put in that slot now? Neut? Not realy an option, due to obvious cap problems from broken lasers. Smartbomb? Same issue, cap cap cap. So continue with the NOS you say? Seeing as we're always so low on cap, they should work right? Wrong! Defeating an amarr ship will be as simple as draining your own cap to a point (20-30%?), either using a neut yourself, or simply leave your reppers/boosters on. Only race that will have some difficulties with this, is galante. But at 0 cap, they're still better of than amarr, because of drones. And this is not even adding the obvious, that it's complety ruining the curse, pilgrim and bhaal. In all honesty. If this change is to go through. I think all amarr ships should be given an extra mid-slot, and the pg/cpu of a cap injector. Our ships may aswel come with the cap injector equipped right of market. Can we have some more cargo space aswel then please? Now you said a amarr ship HAS to have a nos and it also often have a slot for it. Good. Now not many ships can put on Neutralizers with guns as they do with NOS today. Not all ship, in fact very few can waste cap and function good without it. Leave reppers and Booster on you say.. well good grief what should the ship do when its under 30% or lower.. it wont be able to tank **** anymore.. and what did it gain.. the amarr ship 1 or 2 nos doesnt work for it while you lost your whole tank? I see the theory but do you really think there is a ship out there that would GAIN by killing its cap to make sure 1-2 NOS on its enemy ship doesnt work? Ok so say there are ships that can effectively do this (i assume a shield tanked something has good proporties for it) Its not like hell automaticly win the figth with this daring tactic... I mean you still have your Cap and Cap recharge while he lost his to continue for probably far longer then he can tank with what he got left. If a ships drain itself to under 30% your laser DPS even without the 1-2 nos running will cut him to pieces since he cant tank at all with no cap to use and no cap regen to speak of. So it doesnt make amarr ships allpowerful, still they get advantages. And they dont have to worry about their NOS being outdone by 4-5racked NOS and stipet to parts by each and every NOSpilot. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Icarus Starkiller Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:38:00 - [1408] Originally by: CCP Fendahl Anathema (Covert Ops) Hardpoints: 2 launchers (+1), 1 turret (-1) Seriously? Why? I don't understand for the life of me why any of the cov-ops frigates get any weapons bonuses at all? You look at it... 2 high slots, and 2 primary high slot items required to even make a cov ops worth flying (anyone who fits 2 weapons is just asking to loose it almost instantly to pretty much anything with a Civilian gun or larger) those being your cloak and your scan/recon probe launcher. If these frail little mayflies were ever expected to use a gun/drone/missile then they'd be, well, NOT covert ops, they'd be recon frigs. CCP, why not use a little common sense and remove the weapon bonuses & hardpoints on these things... or add 3 hardpoints per each race's design and make them capable of doing more than sitting there watching/FRAPSing? Tackle? Yeah, they can be used for that (i've used 'em that way)... so put the bonuses there, not to their unused high slots. - Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:40:00 - [1409] Originally by: IamBen Also, please dont force ships to be close range. Especially speed ships like the malediction and heretic. Nobody is stupid enough to come close with ceptors/interdictors. I dont know which person thought that up, but when you think about it, its REALLY stupid. Agree. every speedtank pilot try to be outer webrange. Force them to be under webrange is almost so stupid as the nosnerf for the amarr recons. Good work again :(
I SoStoned	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:49:00 - [1410] Originally by: IamBen Also, please dont force ships to be close range. Especially speed ships like the malediction and heretic. Nobody is stupid enough to come close with ceptors/interdictors. I dont know which person thought that up, but when you think about it, its REALLY stupid. Heretic now becomes a slow Flycatcher with a tank, and since a good pilot in a Flycatcher using rockets can tap someone out to 40+km with javelins, 16+ with rage, & 12+ with standard rockets I'd hardly call that 'close' range. Add in a few rigs & implants and those numbers can increase amazingly, but not outside the cone of 'typical' engagements (60+/javelin). And this is with rockets. Imagine what light missiles can do.

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:22:00 - [1411] Edited by:**er on 05/08/2007 18:24:15 Originally by: IamBen Also, please dont force ships to be close range. Especially speed ships like the malediction and heretic. Nobody is stupid enough to come close with ceptors/interdictors. I dont know which person thought that up, but when you think about it, its REALLY stupid. well... The sacri doesnt look like its meant for speed tank. Its meant for armor tank closerange. Think of it as a blasterboat with better tank and lesser dmg? If you want longrange bonus to it, its gonna be 5% to heavy missile EM dmg, instead of 5% All HAM missile dmg. would you trade those bonuses? I mean you can fit long range missies on it and shoot therm/kin/expl almost as good as if you decide to give it a long range bonus... If it got reduced dmg bonus but the bonus given to all Heavy missies you still got the fact that fitting Heavy missiles on this will be very hard anyway, so all youll be really doing is gimping its closerange ability as a blaster-missie-boat and hardly increasing its range capabilities anyway... Just a thought.. This is ofcourse only about the Sacri. I dont want to say to much about the smaller ships couse frankly i dont have much of a clue about em, i just enjoy flying fast sometimes. But not everyone and there mother will be fitting NEUTs and NOS wont stop small ships anymore. Not everyone has midslots to fit Webs.. especially ships that want to stick out of webrange or even scram range. And since everyone knows that inties will be outside web they dont fit it to counter it even when they in some extreem cases do have a midslot over... But there are probably still to many webs out there that its still a major worry.. Well since every singel interceptor fears the webrange so much i accept, since i know not better, that it is true and it is 100% riddiculus. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
MirrorGod Heretic Army	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:25:00 - [1412] Edited by: MirrorGod on 05/08/2007 18:25:25 It's nice on paper but unless Nos is stlill broken on the test server, it's absolutely FUBAR in application. Made of fail and sadness. Make it stop. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh ([email protected])
Zorok Tactical Precision	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:07:00 - [1413] It would be nice if a CCP rep could at least comment on all these feedback we have given. I would like to know that they realize that this change has concerned a great deal of the Eve community at this point- more so than any other proposed change in the past. At the time of this writing, we're already up to 50 pages of comments. I have one more idea about the NOS- one that will make it a valuable tool throughout a battle. How about instead of the NOS ceasing to function when both ships caps are equal, the NOS goes into a reduced function mode where it can only drain half of the energy it could before until the defender's cap rises above that of the attacker. The beauty of this is that ships like the Curse that get bonuses to this module won't suffer and ships that don't have bonuses won't be able to NOS the opponent to death. But they will still be able to pull cap to at least add some power to their ship. Anyone else like this idea? -Zorok
Duhmad IbnRa Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:34:00 - [1414] could work as well... but then, any idea is better than what CCP has in mind.... _________________________________________________ For more players and action in lowsec
Zorok Tactical Precision	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:38:00 - [1415] hahah agreed!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:53:00 - [1416] Originally by: Zorok It would be nice if a CCP rep could at least comment on all these feedback we have given. I would like to know that they realize that this change has concerned a great deal of the Eve community at this point- more so than any other proposed change in the past. At the time of this writing, we're already up to 50 pages of comments. They did answer, look posts 970 or so. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Zorok Tactical Precision	Posted - 2007.08.05 21:45:00 - [1417] Ahh yes thank you. It appears the devs are adamant about forcing these changes on the community. They don't appear swayed by the outcry. I see the one difference in what I believed about how the nos would work under their proposal is that the nos approaches diminishing gains as you and the nosed target approach the same cap % which is worse than I thought. If they want to use diminishing gains then they shouldn't base it on the nosing ships cap. They could make diminishing gains come into effect as you drain them down to 0 cap but make it so that even a battleship with 5 large nos couldn't suck more than 80% of a small ships cap. I'm afraid that the nos won't even work defensively if they implement this idea. The problem is that ships that lack space in their mid slots that relied on the high slots for power will now be at a disadvantage. These changes will only make Minmatar and Caldari the flavor of the day.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.05 22:05:00 - [1418] Wall of text 2-3 paragraphs make it far easier to read.
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2007.08.05 22:36:00 - [1419] Fix the Impel please? More resists or cap bonii, the repair rate ones aren't very good.
xaja	Posted - 2007.08.06 01:07:00 - [1420] Khanid ships: I don't mind missile skills, as Amarr, I was forced early on to train everything but Amarr ships to be able to play effectively... At the very least, CCP, if you change existing ships to where suddenly they use an entirely different weapon system: do some SQL command that detects laser related rigs, like energy collision rigs etc, remove them from Khanid ships at patch time and place them in people's hangars! or convert them in the missile equivalent... adapting to changes is one thing... loosing your stuff is another: rigs are too much effort and isk to get, to just have them ripped off. ... _____________________________________ I'm Paper; Rock's fine, nerf Scissors

galphi	Posted - 2007.08.06 01:37:00 - [1421] The Heretic is really improved by these changes. The rocket barrage is freaking deadly, and the range and explosion speed boosts are very useful too. At first I thought the lack of the 25% armour resist bonus might hurt it up close, but it actually doesn't need it with all that speed. Nine thumbs up!
Kamel Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.06 01:59:00 - [1422] Been playing eve since retail, my char had been fully trained to use amarr ships and now sudently i will find out what i cant fly half of the amarr ships T2. I cant realy understand why a race what is focused using lasers can have so much ships swiched to use only misiles. The sacrilege was a such good ship like it was, why now cant have any turret on, what about the ppl who trained the M spec lasers skills at 5? In my opinion is just because so many eve players have trained to play caldari ships and CCP is giving them a chance to fly a diferent race ships by keeping their misile skills on it. I would like to see what would happend if a couple of caldari T2 ships would been swiched to full turret spec instead of misile. Prety sure the comunity wouldnt find that changes so lovely.
YetAnotherTradeAlt	Posted - 2007.08.06 02:32:00 - [1423] I am gonna get flamed for this. . . Which is why I'm alt posting. Here's an idea, redo the Pilgrim entirely, changing its focus from nos/neut to TDs. leave its T1 bonuses as they are but give it a T2 bonus of the cloak fitting and 25% to TD optimal per level. Up its max lock range etc. of course. Max skills with Balmers nets you a range of 481.252.5=135km, plus falloff of 30km. Now, add two T1 ECM range rigs and you've got an optimal of 194.4km T2 ECM rigs, 210.9km. 70% penalty to optimal will really ruin a sniper BS' day, and rigged you're well in range of Megas, Hyperions, Tempests, Maelstroms, Abaddons, Apocs, and Armageddons. Falloff gives you some chance of even getting one of those 250km Rokhs. The 180km snipers go to about 60km and the 250km Rokh to 75, assuming your TD takes. It loses almost all solo ability, but it becomes equal to the Rook if not surpassing it in a fleet warfare role.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.06 03:22:00 - [1424] Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 06/08/2007 03:24:17 Alright, I assume people have run the numbers themselves, but no ones posted em here. Max DPS for the New and Old Sac Assumes all skills maxed, 1 Damage Mod, and T2 gear. Drones are not included, as they are the same on both. Old Sac 4x Heavy Pulse II, 2x HAML II, 1 Heat Sink II, using Conflagration M and Rage HAMs DM for HPII: 3.6(Base)1.25 (HAC V)1.25 (M Laser Turret V)1.15 (Surgical V)1.1 (Pulse Spec V)1.1 (Heat Sink II) = 7.827 RoF for HPII: 5.25 0.9 (Guns V) * 0.8(Rapid V) * 0.895(HSII) = 3.3831 DPS for all 4 HPIIs: 259.1 DPS, Alpha of 876 HAML II Damage per Rage HAM: 120(Base) * 1.25(HAM V) 1.1 (Warhead Upgrades V) = 165 RoF: 6.4(Base) 0.9(ML Ops V) * 0.85(Rapid V) 0.9(HAM Spec V) = 4.896 2x HAM DPS: 67.4, Alpha of 330 Total DPS (Old): 326.5 DPS Total Alpha (Old): 1,206 New Sac 5x HAML II, 1x BCU II, Rage HAM Damage per Rage HAM: 120 1.25(HAM V) * 1.1(Warhead Upgrades V) * 1.25 (Cruiser V) * 1.1 (BCU II) = 226.9 RoF 6.4 * 0.9 (ML Ops V) * 0.85 (Rapid V) * 0.895 (BCU II) * 0.9 (HAM Spec V) * 0.75 (HAC V) = 2.958 seconds DPS from 5 HAM II w/ Rage: 383.5 DPS Alpha: 1134.4 DPS from 5 HAM II w/ Navy HAMs: 367.5 DPS, Alpha: 1087.1 Not bad for a 'nerf' eh? Gains 15% more DPS and damage types switchable on demand, but loses a lot of range. Still, HAMs have better range than cruiser blasters with skills, assuming they aren't using Null. Now, add 50% its cargohold to allow for more HAM spammage. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.08.06 04:03:00 - [1425] Edited by: Phaedruss on 06/08/2007 04:07:12 Originally by: galphi Malediction is a great little inty now, tough as nails! Not sure about having to get in webifier range to actually deal damage though. Still, it survives close encounters better than others. Giving the malediction a missile system focus, or at least moving away from the split system was a good move, but I think you'll find the malediction will be utterly broken with the new changes. The rocket damage is all well and good but you can't damage what you can't hit. It's not just the range issue with it, the lack of a missile velocity bonus is crippling to a ship pretty much limited to rockets.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.08.06 07:33:00 - [1426] Originally by: Kamel Been playing eve since retail, my char had been fully trained to use amarr ships and now sudently i will find out what i cant fly half of the amarr ships T2. I cant realy understand why a race what is focused using lasers can have so much ships swiched to use only misiles. The sacrilege was a such good ship like it was, why now cant have any turret on, what about the ppl who trained the M spec lasers skills at 5? In my opinion is just because so many eve players have trained to play caldari ships and CCP is giving them a chance to fly a diferent race ships by keeping their misile skills on it. I would like to see what would happend if a couple of caldari T2 ships would been swiched to full turret spec instead of misile. Prety sure the comunity wouldnt find that changes so lovely. signed.. And that would never happen as probably CCP are mostly Caldari.. The whole khanid sucks big time.. Just redo the freaking backstory.. ->My Vids<-
DUFFMANX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.06 07:41:00 - [1427] Vengence : Nice change no more needs to be done here, tight fitting wise but good weapon system layout. Sacrilidge : Again nice changes makes a big difference wit 1 weapon system. Anathema\Heretic : Anathema didnt really need change but is good anyways\Heretic can acyually do some decent damage now. Damnation : Tbh as an amarr player i believe this needs to loose 1 low and get an extra missile hardpoint and + 25 cpu. With the current changes its tank is still great but damage sucks compared to eos\claymore and vulture. Adding another missile hardpoint and removing a low will balance between uber gank + tank (limiting bcu slots) Malediction : Tbh i think this poor ceptor got shafted. Close range weapon sysem wit paper thin armor, i would propose that the utility highslot be removed and a low slot added with -9pg and -17 cpu. This will make it more balanced i believe and make people think bout new interesting ceptor setups. Originally by: dimensionZ The biggest threat we ever had was xirtam mining plagioclase in aridia ...
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 08:16:00 - [1428] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Not bad for a 'nerf' eh? Gains 15% more DPS and damage types switchable on demand, but loses a lot of range. Still, HAMs have better range than cruiser blasters with skills, assuming they aren't using Null. You gain range actually. With conflag you'll have an optimal of 11.25 which is about the same as the max rage HAM range (although you are there in the end better off using navy ammo, the cap recharge penality is not worth the extra dps), with scorch you'll have an 33.75k optimal while jav HAMs reach till 60k. Also, you do not need any cap to do this dps and get on top of that a cap recharge bonus from the ship. Rage HAMs reduce this, but even with those you'll still have with the capuse bonus 85% of the current caprecharge. And I doubt that 4 HP2 will use only 15% of that.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.06 08:21:00 - [1429] Originally by: DUFFMANX Malediction : Tbh i think this poor ceptor got shafted. Close range weapon sysem wit paper thin armor, i would propose that the utility highslot be removed and a low slot added with -9pg and -17 cpu. This will make it more balanced i believe and make people think bout new interesting ceptor setups. Just a question, but what non close range weapons has the Malediction ever fit? I'm still stoked about the Malediction 2.0, even after a week to mull it over. I cant even force myself to play on TQ, even with my skills being a month behind I prefer my SiSi setup.
DUFFMANX Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.06 08:35:00 - [1430] Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: DUFFMANX Malediction : Tbh i think this poor ceptor got shafted. Close range weapon sysem wit paper thin armor, i would propose that the utility highslot be removed and a low slot added with -9pg and -17 cpu. This will make it more balanced i believe and make people think bout new interesting ceptor setups. Just a question, but what non close range weapons has the Malediction ever fit? I'm still stoked about the Malediction 2.0, even after a week to mull it over. I cant even force myself to play on TQ, even with my skills being a month behind I prefer my SiSi setup. Personally i used to fly around using speed setup wit dual light beams and 1 point for range for tackle. Thats the most u could honestly get from it now with the upcoming changes u can either go with the bonus and fit rockets or u can fit standard launchers. If u use standards obviously u dont get the 5% bonus to rockets but u get a nice long range missile spamming ceptor almost comparable to the crow. On the other hand if u use rockets u get awesoime close range dps but at close range 1 web and ur pretty much toast. The idea of removing the utility highslot and adding a low means u can still vary between close or long range weaponary. But if u decide on sticking on cose range for the added bonus the low slots will give u a bit more o play with in terms or more armor or wotever u pref on that slot. Example : 3 rl2, mwd2, web, scram, small rep, 200mm plate, adaptive nano plating, 2 overdrives or 1 od and 1 nano Originally by: dimensionZ The biggest threat we ever had was xirtam mining plagioclase in aridia ...

Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.06 08:59:00 - [1431] Originally by: DUFFMANX Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: DUFFMANX Malediction : Tbh i think this poor ceptor got shafted. Close range weapon sysem wit paper thin armor, i would propose that the utility highslot be removed and a low slot added with -9pg and -17 cpu. This will make it more balanced i believe and make people think bout new interesting ceptor setups. Just a question, but what non close range weapons has the Malediction ever fit? I'm still stoked about the Malediction 2.0, even after a week to mull it over. I cant even force myself to play on TQ, even with my skills being a month behind I prefer my SiSi setup. Personally i used to fly around using speed setup wit dual light beams and 1 point for range for tackle. Thats the most u could honestly get from it now with the upcoming changes u can either go with the bonus and fit rockets or u can fit standard launchers. If u use standards obviously u dont get the 5% bonus to rockets but u get a nice long range missile spamming ceptor almost comparable to the crow. On the other hand if u use rockets u get awesoime close range dps but at close range 1 web and ur pretty much toast. The idea of removing the utility highslot and adding a low means u can still vary between close or long range weaponary. But if u decide on sticking on cose range for the added bonus the low slots will give u a bit more o play with in terms or more armor or wotever u pref on that slot. Example : 3 rl2, mwd2, web, scram, small rep, 200mm plate, adaptive nano plating, 2 overdrives or 1 od and 1 nano Reasonable, I definitely wouldnt argue against a 4th lowslot. I was just curious about the range comment because the 'sader has always had that niche' pretty much locked down. With the resist bonus and the rocket focus I'm not really afraid of web range like most people seem to be. 3x rocket II's - and if i can find the fitting for it a small nos mwd/web/scram DCII(or ENAM2 depending on skills)/ODII(or nano if not using polycarbons)/200mm RT(Credit to Cmdr Sy) 2x Polycarbon rigs(optional) Super cheap sans rigs. Goes 4.7km/s without them, 6.3 with. Which is plenty fast for tackling, and even for catching non faction/snake ints(which we have the sader for). If I suddenly got an extra low, sweet. Regardless, and I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with my spec, I think the new 'diction is concentrated win painted green.
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.06 09:40:00 - [1432] Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 06/08/2007 09:41:52 I've got an idea on fixing the curse...and the pilgrim... If this proposed Nos nerf goes online, you should give the curse and pilgrim a NEGATIVE cap-usage bonus for Energy Neutralizers, which would replenish their caps instead of drawing cap away.
ViolenTUK	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:27:00 - [1433] The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu. www.eve-players.com
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:13:00 - [1434] Originally by: ViolenTUK The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu. Exactly. NOS was not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for nos and thats good so. The problem was drone boats. that was needed to fix, and they need still a fix.
Sasaki Dita	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:35:00 - [1435] Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34 This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed.
silken mouth	Posted - 2007.08.06 15:12:00 - [1436] instead of a dump nos nerf, they should make something up to counter makros and farmers.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.08.06 15:12:00 - [1437] Edited by: Bentula on 06/08/2007 15:12:57 Training for the malediction atm(and vengeance ofc), finally a ceptor i like. Yes its true, if you get into webrange you might get into trouble. But you dont HAVE to fly in webrange, in 90% of non solo situations it would suffice to get a point on a target. I just like to have the option to get a web on people, like when i see the hostile hasnt locked me yet. Vengeance i basicly want to fly because it will be my first frigate sized ship that can run disruptor, weapons, mwd AND some sort of tank/gank setup. Also rockets, even without a velocity bonus, will spell certain death to any ceptor that gets into MY webrange(malediction now, dotn really expect ceptors being dense enough to get close to a vengeance ). Malediction is a do or die kind of ship now, i like it . P.S. The khanid ships all have improved shields and weaker armor compared to normal amarr ships. Now that they are clearly armortankers can we get some more armor hp and less shield hp?
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.06 17:22:00 - [1438] Originally by: ViolenTUK The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu. /signed. Nosferatu weren't overpowered, they were just a must-have module with practically no downsides and select ships using a full rack of them were pretty much invincible 1v1. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.08.06 18:35:00 - [1439] Both look awesome,especially the khanid one,bravo \o/. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.06 19:46:00 - [1440] Originally by: Sasaki Dita Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34 This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed. Funny... because a few posts back there's a poster that was very pleased with the changes saying they were much more for the better. Also, the Sacrilege changes seem to be really nice, unless, of course, you either have no missile skills, are too hardheaded to train missile skills, or both.

