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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
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CCP Paradox
797
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
I thought I would give a short forum post on Team Super Friends features in their current state on the Singularity test server. We have some dev blogs scheduled to be out shortly, so I will be brief. This is so that you can report issues and give feedback to the team in this thread. As we will be watching just this one only for the time being. There are more features to come, and changes to be made to the features we have already implemented, but please don't let that stop you from discussing what is on Singularity.
Known issues: Please read this first, before you try out the features. I will update every server update. You cannot resize a probe individually. This will be fixed shortly. Probe Scan Range does not update in the Probe list UI. Scan results in the Scanner window are not currently showing a distance, but will shortly. New scanning modules & Capital Rigs need to be seeded on Singularity On to the available features:
Seven probes launched at once Probe launchers can now only launch a maximum of seven probes. These probes are now launched all together. One click, launches all.
Scan Probe Formations
There are two buttons for the formations in the Scanner window, clicking them will launch probes if they are not already launched, and move them into formation.
Probes are launched in the default "Spread Formation" This formation is designed to sweep the system for signatures quickly.
There are two formations you can select, as well as making your own formations. Spread formation Looks like a flower and is position flat, from the center of the solar system.
Pinpoint formation Looks like the diamond formation many of you are already familiar with.
Probes by default now move as a formation. To make individual changes to probes, hold shift down. Holding shift will show the positioning arrows for all probes, instead of the one positioning arrow for the formation.
Resizing Probes will resize together when in formation, or independently (when holding shift). The resizing of probes will keep itself centered. This means resizing all probes will not shift their location.
Celestial brackets will also no longer get in the way of trying to use the positioning arrows or the probe spheres.
Probe Scanner window
Probe list: The probes listed in the window now have the relevant charge icon for the probe launched. Active, recall and destroy buttons are now placed within one util menu. Right clicking also works for all probes. Double clicking a probe in the list will center the camera over the probe.
Scan Result list The scan results are now displayed through a progress bar, instead of a table. The group / type / name is revealed once you hit the required signal strength. The progress bar is colored Red to Orange to Green depending on the signal strength. There is now scan history, which will show the change in acquired signal strength from your last scan. Once you get a 100% signal strength, a warpable button will appear next to the result.
Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Survey Probes in their own group & have their own launcher
Salvaging mini profession sites have all been removed. Hacking and Archaeology sites presence have been increased to compensate the loss. Archaeology sites have adopted salvage materials, and you can still receive the same amount of salvage from them as you could with the salvaging sites.
Skill Changes Astrometrics: This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1 Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes. Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level Also: Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half. New exploration modules There are Tech I and Tech II variants. Scan Acquisition Array Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII Scan Rangefinding Array Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII Scan Pinpointing Array Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II
Additionally Coderbreakers and Analyzers are now called "Data Analyzers" and "Relic Analyzers" respectively.
Exploration site signature changes Unknown sites now display whether it is a Wormwhole or Combat site when you discover the group. Signature Types have been changed to: Combat Sites (from Unknown) Wormhole (from Unknown) Data Sites (from Radar) Relic Sites (from Magnometric) Gas Sites (from Ladar) Ore Sites (from Gravimetric)
NPC spawns are removed from mini profession sites They don't spawn initially, but a trigger can still spawn them...
New Decryptors in hacking sites These new decryptors have many different modifications.
Cryptic Attainment Cryptic Augmentation Cryptic Parity Cryptic Process Cryptic Symmetry Esoteric Accelerant Esoteric Attainment Esoteric Augmentation Esoteric Parity Esoteric Process Esoteric Symmetry Incognito Accelerant Incognito Attainment Incognito Augmentation Incognito Parity Incognito Process Incognito Symmetry Occult Accelerant Occult Attainment Occult Augmentation Occult Parity Occult Process Occult Symmetry Optimized Cryptic Attainment Optimized Cryptic Augmentation Optimized Esoteric Attainment Optimized Esoteric Augmentation Optimized Incognito Attainment Optimized Incognito Augmentation Optimized Occult Attainment Optimized Occult Augmentation
New Capital Rigs Capital Drone Control Range Augmentor I Capital Drone Control Range Augmentor II Capital Drone Durability Enhancer I Capital Drone Durability Enhancer II Capital Drone Mining Augmentor I Capital Drone Mining Augmentor II Capital Drone Repair Augmentor I Capital Drone Repair Augmentor II Capital Drone Scope Chip I Capital... CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Bagehi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
160
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
"short forum post" TM |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Couple questions for you Do relic sites still requite a salvager for some, or is it all analyzer? And Is there a possibility to design a scripted version of the scanning modules. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Xer Jin
DIVERGENT PROXY
41
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
plz turn sisi on :\ so we can test this stuff |
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CCP Paradox
799
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Relic sites will require the Relic Analyzer, so no Salvager. Scripted versions are interesting, we will talk about it. But I think we might need to see how popular the modules become. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Relic sites will require the Relic Analyzer, so no Salvager. Scripted versions are interesting, we will talk about it. But I think we might need to see how popular the modules become. Personally I feel that a scripted version would be more popular than 3 separate modules. Thank you so much for removing the need to slap a salvager on a exploration ship, salvage drones all the way! \o/ Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1089
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 17:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:New Decryptors in hacking sites These new decryptors have many different modifications.
Cryptic Attainment Cryptic Augmentation Cryptic Parity Cryptic Process Cryptic Symmetry Esoteric Accelerant Esoteric Attainment Esoteric Augmentation Esoteric Parity Esoteric Process Esoteric Symmetry Incognito Accelerant Incognito Attainment Incognito Augmentation Incognito Parity Incognito Process Incognito Symmetry Occult Accelerant Occult Attainment Occult Augmentation Occult Parity Occult Process Occult Symmetry Optimized Cryptic Attainment Optimized Cryptic Augmentation Optimized Esoteric Attainment Optimized Esoteric Augmentation Optimized Incognito Attainment Optimized Incognito Augmentation Optimized Occult Attainment Optimized Occult Augmentation Can you please clarify whether these are all brand new, or whether they are a mix of totally brand new, and existing ones with a new name? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 17:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
Katie Corb
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Do the Relic/Data site NPC changes affect wormholes? Like, will sleepers no longer spawn in wormhole Data sites, or at least not until you activate a "trigger" you're hinting about? :darkelf: |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Can you confirm this is a planned changed for odyssey expansion not just some test server limitation? |
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
blink alt wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Can you confirm this is a planned changed for odyssey expansion not just some test server limitation?
Planned changed, they will be removed with Odyssey. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched?
You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
290
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why not 8 probes?
Also, RIP Deep Space Probes. We had a good run. |
Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
230
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish.
People want to launch fewer probes for things. What is the point of not allowing them to launch fewer if they wish to launch fewer? It seems that they should be able to launch 4 and save that formation for later use. Its a common thing for combat probing currently so I'm puzzled on why they now have to launch and use 7 probes.
And combat ladar sites... as a booster manufacturer its a big thing for me. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
LtauSTinpoWErs
Mafia Redux Phobia.
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back?
And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left). |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Why not 8 probes?
Also, RIP Deep Space Probes. We had a good run. There is no real need to 8 probes with the removal of DSP. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1404
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Will bonused scanning ships receive more mids (haven't checked, assume the new arrays are midslots)? Will the astrometric skills be changed to a shorter training time since they're only half as good?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:New Decryptors in hacking sites These new decryptors have many different modifications.
Cryptic Attainment Cryptic Augmentation Cryptic Parity Cryptic Process Cryptic Symmetry Esoteric Accelerant Esoteric Attainment Esoteric Augmentation Esoteric Parity Esoteric Process Esoteric Symmetry Incognito Accelerant Incognito Attainment Incognito Augmentation Incognito Parity Incognito Process Incognito Symmetry Occult Accelerant Occult Attainment Occult Augmentation Occult Parity Occult Process Occult Symmetry Optimized Cryptic Attainment Optimized Cryptic Augmentation Optimized Esoteric Attainment Optimized Esoteric Augmentation Optimized Incognito Attainment Optimized Incognito Augmentation Optimized Occult Attainment Optimized Occult Augmentation Can you please clarify whether these are all brand new, or whether they are a mix of totally brand new, and existing ones with a new name?
I have added a NEW tag to the brand new decryptors that are added in this release.
CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. It just doesn't make sense to me. (yes i know deep space probes have been removed.)
Is it going to be possible to change the amount of probes launched or can i set my own quick formations? I normally only use 4 combat probes as it is what I'm used to and it minimizes the effect probes have on dscan. Based on this I would also love to keep the ability to have at least 8 probes inside the launcher for the ability to launch multiple sets without having to spend so much time reloading. |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
290
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Why not 8 probes?
Also, RIP Deep Space Probes. We had a good run. There is no real need to 8 probes with the removal of DSP.
What does that have to do with DSP?
I'm referring to the ability to have probes scanning 2 targets at once. |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3710
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Why is there a limit of 7 probes? Several people currently probe with 8, including some of the best probers I know. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Why not 8 probes?
Also, RIP Deep Space Probes. We had a good run. There is no real need to 8 probes with the removal of DSP. What does that have to do with DSP? I'm referring to the ability to have probes scanning 2 targets at once. Deep Space Probe at the sun with the full system in its range, then 7 probes on the site or target. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Katie Corb
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems.
If I understand correctly, the new system scanner should display all signatures, to let you know if there are sites worth probing down. :darkelf: |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
290
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Deep Space Probe at the sun with the full system in its range, then 7 probes on the site or target.
Lol. You've been doing it wrong buddy. You don't need to move a DSP and you certainly don't need 7 probes to scan a single site.
Back to my original question, why the limit to 7 probes CCP? |
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back? And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left).
There will be no compensation for those skill changes. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish.
Why are you taking all the finesse out of probing? Are you telling me that you don't see what this does to combat probing ships that many times require different probing tactics based on target? It's really really annoying thing.
single probe launch can be used to check ships/signature from whole systems without having to bloat dscan because of it and you save a lot of time not reloading after every time you want to check for something. |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
290
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly.
I don't need to test it out. I can tell you right now that the removal of the 8th probe is stupid and screws over skilled combat probers. |
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish. Why are you taking all the finesse out of probing? Are you telling me that you don't see what this does to combat probing ships that many times require different probing tactics based on target? It's really really annoying thing. single probe launch can be used to check ships/signature from whole systems without having to bloat dscan because of it and you save a lot of time not reloading after every time you want to check for something.
This is why we're getting feedback, we want to hear what you have to say! (And also try it out) CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
Katie Corb wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. If I understand correctly, the new system scanner should display all signatures, to let you know if there are sites worth probing down.
I'm not sure about this but i thought new system scanner works just like before displaying all the anomalies with some eye candy.
Anyway as far as i know it does not show ships which you still need to check with probes. |
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blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote: Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock
I overlooked this the first time I read the post, thank you so much! NO PROBE LEFT BEHIND! |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
29
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Will combat probes have their max scan range increased from 64 AU to 254 AU? We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1224
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
I have been freed! \Gÿ+/ |
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:Katie Corb wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. If I understand correctly, the new system scanner should display all signatures, to let you know if there are sites worth probing down. I'm not sure about this but i thought new system scanner works just like before displaying all the anomalies with some eye candy. Anyway as far as i know it does not show ships which you still need to check with probes.
The new system overlay scanner will also show signatures. Their feedback thread is over on https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=233610&find=unread CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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iskflakes
431
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
A few questions:
1) Why are deep space probes being removed? 2) Why are we being limited to exactly 7 probes? 3) In wormholes will we see NPCs in Radar/Mag sites, or have they been removed? This isn't 100% clear from your post 4) With the new scan deviation modules, is it possible to reduce scan deviation to 0?
Have you considered that the removal of deep space probes will make 256AU safe spots nearly impossible to find? - |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish. Why are you taking all the finesse out of probing? Are you telling me that you don't see what this does to combat probing ships that many times require different probing tactics based on target? It's really really annoying thing. single probe launch can be used to check ships/signature from whole systems without having to bloat dscan because of it and you save a lot of time not reloading after every time you want to check for something. This is why we're getting feedback, we want to hear what you have to say! (And also try it out)
I'm giving that feedback based on what i gather from the details you are providing us and based on the skills i use daily. I'm all thumbs up for probing UI improvements but i just don't want it to take away all the different tactics by making them painfully hard to do.
Give players chance to save their own probe formations and launch the amount of probes based on that formation instantly. Keep the ability to manually launch probes one at a time if one so wishes. You don't have to explain to masses why anyone would want to do it. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3710
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Any chance you guys made it so that probe results can still be copied and pasted? A lot of wormhole 3rd party applications took advantage of that to quickly enter all the signatures in a system. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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CCP Paradox
800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish. Why are you taking all the finesse out of probing? Are you telling me that you don't see what this does to combat probing ships that many times require different probing tactics based on target? It's really really annoying thing. single probe launch can be used to check ships/signature from whole systems without having to bloat dscan because of it and you save a lot of time not reloading after every time you want to check for something. This is why we're getting feedback, we want to hear what you have to say! (And also try it out) I'm giving that feedback based on what i gather from the details you are providing us and based on the skills i use daily. I'm all thumbs up for probing UI improvements but i just don't want it to take away all the different tactics by making them painfully hard to do. Give players chance to save their own probe formations and launch the amount of probes based on that formation instantly. Keep the ability to manually launch probes one at a time if one so wishes. You don't have to explain to masses why anyone would want to do it.
Saving formations is tricky, but we do really want to at least save the last formation you assembled the probes into. I cannot promise that for Odyssey at this stage, but we're working on it.
CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Enemyminds
Enemy Minds
11
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Two step wrote:Any chance you guys made it so that probe result can still be copied and pasted? A lot of wormhole 3rd party applications took advantage of that to quickly enter all the signatures in a system.
This this this.
very small change that will mean a lot to a ton of people. |
Nox Arnoux
Aperture Harmonics K162
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly.
We don't need to test the feature to let you know that removing the 8th probe will **** off a lot of people, given that it completely dismantles their efficiently made probing setups. |
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Klingon Admiral
Black Hole Cluster
19
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Is CCP aware of the fact that the changes to the scanning skills will yield slightly improved results as skills are applied vie multiplication?
1.25-¦ = 1.5625 > 1.5
Scanning will without doubt get a lot easier after Odyssey. |
Elendar
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
8
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly.
Why 7 indeed?
When FCing i very often have two different sets of 4 out so i can be probing two areas at once (say the current objective/fight and a gate/additional objective i'm expecting a chance of combat on).
Is this a planned nerf to being able to setup for two locations in combat? |
Huiron
Aperture Harmonics K162
5
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
Two step wrote:Any chance you guys made it so that probe results can still be copied and pasted? A lot of wormhole 3rd party applications took advantage of that to quickly enter all the signatures in a system.
+1 on this. And clearly you have the numbers behind the scene, so I guess it won't be too hard to allow them to show on ctrl-c. |
iskflakes
431
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
A lot of people already seem to be annoyed about the probe limitation. Perhaps you could add a slider in the probing interface: "Number of probes to launch" and default it to 7? That way everybody is happy. - |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
268
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Posted - 2013.05.08 18:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote: Saving formations is tricky, but we do really want to at least save the last formation you assembled the probes into. I cannot promise that for Odyssey at this stage, but we're working on it.
wasn't there an (illegal) hack that did this?
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Alain Colcer
Agiolet Security and Logistics
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
To those who are asking, why this or that .....i strongly suggest you re-read CCP Paradox comment on a upcoming devblog.
Most explanations will be there for you to read. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
991
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
*insert comment concerning theme parks and boiling frogs*
no seriously, in my opinion probing was in a good state before; it left enough freedom for creative uses such as DSP and was deep enough so that there was room to improve and become a 'good' prober.
the old probing mechanics may or may not have been a little too tedious and the UI was a challenge, but the current solution is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. it's only one iteration away from 'press button X to scan the entire system'. in fact, a dedicated alt may be able to do just that: press one button to release all probes. press another button for the right formation, wait for scan results, see exactly the information you need.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly.
Not having the new modules seeded is going to effect the first round of feedback quite a bit as well yes? I for one will not be able to give a good porition of feedback in good faith knowing there will be significant changes to my scan results with those modules that can not be used on the very first odyssey build on sisi. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote: Saving formations is tricky, but we do really want to at least save the last formation you assembled the probes into. I cannot promise that for Odyssey at this stage, but we're working on it.
I can understand the problems with saving own presets but I can't understand why new system has to remove the ability to use previously acquired formations/tactics. Sounds like the whole system has really been rushed..
Can't you at least tie the "launch all the probes of all the worlds" to the formation button? People can still just ignore them and do stuff manually if they like. |
Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Exploration site signature changes[/b] Unknown sites now display whether it is a Wormwhole or Combat site when you discover the group. Signature Types have been changed to: Combat Sites (from Unknown) Wormhole (from Unknown) Data Sites (from Radar) Relic Sites (from Magnometric) Gas Sites (from Ladar) Ore Sites (from Gravimetric)
The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it.
Because of this; http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/ and for the TLDR people; By doing a single probe scan, with a deep space probe, you can to _some_ extent identify the signatures worth scanning down.
Granted i haven't tried the new system yet, but if this little feature get removed, and there is no substitute, then the quote;"We dont want people to use more time on single player stuff" ... Makes no sense whatsoever, because this just means you will have to use much more time on a _very_ boring task; probing, because you can't identify what sigs are worth probing down.
There is nothing more annoying than scanning down a sig, only to find it's a crappy WH or mag site, which you have no interest in whatsoever....
Also fix respawning of plexes.. please :)
|
|
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Fonac wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Exploration site signature changes[/b] Unknown sites now display whether it is a Wormwhole or Combat site when you discover the group. Signature Types have been changed to: Combat Sites (from Unknown) Wormhole (from Unknown) Data Sites (from Radar) Relic Sites (from Magnometric) Gas Sites (from Ladar) Ore Sites (from Gravimetric)
The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it. Because of this; http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/and for the TLDR people; By doing a single probe scan, with a deep space probe, you can to _some_ extent identify the signatures worth scanning down. Granted i haven't tried the new system yet, but if this little feature get removed, and there is no substitute, then the quote;"We dont want people to use more time on single player stuff" ... Makes no sense whatsoever, because this just means you will have to use much more time on a _very_ boring task; probing, because you can't identify what sigs are worth probing down. There is nothing more annoying than scanning down a sig, only to find it's a crappy WH or mag site, which you have no interest in whatsoever.... Also fix respawning of plexes.. please :)
It works the almost the same way with combat probes. You are just slightly limited with system size. I've been doing this with combats for years. |
Elinea Ausene
NorthWest Russian Corp Proxima Centauri Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
plz don't remove deep core probes. it is not the most broken thing in the game. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly. Where is the fun of ACTUALLY testing something speculation is so much fun. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
Another thing that comes into my mind is that CCP could do bunch of probe presets from which you could choose. If technical issues are hard to work out. |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:
- This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
- Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes.
- Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
]
so combat scanning is going to be even faster now? Please tell me something was done to stop on grid probing atleast? |
Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:Fonac wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Exploration site signature changes[/b] Unknown sites now display whether it is a Wormwhole or Combat site when you discover the group. Signature Types have been changed to: Combat Sites (from Unknown) Wormhole (from Unknown) Data Sites (from Radar) Relic Sites (from Magnometric) Gas Sites (from Ladar) Ore Sites (from Gravimetric)
The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it. Because of this; http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/and for the TLDR people; By doing a single probe scan, with a deep space probe, you can to _some_ extent identify the signatures worth scanning down. Granted i haven't tried the new system yet, but if this little feature get removed, and there is no substitute, then the quote;"We dont want people to use more time on single player stuff" ... Makes no sense whatsoever, because this just means you will have to use much more time on a _very_ boring task; probing, because you can't identify what sigs are worth probing down. There is nothing more annoying than scanning down a sig, only to find it's a crappy WH or mag site, which you have no interest in whatsoever.... Also fix respawning of plexes.. please :) It works the almost the same way with combat probes. You are just slightly limited with system size. I've been doing this with combats for years.
I'm glad to hear that! |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
- Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes.
- Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
] so combat scanning is going to be even faster now? Please tell me something was done to stop on grid probing atleast? Don't forget that the scanning support skill strength are being cut in half. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
291
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
Fonac wrote: The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it.
Its not destruction of exploration at all you cry baby. You will just have to go back to probing like we did before everyone and their mother had deep space probes. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:41:00 -
[59] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
- Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes.
- Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
] so combat scanning is going to be even faster now? Please tell me something was done to stop on grid probing atleast?
They nerfed probing supports from 10% per level to 5% and moved those 5% under astrometrics skill. |
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada Apocalypse Now.
183
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
blink alt wrote:CCP Paradox wrote: Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock
I overlooked this the first time I read the post, thank you so much! NO PROBE LEFT BEHIND!
Will there be option to disable this, its nice to set up probes, jump out, jump back and reconnect and pin someone down quickly
|
|
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ok so new system scanner DOES NOT show ship signatures. To quickly scan amount of ships in system you would still want the ability to launch one probe. You don't always want to go for 100%, you just want the intel. |
Elendar
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:45:00 -
[62] - Quote
MainDrain wrote:blink alt wrote:CCP Paradox wrote: Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock
I overlooked this the first time I read the post, thank you so much! NO PROBE LEFT BEHIND! Will there be option to disable this, its nice to set up probes, jump out, jump back and reconnect and pin someone down quickly
A good point this too |
Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
Combat Ladar sites :D ??
They scan down as Ladar sites but are a lot harder to pin down without higher end skills. My booster manufacturing needs makes me keep asking. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
291
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
So how bout that 8th probe? |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:monkfish2345 wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
- Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes.
- Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
] so combat scanning is going to be even faster now? Please tell me something was done to stop on grid probing atleast? They nerfed probing supports from 10% per level to 5% and moved those 5% under astrometrics skill.
ahh quite true, i was forgetting skill bonus's are added before they are applied. the 0.5 second rather than 5% scared me :) |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
968
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:Ok so new system scanner DOES NOT show ship signatures. To quickly scan amount of ships in system you would still want the ability to launch one probe. You don't always want to go for 100%, you just want the intel. I believe clicking the probe launcher, like currently, will launch a single probe. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:49:00 -
[67] - Quote
Elendar wrote:MainDrain wrote:blink alt wrote:CCP Paradox wrote: Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock
I overlooked this the first time I read the post, thank you so much! NO PROBE LEFT BEHIND! Will there be option to disable this, its nice to set up probes, jump out, jump back and reconnect and pin someone down quickly A good point this too
Indeed. Just another example of all the dirty tactics that people sometimes use :) |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
The way I understand it, Virtue implants have just been made obsolete by those new ship modules. Oh well, at least I got them when they were under 2 bil for full set |
Amy Garzan
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:55:00 -
[69] - Quote
Do not like that we are not reimbursed for multiplier change.
Do not like that you have to launch 7 probes
Do not like that you effectively have to use addon mods to get the same results that used to get with pure skills. |
iskflakes
431
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:55:00 -
[70] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:The way I understand it, Virtue implants have just been made obsolete by those new ship modules. Oh well, at least I got them when they were under 2 bil for full set
I'm annoyed about this as well. I also fully expect CCP to introduce high grade virtues, making low-grades worthless. - |
|
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:55:00 -
[71] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:Ok so new system scanner DOES NOT show ship signatures. To quickly scan amount of ships in system you would still want the ability to launch one probe. You don't always want to go for 100%, you just want the intel. I believe clicking the probe launcher, like currently, will launch a single probe.
That's a relief :)
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:The way I understand it, Virtue implants have just been made obsolete by those new ship modules. Oh well, at least I got them when they were under 2 bil for full set
Virtue implants might be even more valuable now. You can probably probe from ******** ranges by adding those new modules. |
Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:55:00 -
[72] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Fonac wrote: The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it.
Its not destruction of exploration at all you cry baby. You will just have to go back to probing like we did before everyone and their mother had deep space probes.
Thank you for missing the point.(I just knew some cheesy guy and their "back in the days .. bla bla" Would come up)
But that's ok, some people like to hit themself with a bat, others like me, do not.
|
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote: Virtue implants might be even more valuable now. You can probably probe from ******** ranges by adding those new modules.
Oops, you are completely right.
So, could we know where the new module bpo's will be seeded? SOE? |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
291
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:01:00 -
[74] - Quote
Fonac wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Fonac wrote: The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it.
Its not destruction of exploration at all you cry baby. You will just have to go back to probing like we did before everyone and their mother had deep space probes. Thank you for missing the point.(I just knew some cheesy guy and their "back in the days .. bla bla" Would come up) But that's ok, some people like to hit themself with a bat, others like me, do not.
Are you autistic or something? Removal of deep space probes changes things, but it is hardly THE TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF EXPLORATION. |
Archare
Posthuman Society 10110001100111101000
91
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
Will you be able to use the new mid slot scanning mods while cloaked? |
Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:42:00 -
[76] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Fonac wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Fonac wrote: The removal of deep space probe make me extremely nervous this is in many ways a total destruction of exploration as we know it.
Its not destruction of exploration at all you cry baby. You will just have to go back to probing like we did before everyone and their mother had deep space probes. Thank you for missing the point.(I just knew some cheesy guy and their "back in the days .. bla bla" Would come up) But that's ok, some people like to hit themself with a bat, others like me, do not. Are you autistic or something? Removal of deep space probes changes things, but it is hardly THE TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF EXPLORATION.
Without going into a total troll mode..
The old "bla bla how we did things bla bla back then" ... Is just getting old. This is a game moving forward. Do CCP want to have people abandon exploration? - I dont think so. Does this change make exploration/ probing more of a hurdle, and act as a "bigger" filter than now? - Yes.
So how does the translate into the "fun factor" ? - It become less fun. Is this a good thing? - No.
The total destruction comment, might be overexaggerated, however iam sure many feel that probing is a necessary evil, in order to do what's actually fun, remove that one "loophole", that actually reduce your time looking at probes scanning is simply a bad idea.
and no iam not autistic, thank you again for the personal assault.
|
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:53:00 -
[77] - Quote
Jesus.
No one is going to abandon probing because the precious DSP are gone. And we're not fully going back to "boring" probing, as these new formations will speed things up immensely.
You'll have to probe just a little bit more, but its going to be easier than ever, given new modules, skill shifts and the new mechanics.
Its going forward just fine, the benefit of DSP to filtering was something we discovered, not something that was intended, so I can see why they are being removed. And yet, as someone else has said, you can still filter with combat probes (even cores, it is just a bit harder - but you want everything handed to you on a silver platter, right?).
If you don't like scanning so much, go run anomalies. |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
My knee jerk reaction to removal of the DSP was of denial and rage. However, once you think about it a little bit and realize they are making probing so much easier does one really need a dsp for pve scanning? 40% deviation and 20% scan strength per module is insane even with stacking penalities!!!! Furthermore, removing the inital NPC spawns and having WHs in their own group type makes things even easier. Now I might actually run all those mags and radars instead of just simply ignoring them. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:00:00 -
[79] - Quote
@CCP : all the hate about 8 probes and/or DSP and being able to launch only one probe is for people who want to check the signatures types in a quick scan (I'm talking about checking which of these signatures are of the groups we want to probe, and which are those we're sure we can ignore), or to isolate all the valuable signatures on at least one probe, and using only a few probes to do the scanning, it can't really be done with a formation. |
Jacob Kashyk
Starlighter Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:03:00 -
[80] - Quote
From what I understand, the new system scanner will replace using a DSP for just getting an idea of what sigs and types are in system. All in all, they're not killing exploration, they're making it better. |
|
Dasani Waters
Obstergo Polarized.
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
Is it possible to allow probe launchers to launch an eighth probe? The difference between a seven probe formation and an eight probe formation is only a few percentage points in signal strength, but that usually means the difference between immediately identifying the scan group of your signature or waiting for another scan. Over time, this adds up to a 25-50% increase in scan times for wormhole navigation. Considering that the scanning revamp is supposed to make scanning easier, reducing the total number of probes available amounts to a scanning nerf for wormhole scanners. |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Yeah with the changes, its a good chance things will be even faster without the DSP.
8 probes are still pretty important for combat probing though. I don't understand the 7 probe limit other than as a direct nerf to scanning multiple targets. |
|
CCP Paradox
803
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:11:00 -
[83] - Quote
Singularity is still being updated, and will be online later today. I am taking some notes of your questions, so I can present it to the team in condensed form. Nobody is here right now, and tomorrow is a national holiday in Iceland.
On Friday, we should have some answers for most of the questions. For now, please give everything a try on Singularity when it is available. (You can start downloading the client now)
Try what you are expecting, adapt to the system and try using it how you would if it was released as it is. This way we can see your feedback from a better perspective. Speculating on the changes from text form based on how you use the system right now will not carry the same weight as giving feedback after trying out Odyssey. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
The Nommo Insurance Fraud.
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:14:00 -
[84] - Quote
From reading the OP, here are a few suggestions and problems I have: Being unable to launch less than 7 probes - How about only launching several probes depending if you launch them as a formation? It would be areal pain if you have to self destruct because you for some reason got less than 7 probes but enough to technically scan down the WH. This could also include formations with less than seven probes. Finding what cloaked ship is being used is going to be harder now, they will only need a few seconds to launch their probes and then cloak up again. However I can see combat probes used somewhat differently in the battlefield now.
Got a few questions but I will wait for SISI to be online first. |
|
CCP Paradox
803
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
Dasani Waters wrote:Considering that the scanning revamp is supposed to make scanning easier, reducing the total number of probes available amounts to a scanning nerf for wormhole scanners.
Not easier, but more accessible. We are not trying to reduce the art of scanning down to a simple click, we are aiming to make scanning more accessible to those who want to use it, but still requires you to master the art. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Niddengolliah
VoodooTank Industries Games of Divinity
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
Just clarifying things: Will the Sisters DSP be converted into core scanner probe too, or will it become Sisters CSP? I have a fair amount of Sister DSPs and would hate to have them converted into cheap core probes... |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:15:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP Paradox, any ideas on when the new modules will be seeded? It would appear to me those new modules are going to make scanning a lot easier. If that is the case I am not too sure if I mind lossing out on the 8th probe too much. |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Forget the PvE aspect of Deep Scanner Probes. How about using them for scouting? WH dwellers typically use DSPs to check for new ship signatures system wide. D-Scan range should be buffed to 254 AU to compensate for the loss of DSP...assuming D-scan hasn't already been buffed to show ships past 14.35 AU in Oddessy. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
mkint
1033
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:22:00 -
[89] - Quote
scanner overlay shows you where the site is (without even having to push a single button) -> put pre-made formations around the site you didn't have to even bother triangulating, push button -> win. so... not 1-button win. 2-button win.
EVE is supposed to be hard. Apparently, it's only supposed to be hard if you aren't site farming in the nullbear blue donut. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
XXSketchxx
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
295
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:23:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:
Not easier, but more accessible. We are not trying to reduce the art of scanning down to a simple click, we are aiming to make scanning more accessible to those who want to use it, but still requires you to master the art.
Weird, it already had a certain art to master. |
|
Haulie Berry
606
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:29:00 -
[91] - Quote
Amy Garzan wrote:Do not like that we are not reimbursed for multiplier change.
Too bad. Skills change without reimbursement all the time.
Quote:Do not like that you have to launch 7 probes
There might be a valid complaint here, but I'm going to play with it before I get my **** in a twist over it.
Quote:Do not like that you effectively have to use addon mods to get the same results that used to get with pure skills.
There's no indication that this is the case.
Also, people complaining about virtue being rendered "useless" should think more and post less. |
Haulie Berry
606
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:31:00 -
[92] - Quote
dp |
Moth Eisig
The Trident Brotherhood
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:41:00 -
[93] - Quote
Amy Garzan wrote:Do not like that we are not reimbursed for multiplier change.
Bonuses are just moving from the secondary skills to astrometrics. There's no need for reimbursement.
Amy Garzan wrote:Do not like that you effectively have to use addon mods to get the same results that used to get with pure skills.
That's just . . . wrong. |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:51:00 -
[94] - Quote
So no more cherry-picking of 4/10? If yes, in that case a good change, crossing fingers. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:54:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish. Please reconsider this. If for some reason I end up in a WH with fewer than seven probes, but still have enough probes to be able to scan an exit, I should still be able to launch what I have and find my way out instead of being blocked for no apparent reason.
CCP Paradox wrote:Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock I like this, but could we please also have probes recall when their timer runs out, instead of getting blown up?
Overall looks like interesting changes. I'll have to try them to be sure. |
Liltha
Lost My Way Enterprises
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:00:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly.
Here is some feedback that doesn't require testing assuming I have read your post right.
You took away the current use of astrometrics, so to "compensate" you gave it aspects of the other 3 scanning skills. Then realizing that made scanning to easy it would seem you decided to nerf the remaining scanning skills so now I need rank 5 in those skills + rank 5 in astrometrics just to equal the bonus I got before this nerf. This is quite frankly crap, you should consider making the bonus to pinpointing and the like a little higher than half their current values to make the bonus from astrometrics a real bonus instead of a pointless salve.
|
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:05:00 -
[97] - Quote
Oh jeez. The locked-in-formation always-seven-probes thing is obnoxious, plain and simple. Not being able to launch probes at all if you have fewer than seven probes in your launcher is ridiculous. You have probes. You should be able to launch them. Probes shouldn't turn into dead weight if you don't have at least seven of them. |
Kai Pirinha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:22:00 -
[98] - Quote
I'm just testing the new scan system. On thing that's really bothering me: I do not seem to move all probes away or closer to the center at once. The "Pinpoint" (diamond) formation is nice for the default range. But if you change the probe size, then you need to change the relative distance of the probes to each other. With the old system, you could simply do that with one probe and "alt". This is not possible anymore and I have to move each probe seperately: 6 times the work! 6 times the time required!
/never mind, I just found it, you just have to press shift and alt simultaneously -.-'
Also I want to be able to use only one probe so I can quickly identify the wormholes in my system. If I have three wormholes in my system (or more, my record is 7) and I'm just looking for the C4, then I have to probe every wormhole now. With the old system it only took one probe to identify the signatures and see the size. You might argue: But a C4 is still smaller than a Highsec in a C2. Well yes, but it shows that you don't scan on a daily basis!
If I launch 7 probes and just look for the size, then a signature that is only covered by one instead of 3 or all probes will have a weaker signal strength and I will mistake it with the smaller wormhole signature(s).
/edit: I'm missing the columns on the system scanner, so I can sort my results by name or type or strength. This is important to me. |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:40:00 -
[99] - Quote
I'm tempted to say the "new" scanning system is terrible and that you guys should just leave it alone. But I'll just adapt...much less typing that way. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:42:00 -
[100] - Quote
Another thing is that once you scan something down to 100% it doesn't remember it anymore, so once you move onto a different sig you better have bookmarked that first once because now it is back to not having a warpable resolution |
|
Mario delTorres
Advanced Construction Technology Honey Badger Coalition
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
On sisi new T2 modules requires only level 1 of skill, the same as T1. I think it should be changed before it lands in tranquility. :) |
Jivlain Pollard
The Red Circle Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:49:00 -
[102] - Quote
Previously you could copy-paste signatures from the list in the scan window, and you could also sort signatures on any column - not just strength but also name. These were both rather useful when coordinating multiple scanners. You could, for example, copy out a complete list of signatures, put that in a shared document, and then easily find which signatures you were missing - if we're missing AUN-520, I could easily find AUN-520 in the ingame list by sorting alphabetically.
Now there seems rather impractical to coordinate multiple scanners. You can't copy-paste the list of signatures, and you can't isolate a particular signature by any means other than ignoring everything else. Can this functionality be restored? |
Saerni
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:54:00 -
[103] - Quote
List style feedback
1. I go to select one signature in the list, and all my probes are unselected meaning I have to go back to the list to reselect them in order to move them around.
2. Signatures scanned to 100% don't save themselves like before, once I start in on a new signature the old ones go back to normal.
3. The new system wide scanner does show signatures as well as anomolies, but not in the list version (which I would recommend you keep because without it that is a lot of flipping around the camera to keep an eye out (I am in wh space and like to keep an eye out for new wh's that pop-up. I do use a probe normally to keep an eye out, combat-type to see any random camping people, but if the new scanner is replacing DSP then those sites need to be listed properly or not at all.
4. The scanning mode is confusing. Is the new system scanner always scanning? The graphic makes it appear so and the scanner button would appear to be for just probes, but if this is not the case I would be curious to know.
5. Being able to launch a single combat probe lets me position it neatly and simply out of range of DS, making keeping myself safe easy. By removing the single launch ability, setting up a fairly standard safety net is not easy in a stupid way. Again, like showing scanning strengths of signatures within the list, this is something that needs to change from how it is currently.
That's all for now, more later |
Niddengolliah
VoodooTank Industries Games of Divinity
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:58:00 -
[104] - Quote
OK, my thoughts so far on probing. The bad: The 7 probes - the launcher still fits 8, so there is always one left, kind of confusing there, maybe change that to use only 7 probes too, or let us fire off the last one separately. VERY BAD - the scanner seems to 'forget' 100% hits, so if you move away from sig A to scan sig B, you lose sig A or sig A decreases from 100%. I hate this, make the scanner remember 100% hits like it is now in TQ. The spread is really unnecessary - a single 32AU probe used to cover most systems fine, and it was easy to remember which signal strength would provide the sig you are looking for (very important for speed scanning in WHs). VERY BAD - actually, the new system doesn't seem to display the actual sig percentage at all, so guesstimating sig types from sig strength is now nigh impossible
The good: The Diamond - very nice, much less fiddling around, but doesn't allow for finessing with those hard to pinpoint signals.
Confusing: Where did the probe timer go? Do the probes stay in space until DT/indefinitely now?
Sites: The new relic sites are looking very nice, love the whole religious backdrop with monuments and cathedrals, but I have absolutely no idea what to do in the hacking thingy - what is the goal there? Of course this is probably not even remotely finished, but I'd like to see some direction there, as right now it is looking pretty promising! (Love the animated ancient ships!)
|
Bobbi Quine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:00:00 -
[105] - Quote
I can see the utility of the probe formations, and moving the whole formation at once without holding down shift is nice but being locked into launching 7 probes is silly. Make it so that pushing the formation button launches a group of probes, but activating the launcher should still drop one at a time.
Losing the DSP and not having signal strength available is going to make life in a wormhole harder. I guess we can differentiate sites based on the size of the bar but the numerical value would be nice to have.
By far the worst thing so far is that sites aren't "remembered" once scanned to 100%. In the old system you could scan a sig to 100% and then move on to the next one without losing the ability to warp to the first. This is no longer possible.
The sensor overlay is actually kind of nice, but can we turn off the radar sweep animation without losing the sigs? It's a neat effect the first time but it gets old pretty quick (much like the new gate animation).
Hopefully you can iterate this a few times before the launch. |
Mister Vee
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:02:00 -
[106] - Quote
Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:
####
- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'
- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything
- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.
- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)
- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?
- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.
- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it
- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.
- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.
This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement... |
Yittrix
GP Academy
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:03:00 -
[107] - Quote
Issues I have found..
Unable to change the scan range of any probe.
* I launch 7 probes in formation but want to change probe 3 to 16 AU. The menu allows it but there is no change in the UI until you hit the scan button. The size the probe's sphere doesn't change either on the screen.
* I scanned down a wormhole and got it to 100% but once I moved the probes away the percentage dropped. Did not stay 100 % like the old scanner would.. Don't know if this is an designed change or an over look. Had the same result with a Data Site.
Shift + Alt to shrink the location of the probes together took a while to figure out. Also there is no on screen display to show you how large the scan diameter is for the probes. You must look at the scanner to determine this.
When you change the size of the range you have to click the scan button to have the scanner update the correct range. There seems to be a disconnect here.
I set one probe to 16 AU and the rest to 0.5AU but they all appear the same size on the screen
I do like the colored changing bar for the cosmic signature you scanning down. I also like the text size and font.
|
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:10:00 -
[108] - Quote
Thank you for ruining my interest in the game. I WAS a scanner mainly. I trained for months to scan fast and effectively, not in0game skills, but my own skills of placing probes and so on. Now you make it all Press A - press B - Press C, you win! No need to know the patterns, no need to understand what triangulation is. Is EVE a game for casuals now? No 8th probe, new modules that would not have place in our scanning T3s. Gravimetrics with on-ship scan. To hell with all that.
I' d really like to write a lot more, but what I 'd like to write to you is a violation of forum rules. |
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:10:00 -
[109] - Quote
Liking it so far. Please put the "scan" button back at the top of the window though; I ran a few scans and every time I was fighting muscle memory and moving mouse to the top of the window when the scan button is now in the lower pane. Don't see why it's been moved. -- |
Aidamina Omen
Aperture Harmonics K162
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:12:00 -
[110] - Quote
A lot of these changes offer a lot of quality of life improvements that I really applaud, I do have some feedback though. In its current state it is not ready for release.
Things I found that require changing before this goes live:
* Rows in scan result window need to be copy-pasteable, including the result strength in % rather then a bar. (some corps use this information in their internal tooling) * There's no progress bar on the active system scan * On sisi experienced several occasions of the client freezing up in the middle of scan cycles. (dont have this issue on tranquility atm) * In the past when you held shift all your probes moved, now it does the exact reverse. Makes it very counter intuitive for people who already do a lot of scanning. * When you release shift while you are moving probes the other single probe drag mode doesnt exit. (like it used to with the multi probe mode)
Since scanning is at the base of wormhole live I am sort of surprised to learn that we have not been directly contacted about these changes so we could provide feedback at an earlier stage. Maybe an idea to touch base with the new WH CSM representatives ASAP. |
|
Zeradn
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:17:00 -
[111] - Quote
Forgive me if anybody said this before, but I believe a 4 probe dispersal pattern would be really useful, along with the old 8 probe limit. Some people were asking about not being able to scan two targets at a time with the present setup. With 4 probe dispersal pattern, launching two such patterns could be possible, thus enabling the old strategy of scanning two locations at a time. It could also help those who just want to launch 4 probes.
PS: I hope you change the habit of the scanner forgetting scanned down results. I hope this has been just an oversight and not a planned feature. |
Kai Pirinha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:23:00 -
[112] - Quote
Changing the distance of the probes to one each other requires to press alt+shift. Alt+shift is already used by windows for changing the keyboard layout (in my case it toggles the layout between the German and the English layout).
So each time I want to rearrange the probes, it will change my keyboard layout. That's rather ****** to be honest. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:25:00 -
[113] - Quote
Overall, these changes are very disappointing. You've brought a number of minor usability changes to the scanning system which make a cumbersome interface easier to use. However, you're treating the symptoms not the problem.
Imagine you're a combat pilot. Is blowing up your 1000th ship boring? Or is it still as exciting as ever? I'll wager that most folks would think it's still fun.
Now imagine you're an explorer. Is scanning down your 1000th signature boring? Hell Yes! I'll wager most folks would answer the same. Scanning is a time-consuming hurdle you have to surmount to find/secure/identify the fun stuff.
But why? What's the difference between the two?... The first, involves an activity which changes every time, it's always different and there's infinite room for variation and interaction with others. The second, is always the same experience... every damn time. There's no variety (except what mostly-uninteresting-things you find, where you find them, and how long it takes to find something you actually want), and often times there's no interaction with other players within the scanning system itself, beyond a tedious game of "spam the d-scanner".
The problem is: the process of scanning itself is dreadfully boring. So what's to be done about this? Add challenges to the process:
- scanning interference (natural and artificial: e.g. solar flares, interstellar dust, gravitational lensing, jamming: preferably strawberry),
- scanner pvp... probe killing hunter killer drones (every scan the enemy makes brings their probes closer to destruction),
- false signatures (e.g. disguise your ship as another ship... Surprise! that's a Tengu not a Hulk),
- back-hacking the signal (use your enemy's probes to pinpoint or decloak them).
- scanning alerts (spamming the d-scanner isn't fun for anyone... if someone is trying to be sneaky and land probes undetected, the probing system itself should encapsulate that dynamic)
Basically, introduce problem solving and human interaction into the scanning/counter-scanning process. And, for goodness sake, don't let it be the same damn, mind numbing tedium over and over. |
Elendar
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:30:00 -
[114] - Quote
Is there a way to show range to probe results? Again rather significant to combat probing if this has been changed. |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:43:00 -
[115] - Quote
I'd say the number of "likes' to the initial post so far (6) is telling you all you need to know about this "changes". |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:45:00 -
[116] - Quote
The deep space probes were useful in larger systems and - what a wonder - we have a lot of them. I don't understand why they get removed. I used them in WH and in 0.0. |
Nox Arnoux
Aperture Harmonics K162
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:01:00 -
[117] - Quote
You've done a great job making the scanning system simpler by automating a lot of the things that had to be done manually before. Fair enough, maybe it's for the better that scanning becomes more intuitive than its current form. However the way you're implementing it is all kinds of awful.
1. Launching 7 probes at once into space in a wormhole is basically the same as waving your arms in the air screaming "HEY EVERYONE, I'M HERE! PAY ATTENTION TO ME DAMN IT!". While it's convenient for the casual scanner, hunters with subtlety will now die a painful death.
2. Automatically resizing and repositioning the probes may be all good and fun for locking down a single signature, it severely hinders our ability to cover the scan areas that WE WANT TO COVER. For example, we don't want or need the probes to be in their spread formation the second we hit launch... we want them clumped together, so we can use them to evaluate signature strengths without flinging our probes out to every corner of the system for people to dscan. Not to mention, we want to make our own probe formations without having to first drag them back into place.
3. Removing that 8th probe effectively dismantles many of the multi-sig probing layouts that veteran scanners have relied upon. I don't know whose call it was that 7 probes is the way to go, or why it was even necessary to take the 8th probe out, but they are wrong, and they have now angered the bitter vets.
I have no problem with making the system slightly easier to use for beginners, but those neat little automated features you've added that are supposed to be crutches for the new explorer are severe hindrances to the seasoned veteran. So I propose the following:
1. Make the scanning interface more customizable. A simple check box that disables many of these beginner friendly features would suffice. Give us the option to launch the probes 1 at a time if we choose, as well as the option to not have a computer automate our probe placements. This can't be rocket science to implement.
2. We need that 8th probe back. This is not a trivial matter. You've removed something that is critical to the level of depth scanning has evolved into.
3. Make the scan results copy/pastable. Otherwise the 3rd party tools we've developed over the years will be made completely obsolete. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:02:00 -
[118] - Quote
There is now scan history, which will show the change in acquired signal strength from your last scan. |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:04:00 -
[119] - Quote
Nox Arnoux wrote:You've done a great job making the scanning system simpler by automating a lot of the things that had to be done manually before. Fair enough, maybe it's for the better that scanning becomes more intuitive than its current form. However the way you're implementing it is all kinds of awful.
1. Launching 7 probes at once into space in a wormhole is basically the same as waving your arms in the air screaming "HEY EVERYONE, I'M HERE! PAY ATTENTION TO ME DAMN IT!". While it's convenient for the casual scanner, hunters with subtlety will now die a painful death.
2. Automatically resizing and repositioning the probes may be all good and fun for locking down a single signature, it severely hinders our ability to cover the scan areas that WE WANT TO COVER. For example, we don't want or need the probes to be in their spread formation the second we hit launch... we want them clumped together, so we can use them to evaluate signature strengths without flinging our probes out to every corner of the system for people to dscan. Not to mention, we want to make our own probe formations without having to first drag them back into place.
3. Removing that 8th probe effectively dismantles many of the multi-sig probing layouts that veteran scanners have relied upon. I don't know whose call it was that 7 probes is the way to go, or why it was even necessary to take the 8th probe out, but they are wrong, and they have now angered the bitter vets.
I have no problem with making the system slightly easier to use for beginners, but those neat little automated features you've added that are supposed to be crutches for the new explorer are severe hindrances to the seasoned veteran. So I propose the following:
1. Make the scanning interface more customizable. A simple check box that disables many of these beginner friendly features would suffice. Give us the option to launch the probes 1 at a time if we choose, as well as the option to not have a computer automate our probe placements. This can't be rocket science to implement.
2. We need that 8th probe back. This is not a trivial matter. You've removed something that is critical to the level of depth scanning has evolved into.
3. Make the scan results copy/pastable. Otherwise the 3rd party tools we've developed over the years will be made completely obsolete.
I endorse this wall of text. Also I would like my DSP back! We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
Tealdar Ohaya
Parallax Shift The Periphery
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:05:00 -
[120] - Quote
I like the new changes so far my only gripes are: the fact that completed 100% scanned results dont stick while you are scanning
not being able to resize the probes bubbles to overlap when in the spread formation scanning with gaps seems a bit in efficent to me..
and why don't the inital scan results appear in the scan list when your ship does the sensor sweep if it did that with inital strengths wont that cover the main use of the now removed deep space probe? |
|
Anariasis
Boris Johnson's Love Children
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:05:00 -
[121] - Quote
My little list:
- Launching 7 probes at once is fine. But only if you want to. I would like the option of launching 1 or 7 (or why not 8?) - Give us back our Deep Space Probes! They are great! They cut down the time to scan for WH exits by A LOT. Not by the range only, but by the signature strength. As a game designer you should know that, but to clarify: http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html?str=12.3&f=5&sec=3 - Please stop making us all equally good/bad at this game. Currently you need to know how to use a DSP, make a good probing setup, launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy etc.. After Odyssey we all just hit a button and then it's only skillpoints. Bah! - The spread probe formation is not overlapping, which is stupid. No one with an idea what he's doing is scanning like that. Just make them be overlapping right when you launch them. - Alt+Shift to move probes together/further apart was not easy to discover. Also Alt+Shift happens to CHANGE KEYBOARD LAYOUT FROM GERMAN TO ENGLISH! HOLY ****, THAT'S ANNOYING! (Win8 64bit UK if that helps) - If you set the screen to keep showing the sigs in space, the scanner continues to swirl around you as well - that drives you mad in about 2 minutes. - Why do probes manage to instantly return when you leave system but take time when you recall them? That's just broken game mechanics. Also, if you happen to forget your probes and notice 10 jumps out etc., then you made a mistake and deserve to have lost them. This is EVE, not WoW. - Sometimes it's nice to leave your probes behind, for example: you find a high/low/0.0-exit of your WH, jump in, have a look where it is, jump back , reconnect and continue scanning. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:05:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Seven probes launched at once Probe launchers can now only launch a maximum of seven probes. What? Why? Does it even make sense? The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:06:00 -
[123] - Quote
Kai Pirinha wrote:Changing the distance of the probes to one each other requires to press alt+shift. Alt+shift is already used by windows for changing the keyboard layout (in my case it toggles the layout between the German and the English layout).
So each time I want to rearrange the probes, it will change my keyboard layout. That's rather ****** to be honest. This.
Put it back on Alt only. I should never need to hold down two different modifier keys to use such a basic piece of functionality. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
628
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:12:00 -
[124] - Quote
It would be nice if after you probed out a site, it turned "green" in the tactical overview (after you back out of the map screen) and you were able to warp to them/do whatever like the other available always-100% anomalies in the system.
Hacking sites are very difficult to complete, most of the time you do not have enough coherence to survive all of the antiviruses. The sites are usually laggy as well and it sometimes takes a few seconds for clicks to register, which can be frustrating.
When you are able to complete them, the hacking window bugs out and nothing is jettisoned. (Bug ID 157522) |
CinXodr
Stone Circle W-Space
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:15:00 -
[125] - Quote
Ok. Just from test-server.
One absolutely critical thing: - You launch probes and they already gone to formation. Ok. Good. Formations are good. But far not the best, if you know what you're doing. ;) But to rearrange probes to your own formation - there is a problem: it's much-much-Much more cumbersome to rearrange probes from formation on different vectors, than from old-good-one "launched" points. Seriously. Allow to start to move probes from launched point, not from only from predefined formation.
Next. Some "righteous whine" from the one, who consider himself the professional scanner. ;) The 8th probe. Seriously. You're talking about "art", and I can say, that most of this "art" was right in this 8th probe. Far not many people know how to use it effectively, but who knows - make a huge difference from 7 probes with it. You're giving predefined formations for 7 probes, for casuals - good. Good formations, but not the best, so its good. ;) But at the same time you're removing quite a noticeable layer of deeper mechanic. Without visible reason. Seems quite disturbing, as for me.
Everything else seems adaptable, at least. %) |
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:17:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Try what you are expecting, adapt to the system and try using it how you would if it was released as it is. This way we can see your feedback from a better perspective. Speculating on the changes from text form based on how you use the system right now will not carry the same weight as giving feedback after trying out Odyssey.
Well, I am noting these down as I scan on Sisi. I hope that counts.
- Shift does the exact opposite of what I am used to it doing. This is going to be the most frustrating period of adaptation ever. - Customizable formations are absolutely needed. - When I resize my probes from the probe menu, the probes do not go back into formation in their new size. - I'd like a better indication of where each individual probe is in the formation. It's just a hazy blue ball by default. Having to press shift after each scan to reorient myself is getting old. - Can we skip the "shift" part of what is now "shift-alt-drag"? This goes hand-in-hand with the above point. - I miss the probe scan range overlay on the map, especially since the probe menu isn't reliably updating. - Not liking how a signature that you scanned to 100% is no longer retained. - The countdown bar that popped up in the menu that said "scanning" is gone. It was nice to have around, especially when scanning when you aren't in the map menu. - Where is the timer for how long I've had probes out? The probes still have a "maximum flight time" value, so I assume they still have a lifetime, but I have no idea what it is. This is doubly important if you can only launch probes if you have at least seven -- having fewer than seven is a death sentence, so you really want to know when your probes are going to expire. - Speaking of, not being able to launch probes if you have fewer than seven probes in your possession is silly. You do not need seven probes to scan something down. Pre-Odyssey, if you're trapped in a wormhole with six probes, you can escape. Post-Odyssey, you either take the pod express home or sit tight and hope someone finds you, even though if those probes were in space you could scan down every signature with ease. - The scanning overlay animation is getting old already. It's pretty and all, but I'm going to have it on constantly.
I'm not terribly pleased about being able to see signatures as they spawn without having to have probes out at all. One of the charms of wormholes is that you don't have that luxury.
I honestly can't tell at this point whether the usability hits/my issues with it are due more to bugs or to design. I will come back to this later after some bug fixes have rolled out (and please do some fixing; I can't simulate life on TQ if half of the things I do are glitchy) and give more feedback then. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:18:00 -
[127] - Quote
1. We need a sorting option, so sort by ID , group, strength, just keep the old scanning sorting bar
2. Prefer relief the restriction of "7 probes", if you have not enough probe, you cant scan any more in new method? I would like to launch all probe (in any number) in the launcher bay at once For example, if you have at least 7 probes, you can use the formation; if not, you can only launch them at a point.
3. For 100% signal, we often bookmark and warp to it at them, both functions are frequency used We would swap scan ship to combat ship for clearing the site Would it be added a "Bookmark" button for 100% signature?
Q : probe stay at space forever?? |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:19:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly. When changes don't make sense, you could at least elaborate. Or is it CCP corp policy to just drop the ball and call it done? Honestly, I'm fed up from Amarr BS thread already, to start yet another doscussion on "changes". The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:21:00 -
[129] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Dasani Waters wrote:Considering that the scanning revamp is supposed to make scanning easier, reducing the total number of probes available amounts to a scanning nerf for wormhole scanners. Not easier, but more accessible. So far, it looks like "dumbed so much that even a complete ****** could do it".
Quote:We are not trying to reduce the art of scanning down to a simple click But that's exactly what you did.
Quote:, we are aiming to make scanning more accessible to those who want to use it, but still requires you to master the art. What is there to master in "click to launch probes, click scan five times, get loot" ? The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1387
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:29:00 -
[130] - Quote
If you resize the probes with a drag, the range in the scanner doesn't update until you hit scan. likewise if you change the size from the menu. They change on screen, but the range doesn't update.
The pinpoint formation is nice :) though if you resize the probes from the menu, it doesn't recentre them.
Probes don't have any duration any more? (I hadn't seen that update)
You can only launch 7 probes at a time, rather than being able to poke by with less and using skills to compensate. If you try launching again, it says that you're already controlling 6 probes, which is the max for your skills (astrometrics 3 atm) looks like a missed error message.
(I assume the mini-game for hacking isn't in yet, as I'm just opening up the cans) Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
|
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:29:00 -
[131] - Quote
I am unable to use relic analyser on the relic site I found... the new object who seems to be the thing to hack doesn't accept this action. Tried with an analyser also in case of, but didn't work either. Site was a 'ruined guristas science outpost". I remember someone else reporting a similar bug with another site. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:34:00 -
[132] - Quote
Kai Pirinha wrote:Changing the distance of the probes to one each other requires to press alt+shift. Alt+shift is already used by windows for changing the keyboard layout (in my case it toggles the layout between the German and the English layout).
So each time I want to rearrange the probes, it will change my keyboard layout. That's rather ****** to be honest.
I had the same experience. I also find shift+alt a not very ergonomic combination if you use it a lot. Should't be a problem tho as long as the shortcut can be customized. But shouldnt stay the default either for the quoted reason.
Overall i find the scanning more pleasent and streamlined after getting used to it. But i agree with everybody that there should still be an 8th probe, customizable patterns and so on in order not to dumb the whole thing down for the more advanced probers.
Another thing, not sure if this is the right thread for it but i simply don't get the hacking game. On top of that it's extremely laggy/unresponsive. |
Risingson
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:42:00 -
[133] - Quote
Tanaka Aiko wrote:I am unable to use relic analyser on the relic site I found... the new object who seems to be the thing to hack doesn't accept this action. Tried with an analyser also in case of, but didn't work either. Site was a 'ruined guristas science outpost". I remember someone else reporting a similar bug with another site. same thing here. after shooting that can sisi client crashed. i stopped there. impression of new system up until the crash was disappointing in matters of evolvement Eveeye Prototype YD-114 Onboard Computer Systems |
|
CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
552
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:18:00 -
[134] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Kai Pirinha wrote:Changing the distance of the probes to one each other requires to press alt+shift. Alt+shift is already used by windows for changing the keyboard layout (in my case it toggles the layout between the German and the English layout).
So each time I want to rearrange the probes, it will change my keyboard layout. That's rather ****** to be honest. This. Put it back on Alt only. I should never need to hold down two different modifier keys to use such a basic piece of functionality.
Interesting. I'm one of those guys that is constantly switching keyboard layouts and I hadn't noticed this but of course I don't type a lot on my local since there is no one to talk to (forever alone '). I guess the best way is to simply have alt pop up the other controls and then function as before. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
|
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:24:00 -
[135] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Kai Pirinha wrote:... Alt+shift is already used by windows for changing the keyboard layout ....
....Put it back on Alt only. I should never need to hold down two different modifier keys to use such a basic piece of functionality.
Or better yet, make it user definable. Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
LtauSTinpoWErs
Mafia Redux Phobia.
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:27:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back? And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left). There will be no compensation for those skill changes.
I have some questions and then some information listed below. I am asking you all and especially CCP to take a look at this. Thank you.
Since the current skills are 5x and 8x mulitpliers, it means that more skillpoints have been trained for that skill. When the Odyessey changes are implemented, it will require less skillpoitns per level. Will the extra skillpoints that have already been trained for those respective skills, be put toward the skill's next level or will they simply vanish? Will a Level 4 skill currently in TQ, become Level 4.2 or 4.5 (meaning that it is closerto level 5 because of the skillpoints already trained). If so, what will be given to those who have already trained those skills to level 5?
In all due respect, please take a look at the following:
Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing currently are 5x multiplier skills. To get from Level 0 to Level 4 in these respective skills, requires 226,275 skillpoints. Astrometric Rangefinding is a 8x multiplier skill which needs 362,039 skillpoints to get from Level 0 to Level 4.
The new skill changes will make Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing 2.5x, although I imagine this rounds up to 3x multiplier. To reach Level 4 with a 3x multiplier skill requires 135,765 skillpoints. This means, that after the skills are adjusted for the Odyssey release, Capsuleers that have trained these skills to Level 4 will lose 90,510 skillpoints per skill.
Astrometric Rangefinding would become a 4x multipler skill, now needing only 181,020 to reach Level 4. Capsuleers that have trained this skill will lose 181,019 skillpoints.
That would be a total loss of 362,039 skillpoints if you have currently trained those skills to Level 4. It would be an even greater deficit if you have trained those skills to Level 5.
If you are average 1,900 sp/hour. Then 362,039/1,900 = 190.55 hours lost or 7.94 days thrown out the window. I don't see how losing over a week worth of training is irrelevant. |
Balint Vazsonyi
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:29:00 -
[137] - Quote
8 PROBES NEEDED.
There are two very important reasons why removing the 8th probe is bad. 1. Many 'dedicated' scanners use the 4/4 pattern. Here's a video showing it, but summary is that it's very fast and very loved by wormhole dwellers, who have to scan daily. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TisDb8c2aS4
So you have 4 probes set to 8AU and in the center 4 probes set to 2AU (or 1AU if you don't have virtue implants) , the outer set gets a hit, then you center the inner set on that hit and you get the 100% strength hit. You don't have to change patterns, you don't have to resize the probes, it's awesome. Makes for much faster combat probing as well. Of course, you have to astrometrics to 5 to do it, which is a long train, this is nice because it creates a niche for dedicated scanners.
2. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, you can have two separate scans going on with 4 probes each.
So yeah, please consider keeping 8 probes. I think they're used more than most non-dedicated scanners might think. |
Beliar Gray
Alpha Sleepers
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:29:00 -
[138] - Quote
I believe everything that I want to say has already been said.
-8 probes
-ability to launch just one or 4 probes
-scan percentage
-sort by ID/type/range/strength
-alt+shift changes keyboard layout, thank you very ******* much
And do you realize that deviation modifier of 0.75*0.75 is 0.5625 and not 0.5 like it was before? Its not just 1.25*1.25=1.5625 for strength. Are 7 probes at lest as strong as 8 were before?
Remove warp to button we don't want it, I believe I can speak for all of us actual scanners.
This seems incredibly RUSHED, I suggest you tweak it A LOT before oddy or there will be blood on the forums.
What... Skillpoints lost? Are you trying to rob us of our plex we invested to train those? You better make those skillpoints reallocatable if not for something else this decreases value of our characters if we are ever to sell them. |
|
CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
552
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:33:00 -
[139] - Quote
CCP Paradox has already mentioned this but it is past our bedtime here in Iceland and tomorrow is a public holiday. So just because we are not replying doesn't mean we are ignoring you. I have read the thread and there are some recurring points we will definitely discuss internally. Most of the issues raised concern game design and I'm not really equipped to answer those issues. Those that are not seem to be just bugs which I will address.
Thanks for all the feedback, it is invaluable to us https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
|
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:34:00 -
[140] - Quote
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back? And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left). There will be no compensation for those skill changes. I have some questions and then some information listed below. I am asking you all and especially CCP to take a look at this. Thank you. Since the current skills are 5x and 8x mulitpliers, it means that more skillpoints have been trained for that skill. When the Odyessey changes are implemented, it will require less skillpoitns per level. Will the extra skillpoints that have already been trained for those respective skills, be put toward the skill's next level or will they simply vanish? Will a Level 4 skill currently in TQ, become Level 4.2 or 4.5 (meaning that it is closerto level 5 because of the skillpoints already trained). If so, what will be given to those who have already trained those skills to level 5? In all due respect, please take a look at the following: Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing currently are 5x multiplier skills. To get from Level 0 to Level 4 in these respective skills, requires 226,275 skillpoints. Astrometric Rangefinding is a 8x multiplier skill which needs 362,039 skillpoints to get from Level 0 to Level 4. The new skill changes will make Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing 2.5x, although I imagine this rounds up to 3x multiplier. To reach Level 4 with a 3x multiplier skill requires 135,765 skillpoints. This means, that after the skills are adjusted for the Odyssey release, Capsuleers that have trained these skills to Level 4 will lose 90,510 skillpoints per skill. Astrometric Rangefinding would become a 4x multipler skill, now needing only 181,020 to reach Level 4. Capsuleers that have trained this skill will lose 181,019 skillpoints. That would be a total loss of 362,039 skillpoints if you have currently trained those skills to Level 4. It would be an even greater deficit if you have trained those skills to Level 5. If you are average 1,900 sp/hour. Then 362,039/1,900 = 190.55 hours lost or 7.94 days thrown out the window. I don't see how losing over a week worth of training is irrelevant. Now, consider, that you get increase scan strength (and other related attributes) from this change. At max skills, you get 6.25% more, than you've had befre the change. And dare you complaining? The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
|
Haulie Berry
610
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:35:00 -
[141] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:It would be nice if after you probed out a site, it turned "green" in the tactical overview (after you back out of the map screen) and you were able to warp to them/do whatever like the other available always-100% anomalies in the system.
Hacking sites are very difficult to complete, most of the time you do not have enough coherence to survive all of the antiviruses. The sites are usually laggy as well and it sometimes takes a few seconds for clicks to register, which can be frustrating.
When you are able to complete them, the hacking window bugs out and nothing is jettisoned. (Bug ID 157522)
Pretty sure it's not in yet. After you beat the minigame, you should be able to find loot with the open cargo right click option. |
Beliar Gray
Alpha Sleepers
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:35:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:CCP Paradox has already mentioned this but it is past our bedtime here in Iceland and tomorrow is a public holiday. So just because we are not replying doesn't mean we are ignoring you. I have read the thread and there are some recurring points we will definitely discuss internally. Most of the issues raised concern game design and I'm not really equipped to answer those issues. Those that are not seem to be just bugs which I will address. Thanks for all the feedback, it is invaluable to us
As long as you actually listen to our suggestions we can wait. I have a feeling that we players understand the scanning mechanics far better than you devs do.
I very much doubt you guys ever get around scanning. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4908
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:35:00 -
[143] - Quote
Mister Vee wrote:Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:
####
- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'
- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything
- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.
- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)
- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?
- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.
- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it
- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.
- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.
This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement... This, plus the scanner not remembering sigs previously scanned to 100% It's broken until these things are fixed. Do not release it in this state. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
658
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:36:00 -
[144] - Quote
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back? And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left). There will be no compensation for those skill changes. I have some questions and then some information listed below. I am asking you all and especially CCP to take a look at this. Thank you. Since the current skills are 5x and 8x mulitpliers, it means that more skillpoints have been trained for that skill. When the Odyessey changes are implemented, it will require less skillpoitns per level. Will the extra skillpoints that have already been trained for those respective skills, be put toward the skill's next level or will they simply vanish? Will a Level 4 skill currently in TQ, become Level 4.2 or 4.5 (meaning that it is closerto level 5 because of the skillpoints already trained). If so, what will be given to those who have already trained those skills to level 5? In all due respect, please take a look at the following: Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing currently are 5x multiplier skills. To get from Level 0 to Level 4 in these respective skills, requires 226,275 skillpoints. Astrometric Rangefinding is a 8x multiplier skill which needs 362,039 skillpoints to get from Level 0 to Level 4. The new skill changes will make Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing 2.5x, although I imagine this rounds up to 3x multiplier. To reach Level 4 with a 3x multiplier skill requires 135,765 skillpoints. This means, that after the skills are adjusted for the Odyssey release, Capsuleers that have trained these skills to Level 4 will lose 90,510 skillpoints per skill. Astrometric Rangefinding would become a 4x multipler skill, now needing only 181,020 to reach Level 4. Capsuleers that have trained this skill will lose 181,019 skillpoints. That would be a total loss of 362,039 skillpoints if you have currently trained those skills to Level 4. It would be an even greater deficit if you have trained those skills to Level 5. If you are average 1,900 sp/hour. Then 362,039/1,900 = 190.55 hours lost or 7.94 days thrown out the window. I don't see how losing over a week worth of training is irrelevant. Asking for clarification here.
As I read the original post I interpreted it as meaning only the bonuses given by the skills are changing, not the training modifiers. IE: Rangefinding gives 5%/lvl rather than 10%/lvl but remains as an 8x multiplier skill and as such take no less SP or time to train. |
Haulie Berry
610
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:38:00 -
[145] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As I read the original post I interpreted it as meaning only the bonuses given by the skills are changing, not the training modifiers. IE: Rangefinding gives 5%/lvl rather than 10%/lvl but remains as an 8x multiplier skill and as such take no less SP or time to train.
This. They are not changing the rank - they are changing the EFFECT of the skills. No compensation is needed. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:39:00 -
[146] - Quote
Now that I've actually used it briefly: - Probes are continuously deselected in the list, so if I'm changing size from there, I have to repeatedly re-select them. That's not much of a problem though, as dragging them to resize in the map is easier, faster, and automatically resizes the formation. - When going through a wormhole with probes out, there's a warning popup that the probes will be left behind. This isn't true anymore and should probably be removed. - System transition while on the map view (went through a wormhole, don't know about jumpgates) is bad. All the UI disappears and it looks rather incomplete and broken. - Signatures viewed in space and signatures viewed on the map become desynchronized easily. If I've already probed down or visited a given signature, the scan overlay view in space should show that as a 100% hit. Vice versa, if I see a sig result in the space overlay, I should see something in the map. - Leave map while probes are scanning, go back to map--box & arrows don't appear until you drag one of the globes or hit shift. - What is the "signal strength" of results in the overlay? Is this the sensor band of the result? If so, that's kinda cool to have it visible in the overlay, it would be nice to have in the map view as well. That makes the lack of deep space probes less frustrating for quickly getting a look at the system. - As someone who lives in a wormhole and often doesn't want to immediately warp to things I've probed down, the "warp to" button isn't a good thing. I can already warp to the site from the context menu, I don't think you need to devote that much UI space to a button for it. - The list of probes is a lot less useful with the large print font size. - Probe formations show up centered on the system instead of centered where I am, even though the probes themselves are where I am.
Overall it does seem to be an improved system (if you're going for ease-of-use). |
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
55
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:40:00 -
[147] - Quote
Loving the changes! I can understand there's limitations in places on what could be made in time, and I'm honestly fine with 7 probes.
Being able to shift, rearrange and deploy all like this is brilliant! I absolutely love this!
The new modules look cool and offer a nice bonus. Will try them out asap.
I'll get into a site as soon as I find one to run >.< Scanning is so much more enjoyable now though, and that's what I;m here for, not a professor level grind of spreadsheets, but to EXPLORE. |
Tritanium Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:50:00 -
[148] - Quote
-I think it's ok to be able to launch only 7 probes at a time, what 's the use of launching 1 probe if 7 take the same time? only thing the number of probes you get with launcher capacity makes no sense
-As someone said, the scanner forgets about signatures already probed to 100%, i can't imagine mapping the signatures in a wh like this
-The green lines showing the probes warping are not showing
-Is the timer for probe warping/scanning gone? |
Jivlain Pollard
The Red Circle Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:53:00 -
[149] - Quote
Individually clearing ignored sigs does not work properly. Specifically, it has no effect on ignored signatures and instead seems to cause all other signatures to also be ignored. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
Beliar Gray wrote:Are 7 probes at lest as strong as 8 were before? 7 probes at 0.5625 is slightly stronger than 8 probes at 0.5, about 0.857% stronger (using Elisa Fir's formulas).
Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
|
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:59:00 -
[151] - Quote
For the first release onto the test server it's pretty good. I'm liking most of it and the bits I don't are probably bugs (the hacking mini-game).
So, looks promising and I'll be looking forward to the polished version.
p.s. I'm not fussed about having 8 probes, 7 work fine, if anything it's a lot easier to scan stuff (possibly too easy) |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 01:01:00 -
[152] - Quote
* so once again you guys are changing something and ******* over ppl who already skilled all those skills, thx for no sp reinbursment again, i understand you guys want to make it easier but is ****
* formation is nice, but i want to be able to launch less than 7 probes, cause thats basically stupid to tell us have/launch 7 probes or you are stuck forever, plus sometimes it only needs 1 probe for example to update a sig after dt
* pls make the alt shortcuts available and not stupid new stuff like alt + shift
* once probes highlighted it should stay like that, after scanning we need to do that everytime again atm
* why you guys removing deep space probes, dont remove them or give us more range on scanner probes at least, its a joke to scan a 100+ system with only 7 scanner probes
you wanted to make it easier, you didnt, you just make it annoying to scan for those who doing that since a long time |
Galphii
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 01:08:00 -
[153] - Quote
Adjusting the probe scan range does not adjust the 'pinpoint targeting' configuration, making it rather pointless as it's fixed to 4au (too small for system scanning, too broad for actual pinpoint work). I used to use 4 or 5 probes just fine in the old system, and now to use the buttons I need 7, and have to manually adjust them all as I go down through the ranges, making this system more tedious than the old one. I'd like to see the probe configurations change to optimise around the point when the range is increased/reduced, otherwise it's just more pointless busywork with a shinier appearance.
X |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 01:43:00 -
[154] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Adjusting the probe scan range does not adjust the 'pinpoint targeting' configuration, making it rather pointless as it's fixed to 4au (too small for system scanning, too broad for actual pinpoint work). I used to use 4 or 5 probes just fine in the old system, and now to use the buttons I need 7, and have to manually adjust them all as I go down through the ranges, making this system more tedious than the old one. I'd like to see the probe configurations change to optimise around the point when the range is increased/reduced, otherwise it's just more pointless busywork with a shinier appearance.
Try dragging the probe spheres in the map to increase or decrease the size. |
Ong
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 01:53:00 -
[155] - Quote
Dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but tbh its almost 3am and I cant be arsed to read 8 pages of forums to find out.
1) When I change the size of probes by selecting the outside of a probe and dragging in or out, I need to be able to see the size of the probe before not after I scan.
2) While I always scan with 7 probes, it is vital to be able to scan with less. If I, for example got stuck in a wh and have only 5 probes for whatever reason and not 7, I can currently still scan myself out, might take more time, but its possible. Under this new mechanic I cant, this is flat out pants on head saying wibble crazy. I would flat out rage if I got stuck and could not scan myself out of a wh with 5 probes knowing I used to be able to do it with the old (current) system. |
Oxigun
Galt Innovations Eve Engineering
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 01:56:00 -
[156] - Quote
As a dedicated WH dweller, I use scanning on a daily basis and I rely on it for my ISK (and my life). Here are some comments on the new scanning mechanism which i have now tested for over an hour...
1) I'm sorry I don't see the reason why DSPs were removed. WH dwellers use them to establish signal strength. If that is no longer going to be the idea, please tell me why. I have trained my toons to maximum skill so I can make use of this ability. I don't see why it's been taken away. 2) You have your idea of what a "useful" probe formation is and I have mine. Please let me do my job the way I want to do it, not the way you want me to do it. I understand you want to help newbs by making it easier but I'm not a newb, I want to use my own formation, whether it's 4, 7 or 8 probes. Please let me launch my probes individually as I see fit. 3) On the subject of probe numbers, I would prefer to keep the 8 probes. I believe I have a useful formation that minimizes moving/resizing of probes to scan an entire system and benefits from a larger number of probes. Once again, don't take away something you gave me and I trained for just because you think players don't use it. 4) On the key assignments and visualization: Please don't make such difficult combinations to move probe formations/resize. The previous iteration was fine, Shift and Alt had a purpose, let's not make it more complicated. I guess I can live with having to hit shift to even see the probe handle but I don't see why I have to press a key anyway. 5) Please add back the columns as they were in the previous system. We like to sort things in our own special way, whether alphabetically or by strength. There are benefits to both.
IMHO, you're trying too hard to make this "easier" for new players and removing the freedom from established players. I'm sorry to say that it feels like you're dumbing down the game just because scanning required some skill and (very few) brain cells...
Thank you for your time,
Oxi PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire? |
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 02:02:00 -
[157] - Quote
Oxigun wrote:PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire?
This. I forgot to ask.
|
Mad Crafter
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 02:23:00 -
[158] - Quote
-Do we have to see the green wave circling our ship at all times while the scanner overlay in visible? -I can no longer center the camera on celestials by clicking on them in the map view. This makes getting the camera to work they way I want difficult. -Cosmic signatures are showing up on the overlay at low signal strength. Intended? -Can we get a list of everything on the overlay somewhere? I found myself panning the camera in every possible direction after entering a system to check if their were any sites. It would be easy to miss one though. -Can we get the info from the system scanner to show up on the overlay too? Right now it just shows the original scan results -Can the info from the overlay be put on the system map? This will kinda make the spread formation obsolete for exploration. -Clicking and dragging anywhere close to the probes spheres will re-size the probes range. This combined with not being able to center the camera makes adjusting the view frustrating. |
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 02:41:00 -
[159] - Quote
I actually like the changes, although they are not without a need of some polish here and there.
Re: removing DSP & removing the ability to drop one probe -> For core scanners and checking signature quantities, you don't need them anymore. The overlay shows you what signatures and anomalies are in the system without having to drop a probe. Furthermore, you can mouse over them to see their relative strength. It will take re-tabulation, but aside from finding extreme distance safes the DSP is completely obsolete.
Re: Needing to shift to move a single probe / alt to scale their position. -> Mostly not needed anymore. Dragging the probe AU bubbles automatically repositions (similar to what alt does now) and adjusts the size of the scan. It automatically snaps to the appropriate increments. All you need to do is move the center probe around and click drag the bubbles to resize. Moving single probes for me was only to check to make sure I didn't miss one if the system was larger than 32AU across.
Things that need to be fixed however: 1) 100% hits don't stay at 100% hits once you rescan. Hopefully an oversight. 2) Adjusting the range bubbles don't update the range in the scanner interface until you hit analyze - makes it hard to get a frame of reference how your probes are set, particularly if you're combat scanning and you need to get it right the first time. 3) Custom probe layouts should be included. My standard layout was similar to the pinpoint layout, but not exactly. I shouldn't need to tweak it the same each time. 4) With #3 in mind, some way to have 8 probes would be nice. If it's a definite no, I'll adapt.
A nice to have: 5) Any chance to have an option to turn the scanning overlay on in the system map? Not to show where the signatures are of course, but to show them at infinite distance so you can drag your camera around to eyeball an approximate location without having to use planets as frame of references? Alternately, can you have a setting to optionally have the system map default to the orientation your space camera is facing? |
HTC NecoSino
TriFlexure Void-Legion
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 02:42:00 -
[160] - Quote
Oxigun wrote:As a dedicated WH dweller, I use scanning on a daily basis and I rely on it for my ISK (and my life). Here are some comments on the new scanning mechanism which i have now tested for over an hour...
1) I'm sorry I don't see the reason why DSPs were removed. WH dwellers use them to establish signal strength. If that is no longer going to be the idea, please tell me why. I have trained my toons to maximum skill so I can make use of this ability. I don't see why it's been taken away. 2) You have your idea of what a "useful" probe formation is and I have mine. Please let me do my job the way I want to do it, not the way you want me to do it. I understand you want to help newbs by making it easier but I'm not a newb, I want to use my own formation, whether it's 4, 7 or 8 probes. Please let me launch my probes individually as I see fit. 3) On the subject of probe numbers, I would prefer to keep the 8 probes. I believe I have a useful formation that minimizes moving/resizing of probes to scan an entire system and benefits from a larger number of probes. Once again, don't take away something you gave me and I trained for just because you think players don't use it. 4) On the key assignments and visualization: Please don't make such difficult combinations to move probe formations/resize. The previous iteration was fine, Shift and Alt had a purpose, let's not make it more complicated. I guess I can live with having to hit shift to even see the probe handle but I don't see why I have to press a key anyway. 5) Please add back the columns as they were in the previous system. We like to sort things in our own special way, whether alphabetically or by strength. There are benefits to both.
IMHO, you're trying too hard to make this "easier" for new players and removing the freedom from established players. I'm sorry to say that it feels like you're dumbing down the game just because scanning required some skill and (very few) brain cells...
Thank you for your time,
Oxi PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire?
This ^^^
A thousand times over... It feels like you are just catering to the lowest common denominator and forgetting that Eve is supposed to be a challenge. This just spoon feeds the scanning system and takes away one of the best tools a scanner has, the DSP. Why? So that we can launch 7 probes at once.. Big whoop.. |
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Tendon O'Mathy
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 02:43:00 -
[161] - Quote
As someone has spent the time training all of the skills to be the ultimate scanner, I feel screwed out of experience. Mathematically maybe not..by these changes...it makes it easy to play this game..I don't play cause it is easy.
Don't make this an easy game please.
You are taking away my accomplishments. The day I could drop 8 probes, that were DSP's and scan down a WH in 3 minutes vs. 10 minutes was a wonderful day..now you are watering that down. |
Cage Man
201
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:01:00 -
[162] - Quote
I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
658
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:06:00 -
[163] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus now is if you stop scanning. |
Fredrick Kalirande
GalOre Industries HELM Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:11:00 -
[164] - Quote
Good day!
I've been running a few sites in low sec minmatar space, this is the feedback I have so far:
- Although there was not a few explanation, I quickly understood the fact that I no longer need to use hotkeys to move all my probes around, it took 2 systems for me to figure that out but I quickly got use to it and I rather like that change. The changes in the scanner were also a bit confusing at first, but easy to adjust to.
- On that note, the new interface doesn't allow the modification of the size of category cells in the scanner. Since my screen is a bit small, everything is labelled "Cosmic" to me, unless I expand this window to nearly half my screen size. I would like to have the possibility to adjust the cell's size back.
- Auto formations worked great for me, releasing all 7 probes at once is great, but reduce the vulnerability time of covert scanning ships.
- The scanner doesn't save signatures previously locked at 100% strength like the old one. Again, not a big deal, I just "ignore" the signature after pinning it down and bookmarking it. However, it would be nice if those would still remain saved to 100% strength for as long as I'm in the system, like in the current TQ client.
- All the minmatar (angel cartel) hacking and archaeology sites that i've been to are currently not functioning properly in low sec. All the nodes are already unlocked when I get to them, analyzer modules didn't work (Error message, you cannot use data analyzer on Angel Hacking 1), and the loot is acquired by simply opening the inventory. Also, all the lootable cans are stacked on each others in every sites I've been so far, I'm not certain this is intended.
- Because of the above mentioned issue, no rats were spawned in the sites and the hacking minigame never prompted, so I don't have any feedback on this.
- The loot all button is missing from those anomaly site's cans (could be intended)
- New scanning modules were not seeded where I was, but I didn't have any problem scanning anything down without them in low sec. (I have what I consider to be average scanning skills points)
- Looted sites did not despawn after leaving them.
- Probably unrelated to exploring per say, but in combat sites, a few wrecks were randomly abandoned (turned blue) without any input from me. This happened seemingly randomly on frigate and destroyer rats. I wasn't using drones and I was the only player in the system. Happened in both Anoms and Signatures on one or 2 rats in every pockets. I didn't found anyway to recreate the bug myself.
This is all I have for now!
Cheers! |
Saerni
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:14:00 -
[165] - Quote
A note on the blue wrecks, it tended to be the first ship I killed in a site when I randomly ran a few. This was also true for belt rats in low. |
Squatch
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:30:00 -
[166] - Quote
Naomi Hale wrote:Oxigun wrote:PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire? This. I forgot to ask.
They definitely expire. Left a set out in space and closed the client, ran some errands IRL and couldn't reconnect to them when I returned ~2hrs later. Losing probes due to connection outages coupled with the inability to use anything *other* than 7 probes at a time will make getting stranded in w-space with 4-6 probes in your cargo/launcher a very real possibility. |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:37:00 -
[167] - Quote
Please do not take ship distances out of the probing window, it is absolutely necessary for fleet PVP to determine which ship you are warping your fleet to when you get a 100% probe scan off. If you take out the distance column you're basically telling us to play russian roulette with our fleets. Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:46:00 -
[168] - Quote
My first impression is one of disappointment.
I've been exploring since you had to drop bookmarks and lay out your probe patterns for system coverage. I welcomed the scanning changes with Apocrypha and trained my skills so I could use 8 probes including Deeps. So imagine my surprise to find they're gone. I scan with 4 deeps and 4 combats. Works amazing for scanning out WH systems with lots of sigs.
I like the ability to drop all probes with one click in formation, but any decent scanner can drop their probes and have them setup in seconds so this isn't that big of a deal unless your aim is to remove pilot skill in scanning.
As noted by other posters, the 100% sig not staying at 100% is an annoyance.
Not sure what the hell the spread formation is. Is that your attempt to make up for the loss of deeps? If so, it fails.
I'll fiddle some more with the new setup but as it is now I don't see where actual skill will be needed. Drop 7 probes, hit scan, drag probes to center of sig, reduce au, scan, get bacon.
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Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
231
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 03:58:00 -
[169] - Quote
I don't like the magical probes at all. Remembering to recall your probes and going back to get them was part of paying attention. I just left probes on one side of a system, with my cargo open to watch, warped to a gate on the other side of the system at zero. Then jumped. They were back in my cargo hold as soon as I hit jump.
People lost probes a lot. They had to buy more. Probes are expensive enough that you learn to manage them. Now they will just reappear. Yuck. Remembering your probes was not hard. Now you don't have to do anything but remember to not let them time out.
As I said that, relaunched a set. I also don't see a timer on them anymore, so they no longer expire? Probes are now immortal unless downtime?
When they said they auto recalled I thought they'd warp to you and get to you or not get to you as other things do. I did not expect them to just reappear. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
Powers Sa
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:12:00 -
[170] - Quote
Junko Sideswipe wrote:Please do not take ship distances out of the probing window, it is absolutely necessary for fleet PVP to determine which ship you are warping your fleet to when you get a 100% probe scan off. If you take out the distance column you're basically telling us to play russian roulette with our fleets. Yes this breaks 50% of pizza's gameplay (bombing).
All the other whining by wormhole residents is glorious. RIP carebears. Vote Nullsec for CSM8 Mynnna || Kesper North || Kaleb Rysode || Malc00nis || Artctura || Unforgiven Storm |
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Rhavas
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:blink alt wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
Deep Space Probe removal They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.
Can you confirm this is a planned changed for odyssey expansion not just some test server limitation? Planned changed, they will be removed with Odyssey.
Why?
They were extremely useful for high-skilled pilots, especially in wormholes.
In addition, since you are halving the usefulness of the advanced astrometrics skills per level, will you also be halving their training time?
It seems like you're taking some very time-intensive skills and tools that separated people who invested from those who didn't and basically making everyone equal.
I love a lot of the changes you're making but these two I couldn't disagree more with. Author of [url]http://interstellarprivateer.wordpress.com/[/url] |
LtauSTinpoWErs
Mafia Redux Phobia.
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:39:00 -
[172] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As I read the original post I interpreted it as meaning only the bonuses given by the skills are changing, not the training modifiers. IE: Rangefinding gives 5%/lvl rather than 10%/lvl but remains as an 8x multiplier skill and as such take no less SP or time to train.
This. They are not changing the rank - they are changing the EFFECT of the skills. No compensation is needed.
All of that work because I misinterpreted the OP's post :(
On that note, all I want are my DSP. |
Boltorano
Owner Operated Transport Service
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:14:00 -
[173] - Quote
Just finished spending an hour or so trying out the new scanning system.
Most of it will just take getting used to but these two things are really bothering me:
Removal of the DSP as a tool for determining the total number of ships/signatures in a system does nothing but make scanning more annoying. Even if they no longer provided the ability to filter out signatures by their base signal strength I would still want to use them, as having to use the onboard scanner to figure out how many signatures are in a system by moving the camera around is a real chore.
I don't understand why you're removing the ability to use the minimum of four probes to scan down a signature. It's nice that the new formations allow you to launch all 7 in a nice formation (saves me a lot of effort I never bothered with before) but if somebody ends up in a situation where they are stuck in w-space with only four probes now they will be SOL, where they wouldn't before.
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Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:22:00 -
[174] - Quote
Hi log in to Singularity today and tried out your new scanning system.
The potential is there but at this moment, it is too cumbersome to use.
Problems
- Big annoyance for me is probe selection. Every time I press shift and select all probes, the moment I do something else all probes are deselected. - Another major issue is the ability to move all probes together along any random axis. - Took awhile to figure out how to move all probes together. - Selecting middle probe to move all probes in a formation only along one axis is tedious. - The UI sometimes does not update. For example, let say I select probe 1, and set the size to 4Au. The UI wont updated until I press scan. - The UI seems a bit clunky, and lag is noticeable.
Suggested Improvement
- All probes selected should remember their state, and remain selected until deselected. - Please allow the movement of probe or selection of probes along any random axis while only selecting one of the surfaces. (*Currently this how it is in Tranquility) - Maybe have a little tutorial runs to highlight changes made to scanner the 1st time the scanner window is opened. - Have UI immediately updated
Thank you for your time! |
Nethras
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:28:00 -
[175] - Quote
While the idea behind a lot of these changes seems good, not removing major tools or information sources in doing so is pretty critical as well. Stuff like distance being available for fleet warp target selection being the most important of course, but there are some more minor issues that really need to not get dismissed as part of the "oh no, the sky is falling, don't change anything!" whining.
First off, DSP removal and not being able to scan with single probes makes it much tougher to figure out the base strength of sites in a system. While not gamebreaking, that's a pretty major piece of information to lose access to - please make sure that is still accessible in some form, whether just putting it in as another data cell column, or a scanning mode that gives single probe results. Either way, extra probe ranges being added so that combat probes could reach max DSP range would be ideal and help fully render DSPs as redundant rather than leaving some edge cases we'd still want them for.
Secondly, give us a way to bookmark formation location and scaling, preferably multiple such bookmarks (and not clearing them when we leave system, though a cap on just how many we can have period would make sense). One of the major benefits of not using all your probes as a single group is that you can effectively keep track of where you were in scanning a system, and be able to swap to your other 4 probes and in one scan get previous results back again. This really helps if your initial scan around a planet/planet cluster got decent results on a whole bunch of sites you need to narrow down separately. Being able to bookmark probe formation locations and swap back to them would go a long way towards alleviating this loss of functionality without making the new system as complicated as the old one. It would also partially replace being able to jump back into a system and reconnecting for hunting purposes. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:45:00 -
[176] - Quote
Here's some things you should look at (in order of flow through):
Scanning:
- Left clicking the "scanner button" in the HUD, produces a radial menu. Selecting the "System Scanner" from this menu does not automatically maximize the window if it has previously been opened and minimized.
- If I go through a stargate while in solar system map, my UI momentarily disappears and the map just suddenly switches from one system to the next. Shouldn't it "zoom out and back in" or something?
- As a side note, while in the "star gate jump tunnel" Mouse-over tool-tips such as from a "show info" window still pop-up as you move the mouse.
- It would be nice if your chat window stayed open while you're in the "star gate jump tunnel". Pretty though it may be, disappearing windows interferes with game play during a moment when you can't do much else. This is bad.
- The warning message for when you jump into a new system with your probes out is still displayed even though they will be returned to you.
- Now that we have a visual for the "system scanning sweep": Some sort of visual feedback should be added for D-Scan as well. An overlay should show us what angle our d-scanner is working at.
- Despite my "sweeping scanner" having detected all the cosmic anomalies/signatures upon jumping in to a system, they do not show up on the scanning window's list until the analyze button is used.
- It would be nice to be able to disable the "system sweep scanner" visual effect but still be able to see the signatures in space. Maybe if you only had it go around 1 or 2 times when you first warp in to a system? After that its a bit too gaudy.
- Unidentified sites are not listed in the scanner window, so you have to pan around trying to see them all. This is not ideal. Especially since they are automatically given to you when you enter the system.
- "Signal strength" values in the tool-tips are too truncated, you need to show precision out to at least 2 decimal places (the lowest being 1.25%). Also it should be called "Signature Strength". "Signal Strength" is what % your at while scanning.
- The sorting bar with the "type", "group", "id", ect... is missing from the scanner window. This is annoying especially in big systems with lots of sigs, where you want to be able to sort the list.
- The "type" field says "Cosmic" instead of "Cosmic Signature"; although, "Cosmic Anomaly" is still correct.
- Each line in the scanning window eats up WAY too much space, especially in crowded systems. There needs to be an option for the lines to be smaller.
- When first launching, the probes' "starting position" is where ever you place them in the system map rather than right next to your ship... This can make for rather long probe warp times in some instances.
- It would be nice if you could set up your probes for the next scan while your previous scan was underway. I've been tired of waiting for the scan to finish for years.
- It would be nice if double clicking on a red dot centered the camera... or better yet the probe constellation on the dot. (I know we're venturing in to "bottable" territory here, but it's annoying to have to pan your camera twice or more to center the dot)
- If you want a truly useful "history" then you should save all "spheres, circles, and dots" that have ever been made for a signature. Then, when selecting that signature, the user can visually eyeball where previous scan results overlap or cluster together in order to better guess where to scan (even if their last scan didn't include that signature). Especially since general direction and signal strength of all the sites are automatically given to you. you should just be able to pick one out from the list and see where all the previous scans of that sig intersect. This history should persist until the site has been 100%'d. Previous scans should be color coded, to indicate which scans have lower deviation, and thus, more fidelity in the signatures actual position.
- When you put it back in, the "scanning in progress" bar, should NOT overwrite the data field which shows all the signatures. For those of us that keep records, it's annoying as hell not to be able to jot this stuff down while we're waiting on the next scan.
- When you put in the "custom probe formations", please allow not only "position" but also "scan radius" to be preset. When using such custom probe formations, please maintain the difference in "scan radius" when probes have different radii. So, for example, if I have 4 probes at 8 AU and 3 (or 4?) probes at 2 AU, when I re-size, I should have 4 probes at 4 AU and 3 (or 4? please!) probes at 1 AU. This should persist all the way down to minimum size, whereupon it collapses, but is remembered by the system: such that, if I have 8 probes at .25 AU, and I re-size upward, I should have 4 probes at 1 AU and 4 probes at .25 AU. I hope that's clear, because it would be a GOD sent of a time saver.
- From a mathematical perspective, our ships "knowing" the position in the sky of a signature would allow us to know pinpoint the position of a signature simply by warping from one side of the solar system to the other. Even just dropping one probe and getting a "distance to target" would pinpoint the signature. The whole idea behind probes is that Trilateration only uses distance. Once you have a pair of angles to go with a distance, pinpointing is very easy. Basically, you're breaking "Verisimilitude" by allowing us to see the sigs before we've pinpointed them because, then, locating them would be trivial (you could do it with 1 probe reporting distances).
Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:45:00 -
[177] - Quote
Hacking Feedback:
- Obviously, you can't interact with the hackable containers and relics using the specified equipment. Instead you have to use the right click menu > "open" to begin playing the game. This means you do not start the game with the benefits of skill or equipment. (boil this down to "its the test server", and "aren't you glad you can play more than once without having to find a new sig?"... answer... "yes, on the test server")
- Archaeology "relics" produce the same game, it should really be different.
- If you fail the hacking game, it says "loot jettison imminent". Doesn't the word "loot" breaks immersion? Shouldn't it be something like "Info shard?"
- Quite often, when you click a node, the graphics wont change although the state will... for example the node stays green but neighboring nodes now behave like it has turned red. Or the node attacks you but it still looks like a green dot, so you have no clue why.
- It would be nice if, in the hacking game, taking out subsystems would weaken the core. This way exploring the network architecture could pay off in ways other than the (currently) nearly useless helper-tools. Also it would be interesting if the network reshaped itself when you reached certain trigger points.
- I should think skills like Minmatar Encryption Methods should help in hacking racial pirate systems in some way. Perhaps the network should start out obscured, and these skill books let you see "see" deeper into the network without having to actually click a new node.
- Shouldn't honey pots be the "surprise" defense system at a data cache, rather than a firewall to nowhere?
- Honey pots shouldn't block access to the neighboring network nodes, their effect is simply to be annoying, not "annoying + firewall". As it stands they're rather OP.
- It would be nice if there were racial variants (or at least visual themes) on the hacking game. Spinning cylinders locks for the Caldari, sprawling Network nodes for the Gallenete, poorly connected wires and duct-tape for the Minmatar, Elegant geometric designs for Amarr.
Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
APEnglish
Trade Consortium EntroPraetorian Aegis
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:49:00 -
[178] - Quote
Question on the new modules: Do stacking penalties apply? My reason for asking is this: If there are no stacking penalties, why wouldn't I just stack multiple modules on my (free) ibis to make it equal or better at probing than a (not free) buzzard? In addition, why should anyone bother spending a 4-week duration training skill prerequisites to competently fly covert ops ships, when instead they could spend those 4-weeks training the astrometric skills which would apply to probing done by all the ships ships they own?
In short, my worry is that this change could directly diminish the value of the specialized advantage for covert ops ships. Sure, covert ops warp cloaked, but there's plenty of other (more versatile) ships that can warp cloaked.
Also, I really like the idea of making one module with multiple scripts instead of three modules. I would carry several stacks of scripts everywhere I go & change them immediately to suit my needs; but I highly doubt I would carry around 3 stacks of modules around to adapt my ship to my scanning needs.
Also: So long as you're improving the probing system, there's one "little things" inconsistency many pilots would appreciate resolving:
When improving a ship's probing ability, pilots decide whether to fit tech-1 or tech-2 gravity capacitor upgrade rigs. However, due to calibration requirements, ships can only have either two tech-1 gravity capcitor rigs or one tech-2 gravity capacitor rig. The result is that a probing ship rigged with two tech-1 rigs performs better than (and is cheaper than) a probing ship rigged with one tech-2 rig. So upgrading to tech-2 rigs results in a relative decrease in probing performance with the only benefit of freeing up 1 rig slot (which is not typically worth the expense). This decrease in performance when upgrading to tech-2 rigs is inconsistent; it would be great you could make a change to make tech-2 rigged probing ships perform better. Perhaps increasing the bonus provided by tech-2 rigging or decreasing rigging calibration costs would be enough? |
Elinea Ausene
NorthWest Russian Corp Proxima Centauri Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:52:00 -
[179] - Quote
i have just log in sisi and now you have to forget my previous message =) jumps are amazing
about new scaner i want to ask you give us in additional to nice scanner overlay some scanner window with all signatures list. it was the first in using deep space probe and i need it. Really i have move my mouse to every signature in space to understand what it is and to write on paper signal strength. it isnt comfortable.
and i think you know, that signature, i was scanned at 100%, doesn't save in signature list if i try to scan another one. i hope its bug) |
TheButcherPete
The James Gang R O G U E
242
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:05:00 -
[180] - Quote
Will hidden ore sites (such as the current Grav sites in 0.0) be instantly warpable to with the new discovery scanner? If so, 0.0 mining will slowly die. The cloaky assholes will directly be a threat (even if we're trying to get things done with them in local) and I just feel mining will hurt as a whole. Bzzt.
GÖÑ Punkturis GÖÑ ElQuirko is my son |
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Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
273
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:05:00 -
[181] - Quote
- Copy pasting sig ID's dont work (keep screwing with WH people and You will get another "small part of community" thread)
- I guess that with the new scan overlay doing basically what deep space was doing before, all 100% sites should be visible on map, they dont until you run on-board scanner
- on-board scanner dont show progress bar
- pls seed new scanning modules
- Spread fprmation is useless - pls dont put in game buttons to do useless stuff and teach new players wrong things
- selected probes deselect after scan
- DSP was very important for keeping track of new ships in space and also was much better for DSP pribing (looking for specifis signal streanght) then combat probes - give it back
- I cant lunch probes when i have less than 7 - what if i lost some probes? its possible to scan with just 4, so why dont we are able to scan with 4?
- Is the probe timer removed?
- stuff scanned with overlay scanner whould show on list - its not showing untill you use probes/on-board scanner
- scanning radial menu keeps forcing you to press buttns, when you move mouse away and click to close it keeps slicking on of the buttons in the direction you moved mouse away
- there should be a sound indicator when scan overlay detects something after jumping into system - right now i have to frantically ship-spin in space to see if there is anything
- green line warp indicators are gone
- i can no longer center scaning UI around one of my probes using visual ui, i have to double click on list where you dontk know which probe globe" is which probe (edit: ok, i can double click on arrow cube)
- things scanned to 100% dont stay scanned down
excluding those problems I see light at the end of the tunnel for this new feature. Keep working and DONT RELEASE AT THIS STATE Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:07:00 -
[182] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:A few questions:
1) Why are deep space probes being removed? 2) Why are we being limited to exactly 7 probes? 3) In wormholes will we see NPCs in Radar/Mag sites, or have they been removed? This isn't 100% clear from your post 4) With the new scan deviation modules, is it possible to reduce scan deviation to 0?
Have you considered that the removal of deep space probes will make 256AU safe spots nearly impossible to find?
From what I can recollect, at present time, no one can warp out that far. In fact I believe there is a limitation that prevents people from warping to a bookmark more than 20 AU from any celestial, but please correct me if I am wrong. If this is the case, although you used to be able to make extreme long distance safe spots, you cant anymore. DSPs were a good idea at the time because it allowed you to get people who were able to warp to bookmarks that far out; however, since they cant anymore, DSPs are nothing more then used to do a one scan in HS and if it isnt a 4/10 move on. To be honest, that isnt enough IMHO to keep the probes in the game. Obviously they were designed for a specific purpose which no longer exist, thus there is no reason for them to either. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:09:00 -
[183] - Quote
TheButcherPete wrote:Will hidden ore sites (such as the current Grav sites in 0.0) be instantly warpable to with the new discovery scanner? If so, 0.0 mining will slowly die. The cloaky assholes will directly be a threat (even if we're trying to get things done with them in local) and I just feel mining will hurt as a whole.
Yes, all mining sites will be warp to anomalies including those in 0.0 and wormhole space, and no mining will not die. In 0.0 you have it good, you have this magical little window called 'local' that tells you when someone has entered, and if you are paying attention you can warp out before they even get to you.
In wormhole space, it would be wise to use another character or person as a scout and sit on your connecting wormhole(s) to warn you. If you do that, there is absolutely no flippin reason you cant still mine. It just requires you to actually play the game and pay attention if you want to. |
Haulie Berry
610
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:14:00 -
[184] - Quote
Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design. |
Derdrom Utida
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:19:00 -
[185] - Quote
Won't having probes auto-recall on dock/jump harm the core probe market? |
Jim Orland
Furyan Federation Fade 2 Black
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:34:00 -
[186] - Quote
All of my concerns have been covered in previous posts. However, I'd like to add an aspect to copy-pasting of probe results: it's not just useful for corp tools, it's also useful to get single-probe hits on the sigs and copy the base results out to notepad for reference later. The sig parser tools are important, yes, but it's not just about that. |
Liltha
Lost My Way Enterprises
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 06:35:00 -
[187] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning.
Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills.
Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players.
Unless I read the original post wrong that is. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:00:00 -
[188] - Quote
Liltha wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning. Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills. Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players. Unless I read the original post wrong that is.
Yes, I can see how that would be bad.
PRE Odyssey
- Astrometrics - Probe count
Acquisition - (-10%) Scan time. Pinpointing - (-10%) Scan Deviation Rangefinding - (+10%) Scan Strength
Odyssey
Astrometrics - (-5%) scan time, (-5%) scan deviation, (+5%) scan strength Acquistion - (-5%) scan time Pinpointing - (-5%) scan deviation Rangefinding - (+5%) scan strength
Essentially they just took something that was 100% effective and 0% effective and re-ordered it so that its 50% effective and 50% effective. Its still a loss of 100% of a skill. I agree, thats bullshit.
However, there are other uses for the Astrometrics skill, for instance you need lvl 5 to even train jump portal generation. Also, you need the skill at lvl 3 for Astrometric Acquisition and lvl 4 for Astrometric Pinpointing, so removing the skill isnt an option. I suppose CCP could reimburse the skill points from that skill to everyone and let them decide what they want to do with it. However, if you want to keep the training in Astrometric Pinpointing, you still need Astrometrics 4. The only useful purpose for training it to 5 is for jump portal generation. Besides that, all the way up to level 4 it DOES have a purpose. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1807
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:01:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Probe launchers can now only launch a maximum of seven probes. These probes are now launched all together. One click, launches all. please oh please dont do this. why remove being able to launch 8 probes? this is a massive nerf to probing.
i REALLY hope this gets changed back to 8 allowable probes. |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:23:00 -
[190] - Quote
Beliar Gray wrote:I believe everything that I want to say has already been said.
-8 probes
-ability to launch just one or 4 probes
-scan percentage
-sort by ID/type/range/strength
-alt+shift changes keyboard layout, thank you very ******* much
And do you realize that deviation modifier of 0.75*0.75 is 0.5625 and not 0.5 like it was before? Its not just 1.25*1.25=1.5625 for strength. Are 7 probes at lest as strong as 8 were before?
Remove warp to button we don't want it, I believe I can speak for all of us actual scanners.
This seems incredibly RUSHED, I suggest you tweak it A LOT before oddy or there will be blood on the forums.
What... Skillpoints lost? Are you trying to rob us of our plex we invested to train those? You better make those skillpoints reallocatable if not for something else this decreases value of our characters if we are ever to sell them.
All the above plus:
- ability to copy/paste scan results - do not loose signature results that have already been scanned to 100% - probes expiration time - remove automatically recalled probes when jumping docking (what's wrong with the warning msg you get today??) |
|
Silvonus
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:30:00 -
[191] - Quote
I played around with the probing today on Sisi. It's different and so I'm slower at it, but it seems to be a step in the right direction. With that said though, there are numerous bugs and issues I have with it:
- The biggest issue is the systems scanner does not save 100% signatures. For example, after you scan something to 100%, move your probes off of the target and run a scan, you will not see the original 100% and loose all knowledge of it, so you have to rescan it down from scratch again. This must be fixed, else people with get very upset when this rolls onto TQ.
- You cannot copy-paste scan results. This is something that most WH corps use extensively to coordinate, using both 3rd party tools and in chat. Having to type out ID names is very very annoying. This and the above are the two most important things to fix, the rest below are annoying, but not critical.
- In the system scanner, there is no differentiation between "cosmic anomaly" and "cosmic signature" as I suspect that the end gets truncated, so you only see "cosmic".
- As you have already added in the OP, the distance from the scanner is missing. Also, the current size of probes not just the size from the last scan.
- Do probes expire? There is no timer anymore. If they do expire, this needs to be added.
- Can the return probe/deactivate buttons return (you have plenty of room in the window)? Currently you have to go through a contextual menu, and I was hoping we would see fewer of those, not more.
- Clicking a dot in the solar map (F10) does not highlight the signature in the system scanner. The other way around still works though.
- Scaling currently is "alt-shift" please change it back to just "alt".
Those are the issues I had. I would like to see better integration with the in-space sensor overlay, but I will comment on that in the other forum thread. Overall though, I think the new probing scanner is more accessible without changing the formula nor elements involved with actually probing something down. The color coding is very nice, especially when I can see the amount that changed from one scan to another. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:30:00 -
[192] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:Beliar Gray wrote:I believe everything that I want to say has already been said.
-8 probes
-ability to launch just one or 4 probes
-scan percentage
-sort by ID/type/range/strength
-alt+shift changes keyboard layout, thank you very ******* much
And do you realize that deviation modifier of 0.75*0.75 is 0.5625 and not 0.5 like it was before? Its not just 1.25*1.25=1.5625 for strength. Are 7 probes at lest as strong as 8 were before?
Remove warp to button we don't want it, I believe I can speak for all of us actual scanners.
This seems incredibly RUSHED, I suggest you tweak it A LOT before oddy or there will be blood on the forums.
What... Skillpoints lost? Are you trying to rob us of our plex we invested to train those? You better make those skillpoints reallocatable if not for something else this decreases value of our characters if we are ever to sell them. All the above plus: - ability to copy/paste scan results - do not loose signature results that have already been scanned to 100% - probes expiration time - remove automatically recalled probes when jumping docking (what's wrong with the warning msg you get today??)
I wish they would change it, either recal the probes instantly or abandon them. The other day I tried to scan my exit down in a wormhole, got it locked and warped to. I didnt call my probes in because I wanted to keep scanning when I came back in from bookmarking the outside, and I didnt want to set my probes back up. I figured hell, Ill jsut jump out and reconnect when I come in.
When I clicked the jump button in the selected item window nothing happened, I spammed it and then tried rightclicking on the bracket for the hole and selecting jump that way...still nothing happened. Finally I tried recalling my probes. I spammed the jump button and exactly right after my last probe was in...i jumped. It lead me to believe that you can't go through a wormhole while you have probes out. |
Simon Severasse
Los Marginales
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:35:00 -
[193] - Quote
What's going to happen to Wormhole Radar and Magnetometric sites? are we going to lose the sleepers? do we get an improved loot with aditional t3 salvage and maybe some sleeper spawns on box opening? Are we losing the talocan ship that sometimes spawn in there?
Are the Gravimetric sites changed to get aditional sleeper waves after some time like empire ones?
Are the gas sites changed? |
Derdrom Utida
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:43:00 -
[194] - Quote
Selecting the top probe, holding shift, and clicking the last probe after scrolling selects all of the probes, something I used to change the scan strength of all probes in one go. Now, every scan uselects the probe list. Please make it sticky like it is currently on TQ. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
660
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:50:00 -
[195] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Liltha wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning. Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills. Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players. Unless I read the original post wrong that is. Yes, I can see how that would be bad. PRE Odyssey
- Astrometrics - Probe count
Acquisition - (-10%) Scan time. Pinpointing - (-10%) Scan Deviation Rangefinding - (+10%) Scan Strength
Odyssey Astrometrics - (-5%) scan time, (-5%) scan deviation, (+5%) scan strength Acquistion - (-5%) scan time Pinpointing - (-5%) scan deviation Rangefinding - (+5%) scan strength Essentially they just took something that was 100% effective and 0% effective and re-ordered it so that its 50% effective and 50% effective. Its still a loss of 100% of a skill. I agree, thats bullshit. However, there are other uses for the Astrometrics skill, for instance you need lvl 5 to even train jump portal generation. Also, you need the skill at lvl 3 for Astrometric Acquisition and lvl 4 for Astrometric Pinpointing, so removing the skill isnt an option. I suppose CCP could reimburse the skill points from that skill to everyone and let them decide what they want to do with it. However, if you want to keep the training in Astrometric Pinpointing, you still need Astrometrics 4. The only useful purpose for training it to 5 is for jump portal generation. Besides that, all the way up to level 4 it DOES have a purpose. 2 5% skills are greater than one 10%. It's a gain, not a break even. Especially so if you had scanning skills at 5/4/4/4.
Edit: Also T2 probe launchers require Astro V |
Prinzessin Leia
Nefarious. Disavowed.
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:57:00 -
[196] - Quote
small addition:
As the probes automatically drop in the spread formation the camera in the solar system map is not centered ontop of the probes anymore. Not that much of an issues but its annoying, at least for me.
If i use diamond formation the default probe range is 4AU, if i change to 2AU the probes are not in the close together diamond formation but still on their place for 4AU. If i know hit button for diamond formation to get them together they resize to 4AU. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:01:00 -
[197] - Quote
Acquisition, Pinpointing, and Rangefinding need to have their ranks lowered (and skill points refunded). It's rather absurd to have 5x and 8x skills that give you such a tiny benefit compared to what you can get with ship bonuses or modules. |
Zetaomega333
HIFI INDUSTRIAL Claimed.
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:05:00 -
[198] - Quote
So with the new scanning mods being midslots basically Gallente and Caldari as hands down the best scanning ships due to 5 midslots over the minmatar/amarr with 4. Is this going to change? |
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:06:00 -
[199] - Quote
I've sent two bug reports for use with the Scanner button-radial menu. I'll mention them in here too:
- The hover state of the 'parts of the pie' is not determined by the edges of the parts. Sometimes being near the edges makes you lose the hover state (and ability to click). Also, there are (seemingly changing) positions where the pointer is still over one part (option), but another part is actually given the hover state. => The hover state of the radial menu must be based on the edges of the parts, nothing else!
- When you click anywhere with the radial menu open, the pointer will reset to the place on the Scanner button where you clicked it to open the radial menu. => Let me control the pointer, thank you!
Further: - Great that you remember the last launch pattern used (for when activating on the probe launcher)!
- Aren't those data and hacking sites converted to the new system yet? I found this Data Site - Unsecured Perimeter Comms Relay that looked just like before (with sleepers). Or is that only changed in K-space? - As mentioned before; probes show up in system map positioned around the sun, while they are really around your ship. I expect the spheres to be in the center of the view, which is my ship (unless I pan around myself). - What's the idea about adding those modules? I guess I like the option of reducing scan time. But what's the point of having skilled everything to level 5 (I even specialized an alt for that) if I can get quite for with just modules too?
- I scanned down (and bookmarked) a data site. Why does it still show up as an Unidentified Site in the (3D) Sensor Overlay? Everything scanned to 100%, bookmarked or not, should be in there.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
660
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:12:00 -
[200] - Quote
Zetaomega333 wrote:So with the new scanning mods being midslots basically Gallente and Caldari as hands down the best scanning ships due to 5 midslots over the minmatar/amarr with 4. Is this going to change? Amarr I can see this complaint, but what ship class are you looking at that the Minmmatar lineup doesn't have an option with comparable mids to a Gallente ship? |
|
Liltha
Lost My Way Enterprises
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:14:00 -
[201] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Liltha wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning. Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills. Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players. Unless I read the original post wrong that is. Yes, I can see how that would be bad. PRE Odyssey
- Astrometrics - Probe count
Acquisition - (-10%) Scan time. Pinpointing - (-10%) Scan Deviation Rangefinding - (+10%) Scan Strength
Odyssey Astrometrics - (-5%) scan time, (-5%) scan deviation, (+5%) scan strength Acquistion - (-5%) scan time Pinpointing - (-5%) scan deviation Rangefinding - (+5%) scan strength Essentially they just took something that was 100% effective and 0% effective and re-ordered it so that its 50% effective and 50% effective. Its still a loss of 100% of a skill. I agree, thats bullshit. However, there are other uses for the Astrometrics skill, for instance you need lvl 5 to even train jump portal generation. Also, you need the skill at lvl 3 for Astrometric Acquisition and lvl 4 for Astrometric Pinpointing, so removing the skill isnt an option. I suppose CCP could reimburse the skill points from that skill to everyone and let them decide what they want to do with it. However, if you want to keep the training in Astrometric Pinpointing, you still need Astrometrics 4. The only useful purpose for training it to 5 is for jump portal generation. Besides that, all the way up to level 4 it DOES have a purpose.
Ah yeah forgot about jump portals. However it being a prerequisite for the other skills could be changed so thats neither here nor there. Just feeling a bit annoyed about the whole thing is all. Feels like they are taking away pretty much everything good about having astrometrics to 5 and replacing it with a salve that they pulled from my other skills. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:21:00 -
[202] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Octoven wrote:Liltha wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning. Actually this is bullshit. It doesn't really give a bonus because the bonus it gives is taken away from existing skills. Before Pinpointing gave 10% per level, now it gives 5% per level and Astrometrics gives the other 5%. If they had left pinpointing and such alone and just removed Astrometrics altogether he would be in the same place. The only people helped by the bonuses added to astrometrics are new players. Unless I read the original post wrong that is. Yes, I can see how that would be bad. PRE Odyssey
- Astrometrics - Probe count
Acquisition - (-10%) Scan time. Pinpointing - (-10%) Scan Deviation Rangefinding - (+10%) Scan Strength
Odyssey Astrometrics - (-5%) scan time, (-5%) scan deviation, (+5%) scan strength Acquistion - (-5%) scan time Pinpointing - (-5%) scan deviation Rangefinding - (+5%) scan strength Essentially they just took something that was 100% effective and 0% effective and re-ordered it so that its 50% effective and 50% effective. Its still a loss of 100% of a skill. I agree, thats bullshit. However, there are other uses for the Astrometrics skill, for instance you need lvl 5 to even train jump portal generation. Also, you need the skill at lvl 3 for Astrometric Acquisition and lvl 4 for Astrometric Pinpointing, so removing the skill isnt an option. I suppose CCP could reimburse the skill points from that skill to everyone and let them decide what they want to do with it. However, if you want to keep the training in Astrometric Pinpointing, you still need Astrometrics 4. The only useful purpose for training it to 5 is for jump portal generation. Besides that, all the way up to level 4 it DOES have a purpose. 2 5% skills are greater than one 10%. It's a gain, not a break even. Especially so if you had scanning skills at 5/4/4/4. Edit: Also T2 probe launchers require Astro V Edit 2: Another thought, since all the probes within range of a target contribute to the result now and astrometrics increased the number of probes one could use it indirectly had the same effect prior, though one could simply choose not to take advantage of it.
Yes, indeed you are right. I have 5/3/3/3 so it will deffinately help me. However, to those who have 5/5/5/5 it is still breaking even. I was just pointing out that the skill has a purpose. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
228
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:28:00 -
[203] - Quote
Tried doing a little scanning yesterday on Sisi. Normally in TQ I can scan down any signiture. However yesterday on Sisi I could not get any signiture past 40%!!! Am I missing something, or is this just seriously borked? I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:33:00 -
[204] - Quote
One more remark thing;
I feel there's a disconnect between the Sensor Overlay and actual probing. The overlay looks really nice, but nothing of what you see there translates into the system window you use for probing. It's almost like the probing in the system scanner will have to be replaced by something else. But clearly, with the changes you're making there, that doesn't seem to be the plan.
As others said, you kinda can pinpoint down Unidentified Sites by warping around? Maybe you should not position those in space, but show for the planet that there are unidentified sites out there. Then you can easily 'copy' that information into the system window. Mark the planet red or something like that.
I have to join the comments of others that the Sensor Overlay looks nice. But it takes quite a bit of panning around to see what's out there. I have a FOV of about 66 degrees. Heck, in combat sites I sometimes can't even find the 'center' :).