RisingDragon	Posted - 2007.08.06 19:52:00 - [1441] The Nos nerf is way to much, The currents ships which are classified as nos boats already have a penalty, its called poor DPS! Ofc nos leechs and neutralises, why on earth did you call it an energy 'VAMPIRE' if you didnt intend it to be for that purpose. Nos was the only module i feared in a 1v1 fight, it was balanced now its just useless! Even looking at neutralisers - they seriously need beefed up, i mean come on ccp, look at the best named heavy neutraliser compared to the t2 version, it takes 250mw more to fit 8 cpu more and costs you 100 more cap to use per round, it makes t2 pointless! if you want to nerf something try swinging the bat at the vagabond.
Jacknife Sanguinarius	Posted - 2007.08.06 20:54:00 - [1442] :( I primarily chose Amarr ships because I hate reloading. And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :( Maybe actually add Khanid Mk II ships? That way those that like the current Khanid ships can keep using them? But it's really frustrating since I've been slowly working my way up to a Damnation and now that idea is blown. I can either switch to missles, and try not to get too mad about my wasted gunnery skills, or just give up my dream. sniffles I can see the reasoning for missles to guns. But that's REALLY extreme for an Amarr ship type. Maybe beaf up their shields over armor more instead?
Jacknife Sanguinarius	Posted - 2007.08.06 20:54:00 - [1443] Not to mention the fact, that the Khanid ships just look cooler than regular Amarr ships.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.06 21:31:00 - [1444] Originally by: Fager But you having your old toys taken away from you... it is true if your one of thoses using the khanid changes. However i suspect the new Khanid ships are gonna see more use now, at least some of them and CCP has stated that they are looking to reowrk some of these also like Damnation. You're not going to see more Khanid ships, if fact you'll see less. They where already on the short list, I fly around in a Damnation and people say WOW that's one cool ass looking ship. The one thing people and more importantly CCP seem to forget is some Khanid ships are not designed for PVP. The Damnation being one of them. It's a support ship, like the Guardian. Although it's name sounds otherwise, this Fleet Command ship is not meant for close up firefights. I've posted all though this thread, and like the person you quoted I trained a long time to get a Damnation, and trained all it's skills to use it effectively. Now 50% of those skills are tossed out the window. I would rather be shown a new "toy" and be told "Here, you need these skills to fly it" then have my toy tossed into the shredder and be told, "Here's your new toy. Oh by the way you'll need to train for a month to use it as effectively as the one we just shredded, and you'll also need to use it differently, so get use to the new play style" This is exactly what CCP has done. And those that thing it's a buff, really haven't flown the Khanid ships. They didn't need a buff and they certainly didn't need this nerf. I would also like to remind people that these Khanid changes where suggest by a player, who probably didn't have statistical information available to CCP. He made assumptions probably due to his game style. He probably likes close in combat so of course he is going to suggest bonuses to sub 10km range setups. If I was to suggest changes to Khanid ships I'd want Sniping bonuses. For the same reason as there are no dedicated close range combat ships, I propose a Sniping setup. I'm talking 300km sniping range with low damage on a Damnation. Which is exactly what a fleet command ship should be like. 300km away from the battle, running gang mods, performing little damage but helping none the less. Heavy Tanking so when a Dread comes in and locks down and targets the Fleet Command ship can take a hit or two, before the command ship has to warp out. There is no two ways about it, Fleet Command ship should NOT be considered in the Thick of battle, it's a support ship. If you want to be in the middle dealing damage that is what the Field Command ships are meant for. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.06 22:54:00 - [1445] Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 06/08/2007 22:55:25 Originally by: Damned Force Originally by: ViolenTUK The Nosferatu didnt need to be changed at all. The balance worked on the whole. This change could remove the balance to far away from nosferatu. Exactly. NOS was not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for nos and thats good so. The problem was drone boats. that was needed to fix, and they need still a fix. Interestingly, this works with a few word substitutions for a lot of things. . . Originally by: Damned Force Exactly. WCS was not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for WCS and thats good so. Originally by: Damned Force Exactly. NanoBS were not overpowered. U was needed to offer firepower for 7 unstacking nerfed speed mods and thats good so. The problem was drone boats. that was needed to fix, and they need still a fix. Originally by: Sasaki Dita Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34 This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed. Compare ANY dictor with the Sabre and you can call that dictor worthless. Particularly the poor Eris, now that the Heretic is no longer a split weapon dictor, similar to a rocket-equipped flycatcher now. A lot of people used Eris and Heretic to let their wallets recover between their Sabres getting primaried anyway. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Drash Kammatarr German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.06 22:58:00 - [1446] Edited by: Drash Kammatarr on 06/08/2007 22:58:37 Originally by: CCP Fendahl As noted above, the ships still retain a significant advantage since they can neutralize cap more efficiently. Ships such as the curse can mitigate the Nosferatu equilibrium by spreading out the nosferatus and concentrate the neutralizers on a single target. ... WOW! Really well thought out, but do you mind if I ask: What if you are fighting only one target? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.06 23:18:00 - [1447] Originally by: LvxOccvlta Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 06/08/2007 09:41:52 I've got an idea on fixing the curse...and the pilgrim... If this proposed Nos nerf goes online, you should give the curse and pilgrim a NEGATIVE cap-usage bonus for Energy Neutralizers, which would replenish their caps instead of drawing cap away. Yeah, yeah, they weren't overpowered enough before. . . lets make them go from powerful solo ships that would beat anything BC or below 1v1 (and PvP BS with a competent Curse pilot and good fitting/skills/implants), to OMGWTFBBQ-overpowered. /sarcasm off Lvx, part of the POINT of this patch is to make cap warfare not a no-brainer. Lets see, if they GAIN cap for using neuts (I'll assume at the same rate as an old nos). . . They kill the enemy's cap even faster, twice as fast even, assuming an old full-nos fit. They become even more powerful. They continue to gain cap even after the enemy is drained to 0, as neutralizers don't rely on the enemy having cap to work. They become even more overpowered. Due to this combination of effects, the nano/neut curse becomes the new flavor of the (until CCP looks at them and takes the nerfbat to such madness). I give it either 3 days or 3 months. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is not reasonable from a balance point of view. Instead of requiring a good Curse pilot to solo a BS, ANY Curse pilot could solo a BS. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
DeadDuck Amarr Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.06 23:42:00 - [1448] Do we already know when are the changes being uploaded on Tranquility ? Thank you
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.07 00:29:00 - [1449] still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see. oh well. maybe that is a concession that actually this does not do ANYTHING for 90% of the amarr ships (apart from making them easy targets that is)... and to answer the question from before, to be honest, i'm a professional amarr pilot. all i fly is amarrian ships. apart from 3 examples i can show you where a nos-domi blew me away (me being in a heretic) and correctly - the chances are that i will not survive - but that's the risks you take in the big game, isn't it? my energy management, gunnery, armour skills are all maxxed. i have never been taken down by nos. i have died because i've had no cap left (because we need massive amounts of cap to shoot and rep with) but that's a completely different story. and guess what, this patch makes this situation worse. i am being denied the ability to use a amarrian weapon, on amarrian ships that have a slot "dedicated" for it to be fitted (because you can't fit anything else) to solve a problem that is largely amarrian in origin. if i hear one more time "just fit a neut" i think i'm going to go postal - this makes the problem worse. the same with the "but you have better cap regen" - yes that's true, becuase we have to, but it doesn't matter how fast you regen cap, you use it faster than you can make it in amarrian ships. it's just a stupid idea. all to fix a gallente imbalance issue. //sometimes less is more...zero
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.07 00:31:00 - [1450] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: LvxOccvlta Edited by: LvxOccvlta on 06/08/2007 09:41:52 I've got an idea on fixing the curse...and the pilgrim... If this proposed Nos nerf goes online, you should give the curse and pilgrim a NEGATIVE cap-usage bonus for Energy Neutralizers, which would replenish their caps instead of drawing cap away. Yeah, yeah, they weren't overpowered enough before. . . lets make them go from powerful solo ships that would beat anything BC or below 1v1 (and PvP BS with a competent Curse pilot and good fitting/skills/implants), to OMGWTFBBQ-overpowered. /sarcasm off Lvx, part of the POINT of this patch is to make cap warfare not a no-brainer. Lets see, if they GAIN cap for using neuts (I'll assume at the same rate as an old nos). . . They kill the enemy's cap even faster, twice as fast even, assuming an old full-nos fit. They become even more powerful. They continue to gain cap even after the enemy is drained to 0, as neutralizers don't rely on the enemy having cap to work. They become even more overpowered. Due to this combination of effects, the nano/neut curse becomes the new flavor of the (until CCP looks at them and takes the nerfbat to such madness). I give it either 3 days or 3 months. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is not reasonable from a balance point of view. Instead of requiring a good Curse pilot to solo a BS, ANY Curse pilot could solo a BS. Well the curse needs extra cap to function somehow, and it certainly won't get that from using the proposed Nos. Cap rechargers are also not workable because of the gimpy cargo hold. Where do you propose ships like the Curse can get the cap it needs, if Nosferatus won't do it?

MrLobster Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.07 00:31:00 - [1451] Sig radius based and stacking nurf. __________________________ My sig changes once work gets boring... yes it was a slow day today.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.07 01:28:00 - [1452] Originally by: zero2espect still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see. oh well. maybe that is a concession that actually this does not do ANYTHING for 90% of the amarr ships (apart from making them easy targets that is)... and to answer the question from before, to be honest, i'm a professional amarr pilot. all i fly is amarrian ships. apart from 3 examples i can show you where a nos-domi blew me away (me being in a heretic) and correctly - the chances are that i will not survive - but that's the risks you take in the big game, isn't it? my energy management, gunnery, armour skills are all maxxed. i have never been taken down by nos. i have died because i've had no cap left (because we need massive amounts of cap to shoot and rep with) but that's a completely different story. and guess what, this patch makes this situation worse. i am being denied the ability to use a amarrian weapon, on amarrian ships that have a slot "dedicated" for it to be fitted (because you can't fit anything else) to solve a problem that is largely amarrian in origin. if i hear one more time "just fit a neut" i think i'm going to go postal - this makes the problem worse. the same with the "but you have better cap regen" - yes that's true, becuase we have to, but it doesn't matter how fast you regen cap, you use it faster than you can make it in amarrian ships. it's just a stupid idea. all to fix a gallente imbalance issue. Do you even read my reponses? How are you being DENIED USING NOS? it works very well on your CAP hungry ships, and it works not at all on you anymore. You also dont need to fear NEUTs as much as NOS since 1 they are much harder to fit and just not the all around wpn NOS was. YOUR NOS will work against NEUTz aswell.. And i not clueless about amarr ships, my IRL mates who i have been playing with since 2004 have almost maxxed out all laser skills, Cap skills maxxed and armor skills very high. Now hes overall enjoying the NOS change(he wasnt flying the reconns thou and he said the training for them was pushed back now ;) ), have already startet thinkering with a NEUTapoc for fun. (He is the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo("Raven"-well), wich i mentioned some posts back) Im not saying this is amarr buff, but comments like "im being denied using NOS on my amarr ship with 0 cap now" is just so wrong, and with your experience making such comments is really strange. (You state you always run out of Cap and NOS wont help, and you said you are denied using NOS) About the "Fit a neut". Its for anti smallship, do you fire all your lasers on a small frig when none hits? No you fire the neut to get away or stop his MWD. Also i posted some ideas about a NEUTapoc before (short: 6Neuts, 2 Launchers+drones and so on) so there has been postsfrom the "fans", you just missed them. I dont know how it fits or how much cap it will have in spare after draining. However my Amarrpilot friend is optimistic about it if he can make a good fit. (General idea is as somewhat solomobile ala NOSdomi MK2 or in gang absolutley destroying one ships Cap and Cap recharge while still maintaining 30%++ and fire missies and drones for some DPS to a capless target and using spare 30%++ cap to repair). Some light numbercrunching discovered an apoc would get alot of spare %cap well over 40% after completely killing most other races cap close to 0. (With max skills and best modules ofcourse) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:19:00 - [1453] Originally by: Jacknife Sanguinarius And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :( Heh... probably the #1 reason was because they were cheaper than the non-Khanid ships and that's because they generally aren't that good... but if you're in a gang, you don't need to be the best... just able to fit some weapons, tackle, and/or EW to contribute.
Akano Caldari AoA Traders Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 - [1454] The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it). I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests !
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 - [1455] Quote: still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see. There's already a Curse Fitting Thread w.r.t. NOS changes in Ships and Modules (where it belongs) with a number of replies already.
Don Shadow Spectrum Solutions INC Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 - [1456] Originally by: Fager ..................................................... Do you even read my reponses? How are you being DENIED USING NOS? it works very well on your CAP hungry ships, and it works not at all on you anymore. You also dont need to fear NEUTs as much as NOS since 1 they are much harder to fit and just not the all around wpn NOS was. YOUR NOS will work against NEUTz aswell.. And i not clueless about amarr ships, my IRL mates who i have been playing with since 2004 have almost maxxed out all laser skills, Cap skills maxxed and armor skills very high. Now hes overall enjoying the NOS change(he wasnt flying the reconns thou and he said the training for them was pushed back now ;) ), have already startet thinkering with a NEUTapoc for fun. (He is the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo("Raven"-well), wich i mentioned some posts back) Im not saying this is amarr buff, but comments like "im being denied using NOS on my amarr ship with 0 cap now" is just so wrong, and with your experience making such comments is really strange. (You state you always run out of Cap and NOS wont help, and you said you are denied using NOS) About the "Fit a neut". Its for anti smallship, do you fire all your lasers on a small frig when none hits? No you fire the neut to get away or stop his MWD. Also i posted some ideas about a NEUTapoc before (short: 6Neuts, 2 Launchers+drones and so on) so there has been postsfrom the "fans", you just missed them. I dont know how it fits or how much cap it will have in spare after draining. However my Amarrpilot friend is optimistic about it if he can make a good fit. (General idea is as somewhat solomobile ala NOSdomi MK2 or in gang absolutley destroying one ships Cap and Cap recharge while still maintaining 30%++ and fire missies and drones for some DPS to a capless target and using spare 30%++ cap to repair). Some light numbercrunching discovered an apoc would get alot of spare %cap well over 40% after completely killing most other races cap close to 0. (With max skills and best modules ofcourse) 1. pls tell to your mate(the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo!!!?("Raven"-well), wich you mentioned some posts back) to let the PVE for one hour and to go try some PVP... he will learn(and you from him)that PvE and PvP are diferent things... 2. this nos nerf will add more lag to the server... 3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being raped by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"... 4. allways remember that PvP is not the same thing with doing missions... 5 CCP Fix the LAAAAGGGGG, fix the pos problems, fix the desync problems... noses are ok in this form, whay the hell you are trying to fix somthing that works fine???!
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:30:00 - [1457] Originally by: Akano The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it). I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests ! Yes... already posted a number of times and already addressed by the Dev post (they're going to look into it) some number of pages back.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.07 12:34:00 - [1458] Quote: 3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being raped by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"... So you mean you'll have to actually pick your targets instead of F1-F5, launch drones, /afk fixin a sammich, come back and loot the wreck now? I don't think many players would have a problem with that.
Don Shadow Spectrum Solutions INC Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.07 13:04:00 - [1459] Originally by: Borasao Quote: 3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being raped by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"... So you mean you'll have to actually pick your targets instead of F1-F5, launch drones, /afk fixin a sammich, come back and loot the wreck now? I don't think many players would have a problem with that. hehehe, are you sure? do you have any ideea of what bonuses the curse will have after this "nos nerf"? if the problem is the curse, whay they nerf the nos??? they can just change the recon bonuses, if is such an "unbalanced" problem; P.S. to all those " weeeeeeeeeee they are killing us, stop them!", do you know that are some items in game, like smartbombs, or fof missile...? edit: oh, i forgot they are not used in empire space...
Akano Caldari AoA Traders Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.07 13:39:00 - [1460] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Akano The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it). I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests ! Yes... already posted a number of times and already addressed by the Dev post (they're going to look into it) some number of pages back. Well ... thanks. Looks like i have missed it ! Do you know where the pilgrim's part is ?

Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.07 13:59:00 - [1461] Originally by: Akano Well ... thanks. Looks like i have missed it ! Do you know where the pilgrim's part is ? Unfortunately, no more concrete information has been given by the Devs yet other than "they're looking at it"... As a Curse/Pilgrim pilot myself, I'm curious as well. I think the faction ships (Bhaal/etc) are pretty clear to have the bonus applied to neuts as well as nos and the Curse looks to be only a little weakened (still strong and viable according to numerous Curse pilots playing around on test) so not much there. I think everyone is waiting on the Pilgrim information.
Dee Arco	Posted - 2007.08.07 14:07:00 - [1462] Originally by: RisingDragon if you want to nerf something try swinging the bat at the vagabond. YES PLEASE CCP While we have the nerf bat out can we please get some nerfing action towards the vagabond for a change its long due for a good nerfing then when your done nerfing that can we get some nerf's on Damps and Tracking disruptors.
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.08.07 14:09:00 - [1463] Originally by: Dee Arco Originally by: RisingDragon if you want to nerf something try swinging the bat at the vagabond. YES PLEASE CCP While we have the nerf bat out can we please get some nerfing action towards the vagabond for a change its long due for a good nerfing then when your done nerfing that can we get some nerf's on Damps and Tracking disruptors. The dps of a vagabond is so bad that it doesnt need nerfing. It's not the vagabond pilots fault if he can grind through your ratting bs's tank by going for the weak resists and you dont have a neutralizer fitted
Moon Beans	Posted - 2007.08.07 14:12:00 - [1464] Good idea.. can we make Damp's so that they only damp the target down to the same level as your own sensors so if you have a targeting range of 160km then you can only damp your target down to 160km that should help nerf the arazu. Then can we change the Vagabond from turrent hardpoints to rockets only so its not the one and only last 1 vs 1 pvp pwn mobile left in the game, if we nerfing all 1 vs 1 solo mobiles the vagabond is well due for a nerfing. Also can we change webs so that they can only reduce the targets speed to the same as your own speed so if your top speed is 5km/s then you can only slow your target down to 5km/s
Dee Arco	Posted - 2007.08.07 14:22:00 - [1465] maybe just turn this game into a turn based stratergy game and be done with it. at least then you will have your balance.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.07 15:19:00 - [1466] so much anger here no biggy CCP, I don't understand A.people saying you nerf everything and there is some trend somewhere... these people haven't played any other mmorpgs. B.people acting like this nerf is so huge that stupid changes should be made like damps to 160km set damp or something. even though you could do a reasonable version of that idea, where your senor strengths determine the distance that is damped, but then larger ships would have it much better off. C.people whining about the servers randomly. I think you guys are doing great. does that just make me fanboy? well I wasn't a fan boy before I started playing eve, and if I am then you must of done something to make this game seem like quality stuff before I was a fan boy. and thus it doesn't matter and the point is mute. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
Don Shadow Spectrum Solutions INC Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.07 18:29:00 - [1467] Originally by: MotherMoon so much anger here no biggy CCP, I don't understand A.people saying you nerf everything and there is some trend somewhere... these people haven't played any other mmorpgs. B.people acting like this nerf is so huge that stupid changes should be made like damps to 160km set damp or something. even though you could do a reasonable version of that idea, where your senor strengths determine the distance that is damped, but then larger ships would have it much better off. C.people whining about the servers randomly. I think you guys are doing great. does that just make me fanboy? well I wasn't a fan boy before I started playing eve, and if I am then you must of done something to make this game seem like quality stuff before I was a fan boy. and thus it doesn't matter and the point is mute. D. you don't have any ideea about what we are talking here
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:23:00 - [1468] Originally by: Don Shadow Originally by: MotherMoon so much anger here no biggy CCP, I don't understand A.people saying you nerf everything and there is some trend somewhere... these people haven't played any other mmorpgs. B.people acting like this nerf is so huge that stupid changes should be made like damps to 160km set damp or something. even though you could do a reasonable version of that idea, where your senor strengths determine the distance that is damped, but then larger ships would have it much better off. C.people whining about the servers randomly. I think you guys are doing great. does that just make me fanboy? well I wasn't a fan boy before I started playing eve, and if I am then you must of done something to make this game seem like quality stuff before I was a fan boy. and thus it doesn't matter and the point is mute. D. you don't have any ideea about what we are talking here E. Neither do you
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:30:00 - [1469] Originally by: MotherMoon so much anger here no biggy CCP, I don't understandy. Originally by: MotherMoon I think you guys are doing great. does that just make me fanboy? well I wasn't a fan boy before I started playing eve, and if I am then you must of done something to make this game seem like quality stuff before I was a fan boy. and thus it doesn't matter and the point is mute. Asslicker
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:35:00 - [1470] Originally by: zero2espect still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see. oh well. maybe that is a concession that actually this does not do ANYTHING for 90% of the amarr ships (apart from making them easy targets that is)... and to answer the question from before, to be honest, i'm a professional amarr pilot. all i fly is amarrian ships. apart from 3 examples i can show you where a nos-domi blew me away (me being in a heretic) and correctly - the chances are that i will not survive - but that's the risks you take in the big game, isn't it? my energy management, gunnery, armour skills are all maxxed. i have never been taken down by nos. i have died because i've had no cap left (because we need massive amounts of cap to shoot and rep with) but that's a completely different story. and guess what, this patch makes this situation worse. i am being denied the ability to use a amarrian weapon, on amarrian ships that have a slot "dedicated" for it to be fitted (because you can't fit anything else) to solve a problem that is largely amarrian in origin. if i hear one more time "just fit a neut" i think i'm going to go postal - this makes the problem worse. the same with the "but you have better cap regen" - yes that's true, becuase we have to, but it doesn't matter how fast you regen cap, you use it faster than you can make it in amarrian ships. it's just a stupid idea. all to fix a gallente imbalance issue. Last time I checked... 0 is the smallest non-negative number...which means nos will still work EXACTLY THE SAME for you amarr have worst cap...agreed? therefore you get better cap regen cause more than likely youll be the lower cap of the two so youll be the only one able to nos In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back Think before posting kthx ;D

Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:37:00 - [1471] can't ccp just nerf nerfing? Things need to be ballanced thats for sure but read on.. the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. i feel kinda bad that it happens this way. i would much much rather there was a new module brought into play that did something like 'protect your cap from being drained fully' something new something cool something to strive to learn for, rather than feel like i have been kicked down and wasted all that time. After all time is money, plus i pay to play this game. So to me it feels like im having something/money/time taken from me, and is leaves me feeling bad about it. i personaly think that this is the biggest main reason that people feel bad and negative about changes like this.
6Bagheera9 Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:38:00 - [1472] The Khanid changes look promising but stumble because of the restriction to short-ranged missiles. Amarr ships are slow and I can see serious issues with them getting close enough to use HAMs. This speed/range issue is why the people typically fit heavy missile launchers rather than HAMs on Drakes. The Nos change on the other hand is total faceplant and makes the module dependent on constant cap management. A much better solution would be to make the amount of cap drained directly dependent on the % cap level of only the target. By using a logarithmic function you engineer nos to only be able to stress a persons capacitor and restrict them from using cap intensive modules. In order to actually kill a person cap, neutralizers would be the only option. This would also be a more realistic module of how capacitor actually work.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:40:00 - [1473] Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 07/08/2007 19:44:02 Originally by: Wyliee can't ccp just nerf nerfing? Things need to be ballanced thats for sure but read on.. the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. i feel kinda bad that it happens this way. i would much much rather there was a new module brought into play that did something like 'protect your cap from being drained fully' something new something cool something to strive to learn for, rather than feel like i have been kicked down and wasted all that time. After all time is money, plus i pay to play this game. So to me it feels like im having something/money/time taken from me, and is leaves me feeling bad about it. i personaly think that this is the biggest main reason that people feel bad and negative about changes like this. Well what people don't get is that this "nerf" doesn't kill anything other than the "I WIN! I CAN SOLO ANYTHING" ships, which shouldn't exist in the first place. Edit: In fact it doesn't kill the ships, just takes off the god mode cheat they've been using :P
Web Slinger	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:43:00 - [1474] I would like to see the Concord police and customs NOS nerfed this bad. They have a god like shield and armor and a crazy range on their NOS! I say if my NOSdomi is getting screwed - these should as well. just my 2 cents
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:45:00 - [1475] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Wyliee can't ccp just nerf nerfing? Things need to be ballanced thats for sure but read on.. the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. i feel kinda bad that it happens this way. i would much much rather there was a new module brought into play that did something like 'protect your cap from being drained fully' something new something cool something to strive to learn for, rather than feel like i have been kicked down and wasted all that time. After all time is money, plus i pay to play this game. So to me it feels like im having something/money/time taken from me, and is leaves me feeling bad about it. i personaly think that this is the biggest main reason that people feel bad and negative about changes like this. Well what people don't get is that this "nerf" doesn't kill anything other than the "I WIN! I CAN SOLO ANYTHING" ships, which shouldn't exist in the first place. thats not true... it burns me that i have spent weeks and weeks learning amarr recon. what a waste. had i of known this was on the horizon i would have put that time into command ships. further more...you know thats a fact. the nerfing sucks to hell and i feel robbed of skil points, time and money.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:46:00 - [1476] Originally by: Web Slinger I would like to see the Concord police and customs NOS nerfed this bad. They have a god like shield and armor and a crazy range on their NOS! I say if my NOSdomi is getting screwed - these should as well. just my 2 cents Don't you know? Concord has 0 cap from running the "I WILL OWN YOU III" module :D
Web Slinger	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:53:00 - [1477] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Web Slinger I would like to see the Concord police and customs NOS nerfed this bad. They have a god like shield and armor and a crazy range on their NOS! I say if my NOSdomi is getting screwed - these should as well. just my 2 cents Don't you know? Concord has 0 cap from running the "I WILL OWN YOU III" module :D Is that a mod or a rig? ...I think it rigged
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 19:59:00 - [1478] Originally by: Wyliee Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Wyliee can't ccp just nerf nerfing? Things need to be ballanced thats for sure but read on.. the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. i feel kinda bad that it happens this way. i would much much rather there was a new module brought into play that did something like 'protect your cap from being drained fully' something new something cool something to strive to learn for, rather than feel like i have been kicked down and wasted all that time. After all time is money, plus i pay to play this game. So to me it feels like im having something/money/time taken from me, and is leaves me feeling bad about it. i personaly think that this is the biggest main reason that people feel bad and negative about changes like this. Well what people don't get is that this "nerf" doesn't kill anything other than the "I WIN! I CAN SOLO ANYTHING" ships, which shouldn't exist in the first place. thats not true... it burns me that i have spent weeks and weeks learning amarr recon. what a waste. had i of known this was on the horizon i would have put that time into command ships. further more...you know thats a fact. the nerfing sucks to hell and i feel robbed of skil points, time and money. OH! You're another person crying about how their solo pwnmobile can't take on a titan anymore? /me hands Wyliee a kleenex To those willing to listen: The Curse is still deadly. Read up on those more experienced curse pilots who have tested it and even posted updated strategies here on how to be effective.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:00:00 - [1479] Originally by: Web Slinger Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Web Slinger I would like to see the Concord police and customs NOS nerfed this bad. They have a god like shield and armor and a crazy range on their NOS! I say if my NOSdomi is getting screwed - these should as well. just my 2 cents Don't you know? Concord has 0 cap from running the "I WILL OWN YOU III" module :D Is that a mod or a rig? ...I think it rigged its a mod that takes up 9 medslots also for it to work you require the complete set of 4 tech 3 rigs :D
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:00:00 - [1480] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 The Khanid changes look promising but stumble because of the restriction to short-ranged missiles. Amarr ships are slow The Vengeance and Sacrilege are getting a speed boost though. If it's not enough we'll just have to hope for more of one. Originally by: 6Bag9 The Nos change on the other hand is total faceplant and makes the module dependent on constant cap management. So you prefer PVP via F1-F8 over actually managing stuff while fighting? Originally by: 6Bag9 This would also be a more realistic module of how capacitor actually work. Actually, your idea would be a more realistic model of an RC circuit. This new change is like hooking up two capacitors with a diode between them, which is pretty realistic in my opinion. --- Proud Amarr pilot.