In the scan results, the animated progress bars (growing to 'full' percentage) looks fancy, but I feel it distracts from the goal. Especially when there are a lot of results and you have to scroll around (which makes 'newly' shown entries have that animation).
|
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:38:00 -
[205] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Tried doing a little scanning yesterday on Sisi. Normally in TQ I can scan down any signiture. However yesterday on Sisi I could not get any signiture past 40%!!! Am I missing something, or is this just seriously borked? I had no troubles.
Did you use the spread or the pinpoint formation? The first is the initial default when you click on the probe launcher. If you launch the pinpoint formation from the Scanner window, it will use that the next time (unless you launch the spread formation again). |
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:40:00 -
[206] - Quote
I commented on the radial menu before.
I finally figured you're supposed to use it by clicking the Sensor button, holding the mouse button and then dragging to the quadrant you want to activate. I'm not sure that even then the mouse pointer should reset. But it certainly should not when you click-click instead of press-drag-release. |
Zombie132
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:41:00 -
[207] - Quote
I think it's awesome the "busy work" has been taken out of scanning.
These things are great (keep all these things!):
- Launching all the probes at once - Easily resizing all probes all at once - Launching into certain formations - Seeing all signatures on the overlay - Recovering all the probes quickly
These are things I think can be improved:
- In certain profession sites eve tends to chug/shudder, not sure if that's the loading, the lag, or what - The scanner keeps sweeping if i'm in space ... over and over... after the first two sweeps, can we just see the signatures and not the sweeps?
|
Kronossan
Bellum Esca Peregrine Nation
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:49:00 -
[208] - Quote
You're already this far into the development of the feature and will probably not invest the time required to overhaul your work so far to be more in line of what the majority of players seem to want. You normally only see the more vocal part of the community complain if they dislike something. This time around we've seen a lot of constructive feedback about this feature from the people who went to or saw the stream of fanfest.
I have a question for you regarding this new probing system: Wouldn't exploration just become a mindless and boring grind (like missions or mining) by doing all the work -for- the players, when you take away all incentive to read up about the feature to learn as much about it as the player can and to improve their actual skill?
Let me elaborate: - You keep mentioning constantly that probing something down takes skill. I disagree as it is just a matter of placing the center probe on the sig, dragging the surrounding probes in closer and reducing their scan sphere (rinse and repeat until you get the signature). Granted, in lowsec and nulsec you have other factors but I am ignoring those because this is about exploration and not pvp or pvp avoidance. - The only way a player can get an edge over competitors is to know as much as possible about the sites as there is (probe formations, site names, which modules to use, etc.) but you're handing all this information on a silver platter now (site name changes to what you can expect, probe formations are done for players by the system) - Some of the probing skills are being nerfed, because I have these skills trained to a high level already, I'll have even more useless skillpoints on my character and the price of clones is high enough already to keep me from getting into PVP more
User scenario in Odyssey: -> Launch probes into optimal pattern with single click -> Move probes around a bit, hit scan button, resize scan area -> Repeat above step as often as required to scan down a site -> Site type reads 'Combat site', I'll think "cba with a combat site right now" -> Scan down new site, warp there, do my thing -> Next system
Nice sense of wonder and mystery indeed.
|
Egg McMuff
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:59:00 -
[209] - Quote
CCP i think i need to puke after trying this scanning system, its terrible. Most of the guys that have posted have got it spot on please do not give us this. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:59:00 -
[210] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Tried doing a little scanning yesterday on Sisi. Normally in TQ I can scan down any signiture. However yesterday on Sisi I could not get any signiture past 40%!!! Am I missing something, or is this just seriously borked?
I had the exact opposite effect, normally it takes me anywhere from 1-2 minutes to lock a sig down. Today I was locking them down really fast. Found virtually any site in under 3 scans or 30 seconds. |
|
JohnnyRingo
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 08:59:00 -
[211] - Quote
After testing the new changes out on singularity i am very disappointed with the new probing interface. The probes themselves work just fine, very handy removing all the tedious positioning etc, however the interface is very lacking, it has much less functionality than the previous one. No sorting of signatures, it automatically sorts after strength which i do not like, i want to be able to sort them however i want, when there are multiple people probing it's necessary to sort by signature names. Also i can no longer copy the details out of the game, it is very handy being able to copy all the signature names and pasting the data into excel or equivalent csv format for quick sharing out of the game (Google Docs for example).
Those are my main complaints, the lack of being able to copy, and sort.
IMO just stick with the old interface but keep the new formations, after all these years i prefer an excel datadump in my face rather than those clunky red/gray bars. |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
80
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 09:13:00 -
[212] - Quote
Initial post has 10 likes so far. CCP, do you see it? Do you understand why?
Don't make this game a complete "WoW" for dummies!
All this looks like "a new inventory". CCP wants to do smth, does it as it sees fit, without asking people, then gets a sh.tstorm but still puts it all in game for us to suffer. |
C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
120
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 09:23:00 -
[213] - Quote
There are holes in the system scanning probe formation.
It should look something like this: http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/130509/formation2_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg
Instead of this: http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/130509/formation1_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg
(ignore my horrible paint skills ) |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 10:09:00 -
[214] - Quote
Wow, so many complaints over making a scanning system look like an actual GAME and not like a spreadsheet. The issue here is that most eve players are in the IT professions and working with SQL and such they are often times more acclimated to reading raw data and are comfortable with that. HOWEVER, the UI deff. needed some shaking up. Im sure in time they can make minor adjustments, but in all honesty you arent getting the old scanning system back so get out of your comfort zone and adapt like most gamers. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
378
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 10:27:00 -
[215] - Quote
But but.. It's a CCP logo ! You can't ask them to remove it !
I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?
BEFORE : 1- Push Alt 2- Grab arrow 3- Move mouse
NOW ON SISI : 1- Push Maj 2- Grab arrow 3- Release Maj 4- Push Alt 5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)
No, really, not good. G££ <= Me |
Sasha Angelis
Airkio Mining Corp Gentlemen's Agreement
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 10:37:00 -
[216] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Wow, so many complaints over making a scanning system look like an actual GAME and not like a spreadsheet. The issue here is that most eve players are in the IT professions and working with SQL and such they are often times more acclimated to reading raw data and are comfortable with that. HOWEVER, the UI deff. needed some shaking up. Im sure in time they can make minor adjustments, but in all honesty you arent getting the old scanning system back so get out of your comfort zone and adapt like most gamers.
I'm pretty sure no one is opposed to make the scanning UI more appealing. The players are more opposed to the new system cause it offers less information and less options for customization for a bit more colors and a fancy new scanning animation (which is a bad trade in my opinion).
I'd really love to see CCP putting some serious work in this new interface before June 4th or if thats not possible in time take the new interface out of Odyssey 1.0 and deliver it with 1.1. |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 10:41:00 -
[217] - Quote
Sorry in advance for my english.
After a few hours probbing i can say: i really DO NOT LIKE the new probbing system. EVE is a game where you should learn every day every aspect of it. Exploring was one.
Now is just dumb, it's a lot easier and with a lack of depth that previously had. You removed many advanced tricks: -leaving probes out in system when jumping in another one. -scan 2 locations at the same time -recognise the type of sig by their scan st (really the bar thing is a lot worse than the percentage). -using dsp to scan even the larges systems and being able to scan with the probe outside directionl scanners range. -making implant useless with the new modules, and maybe making too easy scan a ship with the probe outside his directional.
I do not usually use 8 probes but i can see the point of those complaining of not being able to use them.
I not really know why you are trying to flatten all the game, eve is not supposed to be easy and it shouldn't be, you could have just made the interface simplier while keeping the actual probbing method. Absurdly for explorers this is going to be one of the worst expansions because you are not fixing anything that needed to be fixed and just introduce some useless things.
The hacking minigame is nice in a game like mass effect where they have to increase the lenght. But in eve you do not aim and shoot you just press f1, you do not manually orbit (yeah sometimes yes) or warp to a location you press a key and i do not know why hacking shouldn't be the same way.
What i think exploration needs atm: -The ability to directly launch a chosen number of probes( two options: launch probe. and launch probes->2/3/4/5/6/7/8 -The pre-set probes formations are cool, and would be even better if you can save your own formation for each number of probes out -Fix the escalations, make them more entertaining and useful, they are longer and harder then rated complex and they should have a better reward. And please make them spawn in the same region. -The idea of introduce new WHs with no moons was pretty cool
The system scanner is ok, even if also the actual one is ok
I'm quite hopeless about how ccp will handle those feedback and after all the work they have done to do it i don't think they will go back. And that's sad. THey will answer for a few days and then leave it alone as they did with the ship rebalance. I don't think any real explorer will be happy with the new expansion
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1387
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 10:53:00 -
[218] - Quote
For people complaining about the changes in percentage bonuses going from a single 10% bonus, to 2 5% bonuses:
You know that gives you a higher bonus, right?
They multiply together.
100 * 1.1 = 110 100 *1.05*1.05 = 110.25 Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Anariasis
Boris Johnson's Love Children
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:05:00 -
[219] - Quote
Just realized while being on the test server, the new scanning modules (Scan Rangefinding Array etc.) all need their respective skill trained to Level 1. That's fine for the T1 ones, but for the T2? Why would anyone use the T1 then? Why not reward players that have invested more skill points? The T1 and T2 have same fitting requirements as well. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:08:00 -
[220] - Quote
Altrue wrote: I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?
BEFORE : 1- Push Alt 2- Grab arrow 3- Move mouse
NOW ON SISI : 1- Push Maj 2- Grab arrow 3- Release Maj 4- Push Alt 5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)
No, really, not good.
You can still use Shift-Alt to move probes towards center, but why would you?
Click launch probes Move the single visible probe onto sig Change radius by resizing any probe sphere, probes will automatically move towards center Click Scan
Much much easier now, no more pointless clicking and moving probes by hand. |
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:12:00 -
[221] - Quote
Altrue wrote:But but.. It's a CCP logo ! You can't ask them to remove it ! I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ? BEFORE : 1- Push Alt 2- Grab arrow 3- Move mouse NOW ON SISI : 1- Push Maj 2- Grab arrow 3- Release Maj 4- Push Alt 5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...) No, really, not good.
Actually the way it is now is:
1-Hold shift and click on probe range to slide it in for a tighter range. 2-Relase shift and click 3-Hold alt down and click on a probe directional handle opposite of the center and then move it inward to tighten the probe placement.
Odyssey:
1-Click the edge of any probe's range and reduce or increase it...each of the other probes will change the range and placement while staying in formation and thus do two functions in one. You are changing the range and sliding the probe along its directional axis at the same time which is a bit less time consuming.
Right now you hold shift and alt to move all probes at once. You do not hold shift or alt to move one probe at a time.
Odyssey is the exact opposite, you use shift and alt to manipulate individual probes and dont need shift and alt to manipulate them all at once and thats how it should be.
|
Sanny San
Gothic Pioneers S2N Citizens
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:13:00 -
[222] - Quote
So, i have also played a bit around with the new scanner.
On TQ I do not scan very often. That said i am also not very experienced in scanning. My skills are not very high neither.
On SiSi yesterday i fitted an Anathema with a probe launcher and 7 sisters core probes, nothing else.
Scanning was very easy! No need to press shift, no need to sort probes... As i am someone who has not high scanning skills and not much experience the changes help me a lot.
Although i think that most people complaining are right. It just becomes to easy. And high skills now are almost useless. Whats with the specialists in scanning? And finally give at least the functionality back with sorting the results... as someone said earlier. |
FrAgPiraTe
Apex Overplayed Coalition Nulli Legio
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:17:00 -
[223] - Quote
Mister Vee wrote:Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:
####
- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'
- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything
- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.
- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)
- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?
- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.
- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it
- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.
- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.
This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement...
This +1 from a bomber FC's perspective. Having a rich amount of data is imperative. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
434
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:18:00 -
[224] - Quote
Please, please talk to one of the w-space CSMs (old or new) and work closely with them in implementing the new system. It's quite obvious that the person designing these changes does not do a lot of scanning in game.
1. Preserve the feature that the scan result list can be copy-pasted. Even if it shows only bars in the game, selecting and copying it should give us the readout we currently get, including result strength numbers. Why is this important? Because many of us use chain-mapping sites that accept this input and populate the sig list, so we only have to do one scan and copy-paste the results instead of typing in every sig individually. If you remove this feature, the new system will be worse for us than what we have now, regardless of what other changes you make.
2. Change the hotkeys, for god's sake. As mentioned, alt+shift toggles the language settings on windows systems, so it's an absolute no-no. Also really awkward to use. Why does pressing just Alt not do anything anymore? It's the obvious choice for adjusting the distance between probes. You should keep the current hotkeys as there is no reason to change them really. Alt for adjusting distance between probes, Shift for adjusting probe scan range.
3. Why only 7 probes? You really need to talk to some good scanners if you think that 7 probes is all we need. Yes, most people use 7 or less, but most people suck at scanning. They think they are good scanners because they can find every signature. A good scanner is a FAST scanner. Please talk to Jack Miton and let him explain to you why we need 8 probes, hmkay? If anything, you should change it so we can use 9 probes...
4. Why is the sorting of results gone? Sometimes I want to sort by strength, sometimes by type or sig id. Please bring this back.
To end this on a positive note: I like that many things that required fiddly clicking and multiple key presses now work by just dragging the mouse. Also that brackets do not get in the way anymore. . |
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:20:00 -
[225] - Quote
After testing the new probing system on Sisi I have to admit that it is very newbie friendly and after 10 minutes veterans will not have any problems using it. It is very simplified interface and mechanic though, no sure if it is too simple. Actually the probe information window can be removed as it has no role anymore with the pure left click mouse interface.
I tried the hacking minigame, it's behaviour is very inconsistet. Sometimes you can hack without a module on your ship, sometimes you have to. Also the attributes you have in it doesn't seem to apply hacking skills which would make sense. Better skills should mean higher points in the minigame! It is probably due to the early version of this gameplay idea. It needs more love! Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:35:00 -
[226] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Altrue wrote: I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?
BEFORE : 1- Push Alt 2- Grab arrow 3- Move mouse
NOW ON SISI : 1- Push Maj 2- Grab arrow 3- Release Maj 4- Push Alt 5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)
No, really, not good.
You can still use Shift-Alt to move probes towards center, but why would you? Click launch probes Move the single visible probe onto sig Change radius by resizing any probe sphere, probes will automatically move towards center Click Scan Much much easier now, no more pointless clicking and moving probes by hand.
Sort of. The probes don't automatically move into formation if you resize them from the probe menu. I hope and pray that this is a bug. However, I found that I needed to check the location of the probes after resizing from the map. It looks like the probes aren't actually retaining their relative distance to one another half of the time. This may be a glitch in the way the central arrows are displayed/scaled, but I ended up holding shift to inspect the formation after every resize and tweaking it with alt-shift a lot.
If that's a glitch somehow, well and good, but I don't just scan with my probes in one formation all the time forever. I'll be using the alt-drag less, but I will still want it. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1408
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:36:00 -
[227] - Quote
Why 7? I don't understand this at all.
I have been probing for years and 4 is usually enough for going after single sites, 5 is needed on harder ones, or 5 is used to hold the next sig for scan. For dual scanning 8 is preferred and I won't even get into combat probing.
So scanning has been dumbed down for low experienced probers, but made a PITA for longterm or skilled probers.
E: Allow "clusters" to be player programmed. Allow single probes to be launched Keep DSP for those who don't want to use the scanner. Improving NPE |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:40:00 -
[228] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Honestly guys, I want feedback AFTER you have used the features. Not before! Singularity will be up shortly. 7 probes limit suck, just tested it on sisi.
PLEASE REMOVE THIS LIMITATION ASAP.
seriously, wtf this is just random and arbitrary limitation
make it so we can launch all the loaded probes, or a specific amount we can custom, from 1 to 7 or 10 or whatever, but 7 or nothing is just plain ridiculous |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:44:00 -
[229] - Quote
Ethan Revenant wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Altrue wrote: I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ?
BEFORE : 1- Push Alt 2- Grab arrow 3- Move mouse
NOW ON SISI : 1- Push Maj 2- Grab arrow 3- Release Maj 4- Push Alt 5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...)
No, really, not good.
You can still use Shift-Alt to move probes towards center, but why would you? Click launch probes Move the single visible probe onto sig Change radius by resizing any probe sphere, probes will automatically move towards center Click Scan Much much easier now, no more pointless clicking and moving probes by hand. Sort of. The probes don't automatically move into formation if you resize them from the probe menu. I hope and pray that this is a bug. However, I found that I needed to check the location of the probes after resizing from the map. It looks like the probes aren't actually retaining their relative distance to one another half of the time. This may be a glitch in the way the central arrows are displayed/scaled, but I ended up holding shift to inspect the formation after every resize and tweaking it with alt-shift a lot. If that's a glitch somehow, well and good, but I don't just scan with my probes in one formation all the time forever. I'll be using the alt-drag less, but I will still want it.
Ah yes I see what you mean, I tend to adjust my probes range by clicking in space lol I forget some people do it via the scanner window. Hopefully its just a bug. |
Mario delTorres
Advanced Construction Technology Honey Badger Coalition
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:45:00 -
[230] - Quote
The only reason to skill Astometrics to V is requirment for Jump Bridge Generation now? It's very sad that combat probes no more, but I have another IDEA to make people with Atrometrics V smile.
Just make T2 probe launcher as good as Sisters version and add T2 versions of probes. This changes recompense this skill training and add a little advantage against people they not.
I think a lot was told about new scanning system, but my thinks: - spread formations left empty gaps in space. Few minutes ago i scanned system and found 2 unknown sites with spread formations, and 3 unknown sites with pinpoint formation. Probes should be closer to central one. - add possibility do define default formation that is activated after click in launcher module, - add possibility do fefine default range of probes launched in every formation, - should be possible do define new formations, - should be possible do scan with not only 7 probes, and save it as personal formation, - remember 100% hits, - When i jump into system overlay appears and results are seen few seconds only, time to display should be longer, or at least configured. Additionally results of this system scan should be shown in scanner pannel after opening. - clicking on scan result on the list when "Track camera" option is turned on, should sets camera on this result, - give a little bonus for skille "Encryption methods" skill, for example: "+1 virus coherensy bonus per level Amarr Encryption Methods when hacking Sansha or Blood Raiders data cans" - all new scan modules should be merged into one only with little bonus to all three parameters, and scriptable to focus on one only.
Please give an info when minisites will be playable.
|
|
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:46:00 -
[231] - Quote
Mister Vee wrote:Directy copy/paste of my post in the general Odyssey feedback thread, since it's relevant to this thread:
####
- It's now impossible to resize the columns in probe results. Most people (or at least, I did) minimized the 'Ship ID', 'Ship' and often even 'Ship class'. For combat probing the only worthwhile columns are 'Ship type' and 'Distance'
- Speaking of the distance column, it's entirely gone. I hope this is a bug -- if not, it kills the entire pvp metagame. F.e. bombing will be impossible and tier3 snipers will dominate everything
- It's also not possible to sort results by any column. The usual way to have probe results setup is sorted by distance close>far or far>close.
- The colors are very bright and distracting, it also doesn't line up with any other interface in Eve. Not a big fan of this.. although I do like the way percentage is shown by the length of the colored bar (just tone down the colors a bit)
- The 'warp to' button is a bit silly, hardly anyone will do a personal warp to a result at 0. Most of the times a covops will warp at distance to not get decloaked, or someone would warp squad/wing/fleet. If in most cases a right click is required anyway, why waste so much space on a 'warp to 0' button?
- Looks like 'Ignore result' and 'Ignore other results' are either reversed or just bugged in general. Results definitely aren't being hidden like they should be.
- For the love of christ let us center the camera in the probe map on celestials from the overview again. This was changed a while ago and it sucks. CCP Karkur made some inquiries to this change, but I don't know if it's on the list to put back in the client. Previously a single click on a celestial on the overview (stations, planets, moons, everything) centered the camera on it
- Probe formations are cool and useful. Dragging the entire probe set without holding shift is good too.
- It's almost impossible to tell which probe result has been selected. The color difference is minimal and the bars constantly sliding into the screen are way too distracting.
This interface really needs work before it's actually an improvement...
this ^.
Listen to this Man. Test 1, 2, 3... |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
869
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:48:00 -
[232] - Quote
see bug report 157572 :) We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:53:00 -
[233] - Quote
The lack of a cube-formation is important.
Atm those new features are exclusively focused on getting new players to scan properly like someone who actually trained it. Though you are ignoring the older players, who indeed do want to scan with 8 probes.
So please, if you do that instalaunch, include all three important formation, (5 for rookies, 7 for casuals, and cube/8 for actual scanners). Unlike this is getting fixed, I'll -1 this whole idea as incomplete respectively badly executed. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1408
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:57:00 -
[234] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:The lack of a cube-formation is important.
Atm those new features are exclusively focused on getting new players to scan properly like someone who actually trained it. Though you are ignoring the older players, who indeed do want to scan with 8 probes.
So please, if you do that instalaunch, include all three important formation, (5 for rookies, 7 for casuals, and cube/8 for actual scanners). Unlike this is getting fixed, I'll -1 this whole idea as incomplete respectively badly executed.
Or at least just allow the ability to launch probes individually. Improving NPE |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:57:00 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Probe launchers can now only launch a maximum of seven probes. These probes are now launched all together. One click, launches all.
You are fu*king kidding, right?
Test 1, 2, 3... |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1347
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:58:00 -
[236] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design.
Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use.
No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:01:00 -
[237] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Skill ChangesAstrometrics:
- This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
- Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes.
- Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Also:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
Will the training multiplier of Astrometrics still be x3?
If you are reducing it to 1x don't forget to skill reimburse the difference.
Test 1, 2, 3... |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1408
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:06:00 -
[238] - Quote
He stated earlier they aren't reimbursing SP difference due to multiplier change. Improving NPE |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
512
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:13:00 -
[239] - Quote
CCP Tuxford tomorrow is a public holiday.[:=d wrote: So new game, find when devs are responding while not working, possibly drunk and not using their mains ;)
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find your main.
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Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:13:00 -
[240] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher
Exactly. Deeps are an integral part in advanced scanning. I'm still in shock they're gone.
So far the only thing I like is the ability to move the entire formation with one block, but any decent scanner had no trouble holding shift.
I'm all for making scanning more accessible to newer players, but these changes are removing advanced scanning options.
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:16:00 -
[241] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design. Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use. No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher
Actually no...Deep Space probes are a remnant of an old probing system. In the old system you started with a multispectral probe that only gave you a list of the types of sites present in the system. It didn't pinpoint ant, and wouldnt give you numbers, but it would tell you what types were present with 100% certainty.
Under the current system, deep space probes are basically combat probes with high range. All probes are 100% detection of every signature within range, so DSPs were tasked over to be used for one of two jobs.
A). They find a ship outside the normal planetary masses (the huge range means you need fewer probes out to cover the same area) or as an initial scan.
B). If used as an initial scan, it is to get all the scan IDs in a large system at the same time.
However, Option A was omitted when CCP put a brake on being able to warp to bookmarks of extreme range out of the system. As for option B, DSPs are still used for this purpose. One thing to keep in mind though is that the way they are used NOW with the DSP guide and finding out what types of sites is not part of the probe design...that was just accidental discovery like webbing freighters.
Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.
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Shaya Phnx
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:19:00 -
[242] - Quote
I hope you accept my apologice if this question has been answered before, i didn't read every post here.
How do I show the Anomalies on Sisi in space. currently there are just a few seconds after initilizing the system, when I can see them inspace. If I use my onboard scanner or even probes, they are not shown in space, just in the scanner overview. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
434
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:21:00 -
[243] - Quote
Wow, I just realized that they also changed sig sizes or probe strength. I can scan to 25% what used to be size-10s with the default formation and 8 AU scan range, using a mediocre-skilled alt and none of the new scanning mods. On TQ I'd have to go down to 2 AU probe range to do that. This should speed up sweeping systems a lot. I think I like it . |
Traiori
New Eden Renegades
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:22:00 -
[244] - Quote
Please see this entire thread for my thoughts on the issue: you are removing a lot of the higher-end tactics used in scanning, you are removing a lot of the versatiltiy that more skilled pilots had, you are removing our skillpoints without reimbursing them (!?), you are removing a lot of the speed-increasing techniques that we used to actually bring hisec exploration anywhere near other hisec activities in income.
You are removing a lot of the information that we used to use on a regular basis, and that is necessary for some of the more complex things that we do as players in this game (you've seen FC's and pvp'ers in this thread expressing their concerns, listen to them).
Frankly, I also no longer see the point in having my scanalts subbed. I'm sure that other people feel the same. Why bother having perfect scanning skills, or any particularly good scanning technique? We can just press two buttons and BAZINGA!
I'm also extremely glad that I'm nowhere near wormholes at the minute with these changes.
You say that you like emergent gameplay, yet when we make emergent gameplay with probes, you immediately remove a lot of the features that we were using. As others have concluded, I can only presume that you don't actually have anyone involved in any aspect of actual scanning, only in the lowest end of pve scanning. This isn't making scanning more accessible. It's removing entire areas of gameplay from EVE.
Exploration isn't dead, I'm not that ridiculous to believe that these changes will murder it - though I do think that you'll see a fair number of hisec explorers either leave the game as their income drops below the already low rates it's at currently - but this is a huge blow to it as a career path. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1408
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:22:00 -
[245] - Quote
Shaya Phnx wrote:I hope you accept my apologice if this question has been answered before, i didn't read every post here.
How do I show the Anomalies on Sisi in space. currently there are just a few seconds after initilizing the system, when I can see them inspace. If I use my onboard scanner or even probes, they are not shown in space, just in the scanner overview.
Sensor overlay on?
Improving NPE |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:23:00 -
[246] - Quote
Octoven wrote: Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.
You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
434
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:32:00 -
[247] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Wow, I just realized that they also changed sig sizes or probe strength. I can scan to 25% what used to be size-10s with the default formation and 8 AU scan range, using a mediocre-skilled alt and none of the new scanning mods. On TQ I'd have to go down to 2 AU probe range to do that. This should speed up sweeping systems a lot. I think I like it
I just got a w-space data site (=radar) to >25% by going directly from 8 AU to 2 AU and not even touching the keyboard, just dragging the mouse. Scanning is going to be really easy and fast. . |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:33:00 -
[248] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design. Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use. No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher
Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train. I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic.
Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me.
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:33:00 -
[249] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Octoven wrote: Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.
You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats.
If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:34:00 -
[250] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design. Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use. No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train. I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic. Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me.
Funny how older players tend to be the ones most resistant to change. |
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David Campbell
TIPIAKS
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:35:00 -
[251] - Quote
Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered. I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:36:00 -
[252] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design. Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use. No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train. I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic. Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me. CCP rule N-¦1: if it ain't broken, be sure the next update will break it
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
434
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:38:00 -
[253] - Quote
David Campbell wrote:Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered. I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down. How do you do that? I don't think this is the case. . |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:40:00 -
[254] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:Octoven wrote: Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.
You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats. If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well. learn to probe.
dsp are especially usefull in advanced scanning to filter point blank the sigs, now CCP is just making it easier for anyone, and in the meantime, screw many gamaplays with this (wtf there are no more RANGE in scan tab?)
this probing thingy is just a big rollback, and i'm afraid of what they will do to pos, i forsee a nightmare of bugs around those, i wish i'm wrong, but unfortunately, i'm a player since too long to even hope see it not being screwed up |
Hathrul
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
239
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:41:00 -
[255] - Quote
1. the spread formation is terrible. it leaves holes. the pinpoint formation is better used for a general overview 2. why did the scanbuttons move to the middle of the window? i cant see a reason why, and it just confuses long time scanners. it might have an intricate reason though that id really like to now 3. when resizing probes the scanner overview doesnt show you the size youre adjusting too. this is massively annoying. by knowing how close you are to scanning something down you can by looking at probe size guess what you are scanning down. 4. Why are my probes instantly picked up if i jump? id like to keep them out please? and why can we reconnect to probes (the button is there) if you cant loose them 5. where is the time the probes can stay out? or is it eternally? shame....i was for cutting them by 66%, removing....terrible 6. can i have my deepspace probes back please? theyre awesome as overview probes. if a system is 200 AU its nice to get a quick overview 7. can we get a way to launch a single probe? sometimes thats all you need....... 8. if we can only launch 7 probes at the same time, please make the launchers hold more probes. if you have to reload after every system......it gets old |
Feer Truelight
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:41:00 -
[256] - Quote
"Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half."
That's the (2x/3x/4x...) at the skill?
That awkward moment when I'm salvaging a Minmatar wreck and after 10 minutes the player starts shooting at me.
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Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:42:00 -
[257] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:Octoven wrote: Since no one uses option A anymore and since most system are small enough for combats and cores to cover the system, option B isnt really applicable either. Thus they have lived past their original design intent and its time to say goodbye to them.
You are wrong. They are used to great effect by using them with combats. If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well.
You obviously have never scanned with 2 types of probes. It works amazingly well. The fact that I can set them at 8au and 2au and change them all at once to 4au/1au or 2au/0.5au is huge. When you have systems with 40+ sigs this method is fast. |
David Campbell
TIPIAKS
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:43:00 -
[258] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:David Campbell wrote:Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered. I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down. How do you do that? I don't think this is the case.
With customs filters, I've just tested it, and the remaining signatures are all of the selected types so far (5 tries). |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
273
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:43:00 -
[259] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:So far the only thing I like is the ability to move the entire formation with one block, but any decent scanner had no trouble holding shift.
Tbh, I kinda like the ability to get an automatic formation, because it was a royal pita to set the same damn setup every time I entered another system - it just gets old once you're used to one way of probing.
That said, the compaints list:
1. Shift+Alt is hilarious (not really) if you have several international keyboards active. What, Alt+F4 was taken? :p I see no reason why this couldn't remain Alt.
2. I'd like 8 probes back please and set up my own formations. No need for preset formations.
3. Can't sort by type/ID/whatever?
4. 100% scans should remain 100% and update Scanning Overview. 4a. I'd prefer if info for sig was retained if docking / jumping to a different system. Currently, bookmarks are used to achieve this.
5. Remove automatic probe recovery. If I was stupid enough to leave the probes behind, I should pay the price.
6. Copy-paste scan results are gone? WTB back, please. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:46:00 -
[260] - Quote
Reading all the comments and giving it a try myself i find it quite worrysome that Odyssey is already so close around the corner. It really feels like the new system was designed in a rush by someone who didn't really use any of the advanced probing techniques. It needs a LOT of work and finetuning. Being in game development myself i know this is impossible in such short time. These updates should have been put on sisi 3-4 months in advance and then properly fleshed out with the help of community feedback. Casual Explorers will love the changes but all the rest gets alienated because a) player skill is taken out of the equation b) its dumbed down to a point that some tasks actualy become more of a chore or downright impossible compared to before.
The new system has potential. I like the feel of it. The system scanner is nice to quickly see if its worth to probe the system, launching multiple probes is nice, the handling of the probes themself feels nice and streamlined. But we could have all this while still maintaining advanced probing techniques. This new system could make new and old explorers happy alike. But right now it only gathers to casuals. In Eve Online of all games! |
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Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:50:00 -
[261] - Quote
Altrue wrote:But but.. It's a CCP logo ! You can't ask them to remove it ! I've tried to scan on SISI and I have to say that it's quite awful. Does any of you have figured how to move all the probes close to their center of gravity ? BEFORE : 1- Push Alt 2- Grab arrow 3- Move mouse NOW ON SISI : 1- Push Maj 2- Grab arrow 3- Release Maj 4- Push Alt 5- Move mouse (without being able to see the arrows, so your cursor is currently moving something you can't see...) No, really, not good.
Drag the probe range bubble. Automatically resizes and adjusts relative position. Easy as pie.
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David Campbell
TIPIAKS
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:52:00 -
[262] - Quote
David Campbell wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:David Campbell wrote:Being able to filter signatures by types (data, relics, gas, etc...) even though the percentage to identify them isn't reached yet is a bit overpowered. I can warp into system, launch probes in wide formation and via the filters, I know in a few seconds what kind of sites are in systems and how many of each types. Talk about dumbing things down. How do you do that? I don't think this is the case. With customs filters, I've just tested it, and the remaining signatures are all of the selected types so far (5 tries).
Well, I must have been really lucky, cause I the 6th didn't work, disregard my comment.
|
Shaya Phnx
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:56:00 -
[263] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Shaya Phnx wrote:I hope you accept my apologice if this question has been answered before, i didn't read every post here.
How do I show the Anomalies on Sisi in space. currently there are just a few seconds after initilizing the system, when I can see them inspace. If I use my onboard scanner or even probes, they are not shown in space, just in the scanner overview. Sensor overlay on?
where can i switch this on? |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:57:00 -
[264] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Reading all the comments and giving it a try myself i find it quite worrysome that Odyssey is already so close around the corner. It really feels like the new system was designed in a rush by someone who didn't really use any of the advanced probing techniques. It needs a LOT of work and finetuning. Being in game development myself i know this is impossible in such short time. These updates should have been put on sisi 3-4 months in advance and then properly fleshed out with the help of community feedback. Casual Explorers will love the changes but all the rest gets alienated because a) player skill is taken out of the equation b) its dumbed down to a point that some tasks actualy become more of a chore or downright impossible compared to before.
The new system has potential. I like the feel of it. The system scanner is nice to quickly see if its worth to probe the system, launching multiple probes is nice, the handling of the probes themself feels nice and streamlined. But we could have all this while still maintaining advanced probing techniques. This new system could make new and old explorers happy alike. But right now it only gathers to casuals. In Eve Online of all games! this
in a nutshell, CCP don't bring it on TQ like this allow it more finetuning / feedback.
don't make your uninventory mistake again....(wich is STILL not as effective as the old one, btw....) |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:04:00 -
[265] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:So far the only thing I like is the ability to move the entire formation with one block, but any decent scanner had no trouble holding shift. Tbh, I kinda like the ability to get an automatic formation, because it was a royal pita to set the same damn setup every time I entered another system - it just gets old once you're used to one way of probing.
Yeah, auto formation is nice. I'd love to set my own formation with either multiple probe types or the ability to have different Au probes that maintain their relative Au differences (ie 16/4, 8/2, 4/1) |
Haulie Berry
613
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:08:00 -
[266] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Why is everyone talking about the loss of DSPs as if their removal were merely collateral damage?
DSPs were pretty obviously not intended to be used to circumvent a huge portion of the exploration time sink - that was a function of a flawed mechanical design. Really? Then what were they pretty obviously for? They don't have the signal strength to scan anything down on their own (ie you'd never use 7 in a pattern, so why ever use more than one). And if they were just to show you in one scan all of the sigs but nothing more, they would be largely useless, especially for something that required astrometrics 5 to use. No I would say it is quite the opposite. DSP's were absolutely designed to help speed up an advanced players scanning. One who was willing to train astrometrics to 5 AND use a ship capable of fitting an expanded launcher Exactly this. They (CCP) actually take away people's main advantage if they went through the horrid all V scanning train. I think we can all live with being blobbed with mindless minigames. Those minigames are the worst to come to eve ever since incarna, but that's not the topic. Why is a system, that didn't need a fix, now getting destroyfixed. In Eve, the least noobs care for eyecandy, and the older players actually yearn for iterations, but NOT this pile of unneccessary/unwanted/dumbing-down changes. Nothing is bad with dumbing things down, excuse me, but at the point where it touches the functionality and options I have, leaving me -now- far behind given the 2 months of exclusive scantraining, really annoys me.
Yeah, I'm sure when they redid scanning last time, they sat down at a table and said, "Okay, so... deep space probes. Here's what we'll do with them. We'll make it so the player can sit down with a spreadsheet, and then use these things to immediately tell which sigs are of low value. That sounds like a pretty advanced tactic, right? Right?"
|
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:16:00 -
[267] - Quote
As Haulle said above I'm not so sure that people getting used to dropping a DSP and knowing what all the sigs are before you've actually gone any further in scanning was ever what CCP intended.
If the new system means you can't know instantly what every sig is, but it's a lot quicker to scan individual sigs down - isn't that a positive result? More engagement, less undocumented & unintended features that you're at an instant disadvantage if you don't know. Did the skill ceiling come from knowledge of these undocumented variables - e.g. like signature sizes all being constant - or from actual scanning ability?
The new probing system isn't without its faults and foibles, but it's not the apocalypse.It is worth noting also that there was a lot of "the sky is falling" posts about exploration being dumbed down the last time it was revamped....... |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:19:00 -
[268] - Quote
There are 2 main points going on in this thread regarding deeps. One is the ability to drop a single deep and know what sigs are based on sig strength. The other is using them in a probe setup with combats.
I do think the drop 1 probe get sig strength is a bit gamey and could be addressed without removal of deeps.
My main issue is that the deeps are integral to any advanced probing technique and should not be removed unless there is a suitable replacement for this method. The reason for Astro 5 was 8 probes and deeps. If you wanted to be the best scanner this is what you trained. I didn't even think twice about the skill train because I love scanning and knew to be the best you needed it.
|
B'atou
The forgotten Soldiers
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:24:00 -
[269] - Quote
For the Pinpoint formation it would be nice, if the formation adepts do the range of the probes, because it jumps always back to the original range for the saved formation
------------------------------------------- Every winner needs a looser, only idiots need a leader! |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:29:00 -
[270] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:There are 2 main points going on in this thread regarding deeps. One is the ability to drop a single deep and know what sigs are based on sig strength. The other is using them in a probe setup with combats.
I do think the drop 1 probe get sig strength is a bit gamey and could be addressed without removal of deeps.
My main issue is that the deeps are integral to any advanced probing technique and should not be removed unless there is a suitable replacement for this method. The reason for Astro 5 was 8 probes and deeps. If you wanted to be the best scanner this is what you trained. I didn't even think twice about the skill train because I love scanning and knew to be the best you needed it.
Your second point is what i was looking forward for the most as not yet fully skilled prober. That's what dissapoiunt me the most right now.
I can see why CCP maybe thought the DSP insta filter was bad and wanted it gone. But then why didn't they just randomize the signature strenghts to some degree instead of removing the whole system. It's like amputating a leg to fix an ingrown toe nail. |
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erinomaisenvarma
Karjala Inc. The Polaris Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:30:00 -
[271] - Quote
So in nutshell you are:
1) Removing all the skill from probing 2) Making probing ridiculously easy 3) Boosting probe strengths -> even more faster & easier 100% hits
So instead of getting one good prober for the fleet I can go what ever idiot and probably he doesn't need to have even a proper probe ship and get good results fast.
About all these changes are bad. Probing is too damn easy already. Now you can do it so fast and effortlessly that opponent probably won't see the probes in the scan unless he spams it like maniac. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:37:00 -
[272] - Quote
Durzel wrote:The new probing system isn't without its faults and foibles, but it's not the apocalypse.It is worth noting also that there was a lot of "the sky is falling" posts about exploration being dumbed down the last time it was revamped.......
Completely different change with Apocrypha. It went from a random number generator to requiring skill at setting probes and arranging them. Most scanners find their setup and stick with it, so an automated method of doing this is great. Removing deeps is limiting a probers options. I'm fine if you're a basic prober and want to use the default layout, but if your profession is probing you want options. I'd love even more probe types for specialized situations which would allow for other probe arrangement such as in combat probing or even specific ship type.
Basically I want to see probing become more accessible but once you get into it you have multiple options. Not a one size fits all.
|
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:39:00 -
[273] - Quote
erinomaisenvarma wrote:So in nutshell you are:
1) Removing all the skill from probing 2) Making probing ridiculously easy 3) Boosting probe strengths -> even more faster & easier 100% hits
So instead of getting one good prober for the fleet I can go what ever idiot and probably he doesn't need to have even a proper probe ship and get good results fast.
About all these changes are bad. Probing is too damn easy already. Now you can do it so fast and effortlessly that opponent probably won't see the probes in the scan unless he spams it like maniac. after that, they could as well remove probes for signatures and makes em all 100% would be the same...
also, i tried to fit a thanny, but it is not possible on SISI
cap ships requires XL rigs now, but there are none seeded on market, hence it is not possible to test any capital ship.
please seed market with XL rigs (both T1 & T2) |
Jim Orland
Furyan Federation Fade 2 Black
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:41:00 -
[274] - Quote
Zetaomega333 wrote:So with the new scanning mods being midslots basically Gallente and Caldari as hands down the best scanning ships due to 5 midslots over the minmatar/amarr with 4. Is this going to change?
Yes, I'm sure they will redo all Minmatar and Amarr ships because you don't feel like cross-training racial frigates. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
326
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:43:00 -
[275] - Quote
Can u give back the timer bar when i press analyze pls? LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:46:00 -
[276] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:There are 2 main points going on in this thread regarding deeps. One is the ability to drop a single deep and know what sigs are based on sig strength. The other is using them in a probe setup with combats.
I do think the drop 1 probe get sig strength is a bit gamey and could be addressed without removal of deeps.
My main issue is that the deeps are integral to any advanced probing technique and should not be removed unless there is a suitable replacement for this method. The reason for Astro 5 was 8 probes and deeps. If you wanted to be the best scanner this is what you trained. I didn't even think twice about the skill train because I love scanning and knew to be the best you needed it.
The issue with DSPs is wormholes. I agree, you don't need them for the occasional scan in hisec.
However, around 50%+ of the systems I come through I would have to scan 40+ sigs. Again 40. FOURTY. This takes some time. By scanning a lot and experimenting, I came across the dsp - though I started with 8 sister DSPs, I soon came to the conclusion that one regular one is just enough. It helped me keeping an advantage over casual scanners, as scanning was merely all I did till now in eve.
The announced changes are therefore a raised middlefinger into my face (and surely the face of many other pilots) that used to skill stuff you can now replace by fitting three mods, giving you equal access to probe down all possible sigs without any true specialization. Now, more people scanning is not a problem, but wormholes being empty as **** regarding pvp, at least DSPs did allow us to quickly map the chain (what we practiced LONG time) and allowed us to master the interpretation of that excelsheet. There are a lot of oppurtunities where one jumps a wormhole and after the first scan result, can say how many wormholes, k-holes, worthy sites etc. are in there. This is not an exploit, but IMO the reward for doing this extensively along with some mindwork.
What CCP is doing right here, is nothing but setting people back to where they started - aka taking away from the game for us real scanners. Real scanners because there is a difference between scanning 10 radars or ~700 sigs and ~150 wormholes a month in average. I scan a lot, and I don't like my primary tool being deleted cause devs say 'eh, you don't need that anyway, look we gave you more colours.'
Now factoring in that just slapping three modules in the (atleast for pure probing chars) mostly unused mids on a toon with all III/IV will yield the same advantage as lvl 5 scanning skills is absurd.
|
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:52:00 -
[277] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:He stated earlier they aren't reimbursing SP difference due to multiplier change.
WHAT? Test 1, 2, 3... |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:58:00 -
[278] - Quote
Durzel wrote:...dropping a DSP and knowing what all the sigs are before you've actually gone any further in scanning was ever what CCP intended. You never knew what all the sigs are, what are you talking about?
Durzel wrote:Did the skill ceiling come from knowledge of these undocumented variables - e.g. like signature sizes all being constant - or from actual scanning ability? My edge came from using eight probes,setting them up in elaborate formations quickly, allowing for fast probing even in unbonused ships. DSP was a nice boon but not the deciding factor.
|
Oreamnos Amric
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:01:00 -
[279] - Quote
In an attempt to not just whine about the changes and maybe try some constructive comments, here are my thoughts after giving the scanning interface a fair trial on sisi. Incidentally, is it just me or is there a real lack of things to scan on sisi?
- I like that I can drag all the probes without having to hold shift or alt.
- I dislike that I have to hold shift+alt to expand the probes distance from each other, alt should be enough.
- I was all excited about the ability to save my favourite scanning patterns. To find CCP have decided what my favourite scanning pattern is somewhat sucks. Part of the challenge should be learning and understanding what scanning actually is about.
- Please can I define my preferred probe scan range on launch?
- Please can I define my preferred probe distance from each other on launch?
- I use the scanning method mixing DSP with other probes. I don't really understand why my scanning style has been deemed undesirable and simply removed from the game. This is a personal choice in a game which is meant to be all about finding your own way of doing things.
- I like the ability to launch multiple probes at once but why am I forced to launch seven? If I only wanted to launch five in a single plane scanning pattern that should be supported.
- I would like the timer bar back for the scan. Feedback on how far along a scan is is useful, even if we're only talking six seconds.
I view scanning as one area of EVE where improving your real skills at scanning as well as training in-game makes a difference. This makes it a truly rewarding area of the game. All these changes remove that and make scanning just another "push button receive bacon" mechanism. |
Shadow Pool
Dabin Wax
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:07:00 -
[280] - Quote
Overall really nice changes. Except where you made it so you have to launch 7 probes.
NotifyYou need 7 charges to activate Expanded Probe Launcher II |
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
434
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:08:00 -
[281] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:He stated earlier they aren't reimbursing SP difference due to multiplier change. WHAT?
There is no multiplier change. . |
Feed Syndication
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:09:00 -
[282] - Quote
The two things i miss from the scanner window are the distance and the fact you cant copy paste it anymore. The latter is used to paste in google doscs so one (with other scanners) can quickly coordinate their scanning based on the ID in the first column. Can you at least put the copy paste option back in? |
Moth Eisig
The Trident Brotherhood
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:10:00 -
[283] - Quote
Mario delTorres wrote:The only reason to skill Astometrics to V is requirment for Jump Bridge Generation now? It's very sad that combat probes no more, but I have another IDEA to make people with Atrometrics V smile.
Half the bonuses from the secondary scanning skills are being moved to Astrometrics, so Astrometrics V will be more important than ever.
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:He stated earlier they aren't reimbursing SP difference due to multiplier change. WHAT?
AFAIK The bonus from the skills are changing (being moved to astrometrics), not the training multiplier. No need for reimubursement |
Borgh Brainbasher
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:12:00 -
[284] - Quote
edit: nevermind. you should look at the "launchergroup"attribute of moon probes though. |
Belautis
Millard Innovation Inc The 20 Minuters
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:14:00 -
[285] - Quote
I want to be able to launch less than 7 probes and set my own formation. I always did perfectly well with 5, I don't see what that should change. Also this would mean that if you would loose a probe for whatever reason and you have less than 7, you can't scan at all, which is kinda dumb. |
T Lyran
Broken Wheel Mercantile and Trading Company Illusion of Solitude
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:15:00 -
[286] - Quote
Ok here is what should happen, in my opinion.
Add the ability to use scripts with probe launchers. Scripts have 5 different meta levels, each meta level requires one level of Astrometrics each.
Scripts have the ability to contain within them one custom probe arrangement per meta level. So a level 1 script can have 1 probe arrangement saved into it, while the meta 5 script can have 5 probe arrangements saved.
The probe arrangements are saved by arranging probes in space then right clicking in your probe launcher with the script equipped and saying "save current arrangement to script" with a dialogue box showing the current saved arrangements and letting you type in a name for the new one.
The scripts can be freely traded, thus allowing you to create some custom arrangements then sell them or share with corpmates, etc.
The arrangements themselves are dead simple. If we are stuck with 7 probes, then really the arrangement just has 7 vectors + 7 scalars. The vectors are the relative directions from the launching ship to the default location, and the 7 scalars are the default relative distance along those vectors. So for the normal diamond formation, the 7 vectors would be: +x,-x +y,-y +z,-z 0 (the null vector, or any vector really)
and the 7 scalars would be: 1,1 1,1 1,1 0
If you have different formations for combat probes or whatever you're free to save those instead (as long as you have a high enough level script and astrometrics training).
Now when you launch probes, you can either get the default formation (all vectors 0, all scalars 0) or choose a preset formation from those saved in your script.
This allows play skill levels to matter (# of saved presets), allows player talent to level (fully customizable probe arrangement) and has high ease of use. |
Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:28:00 -
[287] - Quote
Astrometrics:
This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1 Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes. Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Then Astrometric Acquisition, Astrometric Pinpointing and Astrometric Rangefinding will cease to exist?
Should i assume ill have the SP refunded? |
Dheeradj Nurgle
Hoover Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:32:00 -
[288] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Astrometrics:
This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1 Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes. Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Then Astrometric Acquisition, Astrometric Pinpointing and Astrometric Rangefinding will cease to exist?
Should i assume ill have the SP refunded?
How did you even come to that? They will add to Astrometrics |
Haulie Berry
615
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:37:00 -
[289] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Astrometrics:
This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1 Does not alter ability to launch probes, all players can now launch 7 probes. Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Then Astrometric Acquisition, Astrometric Pinpointing and Astrometric Rangefinding will cease to exist?
Should i assume ill have the SP refunded?
...what? I... what? Did you even read that?
Before patch: Astrometrics: Increases number of probes allowed, allows use of DSP @ 5. Rangefinding: +10% scan str per level Pinpointing: -10% deviation per level Acquisition: -10% time per level.
After patch:
Astrometrics: +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level Rangefinding: +5% scan str per level Pinpointing: -5% deviation per level Acquisition: -5% time per level.
This comes out to a very slight buff to probe strength (1.25*1.25 = 1.5625 > 1.5) and a very slight nerf to deviation and scan time.
The skills are not being removed. The skills' training ranks are not being changed. The bonus they provide IS being changed. I would assume you will also need the appropriate skill at 5 to use the T2 versions of the new modules (and, personally, I would be okay with it if they ALL required Astrometrics 5 in addition to the relevant skill). |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
435
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:41:00 -
[290] - Quote
People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan. . |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
971
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:45:00 -
[291] - Quote
Thoughts on the new scanner. The loss of the ability to launch a single probe is missed very much, please put it back in. The loss of DSP is also missed (contrary to my views prior to using the new system) please put it back. I like the group movements by default, but scaling the distance between probes should be just alt or user defined. Please add the scan timer back it was useful. Cannot comment of the new Data Site mini-game, as it did not work for me. Please add 8 probes again. Scanning is way to fast now and I mean way to fast. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:48:00 -
[292] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan.
I actually did try out the new system, and while being delighted that even my combat toon with astro II can probe down hard sigs with 7 probes, I'm sincerely unhappy that everything beyond the most basic scanning is deleted.
Again, it's not just the DSP, but the need for the DSP emerged from a well working logical scanprocess having distinct attributes that you can associate with your empirical/theoretical experience. So what they are doing is not
- old system getting tweaks and is now new system,
but
- old system consisted of basic (rookie) scanning and an advanced part. Scrap the advanced part.
It is like taking the finetuning window out of a racing simulator. You'll have a nice need for speed, but it's not the same. It looks good, but functionality suffers a lot.
Dumbing down is nice, removing essential parts cause devs don't know about the possibilities they created is a very bad step.
edit: again, removing the need for astro V (i.E. specialisation) to have the options of DSPs avaiable is not tweaking, it's called breaking things. Just imagine you would now only need med. autocannons I for your missioning battleship's Tech-2 guns. You'd say wtf for sure. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:50:00 -
[293] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan.
Exactly. The ability to do any advanced probing techniques are gone. Push buttan, get sigs.
Probers used skill to find them before, now any scrub can do it. Why not just have 1 module you fit on your combat ship, press buttan, kill target. Same thing.
|
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:52:00 -
[294] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan. Exactly. The ability to do any advanced probing techniques are gone. Push buttan, get sigs. Probers used skill to find them before, now any scrub can do it. Why not just have 1 module you fit on your combat ship, press buttan, kill target. Same thing.
If CCP would just go one step further, you'd only press a button and get all the results while making coffee. Please, we don't need scanning, just give us the results already instead of presenting us minigames a la pacman. |
TZeer
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:52:00 -
[295] - Quote
Clap.....clap.....clap.....clap
Seriously. All this work, and you still can't fix the 5 sec scan time it take to get a position on ships coming in at range.
How long has it been? 2-3 years now? And still you have your heads up your ...... when it comes to long range gameplay.
What's funny is that every Caldari BS you are working on has a bonus to fight at range. Scorpion, long range ecm, Raven, 200km+ cruisemissiles, Rokh, 200km Rail guns.
Apoc Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: +7.5% to Large Energy Turret optimal range +7.5% Large Energy Turret tracking speed (replaced large energy turret cap use)
And now, with all the work you are putting into probing, you just ignore the possibility to actually make those bonuses count.
Let's take the Raven for example, the slowest locking race in the game, with the weapon system that takes the longest time to reach target....
And it takes 5 sec to scan him down....
As I stated somewhere else, I was hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.... |
Dheeradj Nurgle
Hoover Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:03:00 -
[296] - Quote
Right, as it stands now, this is a huge buff to PvE scanning, but a huge nerf to PvP scanning.
The DSP was made rendundant by the Sensor Overlay, kinda neutral on this change. It saves you a few seconds I guess.
Scanning PvE sites became a lot easier, to the point where you drop Probes, and just reposition/resize the entire group. Sites are scanned down really fast.(Scanned down sites seem to drop me in the middle of the sun for some reason :psyduck:)
For PvP, some of these changes are.... annoying to say at least. Being unable to sort results by distance is a huge blow to Bomber Wings, and other Combat Probers. I guess sniping ships will benefit greatly from this. The table we have on TQ might not look pretty, but it's functional. The one on SiSi, not so much.
The lack of the 8th probe is a blow, but we can live with that. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:05:00 -
[297] - Quote
"Not easier, but more accessible. We are not trying to reduce the art of scanning down to a simple click, we are aiming to make scanning more accessible to those who want to use it, but still requires you to master the art."
The pre-set formations are good. The ability to launch multiple probes at once is good, though that should be a toggle. These are both examples of tedium. The negative aspect of this is that unless we fit into a specific pattern that you pre-determine, we are left out in the cold. That 8th probe was a reward for training Astrometrics to 5 and offered advantages to those who went through that effort beyond the mundane additional 5% improvement.
Astrometrics 5 should still reward the 8th probe. There should be a toggle for launching 7 or 8 probes, defaulted to 7 probes, which remembers your last choice.
While I will begrudgingly accept that automatically finding a new sig is good, it should be a toggle mode in the scanner, and require probes to be deployed: when you no longer wish to "pinpoint" sigs, you can switch to a Monitor mode that will scan the system for as long as you leave your probes out. Repeatedly pushing the scan button is an example of tedium, but just giving away the information for free is a step too far in the "accessibility" direction. You should have to set up for it and have a ship capable of using the information.
This change also pushes the game in the direction of more safety. When your own economist has been saying that more things need to explode, and the market is saying the same thing, this kind of feature is moving in the wrong direction. At least requiring a ship with probe launcher to automate the scans will differentiate between those who prepare and those who don't.
"The scan results are now displayed through a progress bar, instead of a table."
Major source of contention. This combines with the removal of Deep Space Probes, though from the way you guys approached the subject, you don't like how players have learned to use "real life" skills to determine what is what.
The ability to use real world people skills to differentiate yourself from someone else in this game used to be a major defining feature of EVE, and is something I would tell others when proselytizing EVE to them. "In most games, it doesn't matter how good of a player you are, everything is dependent on in-game skills. But EVE is different. In EVE, you can have the same in-game skills but still be leaps and bounds ahead of others if you have good personal skills and abilities." I fear that in the name of accessibility to new players you are beginning to destroy this defining characteristic of EVE.
"Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock"
This is both good and bad, and it would be nice to have a toggle for this: "Autorecall Probes [YES/no]". There are operational and strategic reasons one might want to leave probes out in system.
"You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish."
If we must launch 7 probes, and must have 7 probes in the launcher, why require probe ammo at all? Fold the probes into the launcher itself, and script it for Core vs Combat scans. If you're simplifying, go ahead and take away the complexity of Faction probes in non-Faction launchers.
"Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half."
I'm not an advocate for reimbursing skills that are still useful, but please understand that the change to Astrometrics Rangefinding is a major kick in the nuts for anyone who trained level 5.
"Celestial brackets will also no longer get in the way of trying to use the positioning arrows or the probe spheres." "Double clicking a probe in the list will center the camera over the probe."
Awesome news. I don't know if this is a change from current, as I've never tried to center based on anything in the scan window, but the change to double-clicking to center on a target in space was frustrating for a while. The ability to do this from the scan window is awesome.
Along these lines, if you continue with the "everyone gets seven probes" concept, could you auto-rename the center probe to "Center"? Then if we want to center the window on the center probe, we know which one to click without annoyance. It's not hiding anything or preventing us from doing anything by not doing this, it's just tedious and annoying to identify each time.
Alternatively, allow us to rename a probe with a name that is saved as part of the custom formation. We can then anchor and center on that probe position each time. This will cover the case of using 8 probes as well.
"POS anchoring positioning arrows are now fixed size while zooming in/out with the camera"
Currently when anchoring POS modules, you absolutely must right-click on the positioning arrows to get the right-click menu; if you click the positioning box instead by accident, you get the regular in-space right-click manu. Could you guys look at making it possible to right-click the entire box to get the menu (yes, you could still use the Manage window)?
And can you make it possible to center the camera on the positioning box? This particular change might even make the quoted change redundant.
|
Longdrinks
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:06:00 -
[298] - Quote
theres some kind of gay green light that comes on after i undock of jump a gate. How do i turn this off? |
Lord Xyon
Old Timers Guild Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:06:00 -
[299] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan.
People saying DPS aren't needed anymore never used them to their potential.
From the viewpoint of a hunter.
Open wormhole into new system. Hit Dscan, don't see anything. Your not safe. Drop single DSP, cloak back up immediately. Move DSP up over the sun out of Dscan range. Make max range, hit scan. If they don't have a DSP out, they don't know your there. You see ships now. Warp around using Dscan to get the general area they are in and making sure not at a POS. You can get them tracked down within 1-2 au. Warp off Dscan range. drop combat probes, and arrange in a suitable pattern. Position over the ships general area. Hit scan once, get a hit pull probes back. Hope they didn't see probes on dscan. Warp to ship at zero uncloaking in warp to prevent targeting delay. Land blow up ships, loot warp off.
From the viewpoint of the prey.
Keep one single DSP out in the system, over the sun again out of dscan range, scanning constantly along with dscan. See a wormhole open into you, get everyone to safety, or set up a trap. They don't know you seen them come in especially if they came in off dscan range.
Another thought though on why does the probe launcher still hold 8 probes. Perhaps make probe charges. Like say a charge holds 7 probes, or a charge holds 4 probes, or a charge allows just 1 probe. You can then launch a charge. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
435
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:18:00 -
[300] - Quote
You are right, I forgot about pvp scanning. I use DSPs like that myself sometimes.
In any case, there is simply no reason to remove them. It's not like they use server resources or anything. . |
|
Rhavas
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:23:00 -
[301] - Quote
Anariasis wrote:My little list: - Launching 7 probes at once is fine. But only if you want to. I would like the option of launching 1 or 7 (or why not 8?) - Give us back our Deep Space Probes! They are great! They cut down the time to scan for WH exits by A LOT. Not by the range only, but by the signature strength. As a game designer you should know that, but to clarify: http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html?str=12.3&f=5&sec=3- Please stop making us all equally good/bad at this game. Currently you need to know how to use a DSP, make a good probing setup, launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy etc.. After Odyssey we all just hit a button and then it's only skillpoints. Bah! - The spread probe formation is not overlapping, which is stupid. No one with an idea what he's doing is scanning like that. Just make them be overlapping right when you launch them. - Alt+Shift to move probes together/further apart was not easy to discover. Also Alt+Shift happens to CHANGE KEYBOARD LAYOUT FROM GERMAN TO ENGLISH! HOLY ****, THAT'S ANNOYING! (Win8 64bit UK if that helps) - If you set the screen to keep showing the sigs in space, the scanner continues to swirl around you as well - that drives you mad in about 2 minutes. - Why do probes manage to instantly return when you leave system but take time when you recall them? That's just broken game mechanics. Also, if you happen to forget your probes and notice 10 jumps out etc., then you made a mistake and deserve to have lost them. This is EVE, not WoW. - Sometimes it's nice to leave your probes behind, for example: you find a high/low/0.0-exit of your WH, jump in, have a look where it is, jump back , reconnect and continue scanning. Great list, +1 to all items. Author of [url]http://interstellarprivateer.wordpress.com/[/url] |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:26:00 -
[302] - Quote
I want to give you my first impression before reading the rest of this thread. I only had a short amount of time to look at the test server so there may be many details that I have missed.
Initial general impressions 1) Impression after 30 seconds: Gack! This is confusing and horrible. 2) Where did that colored thing go? Having the colored site locators disappear may make sense from a design prospective, but it looked like some random thing disappearing from my screen. 3) Everything else looks bland. The planets and stellar features are distinctly nondescript in comparison to the brightly colored sites.
Attempts at using 4) I want to try scanning down that orange site. Where is it? When I go to the map I do not see the sites that I see from the system scanner. The 100% sites are not there. The sites to scan do not have an approximate location, even though you gave that to me in the ship view. Please provide an approximate location for those things so that I can orient myself when switching between the two views. The information can be very inexact since I know that I need to scan it down. 5) I am losing the sites that I did scan down? This is a cruel joke. I should have those sites identified in both the map and ship view as green with 100%. 6) I must have seven probes? Why didn't you sell me a seven in one probe, or why not let me launch what I have? You know sometimes I just want to launch one probe to see what is around. The seven probe thing neither makes sense, nor is functional. 7) Warp to, but not align? I should be able to align to the sites as well as warp to them. I can align to nearly everything else in my ship's view. 8) Have I found everything? I missed one site because of it's orientation with respect to my ship. I want a list, but I have read that you don't. At the very least I need to be able to go to the system map and see all of the sites at once. That might be a replacement for the list. 9) Which direction is that? Orienting in space and making certain you are viewing all of the space is a special mental peculiarity like color blindness. It is especially difficult in a computer game because you do not have a kinesthetic sense or sense of balance. The system should have multiple methods of identifying the locations so that they are accessible to more people. You should also consider the needs of the blind community. Again a list would be good, the map should be populated, and you may be able to think of other options. |
|
CCP Paradox
817
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:29:00 -
[303] - Quote
Just wanted to chime in, it's still a public holiday here in Iceland. I'm still compiling all of your feedback though, and will go over it with the team tomorrow. We will then start replying to a few of the points here.
Big thanks for the feedback, I know you guys are passionate about it and so are we. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:31:00 -
[304] - Quote
Lord Xyon wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan. People saying DPS aren't needed anymore never used them to their potential. From the viewpoint of a hunter. Open wormhole into new system. Hit Dscan, don't see anything. Your not safe. Drop single DSP, cloak back up immediately. Move DSP up over the sun out of Dscan range. Make max range, hit scan. If they don't have a DSP out, they don't know your there. You see ships now. Warp around using Dscan to get the general area they are in and making sure not at a POS. You can get them tracked down within 1-2 au. Warp off Dscan range. drop combat probes, and arrange in a suitable pattern. Position over the ships general area. Hit scan once, get a hit pull probes back. Hope they didn't see probes on dscan. Warp to ship at zero uncloaking in warp to prevent targeting delay. Land blow up ships, loot warp off. From the viewpoint of the prey. Keep one single DSP out in the system, over the sun again out of dscan range, scanning constantly along with dscan. See a wormhole open into you, get everyone to safety, or set up a trap. They don't know you seen them come in especially if they came in off dscan range. Another thought though on why does the probe launcher still hold 8 probes. Perhaps make probe charges. Like say a charge holds 7 probes, or a charge holds 4 probes, or a charge allows just 1 probe. You can then launch a charge.
In your hunter case, the dsp is completely irrelevant and exposes you for a longer period of time. Just warp around and dscan. If you want to see if anyone is hidden somewhere, drop combats, set to max range, move them above the ecliptic. Takes the same amount of time.
In the prey case, again, dsp is unneeded. Just use a group of combats.
The only thing it gave you was relative signal strength, but you can get that now by hovering over the signal in the overlay. You could even be really sneaky and triangulate an estimated location to get a good guess on a presumed wormhole in one scan like you can with finding ships now.
I do like the probe charge idea, and wonder why that wasn't done to begin with.
|
SilentMajority
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:32:00 -
[305] - Quote
Its painfully obvious that you didn't take any input from experienced probers. Anyone who has ever run a bomber wing or probed in combat would have pointed out multiple flaws within a few minutes. Maybe you did take input but ignored it or decided to go in a different direction. Who knows and since you've decided to do a major release the night before a holiday AND THEN THE WEEKEND so we won't find out for days.
1. 8 Probes that can be moved to cover two locations. Was this a planned nerf?
2. Inability to see range. Did combat probing even make it into the design plan? Are you trying to make that stupid "Eve is Real" video a mandatory thing for fleets that want to get in range?
3. Seven probe minimum. I mean, it would be really nice to not announce my presence to everything in system. The cloak on my scanning ships is really just for decoration and isn't meant to promote stealth.
For the people bad at maths: No, you don't need SP reimbursement.
I really like that you guys are trying to improve but it feels like you took apart the car and forgot half the parts when you put it back together. I don't understand how this has gotten through QA and pre-sisi testing without someone who actually probes raising objections. |
TZeer
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:33:00 -
[306] - Quote
Would be nice to know if we have to wait another 3 years for the next probing change. Or if you will actually fix the instant probing of ships. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:34:00 -
[307] - Quote
After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
Test 1, 2, 3... |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:35:00 -
[308] - Quote
Rhavas wrote:Anariasis wrote:My little list: - Launching 7 probes at once is fine. But only if you want to. I would like the option of launching 1 or 7 (or why not 8?) - Give us back our Deep Space Probes! They are great! They cut down the time to scan for WH exits by A LOT. Not by the range only, but by the signature strength. As a game designer you should know that, but to clarify: http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html?str=12.3&f=5&sec=3- Please stop making us all equally good/bad at this game. Currently you need to know how to use a DSP, make a good probing setup, launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy etc.. After Odyssey we all just hit a button and then it's only skillpoints. Bah! - The spread probe formation is not overlapping, which is stupid. No one with an idea what he's doing is scanning like that. Just make them be overlapping right when you launch them. - Alt+Shift to move probes together/further apart was not easy to discover. Also Alt+Shift happens to CHANGE KEYBOARD LAYOUT FROM GERMAN TO ENGLISH! HOLY ****, THAT'S ANNOYING! (Win8 64bit UK if that helps) - If you set the screen to keep showing the sigs in space, the scanner continues to swirl around you as well - that drives you mad in about 2 minutes. - Why do probes manage to instantly return when you leave system but take time when you recall them? That's just broken game mechanics. Also, if you happen to forget your probes and notice 10 jumps out etc., then you made a mistake and deserve to have lost them. This is EVE, not WoW. - Sometimes it's nice to leave your probes behind, for example: you find a high/low/0.0-exit of your WH, jump in, have a look where it is, jump back , reconnect and continue scanning. Great list, +1 to all items.
+1 expacially for - Please stop making us all equally good/bad at this game. Currently you need to know how to use a DSP, make a good probing setup, launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy etc.. After Odyssey we all just hit a button and then it's only skillpoints. Bah! |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:35:00 -
[309] - Quote
Something else I would love is the ability to change the sig result dots on the solar system map. Hard for my blind eyes to spot green or yellow triangles. I'd love larger or more visible representation. I loved it when they were yellow or green dots vs the current implementation. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:46:00 -
[310] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote: Currently you need to know how to use a DSP,
Reading strength from a spreadsheet is now a special skill?
Quote: make a good probing setup,
Reading a guide on probing is now a special skill?
Quote: launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy
Nothing changed?
Scanning wasn't too hard before, more of a boring work. Now it will be fun. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
|
Lord Xyon
Old Timers Guild Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:48:00 -
[311] - Quote
Another thought since people are just testing this.
Have several people there at CCP sit there and watch the scanner animation. Not for a few minutes but for a few hours, maybe one bathroom break that's it. Listen to the sounds.
Seriously. Sometimes when doing fleet operations and your the dedicated scanner, your going to be looking at this for hours and watching it. Your going to have your headphone on listening to fleet comms. As other people said give us a way to turn this off.
Many of us worm hole dwellers know this annoyance well. Anyone that has sit next to a wormhole as it's massed is reduced slowly has heard the angry huffing and puffing sounds and the relief when they finally end. The thing is you can't shut off just the wormhole huffing and puffing and not hear people come and go. You have to sit there and suffer.
So when everyone gets back from holiday, find the most hung over people that made it into the office, fire up Sisi, fire up that scanner and force them to watch it until they are dizzy and puke and can't take it anymore.
So then here is another suggestion. As previously mentioned, allow us to turn this animation off. I know that scroll bars are bad but I would rather watch the occasional small scroll bar than my entire screen flashing.
Give us a sound when a new signature is found maybe. Something to grab our attention. Currently there are 2 different sounds on TQ. One for nothing new found, kind of like a little "dink" sound. Then one when a new signature is found kind of like a "ta da da" Sounds may be on Sisi and I am just not recognizing them for what they are yet.
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
326
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:52:00 -
[312] - Quote
moving probes around when not in those 2 formations is bugged now and the modifier keys that used to control grouped sizes distances from convergence points etc... i know have been sidelined so that it works without modifier keys but in the situation where you're NOT using the 7-probe overlapping pattern its breaks and you cannot control the probes size or distance from each other in a group AT ALL.
http://i.imgur.com/FDrTLRl.png?1
also as shown in the picture above the movement arrows for the group are faaaar away from the pack fo probes, so thats another thing to sort out.
in simplifying it, so far it seems you've made it idiot proof for novices whilst essentially putting us more competent probers out to the back of the farm ready to be shot in the head. its extremely hard to use probes in an non 7-probe formation.
*slow hand claps*
And as you have heard countless times on this thread, many of the better probers in the game use the 2 groups of 4 probes in a pyramid formation.
if anything allow us to group probes and be able to apply things to that group in order to manage them (ie turning off and on / applying formations / recovering etc...) |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
687
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:53:00 -
[313] - Quote
Aesthetics/visuals: 8/10 (good)
Functionality: 4/10 (poor)
Sometimes i wonder if the developers even play this game.
Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:03:00 -
[314] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Junko Sideswipe wrote:Please do not take ship distances out of the probing window, it is absolutely necessary for fleet PVP to determine which ship you are warping your fleet to when you get a 100% probe scan off. If you take out the distance column you're basically telling us to play russian roulette with our fleets. Yes this breaks 50% of pizza's gameplay (bombing). All the other whining by wormhole residents is glorious. RIP carebears.
Sure, it's absolutely necessary for bombing to be successful; however this affects any FC that uses probes in an engagement, which is fairly common. This is a huge nerf and complete lack of understanding the complexities of fleet vs fleet combat. Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:07:00 -
[315] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them. I've been pointing out the flaws in this plan as soon as I heard the details at fanfest. Granted that was speculation, but if you had spoken to the CSM members such as Two Step before hand then you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble later on. This is bad work CCP simply throwing this one on us without even discussing it before hand.
Also I was told by CCP on the GD thread that launching 8 probes would still be possible?? This sounds like a right mess to be honest. |
Skawl
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:11:00 -
[316] - Quote
I only had a quick play last night so I'll probably post some more feedback later but the one thing that really frustrated me was re-positioning probes.
While I love that I only need to worry about one representation for my probe group (seriously, can't thank you enough for that one), the alt key shouldn't require me to hold shift as well in order to adjust relative position. Just make holding alt pop all the probes up and behave as it does in TQ atm without the shift modifier too please!
With the map open it wont give us enough feedback about the scan results. Hovering over the blips we get in the map view is unreliable (hard to hover the right object in a cluster without zooming, sometimes doesn't display tool tip at all) and, if I remember correctly, doesn't show information about the sig ID making co-ordination with other probers difficult without constantly switching in and out of map view to hover over the sig in space view.
Also, the list view is really useful for heavy use probers (i.e. living in a WH) as it allows copy + paste out to a 3rd party tool to share info among corp members. Removing this ability won't stop people sharing scan results but would make it even more of a PITA than it already is.
I've not had a chance to try combat probing with the new system yet but I did notice that launching probes seems to just dump them out at the star. Same if I change formation. Please fix it so they drop at your location - I don't want my targets to know I have probes out until the last possible moment! (is this just using or changing to spread? Will test further tonight)
I do like that 7 probes are dropped at once although it would be nice to have the option to use less. It's easier to miss a couple on dscan, particularly if your targets also have probes out.
Also, I have, after a long period of being in a WH (and admittedly rather careless) ended up with only 6 probes left (it's perfectly possible to recall and not get all back if you're close to the timer and I'd already lost a couple of sets of spares). Will be frustrating to know that it's most than possible to probe an exit with 6 probes but the game won't let me launch them. May as well just sell them as a single item if they can only be launched as a set.
Being able to drop probes straight into pinpoint formation is brilliant.
Overall this feels OK for casual PvE probers atm but needs more work for power users in WHs and combat probing. |
Kara Kardan
The Red Circle Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:11:00 -
[317] - Quote
Pretty sure its been mentioned already but still, my impressions so far:
I like the simplicity of the scanning controls, this is a good improvement. I can scan all stuff with few clicks, no more constant holding button to resize/move.
Sometimes the probes get deselected in the scanner window and the cross/arrow/cube disappears, this is annoying. Same for results, i want all the results selected by default, as before, not the strongest one. If i want to filter i will do with ignore and preselect filters. It even deselects the results when i select them all, then scan again.
I miss the timers for everything, they are important for combats scanning, seeing the probes move in map, seeing the scan time go down. Sometimes i dont have a clue if i still scan or not then, not good.
Copy and paste of results is needed as was before, also important for wh and combat scanning. This is very important for us and essential to make a map, or get fleet comps. We need this in wh space, since we need to make maps.
Also the distance of the results is missing in the scanning window, again this is important for orientation and tactics it needs to be there.
For me its hard now to see the scan probe size in space, you only ever get to see it in the scanner after pressing scan when you resize in space, before i instantly knew what size my probes had in space. Again, thats important for us.
I dont know what to think of the new scanning modules yet really. Passive mid slot mods are quite odd tbh. Also please seed them. Why make us jump thru unnecessary hoops to get them when we already test for free. |
Haulie Berry
615
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:13:00 -
[318] - Quote
Skawl wrote:I've not had a chance to try combat probing with the new system yet but I did notice that launching probes seems to just dump them out at the star. Same if I change formation. Please fix it so they drop at your location - I don't want my targets to know I have probes out until the last possible moment! (is this just using or changing to spread? Will test further tonight)
The physical probes actually dump at your location - it's only the positioning object that starts at the star. |
Kara Kardan
The Red Circle Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:16:00 -
[319] - Quote
Skawl wrote: I've not had a chance to try combat probing with the new system yet but I did notice that launching probes seems to just dump them out at the star. Same if I change formation. Please fix it so they drop at your location - I don't want my targets to know I have probes out until the last possible moment! (is this just using or changing to spread? Will test further tonight)
probes stay where you launch them until you press scan, i just checked, so you can warp outside planet, launch formation then rearrange them where needed, press scan and the will go where needed. |
Skawl
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:20:00 -
[320] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Skawl wrote:I've not had a chance to try combat probing with the new system yet but I did notice that launching probes seems to just dump them out at the star. Same if I change formation. Please fix it so they drop at your location - I don't want my targets to know I have probes out until the last possible moment! (is this just using or changing to spread? Will test further tonight) The physical probes actually dump at your location - it's only the positioning object that starts at the star.
Good to know, thanks. |
|
Nia Frisby
42 LVL's of Infinity SQUEE.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:24:00 -
[321] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
why is there no skill refund for this? i'm losing a LOT of SP that I could have invested elsewhere, you're basically telling me i wasted my last month's training for absolutely nothing
feels like im being cheated pretty hard here
edit: i am a pretty new player who invested almost all my sp into scanning since i heard about the awesome stuff in odyssey, this basically makes it so i'm losing a couple of million skill points for no good reason. i didnt think you guys ever removed SP from players without compensating |
Haulie Berry
616
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:27:00 -
[322] - Quote
Nia Frisby wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
why is there no skill refund for this? i'm losing a LOT of SP that I could have invested elsewhere, you're basically telling me i wasted my last month's training for absolutely nothing feels like im being cheated pretty hard here
No, you are not losing any SP. |
Nia Frisby
42 LVL's of Infinity SQUEE.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:28:00 -
[323] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Nia Frisby wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
why is there no skill refund for this? i'm losing a LOT of SP that I could have invested elsewhere, you're basically telling me i wasted my last month's training for absolutely nothing feels like im being cheated pretty hard here No, you are not losing any SP.
so the training time will remain the same? why did he say reduced by half |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:30:00 -
[324] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Nia Frisby wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
why is there no skill refund for this? i'm losing a LOT of SP that I could have invested elsewhere, you're basically telling me i wasted my last month's training for absolutely nothing feels like im being cheated pretty hard here No, you are not losing any SP.
Yeah he really is. Since Astro 5 isn't needed for 8 probes or deeps and scanning is ridiculously easy now why train Astro 5?
|
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:31:00 -
[325] - Quote
Nia Frisby wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Nia Frisby wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
why is there no skill refund for this? i'm losing a LOT of SP that I could have invested elsewhere, you're basically telling me i wasted my last month's training for absolutely nothing feels like im being cheated pretty hard here No, you are not losing any SP. so the training time will remain the same? why did he say reduced by half
he was referring to the 10% bonus that will be 5% in the future -> half Test 1, 2, 3... |
Kara Kardan
The Red Circle Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:32:00 -
[326] - Quote
Suggestion; double click on list in scanner window focuses on site/ship whatever in map. |
Nia Frisby
42 LVL's of Infinity SQUEE.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:32:00 -
[327] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Nia Frisby wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Nia Frisby wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
why is there no skill refund for this? i'm losing a LOT of SP that I could have invested elsewhere, you're basically telling me i wasted my last month's training for absolutely nothing feels like im being cheated pretty hard here No, you are not losing any SP. so the training time will remain the same? why did he say reduced by half he was referring to the 10% bonus that will be 5% in the future -> half
okay thats better i guess, at least im not losing SP. still feel a bit cheated but whatever it's my own fault for specializing in an area that interested me |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
435
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:32:00 -
[328] - Quote
I think there is more consideration behind the changes than many here realize.
CCP decided that scanning should become easier and faster in general. It's legitimate to disagree with this goal, but that is what they want. I for my part support this goal because I believe it can bring more players into w-space who are now put off because they don't like scanning. It may also lead to more connections and thus more activity in w-space because people will open more wormholes in the same amount of time spent on scanning.
Scanning has become faster and easier in general. But it is wrong or at least premature to say that personal skill has become irrelevant. There will probably still be ways to get an edge compared to a bad scanner. That everyone will be faster than now does not mean that everyone will be equally fast.
The limit of 7 probes may be justified because with 8, probing would have become even faster and easier. It makes little sense to complain that scanning is now too easy and then demand to get more probes. Keep in mind that with the changed skills, everyone would be able to launch 8 probes, not only those with good skills.
After several hours of testing, I am quite positive towards this change GÇô if some issues are resolved before release.
But, the removal of DSPs is at least unnecessary. They should remain in game. . |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:43:00 -
[329] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Reading strength from a spreadsheet is now a special skill?
Is something that you could do before that now you can't do now, noone said it was difficult( even if half of the people i know didn't knew that) but added another option to probbing.
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: Reading a guide on probing is now a special skill?
Doing a diamond formation? it's easy.Probbing 2 location at the same time? a bit harder. Probbing with 8 probes the type of the sig in one scan? A bit harder Probbing a ship without letting him show the probes on his d-scan... etc etc. Again noone said before it was too hard it was depth and with options. Now is just flat and all the same
Quote: launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy Nothing changed?
It changed, you can't always cover a system with a single core/combat probe without having it at the sun. Dsp could do that.
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:43:00 -
[330] - Quote
I'm all for making it easier. They've just removed any additional complexity for those doing probing as a profession. Once you know how to click buttan and move probes is one thing. Having the ability to use multiple probe groups, distance info, multiple probe types, leaving probes in system, etc is another. |
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Dheeradj Nurgle
Hoover Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:51:00 -
[331] - Quote
Nia Frisby wrote: okay thats better i guess, at least im not losing SP. still feel a bit cheated but whatever it's my own fault for specializing in an area that interested me
You do know that all skills combined, it stacks higher than it is right now.... |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
326
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:54:00 -
[332] - Quote
I just found "Regional Serpentis Data Processing Center" in Jovainnon solar system. I have with my self both the Relic Analyzer I and the Data Analyzer I. Neither of those 2 worked on any of the objects in the site mentioned above. So how is this exploration done. Dont tell me i need to have all skills on 5 for T2 modules so i can do exploration in lowsec.
LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:55:00 -
[333] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:I just found "Regional Serpentis Data Processing Center" in Jovainnon solar system. I have with my self both the Relic Analyzer I and the Data Analyzer I. Neither of those 2 worked on any of the objects in the site mentioned above. So how is this exploration done. Dont tell me i need to have all skills on 5 for T2 modules so i can do exploration in lowsec.
Currently it seems to be not implemented, you can just right-click and open cargo without any module at all. Right-click and just open (not open cargo) will start a minigame which doesn't seem to work right now as well. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
326
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:59:00 -
[334] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:I just found "Regional Serpentis Data Processing Center" in Jovainnon solar system. I have with my self both the Relic Analyzer I and the Data Analyzer I. Neither of those 2 worked on any of the objects in the site mentioned above. So how is this exploration done. Dont tell me i need to have all skills on 5 for T2 modules so i can do exploration in lowsec.
Currently it seems to be not implemented, you can just right-click and open cargo without any module at all. Right-click and just open (not open cargo) will start a minigame which doesn't seem to work right now as well.
Ohh tnx...i was banging my head on the monitor trying to figure it out :P LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
|
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:01:00 -
[335] - Quote
Some observations about the new probe system.
1. Bring back DSP's. They are invaluable in wormhole space for gathering quick intel upon entering an adjacent hole. Alternatively increase combat probes scan radius so that 7 probes can instantly scan an entire system. Maybe tie the scan radius to the Astrometrics skill level, that way I won't feel so robbed of the time I took to train it to level V.
2. Probes should not return to your ship when you change systems. If you leave them behind that's your own fault. CCP should not be babysitting all of our activities. There are tactical reasons why leaving probes behind in a wormhole system is useful.
3. Do probes no longer have a timer? I don't see a countdown anymore.
4. If you can't use a probe launcher without it having 7 probes installed then why have individual probes at all. Especially if they can't be destroyed by timing out or by being targeted and shot.
Otherwise I think the new system is reasonable well implemented. It should speed up scanning sites and wormholes by taking out the tedious parts. Not convinced that is helpful for combat scanning however as there are many ways in which people have got used to using probes for that and the new system appears to constrict what you can do too much.
|
hfo df
Ramm's RDI Tactical Narcotics Team
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:13:00 -
[336] - Quote
Can you make the probe output copy pastable again? Cheers! |
Fearless Leader2
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:15:00 -
[337] - Quote
I have checked and played the SISI setup and have questions.
1. when probes are out I used to be able to highlight and keep highlighted several probes in the on board scanner window and then adjust all the highlighted probes the same as far as AU range setting or recall are concerned for example. now I have to highlight them each and every time to make an adjustment. how do I keep the selected ones high lighted now ?
2. how do i get all the probes to show at the same time without haveing to hold down the return key. makes it diffucult to adjust AU range as needed on different probes?
3. how do I sort the probes in the window according to au range setting. I often have the center probe of 7 at 64 au and the others at whatever I need to get the sigs. need to be able to sort the probes for easier adjustment.
4, how do I launch a 8th probe ? part of several patterns I like to use.
5. how or why can i not launch one probe ? I often do not need to advertise that i am scanning.also i often lauch one probe and set it out of DS range, and when i see ships or what ever i will lauch 7 more and get a ship lock and the 1st probe is still scanning the whole system for new info. uncloaking more often is not good.
6. do the signal strength of sigs shown still correspond to the same sig strength we currently have?
7. how do i prevent them from starting in the center of the system ? kind of hard to keep the probes off of others directional scan with them starting in the center of the system.
8. can the probes be moved, spaced apart all at the same time by using ONE key and a mouse ? Shift key and alt key and mouse click to move the pattern in and out is a bit much. especially for those of us using programable mice do to old stiff hands and fingers. and why the swaping and mixing of shift, alt, etc from past use ?
9. how do I sort the scanned out sites by type, name, etc ? no columns to use.
10. when using the new sensor overlay scanner how can i get a list of anoms to show. haveing to "look" around the system to see what is there or to select a item to warp to is just time consuming and silly. the sites ID name often overlap each other and can not be read. also a good way to loose a ship getting locked while your selecting the right warp point......
11. can i get the new sensor scanner to work and show a list of items and get the sites shown on the window GONE to reduce clutter and make it easier to see what i need to see?
12. when you hold the mouse over a site you get a sound effect, does the sound patterns or effects coaralate with the site types?
13. how do we get probes to be left in space and NOT recalled on docking, jumping gates, etc ? probes left in space are very useful to some of us.
14. what happens and what are the effects with our scanning implants that we are using and have spent isk on ?
15. has the scanning system quit remembering sites scanned to 100% ?
16 probes timers? do they last forever now ?
17. the ignore results and clear results do not seem to be working correctly
18. so i now need to fill up ship slots with modules when they become avaiable to get max scan ability ? or am i missing something, do max skills give final effects with out need of modules or are both neeeded?
19. sort of a different subject but what is ccp's goal or intention on making grav sites no longer needed to be scaned out.
thanks |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:24:00 -
[338] - Quote
That's exactly what they tries to combat with DSP removal. Don't hold your breath for it coming back in any form. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Haulie Berry
616
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:29:00 -
[339] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:That's exactly what they tries to combat with DSP removal. Don't hold your breath for it coming back in any form.
Actually, there are some good arguments for the return of DSPs, and the sig strength of the system scanner seems, so far, like it might be a fairly workable alternative to that particular function of DSPs. I haven't played with it much, yet, and it might not provide the same resolution, but you can *definitely* tell if it's on the weak end or the strong end.
Enough people want DSPs and 8 probes for 4/4 configs that I wouldn't be surprised if they reverse course on this one. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:36:00 -
[340] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:That's exactly what they tries to combat with DSP removal. Don't hold your breath for it coming back in any form.
This can be dealt with without removing DSP. It might take a more creative approach but it should be possible to randomize sig strength results at lower signal strengths so there is overlap among sig types so you can't be sure of the type. The scanner doesn't display sig strength anymore.
|
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Bill Orland
Think Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:41:00 -
[341] - Quote
Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:For PvP, some of these changes are.... annoying to say at least. Being unable to sort results by distance is a huge blow to Bomber Wings, and other Combat Probers. I guess sniping ships will benefit greatly from this. The table we have on TQ might not look pretty, but it's functional. The one on SiSi, not so much.
For those of us who are relatively new to scanning, can someone please briefly explain why distance when combat probing matters so much?
|
Yaar Podshipnik
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:50:00 -
[342] - Quote
The only real grip I have so far is the new modules being mids, and all the scanning frigates being rather short on them. So far only Buzzard can fit all 3 new modules and either two analyzers or analyzer and ab/mwd combo.
Also, not seeding new modules is a big disappointment. Can't test what we don't have. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
290
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:55:00 -
[343] - Quote
Ok tested this out on Singularity. The probing changes are really bad. In fact so many things are wrong I will need to spend an hour constructing a proper feedback post.
Before I do that let me ask. Is this basically proper version we are going to see before I spend my time constructing feedback?
Just off the bat a few things which need changing asap.
1. All cosmic signatures should appear in the system scanner window seeing as the DSP has now been taken away.
2. More options are needed for probe formations and layout. The pinpoint formation is good, but the spread formation??
3. 8 probes need to be bought back and other variations under the standard 7 probes need to be bought back.
4. Probe layouts should be much more customisable, right now you can't really do anything with them compared to the options we have pre odyysey.
Those 4 major things are pretty essential to sort out before we can even begin looking at this in depth. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
290
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:57:00 -
[344] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:That's exactly what they tries to combat with DSP removal. Don't hold your breath for it coming back in any form. This can be dealt with without removing DSP. It might take a more creative approach but it should be possible to randomize sig strength results at lower signal strengths so there is overlap among sig types so you can't be sure of the type. The scanner doesn't display sig strength anymore. What happened to CCP supporting emergent gameplay? Come on CCP, if this is true then you are really dropping the ball on this one.
|
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:59:00 -
[345] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just wanted to chime in, it's still a public holiday here in Iceland. I'm still compiling all of your feedback though, and will go over it with the team tomorrow. We will then start replying to a few of the points here.
Big thanks for the feedback, I know you guys are passionate about it and so are we.
It seems you have a big task to iron out all of the problems in these new changes.
I have found a number of points in this list that seemed significant to me.
100% scans T2 modules requiring skill at level 1? Numerous posts about launching single probes. Numerous posts about deep space probes. Resizing columns/centering probe map Shift+Alt (haha! Choosing the quick keyboard layout change key combo!) also 4 probe pattern (CCP limiting options/innovation) also Spread formation (example of CCP not knowing how things are done) Shift does opposite Numerous posts angry at the removal of personal skill in the scanning process. Probes expire without a timer Warp indicator lines (green lines) are gone Custom probe setups?
To this list I would add the integration of the system scanner into probe scanning. Different groups and people are working on these but the features should be integrated and functioning with each other.
CCP Paradox wrote:Saving formations is tricky, but we do really want to at least save the last formation you assembled the probes into. I cannot promise that for Odyssey at this stage, but we're working on it. That you are considering this is good. Providing some basic formations is fine, but as the spread location shows, CCP will not know the best formation for every situation. One person suggested adding this to scripts. You could also add a custom probe button to the scanning formations list (player custom). The last formation is ok, but being able to customize the formation bar is better.
CCP Paradox wrote:Not easier, but more accessible. We are not trying to reduce the art of scanning down to a simple click, we are aiming to make scanning more accessible to those who want to use it, but still requires you to master the art. This sounds exactly the same as marketing speak. Hopefully you will return some of the skill options to us. For example allow the 8 probes so that people can do their own thing and discover ideas that CCP has not thought about.
CCP Fozzie wrote:The list view onboard scanner is still in this version of SISI, but we are planning on removing it barring any major problems with the sensor overlay. Ideally we want to keep the number of tools people need to learn the same with this change, not increase it. This list is in the same location as the list produced by probes. It would be nice to confirm that Fozzie is not planning on removing the probe scanner list. I would assume that he is only talking about the onboard scanner analyze button. As part of integrating the work from these two separate groups removing this list causes problems. I can see the anomaly, but it won't appear on my list... |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
291
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 18:08:00 -
[346] - Quote
Ive figured a way to get other probe formations. It is quite long winded though. You have to launch 7 probes to begin with, and then recall each probe you don't want, which kind of defeats the purpose. Also probe formation are still customisable which is good, but options for 8 probes need to be bought back, launching 8 probes should be the standard option. |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 18:10:00 -
[347] - Quote
I appreciate the effort to make scanning more exciting but I'm very disappointed by current implementation. Absence of any reasoning makes me think that people working on it are very incompetent in scanning.
Now to details. BTW I'm not a wormholer but do a lot of scanning for PvE and PvP.
Seven probes launched at once Why would you do that to us? I need to launch 1, 4 or 8 probes in different situations. - Launching probes one by one was in line with launching everything in EVE and you're "making it simpler" where it's not needed. - 8th probe. We really need it. - Also I don't like your formations and want to save mine.
Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock This has two problems. - Sometimes I need to place probes in certain position and recall them after I re-enter the system to scan for some ship. - Forgetting to recall probes was one of catching game features for me. It will be sad not to hear or say "Damn, forgot those probes" any more.
Deep Space Probe removal Provide the reason please. They are very useful to get signal strength for the whole system. And making them available only at Astrometrics 5 looks reasonable.
Skill Changes Why change what works great? Looks like you did it only to change default to 7 probes (which is very bad) so Astrometrics skill became useless and you didn't find a good bonus for it. - Also look at Astrometric Rangefinding skill. 5% bonus for x8 skill, seriousely? You won't need this skill at all with new modules.
New exploration modules Don't add them please. You are making Astrometric Rangefinding level 5 and Virtue set unneeded at all. Also this modules currently require skill at level 1 for T1 and T2. Shouldn't it be level 5 for T2? Anyway T1 bonuses are so high you'll never need to train skill to level 5.
And +1 to issues already raised. Like copying results, sorting by column, remembering what is scanned to 100% etc. If you want to improve things - don't remove useful features. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
621
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 18:27:00 -
[348] - Quote
Seems to me a lot of unintended psudo-exploits were developed over the years.
1) using the signal strength to know the sig type without actually probing to 50%. 2) launching probes, then leaving them preset in desired formation, to come back and reconnect to later.
CCP seems to be "messing with" some of those unintended uses of probes, and people ain't happy about it.
For me, the killer is how much faster it will be to scan down ships. Null sec miners user to be fairly safe in a newly spawned sig. You knew that even if a bad guy came into system, it was going to take him time to probe you down. Not any more... grav are not anoms. Hate that change.
But, even if you are in a safe, combat probing is going to be SOOO much faster now. |
Kcolorr
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 18:57:00 -
[349] - Quote
Bill Orland wrote:Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:For PvP, some of these changes are.... annoying to say at least. Being unable to sort results by distance is a huge blow to Bomber Wings, and other Combat Probers. I guess sniping ships will benefit greatly from this. The table we have on TQ might not look pretty, but it's functional. The one on SiSi, not so much. For those of us who are relatively new to scanning, can someone please briefly explain why sorting by distance when combat probing matters so much?
You have a friendly fleet of oracles fighting a hostile fleet of oracles, there is also a third fleet of oracles inside a pos nearby that's within combat scan range. Distance is the only way to decipher which fleet you're going to be warping to, distance is the only way to decide which signatures you ignore and which you do not.
I can only imagine the pain of the oracle FCs as they attempt to warp at each other just to find out that the probe results they're using are their own fleet and nothing happens because they cannot tell the distance. |
Bill Orland
Think Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:10:00 -
[350] - Quote
Kcolorr wrote:Bill Orland wrote:Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:For PvP, some of these changes are.... annoying to say at least. Being unable to sort results by distance is a huge blow to Bomber Wings, and other Combat Probers. I guess sniping ships will benefit greatly from this. The table we have on TQ might not look pretty, but it's functional. The one on SiSi, not so much. For those of us who are relatively new to scanning, can someone please briefly explain why sorting by distance when combat probing matters so much? You have a friendly fleet of oracles fighting a hostile fleet of oracles, there is also a third fleet of oracles inside a pos nearby that's within combat scan range. Distance is the only way to decipher which fleet you're going to be warping to, distance is the only way to decide which signatures you ignore and which you do not. I can only imagine the pain of the oracle FCs as they attempt to warp at each other just to find out that the probe results they're using are their own fleet and nothing happens because they cannot tell the distance.
Thank you very much for the response. I've typically used dscanning and proximity to celestials as landmarks for this purpose, but it seems like this may be faster? |
|
Suicidal Blonde
Alchemical Aquisitions
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:13:00 -
[351] - Quote
Amy Garzan wrote:Do not like that we are not reimbursed for multiplier change.
Do not like that you have to launch 7 probes
Do not like that you effectively have to use addon mods to get the same results that used to get with pure skills.
this |
Jim Orland
Furyan Federation Fade 2 Black
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:13:00 -
[352] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Seems to me a lot of unintended psudo-exploits were developed over the years.
1) using the signal strength to know the sig type without actually probing to 50%. 2) launching probes, then leaving them preset in desired formation, to come back and reconnect to later.
CCP seems to be "messing with" some of those unintended uses of probes, and people ain't happy about it.
This is BS. Memorizing or writing down the base strengths of different kinds of signatures is no more an exploit than remembering that Tama, OMS, Rancer, and Mara are usually gatecamped.
Nor is leaving probes out and reconnecting to them later. "Emergent gameplay using existing mechanics" isn't a "pseudo-exploit" - it's the way that this game is supposed to work. If CCP only wanted reconnection to work in cases of disconnection, they could easily add conditionals to the reconnection function that would only let reconnection work if you recently connected. |
Lyhanee Rinah
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:15:00 -
[353] - Quote
Most of my fellow WH dwellers already mentioned the most important things as please not remove DSP and the 8th probe, but my biggest concern is missing ability to order things the way I want:
- Order results by strength OR alphabetically. Alphabetically is useful if you have large resultlists (WHs) and need to only look for specific new signatures (which happens to WHler all the time).
- Don't automatically recall. This is one of the "you have to know"-things. It enables additional tactics such as jumping out with probes deployed, jump back, reconnect and instantly scan (e.g. for super capital logging in). Loosing 7 core probes I isn't a biggy for a new player if you missed to recall it, loosing 7 RSS/Sister probes for a professional is embarrassing and he deserved to get laughed at by his Corp for begging someone to come and bring him new.
|
Haulie Berry
616
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:30:00 -
[354] - Quote
Suicidal Blonde wrote:Amy Garzan wrote:Do not like that we are not reimbursed for multiplier change.
Do not like that you have to launch 7 probes
Do not like that you effectively have to use addon mods to get the same results that used to get with pure skills. this
1. Why would you be compensated for the skill changes? When have they EVER refunded SPs without removing a skill wholesale?
2. There is a valid concern regarding the 7 probe thing.
3. You do not have to use addon mods to get the same results that you used to get with pure skills.
So you just reiterated something that was 66(.666666)% bull ****. Well done. |
Cage Man
202
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:34:00 -
[355] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Cage Man wrote:I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning.
I shall repeat what I said.. I only trained it to use the DSP to speed up my exploration times. Prior to that I had no need for it.. I was able to scan everything in high, low, null and wh's without it before.. and I can bet it can be done without it after the patch. If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:37:00 -
[356] - Quote
Cage Man wrote: If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..
If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3726
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:38:00 -
[357] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Cage Man
202
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:38:00 -
[358] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I think there is more consideration behind the changes than many here realize.
CCP decided that scanning should become easier and faster in general. It's legitimate to disagree with this goal, but that is what they want. I for my part support this goal because I believe it can bring more players into w-space who are now put off because they don't like scanning.
You have this way wrong.. spend time in the npc and noob chats.. players have no problems with the scanning.. they fear the being blown up part.. which is what you, and I know I used to do to anyone entering your wh
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
976
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:43:00 -
[359] - Quote
I was proud of, and my corp mates were quite impressed with my ability to scan as well as I could at only 1 month old. The old scanning method was something that just made sense to me. This new on makes sense also, it just removes the natural talent that great scanners had. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Robus Muvila
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
283
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:43:00 -
[360] - Quote
Two step wrote: CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages |
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:45:00 -
[361] - Quote
Two step wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread.
Not surprising. I saw your earlier post and knew no one was consulted. The 7 probe formation yells noob. Removal of DSP and distance screams ignorance. By all means make it accessible, but leave some depth to probing. |
Cage Man
202
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:50:00 -
[362] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Cage Man wrote: If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..
If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points.
I have no need now and never will on this character to be able to use what you suggest. His purpose is simple, mine, scout, scan for exploration and wh's, PI, mission running in HS and when opportunity arises some pew pew.. I have other characters that can do blops etc..
I still do not see the need to have the skill to 5 anymore.. and the extra 5% I gain with it is not going to change my ability to find anything PVE related in my scanning bonused tengu with scan rigs..
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Haulie Berry
616
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:55:00 -
[363] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Cage Man wrote: If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..
If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points. I have no need now and never will on this character to be able to use what you suggest. His purpose is simple, mine, scout, scan for exploration and wh's, PI, mission running in HS and when opportunity arises some pew pew.. I have other characters that can do blops etc.. I still do not see the need to have the skill to 5 anymore.. and the extra 5% I gain with it is not going to change my ability to find anything PVE related in my scanning bonused tengu with scan rigs..
Oh, ffs...
Too bad, guy. Seriously. Skills change all the time without reimbursement. The same whiny, entitled begging took place when they introduced datacores to FW. "Whaaa, my research skills are USELESS now!"
Well, no, the skills aren't useless. They still have important in-game uses. They're just no longer used the way YOU used them. You're still deriving a benefit from them. It's a different benefit, and it may not be a benefit you personally feel is worth the SPs, but that's a personal problem, and letting you suffer through it is clearly preferable to having to reimburse everyone for everything every time they make a change to game mechanics.
Get over it. |
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:57:00 -
[364] - Quote
I'm about 10 pages behind on reading this thread, but wanted to get my feedback in from what I saw last night...
The Good: GÇó After scanning for an hour on SiSi, then going back to Tranquility, the old system felt very repetitive. The overall ease of use with the new system is great for most scanning activities that I perform.
GÇó Pinpoint formation and probes moving in/out while changing scan range is beautiful, and a real time saver!
The Bad: GÇó Being able to see signatures without dropping a probe is very disappointing. I've liked how signatures were not visible to those who chose not to probe for them. By launching probes and scanning I felt like I was exploring and finding something that many (most?) players pass-by everyday.
It doesn't really seem like "exploration" if all it takes entering a system to "discover" everything that is there.
GÇó While the scanning system seemed easier, it was frustratingly difficult to do anything other than "standard formations" with 7 probes. It felt like I was being penalized if I wanted to use any of the little tricks I've learned from my previous years of scanning.
GÇó 8 probes... it's been stated before, not everyone uses 7 probes to scan for a single sig at once.
GÇó Only 7 probes launched at once... There are many time I only want one or two probes. Seeing 7 probes pop-up on D-Scan is much easier than one or two. If not, and probes can only be launched 7 at a time, then why not make the a single probe item a "pack of 7"?
GÇó DSP being removed... the reason I trained to lvl V was to unlock a probe. Now that the probe is gone, there's little reason to invest the time into training the skills past what is convenient.
GÇó Skills for using +1 probe being removed... I always liked that there was a benefit to training to use additional probes. Someone with lower skills could find some sites, but not all of them... or it would take longer. I had an advantage for investing time to train a skill. Now, with everyone getting 7 probes at level 1, it doesn't feel as rewarding.
I like the idea of having exploration open to everyone, but there should be an advantage to specializing... right now it seems that advantage has been removed completely.
GÇó UI still needs refinement... Not being able to resize the column widths makes seeing the names of sites difficult (unless you windows are large), and signatures should be sortable based on the various information (name, site type, sig strength, etc.). Warp-to button is bulky and not something I'd ever use... maybe a "bookmark" button? But honestly I'd rather just click for a context menu and have the extra room for sig information.
GÇó Probes automatically in formation around the sun (not me)... often times I want to have the probes close to me (not the sun) until I send them out into the system.
GÇó Spread formation has gaps in it, and I couldn't' find an easy way to change the scan res of the probes by click/drag without adjusting the probe spacing as well. With the new mechanics I'd likely just use the pinpoint formation for everything (even initially scanning the whole system).
GÇó Mid-slot scanning modules, combined with mid-slot archeology/hacking modules, means even less chance to have a "all-in-one" exploration ship.
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:00:00 -
[365] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Cage Man wrote: If you trained BS5 for a carrier.. you can still use it for marauders and blops, I have no need to have the skill to level 5 now. CCP is removing something many of us specifically trained for which really adds no value anymore..
If you trained Astrometrics5 for DSPs.. you can still use it for Jump Portal Generation and Tech2 Launchers. There is absolutely no need to reimburse you any points. I have no need now and never will on this character to be able to use what you suggest. His purpose is simple, mine, scout, scan for exploration and wh's, PI, mission running in HS and when opportunity arises some pew pew.. I have other characters that can do blops etc.. I still do not see the need to have the skill to 5 anymore.. and the extra 5% I gain with it is not going to change my ability to find anything PVE related in my scanning bonused tengu with scan rigs..
So, how is your situation different from a Archon pilot who does not plan to fly Amarr Battleships? Or the Orca pilot who does not wish to fly mining barges? The Sleipnir pilot who doesn't plan on flying HACs? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Bum Shadow
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:03:00 -
[366] - Quote
I want to rant and rave about removal of DSPs and such
But i just CANNOT get over why you changed the key bindings.
Thats like reversing all the WASD keys in dust. Why? They were intuative and fine as they were so leave them as they were. Just tell people about the keys in the scanning tutorial. Rather than letting them scan for years before discovering they existed.
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:04:00 -
[367] - Quote
Lets try not to turn this into a "wah I want my skills reimbursed thread". There are much more important matter at stake here. |
Innabiggahurry
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:05:00 -
[368] - Quote
The sheer number of people in this thread who haven't bothered to read, think, and then post is staggering.
Astrometrics: Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
It should be obvious how those two things work together. It should also be obvious why you would still want to train Astrometrics V even though DSPs are being removed.
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:07:00 -
[369] - Quote
Robus Muvila wrote:Two step wrote: CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Wow. WTF is that about? Why is Mittani being consulted instead of the CSM..... |
SemperAtrox
Dark Quantum Singularity
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:10:00 -
[370] - Quote
Why do you remove DSP?! i live in a huge W-space where a single DSP at full range at the star can warn me about a ship entering or decloaking anywhere in the system. 7 combats can't see the whole system. And why to launch 7 probes at once?... |
|
Jim Womack
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:11:00 -
[371] - Quote
*stuff I'm Sure that has already been said"
Would be nice if probes deployed around my ship and not default to the sun. I realize the probes still physically drop around my ship however the first scan pattern defaults at the star
I'm unsure why there is a reconnect to lost probes button still when they auto pull on docking jumping ect... maybe its for a client disconnect but I haven't experienced that on the test server.
The ability to copy and paste sig id's is a huge thing for my and many other w-space corps and the new awesome ability to drop all probes at once is kinda negated by the fact we can no longer group paste all the sig id's in a system for scanning. So we basically gained something pretty awesome and at the same time lost another. ... sadness
The new scan feature is visually pleasing but it would be nice if I had a option to turn the auto repeat feature off so that I can still see the pretty new anoms/sigs in space but don't have to have a seizure every 5 seconds as the system scan effect is pretty in your face loud compared to the rest of the game.
would be nice if the system scanner window on the probes Range would update as I drag the bubble size out or down as its easy to forget what au I'm scanning at now
while scanning some sigs that I had scanned to 100% would drop off the scan results at random and would have to be re-scanned down.
there is no probe timer anywhere so we have no clue when the probes expire.
I'm sure there are more thing but this is just my first impression.. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:12:00 -
[372] - Quote
Bum Shadow wrote:But i just CANNOT get over why you changed the key bindings.
Well, probably because Shift-Drag and Alt-Resize were the 2 most commonly used movement options. Now it's intuitive, because I rarely want to move only one probe around. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:13:00 -
[373] - Quote
Innabiggahurry wrote:The sheer number of people in this thread who haven't bothered to read, think, and then post is staggering.
Astrometrics: Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
It should be obvious how those two things work together. It should also be obvious why you would still want to train Astrometrics V even though DSPs are being removed.
It's not obvious. 5% on scan strength is the only real extremely minor benefit. Scan deviation and time are pretty irrelevant. Astro 5 was for 8 probes and DSP.
|
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
126
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:13:00 -
[374] - Quote
-8 probes -deep space probes -let us launch probes individually if we so desire
That is all. |
Haulie Berry
617
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:13:00 -
[375] - Quote
Now, with the new modules and the general increase in ease, I think it might be worth it to consider making signatures harder to pinpoint.
Right now, with max skills, in an unbonused ship with a T1 launcher, standard probes, and no related rigs or implants, I can scan down any PvE sig except the very weakest strength-category (maybe the second weakest as well, but those were always grav sites, so I never bother, and they're no longer going to exist, so it's moot).
I kind of feel like there is a lot of wiggle room, especially with the introduction of new modules, to slide the whole signature spectrum down a few notches in strength.
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:15:00 -
[376] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Two step wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread. Not surprising. I saw your earlier post and knew no one was consulted. The 7 probe formation yells noob. Removal of DSP and distance screams ignorance. By all means make it accessible, but leave some depth to probing. Yes pretty much spot on. When I first heard the proposals I had a feeling the hadn't actually consulted anyone who actually scans in the game and knows about its intricacies. This is even more evident testing it on Singularity right now.
Two things CCP should do right now to sort this out in my opinion -
1. Allow amount of probes launched to be selected by right clicking the module from 1 probe up to 8.
2. Bring back the scanning overview with all the cosmic signatures displayed.
They could do more, but I think for a minimum they need to bring back the scanning overview. It is kind of stupid that the signature can be displayed in space by spinning the camera around in a noobish sort of way, but you can't have all the sigs displayed in a neat table on your ships computer.
|
Bum Shadow
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:15:00 -
[377] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Bum Shadow wrote:But i just CANNOT get over why you changed the key bindings. Well, probably because Shift-Drag and Alt-Resize were the 2 most commonly used movement options. Now it's intuitive, because I rarely want to move only one probe around.
Right, i understand the shift thing.
Why make the contraction ****+alt now though. why not just... alt.... like it was? why change that? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3728
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:18:00 -
[378] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Robus Muvila wrote:Two step wrote: CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations.
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Wow. WTF is that about? Why is Mittani being consulted instead of the CSM.....
That is only a partial quote, and I am adding back in the rest of it. It wasn't Mittens, it was an article about the GDC player meet - http://themittani.com/news/trip-report-san-fransiscogdc-eve-player-meet CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:24:00 -
[379] - Quote
Two step wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Robus Muvila wrote:Two step wrote: CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations.
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Wow. WTF is that about? Why is Mittani being consulted instead of the CSM..... That is only a partial quote, and I am adding back in the rest of it. It wasn't Mittens, it was an article about the GDC player meet - http://themittani.com/news/trip-report-san-fransiscogdc-eve-player-meet Ok, that makes sense now. |
Resilan Bearcat
Fighting Carebears
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:25:00 -
[380] - Quote
Good: I liked the interface for resizing and moving the probes - simpler, more streamlined I liked the ability to deploy all probes at once ( I can only deploy 7 anyway)
Bad: Giant orange roadsigns in space No list of signatures available for the anomalies (could only see them in space, see first bad thing) Once scanned to 100%, the giant orange roadsign didn't update accordingly Once the probes were moved, the 100% lock was lost Giant flourescent roadsigns (needs repeating, it breaks immersion) doesn't feel like space Cannot see approximate location of signatures on the solar system map
Indifferent: scanning animation - doesn't do anything for me mid slots to improve scanning (will compete with exploring mods) |
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:26:00 -
[381] - Quote
Bum Shadow wrote:Why make the contraction shift+alt now though. why not just... alt.... like it was? why change that?
You can contract probes by resizing them. Just click-resize a single probe-sphere. It's what most people did, I assume. Resize radius, recenter probes. That is now a single move. Very useful.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Innabiggahurry
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:28:00 -
[382] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Innabiggahurry wrote:The sheer number of people in this thread who haven't bothered to read, think, and then post is staggering.
Astrometrics: Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
It should be obvious how those two things work together. It should also be obvious why you would still want to train Astrometrics V even though DSPs are being removed.
It's not obvious. 5% on scan strength is the only real extremely minor benefit. Scan deviation and time are pretty irrelevant. Astro 5 was for 8 probes and DSP. What's half of 10? 5
The things Astrometrics will cover in Odyssey are the exact same things the other skills cover. The total bonus at Astro 5 is 25% to all of the other skills and if you have the others maxed, you'll be receiving a total 50% bonus, exactly like you did before. If I've got my math right, it is actually much better for low skilled probers under the new system. It's likely the new modules will have some or all of these as prereqs, which will further increase the bonuses beyond what is possible today without implants and/or Sisters equipment. Assuming they keep Sisters stuff and implants, the bonuses will be massive.
Think first, post second. And to think you did it for a post that already said that. Well, I guess that isn't surprising, since you don't seem to be doing ANY reading. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
623
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:33:00 -
[383] - Quote
Bum Shadow wrote:you gain 1% per scan until about 1AU. then you jump right to 60% then you pin it 100% next scan. With a removal of DSPs. I'd like you to smooth that curve out meaning we can hit that first 25% much easier at greater sizes and therefor much more easily determin what we want and what we dont.
Scanning for sites can be enjoyable. But scanning 40 sites you dont want. to find 1 you do is not fun, its extremely frustrating. DSPs allowed exploration to be a lot more enjoyable as you spend more time playing content and less time getting angry at "another unknown sig" so please, if you're going to eliminate this functionality all together, at least consider the function of the old DSPs and attempt to meet at some middle ground.
Is this a "whaaaa, you removed my exploit" post?
I'm pretty sure CCP never intended that the DSP's signal strength be a short-cut to knowing exactly what a sig is without actually scanning it down. |
Haulie Berry
619
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:34:00 -
[384] - Quote
Resilan Bearcat wrote: Giant flourescent roadsigns (needs repeating, it breaks immersion) doesn't feel like space
Strongly disagree with the "breaks immersion" bit. It's not a roadsign in space - it's a marker that is being displayed on a HUD by a ship system.
They definitely need some tweaking, and I, too, miss the "list", but I don't see anything "immersion breaking" about a ship system overlaying visual indicators on its display. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:36:00 -
[385] - Quote
Innabiggahurry wrote: Think first, post second. And to think you did it for a post that already said that. Well, I guess that isn't surprising, since you don't seem to be doing ANY reading.
You're missing my point. I could give a crap about a worthless 5% change. I didn't train Astrometrics 5 for the bonuses. I trained it for the extra probe and ability to use DSP.
I'm not looking for SP either.
|
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:36:00 -
[386] - Quote
scaning time progresion bar should be back becouse, is nice to see when somthing hapening during boring scaning, you have place for this between probe luch formation butons and map buton in system scaner window
now to change scan probe range you need to grab and drag blue spahre (not like this method i more prefer this secend) or righ click at selected probes and you get first menu with 4 options; recover probe, destroy probe, deactivate probe, scan range. when you go scan range option you get all ranges option to chose, my offer is to delate secend menu, delete in first menu scan range option, and put in first menu all ranges form secend menu so you have all in first menu
secend issue is selecting probes in on board scaner window, now to selecet one probe you need to one left click at it, to select all you need click one from top or form boton and with shift key left click to top or botom probe, my request here is to make that to select all probes by only two left clicks at any proble; you click two times left button at any probe and you get all probes selected,
and one more thing, now when you press analyze when you scaning probes all selected probles in system scaner window going to be deselect so, now if i wish to change the range i need to selec them all after every scan, they should be selected still after scan.
add addtional window with confirmation for destroying probes when you wish to destroy you probes |
pierre arthos
Aperture Harmonics K162
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:39:00 -
[387] - Quote
The new scanning interface brings nothing to the game that wasn't there before. It does however screw up one of the few parts of the game that didn't need fixing. Well done Dev Team!
Goodbye 3rd party scanning tools for WH residents, goodbye scanning out systems and travelling without melting your brain. Happy happy joy joy.
Goodbye armour scanning T3's (fare ye well oh loyal Proteus, consigned to history now). There is so much bad I don't know where to look. |
Shellac Brookdale
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:42:00 -
[388] - Quote
Being able to copy signature IDs along with the probe results to clipboard is really important for existing tools allowing to collaboratively share information on probing results. The improved interface is nice but please bring back ctrl+a ctrl+c |
Indy McSmarty
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:49:00 -
[389] - Quote
I am really , really missing the progress bar of the scan , both system scanner and probe scan. Its like i click a button and ... wait for things to happen, if and when - one can not tell.
Small visual feedback on the probe one exists - where probes start and end cycling in space. System scan is just plainly bad. - if there is no sigs in the system - i can find out only if i perform a scan again and get a popup msg "no sigs found" , if i miss it - there is no way to tell if i ever had a scan started.
Is this intentional ? i find it kinda annoying , yes i can count to 10 , but the game feel of you piloting a ship via controls is just not there.
|
Gordena Gecko
Greed Ltd.
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:52:00 -
[390] - Quote
For all of you crying about dsp removal, have you checked out that the starting % after first system sweep are still in the usual bands? what i have confirmed so far, based on 10 probstrengh dsp:
old new
0,20 10% 0,13 7% 0,10 5% 0,05 3%
I bet the rest is accordingly, just was not able to find such a signature in the 15min i spend discovering that. If CCP changes that every ano/sig after first sweep is in the list (currently not working) it will be even easier then before, no more dsp needed. |
|
Haulie Berry
619
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:55:00 -
[391] - Quote
Gordena Gecko wrote:For all of you crying about dsp removal, have you checked out that the starting % after first system sweep are still in the usual bands? what i have confirmed so far, based on 10 probstrengh dsp:
old new
0,20 10% 0,13 7% 0,10 5% 0,05 3%
I bet the rest is accordingly, just was not able to find such a signature in the 15min i spend discovering that. If CCP changes that every ano/sig after first sweep is in the list (currently not working) it will be even easier then before, no more dsp needed.
This has been my experience so far, as well, but I've only scanned down a handful of signatures.
That said, the ability to swiftandbitter sigs is not the only complaint regarding DSPs. There are some other (valid) ones. |
Angsty Teenager
Derpotle
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:56:00 -
[392] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote: Probes now instantly recall on system jump or station dock
Please, while I understand why this feature is being implemented, make this a tick option, I currently make use of the fact that probes remain in space quite often.
When I am probing missioners, I often leave them out while I check other systems so I don't have to relaunch them and move them off d-scan. I just reconnect when i get back into system. The same thing applies for quick checks into other wormholes.
I urge you to make this an option, not a mandatory change.
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:58:00 -
[393] - Quote
Gordena Gecko wrote:For all of you crying about dsp removal, have you checked out that the starting % after first system sweep are still in the usual bands? what i have confirmed so far, based on 10 probstrengh dsp:
old new
0,20 10% 0,13 7% 0,10 5% 0,05 3%
I bet the rest is accordingly, just was not able to find such a signature in the 15min i spend discovering that. If CCP changes that every ano/sig after first sweep is in the list (currently not working) it will be even easier then before, no more dsp needed.