General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:33:00 - [1481] STOP THE NERF, LET THE GAME LIVE
Sanilnar	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:40:00 - [1482] Originally by: General StarScream STOP THE NERF, LET THE GAME LIVE /signed
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:43:00 - [1483] Originally by: Sanilnar Originally by: General StarScream STOP THE NERF, LET THE GAME LIVE /signed STOP THE WHINERS. SAVE THE FORUMS!
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:44:00 - [1484] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda STOP THE WHINERS. SAVE THE FORUMS! /signed. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:52:00 - [1485] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Wyliee Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Wyliee can't ccp just nerf nerfing? Things need to be ballanced thats for sure but read on.. the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. i feel kinda bad that it happens this way. i would much much rather there was a new module brought into play that did something like 'protect your cap from being drained fully' something new something cool something to strive to learn for, rather than feel like i have been kicked down and wasted all that time. After all time is money, plus i pay to play this game. So to me it feels like im having something/money/time taken from me, and is leaves me feeling bad about it. i personaly think that this is the biggest main reason that people feel bad and negative about changes like this. Well what people don't get is that this "nerf" doesn't kill anything other than the "I WIN! I CAN SOLO ANYTHING" ships, which shouldn't exist in the first place. thats not true... it burns me that i have spent weeks and weeks learning amarr recon. what a waste. had i of known this was on the horizon i would have put that time into command ships. further more...you know thats a fact. the nerfing sucks to hell and i feel robbed of skil points, time and money. OH! You're another person crying about how their solo pwnmobile can't take on a titan anymore? /me hands Wyliee a kleenex To those willing to listen: The Curse is still deadly. Read up on those more experienced curse pilots who have tested it and even posted updated strategies here on how to be effective. and the pilgrim? anyway im so glad you read my post and understood the gripe rather than pigeon hole it.
A Skywalker	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:43:00 - [1486] Why did the spoil the only 2 good ships i fly, especially the pilgrim is so screwed now. i know i can fit a neut but i really didn't had any good experiences with that on my pilgrim. Solo only 3 nos is viable and i only trained a friiging long time for that ship. thx for nothing ccp.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:48:00 - [1487] Originally by: Wyliee Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Wyliee Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Wyliee can't ccp just nerf nerfing? Things need to be ballanced thats for sure but read on.. the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. i feel kinda bad that it happens this way. i would much much rather there was a new module brought into play that did something like 'protect your cap from being drained fully' something new something cool something to strive to learn for, rather than feel like i have been kicked down and wasted all that time. After all time is money, plus i pay to play this game. So to me it feels like im having something/money/time taken from me, and is leaves me feeling bad about it. i personaly think that this is the biggest main reason that people feel bad and negative about changes like this. Well what people don't get is that this "nerf" doesn't kill anything other than the "I WIN! I CAN SOLO ANYTHING" ships, which shouldn't exist in the first place. thats not true... it burns me that i have spent weeks and weeks learning amarr recon. what a waste. had i of known this was on the horizon i would have put that time into command ships. further more...you know thats a fact. the nerfing sucks to hell and i feel robbed of skil points, time and money. OH! You're another person crying about how their solo pwnmobile can't take on a titan anymore? /me hands Wyliee a kleenex To those willing to listen: The Curse is still deadly. Read up on those more experienced curse pilots who have tested it and even posted updated strategies here on how to be effective. and the pilgrim? anyway im so glad you read my post and understood the gripe rather than pigeon hole it. Ok. I'll take it seriously now. The problem with the curse, and really nos in general, was that you could completely kill someones cap with little to no effect on yourself (sacrificing DPS is a BS excuse especially since the main problems are with drone boats where the majority of DPS comes from drones) The pilgrim is a recon ship and still does that well, with the cyno bonus etc. As for solo pvp etc. Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser imo (unless the BC+ has terrible fittings) and were meant to play more of a support role. This is less true for the Curse, but taking on well fit BSs is, well, BS. I'm sorry all your time and money was spent training for something that will now be nerfed, but honestly now you're more in line with the other races and no longer a solo pwnmobile. Any other points you'd like to bring up? I'll be happy to reasonably respond to them without sarcasm etc. cheers +1 intelligence
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.07 22:00:00 - [1488] Edited by: Cyan Nuevo on 07/08/2007 22:02:37 Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda The pilgrim is a recon ship and still does that well, with the cyno bonus etc. As for solo pvp etc. Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser imo (unless the BC+ has terrible fittings) and were meant to play more of a support role. This is less true for the Curse, but taking on well fit BSs is, well, BS. Although you're right about pretty much everything, I'd say Force recons aren't meant for solo-ing serious targets, so those of you whining that you can't take on a BS in a Pilgrim now are totally unjustified. Meanwhile, the Combat Recon is only barely nerfed now. I'll post a new fit when I get home. Edit: Nevermind, I won't post a complete new fit, but just think about this: 3-4 nos, 1-2 neuts, RSD a BS down to below 20km lock range, orbit out of this range, sic your drones, they die. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Darius Amir	Posted - 2007.08.07 22:07:00 - [1489] I know if this has been said before but I have a few issues with the new ships (Sacrilege). I'm not going to go on and on about how I have to give up my 5.1 million sp in gunnery and train up missiles if I want to keep flying my ship that I have been using up to now. I have a few questions: 1) Speed: Why is this ship slower then Zealot? The Sacrilege is required to use close range weapons (Heavy Assault Missiles) while the Zealot can choose between long and short ranges (Beam and Pulse Lasers)? I think the ship needs to go faster then the Zealot but slower then the Vagabond. 2) Low Slots: Why does this ship have 5 low slots while the Maller has 6 and the Zealot has 7? If the Sacrilege is supposed to be a heavy tanker why does it have so few low slots? No other HAC has less low/mid/high slots then its base model. Why does the Sacrilege? This ship needs at least as many low slots as its base model, but I feel it needs 7 lows if it is supposed to be the tanking pure close range HAC. 3) Weapons: Why did the Sacrilege become a pure missile platform all of a sudden? Again no other HAC has its main weapons change so drastically from base to HAC level. A Vexor (drone boat) becomes an Ishtar (drone boat); A Caracal (Missile Boat) becomes a Cerberus (Missile Boat), and so on, and so on. I know none of this will probably even get looked at by a Dev, but I had to say something. I feel like I have wasted a lot of time training Amarr. I know that they said they were going to fix lasers but a lot of us have been waiting for them to fix lasers for a long time and then we get this change?
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.07 22:22:00 - [1490] Originally by: Don Shadow 1. pls tell to your mate(the guy that uses his Apoc well in lvl4 solo!!!?("Raven"-well), wich you mentioned some posts back) to let the PVE for one hour and to go try some PVP... he will learn(and you from him)that PvE and PvP are diferent things... 2. this nos nerf will add more lag to the server... 3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being raped by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"... 4. allways remember that PvP is not the same thing with doing missions... 5 CCP Fix the LAAAAGGGGG, fix the pos problems, fix the desync problems... noses are ok in this form, whay the hell you are trying to fix somthing that works fine???! Aparantly you do have problems reading my posts. 1) True, PvP is not PvE... if it where Caldari would PWN! But its true he dont fly apocs in pvp, and he doesnt want to. 2) probably 3) Ok re-read my post, i mention NOs, i meantion NEUTs but never togheter on a setup. If Caldari and Minmatar Drains their Cap down to 0 that menas you dont even have to fit NEUTs to cap em out. You can just sit their use NOS and a laser once in a wile so the caldari and minmatars go OH NOES GOTTA EMPTY CAP NOW! Then you can start fire your guns on a ship that cant tank at all... Again id argue that in extreemly few occasion would a Pilot be better of nuking his Cap out just to stop 1-2 NOSes, if any at all. Try fitting 1-2 NEuts on a passive tanked drake... and if you somehow gimp your tank or launchers to be able to fit one.. see how long that sucker would keep going with all those Shield power relays on (in other words NOT worth it to disable 1 or perhaps 2 NOS on a enemy ship)... Caldari Passive Tanks take every bit of Powergrid that they have... The good Tanks atleast. I can see possibilities for the Rokh thou... Point is you should fear all the NOS boats out there today more then you will EVER fear a passive tanked ship with Neuts like ROKH(4 launchers+4Neuts+passive tank, itll be slow as hell and wont have drones or EWAR). 4) Again if it where Caldari would own! 5) Yes please, true, oyeah mommma! and No!.. 1 NOS on your laser boat might be fine, in so many other cases it is not. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.07 22:22:00 - [1491] Originally by: Wyliee the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. Then this "nerf" should make no difference and have no effect on anyone. Simply: You could use Large NOS the second day your character was alive. No "blah blah blah" number of skills, no "weeks and weeks" spent. Second day. So you lost 2 days training and CCP altered a module that was more effective in bringing down your enemy than putting guns on the ship. Seems like balancing to me, not nerfing. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.07 22:41:00 - [1492] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Wyliee the problem with nerfing is, that all that skill points learnt in blah blah skills all that time weeks and weeks spent, is now been nerfed too. Then this "nerf" should make no difference and have no effect on anyone. Simply: You could use Large NOS the second day your character was alive. No "blah blah blah" number of skills, no "weeks and weeks" spent. Second day. So you lost 2 days training and CCP altered a module that was more effective in bringing down your enemy than putting guns on the ship. Seems like balancing to me, not nerfing. I think hes refering to have trained to a Curse and Pilgrim whos main attribute was NOS/Neut with Drones. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Freakdevil Gallente Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.07 23:48:00 - [1493] I think skills should factor into the NOS usage. Higher skills should allow NOS module to slowly take more and keep more upto a point. Otherwise I think perhaps removing NOS and Neutralizers might make more sense if your looking to increase combat times and give people more time to react. -FD "You have such nice a pod. I'll take it!"
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.08 03:09:00 - [1494] sooo... are we moveing ahead with changes or not? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.08 07:05:00 - [1495] Quote: In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back Think before posting kthx ;D simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep? again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem. some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about. //sometimes less is more...zero
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.08 09:30:00 - [1496] for all of you that complain that a force recon shouldnt be able to solo kill a battleship - why the hell not? takes a lot longer to learn to use and much more skill points.
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2007.08.08 09:54:00 - [1497] Originally by: Wyliee for all of you that complain that a force recon shouldnt be able to solo kill a battleship - why the hell not? takes a lot longer to learn to use and much more skill points. Well you could for starters look up the other recons and judge wether the majority is or is not able to kill a bs. You could maybe read the descs too. You might give a few quiet minutes of contemplation on the general theme of bonuses they have. You could also consider for a moment the general guidelines along which the game as whole seems to work, in regards to different shipsizes, and t2 ships in particular. The costs more/needs more skills argument was shot down on daily basis during the nanonerf-flamewar, if you're interested, you can dig up a thread few months back and see why it doesn't work. And in any case, I'm willing to bet a properly trained BS-pilot won't be that far behind a properly trained curse-pilot in terms of skillpoints, considering most of the support skills are the same, and nos needs one rank2 skill compared to t2 turrets all the way from small to large + the assorted gunnery support skills.
DarkFollower Amarr Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.08 10:41:00 - [1498] Originally by: SencneS You're not going to see more Khanid ships, if fact you'll see less. They where already on the short list, I fly around in a Damnation and people say WOW that's one cool ass looking ship. The one thing people and more importantly CCP seem to forget is some Khanid ships are not designed for PVP. The Damnation being one of them. It's a support ship, like the Guardian. Although it's name sounds otherwise, this Fleet Command ship is not meant for close up firefights. I've posted all though this thread, and like the person you quoted I trained a long time to get a Damnation, and trained all it's skills to use it effectively. Now 50% of those skills are tossed out the window. I would rather be shown a new "toy" and be told "Here, you need these skills to fly it" then have my toy tossed into the shredder and be told, "Here's your new toy. Oh by the way you'll need to train for a month to use it as effectively as the one we just shredded, and you'll also need to use it differently, so get use to the new play style" This is exactly what CCP has done. And those that thing it's a buff, really haven't flown the Khanid ships. They didn't need a buff and they certainly didn't need this nerf. I would also like to remind people that these Khanid changes where suggest by a player, who probably didn't have statistical information available to CCP. He made assumptions probably due to his game style. He probably likes close in combat so of course he is going to suggest bonuses to sub 10km range setups. If I was to suggest changes to Khanid ships I'd want Sniping bonuses. For the same reason as there are no dedicated close range combat ships, I propose a Sniping setup. I'm talking 300km sniping range with low damage on a Damnation. Which is exactly what a fleet command ship should be like. I only see a few reasons for this post 1) u Don't fly the khanid ships in their current form 2) u don't pvp alot in khanid ships and u generaly have another race ship's that u use for pvp and keep the khanid ships only for the looks 3) u are a alt of some1's main and u use this char only for fleet bonuses or expendable tacklers(the only 1 thing that made khanid ships worth flying was that they costed nothing because they werent very good) 4) u just like flying things that ussualy end blown up , that try to do all things but fail at all of them ,that all other races variants are better at what they do(except only the domnation that at least can fit the warfares but fail at all the other not like and eos let's say), that only look good and have a unique colour Now really gimme a reason why u would fly this stuff because in order Dictor - only good because it actually does what dictors are suposed to do and that is launch bubbles and it's cheep other than that it's slow can sometimes fire lasers and u ocasionaly see missiles coming from him so it only provides preaty light show ceptor - it's cheep and u can fit a web other than it's slow , a rifter would probably outdamage it , and a punisher outtank him so it tends to die alot but it's cheep so.. Af - u've guessed it it's cheep it can tackle and probably survive longer that a ceptor so u'll use this because u're sick of the ceptor and u want something that can rezists longer, it has fancy cilinders that rotate, what speed , what dmg HAc - yeah this one's preatty cheep aswell, good tank ,good for tackling , what dmg , slow and bulky command ship - good for bonuses , it's black other than that crap crap crap maybe a bit of tank here and there because it's black afterall i mean wtf why bonuses for 4 turrents and 1 bonus to optimal(the other one is cap reduction to lasers) that i can use for what ???!! won't give me enough range to snipe and my "close range" weapons that ussualy shoot up to 20-25 now can shoot up to 35-40 wow Regarding the Nos change , i like it , won't hurt the curse that much , it will hurt the pilgrim maybe, helps amarr Cap recharges on PvP ships Suxxor monkey ballzorz!!
Jacknife Sanguinarius	Posted - 2007.08.08 18:59:00 - [1499] Originally by: Borasao Originally by: Jacknife Sanguinarius And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :( Heh... probably the #1 reason was because they were cheaper than the non-Khanid ships and that's because they generally aren't that good... but if you're in a gang, you don't need to be the best... just able to fit some weapons, tackle, and/or EW to contribute. True. For the Malediction and Vengeance it was the mid slots to be able to web/scramble with MWD. I didn't notice if there was a price difference or not. Anathema, duh, only covert ops ship. But as pointed out, who fights in them? I haven't quite worked my way up to the others. But seeing this makes getting tech 2 med lasers before getting into the Damnation frustrating!
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.08 19:28:00 - [1500] Edited by:**er on 08/08/2007 19:29:13 Originally by: zero2espect Quote: In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back Think before posting kthx ;D simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep? again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem. some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about. Ok so you cant use NOs on a capless MWD target, this is true. However can you today? i mean a NOS on a capless target today doesnt really give you cap does it? And as you seem to be good at amarr ships, let me tell you something about caldari ships: 1)ppl dont PvP generally in most Caldari ships. Giveing them some sort of edge should be forbidden! 2)a passive shield tank wont be fitting Neutralizers... No powergrid for it. And no dronebay so cant waste highslot dmg. 3)a passive shield tank have close to 0 cap recharge. Its got enough cap to run 1-3 invul fields. Not enough cap to run a Neutralizer effectively. 4)Active shield tanks dont want to burn their Cap to 0 as fast as possible, they want to stay above 30% for aslong as possible. On both shields and Cap. 5)Caldari ships have low powergrid. Fact: you wont see many caldari ships in PvP, and those you do see wont likely have a Neutralizer to dump its cap Or it WONT dump its cap couse that would be suicide with no Tank. There your Caldari dumping cap problem is not a threat really. A MWD running on cap boosters wont give you much cap today, and wont after patch. /flameOn "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

Father Muslum	Posted - 2007.08.08 20:57:00 - [1501] With this patch "NOS AMOUNT BONUS" means nothing. So all curse, pilgrim, ashimmu, bhaalgorn bonuses must be changed if this is coming.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.08 21:14:00 - [1502] Originally by: Father Muslum With this patch "NOS AMOUNT BONUS" means nothing. So all curse, pilgrim, ashimmu, bhaalgorn bonuses must be changed if this is coming. It means a NOS Killsmore CAP and drains more CAP. It means a NEUT Killsmore CAP at the same cap cost. Right? Oh and the Bloodraider ships are getting their NOS bonus changed to NOS+NEUT bonus. Devs confirmed this in their posts some pages back in this thread. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.08 21:18:00 - [1503] Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:21:07 Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:20:13 Originally by: zero2espect Quote: In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back Think before posting kthx ;D simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep? again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem. some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about. Sorry but you DO need to think more than, well, you think you need to think. Fagar has a point, sure we can shoot our weapons, but out tank (whether it is speed or otherwise) is completely gone, just like yours. In order to sustain our tanks, we may use cap boosters which would put our cap above yours anyway in which case your nos would work again and ours wouldn't. Pretty much the only time I could see a ship purposefully grounding its cap to 0 and not boosting it back above yours is a passive shield tanker, and a damn good one (drake + myrmi). If they ground their cap its 0 anyway so NO nos/neut system will work so you're boned with either system. STOP THE STEREOTYPES! MINNIE AND CALDARI LOVE US OUR CAP TOO! :D btw...I do fly all four races and am quite familiar with your capacitor troubles (I don't fly any other t2 ships other than minnie which is why I haven't commented on the khanid changes) Summary: 1. Target cap = 0 means you can't use either nos 2. Passive Shield tankers are perhaps the only ones to ground their cap intentionally in order to gain a tactical advantage (this may change as new fits come out after the patch but for now this is fairly true.) 3. Nos is better for Amarr now because when their cap is above yours you no longer get Your nos amount - their nos amount, resulting in better cap recharge. 4. As you've pointed out and I have noticed through my usage of Amarr, alot of fits balance out at 40%-50% which is worse than any other race. Therefore, you're more likely to get any use out of the new nos system. Sorry for destroying your argument :( I'll be back if you wish to try one that makes sense Edit: Spelling mistakes
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.08 21:53:00 - [1504] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:21:07 Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 21:20:13 Originally by: zero2espect Quote: In this situation...nos is BETTER than before cause you cant be nossed back Think before posting kthx ;D simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep? again - this nerf is designed to stop nosdomis or nosmyrmies fitting full banks of nos and relying on drones to do the damage. amarr can't fit this way because we don't have the drone bays. amarr copping the nerf to fix the gallante problem. some1 needs to think before posting, and it aint me - i've done more than think - i've tried exploring the differences and what they mean plus i actually fly amarr and know what i'm talking about. Sorry but you DO need to think more than, well, you think you need to think. Fagar has a point, sure we can shoot our weapons, but out tank (whether it is speed or otherwise) is completely gone, just like yours. In order to sustain our tanks, we may use cap boosters which would put our cap above yours anyway in which case your nos would work again and ours wouldn't. Pretty much the only time I could see a ship purposefully grounding its cap to 0 and not boosting it back above yours is a passive shield tanker, and a damn good one (drake + myrmi). If they ground their cap its 0 anyway so NO nos/neut system will work so you're boned with either system. STOP THE STEREOTYPES! MINNIE AND CALDARI LOVE US OUR CAP TOO! :D btw...I do fly all four races and am quite familiar with your capacitor troubles (I don't fly any other t2 ships other than minnie which is why I haven't commented on the khanid changes) Summary: 1. Target cap = 0 means you can't use either nos 2. Passive Shield tankers are perhaps the only ones to ground their cap intentionally in order to gain a tactical advantage (this may change as new fits come out after the patch but for now this is fairly true.) 3. Nos is better for Amarr now because when their cap is above yours you no longer get Your nos amount - their nos amount, resulting in better cap recharge. 4. As you've pointed out and I have noticed through my usage of Amarr, alot of fits balance out at 40%-50% which is worse than any other race. Therefore, you're more likely to get any use out of the new nos system. Sorry for destroying your argument :( I'll be back if you wish to try one that makes sense Edit: Spelling mistakes Also please note the disadvantages Passive Tanks will have using Neutz that i pointed out before. (Powergrid, Low Cap, low DPS, Mediocre Passive tank) All that to be able to take out 1-2 NOS on a enemy ship? Id say its better of improving the Tank and DPS and have a greater chance against the NOS ship and also stand greater chances vs non NOS ships. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.08 21:55:00 - [1505] Originally by: Fager Also please note the disadvantages Passive Tanks will have using Neutz that i pointed out before. (Powergrid, Low Cap, low DPS, Mediocre Passive tank) All that to be able to take out 1-2 NOS on a enemy ship? Id say its better of improving the Tank and DPS and have a greater chance against the NOS ship and also stand greater chances vs non NOS ships. Thanks I like people on the forums backing me up for a change :D
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.08 22:03:00 - [1506] Originally by: zero2espect simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.) Originally by: zero2espect meanwhile i'll be using booster charges like crazy as i try to keep firing and repping and forever boosting myself out of the ability to nos back even a little bit of extra cap. i can't fit a neut to a zealot can i - how can i afford the neut cap cost on any amarr ship and still shoot and rep? What's the problem? A nos will help you keep your cap up. If you want to kill the other person's cap, it's not going to come for free. The fact that you could do it for free is the whole point of this nerf in the first place! --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.08 22:44:00 - [1507] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Originally by: zero2espect simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.) Again the Passive Tanker would SACRIFICE alot, to much to make it doable with Neutralizers compared to what it would gain. However Passivetanks have already been nerfed once, and will still be the only tank type that are not effected by Neutralizers. Passivetankers give up alot to get those strong passive tanks thou. Like speed/Tackle/DPS. Another way you could see it is; today a passive tank works against NOS and neutralizers, after the patch theyll counter the Neutralizer. Do you really believe theyll be a problem? "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.08 22:52:00 - [1508] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Originally by: zero2espect simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.) Again the Passive Tanker would SACRIFICE alot, to much to make it doable with Neutralizers compared to what it would gain. However Passivetanks have already been nerfed once, and will still be the only tank type that are not effected by Neutralizers. Passivetankers give up alot to get those strong passive tanks thou. Like speed/Tackle/DPS. Another way you could see it is; today a passive tank works against NOS and neutralizers, after the patch theyll counter the Neutralizer. Do you really believe theyll be a problem? The problem isn't with the drake so much as it is with the myrmidon. I can get a cap stable fit to work using 2 neuts and still have about 250+ hp/s regen with decent resists which is more than a T2 extra large shield booster, a BS module. Unlike the module, if cap hits 0 you will still get the 250+ hp/s 5 Ogre IIs are uneffected by cap recharge and will output same dps regardless of fit. (unless you fit drone specific mods/rigs) NOTE: The figures quoted are at peak recharge which is at about 30-35% shield capacity
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.08 23:13:00 - [1509] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Originally by: Fager Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Originally by: zero2espect simply not true because a minmatar or caldari pilot doesn't need cap and can zero it (either through neuts or just dumping it into the mwd). As Tidas and Faager (stupid word filter) already mentioned, the only ships that can safely ground their cap are passive shield tankers. However, the insane advantages that passive shield tanking will give you after the patch is not a problem with the nos nerf but with passive shield tanking itself. (I'll probably create a separate thread on the issue.) Again the Passive Tanker would SACRIFICE alot, to much to make it doable with Neutralizers compared to what it would gain. However Passivetanks have already been nerfed once, and will still be the only tank type that are not effected by Neutralizers. Passivetankers give up alot to get those strong passive tanks thou. Like speed/Tackle/DPS. Another way you could see it is; today a passive tank works against NOS and neutralizers, after the patch theyll counter the Neutralizer. Do you really believe theyll be a problem? The problem isn't with the drake so much as it is with the myrmidon. I can get a cap stable fit to work using 2 neuts and still have about 250+ hp/s regen with decent resists which is more than a T2 extra large shield booster, a BS module. Unlike the module, if cap hits 0 you will still get the 250+ hp/s 5 Ogre IIs are uneffected by cap recharge and will output same dps regardless of fit. (unless you fit drone specific mods/rigs) NOTE: The figures quoted are at peak recharge which is at about 30-35% shield capacity Hmm im no Myrmi expert but, is it capstable with2 neuts and 3-4guns? Can it tackle or did you use all mids and lows for Tank+Cap. 5 unbonused heavy drone as only dps... and no backupdrones... Im not saying it would suck but it seems it is sacrificng alot... I cant see it as a new NOSdomi.. not by miles. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.08 23:55:00 - [1510] Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 23:59:33 REPLY TO FAAGER MOVED TO RELEVENT THREAD LINK COMING SOON

Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.09 00:31:00 - [1511] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 23:59:33 REPLY TO FAAGER MOVED TO RELEVENT THREAD LINK COMING SOON /beer "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.09 00:45:00 - [1512] Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 09/08/2007 00:47:16 Originally by: Fager Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 08/08/2007 23:59:33 REPLY TO FAAGER MOVED TO RELEVENT THREAD LINK COMING SOON /beer OK OK put the beer away Heres your thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=572140&page=1#3 Edit: This is a thread that calls for the nerf of passive tanking.
zero2espect Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.08.09 09:21:00 - [1513] /sigh. has the world gone topsy turvy. a passive shield tanker only needs to keep enuff cap to keep me scrammed and they are immune. currently the zealot has 5 hi slots. 4 turrets. no missiles. the only mod u can fit is a neut or a nos. period. i've discussed previously how insanely stupid it would be to fit a neut to the zealot so lets forget that and say a nos is fitted. passive shield tanked drake (hello, a caldari pvp ship) or basically any minmatar passive tanker needs only to hit the scrammer, close the range and the zealot is dead. it's useless. the shield tanker either fits a neut or dumps the cap into the mwd - just making sure there is enough cap every once and a while to keep the scrammer going. this guarantees the zealot (or any other amarr ship) can't nos even the tiniest little bit of cap (it all makes a difference). add to this the fact that even if i can nos to break the scram that's good enough for me. also add to this my maxxed cap skills actually disadvantage me even worse under this scenario. the alternatives: * don't deploy this stoopid patch -> we all know ccp's history with accepting feedback so let's forget this hey? * just try to fit a meaner passive tank than anybody else -> and get absolutely creamed at every gatecamp in the universe because we'll take half an hour to align (because unlike a passive shield tanker we sacrifice agility and speed for tank) * train a third weapon spec into projectiles -> and forgo all the now even more uselss amarr ship bonuses (cap usage) * fit a cap booster to every amarr ship -> and lose the most precious amarr commodity, a mid slot. this only delays the inevitable the sad fact is that this patch does nothing to stop the domi and myrmy energy ganking setups. because either ship with a cap booster can just swap out to a passive tank, neuts and drones and basically do exactly what they do today - little to no impact. hell, if i was a myrmy/domi pilot i'd start training projectiles right now: half neuts, massive drone bay, passive tank, cap booster and the rest autocannons would be actually pretty awesome. timecapsule this statement "This is the single best change for myrmy and domi pilots that there has ever been - and you will all be complaining about it on the forums 6 weeks after the patch goes in". this is not to mention the shield tanking pilots who whould be wetting their pants and urging ccp to hurry up. as stated amarr simple cannot fit this way, with the only solution re-catogorising neuts/nos as "launchers" and adjusting hi-slots accordingly. sheesh, at this stage i'd be happy to suggest that 50% of the amarr fleet lose its useless ship bonuses and made into nos bonus making amarr really the only nos race (which it is supposed to be). the real reason that the curse is so loved by amarr pilots is becuase of 5 things. 1. for amarr it has a huge drone bay. 2. it has more than 3 mid slots. 3. it has a bonus that is actually useful (unlike 99% of amarr ships). 4. it isn't (although it is) gimped by having a useless utility slot. 5. it looks good. now it's just another useless ship and all the others suck even harder than they used to. anyway. the more responses i write in here, the more i realise i'm wasting my time... 99% of amarr pilots should think this is a horrible idea... but the hordes of fanboy minmatar pilots and caldari pilots looking for some1 else to cop a nerfing mixed in with the domi and myrmy pilots who should be trying to hide their smiles as they switch training to projectiles will have their way. the carebears couldn't care less, ccp aint nerfing torps or fiddling with bpos are they? no dev plays as amarr. so it's all upside really. the only downside is amarr pilots whinging the forums and wishing things could just once, turn the right way for them. ppl can't read these forums unless they've already subscribed anyway, so what do ccp care? zero signing out from this thread and thinks about how to consolidate accounts //sometimes less is more...zero
Areolas	Posted - 2007.08.09 11:28:00 - [1514] Heretic (Interdictor) * Hardpoints: 6 launchers (+1), 2 turrets (-2) * Fitting: 230tf (+19tf), 57mw (-9mw) Bonuses * 5% bonus to rocket damage per DD level * 10% bonus to explosion velocity per DD level * 10% bonus to missile velocity per Interdictor level * 10% Interdiction Sphere Launcher ROF per Interdictor level (no change) The Heretic has similar bonuses to the Flycatcher, but the rockets only damage bonus and the low CPU makes rockets more suitable than standard missiles. The Explosion velocity bonus makes the Heretic better for taking down high speed targets vs. low speed, low signature radius targets for the Flycatcher. my heretic is too slow for close range and the fitting is too tight for tanking and tackle. so i don't see this helping!!!!!
Nipplator Amarr Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.09 11:43:00 - [1515] Heretic (Interdictor) * Hardpoints: 6 launchers (+1), 2 turrets (-2) * Fitting: 230tf (+19tf), 57mw (-9mw) Bonuses * 5% bonus to rocket damage per DD level * 10% bonus to explosion velocity per DD level * 10% bonus to missile velocity per Interdictor level * 10% Interdiction Sphere Launcher ROF per Interdictor level (no change) The Heretic has similar bonuses to the Flycatcher, but the rockets only damage bonus and the low CPU makes rockets more suitable than standard missiles. The Explosion velocity bonus makes the Heretic better for taking down high speed targets vs. low speed, low signature radius targets for the Flycatcher. my heretic is too slow for close range and the fitting is too tight for tanking and tackle. so i don't see this helping!!!!!
Banker Bilo	Posted - 2007.08.09 12:17:00 - [1516] Originally by: Fager Originally by: Father Muslum With this patch "NOS AMOUNT BONUS" means nothing. So all curse, pilgrim, ashimmu, bhaalgorn bonuses must be changed if this is coming. It means a NOS Killsmore CAP and drains more CAP. It means a NEUT Killsmore CAP at the same cap cost. Right? Oh and the Bloodraider ships are getting their NOS bonus changed to NOS+NEUT bonus. Devs confirmed this in their posts some pages back in this thread. You have absolutely no idea about nos ships. It won't matter if you take 30 or 60 , after a while you can't take anymore cap from enemy so nos amount bonuses are useless. This is a NOS patch not "use neutralizer instead" patch. Among many good changes, devs selected the most crap one. Not to mention that you can't kill capital ships now.
Moon Beans	Posted - 2007.08.09 14:08:00 - [1517] The way i see it is what this all comes down to is not the ship thats being nerfed its the SP's wasted training something like the pilgrim that is now useless, IMHO nos was too good it shouldnt have been that good to start with then people wouldnt have wasted time training for the ships that are designed to use it or would have done so with the knowledge of what they would end up with. This is not the fault of the player but rather the shortcomings of the developers, the ones that thought NOS was a good idea to start with and waisted so many peoples time and money. What I say is go ahead with the NOS nerf it will make the gameplay better that i dont disagree with, but give the people back their SP's wasted on amarr recons let them put it somewhere else or give them back their money for the gametime spent training these now useless skills for something that is your fault CCP your poor design that you can only fix with a nerf.
Moon Beans	Posted - 2007.08.09 14:27:00 - [1518] first day of the patch i suggest all amarr pilots petition continusly for weeks on end until ccp give us our SP's back so we can be a race that aint nerfed... petition petition petition petition petition petition petition petition petition petition petition
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.09 14:44:00 - [1519] Edited by: Aramendel on 09/08/2007 14:45:20 Originally by: Banker Bilo Not to mention that you can't kill capital ships now. While there are some problems with cap warfare specialized ships draining carriers isn't that much of a problem. You can use nosses to power neuts till a very low cap level of the carrier. Like drain yourself with neuts till 0-5%, then use noses to get yourself up enough to use a neut, use the neut again, etc.
Lee KyongAh	Posted - 2007.08.09 15:11:00 - [1520] wow this is a long thread. Main issues with nos: A battleship can't instadrain an interceptor anymore, and some say neut will do the job and some say it won't. If the neut will do the job then I don't see this as a problem if it dosn't then..... :( Nos Domi is worthless now and neut domi just don't work. Well I can't say how worthless the nos domi will be or if a neut domi will work or not since I don't fly gallente. However in my mind then there is something wrong with the very concept of a nos domi as one of the most respected/feared ships in the game. The ship has no bonuses to nos and yet to fit as many nos as possible seems to be a setup that is vastly superior to rails/blasters that actually benefit from the ships bonuses. Some say that giving up a gun is a tradeoff for the nos. Yes it is a tradeoff but the thing is that a domi with it's drones alone has a dps that is good enough to kill every other battleship once it's cap is gone, passive shield tanks excluded(or so I am told, I don't fly caldari). This makes the nos domi into an "I win" ship in most cases. So yes you give up a gun and get something much better instead. Some have said that the Nos can be used by every race and we should just learn to fit our ships to counter it, and that it creates a ballance between new and old players. Well the Gallente droneboats are the only ships with an unaffected dps that is large enough to effectively be able to sacrifice their weapons in favor of a nos, fit nos on a maelstrom or whatever and it's drones will kill you sometime next year, unless you mannage to kill them first, and if you do then it has no replacements (assuming heavy drones) Well the domi is a blaster/rail boat as well as a drone carrier don't see why a neut domi should work any better than say a heavily shield tanked neut scorpion. Another issue that has been brought up is that making "nos worhless" removes choices and ccp could just as well build the mods into the ships. Well choices are still there, but now the ship might actually have it's best performance with using modules that are associated with it's bonuses. In fact I believe there is more of a choice now than before, since nos was THE domi setup. As for ballance between old and new players well personally I would see it as utterly unfair if I could consistently win against a 30 mil sp pure pvp pilot, or if a lvl 10 fighter could win against a lvl 60-70 fighter in wow, but well guess that is just me... The amarr recons are ships that actually get a bonus to nos/neut so that is something entirely different. These ships are kind of worthless in large gangs so in my mind they should be very strong solo. I don't favor any kind of "I Win" setups so if they are as unstopable as they seem to be in here (I can't fly them so can't tell) then yes I agree that they need a nerf. As for the Khanid changes well wonder why caldari don't use these missiles ??? Just a guess they are inferrior to standard missiles ... Well I am gona try them out anyway

Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.09 18:38:00 - [1521] Edited by: Tidas Andrommeda on 09/08/2007 18:38:44 @Zero: You won't be missed. If you haven't noticed many pilots that fly Amarr (me included) don't mind this nos change as much as you do and yes, I fly Amarr in PvE and PvP so stow that argument where I'll never see it again. As to purposefully dumping cap, the ONLY ships that could do what you suggest are passively tanked ships (which, unless I'm missing something, include the Myrmi and the Drake exclusively. You could passive tank other ships but I'm not sure they would even come close to the effectiveness of the Drake or Myrmi). And unlike an armor tanker, passive tankers get locked in 3 seconds cause of their gigantic sig radius thanks to our LSE IIs. Open your eyes...it stops the nosdomi cause now it can't drain your cap AND run a dual rep setup into infinity. Now it has to fit neuts to completely destroy your cap. Check your facts...I don't have to sign in to get to these forums, I just have to sign in to reply. The forums are completely public as far as reading goes. It just seems the public dismisses your weak arguments and takes it like a normal adult would. This doesn't destroy anything more than what it was meant to. The myrmi will still be fairly effective but thats an issue with passive tanking and not nos. @Banker: It is a "use neuts instead patch" Originally by: CCP Fendahl Migration to Neutralizers With the changes it is in general necessary to rely more on neutralizers than before. Note this is from a dev post in this very thread. Also you only need to keep a cappie under 70% cap since it takes that much to jump out. Keeping your own cap under 70% to ensure this seems...well...too easy. @Moon: Ever play a game before in your life? There is never a perfect initial release and there are almost always balance issues. This is how it works and this is what patches are for. Edit
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.09 19:47:00 - [1522] Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Ok. I'll take it seriously now. The problem with the curse, and really nos in general, was that you could completely kill someones cap with little to no effect on yourself (sacrificing DPS is a BS excuse especially since the main problems are with drone boats where the majority of DPS comes from drones) The pilgrim is a recon ship and still does that well, with the cyno bonus etc. As for solo pvp etc. Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser imo (unless the BC+ has terrible fittings) and were meant to play more of a support role. This is less true for the Curse, but taking on well fit BSs is, well, BS. I'm sorry all your time and money was spent training for something that will now be nerfed, but honestly now you're more in line with the other races and no longer a solo pwnmobile. Any other points you'd like to bring up? I'll be happy to reasonably respond to them without sarcasm etc. cheers +1 intelligence Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser? They're not supposed to take on a BC or BS? Well crap man, why even train them at all? I can spend 4 weeks on a noob account to train a BS, but 8 months training to properly use a Curse. Where's the balance in that?
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.09 21:36:00 - [1523] Originally by: LvxOccvlta Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Ok. I'll take it seriously now. The problem with the curse, and really nos in general, was that you could completely kill someones cap with little to no effect on yourself (sacrificing DPS is a BS excuse especially since the main problems are with drone boats where the majority of DPS comes from drones) The pilgrim is a recon ship and still does that well, with the cyno bonus etc. As for solo pvp etc. Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser imo (unless the BC+ has terrible fittings) and were meant to play more of a support role. This is less true for the Curse, but taking on well fit BSs is, well, BS. I'm sorry all your time and money was spent training for something that will now be nerfed, but honestly now you're more in line with the other races and no longer a solo pwnmobile. Any other points you'd like to bring up? I'll be happy to reasonably respond to them without sarcasm etc. cheers +1 intelligence Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser? They're not supposed to take on a BC or BS? Well crap man, why even train them at all? I can spend 4 weeks on a noob account to train a BS, but 8 months training to properly use a Curse. Where's the balance in that? You can properly fly a bs in 4 weeks on a noob account? Tell me how, I've got 4 weeks to spare.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.09 22:23:00 - [1524] Originally by: LvxOccvlta Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser? They're not supposed to take on a BC or BS? Well crap man, why even train them at all? I can spend 4 weeks on a noob account to train a BS, but 8 months training to properly use a Curse. Where's the balance in that? 8 months? What did you spend the time on? This "nerf" effected ONE module of which its largest size you could use your SECOND day of life in EvE. So the ship is worthless because of a module that took 2 days of training? Kindof screams the module was over-powered if it takes 2 days to train yet its alteration completely destroys a command ship. Maybe it should have taken 100+ days to use Large NOS, since it takes that long to use BS-sized T2 weapons.... Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.08.10 00:20:00 - [1525] Just popping in to say that if the NOS nerf goes through, ... it won't go through without serious Pilgrim boost. (or a lot of whine)
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.08.10 00:24:00 - [1526] Also The more missile ships and less turret ships is a tracking disruptor nerf. So it's a Curse/Pilgrim nerf. This needs to be compensated by giving Amarr point laser defense which destroys all Caldari missiles.
WhiteTigerGod	Posted - 2007.08.10 00:55:00 - [1527] OK this idea for NOS is total trash. It completely nurfs all ships that sue NOS and ust makes ships like NOS Domis and Curses total crap. No1 know who has read it has found any way to make the new NOS work with these ships and isnt worth it. I know at least 5 ppl right now who are going to sell their char if this patch goes through due to the fact their ship is pointless to fly now, and one of them is me. I implore you DONT DO IT PLZ!!!
wicker man	Posted - 2007.08.10 01:03:00 - [1528] PLZ PLZ DONT KILL the Curse that ive worked so hard for, dont kill my myr, domi, or how bout my WHOLE AMARR RACE! I do agree that nos might be a bit overpowered but this patch would make some ships total trash, can i get these SP points for amarr ships back somehow in minmatar ships now? just plz take some other way to go about nerfing the nos.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.10 01:53:00 - [1529] Originally by: Lee KyongAh As for the Khanid changes well wonder why caldari don't use these missiles ??? Just a guess they are inferrior to standard missiles ... Well I am gona try them out anyway Once upon a time there where Ravens using 2x MWDs. CCP realised this must not be, so they nerfed Caldaris Mass and Agility. Then they Nerfed the 2x MWD. Today Caldari are a slow race, often compared to station batteries. With no speed there is no running away, and low speed with shield tank means no close combat becouse of Bad tackling and being kited. Therefor HAMs are not used much by Caldari Pilots. Also HAMs with high PG usage doesnt fit well on Caldari Missile Boats with low PG. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
RisenPhoenix Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.10 02:17:00 - [1530] Khanid ships needed to be changed they never made alot of sense to me, kind of caught in a limbo but forcing amarr to use the missiles no one else uses and they don't have the skills for is laaaame. Also to fix nos give ships nos slots, 1 for most ships, 2 for battleships, and 4 or 5 for the ships with a nos speciality, would solve 99% of the problems people have with nos and wouldn't ruin it.