The DSP is needed if you scan 4/4 with different probe types. I think the 1 DSP drop is gamey. If you scan enough you don't need a chart to know sigs. |
Aivlis Eldelbar
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:02:00 -
[394] - Quote
Most of what I wanted to say on this has already been said by older and more experienced probers, but I'll repeat the main points just in case.
-8th probe. Please, it is the basis of many probing patterns that whoever devised these changes seems to be unaware of. You are removing a mechanic that is used by players a lot; why?
-DSPs. If you (CCP) think people use these to actually scan down sites and they can now be removed, you don't know anything about probing. They are useful in manners that the devs never envisioned and removing them will destroy some very nice mechanics that people came up with: overwatch, single probe checking, signature classification and many other things will become much harder now. Again, you are removing a useful item; why?
Also, it seems that in the name of making exploration more accessible you are indeed dumbing it down. Want to make it better and more fun for all involved? Hare is a list of changes that would be loved by most pilots, because they ADD to the game, instead of removing things we all use and even like:
-D-Scan: update the UI, it is stuck in the Pre-Cambrian era now. If the overview works in AUs, then why does the dscan work in kms? Why do I have to enter a number instead of having a slider between min and max range? This thing is an obvious target for a rework that will be loved by all.
-Probing interface: while the work done on it is nice, and it looks prettier, what it should be is more usable, not fancier. Copy-pastable list of results, 100% results staying between scanning sessions and/or jumps out of system and the like would make probing easier without turning it into "press A, press B, win!"
-Randomness: interference, both natural and player generated, has been suggested. Dare I suggest a system upgrade that makes all sigs harder to lock down? Or phenomena that would make signatures more difficult to find? I heard something about making illumination in a system dependant on distance to the star; how about making ships closer to the star harder to probe, because of all the electromagnetic radiation in their area?
-Counter-scanning: a ship communicating with probes should be vulnerable, because it's not isolated from the outside. When you cloak you lose your drones but not your probes, which is a bit weird. A mechanic that would make a probing ship scannable (even if it would have a VERY low sig strength, say 0.01 base) would be lovely, and would add interaction to the game.
-2nd probe launcher: just because I'm greedy and want to have a launcher filled with DSPs and another one with Core. I don't like realoading, as you can see.
In the end it boils down to adding features, not removing them in the name of simplicity. Sure, improve the UI, redo the mini-profession sites, give us an option to launch probes in formation. All that is nice, but removing things that are used just because the entry-level prober can't use them is a bad idea. Astrometrics V is a skill that puts serious scanners apart from casual ones without harming anyone; you don't need it to probe, but if you probe a lot, then it's worth the time. You are turning it into a pretty meaningless goal with these changes. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:02:00 -
[395] - Quote
I really consider moving out of wh after this patch comes live to tq after living there nearly 3 years. If scanning for chains becomes such a hassle. maybe we wh dwellers should start shooting the statue in Jita ? |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:04:00 -
[396] - Quote
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:many other things will become much harder now. Again, you are removing a useful item; why?
Also, it seems that in the name of making exploration more accessible you are indeed dumbing it down.
I laughed out loud when I read those two sentences. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Ischie
Murderous Inc
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:05:00 -
[397] - Quote
Annoyances and problem feedback from sisi's current scanning iteration:
1. I can no longer launch the 8th probe on sisi. Please fix. It just wont deploy the 8th probe.
2. Results scanned to 100% dont remain at a 100% once you've moved the probes and rescanned. WTF! major annoyance. Please fix
I was really looking forward to the launch 7 probes instantly feature but as of now scanning is breaking my heart on sisi. Please fix the above and more before shipping. |
Fearless Leader2
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:08:00 -
[398] - Quote
spinning the view around, trying to pick out a anom near the sun among several other anom and planets etc in the glare,
how about that nice easy list to pick from |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:09:00 -
[399] - Quote
Ischie wrote:Annoyances and problem feedback from sisi's current scanning iteration:
1. I can no longer launch the 8th probe on sisi. Please fix. It just wont deploy the 8th probe.
Reading is hard.
Quote from the OP of this post:
Quote: Seven probes launched at once Probe launchers can now only launch a maximum of seven probes. These probes are now launched all together. One click, launches all.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
295
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:12:00 -
[400] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Is this a "whaaaa, you removed my exploit" post?
I'm pretty sure CCP never intended that the DSP's signal strength be a short-cut to knowing exactly what a sig is without actually scanning it down. By the way, scan strength is still visible by looking at the sigs in space. So it may well still be possible to get a good indication of a sig still by looking at the initial strength.
I really hope CCP keep this possible as it allows players to build up knowledge and recognise patterns making them a better scanner. It is also part of emergent gameplay which I though CCP tried to encourage. |
|
Innabiggahurry
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:13:00 -
[401] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Innabiggahurry wrote: Think first, post second. And to think you did it for a post that already said that. Well, I guess that isn't surprising, since you don't seem to be doing ANY reading.
You're missing my point. I could give a crap about a worthless 5% change. I didn't train Astrometrics 5 for the bonuses. I trained it for the extra probe and ability to use DSP. I'm not looking for SP either. It's you who aren't getting the point. But since you aren't looking for an actual explanation, just a place to whine, I'll leave you to it.
edit: i have to ask, do you have any of the other probe skills trained to 5? |
Bum Shadow
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:14:00 -
[402] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Is this a "whaaaa, you removed my exploit" post?
I'm pretty sure CCP never intended that the DSP's signal strength be a short-cut to knowing exactly what a sig is without actually scanning it down.
No doubt DSPs are not how CCP intended them to be used. And it wasnt an exploit or we'd all be banned and they would have removed them long ago.
You also cannot tell what a signature is. Only what it isnt with a DSP.
As i said, i kind of understand why they removed them as its not their intended function, but its become a huge feature so some middle ground would be nice rather than just outright eliminating it.
So now i've realized you can contract and shrink the entire probe formation in one click of a button, AND deploy in formation and move all at once with one click. It makes me kind of wonder why you bother putting scanning in at all. Might as well just make them all anoms its that easy :/
I guess despite being initially annoyed about DSPs, they're not really quite so necessary because pinning an entire system takes about 8 seconds....
|
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:18:00 -
[403] - Quote
@NyxSTeeLGamerS Scanning feedback frm sisi: scan results dont stay 100% scanned if you move probes & rescan. very annoying. plz fix #tweetfleet
@CCP_Paradox that is a bug and will be fixed.
I'm also heavily concerned by these changes. |
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:21:00 -
[404] - Quote
-double post sorry- |
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
106
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:33:00 -
[405] - Quote
Is it going to be easier to probe out off-grid boosting links without billions of isk worth of Virtues? Why don't you go ahead and ensure this happens for the betterment of the game as a whole.
That would be fantastic. Thanks in advance! |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:35:00 -
[406] - Quote
likes: 10 pages of criticism: 20
something to be considered... |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
296
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:38:00 -
[407] - Quote
Good news. I can confirm that cosmic signatures can still be identified by their signature. There is a clear pattern which is easily recognisable by anyone who knows what they are doing. I have confirmed this with my own tests on singularity, but I'll let people find it out the pattern for themselves. :)
You do this by locating the signature in space, as opposed to locating the signature on the scanning overview. A signature strength is displayed and can be correlated to the type of signature. This still only gives a rough indication of signature type, but is obviously essential for anyone who traverses wormholes regularly.
So at least there is one bit of good news. DSP scanning is still in the game, and now accessible to even newbies. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2733
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:41:00 -
[408] - Quote
Terrible changes that ruin exploration and scouting, and devalue both player and character skills.
Literally only positive thing is the celestial bracket fix.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
228
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:47:00 -
[409] - Quote
Finally got the probing to work after a couple of tries. Honest opinion is that it felt clumsy, compaired to the refinement of the old system. I like being able to lauch multiple probes, and I love the ability of preset formations, but the way its put together is.....clumsy. Give me a dial or slider to select how may probes to launch. Then let me select and apply some preset formation. Refine the whole system, make it a skill to use again.
Additionaly, one thing that was seriously useful and is now missing is the thin blue circles in the scan bubble that marked the half and then quater ranges of the current range. These were VERY useful and I would like them back.
Take it apart, have another go, give it to someone else to pass their eye over. Its currently too unfinished for even testing on Sisi. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:51:00 -
[410] - Quote
Instead of "looking around in space" to find sigs, see what you think of this:
Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1351
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:56:00 -
[411] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Good news. I can confirm that cosmic signatures can still be identified by their signature. There is a clear pattern which is easily recognisable by anyone who knows what they are doing. I have confirmed this with my own tests on singularity, but I'll let people find it out the pattern for themselves. :)
You do this by locating the signature in space, as opposed to locating the signature on the scanning overview. A signature strength is displayed and can be correlated to the type of signature. This still only gives a rough indication of signature type, but is obviously essential for anyone who traverses wormholes regularly.
So at least there is one bit of good news. DSP scanning is still in the game, and now accessible to even newbies.
Very true. Already noted most of the patterns. The primary annoyance as far as I can tell is that the only way now is to scan around in space, hover over the sig, and manually note the strength. No listed result anywhere else.
As far as the scanning goes. The up changes will take getting used to but it's not the worst. Losing my 8 probe configurations are very frustrating. |
Andrea Griffin
400
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:58:00 -
[412] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Relic sites will require the Relic Analyzer, so no Salvager. Scripted versions are interesting, we will talk about it. But I think we might need to see how popular the modules become. Personally I feel that a scripted version would be more popular than 3 separate modules If the is a One True Module that can be scripted to do any of the 3 jobs, why have those 3 different modules at all and why have different sites? CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Bum Shadow
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:58:00 -
[413] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Good news. I can confirm that cosmic signatures can still be identified by their signature. There is a clear pattern which is easily recognisable by anyone who knows what they are doing. I have confirmed this with my own tests on singularity, but I'll let people find it out the pattern for themselves. :)
You do this by locating the signature in space, as opposed to locating the signature on the scanning overview. A signature strength is displayed and can be correlated to the type of signature. This still only gives a rough indication of signature type, but is obviously essential for anyone who traverses wormholes regularly.
So at least there is one bit of good news. DSP scanning is still in the game, and now accessible to even newbies. Very true. Already noted most of the patterns. The primary annoyance as far as I can tell is that the only way now is to scan around in space, hover over the sig, and manually note the strength. No listed result anywhere else. As far as the scanning goes. The up changes will take getting used to but it's not the worst. Losing my 8 probe configurations are very frustrating.
To augment this id like to see:
It would be really nice if we could click the anom in space, and our camera would pan to it (like clicking anything else)
I'd like this so i can click and pan to an anom to fire off a focused Dscan burst. Manually lining up is fine but, camera panning is nicer :)
adding the results of the sensor sweep to the system scanner so we also have a "Spreadsheet" version for us mega spreadsheet nerds as well as the nice graphical interface in space would also be welcome.
I think this wouldnt be a ballance issue. It is simply presenting information in an additional method. One we are A) well accustomed to and B) easier to find and use than panning around in space looking for the icons. |
Sekraf Reln
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:59:00 -
[414] - Quote
one more voice for the anti 7 probes thing
also, if a signature happens to land exacly between you and a planet, you CANNOT select the planet in the game area. also, hovering the mouse over it doesn't show the list of stuffs near there.. this occurs even when the 'show scaner' thing is turned off. what hapens if you're in a fight and your friend/target you're trying to click on is between you and a sig? now i can't select the target in the game view.. can't even hover over it to identify it. it seems that the signatures on the 'game area' are on the top 'layer' which is all well and good.. keeps you able to select them even when there's something else in the area, but it STOPS you from selecting the other things in the area.. at least move those sig readings to the bottom layer when scanning results are turned off in the game window. thanks
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
297
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:00:00 -
[415] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Good news. I can confirm that cosmic signatures can still be identified by their signature. There is a clear pattern which is easily recognisable by anyone who knows what they are doing. I have confirmed this with my own tests on singularity, but I'll let people find it out the pattern for themselves. :)
You do this by locating the signature in space, as opposed to locating the signature on the scanning overview. A signature strength is displayed and can be correlated to the type of signature. This still only gives a rough indication of signature type, but is obviously essential for anyone who traverses wormholes regularly.
So at least there is one bit of good news. DSP scanning is still in the game, and now accessible to even newbies. Very true. Already noted most of the patterns. The primary annoyance as far as I can tell is that the only way now is to scan around in space, hover over the sig, and manually note the strength. No listed result anywhere else. As far as the scanning goes. The up changes will take getting used to but it's not the worst. Losing my 8 probe configurations are very frustrating.
Yes my thoughts pretty much exactly. Losing the 8 probes is a hit, along with having to move the camera around in space now to indentify the results is very annoying. But I guess I could get used to it so its not all bad.
It would be nice if they bought back 8 probes and made that the standard formation instead of 7.
But after playing round with it for a while it isn't as bad as I first anticipated. But still needs a bit of work though. I don't use probes for pvp much though so perhaps those guys will have a little more issue with these changes. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:04:00 -
[416] - Quote
I-¦ve been an explorer since my first weeks when i was idle at a planet and discovered the on-board scanner and went, "what does this do?". I the quickly acquired decent probing skills before the, as i saw it, dumbing down of exploration as i found it a challenging part of the EvE game play environment . I having maxxd exploration skills found the current system very easy to deal with, and quite profitable, which along with many who are currently on Sisi probably gives us a far better perspective on the new set of upcoming changes than team super-friends.
So i have spent about an hour on the very basics as its agood place to start and this is what i noted as i went along:
Good God, WTF drug was Soundwave on when he came up with this piece of .... its candy for the unthinking masses that play wow or tablet games. its too easy in one sense (use spread to find a red ring or dot, centre and formation it then scan at 0,5au, equals instant hit in high sec (oh more site description, you have to save location to find out wtf it is at present)), its not a game any more, its instant gratification on par with an act of self abuse when all is said and done.
Multiple probe launch, wtf, if you don't have enough probes in launcher sod all happen, and WHY NO TIMER???????, and a sister launcher for only 7 probes!!.
Whoever designed probe (spread) launch layout is a tool (and why do they go to the sun for centering and not stay with the launching ship), they should all overlap at every range setting, did the team design lead actually try probing in the past?. The pinpoint formation is good and the spread formation should be same pattern but allowing coverage with centre probe range giving distance to outlying probe placement. Also range at the moment is not set when adjusted but when scanning takes place, this is very confusing and should have been noticed before it went to duality let alone sisi.
The colour signal strength bar and the sensor overlay are nice graphical touches, (but they actually add nothing to the game, shiny over substance again). Also noted that sensor overlay (which by rigths should be LINKED TO JUST THE ON-BOARD SCANNER) displays on screen the presence of probe only findable sites but they are not present in the scanner window result window, who didn-¦t work out that its a basic design flaw, its either the built in on-board scanner or its a fitted module, otherwise what is the function of the on-board scanner apart from NONE.
i found a Regional Sansha Data Fortress in an 0.4 system and could not get within 10Km of the Sansha hacking sites in it (also all 3 hacking sites all on top of one another!!!) so someone not setting up sites properly, or even testing them for use-ability. Also noted that flying about on sisi that site availability is far lower than can be found on a well probed out tranquillity, how about upping the spawn rate on sisi for the testing.
more on other aspects to follow.
|
Jenn Rose
The Flaming Sideburn's Ineluctable.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:07:00 -
[417] - Quote
I hate you Paradox and not going to read the past 21 pages of hurr durr for other replies. I have used DSP's daily for the past 3 years and you will be changing my game play considerably.
Nothing I see in your post encourages better exploration, which is much needed, but continues to nerf it even further. If CCP does not like exploration, just remove it from the game altogether. Do not keep ******* us year after year. |
Bum Shadow
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:11:00 -
[418] - Quote
Jenn Rose wrote:I hate you Paradox and not going to read the past 21 pages of hurr durr for other replies. I have used DSP's daily for the past 3 years and you will be changing my game play considerably.
Nothing I see in your post encourages better exploration, which is much needed, but continues to nerf it even further. If CCP does not like exploration, just remove it from the game altogether. Do not keep ******* us year after year.
I feel your pain. But take the time to read just page 21 and you'll notice a few people have found that the DSP functions remain. Just in a new form :) Different in presentation but similar in function. |
Urban Trucker
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:12:00 -
[419] - Quote
I somewhat disagree with the removal of the Deep Space Probe.
If you don't want us using spreadsheets with Deep Space Probe.. JUST Make the damn probe show us what anom each sig is.
Drop a DSP, hit scan, all the sigs show up, with the type of anom it is (gravimetric, ladar, anomily, wormhole, etc).
Removes the whole "use a website spreadsheet and figure it out" to "Here is a list of the signatures the probe found, launch others?"
You might as well keep the DSP in the game, and add the type of signature into the DSP ability skill (Just show it already). I am for sale (Fenrir Freighter Pilot, 1.4 mil skillpoints, cheap)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2982440#post2982440 |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:14:00 -
[420] - Quote
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:Most of what I wanted to say on this has already been said by older and more experienced probers, but I'll repeat the main points just in case.
-8th probe. Please, it is the basis of many probing patterns that whoever devised these changes seems to be unaware of. You are removing a mechanic that is used by players a lot; why?
-DSPs. If you (CCP) think people use these to actually scan down sites and they can now be removed, you don't know anything about probing. They are useful in manners that the devs never envisioned and removing them will destroy some very nice mechanics that people came up with: overwatch, single probe checking, signature classification and many other things will become much harder now. Again, you are removing a useful item; why?
Also, it seems that in the name of making exploration more accessible you are indeed dumbing it down. Want to make it better and more fun for all involved? Hare is a list of changes that would be loved by most pilots, because they ADD to the game, instead of removing things we all use and even like:
-D-Scan: update the UI, it is stuck in the Pre-Cambrian era now. If the overview works in AUs, then why does the dscan work in kms? Why do I have to enter a number instead of having a slider between min and max range? This thing is an obvious target for a rework that will be loved by all.
-Probing interface: while the work done on it is nice, and it looks prettier, what it should be is more usable, not fancier. Copy-pastable list of results, 100% results staying between scanning sessions and/or jumps out of system and the like would make probing easier without turning it into "press A, press B, win!"
-Randomness: interference, both natural and player generated, has been suggested. Dare I suggest a system upgrade that makes all sigs harder to lock down? Or phenomena that would make signatures more difficult to find? I heard something about making illumination in a system dependant on distance to the star; how about making ships closer to the star harder to probe, because of all the electromagnetic radiation in their area?
-Counter-scanning: a ship communicating with probes should be vulnerable, because it's not isolated from the outside. When you cloak you lose your drones but not your probes, which is a bit weird. A mechanic that would make a probing ship scannable (even if it would have a VERY low sig strength, say 0.01 base) would be lovely, and would add interaction to the game.
-2nd probe launcher: just because I'm greedy and want to have a launcher filled with DSPs and another one with Core. I don't like realoading, as you can see.
In the end it boils down to adding features, not removing them in the name of simplicity. Sure, improve the UI, redo the mini-profession sites, give us an option to launch probes in formation. All that is nice, but removing things that are used just because the entry-level prober can't use them is a bad idea. Astrometrics V is a skill that puts serious scanners apart from casual ones without harming anyone; you don't need it to probe, but if you probe a lot, then it's worth the time. You are turning it into a pretty meaningless goal with these changes.
^This! Aivlis nailed it in so many levels she deserves a medal, but the main point is: add features, do not remove them to make things simpler.
|
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1005
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:18:00 -
[421] - Quote
i do not know if this has been said already but i will still say it just to make sure it gets out:
'exploration' implies investing time and effort to discover the unknown.
the new system is exactly not that.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Jenn Rose
The Flaming Sideburn's Ineluctable.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:18:00 -
[422] - Quote
CCP really doesn't care about the Exploration profession. I am beginning to realize this after 8 years of play.
They continue to promote its value but continue to nerf it with each patch. I am not impressed with what I see on SISI. Exploration in EVE could be so awesome but CCP could give a rats ass about it. They always tout how awesome of a profession it is but it is anything but. With each so called "expansion" exploration only becomes more nerfed. |
Poetic Stanziel
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
1878
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:18:00 -
[423] - Quote
Two step wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread. I believe Seleene suggested that you were consulted on everything and that Odyssey will be super awesome solely because of CSM7.
I realize you, like Aleks, have some moral fiber.
I wonder when Seleene and Hans start backing away from this expansion?
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
Dranchela
Pixel Navigators
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:22:00 -
[424] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Two step wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread. I believe Seleene suggested that you were consulted on everything and that Odyssey will be super awesome solely because of CSM7. I realize you, like Aleks, have some moral fiber. I wonder when Seleene and Hans start backing away from this expansion?
I'm sure we could talk politics in another thread. For now, how about we focus on providing feedback. That is, after all, what this section is for.
|
Sekraf Reln
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:23:00 -
[425] - Quote
also.. from an IC point of view.. our ship jumps into a system, runs a basic scan, and says 'hey, i just found a Serpentis Drug Lab!' my thought is, "and Concord is where?"
i mean, if a cop could just drive down the street and have each drug lab house just light up for him, you'd think he'd call it in and go in after the guys doing illegal things... just sayin. |
Oratio Straevaras
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:33:00 -
[426] - Quote
I have mixed feelings about these changes, since I'm an avid scanner (just ask anyone in my corp). Not sure if I agree with the change to remove DSP but since I never used them I suppose it doesn't really bother me.
But I'm not here to argue about what should or shouldn't be done. So here we go with some feedback on what has been done.
My notes:
- You can actually start moving your probes while they're scanning (once they're finished moving and started scanning). Not sure if this is intentional or not.
- 100% scanned signatures are lost when you run your next scan if the scanned signature is not in range of four or more of your probes on your next scan (much like combat scanning for ships already was, but signatures don't move). I truly hope this is a bug and not a intended change.
- Since my center probe is often around one or more celestials (such as in the center of the system), I would always move all my probes with an outside probe on my diamond shape scan. I can no longer do this. While holding shift reveals all probes, you can only move one at a time that way. I would like it if you can toggle if all probes are visible or not.
- Please make an option to show the current scan range of probes on each probe icon (I used this a lot more than I realized now). I noticed it still shows probe number and scan range on probes when they're deactivated.
- If you resize one probe on the menu and they try to resize them all on the interface you get really inconsistent resizes.
James Arget for CSM 8!
http://csm.fcftw.org |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
979
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:41:00 -
[427] - Quote
One thing that is really bothering me is, Exploration is currently considered a mini-profession but with the time, skill and cost investment to do it well, it is more like a true profession. The suggested changes turn it into a mini-profession and that will hurt those who enjoy it as there main style of play.
Regarding data sited requireing multuple pilots to do efficiently, that is a bunch of BS to do to explorers. There are days where the loot is grand, and other days when there is almost no loot to speak of. Now not only do you have to compete with other explorers, pirates and roaming gangs you must also have in tow a few groupies that the loot you might find must be split with. Not cool. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1005
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:46:00 -
[428] - Quote
player feedback on the new probing system
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Jenn Rose
The Flaming Sideburn's Ineluctable.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:48:00 -
[429] - Quote
**** off Daniel Plain. You add nothing. |
Oratio Straevaras
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:49:00 -
[430] - Quote
Oratio Straevaras wrote:
- Please make an option to show the current scan range of probes on each probe icon (I used this a lot more than I realized now). I noticed it still shows probe number and scan range on probes when they're deactivated.
Another thing about this, when you change the size of your probes, it's not reflected in the scanning window until you start the scan. So without keeping track you have no idea what scan range your probes are at (which is really annoying at smaller scanning ranges). James Arget for CSM 8!
http://csm.fcftw.org |
|
Jenn Rose
The Flaming Sideburn's Ineluctable.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:50:00 -
[431] - Quote
Exploration in EVE could be so awesome beyond the current system but CCP could care less. |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 22:55:00 -
[432] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Kai Pirinha wrote:Changing the distance of the probes to one each other requires to press alt+shift. Alt+shift is already used by windows for changing the keyboard layout (in my case it toggles the layout between the German and the English layout).
So each time I want to rearrange the probes, it will change my keyboard layout. That's rather ****** to be honest. This. Put it back on Alt only. I should never need to hold down two different modifier keys to use such a basic piece of functionality. Interesting. I'm one of those guys that is constantly switching keyboard layouts and I hadn't noticed this but of course I don't type a lot on my local since there is no one to talk to (forever alone '). I guess the best way is to simply have alt pop up the other controls and then function as before.
Relevant. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1005
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:10:00 -
[433] - Quote
Jenn Rose wrote:**** off Daniel Plain. You add nothing. aparently, at least ten people disagree.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Haulie Berry
622
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:23:00 -
[434] - Quote
Jenn Rose wrote:**** off Daniel Plain. You add nothing.
To be fair, neither do you. Stating that exploration could be, "So awesome," isn't exactly useful without at least a vague description of what you would consider to be a "so awesome" exploration system, and stating that the devs "don't care" is patently idiotic and trollish. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
157
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:28:00 -
[435] - Quote
Make that 11. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Dullmeyr Prodomo
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:51:00 -
[436] - Quote
I am totally annoyed by the fact you force me to use 7 probes.
And- the probe formation is dropped in the center of the system no matter where my ship is located, seriously? Or is it just me? |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 23:55:00 -
[437] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:People complaining specifically about the DSP removal have not understood the new system. DSPs are now in fact useless.
You want to look for new signatures? The new sensor overlay will show them even without any probes launched.
You want to sort sigs? You can do that almost as well with a combat probe, and with probing becoming extremely easy and fast there is really no need anyway. In a system with 40 sigs 20-30 of them will show their group on your first 8 AU scan.
i dont really think you read what ppl said, alot of us do not want to use that annoying scan overlay for 2 reasons, first every 2 seconds a stupid animation and sound appears and second we do not want to move the camera around 360-¦, its ******* annoying and even worse, if you constantly scan for new sigs you might not see it cause your camera just had the wrong position
this changes, besides the one that i can launch 7 probes at once are stupid fact is especially for ppl in wh those changes make it harder, we cant copy and paste sigs anymore -> we are wasting time we cant drop single probes anymore, wtf ccp pls dont tell me what i have to do
you guys are always talking about how awesome the game is and that ppl can do everything in their own way, well with that patch you make us just use 1 way to scan and thats your way most of us, like you can see, dont like at all
also pls give us the chance to turn that scan overlay off completly, we dont need that **** everytime after jumping into a new system, pretty sure its just going to create more lag, plus when we travel thrue empire we arent interested in that ****, i dont care about any sigs when i move stuff around, for ppl who want to use it fine, let them turn it on, but since its annoying pls let us turn it off |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1812
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 00:15:00 -
[438] - Quote
I think what irritates me most about these changes, in general, is that exploration should be challenging. Sure, there needs to be content for low skilled exploration pilots but there needs to remain a challenge for experienced players otherwise what's the point?
If I can now ID all sigs at 4au and bookmark them at 2au, why do my probes go all the way down to 0.25au?
Probing works so well currently that it boggles my mind CCP thought it needed any functional changes at all.
The only changes to the current system that would be nice are:
- being able to launch all (as in 8) probes at once - ignore lists not clearing on session change - the recall probe button being moved as far away from the analyze button as possible - being able to save probe formations
ironically, none of which are being done.
None of the other changes are good. Bars instead of a %? at best useless, at worst extremely annoying if you can't copy paste into 3rd party sites/software. change the bonuses on astro skills? at best useless, at worst dumbing down probing and pissing off people who spent the time to train them to 5 for a 10% bonus. adding scanning mods? a horrible dumbing down of probing, makes it FAR too easy. changing max probes to 7? frankly this is just plain bullsh*t. does absolutely nothing apart from pissing off everyone who uses 8 probes, which generally speaking are the people who probe the most and will be thus using the new system the most. removal of DSP probes? well, I dont care about this since they are more or less useless and dont do anything you cant do with combats but it's again another pointless change.
all of these functional changes are a MASSIVE case of 'if it aint broken, mess with it till it is'.
CCP, you had 1 WH CSM rep last year, now you have 2, all of which have extensive probing experience. If youre not going to listen to the vast dislike of the new system being presented by the majority of posters here, at the very least go talk to the CSM as a whole and especially the WH people about these changes.
|
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 00:38:00 -
[439] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:
CCP, you had 1 WH CSM rep last year, now you have 2, all of which have extensive probing experience. If youre not going to listen to the vast dislike of the new system being presented by the majority of posters here, at the very least go talk to the CSM as a whole and especially the WH people about these changes.
Jack, it does look they need CSM only to say "we have such a nice thing!", but not to ask them of anything really important for players they represent.
I think the removal of the 8th probe is a compensation of the scan-strength (etc) given by those modules. Still I don't get why we need those modules in the first place? I don't have any spare mid in my scanning loki fit I've been using for years now.
CCP! If it is not broken - don't touch it! If you think making things easier will bring you more new players - you can be right. But the same will drive vets off your game. Remember we were named "the best game community" ? Now think who was that - new players or old players who dedicated years to this game? If you are no more interested in us - please let us know, so that we don't waste our time playing this game. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
721
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 00:44:00 -
[440] - Quote
Two step wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:After I tested this and read this thread I only have one question in my mind:
Did anyone in this team bother to talk with the CSM at all before you implement this?
Two Step for sure knows and uses probs everyday and could have told you how bad this new system/changes were, even before you wasted time implementing them.
4 weeks to go, 2/3? before a code freeze?
If this hits singularity like it is, its going to be another s**t storm similar the inventory window one.
/facepalm
I'll answer that, and as you might have expected, the answer is no, CSM was not consulted about these changes. We found out in an article on themittani.com that we would be able to save probe formations. We found out at Fanfest about the probe results UI. We found out about the 7 probes/removal of DSPs from this thread. Gotta update my Sisi.
Two-Step, thanks for the info man.
o7
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
662
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 00:51:00 -
[441] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:Jack Miton wrote:
CCP, you had 1 WH CSM rep last year, now you have 2, all of which have extensive probing experience. If youre not going to listen to the vast dislike of the new system being presented by the majority of posters here, at the very least go talk to the CSM as a whole and especially the WH people about these changes.
Jack, it does look they need CSM only to say "we have such a nice thing!", but not to ask them of anything really important for players they represent. I think the removal of the 8th probe is a compensation of the scan-strength (etc) given by those modules. Still I don't get why we need those modules in the first place? I don't have any spare mid in my scanning loki fit I've been using for years now. CCP! If it is not broken - don't touch it! If you think making things easier will bring you more new players - you can be right. But the same will drive vets off your game. Remember we were named "the best game community" ? Now think who was that - new players or old players who dedicated years to this game? If you are no more interested in us - please let us know, so that we don't waste our time playing this game. Is your loki a dedicated scanner or used for running sites? If the latter I'm not sure you are the intended audience of the mods. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:00:00 -
[442] - Quote
Reading the last 22 pages....sooo many delicious tears Im glad CCP is shaking **** up i get tired of doing complex task over and over in the same functionality which is also time consuming. At least the changes are more streamlined now. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1814
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:01:00 -
[443] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:I think the removal of the 8th probe is a compensation of the scan-strength (etc) given by those modules. I doubt it. An 8th probe make virtually zero difference on scan result strength in the current system. They way I see it is whichever CCP dev was responsible for it was used to using 7 probes and knew a lot of people use 7 probes so went something like 'well, as astro no longer affects the number of probes i can launch, guess i'll just make it launch 7 at once since that's the optimal amount of probes to use. should make people happy'.
|
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:02:00 -
[444] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Is your loki a dedicated scanner or used for running sites? If the latter I'm not sure you are the intended audience of the mods.
You can check my KB for losses. Dedicated scanner-hunter able to catch and keep prey until the support arrives, which means dual-point+web and some ASB tanking (armor - really no for the loss of agility, deadly loss). Even those armor-tanked scanning hunters of wormholes would not have spare slots for those modules. Though, it can be one of that "T3 should be worse then specialized ships" things CCP likes lately. Well I don't (( |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
662
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:11:00 -
[445] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Is your loki a dedicated scanner or used for running sites? If the latter I'm not sure you are the intended audience of the mods.
You can check my KB for losses. Dedicated scanner-hunter able to catch and keep prey until the support arrives, which means dual-point+web and some ASB tanking (armor - really no for the loss of agility, deadly loss). Even those armor-tanked scanning hunters of wormholes would not have spare slots for those modules. Though, it can be one of that "T3 should be worse then specialized ships" things CCP likes lately. Well I don't (( Ok, you say dedicated but describe a dual function ship. So when given the choice between faster scanning and being able to hold targets I'd imagine the choice would be holding targets. That being the case the mods, as I suspected, are not targeted at you. As to your feelings about T3's. Should you decide a true single function T3 is something you want for scanning there is nothing preventing you from fitting the mods to regain your superiority. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:12:00 -
[446] - Quote
Exploration is entering a system and wondering if there is anything worthwhile to seek, dropping probes and taking the manual effort to actually determine what is there via skill and knowledge.
Exploration is seeking prey by using the directional scanner, locating the target, warping out of scan range, arranging probes and then dropping them on target ready to warp.
Exploration is developing the skills to probe effectively utilizing multiple probe types and developing your own scanning style.
etc.etc.etc.
Exploration is not a system-wide scan when I enter a system and see sigs all around me. Then click a buttan, move a box, click and get sigs.
If you want to have new players recognize there are other things out there then do that, but don't make it so simple that there is no depth other than to train skills.
There are so many other directions probing could go.
Improve it so you can actually see where ships are warping to. If I drop a probe in system, maybe I see a trajectory of where ships are headed so Intelligence of ship movement can be collected
Multiple probe types. Perhaps you're hunting a T3 and could use specialized probes that improve your scan strength vs this type of ship.
Probe interference. Probes that give false intelligence or lead someone into a trap.
This is what I want. Make it simple to get into, but once in, offer specilization. That will keep players hooked. There are many paths in Eve. Generate the interest, then develop those paths.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
662
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:17:00 -
[447] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Exploration is entering a system and wondering if there is anything worthwhile to seek, dropping probes and taking the manual effort to actually determine what is there via skill and knowledge.
Exploration is seeking prey by using the directional scanner, locating the target, warping out of scan range, arranging probes and then dropping them on target ready to warp.
Exploration is developing the skills to probe effectively utilizing multiple probe types and developing your own scanning style.
etc.etc.etc.
Exploration is not a system-wide scan when I enter a system and see sigs all around me. Then click a buttan, move a box, click and get sigs.
Oddly enough, I don't really see the difference between what the system scanner will do and using a single DSP currently does. Same for move box, click button as compared to shift-click move box, click button. |
Roel Yento
Black Rain Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:24:00 -
[448] - Quote
I use a deep space probe placed way out of scan range and out of range of other probes around the system to scan if new ship sigs pop up or new signatures. Doing this allows me to keep tabs in wormholes without others seeing my probes. With the removal of deep space probes you are making it so everyone and their mom will be able to see your probes out. What is wrong with having deep space probes in the game?
I normally use 1 dsp to cover system and then 7 core probes for scanning down the sigs, disable the dsp when needed. While i like many of the probe changes and am not opposed to the new system. My only issue is not having anything to cover extremely large ranges. If you can explain why dsp's are pointless then maybe i'd be fine with the idea. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:27:00 -
[449] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Oddly enough, I don't really see the difference between what the system scanner will do and using a single DSP currently does. Same for move box, click button as compared to shift-click move box, click button.
Yeah it isn't much different, except you had to train for it and actually use it if you wanted information. As for the move box, I was referring to dropping 7 probes with a click and moving the entire thing around.
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
980
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:28:00 -
[450] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:Exploration is entering a system and wondering if there is anything worthwhile to seek, dropping probes and taking the manual effort to actually determine what is there via skill and knowledge.
Exploration is seeking prey by using the directional scanner, locating the target, warping out of scan range, arranging probes and then dropping them on target ready to warp.
Exploration is developing the skills to probe effectively utilizing multiple probe types and developing your own scanning style.
etc.etc.etc.
Exploration is not a system-wide scan when I enter a system and see sigs all around me. Then click a buttan, move a box, click and get sigs.
Oddly enough, I don't really see the difference between what the system scanner will do and using a single DSP currently does. Dedication to the exploration way of life. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1390
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:31:00 -
[451] - Quote
Possibly covered, but:
The description of the Parity decryptors says that the modifier for the ME is 1. All the others have a + or -.
Was the change in the ME adjustment from 3 to 4 deliberate for the Process decryptors?
And did someone break the Data Interfaces, so they're now consumed during invention? (On TQ, they're not.) Because it sure looks like they are on SiSi Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
980
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:34:00 -
[452] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote: A great post on ways to improve upon PvP scanning.
Scanning could go in many new directions, as the poster above described a great way to improve PvP scanning. Exploration and PvE scanning could be improved as well, there is a good thread in F&I about new ways of escalation. That could be expanded upon with Relic and Data sites giving a possible location to a hidden pirate base, a expedition if you will. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:39:00 -
[453] - Quote
Roel Yento wrote:
I normally use 1 dsp to cover system and then 7 core probes for scanning down the sigs, disable the dsp when needed. While i like many of the probe changes and am not opposed to the new system. My only issue is not having anything to cover extremely large ranges. If you can explain why dsp's are pointless then maybe i'd be fine with the idea.
i do the same :1 dsp and 7 core. made totally sense for me using 8 probes. I think wh space will be now even safer than ever with theses scan changes coming
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
662
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:47:00 -
[454] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dedication to the exploration way of life. That seems to subjective to be actionable, unless the fundamental meaning is to make it tedious to the point of discouraging participation. I'd prefer that not to be the goal. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:53:00 -
[455] - Quote
So I experimented with this last night.
1 - It took me about 15 minutes to realise its meant to be used hands-off keyboard, and as soon as you mess with the probe sizes by right clicking in the UI, you ruin everything, and have to max size the probes again to fix it - in some ways this can get into near unfixable states, and will have new players stuck as a result, and we won't be able to explain to them what went wrong.
2 - it forgets 100% sigs, which is tiresome.
3 - the sweep formation has holes in it, and produces unreliable results, so there is -->>>>>> NO <<<<<<<-- time saving because of this system. ie I pop the sweep out, and then I have to sit there and hand adjust the sweep to reposition all the probes to actually contain the real positions of the celestials. This is as much work as putting together a standard box for pinpointing, because its not rote like building a pinpoint box. I went into a wormhole and then the really tiresome nature of this became very apparent.
4 - I detected no anomolies at all in half a dozen systems.
|
Zedah Zoid
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:58:00 -
[456] - Quote
Well, might as well add my two cents.
1) I don't like the way it launches 7 probes by default. The number to launch should be selectable. It's fine if you want to make 7 (or better yet, 8) the default.
2) I would like to see sigs removed from the UI overlay in WH space for obvious reasons. Keep the anoms on there because they are accessible with the onboard scanner today. Maybe the lore could be updated such that sigs in K-space appear on the UI overlay due to some assistance from the stargate network positioning functions or whatever. But in Wormholes it would be nice to still not know about sigs unless you scan for them with probes. At least in my opinion. Yes, it's a different game mechanice. WH space is a different game mechanic. Eve is hard. HTFU.
3) 8 probes would be nice. Is not game breaking to leave this out but see 1) above.
4) The auto-recall upon jumping should be configurable so you can disable it. There are use cases where leaving probes in a system while you are next door can result in fun.
5) While you're at it, a slider to select D-scan range would be awesome, and it should be in AU to match the UI overlay info. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:02:00 -
[457] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dedication to the exploration way of life. That seems to subjective to be actionable, unless the fundamental meaning is to make it tedious to the point of discouraging participation. I'd prefer that not to be the goal.
I'd prefer it not to be the goal as well. I don't think what I described need to be tedious. I do like the ability to launch multiple probes in pre-set patterns at the push of a button.
What I don't like is the simplified nature of what we're getting. 2 probe types, 2 formations that I don't currently use. The loss of an 8th probe which offered multiple different methods to scan, including 2 sigs at a time. I'm all for getting rid of tedium, but not at the expense of deeper gameplay. It takes skill to lay out 8 probes in the pattern I want with the probes I want. I'll concede it can be tedious to spend <30 seconds to setup your probes, but if you're going to take away something that required skill due to dedicating myself to learing how to actually lay them out at a decent speed then replace it with something else that requires skill, not just a click. |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
210
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:05:00 -
[458] - Quote
Zedah Zoid wrote:
5) While you're at it, a slider to select D-scan range would be awesome, and it should be in AU to match the UI overlay info.
So much this. The current UI inconsistency doesn't seem very 250th century at all and dare I say is immersion breaking for that reason. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
663
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:12:00 -
[459] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dedication to the exploration way of life. That seems to subjective to be actionable, unless the fundamental meaning is to make it tedious to the point of discouraging participation. I'd prefer that not to be the goal. I'd prefer it not to be the goal as well. I don't think what I described need to be tedious. I do like the ability to launch multiple probes in pre-set patterns at the push of a button. What I don't like is the simplified nature of what we're getting. 2 probe types, 2 formations that I don't currently use. The loss of an 8th probe which offered multiple different methods to scan, including 2 sigs at a time. I'm all for getting rid of tedium, but not at the expense of deeper gameplay. It takes skill to lay out 8 probes in the pattern I want with the probes I want. I'll concede it can be tedious to spend <30 seconds to setup your probes, but if you're going to take away something that required skill due to dedicating myself to learing how to actually lay them out at a decent speed then replace it with something else that requires skill, not just a click. To be honest I think the majority of this complaint could be resolved by simply not having presets and just allowing people to save their own formations. That and not mandating 7 probes. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:20:00 -
[460] - Quote
a slider for d-scan would be nice that automatically converts from km to au once its is >= 1 au
|
|
Ciba Lexlulu
United Evian Peace Corp
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:21:00 -
[461] - Quote
I was playing around with the new probing mechanic and trying to find Radar (new Data) and Magneto (new Relic) sites. Unfortunately only can find Relic sites. Unless something is broken, out of 4 Relic sites in Null and Low in Sisi, there are no 'cans' to be hacked/analyzed with the new Relic analyzer.
Has this been seeded in Sisi? |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:27:00 -
[462] - Quote
Please run this by a panel of selected players who have varying styles of probing.
Fleet scouts/punters, w-space residents, w-space PvPers, etc.
Don't just assume nobody here knows what they are talking about or they just aren't able to adapt. There are some really critically broken things in here. Never forget that a good prober is a profession onto itself (not a game-intended one, but a VERY valuable one for a given corporation). |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
158
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:29:00 -
[463] - Quote
As a matter of fact, they are turning exploration into mission running. Dumb and straightforward money grind. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:34:00 -
[464] - Quote
i'm little confused please correct me if i mistake something, they delate dsp, but give new Sensor Overlay Scan wich should work like dps, ofcorse it not work yet like dsp but ccp work on it? and they do this becouse they wish to make from scaning more simple thing, with out waiting for astrometics 5? or they not plan to improve this more and leave like it is rigth now, with hope there will be any riot? |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 03:09:00 -
[465] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote:i'm little confused please correct me if i mistake something, they delate dsp, but give new Sensor Overlay Scan wich should work like dps, ofcorse it not work yet like dsp but ccp work on it? and they do this becouse they wish to make from scaning more simple thing, with out waiting for astrometics 5? or they not plan to improve this more and leave it like is it rigth now, with hope there will be any riot?
To clear your confusion, they want to give ALL players equal footing in KNOWING how many IDs are in any system no matter how small or large the system is which replaces the DSP uses. However, you still need skills to scan faster. Yes, scanning is kind of fast for new players, but skilled players can do it even faster. The actual scan time for analysis is the same 5-10 seconds, the only thing that is making it faster is the better scan deviation and strength.
Everyone is reacting negatively to this new interface because it is COMPLETELY alien to how we think of EVE and sometimes that doesnt sit well with players. However, I think its a good change. Skills in EVE allow players to have an advantage over others, this is the essence of the game, but when that gap is too large...it needs fixed.
Although some players enjoy taking time to actually sit and scan, some of us (including me) would rather spend our time running the sites we scan rather then taking that whole time to scan. I don't want to spend 70% of my time scanning and 30% running sites. With the new change its more like 50-50 now and that allows players to run MORE sites in less time and thus make more money. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 03:24:00 -
[466] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
To clear your confusion, they want to give ALL players equal footing in KNOWING how many IDs are in any system no matter how small or large the system is which replaces the DSP uses. However, you still need skills to scan faster. Yes, scanning is kind of fast for new players, but skilled players can do it even faster. The actual scan time for analysis is the same 5-10 seconds, the only thing that is making it faster is the better scan deviation and strength.
Everyone is reacting negatively to this new interface because it is COMPLETELY alien to how we think of EVE and sometimes that doesnt sit well with players. However, I think its a good change. Skills in EVE allow players to have an advantage over others, this is the essence of the game, but when that gap is too large...it needs fixed.
Although some players enjoy taking time to actually sit and scan, some of us (including me) would rather spend our time running the sites we scan rather then taking that whole time to scan. I don't want to spend 70% of my time scanning and 30% running sites. With the new change its more like 50-50 now and that allows players to run MORE sites in less time and thus make more money.
This is completely untrue, well, except for the part where you say you can't scan. I believe that.
The interface is not alien. It is completely understandable and it's incredibly easy. It is one step from press buttan get sig since you might have to move the probe set. It takes less time to get a sig than to request one from an agent in station. That's what you really want anyway. |
iain
The.Fallen Unclaimed.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 03:40:00 -
[467] - Quote
I guess, as someone who just probes the odd anomoly or the odd ship, some of these changes are quite nice, the 8th probe is a bit of a pain tho, i like to leave one probe sitting on my fleet at min range/max strength to get a good 'lock' on my own people as they come in (to ignore).
Really tho, what I think gets me most is that this set of changes really undermines the new system - actually I'd go so far as to say the new system was always flawed but this improvement in the user interface really makes it more obvious.
Why not: Remove this whole 'multiple probe' thing entirely, make it a single spherical probe that just returns data (using deviation etc) for everything inside it.
It just simplifies the edges off the process thats already in place, the "trick" to scanning under the new system is just to keep your objective inside the central overlap area and narrow down, rather like the old (currently live) system but easier with the new formations and controls.... but basically that internal area where they overlap is the focus. why not just replace that with a single sphere rather than have all this irrelevant glitter and complexity.
Then, make it so two of these things can be launched at once with max skills, thats the 'win' move, replicating the old system of 'pairs of 4'.
Reducing the scan probe 'set' down to a single probe will significantly simplify the code for controlling the probes - lets face it, people are really going to want the '2 sets of 4' thing for multiprobing, but thats going to require multiple association sets of the probes and thats just tedious work. Replace instead with '2 sets of 1 probe' and there's no association or complexity to anything, code wise or interface wise. just a box with a sphere around it that people move and resize. like the formation system, except less cluttered.
This would simplify the 'scan' algorithm substantially, which will in future be spending 99% of its processing time running the same "relative positions" of the probes (i.e. the angles between their intersections and distance from the center relative to the area scanned are fairly constant if you stick to using formations, thats the point of the formation.) if you replace it with a single spherical scan, most of this maths goes down the drain, its either in the sphere, or it isn't. after that you just have to throw the deviation and scan strength algorithms through a few tweaks to work it under the new system.
I dunno, I always thought the current scanning system (the one on live at the moment) was pretty "cool", tho having used it, its pretty pointless scanning 'smart' ships (i.e. anyone who moves) and pretty tedious for scanning anything (half the reason i quit easy WH space, so bored of scanning), but still the "idea" was cool. But when I look at it from this perspective with the formations and the fact it might as well just be a scanning sphere, I'm forced to wonder if the system was ever actually all that great, it's just become really obvious how much of a mindless micromanagement chore it was, which the UI now simplifies, to the point where ... why not just finish what you started here.
And yes, for everyone with their probe tricks, I appreciate they continue to be broken under this system. The deep space probe trick was probably not intentional in the first place (or it would have been made clearer and simpler)...
I think however, regardless of what you do with your probes, be it simple 4-pyramid scanning of things or some weird combination of probe types and ranges, the present test server system is the worst of both worlds - either we revert back to what we had and its increased power at increased micromanagement/complexity, or it needs to evolve forwards, either to some very complicated "association sets" thing, or just to accept that ultimately this *is* a trivialisation of scanning micro and to just complete the job entirely. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 03:43:00 -
[468] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Octoven wrote:
To clear your confusion, they want to give ALL players equal footing in KNOWING how many IDs are in any system no matter how small or large the system is which replaces the DSP uses. However, you still need skills to scan faster. Yes, scanning is kind of fast for new players, but skilled players can do it even faster. The actual scan time for analysis is the same 5-10 seconds, the only thing that is making it faster is the better scan deviation and strength.
Everyone is reacting negatively to this new interface because it is COMPLETELY alien to how we think of EVE and sometimes that doesnt sit well with players. However, I think its a good change. Skills in EVE allow players to have an advantage over others, this is the essence of the game, but when that gap is too large...it needs fixed.
Although some players enjoy taking time to actually sit and scan, some of us (including me) would rather spend our time running the sites we scan rather then taking that whole time to scan. I don't want to spend 70% of my time scanning and 30% running sites. With the new change its more like 50-50 now and that allows players to run MORE sites in less time and thus make more money.
This is completely untrue, well, except for the part where you say you can't scan. I believe that. The interface is not alien. It is completely understandable and it's incredibly easy. It is one step from press buttan get sig since you might have to move the probe set. It takes less time to get a sig than to request one from an agent in station. That's what you really want anyway.
No...but I don't want to spend valuable skill time to train lvl 5 in everything in order to scan anything half decently either. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 03:56:00 -
[469] - Quote
Octoven wrote: No...but I don't want to spend valuable skill time to train lvl 5 in everything in order to scan anything half decently either.
You don't need level 5 to scan anything decently. That's possible because I learned about probe placement and how to read my scans by actually working at learning how to do it.
The way things are now on SISI I could probably scan out a COSMOS drug site with a noob character.
Things are not looking better if all I need to do is press a button and 7 probes pop out in optimal arrangement and just drag it over to the sig.
The earlier comments about making it a single sphere makes a lot of sense if we're going this way. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 04:19:00 -
[470] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Octoven wrote: No...but I don't want to spend valuable skill time to train lvl 5 in everything in order to scan anything half decently either.
You don't need level 5 to scan anything decently. That's possible because I learned about probe placement and how to read my scans by actually working at learning how to do it. The way things are now on SISI I could probably scan out a COSMOS drug site with a noob character. Things are not looking better if all I need to do is press a button and 7 probes pop out in optimal arrangement and just drag it over to the sig. The earlier comments about making it a single sphere makes a lot of sense if we're going this way.
Yeah well the problem with the way it is now is unless you KNOW how to do it...you have to go look up external sources on HOW to do it and that is not how a game should function. You shouldnt need to read a whole web page or watch a 20 minute video to learn how to use such a basic function of the game. If that means making scanning a bit easier so you don't need this rediculous process then so be it. |
|
Akira Menoko
Dark Matter Fleet Yards Care Factor
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 04:46:00 -
[471] - Quote
I tried out some probe scanning briefly and had a few issues:
- In the probe "spread" formation, there are some coverage gaps in between the probes. I'd love it if the default formation for the probes was brought in a bit so that even though there is some overlap in the probes, there is no gaps in the coverage.
- I tried using a relic analyzer in a magnetometric site and it didn't work, saying it couldn't be used on a spew container. But I could just open it like a regular can though.
I definitely, without a doubt, would love to see the spread formation not have any coverage gaps in it. The pinpoint formation looks great and I rather like it. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
984
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 04:48:00 -
[472] - Quote
Currently (on my main) I am running around scanning in a Vexor, I have astrometrics 4, support skills to 3, my ship is fit with a sisters probe launcher and 1 T1 Medium Gravity Capacitor Upgrade. With this setup I was able to grab a 2.5% signal in about 3~5 min. If I were to be using my scanning alt with the new changes it would have taken me less than 1 min to pinpoint that singal. The Odyssey system makes scanning way to easy and destroyes it place as a full profession. Leave our skills alone. Give us back our DSP. Leave us with 8 porbes. Remove non 100% signals form the Sensor Overlay. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 05:36:00 -
[473] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Currently (on my main) I am running around scanning in a Vexor, I have astrometrics 4, support skills to 3, my ship is fit with a sisters probe launcher and 1 T1 Medium Gravity Capacitor Upgrade. With this setup I was able to grab a 2.5% signal in about 3~5 min. If I were to be using my scanning alt with the new changes it would have taken me less than 1 min to pinpoint that singal. The Odyssey system makes scanning way to easy and destroyes it place as a full profession. Leave our skills alone. Give us back our DSP. Leave us with 8 porbes. Remove non 100% signals form the Sensor Overlay.
I can understand the fast scanning aspect and wouldnt be bothered if they toned that down some, also I agree there needs to be a slider bar from 1-8 probes to choose to launcher or the ability to simply launch one at a time like now (if you dont hit the probe formation that launches 7 at a time).
However the other two suggestions I don't agree with. Just about every person I have seen use DSPs have done so with the intent on this http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html which to me is utter bull ****. That is not exploration, thats using a guide and picking out what you want and is no better then missioning. Im sure there are those who do not use DSPs and use them in the way they should be which is to have a extremely large cover area to get all the signals. However, I think having that guide and those probes working in tandem is just detrimental to the idea of exploration.
Essentially most people who use DSPs are only seeking 2 things either a 4/10 or a 3/10. If they get anything else on a diff signal band they just warp to the next system. At least removing DSPs will minimize this and Im glad, those probes really have pissed me off. As for the removal of non 100% signals as you call it (those are called cosmic signatures btw), I think those should stay on the 3D skybox. I like being able to see in space if there are any signatures to scan down before I bother wasting time to launch probes. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
984
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 05:45:00 -
[474] - Quote
Octoven wrote:I like being able to see in space if there are any signatures to scan down before I bother wasting time to launch probes.
This is the exact reason that they should be removed, that is not exploring that borders the realm of farming sites. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2736
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 06:01:00 -
[475] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Octoven wrote:I like being able to see in space if there are any signatures to scan down before I bother wasting time to launch probes.
This is the exact reason that they should be removed, that is not exploring that borders the realm of farming sites.
Now you can do the same without DSP probes, everyone.
DSPs had other uses, especially in wormholes. New functionality does not replace those.
CCP: Dscan interface needs improvements. Scanning is fine. Don't ruin scanning and exploration.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
88
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 06:41:00 -
[476] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Octoven wrote:I like being able to see in space if there are any signatures to scan down before I bother wasting time to launch probes.
This is the exact reason that they should be removed, that is not exploring that borders the realm of farming sites.
It also bears mention that "not wasting time" is the reason behind dropping a DSP, which Octoven says is "gamey" and part of behavior he does not like.
However, I must disagree that being able to see what's in space "borders on farming sites". It's the same thing you do by dropping a DSP, except now it's done for you (whether you like it or not, which is not cool btw CCP) and presented in a fancy new way that happens much faster than the DSP scan sweep ever did.
I'm a fan of the new scan sweep, myself. I'm not a fan of being unable to turn off the auto-sweep and run the scanner on-demand like with the current system scanner on TQ, but in my opinion it beats dropping a DSP simply to see what (if anything) is around. |
AngelFood
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 07:56:00 -
[477] - Quote
Complete catastrophe. |
inuminguart
Techno Hive
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 07:57:00 -
[478] - Quote
Hi. Please return "Gravimetrics" from anomaly class to signature class entity. In 0.0 players has local, wich allow be safe. But in WH no (really no) safe way to mine ore sites. Now we allarmed when see comabat probes on podscan. But in Odyssey miners in WH will be die die die die and die. Of cause before corp mine in WH we do all prerequisite for his - close static, rescan system for other workholes, dont init new static, our combat for search new signatures. But instantly opened K162 and T3 gang at enter WH + professional clocked tacklers not leave any chanche to survive. Only new combat probes in podscan signal to rewarp in force field. In Odyssey our miners simply instantly die. This really important stuff.
PS sorry for english |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
276
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:15:00 -
[479] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:I doubt it. An 8th probe make virtually zero difference on scan result strength in the current system.
Nope. I know of at least 2 systems where 8-probe scanning is considerably superior to 7-probe scanning. There's likely more. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:23:00 -
[480] - Quote
Bill Orland wrote:Kcolorr wrote:Bill Orland wrote:Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:For PvP, some of these changes are.... annoying to say at least. Being unable to sort results by distance is a huge blow to Bomber Wings, and other Combat Probers. I guess sniping ships will benefit greatly from this. The table we have on TQ might not look pretty, but it's functional. The one on SiSi, not so much. For those of us who are relatively new to scanning, can someone please briefly explain why sorting by distance when combat probing matters so much? You have a friendly fleet of oracles fighting a hostile fleet of oracles, there is also a third fleet of oracles inside a pos nearby that's within combat scan range. Distance is the only way to decipher which fleet you're going to be warping to, distance is the only way to decide which signatures you ignore and which you do not. I can only imagine the pain of the oracle FCs as they attempt to warp at each other just to find out that the probe results they're using are their own fleet and nothing happens because they cannot tell the distance. Thank you very much for the response. I've typically used dscanning and proximity to celestials as landmarks for this purpose, but it seems like this may be faster? both are used in completion or in different situations, but both are needed.
range on scan result is mandatory, any competent FC wil tell you that, especially when FCing a alphanado / oracle fleet |
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:25:00 -
[481] - Quote
inuminguart wrote:Hi. Please return "Gravimetrics" from anomaly class to signature class entity. In 0.0 players has local, wich allow be safe. But in WH no (really no) safe way to mine ore sites. Now we allarmed when see comabat probes on podscan. But in Odyssey miners in WH will be die die die die and die. Of cause before corp mine in WH we do all prerequisite for his - close static, rescan system for other workholes, dont init new static, our combat for search new signatures. But instantly opened K162 and T3 gang at enter WH + professional clocked tacklers not leave any chanche to survive. Only new combat probes in podscan signal to rewarp in force field. In Odyssey our miners simply instantly die. This really important stuff.
PS sorry for english
As long as you have a dedicated scanner who can hit analyze every few seconds with combats out to see new ships, you have your d-scan up, AND you watch for new anomalies...there really is no need to keep the sites in the signatures category. Hell, if you set your ship to use the auto-sensor sweep you can even see new wormholes pop up when they do in realtime. You have plenty of tools to use to make mining in a wh as safe as you can, as long as youre doing it right you shouldnt die die die. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:26:00 -
[482] - Quote
inuminguart wrote:Hi. Please return "Gravimetrics" from anomaly class to signature class entity. In 0.0 players has local, wich allow be safe. But in WH no (really no) safe way to mine ore sites. Now we allarmed when see comabat probes on podscan. But in Odyssey miners in WH will be die die die die and die. Of cause before corp mine in WH we do all prerequisite for his - close static, rescan system for other workholes, dont init new static, our combat for search new signatures. But instantly opened K162 and T3 gang at enter WH + professional clocked tacklers not leave any chanche to survive. Only new combat probes in podscan signal to rewarp in force field. In Odyssey our miners simply instantly die. This really important stuff.
PS sorry for english situation awarness
position combat probes in system and eliminate known ships / sigs and use em as a dscan. living in a WH, you should already be using this anyway, if not learn to wh |
Dimakseer Haginen
Nether Guards
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:27:00 -
[483] - Quote
inuminguart wrote:Hi. Please return "Gravimetrics" from anomaly class to signature class entity. In 0.0 players has local, wich allow be safe. But in WH no (really no) safe way to mine ore sites. Now we allarmed when see comabat probes on podscan. But in Odyssey miners in WH will be die die die die and die. Of cause before corp mine in WH we do all prerequisite for his - close static, rescan system for other workholes, dont init new static, our combat for search new signatures. But instantly opened K162 and T3 gang at enter WH + professional clocked tacklers not leave any chanche to survive. Only new combat probes in podscan signal to rewarp in force field. In Odyssey our miners simply instantly die. This really important stuff.
PS sorry for english
Besides that, I would like to note that by allowing to scan "Gravimetric" with help of the ship-embedded scanner, the developers simply transforms "Gravimetric" to a kind of an "Asteroid Belt" and completely destroys the idea of "Gravimetric" exploration. |
Einar Matveinen
Shimai of New Eden
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:41:00 -
[484] - Quote
No mini-games in data and relic sites in WH space when accessing cans?. Maybe wh space needs a bit of love... |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
380
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:41:00 -
[485] - Quote
Having spend a few hours yesterday to try, deeper, the new scanning system, its clearly time-saving. I don't think its a bad thing, since when you've, like me, spend contless hours scanning for the last three years of your life, you're not time-limited by your skill anymore, just by the way this gameplay works.
To those who think that almost skipping the probe-placement part is dumbing the game down and bad for the players, I will answer that if you were thinking that our personal skill was displayed in probe-placement (a very consensual thing with only one or two widely-used patterns) then you've got it all wrong. Your experience in scanning shows with the interpretation of the results you get, and how you react to them. Not your dexterity to move probes in a perfect diamond formation.
However the current new system could be slightly improved : 1- Some colors of the bar filling to represent your % of signature strenght are clearly too close to the white color of the text before them. We need more contrast !
2- There are a few points overlapping eachothers with my feedback conserning the discovery scanner, like the possibility to have the results of the discovery scanner displayed in a list in the scanning window, and in the solar system map.
3- Why not allowing us to put 8 probes in space, and to save a custom pattern ? We clic one button, the current position of our probes in space is saved. Then when we clic on another button in another system, probes are instantly launched and deployed in space following this pattern, with the gravity center on our ship.
Edit : Given the current state of the minigame, even if I agree that WH should need some love as well, I'm not sure if its a good idea ^_^. Looks like a crap minigame to me : I lost every time I tried, no skill to modify the difficulty, entierly random, the interface of the minigame has respons-delay sometimes (depending on the server probably)... No, really, in its current state its crap. :D G££ <= Me |
Ravenstain
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:43:00 -
[486] - Quote
Rhavas wrote:Anariasis wrote:My little list: - Launching 7 probes at once is fine. But only if you want to. I would like the option of launching 1 or 7 (or why not 8?) - Give us back our Deep Space Probes! They are great! They cut down the time to scan for WH exits by A LOT. Not by the range only, but by the signature strength. As a game designer you should know that, but to clarify: http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html?str=12.3&f=5&sec=3- Please stop making us all equally good/bad at this game. Currently you need to know how to use a DSP, make a good probing setup, launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy etc.. After Odyssey we all just hit a button and then it's only skillpoints. Bah!- The spread probe formation is not overlapping, which is stupid. No one with an idea what he's doing is scanning like that. Just make them be overlapping right when you launch them. - Alt+Shift to move probes together/further apart was not easy to discover. Also Alt+Shift happens to CHANGE KEYBOARD LAYOUT FROM GERMAN TO ENGLISH! HOLY ****, THAT'S ANNOYING! (Win8 64bit UK if that helps) - If you set the screen to keep showing the sigs in space, the scanner continues to swirl around you as well - that drives you mad in about 2 minutes. - Why do probes manage to instantly return when you leave system but take time when you recall them? That's just broken game mechanics. Also, if you happen to forget your probes and notice 10 jumps out etc., then you made a mistake and deserve to have lost them. This is EVE, not WoW. - Sometimes it's nice to leave your probes behind, for example: you find a high/low/0.0-exit of your WH, jump in, have a look where it is, jump back , reconnect and continue scanning. Great list, +1 to all items.
QFT!! |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
380
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 08:46:00 -
[487] - Quote
Ravenstain wrote:Rhavas wrote:Anariasis wrote:My little list: - Launching 7 probes at once is fine. But only if you want to. I would like the option of launching 1 or 7 (or why not 8?) - Give us back our Deep Space Probes! They are great! They cut down the time to scan for WH exits by A LOT. Not by the range only, but by the signature strength. As a game designer you should know that, but to clarify: http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html?str=12.3&f=5&sec=3- Please stop making us all equally good/bad at this game. Currently you need to know how to use a DSP, make a good probing setup, launch probes out of d-scan range of the enemy etc.. After Odyssey we all just hit a button and then it's only skillpoints. Bah!- The spread probe formation is not overlapping, which is stupid. No one with an idea what he's doing is scanning like that. Just make them be overlapping right when you launch them. - Alt+Shift to move probes together/further apart was not easy to discover. Also Alt+Shift happens to CHANGE KEYBOARD LAYOUT FROM GERMAN TO ENGLISH! HOLY ****, THAT'S ANNOYING! (Win8 64bit UK if that helps) - If you set the screen to keep showing the sigs in space, the scanner continues to swirl around you as well - that drives you mad in about 2 minutes. - Why do probes manage to instantly return when you leave system but take time when you recall them? That's just broken game mechanics. Also, if you happen to forget your probes and notice 10 jumps out etc., then you made a mistake and deserve to have lost them. This is EVE, not WoW. - Sometimes it's nice to leave your probes behind, for example: you find a high/low/0.0-exit of your WH, jump in, have a look where it is, jump back , reconnect and continue scanning. Great list, +1 to all items. QFT!!
I took me some time to discover, but if you grab the edge of the range-shere of any probe (without MAJ, ALT, or anything), and make it grow or shrink, it adjusts the range AND the position of every probe. So actually you don't need to hold down MAJ, hold down left clic on an arrow, release maj, hold down alt and move blindly.
G££ <= Me |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
77
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:01:00 -
[488] - Quote
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Hello future Odyssey capsuleers!
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
What happens to those people that have already trained these skills? Will they get compensated some skill points back? And in regards to the new modules, will this make the virtue implant set pointless? Right now, it is worth the money to scan down "unscannable t3s" (granted, there aren't many of them left). There will be no compensation for those skill changes. [...] The new skill changes will make Astrometric Acquisition and Astrometric Pinpointing 2.5x, although I imagine this rounds up to 3x multiplier. [...].
Would you please not confuse per level MODIFIERS and rank MULTIPLIERS ?
Your confusion is spreading to others already.
That said, the change IS somewhat infuriating because the reason for the change to the astrometics skill was, that the ONLY solution for a predefined formation was using 7 probes, thus obsoleting the old astrometics skill. Seriously guys, what's hard about saving 1-7 vector values (relative position of each additional probe towards the first probe launched) in a variable for each saved setup ?
|
Raxlaa
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:08:00 -
[489] - Quote
Akira Menoko wrote:I tried out some probe scanning briefly and had a few issues:
- In the probe "spread" formation, there are some coverage gaps in between the probes. I'd love it if the default formation for the probes was brought in a bit so that even though there is some overlap in the probes, there is no gaps in the coverage.
- I tried using a relic analyzer in a magnetometric site and it didn't work, saying it couldn't be used on a spew container. But I could just open it like a regular can though.
I definitely, without a doubt, would love to see the spread formation not have any coverage gaps in it. The pinpoint formation looks great and I rather like it.
gaps in the spread formation; two thoughts. select all your probes in the list and r-click set-range to 32AU before scan? or, drag resize your probes so they overlap and then scan?
So, you could grab a fast scan with the small possibilty that some ships are sat in the 'gaps', (would be a nice place to try and get bookmarks), or with 2 seconds delay for the resizing, you can grab a scan that covers all the gaps. |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:10:00 -
[490] - Quote
Two step wrote:CSM was not consulted about these changes. This is the single most horrible thing in the whole threadnaught. Why on earth werent our CSM representatives consulted about these scanning changes? Isnt that exactly what they are for? W-Space Realtor |
|
Space Wanderer
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:16:00 -
[491] - Quote
TL;DR: I usually try to be very balanced when expressing opinions, and I am posting this after I actually tested most of the stuff, but this time my overall opinion of the changes is: are you out of your silly mind?!?
Ok, now for some more balanced and lengthy feedback:
The good
- While removal of DSPs may seem as a problem, some people may have not noticed that the target signature strength is displayed in the Discovery scanner. Basically the discovery scanner acts as a single DSP for sites. Sorry St. Mio, you are not off the hook yet. :)
- Improvements to UI are good (including formations).
And this is about all the good things I can say...
The bad (here things get hairy....)
- 8 probes.... How could you even conceive to remove them when they make the difference between scanning a single spot and scanning two??? If this is not dumbing down scanning and removing player skill from it I don't know what is...
- The new scanning modules. Not much to say about the acquisition and strength modules for the moment, but about the pinpointing modules, again... what were you thinking?!? With full skills you already could (and still can, actually even better) already skip from 1 AU to 0.25AU without losing the signal. Now, with the T2 modules that reduce deviation by 40% each (!!!) and full skills, I am fairly confident that qith two of suce modules you could skip from 4AU to 0.25AU without losing the contact in most cases (this assumes that the stacking penalty of those modules act like the stacking penalty of any other module). As soon as I manage to craft some t2 version i'll test it first hand, but their stats speak very clearly. I don't know where do you get the courage to say you are not dumbing down the system...
- The minigame of the relic site (don't know about the data) seem to be heavily bugged. I find a datacore, but when clicking on it everything blocks and I am unable to do anything from there, any further click on the minigame simply won't have any effect and I willbe forced toclose the minigame window.
- I found no way to: (1) decide the default formation when launching probes; (2) save my own formations; (3) decide the default number of probes to be launched when I click on the probe launcher. Perhaps just wasn't able to find the proper commands, but if those options are not available we really have (another) problem....
Observations
- Site signatures sizes have been changed, at least some of them. Some of them are certainly smaller than they used to be. I am pretty sure that I found a 1 (it was a relic site), while the smallest that were around before were a 1.25.
- All the above info rely on the assumption that the scanning formula is not changed. From some preliminary observations it seems it has not changed but I'll make sure of it this evening.
- I am not saying whether the virtue implants have been made useless or not until I am able to test whether the cap on ship signature size has been removed or not.
|
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
580
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:40:00 -
[492] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:Basically the discovery scanner acts as a single DSP for sites.
yes, but NOT FOR PVP |
MrSnooze
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:51:00 -
[493] - Quote
sorry ccp but those changes are nice when you read it first but trying them hurts a lot. (not to forget facepalming)
it just took me 5 times longer to hunt down a sig on sisi than it takes me on singularity right now. the issue with pinpoint formation is nice but !!! why do i have to do a scan in the disred deviation before i can set them to pinpoint again. just add the alt funktion or make them pinpoint automatically when i reduce scan range but right now i have to do 8 au scan ... reposition probes, hit scan then scale them down and hit scan again ... so it takes mit at least 2 -3 times longer than before when i just moved them at the red dot scaled them down with alt and hit scan ..... there is no improvement at all in those changes so far regarding scanning down a system (0.0 or wspace ones).
James Arget for CSM 8!
http://csm.fcftw.org
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:56:00 -
[494] - Quote
Don't auto recall probes. Sometimes the best way to catch somebody is to leave your probes in formation far outside system ... and log off or jump to another system
Wait a while, login/return , reconnect to probes and scan.
As your Customers - we thank you - CCP. [1/17/2013 11:21:16 AM] seleene_ge: I don't even understand why CCP has a forum. No one at CCP reads it. <---- True Story. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1225
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:01:00 -
[495] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:Sorry St. Mio, you are not off the hook yet. :) >:( |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2739
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:06:00 -
[496] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Don't auto recall probes. Sometimes the best way to catch somebody is to leave your probes in formation far outside system ... and log off or jump to another system
Wait a while, login/return , reconnect to probes and scan.
This, why on earth should they auto return to the bay, there is even a popup dialog warning if you leave them behind. People leave them behind on purpose for various reasons.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:11:00 -
[497] - Quote
Roime wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Don't auto recall probes. Sometimes the best way to catch somebody is to leave your probes in formation far outside system ... and log off or jump to another system
Wait a while, login/return , reconnect to probes and scan.
This, why on earth should they auto return to the bay, there is even a popup dialog warning if you leave them behind. People leave them behind on purpose for various reasons. +1000 |
Morpho Aurora
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:29:00 -
[498] - Quote
In halving the SP of exploration skills, presumably people that have already committed to those skills will see their SP refunded and not just get the shaft? |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:35:00 -
[499] - Quote
The Ruined Guristas Temple Site (Relic) seems to be bugged - you can probe it down, but when you warp to the hit, you land in empty space with no dungeon or loot cans. At the moment, there are two of these seemingly-defective sites in L-TS8S in Pure Blind. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1408
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:35:00 -
[500] - Quote
Axloth Okiah wrote:Two step wrote:CSM was not consulted about these changes. This is the single most horrible thing in the whole threadnaught. Why on earth werent our CSM representatives consulted about these scanning changes? Isnt that exactly what they are for?
Because the CSM has been and will always be a non factor when it comes to development choices. Improving NPE |
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:40:00 -
[501] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:Octoven wrote: No...but I don't want to spend valuable skill time to train lvl 5 in everything in order to scan anything half decently either.
You don't need level 5 to scan anything decently. That's possible because I learned about probe placement and how to read my scans by actually working at learning how to do it. The way things are now on SISI I could probably scan out a COSMOS drug site with a noob character. Things are not looking better if all I need to do is press a button and 7 probes pop out in optimal arrangement and just drag it over to the sig. The earlier comments about making it a single sphere makes a lot of sense if we're going this way. Yeah well the problem with the way it is now is unless you KNOW how to do it...you have to go look up external sources on HOW to do it and that is not how a game should function. You shouldnt need to read a whole web page or watch a 20 minute video to learn how to use such a basic function of the game. If that means making scanning a bit easier so you don't need this rediculous process then so be it.
Actually as the changes stand, you will never learn how to place probes. It is already done for you. Eve is a complex game, so sometimes you do need to seek outside resources (corp mates, web sites, wiki, etc.) to understand things. It was an aspect of the game I was interested in so I developed my skills in exploration. That makes me a damn good prober, but not as good at PvP.
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:45:00 -
[502] - Quote
Morpho Aurora wrote:In halving the SP of exploration skills, presumably people that have already committed to those skills will see their SP refunded and not just get the shaft?
What are you talking about? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Garan Nardieu
Moira. Villore Accords
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:49:00 -
[503] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Axloth Okiah wrote:Two step wrote:CSM was not consulted about these changes. This is the single most horrible thing in the whole threadnaught. Why on earth werent our CSM representatives consulted about these scanning changes? Isnt that exactly what they are for? Because the CSM has been and will always be a non factor when it comes to development choices. I find it interesting that a CSM member read about some of the changes to be implemented on TMC. |
Capqu
Love Squad
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:58:00 -
[504] - Quote
removing distance from scan results can't be intentional? how the hell are you supposed to combat probe effectively in fleets now?
i hate all these changes, just dumbing down the game. look how well that worked for other mmos... http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
ghost100 Tian
Kanium
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:09:00 -
[505] - Quote
i only just started testing the new scanning screen but the first thing i found is that once you scan a sig to 100% and you put the probes back at long range the 100% signal is back down
in the old system once you got a 100% signal it stayed at 100% in the list
is that something that is planned to change ? as the old system is rather useful :) |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:14:00 -
[506] - Quote
ghost100 Tian wrote:i only just started testing the new scanning screen but the first thing i found is that once you scan a sig to 100% and you put the probes back at long range the 100% signal is back down
in the old system once you got a 100% signal it stayed at 100% in the list
is that something that is planned to change ? as the old system is rather useful :)
That was already confirmed as a bug. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:15:00 -
[507] - Quote
Dimakseer Haginen wrote:inuminguart wrote:Hi. Please return "Gravimetrics" from anomaly class to signature class entity. In 0.0 players has local, wich allow be safe. But in WH no (really no) safe way to mine ore sites. Now we allarmed when see comabat probes on podscan. But in Odyssey miners in WH will be die die die die and die. Of cause before corp mine in WH we do all prerequisite for his - close static, rescan system for other workholes, dont init new static, our combat for search new signatures. But instantly opened K162 and T3 gang at enter WH + professional clocked tacklers not leave any chanche to survive. Only new combat probes in podscan signal to rewarp in force field. In Odyssey our miners simply instantly die. This really important stuff.
PS sorry for english Besides that, I would like to note that by allowing to scan "Gravimetric" with help of the ship-embedded scanner, the developers simply transforms "Gravimetric" to a kind of an "Asteroid Belt" and completely destroys the idea of "Gravimetric" exploration.
Finding a hidden belt to mine is not exploring...thats just mining and making it harder for people to find you. Scanning down sites that you can run right then and there instead of taking days IS though. |
Jason Itiner
Defensive Parameter The Mandalorians
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:21:00 -
[508] - Quote
Will we have the ability to save custom probe formations? And will I really need seven probes in my launcher, even if I only use five to scan? If so, why not change individual probes into packages of seven, at seven times the price? |
Garan Nardieu
Moira. Villore Accords
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:35:00 -
[509] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Dimakseer Haginen wrote: Besides that, I would like to note that by allowing to scan "Gravimetric" with help of the ship-embedded scanner, the developers simply transforms "Gravimetric" to a kind of an "Asteroid Belt" and completely destroys the idea of "Gravimetric" exploration.
Finding a hidden belt to mine is not exploring...thats just mining and making it harder for people to find you. Scanning down sites that you can run right then and there instead of taking days IS though. According to this logic, finding hidden magneto sites is not exploring either. Its just salvaging while making people harder to find you. Finding DED plexes is not probing. Its just a form of mission running while making people harder to find you. You fill the rest... Sorry, but if exploration was imagined as kind of finding hidden treasures game, then grav sites fitted nicely in that frame, with higher grade ores spawning inside. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with some, minimum effort being required from people to find and kill miners in low security space, whereas this new system removes even that. And, let's get that straight too, I'm not a miner, I'm the guy that probes and kills them.
Jason Itiner wrote:Will we have the ability to save custom probe formations? And will I really need seven probes in my launcher, even if I only use five to scan? If so, why not change individual probes into packages of seven, at seven times the price? You'll find all answers if you read the thread. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
303
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:40:00 -
[510] - Quote
Morpho Aurora wrote:In halving the SP of exploration skills, presumably people that have already committed to those skills will see their SP refunded and not just get the shaft? They aren't halving the SP of exploration skills. Seriously, were do people get this information from. |
|
Space Wanderer
36
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:55:00 -
[511] - Quote
St Mio wrote:Space Wanderer wrote:Sorry St. Mio, you are not off the hook yet. :) >:(
It will be easier for you now, however. No fancy calculation getting the scan strength as input, the signature size seems to be given directly. |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:02:00 -
[512] - Quote
I havent personally tried out the new system, but from reading here one could get the impression, that CCP thinks the loot from exploration is too expensive.
I am concerned about profession sites not having rats (would this be true for wspace, too?) - if any frigate could go to nullsec, find a radar/mag, do a little minigame and get juicy stuff - prices of decryptors/salvage are gonna drop.
Why show those people that don't carry probes the signatures via onboard scanner? I don't get that, really.
If only 7 probes are 'allowed', why not make bundles or somesuch thing.
Only 'approved' probe formations?
The PVP aspects are strange, too, although you could argue that combat probing has become too easy over time.
[edit]WTB analyze shortcut [/edit] |
Hellynx84
Austudy 10110001100111101000
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:14:00 -
[513] - Quote
Just played around on sisi. Im quite happy with whats been implemented. Only 2 things that I would say need looking into are:
100% scan results not staying locked in. ( Think I read somewhere this is a bug) Having to reselect all the probes whenever you want to resize scan radius. (Hopefully this goes back to the old way of Probes all staying selected)
Apart from those, I think it has been put together very well. Took me all of 5 - 10 minutes to get comfortable with the new system. I live in a wormhole, and dont think this is going to impact my scanning at all, and may even infact speed it up a little. Hermit in a Hole "I swear im not paranoid" http://holeyhermit.blogspot.com.au/ |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1226
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:18:00 -
[514] - Quote
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:[edit]WTB analyze shortcut [/edit] GÖÑ |
Slaktoid
Aperture Harmonics K162
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:23:00 -
[515] - Quote
Repost from the general thread, and some more comments:
Scanning system pros and cons:
Pros: Easy to use/understand for newbie probers. Sufficient for entry level scanners.
Cons: Not sophisticated enough for wormhole people/people who scan a lot. No programmable probe formations (Give us the tools to decide. Do not decide whats best for us, you don't know!). Tool tips are gone. Cannot easily center on probes. 7 probes are not enough for wormhole dwellers who are maybe scanning three digit number of sigs in a day. The "Bracket" icons in space are a cool idea, but you cannot interact with them in the usual manner (right click align/warp to x/broadcast etc). This needs to be worked on. And while you're at it, can we please get normal bookmark brackets/icons in space (and even on overview). Thanks =)
To clarify why 7 probes is not enough: When you scan a lot (wh-chains for example), the signature you're scanning isn't the important one, it's the next one you intend to scan after you're done with the one you're currently scanning. 4 probes in 8.0 au box formation will show you the nearby signatures, and 4 probes in 2.0 au box formation will identify all signatures (with good skills/rigs etc). So you can quickly identify ie 20 signatures in a matter of minutes, and only fully scan down the ones you are interested in (wormholes). The quicker you scan down chains, the quicker you can find some potential pew-pew.
I'll come back with more if I feel something is overlooked.
Keep on working guys. You got lots of good stuff in there, even though we tend to focus on the negative, you're doing great.
Edit: The new system is noobfriendly and easy, just slower than what I normally do. Faster when your gonna scan 2 sigs down to 100%, but slower when you wanna scan 100 signatures to make a wh-chain.
I have also tested all types of probe formations and number of probes, something I'm sure everyone who have lived in wormspace for 4+ years, and have scanned tens of thousands of signatures, have done.
It's not about being good or bad, it's about lacking options. Being forced to do something a certain way. To have ones choice taken away. That's whats we object to. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:54:00 -
[516] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Octoven wrote:I like being able to see in space if there are any signatures to scan down before I bother wasting time to launch probes.
This is the exact reason that they should be removed, that is not exploring that borders the realm of farming sites. It also bears mention that "not wasting time" is the reason behind dropping a DSP, which Octoven says is "gamey" and part of behavior he does not like. However, I must disagree that being able to see what's in space "borders on farming sites". It's the same thing you do by dropping a DSP, except now it's done for you (whether you like it or not, which is not cool btw CCP) and presented in a fancy new way that happens much faster than the DSP scan sweep ever did. I'm a fan of the new scan sweep, myself. I'm not a fan of being unable to turn off the auto-sweep and run the scanner on-demand like with the current system scanner on TQ, but in my opinion it beats dropping a DSP simply to see what (if anything) is around. Except the new system removes a significant skill investment, that usually comes with specialized equipment. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Droidyk
Maniacal Miners INC The Omega Industries
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:54:00 -
[517] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. It just doesn't make sense to me. (yes i know deep space probes have been removed.)
Is it going to be possible to change the amount of probes launched or can i set my own quick formations? I normally only use 4 combat probes as it is what I'm used to and it minimizes the effect probes have on dscan. Based on this I would also love to keep the ability to have at least 8 probes inside the launcher for the ability to launch multiple sets without having to spend so much time reloading.
What? You still can launch 1 probe by yourself pushing the scan probe launcher, noone ever said that the launcher will be removed or you couldnt click it to launch one probe after another... |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:57:00 -
[518] - Quote
Droidyk wrote:What? You still can launch 1 probe by yourself pushing the scan probe launcher, noone ever said that the launcher will be removed or you couldnt click it to launch one probe after another...
Go ahead, try it. Then come back and say it again. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:58:00 -
[519] - Quote
Droidyk wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. It just doesn't make sense to me. (yes i know deep space probes have been removed.)
Is it going to be possible to change the amount of probes launched or can i set my own quick formations? I normally only use 4 combat probes as it is what I'm used to and it minimizes the effect probes have on dscan. Based on this I would also love to keep the ability to have at least 8 probes inside the launcher for the ability to launch multiple sets without having to spend so much time reloading. What? You still can launch 1 probe by yourself pushing the scan probe launcher, noone ever said that the launcher will be removed or you couldnt click it to launch one probe after another... No, you can't any thing that is done to launch a probe launched 7, if you have less than 7 probes loaded, it will not launch any. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Perris Korat
PKor A.T. Metals and Mechanical The Interstellar Contract Agency
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:01:00 -
[520] - Quote
Droidyk wrote:
What? You still can launch 1 probe by yourself pushing the scan probe launcher, noone ever said that the launcher will be removed or you couldnt click it to launch one probe after another...
No you can't. At least, I couldn't on sisi last night, with a sisters expanded launcher. It was either 7 or none, and it really sucked because i was in a WH with only 5 probes, and it wouldn't let me launch ANY. If that's how it goes down on launch day, I predict a crapload of people are suddenly trapped, or worse, lost, in WH's with no way to probe their way out.
I really hate the way some stuff gets dumbed down TOO much. I liked the fact that scanning was somewhat hard and took some skill. |
|
Egg McMuff
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:07:00 -
[521] - Quote
Ok I take back what i said about the cream buns etc---
I entered a wormhole and scanned for 3 hours (wife was out)
The overlay works well instead of the DSP so that is a good thing in my opinion.
Things to fix ----
8 probes please timer for probes and scan routine the 100% bug fixed copy and paste the sigs please Column adjustment
I also noticed that when you place the cursor over the signature in space you get different noises from different sigs?? could this be to identify what type it is or I could just be a muppet and be imagining it.
cheers |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:18:00 -
[522] - Quote
I'm hopeful for the game. Despite CCPs effort to make me a bitter vet, I'll offer a summary.
Like:
The system scanner that lists sigs. It has potential for removing local and allowing for hostile ship detection on screen. It keeps your view in space and away from spreadsheets.
Ability to move probe groups with 1 box and adjust their radius by dragging on the sphere.
Not like:
Removal of a viable probe type. Which would not be necessary if we can design probe patterns at different Au, that maintain their relative radius when the size is changed.
Loss of 8th probe
Sigs are too easy to scan.
Wishlist :
Imagine a system where you scan out a site or group of ships. The sig goes to 100% for everyone in fleet. You would have distance and type of sig displayed in space.
Some sigs require multiple probers in fleet coordinating probe placement.
Keep player skill integral to the scanning process.
Specialized probes. |
JetCord
The Brony Herd Lost Obsession
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:21:00 -
[523] - Quote
New exploration modules There are Tech I and Tech II variants.
Scan Acquisition Array
Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII
Scan Rangefinding Array
Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII
Scan Pinpointing Array
Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II
i noticed that the skill requirement for T1 and T2 version for these modules are the same!
is this intended so that we go straight to T2 version instead of using the T1 version? |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:24:00 -
[524] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:As a matter of fact, they are turning exploration into mission running. Dumb and straightforward money grind. Pro-Tip it always was. Explorers just got to lie to themselves it wasn't. Well... the "slow" ones anyway. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2747
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:25:00 -
[525] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote: Keep player skill integral to the scanning process.
CCP is against player and character skills affecting scanning, their plan is to turn it into "pres butan, receive bacon". In the next iteration probes are removed completely, and you will get all sigs and ships warpable with one pass of Discovery Scanner.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
zar dada
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 13:52:00 -
[526] - Quote
The probes are much easier to control and the sizing of probes doesn't seem to bug like the current version where sizing the group only resizes a single probe after the scan button was pressed. Overall the new probe control is much simpler.
However, I'm accustomed to using 6 probes because the 7th probe in the middle makes the object of scanning difficult to see. Will it be possible to launch 6 probes or have a custom probe configuration when launching probes? When I have less than 7 probes in the launcher the probe formation buttons don't work.
Another problem I saw while in wspace, my 100% results were not saving, and I would lose them after I hit scan again. But in kspace the results 100% were saving.
Will it be possible to sort the results window to see the 100% results at the bottom?
I was using the Deep Space probes for this reason http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html
Thanks for making the features available on the test server. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:02:00 -
[527] - Quote
Scanning Tutorial is still using the old system and needs to be changed. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Perris Korat
PKor A.T. Metals and Mechanical The Interstellar Contract Agency
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:02:00 -
[528] - Quote
Egg McMuff wrote: Also when you scan and then ignore sigs it would be really nice if you could remove them from overlay as they are ignored.
+1 |
Moth Eisig
The Trident Brotherhood
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:10:00 -
[529] - Quote
Voith wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:As a matter of fact, they are turning exploration into mission running. Dumb and straightforward money grind. Pro-Tip it always was. Explorers just got to lie to themselves it wasn't. Well... the "slow" ones anyway. Yeah, "exploration" is a bit of a misnomer. It's more like going metal detecting on the beach. During D-Day. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:14:00 -
[530] - Quote
Thoughts on how to make the new system work. Leave our skills alone!! Set it up so that you can launch a single probe still, and add a option in the scanner window to set the number of probes you want in your auto formation. Leave the mystery when traveling into a new system, being given all the information right up front kills the mystery of exploration, I will say that Space Anomalies are a fine thing to see though upon entering a system. Standardize the size of probes and flag combat probes to only load into the Expanded Probe Launcher. Let us keep out DSP. Leave Our Skills Alone!!! Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
Zircon Dasher
195
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:20:00 -
[531] - Quote
So quick impressions after spending a few hours scanning yesterday (may be repeats.... I won;t be bothering to read 27 pages):
1) Probe numbers- being stuck at "launch 7 or gtfo" is kind of a drag if you are trying to scan multiple locations at the same time. 2) Interface- Perhaps I will get used to it but..... It is awfully fiddly if you do not want to use the preset formations. 3) Buggy- several features do not seem to have been implemented (hacking for example) in a state that is functional. I will bug report later today.
I was going to say WTF?!! in regards to probes automagically returning when jumping/docking, removing DSP's, and copy-paste ability. After sleeping on it, however, I have come to think it is actually a good thing. You won't get much love from the people who rely upon using these tactics... legally or not-so-legally.... but people will adapt like they always do. Here is to hoping you keep it in! Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
261
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:33:00 -
[532] - Quote
I have removed a couple of non-constructive posts.
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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zar dada
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:36:00 -
[533] - Quote
Is the Discovery Scanner Overlay supposed to work like this?
http://i.imgur.com/1msf6j5.jpg
After I have scanned a result to 100% it still shows red on the overlay.
|
zar dada
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 14:48:00 -
[534] - Quote
The 100% results in wspace don't save in the history
The Sig ID HGU-520 scanned to 100% http://i.imgur.com/MOXwudd.jpg
The next scan shows HGU-520 result not saved http://i.imgur.com/V3UBc3g.jpg
Is this working as intended? In a system with 10+ sigs how do we keep track of what we have scanned to 100%?
|
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:10:00 -
[535] - Quote
After probing for about an hour on SiSi:
1. The scanner window needs columns back. Sortable columns.
2. I can launch 7 probes. And 7 probes only. What if I only want one? Or four? What If I probe differently than CCP does?
3. I can place my probes only in two fixed formations. What If I probe differently than CCP does?
Points 2 & 3 also bear an interesting question; If I can only lauch a fixed amount of probes in fixed formations why not go all the way and boil everything down to a single probe?
4. Is it really necessary to nerf probing skills only to introduce modules that aid probing?! |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:11:00 -
[536] - Quote
After playing with probing a bit on Sisi I'm happy with 90% of it.
The 10% I'm unsure about:
The UI improvements are great, but they're a double edged sword. With the ability to launch 7 probes, instantly arraign them for optimal scanning, and very quickly resize them, combat scanning is MUCH much faster than it was. With my lvl 4 skills I was able to skip multiple probe distance settings even while scanning down abandoned fighters. This means safe spots are going to be significantly less safe even with a non-covops cloak now especially for slow warping ships like capitals/supers. And ratters are going to have to be checking local even more often to have some measure of safety.
In the initial probe formation the bubbles don't overlap at all, which means that even on the largest area setting they're going to be missing parts of space and therefore potentially some signatures.
Recommendation:
Make the probe launcher drop all the probes at the END of its cycle, and make the cycle take a bit longer. Instant probing is too fast to be balanced. This also returns the brief scanning ship vulnerability window that they currently have while uncloaking to drop probes.
Give probes some moderate overlap in their 2d grid pattern formation so that they aren't missing large swaths of on-celestial-plane space. |
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CCP Paradox
828
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:12:00 -
[537] - Quote
Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1408
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:18:00 -
[538] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes.
Just allow the ability to launch probes individually in the way it has always been, and much of the issues people have would be resolved.
E: For bonus points, modify the "predefined" cluster launches to user controlled. Player organizes probes in certain fashion, highlights probes, right-click "Save Formation", and allow THE PLAYER to do presets when it comes to probes. Improving NPE |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1018
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:19:00 -
[539] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes. very good to know. players always value feedback on their feedback, just like you do ;)
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Kuetlzelcoatl
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:21:00 -
[540] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Leave the mystery when traveling into a new system, being given all the information right up front kills the mystery of exploration,...
I actually like getting some automatic results. Brings some realism to the game where you do have some automated systems.
I would say make it optional to auto-show results. |
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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:24:00 -
[541] - Quote
zar dada wrote:The 100% results in wspace don't save in the history Is this working as intended? In a system with 10+ sigs how do we keep track of what we have scanned to 100%?
As was said dozens of times in this thread already: That is a bug.
Read before posting maybe? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:43:00 -
[542] - Quote
alot of good points are already made against the removal of deep space probes.
One DSP at 256au provides alot of intel. ships, POS and mods, drones, cosmic sigs with readable percentages. a great deal of intel. currently you have not replaced this intel gathering ability with anything. i would like to know if the removal of DSP is because you (CCP) feel it is something you want removed from the game? or was the removal of this intel gathering technique an oversight because you were very focused on PVE probing only?
Expanding the directional scanner range to 256au would make the removal of Deep Space Probes easier to digest. but still i do hope you reconsider the removal of DSP and there is a change they are left in the game.
i feel that all you really needed to do to buff probing was to allow a user defined launch pattern of up to 8 probes defined in that pattern (and allow the launching of 1 probe by holding shift). that simple change would have been awesome. |
AtomYcX
Cold Moon Destruction. Transmission Lost
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:45:00 -
[543] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Expanding the directional scanner range to 256au
No. |
Capqu
Love Squad
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:53:00 -
[544] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes.
can you confirm whether or not distance not showing up anymore for combat probing is intentional? http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
SemperAtrox
Dark Quantum Singularity
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:54:00 -
[545] - Quote
Bum Shadow wrote:Jenn Rose wrote:I hate you Paradox and not going to read the past 21 pages of hurr durr for other replies. I have used DSP's daily for the past 3 years and you will be changing my game play considerably.
Nothing I see in your post encourages better exploration, which is much needed, but continues to nerf it even further. If CCP does not like exploration, just remove it from the game altogether. Do not keep ******* us year after year. I feel your pain. But take the time to read just page 21 and you'll notice a few people have found that the DSP functions remain. Just in a new form :) Different in presentation but similar in function.
did you ever use DSP's, did you ever notice that their max range is 256au? and combats only 64au? you say in another post that you can scan a full system in 8 seconds without DSP's. nice! but with one DSP, you don't need even 1 second to do this and be warned for ships lurking around. so, once again, CCP, don't remove DSP's, and rethink the mechanisms of probes launching, so that we can launch them one by one if we want, and place them where we want them to be! |
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E.
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:00:00 -
[546] - Quote
Im not going to read the entire thread to see if this bug has been reported.
When you deploy probes the formation is centered on the sun, not on my ship. Bug, or intended? |
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:00:00 -
[547] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes.
Nice to know.
Don't remove DSP's.
Rethink formations so they overlap. School boy error! doh!
Listen to your customers for a change. Seems unlikely... |
|
CCP Paradox
830
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:04:00 -
[548] - Quote
Capqu wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes. can you confirm whether or not distance not showing up anymore for combat probing is intentional? edit: bear in mind this is the only way to identify where you're about to warp your fleet, and is a massive change for all fleet warfare
Not intentional, check the Known Issues in my OP!
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Im not going to read the entire thread to see if this bug has been reported.
When you deploy probes the formation is centered on the sun, not on my ship. Bug, or intended?
Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:08:00 -
[549] - Quote
After playing for about 90 minutes.
- 100% results are not stored.
- adjustable columns on the results, everything is just "Guristas".
- spread formation is a bit derp, let me store at least one of my own formations.
- without DSP I'll probably will want to move a single probe to a celestial for recon more often. This is a bit fiddly now, something like "show all probes" would mend that I think.
- eight probes, thx.
- hotkey for "Analyze", thx.
- on-grid combat probing is getting a bit
|
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:10:00 -
[550] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Capqu wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Just acknowledging this thread still, so you know we are here. We're talking about all of your feedback right now. Investigating, talking things through, and prioritizing what we need to do.
Omnathious Deninard, the NPE/Tutorial stuff is still to come for the changes. can you confirm whether or not distance not showing up anymore for combat probing is intentional? edit: bear in mind this is the only way to identify where you're about to warp your fleet, and is a massive change for all fleet warfare Not intentional, check the Known Issues in my OP! Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Im not going to read the entire thread to see if this bug has been reported.
When you deploy probes the formation is centered on the sun, not on my ship. Bug, or intended? Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others.
locate at the sun is something bad idea
Before : launch probes, press F10, then the camera at your ship and with the probe, you can quickly arrange them Now : launch probes, press F10, ................., what's my probe?? i need to zoom out, move camera to the sun, zoom in, it's annoying.
option 1: keep the old one, probe formation default at the place you launch option 2: pressing F10, camera on the sun, not on your ship
but i prefer option 1, coz the sun is cluster with lots of celestial object. |
|
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:10:00 -
[551] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others.
Sometimes you might want to hide your probes.
|
Twistator
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:11:00 -
[552] - Quote
Please dont remove Deep Space Probes .... |
Haulie Berry
639
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:14:00 -
[553] - Quote
Nam Dnilb wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others. Sometimes you might want to hide your probes.
The physical probes actually launch at your ship, still. If you have them on your overview, you'll see them. It is only the positioning formation that defaults to the sun, but the probes themselves won't actually fly off until you hit scan, so it's still quite possible to hide your probes.
I do agree that it would be better if the positioning formation started at the physical location of the probes, though. |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:16:00 -
[554] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Nam Dnilb wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others. Sometimes you might want to hide your probes. The physical probes actually launch at your ship, still. If you have them on your overview, you'll see them. It is only the positioning formation that defaults to the sun, but the probes themselves won't actually fly off until you hit scan, so it's still quite possible to hide your probes. I do agree that it would be better if the positioning formation started at the physical location of the probes, though. Fair point. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:18:00 -
[555] - Quote
Can the decryptor changes and hacking mini game get their own thread? Any comments on these just disappear due to more interest in the scanning changes. |
Tealdar Ohaya
Parallax Shift The Periphery
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:48:00 -
[556] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Can the decryptor changes and hacking mini game get their own thread? Any comments on these just disappear due to more interest in the scanning changes.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=233796&find=unread Not official but devs have posted on it regarding the relic/ data sites.. The basic gist is that the sites are still a massive Work In Progress that are more refined on the CCP dev servers with improvements to be releaced on sisi soon.. Dev post in link.. |
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:49:00 -
[557] - Quote
Can we get a straight answer - what is the skill requirement for using the new T2 scan related modules? |
|
CCP Paradox
833
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 16:54:00 -
[558] - Quote
Seolfor wrote:Can we get a straight answer - what is the skill requirement for using the new T2 scan related modules?
This is a bug and will change, to what I cannot say yet as the designer hasn't made the change CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:00:00 -
[559] - Quote
So I need to fit my scanning ship that lives in wormhole space with all these new modules so i can scan as i do now.
FAIL!!! |
|
CCP Tallest
C C P C C P Alliance
491
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:01:00 -
[560] - Quote
Hey all.
Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203
Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread:
Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
Quote: Copy results as table
Switching the probe result UI from raw table to a progress bar meant that we lost this much loved functionality. We are working on getting it back.
Quote: Sort results by distance
This is coming back.
Quote: Launching fewer probes
We are changing it so that you can launch any number of probes you want (up to the maximum of 8).
Gÿà EVE Game Designer Gÿà GÖÑ Team Super Friends GÖÑ |
|
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:03:00 -
[561] - Quote
JetCord wrote:New exploration modules There are Tech I and Tech II variants.
Scan Acquisition Array
Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII
Scan Rangefinding Array
Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII
Scan Pinpointing Array
Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II
i noticed that the skill requirement for T1 and T2 version for these modules are the same!
is this intended so that we go straight to T2 version instead of using the T1 version?
I imagine this was set so that those who do not have the skills for T2s yet can properly test both modules with low skills. |
Egg McMuff
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:04:00 -
[562] - Quote
I Love you all
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed. Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. nging it so that you can launch any number of probes you want (up to the maximum of 8).
|
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:05:00 -
[563] - Quote
Ty CCP Tallest, for listening to us ;) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
581
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:06:00 -
[564] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
The new overlay does NOT give you this information for ships, which is functionality that the DSP has
|
AtomYcX
Cold Moon Destruction. Transmission Lost
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:07:00 -
[565] - Quote
<3 ..apart from the DSPs. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:13:00 -
[566] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
Lovely feedback. Keep it coming.
Thank you for the update. It seems like the plan is to replace the deep space probe with the sensor overlay. I hope that the Five-O group knows this and can come up with a sufficient replacement.
Who should we be talking to for putting the sites identified by the sensor overlay on the system map? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:16:00 -
[567] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote: Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
You gave part of the reason why people predominantly use(d) 7 probes. Ease of assembling the setup. Time is often a factor that can be more important than using the perfect setup resolution-wise.
With predefined configurations time will be a non-issue and assembling difficulty will be a one-time investment, so people will aim to use the most efficient setup. (Which IMO would be two tetrahedrons with different scan ranges and main direction, btw :))
|
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:16:00 -
[568] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed. Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. Quote: Copy results as table
Switching the probe result UI from raw table to a progress bar meant that we lost this much loved functionality. We are working on getting it back. .... cont Good replies, but in general I just want to say that it seems you're operating from a philosophy where if players aren't using something, you remove it and simplify things instead of making more current things viable.
To put it this way, if the ship rebalancing team had followed this philosophy, they would just remove 3-4 ships from each ship line instead of rebalancing them all. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:16:00 -
[569] - Quote
Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:17:00 -
[570] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote: The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
This was not the only thing. Deep probes and combats could be arranged in a pattern where the deep probe is 2 sizes larger than the combat (8/2; 4 /1; 2/0.5) so that when you resize one type of probe when they are all highlighted they will maintain this relationship. This is an advanced technique to scan in WH.
|
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Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:17:00 -
[571] - Quote
The forum won't let me post this as a reply.../
The functionality of DSP's is not replicated by the new system so far on the test server.
Leave them alone!!.
|
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:17:00 -
[572] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
The overlay does not give all the intel that a single DSP at 256au gives you. does the overlay show ships? player owned structures? anything other than cosmic/gravimetric/anomalies? as far as i understand it, and with the testing i have done, the answer is no. please acknowledge that you as a team will rethink this further. |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
211
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:23:00 -
[573] - Quote
Ciba Lexlulu wrote:I was playing around with the new probing mechanic and trying to find Radar (new Data) and Magneto (new Relic) sites. Unfortunately only can find Relic sites. Unless something is broken, out of 4 Relic sites in Null and Low in Sisi, there are no 'cans' to be hacked/analyzed with the new Relic analyzer.
Has this been seeded in Sisi?
Yes I found a Data site very quickly in Orvolle when I signed in. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:24:00 -
[574] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work.
Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true.
On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though) |
|
CCP Paradox
834
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:25:00 -
[575] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true. On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though)
Skill changes are final. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:29:00 -
[576] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
With predefined configurations time will be a non-issue and assembling difficulty will be a one-time investment, so people will aim to use the most efficient setup. (Which IMO would be two tetrahedrons with different scan ranges and main direction, btw :))
This is the configuration you could use with deeps and combats. For speed they would be planar, but still highly effective. |
Ischie
Murderous Inc
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:29:00 -
[577] - Quote
Deep Space Probes
Deep space probes give info on ships, signatures, and structures. Please tell me that the new system scanner gives the same info and also has a range of 64+ au and you can remove deep space probes. if not, you will be removing a feature that works well within the game currently and it will just make wormhole god Bob mad. |
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:34:00 -
[578] - Quote
Ischie wrote:Deep Space Probes Deep space probes give info on ships, signatures, and structures. Please tell me that the new system scanner gives the same info and also has a range of 64+ au and you can remove deep space probes. if not, you will be removing a feature that works well within the game currently and it will just make wormhole god Bob mad.
Currently NO. I hope wormhole god Bob has more influence than me. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:34:00 -
[579] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
The overlay does not give all the intel that a single DSP at 256au gives you. does the overlay show ships? player owned structures? anything other than cosmic/gravimetric/anomalies? as far as i understand it, and with the testing i have done, the answer is no. please acknowledge that you as a team will rethink this further.
or at least acknowledge that it is indeed your fully conscious intent to nerf this intel gathering ability, so that i can move on to considering my monthly subscription instead of posting here. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:41:00 -
[580] - Quote
i use dsp, and my opinion is, if you wish to make scaning more common and easy for ppl by removing deep space probe and give sensor overlay, for giving ppl faster way to use dps method of scaning, that ppl not must wait for make strometic 5, is ok, but then sensor overlay must work like dps or better, doing from sensor overlay something like on board dsp scaner.
i don't realy care abaut skill points adavantage, becouse this is not advantage, you can buy 100mil sp char and still skill your barbie char and problem is solved
but if you nerf dsp scaning method by nerfing functionality, by not move all futures of deep space probe, to sensor overlay then is very not nice |
|
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:41:00 -
[581] - Quote
Ischie wrote:Deep Space Probes Deep space probes give info on ships, signatures, and structures. Please tell me that the new system scanner gives the same info and also has a range of 64+ au and you can remove deep space probes. if not, you will be removing a feature that works well within the game currently and it will just make wormhole god Bob mad.
The new system scanner does not give the same info, but it does have an infinite range. |
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:42:00 -
[582] - Quote
The 'problem' with the sensor overlay, is that you don't have the information available at a glance.
Since you now make anoms (and grav sites) more easily available, heck, even signatures can been pinpointed quite well without using probes; using DSPs would give a very clear list of changes in your system. A perfect defensive mechanism.
The DPSs and the System Scanner lets you easily filter out all the things that you trust. But with the Sensor Overlay you have to keep panning around and around, to see whether a new wormhole opened up, meaning there's a possible threat.
Yes, I am talking about W-space.
Removing DSPs makes things a lot harder actually. Sure, new players don't have the skills to use them. But I trained a very long time to be able to use them, making it easier to see what's going on in our W-system. And now you take that away.
The Sensor Overlay looks really nice. I'm not sure how Fozzie(?) described the wish for it; more realistic? But nothing beats having a single list with results. And that's how I'd see it when I'd be in a space ship too, on some panel, or a 3d-hologram of the system;; the System Scanner.
|
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:50:00 -
[583] - Quote
Probes are launched around your ship, but appear around the star in the system map. This is confusing, as it can convince players that the probes are already in a certain position. Making the probes appear around the ship in the system map too also allows for them to be moved directly upwards more easily, so that they can be hidden from d-scan quickly.
A scan result of 75% or higher gives a green bar, which gives the wrong visual indication that the scan is complete when it isn't.
The 'spread' formation has significant gaps in its coverage. The probes really still need to overlap to avoid this.
The pinpoint formation should perhaps have the default range of 8 AU. Unless I'm mistaken in my understanding, sites can appear up to 4 AU from planets, and wormholes farther, so if the 4 AU pinpoint pattern is centred on a planet it could still result in fuzzy spheres or rings from signatures near their placement limit.
Sorting the results by distance is good. Sorting the results by type is useful too.
There are no time limits displayed on probes. I presume this is because they no longer have a time limit. But they can't last forever, or a scout that is killed with probes launched will leave space debris everywhere. Will probes in space be deleted every downtime?
The range overlay when moving probes is useful, but less so when no numbers are visible, either on the concentric rings of the overlay or on the probe sphere for its current range. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:51:00 -
[584] - Quote
I'm not so concerned about the DSP removal for Intel. Drop 2 or 3 combats around for system coverage.
My concern is I used DSP in a 4/4 layout with combats to great effect. To replicate it, I would like the ability to set probe sizes in formation that maintain their relative sizes when increasing /decreasing probe sizes. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:54:00 -
[585] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:I'm not so concerned about the DSP removal for Intel. Drop 2 or 3 combats around for system coverage.
My concern is I used DSP in a 4/4 layout with combats to great effect. To replicate it, I would like the ability to set probe sizes in formation that maintain their relative sizes when increasing /decreasing probe sizes. I thing as a group, our point is we all have reasons for the DSP and removing them hurts us all. The DSP is not being made obsolete by the new scanner overlay. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:00:00 -
[586] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote: The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
DSP Probes DO have other uses that CCP may not realize.
PLEASE see my thread in F&I and consider not removing them from the game. They are used in various aspects of both offensive, and defensive PVP and fill a niche other probes cannot provide.
Link to F&I discussion thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=233911&find=unread |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:01:00 -
[587] - Quote
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote:Kadl wrote:Ischie wrote:Deep Space Probes Deep space probes give info on ships, signatures, and structures. Please tell me that the new system scanner gives the same info and also has a range of 64+ au and you can remove deep space probes. if not, you will be removing a feature that works well within the game currently and it will just make wormhole god Bob mad. The new system scanner does not give the same info, but it does have an infinite range. Infinite? No.
Infinite is Fozzie's wording not mine. It is clear that he intends the sensor overlay to show all anomalies and signatures within a system no mater how far away. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:02:00 -
[588] - Quote
I honestly don't think it matters. Sounds like they want to ditch the DSP.
With probe formations individual style of probe placement becomes irrelevant because before you needed to balance your skill at laying out probes as quickly and efficiently as you could. That was part of the skill component. If I can click a button and have optimal probe arrangement everyone will have this same layout. Now the only skill will be how fast you can center your group on a sig. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:05:00 -
[589] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:CCP Tallest wrote: The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
DSP Probes DO have other uses that CCP may not realize.
I want CCP to acknowledge that they DO REALIZE the pvp usage of DSP and are tossing them away anyway. Let me know CCP Tallest.
i hope i am wrong.... |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1390
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:08:00 -
[590] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Quote: Copy results as table
Switching the probe result UI from raw table to a progress bar meant that we lost this much loved functionality. We are working on getting it back.
If you can't make it a table which can be C&Ped from, how about a button which just dumps the information to the clipboard? (Might be the easier option anyway) 'Just' match the sorting from the display. It's not /quite/ as good, as you'll always get all of it. But that's better than nothing. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
|
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club Whores in space
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:14:00 -
[591] - Quote
Chiming in to say that I too am dismayed at the surprise deprecation of DSPs. Please keep them, in as close as their current functionality as possible. |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:42:00 -
[592] - Quote
Please confirm that the exploration skill RANKS are not being reduced. |
Mimiru Minahiro
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:43:00 -
[593] - Quote
I for one am glad to see the 256AU enhanced d-scan go away. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:44:00 -
[594] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:Please confirm that the exploration skill RANKS are not being reduced. The skill effects are being reduced, to half if what they currently are. Logging on to Sisi will tell you this. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:45:00 -
[595] - Quote
Consider the DSP dead.
Number of probes for exploring
Pre-Apychropha: 21 Pre-Odyssey: 3 |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:48:00 -
[596] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:Please confirm that the exploration skill RANKS are not being reduced. The skill effects are being reduced, to half if what they currently are. Logging on to Sisi will tell you this.
I'll try again. The skill RANKS not the EFFECTS; will the RANKS be changed? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 18:50:00 -
[597] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:Please confirm that the exploration skill RANKS are not being reduced. The skill effects are being reduced, to half if what they currently are. Logging on to Sisi will tell you this. I'll try again. The skill RANKS not the EFFECTS; will the RANKS be changed? Correct the ranks will remain the same, the EFFECTS are being reduced. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Haulie Berry
652
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:00:00 -
[598] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:Please confirm that the exploration skill RANKS are not being reduced. The skill effects are being reduced, to half if what they currently are. Logging on to Sisi will tell you this. I'll try again. The skill RANKS not the EFFECTS; will the RANKS be changed?
Jesus christ. How the **** could anyone still not understand that NO, THE RANKS ARE NOT BEING CHANGED. This has been reiterated on damn near every page of this thread now. |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:02:00 -
[599] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:Please confirm that the exploration skill RANKS are not being reduced. The skill effects are being reduced, to half if what they currently are. Logging on to Sisi will tell you this. I'll try again. The skill RANKS not the EFFECTS; will the RANKS be changed? Jesus christ. How the **** could anyone still not understand that NO, THE RANKS ARE NOT BEING CHANGED. This has been reiterated on damn near every page of this thread now.
Why thank you. A straightforward answer to a straight forward question. Was not so hard was it. |
Haulie Berry
652
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:04:00 -
[600] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:...stuff...
Sounds good. I do really think, though, that you guys should seriously consider weakening the strength of many of the PvE signatures.
They're just too easy to find, imo - I basically have to make absolutely no compromises with respect to my ship choice, ship fitting, rigs, or implants to scan down the best sites.
With the introduction of even more ways to increase scan strength, I really think this should be revisited. |
|
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:14:00 -
[601] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. You drunk from yesterday? Most people using 4, 5 or 8. I mean, people who actually know what they are doing and have Astro 5. (Which is why, probably, you refer to 7 probes. Astro 4 is a major stopping point for many who are "kinda into it", but "not too bothered to go that deep".)
> Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes
Tetrahedron - 4 probes. Double tetra - 8 probes. Dual cross - 8 probes.
> which are easy to identify and assemble.
You never scanned in your life, are you?
> Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players
It teaches bad habits to new players, complicate things for experienced players, and increase scanning deviation.
> and reduce micromanagement of probes.
Let us save our own presets. Problem solved.
Quote:The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. Sheesh... The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:16:00 -
[602] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:
Exploration site signature changes Unknown sites now display whether it is a Wormwhole or Combat site when you discover the group. Signature Types have been changed to: Combat Sites (from Unknown) Wormhole (from Unknown) Data Sites (from Radar) Relic Sites (from Magnometric) Gas Sites (from Ladar) Ore Sites (from Gravimetric)
Yes! Just what I wanted! CCP to dumb things down to levels that 4 year olds can understand without thinknig. This is the greatest thing ever! /sarcasm
Seriously, stupidest thing ever, way to go WoW's route. Dumb things down to casual levels. This is a sci-fi game. Let us *Expletive deleted* use sci-fi names for stuff. Keep it up and you will fall into WoW's pace. Good for you.
Also, hate making scanning easier. I took the time to learn to do it, everyone else should too. It's not freaking hard. Launhing probes at once, good. Scanning mods, good. Everything else, bad. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:16:00 -
[603] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true. On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though) Skill changes are final. What about reimbursement? The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:20:00 -
[604] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true. On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though) Skill changes are final. What about reimbursement?
Hahaha.
Haulie Berry will answer.
|
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:28:00 -
[605] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
The overlay does not give all the intel that a single DSP at 256au gives you. does the overlay show ships? player owned structures? anything other than cosmic/gravimetric/anomalies? as far as i understand it, and with the testing i have done, the answer is no. please acknowledge that you as a team will rethink this further.
I wholeheartedly agree. Don't take away our deep space probes unless this new overlay will do exactly what deep space probes do. |
Exodus 3D Gidrine
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:29:00 -
[606] - Quote
I can load 20 Probes into the "Expanded Probelauncher II" and im launching 7 probes in a formation.
So i can launch and recall 2 formations. Then i have 6 probes left in the launcher. And Im not able to launch these 6 Probes.
So please set the max-value to 21 (3*7 probes) instead of 20 probes. |
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:31:00 -
[607] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true. On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though) Skill changes are final.
CCP *expletive deleted* |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:36:00 -
[608] - Quote
Zu'ferna wrote:I wholeheartedly agree. Don't take away our deep space probes unless this new overlay will do exactly what deep space probes do.
DSPs are easymode 256AU D-scan. I thought you don't want to have dumbed down things in eve. Sending mixed signals much?
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
665
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:37:00 -
[609] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. You drunk from yesterday? Most people using 4, 5 or 8. I mean, people who actually know what they are doing and have Astro 5. (Which is why, probably, you refer to 7 probes. Astro 4 is a major stopping point for many who are "kinda into it", but "not too bothered to go that deep".) > Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes Tetrahedron - 4 probes. Double tetra - 8 probes. Dual cross - 8 probes. > which are easy to identify and assemble. You never scanned in your life, are you? > Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players It teaches bad habits to new players, complicate things for experienced players, and increase scanning deviation. > and reduce micromanagement of probes. Let us save our own presets. Problem solved. Quote:The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. Sheesh... Most people I know use 4, 5 or 7 depending on what setup they want to do. 7 was center and one in each direction of each axis. Seemed pretty common and was a faster setup that double tetra for me from launch. |
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:37:00 -
[610] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Kitanga wrote:[quote=Kitanga]
or at least acknowledge that it is indeed your fully conscious intent to nerf this intel gathering ability, so that i can move on to considering my monthly subscription instead of posting here. Your stuff I can haz?
You can have mine when I do the same. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
665
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:38:00 -
[611] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true. On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though) Skill changes are final. What about reimbursement? What is there to reimburse? |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:45:00 -
[612] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Also what about keeping our skills as is, they work fine no real need to change how they work. Since they sem to be moving away from the limitation of using exactly 7 probes, reverting the skill change would be an option, true. On the other hand, I just finished Astrometrics V because of the nice skill boni it will give :) (I'd be ok with only getting the 8th probe, though) Skill changes are final. What about reimbursement? What is there to reimburse? SP from lowered rank skill. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:45:00 -
[613] - Quote
What's to reimburse?
All my scanning skills because they're not needed anymore to increase my number of probes, DSPs, or scan out sites?
I'll roll a noob character, fit scanning mods and b
I don't expect to get anything back but look at where this is going. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
665
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:46:00 -
[614] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:SP from lowered rank skill. Skill ranks are not being reduced.
Olari Vanderfall wrote:What's to reimburse?
All my scanning skills because they're not needed anymore to increase my number of probes, DSPs, or scan out sites?
I'll roll a noob character, fit scanning mods and be scanning out COSMOS drug sites at 16au.
I don't expect to get anything back but look at where this is going. For a moment going into the hypothetical that this isn't exageration, I'd keep my skills in full for the following reasons: - Being able to scan effectively in a non scan dedicated ship without scan mods - Being able to lock sigs at 16 AU in a scan bonused ship without mods (All in one t3 for instance) - Being able to lock sigs at 32 AU in a bonused ship with mods |
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:47:00 -
[615] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote: SP from lowered rank skill.
shoot this guy, irl. |
Haulie Berry
660
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:47:00 -
[616] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: What is there to reimburse?
SP from lowered rank skill.
http://i.imgur.com/qdgYU.gif |
StimOr
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:51:00 -
[617] - Quote
I feel that removing the 8th probe reduces the depth of EVEGÇÖs gameplay. With 8 probes, I had a lot more options for my own creative scanning styles. Better scanners and scouts than me were able to do truly impressive things with 8 probes using skills learned over years.
Removing the 8th probe really seems like CCPGÇÖs strategy is to force users to play a certain way. I feel that runs against the idea of a sandbox game.
I also donGÇÖt see any pressing to remove the 8th probe, as it does not make life easier for new gamers, and reduces the quality of gameplay for older players. Most people use seven probes - I did initially. Then I started getting creative, and enjoyed the fruits of my 8 probe setup labor.
Please leave us with 8 probes and room to grow.
|
Mick Straih
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:52:00 -
[618] - Quote
I have 3 requests/suggestions: - Can probe markers be still visible when 'grouped' (ie. when only one box to move them is visible)? I like seeing exact position of individual probes. They can be smaller/grayed out or something to indicate that you can't move them. - bring back scan progress bar/ time remaining display(is removal of this is intentional? doesn't seem to make sense) - i'd like the 'tickers' for activating/disabling probes back, tho this isn't terribly important.
More general thoughts: Removing DSP probes - i don't personally use them but i don't believe removing them to be warranted. You say that the new overlay gives the same information, that is technically true, but it doesn't give said information in the same form, probe gives you a list all in one place, overlay scatters it all around you, which is far less useful.
Launching multiple probes at once - it's nice as far as requiring less clicking, but, it removes consideration of whether to use more probes which takes longer to launch and makes you visible for longer or whether to stick to 4 probes at penalty of potentially taking longer to actually scan. I doubt this will happen but what about varying launching time with number of probes used? I probably won't complain if it stays as is tho.
Regarding this quote:
CCP Paradox wrote:Not easier, but more accessible. We are not trying to reduce the art of scanning down to a simple click, we are aiming to make scanning more accessible to those who want to use it, but still requires you to master the art. Removing features that are less often used does actually reduce the 'art of scanning', if there's no option for doing something differently then there isn't much 'art' to it is there? Also even if something is only occasionally useful, it's still a skill to realize when it is. |
Haulie Berry
660
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:53:00 -
[619] - Quote
StimOr wrote:I feel that removing the 8th probe reduces the depth of EVEGÇÖs gameplay. With 8 probes, I had a lot more options for my own creative scanning styles. Better scanners and scouts than me were able to do truly impressive things with 8 probes using skills learned over years.
Removing the 8th probe really seems like CCPGÇÖs strategy is to force users to play a certain way. I feel that runs against the idea of a sandbox game.
I also donGÇÖt see any pressing to remove the 8th probe, as it does not make life easier for new gamers, and reduces the quality of gameplay for older players. Most people use seven probes - I did initially. Then I started getting creative, and enjoyed the fruits of my 8 probe setup labor.
Please leave us with 8 probes and room to grow.
CCP Tallest wrote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
Hey guys, we can stop complaining about the 8th probe three pages ago. |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 19:59:00 -
[620] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Skill changes are final. I love such statements. No explanation, no reasoning, just eat what we give you.
Did you consider how this skill changes + new modules affect usefulness of Astrometric Rangefinding level 5 (x8 skill) and Virtue set? I can answer: No, because the latter will become totally unneeded. Now everyone will be able to scan everything with skills at 4 and without spending billions on implants.
Also you missed a lot of other points in your replies and even the reasoning for DSP removal is poor because new system overlay doesn't give even a quarter of information DSP gave. Currently it doesn't even provide a list. |
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:01:00 -
[621] - Quote
Yeah they said they are going back to 8.
The fact they chose 7 is revealing though. It shows they didn't understand the importance of Astrometrics V and the options the DSP, extra probe, and different probe arrangements provided. Ask any decent prober about scanning and they would have mentioned 8. |
Tritanium Amaranth
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:02:00 -
[622] - Quote
So, played around a bit with these this afternoon.
1) Please allow us to select what formation is the default for our probes, specifically when launching the probes by activating the probe launcher module.
2) Putting all the probes defaulted to centered at the sun is... okay if you're just kinda derping along scanning for sigs, but severely non-optimal for combat scanning. Please consider defaulting their position to your ship's current position?
3) The new interface showing sigs in space is pretty, but ultimately feels useless and I'd prefer to turn it off for a number of reasons:
- It's not clear from the current implementation that CCP realized that scouts spend more time in the solar system map than the in-space view.
- Therefore, making effective use of this information requires you to constantly flip back between the in-space view and the solar system map, at least as many times as the number of signatures you're scanning down.
- Finally, to generate a list of signatures, you still have to either drop probes and scan at max range, or (for anomalies) use the ship scanner just as before. (And after I do this, now the solar system map view is populated, too, which is the view I'm actually using!) So I really haven't saved any time or number of UI interactions to get the same level of information.
In conclusion, a couple use cases have been made much easier, to the detriment of all the nuance that was there before.
- Scanning down sites to run is much quicker and more painless. - Combat scanning down ~gank targets~ is now much quicker. - Advanced combat scanning for non-gank PVP is much more difficult/painful * Specifically, using multiple probe formations, including formations where mixes of core and combat probes are used * Manipulating a target's perception of where you are or what you're doing by controlling the types and numbers of probes he sees on D-SCAN and their ranges - Scanning down and organizing large numbers of signatures is significantly more annoying * Can't cut and paste signature lists, although this may be fixed * The information previously provided by Deep Space Probes with regard to sites is now only present in the new UI, so the cut+paste fix won't restore this information to the list fully
|
Zu'ferna
Astral Horizons Rock Paper Lasers
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:02:00 -
[623] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Zu'ferna wrote:I wholeheartedly agree. Don't take away our deep space probes unless this new overlay will do exactly what deep space probes do. DSPs are easymode 256AU D-scan. I thought you don't want to have dumbed down things in eve. Sending mixed signals much?
Deep space probes are a part of the game already. You may think of them as easy mode, and they may give a easy full scan of a system, but you still have to launch them, and hide them, if you're doing so, and you still have to sort through it. Not that any of this is hard, but it's not as easy as this system overlay. If this overlay worked like a DPS probe, you'd have all this info when you jumped into a wormhole, before you even had to drop jump cloak. That's easy mode. DPSs are a tool. A tool used by a lot of experienced players. If you want to remove DPSs, fine, do so, but keep the system scanner as it is, if not remove it too. Don't replace them with something easier. Just remove them, make it actually hard. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1020
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:02:00 -
[624] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed. this is not a good thing. the DSP was a necessary opportunity cost. if you wanted to know what's "really" going on in the system, you had to invest into astometrics V and a probe launcher. now that everyone instantly knows all the sigs, the universe shifts from being "the great unknown" to "that useless thing between the sigs".
Quote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. this way of thinking is exactly wrong. just because one use case is prevalent, it does not mean that it's ok to remove the less popular use cases. that would be the very definition of killing the sand box and that is why people are so upset.
all in all, your reaction to the criticism is better thna many had feared, so kudos to you noble sirs and ma'ams.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:06:00 -
[625] - Quote
CCP seem to be forgetting that what makes EvE eve as aptly pointed out in the keynotes by the boss himself is that the UNINTENDED STUFF THAT HAPPENS IS WHAT MAKES EvE GREAT , the Jetcan totally amazing BUT unintended, DSP-¦s totally unintended intel gathering but so widely used now, so following the logic Jetcan days are numbered.
CCP did stuff, players found other stiff it could also do that was far more usefull
Grav sites visible, well why not get rid of all asteroid belts NOW like the Ice belts, but leave non resident ore belts as only probable as present, that seems far more logical and along the development of the game than the current abortion.
yeah the mini hacking games, how about a blog detailing how the fk they work, its like a tablet game designed for a cat at present, takes up too much space , No Inventory loot button on open cargo at archelology site cans and System hack failed Loot jettison imminent, so is loot ment to appear in space?
more to come... |
Haulie Berry
662
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:08:00 -
[626] - Quote
Alexander the Great wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Skill changes are final. I love such statements. No explanation, no reasoning, just eat what we give you. Did you consider how this skill changes + new modules affect usefulness of Astrometric Rangefinding level 5 ( x8 skill) and Virtue set? I can answer: No, because the latter will become totally unneeded.
The latter is already completely unneeded for anything except busting out a ship that has been hardened against probing, and you know what? Busting out a ship that has been hardened against probing SHOULDN'T require billions in implants.
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:10:00 -
[627] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote: this is not a good thing. the DSP was a necessary opportunity cost. if you wanted to know what's "really" going on in the system, you had to invest into astometrics V and a probe launcher. now that everyone instantly knows all the sigs, the universe shifts from being "the great unknown" to "that useless thing between the sigs".
Pretty much. Unless you've got local. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
305
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:14:00 -
[628] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed. Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. Switching the probe result UI from raw table to a progress bar meant that we lost this much loved functionality. We are working on getting it back. Quote: Sort results by distance
This is coming back. Quote: Launching fewer probes
We are changing it so that you can launch any number of probes you want (up to the maximum of 8).
GREAT! Well done CCP. All really good changes which will address most of the problems people are having in the current system. I am really pleased to see the addition of the 8th probe again. And also being able to copy results as a table again is a really nice change. Well done for listening to the feedback.
Will these changes also included allowing cosmic signatures to appear on the scan overview also? It is really annoying having to pan round in space to identify them. This kind of feature should be available on your ships on board computers. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:17:00 -
[629] - Quote
Zu'ferna wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Zu'ferna wrote:I wholeheartedly agree. Don't take away our deep space probes unless this new overlay will do exactly what deep space probes do. DSPs are easymode 256AU D-scan. I thought you don't want to have dumbed down things in eve. Sending mixed signals much? A tool used by a lot of experienced players. If you want to remove DPSs, fine, do so, but keep the system scanner as it is, if not remove it too. Don't replace them with something easier. Just remove them, make it actually hard.
Wait, what. In the quote above you demanded that DSPs should only be removed when the overlay does exactly what they do now. Now you are saying that you don't want that. I'm sorry, I think I missed something. I'm ot a native English speaker, sorry.
The current system overlay scanner only shows that there is a signature and what seems like a very rough estimate on it's position. A WH scout can, with some little effort, check for new signatures to warn his corpmates in sites of possible new connections. Maybe CCP will reconsider and offer a (automatic?) list view (which I would approve) of the results. Or the scout just uses combat scanners, http://www.tigerears.org/2012/11/25/how-to-perform-a-blanket-scan-of-a-w-space-system-2/ is a very handy guide for using them to cover a system without being seen.
Overall I think with the iterations proposed (8th probe, drop probes one-by-one, have a list-view of sigs back) scanning is on a good way to be more fun. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:21:00 -
[630] - Quote
Alexander the Great wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Skill changes are final. I love such statements. No explanation, no reasoning, just eat what we give you. Did you consider how this skill changes + new modules affect usefulness of Astrometric Rangefinding level 5 ( x8 skill) and Virtue set? I can answer: No, because the latter will become totally unneeded. Now everyone will be able to scan everything with skills at 4 and without spending billions on implants.
I couldn't scan down low sec relics with all astrometric skills to 4 and full virtue set on my alt in a pilgrim with one grav rig. Someone else would have to do the math for me because i'm bad at it but i would assume its about the same as with a reasonable scan boat and no imps at level 4 skills.
Infact i could see the virtue imps becoming more popular. You can build a kickass scan boat in Odyssey, add the imps and you should be able to insta probe a lot of stuff. |
|
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:21:00 -
[631] - Quote
Speaking as a player who does wormholes and pretty much nothing else, here's my .02 isk...
I like: - being able to launch multiple probes at once - being able to click one button to get them into a preset formation - having modules for midslots to boost scanning abilities, though I think they may be somewhat overpowered and they render the Astrometrics support skills far less useful - the new look of the scan progress meter
I dislike: - HAVING to launch multiple probes at once, though reading back it looks like this is already being addressed - not being able to set my own preset formation, especially with mixed probe types (see next line) - not having deep space probes anymore :( 4 deeps and 4 combats was a great way to scan - the fact that Astrometrics V is pretty pointless now, if you're taking deep space probes away and giving massive bonuses available through midslot modules.
I have mixed emotions about: - making grav/ore sites show up with anoms. I've got nothing against giving the gankers a treat, but this will reduce wormhole mining, which reduces targets available in those wormholes, which makes me sad :( Also seems like this will make botmining easier in kspace. - altering the behavior of shift-drag and alt-drag for probes. moving all probes at once by default is ok, just takes some getting used to, but it feels a bit too much like "push buttan receive sigs" now. Dear god, am I becoming a bitter vet?
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1021
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:27:00 -
[632] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Daniel Plain wrote: this is not a good thing. the DSP was a necessary opportunity cost. if you wanted to know what's "really" going on in the system, you had to invest into astometrics V and a probe launcher. now that everyone instantly knows all the sigs, the universe shifts from being "the great unknown" to "that useless thing between the sigs".
Pretty much. Unless you've got local. local just tells you who is there, not what is there.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Akyla Dey
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:30:00 -
[633] - Quote
It seems that the logical progression here is that info from the overlay and 'the list' are going to end up being somehow combined, and available both in space and solar system views (and possibly the overview), since operating in two seperate systems is slow, counter intuitive and just a bit of a mess. My worry here is that instant intel becomes available by watching said list. While I don't think icons in space are any sort of replacement for a collated and concise list view (really? we need more stuff cluttering up space?), it does slow down the noticing of new sigs (which is obviously even more hand-holding than actively having to scan stuff - something I'm not really thrilled about).
Assuming that all this info is going to be combined and available in the final product, are there any plans in place to slow down the delivery of new sigs? Make no mistake, this is going to be a game changer for w-space. While I understand you wanting to attract new players and keep them around, know that null and w-space tends to be where players end up, and radically changing the dynamics there will impact both new and old players in the long run. Please, tread carefully and consider the long term implications. |
Garratam
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:31:00 -
[634] - Quote
It seems that the implants for the rangefinding skill doesn't work on Singularity.
My Scan alt has 65.2 scan strength with sister combat probes on Tranquility and only 64.5 on Singularity.
Tranquility values: 22*1.4*1.1*1.06*1.1*1.1*1.5=65.182 (Base strength * Cov. Ops Skill 4 * Sister's Launcher * Implant AR-806 * T1 Rig * T1 Rig * rangefinding skill 5)
Expected Singularity values: 22*1.4*1.1*1.06*1.1*1.1*1.25*1.25 = 67.898 (Base strength * Cov. Ops Skill 4 * Sister's Launcher * Implant AR-806 * T1 Rig * T1 Rig * rangefinding skill 5 * astrometrics skill 5)
However, the value shown in the Fitting Screen is only 64.5, i.e. 67.9 / 1.06. Ok only roughly, maybe there's a rounding step in the calculation on the server.
The calculation of the maximum deviation works fine, however there is a nerf of the deviation on Singularity, i.e.:
Tranquility values: 0.25 AU * 0.5 * 0.94 = 0.1175 AU (Base deviation * pinpointing skill 5 * Implant AP-606)
Singularity values: 0.25 AU * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.94 = 0.1322 AU (Base deviation * pinpointing skill 5 * astrometrics skill 5 * Implant AP-606)
So the deviation has been increased by 12.5% on Singularity. But that's not really surprising, as the net bonus of the 2 skills is now 0.5625 instead of 0.5 from the single pinpointing skill. I assume this is also the case for the acquisition skill but I cannot prove it as the time is not mentioned in the probe's info. |
Haulie Berry
664
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:35:00 -
[635] - Quote
Garratam wrote:It seems that the implants for the rangefinding skill doesn't work on Singularity.
My Scan alt has 65.2 scan strength with sister combat probes on Tranquility and only 64.5 on Singularity.
Tranquility values: 22*1.4*1.1*1.06*1.1*1.1*1.5=65.182 (Base strength * Cov. Ops Skill 4 * Sister's Launcher * Implant AR-806 * T1 Rig * T1 Rig * rangefinding skill 5)
Expected Singularity values: 22*1.4*1.1*1.06*1.1*1.1*1.25*1.25 = 67.898 (Base strength * Cov. Ops Skill 4 * Sister's Launcher * Implant AR-806 * T1 Rig * T1 Rig * rangefinding skill 5 * astrometrics skill 5)
However, the value shown in the Fitting Screen is only 64.5, i.e. 67.9 / 1.06. Ok only roughly, maybe there's a rounding step in the calculation on the server.
The calculation of the maximum deviation works fine, however there is a nerf of the deviation on Singularity, i.e.:
Tranquility values: 0.25 AU * 0.5 * 0.94 = 0.1175 AU (Base deviation * pinpointing skill 5 * Implant AP-606)
Singularity values: 0.25 AU * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.94 = 0.1322 AU (Base deviation * pinpointing skill 5 * astrometrics skill 5 * Implant AP-606)
So the deviation has been increased by 12.5% on Singularity. But that's not really surprising, as the net bonus of the 2 skills is now 0.5625 % instead of 0.5 % from the single pinpointing skill. I assume this is also the case for the acquisition skill but I cannot prove it as the time is not mentioned in the probe's info.
The time value is a property of the launcher and, yes, it works exactly the way you think it would/exactly the way deviation does.
|
Garratam
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:47:00 -
[636] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:
The time value is a property of the launcher and, yes, it works exactly the way you think it would/exactly the way deviation does.
So in summary, there is a buff of 4.2% of the scan strength (multiplicator of 1.25*1.25=1.5625 instead of 1.5), but a nerf of 12.5% of the scan deviation and scan time (assuming all scan skills at level 5). So that's why the new modules were introduced? |
Roel Yento
Black Rain Cartel
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 21:06:00 -
[637] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
What about being able to detect ships from 256au and the ships won't know you know they are around? These are great for large systems in wormholes. If the combat probes can replace this function i am fine with the dsp being gone. The new overlay doesn't give you ships so being able to keep tabs on a system from long range is gone. Was this an oversight or are we intended to have a bunch of combat probes out and hope no one sees them on dscan?
If the combat probes can go above 64 au and not go directly to the sun but placed before first scan, i'm sure i can make something work for this. It just makes it a lot more work when the dsp covered this feature. |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 21:15:00 -
[638] - Quote
Octoven wrote:If you can mix match your probes for scanning great for you, but you are one of the few people who I know who does. Why? Because you are using a probe with a lower scan strength with a probe with a higher scan strength. Thats like trying to put diesel fuel in a gasoline engine. It wont work very well.
Your statement makes no sense, and you are wrong. Combining probes yields amazing efficiency in sifting through large quantities of sigs in wspace, and has nothing at all in common with internal combustion engines.
(And diesel in a gas engine can work fine, depending on the engine's tolerances. Gas in a diesel engine is more risky, as the diesel helps lubricate parts of the engine, and the gas will strip that lubrication.) |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 21:15:00 -
[639] - Quote
Roel Yento wrote:If the combat probes can go above 64 au and not go directly to the sun but placed before first scan, i'm sure i can make something work for this. It just makes it a lot more work when the dsp covered this feature.
The probes still appear around your ship, you can easily check that on your overview.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 21:37:00 -
[640] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
But isn't emergent behavior, when we find a way to do things in the game outside of what you intended, exactly what you guys love and encourage? I don't know anyone in any wormhole corp who uses DSPs the way you just described. We use them in conjunction with combat probes for a rapid, efficient means of locating targets to shoot. Please do not remove them, as they ARE needed. |
|
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:01:00 -
[641] - Quote
I can appreciate the changes made to link all the probes together, despite being someone who actually enjoys the current scanning process, as it removes some of the perceived tedium of resolving multiple signatures across many systems.
However, scanning probes are not used only for resolving signatures but also for hunting ships. And scanning in a hunt is much more of an art, as practice culminates in being able to resolve your target with just a single scan. But the way the probes all move together in the new scanning interfaces rather interferes with the process detailed here: http://www.tigerears.org/2012/04/17/how-to-hunt-in-w-space-using-d-scan/.
The floating probe boxes are used as datum points in the system map in conjunction with d-scan to get a good range and bearing of the target to be resolved in one scan. It looks like it may be possible to do the same with the new interface, but with all the probes clustered together it could get messy, particularly with all of those range spheres so close to each other. And moving one probe out of the cluster is more fiddly than it was, and then moving all of the others too could be painful, particularly if a datum probe gets moved accidentally, perhaps by simply changing its range.
Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.
A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available. |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:29:00 -
[642] - Quote
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
so much bullshit ccp, sorry to say that, but your overlay is just annoying and pretty much useless, the reason we want dps back is cause we have the whole system covered with 1 probe and dont miss a new sig, your useless overlay doesnt show us the whole system without moving the camera around all time, wasting time plus risk to miss a new sig, we dont want that, so give us dps back
also since i didnt see feedback from you guys, keep alt instead alt + shift, no need for a new shortcut |
Rahvin Dex
Rumors Of Survival The Nightingales of Hades
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:30:00 -
[643] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
DSP - Navigating wormhole space
First, let me explain how you navigate wormhole space with DSP, and then you might understand what an ordeal this is without DSP's.
You have all seen the swift and bitter links by now, and understand that a single DSP is used to let you know the base signature strength of wormholes. This is a HUGE deal when it comes to navigating WH's.
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.html
Say your in a Class 5 wormhole, and want to find a connection to other class 5's (or in my case nullsec connections). From the lists at swift and bitter you see that the signatures your looking for has a base strength of 0,20%. So you do one scan, and ignore EVERYTHING that does not have cirka 0,20% on your scan. Suddenly you have ignored about 75% of the signatures that you dont want. The autoscan does not replace this as it just lets you know its a wormhole, and not which class the wormhole is.
Now here is the kicker Some wormholes have up to 30 signatures in them, if not more!! It's soul crushing to go through all of them. I dont know if there is a max amount of connections a single wormhole can have, but I'm fairly sure I have had upwards to 10 in some. And those were desired conncetions, so its not even counting those wormhole signatures I 'ignored'.
So by just looking at the signature strength of a signature you can deduce alot of information, if you have the knowledge (or link to that knowledge, lol). This also removes a huge amount of time spent scanning down signatures to see if its what you want, repeatedly. Removing this is like taking the colour out of a painting.
All of This is just a part of what makes exploration a very deep proffesion to get into. Its very rewarding once its mastered and developed into a talent. Pilots with the knowledge and the know how are a huge asset to fleets and groups of players. The removal of the signature strength, DSP and other changes people have brought up, takes away a depth to exploration that the dev team does not seem to realize. So I quote again:
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
You have missed the point of DSP's CCP Tallest. Perhaps that was the orignal intent, but they have developed into something far more.
The fix is a matter of slapping on a number with signature strength on those shiny bars and letting us have our DSP's. Those who wants to grow as an explorer will find its uses. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:31:00 -
[644] - Quote
Ok, my feedback so far:
Probe Scanning:
- 8 probe launcher - is a must
- launching 1 probe - is a must
- probe recovery on jump/dock must be optional - is a must
- top table headers like probe N; size; range and bottom table headers like sig name; type; strength - are needed (for sorting by name/type/strength and so on)
if we could save our own formations that would be great and whoever will do it will become CCP Masterpiece
Sensor Overlay: (because DSP)
- If Sensor Overlay is a DSP substitution please make that you don't need to spin your camera around to see all of the sigs (or add all of the sigs in the scanner table bottom window)
Exploration site signature name changes (from Radar to Data Sites; from Ladar to Gas Sites and so on) I don't really get why you did that. Were those names extremely sophisticated and hard to remember for new players, no I do not believe they were. Were they cool, brought more sci-fi feel and immersion, yes they did. You made this all astonishing work with system jump transition, undock without loading bars to make your players more immersed. Then changed the most simple things that gave your players this immersion and sci-fi feel for years I do not get that. So please rename our Radar/Gravimetric etc. signatures back. Pretty please
Bugs: (I will post it here, cause I don't know where to post this) some wrecks become blue all of a sudden (feature/bug?) |
Joker Dronemaster
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:37:00 -
[645] - Quote
Anita1 wrote: The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
so much bullshit ccp, sorry to say that, but your overlay is just annoying and pretty much useless, the reason we want dps back is cause we have the whole system covered with 1 probe and dont miss a new sig, your useless overlay doesnt show us the whole system without moving the camera around all time, wasting time plus risk to miss a new sig, we dont want that, so give us dps back
also since i didnt see feedback from you guys, keep alt instead alt + shift, no need for a new shortcut
This.......... all of it. |
QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc.
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:42:00 -
[646] - Quote
Sorry if this has been asked before, not wanting to read 33 pages of this thread. (Yes I am that lazy) Is anyone else not seeing any scannable sigs of anomalies at all? I expected to start in my wormhole because of the server update, but started in 6-c. Form there I am flying to amarr then jita, then rens, then dodi. Scanning every system along the way (except jita of course). I am not finding any signatures at all. |
Rahvin Dex
Rumors Of Survival The Nightingales of Hades
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:43:00 -
[647] - Quote
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:
I did NOT train Astrometics V for 15 days just to get some extra scan strength/deviation whatever. I want my DSP BACK, NOW! |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
742
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:50:00 -
[648] - Quote
My 1st impression.
1. Still getting used to it, as I had gotten used to my 8 probe technique, but it would be nice to have at least a small icon to where the other probes are at all time. Even though we see their scan range, its still would be more graphically intuitive to have at least a small dot present where they are centered at.
2. I can't see any timers to how long I have left on my probes. Is it there and I'm just missing it, or was it removed completely?
yk |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:57:00 -
[649] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote: 2. I can't see any timers to how long I have left on my probes. Is it there and I'm just missing it, or was it removed completely?
Probably removed, that might explain probe recovery on system jump/dock. |
Space Wanderer
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:59:00 -
[650] - Quote
Another issue with scanning that probably nobody noticed (yet)
I did some more tests. Particularly I tested the scanning mechanism and formula, to check whether it was somehow changed. The formula doesn't seem to be changed, but I observed another issue that aims at dumbing down scanning beyond any reasonable limit.
I think that we are all aware that when we try to scan a target using only three probes, the obtained result should consist in two dots (each one with half signal strength). This is as the rules of geometry dictate that it should be.
Now it turns out that scanning a signature with only three probes on SISI returns only one dot, albeit at 50% of strength. This is ANOTHER dumbing down of system, and breaks completely any attempt of verisimilitude of the scanning system. There is NO WAY that it could be justified by any possible law of geometry. It has been inserted just to make things simple, because there is no way that a UI no matter how advanced, would be able to understand where the signal really is.
I have no idea whether this issue is a bug, or it is by design. I hope for the former, because if it were the latter this would be ANOTHER point where CCP really dropped the ball. To be on the safe side I submitted it as Bug Report #157705. Please CCP, tell me that this just a bug, and not by design. |
|
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
927
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:02:00 -
[651] - Quote
Still trying to figure out what is going to happen with industry upgrade ore sites. I couldn't find any systems with an industry upgrade to test out how that would work. I did however find a wh and the grav belt showed up as a combat anomaly, which I just warped to without probes.
I'm assuming that you go into a system and the system scanner will find the grav sites including industry upgrade belts. This isn't going to be really a great idea imo. Sure, more conflict, yadi yada...but combat pilots are not always present to defend a system. Furthermore, hotdroppers will have a field day with this. It'll effectively stunt mining in a noticable way. Maybe this is intended, maybe not. In wormholes, that will kill mining there in a big way. Is that intended?
In any case, I would be ok with this change if standard static belts were changed to anomolies that require scanning down as well. That way anyone that comes into a system will have to sort through several belts (or randomly checking one) to find someone. This still basically forces people to mine in macks (no more jetcanning) but it would at least provide a bit more protection to what seems to be right now a very one sided system coming. Either that or expect more gates to be bubbled up the wazzu all over the place. Is that intended?
Finally, someone did mention that exploration should be about finding riches, etc. Sure maybe a industry upgrade belt is so common now that it's not really special. But what about ark and bistot deposits? While I know that in highsec people complain about this but isn't that what exploration is supposed to be about? If I find an ark and bistot deposit in null and we are in a crappy mining system, it's something we stop what we are doing and go mine it out. At a minimum, can't we get that to be something we have to scan down?
All of these changes seem to be really a blanket change and I feel like it could be a lot more dynamic and interesting than it's turning out so far. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
coolzero
The Replicators Orchestrated Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:14:00 -
[652] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Still trying to figure out what is going to happen with industry upgrade ore sites. I couldn't find any systems with an industry upgrade to test out how that would work. I did however find a wh and the grav belt showed up as a combat anomaly, which I just warped to without probes.
I'm assuming that you go into a system and the system scanner will find the grav sites including industry upgrade belts. This isn't going to be really a great idea imo. Sure, more conflict, yadi yada...but combat pilots are not always present to defend a system. Furthermore, hotdroppers will have a field day with this. It'll effectively stunt mining in a noticable way. Maybe this is intended, maybe not. In wormholes, that will kill mining there in a big way. Is that intended?
In any case, I would be ok with this change if standard static belts were changed to anomolies that require scanning down as well. That way anyone that comes into a system will have to sort through several belts (or randomly checking one) to find someone. This still basically forces people to mine in macks (no more jetcanning) but it would at least provide a bit more protection to what seems to be right now a very one sided system coming. Either that or expect more gates to be bubbled up the wazzu all over the place. Is that intended?
Finally, someone did mention that exploration should be about finding riches, etc. Sure maybe a industry upgrade belt is so common now that it's not really special. But what about ark and bistot deposits? While I know that in highsec people complain about this but isn't that what exploration is supposed to be about? If I find an ark and bistot deposit in null and we are in a crappy mining system, it's something we stop what we are doing and go mine it out. At a minimum, can't we get that to be something we have to scan down?
All of these changes seem to be really a blanket change and I feel like it could be a lot more dynamic and interesting than it's turning out so far.
i wonder the same...i couldnt find any upgraded system in nullsec to see any grav spawn from upgraded system so dunno if they show up at all or they show up but needs to be scanned down or that they show up and warpable to directly (the last one i would really hate as you need sov to install upgrades in the system you need to stay for a while and mine the crap out of it to gain a level and gets you then nothing as reward and you could just mine the belts instead) |
Alli Othman
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:23:00 -
[653] - Quote
It's clear that CCP doesn't understand the use of the DSPs, but it's even clearer that they just don't give a damn and are going to ignore legitimate user feedback from those that know their system more intimately than they do. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1826
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:24:00 -
[654] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. Thank you :) |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
742
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:32:00 -
[655] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote: Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
Maybe won't make it into the current expansion, but you could always give the players the ability to save their own formations. They deploy the probes and position them how they desire and then "Save As" so that they can easily launch their preferred formation at will.
On a side note: Anyone know if the scanning modules follow the typical stacking penalty formulas? Their description implies that they do, but I don't want to assume.
yk |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
130
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:37:00 -
[656] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed. While this may have been the intention at release, since then players have found many uses for them as detailed on many posts in this thread. Removing them removes this emergent behavior for no real gain.
What is gained by removing dsp's? Nothing.
What is lost by removing dsp's? Obviously something according to the responses in this thread. Myself, I've used dsp's in place of combat probes on a number of occasions. Other players have found even more creative uses for them (e.g. swiftandbitter).
So: why remove something, something that the community obviously uses, for no gain? |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:45:00 -
[657] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
Most people, well the flexibility of the current system has distinct advantages over the cookie cutter approach fit only for rookie storyline mission arcs.
Daily people run several systems, drop one probe see how many sites exist, they then find them, they bookmark results they find but will ignore and do the sites that interest them without making bookmarks and move on. Later the same day or the day after (or even day after), they will re enter the system, and warp to those ignored book marks and drop a probe if the site is there (or delete bookmark if not) so they can be eliminated from the new results. As all signatures are within 4AU of a planet a simple 8AU scan size hits every thing in that's planets sphere, this reduced the time taken to cover a system. This will not be possible now unless you make launchers have a single probe launch function.
Also with level V skills, experience and decent equipment, the options you have as to probe deployment can vary greatly depending on where in the universe you are, just dropping 8 probes at once just screams i cant be arsed to play a game and think, i need a quick i win button/option. |
MdZt
Starsoul Corporation Brotherhood of Starbridge
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:05:00 -
[658] - Quote
FAIL > give my 8th probe back > give my DSP back > give my %% back. no color bars > let me save personal scan formations |
Jenn Rose
The Flaming Sideburn's Ineluctable.
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:05:00 -
[659] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote: Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
CCP Tallest wrote: We are changing it so that you can launch any number of probes you want (up to the maximum of 8).
Good, I have used only 4 probes for 5 years. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:07:00 -
[660] - Quote
with dsp i also could find out at once which were the gas and grav site with the highest value to grind in c5/c6 wh.
this will also go down with bz removing dsp . so dont !!! |
|
MdZt
Starsoul Corporation Brotherhood of Starbridge
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:09:00 -
[661] - Quote
What about 'unscannable' ships. Before the patch some specially fitted ships required the Virtue Set to be scanned. Looks like the Virtues are not needed anymore? |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
742
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:35:00 -
[662] - Quote
No offense to the devs, but I've always felt that Jack Miton's method was the best scanning method (8 probes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag
Allows both wide area scans and pinpoint scans simultaneously. I think I still prefer it as the scanning method of choice.
yk |
Ali Aras
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
258
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:45:00 -
[663] - Quote
Penny Ibramovic wrote: Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.
A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.
Not a dev, obviously, but I really like this suggestion. It also makes it easy for you to build your own formation and then lock it together so you can move it quickly, and if there's a neat lock button (maybe on that radial menu, mmm?) then you can get access to both move in formation *and* move separately without any super-secret hotkeys you don't know about if you don't ask a friend. http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:54:00 -
[664] - Quote
It would be nice to be able to change the default AU size of the pinpoint formation. Having it default to 4 aus can still get sigs just barley outside of probing range if you are cenetered on the celestial |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:13:00 -
[665] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Does it make sense for these to be seperated?... why the seperation of the two types of scans? One scans for anoms and the others ships, but realistically, why can't a scan just be a scan? Its weird that the scanner is autoupdated and the directional scan is still manual...
D-scan gives much more information and that information is more important for survival than a list of anomalies. Making d-scan automatically cycle would make so many things so fricking awfully casual.
Roberto Duggano wrote:Add an infopanel for scan results. Call it exploration. Then all is well. IMHO If you mean a new window, then nnnoooouuuu. If a new tab.. well, how it can be better than returning results the old way?
CCP Paradox wrote: Intended, the formations will always be centered there by default. There are some changes to come, which we have read feedback from others.
Then the camera should also be centered on the probes when you close the map for a moment and then reopen it. Last time I checked (yesterday) the camera would center on my ship. It's uncomfortable in big systems.
Also, I didn't read the whole 30+ pages, sorry if someone already mentioned this: - there is no 'time left' column in the scanning window, so are the probes "immortal" now? - scanning radius isn't showing on the map, and in the scanning window it reflects radius change only when scan cycle is done - I mean you can't see the radius while you're changing it
And one more thing, when you scan down a signature and ignore it in your scanning window it doesn't disappear from the overlay. Is it intended? If yes, why? OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:16:00 -
[666] - Quote
Penny Ibramovic wrote: Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.
A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.
Actually it's already available, look better.
Hint: hold SHIFT. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:22:00 -
[667] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:No offense to the devs, but I've always felt that Jack Miton's method was the best scanning method (8 probes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0AgAllows both wide area scans and pinpoint scans simultaneously. I think I still prefer it as the scanning method of choice. yk
This is how I scan but with DSP and combats. Not 8/1 but 8/2. Changing 1 probe with all hightlighted will maintain the ratio. Then alt drag to bring the probes in.
Can ID 40+ sigs in under 30 mins. Actually more sigs is easier because you'll ID more per scan.
But emergent gameplay is irrelevant.
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:04:00 -
[668] - Quote
ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:The 'problem' with the sensor overlay, is that you don't have the information available at a glance.
Since you now make anoms (and grav sites) more easily available, heck, even signatures can been pinpointed quite well without using probes; using DSPs would give a very clear list of changes in your system. A perfect defensive mechanism.
The DPSs and the System Scanner lets you easily filter out all the things that you trust. But with the Sensor Overlay you have to keep panning around and around, to see whether a new wormhole opened up, meaning there's a possible threat.
Yes, I am talking about W-space.
Removing DSPs makes things a lot harder actually. Sure, new players don't have the skills to use them. But I trained a very long time to be able to use them, making it easier to see what's going on in our W-system. And now you take that away.
The Sensor Overlay looks really nice. I'm not sure how Fozzie(?) described the wish for it; more realistic? But nothing beats having a single list with results. And that's how I'd see it when I'd be in a space ship too, on some panel, or a 3d-hologram of the system;; the System Scanner.
I would hope 20,000 years into the future we would be beyond listings and more into 3D immersion >.> |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:05:00 -
[669] - Quote
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote:Kadl wrote:Ischie wrote:Deep Space Probes Deep space probes give info on ships, signatures, and structures. Please tell me that the new system scanner gives the same info and also has a range of 64+ au and you can remove deep space probes. if not, you will be removing a feature that works well within the game currently and it will just make wormhole god Bob mad. The new system scanner does not give the same info, but it does have an infinite range. Infinite? No.
Infinite...uhh yes. The range is not limited to 32, 64, or 256 AUs it literally is infinite and will detect any signature within the system no matter how far out they are. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:12:00 -
[670] - Quote
Exodus 3D Gidrine wrote:I can load 20 Probes into the "Expanded Probelauncher II" and im launching 7 probes in a formation.
So i can launch and recall 2 formations. Then i have 6 probes left in the launcher. And Im not able to launch these 6 Probes.
So please set the max-value to 21 (3*7 probes) instead of 20 probes.
This was confirmed in an earlier post...like page 28 i think. Players will have the option to choose 1-8 probes to launch if you dont use the preset formations. So no need to adjust the capacity. |
|
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:17:00 -
[671] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
there are few things that, the sensor overlay CANNOT replace DSP
1. DSP can FIND if any structure / ship / drones &probe , sensor overlay cannot show them
2. Launching DSP and press scan can show all signal ID in the scanner window. Sensor overlay just mark them on screen, how can we count if there's so many signals?
3. DSP can also pinpoint ships (BB for example), the awareness of DSP and combat probe is quite extreme
4. http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/ you should know what is it, This helps us to figure out which signals should we scan which is worthless
We cannot see sensor overlay can do those things list above, so we should not delete DSP
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:17:00 -
[672] - Quote
Rahvin Dex wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
DSP - Navigating wormhole spaceFirst, let me explain how you navigate wormhole space with DSP, and then you might understand what an ordeal this is without DSP's. You have all seen the swift and bitter links by now, and understand that a single DSP is used to let you know the base signature strength of wormholes. This is a HUGE deal when it comes to navigating WH's. http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/wormhole.htmlSay your in a Class 5 wormhole, and want to find a connection to other class 5's (or in my case nullsec connections). From the lists at swift and bitter you see that the signatures your looking for has a base strength of 0,20%. So you do one scan, and ignore EVERYTHING that does not have cirka 0,20% on your scan. Suddenly you have ignored about 75% of the signatures that you dont want. The autoscan does not replace this as it just lets you know its a wormhole, and not which class the wormhole is. Now here is the kicker Some wormholes have up to 30 signatures in them, if not more!! It's soul crushing to go through all of them. I dont know if there is a max amount of connections a single wormhole can have, but I'm fairly sure I have had upwards to 10 in some. And those were desired conncetions, so its not even counting those wormhole signatures I 'ignored'. So by just looking at the signature strength of a signature you can deduce alot of information, if you have the knowledge (or link to that knowledge, lol). This also removes a huge amount of time spent scanning down signatures to see if its what you want, repeatedly. Removing this is like taking the colour out of a painting. All of This is just a part of what makes exploration a very deep proffesion to get into. Its very rewarding once its mastered and developed into a talent. Pilots with the knowledge and the know how are a huge asset to fleets and groups of players. The removal of the signature strength, DSP and other changes people have brought up, takes away a depth to exploration that the dev team does not seem to realize. So I quote again: CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all.
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
You have missed the point of DSP's CCP Tallest. Perhaps that was the orignal intent, but they have developed into something far more. The fix is a matter of slapping on a number with signature strength on those shiny bars and letting us have our DSP's. Those who wants to grow as an explorer will find its uses.
Right sooo you would stand behind those who say scanning has been dumbed down and is too fast and easy to do, yet you would love to keep the probe in the game that does exactly that type of action? |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 04:16:00 -
[673] - Quote
all CCP had to do to improve the probing experience was to allow a user to define his own pattern in which the probes are launched. that is it. nothing more. nothing less.
what do we get? this terrible overlay (that i can guarantee 99% of players will never turn on, i mean look at it, it is ridiculous, flipping your camera all around to look for sigs) and the removal of deep space probes.
it makes you wonder if the devs working on this ever played the PVP aspect of this game and hunted other players down using probes. i feel that CCP has lost its focus. i felt that with the walking in stations. i feel it again.
i am waiting for the expected response from CCP declaring that they understand the PVP aspect of Deep Space Probes and feel that it was an exploit or something like that to use them for these PVP purposes(and therefore there removal is justified in their eyes), even though Deep Space Probes only fit in a combat launcher (in other words they were made for ship scanning - but lets ignore that fact).
i can only guess that the DSP removal is a further step toward changing eve from the harsh game it was to something extremely carebear friendly, and this is just another small step in that direction.
|
Flux Astraeus
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 05:06:00 -
[674] - Quote
God just read through the changes. I dunno what they are thinking here but to me they are terrible! The only thing I see here is they are making scanning easier for the beginner and budding explorer, but for a scanning vet they are making it worse. I know CCP have good intentions and usually they are good at implementing positive changes, but in this instance what the hell? It would appear the changes are not being looked at from both sides of the spectrum. I'm all for new players advancing quickly there skills but you don't seem to have taken the seasoned explorer into account at all here? 1. Removing Deep Space Probes, wrong they are very useful, now how are you going to differentiate quickly what sigs to scan down? 2.7 probes at once, with no option to split formations , omg what are they thinking? 3. No 8th probe , there goes pvp Multi location scanning. 4.Set probe formations without the ability to manipulate positions or probe amount is like waving to everyone in system look Im here now.Not to mention the other obvious draw backs from this alone, NO! 4.Reducing the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.WTF so now there is no clear elite cryptography skill set as it is now easier to train up max skill set, so all those ppl that have all Astrometric skills out to V just get nurfed out? Anyway I for one am not liking any of these changes myself so far. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
311
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 06:00:00 -
[675] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote:Penny Ibramovic wrote: Here is my request: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.
A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.
Not a dev, obviously, but I really like this suggestion. It also makes it easy for you to build your own formation and then lock it together so you can move it quickly, and if there's a neat lock button (maybe on that radial menu, mmm?) then you can get access to both move in formation *and* move separately without any super-secret hotkeys you don't know about if you don't ask a friend. You can already do this on the current version. If you press shift it allows you to manipulate the precise position of the probes, and when you let go you can move all the probes as a group. People really need to test this out on Tranq, or at least spend a little bit of time figuring out the system before jumping to conclusions and posting them on the forum. This is incorrect and I can see a lot of people repeating this misinformation throughout the whole thread.
I was one of the biggest critic of this change, but CCP is moving in the right direction now with allowing multiple probes (ei 8 probes) again. The DSP thing is the only real issue now, but I think its just one of those things we will have to forget about even though it did offer some nice options. The only thing they need to fix now is an option to display all the sigs on the scanning overview and I will congratulate CCP on a job well done with these scanning changes. |
Robert Fish
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 06:12:00 -
[676] - Quote
Please keep the deep space probe for all of the reasons that people have stated and most importantly so legacy deep safes can still be found.
To make the old skills still relevant make the new mods require the appropriate skill to 5 so Scan Acquisition Array II needs Astrometrics Acquisition V Scan Rangefinding Array II needs Astrometrics Rangefinding V & Scan Pinpointing Array II needs Astrometrics pinpointing V.
Thank you for separating combat sites and wormholes into their own scan group it is a much needed change, will be interesting to see if less wormholes get 'activated' now as people skip them while looking for plex's. |
Reaper Chambers
INVARIANT TENSOR
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 06:50:00 -
[677] - Quote
So, with the skill modifier reduction, those of us that have trained that up quite high will get those sp back... Right?
I mean after all, removing the dsp gimps the whole exploration process enough already, so please give back the sp that went into the skills while they still had the high modifiers. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 07:04:00 -
[678] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Rahvin Dex wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed.
You have missed the point of DSP's CCP Tallest. Perhaps that was the orignal intent, but they have developed into something far more. The fix is a matter of slapping on a number with signature strength on those shiny bars and letting us have our DSP's. Those who wants to grow as an explorer will find its uses. Right sooo you would stand behind those who say scanning has been dumbed down and is too fast and easy to do, yet you would love to keep the probe in the game that does exactly that type of action?
Ah but its a time and skill sink (more $ for CCP) and adds to sandbox game play, you cannot fly a Battleship with Frigate skills, u sink your time into it for the rewards, same with exploration, |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 07:09:00 -
[679] - Quote
meanwhile on another thead:
Oxandrolone wrote:I was at the security round-table at fanfest and apparently there was a client injection that did this, they discovered people were using it and that it was really awesome so they built there own feature and implemented it :D
The injection did what, launch a set number of probes and place them? If that was the case why in hells name did not CCP just steal the idea and add it to the existing code, make a couple of extra buttons for the functionality and build additional shiny, shiny for the masses on that?
If CCP had gone this route, the on-board scanner would be the overlay scanner, it could list as well as show in space the sites below DED 3 rating, its not complex as the data is only retrieved once from the server and used twice on the client, this gives both don-¦t change and oh new shiny camps what they require. |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 08:03:00 -
[680] - Quote
After multiple tries with separate changing of scan ranges I came to conclusion that the scanner must have an option to save player-made formations. Not just save the last one, but let us choose between 2 or more custom formations. Otherwise it's too dumb and strict. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
|
Rammix
FreeWorkers
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 08:10:00 -
[681] - Quote
I say it almost everywhere and repeat here: Eve needs more customizable settings throughout its all UI, in-game. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 08:40:00 -
[682] - Quote
Ok, keep the DSP then but make signature signal strength completely random. |
Darth Fett
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:03:00 -
[683] - Quote
Why any changes in last updates so brainless? Launching probes - hardcoded 7 probes group - wtf? You can scan everything with 4 probse but now you cannot launch it - so if you have only 4 probes in WH - you stuck. Good change - allow to set launch group size - (1..8). Removing deep space probe - no comment, monkeys that agree it just do not know how to use it. Hardcoded formation (1 ok 1 useless) - allow users to make their own formations and save it. New scan modules - you know how to balance it? Ship signal cap remain at old value? Now best scanner ship - scorpion with 8 meds? Modules not need, may be just rigs for scan speed+deviation. Interface changes - more useless animations, less usefull data. Designed for monkeys.
|
Rammix
FreeWorkers
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:18:00 -
[684] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Ok, keep the DSP then but make signature signal strength completely random. DSP is now not needed for signature sorting. Now it can be useful only if you want to search for ships on deep safe spots far beyond the last planet's orbit. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:26:00 -
[685] - Quote
Darth Fett wrote:Why any changes in last updates so brainless? Launching probes - hardcoded 7 probes group - wtf? You can scan everything with 4 probse but now you cannot launch it - so if you have only 4 probes in WH - you stuck. Good change - allow to set launch group size - (1..8). Removing deep space probe - no comment, monkeys that agree it just do not know how to use it. Hardcoded formation (1 ok 1 useless) - allow users to make their own formations and save it. New scan modules - you know how to balance it? Ship signal cap remain at old value? Now best scanner ship - scorpion with 8 meds? Modules not need, may be just rigs for scan speed+deviation. Interface changes - more useless animations, less usefull data. Designed for monkeys.
Modules give more flexibility to dedicated scanners. Scorpion doesn't have bonus for scanning, it's not cloaky and not agile.
BTW, scanning tengu is sooo... tengu (damned ship, nerf it already).
2nd 'BTW': now the Covert Ops frig that has most med and low slots is the best. Hello to Helios. I think they should consider spreading med slot layout evenly for all Covert Ops. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Dominatus01
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:51:00 -
[686] - Quote
I don't post very often, but I've been in EvE a fair while.
I've been testing the new scanning system, and the new sites. As far as these alterations go, I can see the underlying reasons why CCP wanted to shake up the exploration system, but this is not the way to do it. Exploration was another career stream that players both new and old could take to further their enjoyment of the game. It was a career that required some SP training, practice, and a fair amount of player ability and knowledge. This new system will eradicate that potential completely. It's been dumbed down so much that it is no longer another challenging part of the game.
Exploration used to be fun because of the sense of achievement that you would get from scanning things down. You either came up with your own methods of scanning, or you researched online to find them. The new system has removed any ability needed - the diamond being a preset makes it idiot proof. The resizing and aspect ratio movement being automatic has also made it idiot proof and boring.
We used to try and train up our SP to use a decent cov ops scanning frigate with DSP's. The training time to use these was part of the build up of anticipation in our career mini stream. The rewards were that we got to see a whole system all at once - brilliant. We would practice for hours and days on end to get faster and faster at scanning things down, using finger skills and mouse skills to get more dextrous. The faster we scanned, the more chance we had of getting into and clearing a site before others arrived. It was all a fun part of the game....
Where's the sense of achievement or fun in this new system?
You enter a system and it's scanned for you, the results are gifted to even the most stupid of players. That is no challenge or fun.
A blind donkey with only 1 leg could use the new probe system to scan down an site in seconds. That is no challenge or fun.
The probe formation at all scanning ranges is adjusted for you with one simple mouse drag, as though we are infantile children! That is no challenge or fun.
When you arrive at a site all of the relics are grouped together? So, now there's no using MWD's or AB's and zipping around avoiding structures to try and frantically clear a site before others arrive! That again, is no challenge or fun. (granted, I hope that may just be on the test server for testing purposes. I sincerely hope so)
All in all, I hate to say it, but this new system completely sucks in my opinion. I can't be positive about a single aspect of it. It seems to be "change for the sake of change". Perhaps someone in the dev room is trying to justify their employment, idk? What I do know is that in one fell swoop, you are going to remove a complete segment of mine, and many other players playing experience. I use exploration currently to continue my enjoyment of the game when I am bored with other aspects of EvE. The process of flying around, and the scanning system was a good part of the fun, finding sites quickly and getting in there before others was an immense challenge.
I appreciate that changes might have been needed for the combat scanning side of things. I appreciate that devs didn't necessarily like the DSP charts with sig numbers that many of us used. This, however, was not the way to fix it. Not in any way, shape, or form. This new system is something that will turn many, many players OFF exploration in the long term, not encourage it. I implore you CCP to have a good rethink about introducing this new system. It is going to take out of the game one of the integral mini-professions that we have come to enjoy. I know certainly that this is going to reduce my playing time. The time I would have spent exploring as a change from normal activities, I will now simply spend offline, playing something else. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:57:00 -
[687] - Quote
Reaper Chambers wrote:So, with the skill modifier reduction, those of us that have trained that up quite high will get those sp back... Right?
They don't change the skill modifier, please don't spread lies.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 10:16:00 -
[688] - Quote
Rammix wrote:DSP is now not needed for signature sorting. Now it can be useful only if you want to search for ships on deep safe spots far beyond the last planet's orbit.
Maybe you are right, could not test it myself tho, because my mirror on Singularity is somehow old (like almost 4M SP less), do not have the scanning skills (and all-in-one ship) I posses on Tranquility now :( |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 10:46:00 -
[689] - Quote
Not sure if this is the right place for this glitch.. http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6177/scrnshot20130511144327.jpg As you can see, the frame around "Online" doesn't disappear. It's personal hangar. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Garratam
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 10:54:00 -
[690] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Reaper Chambers wrote:So, with the skill modifier reduction, those of us that have trained that up quite high will get those sp back... Right? They don't change the skill modifier, please don't spread lies.
Well actually they do, cf. : my post
With this, the training of the acquistion and the pinpointing skill to level 5 was in vain, as this is a nerf of 12.5% (at skill levels of 5). So 1.654 million SP are lost.
Ok we get a buff of 4.2 % on scan strength, but I could do without that if the deviation would stay the same. CCP could adjust the modifiers of the skills:
Astrometics: +4% scan strength, -6% deviation and -6% scan time Rangefinding: +5% scan strength Pinpointing: -6% deviation Acquisition: -6% scan time
This results in the following multiclipators (compared to the old values) with all skills at level 5. Scan strength: 1.2*1.25=1.5 (was 1.5) Deviation: 0.7*0.7=0.49 (was 0.5) Scan time: 0.7*0.7=0.49 (was 0.5)
Thereby, those who had trained all skills to 5 will still get the same bonuses after the changes. |
|
Space Wanderer
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:06:00 -
[691] - Quote
Dominatus01 wrote:I appreciate that changes might have been needed for the combat scanning side of things. I appreciate that devs didn't necessarily like the DSP charts with sig numbers that many of us used. This, however, was not the way to fix it. Not in any way, shape, or form. This new system is something that will turn many, many players OFF exploration in the long term, not encourage it. I implore you CCP to have a good rethink about introducing this new system. It is going to take out of the game one of the integral mini-professions that we have come to enjoy. I know certainly that this is going to reduce my playing time. The time I would have spent exploring as a change from normal activities, I will now simply spend offline, playing something else.
I tend to agree with what is written above. Also, I want to outline something else emerging from what this player wrote. I don't know how much time has been devoted to think these changes through, but what appears from my standpoint is that not much thought went into it. I remember the last scanning big shakeup (apochrypha); the new scanning system had been deployed on SISI for more than a month, we (the players) had a lot of time to test it extensively and give feedback (granted, some of the feedback was clueless but much of it wasn't).
I hope the devs realize that the feedback they are getting from this expansion doesn't resemble the apochrypha feedback in any way, shape or form. If they expected this expansion to be the next apochrypha I am pretty sure they are going to be sorely disappointed, and I feel for them in that respect (obviously I feel also for myself, since I will be subjected to those changes....).
On the other hand I realize that Odyssey is here to stay, and in all honesty it's not all bad, so I think that the best way to give feedback is to suggest:
Some suggestions to straighten things out
1) Put back the eigth probe. CHECK, at least this one is being taken care, for god's sake. I appreciate that.
2) DSP. I realize that CCP wants to streamline the types of probes, and I don't care whether the DSP function is done by the discovery scanner or by another kind of probe, but the best way to fix the issues reported by the pvp probers is to move every function done by the DSP into the discovery scanner, which could also embed the directional scanner. The issues reported by the pve explorers are already solved since the discovery scanner actually reports the signature size of each site.
3) On the other hand it seems a bit stupid to give ALL that intel to everybody without a single skill, so the amount of intel actually obtained by the discovery scanner (e.g. max range of scanning, signature sizes, type of sites or ships, etc...) should depend on the ship being used, whether the ship is cloaked, and the astrometrics skills. An uncloaked covop with full astrometric skills might as well be able to gather full intel to infinity range.
4) While a UI is good for new players, not giving the vet players even the OPTION to put all that data into a list is so careless that it hurts. Please allow all the data detected by the discovery scanner to be reported into a list and into the system map.
5) Take a good look at the balance of the new scanning modules. Particularly, the stats of the T2 version of the pinpointing module seem rather, shall we say, "excessive"?
6) Fix what I hope is a bug, i.e. when you probe with only three probes, only a single non-warpable spot appears. As any decent prober knows, by laws of geometry it should consist in two non-warpable spots. If it is a design choice, the only thing I can suggest is to change the design. There is a limit to how much you want to dumb down the system...
7) Insert customization options for everything: number of probes to launch, player defined formations, default formation, etc...
8) I realize you cannot do all the changes you might want to do after this thread'in the scant 3 weeks you have before odyssey launch. In this case if you want to damage control the negative impact that Odyssey will have on the explorer part of EVE, I suggest to plan in advance the changes to be done in the next patch iteration, and take some specific commitments with your playerbase about what you are going to add/remove.
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
313
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:17:00 -
[692] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Ok, keep the DSP then but make signature signal strength completely random. Why? Kind of defeats the purpose of having a DSP for most cases. You can easily use the DSP scanning method now with the onboard scanner so CCP haven't nerfed it at all, in fact they've made it available to everyone now. |
Dominatus01
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:17:00 -
[693] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:[quote=Dominatus01]
8) I realize you cannot do all the changes you might want to do after this thread'in the scant 3 weeks you have before odyssey launch.
and this once again goes to demonstrate the major gripe that most players have with online games. If you have a Test Server, and encourage us, the player base, to use it to test out new releases; then allow sufficient time to analyse, interpret, and action any feedback that you may get that you find useful. Otherwise, us testing new releases for you to assist seems kind of pointless. IMHO, a major release should be tested out on test servers for at least 8 weeks before launch, where possible. That at least gives a reasonable chance for devs to make any changes without them having to work 20/7 to try and do it (or simply ignore & give up) :) |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:23:00 -
[694] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:The issues reported by the pve explorers are already solved since the discovery scanner actually reports the signature size of each site.
And you think that is good? I am ambivalent about this. I am somewhat leaning to the thinking, that filtering by sig sizes was not intended by CCP, but that it is rather emergent gameplay. And lets face it kspace (especially highsec) is crowded with 'explorers' that just mindlessly trawl for their favourite site, i suspect mostly blindly using the dsp charts (and its not an issue of DSP, regardless of what ppl say). While emergent gameplay, it also 'dumbs down' exploring - and that i personally do not like.
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:27:00 -
[695] - Quote
Garratam wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Reaper Chambers wrote:So, with the skill modifier reduction, those of us that have trained that up quite high will get those sp back... Right? They don't change the skill modifier, please don't spread lies. Well actually they do, cf. : my post
They change skill effects. That has nothing to do with the modifier, which still is 3x for Astrometrics. Please don't spread lies.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Garratam
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:32:00 -
[696] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
They change skill effects. That has nothing to do with the modifier, which still is 3x for Astrometrics. Please don't spread lies.
My bad, then this was a misunderstanding. Nevertheless the effect changes lead to more or less lost SP. |
Celeste Aserad
Inner Visions Of Sound Mind
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:34:00 -
[697] - Quote
Could we get a hotkey assigned to "Scan"? As in, position probes -> Hit hotkey -> Scan system
Also, the new undocking mechanism is preventing me from aborting the undock. Proud member of [SOUND] Inner Visions [NSIDE] [SOUND] - A place for new players to begin their journey. We teach, We mine, We PvP, We explore, We build. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61177 |
iskflakes
438
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:54:00 -
[698] - Quote
Some feedback now I've played with things:
* The shift+alt combination is very annoying, I shouldn't have to hold two keys at once for any reason
* I am glad you are allowing us to launch any number of probes, this keeps our gameplay options open. This could be best implemented with a slider that defaults to 7, but can be moved.
* The greatly reduced complexity of the new system is not a good idea. It would be better to make exploration sites which are aimed a new players easier to scan down, rather than making the scanning of everything easier.
* The Deep space probe removal is bad. They are currently used for checking a whole system for PVE signatures, which the new scanner replaces, but they are also used for checking a whole system for ships and structures which the new system does NOT do.
By removing deep space probes you are making it nearly impossible for me to use my wormhole safely, because I'm not going to spin my camera around looking for a new wormhole that spawned amongst 20-30 LADAR sites, and I'm not able to use combat probes because they only have 64 AU range, which is much smaller than my wormhole's radius.
How do you plan to let me discover new wormholes or ships as and when they appear?
A feature request while you're working with this section of code:
* A hotkey to start a probe cycle - |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:55:00 -
[699] - Quote
Garratam wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
They change skill effects. That has nothing to do with the modifier, which still is 3x for Astrometrics. Please don't spread lies.
My bad, then this was a misunderstanding. Nevertheless the effect changes lead to more or less lost SP.
You don't lose any SP. Just as a Archon pilot who doesn't fly Amarr BS doesn't lose any SP with the changes to the Amarr Carrier skill. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Deornoth Drake
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 11:56:00 -
[700] - Quote
Could you please let the colors be adjustable!
There are different levels of colorblind people out there! Yes, I'm one of them.
E.g. the difference on the safety button between partial and full safety is barley visible, i.e. I may recognize a change in color when changing, but I'm not able to determine which kind of safety is currently on (at least for those two). |
|
Space Wanderer
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:08:00 -
[701] - Quote
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:Space Wanderer wrote:The issues reported by the pve explorers are already solved since the discovery scanner actually reports the signature size of each site. And you think that is good? I am ambivalent about this. I am somewhat leaning to the thinking, that filtering by sig sizes was not intended by CCP, but that it is rather emergent gameplay.
Agreed about the emergent gameplay, but I don't see that as a necessarily negative issue, especially considering that it actually requires a skill at level 5 and 220 CPU you wouldn't need if you weren't using it. Actually the only thing that I missed from the previous scan system was the multispectral probe, which the DSP somehow takes the place of, although not completely. Besides, before the DSPs could be used as a site selection mechanism, I just had my own formation (similar in principle to jack milton's, although very different in layout due ot the many changes that the scanning UI was subject across the years) which would mainly act in the same way.
Scanning every site, and then finding out you spent your time on things you are not interested in, sounds to me more a mindless grind (similar to the old scanning system) than an engaging scanning system. What I would REALLY like, is an easy selective mechanism to select your targets, but after that a much more complex and engaging scanning system to find those targets. In other words, the main issue I see with the current scanning is not the easyness with which you can choose your targets, but the easyness with which you can find them. I think that the preapoc scanning system had this part nailed down pretty well, it was easy to select your target, but it would take a long time to find it. The issue it had was that finding it was a mindless timesink, which the new system somehow solved by moving the grind into the first part.
Of course this vision of mine will never take place, I know... |
Jalequin
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:28:00 -
[702] - Quote
Unacceptable blindspots in the 'Spread' probe formation
My entire concern can be best summarized with this single image:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78696860/MiniSnaps/Static/EveOnlineSpreadProbeBLINDSPOTS.png The bottom half is where I properly fixed the formation. Having it further spread would once again create small blindspots on the upper/lower portions in between the probes towards the center probe.
There are blindspots in this formation. The pinpoint formation is fine, however if the spread formation isn't changed then I don't see it ever being used. Mass jumping effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0EVS3oOCRcw#t=46s |
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
1095
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:31:00 -
[703] - Quote
When I first read about saved formations I thought it was a great idea. Now that it seems to be only a pair of CCP-defined preloaded formations that will be avaiable I am not pleased. To me, also, the loss of the deep space probe is a pain. I love what that probe provides ... or shortly used to provide.
Sure there are whines and moans every which way whenever something changes, but my main grip eis that these changes seem to be removing player options ... especially the options for players to do stuff differently and off piste.
DSPs were a godsend when I lived in w-space ... especially being able to drop just one and keep a constant alert for any unexpected ships in system. Yes, I used them to do a stocktake on sites but that was way second-place to having a scout constantly watching for hostile ships and newly spawned wormholes (so often the source of hostile ships).
I have no problesm with the general efforts to dumb-down the scanning system ... it was demanding and it was fiddly ... but i do not like the rmeoval of so many powerful and useful alternatives in the process. Eve players put a lot of effort into maximising on the options available, and developing their own ways of doign things (just read all the different approaches people take to probe scanning). This element of the patch-plan seems to be wrapping a straight-jacket arond the scanning system ... making it easy to sit still, fat dumb and happy, but very difficult to get out and about and do something different.
Mixed feelings!
I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread |
Ralmar Kimnot
Okorer
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:40:00 -
[704] - Quote
Too many posts for me to check though so sorry if this has already been mentioned.
TLDR: Please remove the progress bar and warp to button and put back columns that can be sorted (using pastel colours).
The scanner list on the current live version is great as it is. I can't see anything with the new list that I would consider to be an improvement.
You have removed the ability to sort by column. This is very useful functionality when dealing with many signals and this has now gone.
You have replaced pastel colours that fit well with the rest of the eve interface with neon colours. Please can you reconsider your use of neon green, red, etc. It just doesnGÇÖt fit.
Please put back the % hit column. It's useful to see the exact signal strength after the first "whatGÇÖs out there scan". Especially when looking for a WH. They tend to have slightly higher hit %'s.
Remove the warp to button. It's a list not a menu. All other lists in eve have context sensitive menu's. This list should be no different.
The progress bar: Well I suppose it's the reason you have removed the columns and the sort option. Your progress bar doesnGÇÖt work very well across multiple sortable columns. In my view the progress bar isn't good enough that existing and very useful list based functionality should be ditched in favour of it. Just saying. |
Garratam
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:50:00 -
[705] - Quote
The new system scan after you have entered a new system is pretty neat (especially the shown signatures strengthes of 3, 5 and 10% which allow to filter out unwanted sizes, like when you're only scanning K162 WHs), although it is somewhat tedious to mouseover all the signatures to get the scan strengthes. It would be nice if the results visible in space would also appear in the scan window. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:50:00 -
[706] - Quote
Currently i scan this way : Drop 7 probes, move them into pinpoint formation. 32 au probes in pinpoint formation. Move center of probes to sigs i want to scan. Set all probes to 8 AU ,move probes closer together so that it looks like the pinpointformation. Move center of probes to sig(s) i want to scan. Set all probes to 2 or 1 au,move probes closer together so that it looks like the pinpointformation. And that until i found the sig.
Now with the new system it is easier to move the probes to the sig i want to scan. that is good. There is a button to switch from map/normal view on the scan screen, i like that one also. Though each time i resize i need to use alt-shift to move them back into position again. Also why are the probe formations set to 16 au for spread and 4 au for pinpoint formation? I would rather have just use alt to move probes closer together(less keys to press is very comfortable for users) and/or probe formations follow the current range of the probes when you click it(with the defaults the ones you have now). The ideal would be change all probe sizes, click formation button, probes form round center probe at that range in that formation. Not the same distances as the 16au/4au probes but to have the same kind of overlaps. Each time you scan you need to reselect all the probes to change the range, it used to be that they stayed selected. Edit: Correction, can't see if you have selected all the probes or not after you scan . It looks like all of them are deselected but they are not. If you right click it still shows 7 selected and you give command(change range) to all 7.
Probes don't have a timer anymore is this intentional or is it not showing?
Also don't stop people from launching probes if the have less in the launcher. In theory you only need 3 to 4 probes to scan stuff and if you need to leave(w-space) in a hurry probes tend to get left behind unintenionaly. If you have only 4 left you can't launch any in this build and thus you can get stuck. If people that now standard use 4 probes haven't read this before the patch they are already stuck in w-space. I would sudget that it standard launches 7 probes unless there are less in the probe launcher, then you launch what is in the launcher.
other UI issues : You can't sort the signature list anymore. If looking for a specific site i used to sort it to be able to find it faster.
You can't resize the columns anymore. Seeing a oresite i need to resize the scan-window to half the screen to be able to read the it was a small hederbergite, jasper and .......... kernite site. And the column wich had the type of site had ore site and a biiiiiiig white space untill the description.
Also warp to button(next to 100% scanned stuff) can be clicked when already there.
Why aren't cosmic anomalies in the d-scan list when entering a system(you need to do a d-scan first)? Sites that aren't on a usual galactic plane will not be easy to spot if this isn't in the release version. Also if the site is above or below you you won't notice it. Maybe if you put the sensor overlay on, it leaves little symbols on the edge of the screen like the planets do if you turned on the brackets?
Maybe increase the contrast between selected items none selected item it is hard to see sometimes now.
I also can't seem to analyse/hack the new stuff in singularity server, is this normal?(tryed in h-sec).
If this small issues are resolved(and the list already on the original post) i will be looking forward to Oddesy!!! |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
80
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 13:18:00 -
[707] - Quote
I'm still furious over most of those changes, but Kudos to CCP for giving us at least the 8th probe back. Thanks and mouth hugs for that.
Now, I unsderstood correctly that the initial derpscan of that system will be shown in a listversion?
like
UDR-300 5% 6-13.3AU IDE-200 5% 0.4-8.5AU ADE-322 10% 0.4-1.9AU ....
?
Pretty please with a bunch of yummy cherries! |
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 13:24:00 -
[708] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Penny Ibramovic wrote: please add an option to unlink all currently launched probes.
A toggle option would be good, to link and unlink probes, so that they all move together or can be moved/resized independently. The cluster looks to be a time-saver for working through a system's signatures (even if it may be simplifying the process a little too much), but there are occasions when probes need to be shifted around individually. It would be definitely be harmful to w-space life if this option were not available.
You can already do this. If you press shift it allows you to manipulate the precise position of the probes, and when you let go you can move all the probes as a group.
I have to constantly hold shift to move a single probe, and when I let go the probe box disappears. This is clearly not what I am asking for, which is to have similar functionality to what is in TQ at the moment.
Being able to move probes as individual units is very important for hunting ships successfully.
As I've already mentioned, in the quoted text above, the new interface helps with scanning systems, but it is clearly not designed for hunting. They are different tasks that require different methods. Linked probes are great for general scanning, unlinked probes are necessary for hunting.
And surely this request shouldn't be difficult to implement, by your own claim. Linked mode has shift being used as a modifier to move probes individually. Toggle a switch, and you get unlinked mode, where all probe boxes are visible and probes are moved individually by default and shift is used as a modifier to move them all together. All the toggle does is use a soft shift-key switch.
I have no doubt that his feature will be used if implemented. |
Astyages
Solaris Project Border World Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 14:32:00 -
[709] - Quote
If the discovery scanner is meant to work like a dsp, why oh why can't it show what it finds in the list view too?
In it's current format it seems to reduce you to ship spinning in order to see what sigs are present in a system, and if like me you have a number of windows open this makes it quite cumbersome.
Another oddity after scanning down a sig (why change moving probes in to alt-shift btw?) when I warped to it my ship appeared to warp in a completely different direction to the one indicated in the sensor overlay.
When I reached the signature it still shows it floating off in the distance. |
Balint Vazsonyi
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 14:33:00 -
[710] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back.
Thank you!!! I wasn't gonna rage quit or anything, but great to see the dialogue between the devs and the players in Eve, I think the level of back and forth is unique in the MMO world.
One possibility is to make the T2 launchers able to fit 8 probes, and T1 only 7. That way new players can still use 7 right away, and dedicated scanners can still train Astrometrics V in order to get 8 probes.
Then you'd have to decide if Sister's launchers also get 8. If not scanners would have to choose between 8 probes or the extra 5% bonus. If yes then it'd be a little easier to get 8 probes than now, but you'd still be motivated to get Astro V for the extra bonus.
|
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
120
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 14:57:00 -
[711] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Rammix wrote:DSP is now not needed for signature sorting. Now it can be useful only if you want to search for ships on deep safe spots far beyond the last planet's orbit. Maybe you are right, could not test it myself tho, because my mirror on Singularity is somehow old (like almost 4M SP less), do not have the scanning skills (and all-in-one ship) I posses on Tranquility now :(
I believe there was a mirrored copy of TQ made Friday and should be available next week. Sooo hopefully they got around to that |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 15:08:00 -
[712] - Quote
Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people... |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
80
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 15:46:00 -
[713] - Quote
Octoven wrote: it literally is infinite
Please do NOT combine literally and infinite. The stupidity of that combination makes my eyes hurt.
You may wish to look up both words. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
994
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 16:07:00 -
[714] - Quote
Unfortunately the skill changes are final :( We are getting the 8th probe back. The campaign for DSP to be brought back is still ongoing. It would be nice to be able to define probe groups that would move together, for example if you like to use two sets of 4 you should be able to set one set of 4 in group one and another set of probes into group 2. If you like to keep a DSP out and scan with 7 probes . Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 16:15:00 -
[715] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people...
Speak for yourself. Dragging the range bubble to autosnap both the location as well as the range is amazing. Increasing the base Sig strength so I can filter 90% of the sigs with a 4AU scan around a planet is amazing. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1027
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:42:00 -
[716] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people... Speak for yourself. Dragging the range bubble to autosnap both the location as well as the range is amazing. Increasing the base Sig strength so I can filter 90% of the sigs with a 4AU scan around a planet is amazing. following your logic, it would be even more amazing if you could scan the entire system with one button. if that's where the whole thing is going, let's at least be honest and not call it 'exploration' any more.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Balint Vazsonyi
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:44:00 -
[717] - Quote
Someone else asked, but I'd like to repeat the question as to whether it will still be possible to make a ship unscannable except with perfect skills and a virtue set?
This is a fun dynamic, I have several ship setups like this, and I'm also working on a scanner alt who can scan them down. It's fun to mess around in null/low and see a set of sisters combat probes trying to catch you and fail, but then seeing a cheetah with 8 probes (so obviously a dedicated scanner) and wondering if you should run and hide or risk finishing your current (profitable) exercise. It's even more fun (I've heard) to surprise someone who thought they were safe.
I'd be ok if the current signature radius/sensor strength ratio required (1.08) was lowered, making it more difficult, but there should still be the possibility of being "unscannable" without a virtue set. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:24:00 -
[718] - Quote
What's depressing to me is that I have developed skills over the last 4 years to become an excellent scanner. The way the system is currently allows for player skill to make a difference. Yeah it's a bit clunky at times, but that is part of the challenge. So when I see things removed from the game that allowed for a skilled scanner to out perform a new scanner I question those choices.
Perhaps the new system will offer more options for player skill to develop, but I find that hard to believe based on what was just been given to us. I just listened to Declarations of War podcast and it sounds like it was a high level pitch to get people scanning out PvE and improving opportunities for PvP. Sounds amazing to me too! That's not what I'm seeing, however.
There has been a fundamental misunderstanding how elite scanners probe. It does not involve dropping a DSP and looking at a website or using 7 probes.
Hopefully CCP will offer us something that requires even more player skill to master, but is more accessible.
I am hopeful, but with doubts. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:30:00 -
[719] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people...
Im sorry you dont like change, there are some things they can tweak to make it better but get used to it because they obviously have taken developer time to put these features in. So like it or not, most WILL be in TQ come June 4. Our job as players isnt to say, "hey we dont like any of it...redo it all." Our job is to test what already exist and determine the setting which which makes it viable. The new scanning system is here to stay so, start providing some feedback that will help instead of whining that you dont want change.
1. Scanning - It is waaayyyy to fast as it is right now. I kid you not I took a character with scanning skills at 5/3/2/3 and managed to use a carrier to scan down a wormhole in literally 20 seconds.
2. Scanning Window - There needs to be probe timers, the ability to C&P (Which CCP has already said they are working to restore), and overall just the ability to manipulate the data colums so that you can see group and scan id names.
3. Probes - DSPs? Yeah uh they will be gone for good, do not count on them ever coming back. As for the cores and combats, the 7 probe limit is annoying (CCP has already confirmed they are reverting this to 1-8 probe choices)
4. Jump Effects - There are some issues duing the actual session change while youre in the dark tunnel. At times, the effect is not rendered and you can see just a hole in space and the system white out to the next.
5. Completing Scanning - There really is no reason at all probes should ever appear back in your bay magically and instantly. It is better to instruct scanners to hit the recover all button. Sure, that comes with the risk of losing your probes, but EVE is all about risk/reward ratios.
These are some constructive feedback comments. I think it would be in everybody's best interest if you and others followed these guidelines. We are NOT getting the scanning system back as it is now, so no need to continue to beat the dead horse. Instead, lets try to give feedback and fix what we will get. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:32:00 -
[720] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:What's depressing to me is that I have developed skills over the last 4 years to become an excellent scanner. The way the system is currently allows for player skill to make a difference. Yeah it's a bit clunky at times, but that is part of the challenge. So when I see things removed from the game that allowed for a skilled scanner to out perform a new scanner I question those choices.
Perhaps the new system will offer more options for player skill to develop, but I find that hard to believe based on what was just been given to us. I just listened to Declarations of War podcast and it sounds like it was a high level pitch to get people scanning out PvE and improving opportunities for PvP. Sounds amazing to me too! That's not what I'm seeing, however.
There has been a fundamental misunderstanding how elite scanners probe. It does not involve dropping a DSP and looking at a website or using 7 probes.
Hopefully CCP will offer us something that requires even more player skill to master, but is more accessible.
I am hopeful, but with doubts.
The ONLY way I would support keeping DSPs is if the base signal for all sites were dynamic and not static as they are now. If CCP made those changes then yes, I would support keeping them in, but at the moment there are too many players using it as uber intel |
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:40:00 -
[721] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Octoven wrote: it literally is infinite
Please do NOT combine literally and infinite. The stupidity of that combination makes my eyes hurt. You may wish to look up both words.
The stupidity for one to say they are not infinite when CCP Fozzie clearly stated they were in a previous post hurts my eyes as well IF a game developer says that an object has an infinite point of view then it does, I chose to use the word literally (meaning exactly) to indicate to the player in question that when a dev says infinite it means boundless and is not being used as a metaphor; however, if you prefer this long winded explanation I would be happy to yield to such a process to ease the pain of your eyes.
Until then I stand by my original statement, "it literally (Exactly) is infinite." |
Ralmar Kimnot
Okorer
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:49:00 -
[722] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:We are NOT getting the scanning system back as it is now, so no need to continue to beat the dead horse. Instead, lets try to give feedback and fix what we will get.
I think it's better for those that have looked at the chnages on SiSi to flog the dead horse now than for thousands to rage post on threadnaughts after these changes have gone live. There have been some epic player backlashes in the past and for me, the changes to the scanner system go against what eve is about and they are also a departure from the current look and feel of the UI which works very well as it is.
I hope CCP seriously consider the forum responses to the scanner and star gate jump changes. A negative view of both of these changes when they are released could tarnish the whole expansion which would be a real shame as there is a lot of great stuff in it. |
Solu Terona
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:29:00 -
[723] - Quote
just checking, Hi sec prof sites are supposed to give you **** all right? havent found any low or null sites yet and if the highsec versions are the same everywhere loot drops need a really serious buff |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 20:04:00 -
[724] - Quote
Solu Terona wrote:just checking, Hi sec prof sites are supposed to give you **** all right? havent found any low or null sites yet and if the highsec versions are the same everywhere loot drops need a really serious buff
Highsec really needs a buff in reward? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Space Wanderer
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 20:11:00 -
[725] - Quote
Testing of the new modules: Feedback
Ok, since the new scanning modules have been seeded I tested them. For each of them I tested the T2 versions, since they are those that the experienced probers will be using anyway. Let's discuss them in sequence:
Pinpointing arrays II Just equip four of them and forget that deviation is in the game... Just now I scanned a signature with an 8AU range, found a red dot, centered the formation on that result, dropped the range of formation all the way to 0.25AU and got a 100% signal. Why even having deviation in the game, in the first place? Please rebalance.
Rangefinding arrays II First of all they are bugged (cfr. BR #157770). since they are much less effective than stated in their description. Still, by equipping two of them I reached a scan strength that would allow me to scan down a ship at the signature size cap without using virtue implants (although all the equip and skills were maxed out). And that cap has not been removed or changed, I tested that as well. Perhaps the ship cap might be lowered/removed? Otherwise some rebalance might be advisable
Acquisition arrays II The stacking penalty on those modules does not work (cfr. BR #157766). Testing them with this bug leas to some worrying results, such as 2.3 seconds to perform a single scan. Consider a probing ship using probes in combination with directional scan, and a target ship has only 2.3 seconds to see the probes in its own directional scanner... Please fix/rebalance
Additional comments: 1) They are all midslot modules. I foresee the cheetah and anathema to become obsolete very soon. 2) They are passive modules. I am not sure it is a good idea. If they were ACTIVE modules you would be forced to stay uncloaked to use them, thus adding an element of danger to those wishing to reap their rewards. 3) In essence dedicated probers will be forced to choose between no deviation, ability to scan down every ship without virtues, or having invisible probes (actually I think that the last two could also be combined). Poor probers... 4) Please rebalance. |
Shuin Pa
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 20:37:00 -
[726] - Quote
Thank you CCP for working to make us happy and for listening to our input.
Most of my input will be focused on combat probes. I am not an expert scanner by any means, but I have a specific purpose for combat probes on TQ. At first I was very dissappointed in the changes, but after a few hours of scanning myself down on Sisi, I began to warm up to it.
LIKES: 1) Centering probes is ALOT easier now. The screen is less cluttered and brackets are easier to see. Even just moving the map around is much easier now. Clean nice! 2) I like the patern concept, but it needs some work. 3) Launching 7 probes is appealing, but not all the time.
BUGS: 1) When changing the range on probes, the scanning window does not reflect the change until the scan is started. 2) Probes highlighted in the scanning window do not stay highlighted after scan. i.e. CRTL-A highlights all probes. Scan and now only 1 probe is highlighted. 3) Bug? When switching between probe formations the globes that show scan range get set to some default value. Please keep range set from previous formation. 4) Probe icon remains on the map screen after recalling probes and if a scan is done before bringing up the map there is no probe icon. 5) When using combat probes when 'Drones & Probes' are listed some show up as "Drones &" some show up as "Drone" even if they are the same trype of drones. The drones I saw were all HOBII 6) Ship Maintenence Array shows up as "Ship" in the scanning window. 7) The in space icon for the new space view scanning thingy does not update after a site has been found to 100%. Submitted bug report with screen shots. 8) Sometimes the Launcher mod in the HUD will stay on, cannot replicate 100%
ISSUES: 1) Must use 2 buttons ALT-SHIFT to adjust pattern size. These buttons are uncomfortable to push and use. ALT was much nicer. 2) Probe timer is missing. 3) Cannot copy sigs from scanning window. 4) Progress bar on scan strength is pretty but too fluffy. Our screens are loaded with information and realestate is important. I appreciate the effort to make this prettier, but sometimes a spreadsheet just needs to be a spreadsheet. The progress bars are also slow and waste resources. The bars are redundant, the % is listed on the left of the window. 5) Cannot sort sigs by type or strength. 6) Sometimes there is a strategic advantage to leaving probes in a system when one jumps out. 8-) Please remove the auto recall thingy. 7) Little off topic but the red bracket used for a ship in the scanning window is very difficult to see depending on room lighting. If that bracket were a brighter red or a different brighter color it would help alot! (or maybe bolded?) 8) When dropping probes, the default position is on the sun? Personally I prefer the default position to be where 'I' dropped them. 9) The check box for activating/deactivating a probe was easier than having to right click it to deativate. The ultimate impact of this is yet to be seen without the DSPs. 10) 7 probes is not enough? I see the base strength even on a ship with no probing mods is higher than on TQ. But that 8th probe fills the gap for a couple patterns used. Please give us back the 8th probe!
SUGGESTIONS: 1) Bring the ALT button back for resizing patterns. 2) Keep your patterns (although I don't fully understand the spread one /shrug) and launch 7 probes when those buttons are used. When the HUD Launcher button is used, just launch 1 probe. This way we can have our 4-5 probe patterns back by launching probes individually, and you can still use your patterns. (maybe ask the community to suggest patterns to use?)
COMPLAINTS: 1) DSP are a valuable tool for filtering ship size in a system. Personally I use them to find pods and dessies in systems where there maybe be 200+ ships in space. This is much more difficult and time consuming now. Or? was that the intent? 1a) I couldn't imagine living in a WH and having to filter through 30 sigs (EVERY DAY) to find the exit. 1b) The "Spread" pattern in no way even comes close to using a DSP because with rugular probes the signal is much stronger in the center than it is at the edges. Not to mention the gaps in the formation. 1c) We trained long and hard for the DSP and it was worth it. 2) I have to complain about the ALT+SHIFT button again. We are already used to the ALT button, pease keep it that way.
Thank you again for listening to your community!
Pa |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 21:07:00 -
[727] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people... Im sorry you dont like change, there are some things they can tweak to make it better but get used to it because they obviously have taken developer time to put these features in. So like it or not, most WILL be in TQ come June 4. .
BS. crap is crap. and that is what the overlay is. it has to go. and DSP has to stay. |
Solu Terona
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 21:29:00 -
[728] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Solu Terona wrote:just checking, Hi sec prof sites are supposed to give you **** all right? havent found any low or null sites yet and if the highsec versions are the same everywhere loot drops need a really serious buff Highsec really needs a buff in reward? no, its fine for highsec. but if its reprisenting what low and null gets prof sites are worthless |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 21:30:00 -
[729] - Quote
Jalequin wrote:Unacceptable blindspots in the 'Spread' probe formation My entire concern can be best summarized with this single image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78696860/MiniSnaps/Static/EveOnlineSpreadProbeBLINDSPOTS.pngThe bottom half is where I properly fixed the formation. Having it further spread would once again create small blindspots on the upper/lower portions in between the probes towards the center probe. There are blindspots in this formation. The pinpoint formation is fine, however if the spread formation isn't changed then I don't see it ever being used. The whole central probe is a blind spot. And that spread formation shouldn't be there, it greatly increase deviation. I don't see anyone using it, unless you want maximum coverage for minimum probes. But then it's not scanning. It's just watching. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Wadiest Yong
Tactical Munitions Sev3rance
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 21:31:00 -
[730] - Quote
Dear designers, having started my early EveO carreer as an explorer I can only look at Odyssey with enthusiasm. You are adding a lot of new and intricate life to the explorer gameplay. I understand you are hard at work making it more user friendly, allowing casual explorers to savour the sites, making probe positioning easier, even allowing the McDonald recipe to seep into the art of positioning probes, etc. However (here it comes), I have to voice a few concerns.
First and more in general, one of the unique points of Eve is that it offers ingame tools of great complexity, which can be used in many ways in a variety of contexts, sometimes to the astonishment of the developers (re the use of jet cans for mining as told by Hilmar during FanFest). Taking away tools leads to less creativity hence an impoverishment of the sandbox, especially when they are not replaced. Second, in the specific case of probes, you opt to eliminate DSPs. These probes are unique in function, and are used by people who turned probing into an art form. Not many people use them. The new visual system scanner that you claim makes the DSPs obsolete does not have the same functionality, as it does not show ships or drones. I even doubt, from my brief tests on Sisi, that it has the same range as DSPs. It feels more like it has the same range as the directional scanner. Third, admittedly the new scanner is a nice piece of eye candy drawing attention to exploring, but it is impractical, as anyone who wants to turn the ship's camera over 4-Ç steradians will know. Wanting to get rid of Eve Tax Returns - to quote CCP Soundwave - is good, but at least save the information from that scanner as a table, or add a specal tab to the overview, or save it in the already existing scan result window as a new tab please. As it is shown now on Sisi, it's really data lost. Four, you forgot to make the directional scanner automatic and give it a nice visual as well. We still have to spam the scan button. Sorry, couldn't resist the tongue in cheek comment . Five, why eliminate the use of survey probes on the usual launchers and force us to use specific launchers for surveying ? You are going the direction of having more variety in probe launchers than you have in probes. This looks gratuitous. Or will probing ships be allowed to fit more than one launcher now (as in an extra high slot, not one turret/missile slot less) ? Survey probes may look as they are PvE, but try surveying deep in enemy territory to collect strategic intel. You'll love to have other probes with you as well and will need them. Six, allowing 7 (or 8 now?) probes to be launched by anyone is fun for the casual explorer who can't invest the time to master positioning probes efficiently. Not allowing to launch and position individual probes (7 or 8) would be detrimental in PvP, in large systems, in systems with many gates, in wormholes. Not allowing to launch probes of different types would be a further downgrade for obvious reasons.
The disconnect here is that probes are treated in Odyssey as pure PvE tools, and the design of the expansion focuses only on that aspect. In every day use probes serve a highly necessary role in PvP, and not only the combat probes, and that aspect seems to be left out here. Probing is a very specialized profession, not even an official one, and quite different from exploring. Not many people spend a month to get to Astrometrics V, let alone the other skills associated with probing. So there aren't all that many voices to be heard. Except in this thread. Please reconsider the points listed above, with a focus on retaining the current high degree of flexibility.
I know many of us can be stern critics at times, especially when something new is in the works. Most of us probably agree that Odyssey looks to be an exciting new update. Gratz, and energy for the days ahead.
|
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Qual
Cornexant Research Sleeping Dragons
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 21:50:00 -
[731] - Quote
OK, played a bit around with this, and here are a few thoughts:
1) Automatic DSP like scanning is a bit of game changer in WH, as looking for new incoming WH sigs suddenly got a lot easier. 2) The system dont give you the site name in the scan result. Is this by design or an oversight? I cant really decide if its a good or a bad thing....
As a long time scanner I will say that there is a lot to like here, looking forward to playing with the next iteration. |
Blue Binary
Polychoron
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 22:00:00 -
[732] - Quote
Qual wrote:OK, played a bit around with this, and here are a few thoughts:
1) Automatic DSP like scanning is a bit of game changer in WH, as looking for new incoming WH sigs suddenly got a lot easier. 2) The system dont give you the site name in the scan result. Is this by design or an oversight? I cant really decide if its a good or a bad thing....
As a long time scanner I will say that there is a lot to like here, looking forward to playing with the next iteration. I think it's an oversight. The full site name still shows up if you mouseover on the result on the map. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 22:34:00 -
[733] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people... Im sorry you dont like change, there are some things they can tweak to make it better but get used to it because they obviously have taken developer time to put these features in. So like it or not, most WILL be in TQ come June 4. . BS. crap is crap. and that is what the overlay is. it has to go. and DSP has to stay.
Yeah...umm you get CCP right on that one...let me know how it works out for you. |
After Shok
Ruthenia Co
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 23:45:00 -
[734] - Quote
BUG - http://clip2net.com/s/538577 True Sansha's probes formation (8 probes): Spread formation - http://clip2net.com/s/538dXt Pinpoint formation - http://clip2net.com/s/538a7a and http://clip2net.com/s/538cF4 -ƒ-Ç-¦-¦-¦-+-¦ -+-¦-+-î-+-Å -+-ü-¦-+-Ç-¦-+-é-î, -â-¦-¦-¦-¦-¦-+-ï-¦ -¦-¦-¦-+-¦-¦-é! -¬ -ó-+-é -ü-¦-+-ï-¦ -£-Ä-+-à-¦-¦-â-+-¦-+ |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:07:00 -
[735] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back.
the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns.
focus people...
Reverting everything apart from user defined launch patterns is silly and a waste of time invested by CCP, some of what they want to introduce like the stolen idea from a python injection for the probe launch and layout system could have been worked into a revamped on-board scanner window or tab within it which could/should be renamed/relabelled to match. Additionally the multiple probe launch and various probe layout options could/should have been button activated options to allow ease of use by inexperience prober's while giving experienced unconventional high skilled prober's (elite certificate level people) access to already used mechanics, you don't change what works.
The show in space bracket options again could/should have been the addition of a simple button to turn on/off function in the scanner window and additionally it could have been added to the new radial menu idea as well. as i-¦m certain that some sheep brained developers/designers like it from other games they play and are so used to it they cannot think without it (again doing away with the eve lore, #if in doubt right click"). Additionally the displayed results should be listed in the scanner window in the overlay tab to stop EvE becoming station spinning in space, but the worst thing is listing all signatures, if you need a probe to find it then you should have to use a probe to know its there. Additionally DSP-¦s have functionality that the overlay does not give (Structures, Ships and Drones), this is literally killing the jet can, the unseen/unthoughtf of/unintended uses players who used them found,/discovered that quickly got utilised and greatly expanded game play. Hilmar himself opined in wonder at the inventiveness of players use of the basic tools delivered as an aspect that makes EvE great and gives it such a long life. the removal of these actually damages the game in many respects, or was Hilmar just spouting platitudes in the keynote.
I do wonder about listing/displaying brackets for what are now classed as grav sites, is it because they were under utilised by miners?, the reasoning behind the down grading is not clear. Clearer heads would have expanded the Ice Belt revamp, removed all asteroid belts and just converted them all into maximum regenerated 3 day duration grav sites to the overlay display (same #-ish per system, same layout for ease of implementation) and left the non sec status existing grav site asteroids requiring probes as they are a bonus in the system, not a natural event.
The current adjustable width and sortable results columns could have been left as is and a coloured progress bar as envisioned could have been overlaid in more subtle colours, the use-ability of what we have has been removed so just the new eye candy remains, it complicates as it makes clearer, heavy use will prove this point over time. The Warp to button is only useful for a rookie tutorial, the right click menus are universal in EvE, "if in doubt right click" is lore, options like warp to x distance are required, hitting zero unprepared in a hot site will cause newer players lots of tears over lost ships (and probably lots of GM time explaining that using the button is a risk).
I honestly do not know why they tried to re invent the wheel and made it oval, instead of looking at it and making basic design and material additions/changes thereby making it an expansion to the existing EvE client instead of another WiS type face palm where arrogance for the new and shiny overtakes common sense, lessons seem to have been forgotten. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
169
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:09:00 -
[736] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Reverting everything apart from user defined launch patterns is silly and a waste of time invested by CCP, That's the worst possible argument you can bring in debate. "But we spend so much time building this pile of ****! It can't be wrong!" The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:15:00 -
[737] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:Reverting everything apart from user defined launch patterns is silly and a waste of time invested by CCP, That's the worst possible argument you can bring in debate. "But we spend so much time building this pile of ****! It can't be wrong!"
read it all, they have some decent code lines that could be utilised in a far better way, you have to look at time investment and how to save something from the crapheap, after all its our money they are pissing/snorting away
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
385
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:19:00 -
[738] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:Rangefinding arrays II Still, by equipping two of them I reached a scan strength that would allow me to scan down a ship at the signature size cap without using virtue implants (although all the equip and skills were maxed out). And that cap has not been removed or changed, I tested that as well.
Cool ! Let's make sure to go into the wrong direction to fix sniping !
Please CCP, let us become unprobable A LOT MORE easily for sub-cap ships. G££ <= Me |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1832
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:30:00 -
[739] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back. the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns. focus people... Speak for yourself. Dragging the range bubble to autosnap both the location as well as the range is amazing. Increasing the base Sig strength so I can filter 90% of the sigs with a 4AU scan around a planet is amazing. for lazy scrubs like you, maybe. for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1029
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:37:00 -
[740] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Nitrah wrote:Kitanga wrote:Listen player-base, we need to focus here to get them to roll this exploration debacle back. the drumming message: revert everything; all we want are user defined launch patterns. focus people... Speak for yourself. Dragging the range bubble to autosnap both the location as well as the range is amazing. Increasing the base Sig strength so I can filter 90% of the sigs with a 4AU scan around a planet is amazing. for lazy scrubs like you, maybe. for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much. this very much.
edit: although i will have to clarify: i am very much in favor of having to fight against the proverbial cold harsh universe as well as other players. you should NOT have to fight against a tedious, badly designed UI (not that the new UI is much better than the old one).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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Rammix
FreeWorkers
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 01:27:00 -
[741] - Quote
Penny Ibramovic wrote: I have to constantly hold shift to move a single probe, and when I let go the probe box disappears. This is clearly not what I am asking for, which is to have similar functionality to what is in TQ at the moment.
Being able to move probes as individual units is very important for hunting ships successfully.
As I've already mentioned, in the quoted text above, the new interface helps with scanning systems, but it is clearly not designed for hunting. They are different tasks that require different methods. Linked probes are great for general scanning, unlinked probes are necessary for hunting.
And surely this request shouldn't be difficult to implement, by your own claim. Linked mode has shift being used as a modifier to move probes individually. Toggle a switch, and you get unlinked mode, where all probe boxes are visible and probes are moved individually by default and shift is used as a modifier to move them all together. All the toggle does is use a soft shift-key switch.
I have no doubt that his feature will be used if implemented.
I strongly approve and enforce this opinion. With one addition: soft shift-key for unlinked movement is not enough, because the probes will still draw to the center when you change their range this way. Old-fashioned unlinked movement (as an option) - when probes can be moved totally separately - would be better. (moar options!)
Shuin Pa wrote:DSP are a valuable tool for filtering ship size in a system. Personally I use them to find pods and dessies in systems where there maybe be 200+ ships in space. This is much more difficult and time consuming now. Or? was that the intent?
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Garratam wrote:The new system scan after you have entered a new system is pretty neat (especially the shown signatures strengthes of 3, 5 and 10% which allow to filter out unwanted sizes, like when you're only scanning K162 WHs), although it is somewhat tedious to mouseover all the signatures to get the scan strengthes. It would be nice if the results visible in space would also appear in the scan window. But please, only anomalies (100% scan strength), not signatures. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 01:34:00 -
[742] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much. "Effort" should not mean "busy work". Clicking and dragging probes around in a hard to use interface is busy work. "Effort" should mean"challenging".... Challenging is when there are obstacles, puzzle, and opponents to overcome in an experience that changes each time you do it... i.e. not Aprocrapha style probing, which is always the same boring thing. Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 02:31:00 -
[743] - Quote
Faulx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:for people who actually like exploration and want it to involve at least minimal effort, not so much. "Effort" should not mean "busy work". Clicking and dragging probes around in a hard to use interface is busy work. "Effort" should mean"challenging".... Challenging is when there are obstacles, puzzles, and opponents to overcome in an experience that changes each time you do it... i.e. not Aprocrapha style probing, which is always the same boring thing. *The most interesting thing about it was figuring it out... after your thousandth scan... it's a mind numbing tedium. By having the Preset formations, much of the whole "figuring out" process is gone... so you're just left with the tedium.
A lot of the challenge in Eve has involved figuring out horrid interfaces to get to what you wanted to do. I started exploration Pre-Apychropha because that type of game play appealed to me. It pulled me to low then null sec with my multispec, combs, sifts etc. Talk about tedium. (Similar to trying to reply via my phone right now)
CCPs task is to design an interface that is accessible yet offers many options to mess with in this toolbox. That is particularly not easy when you need to build off existing paradigms. It might be better to design a new system rather than add to the existing. Part of that process involves understanding how the system is currently being used. Trying to figure that out and design something less than a month from release seems a bit naive.
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 02:52:00 -
[744] - Quote
Rammix wrote:
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine. Yes, DSPs were useful in the sense that people could combine them with other probes to have a more advanced version of scanning, but to be honest...I really don't think that justifies keeping them in the game. True, you can use them in tandem with standard probes to lock faster, but it still is redundancy either way you look at it.
Olari Vanderfall wrote:A lot of the challenge in Eve has involved figuring out horrid interfaces to get to what you wanted to do. I started exploration Pre-Apychropha because that type of game play appealed to me. It pulled me to low then null sec with my multispec, combs, sifts etc. Talk about tedium. (Similar to trying to reply via my phone right now)
Yes, the complexity of EVE is a great thing, but TOO much complexity where it becomes a click fest is just equals unsubs. This is the reason command centers for PI were changed over to what they are now. They are more efficient and faster. Probing as it exit now is sort of slow which is nice I wont complain about that, but the click fest for probing is just evil. THAT I am glad to see go. I played EVE when Trinity was released and to be honest the starting aspect was so damn complicated I said **** it and left.
After a few months and hearing of a new expansion I figured...ok maybe they have made it more efficient and streamlined...so I tried it and got into exploration and after the first three days said nope Im gone. Eventually I didn't come back until Apocrypha and that was only because I heard of the new scanning system coming.
The point im trying to make here is that there is a balance needed for all aspects of EVE, make it too complex and intriguing and you make older vets cream their pants, but newer players just say, "**** it, why should I read an hour on some website to learn out to do a basic part of the game?" However, if you make it too simplified then vets are bored.
From my perspective, with the new scan mods and changes to skills, the actual scanning needs dialed down ALOT, you shouldn't be able to scan down a wh in 30 seconds with minimal skills.
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Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:04:00 -
[745] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Rammix wrote:
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine.
i have a legacy safe that is 134au from the nearest planet, and yes i just warped to it without a problem. stopped reading right there... |
Aimee Maken
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:14:00 -
[746] - Quote
The removal of DSP without some form of skill comp is just unfair.
Unless sites become significantly harder to nail down unless you have astro V (IE 25 % on your strength and what nots), it is not worth it to train V on astro, but rather something like IV on it and III - IV on the scanning specialization and then go about your merry way.
At least refund the entire old skill and let us decide to put how much into it again.
Honestly, I want to know why it is being removed, because the system scanner does not provide the needed functionality that DSP offered.
I hope its not conspiracy like reason, namely to increase the time needed to grind so players spends more time in eve or becomes frustrated and buys plex. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:01:00 -
[747] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Rammix wrote:
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine. i have a legacy safe that is 134au from the nearest planet, and yes i just warped to it without a problem. stopped reading right there...
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-not-so-great-after-all-deep-safe-nerf-of-2010/
Quote:A defect reared its ugly head right at the end of last year, detailing a way to "overshoot" a warp, thus allowing you to travel a fairly arbitrary distance in a given direction under certain circumstances. This was fixed by software and marked for deployment in Tyrannis.
Once the actual defect was fixed, we realized that it would also make sense to clear up all the extra bookmarks created as a result of this defect - and, by the by, all the other deep safe bookmarks created by various no-longer-functional legitimate and illegitimate mechanics over the years.
The blog continues by saying:
Quote:The neatest solution would be to move all affected objects in a given system closer to the sun. However, EVE Development's resident DB guys were booked pretty solid for Tyrannis production, so the quickest solution was to instead make a few code changes to render deep-safe locations effectively inaccessible.
THAT is a confirmation that NO deep space book marks made now or since the beginning of time will work. If you are still using your then A) CCP has overlooked it and it needs to be reported or B) you are lying, I suggest providing a screen shot Eitherway, that blog doesn't say safes made before the fix were still usable, it states very clearly that NO safes beyond 20 AU will function...PERIOD. Sorry lol but its right there in teh full glory of a dev blog.
I provided my proof that they are disabled...lets see yours |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:19:00 -
[748] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Rammix wrote:
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine. i have a legacy safe that is 134au from the nearest planet, and yes i just warped to it without a problem. stopped reading right there... http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-not-so-great-after-all-deep-safe-nerf-of-2010/
i hate to say it but you speak out of ignorance. have you ever made a deep safe when you were able to? i doubt it. if so have you ever made it in a very very large system like Oipo (for example)? if so you would have been happy to realize that your deep safe is still infact very very deep.
you will note that in these very large systems like Oipo the diameter of the solar system is massive. In the blog you reference you can see from the diagram were a safe is moved to the edge of the system radius. the system radius is defined by the farthest planet + 20au. this can be very very far, well past 10 or 20au you are referencing. for me one of mine remained at 134au distant.
you stand corrected. and all that you have posted is therefore in question so please stop posting in defense of this carebearing change to our probing system.
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:36:00 -
[749] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Rammix wrote:
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine. i have a legacy safe that is 134au from the nearest planet, and yes i just warped to it without a problem. stopped reading right there... http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-not-so-great-after-all-deep-safe-nerf-of-2010/ i hate to say it but you speak out of ignorance. have you ever made a deep safe when you were able to? i doubt it. if so have you ever made it in a very very large system like Oipo (for example)? if so you would have been happy to realize that your deep safe is still infact very very deep. you will note that in these very large systems like Oipo the diameter of the solar system is massive. In the blog you reference you can see from the diagram were a safe is moved to the edge of the system radius. the system radius is defined by the farthest planet + 20au. this can be very very far, well past 10 or 20au you are referencing. for me one of mine remained at 134au distant. you stand corrected. and all that you have posted is therefore in question so please stop posting in defense of this carebearing change to our probing system.
Perhaps you should clarify WHERE you are measuring the 134au from before posting that you can warp 134au in a deep safe. The reason I say so is that Oipo is indeed a large system so if your book mark is on the 20au boundary from the edge fo the last planetary orbit then that is NOT classified as a deep space safe even though the size of the system is large. If you are saying your bookmark is 134au from the point of the last planetary orbit outward from the system, then yes that would be impossible.
In other words, lack of clarity can often lead to misunderstanding. TO put it quite frank, I can sit on the last planet in oipo and still not be detected by combats centered on the star, doesnt mean I claim it as a deep safe spot either. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:44:00 -
[750] - Quote
Octoven wrote: Perhaps you should clarify WHERE you are measuring the 134au from before posting that you can warp 134au in a deep safe. The reason I say so is that Oipo is indeed a large system so if your book mark is on the 20au boundary from the edge fo the last planetary orbit then that is NOT classified as a deep space safe even though the size of the system is large. If you are saying your bookmark is 134au from the point of the last planetary orbit outward from the system, then yes that would be impossible.
In other words, lack of clarity can often lead to misunderstanding. TO put it quite frank, I can sit on the last planet in oipo and still not be detected by combats centered on the star, doesnt mean I claim it as a deep safe spot either.
you still misunderstand. You can have a valid deep safe on the very other side of the solar system from the planet that is farthest from the sun. so yes that most distant planet dictates the overall governing radius of the solar system but it does not mean your safe is on the same side of the solar system as that planet. got it? |
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:50:00 -
[751] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote: Perhaps you should clarify WHERE you are measuring the 134au from before posting that you can warp 134au in a deep safe. The reason I say so is that Oipo is indeed a large system so if your book mark is on the 20au boundary from the edge fo the last planetary orbit then that is NOT classified as a deep space safe even though the size of the system is large. If you are saying your bookmark is 134au from the point of the last planetary orbit outward from the system, then yes that would be impossible.
In other words, lack of clarity can often lead to misunderstanding. TO put it quite frank, I can sit on the last planet in oipo and still not be detected by combats centered on the star, doesnt mean I claim it as a deep safe spot either.
you still misunderstand. You can have a valid deep safe on the very other side of the solar system from the planet that is farthest from the sun. so yes that most distant planet dictates the overall governing radius of the solar system but it does not mean your safe is on the same side of the solar system as that planet. got it?
Yes I understood that, so what makes you think someone wont choose to place their probes in that area??
Oipo is what like 154 au diameter, assuming you scan from the center of the system using a wide scan; and also assuming you place your probes in a circular pattern around the system you can effectively cover the whole system in two scans. Once for the interior and once for the exterior. Personally, I scan right up to that 20 au boundary no matter what system im in, and I still dont use a DSP to do it. Yeah, it takes twice as long but doesnt mean its impossible to find you using standard combats. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:55:00 -
[752] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote: Perhaps you should clarify WHERE you are measuring the 134au from before posting that you can warp 134au in a deep safe. The reason I say so is that Oipo is indeed a large system so if your book mark is on the 20au boundary from the edge fo the last planetary orbit then that is NOT classified as a deep space safe even though the size of the system is large. If you are saying your bookmark is 134au from the point of the last planetary orbit outward from the system, then yes that would be impossible.
In other words, lack of clarity can often lead to misunderstanding. TO put it quite frank, I can sit on the last planet in oipo and still not be detected by combats centered on the star, doesnt mean I claim it as a deep safe spot either.
you still misunderstand. You can have a valid deep safe on the very other side of the solar system from the planet that is farthest from the sun. so yes that most distant planet dictates the overall governing radius of the solar system but it does not mean your safe is on the same side of the solar system as that planet. got it? Yes I understood that, so what makes you think someone wont choose to place their probes in that area?? Oipo is what like 154 au diameter, assuming you scan from the center of the system using a wide scan; and also assuming you place your probes in a circular pattern around the system you can effectively cover the whole system in two scans. Once for the interior and once for the exterior. Personally, I scan right up to that 20 au boundary no matter what system im in, and I still dont use a DSP to do it. Yeah, it takes twice as long but doesnt mean its impossible to find you using standard combats.
who said it was impossible? the issue is removal of DSP, for no apparent reason, because even you above admit that there is no 1 to 1 replacement for them.. you have to jack around with combats, up down all around. ridiculous. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:59:00 -
[753] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote: Perhaps you should clarify WHERE you are measuring the 134au from before posting that you can warp 134au in a deep safe. The reason I say so is that Oipo is indeed a large system so if your book mark is on the 20au boundary from the edge fo the last planetary orbit then that is NOT classified as a deep space safe even though the size of the system is large. If you are saying your bookmark is 134au from the point of the last planetary orbit outward from the system, then yes that would be impossible.
In other words, lack of clarity can often lead to misunderstanding. TO put it quite frank, I can sit on the last planet in oipo and still not be detected by combats centered on the star, doesnt mean I claim it as a deep safe spot either.
you still misunderstand. You can have a valid deep safe on the very other side of the solar system from the planet that is farthest from the sun. so yes that most distant planet dictates the overall governing radius of the solar system but it does not mean your safe is on the same side of the solar system as that planet. got it? Yes I understood that, so what makes you think someone wont choose to place their probes in that area?? Oipo is what like 154 au diameter, assuming you scan from the center of the system using a wide scan; and also assuming you place your probes in a circular pattern around the system you can effectively cover the whole system in two scans. Once for the interior and once for the exterior. Personally, I scan right up to that 20 au boundary no matter what system im in, and I still dont use a DSP to do it. Yeah, it takes twice as long but doesnt mean its impossible to find you using standard combats. who said it was impossible? the issue is removal of DSP, for no apparent reason, because even you above admit that there is no 1 to 1 replacement for them.. you have to jack around with combats, up down all around. ridiculous.
Well yes of course, and as I mentioned in a previous post Im not hating on the keep them in the game; however, if they were to stay I would only support that if CCP were to implement dynamic base signals for sites...ships meh you can leave like they are. Having that little swift guide to pop a probe out go...eh this is a 0.2 signal, dont want and move on....that is not exploration. That is just playing the lottery and getting to see the numbers before they are drawn. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:12:00 -
[754] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote: Perhaps you should clarify WHERE you are measuring the 134au from before posting that you can warp 134au in a deep safe. The reason I say so is that Oipo is indeed a large system so if your book mark is on the 20au boundary from the edge fo the last planetary orbit then that is NOT classified as a deep space safe even though the size of the system is large. If you are saying your bookmark is 134au from the point of the last planetary orbit outward from the system, then yes that would be impossible.
In other words, lack of clarity can often lead to misunderstanding. TO put it quite frank, I can sit on the last planet in oipo and still not be detected by combats centered on the star, doesnt mean I claim it as a deep safe spot either.
you still misunderstand. You can have a valid deep safe on the very other side of the solar system from the planet that is farthest from the sun. so yes that most distant planet dictates the overall governing radius of the solar system but it does not mean your safe is on the same side of the solar system as that planet. got it? Yes I understood that, so what makes you think someone wont choose to place their probes in that area?? Oipo is what like 154 au diameter, assuming you scan from the center of the system using a wide scan; and also assuming you place your probes in a circular pattern around the system you can effectively cover the whole system in two scans. Once for the interior and once for the exterior. Personally, I scan right up to that 20 au boundary no matter what system im in, and I still dont use a DSP to do it. Yeah, it takes twice as long but doesnt mean its impossible to find you using standard combats. who said it was impossible? the issue is removal of DSP, for no apparent reason, because even you above admit that there is no 1 to 1 replacement for them.. you have to jack around with combats, up down all around. ridiculous. Well yes of course, and as I mentioned in a previous post Im not hating on the keep them in the game; however, if they were to stay I would only support that if CCP were to implement dynamic base signals for sites...ships meh you can leave like they are. Having that little swift guide to pop a probe out go...eh this is a 0.2 signal, dont want and move on....that is not exploration. That is just playing the lottery and getting to see the numbers before they are drawn.
you should ask yourself why does that bother you that cosmic signature percentages can lead to a good guess as to what is at that sig? you can do the very same thing...
is it because you don't like to race to the final faction rat in highsec plex because Mr Tengu always shows up before you are done? so you want to stump the ability of the professional DSP using prober to find your plex?. but you forget that eve is supposed to be harsh and unforgiving. i personally love that race to that last rat. and if i lose so what.
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:28:00 -
[755] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:
you should ask yourself why does that bother you that cosmic signature percentages can lead to a good guess as to what is at that sig? you can do the very same thing...
is it because you don't like to race to the final faction rat in highsec plex because Mr Tengu always shows up before you are done? so you want to stump the ability of the professional DSP using prober to find your plex?. but you forget that eve is supposed to be harsh and unforgiving. i personally love that race to that last rat. and if i lose so what.
Actually no lol I dont really do 4/10s or 3/10s and the ones I do, usually I am the guy swooping in and stealing the loot haha. It bothers me that people can use these to quickly dismiss signatures without even needing to bother attempting to scan down to ID the grouping of the site. If they did that then, it starts to feel more like exploring. It's pointless really to pop out a probe and know whats in the system...what is there to explore? That takes all the unknown out of it. |
Wenthrial Solamar
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:33:00 -
[756] - Quote
After having a chance to work with this change on Sisi ....
1. DSP's ... They still Have value, and should be left in game. 1a. Single probe launch, has value should still be possible. ( I know CCP has already said they are addressing this )
2. One of the new scanning modules needs to be a High slot, or a Low slot... all three in Mid is counter to the stated goal of making exploration more accessible, as it strongly favors one racial line early on. I would actually like to see one High, one Low one Mid, allowing all the exploration ships to be able to fit both a Data and a Relic module, and still scan at full effect ( instead of just 3 of them that can now ) . Alternately, moving the Relic module to a High would accomplish the same goal.
3. Time to Hack... the Mini game is a good idea, but the implementation is not there yet. It takes too long to interact with, and is not sufficiently interesting to be worth the effort that goes in to it. 3a. Stacking of modules, the old interaction allowed many modules to try for access in parallel, effectively making the hack much faster. The New system is fully serial, and gains nothing from use of a second module, the effect is to extend the time to hack by 3-5 fold. This may be the intent ... but that is a big change.
4. Scanner overlay; very cool... but not so useful; the looking around in space is a wonderful bit of RP, but not really an effective interface for the job your trying to do with a (probes based) system scan. Praise where it is due, it works really well with the tracking camera and D-Scan, just not with Probes. 4a. If the Signatures show on the Overlay with out probes now... they should be in the progress bar list as well after I run a system scan.
5. Grav sites in the system scanner..... It adds little or nothing, and makes it necessary ( and boring ) to now actively guard mining fleets ( especially true in W-space ) . This is really a game play issue, I want more PvP, and this in theory should add more oppertunty for that interaction, but Space is big, and if I'm on "guard duty" I will have to literally sit and twiddle my thumbs waiting for some one to try and jump the mining fleet. But If I warp off and go run a combat site... my response time becomes too long to matter... so Miners go boom... and I don't get any Pew. Seems to fail it's goal on both counts.
6. Copy paste ... thank you for fixing this ( I hope to see it on Sisi soon )
Overall, Interface changes are good
|
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:38:00 -
[757] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:
you should ask yourself why does that bother you that cosmic signature percentages can lead to a good guess as to what is at that sig? you can do the very same thing...
is it because you don't like to race to the final faction rat in highsec plex because Mr Tengu always shows up before you are done? so you want to stump the ability of the professional DSP using prober to find your plex?. but you forget that eve is supposed to be harsh and unforgiving. i personally love that race to that last rat. and if i lose so what.
Actually no lol I dont really do 4/10s or 3/10s and the ones I do, usually I am the guy swooping in and stealing the loot haha. It bothers me that people can use these to quickly dismiss signatures without even needing to bother attempting to scan down to ID the grouping of the site. If they did that then, it starts to feel more like exploring. It's pointless really to pop out a probe and know whats in the system...what is there to explore? That takes all the unknown out of it.
but, from what you have written above, i see that you want to dictate how others play. you personally can explore every single signature down to 100% that you wish to. nothing is stopping you. is DSP stopping you? no. but you want to remove DSP to force others to play as you prefer to play? Eve is a complex game and people should be able to play it as they wish. removing DSP (or even removing readable percentages) is a dumbing down of the game, there is no question about it.
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 08:22:00 -
[758] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Eve is a complex game and people should be able to play it as they wish. removing DSP (or even removing readable percentages) is a dumbing down of the game, there is no question about it.
Making it more complicated to determine what a signature is not means dumbing down? Currently with 1 DSP I can: See every uncloaked ship in the system, every tower, every drone, every anom, every signature. By using the leet skill known as "reading" I can then ignore sigs I'm not interested in. That sounds like easy mode dumbed down to me.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
995
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 08:30:00 -
[759] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Kitanga wrote:Eve is a complex game and people should be able to play it as they wish. removing DSP (or even removing readable percentages) is a dumbing down of the game, there is no question about it.
Making it more complicated to determine what a signature is not means dumbing down? Currently with 1 DSP I can: See every uncloaked ship in the system, every tower, every drone, every anom, every signature. By using the leet skill known as "reading" I can then ignore sigs I'm not interested in. That sounds like easy mode dumbed down to me. So giving scanning a "local chat" of its own is not dumbing it down? Why should you get all the information for free as soon as you enter a system? DSPs are not easy mode, takes a siginificant time investment, special ships and equipment to use them. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Rockstara
Epidemic. Space Immigration
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 08:50:00 -
[760] - Quote
I would rather an improvement to the scanning system increase the amount of information available not decrease it.