Kaben	Posted - 2007.08.10 07:30:00 - [1531] Originally by: LvxOccvlta Originally by: Tidas Andrommeda Ok. I'll take it seriously now. The problem with the curse, and really nos in general, was that you could completely kill someones cap with little to no effect on yourself (sacrificing DPS is a BS excuse especially since the main problems are with drone boats where the majority of DPS comes from drones) The pilgrim is a recon ship and still does that well, with the cyno bonus etc. As for solo pvp etc. Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser imo (unless the BC+ has terrible fittings) and were meant to play more of a support role. This is less true for the Curse, but taking on well fit BSs is, well, BS. I'm sorry all your time and money was spent training for something that will now be nerfed, but honestly now you're more in line with the other races and no longer a solo pwnmobile. Any other points you'd like to bring up? I'll be happy to reasonably respond to them without sarcasm etc. cheers +1 intelligence Recon ships weren't meant to solo anything bigger than a cruiser? They're not supposed to take on a BC or BS? Well crap man, why even train them at all? I can spend 4 weeks on a noob account to train a BS, but 8 months training to properly use a Curse. Where's the balance in that? Anti-support support, this doesn't mean, bs killer of doom, maybe a 4 week old noob bs pilot, but a pilot who has spec'd in bs's, ummm, no. Better bring some backup for that one, but then again I don't see a whole lot of change, curse will still be a nice ship, but at least now it will be used in squads instead of soloing. As far as pilgrim goes, it's fine, it's a force recon, not combat. Read description that is on all force recons, it's purpose is to infiltrate, reconisance and capitol ship deployment, not combat recon. Though I do like that the devs are changing faction specific nos boats to include neuts. As a gallente pilot, yes this hurts, but doesn't make my ships junk, just means I might actually fit guns to it (with at least 1 neut of course) As far as the new khanid. I could post something on this, but I know after I do not many people will read it save for the ones that are liking the change. Personally I don't fly amarr and the new sac is looking sweet. Why because I fly Caldari and Gallente, sac is awesome. Don't say blah blah blah I shouldn't have to learn split weapon systems. I have an answer, don't and don't use khanid ships. If I don't want to learn drone skills then I don't learn them or fly the drone boats for gallente. If I don't want to learn rails for certain caldari ships then I don't learn it and don't use the rail boats.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.10 09:25:00 - [1532] Originally by: Fager Once upon a time there where Ravens using 2x MWDs. CCP realised this must not be, so they nerfed Caldaris Mass and Agility. Then they Nerfed the 2x MWD. Today Caldari are a slow race, often compared to station batteries. Caldari boats already had a lower speed and higher mass before the dual MWD ravens, they have them since the beggining. It's to give gallente ships a decent chance of catching them. Design-wise, if one race has both the long-range racial trait and the fastest one, how are you supposed to beat them? That's why caldari boats are generally the slowest (and also why they have the longest base sensor range). ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.10 09:32:00 - [1533] Originally by: Darius Amir I know if this has been said before but I have a few issues with the new ships (Sacrilege). I'm not going to go on and on about how I have to give up my 5.1 million sp in gunnery and train up missiles if I want to keep flying my ship that I have been using up to now. I have a few questions: 1) Speed: Why is this ship slower then Zealot? The Sacrilege is required to use close range weapons (Heavy Assault Missiles) while the Zealot can choose between long and short ranges (Beam and Pulse Lasers)? I think the ship needs to go faster then the Zealot but slower then the Vagabond. 2) Low Slots: Why does this ship have 5 low slots while the Maller has 6 and the Zealot has 7? If the Sacrilege is supposed to be a heavy tanker why does it have so few low slots? No other HAC has less low/mid/high slots then its base model. Why does the Sacrilege? This ship needs at least as many low slots as its base model, but I feel it needs 7 lows if it is supposed to be the tanking pure close range HAC. 3) Weapons: Why did the Sacrilege become a pure missile platform all of a sudden? Again no other HAC has its main weapons change so drastically from base to HAC level. A Vexor (drone boat) becomes an Ishtar (drone boat); A Caracal (Missile Boat) becomes a Cerberus (Missile Boat), and so on, and so on. I know none of this will probably even get looked at by a Dev, but I had to say something. I feel like I have wasted a lot of time training Amarr. I know that they said they were going to fix lasers but a lot of us have been waiting for them to fix lasers for a long time and then we get this change? 1. Dunno why its slower than a Zealot, but it just got a lot faster and considerably lighter than it used to be. It's much faster than the Caldari missile platforms, which means it can actually get in range to use its HAMs. Either way, it's faster than most of the opposing cruiser force, including the poor (even shorter ranged) Deimos. 2. Take a look at its ungodly tanking bonuses. It's got the Amarrian T2 armor resists, plus 25%. Effectively another EANM II with maxed skills, and that bonus isn't stacking nerfed. The Zealot might be able to fit a tougher tank by using all its lows for it, but the stacking penalties will probably swing the tide in the Sac's favor. The built in EANM definitely gives it a large edge over the Maller, as does its huge bonuses to Exp/Kin resists, armor's traditional holes. Add in 33% more cap/second (25% to cap recharge equates to that) and no cap spent on weapons fire, and all that goes to the MWD and the tank. 3. They decided to go with Armor Tanking Missile Spammers as opposed to Shield Tanking Laser Boats. It's a little wierd, but it avoids the usual complications with a split weapons system. Better a focused (perhaps overly specialized) ship than one that lacks direction entirely. Even gets better DPS on cruiser-size targets and above with this change. Ran the numbers a few pages back. I gotta say, I would hate Shield Tanking Laser Boats, you end up with the worst problems of Amarrian lasers combined with all the reasons that Caldari don't pvp (can't tank and tackle). And both because it shield tanks and because it's Amarr, it would be very CPU gimped. This is NOT the 'Amarr Boost' or the 'Laser Boost'. They're still working on that, bit by bit. Someone a few hundred posts back called it the 'Khanid Unsuckification'. I would call it the 'Khanid Specialization'. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.10 09:50:00 - [1534] Originally by: Kaben anti-support support, this doesn't mean, bs killer of doom, maybe a 4 week old noob bs pilot, but a pilot who has spec'd in bs's, ummm, no. Better bring some backup for that one,... So a BS can be only countered by other BS and can also counter a numerous amount of other ships but if other ships can do the same it is "wrong"? Yeah, right. Quote: but then again I don't see a whole lot of change, curse will still be a nice ship, but at least now it will be used in squads instead of soloing. The problem with the curse is that it is not good in med+ sized gangs. The other recons are. Its limited gang usability was balanced by its increased solo usability. Quote: As far as pilgrim goes, it's fine, it's a force recon, not combat. Read description that is on all force recons, it's purpose is to infiltrate, reconisance and capitol ship deployment, not combat recon. And it has dps boni because....? Force recons have a combat role. Having a reconnaissance role does not exclude that. Its like saying that BS should only be good for fleet combat. Their description says that they are weaker there than combat recons, not useless.
Kaben	Posted - 2007.08.10 10:12:00 - [1535] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Kaben anti-support support, this doesn't mean, bs killer of doom, maybe a 4 week old noob bs pilot, but a pilot who has spec'd in bs's, ummm, no. Better bring some backup for that one,... So a BS can be only countered by other BS and can also counter a numerous amount of other ships but if other ships can do the same it is "wrong"? Yeah, right. Quote: but then again I don't see a whole lot of change, curse will still be a nice ship, but at least now it will be used in squads instead of soloing. The problem with the curse is that it is not good in med+ sized gangs. The other recons are. Its limited gang usability was balanced by its increased solo usability. Quote: As far as pilgrim goes, it's fine, it's a force recon, not combat. Read description that is on all force recons, it's purpose is to infiltrate, reconisance and capitol ship deployment, not combat recon. And it has dps boni because....? Force recons have a combat role. Having a reconnaissance role does not exclude that. Its like saying that BS should only be good for fleet combat. Their description says that they are weaker there than combat recons, not useless. 1: No a bs shouldn't only be counterable by a bs, but these are anti supports supports, not uber killer. 2: not good in med sized gangs, strange how I always see it in med sized gangs, oh well, the ones doing it must be idiots. The prob is it can solo, and not just good, it can solo quite well compared to others in its class and not even quite well, extremely well. btw completely depleting your enemys cap in a gang isn't helpful to the gang. IDK about that, I would think this is a very helpful tactic for the gang. especially when going against super tanked ships in which cap is keeping it alive. BTW I have friends that use curse, they have said it is still viable in solo pvp with nos change. 3: saying what you just said states that bs's should be used in frig killing. BTW where does it state in bs description that its only a fleet ship, I didn't see this anywhere. Read the description in force recons. Or better yet I'll post it for visability. Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconaissance vessels very effectively, due in no small part to their ability to interface with covert ops cloaking devices and set up cynosural fields for incoming capital ships. where is the part that says it's a combat vessle? I see lots of stuff in here more designed around logistics than combat. Now lets look at combat recon shall we? Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds. Filling a role next to their class counterpart, the heavy assault ship, combat recon ships are the state of the art when it comes to anti-support support. They are also devastating adversaries in smaller skirmishes, possessing strong defensive capabilities in addition to their electronic superiority. Look at that, lots of combat related stuffage in there.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.10 14:33:00 - [1536] Originally by: Kaben 1: No a bs shouldn't only be counterable by a bs, but these are anti supports supports, not uber killer. Exept the ship falvour text in nothing which is relyable and quite often completely wrong. Take for example the text of the damnation: The Khanid KingdomÆs ships possess the most advanced shield generators available outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems. Their armor and hull, however, are rather weak and hard to modify. This is on the command ship with the WORST shield of all and the BEST armortank. Or, the myrmidon, the tier 2 BC which has the HIGHEST dps of all of them: Worried that their hot-shot pilots would burn brightly in their eagerness to engage the enemy, the Federation Navy created a ship that encourages caution over foolhardiness. A hardier version of its counterpart, the Myrmidon is a ship designed to persist in battle... Quote: 2: not good in med sized gangs, strange how I always see it in med sized gangs, oh well, the ones doing it must be idiots. The prob is it can solo, and not just good, it can solo quite well compared to others in its class and not even quite well, extremely well. Yes, and in larger gangs it sucks compared to others in its class, and it sucks quite a lot. Its energy warfare ability is pointless when targets die before they run out of cap. Its EW capabilities are suppar to the gallente and caldari recons. Minamatar recons are better speed gang counters. Gallente and minmatar recons have better dps. Better solo performance <-> worse fleet performance. Quote: 3: saying what you just said states that bs's should be used in frig killing. It doesn't. They can however be used quite well for cruiser killing. But a cruiser killing a BS cannot be allowed according to your reasoning. Quote: Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconaissance vessels very effectively, due in no small part to their ability to interface with covert ops cloaking devices and set up cynosural fields for incoming capital ships. where is the part that says it's a combat vessle? I see lots of stuff in here more designed around logistics than combat. Where is the part it says it doesn't? It shows you one role of it. it does not tell you thats the only thing they can do. Guess what all force recons but the falcon have? A damage bonus. Why do you think they have it? Obviously because they are logistics based, right? Your problem is that you are looking at the falvor text not on the ship bonuses and stats. Its like looking at the advertising of something instead looking at what it DOES.
Yulai Consulting	Posted - 2007.08.10 14:51:00 - [1537] I just hope the Retrib will have one more mid slot for those amarr that wont play with the missile boat...
Richard Masterson Generals Of Destruction Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.10 18:52:00 - [1538] Just want to point out some problems that I see with the Khanid Mk II changes; no whining here. . . Malediction: *Max targeting range - 18500m(1.25)=23125m I have a problem with the "tackler" variety of interceptor not even being able to use a 24km scram to the fullest extent. Yes, realistically you would not be able to maintain that distance, but you should be able to fly at the edge of the envelope without worry of losing your lock. 5% bonus to rocket damage per FF level All well and good when you are under 10km from the target, but it is considered terrible practice to fly within 10 km of a ship that you are tackling, for fear of being webbed. While a pilot doesn't HAVE to fit rockets, they are losing their bonus if they fit standards. Even if they do fit rockets, they will realistically do no damage, because they will always fly out of range. Please consider a dual rocket/standard missile bonus. Vengeance: 5% bonus to rocket damage per Amarr FF level** If this ship is to not field beam lasers or standard missiles (thus extending its range), I would suggest a speed bonus in order to allow it to close within rocket range. OR, possibly give it a MWD cap bonus a-la Thorax, instead of the cap recharge bonus. Sacrilege: Again, not fast enough to dictate range. I only fly the Malediction, but I can tell you that if these changes go through as-is, I'd rather go back to flying a Stiletto. Oodles of lock range and CPU make for more versatility.
SouthernComfort45	Posted - 2007.08.10 21:56:00 - [1539] Wow, it's good to see that the intended Amarr buff was coupled with a complete nerf of the only good Amarr ships, the Curse and Pilgrim. Great job CCP, maybe now you could reduce cap usage of lasers, you know, a real improvement to Amarr ships, instead of mildly nerfing nos domi/nos myrm setups while completely destroying the Amarr recon ships. Gallente pilots will adapt, being that their ships have good dps from blasters and drones, but their won't be an easy adaptation for the Curse/Pilgrim. As for the missile setups on Khanid ships, I'm intrigued, except for the fact that I have almost no missile skills.
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:43:00 - [1540] mabey change talismans to amount able to drain? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected])

PAcifisti Paisti	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:17:00 - [1541] Some people seem to forget that even HAM's have a long range t2 version that go easily to 50km and above with good supports. Ofc they come with lower dmg but isn't that how EVE works anyways? More range = less dmg. I wouldn't whine for rangebonuses since I would dump the rangebonuses on caldari ships for a simple all dmg bonus on missileships (just like the ones you're getting soon). Goddamn kinetic, the highest baseresistances are always in kinetic and it has to be the "natural" dmg of caldari As a caldari pilot I welcome the nosnerf, now our shieldtanked and cap dependant ships might actually do something as they wont be nossed empty straight away. Curse and pilgrim will find their own place as they where way too overpowered before ( what other recon could take and kill bs in 1 vs 1 ? rook / falcon? lawl dps. Lachesis / arazu? perhaps with damps and long range scram if you are faster than your target, will take insanely long time though. Huginn / rapier? Hardly ) You can never understand the Pain
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 08:31:00 - [1542] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Kaben anti-support support, this doesn't mean, bs killer of doom, maybe a 4 week old noob bs pilot, but a pilot who has spec'd in bs's, ummm, no. Better bring some backup for that one,... So a BS can be only countered by other BS and can also counter a numerous amount of other ships but if other ships can do the same it is "wrong"? Yeah, right. Come on mate you know better than that...Yes, a Battleship should only be counterable by another Battleship or something larger in solo combat. Team that Curse up with say a Zealot and you have a good fight on your hands vs. a solo (not some noob NPC'er) Battleship. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 08:42:00 - [1543] Originally by: Wyliee for all of you that complain that a force recon shouldnt be able to solo kill a battleship - why the hell not? takes a lot longer to learn to use and much more skill points. I really don't buy that. Sure you see 3 month old characters in Battleships, but to seriously solo in one (as you are referring to with the force recon) you need a good year + of training. Hell, it's taken me two years of dedicated training to perfect one particular setup (Blasterthron), after 3.5 years there are still skills I can train further if I wanted to improve a Railgun setup/EW and I haven't even begun to branch out into Tech 2 ships or considered cross-training for other races ships... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.11 09:15:00 - [1544] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Come on mate you know better than that...Yes, a Battleship should only be counterable by another Battleship or something larger in solo combat. Why? Because it is OMG..a BATTLESHIP? It is just a shipclass. And there are multiple other cruisers which can kill battleships solo, the vagabond or the ishtar come into mind.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:45:00 - [1545] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gabriel Karade Come on mate you know better than that...Yes, a Battleship should only be counterable by another Battleship or something larger in solo combat. Why? Because it is OMG..a BATTLESHIP? It is just a shipclass. And there are multiple other cruisers which can kill battleships solo, the vagabond or the ishtar come into mind. In short - yes. It's two ship classes up, that's just the way it is. Lone Battleships are still vulnerable to smaller classes, just you need to (well, duh) bring more than one and fight with coordination. And I'm talking in general terms here, not some nub in a Battleship, not some highly-strung setup with huge drawbacks (fleet sniper anyone?), just a general purpose all-round-balanced-setup Battleship flown by a competent pilot - it should not be even a moderately difficult task to take on, it should be bloody difficult if not damn near suicidal in something that, at the end of the day, is simply a cruiser. Sure other cruisers can kill a Battleship solo, but generally it required that, it be a specific flawed setup, a noob pilot or someone making a huge mistake. The Curse simply had it too easy (disabling turrets/capacitor and speed tanking) - now it doesn't. Oh noes!...the sky is falling... (or not, if you just bring a buddy along in say a Zealot, or maybe even a Sacrilege for the whole go go! team khanid!! thing...) ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:10:00 - [1546] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Sure other cruisers can kill a Battleship solo, but generally it required that, it be a specific flawed setup, a noob pilot or someone making a huge mistake. The Curse simply had it too easy (disabling turrets/capacitor and speed tanking) - now it doesn't. Yes, now(in the near future) it will simply suck.
Xyton Zatnox	Posted - 2007.08.11 17:05:00 - [1547] Don't bring this bull.sh.it patch to tranquility. There are many possible solutions to NOS, this solution sucks balls... Which dev offered this solution?
Kaben	Posted - 2007.08.11 17:16:00 - [1548] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Kaben anti-support support, this doesn't mean, bs killer of doom, maybe a 4 week old noob bs pilot, but a pilot who has spec'd in bs's, ummm, no. Better bring some backup for that one,... So a BS can be only countered by other BS and can also counter a numerous amount of other ships but if other ships can do the same it is "wrong"? Yeah, right. Come on mate you know better than that...Yes, a Battleship should only be counterable by another Battleship or something larger in solo combat. Team that Curse up with say a Zealot and you have a good fight on your hands vs. a solo (not some noob NPC'er) Battleship. This was exactly my point, solo vs a player who has spec'd bs, you should have one hell of a fight on your hands. bring a friend or two and yeah, bs pilot should start sweating.
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.11 20:55:00 - [1549] Originally by: Xyton Zatnox Don't bring this bull.sh.it patch to tranquility. There are many possible solutions to NOS, this solution sucks balls... Which dev offered this solution? Its not like CCP reads through the forums esp on a 54 page post; let alone actually listen to the community and reconsider the changes. They will implement the Nos changes no matter what anyone says sadly. I've been considering playing another game now that after this patch my charecter can only fly 1/2 of the ships it could once fly. Even with 3 NOS on my Abaddon the guns outdid the NOS so whats the point now if NOs wont allow me to steal cap 100% of the time most Amarr Laser ships will be at a disadvantage vs all the other races that didnt relaly need cap anyways to shoot. The Curse and Pilgrim will suck and those were 2 of the only ships that were worth flying. I wish CCP would reconsider the NOS changes and find a better way. There are so many alternatives its rediculous. _________________________________________
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:33:00 - [1550] Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's two ship classes up, that's just the way it is. Exept it isn't. A dreadnaught is also a shipclass up from a BS and cannot really do anything vs them. Ship are not balanced in eve by "the higher you get the bigger the solopwnpower becomes". All ships are more or less specialists with certain strengths and certain weaknesses.

Kaben	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:09:00 - [1551] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's two ship classes up, that's just the way it is. Exept it isn't. A dreadnaught is also a shipclass up from a BS and cannot really do anything vs them. Ship are not balanced in eve by "the higher you get the bigger the solopwnpower becomes". All ships are more or less specialists with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. So a friend of mine, who is spec'd amarr bs, yes I mean spec'd, he has rank 5 bs, 7mil sp in gunnery, alot in mechanics, armageddon tanked out got shot at by a phoenix, one volley and he had 2/3rds of his armor left. Guess he just got unlucky right? good thing he was close to a station before the second volley hit, although loosing a geddon isn't really to big of a loss, but the point is there. Did he have his tank on, no, but he was thinking the same thing you are, dreadnoughts shouldn't do that much damage to a bs, good lesson that was well learned.
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:50:00 - [1552] Edited by: Zaethiel on 12/08/2007 01:52:35 Originally by: Kaben Edited by: Kaben on 11/08/2007 23:13:51 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's two ship classes up, that's just the way it is. Exept it isn't. A dreadnaught is also a shipclass up from a BS and cannot really do anything vs them. Ship are not balanced in eve by "the higher you get the bigger the solopwnpower becomes". All ships are more or less specialists with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. So a friend of mine, who is spec'd amarr bs, yes I mean spec'd, he has rank 5 bs, 7mil sp in gunnery, alot in mechanics, armageddon tanked out got shot at by a phoenix, one volley and he had 2/3rds of his armor left. Guess he just got unlucky right? good thing he was close to a station before the second volley hit, although loosing a geddon isn't really to big of a loss, but the point is there. Did he have his tank on, no, but he was thinking the same thing you are, dreadnoughts shouldn't do that much damage to a bs, good lesson that was well learned. Unless you mean a dread in seige mode, though I don't see why a dread would go into seige mode for bs's, unless they hads sensor damps. #1 Phoenix is the only Dread that can actually directly attack a BS with succes. The rest just cant hit it. #2 For the Phoanix to do decent damage to a BS it needs to be painted and the BS has to be webbed or sitting still. #3 Your friends an idiot for letting a Phoenix shoot him let alone let one web and paint him and even dumber if he was sitting still at an undock point. #4 The dread must be in siege which means your friend had 10 minutes to get a gang together to kill him. _________________________________________
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.12 06:07:00 - [1553] So when are the changes coming to the main server? I'd like to fly the sacrilege now please =P --- Put in space whales!
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:50:00 - [1554] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's two ship classes up, that's just the way it is. Exept it isn't. A dreadnaught is also a shipclass up from a BS and cannot really do anything vs them. Ship are not balanced in eve by "the higher you get the bigger the solopwnpower becomes". All ships are more or less specialists with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. Yes congrats on snipping the near entirety of my post, thus losing the message. Yes, a Battleship should not, on average, lose 1 vs. 1 to a cruiser-sized platform, you have to bring more than one cruiser and then, you're talking about a fight - HAC plus Recon duo I keep mentioning that you keep ignoring. The Dreadnaught example you brought up just further illustrates the point, it might not do much to the Battleship, but it's never ever going to lose 1 vs 1 to a Battleship - it shouldn't, it's a much bigger, slower, less mobile (immobile most of the time) target that attracts lots of fire - in short it has it's own host of vulnerabilities over the smaller class, and you can use the same logic as for the Recon vs. Battleship argument. Hence, why a Recon should never have it 'easy', or even 'moderate' trying to solo a Battleship (remember û talking normal balanced setups here with a competent Battleship pilot). The Curse had it too good, now it doesnÆt have it quite as good û bring a buddy in a Sacrilege if youÆre going to seriously try to take down a competently flown Battleship, or be stubborn and try it solo with reduced odds of success. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:57:00 - [1555] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Gabriel Karade It's two ship classes up, that's just the way it is. Exept it isn't. A dreadnaught is also a shipclass up from a BS and cannot really do anything vs them. Ship are not balanced in eve by "the higher you get the bigger the solopwnpower becomes". All ships are more or less specialists with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. Yes congrats on snipping the near entirety of my post, thus losing the message. Yes, a Battleship should not, on average, lose 1 vs. 1 to a cruiser-sized platform, you have to bring more than one cruiser and then, you're talking about a fight - HAC plus Recon duo I keep mentioning that you keep ignoring. The Dreadnaught example you brought up just further illustrates the point, it might not do much to the Battleship, but it's never ever going to lose 1 vs 1 to a Battleship - it shouldn't, it's a much bigger, slower, less mobile (immobile most of the time) target that attracts lots of fire - in short it has it's own host of vulnerabilities over the smaller class, and you can use the same logic as for the Recon vs. Battleship argument. Hence, why a Recon should never have it 'easy', or even 'moderate' trying to solo a Battleship (remember û talking normal balanced setups here with a competent Battleship pilot). The Curse had it too good, now it doesnÆt have it quite as good û bring a buddy in a Sacrilege if youÆre going to seriously try to take down a competently flown Battleship, or be stubborn and try it solo with reduced odds of success. Thats idiotic. Than nerf to hell the myrm because can kill a BS alone, and the artrate need to be completly removed from the game :P
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:28:00 - [1556] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Yes congrats on snipping the near entirety of my post, thus losing the message. Yes, a Battleship should not, on average, lose 1 vs. 1 to a cruiser-sized platform, you have to bring more than one cruiser and then, you're talking about a fight - HAC plus Recon duo I keep mentioning that you keep ignoring. The Dreadnaught example you brought up just further illustrates the point, it might not do much to the Battleship, but it's never ever going to lose 1 vs 1 to a Battleship - it shouldn't, it's a much bigger, slower, less mobile (immobile most of the time) target that attracts lots of fire - in short it has it's own host of vulnerabilities over the smaller class, and you can use the same logic as for the Recon vs. Battleship argument. Hence, why a Recon should never have it 'easy', or even 'moderate' trying to solo a Battleship (remember û talking normal balanced setups here with a competent Battleship pilot). The Curse had it too good, now it doesnÆt have it quite as good û bring a buddy in a Sacrilege if youÆre going to seriously try to take down a competently flown Battleship, or be stubborn and try it solo with reduced odds of success. Which message? Bigger = better? Because that is essentially all what you are saying. To repeat myself, why? BSs are not more exepensive or skillintensive than t2 cruisers. The only argumentation you bring is "because they are battleships" like if that is some rule of nature. Basically, you are only saying "It is so because I say it is", a.k.a. "hot air". You are stating your opinion and try to sell it as a rule. Which it isn't. There are plenty of examples where a single smaller, more agile entity can alone kill a bigger, better armored and more powerful one, both ingame and in real life. Real life examples would be a submarine vs a battleship or a anti-tank infantry against a battletank. Or ingame, a vaga, nanoishtar or nanocurse vs battleships. The disadvantage of these entities is that they are specialized, there are not of much use outside the area they are good in. The eve examples do not work well vs multiple oponents and do not have a very good performance in gangs - unlike other ships, amongst them battleships. I could with exactly the same argumentation (aka none) as you simply state that battleships should only work if they fly with an escort to defend it against smaller ships.
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.12 18:29:00 - [1557] Edited by: Zaethiel on 12/08/2007 18:30:13 For the last god knows how many pages this thread has been rather offtopic with the whole blah blah this shouldnt be able to solo this blah blah Bull S. If Bigger = Better then no one would fly anything other than BS. The fact that a HAC or Recon can solo a crappy BS pilot makes the game a lot more interesting. Put that arguement to rest please. Cant we just get back to *****ing about the MK2 and Nos changes? It is the current thread topic and it really is a serious issue. _________________________________________
Dash Vanderhuge	Posted - 2007.08.12 18:45:00 - [1558] Edited by: Dash Vanderhuge on 12/08/2007 18:48:27 I don't like the nosferatu change at all. Augmenting your own cap was most of the point of nosferatus, and draining the other guy's was a secondary, in my eyes. This change makes nos ineffective at both of those jobs, since it won't be able to drain much cap, and it won't reliably boost your own. Even if the developers are dead-set on those changes, CCP should at the very least consider adjusting the fitting requirements for energy neutralizers, as they are currently prohibitively high. Edit: I also just recently got a character into a Curse/Pilgrim. The Pilgrim became less useful when the changes to ECM hit, since it lost most of its defensive capabilities. Now with nos being so severely nerfed, both the Curse and the Pilgrim will be much, much less useful. Please adjust them somehow to keep Amarr recons from being far and away the worst in the game.
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:45:00 - [1559] Originally by: Dash Vanderhuge Edited by: Dash Vanderhuge on 12/08/2007 18:48:27 I don't like the nosferatu change at all. Augmenting your own cap was most of the point of nosferatus, and draining the other guy's was a secondary, in my eyes. This change makes nos ineffective at both of those jobs, since it won't be able to drain much cap, and it won't reliably boost your own. Even if the developers are dead-set on those changes, CCP should at the very least consider adjusting the fitting requirements for energy neutralizers, as they are currently prohibitively high. Edit: I also just recently got a character into a Curse/Pilgrim. The Pilgrim became less useful when the changes to ECM hit, since it lost most of its defensive capabilities. Now with nos being so severely nerfed, both the Curse and the Pilgrim will be much, much less useful. Please adjust them somehow to keep Amarr recons from being far and away the worst in the game. Funny thing is the Curse was really the only Amarr ship best in its class. Every other class is taken by Gallente and Mimataar. After the Nos change Gallente will be back to having the best recon. These Nos changes are lame. So many better ways to nerf Nos rather than completely anihilate its usefullness. _________________________________________
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:01:00 - [1560] Experiment on Damnation Skills - Gunnery V Missile Launcher V Medium Energy Turret IV Heavy Assault Missile IV Motion Prediction IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Rapid Fire IV Rapid Launch IV Surgical Strike IV Ware-head Upgrades IV These skills (Gunnery First then Missiles) are the skills that make each weapon equal in terms of skills. I have these skills on the test server. Setup, 5 HAM Missiles and Terror Missile, 2 Heavy Pulse Lasers and Multifreq Lens Damage report Torrent Missile damage on a Serpentis Watchman - Low Point - 59.7 damage Torrent Missile damage on a Serpentis Watchman - High Point - 62.2 damage Heavy Pulse Laser damage on a Serpentis Watchman - Low Point - 49.4 damage (Barley scratch shot) Heavy Pulse Laser damage on a Serpentis Watchman - High Point - 75.1 damage (Wasn't any "type" of shot) Log of shots [ 2007.08.12 19:09:01 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Terror Assault Missile hits Serpentis Watchman, doing 59.7 damage. [ 2007.08.12 19:09:01 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Terror Assault Missile hits Serpentis Watchman, doing 62.2 damage. [ 2007.08.12 19:08:59 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Heavy Pulse Laser I barely scratches Serpentis Watchman, causing 49.4 damage. [ 2007.08.12 19:08:59 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Heavy Pulse Laser I hits Serpentis Watchman, doing 75.1 damage. It's a shame I didn't get a wreaking shot.... Pulse Laser stats OUT OF THE BOX - Rate of fire, 5.25 Seconds Range - 4000m Falloff, 10,000 Optimal. - Multifeq lens 50% reduction. - Effective range - 2,000m Falloff, 5,000m Optimal - 7,000m Heavy Assault Launcher OUT OF THE BOX - Rate of fire 8.00 Seconds Range - 2,250m/s for 3 seconds. 6,750m Pulse lasers Shoot faster, do more damage have greater range.. Why in EVE would anyone want to give up SO MUCH... it's ridiculous. Leave us have our Turrets at least! Don't remove any Turret slots PLEASE.... ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!

Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:30:00 - [1561] If im not mistaken Serpentis are weak vs Therm and Kin. You used EM missiles with EM + Therm Crystals. Try shooting an object with 0 resists and see what they do. All in all the new changes to MK2 wih HAMs are worse off than if they left them alone. Without being able to armor tank + fit damage mods Caldari ships will be extremely more effective DPS wise than the new MK2 ships. I want my Lasers back too. _________________________________________
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:05:00 - [1562] Actually, they used terror missiles according to the quotes, and those are kinetic. I don't know why they said torrent above that. I'm guessing the log quotes are more accurate.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.13 01:33:00 - [1563] Edited by: Aramendel on 13/08/2007 01:34:53 Originally by: SencneS Pulse lasers Shoot faster, do more damage have greater range.. Why in EVE would anyone want to give up SO MUCH... it's ridiculous. Actually HAMs have a greater range, you ignore that you get a FAR greater range bonus from skills for missiles compared to turrets. You get effective ranges of 13k for t1 and 60k for t2 jav hams. The HAM damnation has below 12k worse dps than a (current with +50% range bonus) pulse damnation, but above that better dps. And it can also boost that dps more efficiently with damage mods. Originally by: Zaethiel Without being able to armor tank + fit damage mods Caldari ships will be extremely more effective DPS wise than the new MK2 ships. Not a fair comparsion. A cerb has after MWD, scram & injector 2 free slots free for a tank. A sacriledge has after 3 damagemods also 2 free slots for a tank. After those modules the cerb has 1 free low for a damage control or PDU and the damnation 1 feee med for a web or cap recharger. Althogether I would say they are pretty well balanced vs each other.
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.13 04:44:00 - [1564] Edited by: SencneS on 13/08/2007 04:44:51 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 13/08/2007 01:34:53 Originally by: SencneS Pulse lasers Shoot faster, do more damage have greater range.. Why in EVE would anyone want to give up SO MUCH... it's ridiculous. Actually HAMs have a greater range, you ignore that you get a FAR greater range bonus from skills for missiles compared to turrets. You get effective ranges of 13k for t1 and 60k for t2 jav hams. The HAM damnation has below 12k worse dps than a (current with +50% range bonus) pulse damnation, but above that better dps. And it can also boost that dps more efficiently with damage mods. LOL thank you for this because I wanted to wait until someone posted about the Almighty range of the HAM missile with skills. T1 missiles the Range is 13,500 with level IV skills (I have these as well) What is a real joke here and the reason why I wanted to wait is because I can fit... HEAVY BEAM LASERS! Out of the box stats for Heavy Beam Laser Rate of Fire - 6.000s Optimal Range - 20,000 Fall off - 8,000 With skills it's range is - 33,600, Using Multifreq Lenses - 14,800 That's a good 1km longer then a HAM Missile with skills. So it shoots faster then HAM, has longer Range then HAM (This is not including the Current Damnation's 5% bonus to Optimal Range per level) It can actually shoot up-wards of 70km without mods and rigs. (Radio M Lenses) Still has higher DPS then a HAM. So thank you Aramendel for pointing out the superior range of the HAM missile Come again! Edit:- Spelling ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.13 07:20:00 - [1565] Yes, and you'll be doing oh so much damage with those Radio M crystals. . . Javelin sacrifices a good bit less DPS. Damnation may be kinda borked, but the Sac is actually improved in terms of DPS over its old version. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.13 09:11:00 - [1566] Edited by: Aramendel on 13/08/2007 09:13:44 Originally by: SencneS That's a good 1km longer then a HAM Missile with skills. So it shoots faster then HAM, has longer Range then HAM (This is not including the Current Damnation's 5% bonus to Optimal Range per level) It can actually shoot up-wards of 70km without mods and rigs. (Radio M Lenses) Still has higher DPS then a HAM. Actually, nope. A HAM with the 25% damage bonus of the damnation and jav hams does 32.4 dps per launcher with t2 launchers and maxed skills (spec at 4). 38 dps with t1 ammo. A heavy beam does with conflag 36.2 dps. 85 (jav hams) * 1.25 (HAM skill bonus) * 1.25 (damnation bonus) * 1.1 (warhead upgrades) /6.4 (t2 ROF) /0.9 (missle launcher op) /0.85 (rapid launch) / 0.92 (HAM spec 4) -> 32.4 3.6 (HB damage mod) * 28 (gleam) * 1.25 (med laser) * 1.15 (surgical) * 1.08 (spec at 4) / 6 (ROF) /0.9 (gunnery) / 0.8 (rapid fire) -> 36.2. Heavy beams outdamage HAMs only between 13-16k. And this is WITH the range bonus. Which is 50% btw, not 25%. The description is wrong, if you fit lasers on it you get a 50% rangebonus on them. Before that t1 HAMs outdamage HB with gleam and above that jav HAMS do the same since its falloff will have reduced its dps. They only start to outdamage them again past 60k. And then you can use HEAVY MISSILE LAUNCHERS. Yes, you'll loose the HAM damage bonus. But HM still outdamage beams without it at that range. ------------ That being said, the damnation HAS problems, but not because of the HAMs. But because of its grid reduction. It is nice and fine if you want to use it as weapon plattform, but if you use it as gang bonus ship it runs into problems due to warfare links using 200 grid.
Rinaldo Titano Caldari Domus Fatalis FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:34:00 - [1567] Maybe is possible to get an answer on a 55 page thread from devs pls? If u think to change something or what conclusion u made from the response, etc. Pls communicate with your customers [IMG SRC="http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9741/rinaldo2ir8.jpg"]
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.13 15:37:00 - [1568] Does anyone know when the patch is coming out that includes the NOS+Khanid changes? --- Put in space whales!
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:21:00 - [1569] Can you hurry up and release the patch? I'd like to enjoy PvP a bit for once. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:02:00 - [1570] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Can you hurry up and release the patch? I'd like to enjoy PvP a bit for once. Your sig says your an amarr pilot... Itd be better if they shot the Dev that came up with the idea and never release the patch. 1/2 of the Amarr ships are getting downgraded and 2 of the best Amarr ships are geting nerfed beyond uselessness. _________________________________________

Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:07:00 - [1571] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Does anyone know when the patch is coming out that includes the NOS+Khanid changes? The dev blog about the tourney states it will be at the 31st august partly because they want to do it after the rev 2.2 patch (which is the one with the current changes). So its sometime between now and the 30th. I would guess either on the 21st or 28th.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.13 21:02:00 - [1572] The new Damnation Stats and Boni are awesome. Just awesome. More Grid then i ever can spend on Lasers, more Hitpoints then... oh. forget it. its all balanced now! shhhhh... ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! ~~-Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot~~ -Omen: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus ~~-Zealot: +10% more golden hull~~
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:48:00 - [1573] Yep, I'm Amarr and I'm really looking forward to this patch for two reasons: Khanid changes and nos nerf. Imagine that! --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Bellac	Posted - 2007.08.14 09:03:00 - [1574] hmmm - well I have to say I am not sure about the cambat logic of the damnation bonuses - but I wonder if anyone with more experience could offer some feedback. I dont see the logic behind having a really big slow ship, and giving it a bonus to missiles with a 10km range. OK it can withstand the pounding, but surely will never be able to keep in range of any target long enough to do any sustained damage. If the bonus is supposed to be heavy/assault missiles then thats really no problem but if its assault only I really do not see this working out at all, and would rather stick with lasers.
Mr Smooth	Posted - 2007.08.14 11:47:00 - [1575] So, having heard nothing from CCP for ages on this thread, is it safe to assume that the patch will be going ahead as initially stated at some time this month? If that is the case, taking into account all of the not-so-positive-comments in this now rather large thread, can i just ask why CCP bothered with this dev-blog? Were they expecting that everyone would say "yes CCP that is a great idea" and "please go ahead and shaft the Amarr Recons"? It would appear that CCP is going to do what it wants anyway and of course, EVE being their game, they have every right to do so. What upsets me is the fact that they "pretend" to consult with their paying customers and then totally disregard the feedback that has been offered in good faith. Come on CCP at least let us know what is happening with these proposed changes and hopefully prove me wrong.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:09:00 - [1576] Originally by: Bellac I dont see the logic behind having a really big slow ship, and giving it a bonus to missiles with a 14km range. OK it can withstand the pounding, but surely will never be able to keep in range of any target long enough to do any sustained damage. No tacklers in your gang to hold the target down for you? It's a "fleet" command ship, after all Quote: And as for reducing the powergrid by 200 - well that just makes it difficult to fit 3 gang modules if thats the way you want to go with your setup. Yup... fitting 3x gang modules on the current Damnation makes me compromise a lot... dropping the grid is going to make it tough. The devs said they were looking into things a while back... it would be nice to hear what they've found and any new ideas they may have, modified changes, etc.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:00:00 - [1577] Originally by: Mr Smooth So, having heard nothing from CCP for ages on this thread, is it safe to assume that the patch will be going ahead as initially stated at some time this month? If that is the case, taking into account all of the not-so-positive-comments in this now rather large thread, can i just ask why CCP bothered with this dev-blog? Were they expecting that everyone would say "yes CCP that is a great idea" and "please go ahead and shaft the Amarr Recons"? It would appear that CCP is going to do what it wants anyway and of course, EVE being their game, they have every right to do so. What upsets me is the fact that they "pretend" to consult with their paying customers and then totally disregard the feedback that has been offered in good faith. Come on CCP at least let us know what is happening with these proposed changes and hopefully prove me wrong. R U surpriced? I never saw other response from CCP. They make something. lot of peoples disagree, and they do it even than. They are like small childs. I would have right and right and right....... U r just a paymachine, u dont have the rights communicating with them or make suggestions. U should just pay
Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:45:00 - [1578] my guess is that these changes are going to go though no mater what. i fly amarr, and in alot of cases i think the noz fixes wil help most ammar ships, but i would like to suggest some changes. curse = stay the same..it is still usable with the noz nerf. pilgrim = needs a powergrid increase so we can now fit medium cap boosters to keep the neuts alive. zealot = loose the utility slot in high..im never gonna want to put a noz or neut there.. instead let it fit another lazer Khanid ships = stop making us use ham's. let us get bonuses to heavy missiles too. (i get the feeling that ccp brought in ham's no one liked them so they are going to try to make some use for them by forceing them on amarr pilots.)
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:56:00 - [1579] Originally by: Wyliee Khanid ships = stop making us use ham's. let us get bonuses to heavy missiles too. (i get the feeling that ccp brought in ham's no one liked them so they are going to try to make some use for them by forceing them on amarr pilots.) This is exactly what they are doing, No one liked HAM's there DMG is quite poor and there range is poor also, this is WHY no one used them even the caldari. Yet Amarr are now forced to use HAM's cause we get a bonus even though HAM's suck in general - Devs - "I know what we will do, no one likes HAM's they where are new toy, since no one likes them lets force a race to use them - I have got it! Amarr they always complain about being gimped we will give them HAM's to use and make our new toy to be put in use" - even though HAM's are POOR POOR POOR. Nice one CCP - good work
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.14 19:23:00 - [1580] Originally by: Wyliee Khanid ships = stop making us use ham's. let us get bonuses to heavy missiles too. (i get the feeling that ccp brought in ham's no one liked them so they are going to try to make some use for them by forceing them on amarr pilots.) You do realize that if they open the bonus up for HML and HAML, the damage bonus will be limited to EM only, right? The HAML only bonus (as it is currently proposed) is a bonus to all damage types, which is kind of nice and should be obvious as to why. Plus, the dev post said that they'd revisit HAMs at some point to make them 'better' somehow.

Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.14 19:25:00 - [1581] Not like it hasn't been pointed out many times already, but HAMs with the new Khanid ships' damage bonus are actually pretty nice... --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.14 19:45:00 - [1582] Damnation cap use bonus changed to a +10% per lvl armor amount bonus. This bonus is GREAT! It's fairly unique, it aligns nicely with the Amarrian backstory of thier ships being hulking chunks of floating armor, it's good racial variety, it's a noticeable difference for fights and it's not overpowering! Perfect! Now can we please get all the cap use bonuses on Khanid changed to armor amount bonuses? These are the "close range" fighting ships, and it's really a much better bonus for a close range fighter. There are so many mods that can increase cap. +Armor amount is so much better. Honestly, the last thing Amarrian ships need is another bonus to cap. Amarrians For Armor!!! Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.14 20:12:00 - [1583] Would be a bit too powerful on the sacriledge IMO.
Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.14 20:19:00 - [1584] Edited by: Nyxus on 14/08/2007 20:18:48 Originally by: Aramendel Would be a bit too powerful on the sacriledge IMO. How so? I am overall less leery of a +amount hp bonus on armor since a)you cant passively regen or permatank with it, and b) Lots of armor never killed another ship. It will let you last longer....but considering these ships will be skirting webrange unless using javs/long range T2 ammo would lead me to believe a bit more overall armor would be appropriate. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.14 20:50:00 - [1585] No, lots of armor never killed another ship, but the sacri also has lots of dps. 400-500 lots of dps. It is a shortrange ship, yes, but so is the deimos. The zealot in a pulse config also does not have a much better range either. The sacri would easily outlast these ships with an HP bonus.
Philip Stark	Posted - 2007.08.15 03:53:00 - [1586] What happaned to the armor resist bonuses on the Damnation? Over all I dont like the changes, I thought the ships were fine just the way they were, I had no problem using them, Since I could fly T2 Amarr ships ive been flying nothing but the Khanid versions. Also Devs if your going to remove turrent slots from ships then how about making the look more asymmetrical. I got into my Maldiction today and one side theres gun down to the bottom and on the other theres one up at the top, Maldiction only looked right if you had 3 guns, So please make sure ships look correct when fully fitted.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.15 07:26:00 - [1587] Originally by: Philip Stark What happaned to the armor resist bonuses on the Damnation? Over all I dont like the changes, I thought the ships were fine just the way they were, I had no problem using them, Since I could fly T2 Amarr ships ive been flying nothing but the Khanid versions. Also Devs if your going to remove turrent slots from ships then how about making the look more asymmetrical. I got into my Maldiction today and one side theres gun down to the bottom and on the other theres one up at the top, Maldiction only looked right if you had 3 guns, So please make sure ships look correct when fully fitted. Who cares about looking if the Scarli can tank a half fleet, and the Damnation now have +50 armor with +25% resist and can spam missiles from 120km :)
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.15 13:04:00 - [1588] Originally by: Nyxus Damnation cap use bonus changed to a +10% per lvl armor amount bonus. Any changes to the other Khanid Mk II ships? That change is OK but I think the grid change and the HAM only bonus were the main complaints for the Damnation (not that I don't like the +10% armor amount bonus... it fits in line with the logistic ships, notably the Augoror).
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.15 22:46:00 - [1589] just as long as we dont expand it to specialized ships in every race for every weapon - that would be no fun ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.16 00:57:00 - [1590] Pilgrim got +100 grid. How that will make it useable with the nos changes kinda escapes me though. Can fit 3 named nos/neut, named MWD, named med injector and 2 MAR2 with 16.5 grid to spare, but thats still with web & scram only 1 med for EW and the problem that it needs to invest cap to kill its targets cap AND tank. It basically got one "free" RCU. No other changes to the amarr recons, at least no visible ones.

Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.16 05:47:00 - [1591] Did you guys say the Damnation now has a +10% armor HP bonus per level? You do realize how crazy the Navy Augoror can get with armor amounts (mine is at 21,000 HP as it is). I've seen some with 90,000 armor. Now the damnation which has plenty more grid etc. gets it? That's going to be one sickening ship. --- Put in space whales!
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.08.16 14:34:00 - [1592] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/08/2007 14:35:41 Originally by: Alpha Type Excellent changes in this dev blog! The change to nos has been a long time coming, but it's a sensible, balanced approach that will go far to making nos and neuts a strategic module, rather than a no-brainer. Counter-modules have been shown time and time again to be counter-productive and unwanted on ships as we don't have a massive degree of freedom in fitting. The Khanid mk2 changes are also very welcome, and add variation to a race that has needed it badly for years now, as they have mentioned many times. A set of well-tanked close range ships is very much in line with the major aspects of the Amarr ethos, and missiles are an interesting path to vary the skills of Amarr pilots. I imagine some aspects of the changes will need tweaking, perhaps altering the curse and pilgrim's bonuses to help the preserve a niche role, whilst not being quite as overpowered as they were previously. Testing on sisi will surely give some clues as to the viabiliy and usefulness of the Khanid brand in combat, but overall the changes are promising. Please don't give into to naysayers who wish to keep a mechanic that has for too long spoiled the way battles in eve are fought; and keep faith with Khanid mark 2 for those Amarr pilots who need a bit of variation. Keep up the good work chaps! Exactly. Both the NOS fix was awaited for a very long time, and Khanid ships actually look attractive to fly now. I really can't stand minmatar inties, so i'll be training up for flying the Malediction very soon, it looks. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.16 18:04:00 - [1593] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Did you guys say the Damnation now has a +10% armor HP bonus per level? You do realize how crazy the Navy Augoror can get with armor amounts (mine is at 21,000 HP as it is). I've seen some with 90,000 armor. Now the damnation which has plenty more grid etc. gets it? That's going to be one sickening ship. From someone else's post: damnation Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile velocity and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level Command Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to armor hitpoints and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level
Veng3ance New Dawn Rising	Posted - 2007.08.17 05:00:00 - [1594] While the bonus for the 10% armor will be hotly debated. I would just like the comment and say the missile velocity bonus affecting heavy missiles instead of just heavy assaults is genius. I was afraid you were going to make us MWD around with the Damnation, and thats just no good. (btw I do like the 10% to armor though, mmmmm tanky)
Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.17 06:14:00 - [1595] i dont know about anyone else but to me the best compromise is for nos hardpoints on ships. all galante/minmatar/caldari have 1 an amarr have 2 cuase of how much cap thay use to shoot there lasers , an things like the pilgrim have 3x becuase there a nos ship. that way it will get rid of the much whined about nos domi an still keep the nos as it is an will still help in missions an pvp an w/e , an even add a sig radius boost or give it tracking.. but if the devs go thru wiht this i bet the npcs that nos in missions will be uneffected. what ccp wants to do is just silly an not thought out at all.
Kldraina	Posted - 2007.08.17 07:07:00 - [1596] Seems like the game now needs a module for quickly dumping large amounts of cap (preferably into something useful). Smartbombs could do it, but they tend to not be useful.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger	Posted - 2007.08.17 07:51:00 - [1597] Its all about Neutralizers, dude!
Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.17 08:12:00 - [1598] Originally by: Batolemaeus Its all about Neutralizers, dude! well no not if u want to drain your cap an still have somthing to nos on the enemy, if u use neuts u both emety i dont know this nerf is so silly
Kldraina	Posted - 2007.08.17 08:47:00 - [1599] It's occured to me that cap flux coils have more use now. Lower max cap means cap amount will drop to 30% fast. I imagine most will still prefer the cap power relays.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.17 12:57:00 - [1600] Originally by: Kldraina Seems like the game now needs a module for quickly dumping large amounts of cap (preferably into something useful). Smartbombs could do it, but they tend to not be useful. Shield boosters, armor repairers, and MWD seem to be pretty good at that for me

Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.17 12:59:00 - [1601] Originally by: Kldraina It's occured to me that cap flux coils have more use now. Lower max cap means cap amount will drop to 30% fast. I imagine most will still prefer the cap power relays. Yup. I agree with you... it looks like the Cap Flux modules may be useful for something other than reprocessing.
Tiberius Nero	Posted - 2007.08.17 18:33:00 - [1602] I think the Khanid changes are interesting to say the least. Would really like to see how this missile idea plays out. At least it throws some variety into the mix. I think the smaller Khanid ships will turn out to be a lot more useful. The intended NOS changes, that just does not make much sense to me.
Aeternita Amarr DRUCKWELLE Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.18 11:06:00 - [1603] i dont think the changes are that what amarr needs. ____________________ Signature currently not avialable
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.18 22:33:00 - [1604] Originally by: Aeternita i dont think the changes are that what amarr needs. They're not what Amarr needs, they're what Khanid needs. Meanwhile, Geddon had boosted CPU on Singularity. Not quite a fix to all of Amarr's problems, but it's a step in the right direction. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.19 09:29:00 - [1605] The dual armor bonus on the Damnation are exactly what it needs to fill it's role: Stay on the battlefield and survive as long as possible to continue giving it's bonuses. At last, you have a command ship that is significantly more survivable than the average half-tanked sniper battleship. And the missile velocity bonus means the Damnation pilot has a more active gamepaly in the fleet that just staring at his HP and staying away from tacklers. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
MrRon	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:55:00 - [1606] Nos nerf = worse change ever...ffs there battleships, there what every one wants to fly when they start playing eve (until the crappy cap ships came along), now a t1 frig can hold it down until his gang blob arrives, worse nerf ever. I have 6 accounts, i'm struggling to to find reasons to keep them..if CCP keep dumbing down the game i realy can see peeps leaving and just going to play a shoot them up game were skills and tactics are not required. Also thanks for nerfing another recon, my amarr ones can sit along side my falcon now, which btw sit alongside my scorp and bb which you sharfted to please all the "ooh i cant shoot,i can only fly shps with guns,how can i possible overcome this nasty jammer, i know il whine all over the forums to get it nerfed" frakin whiners..ecm for caldari ships did not need nerfeing!! grrr anyways nos nerf = bad mkay
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.19 20:22:00 - [1607] Originally by: MrRon Nos nerf = worse change ever...ffs there battleships, there what every one wants to fly when they start playing eve (until the crappy cap ships came along), now a t1 frig can hold it down until his gang blob arrives, worse nerf ever. I have 6 accounts, i'm struggling to to find reasons to keep them..if CCP keep dumbing down the game i realy can see peeps leaving and just going to play a shoot them up game were skills and tactics are not required. Also thanks for nerfing another recon, my amarr ones can sit along side my falcon now, which btw sit alongside my scorp and bb which you sharfted to please all the "ooh i cant shoot,i can only fly shps with guns,how can i possible overcome this nasty jammer, i know il whine all over the forums to get it nerfed" frakin whiners..ecm for caldari ships did not need nerfeing!! grrr anyways nos nerf = bad mkay Yeah now that solo/small gang pvp might be any fun people are gonna leave in droves. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Father Muslum	Posted - 2007.08.19 20:58:00 - [1608] don't bring this s.hi.t to tranqulity. Out of possible NOS changes, this is the worst idea ever.
Borasao Ex Coelis Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.20 00:54:00 - [1609] Lots of changes in SiSi... here's a thread that someone is trying to keep a running list: Link HAM flight time increased, NEUT fittings the same as NOS of the same size. Every race has some changes to some ships.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.08.20 04:09:00 - [1610] I would like to personally thank CCP for their revision of the damnation. Already the price is double what it was before khanid mk 2 was announced, and I now have an actual reason to make them <3.