Scanning is an extremely powerful feature in the eve universe, it is vital to the game. It has many, many users with a variety of interests. Explorers need to find the sites to run, wormholers need to find the holes, pvpers need to find things to warp to (and at the right range)
The current iteration of scanning is actually really close: Don't give me one click default probe formations. Give me the ability to save probe formations that are independent of size (I want the same overlap at 4 AU as 1 AU). Right now I've got to reform it every time.
Give me the ability to figure out what signature I want to scan fast, this is the majority of the reason I like the dsp.
Give me the ability to center a formation on a celestial for my pvp warp-ins |
|
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 12:40:00 -
[761] - Quote
Quick you tube video of an Eve Uni guy showing how to use the current scanning system now on SISI..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXKFqpEUHPQ
Great job CCP!. Like what i see so far |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 12:55:00 -
[762] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: So giving scanning a "local chat" of its own is not dumbing it down? Why should you get all the information for free as soon as you enter a system? DSPs are not easy mode, takes a siginificant time investment, special ships and equipment to use them.
You don't get "all the information" for free. You get a overview of anomalies and signatures, nothing about ships or structures. Time investment is a non-argument (waiting is not a skill) and I don't consider a Heron with a expanded probelauncher and a prototype cloak special ships and equipment. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1001
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 13:37:00 -
[763] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: So giving scanning a "local chat" of its own is not dumbing it down? Why should you get all the information for free as soon as you enter a system? DSPs are not easy mode, takes a siginificant time investment, special ships and equipment to use them.
You don't get "all the information" for free. You get a overview of anomalies and signatures, nothing about ships or structures. Time investment is a non-argument (waiting is not a skill) and I don't consider a Heron with a expanded probelauncher and a prototype cloak special ships and equipment. Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP. Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 14:05:00 -
[764] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP. Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.
Ok, understood. You want to keep the game dumbed down, not more complicated (by having to use combat probes). Glad to hear ;-) I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Fae Toledo
EVE University Ivy League
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:41:00 -
[765] - Quote
Aimee Maken wrote:The removal of DSP without some form of skill comp is just unfair.
At least refund the entire old skill and let us decide to put how much into it again.
Agree with Aimee Maken. We speaking about significant time investment become pointless.
|
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:13:00 -
[766] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Octoven wrote: it literally is infinite
Please do NOT combine literally and infinite. The stupidity of that combination makes my eyes hurt. You may wish to look up both words. The stupidity for one to say they are not infinite when CCP Fozzie clearly stated they were in a previous post hurts my eyes as well IF a game developer says that an object has an infinite point of view then it does, I chose to use the word literally (meaning exactly) to indicate to the player in question that when a dev says infinite it means boundless and is not being used as a metaphor; however, if you prefer this long winded explanation I would be happy to yield to such a process to ease the pain of your eyes. Until then I stand by my original statement, "it literally (Exactly) is infinite."
As you say yourself, infinite means boundless. Clearly the scanner is bounded by the solar system you are in. Hence not infinite. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:33:00 -
[767] - Quote
Fae Toledo wrote:Aimee Maken wrote:The removal of DSP without some form of skill comp is just unfair.
At least refund the entire old skill and let us decide to put how much into it again.
Agree with Aimee Maken. We speaking about significant time investment become pointless.
It is opening a can of worms: Give back Astrometrics skill points, then the Orca pilots complain (no more mining barge needed), then the carrier pilots (no more BS IV needed), then the Command ship pilots complain (No more Logi/HAC needed).... etc. I could understand a rebalance if Astro V wasn't needed at all, but it still is a prereq to jump portal generators and thus should not just be removed/reimbursed. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1002
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:59:00 -
[768] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP. Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.
Ok, understood. You want to keep the game dumbed down, not more complicated (by having to use combat probes). Glad to hear ;-) So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all? That is what the new system will bring. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
360
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:00:00 -
[769] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Kitanga wrote:Octoven wrote:Rammix wrote:
And don't forget that some people still have deep safe spots (i.e. in the outer space far beyond the last planet). Not as deep as they were in 'ancient' days, but far enough.
Right, legacy deep safes STILL exist; however, I dare you to try to warp to one. Warping to a bookmark more then 10 AU from the last planet in the system is disabled, thus you can use standard combats probes to hunt people just fine. i have a legacy safe that is 134au from the nearest planet, and yes i just warped to it without a problem. stopped reading right there... http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-not-so-great-after-all-deep-safe-nerf-of-2010/The blog continues by saying: Quote:The neatest solution would be to move all affected objects in a given system closer to the sun. However, EVE Development's resident DB guys were booked pretty solid for Tyrannis production, so the quickest solution was to instead make a few code changes to render deep-safe locations effectively inaccessible. THAT is a confirmation that NO deep space book marks made now or since the beginning of time will work. If you are still using your then A) CCP has overlooked it and it needs to be reported or B) you are lying, I suggest providing a screen shot Eitherway, that blog doesn't say safes made before the fix were still usable, it states very clearly that NO safes beyond 20 AU will function...PERIOD. Sorry lol but its right there in teh full glory of a dev blog. I provided my proof that they are disabled...lets see yours
Imagine a 60 AU system, now imagine all the planets are on one half of the system if there was a line going through the center. If you make a safe on the other half of the system with no celestials with bugs that still exists i.e. carriers with fighters. Then you can make yourself a safe where nobody thinks to look.
Many people do this in nullsec to rat, you just assign fighters from a cloaky carrier to a tengu. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:14:00 -
[770] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all? That is what the new system will bring.
Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1002
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:26:00 -
[771] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all? That is what the new system will bring. Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern. because pressing "spread formation" and scan is so hard. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:36:00 -
[772] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all? That is what the new system will bring. Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern. because pressing "spread formation" and scan is so hard.
You know that the Spread Formation pattern is bad and has gaps in it? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
ISquishWorms
201
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:44:00 -
[773] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:I HATE HATE HATE the fact that you launch all the probes when you want to launch just one to quickly check systems. It just doesn't make sense to me. (yes i know deep space probes have been removed.)
Is it going to be possible to change the amount of probes launched or can i set my own quick formations? I normally only use 4 combat probes as it is what I'm used to and it minimizes the effect probes have on dscan. Based on this I would also love to keep the ability to have at least 8 probes inside the launcher for the ability to launch multiple sets without having to spend so much time reloading.
I agree. Why are you assuming I want to launch 7 probes at 16AU. Flexibility is always key I find not trying to force people to do it a way that is perceived the norm. . |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1002
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:54:00 -
[774] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So a day old scanning alt in a t1 scanning ship being able to do close to what a DSP did is not dumbing the game down at all? That is what the new system will bring. Placing probes to cover a whole system is evidently more skill requiring than just launching 1 DSP and pressing "Scan". Just look what the game developers at CCP managed to produce with their spread pattern. because pressing "spread formation" and scan is so hard. You know that the Spread Formation pattern is bad and has gaps in it? You it takes 2 seconds to fill those gaps by holding alt + shift right? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:15:00 -
[775] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: You it takes 2 seconds to fill those gaps by holding alt + shift right?
Yes. So, which is faster and takes less skill? Launching 1 probe or launching 7/8 probes and adjusting them? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1003
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:35:00 -
[776] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: You it takes 2 seconds to fill those gaps by holding alt + shift right?
Yes. So, which is faster and takes less skill? Launching 1 probe or launching 7/8 probes and adjusting them? 7/8 and adjusting them takes rolling a new character and putting it in the right ship, a DSP take almost 2 weeks to train to use, so you do the math. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:38:00 -
[777] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: 7/8 and adjusting them takes rolling a new character and putting it in the right ship, a DSP take almost 2 weeks to train to use, so you do the math.
You... you are joking, right? You know that you can reload probes and don't need to biomass every time your probe launcher is empty? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
ISquishWorms
201
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:50:00 -
[778] - Quote
The more I see of this new scanning the less I like it. Seems to me like it has become a move something over a dot and click fest now even less variation and skill required than before. At least before there was the option and scope for trying out different formations and some had their own preferred formation which would need adjusting in accordance with probe resizing. Now it seems like a move over dot resize routine to the point that why even bother with formations at all as everyone will be doing exactly the same thing. There will be even less variation about how people choose to scan you could almost replace the probes now with a button that you click a different amount of times based on your skill points in exploration.
What I have seen so far has just made me want to ditch probing altogether. . |
Roel Yento
Black Rain Cartel
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:56:00 -
[779] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Astrometrics V is a time investment, the heron low and behold is a specialized ship for scanning, and the expanded probe launcher is specialized equipment required for the DSP. Not being able to see ships and structures is the reason why we want the DSP left in game. The discovery scanner is easy mode for cosmic signatures and anolamies, essencialy the "local chat" of scanning.
Ok, understood. You want to keep the game dumbed down, not more complicated (by having to use combat probes). Glad to hear ;-)
How about we make it even harder and only allow combats to read at 16au? Will take more skill to fully check a system and be even more complex? Where do you decide to draw the line on what is complex enough to be implemented? DSP's are easy mode for those that chose to invest into them. Why did you train astro to 5? For 8 combats? I did it for 8 probes and using dsp's but more so for dsp's. I am not saying scanning is impossible without them or i won't continue on without them but as has been stated before they have a function that is completely being removed. I could understand them being reworked to not let people cherry pick sites but regardless there is no reason to do that. Everyone can train astro to 5 to make scanning faster and easy. If you don't want to then you don't have too.
The only reason to actually remove dsp's is for pve reasons to make it a more level playing field for new accounts. They are pushing exploration and if new players get into exploration that means more people out roaming and having fun, thus more accounts. That is the reason why i am fine with their pve use being removed. Still no valid reason to remove their pvp use though, hence why they haven't responded to comments about the dsp's combat use.
At the least, i just want to hear why their pvp use is being removed. Whatever they say goes regardless but info is always nice to have. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1004
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:09:00 -
[780] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: 7/8 and adjusting them takes rolling a new character and putting it in the right ship, a DSP take almost 2 weeks to train to use, so you do the math.
You... you are joking, right? You know that you can reload probes and don't need to biomass every time your probe launcher is empty? Wow really I never new Lets see per odyssey time to make a scanning alt for WH is at the minimum 16 days, post odyssey time to make a WH scanning alt, at the maximum 4 days. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:22:00 -
[781] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Kitanga wrote:Eve is a complex game and people should be able to play it as they wish. removing DSP (or even removing readable percentages) is a dumbing down of the game, there is no question about it.
Making it more complicated to determine what a signature is not means dumbing down? Currently with 1 DSP I can: See every uncloaked ship in the system, every tower, every drone, every anom, every signature. By using the leet skill known as "reading" I can then ignore sigs I'm not interested in. That sounds like easy mode dumbed down to me. So giving scanning a "local chat" of its own is not dumbing it down? Why should you get all the information for free as soon as you enter a system? DSPs are not easy mode, takes a siginificant time investment, special ships and equipment to use them.
Actually you DONT get all the information for free entering a system. You get local chat that tells you how many players are in the system and you get the D-Scan2.0 which tells you how many sigs and anoms are in the system. It will not however tell you how many structures, what types, ships, and what types of ships are in the system. To do that you will still need to pop those probes out. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:24:00 -
[782] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:
Imagine a 60 AU system, now imagine all the planets are on one half of the system if there was a line going through the center. If you make a safe on the other half of the system with no celestials with bugs that still exists i.e. carriers with fighters. Then you can make yourself a safe where nobody thinks to look.
Many people do this in nullsec to rat, you just assign fighters from a cloaky carrier to a tengu.
Yes, thank you I do believe between the two of us arguing we have established those facts |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 20:30:00 -
[783] - Quote
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote:Octoven wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Octoven wrote: it literally is infinite
Please do NOT combine literally and infinite. The stupidity of that combination makes my eyes hurt. You may wish to look up both words. The stupidity for one to say they are not infinite when CCP Fozzie clearly stated they were in a previous post hurts my eyes as well IF a game developer says that an object has an infinite point of view then it does, I chose to use the word literally (meaning exactly) to indicate to the player in question that when a dev says infinite it means boundless and is not being used as a metaphor; however, if you prefer this long winded explanation I would be happy to yield to such a process to ease the pain of your eyes. Until then I stand by my original statement, "it literally (Exactly) is infinite." As you say yourself, infinite means boundless. Clearly the scanner is bounded by the solar system you are in. Hence not infinite.
No, when you are in a solar system there is no boundary on the edge of it. The longest recorded bookmark for deep safes was recorded at i think 5.9 billion AU which translates to 95,000 light years approx the diameter of the Milky Way >.> so yes the discovery scanner is indeed infinite and your argument is invalid. I can also say space is infinite as we know it. However, if I were to go from Sol to Rigel it doesnt mean that its bounded. Just as going from Jita to New Caldari is not bounded. Just because the solar systems are not loading on the backdrop for a particular system does NOT mean it is cut off from it and therefore bounded. Indeed it may not load anoms and sigs from other systems but the device itself will not have a distance limitation within the same solar system, and to be fair if one is using common sense then this is self evident. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:17:00 -
[784] - Quote
Roel Yento wrote:The only reason to actually remove dsp's is for pve reasons to make it a more level playing field for new accounts. They are pushing exploration and if new players get into exploration that means more people out roaming and having fun, thus more accounts. That is the reason why i am fine with their pve use being removed. Still no valid reason to remove their pvp use though, hence why they haven't responded to comments about the dsp's combat use.
Umm..... New accounts, more level playing field, come on get a grip, people play EvE because its EvE, its a sandbox, its hard to break into, that is one of its unique selling points (which CCP tends to forget in its quest for ISK) .
However if we follow that line of reasoning," the level playing field", ywe are left with a platform game like PacMan when all the shiny is stripped away, a sandbox needs graduation and what yCCP have become confused over is the learning curve, which at one time in the early days was a cliff, Trinity flattened it out and now rookies are literally hand held compared to the early days (and there are many 10 year old vets out there who will tell you this). An extension to this line of reasoning comes to the oblivious why not allow new accounts access to lvl 4 missions and L weapons and BS-¦s?. All this getting out roaming and having fun is also bollocks to the highest degree, noobs are mostly high sec dwellers, they live in set areas that are already overpopulated with explorers, not finding stuff on entering a system , then the same the next 10 will actually drive people away and make them think they were sold a bill of goods and nothing substantial, also known as smoke and mirrors.
No CCP did away with them because they did not think about all the unintended uses and what ones the did they thought combats would be good enough, for the PvP aspect, the overlay scanner placing great spamming hits splattered across the screen to them was so much eye candy they had to have it regardless of it breaking exploration in the truer sense, if it need a probe to find it, use a probe, but that is too much work for some. Yeah i agree DSP-¦s are useful, they do give more than the overlay in PvE due to a hard list of base strengths because CCP has hard coded sig base strengths and they cant figure out the 5 lines of code to make it dynamic with in a set range, thats why they are going and sod all of us who have elite navigation certificates who do see it as a profession with more merit than mission running lvl 4-¦s on pimped out "i win button boats" .
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 01:19:00 -
[785] - Quote
will you guys stop the bull over infinite, all Fozzie means that its everything within the hard set boundary of a system in which anything can spawn, he-¦s just too stupid to be clear about it. |
Soulpirate
Bedrock Industrial
274
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:49:00 -
[786] - Quote
T2 exploration mods need to have Astrometrics V as a requirement.
/drops the mic
|
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 03:06:00 -
[787] - Quote
Well I came to this thread prepared to be angry and found CCP are already addressing most issues already. I may even have to try the new scanning changes and provide constructive feedback As others have discussed the DSP removal could certainly be a massive pain in the backside for finding deep safes. There are plenty of wormhole corps with very deep safes in their home system that they use to set traps. There is one C6 corp we regularly came across who would sit their fleets at a deep around 50-60AU away from any orbital bodies. |
HTC NecoSino
TriFlexure Void-Legion
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 03:46:00 -
[788] - Quote
If CCP is insistent on dropping DSP, why not add 2 more steps to combat probes and let them scan out to 256au? Combined with being able to drop 1 probe = the same thing as a DSP. |
Galatea Galilei
Profoundly Inquisitive Exploration
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 03:56:00 -
[789] - Quote
Matuk Grymwal wrote:Well I came to this thread prepared to be angry and found CCP are already addressing most issues already. I may even have to try the new scanning changes and provide constructive feedback As others have discussed the DSP removal could certainly be a massive pain in the backside for finding deep safes. There are plenty of wormhole corps with very deep safes in their home system that they use to set traps. There is one C6 corp we regularly came across who would sit their fleets at a deep around 50-60AU away from any orbital bodies. Yes, this will make finding things like that more difficult. Thus, people will accuse CCP of "dumbing down" the game (because they removed this option). Of course, if they made it easier, CCP would be accused of "dumbing down" the game for that. I love the forums. Any change at all is "dumbing down", no matter the direction it moves the difficulty of things... xD The power of rationalization... the same conclusion can be argued no matter the facts, you just need to alter the argument a bit to fit.
|
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:00:00 -
[790] - Quote
How about disabling/outlawing the new overlay in empire and enable/allow it everywhere else? Maybe even create a new sov upgrade module disrupting the new overlay system. If people want easier exploration lets make em leave HS to gain access to tools that make exploration easier.
I prefer the scanning system on TQ to the one on SISI, but if I gotta live with the new one I might as well try to give some feedback rather than whine lol. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
|
Roel Yento
Black Rain Cartel
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:44:00 -
[791] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Roel Yento wrote:The only reason to actually remove dsp's is for pve reasons to make it a more level playing field for new accounts. They are pushing exploration and if new players get into exploration that means more people out roaming and having fun, thus more accounts. That is the reason why i am fine with their pve use being removed. Still no valid reason to remove their pvp use though, hence why they haven't responded to comments about the dsp's combat use. Umm..... New accounts, more level playing field, come on get a grip, people play EvE because its EvE, its a sandbox, its hard to break into, that is one of its unique selling points (which CCP tends to forget in its quest for ISK) . However if we follow that line of reasoning," the level playing field", ywe are left with a platform game like PacMan when all the shiny is stripped away, a sandbox needs graduation and what yCCP have become confused over is the learning curve, which at one time in the early days was a cliff, Trinity flattened it out and now rookies are literally hand held compared to the early days (and there are many 10 year old vets out there who will tell you this). An extension to this line of reasoning comes to the oblivious why not allow new accoexunts access to lvl 4 missions and L weapons and BS-¦s?. All this getting out roaming and having fun is also bollocks to the highest degree, noobs are mostly high sec dwellers, they live in set areas that are already overpopulated with explorers, not finding stuff on entering a system , then the same the next 10 will actually drive people away and make them think they were sold a bill of goods and nothing substantial, also known as smoke and mirrors. No CCP did away with them because they did not think about all the unintended uses and what ones the did they thought combats would be good enough, for the PvP aspect, the overlay scanner placing great spamming hits splattered across the screen to them was so much eye candy they had to have it regardless of it breaking exploration in the truer sense, if it need a probe to find it, use a probe, but that is too much work for some. Yeah i agree DSP-¦s are useful, they do give more than the overlay in PvE due to a hard list of base strengths because CCP has hard coded sig base strengths and they cant figure out the 5 lines of code to make it dynamic with in a set range, thats why they are going and sod all of us who have elite navigation certificates who do see it as a profession with more merit than mission running lvl 4-¦s on pimped out "i win button boats" .
Not sure if i communicated my point correctly but i did not mean for it to sound like i think the playing field should be leveled out. I was only saying that i could understand doing that for a business plan to help newer players feel equal to older players. Personally i think it cheapens things for older players that had to do the long train times. Besides, who complains about deep space probes? For the most part people that don't want to wait for the train time. It is unfortunate if they are being removed due to a coding issue and nothing is being done to fix them. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:59:00 -
[792] - Quote
Then again...who complained about loan or personal contracts, yet they were still taken out. I doubt anything anyone says here will keep it from happening.
I should also note that players complained about the removal of the jukebox due to a coding issue but CCP has already stated flat out, the jukebox isn't coming back again. |
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 07:19:00 -
[793] - Quote
Hello.
CCP, you do know there is player-made table of relevance between base site's signal strength and the type of this site?
Will this 'cheat' be shuffled somehow? As it stands, you may in one glance detect what signatures you're willing to probe down (with use of external resourse). It's somehow... immersion breaking.
Slightly more randomness in probing please? Let it be so 10/10 may be more or less difficult, so table will contain overlapping ranges instead of exact number. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 07:54:00 -
[794] - Quote
Paul Clancy wrote:Hello.
CCP, you do know there is player-made table of relevance between base site's signal strength and the type of this site?
Will this 'cheat' be shuffled somehow? As it stands, you may in one glance detect what signatures you're willing to probe down (with use of external resourse). It's somehow... immersion breaking.
Slightly more randomness in probing please? Let it be so 10/10 may be more or less difficult, so table will contain overlapping ranges instead of exact number.
If you are speaking of http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html, you CAN still use core probes to use that site; however, they arent as effective as DSPs haha |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1006
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 08:09:00 -
[795] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Paul Clancy wrote:Hello.
CCP, you do know there is player-made table of relevance between base site's signal strength and the type of this site?
Will this 'cheat' be shuffled somehow? As it stands, you may in one glance detect what signatures you're willing to probe down (with use of external resourse). It's somehow... immersion breaking.
Slightly more randomness in probing please? Let it be so 10/10 may be more or less difficult, so table will contain overlapping ranges instead of exact number. If you are speaking of http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html, you CAN still use core probes to use that site; however, they arent as effective as DSPs haha The discovery scanner will do that much faster than a DSP, so that web site it just becoming more effective. The DSP have more Israel's that that web site, it is a pitty you can't see that. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Hathrul
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
239
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 08:50:00 -
[796] - Quote
hi
can all the bonusses on the new scan mods be cut in half please? 40% deviation? 20% scan strenght? thats insane. i can nearly double my scan strenght with 4 midslots
edit: ps, spread formation is useless. |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 09:04:00 -
[797] - Quote
So, the removal of deadspace probes means bumping up the regular combat probes' max range to 256AU? Deepspace probes are damn useful to cover an oversized solar system, and also do some scanning on someone out of his dscan range, just to keep track of his movement in the system.
when see on sisi when i get a chance.
|
Zeradn
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 09:28:00 -
[798] - Quote
From a PvE point of view, DSPs are obsolete as the mouse over on the new Scanner Overlay brackets shows exactly which group the signature belongs to by directly giving the signature base strength. As pointed above, the swiftandbitter.com site just became useful for even a novice explorer. But, for a WH prober, DSPs were invaluable and they just got screwed. Now they will have to make do with the 60au combat probes which cannot efficiently replace DSPs.
If this is implemented, those guys will have to find new means to find reliable results. Even with 7 probes, we can't efficiently and completely cover even 100au radius. Considering the number of systems with radii bigger than that, PvP probing, and mainly WH probing just got more difficult. It could be argued that those things just got more challenging and even experienced players just have to rethink strategies, thus making things more 'interesting'. This change is more in the favour or the 'prey' than the 'hunter' in normal space and vice-versa in WH space. |
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 09:46:00 -
[799] - Quote
Okay I've test the changes and as promised here is productive feedback:
- Setting up custom probe formations is PAINFUL and makes my heart burn with the rage of a thousand dying suns.
- You can no longer sort probes by probe range. I use this to find all probes of a certain range so I can adjust their range as one block.
- When I click and drag on bubbles in space to adjust the range of the probes, you can't tell what range you're dragging to anymore.
- When you drop probes the probe formation always defaults to the centre of the system. I'd much prefer it to default the centre to where your ship is in space as it does now. This is a convenience thing, it makes it easier to ensure you don't accidentally drop combat probes in D-scan range of a target you are trying to find.
With the new pre-canned formations when you launch probes it will now default your probes into the last precanned formation you used. For those of us (i.e. every scanner who has half a clue in wormhole space) who setup custom formations, it is now extremely painful to drag probes from these precanned formations into our desired setup.
The spread formation puts the probes really far apart and all in a circle. So getting them back into precise geometries is really hard.
The pinpoint formation is slightly easier, but is a 3D formation when a lot of pilots use a 2D formation, and it's still fairly annoying compared to having the probes all on top of each other.
Some suggestions to fix the formation issue:
- When launching probes ALWAYS default them to being right on top of each other. This is the current behaviour and makes it easiest for those of us who setup custom formations.
- And/or ("and" preferred), add a custom formation button. When you click on this button make it remember the formation you set it to and restore it when you click on it.
For the love of god at least default the probes to being on top of each other as they do now. If you want one of the new formations it is super easy to click on the button to set one of the new formations, so it is no loss of convenience for people who want to use the new precanned formations. Customisable formations would be awesome, but at least don't break the scanning system for those of us who have their own preferred formations. |
TZeer
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 10:35:00 -
[800] - Quote
Still no word about the actual scanning time with combat probes??
C'mon CCP, seriously?
You are about to release a completely redesigned line of battleships, and you haven't fixed the main reason for one of the races bonuses being of no use.
Wake up! |
|
Rammix
FreeWorkers
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 10:55:00 -
[801] - Quote
Octoven wrote:It bothers me that people can use these to quickly dismiss signatures without even needing to bother attempting to scan down to ID the grouping of the site. If they did that then, it starts to feel more like exploring. It's pointless really to pop out a probe and know whats in the system...what is there to explore? That takes all the unknown out of it. Lol?? The new system not only allows such tricks but makes them even much easier. Maybe I'll reveal a secret to you: all sig strengths on the scanning overlay are stable and refer to anomalies the DSPs did. E.g. in terms of WH a sig with 10% strength is a K162 or something like that, 3% means radar sites etc, and so on. Nothing changed in this. Now you can just look at the sky and say "Oh, seems we have a new signature, looks like an incoming WH connection, let's scan it".
Brainless Bimbo wrote:CCP has hard coded sig base strengths and they cant figure out the 5 lines of code to make it dynamic with in a set range, thats why they are going and sod all of us who have elite navigation certificates who do see it as a profession with more merit than mission running lvl 4-¦s on pimped out "i win button boats" .
Making sig strengths dynamic would be stupid. Because every - at least relatively stable - thing has some constant carachteristics. Objects in space IRL have a complex signature made by their temperature, radiation etc, which helps to identify them. So it's just right and realistic that cosmic signatures in a game about spaceships also have stable identifiable signatures. When you scan a sig to 100% it's nothing else than identification of its type -- the same type can be identified without scanning to 100%, just with more deviation, that's all. It's just realistic. And when your DSP helps you to identify a signature because DSP's scanning radius is so big it makes all deviations meaningless - it's also realistic. IRL we also don't need super strong tools to identify (NOT locate - it's different) frickingly distant objects by their signatures. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 11:06:00 -
[802] - Quote
TZeer wrote:
Still no word about the actual scanning time with combat probes??
C'mon CCP, seriously?
You are about to release a completely redesigned line of battleships, and you haven't fixed the main reason for one of the races bonuses being of no use.
Wake up!
I am completely confused about this statement, are you talking about the new line of battleships or the scanning system?? |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 11:13:00 -
[803] - Quote
As a person who does exploration a little more I felt like I should offer my 2p
1) Running the system scanner ONCE is fine. More than once is a nice graphic but after a while becomes very annoying, especially since it doesn't seem to actually DO anything (sites may come and go but its hard to see / notice them)
2) If the system scanner IS running can we PLEASE have a constant D-Scan. It doesn't make any sence that my ships sensors are looking for sites on the edge of space and yet if I want to see if someone is creeping up behind me I have to manually click a button every 10 seconds or so.
3) Re-sizing and altering a single probe didn't show the others being changed, but then did - I think this is on the list to be fixed.
4) Hacking - I assume that this is mostly unfinished as it seemed broken in more than a few ways:
- I had the option to both open (with the mini game) and (open container) which bypassed the mini game and I got the loot?
- Even when I failed I got the message about loot being dropped?
- The cans themselves rejected the use of data analyser module as it wasn't needed - yet the little 'splash' screen as I warped to the site did say I needed one?
To be honest I'm not a big fan of the mini game - so far I haven't managed to understand HOW it works - but even if I did it seems to act more as a distraction than adding anything to the game. I can see more people getting ganked as they were busy looking at the mini game to think of checking Dscan.
For me the tension is the waiting around for the modules to finish - keeping an eye out and checking for theats while my modules are working adds to the tension and excitement. If I now have to jump through all these annoying mini game 'hoops' 5 or 10 times in a site then its going to make the mini game VERY annoying to deal with.
Can't we have an option where the mini game is potentially a quicker way of hacking the node, but using a module has a minimum time so that someone who is good at the minigame can hack them quickly while someone who doesn't will have to wait for their modules to finish.
5) Exploration Missions
I would imagine that its a little too late to add any new features before the expansion, but why aren't there exploration missions?
Wouldn't it make sense to go to an agent who says "We need you to find and hack an angel installation and recover something".
Same would apply with 'relic sites' where the agent could say "We've heard rumours of a relic in the system 'xyz' and we need you to recover 'something important'"
If you want carebears to come to lowsec they need consistancy - some of the problem with exploration is that its 'feast and famine' and can be very inconsistant. If you take a mission they will tell you the system and the signature name so you can scan just the ONE. Obviously the site spawns when you enter the system and once it has its available to all to see (much like a regular combat mission)
Even with reduced rewards I think exploration missions can act as both an extended tutorial for new pilots and a nice PvE content addition where lower level agents can offer 'high sec only' sites and the higher level agents can offer low sec, null sec and far off systems. |
Space Wanderer
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 11:39:00 -
[804] - Quote
Now, this is odd. I submitted three bug reports related to scanning. For each one of them I got as a response "we were not aware of the problem. a new defect has been created". Somehow I would have expected that, with the amount of people that (judging from the amount of feedback in this thread) are clearly testing the system extensively, at least some of those bugs had already been found. Apparently not...
For devs who are interested in those bug reports you can find the references in these posts:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3010359#post3010359
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3012193#post3012193
The fact that those posts contain also my feedback related to the stuff tested to find the bugs is purely incidental. |
|
CCP Paradox
845
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 11:41:00 -
[805] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:Now, this is odd. I submitted three bug reports related to scanning. For each one of them I got as a response "we were not aware of the problem. a new defect has been created". Somehow I would have expected that, with the amount of people that (judging from the amount of feedback in this thread) are clearly testing the system extensively, at least some of them had already been found. Apparently not... For devs who are interested in those bug reports you can find the references in these posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3010359#post3010359https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3012193#post3012193The fact that those posts contain also my feedback related to the stuff tested to find the bugs is purely incidental.
We are aware of the problem, the system isn't telling you that I was attaching these to existing reports :) There are quite a few submitting reports (hopefully they are getting emailed that I'm actioning their reports )
Also, your reports were nicely written. Thanks! It makes a nice change CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 11:47:00 -
[806] - Quote
I've been doing some further musing over my testing, specifically over the simultaneous launch of all probes. While it's super convenient, it really sucks for WH space. The time taken for a cloaky ship to drop a set of probes is one of the few chances you get to actually engage them. I've had many a kill where I've been able to tackle a ship dropping probes. With the current mechanism this completely disappears and it becomes virtually impossible to catch cloakers in WH space.
Catching cloakies is already challenging, but extremely rewarding when you pull it off. It would be an enormous shame to completely remove this game play element from WH space. |
Space Wanderer
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:01:00 -
[807] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:We are aware of the problem, the system isn't telling you that I was attaching these to existing reports :) There are quite a few submitting reports (hopefully they are getting emailed that I'm actioning their reports )
I have been mislaid by the fact that my only BR that wasn't about scanning (T2 production) was attached to a defect with a "we are already aware of the problem" statement. Anyway, glad to know that there are others testing the system.
CCP Paradox wrote:Also, your reports were nicely written. Thanks! It makes a nice change
YW. I know how much painful is to hunt bugs without sufficient details. |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:13:00 -
[808] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:If the system scanner IS running can we PLEASE have a constant D-Scan. It doesn't make any sence that my ships sensors are looking for sites on the edge of space and yet if I want to see if someone is creeping up behind me I have to manually click a button every 10 seconds or so. [sarcasm] Maybe they should also warn you that someone in a pvp-fitted ship is coming towards you, when he is 3 jumps away? Or maybe you want to know when someone activates narrowed directional scan on you? No? [/sarcasm]
2devs: When an update is coming? Would be good to see some progress on SiSi. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Qual
Cornexant Research Sleeping Dragons
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:13:00 -
[809] - Quote
And while you are at it. Is it possible to change the GUI to actually keep non 100% scan results? I have never quite understood why those where not kept in the overview.
I know they might be off, and yes, if I do a new scan and get the same sig as a result on the next scan it should only keep the newest result. (Yes I know that many times you would then get a point downgraded to a circle or sphere when scanning down two close sites, but I can live with that, just keep my results, ok?)
Thank you. |
|
CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
338
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:18:00 -
[810] - Quote
Hey guys, thanks for all the great feedback.
WeGÇÖre writing a dev blog that talks a bit more in depth about many of the changes, but in the meantime I wanted to quickly address a few things:
Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything). This and the heavy overlap with the Sensor Overlay system made us decide to remove them. There are other ways to find/track ships in systems; apart from the D-Scan, there are also the combat probes, which really are there to do what the DSP just did better. I should mention that weGÇÖre adjusting the sweep formation to not have any gaps.
Regarding removing options GÇô there has been some criticism that weGÇÖre removing some edge-case functionality in how some players probe scan. Basically what weGÇÖre doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if theyGÇÖre used to scanning differently. WeGÇÖve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But weGÇÖre not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version GÇô basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.
Regarding new names for sites, decryptors, modules GÇô The main reason for us to change the names of the sites is that the terms (radar, gravimetric, etc.) are already being used elsewhere in the game, and having the same terms over two quite different systems is really confusing. So weGÇÖre not changing them because we didnGÇÖt like them, but because theyGÇÖre already in use. As for other name changes, we decided to go for names that offer a bit better clarity to their functionality GÇô we always try to keep things thematic and cool, but it canGÇÖt be too much at the expense of playability. In these cases we felt it was better to tone down a bit on the thematic names.
Keep the good comments coming, the dev blog should be out late this week or early next week.
|
|
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1010
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:36:00 -
[811] - Quote
Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1362
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 12:37:00 -
[812] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the great feedback.
WeGÇÖre writing a dev blog that talks a bit more in depth about many of the changes, but in the meantime I wanted to quickly address a few things:
Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything). This and the heavy overlap with the Sensor Overlay system made us decide to remove them. There are other ways to find/track ships in systems; apart from the D-Scan, there are also the combat probes, which really are there to do what the DSP just did better. I should mention that weGÇÖre adjusting the sweep formation to not have any gaps.
Regarding removing options GÇô there has been some criticism that weGÇÖre removing some edge-case functionality in how some players probe scan. Basically what weGÇÖre doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if theyGÇÖre used to scanning differently. WeGÇÖve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But weGÇÖre not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version GÇô basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.
Regarding new names for sites, decryptors, modules GÇô The main reason for us to change the names of the sites is that the terms (radar, gravimetric, etc.) are already being used elsewhere in the game, and having the same terms over two quite different systems is really confusing. So weGÇÖre not changing them because we didnGÇÖt like them, but because theyGÇÖre already in use. As for other name changes, we decided to go for names that offer a bit better clarity to their functionality GÇô we always try to keep things thematic and cool, but it canGÇÖt be too much at the expense of playability. In these cases we felt it was better to tone down a bit on the thematic names.
Keep the good comments coming, the dev blog should be out late this week or early next week.
While I understand your reasonings for the DSP removal (I'll adapt) I have to say in its current state the Sensor Overlay system is largely useless eye candy. While it might be ok for a typical High or low sec system, which on average may have a handful of signatures, for 0.0 and Wormholes it can be utterly stupid. Having to spin in space and mouse over icons when you have >50 sigs (not uncommon for a WH system) is just insanely useless.
I can understand your hesitance to have some sort of table output for the system overlay (would give use DSP functionality without launching a probe) but are there plans to at least link the systems somewhat. In my opinion the two systems should at least have the capabilities to:
1. If I scan with probes, and ignore certain signatures, they should be ignored on the overlay as well. 2. The scan strength should update on the overlay, ie when I get a 100% lock on a signature it should go green on the overlay as well.
Can you address if this kind of functionality is at least in the works? |
Egg McMuff
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:01:00 -
[813] - Quote
Great Work CCP welldone I like the changes so far!!! |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
338
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:05:00 -
[814] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I can understand your hesitance to have some sort of table output for the system overlay (would give use DSP functionality without launching a probe) but are there plans to at least link the systems somewhat. In my opinion the two systems should at least have the capabilities to:
1. If I scan with probes, and ignore certain signatures, they should be ignored on the overlay as well. 2. The scan strength should update on the overlay, ie when I get a 100% lock on a signature it should go green on the overlay as well.
Can you address if this kind of functionality is at least in the works?
I would absolutely want to see this happen. We want to tie these two systems work together as much as possible and will strife to do so in the long run. The issue is that these two systems are being worked on by two different teams, and it is very hard to link them heavily while they are still under development. So we probably will only see a limited connection when Odyseey lands, but hopefully can then address these issues in a point release.
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:07:00 -
[815] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules?
We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:09:00 -
[816] - Quote
Rammix wrote:2devs: When an update is coming? Would be good to see some progress on SiSi.
Tomorrow is likely
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Space Wanderer
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:09:00 -
[817] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote: Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything). This and the heavy overlap with the Sensor Overlay system made us decide to remove them. There are other ways to find/track ships in systems; apart from the D-Scan, there are also the combat probes, which really are there to do what the DSP just did better. I should mention that weGÇÖre adjusting the sweep formation to not have any gaps.
Really a matter of opinion on this, but I am pretty sure people will adapt fast with combats, so nothing much to say about this. Personally I believe that the scanning overlay has much potential to be integrated with the directional scanner, and thus become an intel toold that could take the place of local. Hope you want to work along those lines, at least, becasue it really does not make sense to have an overlay that shows every site, but then doe not show the content of the directional scanner, which works exactly in the same way....
CCP SoniClover wrote: Regarding removing options GÇô there has been some criticism that weGÇÖre removing some edge-case functionality in how some players probe scan. Basically what weGÇÖre doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if theyGÇÖre used to scanning differently. WeGÇÖve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But weGÇÖre not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version GÇô basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.
This is where I believe you are dropping the ball, hard.
What you are doing here is to give a working UI to people who use the method YOU like, and a clunky interface to people who do not. From my standpoint it really looks like a child that bring away the ball if the other children don't want to play with the rules he wants.
I hope you realize what you just said: we give you formations if you scan like we tell you. If you don't, even if your method is potentially better than ours, you will have to waste additional time fighting the interface, so our method is better.
Seriously, I DO hope I am not understanding things correctly, because, if I do, this is the most unsandboxy thing that I read since the Incarna debacle, and the most themeparkish addition that I have seen in a LONG time in this game. I really really do hope you'll think long and hard before injecting a theme park approach to scanning. And the way to avoid it is straightforward, just add one or two customizable layouts... |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:15:00 -
[818] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Basically what weGÇÖre doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if theyGÇÖre used to scanning differently. WeGÇÖve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But weGÇÖre not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version GÇô basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.
Just let us save at least 2 custom formations, please.
System scanner needs more "memory": after switching the system map off for a moment then returning to it camera should center on the probes. Newly launched probes should be centered on the ship. When you (re)open the map camera should zoom out to show you the whole system - NOT from horizontal point of view but from above. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
343
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:27:00 -
[819] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:
This is where I believe you are dropping the ball, hard.
What you are doing here is to give a working UI to people who use the method YOU like, and a clunky interface to people who do not. From my standpoint it really looks like a child that bring away the ball if the other children don't want to play with the rules he wants.
Well, if that was the case, we would only create a single method and prohibit all others, which we are not doing.
Space Wanderer wrote: I hope you realize what you just said: we give you formations if you scan like we tell you. If you don't, even if your method is potentially better than ours, you will have to waste additional time fighting the interface, so our method is better.
All I'm saying is that we only have so much bandwidth and we chose to focus our attention on one method, while still aiming to keep as many of the others possible as we can. The key difference here is that while we can strife to keep the options possible, we can't promise to keep them viable. For the most part they should be - the fact you can launch many probes at once for instance should speed up any method you use. Moving your probes into a formation of your own making should also in most cases be no harder or more time consuming than with the current system. You should not be fighting the interface any more than you do currently, etc.
Space Wanderer wrote: Seriously, I DO hope I am not understanding things correctly, because, if I do, this is the most unsandboxy thing that I read since the Incarna debacle, and the most themeparkish addition that I have seen in a LONG time in this game. I really really do hope you'll think long and hard before injecting a theme park approach to scanning. And the way to avoid it is straightforward, just add one or two customizable layouts...
We're not telling people they HAVE to scan in only one way. There is still plenty of wiggle room to improvise and do things your way. On the other hand, the lack of focus of the system is one of the major pain points people have in learning the system and providing them with easier way to learn it is very beneficial IMO. Also, we do plan to allow people to save their own formations at some point, we just don't have time to implement it for Odyssey, but its been in the design from the start. We aim to add it in a point release if time permits.
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Rammix
FreeWorkers
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:28:00 -
[820] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:becasue it really does not make sense to have an overlay that shows every site, but then doe not show the content of the directional scanner, which works exactly in the same way....
If you mean cycled automatic usage of D-scan, it's an awful idea, even if the cycle lasts >10 seconds. At least without complete removal of Local everywhere in EVE. Because it would dumb down cat&mouse gameplay. If a mouse can easily, without effort know that a cat's already on the scene, it screwes up all the fun. For both. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
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Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:30:00 -
[821] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
I can understand your hesitance to have some sort of table output for the system overlay (would give use DSP functionality without launching a probe) but are there plans to at least link the systems somewhat. In my opinion the two systems should at least have the capabilities to:
1. If I scan with probes, and ignore certain signatures, they should be ignored on the overlay as well. 2. The scan strength should update on the overlay, ie when I get a 100% lock on a signature it should go green on the overlay as well.
Can you address if this kind of functionality is at least in the works?
I would absolutely want to see this happen. We want to tie these two systems work together as much as possible and will strife to do so in the long run. The issue is that these two systems are being worked on by two different teams, and it is very hard to link them heavily while they are still under development. So we probably will only see a limited connection when Odyseey lands, but hopefully can then address these issues in a point release.
This is a major flaw in your software development process. This relationship with two separate features should have been addressed from the beginning. |
Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
236
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:32:00 -
[822] - Quote
What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1010
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:47:00 -
[823] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). What is making scanning too easy is the 5% per level to scan time reduction, scan deviation reduction, and scan strength. It is too much, maybe 2% to all would be more in-line and then bump the support skills back up to 10% per level. I can understand why you wanted to give the Astrometrics skill something as you can launch 8 probes by default, but 5% per level is just too much. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
447
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:50:00 -
[824] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything). This and the heavy overlap with the Sensor Overlay system made us decide to remove them. There are other ways to find/track ships in systems; apart from the D-Scan, there are also the combat probes, which really are there to do what the DSP just did better.
This is a valid reason for removing them. You should have given that from the start instead of just asserting that they will be removed because they had become useless ;)
. |
Space Wanderer
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:56:00 -
[825] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Well, if that was the case, we would only create a single method and prohibit all others, which we are not doing.
Well, during the fascist period in Italy, people were allowed to vote against the fascist party too. It's just that there were strong incentives not to do so. Obviously CCP does not have anything to do with fascism, but I hope you understand my point, it's not enough to say "you are free to do as you wish" when you stack the deck heavily in your favor.
CCP SoniClover wrote:Moving your probes into a formation of your own making should also in most cases be no harder or more time consuming than with the current system.
No argument there. On the other hand moving my probes into a formation of YOUR making will require no time at all. If you can't see the problem right there, I don't know what else to tell. If you DO see the problem, but you don't have the resources to tackle it, see below:
CCP SoniClover wrote:We're not telling people they HAVE to scan in only one way. There is still plenty of wiggle room to improvise and do things your way. On the other hand, the lack of focus of the system is one of the major pain points people have in learning the system and providing them with easier way to learn it is very beneficial IMO. Also, we do plan to allow people to save their own formations at some point, we just don't have time to implement it for Odyssey, but its been in the design from the start. We aim to add it in a point release if time permits.
I think this is the issue. I can certainly understand that you don't have resources to implement formations right away, given the time constraints (I could argue that for this to be an exploration themed expansion CCP seems to have devoted a surprisingly small amount of resources to exploration, but I will not, in this post).
But if you don't want people like me going back to the jita monument, implementing customizable formations is something that should be top priority, and a commitment you should take with your playerbase and the (unconsulted) CSM even before odyssey release. A "we will do that when we have time" is likely to be implemented in a couple of years from now, and in the mean time all kind of damage will have already been done... |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:59:00 -
[826] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. -- THIS. You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back.
BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more.
p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Space Wanderer
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:01:00 -
[827] - Quote
Rammix wrote:At least without complete removal of Local everywhere in EVE.
Exactly my point. |
Victors Clone
madmen of the skies
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:02:00 -
[828] - Quote
Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:03:00 -
[829] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:No argument there. On the other hand moving my probes into a formation of YOUR making will require no time at all. If you can't see the problem right there, I don't know what else to tell
The basic probe pattern is, according to many experienced scanners, inferior to their advanced scanning techniques. Wouldn't it be dumbing down then if these advanced patterns are easily recalled? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:05:00 -
[830] - Quote
there was a WHOLE WEEKEND of merited discussion about DSP and you (CCP SoniClover) dismiss it all with one paragraph?
i think that to compensate for the removal of DSP, that you should allow Combats to expand to 256au. this would be a fair substitute. (and at the same time refund us our SP invested to use DSP)
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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:05:00 -
[831] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:Rammix wrote:At least without complete removal of Local everywhere in EVE. Exactly my point.
Yes, if you add the option to hot drop anywhere in eve (well, outside HS obviously) and give easy to use route information to any target anywhere. Deal? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Space Wanderer
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:06:00 -
[832] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:The basic probe pattern is, according to many experienced scanners, inferior to their advanced scanning techniques. Wouldn't it be dumbing down then if these advanced patterns are easily recalled?
1/10 |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:07:00 -
[833] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:i think that to compensate for the removal of DSP, that you should allow Combats to expand to 256au. this would be a fair substitute. (and at the same time refund us our SP invested to use DSP)
Why would you get SP back? The skill isn't removed and still has valid uses. It would be unfair to refund SP every time a skill changes.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
TZeer
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:08:00 -
[834] - Quote
Octoven wrote:TZeer wrote:
Still no word about the actual scanning time with combat probes??
C'mon CCP, seriously?
You are about to release a completely redesigned line of battleships, and you haven't fixed the main reason for one of the races bonuses being of no use.
Wake up!
I am completely confused about this statement, are you talking about the new line of battleships or the scanning system??
CCP is redoing the battleships. Cool
CCP is "improving" the scanning/probing. Cool
Caldari as a race, has a range bonus on every T1 battleship they have.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% to large Hybrid Turret optimal range +4% Shield resistances per level (-1% per level)
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire +10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength 25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range 25% bonus to ECM Burst range
The apoc of the Amarr also get's a bonus that greatly lean towards ranged combat.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: +7.5% to Large Energy Turret optimal range +7.5% Large Energy Turret tracking speed (replaced large energy turret cap use)
All this is nice and awesome etc.
But what is not cool, is that proper ranged combat is not, and has not been a viable tactic since the probing time got reduced to 5 sec.
Try and warp in a BS at range and see how fast it will take someone to get your position.
Your position is probed and scanned down before you have even aligned, locked or fired 1 shot.
And CCP just keeps ignoring the issue. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
90
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:11:00 -
[835] - Quote
Victors Clone wrote:Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128).
Not everyone used the DSP in this way. I'm looking forward to trying out the changes.
My request is if I create a formation and set the probes at different sizes that it maintains that relationship even if I resize them. If Idrop 8 combats and have 4 at 8au, and the other 4 at 2au if I make them smaller as a group they will go to 4/1 or 2/0.5. Not at the computer to see if it's currently possible but that would offer options for those with Astrometrics 5 and using 8 probes. |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:28:00 -
[836] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Space Wanderer wrote:Rammix wrote:At least without complete removal of Local everywhere in EVE. Exactly my point. Yes, if you add the option to hot drop anywhere in eve (well, outside HS obviously) and give easy to use route information to any target anywhere. Deal? Jumps and kills statistics refreshed every 10-15 minutes would or could solve the problem of finding targets. In addition to the previous, increasing the D-scan range up to 28 a.u. would help, too.
Removal of local - sure is not a thing that can be done with just one functional change, but with the new overlay thingie it can be more real than before. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:33:00 -
[837] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Victors Clone wrote:Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). Not everyone used the DSP in this way. I'm looking forward to trying out the changes. My request is if I create a formation and set the probes at different sizes that it maintains that relationship even if I resize them. If Idrop 8 combats and have 4 at 8au, and the other 4 at 2au if I make them smaller as a group they will go to 4/1 or 2/0.5. Not at the computer to see if it's currently possible but that would offer options for those with Astrometrics 5 and using 8 probes. Ability to assign probes to 2 or more different groups controlled separately would be nice too. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:41:00 -
[838] - Quote
All the cahnges are quite good, except the one that the probes reappear magically when u dock or jump out of system or a wh. CCP this EVE, it is ok for people to loose isk by forgetting probes or get stuck in a WH. Making magically appear probes in our cargo holdes IS DUMBING DOWN EVE. Rest is pretty fine. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1365
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:47:00 -
[839] - Quote
Victors Clone wrote:Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128).
When the System-Scanner-Thingy can populate my scan results window with a list of sigs it found so I don't have to spin, mouseover, manually write down info, wash repeat, THEN it will replace my DSP's functionality for PVE.
Until then it is merely eye candy and barely useful as a substitute. |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:59:00 -
[840] - Quote
CCP SoniClover,
Can we have the normal list? These bars are not cutting it... We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
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Luminocity
The Dark Revenants PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:12:00 -
[841] - Quote
Hi, I'd like to state that I fully agree with most criticism provided here towards the new scanning features (formations, system scanner, UI changes, etc.). Please don't fix something that is not broken by watering it down to not require any skill from the player whatsoever..
EVE IS HARD. As with most things it should be easy to get in to and difficult to master (as scanning is today).
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:23:00 -
[842] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the great feedback. Regarding removing the DSP
I think the main gripe is not having it as a list in the scanner window as it operates now, and not having the functionality of the old list system in the new (resizing columns and sorting rows).
Also its the info overloads in some systems that will happen, the new brackets are TOO BIG, did you lot forget that they will all be on or very near the planetary plane so overlaps will happen that will make some unreadable due to planets being behind others from many spots in system.
Give us the list as well as the in space brackets, the info is already at the client from the Database so that is not an excuse, you only need one instance is not an excuse, brackets in space and the overview display the exact same info so its not a new or different concept.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:24:00 -
[843] - Quote
CCP GenericDev wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the great feedback.
WeGÇÖre writing a dev blog that basically outlines how we don't give much of a damn about three or four multiple page threads throughout the forums, detailing player issues with our new scanning system. The fact is that we completely dropped the ball by not soliciting input from CSM and advanced probers about the sort of emergent gameplay that you're all describing, and have inadvertently squashed it with our new system. But because we spent so much time on it, we can't really justify going back and redoing any of it now, so you'll simply have to deal.
FIFY. Sorry if you don't like it, but everyone's concerns really can be dismissed in a single paragraph. No need to go on and on about it for three. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:29:00 -
[844] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:The issue is that these two systems are being worked on by two different teams, and it is very hard to link them heavily while they are still under development. So we probably will only see a limited connection when Odyseey lands, but hopefully can then address these issues in a point release.
Two teams, so is there someone who is looking at all that code from a 3rd perspective and going, OMG, that will be an issue when we upgrade this or that function or try to add additional functions or upgrade whats there?
..........or is it a wing and a prayer effort with no documentation like olden CCP days? |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:36:00 -
[845] - Quote
So, my feedback:
1) that alt-shift for scaling the formation sucks big time. Make scaling just a single modifier key, not double. 999999% of the times we're either moving or scaling the probes, not moving the individually. 2) When i've locked something (scanned it to 100%) the sig disappears. This is not really good, these cosmic sigs are not moving, make it work like on TQ. once 100% stays at 100%. 3) i'm missing deadspace probes to keep targets identified. DSP range was awesome and made things easier. Either put back DSPs or bump regular combat's range to 256AU please. 4) Upon entering a solar system, is it intentional that the scanner runs? The effecit is there, however i'm not seeing results popping up always, and the table on the scanner is never populated - for that i have to press scan manually.
And i prefered the former method for finding grav sites, this one seems too easy.
In a nutshell that's i could find at a qucik glance looking at sisi.
|
Victors Clone
madmen of the skies
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:47:00 -
[846] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Victors Clone wrote:Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). When the System-Scanner-Thingy can populate my scan results window with a list of sigs it found so I don't have to spin, mouseover, manually write down info, wash repeat, THEN it will replace my DSP's functionality for PVE. Until then it is merely eye candy and barely useful as a substitute.
No big deal, CCP will simply put your in space shown signatures in the Scanner-Probe-Window with all the required informations (Problem solved for the hardcore Caldari-Space-Tengu-Pro's and Co. :) ). BAM the on board PvE-DSP is born. |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
360
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:49:00 -
[847] - Quote
Bug with the overlay: You cannot align or move in the direction of a displayed signature. You can click anywhere on the overlayed icons, even the edge and your ship refuses to move. This is kind of annoying because theres no align option and you can't manually do it either. The overlay is stealing focus from the mouse clicks. The icons are rather big as well which means this a bigger pita. |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
360
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:53:00 -
[848] - Quote
Let us sort the scanner results! Some of us want to be able to sort the 100+ sigs in wormholes fast. My alliance in particular hates carebearing and we scan wormholes all day long. We know what we want, and we don't want your carebear sites. Lets us copy and paste the scanner list! Some of us have tools that parse the list Let us have smaller rows in the signature panel! Not all of us have the screen real estate to have the signature panel be 3000px tall to fit the 50+ sigs. The smaller rows in the old system were just tolerable. |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:56:00 -
[849] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Sheena Tzash wrote:If the system scanner IS running can we PLEASE have a constant D-Scan. It doesn't make any sence that my ships sensors are looking for sites on the edge of space and yet if I want to see if someone is creeping up behind me I have to manually click a button every 10 seconds or so. [sarcasm] Maybe they should also warn you that someone in a pvp-fitted ship is coming towards you, when he is 3 jumps away? Or maybe you want to know when someone activates narrowed directional scan on you? No? [/sarcasm]
Wow that would be great! [/sarcasm]
My point being is that the system wide scanner can tell scan constantly and tell me if an anomly from the other side of the galaxy has gone yet I need to manually press a button for anything on the grid. Seems a little bit backwards since the larger anomolies are less likely to change where as the local Situation would and the local situation is far more important.
Will it be different from someone clicking the 'scan' button every 5 / 10 seconds? No? So whats the problem?
|
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 15:57:00 -
[850] - Quote
Can you please give us an update when the new stuff has been applied to Sisi as well as a mirror from TQ so we can test this with current skills? Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:09:00 -
[851] - Quote
Magic Crisp wrote:So, my feedback:
1) that alt-shift for scaling the formation sucks big time. Make scaling just a single modifier key, not double. 999999% of the times we're either moving or scaling the probes, not moving the individually.
Just drag on the sphere. It resizes and moves probes to the center. Easy.
This functionality would be great for 2 probe groups of 4 as well. That way you could place 2 sets in different locations and be able to shrink both at the same time if you choose.
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1049
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:16:00 -
[852] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Space Wanderer wrote:
This is where I believe you are dropping the ball, hard.
What you are doing here is to give a working UI to people who use the method YOU like, and a clunky interface to people who do not. From my standpoint it really looks like a child that bring away the ball if the other children don't want to play with the rules he wants.
Well, if that was the case, we would only create a single method and prohibit all others, which we are not doing. Space Wanderer wrote: I hope you realize what you just said: we give you formations if you scan like we tell you. If you don't, even if your method is potentially better than ours, you will have to waste additional time fighting the interface, so our method is better.
All I'm saying is that we only have so much bandwidth and we chose to focus our attention on one method, while still aiming to keep as many of the others possible as we can. The key difference here is that while we can strife to keep the options possible, we can't promise to keep them viable. For the most part they should be - the fact you can launch many probes at once for instance should speed up any method you use. Moving your probes into a formation of your own making should also in most cases be no harder or more time consuming than with the current system. You should not be fighting the interface any more than you do currently, etc. Space Wanderer wrote: Seriously, I DO hope I am not understanding things correctly, because, if I do, this is the most unsandboxy thing that I read since the Incarna debacle, and the most themeparkish addition that I have seen in a LONG time in this game. I really really do hope you'll think long and hard before injecting a theme park approach to scanning. And the way to avoid it is straightforward, just add one or two customizable layouts...
We're not telling people they HAVE to scan in only one way. There is still plenty of wiggle room to improvise and do things your way. On the other hand, the lack of focus of the system is one of the major pain points people have in learning the system and providing them with easier way to learn it is very beneficial IMO. Also, we do plan to allow people to save their own formations at some point, we just don't have time to implement it for Odyssey, but its been in the design from the start. We aim to add it in a point release if time permits.
i will not go into detail but just try to confront you with an analogy. if fozzie went about ship balancing in the same way you go about probing, he would make it so that each ship you assemble automatically comes with the PVP fit he likes most and if you want to use another fit, you have to manually unfit it and THEN fit what you want. while this change would certainly benefit new playersGäó, it would introduce bias and greatly reduce the depth of the game i.e. boil frogs, kill the sandbox yadda yadda.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
J1LT
Interstella Misfits
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:32:00 -
[853] - Quote
My one HUGE gripe with the new system is the inability to tell my probes to ignore certain site types! (looking at gas sites here)
I can understand the removal of DSP's but atleast give us the option to search for sigs we are after.
I have 0 interest in finding a gas site EVER, where as other people ONLY want gas sites.
As we no longer have the ability to scan for only certain sig types, why is the option to only scan for Data/Relic/Gas/Combat still in the filters in the scanner?
Obviously some one at CCP thought about it as the sig names have changed from grav/radar/yadayada to the new gas/relic/data..
Making content more accessible is one thing, but shoe horning it on someone is another! |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1049
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:39:00 -
[854] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. -- THIS. You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back. BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more. p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons.
THIS ten times over.
even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing drones in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
J1LT
Interstella Misfits
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:45:00 -
[855] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:
THIS ten times over.
even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing drones in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.
+1 |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:47:00 -
[856] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Rammix wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. -- THIS. You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back. BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more. p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons. THIS ten times over. even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing drones in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.
Or take it to another level. You can leave probes behind, but they are able to be scanned out, hacked, and an anticloak virus inserted so if you do recall them, you can't cloak for a minute etc..
Let's add to the options. |
Hathrul
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
239
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:58:00 -
[857] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough).
could you at least try to balance the new modules. the bonuses are insane. if they were going to cost 2b a piece, fine. but as they are they do remove any need to train any skills.
astrometrics is a usefull skill now as it gives a tripple bonus. the other bonusses are cut in half. this means a single module compensates for 4 levels of the secondary scanning skills. you have entirely removed any use what so ever from these skills
bonuses should be more along the line of:
deviation t1: 5%, T2: 10 % probe strenght T1: 5%, T2: 10% Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1368
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:28:00 -
[858] - Quote
Victors Clone wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Victors Clone wrote:Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). When the System-Scanner-Thingy can populate my scan results window with a list of sigs it found so I don't have to spin, mouseover, manually write down info, wash repeat, THEN it will replace my DSP's functionality for PVE. Until then it is merely eye candy and barely useful as a substitute. No big deal, CCP will simply put your in space shown signatures in the Scanner-Probe-Window with all the required informations (Problem solved for the hardcore Caldari-Space-Tengu-Pro's and Co. :) ). BAM the on board PvE-DSP is born.
Hey you were the one with the claim that the System-Scanner-Thingy obsoletes Deep space probes. I was simply pointing out how far it fall short in its current state. |
Space Wanderer
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:32:00 -
[859] - Quote
Hathrul wrote:Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken
Err... noone cares? Ask people ninja-exploring in lowsec who have a whooping 2.3 seconds to check for probes in their directional scanner. It's almost like having invisible probes...
Yes, it's equally broken, but at least there is a bug here that disables stacking penalty. I'll check again when the bug is fixed. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1011
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:33:00 -
[860] - Quote
Hathrul wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). could you at least try to balance the new modules. the bonuses are insane. if they were going to cost 2b a piece, fine. but as they are they do remove any need to train any skills. astrometrics is a usefull skill now as it gives a tripple bonus. the other bonusses are cut in half. this means a single module compensates for 4 levels of the secondary scanning skills. you have entirely removed any use what so ever from these skills bonuses should be more along the line of: deviation t1: 5%, T2: 10 % probe strenght T1: 5%, T2: 10% Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken The astrometric skill needs balanced a 5% bonus to 3 effects is huge, if you take it to 4 only because that is what is required for astrometric pinpointing you can compensate the rest of the skill levels with a module or two. 2% per level for Astrometrics is plenty good enough. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
River Atabasca
Grey Legion of Death
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:37:00 -
[861] - Quote
Hathrul wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). could you at least try to balance the new modules. the bonuses are insane. if they were going to cost 2b a piece, fine. but as they are they do remove any need to train any skills. astrometrics is a usefull skill now as it gives a tripple bonus. the other bonusses are cut in half. this means a single module compensates for 4 levels of the secondary scanning skills. you have entirely removed any use what so ever from these skills bonuses should be more along the line of: deviation t1: 5%, T2: 10 % probe strenght T1: 5%, T2: 10% Speed: noone cares really. i didnt check but I assume its equally broken
totally agree. CCP, if you are so sure for introducing these new modules then return me my ~4 mil SP's trained fort scan.
the problem is: 1 new module does 4 time more than about a month of training
I say NO for theses new modules, but yes for everything else. |
Space Wanderer
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 17:37:00 -
[862] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote: i will not go into detail but instead just try to confront you with an analogy. if fozzie went about ship balancing in the same way you go about probing, he would make it so that each ship you assemble automatically comes with the PVP fit he likes most and if you want to use another fit, you have to manually unfit it and THEN fit what you want.
Actually, considering that the time gained in this case IS the module, the analogy would be more along the lines of:
"if fozzie went about ship balancing in the same way you go about probing, he would make it so that each ship you assemble automatically comes with the PVP fit he likes most for free and if you want to use another fit, you don't get any free module and have to pay for each of them."
That's the extent of what seems to be going on now... |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:00:00 -
[863] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
I can understand your hesitance to have some sort of table output for the system overlay (would give use DSP functionality without launching a probe) but are there plans to at least link the systems somewhat. In my opinion the two systems should at least have the capabilities to:
1. If I scan with probes, and ignore certain signatures, they should be ignored on the overlay as well. 2. The scan strength should update on the overlay, ie when I get a 100% lock on a signature it should go green on the overlay as well.
Can you address if this kind of functionality is at least in the works?
I would absolutely want to see this happen. We want to tie these two systems work together as much as possible and will strife to do so in the long run. The issue is that these two systems are being worked on by two different teams, and it is very hard to link them heavily while they are still under development. So we probably will only see a limited connection when Odyseey lands, but hopefully can then address these issues in a point release.
Those things CAN NOT BE SEPARATED: they are one thing called scanning.
Please, please dont tell meyou make another infamous Unified Inventory thing that will have to be fixed over 2 expansions.
You can not just take away functions and blame other team on not implementing them. THIS is scanning thread and this is the palce where we will piost our concerns. If You guys decide to blur responsibilities, you will end up with tones of angry scaners on day one of Odyssey.
BTW can we get someone that have some decision power in here? CCP Soundvawe? CCP Seagul? Someone that can coordinate efforts on of both teams to not destroy scanning experience?
Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
TZeer
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:03:00 -
[864] - Quote
Why don't you introduce adjustable scanning???
Where you can decide how accurate and fast you want the results? I'm thinking mostly towards PVP now.
5 sec scan will give you a quick and rough position, but not very accurate. Deviation would be more then the range of an Arazu with warp disruptors. (No more click button, warp and instapoint before the other have any chance of escape)
20-25 sec scan will give you a highly accurate position on a player controlled ship. Making it possible to warp right on top of it.
This allows for quick re-positioning on the field for fleets, but no longer insta warps on top of each other as soon as they appear on grid.
|
Victors Clone
madmen of the skies
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:05:00 -
[865] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Victors Clone wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Victors Clone wrote:Could someone explain to me please all the angriness developed by the fact that the DSP's are beeing removed ? With the new System-Scanner-Thingy, it makes the PvE side of the DSP's obsolete and for their PvP function the Combat-Probes take their place. One solution in solving this redundancy issue could be a Buff for the Combat-Probes in radius (e.g. from MAX_RANGE = 64 to MAX_RANGE = 128). When the System-Scanner-Thingy can populate my scan results window with a list of sigs it found so I don't have to spin, mouseover, manually write down info, wash repeat, THEN it will replace my DSP's functionality for PVE. Until then it is merely eye candy and barely useful as a substitute. No big deal, CCP will simply put your in space shown signatures in the Scanner-Probe-Window with all the required informations (Problem solved for the hardcore Caldari-Space-Tengu-Pro's and Co. :) ). BAM the on board PvE-DSP is born. Hey you were the one with the claim that the System-Scanner-Thingy obsoletes Deep space probes. I was simply pointing out how far it fall short in its current state.
1) System-Scanner-Thingy still obsoletes the DSP 2) That is why it is called TEST-SERVER, to enhance the newly developed concepts with your own " what i would like to have "/ "it could be better with" -ideas
|
Savira Terrant
N0IR.
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:13:00 -
[866] - Quote
Hey guys and gals,
just want to chime in to let you know i tested scanning on SiSi today.
My feedback:
- Probed sigs do not stay at 100% anymore, that's bad. - Cannot copy the list anymore, very bad. - Contrast ist MUCH too low between selected and unselected state of a list entry in both probe and sig list, can't differetiate. - Launching 7 probes at once, bad-ass (but makes the scanning even faster, that might not be a good idea for PVP - hey you could always give us an insta-self-updating d-scan instead... just sain'). - Not being able to launch 1 probe, not so much. - No more deep probes for very large systems, sucks balls (overlay scanner does not show ships and you cannot scan down one with deeps anyway, oh and I am not interested in quite a few sig types...). - Pressing shift moves only one probe. Ugh. Ahem, before you had to press shift to move them all at once... so guess what i do all the time instead of what I want to do. There are people out there who do not even think about the buttons they have to press anymore. Those are ****** now. - The formations you added are only viable for sites. We need the same pinpoint formation without the middle probe and a formation that launches only one probe (I agree about the formation in itself, I used the same all the time) so we have at least something for PVP.
Should features:
-Visually warping to the signature-symbol of the overlay scanner. -Symbols of the overlay to update changes by system scanner.
I realise that much might have been said already and some are being changed soon, but I still wanted to add my voice to that feedback. . |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1369
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:36:00 -
[867] - Quote
Victors Clone wrote:1) System-Scanner-Thingy still obsoletes the DSP
Again, in its current state, no it doesn't. Go hop into a nice Wormhole system with 50+ sigs and tell me how that on screen feedback looks. Yea completely useless. especially considering I cannot even filter out or ignore results from the new system scanner.
Victors Clone wrote:2) That is why it is called TEST-SERVER, to enhance the newly developed concepts with your own " what i would like to have "/ "it could be better with" -ideas .... and making them better
You are correct. And this is the feedback thread for the test server. Which I have been giving plenty of feedback. You however decide to post a "why is everyone complaining" reply, which if you had read any of the last 40 some pages you would have seen plenty of answers.
Why not post something constructive rather than a thinly veiled "quite whining" post.
|
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:02:00 -
[868] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough).
You rendered millions of SP moot, and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe we'll get some compensation eventually. True masterpiece, CCP, again fixing things that weren't broken in the first place. |
Moth Eisig
The Trident Brotherhood
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:17:00 -
[869] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Space Wanderer wrote:becasue it really does not make sense to have an overlay that shows every site, but then doe not show the content of the directional scanner, which works exactly in the same way....
If you mean cycled automatic usage of D-scan, it's an awful idea, even if the cycle lasts >10 seconds. At least without complete removal of Local everywhere in EVE. Because it would dumb down cat&mouse gameplay. If a mouse can easily, without effort know that a cat's already on the scene, it screwes up all the fun. For both.
D-scan doesn't take smarts as it is. It's just tedious clickage. Automating d-scan won't help afkers/alt-tabbers nor will it give alert players any advantage over what they have now. They just won't have to give themselves carpal tunnel syndrome to get the information anymore. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:27:00 -
[870] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote: D-scan doesn't take smarts as it is. It's just tedious clickage. Automating d-scan won't help afkers/alt-tabbers nor will it give alert players any advantage over what they have now. They just won't have to give themselves carpal tunnel syndrome to get the information anymore.
You don't understand. Nu-Dscan will emit a piercing alarm upon the discovery of a new signature, and forcibly bring the client up from the background, so as to better benefit new players. This saves much hassle. |
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1370
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:43:00 -
[871] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Rammix wrote:Space Wanderer wrote:becasue it really does not make sense to have an overlay that shows every site, but then doe not show the content of the directional scanner, which works exactly in the same way....
If you mean cycled automatic usage of D-scan, it's an awful idea, even if the cycle lasts >10 seconds. At least without complete removal of Local everywhere in EVE. Because it would dumb down cat&mouse gameplay. If a mouse can easily, without effort know that a cat's already on the scene, it screwes up all the fun. For both. D-scan doesn't take smarts as it is. It's just tedious clickage. Automating d-scan won't help afkers/alt-tabbers nor will it give alert players any advantage over what they have now. They just won't have to give themselves carpal tunnel syndrome to get the information anymore.
Sure it will. An auto repeat dscan will give you lots of easy ship intel. By leaving it manual it allows for mistakes, either by people getting lazy or forgetting to click. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:43:00 -
[872] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). What is making scanning too easy is the 5% per level to scan time reduction, scan deviation reduction, and scan strength. It is too much, maybe 2% to all would be more in-line and then bump the support skills back up to 10% per level. I can understand why you wanted to give the Astrometrics skill something as you can launch 8 probes by default, but 5% per level is just too much.
I dont see the issue with this, honestly it is exactly the same ratio (assuming you have 5/5/5/5) as it is now, you essentially are taking two skills with 100% effectiveness and killing one to 0%. So, to compensate, you rob the other skill of half its effectiveness and apply it to the other. Astrimetrics on TQ only effects probe amounts and not scanning amounts. Thus CCP has taken the specialized skills, removed half their bonuses and applied them to a skill that never had bonuses. The ratio stays the same at 10%, it is just spread over two different skills now.
In all honesty, Astrometrics now has meaning again. If you have it trained to level 5 you get 25% to deviation, strength and scan time. If a noob has Astrometrics 1 they only get 5% so you are still being rewarded as a player for having trained it up. The specialized skills require Astrometrics 3 and 4.
So lets assume you dont have Astro 5 and only 4. At this point lets also say you were a good little scanner and trained those specialized skills to ehhh say level 4. Ok, so you get the 5% from astro x 4 giving you 20% to all three areas there; and you are getting 5% from each of the three specialized skills x 4 giving you 20% there. A newer player may only have astro 1 or 2 which gives them only 5-20%. You still get a massive scanning edge over them. Infact it isn't until they reach lvl 3 that they can even train the other two specialized skills. I think 5% is a feasible amount, lowering it 2% and raising the other 3 specialized to 8% IMO depreciates the value of the astrometrics skill |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:52:00 -
[873] - Quote
Firstoff, why are the new modules passive? An active one would force you to do the trade of eigher being cloaked or scanning faster. Now it-¦s only bad for the few people who tackle in their scanners.
Secondly, there is a lot of good feedback from very experienced scanners in here. Please use it. If you have to push back the features to odysee 1.1, tough love, but better than putting something bad in the game.
And it is not quiet the correct place to leave this feedback, but since it-¦s connected: Overall I am questioning the entire gamedesign of the theme. Exploration. That is not "running around and getting stuff shoved up your face" like the new overlay does. It should be about getting into something specialized for the task, looking around for something specific and having to search hard. Instead, the new bonuses enable you to scan the sites down faster than the time needed to warp to the next gate. And will you find something cool at the end? Unless you have a good combatship to clear the higher combatsites you-¦ll get what? Some stuff for invention and rigparts. YAYY...
Faster scanning will not really help new players in exploration, but the ones who are already used to it. If you want to get something to draw low SP players into it, without them being just beaten to the price every time by someone more experienced, change the overall idea how the sites work. The hackingminigame is a good start for that. Now put the hackable thing into an asteriod you have to maually pilot in for 30+ secs and let-¦s see how many min/maxers do even bother to do those sites. |
Haulie Berry
709
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:52:00 -
[874] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough).
Honestly, reconsider this, please.
Even in the current mechanics, it's just too damn easy to scan down PvE sigs.
I do much of my exploration in an Ishtar with a T1 launcher and standard probes and I can trivially scan down anything I want to find (mostly combat sites).
I don't need a bonused ship. I don't need grav cap rigs. I don't need a T2 or faction launcher, I don't need faction probes, I don't need virtue, and soon, there will be a bunch of new modules I don't need, either.
Oh, sure, I could probably do it *faster* if I had all of those things, but as it is right now, there isn't enough of a reason to make that compromise.
|
Mario delTorres
Advanced Construction Technology Honey Badger Coalition
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:02:00 -
[875] - Quote
I found really problem. When I scan with 16AU range I dont find a site I can find with lower strength (32AU range).
When I scan spread formation default range (16 au): https://www.evernote.com/shard/s58/sh/ac913293-4c7b-4a2e-be45-4b5737a06409/764cd5f33b606a681d1d92850b49eff7/deep/0/Zrzut%20ekranu%2013.05.2013%2022:54.png
When i scan spread formation with 32 au range: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s58/sh/13c85aed-04b3-453f-9921-07e313a1d531/7a821d2c43cb25231f53c76298498ea3/deep/0/Zrzut%20ekranu%2013.05.2013%2022:55.png
There is a site in central area, not shown after scan with greater strange of probes. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:06:00 -
[876] - Quote
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). You rendered millions of SP moot, and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe we'll get some compensation eventually. True masterpiece, CCP, again fixing things that weren't broken in the first place.
Fixing things that weren't broken in the first place is what the real world likes to call enhancement and progress...to put that into perspective. Google is not broken the way it is...it could sit happily where its at and make a killing, but they are choosing to enhance and expand the company by introducing Google Fibre. Sooo yeah occasionally one must make changes to something not because its broken but because its old. I mean technically I have a computer with 1 gig of ram and running XP. It isn't broken, I can do some pretty fifty stuff on it and it serves me well very functionally, BUT I can also gut it, replace it with better hardware, and get a better performing computer. If I never touched it because it simply was functional...it would never get any better and quite frankly neither would this game. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1013
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:38:00 -
[877] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). What is making scanning too easy is the 5% per level to scan time reduction, scan deviation reduction, and scan strength. It is too much, maybe 2% to all would be more in-line and then bump the support skills back up to 10% per level. I can understand why you wanted to give the Astrometrics skill something as you can launch 8 probes by default, but 5% per level is just too much. I dont see the issue with this, honestly it is exactly the same ratio (assuming you have 5/5/5/5) as it is now, you essentially are taking two skills with 100% effectiveness and killing one to 0%. So, to compensate, you rob the other skill of half its effectiveness and apply it to the other. Astrimetrics on TQ only effects probe amounts and not scanning amounts. Thus CCP has taken the specialized skills, removed half their bonuses and applied them to a skill that never had bonuses. The ratio stays the same at 10%, it is just spread over two different skills now. In all honesty, Astrometrics now has meaning again. If you have it trained to level 5 you get 25% to deviation, strength and scan time. If a noob has Astrometrics 1 they only get 5% so you are still being rewarded as a player for having trained it up. The specialized skills require Astrometrics 3 and 4. So lets assume you dont have Astro 5 and only 4. At this point lets also say you were a good little scanner and trained those specialized skills to ehhh say level 4. Ok, so you get the 5% from astro x 4 giving you 20% to all three areas there; and you are getting 5% from each of the three specialized skills x 4 giving you 20% there. A newer player may only have astro 1 or 2 which gives them only 5-20%. You still get a massive scanning edge over them. Infact it isn't until they reach lvl 3 that they can even train the other two specialized skills. I think 5% is a feasible amount, lowering it 2% and raising the other 3 specialized to 8% IMO depreciates the value of the astrometrics skill Then you are missing the point, I just took a fresh alt I made on the test server and warped it around null sec till I found a 3% signal, the alt was in a Navitas, had a T1 probe launcher, and T1 core scanner probes, and Astrometrics 4. I successfully scanned down the site in 5 scans. Why do I need to train Astrometrics past 3 or 4 if I can scan down sites successfully in a unbonused ship with T1 equipment. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1062
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:55:00 -
[878] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). You rendered millions of SP moot, and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe we'll get some compensation eventually. True masterpiece, CCP, again fixing things that weren't broken in the first place. Fixing things that weren't broken in the first place is what the real world likes to call enhancement and progress...to put that into perspective. Google is not broken the way it is...it could sit happily where its at and make a killing, but they are choosing to enhance and expand the company by introducing Google Fibre. Sooo yeah occasionally one must make changes to something not because its broken but because its old. I mean technically I have a computer with 1 gig of ram and running XP. It isn't broken, I can do some pretty nifty stuff on it and it serves me well very functionally, BUT I can also gut it, replace it with better hardware, and get a better performing computer. If I never touched it because it simply was functional...it would never get any better and quite frankly neither would this game.
good job comparing real life applications with a computer game. hinthint: the rules of chess barely changed in the last 500 years and yet somehow it is still popular. oh, and if you think fiber is google's hottest rod in the fire, check again.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:04:00 -
[879] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Octoven wrote:Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Was it intentional to make scanning so easy that there is no need to train anything beyond Astrometrics 3? Wi you consider adjusting signature strengths to compensate for the new system and modules? We probably will not touch existing signatures all that much, but with these changes we're opening up the possibility for new signatures in the future. We have some plans in this regard, maybe for winter (can't promise anything tough). You rendered millions of SP moot, and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe we'll get some compensation eventually. True masterpiece, CCP, again fixing things that weren't broken in the first place. Fixing things that weren't broken in the first place is what the real world likes to call enhancement and progress...to put that into perspective. Google is not broken the way it is...it could sit happily where its at and make a killing, but they are choosing to enhance and expand the company by introducing Google Fibre. Sooo yeah occasionally one must make changes to something not because its broken but because its old. I mean technically I have a computer with 1 gig of ram and running XP. It isn't broken, I can do some pretty nifty stuff on it and it serves me well very functionally, BUT I can also gut it, replace it with better hardware, and get a better performing computer. If I never touched it because it simply was functional...it would never get any better and quite frankly neither would this game. good job comparing real life applications with a computer game. hinthint: the rules of chess barely changed in the last 500 years and yet somehow it is still popular. oh, and if you think fiber is google's hottest rod in the fire, check again.
Real life applications DO apply here, it isn't just a game that we are playing. There is a living and breathing company involved in its continued development, not to mention a thriving economy that can be just as competitive as the real world. yes, it is a virtual environment with human condition that makes it seem real. Thus real world application would also seem to apply in this manner as well.
As for your hint, indeed the mechanics of chess has not changed much in 500 years; HOWEVER, the presentation of it has. I am pretty sure we didnt have glass boards and pieces back that far or even recorded chess games. As technology progressed, so too did the visual representation of chess. Just as they also did not have computer AI opponents either. The point here is that although the mechanics remain the same, the visual representation has changed with an ever changing world. So too has EVE, thus the mechanics of scanning are the same...you still need probes, you still need to move said probes, and ect. However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:25:00 -
[880] - Quote
Octoven wrote: Real life applications DO apply here, it isn't just a game that we are playing. There is a living and breathing company involved in its continued development, not to mention a thriving economy that can be just as competitive as the real world. yes, it is a virtual environment with human condition that makes it seem real. Thus real world application would also seem to apply in this manner as well.
As for your hint, indeed the mechanics of chess has not changed much in 500 years; HOWEVER, the presentation of it has. I am pretty sure we didnt have glass boards and pieces back that far or even recorded chess games. As technology progressed, so too did the visual representation of chess. Just as they also did not have computer AI opponents either. The point here is that although the mechanics remain the same, the visual representation has changed with an ever changing world. So too has EVE, thus the mechanics of scanning are the same...you still need probes, you still need to move said probes, and ect. However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point.
but you still cant move 7 pawns at the same time can you?
CCP like any company makes mistakes, look at Incarna, they got their balls kicked, Ody looks at this time capable of delivering the same again unless they listen, throw out their preconceptions and develop the game instead of change it to reflect what they see other companies doing as they all rush for short term cash. If you care about CCP, you personally would want to keep its unique selling points and remember that the game has kudos for its steep learning curve, harshness of consequences, the meta game environment, the inventiveness of the players (which exposes the limitations of a small design team that always wants shiny) and most importantly the SANDBOX that is only limited by the players intellect, thats what keeps people subscribing and draws long term players in (better have 1 man for 5 years than 5 for 1, for long term CCP survival. |
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:28:00 -
[881] - Quote
Not really.
When I have to start keeping pencil and paper notes to replace what was formerly a readily available, copy-pastable UI list in game, that's not enhancement, that's a step backwards. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1063
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:53:00 -
[882] - Quote
Octoven wrote:[...]However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point. i have to hold back right now to avoid comments regarding your intelligence. if only the visuals were affected, there would be no debate whatsoever. we're talking game mechanics, thus the chess example. imagine the chess associations of the world decided that you have to always open with the queen's gambit. what would that do to the game? the removal of DSPs, the silly instant recall, the barely passable new signature list and all the other 'features' are just that: bad additions to the mechanics, the rules by which EVE is played.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:35:00 -
[883] - Quote
It's really hard to believe that a single person who ever actually used scanner functionality ingame on Tranquility okayed these changes before they made it to Singularity. Between having to spin the camera around to see the results and the results disappearing after mere moments without populating scanner window, the "in space" view of anomalies is a joke and I can't imagine it amounting to anything other than some noise every time you change system or undock before you bring up the now ridiculously less powerful scanner window and do everything as you did before Odyssey.
The scan results list lost almost all of its functionality just to accomodate the stupid, ever-redrawing-while-scrolling "progress bar" scan result strength view, clearly this is more important than the actual scan progress bar before the results appear. If this had been tested under ~real life~ serious-internet-spaceship-business circumstances, you'd have noticed within moments that scrolling through 20+ (for pve, hundreds in pvp) effectively unsorted scan results is a completely unacceptable user experience. You're replacing a working part of the game with some "shiny" obviously halfassed flat-UI design mockup.
Maybe "it works" in contrived development environment tests where there's exactly one anomaly in the system and you mark your "it works, ship it!" checkbox once you've successfully confirmed that the scanner still manages to detect anomalies and move on to confirming that the stargate jump animation hides all your windows and brackets every time you jump even if you're in the map view and can't see the stargate, good job, high fives all around, and I suppose the shiny in-space effect made for a nice fanfest presentation, but this whole revamp adds exactly nothing to the real workflow of your players, who don't log in to ogle the light effects and then log off again but are using the scanner the umpteenth time per day to find the next site to run.
I don't really share the "you're dumbing down the game and robbing me of my deserved advantage over those good-for-nothing can't-do-3d-geometry-in-my-head casuals" sentiment, but as it stands the trilateration minigame is completely pointless. If you require seven probes, launch seven probes at once, and instantly arrange them into the one good trilateration formation, then move all seven at once so that the overlap of all seven scan volumes covers the location of the target, the system might as well just require a single probe instead of shitting up the map with seven pretend-independent circles that mostly cover area I specifically don't give a **** about. Just get it over with and throw out all the crummy trilateration math, make it work with one probe and maybe give people who trained Astrometrics 5 a second probe so they can keep combatscanning on two celestials at once. But don't just give us this bullshit.
I, for one, shall sell all my spaceships and dedicate myself to 24/7 pro-gaming EVR oculus rift action if this system ships without a more fundamental revamp than has been promised so far. |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:36:00 -
[884] - Quote
Now I get a feeling, that like it happened with "UI", we will receive something that is known to be broken (for they don't have enough time to do it right now, "exploration expansion", yeah), instead of something working fine. And then all those broken parts will be fixed for about half-a-year. How nice.
EVE is a good game because it is challenging. Now you are going to take a big part of challenge from exploration. |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:41:00 -
[885] - Quote
Also while a constant annoyance when going on scanning binges yet only vaguely replaced to exploration, of course you couldn't be bothered to fix the completely unnecessary multi-second freezes from creating a bookmark while the People&Places window is up and has the bookmark folders expanded with non-trivial (read: not a dev account on the test server) amounts of bookmarks, having animations in the scan results window is clearly more important than being able to record the scan results without prohibitive delays. |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:06:00 -
[886] - Quote
After trying out the scanning changes I see that for the most part they are being received with about the amount of disdane that I expected.
Tell me CCP how is the new way the results for the scanner presented better than what we had previously?
- Personally I find them less easy on the eye to read with the new bold bigger font against that green.
- Each result now takes up more space meaning yet a bigger scan result box required to see the same amount of results.
- Where did the sort option go? I can no longer even sort my results by signal strength.
I can easily find more problems / dislikes with this new so called improved scanning system than just the few I have listed for you here. So once again please tell me what I am missing and what the improvements are.
On a positive note Elite Dangerous is out next year. . |
Isphirel
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:07:00 -
[887] - Quote
And what a ******* surprise, you ~streamlined~ away the time-remaining info for probes so now I get to write down when I launched probes my probes and make sure to check if it's been an hour since every so often! This sure is an interesting way of making the game more engaging and challenging! |
Ali Aras
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:41:00 -
[888] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote: Regarding removing options GÇô there has been some criticism that weGÇÖre removing some edge-case functionality in how some players probe scan. Basically what weGÇÖre doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if theyGÇÖre used to scanning differently. WeGÇÖve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But weGÇÖre not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version GÇô basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.
I'm looking forward to the dev blog.
The thing is, most players who do not already scan aren't going to see the options to scan differently. Previous to this update, many people who tried scanning but did not invest themselves in exploration / ask a friend were not aware of the hotkeys to move probes together and resize them together. In the current state, they won't be aware of the hotkeys to move probes separately or resize them individually-- and they won't have to, because there's the workable diamond shape already provided.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing! New players will have an easier time getting into scanning as-is, especially with the sensor overlay.
It's kind of trivial, but holding shift while performing fiddly probe adjustments *feels* more awkward than holding it for movement did. I always want to take my finger off the shift key when I tilt the map to see whatever dimension I wasn't looking at (I suspect because I'm viewing it as a different action -- adjust probe shape, adjust map, adjust probe shape, push button), and removing my finger from the key while I'm trying to readjust the probe itself makes the probe's arrow disappear, so I've lost my feedback on its placement until I depress the shift key again. While the functionality is still there, it *feels* more awkward.
If it's workable, it'd still be best to have a lock/unlock toggle on the probes themselves -- on the radial buttons or the selected menu or the scanning interface. That way, you can rearrange your formation with full feedback and it's more visible than the modifier keys. http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:00:00 -
[889] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Octoven wrote: Real life applications DO apply here, it isn't just a game that we are playing. There is a living and breathing company involved in its continued development, not to mention a thriving economy that can be just as competitive as the real world. yes, it is a virtual environment with human condition that makes it seem real. Thus real world application would also seem to apply in this manner as well.
As for your hint, indeed the mechanics of chess has not changed much in 500 years; HOWEVER, the presentation of it has. I am pretty sure we didnt have glass boards and pieces back that far or even recorded chess games. As technology progressed, so too did the visual representation of chess. Just as they also did not have computer AI opponents either. The point here is that although the mechanics remain the same, the visual representation has changed with an ever changing world. So too has EVE, thus the mechanics of scanning are the same...you still need probes, you still need to move said probes, and ect. However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point.
but you still cant move 7 pawns at the same time can you? CCP like any company makes mistakes, look at Incarna, they got their balls kicked, Ody looks at this time capable of delivering the same again unless they listen, throw out their preconceptions and develop the game instead of change it to reflect what they see other companies doing as they all rush for short term cash. If you care about CCP, you personally would want to keep its unique selling points and remember that the game has kudos for its steep learning curve, harshness of consequences, the meta game environment, the inventiveness of the players (which exposes the limitations of a small design team that always wants shiny) and most importantly the SANDBOX that is only limited by the players intellect, thats what keeps people subscribing and draws long term players in (better have 1 man for 5 years than 5 for 1, for long term CCP survival.
Your 7 pawn analgoy is not valid. In chess 500 years ago you can only move one pawn at a time, even today it is one pawn at a time. You CAN move 7 probes at a time in either Retribution or Odyssey...this hasnt changed, thus your analogy is invalid.
If a company had to consult each of its subscribers before developing began...NOTHING would be done. It is great that EVE has awesome sandbox qualities and unqiueness; however, when you have such a huge ass steep cliff of learning curve...what do you off subscribers to WANT them to learn?
What I am hearing is, "I had to learn a long time and invest lots of skill time and real time to devlop my skills and now new players can do that from day one, so im pissed." Not every player in every game has the same learning experience, I suppose you would also like to have the return of learning skills too?? After all THAT is a steep learning curve having to train a whole month before even advancing in the game. This is not appealing to new players, and with new players we get new things to shoot at.
Domanique Altares wrote: Not really.
When I have to start keeping pencil and paper notes to replace what was formerly a readily available, copy-pastable UI list in game, that's not enhancement, that's a step backwards.
A step backwards is your opinion.
To be honest if you took a new player and a vet and gave them both interfaces, the new player will choose the new way, why? Because the entire process is more streamlined, yes it needs a bit of work but to them it is the better option. They don't have to stare at a database of results. Now a vet...OF COURSE they will choose the older option why? Because they are used to the way the information is laid out and given. The functionality is still not there, but I would rather look at a Ui enhanced overlay then fiddle with an antiquated database look.
You all may as well get used to these types of UI changes or find another game because the UI is old and the scanning system and inventory is just a start. Im fairly certain this is an area where CCP will focus a lot of attention on the next couple years. Get over it and adapt like the rest of us. A company is not going to halt development of reworking UI just to appease some vets. There may be some alternatives to how they are choosing them, but it will change in time. I am fine with them adding column sliders and such, such tweaking will come as needed, but I doubt it will ever completely be reversed. Time for EVE to enter the second decade with a new and fresh look. Great work CCP, I look forward to the changes you have planned for sisi over the next few weeks. |
M'aak'han
C-7
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:10:00 -
[890] - Quote
I finally got some time to test this new exploration stuff. I haven't yet found an ex-radar/archaelogy site so couldn't test the minigame there, thus I will focus my feedback on probing.
Overall, I'm very disappointed with many of the new features and removal of functionality.
- New system overlay :
Good : 1. looks good as eye-candy, 2. it's functional in alerting when there a sig/anomaly in the system.
Bad : 1. unlinked to the probing system, as overlay doesn't update with resolution of signatures by probing them out. Needs harmonizing ASAP if you want newer players to not get confused by what will look like a bug to them. 2. Having to pan the camera everywhere to see where this damn icon might be is a pain (though that's not really the goal of the overlay, is it?) 3. The icons are way too large, and prevent manual aligning to the direction they are at. Really needs fixing.
- Probes :
Launching several probes at once is convenient for the prober, but as stated by someone else, very bad as the time needed to launch several probes was the only window to catch a stealther. Now, this window is reduced to almost none. I would be in favour of keeping the automatic launch of several probes with one click, but still launching them one after another with the launcher cycling. Best of both worlds IMO.
Being able to move probes' boxes without the labels interfering in the system map is so coool, thanks a thousand times for that. It has been a major pain, glad to see it gone.
Moving probes in a formation without resizing their scanning radius requires having shift+alt pressed. Very. Bad. Maybe shift could be replaced with a toggle key instead, to switch between formation/individual probes boxes?
Spread formation has significant gaps in it. Useless as is. I got it you acknowledged this and will change it. Besides, spread formation defaulting at 16 AU makes the feature somewhat strange. Allow it to set max probe range, as it can't be used to pinpoint anything, I don't see any harm in doing so (especially as DSP are removed, at least having combats at 64 AU from the go would compensate)
Pinpoint formation is ok, nothing much to say about it.
Need customizable formations, as the two you provide are not always adapted. At least, a third option should be there at Odyssey release : all probes stacked (like how it is today), because breaking the pre-made formations to do something different is REALLY difficult.
We need the 8th probe back!!! As well as only one! But I got it you said this was coming back, so fine.
Removal of DSP. I'm disappointed, but we'll adapt. I'm concerned about the legacy deep safe spots though, as probing the outer edges of a large system is not easy to execute properly with small radius probes.
Automatic recall of probes at session change. This one aggravates me particularly. What the hell is this about? I see you thinking it will ease the process for many users, but that's pushing it too far. - I want to leave my probes in the position I left them in a system ! Especially useful in a constellation/W-system defence scenario. Or I want to be able to leave them and have my prey drop it's guard by thinking they have been forgotten there. This automatic recall goes against tactical uses of probes. - And if you where thinking about the poor guy who would get stranded in a WH by forgetting his probes, there is already a warning pop-up window stating so each time you use a wormhole, so there's really no need to have them come back in cargo. Remove this feature, please !!
- Probing window (system scanner) :
As it is, it's esthaetically better, but we're unable to sort results by anything other than signal strength. Sorting results must make it in at release, or the release of the new system should be postponed, because there's no way I'm going to edit a new filter everytime I chase something different.
When selecting multiple probes in the list, and say I want to deactivate them, I now have to right-click or use the drop-down menu on the side instead of the functional tick box we have now. That's more mouse actions than currently required, so I don't like it. Worse still, when doing so, the highlighting of the probes is lost after the action is performed. This is very bad, because I want to manage two groups of probes sometimes, and this requires onlining and offlining half of them all the time. It only required 1 click of a box until now for every off/onlining. I want this kept in the new system.
Overall, I think this system is not well ironed out yet, and it's implementation should be postponed to take the large amount of feedback you got into account.
We won't hold a grudge if you delay the release of the new system, promised !!
|
|
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:34:00 -
[891] - Quote
check probe scan time, new scaning modules and things decreasing scaning time, i have big confiusion, i have 98,8% bonus to scan time with new modules, skils, implants and stacking penelty on modules, and it still take suspisus long time to scan, ofcourse i not including in this probe warping time
scan time; astro 5 [25%] + astro acquisition 3 [15%] + implant [10%] + first module [20%] + secend module [20 x 0,87 = 17,4%] + 3rd mod [ 20 x 0.57 = 11,4] = 98,8% x 10 sec = ? check results at sisi with timer, or i make someting wrong here?
return scan progres bar, is nice to see when something is doing when you wait for scan results, you have place for it betwen scan formation buttons and map buton
make radial menu for scaner on right clic and on left click scaner, or something like that, i wish to get one clic to get scaner, seven probes at one click is one step forward this is nice, but two clic to scaner is one backward, and i not like this
scaner overley show basae signal strength, dsp scan method with dsp also shows base signal strength at 256 au scan, but dsp shows this at the same pleace where you later scan sites and you have this info all the time when you scaning, in system scaner window
[1:0 for dsp],
to chceck results from sensor overlay you must spin you ship, dsp you not have this problem becouse you have nice list in system scaner window
[2:0 for dsp]
if you wish check basae signal strength with scaner overley during probe scaning when you need, you must close solar system map, and start spining your ship to find icons with site info, with dps you not have this problem, becouse you have this info in the same place where you have scaning info later, and you have this info all the time you scaning if probes don't overlap dsp, or you can make one screen shoot, for scaner overley firt way is imposible and secend with screen shoot make it more dificult becouse you need a lot of screen shoot.
[3:0 for dsp]
dsp use system scan filter that mean, you can choose intresting you sites from list. and you get only info for this type of sites you are intrestes, sensor overlay not show ships and structures, and is very needed in pvp, recon, and scouting, combat and core probs have smaller range so your chanse for cach somone for pvp is smaller
[4:0 for dps]
info from dsp can be refreshed by making secend scan, and you can check if new sites spawn, or new hostiles comes to system, to do that with sensor overlay you need to dock and undoc or jump from system and jamp back, wich is ridiculus
[5:0 for dps]
sensor overlay have nice new graphic animation, and you have only one type of probe in inventory, that make little more easy to handle with inventory
[5:1 for dps]
so then, fix requests; scaner overley if is active, should show info about sites around in space, in system scaner window, and maby at solar system map
scaner overley, should use system scaner filter that is selected for probes in this time, something like overview settings for d scan, and dsp use now
scaner overley should have refresh option, this can be analyze buton, so you refreshing scaner overley when you making system
scan wich is the same, and you automaticly refreshing scaner overley when you making probe scan. 7 probes and dsp works exactly in this way now.
scan probes always should be lunched with max range
scaner overley should have radius range at least of 1024 au or biger, becouse some systems are biger, one dps have 256au and you can luch 8 of them, so you can cover almost any system but even with them, are some sytems where you must move them becouse system is to big, so if you give to small scaner overley range wich work like dscan range, you get that there will be some system with blind spots for scaner overley, but dsp not have this problem becouse you can move them. so scaner overley must be big or infinite for this system.
scaner overley, if is active with out probles in space, should show at site info basae signal strength of site. if lunched with probes, and probe range overlap or you start scaning site, then at site info you should be two nambers with
signal strengf; one still from scaner overley, you can do this now with dsp screenshot or if you have god memory and secend number additionaly to signal strength, modifaied by probes, in system scaner window, so there should be two info abaut signal strength in site info "basae signal strength"and second modified by probes, becouse now you can have 8 probes, one set of 7 core/combat and 1 dsp, nice if you impreve this.
now to change scan probe range you need to grab and drag blue spahre (not like this method i more prefer this secend) or select probes righ click at selected probes and you get first menu with 4 options; recover probe, destroy probe, deactivate probe, scan range. when you go scan range option you get all ranges option to chose, my offer is to delate secend menu, delete in first menu scan range option, and put in first menu all ranges form secend menu so you have all in first menu
during changing rage of scan probes, by dragging blue sphere , digits of probe range in probe window info should change also, becouse zooming in and out sometimes is confusing, and then you change/drag range at intuition, and this not work very well
secend issue is selecting probes in on board scaner window, now to selecet one probe you need to one left click at it, to select all you need click one from top or form boton and with shift key left click to top or botom probe, my request here is to make that to select all probes by only two left clicks with shift at any proble in probe info window; you click two times left with shilf at any probe and you get all probes selected. or only with two left clicks, and center probe comand move to two left click with shift. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:34:00 -
[892] - Quote
now when you press analyze when you scaning all selected probes in system scaner window going to be deselect so, now if i
wish to change the range by selecting probes not dragging blue sphere i need to again selec them all, after every scan, they
should be selected after scan.
is nice you wish make scaning and exploration more common and easy by giving ppl faster acces to dsp scaning method by
removing deep space probe and give sensor overlay, but sensor overlay must work like dsp, if it not can, back dsp probes.
but still there are ppl wich say that ds probses and 8 probes set is better and maby they have rigth i don't know, maby give as dsp and scaner overley, and then everyone can chose wich method he like more. |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:43:00 -
[893] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything).
A good sentiment in my opinion - but at the same time you make this information (even easier readable as base signature strengths without any modifiers) available in the new 'onboard scanner'. Nevermind that you don't need Deep Space Probes to do that whole band filtering. I think a little randomization in sig strengths would have beem better.
You also seem to want probing done easier for newer characters (all the modules that up your probing stength). This is IMO totally how to not do it - because it means that seasoned explorers will be even faster scanning down stuff. And i am also not sure if a kinda newbish character should be able to scan down some of the currently hardest to scan sites.
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Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:53:00 -
[894] - Quote
aside from a few fanboys like Octoven (who is probably a ccp dev posting undercover) i see that most replies are against these changes.
i reiterate: all CCP needed to do was allow user defined launch patterns. THAT IS IT. are you even reading this thread CCP?
leave your overlay in as a novelty item for new players, but do not force it upon us.
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1065
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:20:00 -
[895] - Quote
Octoven wrote:blablablathischangewillbenefitnewplayersblablabla the kind of new player who is discouraged by a complicated scan result will not last in EVE anyway. there is a million other MMOs out there that are light years ahead of EVE in almost all aspects except the ones that this change is trying to break: the steep learning curve, the appeal of the unknown and freedom to do what YOU think is right.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
346
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:41:00 -
[896] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Combat ladar sites are now under gas sites or?
And do the personalized formations allow for fewer probes to be launched? You must lauch 7 probes, and have 7 probes in the launch to be able to launch probes. But you can recall select probes if you wish. Why are you taking all the finesse out of probing? Are you telling me that you don't see what this does to combat probing ships that many times require different probing tactics based on target? It's really really annoying thing. single probe launch can be used to check ships/signature from whole systems without having to bloat dscan because of it and you save a lot of time not reloading after every time you want to check for something.
One man's finesse is another man's annoying mouse slamming pin-point moving scream fest of rage... I say good riddence, and hail the new system!!!... I personally like it very much so far from what I see on SISI... Look at all the Macks in local...impressive...very impressive...I see you have fashioned a new exhumer...much like you father's...your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
347
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:47:00 -
[897] - Quote
Why no T2 Core and Combat Probes?
and Why are the rigs for CPU, and + to Scanning so damned hard to fit... I can fit 2x Grave, but nothing else... waste of one rig slot.. ok, so go to one Grav and then try to put on two CPU rigs... *FAIL*... drat... ok um... hacking rig... and oh wait... nope... ok... so I have this ship, and I want to rig it... and the rig calabrations for scanning rigs and others that I might use can't fit... can we have a look see at this?
I like the modules - mids, and that is nice, but yes wouldn't a script actually be better? then if you want all three - three modules and three scripts, or if you want to simply change them out for a speciific you can still say... put that mid slot analyzer or hacker on your scanning frigate?...
I felt that once I fit out a T1 scanning ship to be all it could be - it could scan very well, but couldn't probably do the site, without a refit or a re-ship... just due to the fitting of modules for it, and not even trying to combat or tank it... just trying to load it up with the things for doing the site... but maybe I am just doing it wrong, I will give it some more tries tonight on SISI and see if what I am saying makes any sense to me after that.
But I LIKE THE CHANGES SO FAR +1 Look at all the Macks in local...impressive...very impressive...I see you have fashioned a new exhumer...much like you father's...your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:52:00 -
[898] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Octoven wrote:blablablathischangewillbenefitnewplayersblablabla the kind of new player who is discouraged by a complicated scan result will not last in EVE anyway. there is a million other MMOs out there that are light years ahead of EVE in almost all aspects except the ones that this change is trying to break: the steep learning curve, the appeal of the unknown and freedom to do what YOU think is right.
When you buy a new car, you dont sit there and read the manual for like 3 hours before trying it do you? IMO, if a player needs to use third party websites or even look at CCP's tutorial for attempting to explain such a complex feature for such a basic part of the game...well that feature needs looking at. The scanning system works fine for you the way it is, so in essence everybody's whining and complaining is because you have spent time in game trying to get an edge over another player and suddenly you have a smaller gap between you.
Just like when CCP added in the current scanning system and it pissed off players back then as well. You will all just get over it once you get used to it. |
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:05:00 -
[899] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Rammix wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. -- THIS. You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back. BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more. p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons. THIS ten times over. even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished. Also this feature is used deliberately by wormholers who want to quickly jump through a hole to check where it leads, and then come back and reconnect to continue scanning, without having to re-lay their probes back out into their preferred formation. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:29:00 -
[900] - Quote
incrase max range of combat probes to 96 au core probes to 224 au |
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Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
213
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:51:00 -
[901] - Quote
Not sur if this has changed or not but I would like to have the probes left behind as the are great for dirtying up a bubble camp for cloakers and what is going to happen to the probe market?
Or at lest give me a safety to turn off Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Lucas Irvam
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:53:00 -
[902] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Octoven wrote:blablablathischangewillbenefitnewplayersblablabla the kind of new player who is discouraged by a complicated scan result will not last in EVE anyway. there is a million other MMOs out there that are light years ahead of EVE in almost all aspects except the ones that this change is trying to break: the steep learning curve, the appeal of the unknown and freedom to do what YOU think is right.
Pretty much exactly this.
What I love most about the game, usually described as the 'steep learning curve' that gets referenced at every turn, is the sheer breadth of knowledge and applications of that knowledge that CCP opens up to players. Combine the depth and nuances of some of these game mechanics with a sandbox environment/community, and wow. CCP sets the framework, but it's in the deep cracks and corners of that framework that players push the limits of applying those game mechanics. It's emergent gameplay, and it's what Eve does better than any other MMO out there.
Octoven wrote:IMO, if a player needs to use third party websites or even look at CCP's tutorial for attempting to explain such a complex feature for such a basic part of the game...well that feature needs looking at. The scanning system works fine for you the way it is, so in essence everybody's whining and complaining is because you have spent time in game trying to get an edge over another player and suddenly you have a smaller gap between you.
I couldn't disagree with this more. It seems almost the exact opposite of the philosophy that people fall in love with if they try Eve for the first time and it gets under their skin. There are MMO's out there in which you don't really have to pay that much attention to the tutorial and you'll be just fine, more or less. Eve is not one of them.
They can make the profession more inviting to new players (if that's even the point of all this - I don't really know) without lowering the skill cap so drastically.
At this point the ball is really in CCP's court, and we'll have to see what they do with it. If I had the time or the know-how, I'd go back through and quote roughly 27 posts in this thread. DSP removal (and the emergent and innovative PvP/PvE uses thereof), T1 mods replacing months-worth of skilling, probe formations, combat scans that take all of 3 seconds, WH implications, the changes rolling out with no CSM input, the no-probes-left-behind magic, and so on. This is one of those rare cases in which it's not overreaction, and it's not resistance to change - it's a logical reaction from a segment of the community that regularly uses features of the system that CCP is getting ready to destroy without having given any good reason for doing so. |
Space Wanderer
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:05:00 -
[903] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote: scan time; astro 5 [25%] + astro acquisition 3 [15%] + implant [10%] + first module [20%] + secend module [20 x 0,87 = 17,4%] + 3rd mod [ 20 x 0.57 = 11,4] = 98,8% x 10 sec = ? check results at sisi with timer, or i make someting wrong here?
You are doing it very wrong, I am afraid, sorry.
First of all, in EVE almost every bonus is multiplicative so you don't calculate it like base*(bonus+bonus+bonus) but like base*bonus*bonus*bonus. The second problemis that in this case the bonus is decrementative in nature, so you do not calculate it like base*bonus but like base*(1-bonus). Finally, you are factoring in the stacking penalty which in the current version of SISI is not working for acqusition modules.
So the correct formula for the current sisi build is: 10 sec * 0.75 (astro) * 0.85 (astro acq) * 0.9 (implant) * 0.6 (module. the T2 is 40%) * 0.6 * 0.6 (second and third module with bugged stacking penalty). You do the math. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:38:00 -
[904] - Quote
hihi kk thnx, but this not chage much at module is adnotation it take penalty from stacking penalty so i taking this for calculating so it is below 1 sec or 3 sec, but thats way or another scan take much more at sisi now then should |
Space Wanderer
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:19:00 -
[905] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote:hihi kk thnx, but this not chage much at module is adnotation it take penalty from stacking penalty so i taking this for calculating so it is below 1 sec or 3 sec, but thats way or another scan take much more at sisi now then should
I am not sure I understand what you mean exactly. I just went on SISI, fitted a helios with enough modules to get a 2.3 seconds scan time, tried to scan (with core probes) and the scan took very little time. Then I put offline all the modules and ran another scan, which took MUCH longer. So, the reduction in scan time seems to be working for me. PErhaps I should use a timer to be sure that the first scan took less than 3 seconds, but I haven't one with me. |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:40:00 -
[906] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote: The thing is, most players who do not already scan aren't going to see the options to scan differently. Previous to this update, many people who tried scanning but did not invest themselves in exploration / ask a friend were not aware of the hotkeys to move probes together and resize them together. In the current state, they won't be aware of the hotkeys to move probes separately or resize them individually-- and they won't have to, because there's the workable diamond shape already provided.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing! New players will have an easier time getting into scanning as-is, especially with the sensor overlay.
I always used to think EVE is a game for those having brains to find out details about what they do, such as shortcuts. And I liked it for that. Now you are telling us "let it be for dummies". Maybe we are playing the wrong game?
And yeah, like it was said, you force us to use YOUR formations, if probes are moved to them by default. |
Mhax Arthie
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:55:00 -
[907] - Quote
Scanning tutorial was (and still is) a nightmare for any newbie. I loved the exploration part of EVE but playing around with those probes was always a pita. The new changes are a blast, I absolutely love how the scanning works and more than everything the new scaning UI that finally give a modern touch to the oldish UI we have now. Big thanks to every single one involved into this upcoming expansion, awesome job.
One small request that I would have is to change a bit the colors on the scan results.. white bold font on light green background is not really reading friendly, maybe a darker green or blue would be more appropriate. Thanks! |
Qual
Cornexant Research Sleeping Dragons
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:00:00 -
[908] - Quote
Funny story.
When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing... Second generation DSP was condidered game breaking making exploration too easy for casual players, but CCP insisted on having them as they fixed an earlier issue: Noone could tell if a system actually had anything to scan in it, this WAS a problem as signatures where only shown after a scan on a succesfull random check against signature strength. So sigs with low strengths would ususally not even show up in results. DSP's first generation was just a probe (The Multispectral probe) that told you if any sigs of a given type was in the system. The new one that people explorers found game breaking was the current one that actually showed you every sigle signature in its range. The second change that made it easy mode was that probes where no longer signal type and size specific. Yeah, you should use Ladar probes to scan gas sites, Radar probes for Hacking sites, etc.. Each scan range had its own probe type. So you had to load a gazillion different probes to succesfully scan anything (4 AU Ladar Scan Probe etc. Lol.). And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.
I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either. Where CCP right though? Yeah. Your guys love for the current system shows that. Despite the hate from the exploration pro's at the time the changes where actually for the greater good. So, give them a chance.
As an old timer (10 years on TQ this very day) I find it very hilarious that many of the same arguments are being used against this new version.
Is this new system perfect?
No.
Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?
No. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1072
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:21:00 -
[909] - Quote
Qual wrote:Funny story.
When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing... Second generation DSP was condidered game breaking making exploration too easy for casual players, but CCP insisted on having them as they fixed an earlier issue: Noone could tell if a system actually had anything to scan in it, this WAS a problem as signatures where only shown after a scan on a succesfull random check against signature strength. So sigs with low strengths would ususally not even show up in results. DSP's first generation was just a probe (The Multispectral probe) that told you if any sigs of a given type was in the system. The new one that people explorers found game breaking was the current one that actually showed you every sigle signature in its range. The second change that made it easy mode was that probes where no longer signal type and size specific. Yeah, you should use Ladar probes to scan gas sites, Radar probes for Hacking sites, etc.. Each scan range had its own probe type. So you had to load a gazillion different probes to succesfully scan anything (4 AU Ladar Scan Probe etc. Lol.). And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.
I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either. Where CCP right though? Yeah. Your guys love for the current system shows that. Despite the hate from the exploration pro's at the time the changes where actually for the greater good. So, give them a chance.
As an old timer (10 years on TQ this very day) I find it very hilarious that many of the same arguments are being used against this new version.
Is this new system perfect?
No.
Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?
No.
1. nobody 'loves' the current system. it's like the last US election: bad vs. unacceptable. 2. i know at least one person who would still prefer the 'old old' over the 'new old' system if the UI were tweaked a bit. 3. nobody said anything about the end of the world. we're eve players; we'll adapt. but the way it is now, it is still mostly garbage and the parts that are 'salvageable' are mostly NYI.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Qual
Cornexant Research Sleeping Dragons
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:13:00 -
[910] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:
1. nobody 'loves' the current system. it's like the last US election: bad vs. unacceptable. 2. i know at least one person who would still prefer the 'old old' over the 'new old' system if the UI were tweaked a bit. 3. nobody said anything about the end of the world. we're eve players; we'll adapt. but the way it is now, it is still mostly garbage and the parts that are 'salvageable' are mostly NYI.
1. That very much an oppinion. Oppinion =/= fact. Personally i happen to like it, and few other I know do as well. 2. Old old had no real UI besides a result list. While I can remeber having fun with it, waiting 5-10 minutes pr. scan depending on skills got a bit old. Using half an hour to an hour to get one result was not uncommon. If he seriously liked that, well, I am glad he did not get to keep it. 3. Ok, I over did it. But people are in serious whine mode. Again. |
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Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:12:00 -
[911] - Quote
since it is starting to look like we will have excess bonuses to our scan strength, how about lettings us scan down those wrecks ?? |
Space Wanderer
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:19:00 -
[912] - Quote
Qual wrote:Funny story.
When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing...
Nice story. Now try to tell a true one.
I spent all my time during apochrypha beta helping debugging the system. Before that I have been using the old probing system since revelations, and while the new system had (and still have) some issues, I had no doubt from the start that the new system was better. The same could be said for other people in the forum, and most importantly, they were seasoned explorers, with a deep understanding of the old system, who spent lot of time testing and understanding the new system. Most of them expressed reservations (I did myself) but I don't remember any of them stating that the new system was a failure. I certainly didn't.
Qual wrote:And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.
This I remember. Lots of people were shouting left and right that the new scanning system was too difficult, even BEFORE deviation was inserted into the system, and part of them were "explorers". In the meanwhile however those who actually spent time not simply fiddling with the system, but trying to understand it were saying the opposite.
Qual wrote:I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either.
Ah, now I see. You weren't happy, so every explorer wasn't, right? Well, I was reasonably happy with the new system, although I had as a reservation that it was too easy (and of course I still have them). And so many other explorers. As soon as I have some time I'll find a link to the old apochrypha thread and post it here, so we can check things without relying on memory.
Qual wrote:Where CCP right though?
Indeed they were. On the other hand the scanning thread about apochrypha test center has nothing to do with this one. Most of it was spent on analyzing the new system. Do we have a "new system" here? Basically we don't. They have removed some functionalities, reimplemented a little part of them as an eyecandy interface which is not even integrated properly with the rest scanning interface, and added half of some long-asked-for interface feature in the most themeparkish possible way.
The underlying scanning system hasn't changed a single iota. I tested the scan strength formula and it's always the same. The unprobability cap is also the same. They just changed some limit conditions (interface and removed one type of probe) but the system stays the same.
The simple fact that you call it a "new system" is undermining most of your argument.
Qual wrote:Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?
No.
Same could be said for Incarna... Now mind you, I agree that some of the things that they are putting inside are good. The discovery scanner, with proper work and balance has the potential to become the new intel tool that should allow to remove local. The biased formations could become a great feature if some customizable formations were allowed. The problem is, we have been sold this as an "exploration themed" expansion. How long will be before CCP actually works on those features before they become an asset to the scanning system? I don't see a commitment on exploration beyond the range of this expansion, and that worries me so much.
There is too much half-assed product in this game already. |
Porucznik Borewicz
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:37:00 -
[913] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:... The discovery scanner, with proper work and balance has the potential to become the new intel tool that should allow to remove local. ... Ohhhhh the travel times when this "feature" actually comes around. Just... can't... wait... |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:47:00 -
[914] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:Octoven wrote: Real life applications DO apply here, it isn't just a game that we are playing. There is a living and breathing company involved in its continued development, not to mention a thriving economy that can be just as competitive as the real world. yes, it is a virtual environment with human condition that makes it seem real. Thus real world application would also seem to apply in this manner as well.
As for your hint, indeed the mechanics of chess has not changed much in 500 years; HOWEVER, the presentation of it has. I am pretty sure we didnt have glass boards and pieces back that far or even recorded chess games. As technology progressed, so too did the visual representation of chess. Just as they also did not have computer AI opponents either. The point here is that although the mechanics remain the same, the visual representation has changed with an ever changing world. So too has EVE, thus the mechanics of scanning are the same...you still need probes, you still need to move said probes, and ect. However, the visual presentation/representation of that mechanic has been enhanced in the form of UI. Thus your chess scenario is actually proving my point.
but you still cant move 7 pawns at the same time can you? CCP like any company makes mistakes, look at Incarna, they got their balls kicked, Ody looks at this time capable of delivering the same again unless they listen, throw out their preconceptions and develop the game instead of change it to reflect what they see other companies doing as they all rush for short term cash. If you care about CCP, you personally would want to keep its unique selling points and remember that the game has kudos for its steep learning curve, harshness of consequences, the meta game environment, the inventiveness of the players (which exposes the limitations of a small design team that always wants shiny) and most importantly the SANDBOX that is only limited by the players intellect, thats what keeps people subscribing and draws long term players in (better have 1 man for 5 years than 5 for 1, for long term CCP survival. Your 7 pawn analgoy is not valid. In chess 500 years ago you can only move one pawn at a time, even today it is one pawn at a time. You CAN move 7 probes at a time in either Retribution or Odyssey...this hasnt changed, thus your analogy is invalid. If a company had to consult each of its subscribers before developing began...NOTHING would be done. It is great that EVE has awesome sandbox qualities and uniqueness; however, when you have such a huge ass steep cliff of learning curve...what do you off subscribers to WANT them to learn? What I am hearing is, "I had to learn a long time and invest lots of skill time and real time to devlop my skills and now new players can do that from day one, so im pissed." Not every player in every game has the same learning experience, I suppose you would also like to have the return of learning skills too?? After all THAT is a steep learning curve having to train a whole month before even advancing in the game. This is not appealing to new players, and with new players we get new things to shoot at.
Ok i know you can, BUT it is undocumented, nowhere in the interface or Esc menu does it tell you about it, so how do rookies find the option, they research and if they research they would understand all the nice things you can already do and will soon lose to some extent.
Did i say they should consult the player base, NO I DID NOT, i-¦m saying they (aka CCP) should understand what makes EvE unique, what keeps people paying every month for years, you are being deliberately obtuse and misunderstanding what i-¦m saying as you don-¦t want to accept the essential value of it, people come to eve not because its follow this path, do this and that follow the yellow brick road to success and riches but because it is an open sandbox and presents (what it offers in your choice words) the player with a game that provides an intellectual challenge to those who rise to it, yeah some people just run level 4-¦s but the sandbox to a degree needs some at all levels and depths of activity, after all our activity provides food to someone else activity which in turn provides food for others.
BB is older than this, when i realised how deep the game could go i biomassed her so i could keep the name and kill the history and restarted her, then I got into exploration when Trinity was still current, by accident at a planet by hitting onboard scanner and went, umm nice so i went and developed all required skills over time to V as i saw the value without it being stuffed down my throat like a new born chick in the nest, also i-¦m being butt hurt by the decreased multiplier, but i-¦m not complaining about that am i!.
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:06:00 -
[915] - Quote
Qual wrote:Funny story.
When the current system was implemented every explorer wanted them to undo that as well as it "dumbed down" probing... Second generation DSP was condidered game breaking making exploration too easy for casual players, but CCP insisted on having them as they fixed an earlier issue: Noone could tell if a system actually had anything to scan in it, this WAS a problem as signatures where only shown after a scan on a succesfull random check against signature strength. So sigs with low strengths would ususally not even show up in results. DSP's first generation was just a probe (The Multispectral probe) that told you if any sigs of a given type was in the system. The new one that people explorers found game breaking was the current one that actually showed you every sigle signature in its range. The second change that made it easy mode was that probes where no longer signal type and size specific. Yeah, you should use Ladar probes to scan gas sites, Radar probes for Hacking sites, etc.. Each scan range had its own probe type. So you had to load a gazillion different probes to succesfully scan anything (4 AU Ladar Scan Probe etc. Lol.). And dont even get me started on the hate on the visual triagulation system where you had to micromanage probes... Oh, the flame hate that generated.
I wasn't to happy about the changes back then either. Where CCP right though? Yeah. Your guys love for the current system shows that. Despite the hate from the exploration pro's at the time the changes where actually for the greater good. So, give them a chance.
As an old timer (10 years on TQ this very day) I find it very hilarious that many of the same arguments are being used against this new version.
Is this new system perfect?
No.
Is it "the end of the world" "unsalvageble garbage"?
No. The old old system was very cumbersome, the DSP-¦s, Combats (my favs) and Core probes solved that issue, the additional see all low level DED-¦s to on-board scanner from anywhere took out lots of planet warping to find them and opened it up to the masses (and a few idiots these days in Tengus). It was an upgrade an improvement an opening out to the masses to an existing mechanic/interface, now as on Sisi an totally unworkable system overlaided on the old mechanics with NO integration between the old and new interfaces, the oversized brackets that make the planetary plane look like a band of gaudy shiny, shiny.
This overhaul is a break, not only with the existing system but with the aesthetics of EvE unlike the previous, this one forces it down your throat, after a few weeks of oversized gaudy shiny shiny every time you enter a system, you will be screaming to get a way to turn it off before your brains collapses to form the original eve gate. |
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:45:00 -
[916] - Quote
Chatter aside, I'm not sure if anyone has experienced it but:
Show All filter does not refresh correctly when scan results are altered (cycle finishes and new sigs are detected, ignore result is used)
Custom filters work properly, a switch between custom filter and show all prompts a one-time refresh. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet? |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1458
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:26:00 -
[917] - Quote
Trii Seo wrote:Chatter aside, I'm not sure if anyone has experienced it but:
Show All filter does not refresh correctly when scan results are altered (cycle finishes and new sigs are detected, ignore result is used)
Custom filters work properly, a switch between custom filter and show all prompts a one-time refresh.
Same here, if you start off with Show All, you have to switch to something else to get anything. Switching to Show All, it still doesn't show everything. I'm in a system with 4 anoms and 2 sigs, and it doesn't show the anoms after switching to sigs and back to Show All.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
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CCP Paradox
848
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:28:00 -
[918] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Trii Seo wrote:Chatter aside, I'm not sure if anyone has experienced it but:
Show All filter does not refresh correctly when scan results are altered (cycle finishes and new sigs are detected, ignore result is used)
Custom filters work properly, a switch between custom filter and show all prompts a one-time refresh. Same here, if you start off with Show All, you have to switch to something else to get anything. Switching to Show All, it still doesn't show everything. I'm in a system with 4 anoms and 2 sigs, and it doesn't show the anoms after switching to sigs and back to Show All.
That's a bug that will be fixed in the next patch. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:39:00 -
[919] - Quote
Awesome.
The data minigame is shaping up rather nicely, big improvement from its previous iteration - looking forward to the finished version.
Also, a good feature would be an ability to default your probe formation. When they're launched they go into spread - how about a "set as default" right click on the spread/pinpoint buttons and the ability to make them launch into pinpoint?
(Unless such feature already exists and I'm blind.) Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1017
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:41:00 -
[920] - Quote
ok, so the only signal strength that I was unable to scan down was a 1% site. Again my ship was a navitas with a T1 probe launcher and t1 scanner probes, no rigs, no implants, and Astrometrics 4. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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Capqu
Love Squad
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:00:00 -
[921] - Quote
So I got some time to check out probing on Sisi today, in particular combat probing for an FC (bombers or otherwise).
This current iteration has some major issues, I don't know if it's near final or anything but these are the unworkable elements as far as I am concerned:
Image to help explain: http://i.imgur.com/IN9eLIk.jpg
- Cannot warp to things on grid greater than 150 KM away (100% where the new "warp to" button should be, right clicking result does not give warp options.)
- Distances under 0.01 AU don't convert to KM. No idea where I'm about to warp my fleet other than "one of the ships of this type on grid". Note that I'm sorting by distance and both Erebus results are above the Rattlesnake, then check overview.
- Can't sort results by ship class.
- Can't sort results by ship type.
- Names are centered strangely. Left-align of the overview works much better.
- Can't resize "columns"? See: "rpion Navy Issue" in image.
- White on bright green is not the most readable thing in the world.
All these issues are absolutely game breaking for combat probing at an FC level, except the last one . http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:32:00 -
[922] - Quote
GÖ½GÖ¬GÖ½ I got a password on my TS3 an I ain't afraid to show it GÖ½GÖ¬GÖ½
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Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:34:00 -
[923] - Quote
The new build still doesn't have short range ship distances listed, as my corp director Capqu just posted. Also a multitude of other problems, like having to bookmark ships on grid before you warp to them.
Apparently we're not getting the message across regarding combat probing, so I drew a picture to show you exactly what we're talking about and why it's absolutely the wrong idea to remove close range probe distances.
http://i.imgur.com/SfBhdl7.gif Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
253
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:55:00 -
[924] - Quote
Removal of DSP is Horrible. DSP coudl detect ships. There are still very needed. This is a dumb chance clearly made without thinking on PVP scenarios. Peopel do not scan only to find anomalies! |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:58:00 -
[925] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Removal of DSP is Horrible. DSP coudl detect ships. There are still very needed. This is a dumb chance clearly made without thinking on PVP scenarios. Peopel do not scan only to find anomalies!
You do know that Combat Scanner Probes still exist and are capable of detecting ships and structures as well? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
253
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:59:00 -
[926] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Removal of DSP is Horrible. DSP coudl detect ships. There are still very needed. This is a dumb chance clearly made without thinking on PVP scenarios. Peopel do not scan only to find anomalies! You do know that Combat Scanner Probes still exist and are capable of detecting ships and structures as well?
You know that they require a laucnher that is too CPU intensive to fit in most of the ships? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:01:00 -
[927] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Removal of DSP is Horrible. DSP coudl detect ships. There are still very needed. This is a dumb chance clearly made without thinking on PVP scenarios. Peopel do not scan only to find anomalies! You do know that Combat Scanner Probes still exist and are capable of detecting ships and structures as well? You know that they require a laucnher that is too CPU intensive to fit in most of the ships? I am sorry to bring this to your attention but the DSP requires the same launcher as combat probes. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
870
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:10:00 -
[928] - Quote
Someone please listen to the pizza dude We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:26:00 -
[929] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Removal of DSP is Horrible. DSP coudl detect ships. There are still very needed. This is a dumb chance clearly made without thinking on PVP scenarios. Peopel do not scan only to find anomalies! You do know that Combat Scanner Probes still exist and are capable of detecting ships and structures as well? You know that they require a laucnher that is too CPU intensive to fit in most of the ships?
I'm sorry, what? Do you even know what you are talking about? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Drunk Action xXx420xXx
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:26:00 -
[930] - Quote
Capqu wrote:So I got some time to check out probing on Sisi today, in particular combat probing for an FC (bombers or otherwise). This current iteration has some major issues, I don't know if it's near final or anything but these are the unworkable elements as far as I am concerned: Image to help explain: http://i.imgur.com/IN9eLIk.jpg
- Cannot warp to things on grid greater than 150 KM away (100% where the new "warp to" button should be, right clicking result does not give warp options.)
- Distances under 0.01 AU don't convert to KM. No idea where I'm about to warp my fleet other than "one of the ships of this type on grid". Note that I'm sorting by distance and both Erebus results are above the Rattlesnake, then check overview.
- Can't sort results by ship class.
- Can't sort results by ship type.
- Names are centered strangely. Left-align of the overview works much better.
- Can't resize "columns"? See: "rpion Navy Issue" in image.
- White on bright green is not the most readable thing in the world.
All these issues are absolutely game breaking for combat probing at an FC level, except the last one .
|
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1019
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:38:00 -
[931] - Quote
Don't forget to include in the features for the test server where you made scanning ships obsolete. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:40:00 -
[932] - Quote
Junko Sideswipe wrote:The new build still doesn't have short range ship distances listed, as my corp director Capqu just posted. Also a multitude of other problems, like having to bookmark ships on grid before you warp to them. Apparently we're not getting the message across regarding combat probing, so I drew a picture to show you exactly what we're talking about and why it's absolutely the wrong idea to remove close range probe distances. http://i.imgur.com/SfBhdl7.gif
Jesus fuk christ, I just realized they broke this.
What the fuk CCP. Way to nerf small gang pvp AGAIN. May as well rename "Combat Probes" into "Carebear Gank Only Probes" |
zar dada
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:41:00 -
[933] - Quote
Did someone mention we can't copy and paste the scanner results anymore?
This is very very bad, mmh'kay. |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:44:00 -
[934] - Quote
zar dada wrote:Did someone mention we can't copy and paste the scanner results anymore?
This is very very bad, mmh'kay.
Basically CCP is failing to realize players have been doing far more with probes and the scanners than their "design".
Scanner results are used to parse data for tools and record keeping. Sig strengths on a first pass are used to quickly pick out the sigs of interest, nobody wants to probe 60+ sigs. Apparently CCP is full of wormhole carebears who do. Nobody wants large colorful rows that take 5 times as long to scroll through than the condensed rows in the old system. BECAUSE COLOR IS BETTER THAN FUNCTIONALITY AMIRITE? Combat probes are used for tactical on grid engagements with specific enemies, knowing the distance matters.
|
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:54:00 -
[935] - Quote
I spent like an hour drawing this other picture of how probing and bombing work together, but was informed that you probably won't look/read at hardly any of it.
So I'd like to just say that if we can't figure out what we're warping to and coordinate our probing between the bombers and the dictor, there's really no more effective tactics to bomb fleets with. Unless you're going to give us the ability to warp to ships past 150km on the overview. Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:58:00 -
[936] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:Scanner results are used to parse data for tools and record keeping. Sig strengths on a first pass are used to quickly pick out the sigs of interest, nobody wants to probe 60+ sigs. Apparently CCP is full of wormhole carebears who do. Nobody wants large colorful rows that take 5 times as long to scroll through than the condensed rows in the old system. BECAUSE COLOR IS BETTER THAN FUNCTIONALITY AMIRITE? Combat probes are used for tactical on grid engagements with specific enemies, knowing the distance matters.
+1. Except for the Signal Strength calculation, it makes it far too easy to ignore unwanted signatures without any effort. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:14:00 -
[937] - Quote
I consider myself a pretty decent user of probes. Got Astrometrics V and other probing skills to IV. I live in wormhole space and scan most days and have become quite efficient at it.
To test the new probe system I took my scanning Helios, fitted with Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher and two Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I's and using Sisters Core probes to Actee a 0.5 system. The new overlay scanner runs and after making myself giddy spinning my ship around to see what's in the system, three unidentified sites pop up so I drop the probes and scan down a signature to 100%. Signature is a 'Crumbling Serpentis Mining Installation' although the text alignment is incorrect and all I see is 'ling Serpentis Mining Installation'. It takes me longer to scan this site down than it used to. I have to get the probes down to 0.25AU. Fairly sure I wouldn't have had to go that far before, although not totally sure as I don't do much k-space scanning. Well maybe that's also a function of the skill changes and new modules for Rangefinding and Pinpointing so I go fit a 'Scan Rangefinding Array I' and a 'Scan Pinpointing Array I' in a nearby system then return to Actee and try scanning again for the same signature. This time I can only get the sig to 94%. Something odd here. So I offline the two modules and do another scan which still gives me 94% sig strength. Surely there should be some change - for the worse I would imagine too. With the modules still offline I change the formation of the probes from Pinpoint to Spread which has the annoying side-effect of resizing the probes. So I resize them to 0.25AU put them back in Pinpoint formation, scan again and there's my signature scanned to 100%. So at this time I would say the scanning system is broken or at least modules and skills are not having their bonuses applied correctly
Also noticed that the scanning overlay doesn't update correctly at the moment. Having warped to the signature I scanned down it's still showing as the same distance away and with the original sig strength. |
M'aak'han
C-7
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:27:00 -
[938] - Quote
Junko Sideswipe wrote:I spent like an hour drawing this other picture of how probing and bombing work together, but was informed that you probably won't look/read at hardly any of it.
So I'd like to just say that if we can't figure out what we're warping to and coordinate our probing between the bombers and the dictor, there's really no more effective tactics to bomb fleets with. Unless you're going to give us the ability to warp to ships past 150km on the overview.
CCP Paradox wrote:Known issues:Please read this first, before you try out the features. I will update every server update.
- You cannot resize a probe individually. This will be fixed shortly.
- Resizing probes through right click or probe list will not resize correctly.
- Probe Scan Range does not update in the Probe list UI.
- Scan results in the Scanner window are not currently showing a distance, but will shortly.
- Data Interfaces are being consumed.
- 100% scan results are not being saved when discovered.
- Probe arrows can remain on solar system map after recall.
- New scan modules contain the same pre-reqs for T1 and T2
I highlighted the part pertinent to the problem you mention. I'm afraid you spent one hour drawing for nothing, as the issue is already acknowledged. |
Capqu
Love Squad
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:29:00 -
[939] - Quote
M'aak'han wrote:Junko Sideswipe wrote:I spent like an hour drawing this other picture of how probing and bombing work together, but was informed that you probably won't look/read at hardly any of it.
So I'd like to just say that if we can't figure out what we're warping to and coordinate our probing between the bombers and the dictor, there's really no more effective tactics to bomb fleets with. Unless you're going to give us the ability to warp to ships past 150km on the overview. CCP Paradox wrote:Known issues:Please read this first, before you try out the features. I will update every server update.
- You cannot resize a probe individually. This will be fixed shortly.
- Resizing probes through right click or probe list will not resize correctly.
- Probe Scan Range does not update in the Probe list UI.
- Scan results in the Scanner window are not currently showing a distance, but will shortly.
- Data Interfaces are being consumed.
- 100% scan results are not being saved when discovered.
- Probe arrows can remain on solar system map after recall.
- New scan modules contain the same pre-reqs for T1 and T2
I highlighted the part pertinent to the problem you mention. I'm afraid you spent one hour drawing for nothing, as the issue is already acknowledged.
I think you'll find it didn't used to show distance at all, and they "fixed" it by making it show AU, so no, it isn't. Would be cool if you read through what I originally posted but I guess that's too much to ask.
http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
M'aak'han
C-7
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:20:00 -
[940] - Quote
Capqu wrote: I think you'll find it didn't used to show distance at all, and they "fixed" it by making it show AU, so no, it isn't. Would be cool if you read through what I originally posted but I guess that's too much to ask.
Sorry, my bad. I actually missed this line in your post. You have a very valid point of concern that really needs fixing.
|
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Space Wanderer
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:20:00 -
[941] - Quote
A quick feedback to the last SISI update. All the bugs I reported are still there, and it seems that none of the changes (like the 8th probe, variable number of probes launchable, etc...) have been implemented. I guess that this update was not about scanning changes. |
Capqu
Love Squad
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:42:00 -
[942] - Quote
M'aak'han wrote:Capqu wrote: I think you'll find it didn't used to show distance at all, and they "fixed" it by making it show AU, so no, it isn't. Would be cool if you read through what I originally posted but I guess that's too much to ask.
Sorry, my bad. I actually missed this line in your post. You have a very valid point of concern that really needs fixing.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but I'm assume no, so props to you for admitting when you're wrong
I made an image to better explain exactly what I'm talking about and to highlight just how bad it is for combat probing currently.
http://i.imgur.com/oV3NGe3.png http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:53:00 -
[943] - Quote
Edit: Nvm. I'm done. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:06:00 -
[944] - Quote
Haseo Antares wrote:Edit: Nvm. I'm done.
Your worldly belongings - I can keep them safe? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
M'aak'han
C-7
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:32:00 -
[945] - Quote
Capqu wrote:I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but I'm assume no, so props to you for admitting when you're wrong I made an image to better explain exactly what I'm talking about and to highlight just how bad it is for combat probing currently. http://i.imgur.com/oV3NGe3.png
I wasn't. I was distracted when reading your first post, and this led to me missing this point. Thanks for your commendation
The new picture you made show things a lot more blatantly, I hope this will help the devs in acknowledging/addressing the issue. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:09:00 -
[946] - Quote
They build put up today on sisi has a new problem with the signature results list . The standard filter "show all" doesn't seem to work. If you switch to cosmic anomalies you see anomalies but if you select "show all" again, nothing is found. |
Fereval Kondur
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:13:00 -
[947] - Quote
The new name of the sites are quite boring now. Bring either the old nomenclature back or reconsider them in a more Internet-Spaceship Universe style please.
That's small details like that, that adds to the Universe consistency and credibility I think. |
M'aak'han
C-7
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:40:00 -
[948] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:They build put up today on sisi has a new problem with the signature results list . The standard filter "show all" doesn't seem to work. If you switch to cosmic anomalies you see anomalies but if you select "show all" again, nothing is found.
Confirming this problem. IIRC the same thing happened while the current probing system was being tested. A workaround is to create a new filter containing all the types available.
|
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:11:00 -
[949] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Haseo Antares wrote:Edit: Nvm. I'm done. Your worldly belongings - I can keep them safe?
...I'm not gonna quit over these changes...I'd only quit if CCP implemented golden ammo or some MT like that. I meant I'm done ranting (before I say something against the rules lol). These scanning changes, though horrible in my eyes, are easily adaptable. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:15:00 -
[950] - Quote
The green bar starts over at 0 and animates back to 100 every time it shows up new on screen. For example, scrolling the list, you end up with lots of animating green bars, or when you flip back from the directional scanner tab. Rather annoying.
The list was totally fine before, imo--the new one makes it look like it was designed for children. It doesn't really increase ease-of-use at all for newer players and is just frustrating for older players. |
|
Sicks
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:23:00 -
[951] - Quote
Jivlain Pollard wrote:Previously you could copy-paste signatures from the list in the scan window, and you could also sort signatures on any column - not just strength but also name. These were both rather useful when coordinating multiple scanners. You could, for example, copy out a complete list of signatures, put that in a shared document, and then easily find which signatures you were missing - if we're missing AUN-520, I could easily find AUN-520 in the ingame list by sorting alphabetically.
Now there seems rather impractical to coordinate multiple scanners. You can't copy-paste the list of signatures, and you can't isolate a particular signature by any means other than ignoring everything else. Can this functionality be restored?
This. Please leave scan results as highlightable, copiable, tables. It's super useful for wormhole mapping. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:48:00 -
[952] - Quote
Firstly get the basics done : why do probes go to sun for initial probe when u drop them within 4au of the target, which as you know is so easy to do as the distance for any sig is within 4 au of a celestial body, it is bloody annoying.
also THE TIMER IS IMPORTANT FFS PUT IT BACK IN
also resizing should happen both on screen and in the scanner probe window when you do it no matter where you do it from, not when you push the scan button as that's a little bit late.
Also when changing formation mode PROBES SHOULD NOT RESIZE to some default value.
The Columns are still there so lets have them with the same functionality as the old code (is the code not compatible, do u have no one who can quickly convert old to new if its not?)
get rid of the warp button, the right click menu is universal in eve, keep it that way, that button will cause people grief.
for changes like single launch and custom saves you need extra buttons, reduce font size and reintroduce top button bar, we can argue what goes where later
when you get to the site kill the in space bracket, i.e. if on grid remove bracket from space
in the results reflect what is currently the case as to what is selected on results return, i.e the 100% hits, it allows the low lvl spam to be dealt with quickly and efficiently
AGAIN Stop centring the bloody probes on the sun on initial scan function, when you launch them they are by you, press scan and they disappear to the sun, wtf is with that? |
Arriaz
Mythic Heights
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 23:09:00 -
[953] - Quote
The current system is not broken. There are some quality of life issues for sure but not broken. Why is there a complete overhaul then?
Based strictly on the feedback thus far it appears the SiSi builds are alphas; unpolished, barely functional prototypes. Why do you want to provoke so much anger?
It is apparent that who ever is in charge of this release needs project management skills as there is no over arching integration of the various "features". Instead it appears there are various groups building their own "feature" without knowing what the others are doing.
In short, it appears very little forethought went into what exploration is, what can be done to improve an already working system and that change for change sake is the order of the month (I refuse to believe a proper project plan was actually developed for this release). May I suggest selling off Dust so that CCP can refocus on what is currently paying the bills: EVE Online.
Remember, rightly or wrongly perception is truth. |
ISquishWorms
208
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 23:14:00 -
[954] - Quote
Capqu wrote:M'aak'han wrote:Capqu wrote: I think you'll find it didn't used to show distance at all, and they "fixed" it by making it show AU, so no, it isn't. Would be cool if you read through what I originally posted but I guess that's too much to ask.
Sorry, my bad. I actually missed this line in your post. You have a very valid point of concern that really needs fixing. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but I'm assume no, so props to you for admitting when you're wrong I made an image to better explain exactly what I'm talking about and to highlight just how bad it is for combat probing currently. http://i.imgur.com/oV3NGe3.png
CCP listen to this player ^^ he gets it.
Or explain to us what we are missing and how these are improvements like you claim. . |
FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
234
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 00:49:00 -
[955] - Quote
I'm unsure if this has been stated already or not, but..
I got a signature hit on my scan overlay. When trying to probe it out, I discovered that it doesn't exist, according to my probes. There were no sigs in the system.
How very strange....
Edit:
I figured out what was going on. Sig results aren't being shown when the filter is set on "Show All". They do display when the filter is on "Cosmic Signature" One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia A blog about contractual killing - http://www.blackstormcartel.blogspot.com |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
127
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 02:51:00 -
[956] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the great feedback.
WeGÇÖre writing a dev blog that talks a bit more in depth about many of the changes, but in the meantime I wanted to quickly address a few things:
Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything). This and the heavy overlap with the Sensor Overlay system made us decide to remove them. There are other ways to find/track ships in systems; apart from the D-Scan, there are also the combat probes, which really are there to do what the DSP just did better. I should mention that weGÇÖre adjusting the sweep formation to not have any gaps.
Regarding removing options GÇô there has been some criticism that weGÇÖre removing some edge-case functionality in how some players probe scan. Basically what weGÇÖre doing is creating a streamlined method on how to probe scan, but players are not forced to use this method if theyGÇÖre used to scanning differently. WeGÇÖve tried to maintain the old functionality, short-cuts, etc. as much as possible. But weGÇÖre not aiming to make every single method a streamlined version GÇô basically, you can continue to use scan probes in different ways, but there is no guarantee that this is going to be easier/quicker than the streamlined version.
Regarding new names for sites, decryptors, modules GÇô The main reason for us to change the names of the sites is that the terms (radar, gravimetric, etc.) are already being used elsewhere in the game, and having the same terms over two quite different systems is really confusing. So weGÇÖre not changing them because we didnGÇÖt like them, but because theyGÇÖre already in use. As for other name changes, we decided to go for names that offer a bit better clarity to their functionality GÇô we always try to keep things thematic and cool, but it canGÇÖt be too much at the expense of playability. In these cases we felt it was better to tone down a bit on the thematic names.
Keep the good comments coming, the dev blog should be out late this week or early next week.
Why don't you go and look at the thread on DSP removal in features and ideas to get an idea of why this is some bs. It's not cheating, where's the threads complaining about DSP's being too effective? There isn't any. DSP's allow people who learn how to use them to save time, catch people who don't pay attention and probe people in deep safes far more effectively (to name a few).
Your assumption that your stupid visual overlay is a substitute is just re.tarded (A word from the Oxford dictionary is now spam?). Tables make information easy to take in, I want a table thanks. I also didn't train Astrometrics V for the fun of it.
You removed them without play consultation, you don't respond the thread on the the very subject, you just say "we thought it would be a great, eat it", well where does this kind of thing get you? Look to your past.
1000 dislikes. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 03:40:00 -
[957] - Quote
I noticed you added a green 3 axis cross hair. While interesting, it still doesn't give a good idea of where the probes are relative to a given dot. You should take a page from the tactical overlay and have a line drop down (or up) from the dot to a circle in the plane of the probe. Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 03:49:00 -
[958] - Quote
Another issue: In the "Scanner Window", in the field where the probes are located, it would be nice if the probes' sensor strength was displayed somewhere so users don't have to go into "Fittings > Show Charge Info", which is, frankly, very hard to find for newbies (and very annoying to find for vets).
*edit: The probe launcher tooltip would be another good place to find sensor strength. Science Amongst the Stars: Project Compass http://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/908-science-amongst-the-stars-project-compass |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1849
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 05:03:00 -
[959] - Quote
Ok, I figured it out. Lets just put a door on this new system and give us the option to keep using the old one. I think that would be best. |
So'Cari
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 06:43:00 -
[960] - Quote
Came to leave feedback on the new UI and inability to copy-paste scan results but these four posts already cover my view:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3020484#post3020484
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3026075#post3026075
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3026251#post3026251
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3027437#post3027437
I've just dropped corp because I can't reliably dedicate several hours at a time scanning routes through w-space in search of a fight (#tears). When 'rage rolling' a static is preferred to exploring connected chains that's a good indication of how tedious exploration can be. Removal of DSPs, the new UI and inability to copy-paste to an external spreadsheet / mapping tool make things worse not better for w-space navigation (and clearly impact gameplay in many other areas as well).
+ 1 for putting a door over the new system if it can't be fixed in time for release (seriously, I think most EVE players prefer that a feature is slightly delayed but done properly). |
|
Space Wanderer
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 06:47:00 -
[961] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:I figured out what was going on. Sig results aren't being shown when the filter is set on "Show All". They do display when the filter is on "Cosmic Signature"
Yes, the "show all" seems to be bugged. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 07:15:00 -
[962] - Quote
Again, i would like to remind team Superfriends that all the work they are doing to make this system work they better rewrite the total rookie Exploration tutorial before release so we can test on Sisi to see if they actually got it to make sense and is understandable and an incentive to invest SP in and play.
I feel really bad about having to mention this, but past experiences in how CCP have handled the rookie, getting into eve bit of new stuff is the one thing that drives players away. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:17:00 -
[963] - Quote
you nerf to much recon abilty, you nerf scan range by removing long range probes, wich give info abut ships, structures, sites by giving their basic signal strengths, you give scaner overley, wich give only anomaly and site info, and scaner overley info is not frendly, it should give info in form of list. |
Angus MacDoom
Anomalous Existence Disavowed.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:31:00 -
[964] - Quote
About the only thing I could see that was good about the new probing was the launching of multiple probes in a configuration. I prefer the current "old" probing results window by far. Don't know if anyone else found this, but had to stop after half an hour because my eyes were starting to bleed trying to read the scan results. White text on bright green? no!
Sorry, can't give any real feedback on this, just couldn't focus on it with those bright colours and distracting progressing bars on the results. |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 08:54:00 -
[965] - Quote
I just want to say the new scanning interface is so good that I can't bring myself to scan on TQ anymore. I suppose taking a breke from expo will do me some good. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:20:00 -
[966] - Quote
The amount of whining and bitter tears in this thread is horrible. Half of the people giving 'feedback' didn't even read the known issues list. Why don't you morons get out of the thread and let the people give real feedback who are actually interested in getting the game improved? . |
ISquishWorms
208
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:34:00 -
[967] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:The amount of whining and bitter tears in this thread is horrible. Half of the people giving 'feedback' didn't even read the known issues list. Why don't you morons get out of the thread and let the people give real feedback who are actually interested in getting the game improved?
CCP asked for constructive feed back on the new expansion they plan to roll out, there are lots in this thread providing just that. Where is yours? Or is this it? (simply criticizing those providing the feedback) . |
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:59:00 -
[968] - Quote
There is a small, niggling issue about having to use alt+shift together to alter the probes' relative positions, whereas before only the alt modifier key was required. My own testing shows that this isn't the case, but a related issue is causing the frustration.
Stated problem: alt+shift is needed to reconfigure probes.
Actual behaviour: only alt is required still.
Actual problem: alt cannot be used to move probes as desired because the probe boxes are not shown by default. Shift is required to show the boxes, and then alt held down once the box is captured by the mouse.
Possible solution: allow the alt modifier key to reveal the probe boxes, just as shift currently does.
So the probe boxes remain hidden by default, but when non-standard behaviour is required, both the shift modifier and alt modifier reveal the probe boxes, negating the requirement to hold both keys, or fiddly behaviour of holding shift, grabbing a box, and then swapping for alt. |
M'aak'han
C-7
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:04:00 -
[969] - Quote
CCP Paradox,
There is probably some confusion now in the thread coming from the fact that the list of known issues doesn't reflect the current Sisi build.
If you can spare some time to update this list, it could help late comers to the testing (like me) in knowing what's being worked on, and probably squash some misunderstandings as a side effect. |
DeviantAnt
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:13:00 -
[970] - Quote
Hi there! I thought I will give my views on the new probing/scanning. I can understand all the rage against the 7 probes usage only, I would love to use 8 as I always do. But things change a lot in life and in eve also. This could have been even worse. If a newer pilot wants to give a try in the currently magical area of probing and profession site gameplay, they face quiet a challange. They atill will after the patch. Experienced players on the other hand will and are feeling like something that they enjoyed and loved, something they were good at and other didn't even know what they were talking about is taken away. I feel the same, but as I said things change, have to live with it. Adapt to the changes.
I found quiet a few interesting things while I was trying out the new scanning, doing relic or data sites:
- Please bring back the timer on the probe life times. - Alt + Shift key combo is a nightmare - Yesterday I sadly realized only the area specific ice were elft in the ice belts, I loved the idea to have all type in one place but in fewer ammount - On scan overlay the scanned out sites stay the original red-ish orange color no matter what - In data or relic sites if you lock the targets for hacking or analyzation the modules won't activate. Opening them form the overview brings up the hacking minigame. Opening from the locket target will instantly open it and you can grab the loot. - Bring back the timer on how much left form the scan cycle (hard to tell if the scanning modules actually do their jobs or not, at least on the sacn time reduction)
All together scanning become reakin easy now which at the end will impact the market badly I think.
Hope no one took anything I wrote in any bad way. So CCP started to do a good job on it but made it damned easy for older pilots skilled (not only skill wise) in scanning. I have mixed feelings but one thing is for sure at least for me... the new system killed the fun in scanning.... |
|
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:22:00 -
[971] - Quote
Okay after further testing I reckon you are so close to having a scanning system I am excited about (as a wormholer who lives and dies by scanning). The feature to auto size the cluster by clicking and dragging the bubbles is super fantastically awesome. I have dreamed of having such a feature. For those who haven't tried it, it will change the size of your probes in one go AND also move the probe position in/out so the same level of overlap is maintained. Also this still works when your probes are set to different radii - it will step each up or down in size by one level.
For me the main issue is still the formations. In a pinch when you only have a couple of sigs the default pinpoint formation is okay. However It's an absolute pig for all the existing pro scanners who have their own formations. If we can't save a custom formation, at the very least some way to get the probes to be all on top of each other would be a good compromise as that's the easiest starting point for formations and it reuses the existing muscle memories people have to setup formations. |
|
CCP Paradox
850
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:48:00 -
[972] - Quote
M'aak'han wrote:CCP Paradox, There is probably some confusion now in the thread coming from the fact that the list of known issues doesn't reflect the current Sisi build. If you can spare some time to update this list, it could help late comers to the testing (like me) in knowing what's being worked on, and probably squash some misunderstandings as a side effect.
I have been working in so many different builds, I have forgotten how out of date Singularity is now. I update some points, and all but one issue has been so far fixed internally. (So should be in next build) Also, for the people who have recently talked about ALT+Shift, this is changed as earlier mentioned. Holding ALT down now will show all probe positional arrows, and allow you to move them as you have come to expect. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
M'aak'han
C-7
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:51:00 -
[973] - Quote
Thanks for the heads up, CCP Paradox |
Capqu
Love Squad
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:55:00 -
[974] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:M'aak'han wrote:CCP Paradox, There is probably some confusion now in the thread coming from the fact that the list of known issues doesn't reflect the current Sisi build. If you can spare some time to update this list, it could help late comers to the testing (like me) in knowing what's being worked on, and probably squash some misunderstandings as a side effect. I have been working in so many different builds, I have forgotten how out of date Singularity is now. I update some points, and all but one issue has been so far fixed internally. (So should be in next build) Also, for the people who have recently talked about ALT+Shift, this is changed as earlier mentioned. Holding ALT down now will show all probe positional arrows, and allow you to move them as you have come to expect.
Any feedback on the issues outlined in this picture http://i.imgur.com/oV3NGe3.png ?
If they've been fixed already I'd love to know, because this is a huge concern for me and my corp (since we do bombing frequently). http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1852
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:03:00 -
[975] - Quote
Matuk Grymwal wrote:For those who haven't tried it, it will change the size of your probes in one go AND also move the probe position in/out so the same level of overlap is maintained. Also this still works when your probes are set to different radii - it will step each up or down in size by one level. +1 for this being awesome :). |
|
CCP Paradox
851
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:10:00 -
[976] - Quote
Capqu wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:M'aak'han wrote:CCP Paradox, There is probably some confusion now in the thread coming from the fact that the list of known issues doesn't reflect the current Sisi build. If you can spare some time to update this list, it could help late comers to the testing (like me) in knowing what's being worked on, and probably squash some misunderstandings as a side effect. I have been working in so many different builds, I have forgotten how out of date Singularity is now. I update some points, and all but one issue has been so far fixed internally. (So should be in next build) Also, for the people who have recently talked about ALT+Shift, this is changed as earlier mentioned. Holding ALT down now will show all probe positional arrows, and allow you to move them as you have come to expect. Any feedback on the issues outlined in this picture http://i.imgur.com/oV3NGe3.png ? If they've been fixed already I'd love to know, because this is a huge concern for me and my corp (since we do bombing frequently).
Fixed internally, you will see in the Current build of Sisi being able to sort by distance and strength. This was an initial test to check if it was easily feasible. And so we provided the rest of them. (Currently on my client, it appears: Distance, ID, Scan Group, Group, Type, Signal Strength). And also Km is back, it was just not finished at the time of deploying Singularity. So please check next time Singularity has an update! CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
|
CCP Paradox
851
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:23:00 -
[977] - Quote
After just checking out the differences between what we have finished the past few days, and what is on Singularity. I just wanted to point out that you can Copy/Paste the scan results like you can in Retribution. As many gave feedback on that. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1023
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:30:00 -
[978] - Quote
CCP Paradox, I know you said the skill changes were final, but would you consider reducing the effectiveness of the Astrometrics skill as of right now it almost makes obsolete the scanning support skills. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:42:00 -
[979] - Quote
Updates sound very nice, I think this feature will be great :)
ISquishWorms wrote:CCP asked for constructive feed back on the new expansion they plan to roll out, there are lots in this thread providing just that. Where is yours? Further up, buried between a couple hundred whine posts :p . |
Capqu
Love Squad
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:51:00 -
[980] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Capqu wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:M'aak'han wrote:CCP Paradox, There is probably some confusion now in the thread coming from the fact that the list of known issues doesn't reflect the current Sisi build. If you can spare some time to update this list, it could help late comers to the testing (like me) in knowing what's being worked on, and probably squash some misunderstandings as a side effect. I have been working in so many different builds, I have forgotten how out of date Singularity is now. I update some points, and all but one issue has been so far fixed internally. (So should be in next build) Also, for the people who have recently talked about ALT+Shift, this is changed as earlier mentioned. Holding ALT down now will show all probe positional arrows, and allow you to move them as you have come to expect. Any feedback on the issues outlined in this picture http://i.imgur.com/oV3NGe3.png ? If they've been fixed already I'd love to know, because this is a huge concern for me and my corp (since we do bombing frequently). Fixed internally, you will see in the Current build of Sisi being able to sort by distance and strength. This was an initial test to check if it was easily feasible. And so we provided the rest of them. (Currently on my client, it appears: Distance, ID, Scan Group, Group, Type, Signal Strength). And also Km is back, it was just not finished at the time of deploying Singularity. So please check next time Singularity has an update!
Great news, thank you.
http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
|
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
421
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:12:00 -
[981] - Quote
are the scan results of that scanny thing that happens when you undock or jump, going to be shown in the scan results table window?
currently they are not showing there unless you hit scan, wait and get results from that. OMG when can i get a pic here
|
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:25:00 -
[982] - Quote
after new patch imposible to approach hacking structures (Regional sansha command center site) and open cans. i opened cans only after sansha battlestation was blown. is it intended? The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year.... |
Karbox Delacroix
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:40:00 -
[983] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Hey all. Lovely feedback. Keep it coming. You've identified several defects and made us rethink some of our design decisions. This is what the test server is all about. Paradox has a list of the known issues in the OP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2995203Some examples of what the team has been discussing based on this thread: Quote: Deep Space Probes??!?
The purpose of Deep Space Probes is to give you a quick scan of the solar system before you start probing things down. The new system overlay already gives you this information without needing probes so Deep Space Probes are no longer needed. Most people seemed to be using 7 probes. Additionally, that number lends itself much better to isometric shapes which are easy to identify and assemble. Fixing it at 7 probes was done to simplify things for less experienced players and reduce micromanagement of probes. The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that you want the 8th probe back, so we are now working on putting it back. Quote: Copy results as table
Switching the probe result UI from raw table to a progress bar meant that we lost this much loved functionality. We are working on getting it back. Sort results by distance This is coming back. Launching fewer probes We are changing it so that you can launch any number of probes you want (up to the maximum of 8).
tl;dr:
"Go shoot a f&%$ing statue, pubbies." - CCP |
Sol Invictii
Imperium Clathraticum Curiae Edictum
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:40:00 -
[984] - Quote
Current Issues:
- Probe interface does not show all relevant data... probe life, etc etc (like the old interface did)
- No easy way to resize the probe positioning like TQ has currently
- Probes not identifiable once launched... "Did I launch sisters? or vanilla? or RSS???"
Anti-Nerf Issues:
You have taken my sandbox which was a beach, and you have fenced it in to be a 10x10 area. Complexity and Depth are the draw of this game. I don't want to walk down the same path as every other noob, so please don't force me to.
- I have no option on how many probes I wish to launch. I may wish to launch 1 to keep an eye on sigs, but your solution is now to launch 7 and recall 6? That's counterproductive. Please add the ability to change the default number of probes to be launched. Or an ability to launch only a specified number of probes.
- I am forced to use your "ideal" setups. While CCP may believe they are perfect, this has been proven by the player base to be incorrect. 50000 vs <50ish... Players are more likely to get things correct. Please allow us to save our own formations and use them, or be able to replace your formations with ours.
- Changes should be to assist the player if they so desire, not to force the player to use them.
|
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:11:00 -
[985] - Quote
After some testing today and after a bunch of trips down the electrified intestines of doom (the new jump scene)
1. I'm at a gate and dropped pinpoint probes. I can see my probes in space around me but on the map they are already centered at the sun. I don't want them centered there, if I had I would have dropped them there. Sometimes for PvP sake I need to drop probes where I'm at and quickly be ready to scan where I am (getting ready for incoming punt for a hostile fleet in warp to me but likely to land at a tac.) Now I have to move the probes back to me on the map. Bottom line the probes in the solar system map should show up where you deployed them from.
2. The whole scan thing replacing the DSP: A) needs to populate the system scanner. Swinging the camera around to find where the various sigs and anoms is annoying, particularly as often you'll be having to avoid a camp or what not. The list the DSP provided was much more user friendly than these big diamonds in the sky. And I still have to hit the other scanner to get the list of anoms so I can do my dscan thing to find which one the null bear is in. So the windshield wiper provided me with little that was helpful. (particularly when dscan-ing using range reduction to narrow target location.
B) Ok, since I don't have a list I need to leave the thing running but having that big pixel windshield wiper thing running is distracting as hell, particularly while having to do other things in space. Fine have the windshield wiper run once but if you select to leave the overlay on just have the sigs show up in space without any further windshield wiper effects.
C) It doesn't show ships or structures! So this scanner is less useful than my DSP. A whole flight of Combat probes are too slow and likely to scare off the prey. I want to drop the DSP well away from 14 AU and get a good picture. DSP did the trick. Can't sort by distance for quick D-scan trick combined with DSP to get on a target quickly. Very sad.
3. I can't figure out how to put multiples of 4 probes out now. I can't launch 8 or singles? So I used to be able to have 4 combats out at very large covering most of system or DSPs(usually DSP's). But off grid/scan of most things. But I also had a set of 4 combats ready in tight formation that I could drop in close (turning off one set and switching to the others.) Can't do that now well since I have a 3-4 thing going that is very awkward. Moving and adjusting sets is really awkward now. Not sure if I'm just fat fingering this as I'm used to shift to size probes strength and alt for tighten/loosen the pack.
4. Once the windshield wiper shows me the sig, and I've scanned it down with probes at 100%, maybe the bracket in space should turn green too?
Overall, really don't see the scanner as a good replacement for the DSP, its distracting and the information if provides is not as consumable as the spread sheet. |
Giorgos Rbs
Surfers of the Apocalypse Trueheart Legion
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:13:00 -
[986] - Quote
So many replies hard to go through them all so i'll just write what i saw for whoever cares to read as a feedback.
I tested probing on SISI yesterday and.... it feels quite broken due to obvious technical bugs (like unable to change the scan range of probes) Hopefully the technical stuff will be fixed before they hit TQ
-Launching 7 probes at once is a major gameplay change for me because i use combat probes for defensive purposes (spamming the combat probe to see if new ships appear on it so i can gtfo) By allowing 7 probes to be launched at once, the "offensive prober" doesn't need to stay decloaked for too long and if i (defensive) missed a cycle on my combat probe i wouldn't see his ship on the list. Of course i can still see his probes on dscan yada yada, but this is a major change of gameplay and not for the best imo.
-Probes seem to not expire? (or maybe their lifetime is invisible due to a bug?) In case they don't expire thats bad for the probing market :o
-Formations... It does look helpful and all BUT i would rather see it as an addition to the current mechanics and not the ONLY way to probe - feels very restraining if not dumb. After several minutes of frustration i managed to move individual probes out of the formation with a combination of alt+shift (which also changed my typing language to greek) so please give us easier access to the old way of moving probes - all of it. I have come across signatures where the "cross" shape doesn't work even at the closest range and you need to use more irregular shapes to get the 100% result (don't tell me to train Astro lvl5 thank you) - Formations are welcome only as an ADDITION
-Ice fields don't show up on probes they only show up in space with this new fancy scanner- maybe that's intentional. I would like to be able to see them on some kind of list and not have to look around in space to locate them. Its impractical (if that's what it takes to eliminate mining bots though, i can live with it) Also the fancy scanner visual effect gets annoying after a while so a way to be able to see the scanned sigs without the effect would be welcome
-Every site that previously needed probing to be accessed and now doesn't is also a major gameplay change since people in the site may have no dscan warning of the attackers before they are engaged and owned. We'll get used to it i guess
-Finally... Don't remove the deep space probe. Even though i don't use it, cause wormhole systems are usually small enough for combat probes, i can definitely see its purpose so please don't fix it, its not broken (the spread formation is what is broken as others have already mentioned)
Thanks for reading -Gio |
Sol Invictii
Imperium Clathraticum Curiae Edictum
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:30:00 -
[987] - Quote
Giorgos Rbs wrote:
-Probes seem to not expire? (or maybe their lifetime is invisible due to a bug?) In case they don't expire thats bad for the probing market :o
I tested this yesterday (Probes still do expire), but it appears that the current scanner interface simply lacks the probe lifetime readout.
I feel like we just got "upgraded" to OSX from unix. I can't wait for the spinning colorwheel of doom. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
742
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:59:00 -
[988] - Quote
Sol Invictii wrote:
...I feel like we just got "upgraded" to OSX from unix. I can't wait for the spinning colorwheel of doom.
Don't insult OS X like this. I use Macs everyday and OS X actually WORKS, unlike this new scanning system.
I'd read through a lot of the feedback but, decided to get onto Singularity again myself to try scanning out. Holy crap! With so many things not working correctly it can be a little hard to give proper feedback but, here are a couple of things that I'd like to mention:
Please give us the option as to the number of probes launched. I typically launch a single probe to see what's in the system and then a few others (usually 4) to actually pinpoint the sites. The only way to do this now is to launch 7 and recall 6. This doesn't make my scanning simpler or faster.
Having to twist and pan the camera around to see the results of the scan overlay is similarly frustrating and time wasting.
Why don't the results from the overlay scan appear in the system scanner? They also aren't showing up after I launch probes using the spread formation. Is this broken, by design or, am I doing something "wrong"? So far I haven't been able to do much testing because I'm not even able to get any sigs to show up anywhere other than the overlay.
I hope you get the issues brought up in this thread addressed so we can test them properly before Odyssey launches. I really don't want to have to toss out everything I've learned about scanning over the past few years and start over.
What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Kaeda Maxwell
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
193
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:08:00 -
[989] - Quote
I hate the fact that Havens/Hubs no longer show in the system scanner under scan results it makes bookmarking them or even just clicking them to warp to very very tedious, please change this back so they show up there again. |
Adaahh Gee
Rock jockeyz
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:44:00 -
[990] - Quote
Just logged onto Sisi to test out the new scanning interface, Oh my god, what have you done??
I was hoping for a fine tuning of the old system with the ability to save scan probe layouts and improve the general UI. I cannot believe how horrible this new system is to use, not only the changing of the function of shift and alt keys, but the choice to only launch a full spread of probes. Maybe I could keep a small can in my cargo and only load as many as I need?
In the few systems i tried, there was a signature shown when the "Radar sweep" happened when i landed in system (can we have a toggle to turn this on/off?) however, when i launched probes, i could not find a sig to scan, tried this in a few more systems and still no joy. Are they only active in certain systems or was i doing something wrong?
I also noticed that the ability to change the pop out menu when you click on your ship from being activated by middle or left mouse button has been removed? any reason for this, or is it just a way to force people to use the new selection wheel pop up?
Every time there is an update, I dread the ill-conceived things that will be done by the people that make this game, but obviously do not play this game. |
|
Giorgos Rbs
Surfers of the Apocalypse Trueheart Legion
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:04:00 -
[991] - Quote
So i logged on again today to have a better look at the scanning.... things
Anomalies no longer appear on probe or on board scanner. Only way to access them is via this fancy new scanner. Furthermore, we only see the sig number (ABC-123) visually and we have to mouseover in order to know what kind of anomaly it is.
So... let me get this straight.. I am jumping into a wormhole with 20+ anomalies and... i am supposed to start looking around like a 10yr old with goggles to bookmark them? Then mouseover to tell the combat sites from the grav ladar... then look again to make sure i didn't miss any? Get serious ffs. Whoever designed this thing clearly doesn't play the same game as us |
ISquishWorms
208
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:10:00 -
[992] - Quote
Giorgos Rbs wrote:So i logged on again today to have a better look at the scanning.... things Anomalies no longer appear on probe or on board scanner. Only way to access them is via this fancy new scanner. Furthermore, we only see the sig number (ABC-123) visually and we have to mouseover in order to know what kind of anomaly it is. So... let me get this straight.. I am jumping into a wormhole with 20+ anomalies and... i am supposed to start looking around like a 10yr old with goggles to bookmark them? Then mouseover to tell the combat sites from the grav ladar... then look again to make sure i didn't miss any? Get serious ffs. Whoever designed this thing clearly doesn't play the same game as us
Sounds about right, CCP consider this an improvement. Don't you? . |
jinsoown
100 Percent Apple Juice
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:26:00 -
[993] - Quote
the current scanning system is better then the one on the test server i would gladly keep the current system of probing i really hope they do not force this on us like they did with the inventory system |
ISquishWorms
208
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:27:00 -
[994] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Updates sound very nice, I think this feature will be great :) ISquishWorms wrote:CCP asked for constructive feed back on the new expansion they plan to roll out, there are lots in this thread providing just that. Where is yours? Further up, buried between a couple hundred whine posts :p
Fair enough sorry for missing it. Although the whiners as you call them (which may or may not include me) are only doing so because they are unhappy with the way the new probing system works. If they did not whine about it CCP would not know that we are not happy about it, and what parts of it we are not happy about.
I did actually agree with your feedback on the new gate transition post, think I even liked your post. . |
Neele Shandar
Rock jockeyz
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:32:00 -
[995] - Quote
probing now sucks big time with the new changes change it back pls |
Tyrone Nolm
100 Percent Apple Juice
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:35:00 -
[996] - Quote
i have a few problems with this new probing system -all the different combinations of buttons just to move the probes around -the probes start in the center of the system -have to launch as many probes as u can use -more time involved to get to the scanning window -just tried to use it and it just annoyed me and anyone i talked to about it this is why i think the probing system that is already on tq works just fine i really hope that they do not change this otherwise im done doing anything with probing |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1027
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:38:00 -
[997] - Quote
It has been said a thousand times, and I will say it again "The only thing we wanted was probe formations" Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Tangra Leviathas
100 Percent Apple Juice
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:39:00 -
[998] - Quote
the nicest way i can put this is i will cry if they place is on tq |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:48:00 -
[999] - Quote
remove colors from background from site info in system scaner window, it is annoying for longer time, or make it custom |
Sol Invictii
Imperium Clathraticum Curiae Edictum
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:49:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:It has been said a thousand times, and I will say it again "The only thing we wanted was probe formations"
And you got it... CCP just removed everything else from probing |
|
kyofu
Praetorian Black Guard Frater Adhuc Excessum
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 23:06:00 -
[1001] - Quote
1)
From reading this thread and the other related threads, one of the main goals of odyssey's changes to exploration seems to be to make exploration more accessible. Considering how many explorers there are in hisec already, why is this a concern? Exploration is already quite accessible, so much so that players are competing and racing each other in sites. The only concern, really, is the disparate proportion of explorers active in certain areas compared to other areas. ie Guristas vs Sansha, or hisec vs lowsec. Or anything drone. DSP filtering is also a concern for many. Accessibility to the profession as a whole though is not.
Assuming this patch succeeds and actually makes exploration more accessible, I have doubts that increased accessibility will end up being a desirable outcome for anyone.
2)
There should be some learning curve associated with exploration, just as there is with any other profession in Eve. This is both a character learning curve, and a RL learning curve. Previous posters have mentioned this often referring to these changes as "dumbing exploration down" etc. Some dismiss this point, but it is actually an important consideration. Many of us have spent years exploring, and the idea that the changes are going to remove much of the need for our hard won knowledge and skill is insulting to many explorers. I think this has been made clear in other posts. However, its also important to new and would-be explorers, as EVE is a game about self accomplishment. Most of the player base takes satisfaction from learning what has historically been one of the most difficult MMORPGs to learn and succeed in. So while we appreciate your efforts to save our wrists by adding the option to launch 8 probes at once, or to use preset formations we also resent being forced to use game defined formations, and giving the uneducated instant access to those formations. I have horrible wrists and exploration is bad for them, but I do it anyway because it is fun and I enjoy the fact that I am good at it. I also remember long ago when it was hard and I was not good at it, and this furthers my satisfaction. I have seen so many games that don't understand that in order for something to be enjoyable, it must first be difficult. It is a point that EVE seemed to grasp so please don't lose sight of it now.
3)
As an explorer I don't remember the last time I actually looked at space. I am not in a car, looking out my windshield. Why would I do such a silly thing, when I have a z axis to contend with? Spaceship instrumentation's most basic function is to make complicated information presentable and usable. While there is nothing wrong with having sites show up in space if i happen to be looking at space, there is a very large problem with equating the new discovery scanner with the old list. There is a very large problem with forcing me to look at space. The two systems are not equal, and replacing the list with the new system would be a very negative change that fundamentally affects exploration.
In closing...
I think it's extremely important to remember current explorers and be careful the new system does not alienate them. Not only because I am one, but because it is an important way to approach design changes. Suddenly altering our shortcuts is just a silly move that will **** a lot of people off every time their muscle memory tells them to do what they've been doing for the last (3? 4?) years. The intent of these changes seems to display a bit of a lack of understanding about what much of the player base enjoys about eve. There are a lot of really good ideas and tools that will help explorers and add new life to exploration, but removing DSPs, removing the scanning list, inverting shortcut keys and invalidating everything about a system many have spent years perfecting is a better way to alienate existing explorers than it is a way to create new ones.
-Kyo |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 00:29:00 -
[1002] - Quote
How could I pass up post 1000.
Time to see what has changed on SiSi. |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
227
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:00:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:After some testing today and after a bunch of trips down the electrified intestines of doom (the new jump scene)
1. I'm at a gate and dropped pinpoint probes. I can see my probes in space around me but on the map they are already centered at the sun. I don't want them centered there, if I had I would have dropped them there. Sometimes for PvP sake I need to drop probes where I'm at and quickly be ready to scan where I am (getting ready for incoming punt for a hostile fleet in warp to me but likely to land at a tac.) Now I have to move the probes back to me on the map. Bottom line the probes in the solar system map should show up where you deployed them from.
A dev addressed this earlier and if you were paying attention on Sisi you would notice this from the overview -- when you launch probes they are still at your ship -- it is just that in the solar system view they start at the sun by default until you click the scan button. They said they were reconsidering this, but it is purely cosmetic not functional change. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1029
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:18:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Mariner6 wrote:After some testing today and after a bunch of trips down the electrified intestines of doom (the new jump scene)
1. I'm at a gate and dropped pinpoint probes. I can see my probes in space around me but on the map they are already centered at the sun. I don't want them centered there, if I had I would have dropped them there. Sometimes for PvP sake I need to drop probes where I'm at and quickly be ready to scan where I am (getting ready for incoming punt for a hostile fleet in warp to me but likely to land at a tac.) Now I have to move the probes back to me on the map. Bottom line the probes in the solar system map should show up where you deployed them from.
A dev addressed this earlier and if you were paying attention on Sisi you would notice this from the overview -- when you launch probes they are still at your ship -- it is just that in the solar system view they start at the sun by default until you click the scan button. They said they were reconsidering this, but it is purely cosmetic not functional change. If you would have read all the way through his post you would have seen that he wants them to stay by his ship on the map view so he can do on grid scanning. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Arriaz
Mythic Heights
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:46:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Mariner6 wrote:After some testing today and after a bunch of trips down the electrified intestines of doom (the new jump scene)
1. I'm at a gate and dropped pinpoint probes. I can see my probes in space around me but on the map they are already centered at the sun. I don't want them centered there, if I had I would have dropped them there. Sometimes for PvP sake I need to drop probes where I'm at and quickly be ready to scan where I am (getting ready for incoming punt for a hostile fleet in warp to me but likely to land at a tac.) Now I have to move the probes back to me on the map. Bottom line the probes in the solar system map should show up where you deployed them from.
A dev addressed this earlier and if you were paying attention on Sisi you would notice this from the overview -- when you launch probes they are still at your ship -- it is just that in the solar system view they start at the sun by default until you click the scan button. They said they were reconsidering this, but it is purely cosmetic not functional change. If you would have read all the way through his post you would have seen that he wants them to stay by his ship on the map view so he can do on grid scanning.
Either way a cosmetic change for the sake of a change is a poor use of time: Time that could have been spent improving an existing system versus creating something new that no one asked for. |
Arriaz
Mythic Heights
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:59:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Let us be clear, many many people do not like what they currently seeing on SiSi. On the other hand many do like the direction the dev team is going. You cannot please all the people all the time. So let us take stock:
How could the dev team have proceeded when tasked with doing something with scanning. Two options come to mind. First they could have posted a survey asking for feedback. Second they could have started a feedback thread asking for ideas on how to improve the existing system.
So here we are. What can we all do now?
The build on SiSi can only be described as an Alpha build. Essentially broken with interesting possibilities but over all poor execution. The feedback has been mostly negative. Understandable. A lot of the feedback has been constructive and the devs appear to be taking it seriously.
I recommend starting a Version 2 of this thread when the next build hits SiSi. Why? Because we need to give considered, reasonable feedback to that build. A lot of the dev replies in this thread are getting lost/missed as people do not want to wade through 51 pages to find dev replies.
There really is little time before June, we need to get this right because CCP is quite poor at fixing things post go live: New thread for the next build and considered constructive feedback for BOTH good and poor functionality. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1029
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 05:23:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Arriaz wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Mariner6 wrote:After some testing today and after a bunch of trips down the electrified intestines of doom (the new jump scene)
1. I'm at a gate and dropped pinpoint probes. I can see my probes in space around me but on the map they are already centered at the sun. I don't want them centered there, if I had I would have dropped them there. Sometimes for PvP sake I need to drop probes where I'm at and quickly be ready to scan where I am (getting ready for incoming punt for a hostile fleet in warp to me but likely to land at a tac.) Now I have to move the probes back to me on the map. Bottom line the probes in the solar system map should show up where you deployed them from.
A dev addressed this earlier and if you were paying attention on Sisi you would notice this from the overview -- when you launch probes they are still at your ship -- it is just that in the solar system view they start at the sun by default until you click the scan button. They said they were reconsidering this, but it is purely cosmetic not functional change. If you would have read all the way through his post you would have seen that he wants them to stay by his ship on the map view so he can do on grid scanning. Either way a cosmetic change for the sake of a change is a poor use of time: Time that could have been spent improving an existing system versus creating something new that no one asked for. What? This is not a cosmetic change, when I launch probes and there default location is the sun and I hit scan they warp to the sun, if I launch probes and there default location is on me, then when I hit scan guess where they will stay.... On me Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:02:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Arriaz wrote:Let us be clear, many many people do not like what they currently seeing on SiSi. On the other hand many do like the direction the dev team is going. You cannot please all the people all the time. So let us take stock:
How could the dev team have proceeded when tasked with doing something with scanning. Two options come to mind. First they could have posted a survey asking for feedback. Second they could have started a feedback thread asking for ideas on how to improve the existing system.
So here we are. What can we all do now?
The build on SiSi can only be described as an Alpha build. Essentially broken with interesting possibilities but over all poor execution. The feedback has been mostly negative. Understandable. A lot of the feedback has been constructive and the devs appear to be taking it seriously.
I recommend starting a Version 2 of this thread when the next build hits SiSi. Why? Because we need to give considered, reasonable feedback to that build. A lot of the dev replies in this thread are getting lost/missed as people do not want to wade through 51 pages to find dev replies.
There really is little time before June, we need to get this right because CCP is quite poor at fixing things post go live: New thread for the next build and considered constructive feedback for BOTH good and poor functionality.
i agree on new thread on next build, it will be better as what is on Sisi atm is not fit for internal testing let alone Duality its really impossible to test it with so many code errors unlinked features that need linking and basic design errors, its like buying a car today and getting a box of model T parts to self assemble instead of a e class merc.
also i suggest the dev tean start playing it on 21" screens to see what joe average who plays eve gets to look at, its surprising what monitor size does to a game with silly tablet mini games that take up the whole screen and break immersion, its like alt tabing out of eve, yeah, did they think of that at all, i bet you it never crossed their minds in any meaning full way.
|
Rammix
FreeWorkers
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:04:00 -
[1009] - Quote
- Scanning radius is still not showing until you actually activate scan. I.e. while you're changing it you can only see the previous radius.
- Sorting by distance/signature take effect only after you rescan. Sorting doesn't change the order of sigs before that.
- When you choose 'Show all' and scan the first time, it shows nothing. It starts showing signatures only after you scan with another filter.
- Copy/paste isn't working.
Some of these, or all, may be already known though. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Rook Otomeya
Victrix Immortalis Sovereign Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:12:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Hello I`m not a really bit explorer I log in SISI yestarday and i dont like the new sistem because: The new "windshield" sistem overlay is messed up, i dont want some damn curtain to be drawn on my eyes everytime i move my ship, It feel like i need to look in space through dirty glasses, I dont like it, put a option to disable it, and put sigs in a list.
|
|
Dominatus01
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:11:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Having taken a step back for a few days to re-evaluate my feelings on the scanning changes I have come to a conclusion...
It feels to me like the odyssey scanning upgrade is more like an "old" system, and the current "live" DSP system is in fact the new, shiny upgrade to it....
I am left with a sinking feeling of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ! |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:19:00 -
[1012] - Quote
'Instant action menu' still keeps active until logoff. You activate it just one time and no matter what you do - press it again or change a system - it keeps calling radial menu instantly. I mean, you just use it once, then you don't press it anymore, but the radial menu will pop up instantly on every simple click. AFAIK only logoff helps. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Rammix
FreeWorkers
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:20:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Rook Otomeya wrote: put sigs in a list.
Launch probes. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:28:00 -
[1014] - Quote
when site is scaned to 100% and it is warpable, and then i scan next site in this system, without returning probes to cargo, the warpable/scaned 100% site disaper, and i must scan this site again, scaned site shuold stay 100% scaned in system scaner in the same scaning sesion if i start scaning other sites |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
290
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:12:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Arriaz wrote:I recommend starting a Version 2 of this thread when the next build hits SiSi. Why? Because we need to give considered, reasonable feedback to that build. A lot of the dev replies in this thread are getting lost/missed as people do not want to wade through 51 pages to find dev replies.
Well... you can click on the dev tag to auto-find the next dev response as well ;) |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:29:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Just so you devs don't think players are unanimous in hating that the probe positioning is now at the system center by default: I very much like this change. Every prober starts scanning a system from the center outwards, because most of the planets are usually clustered in the center and thus most signatures are there. That CCP has made this change shows that the person who made that actually plays the game and knows how explorers work.
The far less common case of combat probing on your grid or very close to your ship may involve moving your probes once... big deal . |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:36:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Arriaz wrote:I recommend starting a Version 2 of this thread when the next build hits SiSi. Why? Because we need to give considered, reasonable feedback to that build. A lot of the dev replies in this thread are getting lost/missed as people do not want to wade through 51 pages to find dev replies. Well... you can click on the dev tag to auto-find the next dev response as well ;) yeah and get one answer to one question or a flippant remark..
Hopefully the new build should/will be so radically different to what is present that the 50 pages here become a distraction to what is presented.
Even updating page one list is pointless at this stage, best start over with Mark II version to stop confusion and ppl reading outdated stuff
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:47:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Just so you devs don't think players are unanimous in hating that the probe positioning is now at the system center by default: I very much like this change. Every prober starts scanning a system from the center outwards, because most of the planets are usually clustered in the center and thus most signatures are there. That CCP has made this change shows that the person who made that actually plays the game and knows how explorers work. The far less common case of combat probing on your grid or very close to your ship may involve moving your probes once... big deal
"every prober" thats total bullshit, you maybe the cookie cutters aka 60%, but you just pulled that out of your ar*e, probes and probing to those that do it daily relies on personal preference, confirming unwanted known sigs and removing them, that is not done with a super probe or from the centre.
All this abortive attempt shows is they want to reinvent from scratch instead of upgrade and refine using existing known reliable systems, they don-¦t explore they play at it sometimes and only at a rookie or basic level as they do not have the time to invest at work or at home to be proficient in it and make isk.
they really are raging against those who took to the profession, which has become devalued due to over supply of rewards, and the increased competition who at low skill levels get ar*e mopped by elite players who have invested months in skills (which get thrown away and not compensated for), they cant get it to work so they are changing it to how they think they can work it and overlay some shiny shiny to keep the morons happy.
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CCP Paradox
855
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 10:30:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Singularity is coming online with an update in the next hour. Rather than address a bunch of individual points, please have another look on the server.
There are quite a few points addressed already, with still many more to come. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 10:44:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:"every prober" thats total bullshit, you maybe the cookie cutters aka 60%, but you just pulled that out of your ar*e, probes and probing to those that do it daily relies on personal preference, confirming unwanted known sigs and removing them, that is not done with a super probe or from the centre.
All this abortive attempt shows is they want to reinvent from scratch instead of upgrade and refine using existing known reliable systems, they don-¦t explore they play at it sometimes and only at a rookie or basic level as they do not have the time to invest at work or at home to be proficient in it and make isk.
they really are raging against those who took to the profession, which has become devalued due to over supply of rewards, and the increased competition who at low skill levels get ar*e mopped by elite players who have invested months in skills (which get thrown away and not compensated for), they cant get it to work so they are changing it to how they think they can work it and overlay some shiny shiny to keep the morons happy.
Ok maybe I shouldn't have said "everyone". But certainly your pov isn't representative of everyone either.
I spend maybe ~70% of my play time scanning and have probed down 1500 signatures in the last 3 months alone (yes I use a tool that counts this automatically :p). So I'm not a casual scanner I think.
The new system is *not* reinventing anything from scratch, scanning still works the same in principle. It just becomes faster for everyone, which means that a bad scanner will be faster than now, but a good scanner will be even faster than the bad scanner. And I love this change. Because while I love scouting and exploration, it is more for what I will find (pvp hopefully, or at least nice pve sites) than for the scanning itself. Which is okay, but not so exciting that I want to spend hours on it everyday I play EVE, as I do currently. . |
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:01:00 -
[1021] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Singularity is coming online with an update in the next hour. Rather than address a bunch of individual points, please have another look on the server. (I'll update my OP to remove any known issues, and add the changes we have made)
There are quite a few points addressed already, with still many more to come.
start new threadnought you know it makes sense |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:07:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:"every prober" thats total bullshit, you maybe the cookie cutters aka 60%, but you just pulled that out of your ar*e, probes and probing to those that do it daily relies on personal preference, confirming unwanted known sigs and removing them, that is not done with a super probe or from the centre.
All this abortive attempt shows is they want to reinvent from scratch instead of upgrade and refine using existing known reliable systems, they don-¦t explore they play at it sometimes and only at a rookie or basic level as they do not have the time to invest at work or at home to be proficient in it and make isk.
they really are raging against those who took to the profession, which has become devalued due to over supply of rewards, and the increased competition who at low skill levels get ar*e mopped by elite players who have invested months in skills (which get thrown away and not compensated for), they cant get it to work so they are changing it to how they think they can work it and overlay some shiny shiny to keep the morons happy.
Ok maybe I shouldn't have said "everyone". But certainly your pov isn't representative of everyone either. I spend maybe ~70% of my play time scanning and have probed down 1500 signatures in the last 3 months alone (yes I use a tool that counts this automatically :p). So I'm not a casual scanner I think. The new system is *not* reinventing anything from scratch, scanning still works the same in principle. It just becomes faster for everyone, which means that a bad scanner will be faster than now, but a good scanner will be even faster than the bad scanner. And I love this change. Because while I love scouting and exploration, it is more for what I will find (pvp hopefully, or at least nice pve sites) than for the scanning itself. Which is okay, but not so exciting that I want to spend hours on it everyday I play EVE, as I do currently.
You use a tool !!!!!!!!., and count how many, oh do you register what type in a database, correlate it with system/constellation/region and have worked out the spawn algorithm?
It is A Super Probe in everything but name, if you cannot see that no wonder you need a tool.
scanning is the on-board that everyone can use to get low lvl ded sites, probing is where reward for effort comes in, so yeah, not even a moron does it for just fun. |
hfo df
Ramm's RDI Tactical Narcotics Team
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:34:00 -
[1023] - Quote
If i only have 7 probes (but skill for 8) i cant launch my probes atm? Edit: i meant via the formation button. Oh cool, the copy paste button is in there. edit 3: doesnt yet work though? Edit 2: they launch at the sun, iso where i'm at if you hit scan after launching. |
Platypi
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:49:00 -
[1024] - Quote
I spent 4-5 hours probing stuff down yesterday on SiSi, and I have the following feedback:
-I find the constant sensor sweep graphic distracting and borderline annoying. It's fine the one time when you first undock or enter a system. However, I feel like once it's discovered the anomalies and signatures in the system, there should be an option to just show those icons in space, rather than have the sensor sweep effect constantly swinging by.
-The icons for Cosmic Signatures should move in space as you scan them down. The icons should turn green in space once they're scanned to 100%.
-It's already been said in this thread/forum, but 100% scanned sites should be remembered as you scan other stuff.
This is the big one I'd like to see:
-I'd like to see somewhere on my fitting window or character sheet what my current stats are for scanning. Scan time, scan res, deviation. With the addition of modules that affect those numbers, in addition to my skills and implants, it'd be really helpful knowing where I'm at so I can improve them. Can I do the math the old fashion way? Yes. But while we're making scanning/probing more user-friendly, I think this change would help more people understand what's going on. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
387
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:01:00 -
[1025] - Quote
After the very recent update on Sisi, here is my feedback :
Nice new probes formations of eight probes ! Pinpoint is better, Spread no longer has holes in the area covered !
One problem though, the colums need to be resizable manually. Currently, you need to expand the size of the scanning window way too much compared to what should be requiered, if you want to read the full signature name (aka type). While other columns, expanded equally, are full of empty space. G££ <= Me |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1467
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:02:00 -
[1026] - Quote
As of this morning's update:
You can launch 8 probes now, but you have to have 8 probes to launch at all.
The result list remembers 100% finds, but at least with wormholes, you can't right click warp to. The signal strength stays at 100%, and doesn't change to the warp to button.
Still can't resize the columns.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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CCP Paradox
856
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:06:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:As of this morning's update:
You can launch 8 probes now, but you have to have 8 probes to launch at all.
The result list remembers 100% finds, but at least with wormholes, you can't right click warp to. The signal strength stays at 100%, and doesn't change to the warp to button.
Still can't resize the columns.
When you got a 100% result, did you check to see if you were right next to the wormhole? If you can't warp to it, you can't warp to it. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Rammix
FreeWorkers
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:52:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Platypi wrote:I'd like to see somewhere on my fitting window or character sheet what my current stats are for scanning. Scan time, scan res, deviation. Open your fitting window, open from there your probe launcher info window. Lurk there. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1467
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:02:00 -
[1029] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:As of this morning's update:
You can launch 8 probes now, but you have to have 8 probes to launch at all.
The result list remembers 100% finds, but at least with wormholes, you can't right click warp to. The signal strength stays at 100%, and doesn't change to the warp to button.
Still can't resize the columns.
When you got a 100% result, did you check to see if you were right next to the wormhole? If you can't warp to it, you can't warp to it.
Didn't believe I was, but can't prove it one way or another now :P I'll have to try again tomorrow after DT to see if it's a wormhole thing or I was next to the hole.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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CCP Paradox
856
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:10:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:As of this morning's update:
You can launch 8 probes now, but you have to have 8 probes to launch at all.
The result list remembers 100% finds, but at least with wormholes, you can't right click warp to. The signal strength stays at 100%, and doesn't change to the warp to button.
Still can't resize the columns.
When you got a 100% result, did you check to see if you were right next to the wormhole? If you can't warp to it, you can't warp to it. Didn't believe I was, but can't prove it one way or another now :P I'll have to try again tomorrow after DT to see if it's a wormhole thing or I was next to the hole.
Please do, I haven't been able to reproduce. And as a reminder, if you ever see something strange like this hit F12, and report bug. That way you can take a screenshot too, upload and send the evidence to me :) CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:46:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Scanner Window:
TIMER, TIMER, TIMER, TIMER. (Reducing the size of the filter drop down box and putting it on the same line seems to be the best option if you haven-¦t figured it out yet) Make columns adjustable. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Stop the annoy splash as you scroll to unseen results, its cool but annoying it will become after a year or so. Kill the warp to button, it is not necessary, yes it makes it easy, but easy is how you make mistakes and lose ships. Signal columns gives warp to button after a scroll up/down, so two warp too buttons !!! Using on board scanner should give all the results displayed by the overlay scanner on entry scan, not to do so implies a broken system, the data was collected so why is it not displayed? Make a space between destroy probes and re-connect to probes, same distance as scan and recover should do it.
Scanner window, probes in use with Map view open:
Noticed probe 8 is 6th on the list on launch. Is the list icon really required? Launch spread get 16 AU default range, scan and find 3 sigs from 0.4 au to 9, resizing probes to 8Au using all rows selected in the scanner window by rh click changes the range but the formation does not move to give an overlap, and scanning reflect this. Resizing by dragging blue sphere edge does move them, old code had them linked, so you wrote new code base without reference to old it seems. Scan range does not update as you do it in scanner window only on activation of scan Selecting in scanner top window is not persistent, IT SHOULD BE PERSISTENT as it is presently. Pinpoint formation selection still goes to default 4 Au, it should stay at the currently selected range for ease of use. Again pinpoint does not adjust if you use the selected columns rh click method of resizing.
It seems to be totally reliant on using the mouse in the map window to do every thing, doing this makes its so simple to get a hit with what is essentially a single probe object as you do not have to split them at all.
The Probes:
In all honesty the formation launch and movement is HAVING ONE SUPER PROBE
Give a single launch option or change the launcher so 8 probes count as one set (as it works as a single entity by default) and we can have a capacity of several sets loaded., makes sense as your trying to make it easier.
On probe strength, currently with the same ship i use on Tranquillity (Rapier) in Sisi i have fitted all three new mods and get same strenght (actually slightly less). when i off line the mods the probe strength etc stays the same, as it does when i on-line them (all in space btw), so mods are not modifying probes or they are and fitting/info are not yet linked?
CCP better start calling this pseudo Super Probe a Probe Set and have launch options for single probe deployment as many people deploy singles and need flexibility when hunting for PvP.
The best option in my very humble opinion is to have combat probes launch as single probes and Core probes to launch as a set, this gives CCP an easy way out code wise, keeps PvP hunters happy and allows the new easy find super probe system to open up the game to all and sundry with ease if ccp use that idea, i'll be amazed as its the simple and logical one |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:27:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Yes! Got the 8th probe back . Still would like to see the probe lifetime and km distances. One other thing that bugs me is that the probes keep de-selecting themselves in the scanner pane.
Brainless Bimbo wrote: The best option in my very humble opinion is to have combat probes launch as single probes and Core probes to launch as a set, this gives CCP an easy way out code wise, keeps PvP hunters happy and allows the new easy find super probe system to open up the game to all and sundry with ease
This is easy to work around. Simply move all probes off system grid, deactivate all but one (or as many as you need) probe(s), then do your thing. Or recall all but one or as many as you need. Just my $.02.
Edit: Also love the "new" short cuts : ). No more alt + shift. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:33:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Haseo Antares wrote:Yes! Got the 8th probe back . Still would like to see the probe lifetime and km distances. One other thing that bugs me is that the probes keep de-selecting themselves in the scanner pane. Brainless Bimbo wrote: The best option in my very humble opinion is to have combat probes launch as single probes and Core probes to launch as a set, this gives CCP an easy way out code wise, keeps PvP hunters happy and allows the new easy find super probe system to open up the game to all and sundry with ease
This is easy to work around. Simply move all probes off system grid, deactivate all but one (or as many as you need) probe(s), then do your thing. Or recall all but one or as many as you need. Just my $.02.
That is more work and very cumbersome, Ody is meant to be making probing more accessible: Combats and Cores have different uses and difference masses therefore such a solution would make sense. |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:39:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Haseo Antares wrote:Yes! Got the 8th probe back . Still would like to see the probe lifetime and km distances. One other thing that bugs me is that the probes keep de-selecting themselves in the scanner pane. Brainless Bimbo wrote: The best option in my very humble opinion is to have combat probes launch as single probes and Core probes to launch as a set, this gives CCP an easy way out code wise, keeps PvP hunters happy and allows the new easy find super probe system to open up the game to all and sundry with ease
This is easy to work around. Simply move all probes off system grid, deactivate all but one (or as many as you need) probe(s), then do your thing. Or recall all but one or as many as you need. Just my $.02. That is more work and very cumbersome, Ody is meant to be making probing more accessible: Combats and Cores have different uses therefore such a solution would make sense.
I don't think CCP made any of these changes with PvP in mind. They want to make PvE exploration more "accessible" (I don't agree with this term but I'll go with it) to help retain new frustrated players. Besides cant make things to easy...easy is boring imo. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:47:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Haseo Antares wrote:
I don't think CCP made any of these changes with PvP in mind. They want to make PvE exploration more "accessible" (I don't agree with this term but I'll go with it) to help retain new frustrated players. Besides cant make things to easy...easy is boring imo.
The new frustrated players are here because CCP has tried to change the demographics of the player base, they are now changing the game to a more friendly but shorter term game, its all shiny and shallowness, its loosing depth.
And ONE SUPER PROBE a.k.a. the formations, is EASY, times EASY-¦.
Combats as singles and cores as sets, keeps both sides happy as they will get in Ody. |
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:49:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Haseo Antares wrote:
I don't think CCP made any of these changes with PvP in mind. They want to make PvE exploration more "accessible" (I don't agree with this term but I'll go with it) to help retain new frustrated players. Besides cant make things to easy...easy is boring imo.
The new frustrated players are here because CCP has tried to change the demographics of the player base, they are now changing the game to a more friendly but shorter term game, its all shiny and shallowness, its loosing depth. And ONE SUPER PROBE a.k.a. the formations, is EASY, times EASY-¦. Combats as singles and cores as sets, keeps both sides happy as they will get in Ody.
If CCP takes up your idea then great. If not we gotta adapt somehow. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:18:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Haseo Antares wrote:
I don't think CCP made any of these changes with PvP in mind. They want to make PvE exploration more "accessible" (I don't agree with this term but I'll go with it) to help retain new frustrated players. Besides cant make things to easy...easy is boring imo.
The new frustrated players are here because CCP has tried to change the demographics of the player base, they are now changing the game to a more friendly but shorter term game, its all shiny and shallowness, its loosing depth. And ONE SUPER PROBE a.k.a. the formations, is EASY, times EASY-¦. Combats as singles and cores as sets, keeps both sides happy as they will get in Ody.
you seem forget that all we asked for was player defined launch patterns. and yes that applies to combats.
otherwise i agree with you. |
Ammzi
Boob Heads Test Alliance Please Ignore
1351
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:20:00 -
[1038] - Quote
The continuous "color bar filling" when you scroll down the scan list is cool - however, it doesn't remember the ones it has filled and as such if you keep scrolling up and down, up and down, it will keep filling up bars that have already been "loaded". This gets really annoying with time when there's a lot of scrolling involved :/ quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
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CCP Paradox
856
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:26:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:The continuous "color bar filling" when you scroll down the scan list is cool - however, it doesn't remember the ones it has filled and as such if you keep scrolling up and down, up and down, it will keep filling up bars that have already been "loaded". This gets really annoying with time when there's a lot of scrolling involved :/
Current bug with the window is scrolling lists, you will notice some duplication and stuff going on. Should be resolved by the next build. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Zerb Arus
WormSpaceWormS Galactic Skyfleet Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:53:00 -
[1040] - Quote
CCP Devs seem to think in 2D. The 3D space-coverage of the "spread formation" for the scanner-probes is a joke. And as many others I was under the impression that "probe formations" entailed the ability to save one's elaborate formations.
As it stands now we are basically back to the single-probe mechanic from 3 versions ago (minus some randomness) |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1031
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:10:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Today on the test server Combat Scanning Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1031
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:12:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Is it not possible to create a option in the scanner settings for formations that launches an indicated number of probes, ranging from 4 to 8. I still feel the astrometrics skill is OP with what it offers. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:19:00 -
[1043] - Quote
We may have wanted the 8th probe back but not sure we really want to launch them all together as is now the case on SIsi. My ship is located in a wormhole so trying to find another probe suddenly out of thin air just to test the new system was fun. Thank you to a corp mate for supplying one!
There is an issue with the scan results window that seems to come about if you first scan a system with Combat probes and then recall them and scan with Core probes (or the other way around). The results window is not updating with the correct information - you still get ships on the results when using core probes for the second scan or you don't get ships if you use combats for the second scan. Also the ability to sort the results by column gets stuck and you can only sort by distance and ID.
On a positive, I've now got so used to resizing and moving all the probes at once without having to hold down shift or alt that probing on TQ now seems very tedious. So a +1 for that change at least.
Still very much missing the full DSP functionality.
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Ling Gong Chen
ALL THE LONELY PEOPLE
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:11:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Thank god and CCP the hacking mechanism is finally complete!The analyzers are now online! And now we don't need to worry about leaving probes behind! The digital white pad problem had fixed! But there are still problems. Today I ran across many nullsec system to probe, and found out that all these data/relic site would not be erased from universe after someone finished them. Just before the DT I enter a system and probed out a relic site which was done by myself two hours ago. And after the hacking mini game the jetting containers are very difficult to pick up. There are two different jetting directions and the containers are flying a little bit too fast, and the icon of containers are too small, which make them very hard to be double clicked on. Once I failed to click on it I would start to accelerate to another direction and fly away from the containers. I hope that maybe CCP can add the "recover" or "collect" options in the right click options on these small little containers. There is one more thing. Even if I can pick up some of those containers, the loot of these containers are very unworthy. Indeed sometimes I could loot few worthy things like T2 BPC or blue salvage materials, but most of them are garbage such as data sheets, or metal scraps. These things make the relic/data sites become very unworthy. Certainly if we go to these sites with friends we may be able to pick up all the stuff but that also means solo hacking would be totally meaningless and I would dare to say that most of hackers are solo hackers. And we don't know what kinds of containers would give you something worthy so all we could do now is pick up all the containers as possible, but that's more like a draw. I believe most of us raise our analyzing skills for something solid and worthy, not a lottery. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:16:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Probing is now broken for me. The signals don't update in the Scanner. So its impossible to scan down any signatures. Jumped one system further and no signatures show up at all in the scanner. Even tho the scanner overlay shows me 3 unidentified sites. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:17:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote:We may have wanted the 8th probe back but not sure we really want to launch them all together as is now the case on SIsi.
Of course it's what we wanted, even if we didn't know it yet. Push buttan, vomit probes.
Honestly, I have all ideas that this has been done because it's now impossible for the launcher to actually discharge only one probe. The horrible workaround provided by CCP Devs in this thread makes me believe this very strongly.
'Launch them and get rid of the ones you don't need.'
I have a feeling that the launch operation of the probe launcher is now hard coded into the preset formation system, in such a fashion that they would have to create a new, separate 'Single Probe' preset in order to do it. Which would mean you'd need a two, three, four, etc. preset, all the way up to maximum, in order to launch less than a full load of probes. Hopefully this can be changed in the next two weeks, because if it is not, then it likely never will be.
This is what happens when the 'exploration focused' expansion revolves mainly around tiericide, radial menus, minigames, session change transitions, and a semi-annoying windshield wiper graphic effect. Lots of nice eyecandy, but the actual mechanic by which exploration is done seems to have taken a backseat, and this poorly researched, planned, and implemented job is what resulted. It could have been so much better, so much more user friendly. I hate to sound bitter, because it seems like the direction they wanted to go had promise, but the way they did it fell far short, and damaged current game play as a result. In the furor to make the system more accessible to beginners, they have gutted advanced features enjoyed by people that use the system to it fullest.
EVE is apparently supposed to be about doing it your way. I realize it means work for the systems team, but why is there no option for a 'Basic' and 'Advanced' system? For casual missioners and regular explorers who want to pick up a DED plex or two, or run hacking or arch sites quickly, let them use the Basic system. Lauch all, find your stuff, and go. For combat pilots, wormholers, and people who simply like to use the system to its fullest, let them select Advanced, and exert control over their own equipment. This was done with the highsec noob safety, and it should also be done with the probing system. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:03:00 -
[1047] - Quote
you say over lap is now working, NO ITS NOT if you change range from scanner window. they do not move.
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Ammzi
Boob Heads Test Alliance Please Ignore
1351
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:21:00 -
[1048] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Ammzi wrote:The continuous "color bar filling" when you scroll down the scan list is cool - however, it doesn't remember the ones it has filled and as such if you keep scrolling up and down, up and down, it will keep filling up bars that have already been "loaded". This gets really annoying with time when there's a lot of scrolling involved :/ Current bug with the window is scrolling lists, you will notice some duplication and stuff going on. Should be resolved by the next build.
That sounds great. Are there plans to add timers, such as ~Countdown till scan finished~ and ~TIME TO LIVE~ on the probes? quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1306
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:30:00 -
[1049] - Quote
1. Just trained up one of my mains to Astro 5 specifically to use DSPs... now that I wasted that 3 weeks, what exactly is the benefit anymore? And don't say something inane like "5% better deviation!" 2. I find sites perfectly find and quickly with four probes... why the f**k must I now manage 7 probes? Not 5, not 6, not 8, but 7...
Sorry, this has go to be yet another inane update to a system that wasn't broken (just like the STUPID mini-game inside exploration). "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
|
CCP Paradox
858
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:50:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:1. Just trained up one of my mains to Astro 5 specifically to use DSPs... now that I wasted that 3 weeks, what exactly is the benefit anymore? And don't say something inane like "5% better deviation!" 2. I find sites perfectly find and quickly with four probes... why the f**k must I now manage 7 probes? Not 5, not 6, not 8, but 7...
Sorry, this has go to be yet another inane update to a system that wasn't broken (just like the STUPID mini-game inside exploration).
7? You haven't tested out the changes have you. :)
(hint, you have 8 probes) CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1467
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:55:00 -
[1051] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:1. Just trained up one of my mains to Astro 5 specifically to use DSPs... now that I wasted that 3 weeks, what exactly is the benefit anymore? And don't say something inane like "5% better deviation!" 2. I find sites perfectly find and quickly with four probes... why the f**k must I now manage 7 probes? Not 5, not 6, not 8, but 7...
Sorry, this has go to be yet another inane update to a system that wasn't broken (just like the STUPID mini-game inside exploration). 7? You haven't tested out the changes have you. :) (hint, you have 8 probes)
Unless you only had < 8 probes on you, then you can't launch any.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 19:10:00 -
[1052] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:1. Just trained up one of my mains to Astro 5 specifically to use DSPs... now that I wasted that 3 weeks, what exactly is the benefit anymore? And don't say something inane like "5% better deviation!" 2. I find sites perfectly find and quickly with four probes... why the f**k must I now manage 7 probes? Not 5, not 6, not 8, but 7...
Sorry, this has go to be yet another inane update to a system that wasn't broken (just like the STUPID mini-game inside exploration). 7? You haven't tested out the changes have you. :) (hint, you have 8 probes)
seriously CCP Paradox, if you force the launch of 8 probes and they all move as one and resize as one, then why have 8 probes at all, just do all your new probing magic with one probe, because that is basically what you are building here, a one probe does all solution. (obviously I don't want this, i am just saying this is basically what you are building)
we continue to plea that you not destroy the current probing system (which no one was complaining about) with this new system. what i want to know is - is it even worth any of our time to even bother anymore? do you take any of the awesome posts in this thread that defend the current system into consideration at all? will you?
|
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 19:30:00 -
[1053] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:1. Just trained up one of my mains to Astro 5 specifically to use DSPs... now that I wasted that 3 weeks, what exactly is the benefit anymore? And don't say something inane like "5% better deviation!" 2. I find sites perfectly find and quickly with four probes... why the f**k must I now manage 7 probes? Not 5, not 6, not 8, but 7...
Sorry, this has go to be yet another inane update to a system that wasn't broken (just like the STUPID mini-game inside exploration). 7? You haven't tested out the changes have you. :) (hint, you have 8 probes)
Paradox missing the point and being fairly rude to a paying customer to boot. Not to mention the 'all those who used the DSP for years have effectively been cheating' post.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 20:21:00 -
[1054] - Quote
So the T2 scanning modules now require the corresponding skill at level V GÇô so much for the secondary skills now being useless I like it.
Also their effect was greatly reduced, the pinpointing module now grants -25% deviation instead of -40%. Probably reasonable. . |
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 20:38:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Is the reconnect to lost probes function defunct now they auto recall INSTANTLY on jump?
If you change ships in space and then go back again you can reconnect to probes. They don't instant recall in this instance.
A corp friend tells me that probes also don't instant recall if you jump from wormhole to wormhole with extra probes in the launcher. He didn't say whether you could reconnect to them though.
|
Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
240
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 20:41:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Any feedback on the magically reappearing probes thing? I skimmed the Dev posts and reread the OP but probes have still been possessed by magical powers allowing them to instantly teleport to the cargo hold. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
103
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:16:00 -
[1057] - Quote
CCP completely missed the point with the new 8-probe formations.
Players: "WTF CCP, why can't I scan with fewer than 7 probes? 4 probes is enough to scan down a WH, I should be able to use only 4 probes if I only have 4 so I'm not stuck in a system. I also liked being able to use 8 probes when I wanted." CCP: "Okay, you can now only use 8 probes! :trollface:"
If for some reason I only have four probes on me, I should be allowed to use them.
Seriously, it was better before. The 8-probe "pinpoint" formation is an ugly mess and adds absolutely nothing over the previous 7 point formation. The "spread" formation at least no longer has giant gaps.
Nobody asked to use 8 probes in a single formation. People wanted the ability to launch 8 probes so they could run two simultaneous 4-probe formations, or a DSP and a 7-probe formation.
The fix would've been simple: Make the launcher, if clicked on, drop only a single probe, up to a maximum of 8 probes in space. Keep a 7-probe pinpoint formation button on the scan UI, and a 7- or 8- probe spread formation. Only launch probes into a formation if you click that button. |
M'aak'han
C-7
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:17:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Yes, I'd like to know too if the probes teleporting back in the cargo is a defect or a feature.
|
Space Wanderer
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:17:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Ok, new changes on SISI tested. Many bugs fixed. Here is feedback.
Discovery Scanner
I am not sure I like the orange for anomalies and red for signatures. I think that green for anomalies was better, while having signatures ranging from light orange to deep red, according to the intensity of the signature.
Scanning interface
1) The list of results still needs a bit of work. Adjustable columns and font fitting. 2) Launching 8 probes is good. Being forced to launch 8 probes is bad. 3) We still need one or two customizable formations. Is it really so difficult? Honestly I thought it wasn't that hard.
Cosmic Signatures
While travelliing through highsec (about 20 systems) I could find very few signatures and NONE of them was lower than 7%. Before I could see several 1%. What gives?
Module balance
First of all, prerequisites for T2 modules is relative skill at 5. Good.
Now, about each module: 1) Only one acquisition module can be used. Min acquisition time (excpet for implants) is about 4.5 secs. Less than the 5 secs you can have now, but not much less. I think it could be considered balanced. 2) Pinpointing modules have been nerfed, but definitely not enough. I still can drop range from 8AU directly to 0.25 without losing contact. More balance is required. 3) Rangefinding modules suffer of stacking penalty not only between each other, but also with rigs and t2/sister launcher (but not with sister's probes), but offer a better bonus than them. It is still seem possible to use them to find previously "unprobable" ships without needing virtue implants. (disclaimer: i couldn't test in this build if the cap has been removed/changed) This probably needs to be changed. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:40:00 -
[1060] - Quote
I just found a 1% sig in k-space so they are not gone.
Maybe we should have a slider for how many probes to launch, and if it is less than seven, the formations are not available, instead the launched probes will just sit all in one spot. (I assume it would be hard to make sensible formations for any possible number of probes launched.)
Personally I have no problem with the 8-or-nothing. Previously you were screwed if you only had 3 or less probes with you, now that number has changed to 8. No difference at all. Just bring always at least 20 probes, there is no reason at all to fly with less. Ever.
Chris Winter wrote:Nobody asked to use 8 probes in a single formation. People wanted the ability to launch 8 probes so they could run two simultaneous 4-probe formations, or a DSP and a 7-probe formation. Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation. . |
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:53:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be?
I'll await your list of probing superstars. |
Sulvorati Kunoki
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:58:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I just found a 1% sig in k-space so they are not gone. Maybe we should have a slider for how many probes to launch, and if it is less than seven, the formations are not available, instead the launched probes will just sit all in one spot. (I assume it would be hard to make sensible formations for any possible number of probes launched.) Personally I have no problem with the 8-or-nothing. Previously you were screwed if you only had 3 or less probes with you, now that number has changed to 8. No difference at all. Just bring always at least 20 probes, there is no reason at all to fly with less. Ever. Chris Winter wrote:Nobody asked to use 8 probes in a single formation. People wanted the ability to launch 8 probes so they could run two simultaneous 4-probe formations, or a DSP and a 7-probe formation. Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
I have no problem scanning everything with 5 probes on TQ and I'm pretty f''ing hot at it due to practice over three or four years. I am talking about pve scanning in a wormhole here. The people who are using 8 probes are doing different pvp related things i imagine.
I have today experienced the suddenly having to use ONLY 8 probes when i only had 7 with me in wormhole space. If this goes live on TQ on Jun 4th then everyone in wormhole space needs to have 8 probes given to them or anyone with less is going to be insta-stuck!
If you can only launch a certain number (8 currently) then it is really a scan probe pack and you don't need individual probes at all - more so if they insta-recall and can't be destroyed.
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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1445
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:01:00 -
[1063] - Quote
M'aak'han wrote:Yes, I'd like to know too if the probes teleporting back in the cargo is a defect or a feature.
From what was said it sounds like a feature. I guess CCP doesn't realize that people actually have unique tactics when it comes to probing, or they don't like said tactics.
Domanique Altares wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be? I'll await your list of probing superstars.
I'am guessing he was being sarcastic. Improving NPE |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:21:00 -
[1064] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:1. Just trained up one of my mains to Astro 5 specifically to use DSPs... now that I wasted that 3 weeks, what exactly is the benefit anymore? And don't say something inane like "5% better deviation!" 2. I find sites perfectly find and quickly with four probes... why the f**k must I now manage 7 probes? Not 5, not 6, not 8, but 7...
Sorry, this has go to be yet another inane update to a system that wasn't broken (just like the STUPID mini-game inside exploration). 7? You haven't tested out the changes have you. :) (hint, you have 8 probes)
everybody with astrometrics at ONE, launch is by default EIGHT that inculdes a 1 min old rookie, so answer his whats the point of astro 5
and the changes, a chimp could be taught to get a 100% hit in 3 moves with only using the mouse.
honestly Paradox look at your self and shudder |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5101
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:28:00 -
[1065] - Quote
There needs to be an option to launch single probes by activating the launcher. You should only dump 8 probes instantly by clicking one of the preset formations. This is a must.
Telling players to launch 8 and deactivate four, for example, is a workaround for shoddy coding, not a solution.
Brainless Bimbo wrote:everybody with astrometrics at ONE, launch is by default EIGHT that inculdes a 1 min old rookie, so answer his whats the point of astro 5
and the changes, a chimp could be taught to get a 100% hit in 3 moves with only using the mouse.
honestly Paradox look at your self and shudder What's the point of astrometrics 5? The skill bonuses, obviously. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1446
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:28:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
everybody with astrometrics at ONE, launch is by default EIGHT that inculdes a 1 min old rookie, so answer his whats the point of astro 5
and the changes, a chimp could be taught to get a 100% hit in 3 moves with only using the mouse.
honestly Paradox look at your self and shudder
Astrometrics skill no longer is about amount of probes launched.
Skill at operating long range scanners.
+5% scan strength per level.
-5% max scan deviation per level.
-5% scan probe scan time per level.
The 2nd part I do agree with.
Improving NPE |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:29:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Sulvorati Kunoki wrote: I have no problem scanning everything with 5 probes on TQ and I'm pretty f''ing hot at it due to practice over three or four years. I am talking about pve scanning in a wormhole here. The people who are using 8 probes are doing different pvp related things i imagine.
Nope. You may think you are fast but you are not, if you only use 5 probes. While you may achieve similar speed in resolving a single signature, you will definitely need more time sweeping an entire system with ~5 or more sigs if you do not use 8 or at least 7 probes. This is a fact, because with 5 probes you cannot cover enough space and need to upsize your probes after almost every resolved signature to find the next one, then downsize again to pin it down.
With the new system where all probes are started at once, using 8 will be even more superior because it does not take more time to launch the additional probes and set them up, which currently can make using 8 probes inefficient if there are only very few sigs in the system (for example, if I just want to scan the new static after the old one has despawned or was rolled, I often use only 5 probes as well.)
It is true however that those who only used 5 or even 4 probes (lol) should be allowed to continue their inefficient ways so we good probers can rightfully feel that we are superior players. I don't want everyone to be forced to be good, people have a right to suck at EVE.
. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:32:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really, where do they live?, what are they looking for?, do they make a living by exploration alone?, why do you consider them the best?, are you comparing them to your attempts?,
Are you confusing throwing every and the sink at the problem instead of using brain power and deductive skills to get the hit? |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:34:00 -
[1069] - Quote
The exploration tutorial agent mission is broken
cannot access the date training site with civilian data analysor, and cant find and proof of data site |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:36:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:
everybody with astrometrics at ONE, launch is by default EIGHT that inculdes a 1 min old rookie, so answer his whats the point of astro 5
and the changes, a chimp could be taught to get a 100% hit in 3 moves with only using the mouse.
honestly Paradox look at your self and shudder
Astrometrics skill no longer is about amount of probes launched. Skill at operating long range scanners. +5% scan strength per level. -5% max scan deviation per level. -5% scan probe scan time per level. The 2nd part I do agree with. and that will will also now be achieved by fitting a mod, the other moveable deployable in game, drones, required lvl-¦s for more in space and you get mods to add to those skill based functions. |
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Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
294
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:38:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be? I'll await your list of probing superstars.
Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time. |
M'aak'han
C-7
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:43:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:M'aak'han wrote:Yes, I'd like to know too if the probes teleporting back in the cargo is a defect or a feature.
From what was said it sounds like a feature. I guess CCP doesn't realize that people actually have unique tactics when it comes to probing, or they don't like said tactics.
*screams of rage* Wait... No one can hear me scream in space. Gah !! |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:48:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be? I'll await your list of probing superstars. Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time.
That-¦s with skills where you get many hits, personally with competition being as it is, i find the extra probes go to those other hits as place holders for quicker discovery while narrowing them down at the same time, only 5 are needed to pinpoint the target.
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1031
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:54:00 -
[1074] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:What's the point of astrometrics 5? The skill bonuses, obviously. Except Astrometrics 4 is enough to scan down any exploration site, with any ship a T1 launcher and standard core scanner probes. For Combat scanning astrometrics 4 in a Cov-Ops ship will do the trick. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
104
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 23:18:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be? I'll await your list of probing superstars. Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time. And the 8-probe formations they gave us don't do that. |
pierre arthos
Aperture Harmonics K162
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 23:21:00 -
[1076] - Quote
When are the subsysytems for scanning T3's being rebalanced, so that anything other than an armour Loki is actually worth using as a scanning ship again? With the new midslot modules, you have basically made 3 out of 4 ships absolutely useless in this role. With one easy stroke, you have made it much more difficult to probe down, tackle and tank people. This will reduce w-hole pvp and fun for hundreds if not thousands of players.You guys really are experts at dropping the ball, aren't you? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5101
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 00:07:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:What's the point of astrometrics 5? The skill bonuses, obviously. Except Astrometrics 4 is enough to scan down any exploration site, with any ship a T1 launcher and standard core scanner probes. For Combat scanning astrometrics 4 in a Cov-Ops ship will do the trick. And Astrometrics 5 will help you do it faster, with more accuracy. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 00:52:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Thanks for putting all the stuff you took out back in, but I still can't right click warp to 100% probed ships on grid.
http://i.imgur.com/2FkIDvD.jpg Confederation of xXPIZZAXx CEO Watch PIZZA Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/LunchSquad |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
148
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 01:51:00 -
[1079] - Quote
As I do not have Singularity set up on my computer, I have not partaken of the opportunity to test this new probing system. But what I am reading her is somewhat distressing. We MUST launch 8 probes? Why? As pointed out above, what is the difference between "8 required probes" and "one single probe". It's effectively the same thing. And it's not a good change.
I think what most people wanted when they asked for "probe formations" is the option of being able to use them. Not being forced to use them. I think most people were envisioning launching their probes, selecting some with the checkboxes, and then clicking a "formation button" - optimized for 4,5,6,7, or 8 probes. Or they could choose not to, and go about using their probes how they please. Kinda leaves the choice up to the pilot.
I understand that this is meant to help make probing easier for the novice. Which is nice and all. However, it shouldn't be done at the expense of versatility (efficient or not) used by more experienced players. That's taking away part of the sandbox nature of the game and leads to cries of "dumbing down" which may or may not be correct. A feature should be optional, not mandated.
P.S. - Plus this whole "auto-recover probes". If you can't lose your probes, why even bother having them? Just roll the cost into the module. Make it a module that just lets you move a magic probing dot around on the map. Cuz that's pretty much all it seems to be now. Hopefully I am completely wrong about all of this, and merely a victim of sensationalist kneejerk reactions on the forums.... but I doubt it. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:13:00 -
[1080] - Quote
in the new build, 8 probes require to launch them,
after you launch 8, you can call one back, but you cant launch it back until you recover 2 probe and left 6 outside
02:05:46NotifyYou cannot launch Combat Scanner Probe I because you are already controlling 7 probes, as much as you have skill to.
1. 8 core probe out 2. recover one, cannot launch it back 3. recover one more, then you can launch 2 (combat) out
but now you being handicap if you want 7 + 1 probes out,
4. recover one combat probe, cannot launch core probe , the notification said you max 7 probes 5. recover one more combat probe, then you can launch 2 core probe back,
second thing is, now it's quite hard to get a octahedron formation as the probe arrange with some angle between them |
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Soulpirate
Bedrock Industrial
278
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 03:18:00 -
[1081] - Quote
The T2 mods need to have 'Astrometrics V' as a requirement. |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 03:43:00 -
[1082] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:[(hint, you have 8 probes)
Hint, you wouldn't have had everyone mad and would have saved yourself time if you ran your ideas by the CSM and got feedback from actual players.
James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Inepsa1987
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 03:57:00 -
[1083] - Quote
Why are you forcing 8 probes? Is there a new technical limitation? What about all those pilots that carry only 5 probes with them, what do they do on release?
Probes insta returning is dumb, losing your probes should be a lesson learned. Why are you even changing this?
On the flip side I like the formations, well the pinpoint one
Spaceship Pilot. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 05:26:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be? I'll await your list of probing superstars. Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time.
I don't think you read what he said closely enough before agreeing with it.
I use 8 probes on my scanning alt in two groups of four to do exactly what you're talking about.
He says 'all the best' use 8, but only in a single formation, IE, just like it is right now on SiSi. |
Zeradn
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 05:37:00 -
[1085] - Quote
It seems a lot of the people who were whining here were doing so without actually testing in SiSi. I welcome the skill changes. Now, we don't have to train Range-finding or pinpointing to 5. If we are ready to lose 5% in scan deviation and probe strength, we can leave those at 4 and save nearly 50 days of training (This will irritate some guys who already did it). Add to that the new T1 scanning modules, and you will be probing down 1% signal strength sites in a Drake.
The new system does make probing unbelievably easier and faster. If you use the scanner overlay with the new instant probe formations, you can probe down a signal some 20 mouse clicks faster. It does take some monotony out of probing some 20 systems in a row for a good site on a bad day. On a good day, you will be left smiling without realizing it while you probe down sites within half a minute of it spawning. As this makes things easier for newbies also, the veterans will naturally grudge it. And all this talk of 'This is EVE' is a natural outburst from them.
I support completely the demand for the feature where only a single probe is launched when you click the launcher manually. Also all the probes launched thus should be centrally placed overlapping each other. This will additionally help those who want custom probe formations.
If the mini-game is not improved before Odyssey launch on TQ (I expect it would be), a lot of us will have to give up on those sites. The new loot spew system up now on SiSi is impossibly frustrating. Those who have tried it will know what I am talking about. If they are planning to completely remove the triggered NPC spawns at these sites or limit those to frigs or destroyers, we could use frigs ourselves to make grabbing those spews more easier. But without reducing the collision level, everything becomes frustratingly hopeless (Also, you are inside one of those structures - hostile pops up in D-Scan - you try to align to celestial/safe - you realize you can't due to collidable objects - you frantically try to get out of it to align - hostile lands on grid, points you and pop you). |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 08:40:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Zeradn wrote:It seems a lot of the people who were whining here were doing so without actually testing in SiSi. I welcome the skill changes. Now, we don't have to train Range-finding or pinpointing to 5. If we are ready to lose 5% in scan deviation and probe strength, we can leave those at 4 and save nearly 50 days of training (This will irritate some guys who already did it). Add to that the new T1 scanning modules, and you will be probing down 1% signal strength sites in a Drake.
The new system does make probing unbelievably easier and faster. If you use the scanner overlay with the new instant probe formations, you can probe down a signal some 20 mouse clicks faster. It does take some monotony out of probing some 20 systems in a row for a good site on a bad day. On a good day, you will be left smiling without realizing it while you probe down sites within half a minute of it spawning. As this makes things easier for newbies also, the veterans will naturally grudge it. And all this talk of 'This is EVE' is a natural outburst from them.
I support completely the demand for the feature where only a single probe is launched when you click the launcher manually. Also all the probes launched thus should be centrally placed overlapping each other. This will additionally help those who want custom probe formations.
If the mini-game is not improved before Odyssey launch on TQ (I expect it would be), a lot of us will have to give up on those sites. The new loot spew system up now on SiSi is impossibly frustrating. Those who have tried it will know what I am talking about. If they are planning to completely remove the triggered NPC spawns at these sites or limit those to frigs or destroyers, we could use frigs ourselves to make grabbing those spews more easier. But without reducing the collision level, everything becomes frustratingly hopeless (Also, you are inside one of those structures - hostile pops up in D-Scan - you try to align to celestial/safe - you realize you can't due to collidable objects - you frantically try to get out of it to align - hostile lands on grid, points you and pop you).
You still get a benefit to training them to 5, you need each specific skill to lvl 5 in order to fit the T2 scanning upgrade that accompanies it. EX: You need Rangefinding to 5 in orfer to fit a T2 Rangefinding Array |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
452
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 08:46:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:
I don't think you read what he said closely enough before agreeing with it.
I use 8 probes on my scanning alt in two groups of four to do exactly what you're talking about.
He says 'all the best' use 8, but only in a single formation, IE, just like it is right now on SiSi.
If you have two separate formations of four, you have to move them separately. You cannot even use the alt/shift key to move them all together. Which means you are horribly slow. Try for yourself and stop-clock the time you spend between scans on repositioning your probes. If it's more than five seconds maximum, you are really bad, mhkay? But please, keep on thinking that you are doing it right :) . |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
296
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 09:46:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.
Really. Who might they be? I'll await your list of probing superstars. Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time. I don't think you read what he said closely enough before agreeing with it. I use 8 probes on my scanning alt in two groups of four to do exactly what you're talking about. He says 'all the best' use 8, but only in a single formation, IE, just like it is right now on SiSi.
Actually, I consider that one formation. Two groups of four, but acting as one. Two formations would be 2 x 4 probes scanning two sites at once.
Anyway, tested the scanning a bit and I have to say, the current (8 probe) formations are HORRIBLE. I honestly just wish we'd get the old system back. Or at the very least, the probes should launch next to the ship and only move in a formation if the pilot chooses it explicitly. As it stands, it's a royal pain in the behind to get them ordered again. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
122
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 09:58:00 -
[1089] - Quote
Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5114
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 10:17:00 -
[1090] - Quote
Old launch system + option to use the new formations is what pretty much everyone wants.
Some things still need to be fixed, mainly: Ignoring one scan result causes all the other scan results to be highlighted, which means that if you right click and ignore on another scan result it ends up ignoring everything in the list. What's worse is that to undo this you have to show everything, clearing the ignore list, meaning you have to start all over again.
How to fix: After ignoring a scan result, nothing should be highlighted. If possible add some sort of undo feature.
-áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 10:20:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?
Lots of people use single probes all the time, you just live in over used/exploited areas of the universe. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1449
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 10:40:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?
^This
Remove preformed layouts, and allow for multiple probe launches. It's a good middle ground that reduces the amount of clicking, while not dumbing down probing in the process.
Which the "we want to reduce clicking" argument is comical to say the least. The changes seem to be geared towards PVE, which they remove clicking in probing, but then add a minigame that's all clicking and a pinata that's even more clicking. :CCPlogic:
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 10:54:00 -
[1093] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Durzel wrote:Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes? ^This Remove preformed layouts, and allow for multiple probe launches. It's a good middle ground that reduces the amount of clicking, while not dumbing down probing in the process. Which the "we want to reduce clicking" argument is comical to say the least. The changes seem to be geared towards PVE, which they remove clicking in probing, but then add a minigame that's all clicking and a pinata that's even more clicking. :CCPlogic: let em keep the pin point layout, its useful and any rookie will be able to get a 100% hit in 3 moves, the spread is an abortion as is the reversion to set default scan sizes.
The single probe launch is necessary for many tasks if you live way out where little probing goes on, its a way to get rid of what you bookmarked the day before and with out having to re-find the thing.
i suggested earlier, make all Core probes launch as a set of 8 a.k.a. the SUPER PROBE and increase mass of the set of 8 to to equal 1 Combat probe with single launch. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1450
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 11:03:00 -
[1094] - Quote
The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad. It makes probing way to easy, to where newbies who DO get into it will find it boring and move on, it goes both ways.
Doing single probe launches was something I missed, which I agree with completely. Switch the formations buttons to 2x and 4x and clicking on the launcher will launch 1 probe. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 11:10:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Durzel wrote:Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes? ^This Remove preformed layouts, and allow for multiple probe launches. It's a good middle ground that reduces the amount of clicking, while not dumbing down probing in the process. Which the "we want to reduce clicking" argument is comical to say the least. The changes seem to be geared towards PVE, which they remove clicking in probing, but then add a minigame that's all clicking and a pinata that's even more clicking. :CCPlogic: let em keep the pin point layout, its useful and any rookie will be able to get a 100% hit in 3 moves, the spread is an abortion as is the reversion to set default scan sizes. The single probe launch is necessary for many tasks if you live way out where little probing goes on, its a way to get rid of what you bookmarked the day before and with out having to re-find the thing. i suggested earlier, make all Core probes launch as a set of 8 a.k.a. the SUPER PROBE and increase mass of the set of 8 to to equal 1 Combat probe with single launch. If the sig IDs have changed how are you going to know to a certainty which sigs are which?
I don't know about other wormhole corps but we update sig IDs when they change, so that new signatures are obvious to anyone who is scanning at any time, without them having had to have scanned down everything to 100%.
I figured single probe launches were only useful for what is going to be defunct - scanning the whole system with DSP or whatever to know the strengths of all the sigs in the system? (defunct because DSPs are going, and auto-scanner replicates seeing all sigs) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5114
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 11:14:00 -
[1096] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad. Except that that's absolutely just rhetoric and nothing else. I'm not terribly faster with this new system than I was with the old one. Granted then I was using 5 probes and now I'm using 8, but the only real difference in time comes from the reduction of clicks. I was a very slow prober before and I still am a slow prober. And I usually don't get it in 3 moves. It typically takes me at least 6. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1450
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 11:20:00 -
[1097] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad. Except that that's absolutely just rhetoric and nothing else. I'm not terribly faster with this new system than I was with the old one. Granted then I was using 5 probes and now I'm using 8, but the only real difference in time comes from the reduction of clicks. I was a very slow prober before and I still am a slow prober. And I usually don't get it in 3 moves. It typically takes me at least 6.
Regardless of your speed, it still takes what little thought process out of probing. To where it's move cluster over dot, shrink, shrink, hit. While moving probes may seem tedious to some, it was really the only "challenge" that existed in probing.
Also don't be afraid to jump sizes, especially if you are past 15-20% str.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Unkind Omen
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 11:21:00 -
[1098] - Quote
The 8 probes launch is excellent.
Is it possible to make the formation for 8 probes looking like two crosses on top of each other forming a cube where each of the probes is the vertex of that cube? I ask this because it looks like a best 8-probe formation for pinpointing as it allows to cover the maximal area by at least 4 probes which is necessary to pinpointing signature. And it is also the only formation that would form at least a 70.5 degree angle for every pair of probes if the target is located directly in the middle point of that cube which is necessary to achieve the maximal signal strength as soon as you reached the minimal probe radius limit. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 13:36:00 -
[1099] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad. Except that that's absolutely just rhetoric and nothing else. I'm not terribly faster with this new system than I was with the old one. Granted then I was using 5 probes and now I'm using 8, but the only real difference in time comes from the reduction of clicks. I was a very slow prober before and I still am a slow prober. And I usually don't get it in 3 moves. It typically takes me at least 6.
Its just experience, once you get a dot, your made basically |
Morcam
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 13:43:00 -
[1100] - Quote
My most-important reaction is that the new sites seem a bit silly. I'm not a big fan of the minigames of clicking through a little grid or clicking on all the little containers...
I'm also not so sure how I feel about the whole "all sites + their strengths when you enter system". It seems like all the best sites will be done by anyone who enters the system, clicks on it randomly, and looks at it. You should at least need to launch a deep-space probe or something. Works great for anoms though! That plus formations makes probing so insanely easy it's not even an action anymore, just a few clicks to find the best sites in the game. There's no skill at all in moving the probes into any sort of formation, it's basically done for you. Now, it's all about having the right ship with the right fittings.
Considering how much of a pain in the ass moving probes is, I never though I'd say that, but I don't think this was the right approach so far. Still, I could be convinced.
My suggestions:
1. Just remove signatures and their strengths from the system scanner by default. Add some new sort of compromise between this (which is too easy) and deep space probes (which were a bit on the strange/unintended side). Keep anoms, that's awesome!
2. Re-think probe formations. They're nice, but probing is just absurdly easy now, and there's no factor of player skill, only the ship you're flying. |
|
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 14:20:00 -
[1101] - Quote
did we all forget about the Deep Space Probe removal?
CCP Paradox - please keep DSP in the game, and allow the launch of one.
or expand the range of Combats(and Cores) to 256 to make up for the loss |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1456
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 14:34:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:did we all forget about the Deep Space Probe removal?
CCP Paradox - please keep DSP in the game, and allow the launch of one.
or expand the range of Combats(and Cores) to 256 to make up for the loss
I doubt they will revert that change. Though they could remove Sigs from the overlay and have them show on DSP(but randomize the str) and have DSP for ships and sigs, and leave the overlay for anomalies and whatever the new grav sites are called.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Arriaz
Mythic Heights
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 14:39:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Octoven wrote:
You still get a benefit to training them to 5, you need each specific skill to lvl 5 in order to fit the T2 scanning upgrade that accompanies it. EX: You need Rangefinding to 5 in orfer to fit a T2 Rangefinding Array
Why bother? Based on feedback scanning is easier and can be accomplished without scan bonused ships comfortably.
|
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2861
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 14:50:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Looking at the state of the feature and the calendar, it's probably best to postpone this scanner thing until some point release.
Basically if it would be just buggy you might have a tiny window to push the fixes and testing through in time, but since the issues are at design level, release with the expansion doesn't really look realistic at this point of time.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Haulie Berry
735
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 15:19:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Arriaz wrote:Octoven wrote:
You still get a benefit to training them to 5, you need each specific skill to lvl 5 in order to fit the T2 scanning upgrade that accompanies it. EX: You need Rangefinding to 5 in orfer to fit a T2 Rangefinding Array
Why bother? Based on feedback scanning is easier and can be accomplished without scan bonused ships comfortably.
People keep saying this as if it is a departure from the status quo on TQ. Scanning is easy and can be accomplished without scan bonused ships comfortable on tranquility, too.
Except for the slight increase in strength from going from a 1.5 bonus to a 1.25^2, the fundamental difficulty of scanning is the same. The process itself is less tedious, the math - excepting that slight bump in strength - is the same.
|
Sir John Halsey
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 15:25:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
and the changes, a chimp could be taught to get a 100% hit in 3 moves with only using the mouse.
Why do i have to use the mouse? I'll be a a happy chimp if they do it in a way so i can only use the keyboard. Touchpad sux. |
Sir John Halsey
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 15:34:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote: Regardless of your speed, it still takes what little thought process out of probing. To where it's move cluster over dot, shrink, shrink, hit. While setting up probes may seem tedious to some, it was really the only "challenge" that existed in probing.