dpatyi	Posted - 2007.08.20 11:32:00 - [1611] Khanid ships. It is good idea to make ships focused to close range fight, but WHY to make them useless for long range, why it is good taking options away? I can see many TARANIS pilots flying with railguns. that ship is intended to fight with blasters, BUT IT HAS HYBRID BONUS, AND NOT such a F##### STUPID THING LIKE BLASTER BONUS!!!!!! So the pilots got the FREEDOM to fit it close or long range! It works better close, but the decision lies within the hand of the player. That kind of freedom is why we all play this game. I have stoped training amarr cruiser.
Koronos Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.21 13:55:00 - [1612] Really really don't like the nos nerf, and the explanation for it doesn't make any sense. Its not a cap booster or a neutralizer, its a nosferatu, a vampire, stealing life to give the bloodthief strength. Omg missiles cause damage, don't use cap, are not affected by tracking or (certain degrees of) range, where's the compromise? lol. Nos are highslot, not midslot, so forget the cap recharge argument, they are an offensive weapon, and the compromise is that they don't do any damage, so you already have to use something else as well, now, you'll have to use nos, neut, AND something else, or kill your own cap and use them like less efficient neuts. Doesn't make any sense to me. And, by the way, I very rarely fly nos-heavy ships, so this is not about "omg you're killing my favorite pwnmobile". People who disagree with the nerf please try to test on sisi and report your results. Koronos If nos really are too powerful why not just make them less efficient?? Or stacking penalize their efficiency.
UnitedStatesOfAmerica	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:08:00 - [1613] I don't get it. I thought vampires are suppose to suck the life out of you and could do so till you die. "This makes the Nosferatus too powerful since there is no compromise involved." Wouldn't the compromise be you give up one of your high slots to have a Nos fitted which lowers your DPS? That's not a compromise? A Nos doesn't do much use if you can't break someones tank. Ah well, hopefully this change falls thru but most of the changes I wish didn't happen, always happen. I do wonder if this change is pretty much equal to deleting the Nos out of the game.
Kravixx	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:33:00 - [1614] Edited by: Kravixx on 21/08/2007 21:34:55 Edited by: Kravixx on 21/08/2007 21:33:33 Thanks for the amarr nerf, maybe ill just restart my measly 10 mil sp amarr character for a gallente if i want to pvp... or at least retrain guns and ships... and i dont even care about the nos thing really, its the many amarr ships were losing to missiles... edit: damn it i forgot to post as main
Johannes Alexodia	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:14:00 - [1615] uhm ive never used nos and never will. It hurts me please remove it so all us Panzies can be carebears and do water sports. In fact make PVP illegal it hurts me and ruins my fun. Freakin panzies Leave nos the way it is or Kill PVP all together In fact Shut eve down that will shut all the morons and idiots up. Make eve open only to those with Guts and a willingness to die. IN fact give the carebears there own little server with no weapons and they can mine without ever worrying about fighting. Dont Nerf nos. Nerf eve Eve is too fun to be left alone make is so dumb and boring it dies. PS: every one who ever complained about NOS. Go play something like Hello Kitty Island Adventure. It should be mundane enough and peaceful enough to keep you happy. -Signed Somone who has died by NOS, ECM, MISSILE FIRE, HYBRIDS, PROJECTILES, LASERS, RATS, OH Wait rats shoot back nerf them so they don't. And dont flame my spelling cause i cant be bothered to correct it. BTW i dont need to test the nos changes the whole explanation on it has ... N00BS cant take the heat. B Another thing. if they nerf anything else CCP should rename it Self Blizzard II. Its all the Nerfing that blizzard does that makes me hate them. Oh the Doomsday Weapon can One hit wonder my Frig can you do it so that its damage is ralative to the ship it hits so if it hits another titan it explodes but my Battleship comes out unscathed. Well if you dont like NOS the way it is QUIT!!!
Makhan	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:53:00 - [1616] Originally by: Kravixx and i dont even care about the nos thing really, its the many amarr ships were losing to missiles... Boo freaking hoo, the khanid ships were just plain horrible, now they're finally getting a defined role with with use.
Marqui De'Xentura	Posted - 2007.08.22 02:59:00 - [1617] I think that the NOS changes are a step in the right direction. This still makes them viable and it brings the Energy Neutralizers back to the table more. This should also help bring Ammar back in to play more. As for the Missile changes to Khanid ships. This is good and bad. 1 This complete screws over old players like myself that trained the 10mil in lasers with no choice but to train missiles bringing the majority in line with a brand new account. I think the other way that could balance out Ammar more would to be to keep the bonuses your proposing as far as resists and cap recharge, give some new crystals that bring some other damage types to the table. As it is now you will always know what your facing when you run up against say an Apoc or any other Ammar bship.
dpatyi	Posted - 2007.08.22 18:35:00 - [1618] Originally by: Marqui De'Xentura I think the other way that could balance out Ammar more would to be to keep the bonuses your proposing as far as resists and cap recharge, give some new crystals that bring some other damage types to the table. As it is now you will always know what your facing when you run up against say an Apoc or any other Ammar bship. Great idea! The same for hybrids!
Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.22 21:26:00 - [1619] Originally by: Marqui De'Xentura I think that the NOS changes are a step in the right direction. This still makes them viable and it brings the Energy Neutralizers back to the table more. uummm if you use neuts on the target an kill his cap an yours at the same time what are u going to nos ? lol , so far i seen 3 BETTER ideas thrown around this thread , #1 nos hardpoints on all ships , gallente,mimatar,caldari have 1 slot an amarr have 2. #2 sig raduis boost, just like MWD's if you fit 3 large nos your sig raduis is 1500 lol. #3 add tracking an stacking penalty. problem fixed ,solved, perfected w/e you wanna call it. what is on test center is completly retarted. just think of all the server side lag this will cuase. an like the guys above said its a vampire module lol , some of you guys need to watch umm buffy or somthing to understand what a vampire is LOL
galphi	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:29:00 - [1620] MISSILE RIGGINGS DON'T WORK WITH ROCKETS. Was trying out the Heretic with some missile speed rigs and they didn't seem to do anything - the max velocity read the same. Is there a reason for this, or is it an oversight? I like the focus on rockets but the range extending skills and rigs are essential to prevent webifying I humbly request you make all the missile rigs (and hey, maybe even the BCU) work with rockets, I'd hate to have to resort to using standard missiles on the heretic 'cause I can't stay far enough away from the target with rockets

Wyliee Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.23 15:02:00 - [1621] Amarr is a sad story.... for along time they have been weak because of their cap dependency. in some ways the noz nerf is going to help alot of amarr ships. i think im in the same situation as alot of ammar pilots i have alot of skill points in lazers, armor and amarr ships i am currently training battlecruiser5 for command then i will be able to fly and equipe all ammar ships well. after the patch, my recons wil be screwed and the new missle ships wil be unusable to me, because i have no missle skills at all. so im left in a situation whether to learn missles and invest 3-4 mil in them. OR train galenette ships so i can make good use of the gunnery skills i have.. after putting some info into evemon, i figured in 2 months i can fly a full t2 fitted mega. and it be honest i think i will switch and train gal soon, sad becasue i love amarr. what i want to know is... are gal ships next to be hit by the nerf stick? i would like to know b4 i waste my time training for them.
dpatyi	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:38:00 - [1622] Well, the Nos was ower-powered, thats why you guys miss it so much... There was no protection against it. It's a damage type, with 0% resist for it. But we pay to have new and new tactical options to explore, not less and less...
galphi	Posted - 2007.08.24 00:06:00 - [1623] Yeah you got that right, as long as you had a lock and were in range, nos worked. Not sure that the change was the right one to make, but we'll see how it goes. I've flown the Curse for a number of months now but I can see how overpowered it was compared to other recon ships. This change reverts it back into a support vessel, which was obviously how it was intended. I was thinking of trying out a HAC anyway, we'll just have to adapt and try new tactics folks
Vandagar	Posted - 2007.08.24 07:17:00 - [1624] Originally by: galphi Yeah you got that right, as long as you had a lock and were in range, nos worked. Not sure that the change was the right one to make, but we'll see how it goes. I've flown the Curse for a number of months now but I can see how overpowered it was compared to other recon ships. This change reverts it back into a support vessel, which was obviously how it was intended. I was thinking of trying out a HAC anyway, we'll just have to adapt and try new tactics folks I don't think so. Inty will be the new PWNMOBILE or "I win button" so I just train up inty skills...
galphi	Posted - 2007.08.24 07:55:00 - [1625] Well, we probably won't see dedicated nos ships anymore, but a battleship having 1 neutralizer on board is still an effective deterrent against smaller ships, so watch out
Malvahne Dark Knights of Deneb	Posted - 2007.08.24 10:23:00 - [1626] Persenoly I do not understand all the people who complain about the NOS nerf. Nos = defensive module Neut = offensive module If you use nos to save your cap it will still work and if you used nos to kill other peoples cap you got nerfed well cry me a river ladies becous neuts do that job way quicker and better. imo ofcours! I love the nos nerf and I love the khanid changes so yay for ccp.
Caterpillar AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:55:00 - [1627] So, what happened to the promised changes to the curse and pilgrim to stop them being totally screwed by this patch? Did CCP forget altogether or have they just lost interest in listening to what its paying customers think. Please refrain from starting dev blogs CCP, you dont pay any attention to what is said in them so all you do is waste your paying customers' time, leaving valid issues unanswered. Another victory for the whiners i think. :(
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.25 01:21:00 - [1628] Originally by: Caterpillar So, what happened to the promised changes to the curse and pilgrim to stop them being totally screwed by this patch? Did CCP forget altogether or have they just lost interest in listening to what its paying customers think. Please refrain from starting dev blogs CCP, you dont pay any attention to what is said in them so all you do is waste your paying customers' time, leaving valid issues unanswered. Another victory for the whiners i think. :( Only promised changes were to the pilgrim and the faction nos ships. If you're already upset by enough things dont go inventing more.
JaredC02 Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.25 05:42:00 - [1629] Congrats, you've just ****** up the Amarr race. Not only is the missile bonus completely pointless for the laser pilots everyone has trained up, but the Heretic is now by far the WORST interdictor in game. You force the Heretic to use rockets, and you give the flycatcher the ability to fit another light launcher... Extreme oversight, or purposely making Amarr pilots turn Caldari? --------------------
Caterpillar AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.08.25 07:40:00 - [1630] Originally by: CCP Fendahl As noted above, the ships still retain a significant advantage since they can neutralize cap more efficiently. Ships such as the curse can mitigate the Nosferatu equilibrium by spreading out the nosferatus and concentrate the neutralizers on a single target. If the fitting requirements on the neutralizers don't get adjusted in general, then we will most likely boost the fitting on these ships a bit since they have to be able to support neutralizers in order to function properly. From page 33 of the dev blog. It took me a fair amount of time to find, as i said, CCP certainly don't appear to have spent a lot of time reading the comments or addressing them. I guess i will park my amarr recons in my "museum to redundant ships" and wait for the next ship to get nerfed by an organisation that listens to whining noobs who want to blame the game mechanics when they lose a ship instead of the fact that they picked the wrong fight. Damn right I'm upset.

kill unsight	Posted - 2007.08.25 11:08:00 - [1631] The NOS change is wrong in my eyes, because nos is the only chance for a bs to get free on a frig attack. The Scrambler and Webber will go off only when theres no cap left. This means gankers+1:ganked-1 , thx again :( BTW: if you would make fleet fights FASTER (more fps) you will have the same result to the econemy, more ships get build, but fewer people get ****ed off. -- Add a nice sig here.
General Paul	Posted - 2007.08.25 13:49:00 - [1632] As a caldari pilot who was training for the khanid AF/CS.. Im a little peeved I now have to train armour tanking skills... Im slightly riled at being limited to HAM's (I have every other missile at specialisation 4) Im downright ****ed that the Khanid ships have 5% to all missile types and Caldari have 5% to kinetic only.. Someone earlier mentioned the roles and description of the Khanid.. they now have crap shilding.. rockets that surpass Caldaries Do the Caldari have a close range ship now? Or are they limited to fighting at upwards of 80KM > ? AS for nosses.. a stacking penalty would have sufficed..
Roninwolfie	Posted - 2007.08.25 16:22:00 - [1633] Is it just me or have some guys from SOE taken over ccp lol. im seeing Similarities between how much thay care for there "paying customers" an how much SOE regarded theres thay say there nerfing something hardcore an talk very little about it in the hopes it will just go away an when it doesn't they still ignore it an go ahead with the nerf like all is fine an well. for those that don't know star wars galaxies had like 350k people playing it , an with all the nerfs it got over 3 years an there was a hell of a lot of them an 3 major revamps it now has like 40-60k left in it lol. i know its not a fair comparison but its how the down fall of a game starts. i love eve an think its a great game. The nos nerf is a no brainer , get rid of whats on test center tell the guy that came up with it to brain storm some more before he comes up with ideas like that an put 1 of these three options on test for us to try out, #1 stacking penalty an tracking. #2 sig radius of 400% per nos after 2 are fitted an the third nos will give 800% 4th 1600% , so mission runners with 1 aren't affected an a someone in a nos domi will have a bigger sig then a titan. #3 make all ships have nos hard points, let amarr have 2 or more an the rest only one. now them ideas that guys from this thread suggested are 1000 times better. also are ccp going to nerf the bloodraiders an other rats that nos or is that coming l8ter , also has there been any testing to see how much extra lag this change is going to cause in major fleet battles an what not ? I'm sorry if that came across as a flame but its 2 am here just remember its never a bad thing to admit something isn't right an fix it before its too late , thats how you earn peoples trust an loyalty an they will always have faith you will do the right thing. something SOE never understood
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:59:00 - [1634] The problem Devs are like STUPID LITTLE KIDS. They think out something, asking what u thinking, and if u don agree, than they ignoring u because this, but they even dont think about they can be wrong. Pls devs try to be normal peoples and see if u make something wrong, or u r real so EXTREME STUPID?
Seymour Ancolater	Posted - 2007.08.26 02:16:00 - [1635] Hi, I also think that a command ship has nothing to do in the first line, this should be the place for the assault ships or the field command ships. I fly the damnation for about 1/2 a year and can tell you in advance that with its slow speed and the small range of the heavy assault missles I will certainly get outmaneuvered all the time !!! So I think that the missle setup is a bad idea !
Gist Illuminatii	Posted - 2007.08.26 03:12:00 - [1636] sigh An Amarr pilot who is training up to use the Damnation so he can use heavy assault missiles... Oh and bought the curse so he could kinda maybe level out his opponent's cap whilst zeroing his own.
SephiriotH REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.26 12:18:00 - [1637] Edited by: SephiriotH on 26/08/2007 12:19:30 what will we have : 1. khanids will tank better than caldari. (they always did, but not it's even better) 2. khanids will do more dmg than caldari. (yeah, we are not using ONLY kinetic in pvp you know) 3. khanids will have faster lock than caldari. (they always did, but now the gape is just huge. somebody , plz enlight me - why the race which supposed to have the best sensors in game (caldari) have the most awkwardish ones? yeah, you hear me right , locking speed in most cases is MUCH MORE important than sensor strength.) to summarise : Amarrs have a great boost for pvp again. When Amarr pilots will have some skills into missiles - they will be better with missiles than Caldari , what an irony. (who cares about ability of long range missile combat? It only affects Battleship blob battles.) Conclusion : I wish I knew better before klicking "Caldari" when I started eve... Remember : With a bad word and good torpedo you are always hurting more then with a bad word alone.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.26 13:48:00 - [1638] Originally by: SephiriotH Edited by: SephiriotH on 26/08/2007 12:19:30 what will we have : 1. khanids will tank better than caldari. (they always did, but not it's even better) 2. khanids will do more dmg than caldari. (yeah, we are not using ONLY kinetic in pvp you know) 3. khanids will have faster lock than caldari. (they always did, but now the gape is just huge. somebody , plz enlight me - why the race which supposed to have the best sensors in game (caldari) have the most awkwardish ones? yeah, you hear me right , locking speed in most cases is MUCH MORE important than sensor strength.) to summarise : Amarrs have a great boost for pvp again. When Amarr pilots will have some skills into missiles - they will be better with missiles than Caldari , what an irony. (who cares about ability of long range missile combat? It only affects Battleship blob battles.) Conclusion : I wish I knew better before klicking "Caldari" when I started eve... 100% agree
5hadow 1	Posted - 2007.08.26 17:24:00 - [1639] I think this is very stupid. Please correct me if I'm wrong but a Heavy Nos drains 150 from my cap but I only get 100 from the target ship. That gives me plus 50. A Heavy Neutralize drains 500 from my cap and his cap with no limit. But you can only drain a nos so the caps are equal. So why use a weapon that will only make you on even term with your target. The Nos didn't give you a big advantage but it still can drain a cap over time. So I guess everyone will be changing over to Neutralizer since CCP has chosen to Nerf another weapon due to newbee's and cry babies can't figure out the best way to brake a nos is ECM or dare I say TEAMWORK.
Tidas Andrommeda	Posted - 2007.08.26 17:52:00 - [1640] Originally by: 5hadow 1 I think this is very stupid. Please correct me if I'm wrong but a Heavy Nos drains 150 from my cap but I only get 100 from the target ship. That gives me plus 50. A Heavy Neutralize drains 500 from my cap and his cap with no limit. But you can only drain a nos so the caps are equal. So why use a weapon that will only make you on even term with your target. The Nos didn't give you a big advantage but it still can drain a cap over time. So I guess everyone will be changing over to Neutralizer since CCP has chosen to Nerf another weapon due to newbee's and cry babies can't figure out the best way to brake a nos is ECM or dare I say TEAMWORK. Nos does nothing to the users cap. Nos was never meant to be a Neut as well. This falls on deaf ears :(.

Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.26 18:11:00 - [1641] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/08/2007 18:11:08 Originally by: SephiriotH 1. khanids will tank better than caldari. (they always did, but not it's even better) 2. khanids will do more dmg than caldari. (yeah, we are not using ONLY kinetic in pvp you know) Yes, because you can fit a 5 slot tank AND 3 damagemods at the same time on the khanid ships. And khanid ships have instead a missile damage a missile type restriction. If you prefer instead to having only a kinetic dps bonus only a HAM dps bonus... Quote: 3. khanids will have faster lock than caldari. (they always did, but now the gape is just huge. somebody , plz enlight me - why the race which supposed to have the best sensors in game (caldari) have the most awkwardish ones? yeah, you hear me right , locking speed in most cases is MUCH MORE important than sensor strength.) Locking range and locking speed are mutually exclusive. You can have one high, not both. Khanid ships have a good sig resolution, but a bad locking range. The opposite is the case for caldari ships.
Graedlav	Posted - 2007.08.26 22:58:00 - [1642] Originally by: Johannes Alexodia uhm ive never used nos and never will. It hurts me please remove it so all us Panzies can be carebears and do water sports. In fact make PVP illegal it hurts me and ruins my fun. Freakin panzies Leave nos the way it is or Kill PVP all together In fact Shut eve down that will shut all the morons and idiots up. Make eve open only to those with Guts and a willingness to die. IN fact give the carebears there own little server with no weapons and they can mine without ever worrying about fighting. Dont Nerf nos. Nerf eve Eve is too fun to be left alone make is so dumb and boring it dies. PS: every one who ever complained about NOS. Go play something like Hello Kitty Island Adventure. It should be mundane enough and peaceful enough to keep you happy. -Signed Somone who has died by NOS, ECM, MISSILE FIRE, HYBRIDS, PROJECTILES, LASERS, RATS, OH Wait rats shoot back nerf them so they don't. And dont flame my spelling cause i cant be bothered to correct it. BTW i dont need to test the nos changes the whole explanation on it has ... N00BS cant take the heat. B Another thing. if they nerf anything else CCP should rename it Self Blizzard II. Its all the Nerfing that blizzard does that makes me hate them. Oh the Doomsday Weapon can One hit wonder my Frig can you do it so that its damage is ralative to the ship it hits so if it hits another titan it explodes but my Battleship comes out unscathed. Well if you dont like NOS the way it is QUIT!!! i...love this guy...i actually...love him...he is 100% right.. not just nos but the game is fine how it is...maybe a few tweaks here and there and new content..but dont change things weve all become accustomed to..just because some muppet, who owns a raven and a covetor doesnt want to get his ass handed to him by someone who finds it humerous to kill carebears...coz it is when they get nerd rage,has whined over 1000 times for you to nerf everything... u know what im gonna make a thread..whining that nos should be boosted...and see how u react to that....maybe CCP just likes to annoy us... maybe if u didnt practically laugh at people when they get killed unfairly due to a lag issue..and u say ur logs dont show it..of course they dont its lag.. i doubt ur logs even know how to show lag in a report... except "bandwidth usage exeeded 100%"...then u wonder why people whine...done whine ... people will just find another annoying way to make a mockery out of u on the battlefeild... and yes... paragraphs ftw
Bull Frog Amarr Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 03:28:00 - [1643] I am sorry if this has been asked before or brought up, but 58 pages is a hell of a lot of reading and I may have missed it in the skim. With the Khanid ships being altered and the Nos Nerfed, why is the curse being left "as is"? Shouldn't it get some love to counter-act the neutering it's receiving?
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.27 07:23:00 - [1644] Originally by: Graedlav Originally by: Johannes Alexodia uhm ive never used nos and never will. It hurts me please remove it so all us Panzies can be carebears and do water sports. In fact make PVP illegal it hurts me and ruins my fun. Freakin panzies Leave nos the way it is or Kill PVP all together In fact Shut eve down that will shut all the morons and idiots up. Make eve open only to those with Guts and a willingness to die. IN fact give the carebears there own little server with no weapons and they can mine without ever worrying about fighting. Dont Nerf nos. Nerf eve Eve is too fun to be left alone make is so dumb and boring it dies. PS: every one who ever complained about NOS. Go play something like Hello Kitty Island Adventure. It should be mundane enough and peaceful enough to keep you happy. -Signed Somone who has died by NOS, ECM, MISSILE FIRE, HYBRIDS, PROJECTILES, LASERS, RATS, OH Wait rats shoot back nerf them so they don't. And dont flame my spelling cause i cant be bothered to correct it. BTW i dont need to test the nos changes the whole explanation on it has ... N00BS cant take the heat. B Another thing. if they nerf anything else CCP should rename it Self Blizzard II. Its all the Nerfing that blizzard does that makes me hate them. Oh the Doomsday Weapon can One hit wonder my Frig can you do it so that its damage is ralative to the ship it hits so if it hits another titan it explodes but my Battleship comes out unscathed. Well if you dont like NOS the way it is QUIT!!! i...love this guy...i actually...love him...he is 100% right.. not just nos but the game is fine how it is...maybe a few tweaks here and there and new content..but dont change things weve all become accustomed to..just because some muppet, who owns a raven and a covetor doesnt want to get his ass handed to him by someone who finds it humerous to kill carebears...coz it is when they get nerd rage,has whined over 1000 times for you to nerf everything... u know what im gonna make a thread..whining that nos should be boosted...and see how u react to that....maybe CCP just likes to annoy us... maybe if u didnt practically laugh at people when they get killed unfairly due to a lag issue..and u say ur logs dont show it..of course they dont its lag.. i doubt ur logs even know how to show lag in a report... except "bandwidth usage exeeded 100%"...then u wonder why people whine...done whine ... people will just find another annoying way to make a mockery out of u on the battlefeild... and yes... paragraphs ftw Its actually the opposite... Nos is for panzies that that can't put together a good pvp setup so they pack on nos, suck thier target dry and BOOM they win. The best change in a very long time to be honest and all the people whining about how thier precious nos is going to be nerfed.. That just makes me smile what goes around comes around. Originally by: Karanth Wimps play empire. Real men play in 0.0. Hardcore masochists live out in drone space.
Caterpillar AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:05:00 - [1645] Edited by: Caterpillar on 27/08/2007 10:06:43 So, lets say you are a pilot who has trained for a very long time to get into a Curse/Pilgrim. The Curse and Pilgrim have bonuses for nosferatu. Are you suggesting that Curse/Pilgrim pilots ought to have fitted something else? CCP invented the ship for the purpose of cap warfare, why would any sane individual fit it any other way? Would you fit hybrids to it or maybe a mining laser? The whiners win again, with another two ships consigned to the scrap heap. It appears that you would prefer to have just the ships that you fly being left as they are so I'll look forward to seeing a future dev blog when you are whining about a ship that you fly being neutered and i will remind you of your parting words.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:21:00 - [1646] Originally by: Caterpillar Edited by: Caterpillar on 27/08/2007 10:40:27 Edited by: Caterpillar on 27/08/2007 10:06:43 So, lets say you are a pilot who has trained for a very long time to get into a Curse/Pilgrim. The Curse and Pilgrim have bonuses for nosferatu. Are you suggesting that Curse/Pilgrim pilots ought to have fitted something else? CCP invented the ship for the purpose of cap warfare, why would any sane individual fit it any other way? Would you fit hybrids to it or maybe a mining laser? The whiners win again, with another two ships consigned to the scrap heap. It appears that you would prefer to have just the ships that you fly being left as they are so I'll look forward to seeing a future dev blog when you are whining about a ship that you fly being neutered and i will remind you of your parting words. Oh and i guess your post had nothing to do with the fact that you lost a one-on-one with a Curse yesterday in your Sabre. You should never have won that fight anyway, unless of course the Sabre is overpowered. LOL! News spreads fast doesnt it Yes I remember that fight and I had a nice chat with the guy that I lost too (complimented him on his skill with his ship). And yes I didn't think/expect I would win that fight tbh. But you cant honestly argue that Nos is fine like it is now can u? It was exactly the same situation when Jamming modules were overpowered, I really liked the fact that I could fly an elcheapo caracal filled with jammers and sensor damps and that would render a BS useless. But It was overpowered same as nos is. PS: How did u find out about that kill? are you stalking me? Originally by: Karanth Wimps play empire. Real men play in 0.0. Hardcore masochists live out in drone space.
Caterpillar AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:43:00 - [1647] I agree that something needed to be done to reduce the power of nos, particularly when used by non-specialist ships like the Dominix. However, this nerf will not hurt Dominix pilots as their neutdomis will probably be just as powerful, with their ability to fit a cap booster and they have a cargobay big enough to fit the charges. Your analogy of the ECM nerf is interesting as the impact on the ecm specilist ships was reduced largely by CCP when they created those low-slot signal distortion modules to improve ecm strength. On top of the bonuses that the Rook/Falcon already got, albeit in exchange for damage mods in the lows, this allowed the ecm recons to largely retain their role. I see no such amendment made for the cap warfare recons and so you might be pleased to hear that my Curse and Pilgrim will be consigned to the hangar until CCP realise they've picked the wrong option. I can but hope. As far as the "stalking" goes, killboards are a wonderful source of information and I found your comments interesting also. Just one day to wait, then your Sabre will be able to kill a Curse, in all likelihood, as you will be able to keep your mwd running to outrun his drones. That's balance i guess. :(
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:05:00 - [1648] Originally by: Caterpillar As far as the "stalking" goes, killboards are a wonderful source of information and I found your comments interesting also. Just one day to wait, then your Sabre will be able to kill a Curse, in all likelihood, as you will be able to keep your mwd running to outrun his drones. That's balance i guess. :( No I will still be scared of a curse matey, he just needs to run 1 (2 at the very most) neut cycle(s) and I will have no cap left and be helpless once again. Originally by: Karanth Wimps play empire. Real men play in 0.0. Hardcore masochists live out in drone space.
Caterpillar AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:17:00 - [1649] Odds on a Neut nerf? ;p
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:29:00 - [1650] Originally by: Caterpillar Odds on a Neut nerf? ;p shhh U never know who is reading this Originally by: Karanth Wimps play empire. Real men play in 0.0. Hardcore masochists live out in drone space.