Also don't be afraid to jump sizes, especially if you are past 15-20% str.
It was not a challenge. Just a boring repetitive action you had to do every time you jumped.
I burned out just because i had to do the same repetitive action for 5 months tens of times per day. I have no idea how people can mine |
Alouette Bistrot
FOXH0UND
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:04:00 -
[1108] - Quote
I remember back when the mining ships were rebalanced, a few guys I knew that mined were super pissed about it because they had invested so much sp into their ships and now CCP was making it easier to get into barges and stuff. I'm not fully aware of the details since I don't mine, but two guys were pissed enough to unsub and quit eve.
I can see how CCP wants to make it easier for noobs to make that sweet mining cash but to him he felt like he threw away months of training for an edge. CCP took that edge away, lost those players, and in the end probably gained more new players by making mining easier to train into.
Now I'm seeing it happen with my characters, I have two perfect scanners, I need the edge to beat other scanners to wormholes during hole control maneuvers. I need deep space probes to quickly get relative sig strengths, more importantly I need to hope that I have these skills and that my opponents don't have them. This rebalancing is taking that edge away from me, not by nerfing my capabilities but by making lesser trained toons able to compete in this part of the game. When we go on siege ops in wormholes we bring scan alts, characters trained into being the best they can be because a lot rides on how fast you can resolve sigs.
Billions of ISK are won or lost based on the few seconds advantage the approximately 50 days of training gives a perfect scanning toon.
I, and many others, have invested the sp and time and cash money into getting that advantage. You call this an edge case, but to many players it is a standard part of play and it is being heavily diluted.
I'm not gonna quit, but I want CCP to know that you've pissed me off and I know I will get nothing for those months of wasted time, which if you think about it, is just extra revenue for you so I guess I'm happy for you and your companies bottom line.
I'm waiting for the offgrid boosters to be nerfed so I can feel like I lost those SP too.
To the noobs training your toons, think twice about training edge case max skills, the benefits you see in level Vs are probably gonna be lost when CCP makes that aspect of the game easier to do. Max leadership booster alt is like half a year, max scanner is like 2 months. I'll probably only max combat skills from now on. |
Haulie Berry
735
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 17:06:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Alouette Bistrot wrote:
I'm waiting for the offgrid boosters to be nerfed so I can feel like I lost those SP too.
Holy ******* entitlement, batman. |
Giorgos Rbs
Surfers of the Apocalypse Trueheart Legion
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 18:37:00 -
[1110] - Quote
ISquishWorms wrote:Giorgos Rbs wrote:So i logged on again today to have a better look at the scanning.... things Anomalies no longer appear on probe or on board scanner. Only way to access them is via this fancy new scanner. Furthermore, we only see the sig number (ABC-123) visually and we have to mouseover in order to know what kind of anomaly it is. So... let me get this straight.. I am jumping into a wormhole with 20+ anomalies and... i am supposed to start looking around like a 10yr old with goggles to bookmark them? Then mouseover to tell the combat sites from the grav ladar... then look again to make sure i didn't miss any? Get serious ffs. Whoever designed this thing clearly doesn't play the same game as us Sounds about right, CCP consider this an improvement. Don't you?
Please rebuild the Jita monument. I wanna protest |
|
Giorgos Rbs
Surfers of the Apocalypse Trueheart Legion
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:37:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Ok.... besides the lack of the anomaly "list" similar to the one generated by the old on-board scanner - whats the use of it after patch? - and the inability to launch less probes than 8, with the shortcut fixes and all, PVE probing feels about right. I like how probes keep their formation and how you can resize the whole thing without extra shortcuts. It takes a lot less time :) Spread formation also looks "pathced" - for flat systems only, dont remove deep space probe! - Not sure if the new fixes made the dual 4set pvp probers happy with ergonomics... but its great for just probing signatures/
But seriously, bring our anomaly "list" back! OY! This is a game about... space data sheets! |
Zelfor
Aperture Harmonics K162
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:48:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Wormhole resident here...
Scanning is an integral part of living in wormholes, and I applaud an efforts to take the pain out of scanning while retaining the element of skill and reasonable effort.
The changes thus far are mostly good, but as others have mentioned, there are a few issues that stand out as confounding our standard operating methods when scanning in wormholes.
First: 8 probes. It's been mentioned, we should be able to choose the number we want. Why? Some of us use two sets of probes, in different ways, at the same time, to scan. Sometimes we only want to do a quick scan with a single probe, or just want to keep an eye out for signatures.
The bigger issue:
I don't really mind launching 8 probes at once all that much, that's what I do 95% of the time. I would like the checkboxes beside the probes back to de/select probes so that I can manipulate multiple groups of probes at once.
I highly object to having the two default probe formations be the only ones available. They are useful for some people, however, a 3rd option of launching them all in the same exact spot would make it orders of magnitude easier for us to configure the probe formations that we commonly use... not the ones you've given us. With the current available formations, probes are all over the place, and require a lot of clicking and mouse movement to reconfigure, not to mention the annoyance of having some probes at different altitudes, which makes it far harder to configure a nice 2D scanning pattern, as many of us like to use. |
Complex Potential
Blackstar Privateer Consortium Enigma Project
253
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:35:00 -
[1113] - Quote
I've been testing in WH systems on sisi but I've noticed something odd, sorry if it's been raised before:
When scanning multiple signatures the results just seem to stop updating after a while. I hit scan, it cycles through but then the results don't change at all.
Am I doing something wrong? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5116
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:36:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Giorgos Rbs wrote:Ok.... besides the lack of the anomaly "list" similar to the one generated by the old on-board scanner - whats the use of it after patch? - and the inability to launch less probes than 8, with the shortcut fixes and all, PVE probing feels about right. I like how probes keep their formation and how you can resize the whole thing without extra shortcuts. It takes a lot less time :) Spread formation also looks "pathced" - for flat systems only, dont remove deep space probe! - Not sure if the new fixes made the dual 4set pvp probers happy with ergonomics... but its great for just probing signatures/
But seriously, bring our anomaly "list" back! OY! This is a game about... space data sheets! They already brought the anom list back. It's on the latest Sisi build. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5116
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:38:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Complex Potential wrote:I've been testing in WH systems on sisi but I've noticed something odd, sorry if it's been raised before:
When scanning multiple signatures the results just seem to stop updating after a while. I hit scan, it cycles through but then the results don't change at all.
Am I doing something wrong? Are you using the "show all" filter? In the last build on Sisi I was noticing that scan results don't update under that filter, but they do under others. I don't know if this got fixed or not, but I did file a bug report about it. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Complex Potential
Blackstar Privateer Consortium Enigma Project
253
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:40:00 -
[1116] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Complex Potential wrote:I've been testing in WH systems on sisi but I've noticed something odd, sorry if it's been raised before:
When scanning multiple signatures the results just seem to stop updating after a while. I hit scan, it cycles through but then the results don't change at all.
Am I doing something wrong? Are you using the "show all" filter? In the last build on Sisi I was noticing that scan results don't update under that filter, but they do under others. I don't know if this got fixed or not, but I did file a bug report about it. I think I was using the cosmic sigs one but with anoms manually included. I'll have a play with other filters to see if it solves it. It's annoying because I was just getting the hang of things. |
Jalequin
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:00:00 -
[1117] - Quote
The spread formation no longer has blindspots; excellent! MASS CAPITAL JUMPING SPAM! (April 11th Mass test): http://j.mp/Z1BEIU
May 16th Mass Test: http://j.mp/10Db6ry |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Extinction Level Event.
468
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:53:00 -
[1118] - Quote
So you guys plan on putting 8 probes??? It in fact doesn't make that huge diference on probing you know? The 7 probes is a sweet way to get a good geometry, and for the feature to be balanced, 7 or 8 would have to have the same strenght. So logicaly I vote for 7, the simplier the better.
And how about the mini profession game?
I tried it, and it is pretty hard... There should be ways to customize our viruses, adding Strenght and Coerence...
Maybe a third atribute would be interesting... something like resilience... to reduce incoming damage.... or something like this...also in this the customization come in hand!
Also. Make Hostile NPCs spawn if failed to hack the site. so it locks until the npcs are killed. There should be a risk in hacking. Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Extinction Level Event.
468
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:03:00 -
[1119] - Quote
Zelfor wrote:Wormhole resident here...
Scanning is an integral part of living in wormholes, and I applaud an efforts to take the pain out of scanning while retaining the element of skill and reasonable effort.
The changes thus far are mostly good, but as others have mentioned, there are a few issues that stand out as confounding our standard operating methods when scanning in wormholes.
First: 8 probes. It's been mentioned, we should be able to choose the number we want. Why? Some of us use two sets of probes, in different ways, at the same time, to scan. Sometimes we only want to do a quick scan with a single probe, or just want to keep an eye out for signatures.
The bigger issue:
I don't really mind launching 8 probes at once all that much, that's what I do 95% of the time. I would like the checkboxes beside the probes back to de/select probes so that I can manipulate multiple groups of probes at once.
I highly object to having the two default probe formations be the only ones available. They are useful for some people, however, a 3rd option of launching them all in the same exact spot would make it orders of magnitude easier for us to configure the probe formations that we commonly use... not the ones you've given us. With the current available formations, probes are all over the place, and require a lot of clicking and mouse movement to reconfigure, not to mention the annoyance of having some probes at different altitudes, which makes it far harder to configure a nice 2D scanning pattern, as many of us like to use.
so you make 2 groups of 4? Wasn't it better then making it 9? so we could use 3 goups of 3? or 6 so we could use 2 groups of 3? it have the same effect doesn't it?
If you want to make a quick scan with 1 probe, use the spread formation, it is better.
To have all of them in the same 2D use the spread formation.
Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Jalequin
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:11:00 -
[1120] - Quote
We should have a shortcut key option for the system scanner. Bind a key so that it runs a system scan.
Binding a key for the d-scan is also useful. MASS CAPITAL JUMPING SPAM! (April 11th Mass test): http://j.mp/Z1BEIU
May 16th Mass Test: http://j.mp/10Db6ry |
|
M'aak'han
C-7
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:24:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote: so you make 2 groups of 4? Wasn't it better then making it 9? so we could use 3 goups of 3? or 6 so we could use 2 groups of 3? it have the same effect doesn't it? If a triangulation need 3 probes, why 8? you can make 2 sets of 3 and an incomplete with 2.... .
You can't triangulate in space, you need a fourth value.
Triangulation works on a planet surface as the ground lets you know you're looking for something on the surface (or near surface, geologically speaking) or above. In space, if you use only 3 probes, you get 2 possible results: one "above" the plane the probes are in, and another "below". Thus the need of a set of 4 probes at least to eliminate ghost results.
|
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 02:37:00 -
[1122] - Quote
I understand what's going on here, CCP, and it makes me sad. You have a release soon and you're trying to push your new shiny feature through without any analysis. You have a lot of feedback but you address only what's simple to fix and completely ignore everything else.
The worst thing is that you're breaking what currently works fine instead of improving it.
Putting together different points there are four main issues: 1) Downgrade of interface usefulness. Looks like you're working on it. 2) Suppressing or totally removing a lot of different use cases. Totally against the sandbox. 3) While aiming for "accessibility" current changes achieve only "bluntness". 4) High-end scanning which required a lot of investment in skills and implants will be accessible to almost everyone. The system is definitely unhealthy if there are no high goals.
In case you ask for examples - carefully read highly liked posts in this thread. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 03:35:00 -
[1123] - Quote
CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 03:44:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Alexander the Great wrote: 4) High-end scanning which required a lot of investment in skills and implants will be accessible to almost everyone. .
the billions spent in implants (lg virtue) are crushed to 6 millon value ( 3 scannings mods at 2 million each ). you should also think about the people you screw over with it.
Spending time and isk/money for an alt , specialize them and getting then kicked is not the nice art. I think i will feel betrayed on the 4th July . |
Winters Fortis
Tax Evasion FTW
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 03:57:00 -
[1125] - Quote
At this rate, exploration will be a profession available to 5-day old alts which can do the high end radars/mags 20% slower than a person with max skills within a few patches. Oh wait.
My hopes for the winter expansion 1. Carriers within a week of training. 2. Make botting for miners legit and put NPC buy orders for trit at 50 ISK/unit. 3. Remove NPC hostiles from all DED sites. When you warp in, you get to select two out of six deadspace modules from a dropdown list. You then solve a complicated maths equation such as 5 + 5 = ? to determine whether you get the module. 4. Make D-scan automated. When a ship shows up, you get an alert sound. 5. Make Gunnery V/Missile Launcher Operation V the only prerequisite for tech II battleship weapons. Remove half the bonuses from gunnery/missile launcher support skills and add them to Weapon Upgrades. Remove Advanced Weapon Upgrades and add the bonuses to Gunnery/Missile Launcher Operation. 6. Tech II Pirate Faction Strategic Modules which allow your shuttle to fit capital sized modules. 7. +10000 attribute implants. 8. Mining Supercapitals which create a specialized version of a jump bridge which sucks all asteroids within 5 stargate jumps into your cargohold, refined at 100% efficiency. 9. Jovian Motherships which can create cynos in high sec. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 03:59:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Alouette Bistrot wrote:
To the noobs training your toons, think twice about training edge case max skills, the benefits you see in level Vs are probably gonna be lost when CCP makes that aspect of the game easier to do. Max leadership booster alt is like half a year, max scanner is like 2 months. I'll probably only max combat skills from now on.
this advise should be make sticky.
|
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 04:01:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Winters Fortis wrote: 8. Mining Supercapitals which create a specialized version of a jump bridge which sucks all asteroids within 5 stargate jumps into your cargohold, refined at 100% efficiency.c.
this could be the t2 rorqual. |
Henry Montclaire
Vortex Research Dalek Asylum
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 04:07:00 -
[1128] - Quote
So, I especially have my ships set up with 14 probes, so that I can launch 7, and have another 7 ready to launch. It saves time, it allows me to decloak and reload probes when I like, and it's a system that works well.
Now, even though I don't have the skills to launch 8 probes, I launch 8 probes automatically, which leaves me with 6 probes in my cargo, and forcing me to hold off the reload for a while longer. I suppose I should just buy two more probes, but hey . . . I liked my seven probe sets . . . |
X4me1eoH
Reverse Side.
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 08:27:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Sorry bad english, google translate: The new scanner interface. It is unclear why the buttons have shifted downward, but oh well get used to. Irritating to a couple of things. First of all there is no separation between the columns in the window reading signatures, and a small window we see something unreadable type: WTA-7unknown sWormh77%. Of course you can make out that this is the first fully nepomestivsheesya signature ID, and the second is that the type of aknoun, just again not vlezzhy, and that it is still wormholes, but the eye for this mishmash of letters, just does not cling. From the first Vzlyad brain perceives this conjoint design as one word and hangs for a few seconds decoding. Make a clear separation between columns. And yet, and to make the columns themselves can be scaled, some narrow, others extend generally return as it was. Second. If you change the radius of the tubes by pulling the edge of the tube, the scanner radius remains unchanged until you press does not scan. This is inconvenient, it is not clear from the cork 4au I moved to 2 audio or 0.5 au. |
Zilero
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 09:36:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Alouette Bistrot wrote:I remember back when the mining ships were rebalanced, a few guys I knew that mined were super pissed about it because they had invested so much sp into their ships and now CCP was making it easier to get into barges and stuff. I'm not fully aware of the details since I don't mine, but two guys were pissed enough to unsub and quit eve.
I can see how CCP wants to make it easier for noobs to make that sweet mining cash but to him he felt like he threw away months of training for an edge. CCP took that edge away, lost those players, and in the end probably gained more new players by making mining easier to train into.
Now I'm seeing it happen with my characters, I have two perfect scanners, I need the edge to beat other scanners to wormholes during hole control maneuvers. I need deep space probes to quickly get relative sig strengths, more importantly I need to hope that I have these skills and that my opponents don't have them. This rebalancing is taking that edge away from me, not by nerfing my capabilities but by making lesser trained toons able to compete in this part of the game. When we go on siege ops in wormholes we bring scan alts, characters trained into being the best they can be because a lot rides on how fast you can resolve sigs.
Billions of ISK are won or lost based on the few seconds advantage the approximately 50 days of training gives a perfect scanning toon.
I, and many others, have invested the sp and time and cash money into getting that advantage. You call this an edge case, but to many players it is a standard part of play and it is being heavily diluted.
I'm not gonna quit, but I want CCP to know that you've pissed me off and I know I will get nothing for those months of wasted time, which if you think about it, is just extra revenue for you so I guess I'm happy for you and your companies bottom line.
I'm waiting for the offgrid boosters to be nerfed so I can feel like I lost those SP too.
To the noobs training your toons, think twice about training edge case max skills, the benefits you see in level Vs are probably gonna be lost when CCP makes that aspect of the game easier to do. Max leadership booster alt is like half a year, max scanner is like 2 months. I'll probably only max combat skills from now on.
With the new scanning modules it has already been nerfed. "unscannable" lokis / tengus are now WAY easier to scan down - and you no longer need an expensive implant clone.
There, you just lost SP.
|
|
Space Wanderer
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 12:47:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.
I can confirm that. Posting a more detailed feedback post with details in a few minutes. |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 12:52:00 -
[1132] - Quote
-when you enter a wh you still get the "warning leaving probes behind" message although it auto-recalls probes back
-when you probe down a sign and warp to it, you still get the signatur at 0,4 AU distance not probbed |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 12:58:00 -
[1133] - Quote
Winters Fortis wrote:4. Make D-scan automated. When a ship shows up, you get an alert sound. Actually I'd like to see something like this as a replacement of local chat.
Winters Fortis wrote:Remove half the bonuses from gunnery/missile launcher support skills and add them to Weapon Upgrades. Nice analogy. CCP, don't you see how stupid is the skill change you're making (which is "final")? |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 13:19:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.
With everyone and his dog being able to scan relatively quickly it will be even more important to get a slight edge over other explorers. Especialy when scanning lots of sigs and the dsp gone. So i think virtues might actualy become more popular after the patch. |
Space Wanderer
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 13:33:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Additional Feedback
I did some more tests and there are a couple of additional issues that I want to point out.
Rangefinding T2 modules
I confirmed experimentally that, using the new formula, it is definitely possible to scan down the so-called "unscannable" ships, without using virtue implants.
First of all I checked whether the cap on ships' signature size is still present (it is) and if it is unchanged (it is); so there is no chance for ships to become more "unscannable" than they could become before. After that I fitted a covop with various scan strength modules, including a cheap +6% implant. On the other hand I had a slot left for a point, and I used only a T2 launcher instead of a sisters launcher. Using 8 probes in a decent configuration (which of course is not the standard CCP configuration) I have been able to find it. Without using any virtue implant.
Now, I understand that it could be by design, but still it should be explicitly stated instead of being slipped through the cracks, like this. This certainly will kill the market for virtue implants. In any case what I do not really understand, is why the new modules are not active. It makes sense that people who want such advantages in scanning (do not forget the crazyness of the pinpointing modules) should stay uncloaked.
Predefined formations
While hunting for the above mentioned ship, I needed a specific probe formation to optimize the scan strength. And I realized that it now takes me at least THREE TIMES more than before to actually set the probes in that formation. This is simply crazy. I can understand that CCP put into the game some predefined formations for noobs, but why the **** have they removed even the simple "all probes in the same spot" formation which could be at least used to compose custom formations in a decently fast way? I reiterate, on the scanning interface CCP is dropping the ball hard. They are making the interface easier to use for newbies, but HARDER to use for advanced users. You must at least add an "all probes in the same spot" starting formation.
Seriously CCP, I can understand removing DSPs, I can understand changing game mechanics, I can understand inroducing new modules. For all of this there could be valid reasons. But willingly dismantle an already implemented interface and making it even harder to use for advanced users in order to accomodate the newbies? Do you even realize how silly that sounds? I reiterate that you are dropping the ball really hard here. This position of yours on the interface is utterly undefendable. |
Space Wanderer
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 13:36:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:With everyone and his dog being able to scan relatively quickly it will be even more important to get a slight edge over other explorers.
That may apply only in empire, and anyway the virtues are not going to give you that edge, the pinpointing modules are going to flatten any edge they could give you. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 14:58:00 -
[1137] - Quote
But by the same token wouldn't Virtues make it even easier? They'd still have some value, but obviously not at their current level if you don't need them for "unscannable" OGBs. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 16:18:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:That may apply only in empire, and anyway the virtues are not going to give you that edge, the pinpointing modules are going to flatten any edge that virtues could give you.
I'm getting where you're coming from in regard to scanning down ships. But question was simply wheter virtues will be worthless. And i don't think so. With the changes coming i think they will be attractive for PVE. Fitting the new modules on a combat fit might not be viable for finding combat sites. It's the imps that could make a difference competing with others for the sites. It's all about the speed. |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 16:57:00 -
[1139] - Quote
i dont want to launch 7 probes and now you made it worse and i need to launch 8 probes, really ccp, start reading our posts, make it optional |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 17:00:00 -
[1140] - Quote
there are some psychiatric hospitals more normal then this changes |
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Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 17:39:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:With everyone and his dog being able to scan relatively quickly it will be even more important to get a slight edge over other explorers. That may apply only in empire, and anyway the virtues are not going to give you that edge, the pinpointing modules are going to flatten any edge that virtues could give you.
confirming that. 3 pinpointing modules T2 get you so so much sigstrength , getting easy over 200... thats insane !!! |
Space Wanderer
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 18:42:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Durzel wrote:But by the same token wouldn't Virtues make it even easier? They'd still have some value, but obviously not at their current level if you don't need them for "unscannable" OGBs.
Johan Toralen wrote:With the changes coming i think they will be attractive for PVE. Fitting the new modules on a combat fit might not be viable for finding combat sites. It's the imps that could make a difference competing with others for the sites. It's all about the speed.
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:3 pinpointing modules T2 get you so so much sigstrength , getting easy over 200... thats insane !!!
(replying to all three at the same time)
Yes, I understood that you guys were talking about PVE, and my reply was targeted at that. So, let me clarify it.
First of all, I assume that both of you are talking about competition in empire (in lowsec and nullsec the situation is different, you are much more worried that the competion will simply blow you up than be faster than you... ). But since people go for crazily expensive fits in empire (see lvl4s) what you say is not impossible. However, let's not stick to the see what the actual benefits of virtue implants are.
What they do is to increase your scan strength by about 33% (if you use the complete set). And what use is scan strength? It certainly impacts the amount of sigs that you are able to scan to 100%, but if you are out exploring I assume you are already able to scan out all the sigs you are interested (and anyway, it's very easy to get a fit that would allow you to scan out even the 1% sigs). The other reason why it is important is because it reduces the amount of scan cycles needed to find the site (meaning that with a scan strength high enough you might be able to find a site at 1AU or 0.5AU instead than having to drop all the way to 0.25AU). So, an increase in scan strength might allow for such a transition. Which seems a good thing. However...
...with the new pinpointing modules you can easily scan a site at 8AU, drop the probes all the way to 0.25AU and STILL keep a fix on the signal. So, no matter your scan strength, you need only two scan cycles to find a site if you use the pinpoiinting modules.
Of course this is valid according to the current state of pinpointing modules. Things might change before realease, if this feedback is acted upon.
However Maggeridon, I am not sure where you get that 200 scan str. With 3 rangefinding modules (I assume you meant that, not the pinpointing modules, which do not affect scan str) and a covop, fully skilled, with also rigs in addition to 3 modules and sisters core probes I get at 160. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 18:58:00 -
[1143] - Quote
Space Wanderer wrote:
However Maggeridon, I am not sure where you get that 200 scan str. With 3 rangefinding modules (I assume you meant that, not the pinpointing modules, which do not affect scan str) and a covop, fully skilled, with also rigs in addition to 3 modules and sisters core probes I get at 160.
Well I checked with my scanning toon max skilled in a covert scanning tengu and 3 t2 mods for scanstrength. I had sisters pcore probes and sisters launcher. With the the old scanning mech and lg virtue implanst i think i get something around 188 scanstrength . and i think with the same ship and 3 mods it was something around 220. but i will check tomorrow when i am back from work and let you know exact data and fits.
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Cirillith
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 22:14:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example...
Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug.
Just info for all those DED fans :D |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 22:37:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example...
I hope this is true, that would be a very nice change. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 22:57:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D
well this is another kick in the butt to the people who specialized in hisec exploring. |
Space Wanderer
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:31:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:With the the old scanning mech and lg virtue implanst i think i get something around 188 scanstrength . and i think with the same ship and 3 mods it was something around 220. but i will check tomorrow when i am back from work and let you know exact data and fits.
No need, if your char has also the lg virtue I am not surprised at all. I thought you were talking about a non-implanted character. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:42:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D
Are you sure it applies to ded 4's too? That would be really silly since second room in serpentis one requires both decent dps and tank. |
Cirillith
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:58:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D Are you sure it applies to ded 4's too? That would be really silly since second room in serpentis one requires both decent dps and tank. Yes - we tested this on SISI today with Guristas 3/10 and 4/10, and my quotation is CCP answer to bugreport.
In both cases we were unable to enter DED. On the other hand ORCAs were able to go inside (lol :D).
It seems in this way CCP tries to promote "team" play style because with T3 cruiser you were able to scann down site and do it right after or during scanning (did that many times during WH look in HI or on my HI-sec alt) - so it was solo play style. |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 00:20:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D Is true for all 4/10s, including those in lowsec, or does the change only apply in highsec? |
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Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 00:24:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Cirillith wrote:Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D Are you sure it applies to ded 4's too? That would be really silly since second room in serpentis one requires both decent dps and tank. Yes - we tested this on SISI today with Guristas 3/10 and 4/10, and my quotation is CCP answer to bugreport. In both cases we were unable to enter DED. On the other hand ORCAs were able to go inside (lol :D). It seems in this way CCP tries to promote "team" play style because with T3 cruiser you were able to scann down site and do it right after or during scanning (did that many times during WH look in HI or on my HI-sec alt) - so it was solo play style.
If this is true, it's really starting to #$!%% me off. CCP this entire expansion seems to be designed to make the life of the solo explorers more difficult. I guess the nods to solo play during fanfest was all just a bunch of bull and cover.
What really bugs me is that this drive to force team play is actually the most unsandboxy thing CCP has done since I've been playing the game. If someone can run a site solo, the so be it. Why is it CCP now thinks that they should be dictating through arbitrary game mechanics like ship restrictions how a player must do PVE and whit whom? |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1466
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 01:10:00 -
[1152] - Quote
Manssell wrote:
What really bugs me is that this drive to force team play is actually the most unsandboxy thing CCP has done since I've been playing the game. If someone can run a site solo, the so be it. Why is it CCP now thinks that they should be dictating through arbitrary game mechanics like ship restrictions how a player must do PVE and with whom?
Don't you know. CCP wants to change Eve to: LF2M 4/10 DED, need logi and tank. Convo for fleet invite!
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Sir John Halsey
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 01:14:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Manssell wrote:
What really bugs me is that this drive to force team play is actually the most unsandboxy thing CCP has done since I've been playing the game. If someone can run a site solo, the so be it. Why is it CCP now thinks that they should be dictating through arbitrary game mechanics like ship restrictions how a player must do PVE and with whom?
Don't you know. CCP wants to change Eve to: LF2M 4/10 DED, need logi and tank. Convo for fleet invite!
Well, a HAC or a pirate cruiser can put some nice DPS. And i'm pretty sure the sigs can be easily scanned without any issues in Odyssey.
I do HS exploration in Tengu but only because i have to compete with other Tengus :P And, 3/10 can be done with an AF very easy. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2877
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 01:23:00 -
[1154] - Quote
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1100
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 01:38:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 01:41:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
That may be the intended message, but the actual message is "switch to a HAC/BC/pirate faction cruiser and keep on farming." The problem isn't the sites being accessible to T3s, it's the availability of easily farmed sites with drops of 500m+ in highsec. As long as the sites exist in their current form, they'll be farmed heavily by older/more experienced players. The removal of T3s just means that people who previously lost to tengus will instead lose to Cerberuses or Sleipnirs or whatever. |
Fehz
Not Taking This Seriously
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 01:47:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Can't seem to find any mention of this, but the way probes automatically return when jumping into a new system isn't working when going to wormholes. It still gives the old prompt to warn you about leaving them behind. |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:01:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.
I've sat cloaked watching newer players try to run the Angle 4/10 in BCs and fail regularly, so a T1 newer player in a T1 cruiser seems really to be stretching. As Tsubutal says it'll just be older players in HACs and pirate faction. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:09:00 -
[1159] - Quote
the only thing I foresee with all changes coming up, ii taht all will be more expensive. ice will go up, bs hulls be more expensive. carrier and the rigging will become more expensive. ded loot will go up in prices. and so on... |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:13:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Don't you know. CCP wants to change Eve to: LF2M 4/10 DED, need logi and tank. Convo for fleet invite!
Yea, I know this is a joke (and a good one at that) but that's also kinda bugging me (if true). This whole exploration expansion seems to be falling down since rather than just changing content that's already there, why not oh I don't knowGǪ add new content? If CCP wants to force players into group play why not add some new sites that are like mini Incursions that need to be scanned down. They could scale them so that the rewards are such that it would't be worth it for older players to fleet up, but a bunch of newer players would love to.
I don't know, it just feels like they are removing and mucking up current content, screwing with older and solo players, while really adding nothing but a clickfest mini game wrapped in a bow and calling it "new". |
|
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:16:00 -
[1161] - Quote
Manssell wrote:
I don't know, it just feels like they are removing and mucking up current content, screwing with older and solo players, while really adding nothing but a clickfest mini game wrapped in a bow and calling it "new".
that reminds me a bit of the introduction of PI. was that allways a clickfest. luckily they made it after a while bit less of clicking. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:26:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Probably a result of people constantly moaning about Tengus farming the sites and "stealing" them. But as some have pointed out it's not really gonna change anything. I can run 4/10 just fine in a Gila and so can many others in this or similar ships. The big issue is that sites with such valuable loot can be farmed in hisec in the first place and that CCP does nothing to promote incentives to go to low/null instead. As i've written today in one of the other threads it's seriously off that you can farm billions with almost no risk in hisec but the new profession sites only give crap loot even in null sec while you actualy risk your ship and pod. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:41:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.
You'd die within 10 seconds (remember, NPC aggro switching ) but ye, you have a point. Also, gl to anyone killing serpentis overseer in 4/10 with anything below 600 dps (while tanking full spawn).
Basically, as folks have already said, this change is crap - guys with tengus in hisec will now switch to cerbs, ishtars or maybe drakes (can they enter?) and carry on their marry way. However why is no one thinking of frecking lowsec? We're pretty much f****d since cloakie tech3s at least gave you the option of travelling around and, you know... exploring... and with covops fits dps is far below anything allowing for fast farming. With this change and tech3's out of way its back to mwd+cloak days of isthar I guess, but why this change was needed and what good it will bring is beyond me. If they are trying to force 'cooperative game-play' on people they are totally doing it the wrong way.
Overall, I honestly don't know what's going on through heads of people in CCP. Odyssey is in my eyes a major letdown in terms of exploration content which they boasted about so much in announcements. I mean, look at what 'explo' content we got: - an overhaul of existing scanning mechanics with tools being taken out (DSP, list of sigs in system) and more emphasis put on 'bling' (ye sure, it's fun to have sigs on overview, but having to rotate 360 all the time to get a feeling for those sigs is ANNOYING - moving of gravs to anomalies making them infinately more dangerous in systems and constellations where area control is problematic - a silly mingame (ok that one has potential in some future whcih may or may not come).
If their intention was to prevent cherry picking sites they could have made a change as simple as randomising signature strengts and voila, suddently everyone's got the same chance to be the first one to probe down a ded. And if you don't want high value drop plexes in hisec solution is even simpler - move em to lowsec. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1036
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 02:52:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro. You'd die within 10 seconds (remember, NPC aggro switching ) but ye, you have a point. Also, gl to anyone killing serpentis overseer in 4/10 with anything below 600 dps (while tanking full spawn). Done it in a Vexor with 3 Ogre II, I usually abandoned the drones to make it out though.
If they plan to change all exploration to be group then I will probably be un-subbing when that time comes, I am already done with Data and Relic sites because of the change, the last thing that I can do and enjoy doing is DED complexes and C1 and C2 wormholes if they change those to force a group play I will un-sub and end my EVE career. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 03:30:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Zelfor wrote:Wormhole resident here...
Scanning is an integral part of living in wormholes, and I applaud an efforts to take the pain out of scanning while retaining the element of skill and reasonable effort.
The changes thus far are mostly good, but as others have mentioned, there are a few issues that stand out as confounding our standard operating methods when scanning in wormholes.
First: 8 probes. It's been mentioned, we should be able to choose the number we want. Why? Some of us use two sets of probes, in different ways, at the same time, to scan. Sometimes we only want to do a quick scan with a single probe, or just want to keep an eye out for signatures.
The bigger issue:
I don't really mind launching 8 probes at once all that much, that's what I do 95% of the time. I would like the checkboxes beside the probes back to de/select probes so that I can manipulate multiple groups of probes at once.
I highly object to having the two default probe formations be the only ones available. They are useful for some people, however, a 3rd option of launching them all in the same exact spot would make it orders of magnitude easier for us to configure the probe formations that we commonly use... not the ones you've given us. With the current available formations, probes are all over the place, and require a lot of clicking and mouse movement to reconfigure, not to mention the annoyance of having some probes at different altitudes, which makes it far harder to configure a nice 2D scanning pattern, as many of us like to use.
WELCOME TO EVE ONLINE.
WHERE CCP DOESNT ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND KNOW HOW PLAYERS PLAY.
|
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
175
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 04:06:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Manssell wrote:
What really bugs me is that this drive to force team play is actually the most unsandboxy thing CCP has done since I've been playing the game. If someone can run a site solo, the so be it. Why is it CCP now thinks that they should be dictating through arbitrary game mechanics like ship restrictions how a player must do PVE and with whom?
Don't you know. CCP wants to change Eve to: LF2M 4/10 DED, need logi and tank. Convo for fleet invite! ROFL! If you can't solo a DeD 4 in a non-T3 ship then you should just gimme all ur stuff and quit Eve, your bad. I can solo a Highsec DeD 4 Like in Deltole (which is what they're referring to) in a damn AF, you can at least do it in a HaC/T1 BC. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:-á"You have no idea how true that is". |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 04:41:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Real ~~~Pros~~~ use T1 Cruisers to solo 4/10s. |
Sarah Olson
Alpha United Industries Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 04:44:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro. You'd die within 10 seconds (remember, NPC aggro switching ) but ye, you have a point. Also, gl to anyone killing serpentis overseer in 4/10 with anything below 600 dps (while tanking full spawn).
The Serpentis overseer in the 4/10 can be killed with far less dps than 600. I've done the site with a tech 2 fitted Retribution and killed the overseer with just over 200 dps without even hitting his weak resists. Its far from efficient but certainly doable and full room agro is no problem in an AF.
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1855
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 05:01:00 -
[1169] - Quote
Hola there high sec "explorers" welcome to an MMO... |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1036
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 05:49:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: welcome to an MMO... MMORPG There is 2 meanings for this 1st Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game 2ns Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls
I will expand on the first one. Why should I have to be in a fleet to play an MMO, there is plenty of room for solo in a MMO world and just because you do not meet another player does not mean there is not player interaction. People who like to play the market are in an extreme style of PVP, and there player interaction is limited, yet they have to compete with thousands of other players at a time. Explorers (High Sec or any where else) have to compete with other explorers, gate camps, roaming gangs and once the loot is obtained they then must compete again with other explorers and market PVPers to sell there loot on the market. They have to be able to do what they enjoy and hopefully not get caught. Player interaction is achieved this way though no direct meeting has occurred. Some people do not like ship vs. ship PVP, is that wrong of them? Is this game not a sand box, letting whoever build there own castle in there own way? No one should be able to tell someone that how they play the game is "wrong", what they define as entertainment is completely up to them. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
Tauranon
Weeesearch
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 05:54:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.
1 vexor, 3 sentries, rails, lock from the beacon, 1:15 in the final pocket for me for me, maybe 2 minutes for someone with drone interfacing iv, gallente cruiser iv, and sentry iv.
As soon as the phi overseer dies, so does half the room dps, so you can go loot after sniping it. You'll probably get damped and lose lock partway through fight, your sentries won't care. The first room doesn't even make you turn on the tank.
about all you'd do to a sensible noob with your covops is be able to steal the loots. |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 06:06:00 -
[1172] - Quote
- Just make it so you right click on probe launcher -> configure # of probes to be launched per click from 1-8. Everyone is happy.
- If you're really going to remove DSPs, make the sigs all start off in scan window with their base sig strengths. I don't want to pan my camera around searching for icons to click on.
Not happy about loss of DSP and blocking of T3s from 4/10s. I trained for both specifically to be more competitive in hisec 4/10s. Now instead of an all-in-one Loki, I will use a scanning alt along with a Sleipnir/Gila/Ishtar. You've removed annoyances in the probe launching part of things and added new annoyances that are much worse. To be competitive/efficient you multibox now. Or maybe use an armor tanked ship, so you can fit the new scanning modules and still tank. Or the Gnosis. Multiboxing will be best.
Multiboxing and panning the camera all around clicking on icons. Ugh. Clicks and wrist movements removed only to be replaced with new ones.
Really all probing needed was auto-launch and a way to snapshot your starting formation so you don't have to set up the same thing system after system. |
marVLs
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 06:31:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Seriouslly wtf?!
CCP way: make ships perfect for scanning etc. then ban them from doing those sites.... |
JetCord
The Brony Herd Lost Obsession
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 07:46:00 -
[1174] - Quote
tried the new probing mechanic last night and frankly a bit disappointed
Few things that i feel need to be addressed:
1. there is no custom probe formation
2. when getting down to 0.25 AU scan the red sphere thingie is gone and using pin point formation does not feel intuitive compare to the old probing mechanic of using the pyramid shapped method
3 single probe resizing in a pin poin formation feel awkward as now the use the XYZ axis on the box so i cannot know how much overlapping of the probes are
4. we are used to the visual of overlapping probe to help us probing - in pin point formation there is no such feed back
thanks
have not try the hacking part yet |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 07:53:00 -
[1175] - Quote
But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2879
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 07:55:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
That may be the intended message, but the actual message is "switch to a HAC/BC/pirate faction cruiser and keep on farming." The problem isn't the sites being accessible to T3s, it's the availability of easily farmed sites with drops of 500m+ in highsec. As long as the sites exist in their current form, they'll be farmed heavily by older/more experienced players. The removal of T3s just means that people who previously lost to tengus will instead lose to Cerberuses or Sleipnirs or whatever.
I obviously agree with you, this change isn't the final solution. But it's a step in the right direction and shows that CCP acknowledges the issues these farmers create and that T3s are overpowered in relation to the site design.
Hisec 4/10s should be moved to lowsec, 3/10s should be copied to lowsec.
Daniel Plain wrote:i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.
This is the way and mentality of the hisec bear. Killing noobs instead of helping them. gg
Phi outpost can be done with a meta 4 fit Vexor with no heavy or sentry drones. GSO in the same fit, for the Monastery you'll want sentries, but then you don't really need a tank. I didn't find the Angel 4/10 as a new player so can't comment on that.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
JetCord
The Brony Herd Lost Obsession
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 07:59:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Octoven wrote:JetCord wrote:New exploration modules There are Tech I and Tech II variants.
Scan Acquisition Array
Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII
Scan Rangefinding Array
Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII
Scan Pinpointing Array
Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II
i noticed that the skill requirement for T1 and T2 version for these modules are the same!
is this intended so that we go straight to T2 version instead of using the T1 version? I imagine this was set so that those who do not have the skills for T2s yet can properly test both modules with low skills.
ok i accept that but what will be the requirement to use the T2 - so that i can train now and be able to use them whenever people manage to invent and build them |
WingedDoom
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 08:55:00 -
[1178] - Quote
How about 4/10 in lowsec? They will have same restrictions? |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost
36
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 09:41:00 -
[1179] - Quote
There is one thing that still is missing: Being able to launch less then 8 probes! This is VERY important! In W-space yu can get back to k-space with only 4 probes. If you lose some probes to the timer or had to jump to safety in an other wormhole and only have less then 8 you will get stuck , even if you have 4 probes left in your cargo hold. I like the fact you launch them all at once(up to 8 probes) , maybe just change the way you launch to probes to this: If the launcher has 8 or more probes, launch 8 probes. If less then 8 probes, launch all the probes in the launcher. Even if you have a set of 4 cores and a set of 4 combats, you still can't get out with the current version on sisi
I rember back when i first started in w-space i was checking a crit hole. A corpie jumped in with seeing it was crit and closed the hole with my probes on the other side. We had to scan our way out with only the 4 probes in my cargo i had left. We even barly escaped a groep of people in a c6. It was quite the exciting w-space roam going from home->C5(the crit one)->c5->c6(exit collapsed by inhabitants, we berly escaped)->C5->C5->c4->c3-> somewhere in minimatar space 30 jumps from jita.
O by the way i still can't see any timers on the probes. Can someone confirm probes don't have timers anymore? Because scanning a w-hole with 50 sigs can take longer then the probes have timers... .
And there is still not possible to see if the scanner probes are selected in the scanner probe tab after the first scan. |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 10:03:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Roime wrote:4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.
It's a ham fisted approach, it has the vibe of the CCP Greyscale, but I might be wrong here. Probably are.
The farming problem only fully manifested itself once they over buffed the rewards almost hysterically. Looking at you Invuln.
They should have randomized the signatures, and moved the 4/10 to low-sec. These sites are almost perfect starter points for new low-sec dwellers, as they can be completed in a T1 battlecruiser or even a frig gang and don't require a long time to complete.
Locking the gates like this accomplishes nothing, since probing will be lol easy T3 is not a big loss. They were chosen mostly for the scan bonus anyway. Come Odyssey farmers will be in whatever ship is absolute best. No loot for noobs in Drakes. Not like this. |
|
Psychotic Psychosis
The Black Talons Chapter Company of Spacefarers
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 10:14:00 -
[1181] - Quote
I personally really like the new changes, there is absolutely no fun in dragging buggy arrows around with tons of brackets getting in the way constantly. I like that this new system is just CCP trying to drag people off watching a module cycle and to actually make them do something.
Just my two cents but i really like it. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 10:21:00 -
[1182] - Quote
Sarah Olson wrote: The Serpentis overseer in the 4/10 can be killed with far less dps than 600. I've done the site with a tech 2 fitted Retribution and killed the overseer with just over 200 dps without even hitting his weak resists. Its far from efficient but certainly doable and full room agro is no problem in an AF.
Well we must have met different overseers because the one I know would tank 200 dps of wrong damage type while picking his nose and laughing at you in most menacing manner. I've had that bugger rep tank 350 dps (cloaky) tengu shooting proper damage types and had to bring another guy into plex to kill it.
My issue with this change is the fact that they are fixing something which is a problem (cherry picking) by introducing pointles ship restrictions.Strategic cruisers are very versatile, yes, they (well, pretty much tengu) are top dogs in exploration but guess what - there will always be a top dog, so when thereGÇÿs enough whining about the next top canine will next nerf include gilas and ishtars? Again, cherry picking is the problem, tech 3s are not. Furthermore, not everything happens in hisec and this change makes life of lowsec explorer unnecessarily complicated since now I can effectively park my tengu in hangar and undock only cerb if going on an explo roam and wanting to enter ded 3 and 4s. With cerb I have to forget about poking in whs I find so effectively, my options for exploration have been narrowed because of hisec issues? Well, f#@$ that mate. Also this change does nothing for balancing risk and reward since hisec crybabies still keep their 3s and 4s which in guristas space drop really worthwile stuff. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 11:45:00 -
[1183] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:[quote=Daniel Plain][quote=Roime] Basically, as folks have already said, this change is crap - guys with tengus in hisec will now switch to cerbs, ishtars or maybe drakes (can they enter?) and carry on their marry way. However why is no one thinking of frecking lowsec? We're pretty much f****d since cloakie tech3s at least gave you the option of travelling around and, you know... exploring... and with covops fits dps is far below anything allowing for fast farming. With this change and tech3's out of way its back to mwd+cloak days of isthar I guess, but why this change was needed and what good it will bring is beyond me. If they are trying to force 'cooperative game-play' on people they are totally doing it the wrong way.
Good point. It's really just another badly thought through change. Would have been more reasonable to keep the sites as are but remove them from hisec and offset the income loss by redirecting the loot chances from hisec to the new low sec and null sec profession sites.
More 4/10's in low would also have been an idea but idk how to feel about that. In general i feel there isn't enough low sec in the game apart from the Blood Raiders regions to absorb an influx of many new explorers. Everywhere else it feels already more like inner city then wild west especialy with the numbers of players that we have these days.
Or how about a proper cloaky t2/faction cruiser for exploration? Something like Pilgrim but with enough dps and tank to do the 4/10, 5/10 and some bonuses to probing. Hell CCP took their time to design the Gnosis. It could have easily be that ship with some tweaks to the stats, proper cloak and bpc's spawned in the new profession sites. Would have fit Odyssey so perfectly.
I can think of so many things that would make low/null exploration more compelling. Why can't CCP for their exploration themed expansion? |
Traiori
New Eden Renegades
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 14:00:00 -
[1184] - Quote
Quote:Or how about a proper cloaky t2/faction cruiser for exploration? Something like Pilgrim but with enough dps and tank to do the 4/10, 5/10 and some bonuses to probing
It's called a Legion. Or a Tengu if you prefer the Caldari version (which is admittedly superior for exploration in many ways).
They just stopped these ships from accessing these sites. |
Boltorano
Owner Operated Transport Service
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 14:06:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Easier solution to the T3 farming problem:
- Move all non-static 4/10s to lowsec.
This with the removal of the DSP would essentially end the Tengu scourge in highsec. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 14:25:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Traiori wrote:Quote:Or how about a proper cloaky t2/faction cruiser for exploration? Something like Pilgrim but with enough dps and tank to do the 4/10, 5/10 and some bonuses to probing It's called a Legion. Or a Tengu if you prefer the Caldari version (which is admittedly superior for exploration in many ways). They just stopped these ships from accessing these sites.
I know. Hence i thought a t2/faction cruiser to replace this specific role would be good so the low sec explorers don't get the short stick from this change aimed at hisec farmers.
|
Warr Akini
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 15:14:00 -
[1187] - Quote
Automatic scanner is infinite range, manual scanner is not? Odd. |
Jonas Staal
Silver Octopus Infernal Octopus
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 15:51:00 -
[1188] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote: ROFL! If you can't solo a DeD 4 in a non-T3 ship then you should just gimme all ur stuff and quit Eve, your bad. I can solo a Highsec DeD 4 Like in Deltole (which is what they're referring to) in a damn AF, you can at least do it in a HaC/T1 BC.
It's easier to get into a T3 than getting into a HAC (skill wise), so I kind a wonder what the improvement is here. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 15:53:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Can we please have the ability to arrange our own probes?
The current system is so painful to rearrange the preformed arrangements.
Seems like some probes are linked to others so when you resize them by dragging it changes some but not others when you have 4 selected.
The fact that it does not update sphere sizes in the scanning window makes it all worthless.
I'm trying to get into the new system, but right now it's worse than what existed before.
|
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 16:02:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D
While i am literally giggling right now at the thought of hundreds of highsec tengus becoming useless, it's the wrong way to address whats going on in highsec exploration - because those pilots will soon discover the Cerberus, or similar boats.
Randomizing of signature strengths and/or looking at loot tables (why are the invulnerability fields, as active hardeners, dropping from 4-6/10 sites - it would have maybe been better to put them in 7-10/10 sites - but then again eanms are sort of their counterpart, so i dunno) would have been much better.
Removing 4/10 from highsec would also be an option.
If you restrict access to those sites, be even more strict and disallow also t2 ships and pirate/navy variants.
|
|
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 16:20:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D While i am literally giggling right now at the thought of hundreds of highsec tengus becoming useless, it's the wrong way to address whats going on in highsec exploration - because those pilots will soon discover the Cerberus, or similar boats. Randomizing of signature strengths and/or looking at loot tables (why are the invulnerability fields, as active hardeners, dropping from 4-6/10 sites - it would have maybe been better to put them in 7-10/10 sites - but then again eanms are sort of their counterpart, so i dunno) would have been much better. Removing 4/10 from highsec would also be an option. If you restrict access to those sites, be even more strict and disallow also t2 ships and pirate/navy variants.
And I am giggling at them effecting your precious lowsec with that nerf too.At least we have a common gripe.How can you allow one type of T2 cruiser and not another? Yes I know T3 are T3's but its still a cruiser size.To be technical the pirate cruisers are really just class 1 but sitll,probably should limit them too. |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 16:38:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:Cirillith wrote:Hmm - don't know if someone already discovered that but it seems some changes were made on SISI in DED complexes and ship allowance list. HI-sec DED complexes (3/10 4/10) no longer allow T3 cruisers for example... Quote:Thank you for your bugreport titled: DED ship size problem
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. Just info for all those DED fans :D While i am literally giggling right now at the thought of hundreds of highsec tengus becoming useless, it's the wrong way to address whats going on in highsec exploration - because those pilots will soon discover the Cerberus, or similar boats. Randomizing of signature strengths and/or looking at loot tables (why are the invulnerability fields, as active hardeners, dropping from 4-6/10 sites - it would have maybe been better to put them in 7-10/10 sites - but then again eanms are sort of their counterpart, so i dunno) would have been much better. Removing 4/10 from highsec would also be an option. If you restrict access to those sites, be even more strict and disallow also t2 ships and pirate/navy variants. And I am giggling at them effecting your precious lowsec with that nerf too.At least we have a common gripe.How can you allow one type of T2 cruiser and not another? Yes I know T3 are T3's but its still a cruiser size.To be technical the pirate cruisers are really just class 1 but sitll,probably should limit them too.
None shall pass! Ok, maybe Ventures are ok, everything else too OP. :3
|
Sarmatiko
1117
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:00:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:And I am giggling at them effecting your precious lowsec with that nerf too.At least we have a common gripe.How can you allow one type of T2 cruiser and not another? Yes I know T3 are T3's but its still a cruiser size.To be technical the pirate cruisers are really just class 1 but sitll,probably should limit them too. T2 cruisers don't have scan bonus, they have lesser tank and dps than T3. Also some of them have problems with exploration fittings (Zealot with 6 High\turret slots as example). T2 allowed in exploration sites? It's ok, players now have the good reason to train for Heavy assault cruisers while waiting for proper rebalance. It's not just current dumb "Train Tengu - the only ship you need in your lifetime to do everything better than anyone else". Let's see how painlessly current Tengu addicts will switch to Cerberus if ships are "just same" and "this will change nothing".
|
Sarah Olson
Alpha United Industries Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:51:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Sarah Olson wrote: The Serpentis overseer in the 4/10 can be killed with far less dps than 600. I've done the site with a tech 2 fitted Retribution and killed the overseer with just over 200 dps without even hitting his weak resists. Its far from efficient but certainly doable and full room agro is no problem in an AF.
Well we must have met different overseers because the one I know would tank 200 dps of wrong damage type while picking his nose and laughing at you in most menacing manner. I've had that bugger rep tank 350 dps (cloaky) tengu shooting proper damage types and had to bring another guy into plex to kill it.
The Phi-Operation Protector, aka serp ded 4/10 overseer has a 75% chance to rep 1250 hp every 25 seconds. The equivalent of 50 hp a second. Even if his reps landed 100% of the time, with his 70% EM resists, 200 dps of pure EM is sufficient to break him, though it might take awhile. Since I had over 200 dps and also dealt thermal as well EM, killing him was no problem, just time consuming. |
Boltorano
Owner Operated Transport Service
29
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 18:01:00 -
[1195] - Quote
I used to run Serp 4/10 in an Ishkur with Hob IIs and meta blasters. It took a short eternity but it was possible.
In a HAM Tengu, the plex takes as little as 5 minutes. Use thermal missiles on the overseer. |
Alyssa Haginen
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 18:07:00 -
[1196] - Quote
A way to set the probes ranges all at once other then shift clicking the first and last probe would be nice. Like a set range button you can right click and set all the ranges at once. Left click the button to set your probe range to default. The default range option could be in the right click menu. Thanks |
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:00:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:Tzu Wu wrote:And I am giggling at them effecting your precious lowsec with that nerf too.At least we have a common gripe.How can you allow one type of T2 cruiser and not another? Yes I know T3 are T3's but its still a cruiser size.To be technical the pirate cruisers are really just class 1 but sitll,probably should limit them too. T2 cruisers don't have scan bonus, they have lesser tank and dps than T3. Also some of them have problems with exploration fittings (Zealot with 6 High\turret slots as example). T2 allowed in exploration sites? It's ok, players now have the good reason to train for Heavy assault cruisers while waiting for proper rebalance. It's not just current dumb "Train Tengu - the only ship you need in your lifetime to do everything better than anyone else". Let's see how painlessly current Tengu addicts will switch to Cerberus if ships are "just same" and "this will change nothing".
With my implants I have 487 dps in a Cerberus with sisters core scanning probe.Only obstacle really is being limited to just an 10m afterburner with that dps.I wont really have a problem adapting with either that ship or a sentry Ishtar.I am assuming BC are still allowed? So maybe I'll test out a Sleipnir or Drake. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:05:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote: T2 cruisers don't have scan bonus, they have lesser tank and dps than T3. Also some of them have problems with exploration fittings (Zealot with 6 High\turret slots as example). T2 allowed in exploration sites? It's ok, players now have the good reason to train for Heavy assault cruisers while waiting for proper rebalance. It's not just current dumb "Train Tengu - the only ship you need in your lifetime to do everything better than anyone else". Let's see how painlessly current Tengu addicts will switch to Cerberus if ships are "just same" and "this will change nothing".
Actually, if you're using covops and probing subsystems, cerb is doing more dps then tengu with very similar resists. Bit more buffer, thats it. If you go for mwd+cloak trick on tengu (no cloaking subsystem) it will do more dps, but have almost same buffer (again, resits are pretty much the same). However, this way the likelihood of getting caught on a gate is slightly higher. There are numerous scenarios we could consider, and while it is a fact that tengu will be better then cerb or any other tech 2 ship for this particular purpose, I can't but ask - isn't that the point of having a tech 3 cruiser? It's not like they come for free or don't require significant investment of time for skills.
Fact that Tengu is a ship of choice (among tech 3's) has mostly to do with the combination of mechanics which are not balanced per se (missiles against turrets for damage projection and dps, shield tanking flexibility in comparison to armour tanking, resistance profile suited for guristas which are the most profitable race out there for faction modules etc.).
I don't think you'll find too many people complaining about exploration tech 3's in lowsec or nullsec, and for a very simple reason - when someone notices you on d-scan, they'll get all their available corpmates and their mothers to pile on top of you in hope of either juicy kill or a good fight, so it's risky by design. Just today me and two mates lost a 6/10 to a bigger gang. We fought em, kicked them out of plex, they reshipped and got more folks in, we couldn't get reinforcements to system in time and they completed it. They got nice loot, we got butthurt a bit, but that's life in low and we accept it for what it is. How is this not balanced, and where is the need for nerf there? I don't see any.
So you see, while I understand that there are some problems with exploration farming in hisec and rewards in general at the moment (guristas being a particularly problematic faction), this tech 3 nerf is not the way to solve it because it hits the hardest the people who had nothing to do with the problem to start with. It's kind of like treating bacterial infection using antipyretics - you're treating a symptom, not the disease. At the same time, there are much simpler solutions to farming problems which were not implemented (discussed earlier in this thread).
Also while talking of tech 3s, I find it hilarious that CCP saw a need to do this change and leave tech 3 combat boosting properties intact for Odyssey. Says a lot about prioritising issues wich are actually impacting gameplay I guess. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1039
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:13:00 -
[1199] - Quote
3/10 Complex wrote: This acceleration gate is not configured to handle your Tengu. It handles: Frigate Cruiser Shuttle Rookie ship Assault Frigate Heavy Assault Cruiser Deep Space Transport Destroyer Interdictor Covert Ops Interceptor Logistics Force Recon Ship Stealth Bomber Electronic Attack Ship Heavy Interdiction Cruiser Combat Recon Ship Industrial Industrial Command Ship Blockade Runner
This is ok in my eyes, but to disallow T3s into 4/10 which allow battlecruisers is crap. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Baycity Kitty
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:45:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site
Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey |
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:05:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey
If true, it's probably the result of people screaming about all the 'useless' mining and indy skills they had to train prior to this point. Kind of like asking to be able to use 8 probes again results in being able to launch only 8 probes all at once, instead of 7 all at once. We get 8 probes, they get a reason to have mining skills if they want to use the Orca to its fullest.
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1039
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:06:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey Confirmed this in not true. http://i.imgur.com/rDZgLka.jpg Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:09:00 -
[1203] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey Confirmed this in not true. http://i.imgur.com/rDZgLka.jpg
Thank goodness, and thank you.
Now let's bury this, before CCP gets ideas. |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:18:00 -
[1204] - Quote
I can do lvl 4 missions in a Drake, we better ban T3s and Battleships from lvl 4s. Ban pirate BS from hisec incursions too, they aren't strictly necessary, only T1 BS with T1 guns allowed! Derp.
The fact that you don't NEED a T3 to do 4/10s is irrelevant. Its convenience. And unlike with lvl 4 missions and incursions, ISK is not being generated by farming faction modules in 4/10s *. They must be sold on market for ISK that already exists, if you even get a nice drop in the first place. So why such an attack on convenience/efficiency in hisec exploration? Why single out this form of hisec PvE as needing more inconvenience added? No other high end hisec PvE has ship restrictions placed on it.
The Tengu isn't even particularly unbeatable by other ships. Its just popular because missiles are very easy to use and its kinetic bonus just happens to line up with the best 4/10 site. I foresee a thousand hisec tengu exploration pilots becoming hisec incursion basilisk pilots. Fabricating ISK instead of trading for it.
I really don't see what the issue is with T3s running 4/10s.
* Yes, yes, I know, you do get some bounties in the process of running a 4/10. So technically a bit of ISK is being generated. But you get my point. |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 22:06:00 -
[1205] - Quote
Ok, seems like CCP chose the most stupid way to solve issues - to ban Tengu from high-sex exploration.
Change the location of the site or something, move 4/10 to lowsec, I take it, but to ban T3, this is just wrong.
Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.
Do not like the direction this game is heading. |
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 22:42:00 -
[1206] - Quote
Not yet,at least.Mark it down,Orcas will only be only able to carry indys come Odyssey. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 00:00:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.
I understand your disappointment but lets wait first how things will actualy turn out after Odyssey (granted i feel rather pessimistic myself). Thers still room for CCP to get at least a few things right despite all the **** ups so far. Tengu should be perfect ship for null sec profession sites should they decide to make them worthwile. Probing bonus, interdiction nullifier, cov ops cloak, enough mid slots for analyzers and additional probing mods. (under the assumption that not much dps and tank will be necessary for the sites aka rat spawns can be avoided or at least evaded). And i think or hope so that they change their mind about Tengu ban from low sec sites or leave the sites as they are but move them all to low. |
Arista Shahni
Real Simple Construction The Citadel Consortium
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 00:37:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Not going to argue with players about the nuances. This is my official "Down with this sort of thing". A major part of probing is the MIND skill, not the SP SKILL.
I play EVE because my hand eye coordination stinks, bad nerves, blah blah pity me. Scanning is perfectfor noncombat for me because it requires time, thought, and no twitch.
I do NOT live in Highsec because of my scanning habits. 4/10's being moved will not move me.
It's already hard to highsec scan due to the # of players scanning out sites. The lack of sites will NOT push me into low, it will push me out of scanning.
When has EVE ever catered to the lowest common denominator? I worked my tail off to learn everything I have and this cheapens it worse than any Medieval-like-MMO nerf I have ever played.
I mean. ..if this is going to happen at least make an Explo verison of this special keyboard: http://i.imgur.com/ujEMc8O.png
I hope someone is running a tear harvetser cause I'm bleeding them like Amarr shields right now. "I was dreaming once, and I dreampt of a world where I was nothing more than a biological fitting; a slave to the machine and crew, instead of the other way around. Don't you wonder at how easy it would have been for this scenario to happen, instead of how it actually unfolded?" |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1106
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 03:40:00 -
[1209] - Quote
Roime wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro. This is the way and mentality of the hisec bear. Killing noobs instead of helping them. gg you must be playing another game, i'm sure. because typical hisec bears in eve would not even know what warp scrambling is, let alone have the idea to actually target another player.
also, i cannot say that i remember ever seeing you in the new citizen forum.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:09:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:I understand your disappointment but lets wait first how things will actualy turn out after Odyssey (granted i feel rather pessimistic myself). Thers still room for CCP to get at least a few things right despite all the **** ups so far. Tengu should be perfect ship for null sec profession sites should they decide to make them worthwile. Probing bonus, interdiction nullifier, cov ops cloak, enough mid slots for analyzers and additional probing mods. (under the assumption that not much dps and tank will be necessary for the sites aka rat spawns can be avoided or at least evaded). And i think or hope so that they change their mind about Tengu ban from low sec sites or leave the sites as they are but move them all to low.
Yes, but why dont they rather solve the root of the problem? Instead of banning T3s, which are not the root of the problem but a consequence, why not to reconsider if a site with possible 800M loot really belongs to high-sec?
The root of the problem is the possible sweet loot. Why are not unrated sites problematic? Because to get really valuable loot out of those, you have to travel to low sec during last escalation and it is perfectly fine, that is a good design.
Remove the loot, move it to low sec, create lowsec escalation of it or whatever and it will make wonders. Its supply and demand. Thats it. But please do not tell us what should be flown :( |
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:17:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.
Good bye. Eve doesn't need people who are unable to adapt.
I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1040
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:38:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Noztra Ernaga wrote:Time to move on, unsubbing. And no, you cant have my stuff :) Spent last 2,5 month skilling for Tengu highsec/lowsec exploration and now it is obsolete. Thanks.
Good bye. Eve doesn't need people who are unable to adapt. It is not a matter of adapting, it is being squeezed out. T3 ships are solo exploration ships, CCP seems to be doing everything in there power to remove solo exploration. With the removal of T3 ships form 3/10 and 4/10 sites, inorder to do them now you must have a ton of ships scattered throught the galaxy, or have a Orca or another type of ship with a SMA to follow you around. I will admit that I feel T3 ships are too powerful for a 3/10 and largely a 4/10 site, but at the same time a T1 cruiser can do most 4/10 sites, so why sould they allow any advanced cruisers and battlecruisers in them? A Destroyer can do a 3/10 site, why allow any cruisers in them at all?
It all seems to boil down to the removal of solo exploration, which if that is what one finds entertaining then un-subbing is the only thing to do. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 07:21:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Good bye. Eve doesn't need people who are unable to adapt.
By adapting you mean to change ships and create the same pressure on 4/10 in high-sec? How is the situation chaning? Just because it wont be Tengu but other ship, the problem gets solved by miracle? No, in a few months people will start a new forum whine being beaten in 4/10 competition by other ship used by high-sec exploration veterans.
I can use a Drake and play it the same as Tengu, oh wait, I will have better and passive tank...
Just because I want CCP to solve to root of the problem instead of prohibiting certain ships, I am unable to adapt, good logic, great :) |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2886
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 08:50:00 -
[1214] - Quote
So looks like the concensus is:
- block T2 cruisers as well from hisec plexes - remove ship restrictions from lowsec plexes - decrease loot drops from hisec sites
I understand the opposition, after all CCP is trying to make exploration more player skill based instead of SP/ISK based, and that makes my ~elite hisec explorers~ very unhappy.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1041
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 09:06:00 -
[1215] - Quote
Why stop there? 3/10 sites are easily done in a destroyer, and 4/10 sites can be done in a t1 cruiser. So lets make that the restrictions.
Or the sites could be changed to make it a challenge for the ships that can enter them, a 3/10 should be difficult for a T2 cruiser, or a group of t1 cruisers. A 4/10 site should be a challenge for a command ship but manageable for a group of battle cruisers.
The loot drops need not change. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
32
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 09:15:00 -
[1216] - Quote
It seems I have found an small issue with modules/rigs intended to improve Rangefinding. Please read this, |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 09:55:00 -
[1217] - Quote
People were complaining about Tengus, so Tengus get banned from 4/10. Lets place our bets which ship is going to be the next victim in a few months :)
What about unrated sites, are there any new ship restrictions? Or is it only Tengu banned from 3/10 a 4/10? Thanks. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:12:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Roime wrote:So looks like the concensus is: - block T2 cruisers as well from hisec plexes - remove ship restrictions from lowsec plexes - decrease loot drops from hisec sites I understand the opposition, after all CCP is trying to make exploration more player skill based instead of SP/ISK based, and that makes my ~elite hisec explorers~ very unhappy.
Well my suggestions would be:
- Randomize sig strenghts - no more farming DED's (= very simple solution, eh CCP?). This would complicate navigation in wh space tho, so I'd try to find a solution to compensate for that (perhaps making all kinds of wh's the same sig strenght? Dunno, haven't really thought that one out.).
- Ban tech 3's from DED3/10's but leave 4/10's alone - Give DSPs back (for deep safe probing) - Remove DED 4/10s from highsec OR fix loot tables so there's more likelyhood for better drops in lowsec in comparison to highsec - Bring back DED 1 and 2/10s to lowsec in form of scannable (using this new discovery scanners) signatures which pop on overview when warped to (kinda like FW plexes). Also balance them so that all rats have to be killed in first room(s), and faction rat is a bit tougher to kill, hence providing time for potential engagements to happen (kind of like serp 4/10). Make these spawn across constelations, promoting roaming and pvp in the process.
Some other things: - give back timer when doing system scan (I can't see how long it will take untill it ends atm) - give back the list of signatures discovered by discovery scanner - I don't want to get nauseous by spinning around all the time
and finally - learn to manage expectations, becasue they determine satisfaction in the end. I think you failed miserably on this one with Odyssey. Just look at these qoutes from Odyssey page: - "Some will encounter sites never discovered before, and others will be confronted with intriguing tests of skill and resolve. Ample rewards await those that return from their journeys with ships intact., and - "There is now more among the stars, enticing even the most experienced veterans to explore.".
What 'more' are you referring to, since nothing really new has been added? No new sites have been announced so far, there have been hints at rebalancing loot but its still all in the hint category with only 2 weeks left to go. If anything, there is actually less among the stars at the moment, less probe types to start with, and I do hope you don't think that silly minigame presents a " tests of skill and resolve", or that it will make "most experienced veterans" flock to exploration sites . |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:13:00 -
[1219] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: It is not a matter of adapting, it is being squeezed out. T3 ships are solo exploration ships, CCP seems to be doing everything in there power to remove solo exploration.
You can still do solo exploration, you just need another ship for it if you want to do it in highsec.
Quote:With the removal of T3 ships form 3/10 and 4/10 sites, inorder to do them now you must have a ton of ships scattered throught the galaxy, or have a Orca or another type of ship with a SMA to follow you around.
You may or may not have noticed that the signatures have become easier to scan down, at least in HS. You don't need a scanbonused ship anymore to find these sites. Many battlecruisers have utility highslots for a probe launcher. Or you could go refit in one of the many many many stations.
Quote:I will admit that I feel T3 ships are too powerful for a 3/10 and largely a 4/10 site, but at the same time a T1 cruiser can do most 4/10 sites, so why sould they allow any advanced cruisers and battlecruisers in them? A Destroyer can do a 3/10 site, why allow any cruisers in them at all?
With the new skill requirements, it will become easier to specialize in tech2 ships, giving newer players more variety in ships. At some point you have to draw the line for what ships you want to allow in the complexes. It seems fine to me to not allow cruisers with battleship tank/dps in the beginner complexes.
Quote: It all seems to boil down to the removal of solo exploration, which if that is what one finds entertaining then un-subbing is the only thing to do.
See above. You can still do solo exploration. You just have to adapt. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:14:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:What about unrated sites, are there any new ship restrictions? Or is it only Tengu banned from 3/10 a 4/10? Thanks.
All strategic cruisers have been excluded from those plexes. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
|
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:20:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: With the new skill requirements, it will become easier to specialize in tech2 ships, giving newer players more variety in ships. At some point you have to draw the line for what ships you want to allow in the complexes. It seems fine to me to not allow cruisers with battleship tank/dps in the beginner complexes.
DED4's are beginner complexes? I thought those would be DED1 and 2's but hey... |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:21:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:By adapting you mean to change ships and create the same pressure on 4/10 in high-sec? How is the situation changing? Just because it wont be Tengu but other ship, the problem gets solved by miracle? No, in a few months people will start a new forum whine being beaten in 4/10 competition by other ship used by high-sec exploration veterans.
So, when there is effectively no change, why do you whine about it and threaten to unsubscribe? Why don't you just change to another ship and go on with your merry life?
Quote:I can use a Drake and play it the exactly same way, oh wait, I will have better and passive tank... I want to fly Tengu, because I find the ship more fun than boring Drake.
Low- and Nullsec has plenty of opportunities to use your tengu for exploration.
Quote:The problem is a site in safe high-sec generating loot worth up to almost 1B. Its a matter of supply and demand. If the site really is created for new players, then such a valuable loot has nothing to do in there, unless it is a part of lowsec expedition.
The value of the loot is another problem, yes. If the T3 nerf doesn't play out, I'm sure CCP will take a look at the loottables/site distribution again. For now I think taking it slowly is the best path to go. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:23:00 -
[1223] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:All strategic cruisers have been excluded from those plexes.
I can somehow accept that in case Battlecruisers are still allowed. Too bad I do not want to fly that boring Drake ship, so for me it means to skill something new and accept 2 month of Tengu training as time wasted :(
You might say its not much, but for me it is, my toon is relatively new with just 15M SP, so this really hurts. |
Sarmatiko
1118
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:27:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote: By adapting you mean to change ships and create the same pressure on 4/10 in high-sec? How is the situation changing? Just because it wont be Tengu but other ship, the problem gets solved by miracle? No, in a few months people will start a new forum whine being beaten in 4/10 competition by other ship used by high-sec exploration veterans.
Yes! So don't cry, change ships (to Cerberus, it will be easy) and "create the same pressure". But looking at the amount of tears it's obvious that Tengu was the key to that pressure, because suddenly you don't have ship scan bonus anymore and now you need to compete with all those "peasants on T1\T2".
I, for one, welcome your leave from highsec exploration
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:27:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:DED4's are beginner complexes? I thought those would be DED1 and 2's but hey...
Let's see.
- Located in High Sec - Enemies are BC and below (With the exception of the 1 BS in Serpentis 4/10) - Can be done by 4 week old Newbie without breaking a sweat
What would you call it? I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:29:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Sylvia Nardieu wrote:DED4's are beginner complexes? I thought those would be DED1 and 2's but hey... Let's see. - Located in High Sec - Enemies are BC and below (With the exception of the 1 BS in Serpentis 4/10) - Can be done by 4 week old Newbie without breaking a sweat What would you call it? A broken plex.
To be honest imo 4/10s dropping 300m in loot in highsec when it's just BC and below in the plex is disproportionate risk/reward, T3s or not. It's not like they're even that uncommon.
4/10s should be equivalent to one of the level 4 Worlds Collide rooms, minus the instant aggro. Make the plex more than just "burn to the satellite as fast as you can whilst tanking the anemic damage from everything on grid" |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:32:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:So don't cry, change ships (to Cerberus, it will be easy) and "create the same pressure". But looking at the amount of tears it's obvious that Tengu was the key to that pressure, because suddenly you don't have ship scan bonus anymore and now you need to compete with all those "peasants on T1\T2". I, for one, welcome your leave from highsec exploration
With the new modules and more comfortable scanning? I can guarantee you that I will be able to scan sites with any decent ship as effective as now with a Tengu :)
When someone uses second account and scans with a Heron/Buzzard and then warps to a 4/10 with a dmg specialized ship, it is ok? Just because he/she pays for two accounts, its acceptable? :) |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:35:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: What would you call it?
- Located in High Sec
Misplaced
Quote:- Enemies are BC and below (With the exception of the 1 BS in Serpentis 4/10) I mostly do Serp, so obviously others are poorly balanced.
Quote:Can be done by 4 week old Newbie without breaking a sweat 4 weeks w/o breaking a sweat? You serious? Please send me an evemon plan for that char. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1041
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:37:00 -
[1229] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: With the new skill requirements, it will become easier to specialize in tech2 ships, giving newer players more variety in ships. At some point you have to draw the line for what ships you want to allow in the complexes. It seems fine to me to not allow cruisers with battleship tank/dps in the beginner complexes.
Apparently you did not look at the training time of the new skill requirements, they are about the same amount of time now as they were before. How does that make it any easier? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:28:00 -
[1230] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Apparently you did not look at the training time of the new skill requirements, they are about the same amount of time now as they were before. How does that make it any easier?
You are right, they switched the prerequisites to something more useful. My bad. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:37:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:4 weeks w/o breaking a sweat? You serious? Please send me an evemon plan for that char.
I don't use evemon, but a passive Drake with meta4 tank/launchers will be more than enough for 4/10s and doesn't take an eternity to train. Don't nail me on the 4 weeks, my point is that these complexes are very easy to do. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1041
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:55:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Apparently you did not look at the training time of the new skill requirements, they are about the same amount of time now as they were before. How does that make it any easier? You are right, they switched the prerequisites to something more useful. My bad. None of the new skills are any more useful than the old ones, with the exception of assault ships which had no bearing on the effectiveness of HAC. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1041
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:02:00 -
[1233] - Quote
A thought of DED complexes, loot, location and farming. The eve wiki states that 1/10 Frigates 2/10 Destroyers 3/10 Cruisers 4/10 Battlecruisers 5/10 Battleships. What if the were true to the point of exclusion, a 4/10 would only allow Battlecruisers and Advanced Battlecruisers in, a 5/10 would only allow Battleships and advanced Battleships, ect. The loot tables would be set on the security status they were in, High C-type modules, low B-type modules, empire null a-type modules, sov X-type modules. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:07:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:None of the new skills are any more useful than the old ones, with the exception of assault ships which had no bearing on the effectiveness of HAC.
Recons: Cloaking IV is immensely useful, especially for the Force recons, the Covert Ops squill isn't HICs: Grav Physics IV is required for the Bubblegen, so adding it as prereq is more useful than Weapon Upgrades V Command Ships: The Warfare skills are more useful for a CS than the HAC/Logistics skill I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1041
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:09:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:None of the new skills are any more useful than the old ones, with the exception of assault ships which had no bearing on the effectiveness of HAC. Recons: Cloaking IV is immensely useful, especially for the Force recons, the Covert Ops squill isn't HICs: Grav Physics IV is required for the Bubblegen, so adding it as prereq is more useful than Weapon Upgrades V Command Ships: The Warfare skills are more useful for a CS than the HAC/Logistics skill My apologies, I was looking at Heavy Assault ships. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
150
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:30:00 -
[1236] - Quote
4/10s will allow BCs and Orcas, but not a T3? .... That's just silly and makes no sense.
I completely understand the problem with T3s in hi-sec. I use a Tengu all the time, and it is utterly broken for hi-sec exploration. But this is a typical "old-skool CCP" hamfisted fix. Instead of addressing the problem, they smash the symptom as hard as they can with a nerfbat. The answer is simple. Just lower the rewards in hi-sec and increase them in low/null. There is no reason at all that 500mil mods should be dropping in hi-sec. None. If you remove the ridiculously profitability, then the experienced T3 pilots aren't going to spend time probing them down, thus allowing the up-and-coming noob to cut his teeth on hi-sec plexes.
And note that I say this as somebody who is a posterboy for poor sportsmanship in hi-sec exploration. I will jump into a site some poor scrub is doing and race past him to the end. I will steal juicy mods from a faction wreck and dare the poor ******* to engage me. And I will do it with no qualms whatsoever. Cuz this is EvE. There is nice expensive loot to be had in hi-sec, and without hesitation I will stomp on the little guy to take it from him. But remove that nice loot, and I'll go elsewhere. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:35:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote: I don't use evemon, but a passive Drake with meta4 tank/launchers will be more than enough for 4/10s and doesn't take an eternity to train. Don't nail me on the 4 weeks, my point is that these complexes are very easy to do.
All right, I agree that 4/10's might be fairly easy even for a relatively new character, but how is that fact in any way related with these changes? If anything, it only serves to show how unnecessary changes are since you can get to a level playing field fairly quickly. First and foremost, we should ask what is the problem being addressed with these changes and whether it is being solved. Presumably, the problem is farming and storming of these plexes by older/more experienced characters. Currently they are using tech 3's for that, but they could be use pirate or tech2 cruisers for what is worth and still strom em faster then your average newbie. So, you see, the problem is not about whether tech 3's should be allowed into those sites, it's about removing or at least reducing the possibility of farming playstyle.
Are they adressing that problem? I don't think so.
There are many different (and more creative) options for solving farming issues without reducing usability of tech 3's in low sec, I hope that my previous posts have provided some of those potential solutions. Unfortunately, it seems that making one variable random (sig strength) is harder then removing a potential state from another variable altogether (tech3 access to these plexes) without considering wider implications of such moves. Again, I'm all against farming - I was in favour of removal of static deds from high and lowsec and think that it would be best to prevent people from filtering signatures in order to find juicy stuff as soon as possible. Make explorers sweat it out in order to find good stuff, but also let them use the best tools out there. I mean, while at it why not remove virtue implants, sister probes and modules or anything else that can provide 'unfair' advantage. Its not like tech 3's are premium items available only to selected few. If you're serious about exploration, you'll train for them, the same way you'll train for a guardian if you want to provide armor fleet logistics. Its simple as that. |
MIkhail Illiad
Fevered Imaginings
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:58:00 -
[1238] - Quote
CCP, what problem does this fix?
Why would you make changes to the probes themselves to make them easier to use, then eliminate the need to use them in the first place by having the sites show up on a UI? I understand that they then have to be probed down, but the very fact that these things display on your HUD as you jump into a system seems to be totally contradictory to the idea of exploration. There once was an interesting signature here... It has long since disapeared.-á |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:33:00 -
[1239] - Quote
The problem is that I do not know what to do next.
Replacing my Tengu with a Drake is indeed a solution unless they decide to ban BCs later as well...
It is not so easy when precious time is involved (skill training). For me this is a game breaking change from exploration perspective and am affraid of another attack from the devs in the future. I don't have 60M SP and cannot fly every other ship, so my Tengu training is a complete waste. Got sick of missions, dedicated over two months of training to Tengu to be able to start with exploration and now it's useless. If I had known this, I would have trained Drake from the start and would have ended up with a ship sutiable for high-sec and low-sec. This exactly was my Tengu (high-sec and low-sec exploration ship), but now I am left with only a low-sec boat in my hands... |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
124
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:48:00 -
[1240] - Quote
If you can fly a Tengu you can fly a Gila, which is more than capable of doing 4/10s. Stop acting like the world is ending. |
|
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:42:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Durzel wrote:If you can fly a Tengu you can fly a Gila, which is more than capable of doing 4/10s. Stop acting like the world is ending.
That isnt the point |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 17:29:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Whats wrong with "farming" 4/10s? People farm missions and incursions in hisec with any ship they want. They generate ISK out of thin air while doing so. 4/10s in certain areas of space can drop modules that the market has deemed are worth 400-500mil. So what. So people running those sites are traveling around, competing with each other, and then interacting with the market. Rather than sitting around generating ISK at their leisure. Sounds like the least broken form of hisec PvE to me.
Its also fun. You will not find a race to the loot in lowsec. Just sitting around cloaked wasting time, or getting ganked. Not as exciting or fun. Not conducive to those with little play time.
You can't balance the game on what prices modules sell for on the market. Prices change and are governed by several completely unrelated factors. If you move 4/10s to lowsec for example, its not going to change the fact that nobody cares about 4/10s outside of Guristas and Angels. If you ban T3s, you're mostly just banning the Tengu, nobody is running the sought after 4/10s in a Proteus or a Legion if they don't want to lose sites. And as I stated before, I can beat Tengus to loot in 4/10s, Tengus are just popular because they are convenient. They aren't so hot at missions anymore, they're crap for incursions, and they're banned from exploration. I feel bad for people that want to fly Tengus in hisec. They've finally been made completely useless in hisec in a backwards effort to balance out... competition? popularity? fun? convenience? I have no idea...
A unique situation has arisen based on value that the players/market have assigned to certain items, creating fierce competition and fun PvE that isn't focused on shooting gobs of red crosses, or marred by mixing direct PvP with PvE and all the problems that brings, and people want to flatten it out and make things more uniform. |
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:07:00 -
[1243] - Quote
[quote=Unezka Turigahl]Whats wrong with "farming" 4/10s? People farm missions and incursions in hisec with any ship they want. They generate ISK out of thin air while doing so. 4/10s in certain areas of space can drop modules that the market has deemed are worth 400-500mil. So what. So people running those sites are traveling around, competing with each other, and then interacting with the market. Rather than sitting around generating ISK at their leisure. Sounds like the least broken form of hisec PvE to me.
This sums up my feelings about it as well.Hisec incursions are Ok but not hisec exploration? Wheres the reasoning behind this? Oh it's too easy you say? So is an incursion with logi V pilots repping you non-stop. |
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies Happy Cartel
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:13:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Rammix wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. -- THIS. You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back. BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more. p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons. THIS ten times over. even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished.
+1
|
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:16:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Every once in a while I find myself doing a period of hisec exploration. Just resubbed so I'm bulking up the wallet a bit before heading back to null.
And I've done my fair share of low and null explo as well.
Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end.
Well I suppose now that t3's won't be allowed it'll be a lot quicker to kill whoever tries stealing those cans. Doubtul this nerf would stop any of this farming behaviour though. There will be a very SHORT period of adaptation and things will be the same again. Maybe even worse!
All those whiners wanting to pull more targets into lowsec....you know, it's usually not worth the time it takes to complete any Watch or (especially) Vigil escalations. More times than not, no loot drops. So all the arguments about the payout for risk are...invalid. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:27:00 -
[1246] - Quote
The CCP product team (those driving the direction of this game) - must not play this game.
concerning T3 - as someone stated before, just rework the loot tables to only allow the magical loot to drop in lowsec and nullsec. thats it, problem solved. you will never see another t3 in any highsec plex again. no need to rework the gates.
. . . . . .
Now back to the main topic from which this thread has been derailed.. actual probing mechanics...
Please CCP, reconsider the removal of Deep Space Probes, the mechanic that replaces them is not there.... AND please rework your current probe launch code to allow 2 or 3 saved user defined launch patterns instead of that 8 probe launch solution you currently have out there... |
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies Happy Cartel
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:59:00 -
[1247] - Quote
I've tested the probing mechanics, and I do not like the new controls at all, it feels like I'm moving one probe around, the scaling and positioning controls are the worst.
I'd really like to read the user stories behind these changes. It definitely feels like they are dumbing down the probe mechanics.
Why the requirement of having 7 probes ? Is it because of a code smell?
I get how a single core probe might not be useful after these changes, but if I'm not mistaken its possible to scan down a signature with just 4 probes. Why remove that?
Why do the probes need to magically reappear in our cargo holds when we jump/dock?
I really don't get it, if you forget your probes. they should be left behind. It allows for more player interactions in many ways! You guys also do realize there might be a few reasons why people WANT to leave probes behind? I'm baffled why you think its better to cater to forgetful people.
|
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:23:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Myrkala wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Rammix wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:What about the magically reappearing probes when one jumps system? Forgetting probes caused all sorts of cascades from not being able to find targets due to derp to getting locked into wormholes and having to figure out ways to get out or be rescued. -- THIS. You took away a part of gameplay, which often was a source of some player interactions. Please give it back. BTW, currently on SiSi if you manually call your probes back you have to wait before they return. But if you just leave the system, you get them back instantly. Very odd, if not more. p.s. The same about probes' lifespan. They need to be mortal. By the same reasons. THIS ten times over. even disregarding the use case of deliberately placing probes in a system for strategic reasons, forgetting your probes is not a bug in the UI; it's you being bad at the game you are playing and it SHOULD be punished. +1 Also leaving probes were good for finding quick undock save spots. So yeah instantly back probes are not so cool.
About 4/10 like many people before me said it would be great if you just place them in low sec . |
Perris Korat
PKor A.T. Metals and Mechanical The Interstellar Contract Agency
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:29:00 -
[1249] - Quote
CCP!!
This minimum probe amount requirement to launch probes HAS to change. Either that, or you need to make sure that probers know well in advance that they cannot probe without having 8 probes onboard their ship.
I have always used 5 probes to scan. I am in a WH, in a probing ship with only 5 probes onboard, just like I have always been for the last two years. When I launch SiSi, currently I am unable to probe my way out of this WH, because I can't launch ANY probes due to the minimum restriction. I don't have access to more probes. I am in a WH.
Honestly, these probing changes feel like you guys came up with some new gameplay ideas, and you're modifying the basics of probing to suit this new gameplay without considering all the other ways people have been using the tools since forever. When you made the switch to the 8th probe, you made some people happy, but you have to fix it so people can use any amount of probes they want, whether it's 8 or 5 or 1.
Please fix this ridiculously broken change.
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
751
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:05:00 -
[1250] - Quote
I agree that only being able to launch a predefined number of probes is a negative. As of now the only way to get around this restriction is to launch the preset 8, recall the number you don't want to use then, adjust the probes manually. This isn't a time saver; it's a time waster.
Today I finally found a data site to test the new mechanics. It was a hugely frustrating experience to say the least. After "playing" the hacking mini game (which seemed to me to involve no skill at all, just a bunch of random clicking) I got the mini can explosion. The cans are so small that I could barely see them as they were ejected into space. As a result many of them were out of proximity to my ship and had disappeared before I could act to try to retrieve any. Not only are they small and difficult to see they also move pretty quickly. The end result was that I only captured 2 mini cans (one contained datasheets, the other contained electronic parts).
The whole ordeal left a bad taste in my mouth. If this is what we're being forced into then at least give us decent rewards for putting up with the major frustrations of using the new system. The paltry amount of items I recovered didn't justify the time I spent and certainly wouldn't justify having multiple people involved.
I'm afraid, however, that it's too late in the process for any of these major pains to be corrected before Odyssey's release. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
|
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:28:00 -
[1251] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Every once in a while I find myself doing a period of hisec exploration. Just resubbed so I'm bulking up the wallet a bit before heading back to null. And I've done my fair share of low and null explo as well. Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end. Well I suppose now that t3's won't be allowed it'll be a lot quicker to kill whoever tries stealing those cans. Doubtul this nerf would stop any of this farming behaviour though. There will be a very SHORT period of adaptation and things will be the same again. Maybe even worse! All those whiners wanting to pull more targets into lowsec....you know, it's usually not worth the time it takes to complete any Watch or (especially) Vigil escalations. More times than not, no loot drops. So all the arguments about the payout for risk are...invalid.
This.Had it happen today,overloaded my mwd guy still beat me,was going to loot him but got to it 1 second before I could.We need more stories like this.CCP seriously needs to rethink this "expansion" |
Space Wanderer
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:30:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Perris Korat wrote:This minimum probe amount requirement to launch probes HAS to change.
Agreed. The scanning mechanic requires only 4 probes to scan down a sig, and they still do. If for any reason I lose some of the probes I don't want to get stuck in a WH just because CCP decided that the probe launcher wouldn't be able to launch only 4 probes....
For god's sake, what are you thinking at CCP to have come up with so many sandbox-killing changes to the scanning interface?!? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1044
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:25:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:SFM Hobb3s wrote:Every once in a while I find myself doing a period of hisec exploration. Just resubbed so I'm bulking up the wallet a bit before heading back to null. And I've done my fair share of low and null explo as well. Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end. Well I suppose now that t3's won't be allowed it'll be a lot quicker to kill whoever tries stealing those cans. Doubtul this nerf would stop any of this farming behaviour though. There will be a very SHORT period of adaptation and things will be the same again. Maybe even worse! All those whiners wanting to pull more targets into lowsec....you know, it's usually not worth the time it takes to complete any Watch or (especially) Vigil escalations. More times than not, no loot drops. So all the arguments about the payout for risk are...invalid. This.Had it happen today,overloaded my mwd guy still beat me,was going to loot him but got to it 1 second before I could.We need more stories like this.CCP seriously needs to rethink this "expansion" It just happens to me the other day also, I was doing a serpentis narcotics warehouse, I am halfway through the rats in the last room and a tengu warps in, adrenaline shoots through me, I knew what I needed to do, I set my guns at the stronghold and let them fire, the tengu does the same, then the explosion happens and for a moment it seemed like time stopes for the both of us "who got the can?" The tengu got it, two things went through my head at that point, shoot the can I might lose my ship but the can will be gone. And MWD to it and try to steal it before he gets it. In the end the tengu was faster got the loot and ran.
That was so much fun IMO, I didn't even care that I lost out on loot after a bit, the only thing was "Next time I see you tengu, I will win the race!" Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:27:00 -
[1254] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote: Some of the most adrenaline-filled fun I've had is getting into a GSO only to find another t3 there, and then competing with them for the bacon at the end. The risk of some good pvp here is a lot higher than some might expect, especially if I or the other guy decide to steal from the can at the end.
Agreed. Stuff like this is half the fun of hisec 4/10s.
Your name is familiar to me also. I'm sure we've met in a site or two. |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth R.E.P.O.
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 22:31:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Scan result window needs some love:
- resizing the columns is missing
- there is not seperator line and space between the columns, makes it hard to read when you don't have the scan window beeing covering a huge part of the screen
- you say it is showing AU and KM now, it doesnt, only AU
- would be nice to be able to change the order of the columns
Thanks, Regards Gal
|
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Talocan United
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 22:56:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Hipotetical situation. I use an 8 probe formation. 4 in the center, 4 on the outside in a 2D plane and I want to resize/move only one of the two groups independently crom the other by selecting them. Would I be able to? |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 01:28:00 -
[1257] - Quote
At this point, I'm thinking that the utter lack of Dev feedback is fairly indicative that these changes are set in stone... Lovely. Huzzah for a rebirth of the old CCP! |
Sir John Halsey
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 03:46:00 -
[1258] - Quote
I trained for Tengu because a lot of other people were using it. Now, without it, we will see more variation in HS exploration.
Thing is, something else came into my mind... A lot of Tengus were used in HS exploration. Probably most of them :-) After this ban, what will happen with their price? Becoming useless in such big numbers, will it go down?
Also, a lot of those juicy gurista mods were used by those Tengus :-) I'm wondering how this will affect exploration in Caldari space when the demand of those mods which were used by rich Tengu explorers will go down. |
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 04:28:00 -
[1259] - Quote
We can only launch a fixed amount of probes. We launch these probes in fixed formations. Which can be temporarily altered, but still. If we don't have the correct amount of probes required by the launcher we cannot launch any probes AT ALL.
So I must ask this question again:
Why not boil everything down to ONE probe?
Also, the 8th probe in the last patch was a troll, right? It's exactly the same like before with 7, only that the middle probe is slightly set off and the 8th probe stacked on top. |
Space Wanderer
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 06:59:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Sir John Halsey wrote:Thing is, something else came into my mind... A lot of Tengus were used in HS exploration. Probably most of them :-)
i doubt it. Ever heard of Interdiction nullifier? There goes the theory that most tengus are used in highsec. Some subsystems might drop in price, though.
Sir John Halsey wrote:Also, a lot of those juicy gurista mods were used by those Tengus :-) I'm wondering how this will affect exploration in Caldari space when the demand of those mods which were used by rich Tengu explorers will go down.
Will it? I tend to think that the modules will still be bought and installed on the next highsec exploration ship of choice...
|
|
Quinn Corvez
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 07:05:00 -
[1261] - Quote
Question: does the descovery scanner show wormhole signatures without the player having to press any buttons?
... If so, this could kill some of the activity of wormhole space. If a player is active is space (mining, pve, camping a wormhole) and he notice a new signature pop up, he will mostlikely POS-up. How is this good for wormhole space?
Wormholes should not be detectable with the descovery scanner, you should need scan probes to detect them. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1469
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 07:43:00 -
[1262] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote:Question: does the descovery scanner show wormhole signatures without the player having to press any buttons?
... If so, this could kill some of the activity of wormhole space. If a player is active is space (mining, pve, camping a wormhole) and he notice a new signature pop up, he will mostlikely POS-up. How is this good for wormhole space?
Wormholes should not be detectable with the descovery scanner, you should need scan probes to detect them.
I'm starting to guess that those within CCP who decided on these changes, don't actually do WHs or heavy probing.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Absolon Echerie
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 08:14:00 -
[1263] - Quote
So use faction cruisers if they still fit.. a gila can do a very fast as well.
i am happy i moved to null |
Mr Dynamic
University of Caille Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 10:15:00 -
[1264] - Quote
MY PERFECT PROBE ALT HAS WASTED SP
nobody will have isk ready. fu sisipee every other bid in this thread is an alt of mine, pick the cheapest one and I'll pay that much.-á |
Lokitoki81
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 10:54:00 -
[1265] - Quote
I hear winter expansion is called "World of EVEcraft", or was it "Mists of New Eden".
PATCH NOTES.
1) New 1-click function will launch your probes, get the target pinpointed, warp to target, point target and ping your IRC channel of choice. (You will also be able to configure your ship to automatically make a fleet, autoinvite and light a cyno for you)
2) New feature will make suggestions on what target to shoot based on your and the target ships velocity, transversial, range and many other factors. You can also configure your ship to auto-attack when these factors are optimal for an attack.
3) CAP (Combat Auto Pilot). This feature will navigate your precious ship through the fears of battle, minimizing your incoming damage. Only one-click and you will be as safe as mathematics allow. Can also be configured to warp out if you risk losing your ship to a premade safespot made by CAP at an earlier stage.
STOP DUMBING DOWN EVE!!!
1) We dont want it to be easy 2) We dont want it to be wow-friendly 3) We dont want everything automatic 4) We dont want ALL players to be able to do ALL things
These changes to probing are horrible, there was NO NEED TO CHANGE it. And who came up with the idea of always launching 7 probes at first? Does he even play the game? Launching probes in fixed formations? Are you serious? It got to be a troll. Probes magically gets back to your ship on system change? Orly?
Everything that took some sort of skill with probing is now gone.
Having to launch probes 1 by 1 and put them in formation under pressure was a big part of pvp probing and a good prober was the diffrence between a really nice fight and failure. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:30:00 -
[1266] - Quote
Lokitoki81 wrote: Launching probes in fixed formations? ... Everything that took some sort of skill with probing is now gone. ... Having to launch probes 1 by 1 and put them in formation under pressure was a big part of pvp probing and a good prober was the diffrence between a really nice fight and failure.
Out of all bad design choices they made, you are complaining about probably the only one remotely resembling what people were asking for (ability to launch more probes then one and having formations) and which - with a bit of tweaking, could be useful. The implementation is flawed atm, but please, don't tell me that you consider clicking eight times and distributing probes in whatever your favourite pattern is to be a skill. |
Galphii
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
139
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:41:00 -
[1267] - Quote
I'd like to see another button next to the 'launch pinpoint formation' button.
For starters, 4au is hardly 'pinpoint'. The extra button to be added would be a 1au spread and would gain this esteemed title, while the 4au button would be called something along the lines of 'broad formation'. This would minimise the tedious repositioning of 7+ probes as you move below 4au to do actual pinpointing Otherwise the system looks pretty good. X |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:43:00 -
[1268] - Quote
The new coloured bar for scan results looks nice, but the font is too big so I can't see what type of site I scanned without making the scanner window rediculously wide. I couldn't find a way to resize single columns of the results.
On a related note you used to be able to see the name/type of a site when you moved your cursor over the green icon on system map once the site was scanned to 100%. This doesn't work anymore, the name (or any rightclick options) only appears on system map now after you chose some action on the site from the scanner window, like warping to it. I'd like to see the site type on the map again before I choose an action. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1469
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:44:00 -
[1269] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote: The implementation is flawed atm, but please, don't tell me that you consider clicking eight times and distributing probes in whatever your favourite pattern is to be a skill.
Having to click 8 times yes I agree. Distributing probes however is really the only thing that resembles a challenge in regards to probing. Its the only thing that players can be unique in and improve upon. So unless they redo the entire concept of probing, adding in preset formations only dumbs the current system down almost to a state of pointlessness.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. Improving NPE
|
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:44:00 -
[1270] - Quote
I would like to see 2-3 slots for saving custom formations consisting of whichever number of probes one finds to be adequate to his/her needs and then - when clicking those formations, I'd like probes to launch instantly. That's pretty much it for tweaks needed. Although revamped system of resizing and moving probes annoyed me initially I now find it to be quite good, so no changes needed there. |
|
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:57:00 -
[1271] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote: Having to click 8 times yes I agree. Distributing probes however is really the only thing that resembles a challenge in regards to probing. Its the only thing that players can be unique in and improve upon. So unless they redo the entire concept of probing, adding in preset formations only dumbs the current system down almost to a state of pointlessness.
Well, ye all veteran players will be crying about dumbing down the game due to preset patterns, but let's be realistic here for a second - wouldn't most people have one of those diamond shaped patterns saved anyway if we were provided ability to make custom patterns. I mean, yes it makes things easier for newbies but its far from rocket science. The problem is not the availibilty of preset patterns, problem is the fact that someone had the bright idea that we need 7 probes and 7 probes only, thus reducing options in probing immensly.
For me the beauty of probing is mainly in combat department - combining d-scan and probing to get a warp-in on people without them ever seeing your probes out in the first place. As for pve and navigation purposes, everyone will have their preferences (dobule squares, cubes, what not) and that's why I think that ability to have custom patterns + to launch whatever number of probes you want should be returned (the latter will happen from what I understood). |
Otto Jaeger
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 16:36:00 -
[1272] - Quote
Lokitoki81 wrote:I hear winter expansion is called "World of EVEcraft", or was it "Mists of New Eden".
PATCH NOTES.
STOP DUMBING DOWN EVE!!!
1) We dont want it to be easy 2) We dont want it to be wow-friendly 3) We dont want everything automatic 4) We dont want ALL players to be able to do ALL things
These changes to probing are horrible, there was NO NEED TO CHANGE it. Probes magically gets back to your ship on system change? Orly?
Everything that took some sort of skill with probing is now gone.
Having to launch probes 1 by 1 and put them in formation under pressure was a big part of pvp probing and a good prober was the diffrence between a really nice fight and failure.
Agreed. Was it really nesessary in order to "open" exploration to masses to make it so f*cking easy? Actually probing down things can be done all in one click - why not do it that way?
right now, when I tryed scanning, i had to fiddle a bit with scanning range of the probes not moving the porbes at all to find the site. 32 AU -> 8AU -> 4AU -> 1AU. And my skills aren't that good!!! In this case i owuld rather have "Probe it all in 5s" button because this non challenging task looks pretty stupid thing to do. Whatever it is it's not that exciting Exploring CCP promised us. It's half done piece of crap.
Also why do you need to change the names of sites. Whats wrong with those fancy names like Magnetometric, Gravimtetric.. what so exciting and "cool" about radar site, ore site... ?
On EVE i like that fact that you can be good at somehting as player. In PvP, Trade, Grinding missions, Scanning,... regardless your character skills (as long as you have the minimum requirements). By simplifying the scanning so it's open to masses - you took all the challange from it. What is there now is just mechanical scaling down the probes range. And quite frankly, as launching 7 probes in predefined formation, this could be done by computer too.
So far, what i do like about new exploration: New scannign UI, Jump effects (stargate jumps, wormole wanna-be-jump-effect sucks.)
That's about it. I have this strong feeling that Odyssey is half done expansion at best. With the todays Launcher deployment fiasco I'm getting this feeling, that CCP is slowly pooping big piece of .... on player base in order to attrect new playes bored with theme park MMOs... Also that expansions are done like exams on university - in hurry and with the "lets see how it ends" approach.
I really hope that feedback from players is so important as des say and not only to have some "alibi" while ignoring most of it.
I really really hope Odyssey, when it ocmes out, will be great as CCP promised.. but so far i DO have bad feeling about it.
Prove me wrong in it. At least in exploration, the main issue of the whole expansion.
|
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 19:17:00 -
[1273] - Quote
i think one dev wich play 30min per day, decide to leave jove space, and do something that normal ppl do, and on ded 4/10 t3 take from him lot from plex, and this is revange, it is awsome that people wich play 6h+ per day give feedback and devs do what they wish thats way or another, i think next expansion be great, in hi sec only level 1 curier missions, in low only level 2 curier at wh level 1 mining at low level 3 curier, anything else only in jove space
there are psychiatric hospitals more normal then this changes |
Zeradn
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 21:05:00 -
[1274] - Quote
Well, the changes do reduce the tedium of PvE probing. At the same time it also has the potential to change the balance of a PvP engagement. Especially with the probes automatically repositioning when you mouse-drag to resize the scan range, this has become frustratingly easy. Probing went from one end of the spectrum to the other end with just one expansion. Say good bye to high sec exploration. Every player and their 1-day alts will be running sites there from now on. Just pop in a scanning mod and rookie ships will be usable for scanning. But, overall, looking forward to the next expansion.
PS: Sadly, from what I have read here, it seems some people haven't realized that the probes also reposition themselves when you drag to adjust range. Most of those people, as I have seen from a youtube video linked to a blog, might be right clicking on the scanner window to change the probe range, in which case, the probes won't reposition themselves. |
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 21:38:00 -
[1275] - Quote
I think we should just stage a protest in Jita for all this. The probing, the t3 nerfing, the whole deal.
How about we all start trying to rep the broken statue in Jita as protest? I could think of no better use of the hundreds of pithum c-type medium shield transporters I have piled up. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:41:00 -
[1276] - Quote
So there has been no official word on T3 getting banned form 3/10 & 4/10, does this mean CCP plans to change this regardless of what people have to say about it? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:43:00 -
[1277] - Quote
Zeradn wrote:Sadly, from what I have read here, it seems some people haven't realized that the probes also reposition themselves when you drag to adjust range. Most of those people, as I have seen from a youtube video linked to a blog, might be right clicking on the scanner window to change the probe range, in which case, the probes won't reposition themselves.
Which just shows that its broken, they should be linked at a fundamental level in the code.
Maybe if they had actually mapped out the all of the current details for reference before they started to rewrite everything they would not have designed this horse that looks more like a hippo the closer you look at it. Poor planning and releasing what is a first draft, not even alpha version on Sisi does not confidence in the development team give, its all shiny, shiny visuals and sod all underneath.
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:51:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So there has been no official word on T3 getting banned form 3/10 & 4/10, does this mean CCP plans to change this regardless of what people have to say about it?
If you need a Tengu to do a DED 3 or 4 site, you may want to purchase an " i win" button because that-¦s what you are using, no effort or thought required, leave them to cruiser and battle cruiser pilots with crap skills, that-¦s who they were designed for and with the new probe mechanic any month old will be able to find and run them.
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:01:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So there has been no official word on T3 getting banned form 3/10 & 4/10, does this mean CCP plans to change this regardless of what people have to say about it? If you need a Tengu to do a DED 3 or 4 site, you may want to purchase an " i win" button because that-¦s what you are using, no effort or thought required, leave them to cruiser and battle cruiser pilots with crap skills, that-¦s who they were designed for and with the new probe mechanic any month old will be able to find and run them. No, I like T3s so I can do, complexes (3/10 - 6/10) Data Sites, Relic sites, and WH. Now you are looking at 5/10 & 6/10 meaning finding a combat site that you can do is even rarer than it is now. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:19:00 -
[1280] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:[.. but let's be realistic here for a second - wouldn't most people have one of those diamond shaped patterns saved anyway if we were provided ability to make custom patterns. I mean, yes it makes things easier for newbies but its far from rocket science. The problem is not the availibilty of preset patterns, problem is the fact that someone had the bright idea that we need 7 probes and 7 probes only, thus reducing options in probing immensly..
Realistically, i-¦ve never used so many probes to get a target, 7 or 8 is overkill and just shows lack of dimensional awareness and basic geometry. Pre-set patterns are cookie cutter and do not really have a place in a sandbox, it screams hand holding and guidance (which should be confined to the rookie tutorials),. i know CCP will not listen to players as they have committed them selves to this shiny, shiny broken poorly developed new way (two teams not talking and working together on a basic common linked interface at the coding level screams trouble), but they can get it right in the next two weeks even if they have to recode some basics from scratch.
Single probe launch is a fundamental requirement in exploration, as i have said before, make Extended Launchers firing base be 1 combat Probe or a set of 8 Core Probes,a.k.a the Super Probe and up the Ccores mass to 1.25 to bring consistency, its logical, PvP probing requires far more flexible approaches than find a PvE site.
|
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:22:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So there has been no official word on T3 getting banned form 3/10 & 4/10, does this mean CCP plans to change this regardless of what people have to say about it? If you need a Tengu to do a DED 3 or 4 site, you may want to purchase an " i win" button because that-¦s what you are using, no effort or thought required, leave them to cruiser and battle cruiser pilots with crap skills, that-¦s who they were designed for and with the new probe mechanic any month old will be able to find and run them. No, I like T3s so I can do, complexes (3/10 - 6/10) Data Sites, Relic sites, and WH. Now you are looking at 5/10 & 6/10 meaning finding a combat site that you can do is even rarer than it is now.
T2 variants work equally well, but you have to think sometimes on how to work the site, but you can fit every thing you need on them, but again that takes thought and game play. |
Tzu Wu
The 51st Corp The 51st Alliance of Internet Spaceship Pilots
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:40:00 -
[1282] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Sylvia Nardieu wrote:[.. but let's be realistic here for a second - wouldn't most people have one of those diamond shaped patterns saved anyway if we were provided ability to make custom patterns. I mean, yes it makes things easier for newbies but its far from rocket science. The problem is not the availibilty of preset patterns, problem is the fact that someone had the bright idea that we need 7 probes and 7 probes only, thus reducing options in probing immensly.. Realistically, i-¦ve never used so many probes to get a target, 7 or 8 is overkill and just shows lack of dimensional awareness and basic geometry. Pre-set patterns are cookie cutter and do not really have a place in a sandbox, it screams hand holding and guidance (which should be confined to the rookie tutorials),. i know CCP will not listen to players as they have committed them selves to this shiny, shiny broken poorly developed new way (two teams not talking and working together on a basic common linked interface at the coding level screams trouble), but they can get it right in the next two weeks even if they have to recode some basics from scratch. Single probe launch is a fundamental requirement in exploration, as i have said before, make Extended Launchers firing base be 1 combat Probe or a set of 8 Core Probes,a.k.a the Super Probe and up the Core Probes mass to 1.25 to bring consistency, its logical, PvP probing requires far more flexible approaches than find a PvE site.
So we are all supposed to be math geniuses like yourself? At the end of the day its a video game,not a job.I see so many people out here that are quick to say "You arent a pro if you dont use 4 probes".Well,if I want to use 7 thats my business.It's worked for me and honestly,why in the world do others care about how others play? |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:43:00 -
[1283] - Quote
god damn, really i didnt want to use 7 probes and you guys **** it up now even more so that we have to use 8 pls ccp stop it and make us use the amount of probes we want, i want 1 and 5 dont need anything else, if you dont have an idea about how to do that, how about if you click on your formation button link whatever you want, but give me the chance to activate the launcher and get only 1 probe at a time, some ppl complained about 8 probes and most of use dont need it, its useless, the only thing it shows you is, how different ppl are probing, let us keep doing that really bad that you start to tell us now how we have to do something |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1046
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 01:25:00 -
[1284] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So there has been no official word on T3 getting banned form 3/10 & 4/10, does this mean CCP plans to change this regardless of what people have to say about it? If you need a Tengu to do a DED 3 or 4 site, you may want to purchase an " i win" button because that-¦s what you are using, no effort or thought required, leave them to cruiser and battle cruiser pilots with crap skills, that-¦s who they were designed for and with the new probe mechanic any month old will be able to find and run them. No, I like T3s so I can do, complexes (3/10 - 6/10) Data Sites, Relic sites, and WH. Now you are looking at 5/10 & 6/10 meaning finding a combat site that you can do is even rarer than it is now. T2 variants work equally well, but you have to think sometimes on how to work the site, but you can fit every thing you need on them, but again that takes thought and game play. That is very true, and brings up another question: If T2 ships can do this just as well as a T3 then why are T3s being barred? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2904
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 06:19:00 -
[1285] - Quote
No, it brings the question- why T2 ships are allowed.
Everybody agrees that banning T3s from hisec DEDs a good thing, it just doesn't do enough to solve the farming issue, and other nerfs are needed.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 06:23:00 -
[1286] - Quote
i put a lot of sp in t3 only for hi sec and low exploration, and logistics for it, only for this specific task, because i like play this way, if changes do something that any of my sp will be unused, or be less effective for this task, you create different content, i make payment for different sp schemat for different content, and maybe i not like this again after this changes, this is like stealing, "we don't care you pay for this" "pay once more and wait another long time to skill different sp", now you pay for something and after changes you get a lot of things that you never pay for, because with compared with other thing it is boring, if someone is masochist and like to do ded 4/10 in destroyer becouse he like low isk risk, ok is sandbox this is his choice, but i'm not, and i like something else and i make payment for something else. i will request for remap all my sp in between all my accounts, for character names resculp, characters resculps, corporations and corporation history resculp, standings reamap, and reimbursement for all my inconvenients. and i probably do this that way or another becouse new content look terrible for me, and i not put my payment and time for this new something. and i go with this not to ccp because this sound useless, maybe i should try International Consumer Protection and Enforcement Network? |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 06:58:00 -
[1287] - Quote
Tzu Wu wrote:
So we are all supposed to be math geniuses like yourself? At the end of the day its a video game,not a job.I see so many people out here that are quick to say "You arent a pro if you dont use 4 probes".Well,if I want to use 7 thats my business.It's worked for me and honestly,why in the world do others care about how others play?
Simple spacial awareness and deduction is all i-¦m talking about, its not a job, its GAME, you know what a game is as you seem to be referring to Master Bates hobby of self abuse.
So why do you think its a good idea to FORCE your play style of 7 probes onto those who use fewer, do you care about how we play?.
So being so self absorbed like CCP, its the only reason they came up with this abortion of an upgrade/dumbing down/wowification of exploration |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:00:00 -
[1288] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: That is very true, and brings up another question: If T2 ships can do this just as well as a T3 then why are T3s being barred?
Are you implying that there is no difference between a T2 ship and a T3 ship?
|
Shpongleye
Hard Knocks Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:00:00 -
[1289] - Quote
@CCP
I live in C5-C5, I scan a lot. I logged on sisi and tried out the new scanning mechanics and I think the scanning itself is really good, esp the fact that you no longer need to move all the probes but the center one, also the scaling of probe position when you expand and contract the radius.
What I dont like is that you cannot launch 1 probe, you MUST have 8, this needs to get changed as im sure you aware of by now judging by so many previous posts in here.
Are you sure about the skill changes? Why not remove astrometrics completely i stead of reducing all skill bonuses by 50%.
Tldr; i like the changes. Remove 8 probes req in probe launcher. Skill changes might need to be looked over?
Thank you, and as always I love your game |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:05:00 -
[1290] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote:i put a lot of sp in t3 only for hi sec and low exploration, and logistics for it, only for this specific task, because i like play this way, if changes do something that any of my sp will be unused, or be less effective for this task, you create different content, i make payment for different sp schemat for different content, and maybe i not like this again after this changes, this is like stealing, you make exploration less efficient, if you like to do this, ok, but i not make payment for this, "we don't care you pay for something else" "pay once more and wait another long time to skill different sp", now you pay for something and after changes you get a lot of things that you never pay for, because with compared with other thing it is boring, if someone is masochist and like to do ded 4/10 in destroyer becouse he like low isk risk, ok is sandbox this is his choice, but i'm not, and i like something else and i make payment for something else. i will request for remap all my sp between all my accounts, for character names resculp, characters resculps, corporations and corporation history resculp, standings reamap, and reimbursement for all my inconvenients. and i probably do this that way or another becouse new content look terrible for me, and i not put my payment and time for this new something. and i go with this not to ccp because this sound useless, maybe i should try International Consumer Protection and Enforcement Network?
Silly person..
i-¦ll get the cheese board...
Its CCP-¦s game, its a sandbox, they make whatever content they want, you have no rights, they own what ever pixels and database entries you make. |
|
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:20:00 -
[1291] - Quote
ok, but, when i make payment for game, read choose sp to train, contend was different, now i get something else, i wish to get reimbursement, because, product i get is difrent with product i pay for, is so simple. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:28:00 -
[1292] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote:ok, but, when i make payment for game, read choose sp to train, contend was different, now i get something else, i wish to get reimbursement, because, product i get is difrent with product i pay for, is so simple.
No its not, product the same, product is CCP-¦s sandbox and they can change how it looks and works as they want, you can like it and pay or not like it and leave.
Stop feeling entitled, if you want a game that doesn-¦t change go to a shop and buy a box and play with yourself. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:32:00 -
[1293] - Quote
no it is not, i need to sped more time to get isk i need pey more money to get more game time. only name is the same |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:59:00 -
[1294] - Quote
and there are to types of changes, sandbox changes, made by players in game and i in moust cases i have impact on them, and changes by game creator, at game mechanics, that make my sp less value for me, if you make that i not need my sp, and not giving choice to redirect my assets, for wich one i pay, is just like someone take from me my money, without asking me abaut this, becouse maby i dont like it any more, by making from thing that i like, thing wich i not like any more, and if i wish to have thing that i like, i must pay more, is just stealing and forceing out money from me. |
Jonas Staal
Silver Octopus Infernal Octopus
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 08:46:00 -
[1295] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: That is very true, and brings up another question: If T2 ships can do this just as well as a T3 then why are T3s being barred?
Are you implying that there is no difference between a T2 ship and a T3 ship?
Probably not. But it is highly unlikely that new players fly HACs. Current T3 users will. Therefor nearly nothing will change.
As scanning will become easier, I reckon there will be alot more competition. So I guess the new players that focus on exploration now will be worse off after the update. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 08:50:00 -
[1296] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Jack Ogeko wrote:ok, but, when i make payment for game, read choose sp to train, contend was different, now i get something else, i wish to get reimbursement, because, product i get is difrent with product i pay for, is so simple. No its not, product the same, product is CCP-¦s sandbox and they can change how it looks and works as they want, you can like it and pay or not like it and leave. Stop feeling entitled, if you want a game that doesn-¦t change go to a shop and buy a box and play with yourself.
this is nice, ccp and all websites tell it is a player-driven, persistent-world mmorg, not game creators-driven game, with that i know ccp only give u accet to game. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 09:32:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:Jack Ogeko wrote:ok, but, when i make payment for game, read choose sp to train, contend was different, now i get something else, i wish to get reimbursement, because, product i get is difrent with product i pay for, is so simple. No its not, product the same, product is CCP-¦s sandbox and they can change how it looks and works as they want, you can like it and pay or not like it and leave. Stop feeling entitled, if you want a game that doesn-¦t change go to a shop and buy a box and play with yourself. this is nice, ccp and all websites tell it is a player-driven, persistent-world mmorg, not game creators-driven game, with that i know ccp only give u accet to game and make fixs.
Pointless arguing with you, players have been shafted with SP redundancies, prerequisites changes and more.
Also you buy a product that CCP supplies, if they modify the product, which they do twice a year, you adapt, its their world not yours.
Now stop feeling entitlement, if you want to rage, go on, but it will not change anything, it is player driven, you can still explore, you can still do everything you could before, its just how you do it that is modified, sand boxes have edges, its a box, it doesn-¦t mean they cannot be moved, raised, lowered. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 09:55:00 -
[1298] - Quote
is very wierd, why you defend this changes when you can get reimbursement? ye it is pointles, becouse you not have any arguments, and you not have meaning with this becouse you are not from ccp, they make changes, but not that significan for worse for some players in every expansion, so it is obvious, and i wish to get reimbursement becouse, if they wish make changes they do this, but if i not like it and it is unfair for me, and i not be informed before, when i pay for it, i wish get back my asets. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:17:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Sylvia Nardieu wrote:[.. but let's be realistic here for a second - wouldn't most people have one of those diamond shaped patterns saved anyway if we were provided ability to make custom patterns Realistically, i-¦ve never used so many probes to get a target, 7 or 8 is overkill and just shows lack of dimensional awareness and basic geometry.
7 or 8 probes are not an overkill as they allow much faster probing of sig-rich areas, however if probing with 4-5 probes makes you feel smarter then everyone else - go ahead, it is a sandbox after all. Also, even with all the shiny implants and faction modules, you MUST have as many probes out as you can handle (8 in my case) to nail down an eccm'd boosting tech 3's as fast as possible so I'd say your experience in probing is somewhat limited.
Quote:Pre-set patterns are cookie cutter and do not really have a place in a sandbox, it screams hand holding and guidance (which should be confined to the rookie tutorials),.
Single probe launch is a fundamental requirement in exploration, as i have said before, make Extended Launchers firing base be 1 combat Probe or a set of 8 Core Probes,a.k.a the Super Probe and up the Core Probes mass to 1.25 to bring consistency, its logical, PvP probing requires far more flexible approaches than find a PvE site.
There is nothing wrong with one or two pre-set patterns as long as there are other options too, preferably customisable ones. While presets are, as you say 'cookie cutter solutions', they will only serve to produce that specific cookie. For all other requirements people will still have to learn the fine details (those who choose probing/explo as a part of their career path). Problem is not introduction of pre-sets, problem is taking away of flexibility that existed before and to which you point out yourself. |
Space Wanderer
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:33:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:[quote=Brainless Bimbo][quote=Sylvia Nardieu] 7 or 8 probes are not an overkill as they allow much faster probing of sig-rich areas, however if probing with 4-5 probes makes you feel smarter then everyone else - go ahead, it is a sandbox after all. Also, even with all the shiny implants and faction modules, you MUST have as many probes out as you can handle (8 in my case) to nail down an eccm'd boosting tech 3's as fast as possible so I'd say your experience in probing is somewhat limited.
Let me add that if you go around scanning with a combat ship, and you don't want to load your ship with tons of scan strength equipment, you HAVE to know what equipment you have to put on the ship, and 8 probes helps immensely in reducing that amount of equipment. |
|
AtomYcX
Cold Moon Destruction. Transmission Lost
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 12:30:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Jack Ogeko wrote:is very wierd, why you defend this changes when you can get reimbursement? ye it is pointles, becouse you not have any arguments, and you not have meaning with this becouse you are not from ccp, they make changes, but not that significan for worse for some players in every expansion, so it is obvious, and i wish to get reimbursement becouse, if they wish make changes they do this, but if i not like it and it is unfair for me, and i not be informed before, when i pay for it, i wish get back my asets.
No reimburse, only potato. Life not fair, is no happy only sadness. |
Jack Ogeko
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:32:00 -
[1302] - Quote
i wait for ccp decision, and if it will negative i try Consumer Protection Organisations |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:36:00 -
[1303] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: That is very true, and brings up another question: If T2 ships can do this just as well as a T3 then why are T3s being barred?
Are you implying that there is no difference between a T2 ship and a T3 ship? Not at all, I am saying the problem will still persist. The loot drop is part of the problem, another part of the problem is that a 3/10 is easily done in a destroyer. A 4/10 can be done in a T2 fit, T1 cruiser.
A 3/10 is supposed to be for Cruisers and easier to do in advanced cruisers. A 4/10 is supposed to be for Battle Cruisers and easier to do in advanced battle cruisers.
If the Complexes were made challenging for the appropriate size ships, then maybe the loot drops would not be such an issue. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:38:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Roime wrote:No, it brings the question- why T2 ships are allowed.
Everybody agrees that banning T3s from hisec DEDs a good thing, it just doesn't do enough to solve the farming issue, and other nerfs are needed.
Lets not forget it bans T3 form half of the low sec DED sites also, or would you care to ignore that fact. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:09:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:No, it brings the question- why T2 ships are allowed.
Everybody agrees that banning T3s from hisec DEDs a good thing, it just doesn't do enough to solve the farming issue, and other nerfs are needed.
Lets not forget it bans T3 form half of the low sec DED sites also, or would you care to ignore that fact.
What? ignoring unrateds its 1/3 of lowsec DEDs |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:23:00 -
[1306] - Quote
There is now an issue on Sisi that everytime after scanning i have to click the sig again for the red dot/yellow beacon to show up again. |
Geralt Rittersporn
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:41:00 -
[1307] - Quote
bug report ID 158947
After a log-off in space, I only reconnected to 7 probes, not to all 8. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:03:00 -
[1308] - Quote
OK, you have updated the scanner a bit i see...
Nice Stuff:
Timers on probes Nice blue sweeper line across results window to show scan time, [but why no numerical read out so people can see effects of skills, and equipment]. You still have kept the RH click menus for the rows in the scanner windows. [So why not other legacy functions?]
Not Nice Stuff: Why are probes not all linked in scanner window, they launch as one, function as one when you resize with the blue sphere so why is that not reflected in the scanner window?, IT SHOULD BE CONSISTENT.
Still no single probe launch, why not?, is it impossible in the code as you have rewritten it?
Can we have an unlink probes button to change behaviour on screen? (yeah shift button held in by a piece of card works as well)
Why is not the spread formation launched at Maximum scan range?, it makes far more sense than present.
Why no numerical read out of scan time so people can see effects of skills, and equipment, blue line shiny, but no info given.
All Columns (both probe and results windows) still not sizeable, i have to lose half the screen to get all in. not every one has mega monitors you realise
Why does not the screen info regards sites not get posted at same time to scanner window; (seems that changing filter and back to all reveals them, so is still bugged).
Wormhole entry still displays the warning "forgot your probes" and the auto recall, old system is better, made player inter act and make choice, no hand holding and very EvE. Auto recall of probes needs to go, if your stupid enough not to be paying attention you deserve to lose them, after all what is the RE-CONNECT BUTTON FOR, that was a sop when introduced now no harshness left.
Why does the selected rows in the scan results window not remain persistent?
Why does a resize of scan range occur when you change formation, they should remain the same.
|
Space Wanderer
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:11:00 -
[1309] - Quote
At least now i can launch less than 8 probes, if there are less than 8 in the launcher.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1878
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:21:00 -
[1310] - Quote
Just tested exploration. I noticed the red dot indicating the approximate site location would not display until I had selected a signature from the list. On TQ that dot displays by default, you got to "ignore" the signature to have it be hidden. The result is now an extra click is added to each scan cycle. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
|
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:10:00 -
[1311] - Quote
lol ccp
on a good note: i finally can launch only 1 probe on a bad note: really i either use your stupid 8 probe formation or if i dont want that i have to load the launcher each time with only 1 probe to scan
really ccp fix it your formation thing, make more options or give us the option to save the formation we want to use, this whole scanning patch is like it is atm just useless and annoying |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5146
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 03:05:00 -
[1312] - Quote
CCP: The current design for the probe launcher (launch all probes in the launcher up to the maximum of 8) is awful. I know this, many other players know this, and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Players absolutely need the option to launch a single probe by clicking on the module. Launching in the current manner (all probes loaded up to 8 launched at once) should only be done through clicking on the preset formations in the scan window.
This is how it must be done. You must realize this is what needs to be done. Do not release it until this is fixed. I'm ******* serious.
Some other things that need to be done: - The analyze button should be used without probes to repopulate the anomaly and signature list from the sensor overlay. This means getting the list of anomalies and signatures, based on the player's active filter and ignore list, with the base signal strength for the signatures. Anything previously scanned to 100% should remain at 100%, however. - Some of the columns can't be sorted. This needs to be fixed. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Byrrssa Crendraven
Anti - Social Trueheart Legion
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 05:06:00 -
[1313] - Quote
You've worked hard to make things simple on the probing...and I like it. I appreciate all the work you've done so far....but,...
Instead of making us continually click on the site that we're scanning for, could we just right click it and set focus on it? We can ignore the other sites... how about setting the focus on the one site that we want...so that we don't have to continually click on it inbetween the adjustments we have to make to scan it down?
Thank you! |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
709
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 08:55:00 -
[1314] - Quote
@ CCP, is there a delay in time between a new signature spawning and the "discovery scanner" detecting the new signature?
If not i would suggest that you add one. Add a 5 minuet delay between a new signature (i.e. a wormhole) spawning and the discovery scanner being able to detect it... but for pilots that are using probes and actively pressing the scan button, reward their efforts by having no delay between probe scanning and new signature detection.
WHAT SAY YOU? Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 09:27:00 -
[1315] - Quote
with the new scanner it's really easy to probe, too easy. The signature are detected too accurately, you can go directly go with the 4 au scanning without mission the signature.
Maybe a bug, but after focusing and probbing a signature there's no way to get all the other signature back on the scanner
And the auto-recall of probes is just stupid and illogical, plz remove it |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
127
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:52:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP, is there a delay in time between a new signature spawning and the "discovery scanner" detecting the new signature?
If not i would suggest that you add one. Add a 5 minuet delay between a new signature (i.e. a wormhole) spawning and the discovery scanner being able to detect it... but for pilots that are using probes and actively pressing the scan button, reward their efforts by having no delay between probe scanning and new signature detection.
WHAT SAY YOU? +1 |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1471
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:03:00 -
[1317] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP, is there a delay in time between a new signature spawning and the "discovery scanner" detecting the new signature?
If not i would suggest that you add one. Add a 5 minuet delay between a new signature (i.e. a wormhole) spawning and the discovery scanner being able to detect it... but for pilots that are using probes and actively pressing the scan button, reward their efforts by having no delay between probe scanning and new signature detection.
WHAT SAY YOU? +1
Agreeing with this as well. I would even go as far as to say it should require a session change(docking, jumping systems, etc) before updating new sigs only. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:46:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP, is there a delay in time between a new signature spawning and the "discovery scanner" detecting the new signature?
If not i would suggest that you add one. Add a 5 minuet delay between a new signature (i.e. a wormhole) spawning and the discovery scanner being able to detect it... but for pilots that are using probes and actively pressing the scan button, reward their efforts by having no delay between probe scanning and new signature detection.
WHAT SAY YOU? +1
They removed DSP's so what makes you think they'd agree to this |
Kraiklyn Laduko
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:31:00 -
[1319] - Quote
I have just witnessed what happens with the scanner when a wormhole reaches the end of its life and a new one gets spawned. Can't decide if it's a feature or an issue though. The wormhole collapsed, its signature continued to be displayed in space and on the scanner. A few minutes later a second signature popped up on the scanner whilst still displaying the old one as well. Then when I dropped probes and scanned for the new sig the old one finally vanished from the scanner.
I have also noticed that the sigs displayed on the scanner do not auto update when you jump systems. Although they will update if you click on the 'Show All' category drop down.
When you jump through a wormhole the in-space bookmark from the overlay scanner for the wormhole should really be displayed at your location next to the wormhole with a distance of zero AU instead of being at a random spot in space with a random distance. This current system really makes no sense.
|
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Talocan United
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:49:00 -
[1320] - Quote
Seeseepee left this thread a long time ago. |
|
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
182
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:42:00 -
[1321] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Some other things that need to be done: - The analyze button should be used without probes to repopulate the anomaly and signature list from the sensor overlay. This means getting the list of anomalies and signatures, based on the player's active filter and ignore list, with the base signal signature strength for the signatures. Anything previously scanned to 100% should remain at 100%, however. - Some of the columns can't be sorted. This needs to be fixed. These are good ideas. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5151
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:25:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Also:
The new probe launch is also in part a serious nerf to combat scanning, because the default position for the initial scan on launch is directly at the sun. There's no option to have this initial position at the location where the probes were launched, as before.
I'm starting to suspect this is actually the reason you refuse to let us launch a single probe (at least not without jumping through hoops and loading only one probe and then activating the launcher).
So not only should we be able to launch a single probe at a time should we choose (and yet retain the new formations), this is what should be done: - This single probe launch (which again would be done by simply activating the launcher, regardless of how many probes are in it) would launch a probe whose location for scanning is right at the location where it was launched (in other words, if I launch a single probe and click analyze immediately, the probe should begin scanning immediately since it doesn't have to go anywhere). - Launching in the spread formation should have the same behavior as currently: launch up to 8 probes, and move their scan location center them around the sun. - Launching in the pinpoint formation should have the same behavior as currently except that the formation should initially be centered around the launch point, not around the sun. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
CCP Paradox
862
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:21:00 -
[1323] - Quote
We have reached "the end" of this Feedback thread. While I still read this to hunt out bugs, we will be publishing a Dev Blog shortly with all changes made from Feedback there, and what little things you can expect to be done in time for Odyssey.
Some bugs:
- Sorting isn't fully working correctly. We broke this recently and it will be fixed shortly.
- The Scan results are persisting when you jump systems, this isn't meant to be as it causes issues in various ways. Will be fixed shortly.
- Sometimes you are unable to warp to a few 100% signatures "No scan signatures detected" is displayed.
This isn't a definitive list, but those three are ones which you will probably keep seeing for the next few days until the fixes go onto Singularity.
A couple of things: The onboard scanner is now dead. The results from the sensor overlay are designed to be populated into the probe scanner on the first time it scans. (Currently changing system persists the old list, which is a bug and not intended. It breaks a few things)
The probe launcher will now launch whatever is in the launcher. You can put 4 probes in, and launch only four (still launches all at once).
And a few other things that I will leave for our Dev blog. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5152
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:35:00 -
[1324] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:We have reached "the end" of this Feedback thread. While I still read this to hunt out bugs, we will be publishing a Dev Blog shortly with all changes made from Feedback there, and what little things you can expect to be done in time for Odyssey. Some bugs:
- Sorting isn't fully working correctly. We broke this recently and it will be fixed shortly.
- The Scan results are persisting when you jump systems, this isn't meant to be as it causes issues in various ways. Will be fixed shortly.
- Sometimes you are unable to warp to a few 100% signatures "No scan signatures detected" is displayed.
This isn't a definitive list, but those three are ones which you will probably keep seeing for the next few days until the fixes go onto Singularity. A couple of things: The onboard scanner is now dead. The results from the sensor overlay are designed to be populated into the probe scanner on the first time it scans. (Currently changing system persists the old list, which is a bug and not intended. It breaks a few things) The probe launcher will now launch whatever is in the launcher. You can put 4 probes in, and launch only four (still launches all at once). And a few other things that I will leave for our Dev blog. Way to completely fail to address many of the points people have made. You can sure as hell expect to hear from us in the feedback thread in the devblog. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
CCP Paradox
862
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:52:00 -
[1325] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:We have reached "the end" of this Feedback thread. While I still read this to hunt out bugs, we will be publishing a Dev Blog shortly with all changes made from Feedback there, and what little things you can expect to be done in time for Odyssey. Some bugs:
- Sorting isn't fully working correctly. We broke this recently and it will be fixed shortly.
- The Scan results are persisting when you jump systems, this isn't meant to be as it causes issues in various ways. Will be fixed shortly.
- Sometimes you are unable to warp to a few 100% signatures "No scan signatures detected" is displayed.
This isn't a definitive list, but those three are ones which you will probably keep seeing for the next few days until the fixes go onto Singularity. A couple of things: The onboard scanner is now dead. The results from the sensor overlay are designed to be populated into the probe scanner on the first time it scans. (Currently changing system persists the old list, which is a bug and not intended. It breaks a few things) The probe launcher will now launch whatever is in the launcher. You can put 4 probes in, and launch only four (still launches all at once). And a few other things that I will leave for our Dev blog. Way to completely fail to address many of the points people have made. You can sure as hell expect to hear from us in the feedback thread in the devblog.
We will address them, but right now this thread has served its initial purpose to us. And preparing for another forum thread it's just not feasible to monitor both, or respond to all the points people have made since we last replied.
CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
143
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:41:00 -
[1326] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: You can sure as hell expect to hear from us in the feedback thread in the devblog.
Maybe they will title the devblog, "Let Them Eat Cake." |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
286
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:05:00 -
[1327] - Quote
when can we see that on sisi? Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
BashNako
Invisible Presence
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 23:40:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey
No non-combat ships in orca? For me, this is a deal breaker, or simply put - unsubbing. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 23:56:00 -
[1329] - Quote
BashNako wrote:No non-combat ships in orca? For me, this is a deal breaker, or simply put - unsubbing.
The mess that is Odyssey wouldn't be complete if it wouldn't also make the life of nomadic explorers a nightmare. |
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 02:15:00 -
[1330] - Quote
BashNako wrote:Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey No non-combat ships in orca? For me, this is a deal breaker, or simply put - unsubbing.
can i please have your stuff if you do end up unsubbing? cheers |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 05:10:00 -
[1331] - Quote
BashNako wrote:Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey No non-combat ships in orca? For me, this is a deal breaker, or simply put - unsubbing.
Let's see some evidence before we go unsubbing our accounts based on what someone has "heard". |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1054
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 06:26:00 -
[1332] - Quote
BashNako wrote:Baycity Kitty wrote:Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey No non-combat ships in orca? For me, this is a deal breaker, or simply put - unsubbing. And had you bothered to look 2 posts down you would have found this....
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey Confirmed this in not true. http://i.imgur.com/rDZgLka.jpg
Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:51:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Baycity Kitty wrote:Shilalasar wrote:But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Except I hear that the Orca won't allow any non-industrial ships to be put in its hanger now. So you can't move anything buy mining ships in an orca in odyssey Confirmed this in not true. http://i.imgur.com/rDZgLka.jpg [/quote]
I'm still interested in the source of this rumor, myself. |
Mythus Supremus
Red Moon Initiative
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:40:00 -
[1334] - Quote
I can't get closer because some kind of spiritual presence
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1305/2013.05.24.14.33.19.png |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:44:00 -
[1335] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:We have reached "the end" of this Feedback thread. While I still read this to hunt out bugs, we will be publishing a Dev Blog shortly with all changes made from Feedback there, and what little things you can expect to be done in time for Odyssey. Some bugs:
- Sorting isn't fully working correctly. We broke this recently and it will be fixed shortly.
- The Scan results are persisting when you jump systems, this isn't meant to be as it causes issues in various ways. Will be fixed shortly.
- Sometimes you are unable to warp to a few 100% signatures "No scan signatures detected" is displayed.
This isn't a definitive list, but those three are ones which you will probably keep seeing for the next few days until the fixes go onto Singularity. A couple of things: The onboard scanner is now dead. The results from the sensor overlay are designed to be populated into the probe scanner on the first time it scans. (Currently changing system persists the old list, which is a bug and not intended. It breaks a few things) The probe launcher will now launch whatever is in the launcher. You can put 4 probes in, and launch only four (still launches all at once). And a few other things that I will leave for our Dev blog. Way to completely fail to address many of the points people have made. You can sure as hell expect to hear from us in the feedback thread in the devblog. We will address them, but right now this thread has served its initial purpose to us. And preparing for another forum thread it's just not feasible to monitor both, or respond to all the points people have made since we last replied.
thanks for the constructive discussion about Deep Space Probes and for addressing all the many other concerns posted here by your customers... /sarcasm
|
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 15:31:00 -
[1336] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:We have reached "the end" of this Feedback thread. While I still read this to hunt out bugs, we will be publishing a Dev Blog shortly with all changes made from Feedback there, and what little things you can expect to be done in time for Odyssey. Looks like I'll need to copy my messages to that thread because they were completely ignored.
I hope more competent game designers will notice points raised by community there and won't let this new systems get to TQ. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:03:00 -
[1337] - Quote
I think an apt description of making exploration more "accessible" would have involved a discussion on the real ultimate goal of these changes.
"We're not interested in T3 farming of 4/10 sites, so we'll get rid of the DSP and limit ship types in 4/10s, without any regard to combat or wormhole probers. "
I am losing hope that the changes will actually make it easier to arrange probes how I want. They will definitely force me into using an inferior probe layout because it is such a pain to move from the default layout. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:08:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:I am losing hope that the changes will actually make it easier to arrange probes how I want. They will definitely force me into using an inferior probe layout because it is such a pain to move from the default layout. Why is that? I experimented with how quickly I can modify the spread formation into my old flat 8-probe layout and I find that it's almost as quick as before. With a little practice you should be able to remake your favorite formation quickly.
It's a little annoying that the center probes are now higher/lower than the other probes, but it's not too hard to correct that. . |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:29:00 -
[1339] - Quote
Guess I'll mess around with it this weekend to see if I can get it working how I'd like. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:39:00 -
[1340] - Quote
So to launch one probe i still have to load just one and then reload the launcher with new set of probes that i might want to use next depending on the results of the first one? reloading madness anyone?
I think you could have made much better results by just adding few elements like formations and ability to launch them instantly using a separate button into the already working probing system. Now almost everything is broken and/or painful to use. I can only hope that you have the time to address all the issues before odyssey . |
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 11:26:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:I am losing hope that the changes will actually make it easier to arrange probes how I want. They will definitely force me into using an inferior probe layout because it is such a pain to move from the default layout. Why is that? I experimented with how quickly I can modify the spread formation into my old flat 8-probe layout and I find that it's almost as quick as before. With a little practice you should be able to remake your favorite formation quickly. It's a little annoying that the center probes are now higher/lower than the other probes, but it's not too hard to correct that.
Ok I tried it out and it is as painful as I remember.
Try arranging 4 probes at 2au within 4 at 8 au. Not simple or intuitive.
Problems:
If you deactivate 4 probes they still are linked to the other 4 active so when you move only 4 via the single box the deactivated probes move as well.
No dynamic adjustment of probe sizes in the scanner window so I don't know what size I'm resizing them to while dragging until I release.
No way to drop probes all at the same site on top of each other. Please allow the option to drop 8 probes at one spot so I can arrange them as I like.
|
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:21:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Got a question about new signature strenghts. Unfortunately I cannot test scanning on SiSi myself, because my mirror has 6M SP less than my live character capable of exploration.
However, yesterday on SiSi I noticed one thing. Seems like the automatic scan is now replacing the initial DSP/Core probe max range scan. That is nice, even though it will increase competition even more (high sec).
The signature strength displayed on the list is completely different from Tranquility tho. I saw 5, 7 and 10 percent... I am used to 0,73, 1,15, 3,05 etc.
Is it random now? Or does 4/10 has e.g. fixed 5%, Hideout fixed 10% etc.? If it stays fixed and the initial scan is so trivial now, this will increase cherry-picking and competition to even more insane levels
Do any skills actually affect displayed signature strength realted to the automatic initial scan?
Thanks for your answers! |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:13:00 -
[1343] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:So to launch one probe i still have to load just one and then reload the launcher with new set of probes that i might want to use next depending on the results of the first one? reloading madness anyone? I think you could have made much better results by just adding few elements like formations and ability to launch them instantly using a separate button into the already working probing system. Now almost everything is broken and/or painful to use. I can only hope that you have the time to address all the issues before odyssey .
I have suggested that expanded probe launchers launch one probe at a time from the F1-8 function, leaving the PvE standard launcher to launch the super 8 probe formation as that is more in keeping with T1 frigates who generally will benefit from the new system anyway. One addition to the expanded launcher could be that if you launch from the scanner window buy using the formation buttons you get a super 8 probe launched, instead of a single regardless of probe type.
Its a win win for CCP, they keep the super probe and give PvP-¦rs the flexibility they need when prey hunting as well as keeping happy the unconventional prober out there.
I know they will not do it as it makes too much sense, they probably ignore every thing i write because they could have reminded me that transparency is set in General setting, but as i need high contrast i have always had it opaque to the max so i can read, but hey a simple word would have not been a miss, sort of sums up some of CCP. CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
142
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:16:00 -
[1344] - Quote
So under your idea, what happens to using the F-keys for activating guns and cloaks and such if I have an expanded launcher fitted? |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1764
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 21:32:00 -
[1345] - Quote
here a small request: if you double click a signature in the scanner window and you have the system map open, could you make it so that the camera centers on that signature?
(the same way it would center itself on the signature if you would double click on it in map mode) eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
412
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 10:13:00 -
[1346] - Quote
The scanner windows is still entire crap. Any hints about removing un-needed spaces betweens columns ? And make them resizable ? And remove dropping menus so that some actions requires at least the same amount of clics than before ? G££ <= Me |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 11:10:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:So under your idea, what happens to using the F-keys for activating guns and cloaks and such if I have an expanded launcher fitted?
I-¦m just saying keep the F# etc keys having the same function as now FOR THE LAUNCHERS CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
Shuin Pa
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:23:00 -
[1348] - Quote
Scanning is coming along. It's much cleaner and easier to use now.
I made these notes a couple days ago, please disregard any that may have already been addressed.
1) Bring the DSP back. Maybe you could make it only scan ships, structures, loot and WH. No Anoms/profession sites.
2) When we click the module on the hud to release probes it releases them 1 at a time and leaves them where they are... no predefined pattern and dropped at the ship. Keep the easymode 8 probe launch to the predefined patterns.
3) Add 2 buttons for custom patterns (easymode) R-Click to save current pattern and range.
4) Make the range on the scanning window reflect the current selected range state of the probe not the previous range. Currently when I set the range on the probes it is not shown in the probe scan window until after the scan has started.
5) Probes are always dropped at the sun.. Why? Leave them at the ship please.
6) Selected probes are forgotten after scan. One has to reselect the probes again to set range. This is confusing when just trying to change range on 4 probes and not all 8.
Thank you for listening to your community,
Pa
(((Save the DSP))) |
Saerni
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 20:33:00 -
[1349] - Quote
A few small errors popped up...
I single launched a probe, and for some reason it forgot one of the two signatures I scanned down and that signature did not reappear until I reloaded the system by docking and undocking again.
From a design perspective it is super awkward to load one probe in order to get the single probe results. Having all the signatures that auto appear in the list at 10% makes sense if you want to disable DSP style functionality without having a probe out...but without an easy way to launch a single probe (even a single launch button on the new scanner probe window) you might as well just include the DSP functionality in the default scan.
Now I assume the 10% is because a ship lacks the sensor strength to create the calculation for %age so a default is being used. If this ends up being the final design decision you should probably set the value more like to 1%, since 10 seems awkwardly high. Otherwise give each ship a base sensor strength modified by skills.
On a general note, the overall interface is looking much better, the graphics for the overlay are cleaner (and updating to reflect your probing), it is looking much better already :) |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 21:06:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Some questions regarding how new/spawning signatures interact with the new ship scanner. An initial scan very apparently runs when your ship enters a new system, however clicking the scan button without probes out now causes an error instead of rerunning the ship's scanner.
- Is there a method to refresh the ship scanner's scan of signatures in system or does it update automatically when a new signature spawns? This is important functionality for WH dwellers who previously used a DSP to watch for new incoming WH signatures while doing ops.
- If it updates automatically, how often does it check for updates to the sig list?
- Does the "show overlay" need to be toggled on to enable constant automatic signature hunting or will new sigs appear in the list with the effect toggled off? I did notice that the animation on the ship scanner button that runs when entering the system does not run again when re-opening the window or turning on the overlay. If having the overlay turned on enables constant signature scanning the animation should definitely be playing.
|
|
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 06:51:00 -
[1351] - Quote
Also it'd be really cool if double clicking on a scan result centered the solar system view on the sig's dot. |
Jose Montalvo
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:18:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Good day to you team super friends, so far the new onboard scanning seems interesting and helpful but what's the purpose of changing the classification of grav sites from what we have currently to anoms which you can warp at 0 without the use of probes. I'm sure that the industry/mining community of this game is not happy about this new feature. We have trained our probing skills for the purpose of scanned down sites like this and be sure to have at least a time window to get safe when a pirate or red shows up in system and he doesn't have the exact location of the site. The math is simple, without many miners working those belts, essential minerals for t2 ships and modules will decrease exponentially, also the high end minerals. Without minerals there's no pew pew cause you don't pvp with capsules. Please I beg you Paradox to think this carefully, at least make the sites appear on the onboard scanner but in order to warp to them make the player use their probes and skills just like wh's and such. The theory about defense fleets guarding mining ops is just that a theory not a true fact. Thx for your time. |
Oxigun
Galt Innovations Eve Engineering
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:41:00 -
[1353] - Quote
I spent some time scanning again on SiSi to see how the proposed system has changed.
+ The interface is cleaner and getting there. I still can't sort the probes by the probe size but I've given up on that (see below) + The 8th probe is back + I can move the entire probe formation without using a modifier key
- I still can't launch a single probe at a time. Please, spare me the nonsense about single loading the launcher, that's not even a viable workaround. This is like telling me to only load one bullet into my gun because I don't want it to fire more than one bullet on auto mode. Ridiculous...
-Your preset scanning patterns are not optimal for people who do not want to scan everything down. You have decided to take away the skill from scanning to make it easier for n00bs. Congratulations, you have made the sandbox smaller and less versatile. Trying to make the formation into something different is painful and even more time consuming than before.
- On the current TQ version, when I run a scan, all scanned sigs show up on the map so I can simply move my probe formation and rescan. On your new version, the sigs don't show up on the map. I have to move my cursor from the map to the list, click on the result for it to show up and go back to the map to move/resize the probes accordingly. Thank you for adding more work to my scanning.
-On a final, yet minute note: Since your probe formations aren't concentric, when I resize from 4AU to 1AU, the center of the probe formation shifts and i have to move the formation to be re-centered on the result before re-scanning again. Yet more work for me.
Dear CCP Paradox & Team,
I'm sorry to say that while you may be brilliant coders and game developers, you lack basic geometry and physics skills along with some common sense on user playability. You have taken a part of the game that had some science and math associated it and dumbed it down so that junior players can still scan. As for us, more advanced players, you have taken away our toolset and left us with a hammer. I am disappointed, especially since you have received so much feedback from the community and have chosen to ignore it.
Oxi |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 18:44:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Adjustable columns in results window would be greatly appreciated.
Every time you press the analyze butan, it un-selects a selected signature. Very annoying. |
Tryaha
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 11:20:00 -
[1355] - Quote
I would like an extra probe pattern, 4 probes in a "cross" formation.
I know it's possible to place them manually, but this is the only thing that is missing as thing currently are on the test server. It would also help for the 8-probe "flower" pattern some people use (just drop 2 "crosses") |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:32:00 -
[1356] - Quote
My latest experience from test server.
Signatures appear instatly upon system entrance, is this intended?
After first scanning with probes signatures found by system scanner disappear and I am unable to re-discover them without docking or system re-entrance. The only way is to launch single probe (or more, if the system is bigger), set max range and scan the system using probes. However there are some limitations:
- launching a single, or two or three probes is such a pain now - so usually you launch a whole formation, deactivate some probes and then place the remaining ones as needed, which is now less comfortable than before, but ok, its a tradeoff for manipulating with formations being much more comfortable now.
After this scan the signature strength shown is the same as it is now on Tranquility and does not correspond to numbers shown by automatic system scanner - 20, 10, 5, 2.5% e.g. for the same signature. |
Saerni
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:50:00 -
[1357] - Quote
To keep it consistent, I'd change it from 20%, 10%, etc. to 2%, 1%, 0.5%, 0.25% for consistency with the probing system. I like the general use dsp style information the scanner gives without the subtle detail of a actual probe (use a combat in place of DSP and it works the same).
Also an easier way to launch single probes than current iteration is needed....right now easiest thing to do is launch 8 and pull back 7, which is pretty awkward. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 14:46:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:here a small request: if you double click a signature in the scanner window and you have the system map open, could you make it so that the camera centers on that signature?
(the same way it would center itself on the signature if you would double click on it in map mode)
This ^^
also, what happened to the green anomalie indicators on the system map? please put them back... |
|
CCP Paradox
862
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 14:49:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Kitanga wrote:Bienator II wrote:here a small request: if you double click a signature in the scanner window and you have the system map open, could you make it so that the camera centers on that signature?
(the same way it would center itself on the signature if you would double click on it in map mode) This ^^ also, what happened to the green anomalie indicators on the system map? please put them back...
We have implemented that now Bienator II (we wanted to do this from the beginning, but with the feedback that came in we had to prioritize a few other things to get right first).
The green anomalies are still there, there is a toggle now in the Scanner window (Show Anomalies) next to the current filter. This will show the anomalies or hide them from the results list, no matter which filter you have set. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Tryaha
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:06:00 -
[1360] - Quote
And how about a 4-probe "cross" formation? Shouldn't be to hard and would please alot of people. |
|
PROTOTYPE NEXSUS-7
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:11:00 -
[1361] - Quote
how about not taking out dsp's and giving us saveable probe configs and putting signal strength back on the results how about not changing things so drastically how about letting us turn off the sensor overlay if we don't want to see it |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5219
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:16:00 -
[1362] - Quote
Saerni wrote:To keep it consistent, I'd change it from 20%, 10%, etc. to 2%, 1%, 0.5%, 0.25% for consistency with the probing system. I like the general use dsp style information the scanner gives without the subtle detail of a actual probe (use a combat in place of DSP and it works the same). "LOL 0% ACROSS THE BOARD IS THAT CONSISTENT ENOUGH FOR YOU?" - CCP -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
CCP Paradox
862
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:20:00 -
[1363] - Quote
Tryaha wrote:And how about a 4-probe "cross" formation? Shouldn't be to hard and would please alot of people.
We have a dev blog coming out soon, but I will just write a quick reply here.
The two formation buttons in the scanner window are aimed more at the novice explorer. We know they are not the most 100% efficient formations you can make (because more than two efficient formations exist, for varying reasons at scanning things)
The interactivity with the formation can be tweaked with shift and alt. Now, in Odyssey there are three key ways to launch probes. By clicking Spread formation or Pinpoint formation buttons (which launch in the formation also, centered on the sun) Or by clicking the module/probe launcher itself.
The probe launcher launches the probes in the last known position of the system, and in the last known formation you left them in. It will not suddenly switch to the Spread/Pinpoint, unless they were last in that position.
So for example. If you want a specific formation, what you can do is this:
Say I just want four probes in a standard square formation, nothing special. I will launch my probes. Either de-activate or recall four. (These two steps are far quicker, than simply hitting the module 4 times. And far less inconvenient) Move my probes into formation Scan something.
Now, I have an option. I can recall the four probes that are out. Jump system, and launch the four probes again. When I launch through the launcher, they will appear in the same formation they were just in. They will not suddenly snap to the spread or pinpoint.
Oh, and just as I wrote this up. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/team-super-friends-do-odyssey/
CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:20:00 -
[1364] - Quote
PROTOTYPE NEXSUS-7 wrote:how about not taking out dsp's and giving us saveable probe configs and putting signal strength back on the results how about not changing things so drastically how about letting us turn off the sensor overlay if we don't want to see it
You.. really.. don't read very much of what they tell us, do you? |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
419
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:40:00 -
[1365] - Quote
Note how the screen of the new scanning window is especially made NOT to show how bad it is to have unused empty column space + unresizable columns :p G££ <= Me |
Everlast Darkheart
Cold Moon Destruction. Transmission Lost
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 16:21:00 -
[1366] - Quote
"From todays devblog: " wrote:There are two pre-set formations coming in Odyssey for players to use GÇô Spread (probes aligned to cover a large area) and Pinpoint (probes aligned to focus on one point). These are not intended to be the absolute best possible formations, but rather a solid starting point for budding explorers
So if its not optimal... it would require us to move all probes individually (while holding some keybinding down). I fear that having to rearrange the 8 probe formation from its pentagon formation +1 top/bottom will take far longer than having em deployed all together at 0 and then arrange them.
(Unless the pentagon formation is optimal). |
|
CCP Paradox
865
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 16:35:00 -
[1367] - Quote
Everlast Darkheart wrote:"From todays devblog: " wrote:There are two pre-set formations coming in Odyssey for players to use GÇô Spread (probes aligned to cover a large area) and Pinpoint (probes aligned to focus on one point). These are not intended to be the absolute best possible formations, but rather a solid starting point for budding explorers So if its not optimal... it would require us to move all probes individually (while holding some keybinding down). I fear that having to rearrange the 8 probe formation from its pentagon formation +1 top/bottom will take far longer than having em deployed all together at 0 and then arrange them. (Unless the pentagon formation is optimal).
With Shift and Alt it takes very little time to arrange them in a more efficient pattern. More so for ships here, for Signatures it is quite efficient for the majority of users.
And they are not optimal as we still want players to learn how to create their own formations, but we are giving them a start in recognizing what kind of formations are in use.
Also, if you read above at my last post - you will notice that the last formation can be saved, so your adjustments will not disappear if you want to keep them. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:09:00 -
[1368] - Quote
Confirming the last-used formation can be saved. It seems to require a session change in order to save them, unless I'm doing something wrong. That is, I can't deploy and arrange, then scan and recall, reload and redeploy all in the same system. I have to actually jump to a new system before the last-used formation saves.
All in all, it's an interesting and clever use for the otherwise-redundant launching of probes via the module itself. |
|
CCP Paradox
869
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:18:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Confirming the last-used formation can be saved. It seems to require a session change in order to save them, unless I'm doing something wrong. That is, I can't deploy and arrange, then scan and recall, reload and redeploy all in the same system. I have to actually jump to a new system before the last-used formation saves.
All in all, it's an interesting and clever use for the otherwise-redundant launching of probes via the module itself.
I'll look into what is on Singularity, it shouldn't require you to jump system. Thanks for having a look at it, hopefully you can see a little glimpse of the future with it. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
iskflakes
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:24:00 -
[1370] - Quote
If I'm understanding this right, is it now 100% impossible to lose probes? - |
|
|
CCP Paradox
869
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:25:00 -
[1371] - Quote
Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick) CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1769
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:26:00 -
[1372] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Kitanga wrote:Bienator II wrote:here a small request: if you double click a signature in the scanner window and you have the system map open, could you make it so that the camera centers on that signature?
(the same way it would center itself on the signature if you would double click on it in map mode) This ^^ also, what happened to the green anomalie indicators on the system map? please put them back... We have implemented that now Bienator II (we wanted to do this from the beginning, but with the feedback that came in we had to prioritize a few other things to get right first).
you guys are awesome! eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1516
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 18:09:00 -
[1373] - Quote
After this patch, not getting any sigs or anoms from the initial scan, or after turning the overlay on. Was that broken again? I can see 4 anoms and 2 sigs in the spaceview, but the scanner list is empty.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 18:52:00 -
[1374] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick)
I'll take another look at it, then. I was quite impressed, regardless. Whoever came up with the idea and whoever made sure it got into Odyssey for release both deserve a very large, very cold mug of beer and the best steak (or shark) dinner the average CCP dev can afford. Or maybe slightly better than that. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 19:18:00 -
[1375] - Quote
I noticed all signatures now show as 0% after entering the system but still can be probed out. Does that mean the dsp will have a comeback?
Ignoring anoms is broken. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 19:30:00 -
[1376] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:I noticed all signatures now show as 0% after entering the system but still can be probed out. Does that mean the dsp will have a comeback?
Ignoring anoms is broken.
Showing the signatures, but doing it at 0%, simultaneously provides the basic DSP functionality we were promised of the Discovery Scanner while eliminating the DSP-usage technique that seems to be regarded as OP and somewhere between cheating and broken.
I wouldn't expect a return of DSPs. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2983
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 21:11:00 -
[1377] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick)
Is this not coming in Odyssey, or did you forget to write it in the devblog?
Just wondering because this is by far the best feature of the scanning changes, and alone awesome enough to rescue the whole thing.
Perfect usability improvement!
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
NUXI7
B0rthole Test Alliance Please Ignore
138
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 21:25:00 -
[1378] - Quote
This may be a bit late for feedback, but can you please put the option to display anomalies back in the menu with the rest of the result types where it belongs?
http://i.imgur.com/mYb9OiL.png
The way it works on TQ is much saner:
http://i.imgur.com/9U8IGe6.png
Edit: I'll note that the rest of it looks pretty sweet. Except for this intermediate popup where it used to just immediately open the last used tab:
http://i.imgur.com/HlXn2VA.png |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 21:36:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:I noticed all signatures now show as 0% after entering the system but still can be probed out. Does that mean the dsp will have a comeback?
Ignoring anoms is broken.
The 0% for every signature is perfectly fine and understandable. The system scanner is weaker than probes, so showing 20% upon system entry automatically and then getting 2,73% for the same signatgure after first detecting it with probe was... a little bit of and weird :)
I welcome this change. You know there are some, but you do not have the DSP cherry-picking functionality, perfectly fine. GJ CCP, everything seems more complex and thought out now closer and closer to realease (and I mean profession sites as well). |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1904
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 21:48:00 -
[1380] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:If I'm understanding this right, is it now 100% impossible to lose probes? You can explode. That will lose the probes.
One wonders how many probes are lost via forgetfulness vs ship explosion. If most is via ship explosion, then this change will have little impact on the market. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1904
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 21:56:00 -
[1381] - Quote
Roime wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick) Is this not coming in Odyssey, or did you forget to write it in the devblog? Just wondering because this is by far the best feature of the scanning changes, and alone awesome enough to rescue the whole thing. Perfect usability improvement! Its in the blog, just with a little confusion added:
" The system remembers your last probe setup before they were automatically recalled so they can be quickly deployed again in the same pattern (by activating the launcher). No more forsaken probes in space!"
What is the confusion is it remembers the last probe setup irrelevant of how they were recalled. At least I think that's right. CCP, care to confirm? Having the auto recall feature description mixed in with the probe setup save feature is a little confusing..... Also lets say I manually do a 4 probe setup, recall it, place 8 probes in the launcher and click the launcher. Do I get 4 probes in space and 4 in the launcher? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2984
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:12:00 -
[1382] - Quote
I see now, thanks!
That would have warranted it's own spacefrench line, I consider it the Queen feature of this mess.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Kururu Hime
Templar's security forces
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:18:00 -
[1383] - Quote
What about the modules/ships reducing the CPU need for probe launchers, since the DS are removed, this bonus wont do any good ? Any plan on replacing t his bonus by a scan strengh bonus or speed or even range for example ? |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:20:00 -
[1384] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:iskflakes wrote:If I'm understanding this right, is it now 100% impossible to lose probes? You can explode. That will lose the probes. One wonders how many probes are lost via forgetfulness vs ship explosion. If most is via ship explosion, then this change will have little impact on the market.
I do not know whether you can lose them this way.
1) Launch, afk 2 hours, probe times out and disappears 2) Launch probes, Disconnect or logoff while there in space and not come back (also a possibility). 3) Cyno/Jump bridge?
You all might want to try those situations out, the one being most likely is disconnecting/logoff. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
2984
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:23:00 -
[1385] - Quote
Kururu Hime wrote:What about the modules/ships reducing the CPU need for probe launchers, since the DS are removed, this bonus wont do any good ? Any plan on replacing t his bonus by a scan strengh bonus or speed or even range for example ?
Expanded Probe Launchers take the same amount of CPU, no matter which probes you use in them
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1905
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:30:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:iskflakes wrote:If I'm understanding this right, is it now 100% impossible to lose probes? You can explode. That will lose the probes. One wonders how many probes are lost via forgetfulness vs ship explosion. If most is via ship explosion, then this change will have little impact on the market. I do not know whether you can lose them this way. 1) Launch, afk 2 hours, probe times out and disappears 2) Launch probes, Disconnect or logoff while there in space and not come back (also a possibility). 3) Cyno/Jump bridge? You all might want to try those situations out, the one being most likely is disconnecting/logoff. #1 CCP answered. You get them back.
And then there is server entering downtime, or server crash. Once when I was just a few months into eve I had 4 probes out and hit recall. At the same time I had 4 probes being loaded into the launcher. Right in the middle the server crashed. All 8 sisters probes gone. And me being relatively new barely had 20 million ISK to rub together. I petitioned nicely and they were refunded. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:38:00 -
[1387] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Tryaha wrote:And how about a 4-probe "cross" formation? Shouldn't be to hard and would please alot of people. We have a dev blog coming out soon, but I will just write a quick reply here. The two formation buttons in the scanner window are aimed more at the novice explorer. We know they are not the most 100% efficient formations you can make (because more than two efficient formations exist, for varying reasons at scanning things) The interactivity with the formation can be tweaked with shift and alt. Now, in Odyssey there are three key ways to launch probes. By clicking Spread formation or Pinpoint formation buttons (which launch in the formation also, centered on the sun) Or by clicking the module/probe launcher itself. The probe launcher launches the probes in the last known position of the system, and in the last known formation you left them in. It will not suddenly switch to the Spread/Pinpoint, unless they were last in that position. So for example. If you want a specific formation, what you can do is this: Say I just want four probes in a standard square formation, nothing special. I will launch my probes. Either de-activate or recall four. (These two steps are far quicker, than simply hitting the module 4 times. And far less inconvenient) Move my probes into formation Scan something. Now, I have an option. I can recall the four probes that are out. Jump system, and launch the four probes again. When I launch through the launcher, they will appear in the same formation they were just in. They will not suddenly snap to the spread or pinpoint. Oh, and just as I wrote this up. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/team-super-friends-do-odyssey/
I just tested this on Sisi and it's not working as intended (or at least as you described).
I launched 8 probes...set them in a square formation all on the same plane (2D) and recalled them. Loaded the launcher again and launched probes. they all appeared in one point in space. They did not form in the square formation I used last.
|
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 22:51:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Some more observations after spending the afternoon scanning on SiSi.
1. The activate checkbox is gone!. I used a lot this feature (specially when arranging 2 sets of probes with different sizes, formation) The checkbox was faster than the right click menu.
2. Why show "Range 0.5 AU" for every single probe? Make that text more compact (add a column header maybe?) or simply shorten it to "0.5 AU". This will give you room to bring back the disable checkbox.
3. Remove the useless expiration timer if probes are not going to expire anymore. This will give you more room to bring back the activate/disable checkbox. ... On a more serious note, just let the probes expire, don't recall them. If i wanted a more accessible space game I would still be playing Asteroids.
4. Dropping probes seem to draw the probes (in the solar system map) somewhere in system. Not at your ships location (which is where they actually are dropped)...not at the sun... Ideally it should match where they really are...next to your ship.
Scan strength seems a bit weak... I am using a Loki with the Emergent Locus subsystem (no scanning rigs). All minnie subsytem skills at level 5. Expanded probe launcher 2, combat probes and the 3 new scanning modules (all T1) and I can't scan down a few sites. The best I get is around 57%. I was under the impression all these changes were to make scanning easier.
I tried a 2.5 site in a WH and I could only get to 100% with all probes right on top of the signature at 0.5 au range. I am pretty sure I do not had this much trouble in TQ (only difference is I use a sisters launcher with sisters combat probes).
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 03:47:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:
I just tested this on Sisi and it's not working as intended (or at least as you described).
I launched 8 probes...set them in a square formation all on the same plane (2D) and recalled them. Loaded the launcher again and launched probes. they all appeared in one point in space. They did not form in the square formation I used last.
One of the key things he mentioned was that you have to actually complete a scan cycle with them in order to save the formation.
As for myself, I've been noticing that it doesn't seem to save properly at all unless you change systems. In fact, the scanner window doesn't depopulate after the probes have all returned when you scan with a custom formation.
It worked for Paradox though, so I'm curious what's happening on my end. Either way, I'll have to mess with it some more. |
Oxigun
Galt Innovations Eve Engineering
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 06:23:00 -
[1390] - Quote
This is what I'm seeing after the latest update, 06:15 29/5:
All 8 probes launch at 32AU, centered around ship. After resizing, moving and scanning: -Recall shows all probes as "Returning" -They continue to "Return for a long time" -Clicking on scan says "Communication with Probes failed" -Relaunching 8 probes yields concentric 32AU pattern, not the one I made
Honestly, I like this better than any of the other previous iterations although i would like to know if the probes have returned to me.
I am glad this works so much better than before, thanks guys! If you could also leave all the scanned results as "active" so that I don't have to click on them to see them on the map, i'm happy
Oxi |
|
Zircon Dasher
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 06:50:00 -
[1391] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: Also lets say I manually do a 4 probe setup, recall it, place 8 probes in the launcher and click the launcher. Do I get 4 probes in space and 4 in the launcher?
No. You get 4 probes in your custom setup and 4 probes in a glob all in space at the same time.
-Confirming that custom formations break the return notification (it gets stuck on "returning")...have to keep inventory open to see when they are back. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:04:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: Also lets say I manually do a 4 probe setup, recall it, place 8 probes in the launcher and click the launcher. Do I get 4 probes in space and 4 in the launcher? No. You get 4 probes in your custom setup and 4 probes in a glob all in space at the same time. -Confirming that custom formations break the return notification (it gets stuck on "returning")...have to keep inventory open to see when they are back.
I sent eight probes out, arranged them just so, did a scan cycle with them and recalled. They got stuck on "returning" but that's expected by now. I re-launched and the formation didn't save, instead launching all eight in one spot rather than the glorious formation I had created. I re-created it, scanned again, re-recalled and jumped one system over. As seen previously, the formation did indeed save this time and the probes were launched into it correctly. I scanned down a Relic site (the hacking containers didn't even have any good loot, nevermind what I actually got...) and recalled the probes.
Wouldn't you know it.. they launched in a single group right on top of each other. I recalled without scanning, jumped back to the first system and re-launched. This time, they were back in the correct formation and at the last AU size I had used.
I'm partially writing this here to try and figure out how to word it for the bug report, but if anyone else's experience matches this then it's probably helpful to mention so that others can say "That's exactly what I get too". |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:47:00 -
[1393] - Quote
After the scanner runs and picks something up, clicking on one of the results (signature, anomaly, etc) does not pan the camera around.
Everywhere else you click (d-scan, overview, in space) pans the camera and points it to the selected object. Selecting a signature or anomaly should do the same thing.
|
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:49:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: Also lets say I manually do a 4 probe setup, recall it, place 8 probes in the launcher and click the launcher. Do I get 4 probes in space and 4 in the launcher? No. You get 4 probes in your custom setup and 4 probes in a glob all in space at the same time. -Confirming that custom formations break the return notification (it gets stuck on "returning")...have to keep inventory open to see when they are back.
True. Seems the window does not refresh once the probes enter your cargo hold. Once they are in the hold, if you close and reopen the scanner window the probes are not longer listed. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
288
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:11:00 -
[1395] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick)
Done some testing and it seems to be problem of it forgetting how i had them setted up after re-logging
jumping systems is working fine - it rememebrs my setup, but reloging is losing it and launching all of my probes putted all probes almost on top of each other and I rememebr that during preparation of my setup I had that formation (all probes in one place with one not perfectly centered) for a moment, so it looks like its trying to recall something, but its not saved properly.
At the same time - it si hard to make our own setups with no way of launching all probes in a spot. preset formations makes it harder. Pls allow us to just launch all probes in place with no presets. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Kai Pirinha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:24:00 -
[1396] - Quote
I really appreciate that you added the columns back to the scanner (distance, ID, Scan Group, Group, Type, Signal strength) and that it is once again to sort signatures.
But could you please also add the two options to
- move the columns around and switch the order (for example I like to see the strength on the left next to the ID and I don't really care about the distance in most cases)
- to manually scale the size of the column, so that I can for example read the type completely
|
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:33:00 -
[1397] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick)
It does save for me as well but I am also getting the same thing as Alvatore DiMarco, requires a session change to launched the saved formation. I LOVE YOU CCP <3 |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:37:00 -
[1398] - Quote
CCP just got to my bug report now.
Also, to launch all your probes in one spot just use the launcher button. It does still work, you know. |
|
CCP Paradox
885
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:38:00 -
[1399] - Quote
blink alt wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Just tried this out Alvatore DiMarco and it works for me. What I did: Dropped 8 probes, arrange them in a square formation. Scanned Recalled Probes (tried both clicked the button, and also right clicking probes and chosing recall) Launched the 8 probes again after they were all recalled. They launched back into the square formation.
If you are experiencing the formation not saving, please file a bug report in game with your exact steps you're taking so I can take a look :) (Hit F12, Report Bug, Fill in the details, its pretty quick) It does save for me as well but I am also getting the same thing as Alvatore DiMarco, requires a session change to launched the saved formation. I LOVE YOU CCP <3
Luckily, Alvatore DiMarco submitted an awesome bug report I can begin to work with. So I will investigate this and get it solved for Odyssey :) Thanks! CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5266
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:44:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:CCP just got to my bug report now.
Also, to launch all your probes in one spot just use the launcher button. It does still work, you know. No, it doesn't. The probe formation still goes to the sun. The probes may physically be around your ship but as soon as you hit scan they all warp into their formation centered on the sun. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
|
CCP Paradox
885
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:48:00 -
[1401] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:CCP just got to my bug report now.
Also, to launch all your probes in one spot just use the launcher button. It does still work, you know. No, it doesn't. The probe formation still goes to the sun. The probes may physically be around your ship but as soon as you hit scan they all warp into their formation centered on the sun.
It remembers your last formation when launched through the launcher, but it remembers their positions in the system. The very first time you launch, they will all drop on your ship. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5266
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:55:00 -
[1402] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:CCP just got to my bug report now.
Also, to launch all your probes in one spot just use the launcher button. It does still work, you know. No, it doesn't. The probe formation still goes to the sun. The probes may physically be around your ship but as soon as you hit scan they all warp into their formation centered on the sun. It remembers your last formation when launched through the launcher, but it remembers their positions in the system. The very first time you launch, they will all drop on your ship. So activating the launcher directly should cause the initial formation to be around my ship, and not place the formation centered around the sun?
I'm not talking about the physical location of the probes, I mean the location of the probe formation as shown in the solar system map. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
CCP Paradox
886
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:32:00 -
[1403] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:CCP just got to my bug report now.
Also, to launch all your probes in one spot just use the launcher button. It does still work, you know. No, it doesn't. The probe formation still goes to the sun. The probes may physically be around your ship but as soon as you hit scan they all warp into their formation centered on the sun. It remembers your last formation when launched through the launcher, but it remembers their positions in the system. The very first time you launch, they will all drop on your ship. So activating the launcher directly should cause the initial formation to be around my ship, and not place the formation centered around the sun? I'm not talking about the physical location of the probes, I mean the location of the probe formation as shown in the solar system map.
Yes it will, its a side effect and will only happen once as the formation and position is saved from then on.
To add a point here, having the formation centered on your ship with the changes we have made will make scanning other ships in your 150km vicinity just too easy.
For example, currently with the (old) system, you would have to click the launcher several times to launch all probes. If you were launching 8 probes, this would take 8 seconds. You would then have quickly form and resize the probes, maybe 2 seconds or less to the experienced prober. After which you would analyze, taking between 4-6 seconds. So far we are at about 14 seconds for the quickest possible time (in theory)
With the new system, if the probes were to launch with the formation centered on your ship, it would take two clicks. Hit pinpoint to launch all 8, maybe reduce scan range and then hit analyze. (Takes about 1-2 seconds). Then you wait for the results at about 4+ seconds. So minimum results to get a hit on a ship in your vicinity is reduced from about 14 seconds, to about 4-6 seconds.
We chose not to go this route with the formations. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3011
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:42:00 -
[1404] - Quote
You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
|
CCP Paradox
887
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:51:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Roime wrote:You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey?
We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:22:00 -
[1406] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Roime wrote:You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey? We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however. Thank you for this change CCP! It's a great start and shows that you guys are willing to make changes even this late in the development.
|
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:31:00 -
[1407] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Yes it will, its a side effect and will only happen once as the formation and position is saved from then on.
To add a point here, having the formation centered on your ship with the changes we have made will make scanning other ships in your 150km vicinity just too easy.
For example, currently with the (old) system, you would have to click the launcher several times to launch all probes. If you were launching 8 probes, this would take 8 seconds. You would then have quickly form and resize the probes, maybe 2 seconds or less to the experienced prober. After which you would analyze, taking between 4-6 seconds. So far we are at about 14 seconds for the quickest possible time (in theory)
With the new system, if the probes were to launch with the formation centered on your ship, it would take two clicks. Hit pinpoint to launch all 8, maybe reduce scan range and then hit analyze. (Takes about 1-2 seconds). Then you wait for the results at about 4+ seconds. So minimum results to get a hit on a ship in your vicinity is reduced from about 14 seconds, to about 4-6 seconds.
We chose not to go this route with the formations. Wouldn't this problem, then, lend more to a solution where you just have to launch probes individually, albeit with the launcher on "auto-repeat"? It seems, then, by doing it the auto-repeat route (vs. having all of them launch at once), you give the cloaked ship some more risk (by having to be decloaked for longer) and give others a chance to catch that prober on dscan, at least? It seems like the shaving the time down by that much is making probing a *bit* OP out the gate, which would be ok if you weren't making some of the other changes, like Ore sites not having to be probed down. At least if you had probe-able Ore sites--even with the mildly-OP scanning--the hapless miner or explorer would have a chance to see the probes on dscan, align and warp off.
|
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:40:00 -
[1408] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Roime wrote:Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey? We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however.
Awesome, I love the CCP that acts on feedback. (And when people say you don't, its mostly that they are asking for huge changes that you can't implement this late in the development cycle.)
I am actually very impressed by you iterating on SiSi feedback, this time around.
Also, this particular change makes a lot of sense. Most people still get the convienience, the power user gets the option to leave em behind. |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:30:00 -
[1409] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Roime wrote:You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey? We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however.
are you saying that if you do not deactivate them then the magical instant recall still happens?
if so can you explain scientifically how the probes appear in your cargo instantly when you jump? given that this is a sci-fi game do you set standards on your developers to keep any new functionality in a 'scientifically feasible' domain? if so i think your QA sprint let one slide here. |
MisterAl tt1
Pretenders Inc W-Space
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:02:00 -
[1410] - Quote
OK, finaly got to test, as I thought some thinga would become better by this time (well, some did). erm... Sorry, but having to wait for your probes to come back when attempting to jump through the hole is a fail. As a scanner I sometimes have to RUN with no time to wait for probes to return. If forced to wait - well, "killed by my own probes", lol. |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:20:00 -
[1411] - Quote
MisterAl tt1 wrote:OK, finaly got to test, as I thought some thinga would become better by this time (well, some did). erm... Sorry, but having to wait for your probes to come back when attempting to jump through the hole is a fail. As a scanner I sometimes have to RUN with no time to wait for probes to return. If forced to wait - well, "killed by my own probes", lol.
Add: plz someone, if that time is set to some pre-arranged 3 sec waiting, or there is no waiting at all and the first time was just SiSi lag? If you have to RUN, then you can just leave the probes behind. Waiting for the probes to return is realistic. The "fail" was the magic and instantaneous return of the probes from some distant point in space to your ship.
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Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:22:00 -
[1412] - Quote
i see you guys still didnt understand that scanning is used for alot more things than your exploration thing, we do want to launch probes at the place our ship is, why do you guys tell us we arent allowed to do like we do, how about not making scanning that easy for ppl without skills and let us do our stuff instead
you guys ****** up a working system with alot of useless, worthless changes no one needed
whatever, i hope its just a bug, but if i ignore results the stay in your list and still shown on your overview, there is a reason we ignore signatures, we dont want to see them anymore, cause we either done with scanning that one or we arent interested in it and want to make the list shorter, especially with your new changes where ever single line in the results needs way more space now than before
really ccp its time to talk to your players and stop doing stuff which is annoying and useless |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5272
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:09:00 -
[1413] - Quote
Actually right now on sisi the current implementation seems to be that if you activate the launcher (not the formations) it launches 8 probes directly at your ship's location without any formations whatsoever.
That's totally fair, imo.
In other news, if you do this however it seems that probes don't actually return to the ship if you press return. They do however magically end up in cargo if you jump or dock. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:28:00 -
[1414] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Actually right now on sisi the current implementation seems to be that if you activate the launcher (not the formations) it launches 8 probes directly at your ship's location without any formations whatsoever.
That's totally fair, imo.
In other news, if you do this and immediately press return it seems the probes won't actually return to the ship. They'll just say "warping" and then "returning" and they'll get stuck there. They do however magically end up in cargo if you jump or dock.
it only shows your probes near your ship, but as soon as you hit scan they are at the sun, read ccp post about how it would be too easy |
Silvonus
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 22:05:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Tried scanning again, and I'm impressed with how it looks and works now (from a week ago). Thank you for implementing and fixing a lot of the little things (sortable columns, copy-paste, timer, etc.). I also especially like that when you go into the f10 map, it shows you the "red bubbles" for the approximate position of signatures. My only wish at this point would be for the game to remember the "best" scan for all signatures, even if they are not in range of the current scan, which I assume would be in the Future Maybes: Quote:Scan history GÇô the colored bars in the scan result list give an indication of whether a specific result got better or worse from your last scan. We want to take this further and allow players to essentially GÇÿgo backGÇÖ to a previous result. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3021
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 22:13:00 -
[1416] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Roime wrote:You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey? We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however.
Nice! Good move, this keeps many tactics in game.
However, I still think that a HUGE part of EVE's flavour is the ability to make stupid and costly mistakes, and that the current pop-up warning about forgotten probes is better than auto-recall.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Everlast Darkheart
Cold Moon Destruction. Transmission Lost
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 23:41:00 -
[1417] - Quote
Probably already been touched on but... If I ignore a anom/sig in the scanning list it would be neat if it wasnt displayed on the sensor overlay.
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Maratega
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 23:47:00 -
[1418] - Quote
-When you bookmarking a site, the bookmark name need to beginning default with the Site ID prefix. -Site ID need to be persistent, after daily downtime ( dont generate new IDs to the same sites )
Jist little things, but would be very cool!
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1133
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 23:55:00 -
[1419] - Quote
Roime wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Roime wrote:You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey? We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however. Nice! Good move, this keeps many tactics in game. However, I still think that a HUGE part of EVE's flavour is the ability to make stupid and costly mistakes, and that the current pop-up warning about forgotten probes is better than auto-recall. this. to avoid repeating myself: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3105359
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5275
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 03:15:00 -
[1420] - Quote
Anita1 wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Actually right now on sisi the current implementation seems to be that if you activate the launcher (not the formations) it launches 8 probes directly at your ship's location without any formations whatsoever.
That's totally fair, imo.
In other news, if you do this and immediately press return it seems the probes won't actually return to the ship. They'll just say "warping" and then "returning" and they'll get stuck there. They do however magically end up in cargo if you jump or dock. it only shows your probes near your ship, but as soon as you hit scan they are at the sun, read ccp post about how it would be too easy I know the difference, and you're wrong. Read what I said again. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
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Kai Pirinha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 05:41:00 -
[1421] - Quote
I still wonder: what's the point of only being able to launch 8 probes at once? If I want to probe with merely one probe (for sig strength etc.) it will still be possible: Launch 8 probes, deactivate 1, recover (active) probes, et voil+á, you have your single probe. So since it will technically still be possible to merely use one, where is the point? Why is it so easy and fast now? Don't you guys feel that it is becoming too easy? Eve has always been a bit exciting because most things aren't so easy. That WoT-point-and-click method will make it very boring very soon in my opinion. Nowadays dropping the probes at a planet/moon/sun might still get you killed in W-space because it takes about 10-16 seconds to drop probes. So you should get a safe first. After the patch it will be virtually impossible to catch a cloaky prober dropping his probes. WHY? Are the carebears really crying that hard and loud?
Also what will happen with the sisters expanded/core probe launcher? One of its boni was that it had a faster "rate of fire" (1,5 seconds instead of 2 seconds compared to the expanded/core probe launcher ii). This bonus will now be useless and it mattered in the past (at least in my humble opinion). Will there be another bonus to compensate (e.g. less deviation)? Or will the 10% scan strength possibly be buffed to 12,5% or maybe even 15%?
Kai Pirinha wrote:I really appreciate that you added the columns back to the scanner (distance, ID, Scan Group, Group, Type, Signal strength) and that it is once again to sort signatures. But could you please also add the two options to - move the columns around and switch the order (for example I like to see the strength on the left next to the ID and I don't really care about the distance in most cases)
- to manually scale the size of the column, so that I can for example read the type completely
(The quote is just as a reminder so it isn't overlooked :P) |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 06:24:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Do you think it will be possible to scan down a ship (and of what signature radius) outside of D-Scan range with all those new modules? I am affraid it will. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5278
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 06:51:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Do you think it will be possible to scan down a ship (and of what signature radius) outside of D-Scan range with all those new modules? I am affraid it will. You're asking if it will be possible to probe someone down without ever getting a probe to within 14.4 AU? I really doubt it. What concerns me is the amount of time required to probe a ship down once you get within that range. With the new modules it might be possible, depending upon scan times, efficiency, luck, and how often they press dscan, to get a warpin without your probes ever showing up on their dscan. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3022
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:19:00 -
[1424] - Quote
This is a heavy buff to combat probing in general, especially in wormholes. Exposure time for launching probes was cut under dscan (you can launch your whole set simultaneous when breaking gate cloak, you're only exposed for one flash), probe strengths went thru the roof, signatures are pinpointed for you on your screen so there's no mucking around with dscan.
Good combat probers become lethal, getting 100% lock on someone while under jump cloak will be easy, making sites as unsafe as anoms.
Not sure if this was intentional, but it doesn't make PVE more accessible to new players outside hisec.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Yukiko Sora
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:34:00 -
[1425] - Quote
@Roime: Did you look at the values after the latest patch? They added stacking penalties for the astrometrics skills. So an all five ship needs at least one rangefinding array (5% scan strength) in order to get the old scan values.
I have a scan proteus which currently has a scan strength of 63,36 with sisters combats and an expanded probelauncher ii (because i dont have a sisters on sisi to compare it with, so i took a tech ii) and all V. On Sisi that same proteus gets 61,9 scan strength. So I am forced to use a mid slot! One tech 2 scan rangefinding array (which requires rangefinding 5 - not a skill that everybody has, even in W-Space) boosts the probe strength to 66,3 - so with one less mid slot to use I have 4,64% more scan strength. How is that a heavy buff for combat probing? (Remember: Combat probing - I would prefer to use the ship/proteus I use to scan with also as a tackler, oh wait, I have to use midslots for something different than warp disruptors and scramblers. Splendid!) |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3024
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:42:00 -
[1426] - Quote
Ok that's new to me and a really confusing change.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jalequin
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:43:00 -
[1427] - Quote
The probing site "Hidden Ruins" shows up as a Relic site on the scanner. Upon warping to it I notice it is actually a DED.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/78696860/MiniSnaps/Static/capture_002_30052013_043008.png April 11th Mass Test *Video*: http://j.mp/Z1BEIU
May 16th Mass Test *Video*: http://j.mp/10Db6ry |
Yukiko Sora
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 09:50:00 -
[1428] - Quote
Relic sites used to be mag sites, right? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hidden_Ruins Looks like they simply replaced the "magnetrometric" with "relic sites" for all old mag sites. Did they change the site itself too? Or is there still stuff to analyze? |
Dragon Mnementh
Legion Interpolis The Kadeshi
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:35:00 -
[1429] - Quote
Dear CCP
as for now i managed today the first time to test that new probing an hacking to the end. Amd i am not a verry best friend of it. You ruined my actual gameplay to zero!!!!!!!!!!! i was on live servers scanning and probing, and my income is to find empty hidden belts magno and radar sites amd get them done.
So now every one see a hidden belt by entering a system ... so i never get a lonly hidden belt anymore and income is 0 i tested a low sec data site , scanned them out and tried to hack them. sure i got somthing but loot ? what the heck did the designer think? floating container that disapear in secons with loot. so my income is 0 again.
so my first try is verry frustrating
and when there will be no changes i will manage to cancel my account.
this is not what i whant tp play
i whants to get a nice evening with my friends play like i was played before these changes and get a chance to get some loot and income, now i will have a chatsystem with an avatar and no income anymore |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1521
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 12:54:00 -
[1430] - Quote
I had a bug report in about logging into the game without the scanner list populating, and having to relog to fix it. The report was closed as they couldn't reproduce it. I'm still having the bug randomly when changing systems, undocking, or switching ships in space. Sometimes clicking the show anomalies button on and off fixes it, sometimes changing the filter to cosmic signatures and back to show all fixes it, sometimes nothing does except to relog or change systems.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
|
|
CCP Paradox
892
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 13:32:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:I had a bug report in about logging into the game without the scanner list populating, and having to relog to fix it. The report was closed as they couldn't reproduce it. I'm still having the bug randomly when changing systems, undocking, or switching ships in space. Sometimes clicking the show anomalies button on and off fixes it, sometimes changing the filter to cosmic signatures and back to show all fixes it, sometimes nothing does except to relog or change systems.
There is one known issue, for changing ships while in space. Because the scanner only runs when you enter the system from a jump or undock - then changing ship does not cause the scanner to run, which does not give you back the initial scan results. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1521
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 14:44:00 -
[1432] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:I had a bug report in about logging into the game without the scanner list populating, and having to relog to fix it. The report was closed as they couldn't reproduce it. I'm still having the bug randomly when changing systems, undocking, or switching ships in space. Sometimes clicking the show anomalies button on and off fixes it, sometimes changing the filter to cosmic signatures and back to show all fixes it, sometimes nothing does except to relog or change systems.
There is one known issue, for changing ships while in space. Because the scanner only runs when you enter the system from a jump or undock - then changing ship does not cause the scanner to run, which does not give you back the initial scan results.
Can we just get the analyze button back to force a scan without probes, since even with probes, it doesn't always force the list to populate?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Mass Overload
288
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 15:05:00 -
[1433] - Quote
Probes are still out after pressing the recall button. You need to press reconnect to make them go into your cargo.
Edit: Actually, the hole process work, but you still need to press the reconnect to update the probe scanner window. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
653
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 15:05:00 -
[1434] - Quote
For the most part I like the changes to the scanning system, However for an experienced explorer it really feels like it has been dumbed down.
I have very good scaning skills on my main exploration toon, all scanning related skills to 4 with key ones to 5. I trained these skills to this level as the sites I was most interested in were gravametric sites, which where among the hardest to find. Now they can be found without even using probes.
I understand the efforts to make exploration more accessible to new players, but what about the veteran explorers? This is a massive reduction is skill requirements and the advantages training these skills to high levels and investing in faction equipment are now pretty much gone. I tested on SiSi with two setups, One in a bonused ship with faction launchers and probes, and again in an unbonused ship with meta 0 launcher and probes, I noticed no difference. On TQ there is a very noticeable difference.
Will we see in the near future sites added to challenge the veteran explorers rather than everything accessible with minimal skills. The majority of EVE players are veterans with only a small influx of new players. EVE is a complex game and this will never change. Dumbing down the game to this extent to bring in more new players may result in more veteran players leaving than new player arriving. I have no objection to adjusting content to be accessible to new players, I believe it is a great idea. But not at the cost of dumbing down content for experienced players. There are players in this game still active that have been here since beta, They do not what to play a game designed for noobs. Even myself having played since early 2009 find this annoying.
I fully support making the low level exploration sites easy to find and more accessible for new players, but at least give us harder sites for continued progression as your skills increase. As it stands now I have almost 2 months worth of training into scanning skills that I no longer need to find even the most difficult sites. If you are going to make these features more accessible to new players you have to do it in a way that does not screw over the veteran players. The EVE player base will only satay strong if you put as much effort into player retention as you do into attracting new players. Bringing in 100,000 new accounts will be of no benefit if 120,000 veteran accounts are cancelled.
How many of the 500,000 currently active accounts in EVE are mutiboxing accounts? I have for accounts, most of my friends in game have multiple accounts, some as many as 10. If mutiboxing is made to be a PITA, which it is with the new launcher, and the advantages of running multiple accounts are lost you will loose far more value in alt accounts than you will ever gain in new accounts.
The coming changes in Odyssey will make null sec mining no longer Viable for me. I will not join one of the massive blocks of null sec just to get access to space that is safe enough to mine in, I will just stop mining. And now exploring will be pointless as sites are so easy to find there will not be enough to go around and my income from them will drop significantly. I have gotten bored with mining and manufacturing in high sec, yet I can not move to null without joining a coalition that will dictate to me how to play, and what to do when I am logged in.
The big attraction of EVE for me is the sand box. I make my own gameplay, and play the way I want. These changes have made my chosen gameplay no longer viable, instead you promote ganking, and make ganking even easier than it is now. Ganking is the most common activity in every PVP MMO I have ever played, It does not need help, it will continue strong even if you try to curb it. If you encourage ganking, the gankers will eventually drive all the non-gankers from the game. What will happen to EVE when there is nobody left in the game but gankers? The same that happens to every other MMO, the gankers will move on to a new game and the game and there will be nobody left. It happened in Diablo, It happened in SWG, It happened in AOC, please do not let it happen in EVE. |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 15:41:00 -
[1435] - Quote
Hello CCP,
still there's no adjustable columns on the results window.
I have a hunch people with not so much excess screen real estate will want that badly. Just think of all the forum whining you could avoid with this simple change. Thank you in advance. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1783
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 16:38:00 -
[1436] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:I had a bug report in about logging into the game without the scanner list populating, and having to relog to fix it. The report was closed as they couldn't reproduce it. I'm still having the bug randomly when changing systems, undocking, or switching ships in space. Sometimes clicking the show anomalies button on and off fixes it, sometimes changing the filter to cosmic signatures and back to show all fixes it, sometimes nothing does except to relog or change systems.
There is one known issue, for changing ships while in space. Because the scanner only runs when you enter the system from a jump or undock - then changing ship does not cause the scanner to run, which does not give you back the initial scan results.
what you say is that the scanner doesn't refresh without a jump or dock? This will make some people in FW very angry. Guess what you do if a FW complex finishes... yes you scan for the next one which may have spawned in the meantime. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 21:02:00 -
[1437] - Quote
ignoring results still doesnt work!!!! |
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Mass Overload
289
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 01:23:00 -
[1438] - Quote
Anita1 wrote:ignoring results still doesnt work!!!! If you are trying to ignore anoms, them ot doesnt work couse now you have a nice check box that lets you ignore them. |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 01:36:00 -
[1439] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Anita1 wrote:ignoring results still doesnt work!!!! If you are trying to ignore anoms, them ot doesnt work couse now you have a nice check box that lets you ignore them.
thx but one thing still not changed is the fact that you select your probes in the list, you scan and they arent selected, you need to do that after every scanning same with repositoning, if you change the size of your probes in the list with right clicking they dont position themself
|
Jalequin
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 09:09:00 -
[1440] - Quote
Yukiko Sora wrote:...What makes you think this is a DED/Combat site? Because of the message "DED deep space scouts briefly explored this strange site and left behind a rather cryptic note."?
Upon warping to it twice I landed on an acceleration gate, then jumping through the gate lands on rats. April 11th Mass Test *Video*: http://j.mp/Z1BEIU
May 16th Mass Test *Video*: http://j.mp/10Db6ry |
|
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 09:55:00 -
[1441] - Quote
Yukiko Sora wrote:@Roime: Did you look at the values after the latest patch? They added stacking penalties for the astrometrics skills.
Ah, ok then, thats pretty new to me, did not know that. On the other hand... its weird skills having stacking penalties :(
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
190
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 11:58:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Noztra Ernaga wrote:Yukiko Sora wrote:@Roime: Did you look at the values after the latest patch? They added stacking penalties for the astrometrics skills. Ah, ok then, thats pretty new to me, did not know that. On the other hand... its weird skills having stacking penalties :(
This is not true. Probes and launchers have stacking penalties, the skills themselves do not. In fact, if you have Astrometrics V, you should in fact be seeing a boost in your skills compared to how it is on TQ right now. |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 14:32:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Is it only me, or does the instantly populated results list feel a little immersion breaking?
I mean, the in-space anom brackets only show after the sensor has finished one "sweep", but the results window already knows everything. Feels very wrong to me and is a huge buff to ceptor pilots. |
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:55:00 -
[1444] - Quote
True, I hope its a bug. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1097
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 16:57:00 -
[1445] - Quote
Nam Dnilb wrote:Is it only me, or does the instantly populated results list feel a little immersion breaking?
I mean, the in-space anom brackets only show after the sensor has finished one "sweep", but the results window already knows everything. Feels very wrong to me and is a huge buff to ceptor pilots. Noticed the same thing, kind of kills the feeling of discovery. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 20:46:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Dragon Mnementh wrote:Dear CCP
as for now i managed today the first time to test that new probing an hacking to the end. Amd i am not a verry best friend of it. You ruined my actual gameplay to zero!!!!!!!!!!! i was on live servers scanning and probing, and my income is to find empty hidden belts magno and radar sites amd get them done.
So now every one see a hidden belt by entering a system ... so i never get a lonly hidden belt anymore and income is 0 i tested a low sec data site , scanned them out and tried to hack them. sure i got somthing but loot ? what the heck did the designer think? floating container that disapear in secons with loot. so my income is 0 again.
so my first try is verry frustrating
and when there will be no changes i will manage to cancel my account.
this is not what i whant tp play
i whants to get a nice evening with my friends play like i was played before these changes and get a chance to get some loot and income, now i will have a chatsystem with an avatar and no income anymore
Welsome to the lifeof a non-blobber in EVE. Take a ticket, the line of people whose hobbies have been ruined by CCP's blatant disregard for non-supercorp intersts makes more people join the ragequit queue by the hour. |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 20:54:00 -
[1447] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
The coming changes in Odyssey will make null sec mining no longer Viable for me. I will not join one of the massive blocks of null sec just to get access to space that is safe enough to mine in, I will just stop mining. And now exploring will be pointless as sites are so easy to find there will not be enough to go around and my income from them will drop significantly. I have gotten bored with mining and manufacturing in high sec, yet I can not move to null without joining a coalition that will dictate to me how to play, and what to do when I am logged in.
The big attraction of EVE for me is the sand box. I make my own gameplay, and play the way I want. These changes have made my chosen gameplay no longer viable, instead you promote ganking, and make ganking even easier than it is now. Ganking is the most common activity in every PVP MMO I have ever played, It does not need help, it will continue strong even if you try to curb it. If you encourage ganking, the gankers will eventually drive all the non-gankers from the game. What will happen to EVE when there is nobody left in the game but gankers? The same that happens to every other MMO, the gankers will move on to a new game and the game and there will be nobody left. It happened in Diablo, It happened in SWG, It happened in AOC, please do not let it happen in EVE.
CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.
|
Zircon Dasher
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 21:00:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
The coming changes in Odyssey will make null sec mining no longer Viable for me. I will not join one of the massive blocks of null sec just to get access to space that is safe enough to mine in, I will just stop mining. And now exploring will be pointless as sites are so easy to find there will not be enough to go around and my income from them will drop significantly. I have gotten bored with mining and manufacturing in high sec, yet I can not move to null without joining a coalition that will dictate to me how to play, and what to do when I am logged in.
The big attraction of EVE for me is the sand box. I make my own gameplay, and play the way I want. These changes have made my chosen gameplay no longer viable, instead you promote ganking, and make ganking even easier than it is now. Ganking is the most common activity in every PVP MMO I have ever played, It does not need help, it will continue strong even if you try to curb it. If you encourage ganking, the gankers will eventually drive all the non-gankers from the game. What will happen to EVE when there is nobody left in the game but gankers? The same that happens to every other MMO, the gankers will move on to a new game and the game and there will be nobody left. It happened in Diablo, It happened in SWG, It happened in AOC, please do not let it happen in EVE.
CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.
Plz contract all stuff to me Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
190
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 01:08:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.
(off-topic) If you've got a problem with CSM being entirely composed of nullsec candidates, then vote. Get your friends to vote. Get your enemies to vote. Get their friends and their enemies to vote.
The only reason nullsec consistently dominates CSM is because most nullsec residents vote and most highsec residents do not. Lowsec residents aren't nearly as numerous as either of the other two, so we'll ignore them for now. "It's bad ISK/hr to vote" "It's just a publicity stunt" "The CSM doesn't listen to us" "CCP doesn't obey them so why care?" are all.. ahem ..bad excuses.
Blast and damnation! Vote, highsec! Even if it's for a potted plant! (/off-topic)
Returning to a more on-topic note.. please. Miners will continue to mine. It will just happen that the more adventurous ones will make better money (or not, if they aren't paying attention) and the lazy, fat, sloppy ones will continue to make terrible money and be cantankerous self-entitled jerks that nobody can stand to be within 3LY of.
---
What I actually came here to say was that it would appear returning probes manually via the "Recall Probes" button actually results in a near-instant (or possibly instant) recall of the probes. So much for the business of "you have to wait for probes to return, so instant recall on jump is immersion-breaking".
Except their cheapo Hobgoblin Is. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
67
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 10:23:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.
ccp i still wait for your answer !!!..
If you screw all LG virtue implants owners with the new upcoming nerfs i like to get an reimbursement of my isk spend for them at least... or let me them unplug and sell them to people who might think they still need them , as i think they wont make a difference now if you have mods.
or think about how something to change to kg virtue implants so that they keep their values |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
190
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 10:43:00 -
[1451] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods. ccp i still wait for your answer !!!.. If you screw all LG virtue implants owners with the new upcoming nerfs i like to get an reimbursement of my isk spend for them at least... or let me them unplug and sell them to people who might think they still need them , as i think they wont make a difference now if you have mods. or think about how something to change to kg virtue implants so that they keep their values
No to getting your ISK back.
No to unplugging them.
Everything in EVE is subject to change. You should not log in if you can't handle this fact.
They'll still be useful in letting you scan faster than people who don't have them, just as they always have done.
Whine, moan and cry less. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
67
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:45:00 -
[1452] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
They'll still be useful in letting you scan faster than people who don't have them, just as they always have done.
Whine, moan and cry less.
please show me practicly were they help you now beeing at scanning faster ?
now that the get the 100 % hits easier then ever . with the mods now and scanning results easier to get then ever, i doubt that having a lg virtue plugged in will help me to get my results in less scans. I really think that id doesnmatter anymore more having them.
if i get my 100 % allways with 3 scans with or without lg virtue , how does that make my scanning faster. they would give me an edge if i need one scan less |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
219
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 12:51:00 -
[1453] - Quote
This started out as an extremely snarky, unhelpful, post, but I decided I'd probably be better off making something more structured.
Auto-Recalling and Teleporting Probes.
Quote:The recall and expire options have been changed a bit GÇô recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead... No more forsaken probes in space!
I'm going to attempt to sum up why I think just about everything in that quote is a terrible change.
Consequences
EVE is not a game that holds your hand, it is not a game that lets you get away with making mistakes, quite the contrary, making mistakes in EVE often results if you being beaten into the ground. EVE does not prevent you from burning out your modules when you overheat them to dangerous levels, EVE does not turn on your hardeners for you when you begin taking fire, EVE does not prevent you from jumping your Titan into the middle of hostile space instead of creating a bridge for your fleet, EVE does not teleport your drones into your drone bay should you either forget to recall them or are forced to leave without them.
You made that mistake or choice, and you live with the consequences, be it burnt out guns, a destroyed ship, billions in assets lost, or having to buy new drones.
Yet, EVE will now actively step in and prevent you from making the mistake of forgetting your probes by having them teleport into your cargo hold.
This means you will never realise 5 jumps later that you've lost all your probes and have to go buy new ones from someone who either produced them or purchased them from the Sisters of EVE (or both.) This means that you will never go into a wormhole, warp off somewhere and discover you have no probes (somehow people do this,) meaning you have to either make friends with the locals to arrange your safe departure or contact one of EVE's wormhole rescue groups.
By implementing auto-recalling probes on leaving the system, you are not only removing consequences, but removing interactions with other players.
I'm sure some people will say that it's just removing a tedious button click, but it's about as much of a tedious button click as recalling your drones or changing your ammunition to match your engagement range.
All of this can be applied to allowing your probes to expire because you weren't paying attention. Something I myself have actually done, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Immersion.
Probes have warp speeds, when they are deployed into space and sent out to scan for hostiles or signatures or what have you, we wait for them to warp into position before they begin their scan cycle. When we reposition them, we wait for them to warp to their new designated positions.
Why do we have to do this if they apparently posess the ability of teleportation? Of course the answer is that teleporting combat probes would be hidiously imbalanced, but hey, it's there, we know that they warp around. Personally after watching their little dots move around on the star map so many times, I find the teleporting probes as jarring as it would be to have my slow-ass Ogres sitting 80km away from me suddenly teleport into my drone bay because I recalled them or initiated warp. Why did I have to wait for them to fly over there in the first place?!
Forsaken Probes in space
This one isn't so much a problem so much as potential, I had an interesting, if lengthy discussion on twitter some days ago involving a number of people. One of the points raised was that unlike abandoned drones, you can't do anything with abandoned probes in your system. I'd like to see that changed.
I'd like to be able to probe down forgotten probes (or probes left behind for tactical reasons,) and recover them. Waste not, want not, after all.
Or what if I could scan down and hack into probes left in tactical positions by a hostile while he's gone and sabotage them to fly back to his ship and blow up when he reconnects to them? (That's a pie in the sky idea, it's probably not doable, but it'd be pretty damn cool.)
That got me thinking of what about active probes? What if I could probe down active probes and hack them to either shut them down or mess with a hostile probing ship's scanners who is likely sitting somewhere far off cloaked and can't be impeded otherwise.
Probes in space actually have some interesting design posibilities, and I'd hate to see them invalidated because some people finding hitting a recall probes button and waiting 2~3 seconds for your probes to return and dock unbearable.
Hope this helps. |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 01:16:00 -
[1454] - Quote
I can see the direction this is going....
You refit your Tengu with HAMs instead of heavies but fail to change the missiles in your cargo hold. Aura politely informs you of this before you can undock.
You accept a mission against Guristas but you hardeners are geared for another faction. Aura informs you of this fact as you accept the mission.
You are mining in a belt and when you have a full ore hold you go to warp back to the station. Aura automatically recalls your drones for you.
You are mining in hisec shooting scour diet with your T2 strips when you pop the last scordite rock. You target the plag next and you hit the fire button on your laser. Aura intervenes and gives you a dialog asking if you are sure you want to shoot the rock with the wrong crystal.
There are all kinds of stupid mistakes that I have made in EVE. Part of the fun of this game is taking consequences for our mistakes . Automatically recalling probes is simply a dumbing down of what has been a demanding game environment. If this continues, I can find other ways to waste my time and money. "Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
doomshadow
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 05:51:00 -
[1455] - Quote
I do not want to know whats in space i want to find it. That is what exploring is. I do not want to spent 5 mins chasing cans of garbage, while i get caught by someone who now can find me much easier. Banning ships from high sec sites? seriously? If you want this to be WOW, go for it! After 10 years of playing and Beta testing EVE, I am out...this is garbage...seriously. |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
223
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 12:32:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:Slippery slope argument
I don't quite see that happening, but I do think the auto-recalling probes change is being treated far too flippantly. |
Tanguy Garcin
Commonwealth-Intersolaire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.02 12:46:00 -
[1457] - Quote
Someone know if CCP's Dev answer about T3's banishment from DED 4/10 site ?
Dreaming it's a joke, cause thinking I loose millions SP to skill a now useless ship, and have to spend time in future to skill an other competitive ship for doing what i like to do in this game and so, loosing time again ... is a terribly feeling .
Why don't rebalance site ? it's already hard to run a DED site cause they are lot off other explorer in high sec, and DED site are looting worst item than 1years before.
You're aware that we are many more capsuler in this game, cause you buff up mineral in asteroid belt, but you make exploration less difficult and less rentable ??
We need more thing, more site, more space to explore ! we don't need else change ! this summer expansion is the worst i ever see in this game, cause me for the first time, to think it should be the time to close my 3 account and play an other game .
Eve is great, why searching to kill them in making them a WOW-like difficult gameplay ??
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
219
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 09:49:00 -
[1458] - Quote
It is absolutely not a joke. CCP Fozzie confirmed and explained it himself on the recent CCP streams. You can find them on CCP's twitch channel.
I agree with T3s being excluded from 3/10s, but excluding them from 4/10s is a bit much. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1117
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 10:00:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:It is absolutely not a joke. CCP Fozzie confirmed and explained it himself on the recent CCP streams. You can find them on CCP's twitch channel.
I agree with T3s being excluded from 3/10s, but excluding them from 4/10s is a bit much. I agree it is too much to remove them from 4/10s as well. Its like looking at a bush that is growing wild and out of control, you have the hedge clippers in your hands and think I can trim this up and make it better (remove them from 3/10s) but instead you just cut the whole bush out (remove from 4/10s also). Ideas for Drone Improvement-á |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
240
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 16:00:00 -
[1460] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Roime wrote:You think moving the formation on top of yourself is going to make difference?
It adds a few seconds to combat probing and doesn't solve the issue of on-grid probing, but adds tedium to normal use.
Auto-recall of probes has been unanimously rejected, will you consider leaving that out of Odyssey? We have been discussing the point so far, and we are making one change.
- Deactivating probes will not cause them to auto-recall. (When jumping, or logging off etc)
We're still reading up and discussing other points however. Will the probes still auto-recall under some situations or is it an across the board change that they have to be manually recalled?
I figured this change meant it was sweeping, but I read differently just now, and I want to make sure. Please tell me it's across-the-board and that you haven't introduced magic into the game.
|
|
Hellusius
Siesta Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 16:54:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Raven Solaris wrote:This started out as an extremely snarky, unhelpful, post, but I decided I'd probably be better off making something more structured. Auto-Recalling and Teleporting Probes.Quote:The recall and expire options have been changed a bit GÇô recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead... No more forsaken probes in space! I'm going to attempt to sum up why I think just about everything in that quote is a terrible change. ConsequencesEVE is not a game that holds your hand, it is not a game that lets you get away with making mistakes, quite the contrary, making mistakes in EVE often results in you being beaten into the ground. EVE does not prevent you from burning out your modules when you overheat them to dangerous levels, EVE does not turn on your hardeners for you when you begin taking fire, EVE does not prevent you from jumping your Titan into the middle of hostile space instead of creating a bridge for your fleet, EVE does not teleport your drones into your drone bay should you either forget to recall them or are forced to leave without them. You made that mistake or choice, and you live with the consequences, be it burnt out guns, a destroyed ship, billions in assets lost, or having to buy new drones. Yet, EVE will now actively step in and prevent you from making the mistake of forgetting your probes by having them teleport into your cargo hold. This means you will never realise 5 jumps later that you've lost all your probes and have to go buy new ones from someone who either produced them or purchased them from the Sisters of EVE (or both.) This means that you will never go into a wormhole, warp off somewhere and discover you have no probes (somehow people do this,) meaning you have to either make friends with the locals to arrange your safe departure or contact one of EVE's wormhole rescue groups. By implementing auto-recalling probes on leaving the system, you are not only removing consequences, but removing interactions with other players. I'm sure some people will say that it's just removing a tedious button click, but it's about as much of a tedious button click as recalling your drones or changing your ammunition to match your engagement range. All of this can be applied to allowing your probes to expire because you weren't paying attention. Something I myself have actually done, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Immersion.Probes have warp speeds, when they are deployed into space and sent out to scan for hostiles or signatures or what have you, we wait for them to warp into position before they begin their scan cycle. When we reposition them, we wait for them to warp to their new designated positions. Why do we have to do this if they apparently posess the ability of teleportation? Of course the answer is that teleporting combat probes would be hidiously imbalanced, but hey, it's there, we know that they warp around. Personally after watching their little dots move around on the star map so many times, I find the teleporting probes as jarring as it would be to have my slow-ass Ogres sitting 80km away from me suddenly teleport into my drone bay because I recalled them or initiated warp. Why did I have to wait for them to fly over there in the first place?! Forsaken Probes in spaceThis one isn't so much a problem so much as potential, I had an interesting, if lengthy discussion on twitter some days ago involving a number of people. One of the points raised was that unlike abandoned drones, you can't do anything with abandoned probes in your system. I'd like to see that changed. I'd like to be able to probe down forgotten probes (or probes left behind for tactical reasons,) and recover them. Waste not, want not, after all. Or what if I could scan down and hack into probes left in tactical positions by a hostile while he's gone and sabotage them to fly back to his ship and blow up when he reconnects to them? (That's a pie in the sky idea, it's probably not doable, but it'd be pretty damn cool.) That got me thinking of what about active probes? What if I could probe down active probes and hack them to either shut them down or mess with a hostile probing ship's scanners who is likely sitting somewhere far off cloaked and can't be impeded otherwise. Probes in space actually have some interesting design posibilities, and I'd hate to see them invalidated because some people find hitting a recall probes button and waiting 2~3 seconds for your probes to return and dock unbearable. Hope this helps.
I agree. I understand you want to welcome newer players, however "learning by making mistakes" is one of EVE's magical assets in my oppinion. Not to mention it's not a drastical loss ISK wise when you do forget your probes or they expire.
Additional note to those in the quote. The probe market will change, resulting in lesser profit margins for sister probes. Therefor a lesser intrest for Sisters of EVE missions (Advised by you guys to newer players when they want to get into missioning/combat).
|
Zorok
The Guardian Knights
31
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 17:05:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Returning to a more on-topic note.. please. Miners will continue to mine. It will just happen that the more adventurous ones will make better money (or not, if they aren't paying attention) and the lazy, fat, sloppy ones will continue to make terrible money and be cantankerous self-entitled jerks that nobody can stand to be within 3LY of.
I will probably stop mining myself. I used to ninja mine in wormholes because low-sec is too dangerous for mining in general. After this next patch, the only viable income will be from PI, Moon mining, and running missions. Trying to ninja mine in wormholes is already pretty dangerous as it is, this new patch makes the idea pure suicide. |
S'No Flake
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 18:11:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Tanguy Garcin wrote:Someone know if CCP's Dev answer about T3's banishment from DED 4/10 site ?
Dreaming it's a joke, cause thinking I loose millions SP to skill a now useless ship, and have to spend time in future to skill an other competitive ship for doing what i like to do in this game and so, loosing time again ... is a terribly feeling .
Why don't rebalance site ? it's already hard to run a DED site cause they are lot off other explorer in high sec, and DED site are looting worst item than 1years before.
You're aware that we are many more capsuler in this game, cause you buff up mineral in asteroid belt, but you make exploration less difficult and less rentable ??
We need more thing, more site, more space to explore ! we don't need else change ! this summer expansion is the worst i ever see in this game, cause me for the first time, to think it should be the time to close my 3 account and play an other game .
Eve is great, why searching to kill them in making them a WOW-like difficult gameplay ??
You can always use a HAC or a pirate cruiser if T3s are banned. You won't loose much... is not like HS 3/10 and 4/10 are very difficult :) |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 20:20:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Haven't tested this this week but last week, after the scanner runs and picks something up, clicking on one of the results (signature, anomaly, etc) does not pan the camera around.
Everywhere else you click (d-scan, overview, in space) pans the camera and points it to the selected object. Selecting a signature or anomaly should do the same thing.
Is this something that was left out on purpose? |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 21:22:00 -
[1465] - Quote
FFS, let probes die, are CCP brain dead, have they forgotten HTFU, or has eve suddenly become here havz an i winz button, we know stupid people make the best targets, lets fill our kill-boards with idiot fits cos were 1337 combat Carebears or do they want to play EvE. The probe market just died, its even worse than NPC buy orders, anyone just has run one of the 12 tutorials available and you got 10, so free replacements when required if your in high sec.
Also Known Space suddenly appearing in worm holes, you could have thought out a story line that says the gate/station communicates sig positions on appearance in space, the on-board just has to remember in the ships DataBase.
Honestly the amount of fail is strong in Ody
PS. move the login with stream button to be on same line as login button, it saves miss clicks and looks better. CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
Tanguy Garcin
Commonwealth-Intersolaire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:21:00 -
[1466] - Quote
S'No Flake wrote:Tanguy Garcin wrote:Someone know if CCP's Dev answer about T3's banishment from DED 4/10 site ?
Dreaming it's a joke, cause thinking I loose millions SP to skill a now useless ship, and have to spend time in future to skill an other competitive ship for doing what i like to do in this game and so, loosing time again ... is a terribly feeling .
Why don't rebalance site ? it's already hard to run a DED site cause they are lot off other explorer in high sec, and DED site are looting worst item than 1years before.
You're aware that we are many more capsuler in this game, cause you buff up mineral in asteroid belt, but you make exploration less difficult and less rentable ??
We need more thing, more site, more space to explore ! we don't need else change ! this summer expansion is the worst i ever see in this game, cause me for the first time, to think it should be the time to close my 3 account and play an other game .
Eve is great, why searching to kill them in making them a WOW-like difficult gameplay ??
You can always use a HAC or a pirate cruiser if T3s are banned. You won't loose much... is not like HS 3/10 and 4/10 are very difficult :)
I know that, just remind that for HAC and T3; it's not the same skill, some of my corpmate who spend time to skill t3s ship have now to skill an other ship, during this time, they have to let there best ship they have in station, and fly on a less competitive ship, causing a disadvantageous position against a HAC pilot .
So, they loosing time, they get less Isk during this period and have to spend ISK on other skill and ship.
CCP always said " if you can fly a ship, you still fly on it after an expansion" but you can't fly with in the same place as before. so, I prefer to have a possibility of reattribute the skill points i spend in a ship, to skill a another ship, cause I still have the same goal, but can't continuing to fly the ship I skilled for. |
Tommassino Preldent
SON OF RAVANA Dominatus Atrum Mortis
14
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 15:02:00 -
[1467] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote: Regarding removing the DSP GÇô the DSP basically allowed people to quickly get a picture of everything in the system (including ships), in a kind of a GÇ£cheatingGÇ¥ way as it didnGÇÖt really use the probe scan system (no triangulation or anything). This and the heavy overlap with the Sensor Overlay system made us decide to remove them. There are other ways to find/track ships in systems; apart from the D-Scan, there are also the combat probes, which really are there to do what the DSP just did better. I should mention that weGÇÖre adjusting the sweep formation to not have any gaps.
I was greatly excited for the new Sensor Overlay system when i checked it out on SiSi as it did in fact replace DSP, giving more power to new players that previously didnt know this method to be able to use it more easily. However I was very much disappointed when I logged in today in my WH and found out, that the since my last visit on Sisi the sensor overlay no longer gives any signal strength data.
This is a HUGE nerf to w-space and I'm not sure if you guy realize this. Scanning down chains and chains of WH's full of signatures made the DSP method in WH's prevalent and DSP cannot be replaced by combat probes... seriously 64AU is not enough. I hope you will look into this and reconsider the decision you made to remove the signal strength from the scan overlay. If you think it is cheating, so be it, but this change might impact w-space in a very bad way. |
Victor Helion
Helion Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 16:23:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Why are we not able to resize or hide columns on the probe results tab? It's not very useful when the type column is so tiny that nothing but "Guristas" shows up unless I stretch the window across my entire monitor. |
Beliar Gray
Alpha Sleepers
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 00:06:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Doublepost. |
Beliar Gray
Alpha Sleepers
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 00:06:00 -
[1470] - Quote
Quote: Scan Acquisition Array
Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII
Scan Rangefinding Array
Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII
Scan Pinpointing Array
Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II
Why were the bonuses of those modules nerfed so harshly? How did I miss that?
50% nerf is uncalled for.
Look at items sold graph for t2 modules, 14 sold in 2 days in Jita.
Nobody wants those modules anymore when they are so crap. Going from one extreme to another, where is the bloody middle ground.
Please... |
|
Chebri
Fluffy Pillow Fort
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 01:34:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Greetings,
There could be a hiccup in the probe auto-return feature.
I'd gone afk in space under the impression that the probes would return to cargo when the timer ran out. That did not happen.
I was cloaked and apparently the probes were unable to find me. They did not return. They were no longer in space. There were no disconnected drones to reconnect to. I lost 8 core Sister Probes. (Not that they are horribly expensive but that's annoying when patch notes don't line up with in-game play.)
Is it intended that the auto-return feature be broken when the ship is cloaked? If so, it seems rather silly since so many explorers use cloaky ships.
Many thanks o7 |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 06:35:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Chebri wrote:Greetings,
There could be a hiccup in the probe auto-return feature.
I'd gone afk in space under the impression that the probes would return to cargo when the timer ran out. That did not happen.
I was cloaked and apparently the probes were unable to find me. They did not return. They were no longer in space. There were no disconnected drones to reconnect to. I lost 8 core Sister Probes. (Not that they are horribly expensive but that's annoying when patch notes don't line up with in-game play.)
Is it intended that the auto-return feature be broken when the ship is cloaked? If so, it seems rather silly since so many explorers use cloaky ships.
Many thanks o7
Grinning like a madman.
It's not hard to hit the recall button, go buy more probes. |
Victor Helion
Helion Ventures
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 16:45:00 -
[1473] - Quote
Beliar Gray wrote:Quote: Scan Acquisition Array
Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII
Scan Rangefinding Array
Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII
Scan Pinpointing Array
Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II
Why were the bonuses of those modules nerfed so harshly? How did I miss that? 50% nerf is uncalled for. Look at items sold graph for t2 modules, 14 sold in 2 days in Jita. Nobody wants those modules anymore when they are so crap. Going from one extreme to another, where is the bloody middle ground. Please...
The reason why there are 14 sold in 2 days is because they require materials from data sites to build (spatial attunement arrays) and availability of these parts in Jita is quite low at the moment. Once a steady supply appears market volume will start to catch up.
The T1 versions have already sold thousands of units, they are hardly unpopular modules. |
Space Wanderer
96
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:00:00 -
[1474] - Quote
Beliar Gray wrote:Why were the bonuses of those modules nerfed so harshly? How did I miss that?
50% nerf is uncalled for.
Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.
1) The modules for deviation still allow to peform 2-cycles scans from 8AU to 0.25AU.
2) The modules for scan strength almost allow to scan "unscannable" ships without using virtue implants.
They are still incredibly powerful, and before the changes their stats were simply crazy.
|
Martin Gregor
DRUCKWELLE Evolution The Initiative.
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 00:34:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Chebri wrote:Greetings,
There could be a hiccup in the probe auto-return feature.
I'd gone afk in space under the impression that the probes would return to cargo when the timer ran out. That did not happen.
I was cloaked and apparently the probes were unable to find me. They did not return. They were no longer in space. There were no disconnected drones to reconnect to. I lost 8 core Sister Probes. (Not that they are horribly expensive but that's annoying when patch notes don't line up with in-game play.)
Is it intended that the auto-return feature be broken when the ship is cloaked? If so, it seems rather silly since so many explorers use cloaky ships.
Many thanks o7
It seems to be broken, lost a full rss set to this :( |
Laura Gannon
EDGE Alliance Holding EDGE Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:43:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Roime wrote:This is a heavy buff to combat probing in general, especially in wormholes. Exposure time for launching probes was cut under dscan (you can launch your whole set simultaneous when breaking gate cloak, you're only exposed for one flash), probe strengths went thru the roof, signatures are pinpointed for you on your screen so there's no mucking around with dscan.
Good combat probers become lethal, getting 100% lock on someone while under jump cloak will be easy, making sites as unsafe as anoms.
Not sure if this was intentional, but it doesn't make PVE more accessible to new players outside hisec.
It was intentional on the part of CCP who are still on this blind rampage in favor of PvP whores.
There stated intention was to manipulate the game to FORCE players to interact more, oddly when they tried it by Nerfing Jump bridges in 0.0 it had the exact opposite effect.
Now your average ganker is whining about the fact that players 'Turtle' up in systems and they cannot get at them, so they clamor for Local to be removed so they can kill miners and ratters without the problems caused by them being seen coming, will not happen, players will just stop mining and ratting and CCP's destruction of 0.0 life will be completed.
Currently, apart from the intrepid and brave souls trying to gank other players, the vast majority of 0.0 space is utterly under utilized, Ice systems have there belts cleaned out in a couple of hours and are then deserted, Peeps still chase these mediocre mini games, but I can see that getting very boring very quickly for most, particularly when they find there ship blown away while engaged in that mad click fest a few times.
CCP control the content of the game and always have, but on the other hand have always been frustrated in there efforts to gently dumb it down because of the ingenuity of the players to make best use of whats available to continue as before, a reverse sandbox effect maybe at work here, In my opinion to avoid past mistakes, CCP has now chosen the shotgun method by crippling most aspects of the game down to the level of the average four years old to manage and in the process taken what was the essence of EVE away, it's complex nature was what made it worth playing.
Time will tell what effect this will have but for the most part nothing good will come of this thought process, flashy lights and silly games is not and was never what EVE was all about. |
Lolmer
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
108
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 06:06:00 -
[1477] - Quote
From http://www.minerbumping.com/2013/06/report-from-front-ore-anomalies.html is exactly why Gravimetric/Ore Sites to Anomalies is an anti-exploration expansion feature.
http://www.minerbumping.com/2013/06/report-from-front-ore-anomalies.html wrote:Of all the times I've probed in high sec (which is not very much), I have never seen a Hedbergite, Hemorphite and Jaspet deposit site, especially a large site. Pre-Odyssey these sites used to be hidden away only to be discovered by probing them down. That takes time and whole lot of patience, something the average miner does not have. So I had to check it out.
It's now no longer exploration, just show up and voila, bacon. |
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
225
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 09:48:00 -
[1478] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Please note these are not the most effecient formations you can make, we still want players to learn how to make more effecient formations. And how exactly is this being promoted when we are forced to launch the maximum number of probes and only in fixed formations?
When fixed formations were announced I expected them to be an option not mandatory. |
Sojenus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:37:00 -
[1479] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
So is this no longer a thing that's happening? I'm pretty sure they were 8x, 5x, and 5x before, and still seem to be. |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
146
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:39:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Sojenus wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:
- Reduced the per level modifier for Astrometrics Rangefinding, Astrometrics Acquisition and Astrometrics pinpointing by half.
So is this no longer a thing that's happening? I'm pretty sure they were 8x, 5x, and 5x before, and still seem to be.
That refers to the %-Bonus. 10% -> 5% per level I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
|
Arbet Klallam
Democratic Peoples Republic of Crayola Insidious Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 12:29:00 -
[1481] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
The coming changes in Odyssey will make null sec mining no longer Viable for me. I will not join one of the massive blocks of null sec just to get access to space that is safe enough to mine in, I will just stop mining. And now exploring will be pointless as sites are so easy to find there will not be enough to go around and my income from them will drop significantly. I have gotten bored with mining and manufacturing in high sec, yet I can not move to null without joining a coalition that will dictate to me how to play, and what to do when I am logged in.
The big attraction of EVE for me is the sand box. I make my own gameplay, and play the way I want. These changes have made my chosen gameplay no longer viable, instead you promote ganking, and make ganking even easier than it is now. Ganking is the most common activity in every PVP MMO I have ever played, It does not need help, it will continue strong even if you try to curb it. If you encourage ganking, the gankers will eventually drive all the non-gankers from the game. What will happen to EVE when there is nobody left in the game but gankers? The same that happens to every other MMO, the gankers will move on to a new game and the game and there will be nobody left. It happened in Diablo, It happened in SWG, It happened in AOC, please do not let it happen in EVE.
CSM being composed of nothing but supercorp blocs and, even when they do want to contribute, being derailed by CCP is leading to the death of this game. Just look at how goonswarm plexed their toons for years by using a booster-Loyalty-Point exploit machine. CCP was either in on it or too supid to care. Either way, I'm only playing with one toon now, and if this game doesn't improve by XMas when my subscription expires, this'll be the last New Eden will see of Scuzzy Logic.
There're a million and one things to say in reply to this. But in the intrests of brevity; just quit now.
P.S. Do your reading before you make a statement.
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1195
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 13:52:00 -
[1482] - Quote
I have been exploring on TQ for a while now, just to get a feeling for the new system. here is my final opinion on the matter.
the new system does not deserve the name 'exploration'. here are some reasons why: - there is no great unknown. the system scanner shows you what the system has to offer like the 'actress' in a cheap porno movie. - everybody and their dog is doing it. there is hardly any system without a set of probes in it. it was bad before, now it's ludicrous. - mistakes do not matter. sloppy play is not punished. there is literally no way to forget your probes. if you fail at hacking, you have at least one second try. you can drop probes while cloaked etc. etc. - since it's easy and everyone is doing it, the income has become low and steady. the very opposite of what one would expect. . . .
compare that to what the word 'exploration' actually means in real life. think of christopher columbus, vasco da gama, neil armstrong. the new system is a nice casual minigame to waste some time on. like angry birds of fruit ninja. but exploration it is not.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Shock
Interim Industries
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 11:15:00 -
[1483] - Quote
CCP makes the mistake of forgetting that 'exploration' should be a heavily player-skill dependent profession.
Adding more and more convenience, thoroughly kills off any value of player skill. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
395
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 14:57:00 -
[1484] - Quote
I've been saying for quite a while now that "Exploration" is a misnomer and what we do should be called "Treasure Hunting".
Anyway..
Probe scanning was already ridiculously easy and didn't require much in the way of player skill. Removing the requirement that you fight against the UI in order to do it simply reveals the true easiness for everyone to see.
|
Space Wanderer
112
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 15:01:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Probe scanning was already ridiculously easy and didn't require much in the way of player skill. Removing the requirement that you fight against the UI in order to do it simply reveals the true easiness for everyone to see.
Gotta agree with that. I have been saying that since Apochrypha beta.... |
Shock
Interim Industries
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 15:26:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I've been saying for quite a while now that "Exploration" is a misnomer and what we do should be called "Treasure Hunting".
Anyway..
Probe scanning was already ridiculously easy and didn't require much in the way of player skill. Removing the requirement that you fight against the UI in order to do it simply reveals the true easiness for everyone to see.
However, playerskill isn't just whether or not a player can perform a task, but also how efficient. Efficiency meant a lot for bot exploration and combat probing. Now there is hardly any difference anymore. |
Thenoran
Tranquility Industries
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 20:55:00 -
[1487] - Quote
As much as I do like the shiny new UI and how it is all presented, it is just too easy. Exploration can no longer be called a profession if everyone and their dog can do it with 0 time or skill invested into it.
Hell, I remember the original exploration system before Apocrypha/Trinity with Magnetometric/Ladar/Radar/Gravimetric probes with various radiuses in Quest probes and Sift probes. You would spend literal HOURS tracking down a hard Gravimetric site (and in those days, I did). Sure it was painstackingly hard but every skill level put into exploration was worth it and if you finally found that site, you'd often be the only one for hours. Patience was somewhat of a required skill back then.
Now granted, that exploration system was archaic at best and even getting a signature at all was chance based and each scan took several minutes (each level of an 8x skill removed a minute or so, starting at 10 minutes with a regular launcher). On top of that, you had SEPARATE probes for each site type (Magnetometric/Ladar/Radar/Gravimetric) and SEPARATE probes for each radius (which was 0.5 AU, 1 AU, 2 AU and 4 AU if I recall), you also could not get your probes back so you had to stack about 10 to 20 of each type and combination for each trip (I usually did about 6-7 systems in a trip). You had a separate system wide multispectrum probe to see if anything was in the system to begin with.
It was also NOT possible to move your probes. You had to create individually WELL placed bookmarks during warps between celestials to get good coverage of a solar system. Some systems were painfully hard to get good coverage on with your probes as they could not overlap with each other (only their scan ranges could overlap, but Probe A itself could not be within the scan range of Probe B). I still have like 300-400 of such bookmarks gathering dust.
BUT, having a Buzzard with level V skills, scan strength rigs, faction probe launcher and faction probes was actually worth something. You could find sites other players simply did not have enough scan strength for and your scan time was about 3-4 minutes with good skills and equipment. Large Gravimetric sites were infamous for being hard to find.
As such for me it took usually anywhere between 40 minutes to an hour or two to scan down the harder gravimetric site (not THE hardest though as those could take hours) and most radar/magnetometric sites took 20 to 40 minutes.
And then when you finally found it, bookmarked it, switched ships and got the goodies, IT WAS WORTH IT. Even then there was competition and seeing another pilot's probes on your scanner meant you had to hurry and this was one area where skill and time invested (such as having good bookmarks) made all the difference.
Right now, having that Buzzard and all that time and effort invested into Exploration feels like a complete and total waste. Anyone can grab a Gnosis, fit a Probe Launcher with just lvl I - III skills and find nearly anything. And then they can do that site with that same ship, with the same lvl I - III skills and run it all just like that. Only combat sites could provide a combat challenge depending on its level (but you've already found it).
If there was a clear distinction between easy sites and hard sites, I would've been completely fine with all of that. The easy sites for the newer 'explorers' (cant really call them that yet) and the harder sites for those who actually put time and effort into it.
The harder sites should simply have a minimum amount of accuracy and scan strength required before you can narrow them down. If a new player cant get 100% on a site, have Aura give them a message stating they'll have to invest into exploration skills if they want to narrow that sucker down.
And Cosmic Anomalies should still require SOME effort. You are providing those same Large Gravimetric sites to miners with 0 exploration skills for FREE. They literally don't even need a Probe Launcher or need to have touched this new 'Exploration' of yours. If I tell you there is a 100m3 gold cube in an alley somewhere, you can hardly call it 'exploring' if you then go there and claim the damn thing. If it were buried into the ground for half a mile and you had to scan it down from scratch, then it is called exploring. The new scanning overlay should only appear if you have a Probe Launcher fitted, how is it Exploration without scanning?
And honestly, add some really hard to find sites that require a lot of scan strength. I know it may come over as elitist or whatever but I really do miss the old feeling that Exploration was unique and not for every player. Not everyone did it, not everyone wanted to do it and not everyone had the patience for it. Deciding to invest into it was a decision I made because I liked doing something different that wasn't mining or shooting rats in a lvl 4 mission for the unteenth time.
It could reward you with a nice faction item in the best case, or just some random loot and scenery in the worst case. It was a lottery but one where the odds were decent enough that you'd keep trying. Back then it was a bit underdeveloped and I once went so far to spend about nine hours scanning down a Large Gravimetric site. I did eventually find it and despite several probes from other explorers over the following three days, no one else ever scanned it down which did feel pretty nice at the time.
Again, I have no problem making Exploration more available for newer players, but right now...there is no Exploration. There is fitting a Probe Launcher to your [any ship] and you're all set.
For easy to find stuff that's acceptable, but I really have to ask you guys; What is my Buzzard with lvl V exploration skills and faction launcher + probes worth at the moment? Did I waste time training that Astrometric (8x) skill to level V? Would I be better off just folding and getting a Gnosis myself and leave my Buzzard purely to finding ships? |
Theminster
Winds of Dawn Kraken.
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 16:14:00 -
[1488] - Quote
That last post was very well written and thats the probing system I miss BADLY, I to remember that era and trained everything to lvl5 which is now a total waste but CCP dont really care about that because they have had my cash already for all that time I seemed to have wasted.
|
Balder Verdandi
Czerka. WHY so Seri0Us
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 11:18:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Looking over these posts, I have to agree with the two before mine.
With these changes, it's almost as if CCP wants us to get away from single player altogether and shift Eve strictly into "MMO mode" only ..... or idiot proof scanning, just depends on the way you look at it.
Which is sad ...... since there are some things in the game that are truly single player only or justified having your skills maxed out.
Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"! Player Owned Station fix dated back to 2006!
|
Temba Ronin
241
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 17:27:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Balder Verdandi wrote:Looking over these posts, I have to agree with the two before mine.
With these changes, it's almost as if CCP wants us to get away from single player altogether and shift Eve strictly into "MMO mode" only ..... or idiot proof scanning, just depends on the way you look at it.
Which is sad ...... since there are some things in the game that are truly single player only or justified having your skills maxed out.
I think you have hit the nail on the head here, CCP so despises single player mode they do all that is possible to stomp it out whenever it rears it's ugly head.
Without realizing it they are devaluing specialists within corp structures, the "Solo" player who had the maxed out skills to scan down the best sites so the other specialists in mining our combat could then sweep in and gather the goodies is being disenfranchised.
The path of EVE seems to have been in the past, if you wanted more rewards you needed to take greater risks and train better skills to better equip your clone and ships. You could only train so many things so fast so naturally you sought out other like minded players to help find and or gather/ make the stuff you all wanted.
One on one recruitment use to start with offering fleet mining boosts to other miners in the same highsec system you were mining in, or sharing scan info about DED complexes with other pilots you saw running sites while you were. Solo play leads to team play because each player feels they are bringing something of value to the table. Streamlining aka dumbing down everything undermines this. I hope CCP takes this into consideration.
Power To The Players! |
|
Flashrain
Vanguard Frontiers Black Legion.
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 00:10:00 -
[1491] - Quote
If not this iteration, then next.
Fleet Intel Skills
Short description: These skills allow scan data to propagate across the entire squad/wing/fleet, encouraging team work and multiple scan probe pilots working together.
Long description: Advances in probe scanning technology allow portions of scan data to update across allied vessels. More accurate data now automatically flow to the scanning window of approved capsuleers in your fleet. Fleet commanders can now finallly track opposing fleet movements in his (or her) solar system map. Multiple scan probe feeds from different pilots now automatically combine into a single data presentation in your scan window. Two or more scan probe pilots are now much more effective as a scout/hunting team.
- Skill scan probe pilots are still required to initiate the scan data.
Multiple scan probe feeds will update using color coded schema based on accuracy (red spheres > orange spheres> yellow spheres > green dots).
Multiple scan probe feeds will update using transparency coded overlay schema based on how old the scan data is (barely visible>translucent>opaque > solid)
This skill set may have two branches: 1. Skill affects data integrity - Initially 50% of data gets transmitted. A scan result of 100% solid green dot will show as translucent orange spheres on the receiver. At level 5, 100% of data gets transmitted. The receiver will see exactly what the scan probe pilot sees.
2. Skill affects data bandwidth - As level increases, queue length increases up geometrically at 1/5/10/20/40 ; 50/100/200/400. You can add entire squads /wings to the CC queue via drag and drop.
This feature can be turned off with one button within the scan window if you suspect spies within the ranks. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
549
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Posted - 2013.08.28 08:18:00 -
[1492] - Quote
Flashrain wrote:If not this iteration, then next. Fleet Intel SkillsShort description: These skills allow scan data to propagate across the entire squad/wing/fleet, encouraging team work and multiple scan probe pilots working together. Long description: Advances in probe scanning technology allow portions of scan data to update across allied vessels. More accurate data now automatically flow to the scanning window of approved capsuleers in your fleet. Fleet commanders can now finallly track opposing fleet movements in his (or her) solar system map. Multiple scan probe feeds from different pilots now automatically combine into a single data presentation in your scan window. Two or more scan probe pilots are now much more effective as a scout/hunting team.
- Skill scan probe pilots are still required to initiate the scan data.
Multiple scan probe feeds will update using color coded schema based on accuracy (red spheres > orange spheres> yellow spheres > green dots).
Multiple scan probe feeds will update using transparency coded overlay schema based on how old the scan data is (barely visible>translucent>opaque > solid)
This skill set may have two branches: 1. Skill affects data integrity - Initially 50% of data gets transmitted. A scan result of 100% solid green dot will show as translucent orange spheres on the receiver. At level 5, 100% of data gets transmitted. The receiver will see exactly what the scan probe pilot sees. 2. Skill affects data bandwidth - As level increases, queue length increases up geometrically at 1/5/10/20/40 ; 50/100/200/400. You can add entire squads /wings to the CC queue via drag and drop. This feature can be turned off with one button within the scan window if you suspect spies within the ranks.
I'm pretty sure you should post this into the Feature Ideas but... wow that's a very nice idea !
G££ <= Me |
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