Mechakucha Kusari	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:27:00 - [1651] Originally by: Keira Black nos works better on ships bigger than its class. good on ships in its own class and worse on ships smaller than its class. meaning medium nos will work efficiently on a large ship ok on a medium sized ship and not so good on a frigate. this would work well not only for the amarr recons but for any ship using nos. a cruiser wont get uber sucked by a nos domi as bad as a raven would. Have to agree with the above idea of NOS-nerfing... If a small one works the same on all the ships, but shuttles, a medium on cruiser-sized ships on up, and larges on Battleships on up, then I'm hip. With some percentage taken off for trying to snag energy from smaller ships, it keeps them in the battle, and would hopefully nix the complaint. Such that: a E500 Prototype Energy Vampire, would normally drain 103.5 to 115 units of cap every 12 seconds on a Battleship or larger-sized opponent (including emplacements), 80.5 to 92 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Battlecruiser-sized opponent, 57.5 to 69 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Cruiser-sized opponent, 34.5 to 46 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Destroyer-sized opponent (including Industrials and ORE ships), 11.5 to 23 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Frigate-sized opponent, 2.875 to 8.625 units of cap every 12 seconds from a shuttle and drone-sized opponent. This would include adding a skill to the Engineering series, "Energy Collecting Consolidation" or other title, and to be fair, should be a rank (training time modifier) 5 to 7 skill. Each level in the skill gives back a 2% bonus to what the equipped Energy Vampire was capable of doing. The above math is fairly simple, too, relative to a Heavy: 90 to 100% for the Battleships, 70 to 80% for Battlecruisers, 50 to 60% for Cruisers, 30 to 40% for Destroyers, Industrials, and ORE ships, 10 to 20% for the Frigates and 2.5 to 7.5% for drones and shuttles... For a Medium Energy Vampire it would be: Cruiser to larger sized opponent 90 to 100%, Destroyer, Industrial, or ORE ship would be 70 to 80%, Frigate-sized would be at 50 to 60%, and Shuttle and drone-sized opponents would be 30 to 40% of the Energy Vampire's collecting ability per cycle. For a Small, just use the same formula: for frigates on up it would be 90 to 100% of the transfer amount, and for drones and shuttles, it would be 70 to 80%. Can't really say too much about the Khanid ships, as I honestly haven't worked with them, yet; though I do agree in not completely limiting a ship to a singuliar fitting/fighting style, which seems to have been done to the lot. Oh well, this is my kibitz on this one.
Mechakucha Kusari	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:34:00 - [1652] Originally by: Mechakucha Kusari Have to agree with the above idea of NOS-nerfing... If a small one works the same on all the ships, but shuttles, a medium on cruiser-sized ships on up, and larges on Battleships on up, then I'm hip. Whoops, should read, "... and heavies on Battleships, on up, ..." Hopefully, the current or proposed nerfing will apply to the mission rats, too.
Cassandra Beckinsale	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:59:00 - [1653] I begin to think that all eve features are simply temporarily. I fear that I'll end up playing Space-Tetris or something in future. I cannot ever build a combat strategy because CCP keeps changing everything in the game. I play EVE for a year and I don't know for how long NOS is there but, why now? I mean why only now? Why Nos suddenly became a threat? Or should I say since Amarr became a threat? I'm Amarrian, thus, cap thirsty, thus rightfully ****t off with this changes. My lasers require cap, Amarr tanking depends on Cap (no passive armor regen you know). How can now a BS deal with a small ships like interceptors? Amarr gets a boost then it immediately gets nerfed LOL!. NOS nerfing is lame from my point of view, everyone could use it, so what was the problem with it? Curse was too overpowered? At least was usefull, now its overuseless... This also greatly affects Battleships. Battleships already have difficulties to deal with smaller targets, and now they have no nos.. so a few interceptors /frigates can now destroy any BS with ease, this translates to: a few millions valued ships can bring down a 150mil ship... It's the same then having a few patrol boats sunking a Capital battleship. NOS is no longer a weapon or usefull. If you want to properly use it you need them to use more modules (neutralizers) to make it go. I mean what the...? It's better if you remove NOS from the game.
dpatyi	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:10:00 - [1654] About the Nos: How to protect a BS against interceptors? >>>> Warp Disruptor II range: 24.000 m Heavy Energy Neutralizer II range: 25.400 m ...... The ceptors "work" inside Neut. range, an their cap can be destroyed in an instant. Against small ships Neut. was always better than Nos. (It kills small ships' cap quicker i think?) Penalty: 2-3 ceptors can lure a neutralizer equiped BS destroying its own cap. If the BS is alone... History: In the ancient times, when we were living and fighting on a single planet, called Earth, the mighty Battleship was created, to rule the waters. But the admirals (FC's) feared that they are going to lose the expensive ships to small, fast and cheap vessels, the torpedoboats. So the designers created an escort ship. It's name was it's mission : Torpedoboat-destroyer. The name was streamlined, and to this day, they are called: DESTROYERS!
dpatyi	Posted - 2007.08.27 19:32:00 - [1655] Khanid ships (Damnation) My caracter is caldari and I have started to train amarr ships to one day fly the Damnation. But now it looks like Khanid ships will have half bonuses. I can't fly command ships yet, so pls correct me if I missed something. If we look at the Vulture for example (It is a long range railgun platform) , it's got: -5 turret slots -5 launcher slots -Hybrid range bonus (double) {Hybrid bonus = Railgun AND Blaster bonus! This is important!} -shield resist bonus So in my opinion the Damnation - as a close range missile boat - could have: -6 launcher slots -4 turret slots -Heavy- ANDHeavy Assault Missile damage bonus -Cap recharge bonus if it must. -Armour resist bonus. This would make it in line with other fleet command ships.
Dendron RebelsUnited	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:40:00 - [1656] Screw 58 pages of anti-nos-nerf voices and implement it anyways. yay for CCP! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:43:00 - [1657] So with these changes, who is going to be using nosferatu? I certainly can't think of ANY reason to give up a high-slot to mount it.
Irks	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:36:00 - [1658] Originally by: Mechakucha Kusari Have to agree with the above idea of NOS-nerfing... If a small one works the same on all the ships, but shuttles, a medium on cruiser-sized ships on up, and larges on Battleships on up, then I'm hip. With some percentage taken off for trying to snag energy from smaller ships, it keeps them in the battle, and would hopefully nix the complaint. Such that: a E500 Prototype Energy Vampire, would normally drain 103.5 to 115 units of cap every 12 seconds on a Battleship or larger-sized opponent (including emplacements), 80.5 to 92 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Battlecruiser-sized opponent, 57.5 to 69 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Cruiser-sized opponent, 34.5 to 46 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Destroyer-sized opponent (including Industrials and ORE ships), 11.5 to 23 units of cap every 12 seconds from a Frigate-sized opponent, 2.875 to 8.625 units of cap every 12 seconds from a shuttle and drone-sized opponent. This would include adding a skill to the Engineering series, "Energy Collecting Consolidation" or other title, and to be fair, should be a rank (training time modifier) 5 to 7 skill. Each level in the skill gives back a 2% bonus to what the equipped Energy Vampire was capable of doing. The above math is fairly simple, too, relative to a Heavy: 90 to 100% for the Battleships, 70 to 80% for Battlecruisers, 50 to 60% for Cruisers, 30 to 40% for Destroyers, Industrials, and ORE ships, 10 to 20% for the Frigates and 2.5 to 7.5% for drones and shuttles... For a Medium Energy Vampire it would be: Cruiser to larger sized opponent 90 to 100%, Destroyer, Industrial, or ORE ship would be 70 to 80%, Frigate-sized would be at 50 to 60%, and Shuttle and drone-sized opponents would be 30 to 40% of the Energy Vampire's collecting ability per cycle. For a Small, just use the same formula: for frigates on up it would be 90 to 100% of the transfer amount, and for drones and shuttles, it would be 70 to 80%. Great solution. MUCH better than destroying all nos based ships, as this patch has done. I feel very sorry for anyone who has trained up curse/pilgrim if these go live.
Nagrarok	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:11:00 - [1659] I have no problems with the sacrilege changing to a missile boat yes the range aint great but with a MWD u should b fine atm my sac kicks ass with hams all i need is a lil bit more missile skills n ill b set i dont get y some ppl r so ****ed off about it i love it ^_^
Mechakucha Kusari	Posted - 2007.08.28 18:42:00 - [1660] Originally by: dpatyi About the Nos: How to protect a BS against interceptors? >>>> Warp Disruptor II range: 24.000 m Heavy Energy Neutralizer II range: 25.400 m ...... The ceptors "work" inside Neut. range, an their cap can be destroyed in an instant. Against small ships Neut. was always better than Nos. (It kills small ships' cap quicker i think?) Penalty: 2-3 Interceptors can lure a neutralizer equipped BS destroying its own cap. If the BS is alone... History: In the ancient times, when we were living and fighting on a single planet, called Earth, the mighty Battleship was created, to rule the waters. But the admirals (FC's) feared that they are going to loose the expensive ships to small, fast and cheap vessels, the torpedoboats. So the designers created an escort ship. It's name was it's mission : Torpedoboat-destroyer. The name was streamlined, and to this day, they are called: DESTROYERS! NOS (Energy Vampire) is not only used in PvP, but also in PvE wherein it helps to maintain one's cap levels and hopefully hinder the enemy NPC units to some degree or another, hopefully by decreasing the tank of said units. Also, in the case of missioning, the switch over to Energy Neutralizers is just simply not an option, unless you've made some fairly drastic changes to your existing mission-ship fitting and have employed cap boosters of some form or another to compensate, very heavily for this current alteration to the way the Energy Vampire Weaponry works. Again, I completely agree with several posts out there concerning what has happened relative to the different Amarr and a few Gallente vessels whose setups include these devices or other denial tactics in order to bolster their own offensive capabilities; especially for missioning in my case. Can't really speak to much to the PvP end of things, but it seems to me that if you're going after a particuliar toon, and you know what ship he/she/they are flying and it happens to be a BS, then either bugging out, switching to a longer ranged ammo type/frequency crystal, while staying outside of 27KM should keep you safe from the majourity of Heavy NOS modules out there. Again, theory vs. fact. Hopefully, drones, NOS, and Amarr ships will get some much needed benefits/control interfaces in the future patches.

Masakari God	Posted - 2007.08.28 19:20:00 - [1661] To be honest I have been flying for over a year now and when I started I used a full blown Nos Domi for mission running and corp pvp. Back then it was nice to be able to be a fair newb show up to a fight and change the tables single handed, But that is my opinion on warfare. (All is fair in love AND WAR). I am not saying I agree with everything CCP does but honestly I think that in order for the longer warfare between single ships to happen changes need made. I personally do not agree with the extreme change that nos has undergone. If I where to make a change to the NOS I would have done something similar except I would have done it this way. Instead of making the nos stop pulling once the pull has equaled the cap % of the opposing ship, The nos should continue to pull all of the cap from the targeted ship but the aggressing ship should not receive any cap bonus or recharge rate bonus from the nos after said ship has dropped to 45%-60% total cap. The reason I say this, is my understanding that the nos was designed to be the succubus's of all succubus's. The nos was designed to remove all ability to regen cap fast enough to continue in long term fights or even 1 vs 1 short term fights. Where as newts simply remove the cap all together. this being said and the need for a little more balance to the effectiveness of nos VS other ship class's there should be a point where the nos still does the job but the pilot using does not benefit from it as much as it used to. which is why I have suggested the change that I did. Plz don't get me wrong I don't agree with the changes made but I do agree that there should be some sort of change that is not so extreme. My nos Domi has been moth balled sadly until this change that has been made in this patch is updated or will stay forever moth balled as the ship is no longer able to perform its duties as designed :( (In my opinion) Thanks for listening to my 2sence.
K'Vigor Amarr Trouble Every Day	Posted - 2007.08.29 04:13:00 - [1662] This is fantastic! I have been training to use a Curse for months and months, I had been looking forward to flying an Amarr ship that is solo pwnage with a portable barbeque attachment and a complementary mini bar. Then this crap happens, recon lvl 4 finishes a day after the nos nerf, thanks CCP your at the top of my Christmas list. I'm gonna stop whining and train for Command Ship before something bad happens to that aswell.
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.29 04:28:00 - [1663] You know, I would parody that post, but I'd end up typing the exact same thing. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.29 07:16:00 - [1664] I hope Devs would be nerfed soon :) But without joking, this nosnerf was needed but is really bad. U could make it much better if u would define as follows: U would nos your enemies cap to the same level as your ship have, and after this point u would still drain the cap of the enemy ship, just would not be added to your ship.
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:19:00 - [1665] Originally by: Damned Force U would nos your enemies cap to the same level as your ship have, and after this point u would still drain the cap of the enemy ship, just would not be added to your ship. Yeah because then your nosdomi/curse/nosmyrmi/nostyphoon/nosnaglfar would still be the overpowered ship it was yesterday! Woohoo! People don't seem to realize that the devs didn't want to just slightly nerf nos, they wanted to change its use entirely. Filling your highs with nos and then F1-F8 isn't going to work anymore. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
K'Vigor Amarr Trouble Every Day	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:32:00 - [1666] Yeah i understand that NOS was crazy and yes it did need to be delt with. Im just a little annoyed that it happened as soon as I could fly the Curse. But sh*t happens, I'll just have to stop whining about it and adapt to it.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:53:00 - [1667] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Originally by: Damned Force U would nos your enemies cap to the same level as your ship have, and after this point u would still drain the cap of the enemy ship, just would not be added to your ship. Yeah because then your nosdomi/curse/nosmyrmi/nostyphoon/nosnaglfar would still be the overpowered ship it was yesterday! Woohoo! People don't seem to realize that the devs didn't want to just slightly nerf nos, they wanted to change its use entirely. Filling your highs with nos and then F1-F8 isn't going to work anymore. No i dont fly a Domi or other nosship. And Nos should be effective, because is a weapon. Is just overpowered on drone ships, so not the nos need so big nerf, but the droneships
Born4Plunder	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:36:00 - [1668] HI, NOS ???? WTF is this change... don't think it was thought through... cause basically smaller ships will benefit best from NOS... I can see destroyers coming back in business as I write this... while bigger ship will benefit very little to none at all against any ship... I think it should be nerfed depending on the size of ship you try to NOS or nerf the amount you get from it to 1/3 or 1/4 but in no way how you guys did that... I can see why you did that, but hey... so what, a cruiser or bigger can drain the cap of a frigate sized ship in a matter of seconds... life sucks, but that's the way it is... and so should some stuff remain in games too.. Bye.
Moon Beans	Posted - 2007.08.31 15:53:00 - [1669] after playing with my curse for a couple days with the change, i have noticed now that nos is next to useless it seems to be causing another problem that is a double edged nerfbat for the poor old curse,, (i wont worry about mentioning the pilgrim cause its fkn useless + 100pg woo hoo that will keep em happy lol.) 3 ravens in a row that i cought in belts ratting have all had smartbombs fitted as there is no point fitting useless modules like nos this makes them impossible to kill.. i have most curse skill to level 5 including recon 5 and i must say i really cant see the point in using the ship anymore it really does suck and one has to feel a tad sorry for the poor old pilgrim pilots what a useless pile of that ship is now :S
Original Copy	Posted - 2007.09.01 13:09:00 - [1670] Actually I prefer my Curse/Pilgrim now that I have to rely more heavily on neuts than I do NOS. I flew them with all NOS primarily before, loved 'em. They were not instant 'I Win' boats either, they were just good. I could *****frigs, destroyers, T1 cruisers in a cycle. BCs and HACs in a few as long as I could outrun or out-tank their damage output. Now I can rip a BC and HAC dry in a cycle, at most two, and only loose less than 100 cap... and I can do this at range, even with a pilgrim. That farming raven in 0.0 using smarties? Pick targets adequite to your ship... and obviously those are not it unless you've got allies nearby.

LvxOccvlta	Posted - 2007.09.01 22:46:00 - [1671] Originally by: Original Copy Actually I prefer my Curse/Pilgrim now that I have to rely more heavily on neuts than I do NOS. I flew them with all NOS primarily before, loved 'em. They were not instant 'I Win' boats either, they were just good. I could *****frigs, destroyers, T1 cruisers in a cycle. BCs and HACs in a few as long as I could outrun or out-tank their damage output. Now I can rip a BC and HAC dry in a cycle, at most two, and only loose less than 100 cap... and I can do this at range, even with a pilgrim. That farming raven in 0.0 using smarties? Pick targets adequite to your ship... and obviously those are not it unless you've got allies nearby. ...all of which had been possible even before the nos nerf. But now you can't run all your modules can you.
Vandagar	Posted - 2007.09.02 09:14:00 - [1672] NOS is useless now, ship that depended on NOS to keep their cap running are now down. A mission fitted raven can now bust me down and hand me my a** on a silver plate... Going to cancel my account now. Bye folks...
Hastur DragonTooth Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.02 16:24:00 - [1673] Originally by: Vandagar As always, the above changes are not final and subject to change if they turn out to be overpowered or under-performing. Of course we would like to hear your feedback on the Nosferatu and Khanid changes (from Caldari pilots too). More balancing changes for Revelations 2.2 to follow. Here's some feedback. The nos changes blow chunks. Not only does it make the curse worthless but it is also a nurf to Amar in general, as a number of their ships tend to rely on a nos to keep their modules running and their weapons firing on their cap hungry vessels, instead of eating cap charges like candy in their mids. Like most MMO's Eve will eventually be ruined not by devs, but by development managers. They have a budget and in order to sustain it they convince their superiors that "more changes are needed, really they are!" when in reality Eve should be put in maintenance mode and a small dev staff simply work to fix bugs. They will claim their changes are needed to fix gameplay balance. Problem is, they tend to balance things like they did here. By dropping a damn BOWLING BALL on one side of the see-saw. A couple years down the road and your race will be nurfed next. All your *****ing will be to no avail. Eve will look nothing like the game you remember. All in the name of keeping some dolt's budget inflated. Want to fix Eve? Fire all the devs before it's too late.
Ozric Tentacle	Posted - 2007.09.03 09:44:00 - [1674] so I spend about 3 months training up for the Curse. What a complete waste of time. Another kick in the teeth for Amarr by the dev numpties. Seriously considering cancelling the account now.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.03 15:22:00 - [1675] Originally by: Vandagar NOS is useless now, ship that depended on NOS to keep their cap running are now down. A mission fitted raven can now bust me down and hand me my a** on a silver plate... Going to cancel my account now. Bye folks... Actually, if you rely on nos to keep your cap running you will notice very little difference. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:58:00 - [1676] Edited by: Sylthi on 06/09/2007 13:00:21 Has anyone in this thread mentioned that ALL of the Blood faction ships have had their nutz seriously cut off by this ONE change yet? Just checking. If no one has, I have now. I mean COME ON DEVS!! Do you guys even THINK about these changes before you throw them out for people to sink or swim with? Been flying Blood ships and LOVING them for over three years. Thank you devs for blowing that fun out of the water for me for no good reason. I.E. No reason that people have been able to back up with MATH. After all, Nos have worked the way they did for OVER FOUR YEARS. Why NOW, all of a SUDDEN, are they such a huge problem for people to deal with?? Ridiculous. * *
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.07 11:23:00 - [1677] To be honest I only see a big problem with the Khanid changes of weapon type. Now most of those pilots have to start training missile skills. The NOS change sounds nice. A BS will still be able to kill the cap of a frig easy, it will only cost them some cap this time. At least NEUTs will now be used for what they are indented, instead of the NOS.
Tekumze Wolf Minmatar Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:36:00 - [1678] Edited by: Tekumze Wolf on 20/09/2007 10:38:26 Originally by: Vandagar NOS is useless now, ship that depended on NOS to keep their cap running are now down. A mission fitted raven can now bust me down and hand me my a on a silver plate... Going to cancel my account now. Bye folks... You're talking about two different things at the same time. Not sure if you noticed but your cap was fine when your a was handed to you. The problem you had was that the Ravens cap was also fine and that's what you're complaining about. If you haven't canceled already can I have your stuff? As for the last post. Yes Khanid changes require some extra training to use the ships to their potential. That takes like 2 weeks maybe after you decide to go for a certain weapon. Not that big of a deal.


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